Gary Muehlberg's Third Police Interview on the "Package" Murders, Potosi Correctional Center, 2022 (Part 3)

Name: Gary Muehlberg's Third Police Interview on the "Package" Murders, Potosi Correctional Center, 2022 (Part 3)
Uploaded: 2023-09-08T00:00:00Z
Duration: 2 h 31 min 18 s
Description: In his third prison interview, Gary Muehlberg went through five killings case by case, including a woman he says he left in a metal barrel at a car wash, who has never been identified.

In his third prison interview, Gary Muehlberg went through five killings case by case, including a woman he says he left in a metal barrel at a car wash, who has never been identified.

Subject: Gary Randall Muehlberg
Recorded: about August 2022
Runtime: 2:31:18

Content warning: A detailed confession to the murders of women he picked up for paid sex: how he says he strangled or choked them, tied one up, and put their bodies into a trash can, a dresser built into a plywood box and a metal barrel, some of which he kept behind his house while the bodies decomposed; questions about sex and death.

The Interview

In late August or September 2022, Detective Jodi Weber of the O'Fallon, Missouri, Police Department returned to Potosi Correctional Center for a third interview with Gary Muehlberg. Since her last visit they had exchanged letters, and in his he had written about two more women. This time she brought Detective Chris McNamara of the Maryland Heights Police Department, whose department had investigated the death of one of the four women. According to the Riverfront Times, Mike Harvey of the St. Charles County Prosecuting Attorney's Office also took part. After Muehlberg was read his rights again, he was questioned for about two and a half hours. The session was recorded on a police camera, and KSDK News in St. Louis published it in September 2023, without narration, as the third of four parts.

Historical Context

In 1990 and 1991 the bodies of four women were found in the St. Louis area, each inside some kind of container: Robyn Mihan between two mattresses near Silex in Lincoln County, Donna Reitmeyer in a trash can in the city of St. Louis, Brenda Pruitt in a trash can in Maryland Heights, and Sandy Little in a dresser along I-70 in O'Fallon. The cases went unsolved. In 1993 Muehlberg was arrested for the murder of Kenneth "Doc" Atchison, whose body was found in a makeshift coffin in his home in Bel-Ridge; he was convicted in 1995 and sentenced to life without parole. Decades later, Weber, an O'Fallon cold-case detective, linked his DNA to evidence from the 1990s cases.

Circumstances of the Interview

This was the third of four sessions between June and September 2022. In the first, Muehlberg had denied any memory of the killings and asked for a lawyer. About five weeks later, after the prosecutors of St. Louis, St. Charles and Lincoln counties gave him letters saying they would not seek the death penalty, he confessed to three murders. This session followed about three weeks after that. Weber explains on the recording that the prosecutors want "full cooperation" and details that corroborate his account, and Muehlberg asks whether he will have to go to one court or to "each little municipality". He says, "I'm confessing to five murders. Doesn't that satisfy some people?"

What the Interview Covers

The detectives take the cases one at a time, without naming the women. Muehlberg says he picked them up for paid sex in south St. Louis, took them to his house on Edgar, and killed them there, by strangling or choking, with his hands or with twine, shoelace or rope; he says he does not remember the moment of death and cannot explain why he did it. He describes wiring two twin mattresses together, building a plywood box around a dresser and moving it with a two-wheel hand truck, leaving a woman in a trash can off Page Avenue in Maryland Heights near the Shriners' Moolah Temple where he had worked, and leaving another in a trash can in a small park off Broadway in south St. Louis, which he thinks may have been the first. He also describes a fifth woman: he says he kept her body in a metal barrel behind his house for a couple of months, then left the barrel at a car wash in the median of Natural Bridge, near his home. He says he cannot remember what she looked like. Later he talks about his family, his Marine Corps service, his psychology degree, a failed trucking business and daily life in prison, and says of the women, "they were in the wrong fucking place at the wrong time."

What Makes the Recording Significant

The video shows the slow work of testing a confession: the detectives return again and again to small physical details (containers, lids, colors, the van, the time of night) that only the killer would know, and Muehlberg repeatedly says he cannot remember. According to the Riverfront Times, it was in this session that he confessed to the murder of Donna Reitmeyer and described a fifth victim. The woman in the barrel has never been identified or found.

Archival Importance

Recordings of a serial killer's police interviews are rarely made public at this length. Together, the four parts preserve about nine hours of the investigation that closed four murder cases that had been open for more than 30 years and led to four guilty pleas in March 2023. This part holds his most detailed account of the woman in the barrel, a possible victim whom police have not been able to identify.

Important Caveats

No victim is named in this part; which description refers to which named victim is inferred from the places and containers he describes, and his matching of cases is sometimes uncertain in the recording. His account of the fifth woman is his claim alone: KSDK reported that police have not confirmed she existed. His statements that there were no other victims, no drugs, no bondage during sex and no planning, and his dates (he puts the first killing in late 1988 or 1989), are his claims and should not be read as established fact. Some lines cannot be attributed with certainty to Weber or McNamara, and several passages are hard to hear.

Correctional Officer: All right, we got visitors again.

Det. Jodi Weber: Hi, Gary.

Interviewer: Hey, Gary. Morning. How's it going?

Gary Muehlberg: Oh, it's going.

Det. Jodi Weber: Put your own pad?

Gary Muehlberg: Yeah. When you have certain surgeries you have more padding.

Det. Jodi Weber: Oh, yeah.

Gary Muehlberg: Two years ago I had a biopsy done on my prostate. They didn't get the antibiotics to me in time and developed gangrene, so they had to do emergency surgery on the scrotum. And it helps to have padding when you sit.

Det. Jodi Weber: Oh, I imagine. So how are we doing?

Gary Muehlberg: Sure. Doing well, and you?

Det. Jodi Weber: Been better. Been better. [unclear: "And we all?" / "than we all"] Yeah. Yeah. Did you get my letter?

Gary Muehlberg: Yes, ma'am, I did.

Det. Jodi Weber: Okay.

Gary Muehlberg: I think I got it like Thursday.

Det. Jodi Weber: I didn't know if it would get here in time.

Gary Muehlberg: Or Wednesday. Yeah.

Det. Jodi Weber: Okay. Are you hungry?

Gary Muehlberg: I had breakfast this morning.

Det. Jodi Weber: We brought you Hardee's. You don't want it? Okay. We'll give it to one of the guards then, I guess. You want some water? You want water?

Gary Muehlberg: I might need some of that. Yeah.

Det. Jodi Weber: Got it. Yeah. So, obviously we came back down to talk about the ones that you mentioned in your letter. So we brought a friend with us this time: Detective McNamara with Maryland Heights. You know, because I'm O'Fallon, there's Lincoln County, and then Maryland Heights. Do you mind if he comes in here, sits in here while we talk?

Gary Muehlberg: No.

Det. Jodi Weber: Okay. He's a nice guy, so, you know, I think you'll like him. Can't believe you pass up fast food after all these years and not having fast food.

Gary Muehlberg: Well, my teeth aren't glued in and they don't fit tight enough, and I had breakfast and, I don't know. Appreciate it, but that's okay.

Det. Jodi Weber: Okay. There'll be somebody. Yeah.

Interviewer: [unclear: "Can you throw it out in the zone with the vulture book on it?" / "throw it out in the zone"] Yeah.

Gary Muehlberg: Are you recording this?

Det. Jodi Weber: Yeah, it's recording.

Gary Muehlberg: Have you done the others, too?

Det. Jodi Weber: Mm-hmm. We have to, by law.

Gary Muehlberg: Okay.

Det. Jodi Weber: So, and that way you don't have to write anything down.

Gary Muehlberg: Yeah, somebody has to transcribe it.

Det. Jodi Weber: I know. That's me.

Gary Muehlberg: Oh, okay.

Det. Jodi Weber: That is me. So it helps me, so I don't have to take all these notes. Yeah. You know?

Gary Muehlberg: Save time one way and use up time in another way.

Det. Jodi Weber: Right. Right. Because that'd be a lot of note-taking, so. And I don't want to have any miscommunication, you know? With note-taking, that kind of happens. So. Gary, good morning. This is Chris McNamara.

Det. Chris McNamara: Hi, Gary. How are you?

Gary Muehlberg: [unclear: "Now, Chris." / "Chris."]

Det. Chris McNamara: I'm going to [unclear: "do it"]. I might get past you there. Yeah. Thank you.

Interviewer: [unclear: "As far as all your water."] I did. He's a smart guy.

Det. Jodi Weber: All right. Well, obviously we're here again, so we got to go over the paperwork first real quick, and then we'll get into, you know, what we're here for, so. [03:22 to 03:36: no speech in either machine source; paperwork.]

Det. Jodi Weber: All right. There we go. All right. Before we ask you any questions, you must understand your rights. You do not have to make a statement or answer any questions. You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can be used against you in a court of law. You have the right to talk to your lawyer for advice before you are asked any, you are asked any questions, and to have the lawyer present with you during questioning. If you cannot afford to hire a lawyer, and if you so desire, one will be appointed for you for any questioning. If you decide to answer questions and/or make a statement now, you will have the right to stop answering questions and remain silent at any time. If you'd like to talk to us, sign the waiver. [04:14 to 04:16: no speech; signing.]

Det. Jodi Weber: Thank you, sir.

Gary Muehlberg: Thank you.

Det. Jodi Weber: So have you thought any more about, I put a couple questions in there.

Gary Muehlberg: Some of them, yeah.

Det. Jodi Weber: A couple things come to mind or anything?

Gary Muehlberg: Not really. I mean, I remember, I know I didn't put anything in [unclear: "with the end of the season" / "within to the season"]. Might be it sat outside my house for a week or two in the winter times. I don't know if that would account for a low odor or no odor or whatever.

Det. Jodi Weber: Okay. So they sat outside your house?

Gary Muehlberg: One or two of them did, yeah.

Det. Jodi Weber: Okay. And when we say one or two, are they the ones that we've already talked about? So we talked about the one with the mattresses, and then we talked about the one...

Gary Muehlberg: No, the one that I wrote in the letter, the car wash. She sat outside the house for a while.

Det. Jodi Weber: Okay. Can you tell us a little bit more about that? Do you remember where you first came in contact with her?

Gary Muehlberg: Probably down south St. Louis somewhere.

Det. Jodi Weber: Okay. All right.

Gary Muehlberg: Some of the things are vague. I don't know if I have a mental block on it or I just don't remember.

Det. Jodi Weber: Sure, you know. What do you remember about that one?

Gary Muehlberg: Not really that much, except for a metal barrel. Kind of like, I don't know if it's an oil drum or, it had a split rim on it to keep the lid on.

Det. Jodi Weber: Do you remember where you got the oil drum from?

Gary Muehlberg: Oh, I sure don't.

Det. Jodi Weber: Okay. And we're talking about the one in the car wash, right?

Gary Muehlberg: Yes, sir.

Det. Jodi Weber: Okay. So you remember, do you remember bringing her back to the house?

Gary Muehlberg: Mm-hmm.

Det. Jodi Weber: Okay. Do you remember anything after that?

Gary Muehlberg: Not really.

Det. Jodi Weber: Okay.

Gary Muehlberg: I mean...

Det. Jodi Weber: Okay. Do you remember how, what you did to her to be able to put her in that drum?

Gary Muehlberg: Besides take her life?

Det. Jodi Weber: Mm-hmm. Can you tell us about taking her life?

Gary Muehlberg: Mm-hmm.

Det. Jodi Weber: Can you tell us about taking her life?

Gary Muehlberg: Yes, sir. For some odd reason, I took her life. And I've been racking my brain trying to think of what I call, whether it makes sense or not, a really dark part of my life. I mean, I've been racking my brain trying to figure out what would make me do that. You know, what snapped, what popped, what caused it, where the intent was.

Det. Jodi Weber: You say taking her life, do you remember how you did it?

Gary Muehlberg: No. I know there was one, maybe two, that was like with twine or shoelace or some kind of apparatus.

Det. Jodi Weber: And what did you do with that twine or shoelace?

Gary Muehlberg: Left it with them. I'm not really sure. It's like, I don't know what they, what happened. I don't know what happened with their clothes or any of that. I mean, not to make feeble excuses, but 30-some-odd years ago, I can't remember all the specific details.

Det. Jodi Weber: Sure.

Gary Muehlberg: You know, the basic stuff is, I'm good for it. [unclear: (captions only) "I did it."]

Det. Jodi Weber: When you say twine or shoelaces, what was the cause of death, would have been? I mean, what would you have done with that?

Gary Muehlberg: Do what now?

Det. Jodi Weber: What would you have done with the shoelaces or the twine that you're talking about?

Gary Muehlberg: Strangled them.

Det. Jodi Weber: Do you remember doing that?

Gary Muehlberg: With one of them, I do believe, yeah. I'm not real positive which one.

Det. Jodi Weber: Which one do you remember doing it to? Which one do you remember doing it to?

Gary Muehlberg: I don't.

Det. Jodi Weber: You said one of them.

Gary Muehlberg: Yeah. I'm not sure in what order, which was the first and which was the last. I'm thinking the one along the highway was probably the last one.

Det. Jodi Weber: Which, there was a few on the highway. Do you know which one specifically?

Gary Muehlberg: Okay, the one with the Highway 61 going up to Troy.

Det. Jodi Weber: Uh-huh.

Gary Muehlberg: Because at first I thought it was 64, but it's watching the news and weather, 61. And then one of them along, I believe, Interstate 70. And those are the only two that I can recall where I left the remains on the highway or in close proximity. Because the one in Maryland Heights, that was on a service road, but it wasn't on Page. It wasn't on a highway. It was off, like, an apartment complex.

Det. Chris McNamara: It feels like a service road. That road does. I don't know if you remember back then how Page ended right there, and then they had some pretty popular apartments there on the right.

Gary Muehlberg: Yeah, it ended right at, uh...

Det. Chris McNamara: Bennington.

Gary Muehlberg: Yes.

Det. Chris McNamara: Yeah, that area has kind of changed a little bit in 30 years, as Page goes all the way out to the river and crosses the river...

Gary Muehlberg: Which was always the plan, I think, but...

Det. Chris McNamara: Yeah. And then if you took a left, you went over to the Moolah [unclear: "Shrine"], the old [unclear: "Fifi" / "Thief had a fifi"]...

Gary Muehlberg: On Ross Road. Yeah.

Det. Chris McNamara: And you worked there, right?

Gary Muehlberg: Yeah.

Det. Chris McNamara: What did you do there?

Gary Muehlberg: Shriners building maintenance, kind of. I had a crew to keep it clean, organized. Worked a lot during circus week. Okay, every group or function or unit had monthly meetings, and they'd call me and I'd make sure they had the supplies in a room. Once a month they had a business meeting and a dinner, and supplies were ordered and delivered across my desk.

Det. Jodi Weber: So you mentioned one alongside the highway, so either the one on 61 or the one on 70. You mentioned the, you were talking about the one alongside the highway.

Gary Muehlberg: Yeah, I'm thinking there's only two of them I left along the highway, and that was one on 61, I think that was probably the mattresses.

Det. Jodi Weber: Mm-hmm.

Gary Muehlberg: And then the piece of furniture, or the wooden box, was on 70 westbound.

Gary Muehlberg: So the one in Maryland Heights, uh, the one in the car wash, and a young lady down in some park in South St. Louis. I believe it was off Broadway, near a VFW or American Legion.

Det. Jodi Weber: Mm-hmm. Yeah. So you said you remember taking the life, or strangling one of them, the one that you dumped alongside the highway. Which one would that be? So out of the two.

Gary Muehlberg: Apparently I took the life of all of them.

Det. Jodi Weber: [unclear: "Are you sure tied everything together?" (both sources)] Right. But what you said, you remember one specifically of doing that.

Gary Muehlberg: Not specifically.

Det. Jodi Weber: Okay.

Gary Muehlberg: I know there was one, and I'm not real certain how they all died, except for: did I strangle with my hands, with a rope? Smother them?

Det. Jodi Weber: Yeah. Do you remember smothering any of them?

Gary Muehlberg: Not necessarily, no.

Det. Jodi Weber: Okay. You know, these were young ladies, and from just looking at their pictures, they look like they might have been a little feisty. Did you have to fight any of them? Do you remember any retaliating, them trying to fight you back, or hitting you, or anything like that?

Gary Muehlberg: No, because I'm almost sure it started out with sex for pay.

Det. Jodi Weber: And was it just easier not to pay them? You know, I mean, it was free sex, so to speak.

Gary Muehlberg: I'm thinking they got their money before they got in or right after they got in the vehicle, before we went anywhere. And I'm almost sure there were probably a few that we stayed in the South St. Louis area, pay them, they do their thing, and I go on home about my business. And then a couple of them that I took out to my house.

Det. Jodi Weber: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Gary Muehlberg: Seems like the five we've talked about...

Det. Jodi Weber: Were all at your house.

Gary Muehlberg: The ones that, uh...

Det. Jodi Weber: Yeah. So there's five, actually, you know, their lives were taken. And I think you said all five of them were at your house at one time?

Gary Muehlberg: Yeah. I'm almost positive. That's where the homicides took place, in my house.

Det. Jodi Weber: Would there have been any other place that you could think of where you would feel safe enough to do that, other than your house?

Gary Muehlberg: No. And even having a pay-and-go relationship, I felt more comfortable in my home. And there were others, I'm not sure how many, one or two, went to my house, and I took them back to where they were when I met them, and nothing happened to them. That's why I'm racking my brain of...

Det. Jodi Weber: The ones that you said that nothing happened to them, were they... I'm trying to figure out the progression. Would they have been before the other five that were [unclear: "streaming" (Whisper) / omitted (captions); perhaps "strangled"]?

Gary Muehlberg: Oh, I sure don't remember.

Det. Jodi Weber: I'm just kind of curious as to why one and not the other, or not all of them.

Gary Muehlberg: So am I. I mean, what snapped? Or, I don't know what the proper word usage is. Make me do these deplorable acts to a couple of them, and not others. I mean, I don't have any answers to that. Maybe in time it'll come to me, but I can't guarantee it.

Det. Jodi Weber: So you mentioned, um, so the one on 61 with the mattresses. You had written in your letter about the coat hangers?

Gary Muehlberg: It was some kind of wire that held the two mattresses together, and I'm not a hundred percent sure if it was a coat hanger or some kind of wire. You know, like...

Det. Jodi Weber: You know. And do you remember, do you remember what you did to her? I mean, other than kind of what we've already talked about. But [unclear: "she put up a fight at all" / "no she put up a fight at all"]?

Gary Muehlberg: I think part of my problem, to be honest about it, is I'm admitting and facing reality that I committed these crimes, and blacked out the reasons why. I don't know if that makes sense or not.

Det. Jodi Weber: When you say, and again, I read the letter about the coat hangers, how would you, how would you secure those together? Do you remember?

Gary Muehlberg: Well, if it's used to hold the mattresses together: open them up, push them through the mattress, and then retie them. You know, [unclear: "keep like a clamp" / "it came like a clamp"] or something to hold them on.

Det. Jodi Weber: And you said those mattresses were, came from your house, right? Do you remember what size mattresses they were? Where they would have been in your house?

Gary Muehlberg: Yeah, I believe they were two twin size, because I had, when I was in undergrad school, I had a king-sized bed, but twin mattresses and box springs.

Det. Jodi Weber: Oh, gotcha.

Gary Muehlberg: If my memory serves me right.

Det. Jodi Weber: King-size mattresses are big. A lot of times you have twin mattresses that are put together.

Gary Muehlberg: Right. Put together. Yeah. And I'm thinking they were different shades of green stripes. I mean, it wasn't a solid color. There were some kind of lines to them.

Det. Jodi Weber: Okay.

Mike Harvey: What can you tell us about, and this again, this going back to Maryland Heights. You said that you, you know, put her off on Page, and I think you said you put her in some kind of trash can.

Gary Muehlberg: Okay. Maybe a plastic, like Tupperware. A dark brown. And it wasn't actually on Page. It was, I'm thinking, the apartment complex sat off of Page.

Mike Harvey: Well, that's what...

Gary Muehlberg: Yeah.

Mike Harvey: Yeah. Do you recall if there was a lid on that can or not?

Gary Muehlberg: I'm sure there was. Yeah, because, yeah, I'm almost sure there was a lid, whether it was still intact when she was discovered...

Det. Jodi Weber: Chris, this is your case.

Det. Chris McNamara: You know, on something like this, Gary, I know you had interactions plenty of times, sexual contact with these individuals, right? And others as well. And some you just took back home. But when it comes to someone losing their life at that moment, I think you could easily remember the first one, because it would be such a new experience. Do you remember which one was first? You must have really realized what had just happened the first time.

Gary Muehlberg: Yes. I'm thinking the one in the metal drum was the last one I disposed of.

Det. Chris McNamara: [unclear: "Choose the last." / "choose the last"] That was the car wash?

Gary Muehlberg: Yes, sir.

Det. Chris McNamara: Now, in regards to that one, do you remember her description?

Gary Muehlberg: No.

Det. Chris McNamara: Her race?

Gary Muehlberg: Mm-hmm.

Det. Chris McNamara: Her race?

Gary Muehlberg: I don't believe it was white.

Det. Chris McNamara: They were all white.

Gary Muehlberg: Well, you got me there. I'm not positive now.

Det. Chris McNamara: So she was the last one. What year would you say that would have been? So kind of put some references into the three that we've already talked about. That was 1990. Then the current offense, 1992, right? Or '93 was the conviction. So that time frame, what was the first one?

Gary Muehlberg: I think the first one might have been one in South St. Louis.

Det. Chris McNamara: What was she left in?

Gary Muehlberg: Mm-hmm.

Det. Chris McNamara: What type of container was she left in?

Gary Muehlberg: I think that was a plastic trash can, too.

Det. Chris McNamara: Do you ever think about the trash cans? Where'd you get those?

Gary Muehlberg: I don't know if they were ones I had at my house that was used for trash...

Det. Chris McNamara: Yeah.

Gary Muehlberg: Or if they were bought, like, at a hardware store.

Det. Chris McNamara: What hardware store did you use back then?

Gary Muehlberg: Numerous ones.

Det. Chris McNamara: Yeah.

Gary Muehlberg: I grew up on [unclear: "the Tan" / "the tan"] over there in Woodson Terrace, and there were some hardware stores down on the Rock Road.

Det. Chris McNamara: Which would have been close to your place. Do you remember which one?

Gary Muehlberg: Oh, I can't think of the name of them right now. Down towards, uh, what was that big shopping center down on Lindbergh and the Rock Road?

Det. Chris McNamara: I think they tore it down.

Gary Muehlberg: There was an Ozark Hardware on Natural Bridge, not far from a mortuary.

Det. Chris McNamara: Mm-hmm.

Gary Muehlberg: Oh, I can't think of the names.

Det. Chris McNamara: All right.

Gary Muehlberg: I know there's a lot of them. And being in construction for a while...

Det. Chris McNamara: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Gary Muehlberg: Not only bought supplies at the, close to the job site.

Det. Chris McNamara: Oh, okay. So the first one was the one at the car wash?

Gary Muehlberg: Where did that...?

Det. Chris McNamara: [unclear: "I'm not sure if she was the first one" (captions)]

Gary Muehlberg: Like I said, I don't remember the sequence or order of them. I know the one at the car wash was probably the last one I disposed of, or moved from my house. That she sat...

Det. Chris McNamara: Okay.

Gary Muehlberg: Behind my house for a while.

Det. Chris McNamara: So you were thinking the one left down by that little park was the first one?

Gary Muehlberg: Yeah. But don't hold me to that.

Det. Chris McNamara: Do you remember what she was doing when you first saw her or met her? The one by the park?

Gary Muehlberg: Walking the streets, looking for customers, or johns.

Det. Chris McNamara: Customers or johns.

Det. Chris McNamara: Who was living with you at the time, over there on [unclear: street name not resolved]?

Gary Muehlberg: Nobody. I was divorced at the time.

Det. Chris McNamara: And you had Chief, the German Shepherd, right?

Gary Muehlberg: Yeah.

Det. Chris McNamara: I got a history of German Shepherds myself. How long do you think, from the sexual contact to their death, did they hang around the house? How long of a time between the sexual contact and then their death would they have been in the house? Is it a party situation? You know what I'm saying? Are they hanging out?

Gary Muehlberg: Probably an evening.

Det. Chris McNamara: So not days. Not like a shacking-up situation.

Gary Muehlberg: At least not while they were alive. Like I said, the one in the box and the one in the barrel, they were up there for well over a week, because they were decomposed.

Det. Chris McNamara: Now, Jodi and I have visited the property. The house is not there, but we visited the property. [unclear: "the inner bevels there" / "the inner Bell's there"] at the time, right?

Gary Muehlberg: Yeah.

Det. Chris McNamara: Where did you store them on the property?

Gary Muehlberg: Behind the house. There wasn't really, if you, I don't know what's there now, if they sell a house or not.

Det. Chris McNamara: No, it's just a field. An open lot. It's grass, but it's an open lot.

Gary Muehlberg: Yeah.

Det. Chris McNamara: Okay. But I have seen the house, because during the current [unclear: "events" (both sources); perhaps "offense"] they made a videotape, which is not uncommon, during the processing. So I actually got to visually see what the house used to be.

Gary Muehlberg: A lot of construction. Yeah.

Det. Chris McNamara: Where would you have kept those remains once they, once they passed? How long, and then where would you keep...

Gary Muehlberg: That's the back?

Interviewer: Yeah. This is the front.

Gary Muehlberg: Is that the front?

Interviewer: This is the side. The back is here.

Gary Muehlberg: [unclear: "in about this way then" / "Peterbilt this way then"]

Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah. And, Gary, this is [unclear: "front of house" / "out of the back"]. So would you, probably back in this area? Could you smell, could you smell them?

Gary Muehlberg: No. Boy, there was a lot of debris around there.

Interviewer: Yeah. Of course.

Gary Muehlberg: How long, when were these pictures taken?

Interviewer: That's from the [unclear: "dock case, the little docks" / "little ducks"], yeah.

Gary Muehlberg: Of course, that would have been what year? '93?

Interviewer: Right.

Gary Muehlberg: '92, '93.

Interviewer: We're referring to 1990.

Gary Muehlberg: Mm-hmm.

Interviewer: Did it change much in those two years?

Gary Muehlberg: Hmm. Except for the debris and stuff like that, it would change up a little bit.

Det. Chris McNamara: Yeah. Yeah. And you were living alone, but you'd have visitors, right? You had friends and associates here and there, right?

Gary Muehlberg: Yeah, but not that many while the house, the inside, was under construction.

Det. Chris McNamara: So when I watched the video, it didn't appear anyone was actually living there. Or were you sleeping there at the time?

Gary Muehlberg: No.

Det. Chris McNamara: No? Because, like, the floors, you know, they needed carpet...

Gary Muehlberg: Yeah.

Det. Chris McNamara: They were just subfloors. Yeah. And then there was beds, but there was no sheets or anything on the beds. Were you not actually laying your head there at the time?

Gary Muehlberg: I think the females were before this construction started.

Det. Chris McNamara: Oh, okay.

Gary Muehlberg: I don't know.

Det. Chris McNamara: Two years, yeah?

Gary Muehlberg: Yeah. Two and a half. I'm trying to think of when this all started with my house.

Det. Jodi Weber: Yeah. Would that be after the fire?

Gary Muehlberg: Hmm?

Det. Jodi Weber: Would that be after the fire?

Gary Muehlberg: What, the girls?

Det. Jodi Weber: No, the construction of the house.

Gary Muehlberg: Oh, these here? Yeah. This is definitely after the fire. And I can't even remember what... [unclear: "Ninety-two the fire was." (Whisper) / "90 to the firewoods" (captions)]

Det. Chris McNamara: So if it was 1990, these three show up along the highways and the little roadways. The first one, you were possibly thinking it was the one down by the little park in the trash can. What year would that have been?

Gary Muehlberg: The latter part of '88, '89.

Det. Chris McNamara: Okay.

Gary Muehlberg: I don't think there was a long, multiple year...

Det. Chris McNamara: Yeah, between them.

Gary Muehlberg: No. No, like I said, it was like a short time period that it just happened. I mean...

Det. Chris McNamara: It never stopped. Did you ever discuss these behaviors with anyone at the time? Do you remember? Ever shared it, or kept it to yourself?

Gary Muehlberg: Nothing to brag about or talk about.

Det. Chris McNamara: No, it's not.

Gary Muehlberg: As far as talking to anybody, I don't believe there was. [unclear: "I can fight in anybody" / "that confide in anybody"; read as "I confided in anybody"]. No. Something of this magnitude...

Det. Chris McNamara: Yeah.

Gary Muehlberg: You know, it's nothing that I'd want to talk to anybody about.

Det. Chris McNamara: I know in the 30 years being in here, and people talk about stuff, but you said they don't normally talk about what they're in here for.

Gary Muehlberg: So no, not about this. I mean, I don't even talk that much about the case I'm here on, just what was public knowledge.

Det. Chris McNamara: Yeah. Right.

Gary Muehlberg: You know, there's people down here, I was in the county jail with, I knew from the streets, that knew cases, and general knowledge of a lot of different cases and different people. Like Jeff Ferguson: I didn't know him before I went to jail. [unclear: "Emory Fudo" / "Emery Futo"]: I didn't know him until I got down here. [unclear: "Same as a Charlie armored truck" / "Chambers a Charlie armored truck"]. You know, it's just... I don't know. You try to put stuff in the past. I mean, like with Doc. I'm here doing life without, uh, you know, boasting about it.

Det. Chris McNamara: Mm-hmm.

Gary Muehlberg: You know, it's something you wish you could just take an eraser, get rid of it, or go back and don't let it happen. But that's not being realistic, is it?

Det. Chris McNamara: No. But as humans, we want to do that. You know, in some ways that we can at least try to get to that is talking like this.

Gary Muehlberg: Yeah. I mean, I'm not just saying this to satisfy anybody, but I wish I could talk to the proper trained people to relive every little friggin' detail.

Det. Chris McNamara: You know, you mentioned last time, in the last one, I watched all the interviews, you would like to be hypnotized to try to help you recollect. You think that would help?

Gary Muehlberg: You know, that's like asking this one guy that was, what, recently in the paper, where his parachute didn't open. You would ask him before he jumped if he'd live to tell about it, if it didn't. Freakish things.

Det. Chris McNamara: One time during the interview, Jodi asked you the question, have you thought about these things before we got to talk to you? And boy, your reaction was like, of course, of course, that was part of your thoughts over the years. And although the little bit you talked to us about, the little bit that you gave us, that can't be the same thing that you played over and over in your mind. There's got to be other details. Logically, there's got to be other details that you recall. And that's what we're kind of looking for, is those little details.

Gary Muehlberg: Yeah.

Det. Chris McNamara: That maybe we don't know, even know about.

Gary Muehlberg: And maybe there's some little details I overlooked. I mean, I can't go back with any event, whether it's this. I can't give you every detail of Marine boot camp, and I lived it. You know, it's like, if you have, if you have total recall on every minute detail, then you're not creating any more things to remember, because all your time is occupied.

Det. Chris McNamara: I mean, what are some details we may have not asked you about, or you just not shared yet? What are some details you've not shared?

Gary Muehlberg: Probably some details I can't recall.

Det. Jodi Weber: So you said you were gonna jot some stuff down. Did you jot anything down?

Gary Muehlberg: Not yet. No. [unclear: "See this question" / "She just a question"], and y'all don't have to answer this, but I cannot truthfully say, I mean, why. I know what closure is all about, with the family and friends and myself and you all, everybody involved, whether it's directly or indirectly or on the outside perimeter of it. But I'm confessing to five murders. Doesn't that satisfy some people? Well, I understand if it was a go-to-a-jury trial. This ain't going to no jury trial.

Det. Jodi Weber: Right, right.

Gary Muehlberg: At least I don't think so.

Det. Jodi Weber: No.

Gary Muehlberg: [unclear: "No, because I" (captions)] I can just tell you my due process.

Det. Jodi Weber: Yeah. I can just tell you, talking to the three prosecutors, you know, we gave you the letters saying they wouldn't seek the death penalty. Talking to them, they want a little bit more information. They said full cooperation. And I think you're being cooperative, and I think you're struggling to remember stuff.

Gary Muehlberg: Yeah.

Det. Jodi Weber: But they would just like those little details to corroborate everything.

Gary Muehlberg: Okay. I can accept that.

Det. Jodi Weber: Yeah. So it's not like we're expecting you to remember every last detail. We're just asking questions, and maybe it sparks that little detail that you remember. But we're not expecting you to remember step by step, but just, it might spark something in you. You know, when we were here last, we were talking about three of them, and after we left, you realized that there was two more. Did you not think about that when we were talking the first go-around, or, that actually the second interview? Did you not remember?

Gary Muehlberg: Oh, over the years, I, yeah, I've thought about the five.

Det. Jodi Weber: But I mean, we were talking to you about three. How did, how did you all of a sudden...

Gary Muehlberg: [unclear: "If you were like" / "The fact that you were like"] asking more specific questions about the three cases in front of you at that time. See, I don't know if the other two were still there and you were gonna bring them up, or ran out, or whatever. But I mean, yeah, yeah, I was trying to answer the questions you were asking.

Det. Jodi Weber: Okay, that makes sense.

Gary Muehlberg: Yeah. I'm glad it does to you.

Det. Jodi Weber: So, talking a little bit more about the car wash one. So you said you're trying to give the location, exactly which car wash it was.

Gary Muehlberg: I don't know the name of it. It was near my home on Natural Bridge.

Det. Jodi Weber: Okay.

Gary Muehlberg: Because Natural Bridge from, I think it's North and South [unclear: "Street" (both sources); probably North and South Boulevard], west to the highway, it got that median all the way.

Det. Jodi Weber: Mm-hmm.

Gary Muehlberg: And the car wash was in the median, not far from a mortuary. I can't think of the name of the mortuary. Ozark Hardware was a little hardware store, a little shopping center, and all kind of restaurants, you know. I remember taking her there in my van, and leaving her there after I washed my truck, or my van rather, you know.

Det. Jodi Weber: That was the one in the barrel, you said?

Gary Muehlberg: Yeah.

Det. Jodi Weber: Okay.

Gary Muehlberg: Which was kind of like, knowing she'd [unclear: "be dead all the time" / "been dead all be found"]. I mean, I'm not the most intelligent person, but I'm not the most stupid either. I mean, if I was trying to really hide these crimes, I'm sure I could have done a lot better.

Det. Chris McNamara: You put them right next to the road.

Gary Muehlberg: Right.

Det. Chris McNamara: For, I'm not sure if you knew at the time, to be found.

Gary Muehlberg: It was no secret.

Det. Chris McNamara: Oh, so, consciously? Not just looking back?

Gary Muehlberg: Yeah. Yeah, they were easily found.

Det. Chris McNamara: So, for instance, we should probably, let's try to discuss in detail each one. So the one in Maryland Heights, by the apartments.

Gary Muehlberg: Yeah. She was in a plastic type of trash can.

Det. Chris McNamara: Let's try to think out some details, so we can go back to our prosecutor and say, he's really trying in here. And we'd like to get some details. So for instance, what time of day did you drop her off?

Gary Muehlberg: Night. Early morning.

Det. Chris McNamara: Okay. What time frame do you think? Like before dawn, or midnight?

Gary Muehlberg: Midnight.

Det. Chris McNamara: Okay. It was very well broadcast in the St. Louis Post-Dispatch, news channels. And one particular one, you told me about that, right? They did a newscast. And then she was found. You must have followed that stuff, because you had firsthand knowledge. It would pique the interest. Even if you're not following it in some sort of, you know, in a way that you're obsessed with it, but it would spark your interest. Do you remember it being broadcast and paying attention to the news? And were you concerned?

Gary Muehlberg: Yeah, I undoubtedly was concerned. But as far as making an exerted effort to watch everything or read the paper all the time...

Det. Chris McNamara: You knew they were gonna be found eventually.

Gary Muehlberg: Yeah. Waiting for that knock on the door after they were found. Like you said, there were DNA, there's probably fingerprints, whatever, that would trace it back to me.

Det. Chris McNamara: Did you do anything to disguise those pieces of evidence you just mentioned? So fingerprints, DNA. Did you take any effort to, you know, wipe off the trash can or anything like that? Or was it a concern?

Gary Muehlberg: Not really. I mean, if I were to really have planned it out, wouldn't have been any dog hair, wouldn't have been any traceable furniture. You know, because, like I said, [unclear: "I haven't for life" / "I'm for life"], I can't say why this all happened.

Det. Chris McNamara: Did it happen additionally, other than five times?

Gary Muehlberg: No.

Det. Chris McNamara: You're sure of that?

Gary Muehlberg: Yeah.

Det. Chris McNamara: So let's get back to the one in Maryland Heights. Did you ever pay her for sex before that incident? Was she a regular?

Gary Muehlberg: I don't believe so.

Det. Chris McNamara: Were any of them a repeat?

Gary Muehlberg: I can't say yes, I can't say no, with all honesty. It might have been, you know, we felt comfortable around each other.

Det. Chris McNamara: Exactly. Yeah. Because for them to go from the city out to the county at the time...

Gary Muehlberg: Yeah.

Det. Chris McNamara: It was a big deal for them.

Gary Muehlberg: Yeah, for them, time is money.

Det. Chris McNamara: Time is money.

Gary Muehlberg: Yeah.

Det. Chris McNamara: And that's always the thing: if you get in the car with somebody, that's the danger part in that profession, right? If you stay around where your neighborhood is, a little more comfortable. So was there any attempt to restrain them, or get them high, incapacitate them in some fashion, to get them out to the county?

Gary Muehlberg: No.

Det. Chris McNamara: They were willing.

Gary Muehlberg: It was a business transaction.

Det. Chris McNamara: Yeah, I understand.

Gary Muehlberg: But no, there was no drugs involved on my part, you know.

Det. Chris McNamara: Where did the sexual contact occur, once inside the house?

Gary Muehlberg: The bedroom.

Det. Chris McNamara: And where did the act that took their life, where would that be?

Gary Muehlberg: Probably in the bedroom.

Det. Chris McNamara: Same time?

Gary Muehlberg: Mm-hmm.

Det. Chris McNamara: Same time? As the sex?

Gary Muehlberg: Yeah.

Det. Chris McNamara: In regards to that?

Gary Muehlberg: Yeah. There was no sex after death.

Det. Chris McNamara: Okay, good.

Gary Muehlberg: Oh, no.

Det. Chris McNamara: But it wasn't during a, a moment before the sex? There wasn't a fight or anything like that? Do you remember any?

Gary Muehlberg: No.

Det. Chris McNamara: And actually during intercourse, or during sexual contact, did the death occur?

Gary Muehlberg: Probably afterwards.

Det. Chris McNamara: After.

Gary Muehlberg: But don't hold me to that on all five, because, like I said, it's just one of them things. I don't know if I'll ever remember everything to satisfy y'all's curiosity, you know.

Det. Chris McNamara: And some questions we ask you, it's not necessarily we expect to hear the answer, but it's an effort to try to help [unclear: "the rock lines" / "the Rockland"].

Gary Muehlberg: And yes, I realize that the three letters I got, that's not a guarantee that this won't be a death penalty case.

Det. Jodi Weber: Well, I think from those three [unclear: "possibilities" / "parts"], it sure is.

Det. Chris McNamara: Yeah. They're not going to write that letter...

Det. Jodi Weber: No way.

Det. Chris McNamara: Exactly. They would never write that letter. They wouldn't come back off that.

Det. Jodi Weber: No.

Gary Muehlberg: That's another question that came up to mind a while back. Since all the crimes happened in my home, is it going to be like one court I go to, or do I got to go to each little municipality?

Det. Jodi Weber: We are not for sure on that. The prosecutors work out those details. But they're all the state of Missouri. It's all the same circuit courts.

Gary Muehlberg: Oh, yeah. So I don't know if that's... I mean, it's like, am I going to have to go before a magistrate each time to be sentenced individually, or...

Det. Jodi Weber: That's down the road, yeah. That's down the road. I can tell you the three prosecutors are working together and communicating together, and they're going to do this together, so.

Gary Muehlberg: I'm sure that they'll probably want to do them all at the same time. That would make a whole lot of sense financially...

Det. Jodi Weber: Oh, yeah.

Gary Muehlberg: As well as emotionally, for everybody involved.

Det. Jodi Weber: Yeah.

Gary Muehlberg: Including the staff down here, the DOC.

Det. Jodi Weber: Right. Right.

Gary Muehlberg: And they certainly know what [unclear: "you" / "to"] transported back and forth, back and forth.

Det. Jodi Weber: So I know we touched a little bit on it, and this came to mind when you were talking. After you had sex with them and took their life, we talked a little bit about whether they fought at all. Would you do anything to prevent them from fighting? Would you restrain them at all? I know you're a big guy yourself.

Gary Muehlberg: Yeah. I'm not sure why I would restrain them. But, like you said, one of them that was tied up or something, or had the [unclear: "littaker" / "little girl"; probably "ligature"] around her neck.

Det. Jodi Weber: Mm-hmm. Was bondage part of the sexual contact?

Gary Muehlberg: No. Never into that, no.

Det. Jodi Weber: Because the thought was, maybe it occurred during that type of sexual contact, that was an accidental death. Not accidental, but the bondage occurred, and then there was sex, and then death.

Gary Muehlberg: I don't believe so.

Det. Jodi Weber: So when would the bondage be applied to their bodies? At what point? It doesn't make sense to put it on once they're passed.

Gary Muehlberg: I don't know.

Det. Jodi Weber: To keep them from trying to run off?

Gary Muehlberg: Yeah. Or fight back, or...

Det. Jodi Weber: Well, yeah. So that's prior to their death. So we got a little bit established there. But was it prior to the sexual contact?

Gary Muehlberg: I don't believe so.

Det. Jodi Weber: Okay. So in between, somewhere in between sex acts, and then, you know, the death.

Det. Chris McNamara: You mentioned during other interviews you weren't much of a drug user or alcohol user. I think you said even when you went to clubs or bars, you'd have a, [unclear: "so through the line" (Whisper only)].

Gary Muehlberg: Yeah. I learned how to drink Scotch in undergrad school, and that was enough. Well, I drank, I mean, but it's kind of like, I would not drink beer that much when I was out at a bar or tavern, because to me it's like renting it. You drink two or three and you got to go to the bathroom. So why drink it...

Det. Chris McNamara: And pay for it.

Gary Muehlberg: Yeah.

Det. Chris McNamara: So that wasn't necessarily a factor in these behaviors, right? And it's certainly not a factor in the loss of memory.

Gary Muehlberg: No.

Det. Chris McNamara: Sometimes when we talk to people, victims, suspects, whoever they may be, the mind is really kind of tricky, okay? And to try to help people recollect things, there are certain things that occur on the outside that helps us remember things. Colors can be something. Where you were at the time. What was the other person doing at the time. But another one is smells. It's directly connected to our memory. Do you remember any smells during the time of their passing?

Gary Muehlberg: No. You mean like odors and stuff like that?

Det. Chris McNamara: Yeah. They go together many times.

Gary Muehlberg: Yeah.

Det. Chris McNamara: Not sure why. But do you remember anything like that?

Gary Muehlberg: Maybe that's why a couple of them sat outside my house for a while, because knowing there would be odors coming from...

Det. Chris McNamara: I agree, yeah.

Gary Muehlberg: It's like leaving spoiled meat out. It's going to stink up the house after a while.

Det. Chris McNamara: Eventually. But right after death, sometimes there's odors as well.

Gary Muehlberg: Yeah.

Det. Chris McNamara: Do you remember those odors?

Gary Muehlberg: No, sir, I don't.

Det. Chris McNamara: The days or moments after them passing, just pick any one of them in your memory. What were your thought processes?

Gary Muehlberg: Oh, undoubtedly a whole bunch of different... Fear, nervousness, restlessness. I mean, what kind of emotions does a person have when they realize what they've done is totally wrong? I mean, it's not content, it's not euphoria.

Det. Chris McNamara: Although the behavior was revisited at least five times, right?

Gary Muehlberg: Yeah.

Det. Chris McNamara: So was there a sense of satisfaction there?

Gary Muehlberg: Not that I was consciously aware of. It was... Go ahead.

Gary Muehlberg: Part of the problem I'm having dealing with this and other things in my past is part of my education.

Det. Chris McNamara: What do you mean?

Gary Muehlberg: It's difficult to talk to a therapist if you've been trained how to be a therapist. I have an undergraduate degree in psychology.

Det. Chris McNamara: Okay. So...

Gary Muehlberg: So you know what I mean? Trying to get these memories back.

Det. Chris McNamara: Oh, yeah, yeah.

Gary Muehlberg: I wish you had a magic key.

Det. Chris McNamara: Where'd you go to school? Where did you go to school?

Gary Muehlberg: Central Methodist, in Fayette, and Warrensburg.

Det. Chris McNamara: Oh, I went to Warrensburg.

Gary Muehlberg: Probably after I did.

Det. Chris McNamara: Is that where you went for your graduate degree?

Gary Muehlberg: I didn't get, Central Missouri State, I didn't get my master's. I started there.

Det. Chris McNamara: Okay.

Gary Muehlberg: And I graduated from Central in '77.

Det. Chris McNamara: What rank were you when you got out of the Marine Corps?

Gary Muehlberg: Uh, lance corporal.

Det. Chris McNamara: Did you get an honorable discharge? Did you get an honorable discharge?

Gary Muehlberg: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Mainly due to being a sole surviving son. I was in, like, right at a year.

Det. Chris McNamara: So there was no chance of going to Vietnam?

Gary Muehlberg: No, I was under 21. And being a sole surviving son, they could not send me overseas, unless, I wasn't old enough, I guess, to sign my own waiver. And the parents, after burying one son, they weren't going to let me go.

Det. Chris McNamara: Right.

Det. Jodi Weber: You know, there's a common denominator in some of these things, and it just came to me: were you into any kind of candle wax? Did you ever burn any kind of candles, or anything that might be connected to any of these cases?

Gary Muehlberg: Not that I can recall. I mean, during the holidays, yeah, there's candles. But in reference to this, I can't remember. Can't recall.

Det. Jodi Weber: Did you burn candles quite a bit in the house?

Gary Muehlberg: No.

Det. Jodi Weber: Okay.

Gary Muehlberg: No. Not with little kids or animals running around.

Det. Jodi Weber: Yeah. Would you have burned any candles to kind of set a mood or anything like that, if you brought somebody to the house?

Gary Muehlberg: No.

Det. Chris McNamara: So, going back to all these years that you've given thought to these things, what are some details you haven't told us yet that you had thought, memories of?

Gary Muehlberg: I've pretty well talked about things I've remembered. I mean, I'm sure there's things that might come up, or are suppressed, you know.

Det. Chris McNamara: Maybe the passing of each female could be something that you may not recall right now. Although, as a male, the sex is something we remember. Do you remember the sexual contact? Just having sex with them, you know, it's like, all right, was it, was it rough? Was it kinky? Was it, [unclear: "when, I don't think, when" (Whisper) / "wasn't I don't think I wanted to kill them" (captions)], were they into that? Physical satisfaction, emotional satisfaction during a sex act, [unclear: "a force" / "any force"], but not a meaningful relationship.

Gary Muehlberg: No. Right. Yeah.

Det. Chris McNamara: Was there ever a time when there was force, sexual contact?

Gary Muehlberg: No.

Det. Chris McNamara: Did you keep anything from those individuals? That's not uncommon, that's a, I don't know, a few mementos?

Gary Muehlberg: No.

Det. Chris McNamara: Well, sometimes, yeah, clothing.

Gary Muehlberg: Um, no.

Det. Chris McNamara: Like you were asking the first time, like pictures, or a scrapbook, or...

Gary Muehlberg: No. Nothing like that. Nothing physical.

Det. Chris McNamara: Would they leave anything behind after you disposed of their body? Would you, they leave anything behind, and you, what would you do with that stuff?

Gary Muehlberg: Not that I'm aware of. I mean, it's like, like I can't recall what happened to the, all the clothes, I mean.

Det. Chris McNamara: Were they thrown out with the trash? Were they disposed of with them? Were they redressed, or...?

Gary Muehlberg: I mean, just, this ain't gonna make sense, but I wish there were just one. Everything could focus on just one thing. Because there's so many different individuals that things cross over.

Det. Chris McNamara: So things could be confused with another, because they're similar, right? Same location, same scenario, female prostitute.

Gary Muehlberg: Yeah.

Det. Chris McNamara: Do you still have their pictures with us? Maybe we can start focusing on one, and then stick with her until we have exhausted those possibilities, and then move on to the next. Because not only do we analyze and go over these interviews, for the prosecutors...

Gary Muehlberg: Okay. Oh, yeah, I'm sure. Yeah. So are they going to be satisfied on the information provided?

Det. Chris McNamara: Mm-hmm. I think it's falling short, although...

Gary Muehlberg: Yeah. [57:14 to 57:18: no speech; pictures are laid out.]

Gary Muehlberg: Now, you showed me this picture before.

Det. Jodi Weber: Yeah.

Gary Muehlberg: Yeah. She's pretty.

Det. Jodi Weber: Yeah.

Gary Muehlberg: She looks sad as hell in the picture.

Det. Jodi Weber: Of course. Well, [unclear: "come on shot" (Whisper only)]. Yeah. It's not the best of times. And we kind of, you know, we discussed it's hard to remember those details on every specific case. But if you remember a detail of any of them, that we can't maybe pick out which girl that was with, but...

Gary Muehlberg: Like, I, I [unclear: "don't choose" / "I'll choose"] one through five, which specific number?

Det. Jodi Weber: Well, I'm not asking you to pick which girl it was. But what would be that one detail that you're thinking of? We're not going to ask, you know, if you can't say it was which one of the five, we understand that. But is there a detail you can remember of any of the five?

Det. Jodi Weber: Do you recall having conversation with her?

Gary Muehlberg: Not in detail of what we talked about. I mean, she does look familiar.

Det. Jodi Weber: Yeah.

Gary Muehlberg: But that's kind of obvious, I mean.

Det. Jodi Weber: Sure. Anything particular about her body you recall?

Gary Muehlberg: No.

Gary Muehlberg: No. You were saying at one time that one of them had a tattoo or something.

Det. Jodi Weber: Mm-hmm.

Gary Muehlberg: I think you showed me a picture of it.

Det. Jodi Weber: Mm-hmm.

Gary Muehlberg: But now I still can't remember which one it was.

Det. Jodi Weber: Mm-hmm. You know, with the autopsy. So do you remember how you took her life?

Gary Muehlberg: No, ma'am.

Det. Jodi Weber: And she's the one in the box.

Gary Muehlberg: Okay.

Det. Jodi Weber: And you mentioned here, when we got here, when we first walked in, you mentioned the box being behind your house.

Gary Muehlberg: Yeah. It's the one you showed me the picture of.

Det. Jodi Weber: Mm-hmm.

Gary Muehlberg: It was in the back of a pickup truck.

Det. Jodi Weber: Do you remember that box behind your house?

Gary Muehlberg: No. I really haven't thought that much about that. I mean, it looked like a piece of furniture, you know. [unclear: "Make sure plywood box" (both); perhaps "Maybe a plywood box"] wrapped in something.

Det. Jodi Weber: You said something about a pickup truck?

Gary Muehlberg: It was kept in the back of a pickup truck, the picture you showed me, when you found them.

Det. Jodi Weber: When it was recovered.

Gary Muehlberg: When it was recovered, yeah.

Det. Jodi Weber: Oh, okay. That's the picture we showed.

Det. Jodi Weber: Where did that piece of furniture come from?

Gary Muehlberg: Probably my bedroom or living room.

Det. Jodi Weber: Was it part of a set?

Gary Muehlberg: Probably part of the bedroom set.

Det. Chris McNamara: Because when I'm watching that video I described earlier, there's furniture in there.

Gary Muehlberg: The bedroom wasn't that big to hold all the furniture that came with the set, I know that.

Det. Chris McNamara: So was one of the pieces separate?

Gary Muehlberg: It might have been sitting in the living room, or in the basement, or something.

Det. Jodi Weber: Now, where did that idea come from? You know what I'm saying? You got a cabinet, and you almost have to hollow out the drawer, the insides of the drawers, right? Where did that idea come from, to put it in that, instead of just making a box?

Gary Muehlberg: I don't know. Maybe after the drawers were taken apart, it was still flimsy, and [unclear: "went whole together" (both)].

Det. Jodi Weber: Um, okay. So, yeah, once you take out those supports, cross beams, it starts to get flimsy. So if you put her in there, where was she before she was in there? If you had to put her in there to get rid of her, where was she before she went in there?

Gary Muehlberg: Probably in bed.

Det. Jodi Weber: So how much time goes between her passing and she goes in the cabinetry?

Gary Muehlberg: I have no idea.

Det. Jodi Weber: Can't be that long.

Gary Muehlberg: No.

Det. Jodi Weber: No decomposition going on, though. That much time.

Gary Muehlberg: Okay.

Gary Muehlberg: I don't know, how long does it take for a body to start decomposing?

Det. Jodi Weber: A lot of factors there.

Gary Muehlberg: Yeah. Temperature.

Det. Jodi Weber: Temperature, yeah. And rigor mortis.

Det. Chris McNamara: Having those bodies decomposing inside these packages, was that a concern, about visitors that came over, associates that came over?

Gary Muehlberg: I'm sure that entered into it.

Det. Chris McNamara: And we asked why this victim and the one in the barrel were outside the house...

Gary Muehlberg: And the others were taken out of the house probably that night, that morning.

Det. Chris McNamara: So in case family, friends, whatever came over.

Det. Jodi Weber: Was there ever a time, regarding her or somebody else, that you had two bodies at one time? And was that a concern?

Gary Muehlberg: [unclear: "I almost like them, Jesus." / "like oh geez"] I don't, I don't believe so. I mean, I wasn't collecting them.

Det. Jodi Weber: Right. I mean, not purposely, but sometimes, just timing-wise, was there one time that there was two people there?

Gary Muehlberg: Oh, probably the one in the barrel. She sat behind my house for a couple of months, maybe. A long time.

Det. Chris McNamara: Was it possible that they stayed alive a lot longer after the sexual contact, before their death? Was there ever a time they stayed?

Gary Muehlberg: No.

Det. Chris McNamara: Not in bondage or anything?

Gary Muehlberg: Yeah, I guess maybe in bondage, but after sexual contact, I don't think they stayed on their own.

Det. Chris McNamara: What do you mean?

Gary Muehlberg: I think they lost their lives probably pretty soon afterwards. Not like two or three or four days.

Det. Chris McNamara: And bondage was not part of the sexual contact? It was just straight sex?

Gary Muehlberg: Is that what you mean?

Det. Chris McNamara: Mm-hmm.

Gary Muehlberg: So why didn't I take them back where I found them or picked them up?

Det. Jodi Weber: Well, I think you did on a couple times, right?

Gary Muehlberg: Yeah.

Det. Chris McNamara: It was just straight sex? Yeah.

Gary Muehlberg: Mm-hmm. It was just straight sex, like normal.

Det. Chris McNamara: Yeah.

Det. Jodi Weber: Do you recall her right before she died?

Gary Muehlberg: No.

Det. Jodi Weber: Did she say anything to you?

Gary Muehlberg: Not that I can recall. Not that I can recall.

Det. Jodi Weber: Did you give any more thought to the box? Because we talked a little bit about that last time.

Gary Muehlberg: Just [unclear: "made out" / "made out of"] from what I remember, the photograph, what I remember from it, is like the exterior box, which is a plywood, built around a piece of furniture.

Det. Jodi Weber: Do you remember making the box, or where you got the box?

Gary Muehlberg: I would have to guess, yeah, I probably made it, because it looked like it pretty well fit the piece of furniture. I mean, it wasn't like a lot of extra room in it.

Det. Jodi Weber: Good point.

Gary Muehlberg: Yeah. It couldn't have been too that big, or it wouldn't have fit in my van.

Det. Jodi Weber: Because after you take the life of any one of these ladies, you would have to think of something, or how you're gonna dispose of the body.

Gary Muehlberg: I mean, I didn't plan all this out before I picked them up. It's something that transpired during or right after the sex.

Det. Jodi Weber: Mm-hmm.

Gary Muehlberg: It wasn't like, well, I'm gonna go find somebody so I can kill them and dump their body.

Det. Jodi Weber: No. No. But after you would take their life, you'd be like, I have to find something to put the body in, after you would.

Gary Muehlberg: Yeah. Right. I'm sure that after I took their life it was like, expedite getting rid of them somehow, or getting them out of my house. Sitting in a container, that, being in construction, I always had construction material sitting around.

Det. Jodi Weber: Okay.

Gary Muehlberg: You know.

Det. Jodi Weber: The process of moving them after they pass to wherever container, for instance, hers was the dresser in the box. That process of moving the body. Pretty hard to do. It's dead weight, right?

Gary Muehlberg: Oh, yeah. It's dead weight.

Det. Jodi Weber: Do you remember that? Do you remember that process? You got to get them out of that, or from wherever they're at, the floor?

Gary Muehlberg: Yeah. Lifting them up, putting them in a container.

Det. Jodi Weber: Do you remember putting her in, physically?

Gary Muehlberg: Somewhat, but not totally. I mean, I remember placing her into a piece of furniture, but she didn't seem that heavy.

Det. Jodi Weber: Was she still limber at that time?

Gary Muehlberg: Yeah.

Det. Jodi Weber: No rigor?

Gary Muehlberg: No.

Det. Jodi Weber: Okay. So that's...

Gary Muehlberg: I don't think any of them had any rigor.

Det. Jodi Weber: So it was soon after death.

Gary Muehlberg: Yeah.

Det. Jodi Weber: Was it difficult to get her in the container?

Gary Muehlberg: I'm thinking she might have still been breathing.

Det. Jodi Weber: Anything said?

Gary Muehlberg: Not that I can recall.

Det. Jodi Weber: If she was still breathing, at what point did she stop breathing? What did you do to stop the breathing?

Gary Muehlberg: Choked her out. I said, I don't, I don't remember if I strangled her or choked her.

Det. Jodi Weber: What's the difference between those two, for you?

Gary Muehlberg: Choking is more or less like with your hands.

Det. Jodi Weber: Yeah.

Gary Muehlberg: Strangling is with some kind of material. And suffocating is covering your breathing up.

Det. Jodi Weber: Was she strong during that time?

Gary Muehlberg: No.

Det. Jodi Weber: Why?

Gary Muehlberg: I don't know.

Det. Jodi Weber: Was there anything restraining her? If she was tied up, she wouldn't have been struggling much. Was she tied up?

Gary Muehlberg: I'm thinking she was.

Det. Jodi Weber: With what?

Gary Muehlberg: Hmm?

Det. Jodi Weber: With what?

Gary Muehlberg: Some kind of shoelace, or twine, or rope, or something.

Det. Jodi Weber: Why couldn't she talk?

Det. Jodi Weber: Was there something preventing her from talking?

Gary Muehlberg: With you asking that question, it makes me think there might have been.

Det. Jodi Weber: I know. Careful about the wording.

Gary Muehlberg: But you'll have to be specific about that.

Det. Jodi Weber: No, I mean, with you asking that question, was she...

Gary Muehlberg: Oh, you can't. Okay.

Det. Jodi Weber: Yeah. You're here to ask...

Gary Muehlberg: Yeah, I'm here to answer.

Det. Jodi Weber: Okay.

Gary Muehlberg: I don't remember if she was or not.

Det. Jodi Weber: But you do recall, if she had something around her neck, would she be able to talk? Whether it's a hand or a rope or... So we've gone through some details about that. At what point in the house were you at that moment, during all of these events? At what minute? Where were you inside the house during all these events? Which room?

Gary Muehlberg: Probably in the living room, right outside the bedroom. You said you've seen the floor plan of the house.

Det. Chris McNamara: I did see it.

Gary Muehlberg: The bedroom wasn't that big.

Det. Chris McNamara: No. Right.

Det. Jodi Weber: What brought you from the bedroom... I'm assuming, did the sexual contact occur in the bedroom?

Gary Muehlberg: Yeah.

Det. Jodi Weber: Okay. So why, from where sex occurred to where death occurs? What happened?

Gary Muehlberg: I don't know. Or I don't remember what. I'm not sure if she was deceased before I moved her from the bed to the box, or she passed away somewhere in between.

Det. Jodi Weber: Was the box prepared before she got there?

Gary Muehlberg: No. There's, it's like, I'm almost sure none of these were planned out prior to this. It's just something popped, snapped, fizzled.

Det. Jodi Weber: I only ask it for on this one because there's some preparation that you have to do, to the cabinet, to do to the dresser, to get a human in there. The guts, you got to get the interior of the drawers out of there. Was that prepared before she got there?

Gary Muehlberg: No.

Det. Jodi Weber: After? So it wasn't...

Gary Muehlberg: Apparently, yeah. If it wasn't before, it had to be after, or while she was there.

Det. Jodi Weber: While she was there. Yeah. And was she breathing when she first went in there?

Gary Muehlberg: Went in with the box? I don't really recall if she was or not. She might have been.

Det. Jodi Weber: And do you remember where the box was in the house when you put her in the box?

Gary Muehlberg: Yeah. Right outside the bedroom door.

Det. Jodi Weber: And what about moving that box? I mean, after she was in it.

Gary Muehlberg: Mm-hmm. Moved it to either the basement or the back of the house. Because a walkout basement. Flat backyard, kind of.

Det. Jodi Weber: How long did she stay out there, then?

Gary Muehlberg: I'm not real sure.

Det. Jodi Weber: After being moved to the backyard, or you're saying...

Gary Muehlberg: Mm-hmm.

Det. Jodi Weber: And then she winds up on the side of the highway.

Gary Muehlberg: Okay.

Det. Jodi Weber: Does she go anywhere, any other storage or places?

Gary Muehlberg: No. Only those two, but in the vehicle. That's it.

Det. Jodi Weber: Was she hard to move in the box?

Gary Muehlberg: No, with the two-wheel hand truck.

Det. Jodi Weber: What do you mean by that?

Gary Muehlberg: I think it was in the one picture you showed me of the house, with Doc.

Det. Jodi Weber: I showed you?

Gary Muehlberg: Like a moving dolly. A warehouse cart.

Det. Chris McNamara: [unclear: "You're one of the side of the house" (both)]

Gary Muehlberg: Oh.

Gary Muehlberg: Yeah, right there.

Det. Chris McNamara: Well, that's a two-wheel dolly. Is that the two-wheel dolly that you moved her with?

Gary Muehlberg: Yeah. Two-wheel hand truck, two-wheel dolly.

Det. Chris McNamara: But it's the same dolly? Not similar? It's the one of yours?

Gary Muehlberg: Yeah.

Det. Chris McNamara: So. [unclear: "More than every mother really" / "Morton Neely must have really"] thought something when they saw the building, the outside of that. You got a disaster. So you say the living room was upstairs in the house, right?

Gary Muehlberg: Yeah, it was a one floor.

Det. Chris McNamara: Okay. And then it was a walkout basement. Right. So how'd you get the box from upstairs, from the kitchen, down to the basement? So you would use the dolly?

Gary Muehlberg: Yeah.

Det. Chris McNamara: Down the steps?

Gary Muehlberg: You know that, or I drove the box down. Because it's not really a moving dolly, more like just a warehouse type.

Det. Chris McNamara: Yeah.

Gary Muehlberg: It's not like it has a strap on it or nothing.

Det. Chris McNamara: Okay.

Det. Jodi Weber: What name do you remember for her, even if it was a street name?

Gary Muehlberg: I don't.

Det. Jodi Weber: Did you have sexual contact with her before the day she died? Other days?

Det. Jodi Weber: Did you see her on the streets up there?

Gary Muehlberg: No. Not that I can recall. Not her.

Det. Jodi Weber: She's kind of easily remembered, you know. Very young.

Gary Muehlberg: She's pretty.

Det. Jodi Weber: She doesn't necessarily...

Gary Muehlberg: You know, that's pretty good proximity of the time frame.

Det. Jodi Weber: She doesn't have the appearance of those working on the street, you know?

Det. Chris McNamara: I'm already... uh, go ahead.

Det. Jodi Weber: I was going to say, which vehicle would you use when you went and picked up the girls?

Gary Muehlberg: The van.

Det. Jodi Weber: Okay. And what color was the van?

Gary Muehlberg: Uh, not really brown, like a, uh, I don't know what color they call it. Not like a chocolate brown, or [unclear: "the bad color there"], like a bronze type.

Det. Jodi Weber: Bronze?

Gary Muehlberg: Yeah.

Det. Jodi Weber: Okay. What was the interior color?

Gary Muehlberg: Mm-hmm.

Det. Jodi Weber: What was the interior?

Gary Muehlberg: It was a conversion van.

Det. Jodi Weber: What color was the interior?

Gary Muehlberg: Tan.

Det. Jodi Weber: Okay.

Gary Muehlberg: It had four captain seats and a rear bench seat, carpeted throughout. It was a, you know, a factory conversion van.

Det. Jodi Weber: What make was that one?

Gary Muehlberg: A Ford.

Det. Jodi Weber: A Ford.

Gary Muehlberg: Yeah. [unclear: "Fixer repair daily" (both)].

Det. Jodi Weber: Anything we haven't asked you that you think is important, with her?

Gary Muehlberg: Mm-hmm.

Det. Jodi Weber: Anything we haven't asked you that you can remember?

Gary Muehlberg: No. No, ma'am. I wish there was.

Det. Jodi Weber: Yes, there is.

Gary Muehlberg: And we talked a little bit about smell, and that she had been around for a while, you said. But if it was like, you know, wintertime, and she's sitting outside, I don't know if there was an odor coming from the box or not. I mean, I didn't smell anything. The neighbors didn't. It wasn't an odor when she was transported in the van. When I'm out walking my German Shepherd, if there's any carcass in the area, that dog's on top of it.

Det. Chris McNamara: Did you ever have any issues with the dogs being all sniffy and around and all that? Tell them to get away or whatever?

Gary Muehlberg: No.

Det. Chris McNamara: Was that a separate area than where the dog would be running?

Gary Muehlberg: Dog only went out... I don't think I had a dog that wasn't taken out on a leash, because there was a fenced yard, but it wasn't completely a hundred percent fenced off.

Det. Chris McNamara: Okay.

Gary Muehlberg: I mean, normally I took him out the front door.

Det. Jodi Weber: When you picked her up that night, or that day, what was she wearing?

Gary Muehlberg: I have no idea.

Det. Jodi Weber: Any colors?

Gary Muehlberg: I have no idea.

Det. Jodi Weber: I know that's quite a detail to remember, but sometimes that's what catches our eye.

Gary Muehlberg: Yeah. Sometimes.

Det. Jodi Weber: Would, um, after you took their life, and you said put them in a container, would you do anything to the body before you put it in the container?

Gary Muehlberg: Do anything like what?

Det. Jodi Weber: Um, would you just, how would you, how would you transport the body into the container?

Gary Muehlberg: I mean, moving them from like the bed to the container, lifting them up or sliding them off the mattress into the box. But nothing more than that, I mean.

Det. Jodi Weber: I noticed, like in the picture, there was no, like, you didn't... Did you normally have sheets on your bed?

Gary Muehlberg: Yeah.

Det. Jodi Weber: Okay.

Gary Muehlberg: I mean, the sheets were green, striped. Now, the mattresses are striped too. And there were different colors and textures of sheets. I mean, solid ones, large ones.

Det. Jodi Weber: So you had all different kinds of sheets?

Gary Muehlberg: Don't most people?

Det. Jodi Weber: No. I have like one set.

Gary Muehlberg: Huh?

Det. Jodi Weber: I have like one set. I wash, put back on, wash, put back on.

Gary Muehlberg: Sorry.

Det. Jodi Weber: Okay. So you had several different... You mentioned green stripe. Did you have sheets like that too, or?

Gary Muehlberg: Yeah. With matching pillowcases.

Det. Jodi Weber: Okay.

Gary Muehlberg: But I think they were bolder, wider stripes. The mattress was more thinner stripes.

Det. Jodi Weber: Okay. That's the way he mentions color. Something that you recall?

Gary Muehlberg: Yeah.

Det. Jodi Weber: Yeah. Do you remember any other sets of sheets that would have been with the girls?

Gary Muehlberg: I don't know if they were, the sheets were with them, or they were left behind and I got rid of them, or washed them, or threw them away, or whatever.

Det. Jodi Weber: So did you usually have a pattern? I mean, did you pick out your sheets? You said you had floral, stripe.

Gary Muehlberg: They were probably left over from a previous marriage, or college days, or a gift from family.

Det. Jodi Weber: Okay. Gotcha.

Gary Muehlberg: I've had family working at different kind of stores, and things were on sale, so they pick up a set of this or a set of that. Mom and my aunt and one girlfriend, they couldn't pass the sale up. Typical female.

Det. Jodi Weber: I understand. Yes, I understand.

Gary Muehlberg: Drive clear across town to save seven cents on a bottle of ketchup. It costs 25 cents in gas.

Det. Jodi Weber: Yeah. [unclear: "your own gilkey" (Whisper only)]

Gary Muehlberg: Yeah.

Det. Jodi Weber: And so, anything else you remember? About her? Other than her going into that package, what else went into the package?

Gary Muehlberg: Maybe... Maybe her clothes. I'm not really that... speculating. I'm not sure.

Det. Jodi Weber: You said you would use rope?

Gary Muehlberg: Rope or twine or shoelace, you know.

Det. Jodi Weber: Okay.

Interviewer: [unclear: "Okay, you want to top it off." (Whisper only)] [1:26:28 to 1:26:52: no speech in either machine source.]

Det. Chris McNamara: Where was she left?

Gary Muehlberg: Mm-hmm.

Det. Chris McNamara: Where was she left at?

Gary Muehlberg: I guess... I don't know if this is the one from Maryland Heights or the one up in the Troy area.

Det. Chris McNamara: Were they similar?

Gary Muehlberg: Mm-hmm.

Det. Chris McNamara: Were they similar in appearance?

Gary Muehlberg: Like I said, I don't remember which was first, second, third, last. I don't remember what she was... Well, since one of them was in a box along the highway, this one had to be the mattress or the trash can in Maryland Heights, I think.

Det. Chris McNamara: Do you remember her at least, [unclear: "at Lee Street" / "Street day"]? I mean, you didn't say, hey, you, this is the one... When you're in the house with her, was there any type of reference [unclear: "playing for her" (captions)]?

Gary Muehlberg: Not that I can recall.

Det. Chris McNamara: Where did the sexual contact occur with her?

Gary Muehlberg: In my home. In the bedroom.

Det. Chris McNamara: Do you remember the sex with her?

Gary Muehlberg: Sort of. But nothing in detail, I mean.

Det. Chris McNamara: So was she in Maryland Heights, or the Troy area?

Gary Muehlberg: It's Maryland Heights, yeah.

Det. Chris McNamara: Okay.

Det. Chris McNamara: Did you smoke, Gary?

Gary Muehlberg: Mm-hmm.

Det. Chris McNamara: Did you smoke? What kind of cigarettes? What kind of cigarettes? Marlboro Lights, or straight Marlboro? Like the Marlboro Reds?

Gary Muehlberg: I'm not gonna say no. I might have, you know. I normally smoked those Marlboro Lights, but then a lot depend upon if the vending machine or whatever was out of them, you know, or if they had a sale on them somewhere, by the carton.

Det. Chris McNamara: How did she die?

Gary Muehlberg: Uh, strangulation.

Det. Chris McNamara: Strangulation. What was the device?

Gary Muehlberg: I don't know if it was my hands or some kind of rope.

Correctional Officer: Count time. [unclear: "How is it?"]

Gary Muehlberg: I'm still here.

Det. Jodi Weber: Do you need to use the bathroom or anything, Gary?

Gary Muehlberg: Maybe in a little bit. Hopefully this won't go on much longer.

Det. Jodi Weber: Yeah. You need a break?

Gary Muehlberg: Oh, yeah. Okay. They want to know if I'm still here?

Det. Jodi Weber: No, they were looking for the lieutenant. They thought he was in his office. Did you want, were you hungry now?

Gary Muehlberg: No.

Det. Jodi Weber: [unclear: "Don't McDonald's. Don't McDonald's." (Whisper only)]

Gary Muehlberg: My teeth aren't glued. I'm sorry.

Det. Jodi Weber: Oh, okay.

Det. Chris McNamara: When she was placed into that container, the plastic one, was that difficult?

Gary Muehlberg: She was still limber. I don't think she's that big.

Det. Chris McNamara: Weight-wise? Do you think she was alive when she went into the container?

Gary Muehlberg: Probably not.

Det. Chris McNamara: Now, with her, do you recall any bondage? Any, uh...

Gary Muehlberg: [unclear: "for sure" (Whisper only)] No, I don't remember any bondage with any of the [unclear: "good things" / "other victory"; perhaps "other victims"].

Det. Chris McNamara: What were you driving when you dropped her off down there by the apartments?

Gary Muehlberg: Uh, the van.

Det. Chris McNamara: Okay. [unclear: "Did I see it?" / "if I see it"; perhaps "Did anyone see it?"]

Gary Muehlberg: Not that I'm aware of. It was still dark out. It was still dark out.

Det. Chris McNamara: Yeah.

Gary Muehlberg: Around the midnight hour, late at night.

Det. Chris McNamara: Was it in correspondence or correlation with your shift over there at the Moolah?

Gary Muehlberg: I think it's three-quarters of a mile.

Det. Chris McNamara: Yeah, it's close. Why that area?

Gary Muehlberg: I don't know.

Det. Chris McNamara: Random? Random? Was there anyone with you? Was there anyone with you when you dropped her off?

Gary Muehlberg: No. It might have been random, or like subconsciously, since I worked out there at Moolah Temple, the van was familiar in that part of town, you know.

Det. Chris McNamara: Remember how it was kind of elevated, in correlation to that road? Page was, at the time.

Gary Muehlberg: I think Page was elevated.

Det. Chris McNamara: Yeah, that's what I mean. And you can look down to that road. And it does look like a service road, but, yeah.

Gary Muehlberg: I think I had to drive through the apartment complex, because the part of the road where I left her was, I don't think there's any dwellings or buildings. Mainly woods.

Det. Chris McNamara: Okay. Do you recall that going to the news? Being found?

Gary Muehlberg: No.

Det. Chris McNamara: I'm sorry, did you say you remember putting her in the trash can?

Gary Muehlberg: Mm-hmm.

Det. Chris McNamara: Do you remember her having anything on? When we talked about colors.

Gary Muehlberg: Yeah. No. I'm sure she had some clothes on, but I don't remember the color.

Det. Chris McNamara: Which clothes on? Tops or bottoms?

Gary Muehlberg: Probably tops.

Det. Chris McNamara: Was she a smoker?

Gary Muehlberg: I don't recall. She might have been, but I don't, can't say one way or the other.

Det. Chris McNamara: Something that people share is smoke time, many times in life.

Gary Muehlberg: Yeah.

Det. Chris McNamara: How long of a time from picking her up, wherever you found her, to the time you had sex? How much time do you think would go by?

Gary Muehlberg: As much time as it took to drive from South St. Louis to my home.

Det. Chris McNamara: Okay.

Gary Muehlberg: Probably less than an hour.

Det. Chris McNamara: So, the sex: time is money, right? So sex probably occurred quickly.

Gary Muehlberg: Mm-hmm.

Det. Chris McNamara: That's the whole purpose, right? What about death? How much time between the sexual contact and death?

Gary Muehlberg: Probably not that long.

Det. Chris McNamara: Well, I'm being specific with her. How much time?

Gary Muehlberg: Probably an hour or two.

Det. Chris McNamara: Was there any conversation going on? Did she have some...

Gary Muehlberg: Oh, I'm sure there was, but I can't recall what we were talking about.

Det. Chris McNamara: Any use of, was she using any drugs at the time, in the house?

Gary Muehlberg: Oh, not in the house, that I'm aware of.

Det. Chris McNamara: It would, you would, that would register, right? Because you're not a drug user, in the house. And where does the death occur with her? Where in the house?

Gary Muehlberg: In the bedroom. That was for the bedroom, for sure.

Det. Chris McNamara: Mm-hmm. Okay.

Gary Muehlberg: Well, I had basically one bedroom.

Det. Chris McNamara: Right. But remember, we talked about the other [unclear: "room" / "girl"], it kind of happened...

Gary Muehlberg: In the bedroom.

Det. Chris McNamara: Okay.

Gary Muehlberg: I mean, that's where the sex happened.

Det. Chris McNamara: No, the death. Where does the death occur with her?

Gary Muehlberg: In the bedroom.

Det. Chris McNamara: But does she have any clothes on when she dies?

Gary Muehlberg: Not that I can really recall. Maybe a top.

Det. Chris McNamara: Does she struggle?

Gary Muehlberg: No. If she did, it wasn't that much.

Det. Chris McNamara: Do you remember taking her life? Do you remember taking her life? Not the exact minute or second, but the actions leading up to it.

Gary Muehlberg: I mean, I don't really remember any detail of any of the five at the instant of death, when they, you know, became non-living.

Det. Chris McNamara: So for her to be placed into the trash can, where does that take place? In a bedroom? You've got to bring the trash can up. You've got to bring the trash can into the bedroom. And then, um, how does she go in there? Kind of describe that. The method. How do you physically get her in there?

Gary Muehlberg: Lifting her up, like carrying, and placing her on top of the trash can, and lifting the shoulders and the legs up together, and she'd slide down.

Det. Chris McNamara: Okay. So, butt down.

Gary Muehlberg: Yeah.

Det. Chris McNamara: Does she fit? Does she fit? Does she fit in the trash can?

Gary Muehlberg: Yeah. Yeah.

Det. Chris McNamara: Have any issues with the trash can?

Gary Muehlberg: Issues like what?

Det. Chris McNamara: Like Mike talked about it earlier. Was there a lid?

Gary Muehlberg: I'm sure it was, at one point.

Det. Chris McNamara: Well, you know what I'm referring to. When she's in it, was there a lid placed on her?

Gary Muehlberg: Probably so.

Det. Chris McNamara: Think about when you arrive at that place off the roadway, when she's pulled out of the van. Try to think back. Is she coming out the side door of the van?

Gary Muehlberg: Side.

Det. Chris McNamara: And you said there was captain chairs. Does that trash can, you know, fit? Or is one of the captain chairs gone?

Gary Muehlberg: It fits.

Det. Chris McNamara: When it comes out of there, think back. Was there a lid at that moment?

Gary Muehlberg: See, I don't know if I lifted her out or just pushed the trash can out, and then I drove off. I don't know if the trash can was upright or laying on its side. I don't recall that detail.

Gary Muehlberg: I do remember reading something, or hearing on TV, where somebody was out walking or jogging and smelt something, and went to investigate, and found the remains in a trash can.

Det. Chris McNamara: Now, you're referring to either a news story, newspaper story. When did that occur? When do you remember seeing that information? Was that right after, or years later?

Gary Muehlberg: [unclear: "One year later" / "one years later"] Yeah, right at the [unclear: "discount" / "Disco"].

Det. Chris McNamara: Yeah. Okay. So it was within a week or two after?

Gary Muehlberg: Yeah.

Det. Chris McNamara: Were you like, oh, there's, there she is?

Gary Muehlberg: Yeah. I can't, can't remember if there was a trash can lid on her. [unclear: "Buy it." (both)]

Det. Chris McNamara: Where did you first meet her?

Gary Muehlberg: South St. Louis, specifically. Just over there. I don't know if it was on the streets or a restaurant or...

Det. Chris McNamara: I went by her, the one address that she used to be on, California. Is it California that you...

Gary Muehlberg: Yeah. It was like a, they're set up like duplex doors in the front. I guess one goes up and one goes down, or something like that. Yeah, it was on a corner, the apartment complex that (former wife, name withheld) and I lived in when we got married. It was on California and Keokuk.

Det. Chris McNamara: So, using that as a reference point, do you remember where you ran into her?

Gary Muehlberg: No.

Det. Chris McNamara: I might already have asked you this, but did you have sexual contact with her on another occasion, before this whole thing?

Gary Muehlberg: I might have. I'm not real sure, one way or the other. Maybe that's why one of them, or maybe two or three, felt comfortable going back to my home, because they were familiar with me and I was familiar with them.

Det. Chris McNamara: Right. And that can occur just with humans, right? [unclear: "who get a report about that" / "we get a report built"; probably "we build a rapport"] Now, one thing that's important: typically, right before sexual contact would occur with a prostitute, there's got to be a settlement on how much it's going to cost. Do you remember that with her?

Gary Muehlberg: Not specifically.

Det. Chris McNamara: Okay.

Gary Muehlberg: Yeah. At the time, it was like somewhere around thirty-five, forty dollars.

Det. Chris McNamara: Yeah. And a lot of times, like you said, they would get it before. You know, um, do you take the money back after the sex?

Gary Muehlberg: Mmm.

Det. Chris McNamara: How much time goes between placing her in the trash can and dropping the trash can off?

Gary Muehlberg: An hour or two. That was relatively quick on that one. I mean, it might have been an hour, right? I wasn't timing it. But not days. Not like the barrel and the wooden box.

Det. Chris McNamara: Yeah.

Det. Chris McNamara: Why the trash can on her?

Gary Muehlberg: Hmm?

Det. Chris McNamara: Why use a trash can with that one?

Gary Muehlberg: Why not? I mean, it was handy. Something was there. Simple as that.

Det. Chris McNamara: Yeah.

Gary Muehlberg: It's kind of like, why a trash can, mattresses, a wooden box? You know, why not?

Det. Chris McNamara: Dump them out of the trash can where they were left, and take the trash can somewhere else, right? You know, or why a container at all?

Gary Muehlberg: Yeah, that's true. Might be conspicuous to see somebody carrying somebody out of a...

Det. Chris McNamara: Yeah.

Gary Muehlberg: Might be just as simple as that. Could be as simple as that, or complicated as hell. I mean, so, go back to one of my "why"s. Why even do it the first time, let alone the fifth time? I mean, there are similarities. They're victims, they're deceased, but there's so many things that aren't similar to them, you know.

Det. Chris McNamara: Did you ever receive any type of sexual gratification with the process of death? Was that ever a factor? Because it seems to be the common thing. Not only the sex, but the loss of life.

Gary Muehlberg: No. Nothing like that.

Det. Chris McNamara: And you said there was not necessarily a fight. They didn't anger you. You don't recall that. And they kept the money, right?

Gary Muehlberg: So it wasn't... The only thing any of them did wrong, they were in the wrong fucking place at the wrong time. Excuse my language. I mean, they... I truly cannot recall them doing anything to provoke what happened to them.

Det. Chris McNamara: Was there ever a time when a potential victim got away?

Gary Muehlberg: No.

Det. Chris McNamara: And once again, all of these, including her, the death occurred at the Edgar house?

Gary Muehlberg: Yeah.

Det. Chris McNamara: Okay.

Gary Muehlberg: Yeah. That's the only common thread, as far as death, you know.

Det. Chris McNamara: Before any of these contacts, before any of this occurred, was there ever a thought, the fantasy, the consideration of this behavior? Was there ever, like, you know, sometimes we'll think, oh, I'd like to rob that bank, but that doesn't mean we're going to rob it, right?

Gary Muehlberg: Right.

Det. Chris McNamara: It's a fantasy. It's something we play out in our minds. Did that occur before any of these offenses?

Gary Muehlberg: No.

Det. Chris McNamara: Like, gee, I wonder what it'd be like to pick somebody up and kill them for no reason?

Gary Muehlberg: Yeah. No. Didn't occur. No.

Det. Chris McNamara: So, sporadic? I think you might have mentioned a switch, maybe the first interview or second. Sort of like a switch.

Gary Muehlberg: Yeah, I don't know. I mean, what would take me from my lifestyle to go to this extreme?

Det. Chris McNamara: Yeah, what was the motivation?

Gary Muehlberg: Yeah. I mean, well, I wasn't a hit man. I wasn't a pimp.

Det. Chris McNamara: No. And you said you weren't angry at women, right?

Gary Muehlberg: Mm-hmm.

Det. Chris McNamara: You weren't angry at women, like after your divorce?

Gary Muehlberg: No. (Former wife, name withheld) and I only knew each other for two weeks when we got married.

Det. Chris McNamara: Do you still have any communication with her?

Gary Muehlberg: Yeah.

Det. Chris McNamara: How's that?

Gary Muehlberg: We have a very ill daughter right now.

Det. Chris McNamara: Oh, I'm sorry.

Gary Muehlberg: Well, you didn't have nothing to do with it. You know, [unclear: "since it's part of life" / "the best part of life"].

Det. Chris McNamara: It is.

Gary Muehlberg: When she was born, she had to have a lot of steroids and breathing treatments, and she may not be alive right now. She's in and out of the hospital constantly. Her weight went up to 289. She has congenital heart failure. She was on a transplant list for her lungs. Was due to have her left leg amputated. She's not in the best of health. My first wife just passed away a week and a half ago, of leukemia.

Det. Chris McNamara: Was that (first wife, name withheld)?

Gary Muehlberg: (First wife, name withheld). Yeah. In Salina, Kansas.

Det. Chris McNamara: Now, how did you hear about that?

Gary Muehlberg: Keeping in touch with family. Sister, who keeps in touch with them. I mean, my family is tied to that. Even though there's a marriage or a wedding, you still have a friendship even if it ends. I mean, (two relatives, names withheld) have been out to Salina to visit them. Not because they're sister-in-laws; they're friends.

Det. Chris McNamara: Okay.

Gary Muehlberg: You know, uh, talking to (his son, name withheld), my son out there.

Det. Chris McNamara: Yeah. So you have a son named (name withheld), too? Because I know you said your other son passed away.

Gary Muehlberg: Yeah. He's 51, living in Kansas. Getting off the beaten path again, talking about my family. Sorry. I know it goes with the interrogations. A question-and-answer period.

Det. Chris McNamara: Sometimes it's just conversation, too.

Gary Muehlberg: Yeah.

Det. Chris McNamara: Yeah. I'm just curious.

Gary Muehlberg: Yeah. (His son, name withheld) did all right. His one son is a crew chief on an F-16 in Korea, fourth tour of duty. He's got twin sons living in Salina. (His son, name withheld) used to be a Kansas Highway Patrol officer when I first got down here.

Det. Chris McNamara: Yeah. One of them things you don't talk about.

Gary Muehlberg: Yeah. [unclear: "A lot of slums at the top." (Whisper only)] Yeah. State trooper.

Det. Chris McNamara: Yeah. Before all these things happened with these victims, did you ever have those behaviors actually acted out, in force, with females?

Gary Muehlberg: I might have smacked a wall or two over anger, but not because of a female.

Det. Chris McNamara: No. Acted out against them.

Gary Muehlberg: You mean like role-playing?

Det. Chris McNamara: Sure. Role-playing, or actually acting out, to a stranger or a friend with benefits, anything like that.

Gary Muehlberg: Never got my jollies by inflicting pain on anybody. I mean, I even had trouble in boot camp. I never had weapons growing up.

Det. Chris McNamara: Ex-Marine.

Gary Muehlberg: Yeah. Yeah, it's like, you don't carry a rifle in combat to sit down and talk to somebody, you know. And I had trouble after learning how to utilize an M14, the potential of it. Even qualification day, I was one of 12 recruits that scored rather well at Camp [unclear: "Benson" / "Henson"]. Afterwards, the platoon commander had us stand up and tell us how good we did. And the night before, he gave us what we thought was some kind of medication to help calm us down. Afterward, found out they were empty gelatin capsules. Mind over matter.

Det. Chris McNamara: Was [unclear: "Henson"] on the East Coast? Was [unclear: "Henson"] on the East Coast? Because I went to Pendleton.

Gary Muehlberg: Pendleton was on the West Coast.

Det. Chris McNamara: Right.

Gary Muehlberg: No, one part of Camp Lejeune, where [unclear: "everybody could make money on it" (both)]. We were stationed on that. Brief time. Brief time, but I was stationed there.

Gary Muehlberg: [unclear: "You went on my class hour" (captions only)] I haven't even approached it. It's like here, I've had people, in fact an attorney, tell me I'm damn good grounds for a lawsuit. Why? Mistakes happen. That's what I say. I had the prostate biopsy. The doctor in Jeff City doubled the antibiotics and the length of time I was going to be on them, because of my health and age. Somewhere along the line, it took them damn near 12 days to get it to me, and in the meantime, I developed gangrene. Well, gangrene, you know, it, it wasn't intentional.

Det. Chris McNamara: Well, you can sue, after...

Gary Muehlberg: For what? You know, the money's not gonna do me no good. It was an accident, a mistake. You know, you can't really put 100% blame on one person. Except for in a case like this. I mean, it's totally my fault. Totally my fault. Probably had some kind of influence from somewhere along my life, but I can't lay blame on anybody.

Det. Jodi Weber: Well, maybe you can help us out a little bit more with the one at the car wash. Do you remember where you picked her up? What she looked like?

Gary Muehlberg: South St. Louis.

Det. Jodi Weber: [unclear: no words in either source; she probably asks again what the woman looked like]

Gary Muehlberg: No, I, I sure don't. I would imagine she was probably really badly decomposed.

Det. Jodi Weber: And you say that because?

Gary Muehlberg: She sat for a couple months behind my house.

Det. Jodi Weber: Okay.

Gary Muehlberg: In the metal container.

Det. Jodi Weber: Okay. How much time between the three we've already talked about and her? So she, [unclear: "she mentioned" (both); read as "you mentioned"] that she was probably the last one. We talked about 19...

Gary Muehlberg: The last one that I probably disposed of.

Det. Jodi Weber: Oh, yeah. Okay.

Gary Muehlberg: But the first one, I'm almost, I'd have to say, was the one in South St. Louis at the park.

Det. Jodi Weber: That was [unclear: "why didn't you leave the first" / "widely the first"]?

Gary Muehlberg: Might have been, yeah.

Det. Jodi Weber: So we're talking about what year?

Gary Muehlberg: Late '80s, '90s. I don't know. The more we're talking, I mean, to me it's clarifying some things, but it's also confusing some things.

Det. Jodi Weber: Overlapping.

Gary Muehlberg: Yeah. It's not a cop-out, it's just...

Det. Chris McNamara: So I read your letter that you wrote to Jodi. It's actually very clear. It appears that you're having clear thoughts. You've expressed them well. Is the written word better for you than conversation?

Gary Muehlberg: Depends upon the circumstance. I mean, you know, I told you I'd cooperate as much as I can. And I've thought of this: you put me on death row, it's not gonna give me no more time. And the way, I don't know, nowadays on death row is 8, 10, 12 years. I'm not gonna be alive that long, you know, because I've got, going through some health issues now that, you know.

Det. Chris McNamara: And we've thought about all of these things too, just like you have. So our gratitude that you're cooperating at this level, it's huge, because we realize what's, what's his motivation. It's purely to...

Gary Muehlberg: And I'm sure you realize how hard it is for me. I mean, it could be like, since I'm familiar with a lot of traits and people in this environment, I could have an attitude of: take me to trial. So what? Waste your time, waste your money, waste the inevitable. Because, knowing the acts I did and the evidence against me, ain't no jury gonna say not guilty. You know, even with the law of probability, one of the five, they're gonna hang me. Why do... I mean, it's like, it is what it is.

Det. Jodi Weber: Before we talk about others, what else do you remember about her? Her personality?

Det. Jodi Weber: Did she look better in that picture?

Gary Muehlberg: Like, when I first saw it, she looked rough in that picture.

Det. Jodi Weber: Yeah. Well, who knows what the scenario was.

Gary Muehlberg: Yeah. You know, but then it looked like a little bit of fear in the eyes, too.

Det. Jodi Weber: I agree. Do you remember that look in her eyes when she was with you?

Gary Muehlberg: No.

Det. Jodi Weber: Was that ever... I guess, something that raced through your mind? I mean, like fear or something?

Gary Muehlberg: No.

Det. Jodi Weber: Was it any...

Gary Muehlberg: It's almost like they, up to a certain point of meeting somebody, whatever, them fulfilling a verbal contract, earning their money, whatever. And all of a sudden, it's like the lights got turned out and things drastically changed. I mean, I'm almost sure I did not leave my house to go on a prowl to kill somebody.

Det. Jodi Weber: It was to have sex, right? To have sex was the motivation.

Gary Muehlberg: Yeah. And waste money.

Gary Muehlberg: Now, the one victim who you said the son was taking it real bad, is he aware of up-to-date progress, what's going on now?

Det. Jodi Weber: He is.

Gary Muehlberg: And how is he dealing with it?

Det. Jodi Weber: I do not know. He apparently has his own issues, as far as, um, I think he has a drug problem, and he's hard to get a hold of. So I've talked to his father, but I have not talked to him directly. But according to his father, he has let him know. But I don't know.

Gary Muehlberg: Tied directly to his mom?

Det. Jodi Weber: I do not know that for sure.

Gary Muehlberg: Or you can't say?

Det. Jodi Weber: I don't know, honestly. I think he didn't have a great upbringing after his mom passed away. And I don't think his dad was in the picture, so to speak.

Gary Muehlberg: So, is the father in the picture now?

Det. Jodi Weber: He is. Yes. The father said he took this pretty hard, and kind of did not take care of the son like he should have. And now they're trying to rebuild the relationship. Yes.

Gary Muehlberg: Were they married while she was making this living?

Det. Jodi Weber: No.

Gary Muehlberg: Okay. I can't imagine somebody pimping their wife out.

Det. Jodi Weber: It happens.

Gary Muehlberg: I'm sure, in this world nowadays, the law of probability.

Det. Jodi Weber: I'm glad you asked about him, though. I mean, that shows...

Gary Muehlberg: I've thought about his... just trying to look at similarities, of putting yourself in your shoes, or what he's going through. And, um, I'm not asking this, but I'm, his drug problems might inadvertently, indirectly have something to do with this.

Det. Jodi Weber: They're good...

Gary Muehlberg: Defense mechanisms. Escape reality. But I think we all do that from time to time, don't we?

Det. Jodi Weber: Sure.

Gary Muehlberg: Go on vacation to get away from work.

Det. Jodi Weber: On vacation. Right.

Det. Chris McNamara: So, just something in your past I was thinking about. So you grew up in St. Louis, right?

Gary Muehlberg: On and off, yeah.

Det. Chris McNamara: Okay. And then you said you went to college in Fayette and Warrensburg. So how did you end up in Kansas?

Gary Muehlberg: Dorothy and her Wicked Witch. Dad got transferred out there my senior year of high school.

Det. Chris McNamara: Oh, okay.

Gary Muehlberg: We were living in Jeff City, and got moved out there in December of '66, and then I graduated in '67.

Det. Chris McNamara: What part of Kansas?

Gary Muehlberg: Salina. It's almost dead center.

Det. Chris McNamara: Oh, I know it well.

Gary Muehlberg: You know it well?

Det. Chris McNamara: Yeah. We used to ride, take motorcycles, and meet in Salina quite often.

Gary Muehlberg: My son had, he just bought a new bike, cost more than most people pay for a car. You'll see, Salina used to have a Schilling Air Force Base, and we moved out there like six months after it closed down. Nice little town at the time.

Det. Chris McNamara: And then what year did you leave Kansas?

Gary Muehlberg: Went in the Corps in '68.

Det. Chris McNamara: Okay. What brought you back to St. Louis?

Gary Muehlberg: I was incarcerated in Kansas, and [unclear: "pulled out" / "crawled out"] to Central Methodist, and I went to Warrensburg, and then dropped out there, and came back to St. Louis as a school teacher, or a substitute teacher rather. Couldn't be certified to teach full time with a felony conviction.

Det. Chris McNamara: So you just, uh, is there a reason why you came back to St. Louis? Was it for the job, or for something?

Gary Muehlberg: Family.

Det. Chris McNamara: Oh, you had more family here?

Gary Muehlberg: Oh, yeah. At the time, it's like aunts and uncles and cousins and parents, all kind of things like that.

Det. Chris McNamara: Is that when they were living around Bevo Mill? Didn't you say they lived around Bevo Mill?

Gary Muehlberg: I was born down on Gaynor, which is south of Bevo Mill, on Gravois by Christy Park. Damn, I can remember that. Had some good times.

Det. Chris McNamara: There was a mention in the last interview about you and a friend went in on a semi-truck, a tractor.

Gary Muehlberg: Yeah. After I, uh, the year of being a substitute teacher, bought a tractor-trailer, and went bankrupt real quick.

Det. Chris McNamara: Well, yeah. Did you drive it at all? Did you drive at all?

Gary Muehlberg: Oh, yeah.

Det. Chris McNamara: Where'd you drive to?

Gary Muehlberg: Chicago and Indianapolis. Worked for, uh, leased out to [unclear: "the island Cartage" (both)] over by the stockyards in East St. Louis.

Det. Chris McNamara: So how does that work? You owned the equipment, right?

Gary Muehlberg: As an independent, you own the tractor. The company owns the boxes, the trailers, and one truck, to be a company, and you lease out to them. And then they'll give you work.

Det. Chris McNamara: What were you hauling?

Gary Muehlberg: Uh, dry goods. Steel out of Indianapolis back to St. Louis. Anheuser-Busch products going up, empty bottles coming back. Things of that nature.

Det. Chris McNamara: Was that your... What was that time period? What was that time frame? What year was that?

Gary Muehlberg: Let's see if I can remember something else, yeah. '79. '78, '79, somewhere around there.

Det. Chris McNamara: But the money or something happened, and then it didn't work out?

Gary Muehlberg: Yeah. We had a truck got repo'd.

Det. Chris McNamara: Okay. Oops. I don't know. Kind of hard, yeah.

Gary Muehlberg: We bought a, a used tractor from some truck dealer over in East St. Louis, and it was a good... And neither (a friend, name withheld) or I, the friend that we went in partnership, had any business doing... You know, it's like, we bought a good used truck, and it just got out of hand in a couple of months.

Det. Chris McNamara: Well, you got some driving in, didn't you?

Gary Muehlberg: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Upset a few police officers in Crestwood, by going to a shopping center to practice driving a tractor-trailer. You know, one night the officer stopped and asked what we were doing. I'd rather practice here than on your streets.

Det. Chris McNamara: Yeah. You ever tried backing up a tractor-trailer?

Gary Muehlberg: Yeah, yeah.

Det. Chris McNamara: So you had, you had to learn all that on your own, on the parking lot?

Gary Muehlberg: Mm-hmm. And you got, I admitted it then. When we'd go down to Anheuser-Busch to back up to the loading docks, I swallowed some pride and went in, and I thought, hey, I'm new at this shit. Whose new Kenworth is that? Would you like to back my truck up for me?

Det. Chris McNamara: Yeah. Because you're going to have to put it right between others, right?

Gary Muehlberg: Yeah. Down the dock. With less than a foot on either side. I think the first time I successfully backed the truck up to the dock, got out, went out to the loading dock, warehouse supervisor: now, you want to pull your rig out and open the back doors?

Det. Chris McNamara: Huh.

Gary Muehlberg: Because they're swinging. And you don't open them when you're backed in, no.

Det. Chris McNamara: Yeah.

Gary Muehlberg: The good old days.

Det. Chris McNamara: Were you associated with any prostitutes back in that time period of your life?

Gary Muehlberg: No.

Det. Chris McNamara: How about while in the service?

Gary Muehlberg: Hmm?

Det. Chris McNamara: How about while in the service?

Gary Muehlberg: [unclear: "Getting out of time." (Whisper) / "didn't have... out in Kansas" (captions)]

Det. Chris McNamara: What about in Kansas?

Gary Muehlberg: Hmm?

Det. Chris McNamara: What about in Kansas?

Gary Muehlberg: Hmm? No. I got married shortly after I got out of the service. No, I don't have a long history of this stuff, thank God. Short period of time in my life.

Det. Chris McNamara: What do you think about stuff coming to you? I mean, you said you have a degree in psychology. Do you think stuff is going to come to you over time, now that you've kind of opened this up for yourself, and thinking about it more?

Gary Muehlberg: Oh, I'm sure. I'm sure, especially with the two new [unclear: "cases" (Whisper only)]. I sincerely want to open up a hundred percent, but I got to admit, I don't know how much I'm going to let myself open up fully. How I've opened up to now is painful as hell. And indirectly, I've got a rough period coming up shortly.

Det. Chris McNamara: What do you mean?

Gary Muehlberg: Inmates only go to the custody complex for one or two reasons. And I'm not a snitch. And I'm telling myself, but nobody will know except for you all, and I'm sure the staff around here, you know. Inmates [unclear: "ass like" / "aspect"] the last two times...

Det. Chris McNamara: [unclear: "Well, you're over there far, aren't you?" / "when you're over near Fork"]

Gary Muehlberg: You weren't invited for none of your business. Nothing to brag about, talk about, compare notes. Nah. Something I've got to deal with in here.

Det. Chris McNamara: So what about any resources here at the prison? Are you interested in anything like that?

Gary Muehlberg: Yeah. Yeah, they have a, contrary to popular belief within the population, they've got a pretty good medical. I mean, it's not the Mayo Clinic, it's not Sigmund Freud, but they have psychiatry, psychologists, medical personnel.

Det. Chris McNamara: Isn't that what brought your cellmate around to talk about his... Isn't that what brought your cellmate around to talk about his incident?

Gary Muehlberg: No, I...

Det. Chris McNamara: Not to you, but to other people?

Gary Muehlberg: No, because, like, when you're from the same town, I first heard about [unclear: "harmotrot" / "armatrap"; perhaps a surname such as Armentrout], and it's not funny, but before I got here, they have a softball diamond, they have organized teams, and he picked up a bat and looked at it, and somebody in the bleachers supposedly yelled, "Trout, you know what to do with that bat?" He killed his grandmother with a baseball bat.

Det. Chris McNamara: Yeah. That's what we talked about last time.

Gary Muehlberg: Yep. Or, if you want to upset somebody, even to the point of having a hard physical altercation, somebody like [unclear: "Henry Futo" (both); spelling not verified], ask him, hey, you still get greeting cards from your family? Or Danny Porter, ask him if he still celebrates Father's Day. He killed his own two kids. There's a way of provoking some hostile reactions...

Det. Chris McNamara: Oh, I'm sure.

Gary Muehlberg: And some things you don't talk about. Some things you listen and agree. But things like this, I haven't talked to anybody in here, whether they're trained staff, correctional officers, inmates. Not even my family. They know nothing of what's been going on here.

Det. Chris McNamara: And that doesn't interest you at all, talking to one of the doctors?

Gary Muehlberg: Yeah, I've thought about it. I'll probably get around to it.

Det. Chris McNamara: Okay. Maybe they can help open some locked doors.

Gary Muehlberg: Right. They're the professionals. As long as I have confidence that, uh, it's not going to be open to everybody.

Det. Chris McNamara: Mm-hmm.

Gary Muehlberg: Just had a question. I don't know if the staff out here is fully aware of this. I'm sure they're aware of some reason why y'all are down here, right? Specifics, not that it doesn't matter, but they talk a lot.

Det. Chris McNamara: Yeah.

Gary Muehlberg: And the staff, being correctional officers, aren't exactly above board, right? They just busted somebody in my wing with cigarette tobacco taped underneath his trash can. He sure didn't go out to QuikTrip to buy it. Only one way it came in. You know, and staff members do talk about inmates. If you ask one directly, they'll: "We don't know anything, that's not our job." They do. They read files. They got you.

Det. Chris McNamara: Mm-hmm.

Gary Muehlberg: You know, so they know how to deal with people, to a certain degree. Even the most uneducated CO, [unclear: "square cook" (both)], recreation officer, whoever, doesn't want to hit somebody's button the wrong way, you know, by making a comment about Father's Day when they know why the dude is in here. Things of that nature. But this closed environment is a smaller scale of which you all live on the streets. Because it's like, there's things in here you worry about, and there's other things I've got it made over you all. I get fed three times a day and I got a roof over my head. I don't have to worry about going to the grocery store and not getting food for your family. I don't have to worry about waiting for a bus and having somebody come up from behind [unclear: "the cold cockpit" / "a cold Cockney"; perhaps "and cold-cock you"], to a certain degree, in here.

Det. Chris McNamara: Yeah. Yeah.

Gary Muehlberg: [unclear: "It's not a boss." (captions only)] And as I know, people snap and go off on weird trips for whatever reason. I mean, case in point. Why do people behave the way they do?

Det. Jodi Weber: So you've named a lot of different examples of how one person can be provoked in a way to behave or act out, right? Because of a comment, because of something that someone else does. Did any of these victims have something in common that caused that in you at the time?

Gary Muehlberg: I wish I could answer that right now. Maybe in time. Every human being experiences similar traits or stimuli. How you react to it is not always the same, even between biological twins.

Det. Jodi Weber: Right. Right.

Gary Muehlberg: You know, it's like...

Det. Jodi Weber: Yet there was some prostitutes you just had sex, took them back home.

Gary Muehlberg: Yeah. So, somehow, that, whatever they didn't do, or did, or didn't...

Det. Jodi Weber: Yeah.

Gary Muehlberg: Or maybe it wasn't them, but it was me who did or didn't do something. Because you look at a picture... I had a professor say this once. You take a group of people to look at the same picture and say, what's the first thing you see? You see the totality of the whole picture, but one thing's focused on.

Det. Jodi Weber: Right.

Gary Muehlberg: What's normal? What's not normal? Two classrooms, identical teachers, students, same courses, same everything. One classroom has 29 people that can see; one person's blind. That blind person's abnormal, doesn't fit the normality. Across the hall, twins, everything's the same, but 29 are blind and one can see. Now the one that can see is abnormal, because it doesn't fit the normality. So there's similarities on everything, but everything's different. Makes sense?

Det. Jodi Weber: Would you always be willing to talk to us? Even if we rehash things we've already talked about?

Gary Muehlberg: This is the third time I'm here, isn't it? I mean, I knew this. You get called out at different times for different things, and they call me out to the pod, or the bubble, and the correctional officers, they want you over to custody complex. I'm like, okay, let me get my [unclear: "grades on, not charts" / "grave on, not shorts"]. I knew what I was, you know, I couldn't refuse. I don't want to find out what happens if I do. I talked the first time.

Det. Jodi Weber: Yeah.

Gary Muehlberg: As long as you all come down this way, I'll talk, I mean.

Det. Jodi Weber: And what about the letters? Is that something else you'll consider, adding more letters?

Gary Muehlberg: Oh, yeah, yeah. Fully knowing that they're scrutinized here before they get mailed out. It's just like when I got your letter. Anything that is directly or indirectly legal mail, it don't have to be from a court or an attorney, but law enforcement, you get called out and they open the envelope, take the insides out, shake it, and give it to you. And they don't read it. It's not opened in the mail room. It's opened in front of you.

Det. Jodi Weber: Yeah. Okay.

Gary Muehlberg: Now we can't even save the envelopes, because of contraband coming in here.

Det. Jodi Weber: You have letters?

Gary Muehlberg: I don't know if... maybe I can check with somebody. It doesn't make any difference, really. But if I send a letter to the court, to an attorney, I can seal it before I put it in the mailbox.

Det. Jodi Weber: Right. Yeah.

Gary Muehlberg: The letter I sent you is just, you write the letter, you put it in an envelope, you tuck the flap in, and put it in the mailbox. They scrutinize them in the mail room. It's not legal mail. I don't think, you know.

Det. Jodi Weber: Well, it didn't take too long to get it, so.

Gary Muehlberg: A lot quicker than with the iPads we got. Last letter my brother-in-law wrote took 11 days to get to me.

Det. Jodi Weber: Oh, because it has to go to Florida.

Gary Muehlberg: Yeah, it had to go to Florida, and then they scan it, put it on a tablet.

Det. Jodi Weber: So you get my mail quicker than...

Gary Muehlberg: Yeah. Regular mail. Family mail, family. Must have fed the Pony Express that day.

Det. Jodi Weber: Yeah.

Det. Jodi Weber: Anything you want to add that's on your mind? Anything you want to add that's on your mind that we haven't talked about?

Gary Muehlberg: Right now, no. Except for, I'm gonna have to go to the restroom, and I prefer to do it in my cell. So hopefully this ain't gonna go on much longer right now.

Interviewer: Whoa. That was nice.

Gary Muehlberg: Was this a bit of sarcasm?

Interviewer: Yeah.

Gary Muehlberg: You all come down together?

Det. Jodi Weber: [unclear: "You had to share that burger." / "you can't assure that burger"]

Gary Muehlberg: Yeah.

Det. Jodi Weber: Last chance to eat it. Last chance to eat it.

Gary Muehlberg: Breakfast.

Det. Jodi Weber: What was your favorite fast food restaurant? Everybody has a favorite fast food.

Gary Muehlberg: Whatever's on my plate in front of me.

Det. Jodi Weber: No, I mean like when you, before, back in the day. Back in the day. Where would you stop?

Gary Muehlberg: Oh, it depends on where I was. White Castle, Steak 'n Shake. I'd hit Denny's, a family-oriented restaurant.

Det. Jodi Weber: What would be the go-to order at those places? Basically, the next time we come down, we want to bring you something. That's why we thought this would be good for you.

Gary Muehlberg: I'd rather pick up than dine in. I don't think [unclear: "they're the lowest peak yet" / "they're alone"].

Det. Jodi Weber: Yeah. I don't think they'll do the drive-through.

Gary Muehlberg: No. No.

Gary Muehlberg: No. Don't bring nothing down.

Det. Jodi Weber: Nothing? No candy?

Gary Muehlberg: No.

Det. Jodi Weber: Chili beans?

Gary Muehlberg: No. Jeez, I would do anything for a chili mac. You don't have to... I mean, and don't take this wrong. You don't have to patronize me to get me to talk.

Det. Jodi Weber: Well, I'm not doing that.

Gary Muehlberg: You don't have to bribe me to get me to talk.

Det. Jodi Weber: That's not...

Gary Muehlberg: I appreciate it, with all honesty, but...

Det. Jodi Weber: Yeah. The way I look at it, if I was in your position, I would want something like that.

Gary Muehlberg: What position is that?

Det. Jodi Weber: If I was locked up for 32 years and I couldn't get a chili mac from Steak 'n Shake.

Gary Muehlberg: Oh, yes we can.

Det. Jodi Weber: Really?

Gary Muehlberg: They have different groups down here, like 4-H, Restorative Justice, different organizations, to get fundraisers twice a year, and they'll do that. We just went through one with a candy fundraiser. Got five different kind of candies. They have pizza delivery.

Det. Jodi Weber: Really?

Gary Muehlberg: Oh, yeah. Imagine having a Pizza Hut and you get an order for 700 pizzas.

Det. Jodi Weber: Yeah. I didn't know they did stuff like that.

Interviewer: I didn't either.

Gary Muehlberg: Yeah.

Det. Jodi Weber: So you've had some [unclear: "bad stuff"]...

Gary Muehlberg: McDonald's, Arby's, Long John Silver's.

Det. Jodi Weber: So you've had all that over the years?

Gary Muehlberg: Once or twice. Oh, yeah. Canteen, you can buy big-ass burgers, pizza kits, all kind of food, beverages, clothing.

Det. Jodi Weber: Is that the canteen that's right over here? When we walked by?

Gary Muehlberg: Yeah.

Det. Jodi Weber: Yeah.

Gary Muehlberg: You want to peek in there?

Det. Jodi Weber: Just curious.

Gary Muehlberg: They're coming out of a slump, like on the streets. Suppliers run out of stuff to ship, you know. Normally there's five or six kind of ice creams, all kind of sodas, soups, bagged meats, potted meats. Maybe next time I remember, I'll get a canteen list, and y'all can have it. And buy all kind of clothes.

Det. Jodi Weber: I would have never guessed that.

Gary Muehlberg: Yep.

Det. Jodi Weber: I'd never guess that.

Gary Muehlberg: You can buy T-shirts, boxers, socks, tennis shoes, sweatpants, hats, coats, towels, linens, TVs.

Det. Jodi Weber: They don't supply that when the weather changes?

Gary Muehlberg: Yeah. You get so many state issue, but it's like you're allowed maybe three boxers, four T-shirts, three pair of socks by the state.

Det. Jodi Weber: Yeah.

Gary Muehlberg: Well, if you have the means, you're allowed eight sets, including state. When I take a shower every day, I change clothes.

Det. Jodi Weber: Right.

Gary Muehlberg: They've laxed off in years. We can buy laundry soap, do a laundry in yourself. Years ago, you couldn't. Now you can. It's, yeah, it's a totally different, isolated world, but we have similarities to the outside.

Det. Jodi Weber: What's your bedding like? What's your, what's your mattress like? Yeah. You just have that thin piece of...?

Gary Muehlberg: No, I'm due for a new one next month. But they're thick foam rubber covered in plastic, and you get two sheets and a pillowcase, a state blanket, and you can buy a personal blanket. You can turn them in once a week and get them laundered.

Det. Jodi Weber: Is it comfortable?

Gary Muehlberg: After a few years, it's like, yeah. Right now, not really, because the mattresses collapse a lot.

Det. Jodi Weber: Okay.

Gary Muehlberg: And they're all steel bunks.

Det. Jodi Weber: Yeah. Kind of like the military.

Gary Muehlberg: Huh. Imagine living on concrete and steel all your life. The chow hall's got the tables: there's your round tables with four stools, all steel. The bunks are steel. The floors are concrete. The walls are black. You get used to it, you don't think about it. But occasionally, when you get up in age, and you get up in the morning, you do it really slow, because, like, you slept wrong.

Det. Jodi Weber: Mm-hmm. Interesting.

Det. Chris McNamara: All right. Well, I appreciate you talking to us.

Gary Muehlberg: I hope I clarified some things. Helped out a little bit.

Det. Chris McNamara: But if you do think of something, make sure you write her. That way we can prepare to come down and talk about those things.

Gary Muehlberg: Mm-hmm.

Det. Chris McNamara: The big thing that I read, I got out of this, is the coat hangers in the mattress. Because we never talked about that, it has more than last time.

Gary Muehlberg: Yeah. Yeah. And it's things like that. It's like...

Det. Chris McNamara: Yeah. We know that.

Gary Muehlberg: Yeah.

Det. Chris McNamara: We can let our bosses know that, you know. We can let the bosses know, the prosecutor, that, you know...

Gary Muehlberg: It's not that I'm not trying.

Det. Chris McNamara: We know. We know.

Gary Muehlberg: That some things are gone forever. I can't guarantee I can remember every little detail.

Det. Chris McNamara: So we discussed many details. For instance, like the girls in the pictures, um, how they were placed. You went, at least in your, hopefully in your own mind's eye, you were re-going through those physical things, like placing her in the trash can. That was an example. And some of them, re-recalling painful experiences, like, yeah, it really happened.

Gary Muehlberg: Yeah. There's a reluctance of talking about it. But if it helps everybody out... Can't help me out no more, you know.

Det. Chris McNamara: It does help.

Gary Muehlberg: It helped today. I think, when I first sat down, reality touched home, because there it was. All this speculation of not if, but when y'all were gonna come talk to me.

Det. Chris McNamara: Yeah.

Gary Muehlberg: [unclear: "Get down over with now." / "we've done over with now"]

Det. Chris McNamara: And like the letter, it really helped, because if you read it, and then let it digest a few days, like we all did, and then you have other people read it, they digest it, and then you start developing questions about the things you say in there. So that helps. So sometimes having a little delay in the return visit helps.

Gary Muehlberg: Yeah. Helps direct the path that goes, you know. Which fork in a road do you take? As they say, if there's a spoon, you don't take a fork.

Det. Chris McNamara: No. [End of the video at 2:31:18.] ---