"More Probable Yes Than No": Joel Rifkin and the Search for Victims Six and Nine, 2023

Name: "More Probable Yes Than No": Joel Rifkin and the Search for Victims Six and Nine, 2023
Uploaded: 2023-10-20
Duration: 14 min 33 s
Description: About 30 years after his arrest, Joel Rifkin answered a TV producer's questions about the two women he killed who have never been identified, and looked again at a missing woman's photograph.

About 30 years after his arrest, Joel Rifkin answered a TV producer's questions about the two women he killed who have never been identified, and looked again at a missing woman's photograph.

Subject: Joel Rifkin
Recorded: about 2023
Runtime: 14:33

Content warning: A convicted killer of women describes beating and strangling his first victim and the strangling of another.

The Interview

Two of the women Joel Rifkin killed between 1989 and 1993 have never been identified. Known only as victim number six and victim number nine, they became the subject of a New York State Police cold-case effort, followed by A&E in the 2023 special *Cold Case Files: The Rifkin Murders*. In this clip from Part 2, Peter Reiss, a television producer who had known Rifkin since 1998, interviews him on camera in prison. Reiss asks about earrings Rifkin says he kept from victim six, about what he remembers of victim nine, and about a photograph of a missing woman, Denise Griffin, on which Rifkin had earlier stopped when investigators showed him more than 100 pictures.

Historical Context

Rifkin, a landscaper who lived with his adoptive mother in East Meadow, Long Island, picked up women working as prostitutes, mostly in New York City, and killed them. In the early hours of June 28, 1993, New York State troopers chased his unplated pickup truck on the Southern State Parkway and found the body of Tiffany Bresciani in the back. He confessed to 17 murders and was convicted of nine, with a total sentence of 203 years to life. His first victim, Heidi Balch, whom he knew as "Suzie", was identified only in 2013. Victim number nine was found on May 13, 1992, in a steel drum in Newtown Creek, Brooklyn; the remains of victim number six have never been recovered.

Circumstances of the Interview

Reiss had first met Rifkin in 1998 while making a science documentary and stayed in contact with him; that connection helped New York investigators reopen the two cases. In the clip Reiss tells the camera he was nervous before the interview and that it got off to "a rough start", so he began by asking Rifkin about his childhood. An investigator, not named in the clip, suggests Rifkin wants the women identified partly because it would put him "back in the news".

What the Interview Covers

Rifkin describes family holidays in the Catskills and his parents' deaths. He says he kept "rock candy type earrings" from victim six; Reiss points out that his description has changed between one earring and a pair. He describes victim nine's height and hair and says he strangled her "like the others". He then recounts the first murder, of "Suzie", whom he says he brought back to his house on Long Island. He talks about fantasy, about vowing "like 100 times" to stop, and about a letter from a woman who knew him "on the streets" and now has children. Shown Denise Griffin's photograph again, he says she is "more probable yes than no" victim six, but will not say for certain.

What Makes the Recording Significant

The clip shows a convicted serial killer being questioned to help identify his own victims, three decades after his arrest. A&E describes the special as including the first interview with Rifkin in more than a decade. Reiss's commentary records his doubts about whether Rifkin, who he says knows his crimes were wrong "intellectually", feels remorse, and whether he wants the cases closed.

Archival Importance

Rifkin was, by his own confession, the most prolific serial killer in New York State history. This recording preserves his account at the point where the last open questions in his case were being pursued, and adds to the earlier MSNBC interview of about 2009 (record V029).

Important Caveats

Everything Rifkin says about the victims, the earrings and Denise Griffin is his claim and his memory, which the programme itself says is imperfect. He did not identify Denise Griffin as victim six; he said "more probable yes than no". The page must not state that she was his victim. His account of the first murder (an artillery shell bought at a garage sale) is his own. The investigator heard in the clip is not named. The upload title's "Last 2 Murders" is misleading: these were his two unidentified victims, not his last killings. Victim numbering differs between sources; the page should use the programme's "victim number six" and "victim number nine".

Peter Reiss: So I'm coming on August 9th.

Joel Rifkin: All right. [unclear: "We answered things" / "Be interesting"].

Peter Reiss: Like I said, I just want to talk to you about mostly what we've been talking about these last [unclear: "three" / "two"] years, which is about six and nine.

Joel Rifkin: Okay.

Investigator: I think he wants to help find who these women are. His reasons, I don't know. But the way for this to pay off for him, in my mind, is for us to identify these women, because then he's back in the news, then he's current again, then he's relevant. If he's throwing roadblocks at us, if he's trying to confuse us, that moment's never going to come.

Crew Member: Peter Reiss, take one. Soft sticks. Common mark.

Peter Reiss: I guess I'm a little nervous about Rifkin. There is definitely some anxiety. What's he thinking, and is he going to be helpful? You never know what might pry loose from his memory, and you never know what break in the case might come.

Peter Reiss: Thanks for your time.

Joel Rifkin: No problem.

Peter Reiss: I knew this interview with Rifkin was going to be an important moment, so I really had to take advantage of the time I had with him to try to get the information that they were looking for.

Peter Reiss: How are you doing today?

Joel Rifkin: Good. Uh, mood's improved. Just feeling good.

Peter Reiss: What was it like meeting with investigators when they came to see you and kind of show you all the different pictures and everything? What was that experience like for you?

Joel Rifkin: Those interviews, they're more difficult because, uh, all the memories come back. It, uh, took a while to get readjusted afterwards.

Peter Reiss: Did, did they show you a bunch of pictures of potential victims?

Joel Rifkin: Uh, well, over 100, I believe.

Peter Reiss: Yeah. You stopped on a woman, Denise Griffin, that kind of had what I'm calling strawberry blonde hair.

Joel Rifkin: Yeah.

Peter Reiss: Do you remember what you said about her, or do you remember anything about her?

Joel Rifkin: Sadly, no.

Peter Reiss: It was a rough start. He seemed a little nervous. He seemed cold. There wasn't a lot of back and forth. It was just ask a question and get a one-word answer. So I started talking to him about his childhood and things I knew that he liked talking about and reminiscing about.

Peter Reiss: What are the good memories of your childhood and your mom and your family?

Joel Rifkin: Some happier times. We did, uh, family vacations. Went to a [unclear: "bungalow" / "plow"], large hotel thing that were very popular in the Catskills, in the mountains. The film Dirty Dancing takes place at one of these places.

Peter Reiss: So are those, you know, home movies, is that a good representation of your childhood? And do you have happy memories when you think about those memories?

Joel Rifkin: [unclear: "Girlie" / "Early"], yeah.

Peter Reiss: Now, what about the relationship with your mom? Did you love her, and do you feel like she loved you?

Joel Rifkin: Oh, yeah. Uh, Mom was always there. Her passing was a big loss. Dad passed before my arrest.

Peter Reiss: I don't know. It took a while for him to warm up. [unclear: "This is the name of the borough" / "This the name of the burrow"]. And I think a lot of it has to do with his memory isn't perfect, and I think that he is somewhat conflicted. I think that he wants to help identify these women and get the publicity, but does he want to go all the way and identify them and close the case?

Peter Reiss: Now, you do believe that you kept some jewelry from number six.

Joel Rifkin: Yeah, I've referred to them as, uh, rock candy type earrings.

Peter Reiss: Do you remember if it was a pair of earrings or a single earring?

Joel Rifkin: I believe it's a pair.

Peter Reiss: You believe it's a pair. It seems like the story has changed sometimes, between the single, pair, clear or, or bluish.

Joel Rifkin: I've always described it as rock candy. The color, it's [unclear: "years" / "you years"]. There's different memories over the years.

Peter Reiss: Rifkin's original story was that it was a pair of earrings that looked like rock candy. Then he went to a single. Today, he went back to being a pair of earrings, and that he was just confused, basically. So there's still hope that those earrings could provide the identity of victim number six, with that partial DNA sample. But there's also a chance that the police will find her remains, and then she can be identified that way. So I tried to get more details from him about victim number nine.

Peter Reiss: Number nine, her body was found May of '92, in, in Brooklyn. Can you tell me what you remember about her?

Joel Rifkin: Taller, uh, bigger-boned than, uh, number six. Five-seven, five-ten-ish, maybe.

Peter Reiss: Do you remember any kind of tattoo on her?

Joel Rifkin: No.

Peter Reiss: Hair color?

Joel Rifkin: Dark with, uh, [unclear: "brassy" / "grassy"] blond highlights. Long, sort of in a, in an updo.

Peter Reiss: Where did you go, and what did you do with her?

Joel Rifkin: I'm not sure if it was a parking lot or a building lot. We didn't even really do anything, 'cause the, the trigger with her, [unclear: "where" / "way"] she just kept sleeping. So it was like...

Peter Reiss: Did you strangle her?

Joel Rifkin: Yeah, like the others. I could be with two, three girls in one night. They'd be fine. The next night, I could be with another two, three. The first two'd be fine. The third one wouldn't be.

Peter Reiss: Uh, why her and not the other five?

Joel Rifkin: I still don't understand. Something comes over you. [unclear: "Ah, it's been called that" / "It's been called that"].

Peter Reiss: There's a lot of victims. There's a lot of jewelry. There's a lot of facts. And he has a great memory, but it's not perfect. And so I started asking him about his crimes from the beginning.

Peter Reiss: Can you tell me about the first victim?

Joel Rifkin: Uh, yeah, Suzie, with a Z. Started out in Manhattan, the Forsyth, Allen Street area. We eventually go back to the house on the island. In her case, I picked up an artillery shell. I had bought it at a, uh, garage sale for like a quarter. About yea big. And smacked [unclear: "it" / "her"] with it, and then kept hitting [unclear: "it" / "there"] with it until, uh, I physically got tired. I don't know, 20, 30 times, maybe.

Joel Rifkin: I'm freaking out. I think I killed her. I'm running around, pulling down curtains, closing doors, turning lights off, just freaking out. And, uh, she sits up. And now, just total freak-out. We ended up wrestling, and either strangled her or smothered her, or a combination of both, because I had no idea what to now do with a bloody mess. That, you know, what do you do? Where do you go? Huh. Panic.

Peter Reiss: And what about that first one, do you think, made you cross the line?

Joel Rifkin: We read books that guys fantasize about murder and mayhem all the time. I don't know. I guess at that moment the, the fantasy life and the real life just intertwined. And [unclear: "there's also" / "he also"]... You lie to yourself while you're doing this. That's the other thing. You, you do one, and, well, they can only kill you the first time for the one, so the second one becomes, like, a free one. Well, so then you can rationalize the third one. Back and forth, back and forth.

Peter Reiss: Did you ever vow to stop?

Joel Rifkin: Oh, like 100 times. It's the same as quitting smoking. Yeah, I'll do that tomorrow. Tomorrow I'm smoking. Hm. I'll quit again. Yep. We have a weird definition of what's crazy and what's legally crazy. Trust me, I was not normal at the time. After that, it just really twisted me.

Peter Reiss: Uh, do you really feel sorry for what you did?

Joel Rifkin: Yeah. Uh, they're gone. I mean, uh, I get weird mail. I get interesting mail, I get psycho mail, I get a lot of mail. But I get this letter, female handwriting, it's obviously from a woman. Hi, uh, I knew you on the streets. You knew me. Uh, thank you for not killing me. I [unclear: "know I" / "now"] have five daughters. You know?

Peter Reiss: Oh.

Joel Rifkin: So there's just five, you know, kids that, had things gone differently those two nights, wouldn't be here, you know. So I start thinking about all the stuff that never happened. And then it's just, yeah, there's a lot going on up there. It's a double-edged tragedy. They're gone. I'm sitting in here. I've had a lot of other plans and fantasies about, oh, you know, different life. That's gone. I'm sure they had, uh, goals and fantasies and ideas for life, and it's gone for them.

Peter Reiss: Everyone wants to know, does Rifkin actually feel remorse? He knows what he did is wrong. I think he knows that intellectually, but I don't think he actually feels it in his soul. I just think that he doesn't possess the emotions. Like, he can't feel that emotion, for whatever reason. It just doesn't exist in him.

Peter Reiss: A lot of people, they think you have ulterior motives, or you're giving some information but not all the information. How do you respond to that?

Joel Rifkin: It's been 30 years. There's no ulterior motive. There's no appeal. There's no time off. Uh, I don't get anything from this exchange monetarily. Uh, they can think what they want to think.

Peter Reiss: At that point, Rifkin was speaking freely. Like I said, it's not all there. I decided to double back to Denise Griffin. I wanted to see what his reaction to her picture would be. This was going to be my only chance to see if he would ID her as victim number six. So I showed him the picture of Denise Griffin, and I said, could this be victim number six?

Peter Reiss: Is, is this, is this the woman that, that you stopped on?

Joel Rifkin: Uh, yeah. Uh, I think when I knew [unclear: "where"] the hair was shorter, it was more, uh, off the shoulder. Yeah, I don't think there was that much makeup.

Peter Reiss: So what are your thoughts when you look at that?

Joel Rifkin: More probable yes than no. That's the closest image to what I remember. The street life is a very hard life, and appearances change very, very quickly, and, uh, what you see one month is not what you see the next month.

Peter Reiss: He said more probable than not that Denise Griffin is victim number six. So that is significant, but he's reluctant to go all the way. Is it because he wants to keep it open and keep some mystery alive? I don't know. But part of me now believes that he's not going to go all the way and say this is her, that this is his way of saying that, and that's as close as he's going to get.

Unidentified Speaker: We have to close down.

Peter Reiss: I hope we can stay in touch. Thank you.

Peter Reiss: After the interview with Rifkin, I had mixed emotions. He never shut down or backed off when I asked him detailed questions. He seemed to try to rack his memory as best he could.

Peter Reiss: Thanks, sir.

Investigator: I'm always hoping that he's going to go in there and give us all the information that we want, like, tied up in a bow. And that's just not happening. It's definitely been frustrating from my perspective, because I was hoping to have all the answers by now. ---