Gary Muehlberg's Second Police Interview on the "Package" Murders, Potosi Correctional Center, 2022 (Part 2)
Handed letters from three prosecutors agreeing not to seek the death penalty, Gary Muehlberg admitted killing Robyn Mihan, Sandy Little and Brenda Pruitt, and said, "For what it's worth, I'm sorry."
- Subject
- Gary Randall Muehlberg
- Recorded
- about June 30, 2022
- Runtime
- 2:29:16
Content warning: A confession to the murders of three women he says he picked up for paid sex: how he says he strangled them and put their bodies between two mattresses, inside a dresser built into a plywood box and in a trash can; discussion of decomposed remains and photographs of them; questions about sex and about the son of one victim.
The Interview
In August 2022, about five weeks after Gary Muehlberg had ended their first interview by asking for a lawyer, Detective Jodi Weber of the O'Fallon, Missouri, Police Department returned to Potosi Correctional Center with Mike Harvey, an investigator with the St. Charles County Prosecuting Attorney's Office. "I got you what you wanted," Weber told him, and handed him three letters from the prosecutors of Lincoln, St. Louis and St. Charles counties, who agreed not to seek the death penalty. She also told him that her boss had spoken to the director of the state's Department of Corrections and that they had talked to the warden, and that he would stay at Potosi without losing his privileges. After he was read his rights again, he was questioned for about two and a half hours. The session was recorded on a police camera, and KSDK News in St. Louis published it in September 2023, without narration, as the second of four parts.
Historical Context
In 1990 and 1991 the bodies of four women were found in the St. Louis area, each inside some kind of container: Robyn Mihan between two mattresses near Silex in Lincoln County, Donna Reitmeyer in a trash can in the city of St. Louis, Brenda Pruitt in a trash can in Maryland Heights, and Sandy Little in a dresser along I-70 in O'Fallon. The cases went unsolved. In 1993 Muehlberg was arrested for the murder of Kenneth "Doc" Atchison, whose body was found in a makeshift coffin in Muehlberg's home in Bel-Ridge; he was convicted in 1995 and sentenced to life without parole. Decades later, Weber, an O'Fallon cold-case detective, linked his DNA to evidence from the 1990s cases.
Circumstances of the Interview
This was the second of four sessions between June and September 2022. In the first, Muehlberg had said he did not remember the killings and had asked for a lawyer, raising the death penalty himself. Weber explains on this recording that she had asked all three prosecutors to "give Gary a chance" to cooperate, and she tells him that two more pieces of evidence, from a T-shirt that she says was wrapped around one victim's head (she does not say whose), had come back with his DNA. Muehlberg asks whether anything changes if he requests an attorney, and Weber says she cannot tell him what the prosecutors would do without his cooperation. He then agrees to talk. "I guess if my DNA and all that stuff ties me to it, I'm good for it," he says.
What the Interview Covers
The investigators take three cases in turn, showing him the women's 1989 booking photographs. On Robyn Mihan, Muehlberg says he picked her up for sex, probably in south St. Louis, took her to his house in Bel-Ridge, and drove the mattresses north at night in his Ford conversion van, turning off Highway 61 onto what he thinks was a gravel road. On Sandy Little, he looks at photographs of the dresser in its plywood box, says it looks like part of a bedroom set he bought in college, and says he "somewhat" remembers removing the drawer bottoms; he cannot say where her body was kept for the months before it was found. On Brenda Pruitt, he says he strangled her, "same as Robyn", and left her in a plastic trash can near an apartment complex off Page Avenue and I-270. Asked whether he recalls other victims, he says he does not; pressed on whether he killed more than one woman, he says, "These two for sure", and then that he hopes he did not kill every woman he was with. He says he cannot explain "what opened the faucet" or what stopped it. He also argues that there was "no smoking gun" in the Atchison case and says that "at the least, I was an accomplice". Near the end he says, "For what it's worth, I'm sorry", and checks that the papers he was given are his to keep.
What Makes the Recording Significant
This is the session in which the investigation turned: according to the Riverfront Times, it was here, once the death penalty was taken off the table, that Muehlberg confessed to three of the four murders. The recording shows the negotiation and its result in his own words, and his frequent "I don't remember" alongside admissions such as "I'm good for it". His apology near the end is the remark KSDK chose for its headline.
Archival Importance
Recordings of a serial killer's police interviews are rarely made public at this length. Together, the four parts preserve about nine hours of the investigation that closed four murder cases that had been open for more than 30 years and led to four guilty pleas in March 2023. This part documents the moment the prosecutors' written promise not to seek death was put in his hands, and his first admissions that followed.
Important Caveats
Muehlberg's account is often vague, and much of the detail comes from the investigators' questions; his statements (for example that he kept each woman no more than "a day or two", that he acted alone, that no money disputes were involved, and that he recalls no other victims) are his claims and should not be read as established fact. His remarks casting doubt on his 1995 conviction for the Atchison murder are his own view; he was convicted of that murder. Some things the investigators told him (for example about a man whose name had come up over the years, or about other evidence) were said during questioning and are not verified facts. Donna Reitmeyer and the fifth woman he later described are not discussed in this part. Some lines cannot be attributed with certainty to Weber or Harvey, and several passages are hard to hear.
Det. Jodi Weber: Gary, good morning. Hi, Gary. How are you?
Gary Muehlberg: [inaudible]
Det. Jodi Weber: I got you what you wanted. I got you three letters here from three prosecutors. You want to take a look at that? And they won't seek the death penalty. [pause while he reads] This one is Lincoln County. This one is Wesley Bell from St. Louis County. [pause] Okay. And this is Tim Lohmar from St. Charles County. [pause] Also, my boss has called the director of the Department of Corrections, and also we talked to the warden here. No matter what happens, you will not be out of here. You will not lose any privileges, your iPhone, nothing.
Gary Muehlberg: iPad.
Det. Jodi Weber: iPad, everything. Okay? Because the last time we talked to you, I think that was one of your biggest concerns, was the, because you were pretty much set in your ways here, and then the death penalty. So we've answered both those situations, and we would like to talk to you further in reference to the cases we're [unclear: "working" / "where it worked"].
Gary Muehlberg: Okay.
Det. Jodi Weber: Okay? All right. So, I can, since we talked to you last time, some more evidence came back with DNA on it. The shirt, the T-shirt, two pieces of the T-shirt came back with your DNA too.
Gary Muehlberg: The what?
Det. Jodi Weber: The T-shirt that was wrapped around her head.
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah.
Det. Jodi Weber: So, obviously you can have copies of these if you would like them.
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah.
Det. Jodi Weber: Okay. Let me grab a pen. [pause] Okay. So we have to go through this again. What time is it? 9:40?
Mike Harvey: Yes.
Gary Muehlberg: So am I leaving here today?
Det. Jodi Weber: Nope. Nope. Not going to change anything right now. [pause] 9:40. All right, Gary, I'm just going to read these to you; if you understand, just initial right there for me, okay? "Before we ask you any questions, you must understand your rights. You do not have to make a statement or answer any questions; you have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can be used against you in a court of law. You have a right to talk to a lawyer for advice before you are asked any questions, and to have a lawyer present with you during questioning. If you cannot afford to hire a lawyer and if you so desire, one will be appointed for you before any questioning. If you decide to answer questions and/or make a statement now, you'll have the right to stop answering questions or remain silent at any time." [pause while he initials]
Gary Muehlberg: Does that change if I request an attorney?
Det. Jodi Weber: We just can't talk to you right now. And if you do, I don't know what's going to happen. I can tell you, I talked to all three of them and said, please. I know they wanted to go all the way. I asked them to please not do that, and let us give Gary a chance to do this. So I can't tell you, if we don't get cooperation, what they're going to do. I can't, I don't know that.
Gary Muehlberg: I mean, I'm old enough and my health-wise, even with death penalty, I'd never, I would pass away before I got there.
Det. Jodi Weber: That's correct. That is correct.
Gary Muehlberg: I don't know if you know, are you aware of my health?
Det. Jodi Weber: Yes, actually you told us basically what your health was.
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah.
Det. Jodi Weber: You got heart condition, and you said you had...
Gary Muehlberg: Heart and the cancer and all that stuff, yeah.
Det. Jodi Weber: Okay. Are you good with the cancer now? I mean, or is it...
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah, they removed my prostate, and it could be some complications, but the heart slowed down a whole bunch.
Det. Jodi Weber: Okay.
Gary Muehlberg: You know.
Det. Jodi Weber: Okay. You seem tired.
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah, fatigue. Yeah, yeah. My heart rate stays around 40 to 64 or something like that, and they say it's low.
Det. Jodi Weber: Okay. It is kind of low.
Mike Harvey: Well, it is low. It is low.
Det. Jodi Weber: Okay.
Gary Muehlberg: So now what?
Det. Jodi Weber: So I'd like to start with Robyn. I have a picture of Robyn.
Gary Muehlberg: I don't recognize the name, of course. It was 30-some-odd years ago.
Det. Jodi Weber: So Robyn was the young lady that was in between the two mattresses.
Gary Muehlberg: You know what? In between two mattresses.
Det. Jodi Weber: Can you tell me how you met her?
Gary Muehlberg: Man, I've been thinking about that, [unclear: "he's like" / "it's like"], I don't know. I can't recall the circumstances I met her, but I guess if my DNA and all that stuff ties me to it, I'm good for it. But I don't remember a lot of the details.
Det. Jodi Weber: Can you tell us some of the details that you remember? Can you tell me some of the details you remember?
Gary Muehlberg: I don't...
Det. Jodi Weber: How did she die?
Gary Muehlberg: Well, she had a, maybe like blunt force trauma to the head, and strangulation.
Det. Jodi Weber: And what?
Gary Muehlberg: Strangulation.
Det. Jodi Weber: Okay. Do you recall the mattresses?
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [pause] Yeah, so apparently it happened in my house up in Bel-Ridge.
Det. Jodi Weber: Okay.
Gary Muehlberg: It's painful as hell.
Det. Jodi Weber: I know. Do you recall where the mattresses came from, Gary?
Gary Muehlberg: Undoubtedly my house.
Det. Jodi Weber: Were they something that you were using in your house?
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Det. Jodi Weber: How long... You don't remember how you met her. Do you remember bringing her back to your house?
Gary Muehlberg: Oh, yeah. I mean, I don't remember the exact, I don't know if I met her in a bar or on the street, picked her up. Because I, didn't you say she was like a prostitute?
Det. Jodi Weber: Mm-hmm. Correct.
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah, sex for hire. And I can't recall the name Robyn. I know from myself and other people, a lot of the girls that work the street had street names.
Det. Jodi Weber: Sure. Sure. Does she look familiar, though? I know it's been a long time.
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah. You said this was back in, what, '90?
Det. Jodi Weber: Yeah.
Gary Muehlberg: That's 32 years ago.
Det. Jodi Weber: So, but you do remember having her at your house?
Gary Muehlberg: [unclear: "She vaguely" / "Vaguely"], I mean, she's an attractive-looking young lady. [pause] Yeah.
Det. Jodi Weber: Do you remember how long she was there at your house?
Gary Muehlberg: No, ma'am, I sure don't.
Det. Jodi Weber: Okay.
Gary Muehlberg: I sure don't.
Det. Jodi Weber: So what do you remember about the mattresses, and...
Gary Muehlberg: I don't... yeah.
Det. Jodi Weber: How would you have kept the mattress, mattresses together? You recall that? I mean, she was in between two mattresses.
Gary Muehlberg: Okay.
Det. Jodi Weber: How would you have kept those together?
Gary Muehlberg: String or rope or something?
Det. Jodi Weber: And how would you secure it, though? Do you remember how you secured it?
Gary Muehlberg: Ah. [pause] Not really.
Det. Jodi Weber: They were secured together, though.
Gary Muehlberg: A rope around them, or...
Det. Jodi Weber: They were secured, but I was hoping that you could tell us how they were secured.
Gary Muehlberg: Tied together. [pause] I don't, I can't, I wish I could recall what was going through my mind to do something like this.
Det. Jodi Weber: Do you remember doing it?
Gary Muehlberg: Vaguely. I mean, I'm thinking I had sex with her, and [unclear: "paid her" / "pain her" / "painter"].
Mike Harvey: I'm sorry, go ahead.
Det. Jodi Weber: Back in the day, is there any reason that you would be upset with them afterwards?
Gary Muehlberg: [unclear: "It would" / "Yeah, that's what this was"]. I don't know what would prompt me, offhand, to kill somebody like that. [pause] I wish I could. It might help clear my conscience.
Det. Jodi Weber: So you've been thinking about these since we left last time? What do you think? Nonstop, huh?
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah.
Det. Jodi Weber: Okay. You pretty much were convinced we were coming back, right? You were pretty much convinced we were coming back, right?
Gary Muehlberg: Oh, yeah. Just a matter of time.
Det. Jodi Weber: Five weeks today.
Gary Muehlberg: Is it? Your memory's better than mine.
Det. Jodi Weber: Yeah. Good memory.
Gary Muehlberg: On some things. Like, you know, when you get old, some things get away.
Det. Jodi Weber: Sure. Now, do you remember where you just... Do you remember where you disposed of her body?
Gary Muehlberg: Hm?
Det. Jodi Weber: Do you remember where you disposed of her body?
Gary Muehlberg: I'm thinking last time I got to something about along a highway out in St. Charles County, or Troy, or something.
Det. Jodi Weber: Okay. Do you remember how you got there?
Gary Muehlberg: I didn't walk.
Det. Jodi Weber: The truck? What kind of, what kind of vehicle was it?
Gary Muehlberg: A late-'80s Ford conversion van. I mean, it was factory custom. I had the captain seats and all that good stuff in it.
Det. Jodi Weber: Do you remember...
Gary Muehlberg: I, bits and pieces I remember, but not totally.
Det. Jodi Weber: Well, tell us what you do.
Gary Muehlberg: That's about, I mean, I don't remember exactly where I picked her up at. I'm assuming it was on the streets of south St. Louis. Going back to my house. [pause] Maybe in time I can remember more details, but right now it's foggy at the best.
Det. Jodi Weber: Did you own a truck back then?
Gary Muehlberg: I know at one time I had, when I was arrested for what I'm here on, I had a four-wheel-drive pickup truck. But that would have been like, oh hell, '91, '92.
Det. Jodi Weber: Is there anything unique about that truck that you recall?
Gary Muehlberg: Just a four-wheel drive. I [unclear: "might be sure of the make" / "make sure to make"]; I think it'd have been a GMC or a Chevy.
Det. Jodi Weber: What color?
Gary Muehlberg: Brown. [pause] Rusty brown.
Det. Jodi Weber: Were there any accessories you put on there? Anything in the back? Do you remember anything?
Gary Muehlberg: Hmm, let's see. [unclear: "Naka" / "Not because"] it wasn't really that kind of vehicle to customize. It had big tires on it; they were on there when I bought it. I can't think of the guy's name that I bought it from. I think he hung out at the little diner in Overland too. And then went to find out when I was arrested in Illinois, I was driving it, and then I found out after I was arrested it had been stolen. So I bought a stolen vehicle, but I wasn't aware of it.
Det. Jodi Weber: Okay.
Gary Muehlberg: I just don't think I would have bought it and been driving it all over the place.
Det. Jodi Weber: So what kind of vehicle did you have before that one?
Gary Muehlberg: Hmm, let's see. I had like three or four different cars at one time. I had the van, the pickup truck, an older Thunderbird. I think I had a Cavalier. Yeah, when I worked for the Shriners I had a Cavalier.
Det. Jodi Weber: You ever have a vehicle with a camper on the back?
Gary Muehlberg: No.
Det. Jodi Weber: Do you know anybody that had a vehicle with a camper on the back? Or a camper shell? A camper shell, that you might have been running with?
Gary Muehlberg: I probably did. I know a couple people, but... not, not specifics.
Det. Jodi Weber: So you said it was either St. Charles or Troy. Why that area? Why did you pick her, to leave her there?
Gary Muehlberg: I don't know. I really don't.
Det. Jodi Weber: Do you remember doing that?
Gary Muehlberg: Yes, somewhat.
Det. Jodi Weber: What do you remember about that?
Gary Muehlberg: Just driving out the highway, and...
Det. Jodi Weber: Remember what direction you were going? What direction you were going?
Gary Muehlberg: Oh, north, northwest.
Det. Jodi Weber: Okay. What else do you remember?
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah.
Det. Jodi Weber: Did anybody see you?
Gary Muehlberg: That you know? Not that I recall. I mean, I don't remember stopping or anything when I left my house.
Det. Jodi Weber: Is anybody with you?
Gary Muehlberg: No. I was by myself.
Det. Jodi Weber: Are there others tied into this?
Gary Muehlberg: Yes? Other... You mean other people?
Det. Jodi Weber: Yeah.
Gary Muehlberg: Oh, no.
Det. Jodi Weber: Yeah. Okay. We were hoping to...
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah, I don't think anybody was with me when this happened.
Det. Jodi Weber: Are you sure?
Gary Muehlberg: Not 100 percent.
Det. Jodi Weber: Right. Do you know anybody by the name of Danny?
Gary Muehlberg: Who?
Det. Jodi Weber: Danny (surname withheld).
Gary Muehlberg: Oh, yeah... Go ahead. Just don't ring any bells. Who is he?
Det. Jodi Weber: He's just another name that came up throughout the years. We thought maybe he was an acquaintance of yours. Once we got your DNA, we've been doing some back-checking on a lot of different people, and his name came up because he used to run to the diner. We don't know if he went to the diner or not. We're kind of hoping you could maybe fill in some of the blanks on that. Because that's not a real, you know, Danny (surname withheld) is not a real common name.
Gary Muehlberg: No. Danny would be, but not the last name.
Det. Jodi Weber: Yeah. Did you know any Dannys?
Gary Muehlberg: Over years I probably have, but I can't place them right now. I know some Dannys in here, but...
Det. Jodi Weber: Anybody that you might have run with when you picked up some prostitutes?
Gary Muehlberg: No. No, I believe I was always by myself.
Det. Jodi Weber: So when you had Robyn at your house, do you have any idea how long she was there? Are we talking long periods of time, or...
Gary Muehlberg: No, it wouldn't have been over a day or two.
Det. Jodi Weber: Okay. So by the time you picked her up, you had her about a day or two, and then, did that get that long, and then you disposed of her somewhere in St. Charles?
Gary Muehlberg: I know it was west of my house. Northwest.
Det. Jodi Weber: Coming out 70? Huh? Coming out Highway 70?
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah.
Det. Jodi Weber: Do you remember how far you got into St. Charles? Did you get off of, you know, you go from St. Charles, St. Peters, O'Fallon and Wentzville, and then make a right to go up to Lincoln County and Troy area? Do you recall if it was, you drove that far that way?
Gary Muehlberg: Was that Highway 79? There's a Highway 79.
Det. Jodi Weber: Yeah.
Gary Muehlberg: [unclear: "Could I" / "I could have"] traveled that occasionally going up to Iowa to visit family.
Det. Jodi Weber: Is that the only highway you took up to Iowa?
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah. Yeah, because it was mainly a straight shot.
Det. Jodi Weber: Okay. There's other highways.
Gary Muehlberg: I'm not positive. Oh, I [unclear: "don't think" / "'m thinking"] it was 79. There's a kind of a cloverleaf, semi-cloverleaf interchange.
Det. Jodi Weber: [unclear: "How was that?" / "Was it"] 64?
Det. Jodi Weber: Did 79 go straight up to Iowa, or did it go up into Hannibal?
Gary Muehlberg: Hannibal and Louisiana.
Det. Jodi Weber: Right. That was 79.
Gary Muehlberg: That's 79. Okay. I took 64, then, going into Iowa.
Det. Jodi Weber: 61 or 64, the same thing. 61 or 64; some people call it 64, some people call it 61.
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah, there's so much... At one time I know Lindbergh and Gravois had state highway numbers and stuff, but I don't remember what they were.
Det. Jodi Weber: So you think you took 64 up north?
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah.
Det. Jodi Weber: You remember how far you went up on 64?
Gary Muehlberg: No way. I don't know. Can I get a glass of water or something? [unclear: "So I'm gonna dry my entrance" / "Um, when I first put them in"]...
Det. Jodi Weber: Yeah. Sure.
Det. Jodi Weber: Well, if you, I didn't know if you, because you traveled up to Iowa, if you're very familiar with that highway.
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah. I got a sister and her family live up in Atkins, Iowa, now.
Det. Jodi Weber: Okay. So you went up there quite a bit back in the day.
Gary Muehlberg: Oh, two or three times a year, probably.
Det. Jodi Weber: Okay. So do you recall how long you might have been on the highway? [pause] Was it before or after Troy?
Gary Muehlberg: I'm sure over [unclear: "that" / inaudible]. I know it was, I think, a gravel country road that I turned on.
Det. Jodi Weber: Okay.
Gary Muehlberg: I mean, it wasn't no main artery or nothing.
Det. Jodi Weber: They're going to bring you some water.
Det. Jodi Weber: Do you remember what side off the highway?
Gary Muehlberg: The west side, maybe.
Det. Jodi Weber: Okay. How far did you go down...
Gary Muehlberg: That's a good old saying down here.
Det. Jodi Weber: Is there really?
Gary Muehlberg: So, yes, you're in the finest. You're in Potosi, nothing but the best that the DOC has to offer.
Det. Jodi Weber: I never heard that.
Gary Muehlberg: Well, it's, I mean, I've been down here since '90, beginning '96, and from what I hear tell, it's the better of the camps, as far as air-conditioned, size-wise, things of that nature.
Mike Harvey: What, did I miss anything?
Det. Jodi Weber: Yeah, we were talking. He said he went west off the highway. But you think it was as soon as you got off the highway? How far do you think you went?
Gary Muehlberg: I don't, I could guess, but I'm not sure. It'd just be guessing.
Det. Jodi Weber: Okay. But you said it wasn't far, right?
Gary Muehlberg: Okay. I mean, probably under eight or nine miles. Ten miles.
Det. Jodi Weber: Okay. Do you remember what side of the highway that you left the mattresses?
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah, it would have been on the west side of 64, 61.
Det. Jodi Weber: Okay. And then what side of the highway, you said you turned like on a, you thought maybe it was a gravel road?
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah.
Det. Jodi Weber: You remember what side of the highway, or the gravel road, it was on, you left the mattresses?
Gary Muehlberg: I don't know if I left the mattresses as soon as, I see, I can't recall right now. If it was on the west side, I had to go up the highway and come back down the other side, you know, headed north on 64, [unclear: "ring" / "where in"] turn around somewhere. I'm thinking, was that all divided highway then or not? I think it was. I know back then some of 64 going up to Iowa was divided; some of it wouldn't. I think now it all is, but...
Det. Jodi Weber: Do you remember, I know it's going way back, do you remember what kind of weather it was? Rain or something?
Gary Muehlberg: I know, night.
Det. Jodi Weber: Wintertime? Nighttime? You say it was nighttime?
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah. Less traffic out.
Det. Jodi Weber: Right.
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah.
Det. Jodi Weber: Or what time of the year it was?
Gary Muehlberg: I mean, I sure don't. I sure don't. [pause] I know I'm not being real helpful right now. It's been so long ago.
Det. Jodi Weber: Trust me, you're doing real well.
Mike Harvey: Because we know a lot of this stuff.
Gary Muehlberg: Not inside of me.
Det. Jodi Weber: Well, I understand that.
Gary Muehlberg: And this [unclear: "did probably" / "proudly"], I don't want to seem morbid or bizarre. It's kind of like I got a load off my shoulders.
Det. Jodi Weber: Good. You know, we talked about that on the way home, you know, after we talked to you last time.
Gary Muehlberg: I do have a conscience.
Det. Jodi Weber: Obviously.
Gary Muehlberg: Well, you wouldn't be where we're at right now.
Det. Jodi Weber: Obviously you do. That's why we want to clear these up. That's why we got three different letters from three different prosecutors.
Gary Muehlberg: [unclear: "That's three, man" / "Three desks, three, man"]. The one last time we just talked about maybe two.
Det. Jodi Weber: I think we actually did talk about two.
Mike Harvey: No, we didn't talk about it. We said there were three, but I don't think we got into detail.
Det. Jodi Weber: Yeah, we never got into the details. The third, yeah. But I mean, you said you have a conscience. You know, whatever we can get cleared up in one big, you know, package would be better, rather than everybody coming down here to talk to you and disrupting your, your life down here.
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah. I mean, it wasn't the most intelligent thing to do in my life, but it'd be stupid, with all the evidence you say you got, and I'm, I'm sure you've got what you're saying you have, to deny it, and putting what family I got left, and myself, and the victims' family through two or three years of trial, motions, hearings.
Det. Jodi Weber: Yeah. Right. Yeah. So that's why we're trying to get as much information this go-around, and put this to rest.
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah.
Det. Jodi Weber: So you said the mattresses came from your house?
Gary Muehlberg: Okay.
Det. Jodi Weber: Can you, do you recall what happened with her after she was at your house? You said you had sex with her, and can you recall what happened after that?
Gary Muehlberg: No. I mean, right now, maybe, maybe [unclear: "when I lay in my bunk" / "we want to lane him on bone" / "lean in my bone"] thinking about it, these pieces might come back, but right now it's like, I don't know.
Det. Jodi Weber: Did something anger you? Did something anger you that she did, or...
Gary Muehlberg: Not that I recall. I mean, something had to pop somewhere, to, three different girls, you'd say.
Det. Jodi Weber: Would you, was there, you know, I've studied a lot of these cases, and as, sometimes after the sexual act, people don't pay, and that's when an argument starts. Had that ever, had you ever, do you remember anything like that, where you may have paid and took the money back, or just didn't pay, and threw her, you know...
Gary Muehlberg: No, because I'm sure they were paid before they got in the van to go up to my house. Like I said, I can't remember what, what prompted me to do this.
Det. Jodi Weber: Do you remember doing it?
Gary Muehlberg: [unclear: "This of it" / partly masked in captions] I do, but not...
Det. Jodi Weber: Okay. What do you remember doing?
Gary Muehlberg: I don't actually remember actually taking her life.
Det. Jodi Weber: Do you remember after, what happened after that happened?
Gary Muehlberg: I remember taking the mattresses out of the house and putting them in the van.
Det. Jodi Weber: Okay.
Gary Muehlberg: And driving out to wherever I left them.
Det. Jodi Weber: Do you remember putting her in the mattresses?
Gary Muehlberg: Not totally.
Det. Jodi Weber: Do you remember what, what she was wrapped in, in between the mattresses?
Gary Muehlberg: What she was wrapped in?
Det. Jodi Weber: Was there any clothing, any, anything like that?
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah, I sure don't. I don't. [pause] I wish I could give more details to help out, but... because it can't hurt me anymore.
Mike Harvey: Let me show you another picture. And like she said, we don't want a whole bunch of people coming down and talking to you, you know, too. [pause] Does she look familiar?
Gary Muehlberg: She almost looks like a girl I dated from a little diner. (A woman he dated, name withheld.) I can't think of her last name now.
Mike Harvey: And this is Sandra Little. This is Sandra Little. It says Sharon; I don't know if the booking officer got that wrong or what, but yeah, it's Sandra Little. And she was found in O'Fallon. And I think we talked about that a little bit last time, about the box.
Gary Muehlberg: I remember talking about me being a carpenter at one point.
Mike Harvey: Mm-hmm.
Det. Jodi Weber: What do you remember about her? What do you remember about her?
Gary Muehlberg: Not much at all. What kind of box?
Mike Harvey: It was a, like plywood. It was a box that was built.
Det. Jodi Weber: So when you lived at the house on East Edgar, did you keep anyone, any of these girls, for a period of time?
Gary Muehlberg: Not more than a day or two.
Det. Jodi Weber: Okay. Do you recall other ones?
Gary Muehlberg: No, I sure don't. [pause] Well, I wish you could hypnotize me, help me remember some of this stuff, to get it off.
Mike Harvey: Yeah. This, and again, this is the O'Fallon case; they worked it back in the day, and I worked this one. This is the one I worked back in the day. Actually, I worked all three of them. This is the one I worked back in the day as well. And again, she's a prostitute.
Gary Muehlberg: Okay. From where? St. Louis?
Mike Harvey: Around the Cherokee Street area.
Gary Muehlberg: Where?
Mike Harvey: Cherokee Street area. South St. Louis.
Gary Muehlberg: Right, right.
Mike Harvey: Now, we don't know if there's more than three. All we know is that there's, at least we got three of them connected through, you know, all the lab work and everything we're doing. So, and this is one of them that's connected. So basically, we believe this is another one that you might have done.
Gary Muehlberg: Oh, she sure don't look familiar.
Det. Jodi Weber: Now this is, I don't know the date on this photograph, or how early it is before she was taken. Do you recall?
Mike Harvey: Well, the date on here says 5-4 of '89, and she was, 1990 is when she...
Det. Jodi Weber: So that could be an old picture.
Gary Muehlberg: '89?
Mike Harvey: Less than a year. Less than a year.
Det. Jodi Weber: What was this one? '89, too?
Mike Harvey: I don't know. I'd have to look at it. This is the date.
Det. Jodi Weber: Oh, I'm sorry. It looks like an '89.
Mike Harvey: So the box Sandra was in is similar to a box that Doc was in.
Gary Muehlberg: Well, I sure don't remember making a box.
Det. Jodi Weber: Did you have any old dressers sitting around that...
Gary Muehlberg: I mean, I had furniture.
Det. Jodi Weber: Do you ever remember removing the bottoms of the drawers, that she might have fit in, and then the box built around her?
Gary Muehlberg: Oh. I always think, when you said a box, something that was put together from scratch. Furniture.
Mike Harvey: This box may not have been built by you. I mean, it may have been a box that you, I don't know, you know, you had from a work site or something like that, that you might have stored other things in. But she originally was put into a dresser, small dresser drawer.
Gary Muehlberg: I really don't, it don't look that familiar. [pause] It's definitely a box, but I, I can't tell. I mean, maybe it'll come back to me in time.
Det. Jodi Weber: Yeah. Like he said, we're just trying to avoid, we're just trying to avoid a bunch of people coming down here, you know?
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah.
Det. Jodi Weber: [unclear: "Getting used to views" / inaudible] and everything.
Gary Muehlberg: Right.
Det. Jodi Weber: And obviously, when we leave here, the prosecutors are going to ask us. I said, obviously, when we leave here, the prosecutors are going to ask us how it went, so...
Gary Muehlberg: You know, hopefully they're satisfied for me, with me confessing, but...
Mike Harvey: Let me ask you this. And I think you're being honest with us. Let me ask you this, and I want you to really think about this. Were there more than one prostitute that you might have killed? Now, think about it.
Gary Muehlberg: Because I [unclear: "wouldn't know" / "would know"]... As old as I am, I would remember if there was more than one. I mean, from what you're telling me, it does touch on recall a little bit. Like I said, 30-some-odd years ago...
Mike Harvey: I'm not really talking about details right now. I'm talking about the fact that, was there more than one prostitute that you were involved in taking their life?
Gary Muehlberg: Taking their life?
Mike Harvey: I mean, this is kind of a important question for you.
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah.
Mike Harvey: That's why we got all three prosecutors wanting to do this all at once. Have you killed more than one prostitute?
Gary Muehlberg: These two for sure. I mean, I mean, there's bits and pieces that I remember, but not all the details, and...
Mike Harvey: And I understand that. I understand that.
Gary Muehlberg: But don't patronize me.
Mike Harvey: Okay. I'm not patronizing you. Why do you, how do you think I'm patronizing?
Gary Muehlberg: I don't, I mean...
Mike Harvey: Because I don't really understand what "patronizing" is, honestly. I don't. People say that, and I'm like, what about, what have I said to patronize you?
Gary Muehlberg: Probably nothing. It's just, it's impossible for me to know what's going through your mind, your mind, and vice versa. I mean, there's things going through my mind right now that is clarifying some of this, but it's also foggy, you know, still.
Mike Harvey: Well, I get it. I mean, we came here after 30-some years to talk to you, but I thought maybe since we were here last time, some of the stuff, even, like you said, you've been thinking a lot about it.
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah.
Mike Harvey: And I thought maybe you'd recall some of the stuff.
Gary Muehlberg: I'm almost sure I've been with more than two young ladies like this, but God, I hope I didn't kill them all.
Mike Harvey: We don't... Yeah. You know, we don't, let's put it this way: at this point, we don't know of any other ones other than these three. Doesn't mean there's...
Gary Muehlberg: And I, like I said earlier, I don't know what prompted me to take their lives, because I, I dated some pretty nice young ladies. Why I would go out and do something like this...
Mike Harvey: Well, I mean, it was venting frustration, hostilities, anger. You were obviously a different person then.
Gary Muehlberg: Apparently, in more than one way.
Mike Harvey: Right, because you say you have a conscience now.
Gary Muehlberg: I've always had a conscience.
Mike Harvey: Okay.
Gary Muehlberg: Maybe not all the time totally in charge of it.
Mike Harvey: Did something make you...
Gary Muehlberg: I wish I was in control. I really do wish I knew what prompted me to do this, because there's a bunch of mixed emotions: embarrassment, ashamed of myself. [pause] What tipped the scale to cause this to happen, I myself may never know. You know, admitting something to other people is relatively easier than accepting the responsibility to oneself. I don't know if that makes sense, but I mean...
Mike Harvey: Absolutely, it does.
Gary Muehlberg: I've done things I'm damn proud of.
Mike Harvey: Of course.
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah. This just ain't one, none of them.
Mike Harvey: I know it's hard to do, but now's the time. Now's the time to get it out. I mean, like you said, you don't know how much time you have left. The right thing to do is to get it all out and get it off your conscience, and knowing that you did what you could while you were on this earth.
Gary Muehlberg: You know, right now I feel like I've done a lot, [unclear: "to stop me off" / "you stopped me, y'all"], and I guess confessing to these...
Det. Jodi Weber: We just wanted a little bit more detail, and what was going, you know, what happened.
Gary Muehlberg: I can understand it. You all want as much detail to make sure you got the right guy.
Det. Jodi Weber: No. We got all the evidence, as you, and I showed you the lab reports, you know, we were here before. You were saying some other name, Danny, somebody. That's just a name that had come up throughout the 30 years. We don't have his DNA. We have yours. So we thought maybe, because some of the stuff, you know, linked, looked like it linked to Danny, so we thought maybe you were friends with him, or knew him at some point, or that name. But his DNA didn't come back to anything, and then it hit to you. And then every piece of evidence has come back with your DNA.
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah.
Det. Jodi Weber: So we already know, we already know we're talking to the right person. We're just hoping we can get a little bit more detail as far as how it happened, why it happened.
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah. I wish, I wish you could get that information, because I would enjoy it.
Det. Jodi Weber: Yeah.
Gary Muehlberg: To know. Like I said, I come from good family, good people. I've always tried to do maybe not the right thing, but the proper thing. I just...
Det. Jodi Weber: Because these dates are similar to each other, within months of each other. A couple months here. And then again, all these happened in 1990. So these booking photos were just the year prior.
Gary Muehlberg: They happened in 1990? How come there's '89 dates on it?
Det. Jodi Weber: Well, these are when they were arrested, in 1989.
Gary Muehlberg: Oh, okay.
Det. Jodi Weber: And then the actual incident, the murders, happened in 1990. So a year after these pictures.
Mike Harvey: Those are the, those are the mugshots.
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah. Yeah.
Det. Jodi Weber: Mm-hmm.
Gary Muehlberg: Well, that clarified that.
Det. Jodi Weber: Mm-hmm.
Gary Muehlberg: What, what time of year did it, all, did you find them?
Det. Jodi Weber: She was March, and she went missing in fall of 1990, but she wasn't found until February '91. So that's why I asked you how long you might have kept, kept her.
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah, she wouldn't have been at my house that long, because I had custody of my kids a couple weekends a month.
Det. Jodi Weber: Can you remember where you would have taken her? Mm-hmm. Do you remember where you took her? Did you own any property, or garages, or somebody else's house, or...
Gary Muehlberg: No, I didn't...
Det. Jodi Weber: In the woods, or...
Gary Muehlberg: No. I didn't own any property.
Det. Jodi Weber: Because from the time she was taken until the time they found her was a pretty good amount of time.
Gary Muehlberg: Sounds like what, three or four months?
Det. Jodi Weber: And she was relatively, I mean, she was really decomposed when we found her.
Gary Muehlberg: Mm-hmm.
Det. Jodi Weber: So we're just trying to figure out the location where she might have been, because the first one, you said you didn't [unclear: "keep her" / "reach for" / "think"] maybe a day, or that much, a couple days. And this one here, it was dropped off on the day it was found. It wasn't like somebody walking down the woods and finding it. It was on a particular area where you could hardly not see it, and somebody stopped and picked it up, like they were intentionally left...
Mike Harvey: Yes.
Det. Jodi Weber: To be found.
Mike Harvey: Yes.
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah, I know. [pause] I'm thinking it was along a highway. Probably 70.
Det. Jodi Weber: Okay.
Gary Muehlberg: But I can't place how far O'Fallon was out of St. Louis. I know it was west of St. Louis, but...
Det. Jodi Weber: Do you remember what was around there?
Gary Muehlberg: You mean like buildings?
Det. Jodi Weber: Buildings, restaurants, shopping centers.
Gary Muehlberg: Sure. I don't think it was isolated.
Det. Jodi Weber: Do you remember which vehicle you used that time?
Gary Muehlberg: Probably the van, because I don't think I had the pickup truck in, in the early '90s. I think I got that in like late '91, early '91. It might have been, I mean, I can't remember when I exactly got that.
Det. Jodi Weber: Do you think it would have been at nighttime? You think it would have been at nighttime or daytime, or...
Gary Muehlberg: No. Nighttime. Early morning, when there's not a lot of, not a lot of traffic out on a highway.
Mike Harvey: But there's always traffic on a highway.
Det. Jodi Weber: Do you remember getting that box out? I mean, you're a big guy, so I would imagine it wouldn't be too hard for you.
Gary Muehlberg: I'm thinking it might have been, it's not a box I made.
Det. Jodi Weber: Okay.
Gary Muehlberg: It had to be existing, something like a shipping crate, a piece of furniture.
Det. Jodi Weber: Would that have been something you might have had in your basement?
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah, it could have been.
Det. Jodi Weber: Remember what might have been shipped in it? You say because you had a lot of furniture?
Gary Muehlberg: No, just furniture in a house, like bedroom sets, living room sets, kitchen sets, stuff like that. But I don't think it's something that was just laying around.
Det. Jodi Weber: If it had drawers, like a dresser.
Mike Harvey: Well, this box was actually around. The dresser was inside the box.
Gary Muehlberg: Mm-hmm.
Mike Harvey: The dresser...
Det. Jodi Weber: Can you picture the dresser, if possible? And you have to realize that that dresser, she was in that dresser for a long period of time, so the dresser doesn't look probably exactly like your...
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah, it looks like dresser fronts, or drawers, or something.
Det. Jodi Weber: Mm-hmm. Or drawer fronts.
Gary Muehlberg: And this whole thing was inside a box?
Det. Jodi Weber: It was inside this.
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah, it looks like a dresser.
Det. Jodi Weber: Anything come back to you looking at that? This looks like it's wrapped in some kind of paper, or cloth, or something.
Gary Muehlberg: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Det. Jodi Weber: So you said you remember bits and pieces about her, and about this incident?
Gary Muehlberg: I mean, that vaguely looks like a piece of furniture, but it don't look like it's in real good shape.
Det. Jodi Weber: Sure. Like I said, you know, she was in there for a while, so it's not in really good shape.
Gary Muehlberg: She'd look familiar, but I know it's not (the woman he dated, name withheld). (She) had some facial features similar, the hair and stuff. [pause] It's unfortunate to say, it's just somebody that I picked up on the streets, or in a restaurant or something, down in south St. Louis.
Det. Jodi Weber: Is this your dresser, or would you have gotten it from somewhere else?
Gary Muehlberg: Looks like something I had in the bedroom.
Det. Jodi Weber: Was it part of a, a set? You know, like the...
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah. I think I bought a bedroom set when I was in undergrad school, back in mid to late '70s, up in Fayette, Missouri. [pause] I mean, it's hard to tell, because there's not a lot of detail on it.
Det. Jodi Weber: Sure. Would that have been in the same bedroom as the mattresses would have been?
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah, because the house only had, it was a one-bedroom house. It was a small house.
Det. Jodi Weber: Okay.
Gary Muehlberg: Under 900 square feet.
Det. Jodi Weber: Did you keep the rest of that bedroom set? In that house?
Gary Muehlberg: No. [pause] I think some of the bedroom set the ex-wife got in the divorce. Like, it had a king-size headboard, and a big dresser, and a smaller... not much bigger than this.
Det. Jodi Weber: So she would have taken that bedroom set, or the one that this belonged to?
Gary Muehlberg: I know she got the king-size headboard.
Det. Jodi Weber: Okay. And which ex-wife was, would that be? Which ex-wife would that be?
Gary Muehlberg: Which one? Hmm.
Det. Jodi Weber: Mm-hmm.
Gary Muehlberg: The second one. I only had two wives.
Det. Jodi Weber: Okay. So (his former wife, name withheld).
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah.
Det. Jodi Weber: Somebody took the time to take the bottom of the drawers out. You know, you got the face, but somebody took the time to take the bottom of the drawers out and then inserted her in there.
Gary Muehlberg: Okay. [unclear: "That sounds amazing" / "That sound..."].
Det. Jodi Weber: That would just be, they took all of this white stuff off the guts. Yeah. And then this would be the top of the dresser.
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah, that definitely looks like a dresser in a, in a box, but I don't remember that box. I'm not saying I didn't make it, but I don't remember making it.
Det. Jodi Weber: Do you remember taking the bottoms of those drawers out?
Gary Muehlberg: Huh?
Det. Jodi Weber: Apparently to make room to put her in. Do you remember that, or you just saying...
Gary Muehlberg: Somewhat.
Det. Jodi Weber: Yeah? You remember doing it?
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah.
Det. Jodi Weber: Do you remember where you kept her? Do you remember where you kept her?
Gary Muehlberg: No, I sure don't. Because Doc was kept for a while in the basement. Not a whole lot.
Det. Jodi Weber: Could you have kept her in the basement and just decided, now it's time to get rid of her?
Gary Muehlberg: It's possible.
Gary Muehlberg: How did she die?
Det. Jodi Weber: That's what I was hoping you would tell us. Because she was nothing, not much left of her.
Gary Muehlberg: Boy, I sure don't remember. It's something I guess I've blocked out.
Det. Jodi Weber: Do you remember bringing her to the house?
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah, I don't know if I brought her. I'm not real positive I brought either one, or they came up there, like with an escort service or something. I think I picked them up somewhere in south St. Louis.
Det. Jodi Weber: Because wouldn't escort service come back and check on them? Wouldn't escort service come back and check on them after a period of time?
Gary Muehlberg: You would think.
Det. Jodi Weber: I mean, they wouldn't just drop them off from south St. Louis and have them walk back.
Gary Muehlberg: I don't think they'd walk back.
Det. Jodi Weber: So somebody... Or did you pick them up, then?
Gary Muehlberg: I know I've had a few dates through an escort service. But I think these I picked up. I met on the streets or something, or in like a White Castle or a Steak 'n Shake, or some kind of restaurant.
Det. Jodi Weber: So the ones you picked up at the escort service, did they come to your house, or did you pick them up from...
Gary Muehlberg: No, they came to the house.
Det. Jodi Weber: Okay. [pause] Did you ever frequent any hotels around south St. Louis, if you would pick somebody up off the street and take them to a hotel, or anything like that? Or would you more than likely bring them back to your house?
Gary Muehlberg: More than likely bring them back to the house.
Det. Jodi Weber: When you lived on California, did you ever bring anybody to the house you lived in on California?
Gary Muehlberg: I was married then. So that wouldn't, there would be nobody.
Det. Jodi Weber: And you lived on Humphreys too, right? Is that right?
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah.
Det. Jodi Weber: Would you ever bring anybody to Humphreys?
Gary Muehlberg: No. (His former wife, name withheld) and I were still married, [unclear: "I don't know" / "almost"], because we got married and we moved into an apartment building on Keokuk and California, and then we moved to Humphreys, which was just a block or two south of Tower Grove Park. And then we moved closer to her family, on Arsenal, and then we bought the house up in Bel-Ridge.
Det. Jodi Weber: Did she live at the house in Bel-Ridge?
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah.
Det. Jodi Weber: Okay.
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah.
Det. Jodi Weber: What was the reason you got divorced? What was the reason you got divorced? You don't mind me asking?
Gary Muehlberg: We weren't, I only knew, we knew each other like less than a month when we got married.
Det. Jodi Weber: Okay.
Gary Muehlberg: And we really didn't know each other that well, and she didn't know me that, I mean, for any length of time.
Det. Jodi Weber: Was that hard on you, the divorce?
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah, with kids. But it was a, what they call a no-fault divorce, with [unclear: "life" / "light"]. It's just one of the things that happened.
Det. Jodi Weber: So how long did she live at the house in Bel-Ridge?
Gary Muehlberg: A couple years, probably, before we separated.
Det. Jodi Weber: Because I noticed you were doing some construction on the house, right? You were doing some construction on the house?
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah.
Det. Jodi Weber: So were you rehabbing it after she moved out, or how...
Gary Muehlberg: Rebuilding it. Had a faulty wiring in the basement, and had a sizable fire.
Det. Jodi Weber: How, did you lose a lot of stuff in the fire?
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah.
Det. Jodi Weber: You did. What year was the fire?
Gary Muehlberg: '91, '92. Let's see, Doc died early part of '93. Might have been early '92 I had the fire, and that was because of the wiring.
Det. Jodi Weber: Yeah. Yeah. Was it a total loss?
Gary Muehlberg: The inside was pretty well gutted.
Det. Jodi Weber: Like all your personal belongings and all that? All your personal belongings?
Gary Muehlberg: The big majority of them. I mean, I salvaged a lot of stuff and put it in storage while the house was being rebuilt.
Det. Jodi Weber: Would you have had a storage? Would you have had a storage that you might have kept her in for a while?
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah. Storage room back then? Excuse me. Like I said, this was, what, early '91, late '90...
Det. Jodi Weber: All of them went missing in 1990, and then Sharon, Sharon wasn't found until February '91.
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah, see, that was more than a year before I had trouble at the house with the fire.
Det. Jodi Weber: Okay.
Gary Muehlberg: So I wouldn't have had any storage.
Det. Jodi Weber: Oh, you wouldn't have had a storage shed then?
Gary Muehlberg: That was after the fire.
Det. Jodi Weber: He thought maybe this was a crate. You don't recall what you would have...
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah, the outside of it looks like it could have been a crate, but the inside was, looks like pieces of furniture.
Det. Jodi Weber: You don't remember what came in that crate, or where you got it from?
Gary Muehlberg: No.
Det. Jodi Weber: Or what this stuff is? Because this, this is all like white paper, and there's some duct tape.
Gary Muehlberg: Maybe like a drop cloth for painting.
Det. Jodi Weber: Okay. [pause] Do you remember anything inside that dresser with Sandra? Anything inside the dresser? Yeah. Did you put anything in there?
Gary Muehlberg: No.
Det. Jodi Weber: Because obviously, if she's sitting around for a while, it's going to start to smell.
Gary Muehlberg: No.
Det. Jodi Weber: Anything to cover up?
Gary Muehlberg: No. [pause] Well, I wish I could remember more right now.
Det. Jodi Weber: Mainly to help me.
Gary Muehlberg: Right. I mean, what I can recall and remember right now is, I'm good for it, but I don't remember all the details of what was going on mentally or physically at the time. It'd be easy to say I did drugs and I don't remember all this, but I was, I might have smoked a little pot, but I was never into the drug culture.
Det. Jodi Weber: No? What about alcohol?
Gary Muehlberg: I used to enjoy going out, even when I was married or single, and going into a nightclub or a restaurant or a bar and drinking seltzer with a lime twist. I mean, I didn't have to drink alcohol to feel good. I did enough of that in college. Acquired a taste for Scotch. Oh, that was my choice, before I quit.
Mike Harvey: [unclear: "Shove us" / "Show this"]... Glenlivet, I mean?
Gary Muehlberg: Or Glenfiddich?
Mike Harvey: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Det. Jodi Weber: We have another one that we'd like to talk about.
Gary Muehlberg: Mm-hmm. Okay. The third one we talked about, I was like, how do you keep coming and coming?
Det. Jodi Weber: Well, we told you there's three. So this is Brenda Pruitt.
Gary Muehlberg: Same thing. What's the year on that?
Det. Jodi Weber: 1994... '89, and '90.
Gary Muehlberg: Oh, she looks like a rough one. I shouldn't say that. [pause] Looks like somebody who definitely would work the streets.
Det. Jodi Weber: Mm-hmm.
Gary Muehlberg: This one looked like she had more class. I mean, she took care of herself. Of course, mug shots don't always do a person justice.
Det. Jodi Weber: Sure. Yeah. That's at the lowest point.
Gary Muehlberg: Pruitt. [pause] So I knew of a Pruitt, but he worked, he worked for the Shriners at the Moolah Temple on the night crew. I don't think they were related.
Det. Jodi Weber: You remember what his first name was? Do you remember what his first name was?
Gary Muehlberg: Boy, sure don't.
Det. Jodi Weber: [unclear: "I'm sure that" / "Or if you don't"]... Okay. So she was found in Maryland Heights.
Interviewer: [exchange about a noise in the room, probably a device or alarm] Yeah, I know. We tried to turn it off; it'll go away.
Det. Jodi Weber: There you go.
Gary Muehlberg: But it wasn't [unclear: "in the fall over there" / "a whole..."]. They say if you unplug it, it sets off the alarm. Gee, there for a second I forgot where I was.
Det. Jodi Weber: Yeah. You're right, in Maryland Heights. Yeah. So you said you worked at the Shriners. That's also in Maryland Heights, is that right?
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah. The new Moolah Temple moved from, what was that, Lindell?
Det. Jodi Weber: Yeah.
Gary Muehlberg: Out to, Parkway Junior High School. They bought it and remodeled it.
Det. Jodi Weber: So you're kind of familiar with Maryland Heights?
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah. (An employer, name withheld), the one that I got involved with Doc and all this, lived in Maryland Heights.
Det. Jodi Weber: How long did you know (him)?
Gary Muehlberg: See, I was still married. We just bought the home in Bel-Ridge. I met (him) within months of moving into the house, looking for employment. He owned a construction company. We did a lot of remodeling of Rent-A-Center stores.
Det. Jodi Weber: So how did you meet him?
Gary Muehlberg: I can't remember who introduced us or where I met him. I don't know if I answered an ad in the paper, or went out and bid on a job, or maybe... I really don't remember how or where or who introduced us. It was, the name of his company slips my mind right now.
Det. Jodi Weber: So you bought the house in Bel-Ridge. What year was that?
Gary Muehlberg: Oh, late '80s.
Det. Jodi Weber: Okay.
Gary Muehlberg: '87, '88, '89, somewhere around there.
Det. Jodi Weber: Okay. So shortly after you bought the house, you said you met (him). [pause] So, Brenda, does she look familiar to you?
Gary Muehlberg: None of them, yeah. I couldn't pick out of a lineup, I mean.
Det. Jodi Weber: Okay.
Gary Muehlberg: No.
Det. Jodi Weber: So, same kind of thing, alongside a highway, in a container. [pause] Okay. The same year. [pause] Do you know where you might have taken her in Maryland Heights?
Gary Muehlberg: Off the highway somewhere. I mean, it wasn't directly on the highway. I think this one was, like, on the shoulder of Interstate 70.
Det. Jodi Weber: You're talking about Sandra Little, correct? Is that Sandra Little?
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah, that's Sandra.
Det. Jodi Weber: Okay, yeah. [pause] You don't remember what was around that area?
Gary Muehlberg: Malls, stores, car lots, car dealerships.
Det. Jodi Weber: That would have been on the outer road, not right on the highway.
Gary Muehlberg: Oh, yeah.
Det. Jodi Weber: The businesses would have been on the outer road.
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah.
Det. Jodi Weber: Do you remember near what exit?
Gary Muehlberg: Oh, I sure don't. I sure don't.
Det. Jodi Weber: And were you by yourself on that one?
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah, yeah. I don't, I would have remembered if I had an accomplice, and I don't think I did. I'm almost sure I didn't.
Mike Harvey: Hypothetically, if you did, who would be, who would you have been close enough to, that would do this, to assist you in any way?
Gary Muehlberg: Oh, that's a tough... Sitting here now, and prior to, I didn't think I was, what's the word, capable of doing this. I can't think of any of the people that I had as friends or associates or worked with to be involved doing this.
Det. Jodi Weber: Would you have told anybody about this?
Gary Muehlberg: No. This ain't anything that I would brag about.
Det. Jodi Weber: You know there's always conversations going on where you're at right now. Anybody in here that you talk to, that you would have told that you're good for these? Did you tell anybody about our visit last time?
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah, yeah, [unclear: "could just like now" / inaudible]. Well, last time, let's see, they called me out, and the officer escorted me over here directly. This morning they paged me, I went out, and they said, Officer [unclear: "Hale"] said, "You're wanted at the custody complex." I said okay, so I went back and got dressed.
Det. Jodi Weber: I see you're [unclear: "spit-shining boots" / "spent sharing boots"].
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah. Some things you, uh... It's hard to, I wish I hadn't, I wish I hadn't done this.
Det. Jodi Weber: Wow.
Gary Muehlberg: And believe it or not, that's liquid polish. They do have two inmates that have regular shoe polish, for doing the offices.
Det. Jodi Weber: Uh-huh. That's liquid?
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah. And now they don't sell it in the canteen, because of [unclear: "the sharded goods" / "charditude"] and stuff. I try to take care of them, but there's no more polish. And I sure ain't going to buy the paste wax, because that's, uh...
Mike Harvey: Get a whole bunch of trouble for that.
Det. Jodi Weber: I bet.
Gary Muehlberg: And like, you know from the Corps, first thing you do when you open Kiwi is you light it, so you can rub it in, a lot of spit in it. And it's, it's a security risk in a place like this. [unclear: "Cylinder napalm" / "Similar to napalm"].
Mike Harvey: Yeah. So true.
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah.
Det. Jodi Weber: Anyway. So would you, would you share who you told, that we came to visit you last time?
Gary Muehlberg: I think maybe my celly. And it wasn't nothing in detail, because they, they asked.
Det. Jodi Weber: Mm-hmm.
Gary Muehlberg: Because they know some of my family's not doing real good, and I've had phone calls before down here. [unclear: "But as does" / "as does"], yeah, they're trying to tie me into something that happened, a cold case file. But...
Det. Jodi Weber: Mm-hmm.
Gary Muehlberg: Nothing even close to being detailed about it.
Det. Jodi Weber: Right.
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah. There's nothing that I would brag about.
Det. Jodi Weber: Did your cellmate give you any advice? Did your cellmate give you any advice if we decided to come back?
Gary Muehlberg: [unclear: "So I did"]... They told me who he was, and I guess he was on a TV show.
Det. Jodi Weber: Did you know your cellmate was on a TV show?
Gary Muehlberg: There's been a couple of them in the past, yeah. Like, I just think, you read my mind. You all know the name Charlie [unclear: "Armitrod" / "Armatrot"; perhaps Armentrout]?
Det. Jodi Weber: Yeah. Well, I watched the show because I was curious. I watched the show he was on.
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah. And after a while you learn not to judge people down here. You just accept them for who they are at that moment. But when you think about their crimes, like, there's people in my wing that, uh, Henry Futo. He killed his mother and father and two brothers in south St. Louis.
Det. Jodi Weber: [unclear: "Armitrod" / "Armored Trout"]. So, like, Armitrod said he went to some, like, counseling they have here at the prison or something?
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah.
Det. Jodi Weber: And he said...
Gary Muehlberg: I think he killed his grandmother.
Det. Jodi Weber: Yeah.
Gary Muehlberg: With a baseball bat. Because there was an old joke before I got down here. They were out there playing softball, and something about, somebody yelled at him, "Hey, Trout, do you know how to use a baseball bat properly?" And when I heard, I didn't realize what they were talking about. I was like, whoa, okay, that was low.
Det. Jodi Weber: Yeah.
Gary Muehlberg: All over drugs, or so he says, or whatever.
Det. Jodi Weber: She wouldn't give money, right? She wouldn't give him money for drugs?
Gary Muehlberg: That's what the TV show led on. [unclear: "Blending belief" / inaudible]. This ain't going to be on TV, is it?
Det. Jodi Weber: I have no idea. Nothing. I don't do TV.
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah, I don't either. I hide from cameras.
Det. Jodi Weber: I do too. I hide from cameras.
Gary Muehlberg: I'm not the type of person that you want. Yeah, I watch some crime dramas like NCIS and stuff like that, but as far as cold case files and all that, no.
Det. Jodi Weber: You have no interest in that, huh?
Gary Muehlberg: It's not my ball of wax, or cup of tea.
Det. Jodi Weber: See if we can't get more information on this, the one that was in Maryland Heights.
Gary Muehlberg: Well, I wish I could.
Det. Jodi Weber: Do you remember what you put her in?
Gary Muehlberg: You read my mind.
Det. Jodi Weber: I'm just going to ask you how she was found.
Gary Muehlberg: It was a trash can.
Det. Jodi Weber: Okay.
Gary Muehlberg: Oh. I'm thinking a plastic trash can.
Det. Jodi Weber: Okay. What else do you remember?
Gary Muehlberg: Not that much.
Det. Jodi Weber: Does she have clothes on?
Gary Muehlberg: [unclear: "Dad"], I don't remember right now. [pause] I can't recall if she was clothed or not, or partially clothed.
Det. Jodi Weber: Did you secure the trash can at all? Did you secure the trash can at all?
Gary Muehlberg: Secured how?
Det. Jodi Weber: Did you, I mean, so she wouldn't fall out.
Gary Muehlberg: I would imagine, as long as the trash can stayed upright, she wouldn't fall out. I don't remember securing it, though.
Det. Jodi Weber: Do you remember where you took her? Where you dropped her off?
Gary Muehlberg: I'm thinking it was somewhere off of Page and 270. Some, an apartment complex.
Det. Jodi Weber: What time of day was that?
Gary Muehlberg: Probably at night.
Det. Jodi Weber: Okay. Do you remember what vehicle you used?
Gary Muehlberg: Probably the van. No, probably was a van, because I don't, I know I didn't have the pickup truck then.
Det. Jodi Weber: Okay.
Gary Muehlberg: I don't think I got the pickup truck until well after my house had the fire.
Det. Jodi Weber: Yeah. Do you remember how long you kept her?
Gary Muehlberg: Not long. I don't remember keeping any of them more than a day or two.
Det. Jodi Weber: Okay. You don't remember where you would have kept them? Maybe not at the house at East Edgar, but you might have kept them somewhere else?
Gary Muehlberg: No. You mean [unclear: "double moving" / "Del..."]? No.
Det. Jodi Weber: Yeah, because she was, like we said, she was pretty decomposed before she was found on the highway. So she evidently had to be somewhere. And when you talk about time to decompose, you're looking at a week, a month, six months.
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah, more like months.
Det. Jodi Weber: A month? Or more than... Obviously she went missing in 1990 and was found in February '91, so...
Gary Muehlberg: Sure don't. [pause] And same, same for her. She wasn't as bad as Sandra, but she evidently, I'm sure they were all taken from my house and left somewhere within a day of their demise.
Det. Jodi Weber: Any idea where that would have been?
Gary Muehlberg: Where what would have been?
Det. Jodi Weber: After you had them for a day in your house, and after their demise, where would they have gone? Because these were relatively found right after... [unclear: "the morning home" / "the morning of"].
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah, I can't... They had to be left at my house, because I don't, I didn't have a storage locker or anything.
Det. Jodi Weber: Maybe they were left outside the house somewhere? Did you have a big backyard at that house?
Gary Muehlberg: No. No. At one time, before we bought the house, it was, but the Inner Belt went through. It wasn't that big of a backyard.
Det. Jodi Weber: Now, you had a dog. Is that right?
Gary Muehlberg: I've had dogs all my life.
Det. Jodi Weber: Yeah. What kind of dog did you have during that time? In the '90s, 1990?
Gary Muehlberg: Let's see. When I first got married, (his former wife, name withheld) had a pure white, I think it had some wolf and shepherd in it. And that passed away, and we got a German shepherd.
Det. Jodi Weber: What was that dog's name?
Gary Muehlberg: Duke? Dap? No, Dap was the white dog. Oh boy, I don't remember offhand. Chief.
Det. Jodi Weber: Chief.
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah, I think, yeah, I'm almost sure it was Chief.
Det. Jodi Weber: And you said that's when you were married to (his former wife, name withheld), you had Chief?
Gary Muehlberg: Mm-hmm.
Det. Jodi Weber: Okay. Who got the dog in the divorce?
Gary Muehlberg: I did.
Det. Jodi Weber: Okay.
Gary Muehlberg: She got the cats, and I got the dog.
Det. Jodi Weber: Lucky you. I'd take the German shepherd too. I would take the German shepherd too.
Gary Muehlberg: I don't hate cats, but I don't like them.
Det. Jodi Weber: Me neither. So how long did Chief live with you?
Gary Muehlberg: Oh, until he, I had to put him down after the problem with the house burning, because my mom kept him while the house was being rebuilt. I'm thinking he got, he wasn't feeling real well, and I took him to a vet down in Kirkwood, and he had a sizable tumor that there was no hope for, so he was euthanized.
Det. Jodi Weber: Shortly after the fire? Mm-hmm. Shortly after the fire?
Gary Muehlberg: Oh, I'd say probably within six to eight months. And then when the house was over half rebuilt, I got a Siberian husky, some kind of husky, I think it's Siberian. Got him through a friend who was a police officer.
Det. Jodi Weber: What was his name? What was that dog's name?
Gary Muehlberg: Nemo.
Det. Jodi Weber: Okay. Is that the one that Doc was supposed to... Did you have a friend come over and let the dog out, or something?
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah, yeah. Okay. (A friend, name withheld.)
Det. Jodi Weber: Yeah, yeah. Gotcha. But you had the shepherd during this, these period of times?
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah. Yeah.
Det. Jodi Weber: So I was just thinking, if they were out in the backyard, that dog wouldn't leave those alone.
Gary Muehlberg: Probably. The house, the front yard and backyard were fenced in, but not completely closed off, so anytime the dogs went out there, on a leash, with a collar, so they wouldn't have sniffed out... The front yard was mainly fenced off, except for part of a section on the one side, where if the family was out, the dog would stay around. But as far as letting him out by himself... I had to chase him one time, and he caught himself, ran into a neighbor's yard that had a fence. He went in the gate.
Det. Jodi Weber: Oh, okay. Close the gate.
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah. Makes it easier to corral.
Det. Jodi Weber: Ah, yeah.
Gary Muehlberg: Most dogs, Superman would play hell with chasing. They can run.
Det. Jodi Weber: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. So do you remember, I know you said you can't really remember why or how you took their life, but that goes for Brenda. How did she die?
Gary Muehlberg: Same as Robyn. Strangled.
Det. Jodi Weber: Mm-hmm.
Gary Muehlberg: Definitely some bad memories coming up.
Det. Jodi Weber: Are you reliving that? Mm-hmm. Are you reliving it?
Gary Muehlberg: Trying to. Bits and pieces.
Det. Jodi Weber: What are the bits and pieces you're remembering about Brenda?
Gary Muehlberg: I mean, I don't recall where I met her, or how.
Det. Jodi Weber: Okay. How about after taking her life?
Gary Muehlberg: Just off of Page Avenue, off of 270. Some kind of apartment complex.
Det. Jodi Weber: Do you remember putting her in the trash can? Mm-hmm. Do you remember putting her in the trash can?
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah.
Det. Jodi Weber: Do you remember if she had any clothes on?
Gary Muehlberg: I can't recall if she was fully clothed or partially clothed. That detail I can't, I don't...
Det. Jodi Weber: And I don't know if we talked about it with Robyn, but I know we said a little bit, whether she had clothes on or not. Do you remember any of your clothes being in there? Or you used your clothes for any reason?
Gary Muehlberg: If I had any of my clothes in there, then it must have been subconsciously asking for help or something, or to be caught.
Det. Jodi Weber: Well, back then, that's probably the last thing on your mind, was DNA, you know?
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah.
Det. Jodi Weber: Unfortunately, at this day and age, that's how it's all coming about.
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah. I don't remember any clothes of mine with any of them. I'm not saying it wasn't, but I don't remember.
Det. Jodi Weber: Okay. There was a stocking cap that was in with Sandra. It had a business name on it. Do you remember any stocking caps you had back then, or any companies you worked for?
Gary Muehlberg: No, because I was never really into hats. Still not.
Det. Jodi Weber: Not in the wintertime?
Gary Muehlberg: No. I always had a full head of hair, and maybe working outdoors in construction, some kind of hat, but I don't remember.
Det. Jodi Weber: Anything you would have kept in that dresser?
Gary Muehlberg: Clothes. But if the drawer bottoms and everything were missing, it wouldn't have been anything in there to hold them.
Det. Jodi Weber: Was there clothes in there? It was a stocking cap.
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah, I don't... [pause] That's strange, that I would have put anything in there.
Det. Jodi Weber: Where did you work before you got into construction?
Gary Muehlberg: Oh, let's see. When we first got married, I worked for Clayton Courier, making bank runs out of St. Louis all the way down to Ironton, and places around in St. Louis. When I first came back from grad school, I taught school for a while, and [unclear: "a tractor trailer" / "at a tractor trailer"].
Det. Jodi Weber: Where did you teach school?
Gary Muehlberg: [unclear: "You worked Wheeler" / "Wheeler"] and State School 70 in Kirkwood. [unclear: "You worked Wheelers" / "Wheelers"] on Hampton and 44. [unclear: "He's like" / "You had like"] three or four square pods for gifted kids, gifted people, severely handicapped.
Det. Jodi Weber: Did you like that job?
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah. Yeah.
Det. Jodi Weber: What made you stop working there?
Gary Muehlberg: A friend and I bought a tractor trailer, or the tractor, not the trailer. We leased out to some company over in Illinois. Can't remember the name of it. They owned all the trailers, and independent truckers delivered their trailers.
Det. Jodi Weber: And where'd you work after that?
Gary Muehlberg: Hmm. Mainly... Let's see. When we lived on California, it was for Clayton Courier. And I know at one point, when we lived on Humphreys, I worked for myself. Minor construction, rehab. Contracted, had a lot of jobs.
Gary Muehlberg: A bunch of guys had a investment company. They were slumlords. A lot of Section 8 housing. [pause] You know, we moved up north, and I went to work for (his employer, name withheld), on and off. And I worked for Huffman Refrigeration. I was married then still. What's the old saying? A jack of all trades, a master of none.
Det. Jodi Weber: Did you ever work for an insurance company?
Gary Muehlberg: No. An insurance company? No. That's like too confining, an office job. I liked the freedom of working outdoors, or not the same isolated area every day of the week.
Det. Jodi Weber: Did you know anybody that worked for an insurance company?
Gary Muehlberg: Probably. Uh... Maybe my ex-wife's cousin? Let's see. I think (the cousin, name withheld) worked for an insurance company.
Det. Jodi Weber: Do you remember what it was called? Do you remember what it was called?
Gary Muehlberg: No. I sure don't.
Det. Jodi Weber: And that was (his former wife, name withheld)'s cousin?
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah. (The cousin, name withheld.)
Det. Jodi Weber: Were you good friends with him? Were you good friends with him?
Gary Muehlberg: Just family. They weren't, uh... They were gay. (The cousin and his partner, names withheld.) I accepted them only as people who had a choice to live their own life, but didn't really socialize a lot with them as a couple. More like family gatherings.
Det. Jodi Weber: Did you ever have them over at the house? Or did your wife ever have them over?
Gary Muehlberg: I'm sure they came over. Or we'd go over to their house.
Det. Jodi Weber: Do they enter into this?
Gary Muehlberg: No.
Det. Jodi Weber: Okay.
Gary Muehlberg: No. [pause] Talking of things, trying to loosen me up more and get my mind working.
Det. Jodi Weber: Yeah. Exactly. Yeah.
Gary Muehlberg: It's not bringing any more detail to any of this.
Det. Jodi Weber: No. Sometimes things come to you just by talking it out, you know.
Gary Muehlberg: Instant recall. Things you never expect.
Det. Jodi Weber: And you had said that she was in a trash can; if it was sitting upright, that it wouldn't fall over or anything like that. But if you put her in a van, and she has a tendency to fall over, would there have been any kind of a lid you put on it, or...
Gary Muehlberg: I'm sure there was a lid, because a trash can... [pause] Yeah, there was a lid to it.
Det. Jodi Weber: Did you ever have anybody over at the house, like you were worried about them finding out about any of this?
Gary Muehlberg: Mm-hmm. [pause] I saw this, the one that you said was badly decomposed. I can't remember having her at my house that long. That's why I thought mainly a day or two.
Det. Jodi Weber: Yeah. [pause] So in the last five weeks, that you said you've been thinking about these, you know, anything else come to mind that we haven't asked you about?
Gary Muehlberg: Mm-hmm. No, ma'am. [pause] No.
Det. Jodi Weber: Is it safe to say that we've presented three, okay, three cases? Is there a possibility there's more?
Gary Muehlberg: No. No.
Det. Jodi Weber: You know, because when this comes to light, there's going to be people probably calling me, wanting to know.
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah, there'd be ten minutes of fame, getting involved in this stuff, if they had any.
Det. Jodi Weber: Or they want to clear their case.
Gary Muehlberg: Yep.
Det. Jodi Weber: And they're going to ask, you know, for your DNA, to compare to their DNA. So if there is anything that we can clear up for you, to avoid...
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah.
Det. Jodi Weber: More visitors.
Gary Muehlberg: No. No, I can't.
Mike Harvey: Real quick. Excuse me.
Det. Jodi Weber: You need anything? You need anything?
Gary Muehlberg: No.
Det. Jodi Weber: You still good on water? You still good on water?
Gary Muehlberg: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Det. Jodi Weber: Okay.
Gary Muehlberg: Something, something tells me that when I get back in population, in the privacy of my cell, I should take notes, or start jotting things down, which might help remember some, some more details of all this. But...
Det. Jodi Weber: Can I give you my business card? Can I give you my business card?
Gary Muehlberg: You can. You did last time, but I didn't take it.
Det. Jodi Weber: Okay.
Gary Muehlberg: I'll take it this time.
Det. Jodi Weber: Because my email address and my phone number and everything's on there. So...
Gary Muehlberg: And now that we have our iPads, we can make phone calls anywhere in the housing unit.
Det. Jodi Weber: We don't have... Really? So from your cell you can make a phone call?
Gary Muehlberg: Oh, yeah. We can sit out in the wing.
Det. Jodi Weber: So, like, any time of the night?
Gary Muehlberg: No, they shut the phones off at count time, between 10 and, I think, seven in the morning; they're shut off.
Det. Jodi Weber: Okay.
Gary Muehlberg: And also during count times, where they lock us down for lunchtime, at like quarter to 11. They come around and count everybody at 11. Count clears, we're out by 11:30, 11:20. Sometimes count don't clear. But majority of the daytime, yeah, we can take the iPads anywhere in the camp except for medical. Take them out to the yard.
Det. Jodi Weber: There are people who have, like, very many songs on their iPads?
Gary Muehlberg: Three and 4,000 songs.
Det. Jodi Weber: Yeah. How do they get the songs?
Gary Muehlberg: Through the company, Securus.
Det. Jodi Weber: Do they have to pay for that?
Gary Muehlberg: Oh, yeah.
Det. Jodi Weber: Okay.
Gary Muehlberg: It varies from a buck and a half for a single to five or six bucks for an album. Now, the only mail we get is legal mail, magazines and newspapers. We cannot keep any envelopes. If I get legal mail, it's always opened in front of a caseworker, to check it for contraband.
Det. Jodi Weber: Okay.
Gary Muehlberg: They keep the envelopes. When I get letters or cards, they all get sent to Florida. They get scanned and put on the tablet. Cuts down on contraband.
Det. Jodi Weber: Oh. We just had a...
Mike Harvey: So you don't get to keep in your cell, like, a picture of somebody, or a card from somebody?
Gary Muehlberg: We used to. They haven't done anything, I think, as grandfathered in. We have photo albums and pictures, but now everything's on a tablet.
Det. Jodi Weber: Interesting.
Gary Muehlberg: We've had a couple of, a whole bunch of fentanyl overdoses.
Det. Jodi Weber: That's what the investigator was saying, or how it's getting in. I guess there's ways.
Gary Muehlberg: Well, you're kind of intelligent. Stop and think.
Det. Jodi Weber: Mm-hmm.
Gary Muehlberg: There's like all kinds of different ways. Right off the bat, people think, oh, they're coming in with the visits, through inmates.
Det. Jodi Weber: Mm-hmm.
Gary Muehlberg: It could be an unexpected delivery driver bringing canteen items down from a warehouse.
Det. Jodi Weber: Mm-hmm.
Gary Muehlberg: If somebody put a stash in, it could be staff.
Det. Jodi Weber: Yeah, I was thinking that. Guards.
Gary Muehlberg: They have caught staff members bringing certain things in, in the past, like when tobacco was taboo.
Det. Jodi Weber: Yeah.
Gary Muehlberg: They bring in a pack of cigarettes or something, you know. There's...
Det. Jodi Weber: What were the guards getting in exchange for that? Why would they do that?
Gary Muehlberg: [unclear: "We heard them" / "Wouldn't hurt them"].
Det. Jodi Weber: Yeah. The protection?
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah, probably. Stop and think again. When this camp first opened up, it's in rural Missouri.
Det. Jodi Weber: Mm-hmm.
Gary Muehlberg: Unemployment was really high. Prison guards don't make a lot of money.
Det. Jodi Weber: Correct.
Gary Muehlberg: And go to someone and offer them $1,000 to take in a matchbook of something.
Det. Jodi Weber: Mm-hmm.
Gary Muehlberg: People are greedy.
Det. Jodi Weber: Yeah.
Gary Muehlberg: You know, what would you all do if you didn't have a job, no income, and had a family to feed? Would you take some illegal money? Would you transport something? If I was desperate enough. Thinking it might be a one-time deal. Hoping it's a one-time deal, and find out you got hooked, because everything's on film, and then they blackmail you. Now, is it worth going to prison over?
Det. Jodi Weber: Right.
Gary Muehlberg: No. But you don't, case in point, you don't always look down the road at the end product.
Mike Harvey: Let me ask you a question. Back when these all happened, there was a whole lot of press. I mean, it was in every newspaper. Did you follow any of those? Do you recall? Did you...
Gary Muehlberg: I probably read articles in a newspaper, but I didn't go out of my way searching for it. I subscribed to the Post paper, even down here, for a long time, but it wasn't getting a paper or looking at a paper for a specific item. Unless it was coupons.
Mike Harvey: Would this have been something you would have cut out any articles on, to kind of keep track of where the cops were?
Gary Muehlberg: A scrapbook? No.
Mike Harvey: Not a scrapbook, but just kind of find out the progress of the police?
Gary Muehlberg: No.
Mike Harvey: So they wouldn't have come knocking on your door? Were you worried about that?
Gary Muehlberg: Oh, I'm sure subconsciously, in the back of my mind, there's always thoughts of getting caught.
Mike Harvey: Did you do things differently to avoid getting caught?
Gary Muehlberg: Change my routine? No. No. It's not like people go out and rob a bank and then go out and buy a brand-new Cadillac and drive around town. No.
Mike Harvey: You didn't change anything?
Gary Muehlberg: No. My, my habits, my lifestyle, for the most part, was all the same.
Mike Harvey: I mean, so you never thought, one day the police are going to come knocking on my door?
Gary Muehlberg: I'm sure there was that thought in the mind, and said, maybe they won't.
Mike Harvey: You know, these all happened in a relatively close time frame, and all of a sudden they stopped. [pause] Could that have been because you came to prison in '93?
Gary Muehlberg: No, I didn't. I didn't get arrested on this charge until early '93.
Mike Harvey: When did they stop? Well, the last one that we know of, the body was found in '91. February '91.
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah. [pause] I don't know.
Mike Harvey: If you were to think back, prior to anything happening, why, all of a sudden... Because you said you picked up many, quite a few young ladies from there.
Gary Muehlberg: Well, not as far as picking up to go out and paying.
Mike Harvey: Yeah.
Gary Muehlberg: But dating around. [pause] I mean, it's going through my mind, for many years, of what transpired to kick off this behavior, basically. And likewise, what happened to stop it?
Mike Harvey: Correct.
Gary Muehlberg: It wasn't going to prison, because if this was like '91, that's two years before I got this case with Doc.
Mike Harvey: Yeah.
Gary Muehlberg: I mean, what opened the faucet? What shut the faucet?
Mike Harvey: Right. Right.
Gary Muehlberg: Now I, for my own sake, I hope I can come up with some kind of answer, but... [pause] And if I've, like I said, I've dated for different reasons: relationships, friendships, camaraderie. Why would I revert to picking up a prostitute for a one-night stand? I mean, pick them up, pay them, go about your business. What caused these three not to continue on with their life?
Det. Jodi Weber: Did you ever pick up a prostitute and have any trouble over payment, where either you didn't pay them, or you took the money back when they weren't looking?
Gary Muehlberg: No.
Det. Jodi Weber: Because that happens a lot. Actually, this is probably the third case similar to this that I've worked, and that seems to be a lot of the reason, that somebody would actually take their money back from them, and then the fight would start.
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah. I mean, I've never been poor. I've never been extremely wealthy. I've always had money. And back then, man, $30, $35, you know, which, it wasn't a lot of money.
Det. Jodi Weber: Right. Do you recall, and again, it's been a long time, do you recall if any of these young ladies put up a big fight, where you might have gotten hurt, or you might have gotten scratched, or you might have, they picked up something to try to hit you, or...
Gary Muehlberg: Something to provoke this?
Det. Jodi Weber: Right.
Gary Muehlberg: No. [pause] Might be easier on me if I did.
Det. Jodi Weber: Right. It might come back, you think?
Gary Muehlberg: Anything's possible, but I can't... You know, when I remember things, it's in the middle of the night. Wait a minute. Three o'clock in the morning.
Det. Jodi Weber: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Probably.
Gary Muehlberg: And what not.
Det. Jodi Weber: I said, things come to me in the middle of the night. I wake up at three o'clock in the morning and I'm like, oh yeah, I forgot to do that, or something clicked.
Gary Muehlberg: Wait till you get older. You probably know.
Det. Jodi Weber: Yeah.
Gary Muehlberg: Three o'clock, if I sleep till three o'clock, it's a long night. And I go to bed at 10:30, 11 o'clock.
Det. Jodi Weber: Yeah.
Gary Muehlberg: Oh, there's, there's things here. It doesn't get any better, either.
Det. Jodi Weber: No.
Gary Muehlberg: It's like sitting there watching TV and going to fix a cup of coffee, put your stinger in the cup and walk out of the cell. And you remember the stinger's in the cup when you smell the plastic burning.
Det. Jodi Weber: Your stinger's what heats it?
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah, yeah. That's an immersible heater.
Det. Jodi Weber: Is that something they sell here? I mean, that's something you're allowed to have?
Gary Muehlberg: Oh, yeah. At one time we had Crock-Pots. I still got mine; they're grandfathered in. You'd be surprised what some of the conveniences we were allowed.
Det. Jodi Weber: Really?
Gary Muehlberg: Oh, yeah.
Det. Jodi Weber: I've seen, they had a show on TV where people in your situation would make a whole meal just out of what they got out of the...
Gary Muehlberg: Oh, yeah. Using your Crock-Pot, and the pizzas they make. I know y'all probably won't do it, but have them take you on a tour of the place, like the canteen, the items we can buy. I would, if there's not a supply crisis, but: saltine crackers, snack crackers, potted meats, salami, sausages, pizzas, soda, soups.
Det. Jodi Weber: And you're allowed to heat that up?
Gary Muehlberg: Oh, yeah. We got microwaves in, in five and six house. We have microwaves in the wing.
Det. Jodi Weber: But you can only use them at certain times, right? Are you allowed to use it any time of the day, or...
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah. Five house is the honor house, and unless there's a reason to be locked down, we can go in and out of our cells into the wing. Got jobs. I don't, I'm disabled, they say. But it's a different lifestyle, but we don't do without everything, you know. Soda, all kinds of soda, all kind of food.
Det. Jodi Weber: So how do you get your money? Does somebody help you out?
Gary Muehlberg: Family. Family help. [unclear: "Show yeah hi" / inaudible].
Det. Jodi Weber: Yeah. Go ahead. Have you talked to your family about any of this, that we came to visit you?
Gary Muehlberg: No. This is, no, this is nothing to brag about, talk about. This is something for me. And I'm sure I'm not the only one that, you try to suppress this kind of stuff, pretend it never happened.
Det. Jodi Weber: Yeah. Accepting it, and it did.
Gary Muehlberg: Oh, no, it's nothing I talk about in here. And this is something you accept, that happened, right? Yeah. I guess it's called a reality check. Even with Doc, the case I'm here on. People don't talk a lot about why they're here. There's an old saying: everybody in prison has one or two things in common. We either pled guilty or got found guilty. After that, we're all different individuals.
Interviewer: [unclear: "Meow" (captions only)].
Det. Jodi Weber: And even in these, the counseling thing, like Armitrod went to?
Gary Muehlberg: Oh, is that kind of... I did, for a period. There was different mental health classes on dealing with incarceration, with stress, loss of family, things like that. But nothing that we'd overly talk about this.
Det. Jodi Weber: Well, I understand. I was just watching the TV show that Armitrod was in, and he led to believe that it was one of these counseling sessions where he finally admitted to what he did. So I didn't know if you had that type of thing here, where...
Gary Muehlberg: Oh, yeah, there's, there's even talk about why you're in here, type thing.
Det. Jodi Weber: Yeah, yeah.
Gary Muehlberg: But I'm the type of individual, it's, why talk about it when I know why I'm here? I mean, some of the things at my trial I don't totally agree with. But I got convicted of it, and I was involved in it to a certain degree.
Det. Jodi Weber: What do you mean by that? What do you mean by that, if you don't mind me asking?
Gary Muehlberg: Well, you, you said you read the case with Doc.
Det. Jodi Weber: Yes.
Gary Muehlberg: Do not answer this; this ain't a question. But in your mind, was there any degree of doubt? Because where the murder weapon was found, where Doc's car was found, with my alibi, where I was when Doc was killed, there was no 100 percent evidence that I pulled the trigger of any pistol. I may have had knowledge prior to and after, and I'm not saying I did or didn't.
Det. Jodi Weber: Right, right.
Gary Muehlberg: But there was no smoking gun. The man was found in my house. That doesn't mean I killed him.
Det. Jodi Weber: Did you take the stand on that?
Gary Muehlberg: Couldn't. I wanted to, but my attorney advised against it, for a bunch of reasons, I think.
Det. Jodi Weber: Did you have a lot of priors, too?
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah, I'd done time in Kansas.
Det. Jodi Weber: Oh, okay.
Gary Muehlberg: And like, you know, sometimes one little thing on, it's kind of like on a... And I experienced this, and I've seen and heard about other cases. Either the defense or prosecutor says something at trial, the other side objects, and the judge tells the jury to disregard it. To me, that's like, [unclear: "that's chiseled in their mind" / "that's chisels in our impact" / "NS chisel did not interpret"] right now, you know, they really concentrate on it. Yeah. [unclear: "Well, I don't really want this to be known" / "why don't they want this to be known"]. It's already said; you can't take it back. There were things at the trial the jury wanted to see... See, how can I explain this? If you read a book of an incident, you see a movie based on the incident, or you actually see it, there's three different stories, versions, you know. I wasn't there when the Titanic sank. I've read books, I've seen movies; that doesn't make it all true. The jury in the case with Doc wanted to actually hold and see certain bits of evidence. They were denied. So they based their findings, opinions, on other things in fact. You know, but that's really getting off the beaten path.
Det. Jodi Weber: Yeah, I was going to say. But here we are, right?
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah. I don't know about you all, but I ain't going nowhere. Or rather, I ain't going outside the perimeter.
Det. Jodi Weber: Mm-hmm. Yeah. So what else can you tell us about these cases, that we can go back and let these folks know?
Gary Muehlberg: Right now, I've pretty much divulged what I can recall right now. Other things might come to mind in time. [pause] I think I gave up quite a bit, though. I mean, y'all knew I did it from the evidence. Now you're convinced.
Det. Jodi Weber: Well, I mean, we can't deny the physical evidence. We knew that even before we came and talked to you, but...
Gary Muehlberg: And there's always, I mean, I'm not doing it, but there's always a chance, if this was to go to trial, because of technicalities, due process, you know. I'm not, not me, but I'm sure there may be one or two innocent people in prison, just like there's guilty people still on the street. [pause] You know, there's people like Armitrod. He originally, I believe, got the death penalty, through technicalities or something it got overturned, and he got life without. There are other cases in here. [pause] This is really off the beaten path, but years ago there were two brothers, they were twins, and they called them the twins. I worked as a cook with one of them, and they had so much family, brotherly love: the actual perpetrator of the murder would not confess. They both took the fall. They both got life without, okay? One knew nothing about it; the other one did the crime. But they stuck together, because they didn't want to tell on each other. It may not make sense to y'all, but, hmm, people cover things up for various reasons. [pause] An accomplice doesn't necessarily mean they were actually there at the time of the crime. Prior knowledge, an associate. You know, I can go walk the track with somebody, and I have absolutely no drugs or contraband on me. The other person does. We can get busted; I get just as much time. Not saying it is or isn't, but with Doc, the man was found in my house. At the least, I was an accomplice. [pause] We had one member of the jury... Months after I was convicted, Bob Adler talked to some of the jurors, and this one lady, and it is not really an appealable point, but she admitted that she had some doubt, whether it's reasonable or not, in her mind, and was torn in the jury chambers. She would rather send an innocent man to prison than a guilty man on the street. Hmm. Here I sit. I accept it. I can't change, I can't fault her for why she thought, or her decision-making. That's an individual. You can't appeal somebody's thought. Facts, misrepresentation, due process, yeah. Just like me saying about some of the things in that case, and in this: does it make it true, or does it make it false? A lot of things are true. There are things in my case that I'm here on that I'll take to my grave.
Det. Jodi Weber: Is there anything that we've touched on that's not true? I mean, I know you can't remember a lot of stuff.
Gary Muehlberg: Yes. Yeah, it's helping to recall some of the stuff, with you mentioning different things, but...
Det. Jodi Weber: But you're not making anything up, as to what you remember to this point?
Gary Muehlberg: Oh, you mean, all this is real? Don't patronize me. Don't patronize or pacify. The facts are the facts. I mean, just because I do not remember every little infinite detail doesn't mean I'm innocent or guilty. I mean, I remember enough of it that, yeah, I'm good for it. And I'm sure y'all are taking my word on it. [pause] It's kind of obvious I am... I'm talking to y'all. It's like some of these people, when they, they'll know. Rumor, scuttlebutt, something going on. "Why'd you talk to them?" It's like, why the hell you worried about what I do with my time and my life?
Det. Jodi Weber: You know, I'm surprised they would even ask you. You know, if they don't ask you what you're in here for, that they would even...
Gary Muehlberg: They do ask. Some don't ask. Some, through newspapers, TVs, like Armitrod...
Mike Harvey: Jeff Ferguson was on TV. That was my case. I interviewed him.
Gary Muehlberg: Jeff Ferguson? Yeah. Is he here?
Mike Harvey: No, he's executed.
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah. I was in a county jail when he came back for a retrial. If I remember right, he got a reversal on the wrong usage of a word, "or", "are".
Mike Harvey: That's true.
Gary Muehlberg: Jury instruction. There was an error in jury instructions. I'm not sure which way it should have been, but instead of O-R, it was A-R-E.
Mike Harvey: So he got a reversal, and went back.
Det. Jodi Weber: Wow.
Mike Harvey: And I think his second trial, the jury was out 45 minutes. They were out less the second time than they were the first time.
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah.
Mike Harvey: Because I testified at both trials.
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah.
Mike Harvey: Because all the facts were there. Actually, I went to his execution.
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah.
Mike Harvey: I met his daughters, and they were babies. They were babies when this happened. And I met his daughter. Actually, they did a TV program, what you see...
Gary Muehlberg: [unclear: "God of Death Road" / "Got on Death Row"], Potosi?
Mike Harvey: Is that what it was? They did a TV program, and the lady who did that interviewed me at length, and they never used it, because I wouldn't agree to, you know, to a lot of different things. I said, you're not putting words in my mouth. This is what happened. You want the facts? Then put me on TV. If you don't want the facts, leave me out. They left me out.
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah. Like what's going on nowadays with politics.
Det. Jodi Weber: Oh my gosh, yes.
Gary Muehlberg: Oh my.
Det. Jodi Weber: Do you have to follow... I mean, I watch news 24/7. Do you follow that? I mean, are you allowed to do that?
Gary Muehlberg: What's that?
Det. Jodi Weber: Watch TV?
Gary Muehlberg: Oh, yeah. We got our own little TVs, 13-inch flat screen.
Det. Jodi Weber: [unclear: "This guy" / "Does it"] drive you crazy, watching the politics?
Gary Muehlberg: And there's no easy solutions to what's going on in the world right now. Did Nancy Pelosi do the right thing or the wrong thing? That's a personal feeling.
Det. Jodi Weber: Yeah.
Gary Muehlberg: Is Biden a weak president or a strong president? The man ain't got a backbone. And once you slip like that, back in Afghanistan, it all started, for me, the way I see it. An honorable withdrawal? He tucked his tail and ran.
Mike Harvey: I can't argue [unclear: "I can't get it"]. I don't disagree with that.
Gary Muehlberg: And now I hear tell, last night, that AOC is going to run for president. Now, good Lord, this country's shot to hell. Nothing against the feminine side of society, but AOC? How did she even get elected?
Det. Jodi Weber: Yeah. Anyway. Okay.
Gary Muehlberg: Okay.
Det. Jodi Weber: Yeah, yeah. We could be here for days talking about that stuff.
Gary Muehlberg: Yes. Right, right.
Det. Jodi Weber: So I guess we have to do a game plan.
Gary Muehlberg: You have to do what?
Det. Jodi Weber: We have to... We're going to go back with this information, give it to our prosecutors, and we're not sure what's going to happen from there. I mean, you've got the letters. That's a definite. And again, my boss talked to the director of the Department of Corrections and the warden here, and your situation is going to remain exactly the same.
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah. Because this is the maximum, maximum secure... I mean, the other level five camps, but... You know, they know me here.
Det. Jodi Weber: Yeah, I know. You know, and they know you don't cause any problems here. I think that's what it all boils down to, how you are here.
Interviewer: [unclear: "Jelly beans" (captions only)]. Yeah.
Det. Jodi Weber: So are you able to, have you emailed people with your iPad? Is it fairly easy?
Gary Muehlberg: I don't, I don't use my iPad for that. It's like, I check the email every day for things the administration put on it, but as a telephone, it's more convenient, more private, in a cell. But I have no songs, no pictures, no games, no nothing on my tablet. The money I get is to support me, not somebody else, you know. And, uh...
Det. Jodi Weber: So if you wanted to reach out to me, a phone call would be the best, instead of email?
Gary Muehlberg: Yep.
Det. Jodi Weber: Okay.
Gary Muehlberg: When you're [unclear: "phone accepted" / "fully accepted"], a lot of times I won't, I have to, well, I'll take that back. I got somebody calling me now that...
Det. Jodi Weber: So the voicemail will pick up?
Gary Muehlberg: Yes, yes.
Det. Jodi Weber: I don't have to be there to answer it?
Gary Muehlberg: No. You have to be, it has to be live.
Det. Jodi Weber: If he calls you, it has to be...
Gary Muehlberg: Right, you've got to accept the call.
Det. Jodi Weber: Right. So it won't...
Gary Muehlberg: It won't go... My voicemail won't pick up.
Det. Jodi Weber: All it'll pick up is just a phone call from an institution?
Gary Muehlberg: Right. And I don't call them family. Sometimes a phone call won't go through, because third-party calls. And I pay for the phone call down here. I mean, it's a nickel a minute. There's no collect; I don't make collect calls, you know.
Det. Jodi Weber: But you could always write a letter, right, and mail it to me.
Gary Muehlberg: Yep.
Det. Jodi Weber: Okay. And I don't think it would be legal mail, so the mail room would read it.
Gary Muehlberg: No big thing.
Det. Jodi Weber: And, yeah, yeah. Weber. So I obviously work daytime hours.
Gary Muehlberg: Yep.
Det. Jodi Weber: I won't be in town next week, but other than that, I should be there.
Gary Muehlberg: Yep.
Det. Jodi Weber: Okay. You think of anything else?
Gary Muehlberg: [unclear: "It's not a pan" / "It's not a fan"]...
Det. Jodi Weber: But obviously, if you think of something... I mean, because, like I said, they're going to ask us as soon as we get back how much information we have. So...
Gary Muehlberg: Okay. A confession. What, whatever do they... I...
Det. Jodi Weber: We're just looking for, you know, specifics on what you remember, and how their lives were taken, and what happened after their lives were taken.
Gary Muehlberg: I'm sure I'll think of other things, or you'll have more questions, but isn't this enough to close the case, basically?
Det. Jodi Weber: For me, I mean, obviously, with all the physical evidence and what we've talked about here today.
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah. Yeah.
Det. Jodi Weber: Yes.
Gary Muehlberg: Now, is this going to aid... Which one had the son?
Det. Jodi Weber: She, she has a son. Is this going to help him get closure? I hope.
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah. So do I.
Det. Jodi Weber: I hope. Is there anything you'd like me to tell him?
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah, a whole bunch, but I don't know if he'd want to hear it. It's not going to... Putting myself in his shoes for a moment, there's nothing said or done, now or in the future, that'll bring his mother back.
Det. Jodi Weber: Not a thing, right.
Gary Muehlberg: Maybe knowing his mother's murderer's been caught, and is paying the price, hopefully, will help him.
Det. Jodi Weber: What about remorse?
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, as far as he's concerned, I don't know if any of this is really going to give him closure. I mean, no matter what, his mother is deceased. I'm very sorry for what happened.
Det. Jodi Weber: That's what I was saying earlier.
Gary Muehlberg: I, [unclear: "not to share it" (both)], but I probably would. But I would like to step outside the arena for a second, and come to a tight-ass alibi, or excuse, or reason: what prompted me to do this? Where was my mindset at the time? I'd like to get closure on it.
Det. Jodi Weber: Looking back at, you know, what these ladies did for a living, I mean, did you think of them differently because of what they did?
Gary Muehlberg: I don't think so. [pause] Now, if I had... Just like (his former wife's cousin and the cousin's partner, names withheld) lived together. I didn't condemn or condone them.
Det. Jodi Weber: Yes.
Gary Muehlberg: What they did behind closed doors is their own business. I'm not to judge them.
Det. Jodi Weber: Mm-hmm.
Gary Muehlberg: Apparently they supplied a need that I momentarily needed. And so do a lot of other people. A prostitute, a high-class hooker, an escort.
Det. Jodi Weber: Mm-hmm.
Gary Muehlberg: I just hope someday I can figure out why.
Det. Jodi Weber: There'd be a lot of soul-searching.
Gary Muehlberg: There has been, over the last 30-some-odd years.
Det. Jodi Weber: I bet. Did you think about these at all over the last 30 years?
Gary Muehlberg: What do you think?
Det. Jodi Weber: You think? Yes.
Gary Muehlberg: I'm not, I'm not a complete animal. I have a conscience. I have remorse. I have guilt. I wouldn't be sitting here talking to you all if I didn't. I'd be, like, clamming up. What good would it do, go to a trial and have all this brought up and refreshed in a lot of people's minds, to people directly involved? It's over. I'm owning up to it. Her son can have some kind of peace of mind, knowing the perpetrator's not still out there.
Det. Jodi Weber: That's a big thing.
Gary Muehlberg: As far as a why, where the reason behind it, like I said, I'm not sure right now. I can't clarify my outline, what prompted me to do this. On the surface, there's a lot of reasons a person could come up with for this kind of behavior. But why did it start when it did, and why did it end when it did? It didn't go on for a long period of time, apparently. Thinking back, where my mind was mentally and physically at this time period, I can't honestly say I know where I was. Something says something [unclear: "off" / inaudible]. Thank God it didn't last very long. [pause] For what it's worth, I'm sorry.
Det. Jodi Weber: That means a lot.
Gary Muehlberg: I don't... Sorry don't make it right.
Det. Jodi Weber: I didn't say it made it right, but it means something. I mean, I appreciate you saying that. I appreciate you saying that. Those are the words I wanted to hear. And not the total opposite, you know, like you said. You know, just, you're not the monster.
Gary Muehlberg: And I hope this don't sound wrong, but maybe I can do some easier time now. It's over. I don't have to worry about you all coming down.
Det. Jodi Weber: You've been here twice. You'll be back again.
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah, but we, you cleared the air. You know, got a load off my chest. [pause] Gee, now I'll go back and think of what I'm going to have for supper tonight.
Det. Jodi Weber: Chicken patty?
Gary Muehlberg: No. Uh...
Det. Jodi Weber: What is it?
Gary Muehlberg: Thursday night? Nah, I think something like a chef's salad. A lettuce salad.
Det. Jodi Weber: Is it the same thing every week? Like, the same day?
Gary Muehlberg: Okay, they change by the season. We're in the spring mode right now, and it's a repetition menu every six weeks. Lettuce salad, right now we have them twice a week. And we'll go a week or two without it, but it always recycles. Like, you know what day of the week you're having pancakes, or French toast sticks, or chicken patties. But it's not guaranteed, because sometimes they run out of things. Like on the street. I go into the canteen, we order, we have to have our order in by seven o'clock Monday morning. They fill the order, and we pick it up on Tuesday. But just because, and a lot of times, when they're out of something, you're keyed in on the kiosk, it'll tell you "out of stock", for whatever reason. Order something else. But there's fundraising items, like Banquet chicken; it's not a reserved item. First come, first serve. Well, I might order it today, but they may fill your order before mine, and you get the last box.
Det. Jodi Weber: Okay.
Gary Muehlberg: Now, I'd plan a meal out of chicken fajitas...
Interviewer: Yeah, you ain't got no chicken yet.
Gary Muehlberg: And there's also reserved items that, for one reason or the other, you might order, but you don't get. A miscount on inventory, whatever, you know. But you know, you can pretty well plan ahead on a lot of things.
Det. Jodi Weber: Is the food fairly decent, for prison?
Gary Muehlberg: You mean in mainline, the chow hall?
Det. Jodi Weber: Huh?
Gary Muehlberg: Ain't nobody dying from it. It's edible. Yeah. And after a couple of years, your taste buds readjust to stuff. [pause] Not supposed to, but you can buy little packs of mayonnaise and ranch dressing in the canteen, and you're not supposed to take it to the chow hall, but somehow a little pack of mayonnaise finds its way up there, for chicken patties or other things. Add something to it, you know.
Det. Jodi Weber: Uh-huh.
Gary Muehlberg: It's all edible. Not every restaurant's a five-star restaurant, for sure, but you still eat at White Castle, don't you?
Det. Jodi Weber: Yeah. [pause] All right, Gary. Anything else you want to add?
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah, a whole bunch, but I think most of it's already been said.
Det. Jodi Weber: Could you write me a letter?
Gary Muehlberg: I'll try. I'll try. May take a day or two.
Det. Jodi Weber: Oh, take your time. Like I said, I'll be out of town next week, so I'll probably get it...
Gary Muehlberg: Sounds foolish right now, but tell all three victims' families that there's remorse. I can't go back and change it. I can only accept what it is. Because I'm sure, maybe not siblings, or, they all had family somewhere, at some time. Might help them out.
Det. Jodi Weber: So if I have other detectives call me, are you open to visitors, or would you prefer not?
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah, I mean, ain't got nothing to hide anymore. It's on the table.
Det. Jodi Weber: Okay.
Gary Muehlberg: Why would other...
Det. Jodi Weber: Yeah. People are going to be curious.
Gary Muehlberg: I hope not. This is not a made-for-movie story, or a book, or whatever. But I'm sure there's some investigative reporters that would love to talk to me. I'll refer them to you all.
Det. Jodi Weber: That'd be good. Okay. That'd be good. Okay.
Gary Muehlberg: Because I don't have nothing to talk to people about. Not like me. [pause] You can deny a lot, stick with it, but what good does it do? I could lie to you all. I can't lie to myself.
Mike Harvey: That's what we were counting on.
Gary Muehlberg: I might have lied to myself over the past, but fully knowing the truth would come out. And it's not bragging or boasting, anything along those lines. It's definitely one of the saddest days of my life, but also one of the best. I've lived with it this long. Now I don't have to run inside me anymore from it, because the truth is out here. No more pretending.
Det. Jodi Weber: I don't think, is there?
Mike Harvey: Not on my end. No.
Det. Jodi Weber: Okay. All right.
Gary Muehlberg: Now, these are mine?
Det. Jodi Weber: Yep. You're going to have them.
Gary Muehlberg: Because I don't want these people... These people, not the staff.
Det. Jodi Weber: Thank you.
Gary Muehlberg: Thank you.
Det. Jodi Weber: You too. Thanks.
Gary Muehlberg: [unclear: "A lot to hear" / "a lot too here"].