"Book, Please": Alice Feiring on Escaping Rodney Alcala at 14 ("Tamron Hall", 2024)

Name: "Book, Please": Alice Feiring on Escaping Rodney Alcala at 14 ("Tamron Hall", 2024)
Uploaded: 2024-11-11T00:00:00Z
Duration: 12 min 28 s
Description: Journalist Alice Feiring tells Tamron Hall how, at 14 in 1969, she escaped a man calling himself John Berger, learned in 2010 that he was Rodney Alcala, and later visited him in prison. Alcala is heard for about 4 seconds, in a 1978 "Dating Game" clip.

Journalist Alice Feiring tells Tamron Hall how, at 14 in 1969, she escaped a man calling himself John Berger, learned in 2010 that he was Rodney Alcala, and later visited him in prison. Alcala is heard for about 4 seconds, in a 1978 "Dating Game" clip.

Subject: Rodney Alcala
Recorded: October 18, 2024
Runtime: 12:28

Content warning: A survivor's account of being lured by a serial killer as a 14-year-old girl; by her account he came out of a bathroom naked and reached for her as she escaped. No sexual assault is described. Mentions the murders of women and photographs he kept of victims.

The Interview

This is a 12-minute-28-second segment of the syndicated daytime talk show "Tamron Hall," posted by the program on November 11, 2024. Host Tamron Hall interviews Alice Feiring, a journalist and wine writer, in two parts either side of a commercial break. The segment opens with a short clip from Rodney Alcala's 1978 appearance on "The Dating Game," in which Alcala is heard for about 4 seconds. Everything else in the video is Hall and Feiring.

Historical Context

Rodney Alcala was a photographer who abducted, sexually assaulted and killed women and girls in California and New York in the 1960s and 1970s. In 1978 he appeared, and won, as a bachelor on "The Dating Game," which gave him his nickname. He was arrested in 1979, convicted in 2010 of five California murders and sentenced to death, and in December 2012 pleaded guilty in New York to the murders of Cornelia Crilley (1971) and Ellen Jane Hover (1977), for which he was sentenced on January 7, 2013, to 25 years to life. He used the aliases John Berger and John Burger. He died on July 24, 2021, while on California's condemned row.

Circumstances

Feiring's appearance was prompted by her essay in The Cut, which the host quotes as "Rodney Alcala did not kill me. 40 years later, I asked him why," and by renewed attention to the case after Anna Kendrick's Netflix film "Woman of the Hour" (2024).

What the Interview Covers

By Feiring's account, in April 1969, aged 14, she was in a bookstore buying a book by Albert Camus to replace one she had lost of her brother's when a man commented on it, followed her out and talked her into a photo session while her father was at the barber across the street. She refused to go into his apartment but agreed to the rooftop. He gave her a pack of Polaroids to look at ("This is my work"), went to the bathroom and came out naked. She got past a police lock she had never seen before and escaped as he reached for her, then went back to the door to ask for the book she had left: "I said, 'Book, please.'" She told her brother, who said, "Just don't tell Mom and Dad."

In 2010, she says, she saw a TV report of Alcala's death sentence and recognized the man she knew as John Berger. She attended his New York court proceedings, was encouraged by NYPD Detective Wendell Stradford (name as heard), and in 2013 visited Alcala at Rikers Island, where, she says, he did not remember her. She visited him again at San Quentin, partly because the detective hoped she might help find more victims. She closes with advice to parents: "Everybody looks like a human, but not everybody is a human."

What Makes the Recording Significant

It is a first-person account, by a woman who was then a child, of an encounter with Alcala in New York in 1969, from a period of his life that is less documented than the crimes he was convicted of, together with her description of visiting him in prison.

Archival Importance

A segment from the program's own upload.

Important Caveats

Alcala is heard only in the 4-second "Dating Game" clip; do not describe the page as Alcala speaking. The 1969 encounter, the prison visits and the detective's role are Feiring's account and have not been independently verified. The host's figures ("connected to the murders of eight women prior to his arrest in 1979"; "as high as 130 people") are the host's statements; the 130 figure is a police estimate, not a proven count. "Narrowly escaped" is the program's framing: Feiring says in her essay, as quoted on air, "I didn't consider myself one of his survivors." Feiring speaks under her own name as an adult and may be named in page copy as she presents herself; her parents and brother are not named and must not be.

Tamron Hall: Welcome back. Welcome back. So, as I mentioned, I've been working on a new true crime show. I'll tell you more details very soon, but all hour we are speaking to real people behind the true crime headlines. Our next guest narrowly escaped a terrible fate. It was April of 1969. At age 14, Alice Feiring says she almost became a victim of the infamous Dating Game Killer, Rodney Alcala. He was given that name, Dating Game Killer, after appearing on an episode of the wildly popular TV show at the time, "The Dating Game," in 1978. This is him on the show then.

Bachelorette: Bachelor number one?

Rodney Alcala: Yes?

Bachelorette: What's your best time?

Rodney Alcala: The best time is at night. Nighttime.

Tamron Hall: But what people didn't know was that behind the charm was something more sinister. Alcala was connected to the murders of eight women prior to his arrest in 1979. However, law enforcement believes that that number could be as high as 130 people. And now this is back in the headlines. Anna Kendrick's Netflix movie, I just watched it, it's called "Woman of the Hour." It focuses on the victims and the lives this murderous animal took.

Tamron Hall: Decades later, women are still coming forward with their encounters, like our next guest, Alice Feiring. In a recent essay published in The Cut, Alice writes that "Rodney Alcala did not kill me. 40 years later, I asked him why. My prison visit to the Dating Game Killer in search of an answer." Here to share her story and more of what she hoped to obtain from him in that prison visit, please welcome renowned journalist and author Alice Feiring to our show. Thank you so much for joining us.

Tamron Hall: Let's go back to then, 1969, April. You were 14.

Alice Feiring: 14.

Tamron Hall: You met this individual, um, and at that time he had the alias of John Berger. [unclear: "Bur-" (captions; possibly the start of "Burger")] Um, you met him outside a bookstore.

Alice Feiring: Inside of a bookstore.

Tamron Hall: Inside the bookstore, and he asked to take your picture.

Alice Feiring: Well, I was in the bookstore buying a book that I'd lost of my brother's. Um, I'm pulling it off the shelf, and it was by Albert Camus, and he said, "Oh, existentialist." And I, he was, I imagined he was, seemed much taller, um, and creepy.

Tamron Hall: So instantly you got the creeps from him.

Alice Feiring: He was a very good-looking man, but there was something about his eyes. Um, they were really, he could go from really handsome to really sinister, and I got that immediately, and I didn't feel comfortable. I went, I would have been safer in the bookstore, but I went to pay and get out. Um, he followed me.

Tamron Hall: He followed you.

Alice Feiring: He followed me.

Tamron Hall: At some point he convinced you, though, to take photographs.

Alice Feiring: Well, he convinced me to walk with him, and I was waiting for my father, who was getting a haircut across the street, and I had an hour to kill. So, um, and I'm like 14 years old, I just got my braces tightened. Nobody wants to take my photograph. I am really not pretty, you know, and at least that's the way I felt. And I thought, this is a come-on, this is, you know, and I had a sense this was, um, a trick. But he said, "Oh, look, it was 1969, you have to trust people." And I felt too shy to show him I did not trust him. And he said, "It's really about your coloring, the red hair, the [unclear: "block of" (all machine readings)]." Okay, fine.

Tamron Hall: So he played on this, right?

Alice Feiring: He played on it.

Tamron Hall: So you felt like, okay, if I tell him I'm not going to go, he's going to think, "Oh, what, what, what are you, too good to come? I'm just taking a photo." And you're a kid, you're 14, let's keep this in mind. So you end up there.

Alice Feiring: Right. So he says, "This is my block." I said, "Well, I'm not going into your apartment. I'm not that stupid." Um, "So what about the rooftop?" That seemed safe to me, which is ridiculous, but it was fine. I was, you know, I was a [unclear: "downer" (captions) / "downster" (Whisper and the second machine pass)], and so he had me do certain moves, and he seemed normal at that point.

Tamron Hall: So you're on the roof. Again, you're 14 years old at the time, you were going through this process. He goes to the bathroom. He comes out naked.

Alice Feiring: Yeah. And, um, and at that point he had given me a pack of photographs to look at before he went to the bathroom, which terrified me. And, um, I was already, "How do I get out of here?" I was at the door by the time he came out without clothes.

Tamron Hall: So this, the photographs are important, because if you watch the film, and this is a dramatization of the film, but apparently he kept a lot of these pictures of women who were later discovered to be victims.

Alice Feiring: They were terrifying. The photos were terrifying.

Tamron Hall: The photos were terrifying. Do you, you remember them to this day?

Alice Feiring: I remember them. I remember so much about this, exactly. So yes, the pack of, it was Polaroids. I remember the look of the apartment, um, and I put them down. He said, "Well, this is, this is my work. I'll be right back. I have to go to the bathroom." And I looked at them, and I said, "You better get out of here right now."

Tamron Hall: So your mind told you.

Alice Feiring: It was like, this was not cool. And so, uh, there was a police lock, and I had never seen one of those before.

Tamron Hall: What is... I don't know what a police lock is.

Alice Feiring: It is a pole that comes out of the door into the ground, and I had never seen one.

Tamron Hall: And I'm 54. I still never seen one. So you're...

Alice Feiring: So I'm like, and I am not mechanical, so, um...

Tamron Hall: He's, um... You got the lock open.

Alice Feiring: I somehow, as he was reaching for me, I got out.

Tamron Hall: So he's... Oh, wow. So by the time you see him, you run to the door, you've got this device trapping you in, you make it out.

Alice Feiring: Yeah.

Tamron Hall: You bolt out of there, and, and then you come back.

Alice Feiring: Okay. Um, I, it's like one of those amazingly stupid things that a 14-year-old or a kid can do, but I left my book.

Tamron Hall: And the book that you'd bought for your brother.

Alice Feiring: That I bought for my brother, that my father had given me the money for, and if I had come back without the book, I'd have to tell him what happened, and I didn't want to tell him what happened.

Tamron Hall: So you went back to the house, you knocked on the door, and you said...

Alice Feiring: I said, "Book, please." I was...

Tamron Hall: "Book, please." And he handed you the book?

Alice Feiring: And I, [unclear: "ran" (second machine pass only)], and I... [laughter or crosstalk; no words resolved, about 06:25 to 06:34]

Tamron Hall: Yeah. You know what I mean? All I'm trying to visualize is this 14-year-old, like, "Book, please." Was he still naked?

Alice Feiring: He was still naked.

Tamron Hall: When we come back, decades after that terrifying encounter with the Dating Game Killer, Alice went to visit him in prison to get answers. Next. [06:56: break; the show returns at 07:03.]

Tamron Hall: Welcome back, welcome back. We are back with journalist and author Alice Feiring, whose essay in The Cut details her face-to-face encounter with a notorious serial killer, Rodney Alcala, also known as the Dating Game Killer. She was 14 years old at the time. Now fast-forward, Alice, to 2013. You're now 44 years after that encounter. You decided you wanted to go to Rikers Island, right, and speak face to face with him. Why?

Alice Feiring: Well, I think it's really important to know that I had no idea who he was until 2010, when I happened to be watching television at a hotel room, and it said [unclear: "Ronnie Alcala" (Whisper and the second machine pass) / "ronel Kella" (captions)], [unclear: "Ronnie Alcala" / "ronel K"] sentenced to death. And I'm like, "That's not [unclear: "Ronnie Alcala" / "ronel CA"]. That's John Berger."

Tamron Hall: So this whole time...

Alice Feiring: I had no idea who it was.

Tamron Hall: You had no idea. So you left [unclear: "that apartment" (second machine pass) / "that, you fled from his, from that" (captions)].

Tamron Hall: Did you tell other family members at the time about it?

Alice Feiring: My brother. Immediately, when I got home, I called him in school, and I said, "What just happened to me?"

Tamron Hall: Yeah.

Alice Feiring: And he said, "Just don't tell Mom and Dad."

Tamron Hall: Right. So this whole time, you thought the creepy guy named John...

Alice Feiring: You know, I, I got out of that house, and, and, and life went on as it was.

Tamron Hall: And then in 2010, you're watching TV. He's sentenced.

Alice Feiring: Yeah. And so all that night, I'm Googling to make sure. It couldn't possibly, it couldn't have been a [unclear: "serial" (captions "seral") / "serial crime" (Whisper)].

Tamron Hall: Did you instantly recognize him all those years later?

Alice Feiring: He had the same hair, kind of curly, and wore glasses. And then I was Googling until I came across "alias John [unclear: "Berger" (Whisper) / "Burger" (captions)], 1969, East Village." Done. So he is extradited to New York City for two, two cold cases.

Tamron Hall: Two cold cases here.

Alice Feiring: I go to court to listen, and just really don't know why, maybe to pay my respects to the women he killed. Um, I'm in touch with the detective, Detective Wendell Stradford (name as heard; spelling not verified), who really encouraged me.

Tamron Hall: Okay. So you go to Rikers Island, 2013, and you wrote in your essay, "I didn't consider myself one of his survivors. Still, I wanted to know so badly why he didn't kill me."

Alice Feiring: Right.

Tamron Hall: Why did you want to know that answer?

Alice Feiring: Um, if, uh, through my talks with Detective Stradford, he really assured me it wasn't that he hadn't stopped killing or started killing, but really I was one of the very few, if, um, who had seen him in that state and escaped [unclear: "without" (Whisper and the second machine pass) / "with" (captions)] at least being brutalized. So if I had thought that, okay, he was just, he didn't kill everybody...

Tamron Hall: Yeah.

Alice Feiring: So if I was just, and that was, I did, I knew he was never going to give me an answer.

Tamron Hall: So you go there. How do you introduce yourself?

Alice Feiring: I, I rehearsed this. I was so nervous, especially nervous, unshackled, alone in with him in the room. It was like, scary. Um, and first he thought I was a social worker who was coming to help him. Um, and then I said no, and said, "Well, then why are you here?" And I said, "Well, we met a long time ago." And I said, "When?" I said, "1969." I said, "Yeah, that was a long time ago." And, um, and "I was just wondering whether you remembered." And he said, "Well, uh, no." Um, "But I thought you might, because it had an interesting ending. I went back for my book. And then I told you what happened." [unclear: "and then I told you what happened" (Whisper and the second machine pass) / "and then I told" (captions)]

Tamron Hall: Did he remember?

Alice Feiring: Um, he did not. And it, you know, I thought that you would remember somebody as stupid as I was. Um...

Tamron Hall: But did you feel that you were in the presence of evil?

Alice Feiring: I did feel that I was...

Tamron Hall: Did you leave the conversation with what you wanted? 'Cause you went back. You went twice.

Alice Feiring: I went back again, and I went back to San Quentin this time. I had, I had to do it for a few reasons. One is that I thought I might be writing a book about my experiences and what I learned about him. Um, and also Wendell, because he knew that I had a rapport with him, he felt, he said, "Maybe you could help us find more bodies." And so that's really why I went.

Tamron Hall: So now this time has passed. Um, what do you hope people learn? Because I, I know you won't watch the Netflix.

Alice Feiring: Um, I won't.

Tamron Hall: And I can understand why. If you've lived through something like that, I would...

Alice Feiring: I've heard great things about it, though.

Tamron Hall: It is, it's compelling. It is compelling, but it's TV. It's a, it's a, it's a fictionalized version of it. Um, but in fact, you experienced and saw it firsthand. What do you want people to learn from this? Because you could have kept this story silent. You didn't have to share it. You chose to.

Alice Feiring: Well, I think that in sharing it, so many other stories come out. Um, friends of mine, other people who have had really close experiences, and you don't even realize how close they are. And I think it's really important to remember, as much as we want to love everybody, that you have got to earn trust, and you w-, um, and mostly parents of children, I don't think do enough to educate. They can instill fear, but not really rational. Look, everybody looks like a human, but not everybody is a human.

Tamron Hall: That's [unclear: "right" (Whisper and the second machine pass) / "fact" (captions)]. That is true. That is true. Listen, you can read more about Alice's story and other parts of her life, and her memoir is called "To Fall in Love, Drink This." [12:18: speech ends; silence to the end of the video at 12:28.] ---