Gary Muehlberg's First Police Interview on the "Package" Murders, Potosi Correctional Center, 2022 (Part 1)
Confronted in prison with a DNA match to the 1990 killing of Robyn Mihan, Gary Muehlberg said he did not remember her, then asked for an attorney. The first of four recorded interviews.
- Subject
- Gary Randall Muehlberg
- Recorded
- June 30, 2022
- Runtime
- 49:39
Content warning: Police questioning about the 1990 murder of a young woman whose body was found between two mattresses, with reference to evidence on her body and to the deaths of other women; no graphic description.
The Interview
On June 30, 2022, Detective Jodi Weber of the O'Fallon, Missouri, Police Department and Mike Harvey, an investigator with the St. Charles County Prosecuting Attorney's Office, visited Gary Muehlberg at Potosi Correctional Center, where he was serving life without parole for a 1993 murder. Weber told him she had "waited a long time" to talk to him. After reading him his rights, she showed him a laboratory report: his DNA, she said, had been found on two pieces of evidence from the 1990 killing of Robyn Mihan, whose body was found between two mattresses. The interview was recorded on a police camera. KSDK News in St. Louis published it in September 2023, without narration, as the first of four parts.
Historical Context
In 1990 and 1991 the bodies of four women were found in the St. Louis area, each inside some kind of container: Robyn Mihan between two mattresses near Silex in Lincoln County, Donna Reitmeyer in a trash can in the city of St. Louis, Brenda Pruitt in a trash can in Maryland Heights, and Sandy Little in a dresser along I-70 in O'Fallon. The cases went unsolved. In 1993 Muehlberg was arrested for the murder of Kenneth "Doc" Atchison, whose body was found in a makeshift coffin in the basement of Muehlberg's home in Bel-Ridge; he was convicted in 1995 and sentenced to life without parole. Decades later, Weber, an O'Fallon cold-case detective, linked his DNA to evidence from the 1990s cases.
Circumstances of the Interview
This was the first of four sessions between June and September 2022. In it the investigators lay out their evidence: a condom wrapper found with Robyn Mihan's body and tape on her body, both carrying his DNA, and photographs of a second victim found in a dresser inside a box. Harvey compares that with the box Muehlberg had begun to build around Atchison's body, and explains that the investigators called the 1990 cases "packaged". They tell him a DNA result is still awaited in a third case. They also say that a journalist is writing a book about the murders, and they ask about his health, his family and the parts of south St. Louis he knew.
What the Interview Covers
Muehlberg says he does not remember Robyn and does not remember doing it. He allows that he picked up prostitutes in bars in the early 1990s and suggests that his DNA could come from a sexual encounter. He raises the death penalty himself and refuses to take the blame for something he says he did not do or does not remember doing. He talks about his brother's death in Vietnam and about closure, while the investigators speak of the victims' families, including a son who was two years old when his mother died. He ends the conversation ("We're done talking"), and when told that a judge has signed a search warrant for a buccal swab, he refuses and says repeatedly that he wants an attorney. The swab is taken under the warrant at the end of the recording.
What Makes the Recording Significant
The video records the opening of a cold-case interrogation: the Miranda warnings, the evidence put to the suspect, his denials and his request for counsel. This first session shows where that process began.
Archival Importance
Recordings of a serial killer's police interviews are rarely made public at this length. Together, the four parts preserve about nine hours of the investigation that closed four murder cases that had been open for more than 30 years, led to four guilty pleas in March 2023, and produced his account of a fifth victim, a woman who has never been identified or found.
Important Caveats
Part 1 contains no confession. Muehlberg's statements in it, including that he did not do it or does not remember, are his claims at the time; in 2023 he pleaded guilty to all four murders. KSDK's series title, "The Package Killer Confession Tapes", applies to the set as a whole. Some of the investigators' remarks (for example, that the women knew each other, that other evidence was still being tested, and that a journalist was waiting to finish a book) are what they told him during questioning and should not be read as established fact. Several passages are hard to hear, and some lines cannot be attributed with certainty to Weber or Harvey.
Det. Jodi Weber: Hi. Mr. Muehlberg?
Gary Muehlberg: Yes.
Det. Jodi Weber: Hi. How are you? I'm [unclear: "Sergeant" (Whisper only)] Jodi Weber. I'm with the O'Fallon Police Department.
Gary Muehlberg: Who?
Det. Jodi Weber: O'Fallon Police Department.
Gary Muehlberg: Okay.
Det. Jodi Weber: I've waited a long time to talk to you, so.
Gary Muehlberg: Really?
Det. Jodi Weber: Yeah, yeah.
Mike Harvey: Actually, I'm Mike Harvey with St. Charles County.
Gary Muehlberg: Okay. Yeah.
Det. Jodi Weber: How you doing today?
Gary Muehlberg: Okay. I just woke up.
Det. Jodi Weber: You did? Yeah. I thought you just had lunch. They were talking about chicken patties.
Gary Muehlberg: I skipped it.
Det. Jodi Weber: You don't like chicken patties?
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah.
Mike Harvey: I guess you don't get many visitors? [00:37 to 00:42: no speech in either machine source.]
Gary Muehlberg: So, get to the chase. What's going on?
Det. Jodi Weber: All right. Well, um, we're investigating some cases from back in the early 90s. So we got to do some paperwork for us to be able to talk about that any further. Okay? So I do have to give you your Miranda rights. Um, you can, just because you're here now, and for us to be able to talk to you and hear what we got to say.
Gary Muehlberg: Okay. Okay.
Det. Jodi Weber: That can, a long time ago.
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah, yeah.
Det. Jodi Weber: You've been here since 93.
Gary Muehlberg: I was arrested in 93. I've been here since. Well, I went to Fulton in, uh, November of 95, I believe.
Det. Jodi Weber: Okay. Normally you go to Fulton and they do a diagnostic test and then they [unclear: "farm you out" / "form you out" / "support me out"] to wherever you're going to be.
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah. From St. Louis County up to a Reception Diagnostic, and I got to sign something.
Det. Jodi Weber: Yeah. I'm just going to read these to you real quick, just so you understand them. Initial. Are you in bad health or anything?
Gary Muehlberg: Uh, yeah, yeah. I've had cancer surgery. I've had my scrotum operated on because of gangrene, the end of, uh, 2020.
Det. Jodi Weber: Oh, really?
Gary Muehlberg: I've got a bad heart. I'm getting old.
Det. Jodi Weber: Yeah. All right, well, in order for us to continue talking about this, and you want to hear what we have to say, or what we're here for, let's go through this real quick.
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah. You have my curiosity.
Det. Jodi Weber: Okay. Uh, "Before we ask any questions, you must understand your rights. You do not have to make a statement or answer any questions. You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can be used against you in a court of law. You have the right to talk to a lawyer for advice before you're asked any questions, and have a lawyer present with you during questioning. If you cannot afford to hire a lawyer and if you so desire, one will be appointed for you before any questioning. If you decide to answer questions and/or make a statement now, you will have the right to stop answering questions and remain silent at any time."
Det. Jodi Weber: That's just saying that you're willing to talk to, or listen to, what we have to say, or just...
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah. [02:55 to 03:00: no speech in either machine source (paperwork).]
Det. Jodi Weber: So I did a little bit of homework on you. Um, so you have been here since 93. You got locked up in 93.
Gary Muehlberg: [unclear: "Even 95" (captions only)].
Det. Jodi Weber: Okay. Are you from the St. Louis County area?
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah, that's where I hail from. Up in Bel-Ridge.
Det. Jodi Weber: Okay. And you lived there from, like, the late 80s, right? In Bel-Ridge?
Gary Muehlberg: Oh, yeah.
Det. Jodi Weber: Um, well, there's some girl, there's a particular girl that I wanted to talk to you about. Um, obviously, you know, probably, you probably watch television, and technology's changing in this world. Um, DNA is a big thing right now, and technology, I mean, with DNA progressing so much throughout the years, um, that's kind of what put us here right now. So, um, I can tell you, um, back in the early 90s, you know, we had 30 to 40 investigators working on these cases and could never figure these out. Never figure this case out. Um, but here we are in 2022 with technology, and we got a DNA hit. Okay?
Gary Muehlberg: Okay.
Det. Jodi Weber: Um, is that ringing a bell at all? You know, Robyn?
Gary Muehlberg: No, I don't remember.
Det. Jodi Weber: You remember Robyn? Did you, you know, happen to pick up, or pick up any prostitutes at all back in those days, or?
Gary Muehlberg: Not, uh, that I recall. No. Yeah. I got divorced.
Det. Jodi Weber: Yeah.
Gary Muehlberg: I remember when that was, early 90s. Okay. Um, I mean, I might have.
Det. Jodi Weber: Okay. Um, so you're, I guess your ex-wife, she, you got divorced, I want to say it was like late 80s, maybe.
Det. Jodi Weber: You have two kids?
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah. Like, I don't [unclear: "know" / "remember"].
Det. Jodi Weber: Okay. You have two kids together?
Gary Muehlberg: Yep. One's deceased.
Det. Jodi Weber: Oh, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. How long ago did it, was your son?
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah.
Det. Jodi Weber: Yeah. That been a while?
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah. A couple of, couple good years.
Det. Jodi Weber: Okay. Was he sick?
Gary Muehlberg: Huh?
Det. Jodi Weber: Was he sick?
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah. Uh, [unclear: "he knew drugs" / "entered the drugs"] and had some mental problems.
Det. Jodi Weber: Okay. Did you have a good relationship with your kids?
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah. Uh, I'm here and they're in St. Louis.
Det. Jodi Weber: Yeah. Best as you can, right?
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah.
Det. Jodi Weber: Right. Okay. Um, so, so early 90s you're living in Bel-Ridge, I guess up until 93 when you got locked up.
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah.
Det. Jodi Weber: Okay. And you did, you said you did kind of maybe pick up a prostitute here and there?
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah.
Det. Jodi Weber: Do you remember their names at all?
Gary Muehlberg: No.
Det. Jodi Weber: Where would you have picked them up from?
Gary Muehlberg: Um, in bars or taverns.
Det. Jodi Weber: Any streetwalkers or anything like that?
Gary Muehlberg: They may have been, but I don't know. I don't remember where they were when I met them. Mainly bars.
Det. Jodi Weber: Okay. But they were working girls, they weren't just patrons of the bar? I mean, you actually, they were prostitutes?
Gary Muehlberg: After I got talking to them, I guess I knew they were, you know.
Det. Jodi Weber: Because it would cost you some money?
Gary Muehlberg: It would cost you some money. Yeah, yeah.
Det. Jodi Weber: Um, how many girls do you think you picked up over those early 90s?
Gary Muehlberg: I have no [unclear: "recollection" / "record"] anymore.
Det. Jodi Weber: I know we're throwing stuff at you from 32 years ago, right?
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah. And my memory is not the best anymore.
Det. Jodi Weber: Yeah. What kind of meds are you on? What kind of medications are you on?
Gary Muehlberg: Uh, blood circulation, blood pressure, heart medicine. I carry nitro.
Det. Jodi Weber: I've seen that.
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah. Uh, digestive problems.
Det. Jodi Weber: Nothing mind-altering or anything like that?
Gary Muehlberg: No. No. No meds like that.
Det. Jodi Weber: No antidepressants or anything like that? So you're pretty clear-headed, you just got a lot of physical problems?
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah. I mean, what I went through in 2020, and the aftermath, what I'm suffering. I mean, I got arthritis in the knees and hands.
Mike Harvey: Right. Well, believe it or not, I think you're two or three years younger than I am.
Gary Muehlberg: How old are you?
Mike Harvey: Seventy-five.
Gary Muehlberg: Oh? Seventy-five? Really?
Mike Harvey: Yeah.
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah, I'm going, I'm 73.
Mike Harvey: Yeah. Yeah. So I'm, knock on wood, man, I'm just going, things are going well. So, um, part of my job is that I do a lot of these, uh, like she was talking about, you know, progress in DNA and stuff like that. I work cold cases. I did a pretty long stint with a local police department, but now I'm hired to do pretty much cold cases. And that's why I'm, uh, I'm working with Jodi here to, you know, work on some of these that have been sitting around for years and years and years. And, uh, again, in reference to the cases that she's going to talk about, I was one of the original investigators on that case back in the 90s, in 91. So, uh, I have a knowledge of these cases, and she's been devoting almost her entire time in the detective bureau doing the same thing, working on cases like this, especially this case here. So she has a lot of information. She will explain it to you, and we'll just lay it out to you.
Det. Jodi Weber: Yeah, yeah. So you're here life without parole, right? You're spending the rest of your time here, however...
Gary Muehlberg: However long.
Det. Jodi Weber: That might be, right? Okay. Um, well, I'm just going to show you, um, this is... Do you need glasses to read, or can you...?
Gary Muehlberg: Nah, I'm okay. I thought I'd go out for medication, that's why I got my pen with me. I'm not properly dressed.
Det. Jodi Weber: Robyn Mihan. She was a young lady that was found... [10:15 to 10:29: no speech in either machine source (Muehlberg looks at the document).]
Gary Muehlberg: I'm being charged with a homicide?
Det. Jodi Weber: No, you're not being charged with anything right now. I'm just showing, that's the lab report. Um, Robyn was killed, okay, and she was found in between two mattresses, and your DNA came back on two different pieces of evidence from her. Okay? So, does that look familiar? And what I want to tell you, Gary, um, those are mattresses.
Gary Muehlberg: Oh.
Det. Jodi Weber: So what I want to tell you, Gary, is there is a journalist writing a book about these cases, okay, and he's waiting for the final chapter. Um, he, he apparently, his mom covered these stories back in the early 90s, okay, and he's doing this as kind of a legacy to her. So he's writing a book, and he's waiting kind of just to do the final chapter of the book. Um, he doesn't know who you are yet. I haven't released the information of who you are. Um, but there's going to be a lot of people studying these cases. They're very interested in these cases. Um, obviously we didn't, you know, we didn't pick your name out of a hat. I mean, your DNA came back to two pieces of evidence on Robyn. So I just kind of want to give closure to these cases and put these cases to rest. I mean, with you being here with life without parole, I don't know that it's going to change much for you. You know what I mean?
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah. I mean, I, I don't know how I'm tied into this, but...
Det. Jodi Weber: A mattress.
Gary Muehlberg: [unclear: "How do you" / "Can you"] dry mouth without my teeth in.
Det. Jodi Weber: [unclear: "Here is" / "Where is Dr. Waters"]...
Gary Muehlberg: I don't know what you're looking for. Nah, I didn't.
Det. Jodi Weber: Does that [unclear: "tattoo" / "Kathy"] look familiar at all?
Mike Harvey: Do you go, have you been up to Lincoln County at all?
Gary Muehlberg: I can't think where Lincoln County is.
Mike Harvey: Do you know where Troy, Troy, Missouri is?
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah.
Mike Harvey: If you go down 70 and pick up 79.
Gary Muehlberg: I've been through it. Or 63, going up to Iowa to visit family.
Mike Harvey: Okay. Here's basically what we're trying to do, is we've got three cases that we're working.
Gary Muehlberg: Mm-hmm.
Mike Harvey: And three of all happened back in that particular time frame. And we got, obviously, we got the lab people sending us a copy. Matter of fact, they just texted me not too long ago. They do have a report. And the DNA, I'm not sure if you understand what DNA is and how it's progressed.
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah. I mean, you can probably get my DNA off that.
Mike Harvey: So it's a very sophisticated system that they use. And is there any reason why your DNA would be on two items from this particular case?
Gary Muehlberg: If that was one of the prostitutes I picked up, I imagine we had a sexual relationship.
Mike Harvey: Okay. Because...
Det. Jodi Weber: You wouldn't happen to remember a name or anything like that?
Gary Muehlberg: No.
Det. Jodi Weber: Do you know...
Mike Harvey: Okay, so you, you've admitted, you said that you picked up prostitutes and you had sex relations, and if your DNA was on particular items, [unclear: "then they desperately" / "deadly decibly"] that you were involved, because these items we found were around, in or around her body when we discovered. So I think you understand where we're going with this.
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah, correct. You're thinking I [unclear: "am committed to crime" / "am"].
Mike Harvey: Yes, sir. Yes, sir. And that's why we want to talk to you. We've got a whole lot of stuff that we want to talk to you about. Again, she mentioned that, uh, you know, I don't think any, and I don't know, but none of these should affect the time you're doing right now. Um, I don't know. I don't know the answer to that, because I have no power to make a decision one way or the other. But we believe that you're involved in this particular case, okay, and that's what we want to talk about.
Gary Muehlberg: I'm being accused of [unclear: "what that's the amount of time" / "time"].
Det. Jodi Weber: Well, that's just the way the report's, that's the title of the, that's the title of the report at this point. Um, but like I said, with these mattresses, there's two pieces of evidence wrapped up inside there that come back to you.
Mike Harvey: So like I, we explained it to you, you know, year and year for whatever time you have left, you're not getting any, I mean, I don't know how they can give you anything more, you know what I'm saying? But we would like to...
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah. The death penalty.
Mike Harvey: Well, I mean, you know, that takes 15, 20, it takes 15, 20 years, typically.
Gary Muehlberg: Not since, of course, [unclear: "we're a long couple of years back" / "the course for a long couple years back"] is, you know. I'm not going to [unclear: "count to" / "capture"] something I didn't do, or don't remember doing.
Mike Harvey: Could you have done it and just don't remember?
Gary Muehlberg: I think this conversation's over, because I don't understand all this.
Det. Jodi Weber: That's why we're just trying to explain it to you. Um, that's why I'm laying it out there for you.
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah. Um, I mean, I might have had, been one of many people that had a sexual relation with somebody one day, if it's a prostitute, because common sense tells me that's how they make a living.
Mike Harvey: Have a couple of jobs.
Det. Jodi Weber: Right. I'll be specific with you. Um, I mean, this, um, the DNA came back on a condom wrapper, okay? The condom wrapper was wrapped up with her. Um, and then she had tape on her body that comes back to your DNA. Okay? So I mean, I'm, I'm being as honest as I can with you.
Gary Muehlberg: I appreciate that, but I don't...
Det. Jodi Weber: Like I said, we, you know, I mean, there's a lot of people want to study these cases and study you and, you know, get in your brain, right now, in one of these cases, you know. And I know we're laying a lot on you. Um, you haven't probably thought about anything going back to the early 90s. It's a long time. Um, after 32 years. Um, but we're being upfront with you when it comes to what we've got. Okay? So, um, we're just trying to find out, you know, exactly how it happened, what happened, because we've already got the physical evidence that we need. So...
Gary Muehlberg: Well, if you got the evidence, why are you talking to me? Charge me or something.
Det. Jodi Weber: Because that's not what I'm looking to. I want to get in here. I want to find out all about it. I want to find out details of what, how, you know, get in your head right now and find out how it happened, what happened. Those are the things I'm, I'm interested in. It's not all about, you know, charging you with something. Um, I wanted, I need, I would like details just so I can learn more about you.
Gary Muehlberg: Um, why?
Det. Jodi Weber: Well, the, this is a case that's gone unsolved for 32 years, right? And not one detective back in the early 90s, 40, 50 detectives working on this, were not able to solve it. None of those guys, with all their experience and all their training and all everything, um, they weren't able to solve these cases. So that's why I want, I want to learn as much as I can about you, because you got past all of them.
Gary Muehlberg: I got what?
Det. Jodi Weber: You got past all of them. You know what I mean? You got, you got one over on all of them. We had no clue. We never even heard of you until, yeah, the report came down from the DNA. And that's basically why we're trying to tie, trying to wrap these up, okay?
Mike Harvey: What's the worst thing that you think could happen to you if you just talk to us about this?
Gary Muehlberg: My worst-case scenario? What would be the worst thing that could happen? You said death row.
Mike Harvey: Yeah. Death penalty.
Gary Muehlberg: If you're already doing life, I don't know anybody would really want to... What are they gonna do, give me double lives or whatever it is?
Mike Harvey: That's not going to happen.
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah. I mean, I'm not, I'm not ever getting out of prison.
Mike Harvey: Right, right. So we're just getting, we'd like to take the opportunity to begin with, me working one of these cases. Excuse me. We'd like to kind of wrap this all up, and for you too. I'm sure that, uh, I don't know if you think about this every, I don't know if you think about it at all, if you think about these possible occasions at all. But this is kind of like a, you know, for your, your benefit to get it over with, and ours, so we can get it over with.
Gary Muehlberg: I don't understand. Okay, get over what? I mean, I'm in here for murdering a man.
Mike Harvey: Right. Right. I've tried, I've read the entire report. Okay. They say you're not a problem here. They said you've never been a problem here. You haven't had any write-ups since 2008. It sounds like you just...
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah. Write-ups I've had were, like, minor ones.
Mike Harvey: Stupid stuff, or something crazy? Passing jelly beans?
Gary Muehlberg: Passing jelly beans?
Mike Harvey: Yeah. You got [unclear: "wrote up" / "rained out"] for passing jelly beans?
Det. Jodi Weber: What did they think they were, pills, or what did they...?
Gary Muehlberg: I mean, I guess you just... They had certain, they got rules and regulations wherever you go.
Mike Harvey: Yeah.
Gary Muehlberg: And in a confined environment like this, some are petty, some aren't. But you still have, like, on the street, I don't know if you've still got the laws against jaywalking. I don't know if anybody, I don't know if anybody's ever got, you know.
Mike Harvey: Yeah, yeah.
Gary Muehlberg: Uh, I think I got a citation once for cutting my grass too early in the morning, because it was noise pollution. The neighbors complained. You got, you got minor, you know, rules and laws. They got them in here.
Mike Harvey: Right. Controlled environment.
Gary Muehlberg: Right.
Mike Harvey: Yeah. So, I mean, if that's what you're worried about, I don't know that they're gonna, I don't know what they'll do, but I'm just saying, I don't know that they'll take their time and go through all the jumping hoops.
Gary Muehlberg: It takes time and a lot of money to proceed with any of these things.
Mike Harvey: When you're 73 years old.
Gary Muehlberg: Yes. Which you all are getting paid for, right? That's your job.
Mike Harvey: Right, right. And that's why we're here. That's why we're here.
Det. Jodi Weber: Yeah. I mean, you have kids, and [unclear: "a daughter" / "Water"], right? I would like to give answers to this young lady's kids, you know, that they've gone 32 years [unclear: "without knowing" / "in that villain"].
Gary Muehlberg: You can tell her I'm not the one. I mean, so, traces of DNA on a prostitute. I'm sure I'm not the only one she ever had sex with.
Det. Jodi Weber: Well, it's just, maybe [unclear: "he's" / "she's"] the first time, I don't know. I don't, I mean, like I said, it was the tape on her body. So I don't know that she would leave the tape on her body, kind of thing. You know what I mean? [22:19 to 22:28: no speech in either machine source.]
Mike Harvey: Well, like I said, I know we're throwing a lot at you.
Det. Jodi Weber: Yeah, we are throwing a lot at you.
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah. I'd say so. I mean, I feel like I'm being accused of a homicide. That's what the questions are. Well, I mean, you found a dead prostitute with traces of my DNA on something.
Mike Harvey: Okay. One of them you might be able to explain away, maybe the condom wrapper, you know. Um, this young lady happened to be between those two mattresses. She was, uh, inside those mattresses.
Gary Muehlberg: Those are two mattresses?
Mike Harvey: Yeah, yeah. Top and bottom. Okay. She was found in between those, and that's where the condom wrapper was that has your DNA on it. And, uh, do you have pictures of the tape?
Det. Jodi Weber: Yeah. This is, um, this is the tape, okay, that's on her, okay, breast. And if you lift that tape up, there's DNA, okay, underside of that tape.
Mike Harvey: So if she's even doing 15 guys a day, none of them would be on that tape, underneath, underneath the underside of that tape. So technically, that's why we're here to see you. Okay? Because, again, maybe she had the condom wrapper, but she's naked. It's not like she had it in a pocket or anything like that. So she's got this condom wrapper in the mattress, and it has your DNA. And then also with the tape, that is very hard to explain, how your DNA got on the underside of that tape on her breast, if in fact it wasn't you that was with her and she wound up in those mattresses.
Det. Jodi Weber: Yeah. So you said earlier that, uh, you didn't, you first said you didn't do it, then you said you don't remember. Is there a chance you did it, you just [unclear: "lost" (captions only)]?
Gary Muehlberg: I don't remember the name, or specifics on where I met her, where I picked her up, how we met.
Det. Jodi Weber: Sure.
Gary Muehlberg: You know, I've got a lot of friends. I had friends in the past. I can't recall where I met them or how I met them. I'm sure you're the same way.
Det. Jodi Weber: Sure.
Gary Muehlberg: All your friends? Everybody you ever talked to, or met, or been with?
Det. Jodi Weber: I understand that. Okay.
Mike Harvey: Um, the case you're in here on, um, we, again, we read it. You tried to get somebody to move him out of the basement, and I think that you, there was a box. You were, you were in construction, right?
Gary Muehlberg: Once. Uh, yeah. Construction worker, carpenter, and all that.
Mike Harvey: Um, when people, when they were supposed to go down, when they found the body, it looked like they were, you were trying to build a box around him in order to get him out of there, to, you know, to dispose of the body. Maybe you weren't going to take him out, but I know you tried to get a hold of several people...
Gary Muehlberg: [unclear: "I don't want to talk about it" / "I know what I'm talking about"]. I still have nightmares on my case.
Mike Harvey: Okay. All right. The reason I bring that up... Do you have a picture of the, uh, your case? We have another case that, uh, it's hard to tell, because they're pretty [unclear: "lousy" / "good"] pictures, but we got another case. This is another prostitute, and this is a box, and there's a dresser that's inside the box. She was inside the dresser in the box, and it looks like it was built around her. Again, that pretty much coincides with the case that, you know, you don't want to talk about. I don't want to go further into it. But that's why all these cases seem very similar, because where we found them, we call them, we use the word they were "packaged". All three of the cases we're talking about. Obviously the mattress is a package. Uh, this was a box, was a dresser inside of a box. And then we have a third one that actually wasn't as sophisticated as these two were, and she was found in a trash can, one of those plastic trash cans. And they're, I mean, they're, the girls are connected. They know each other. They knew each other back in the day. So everything that we're putting together and everything that we're doing... Again, this wasn't as sophisticated as the other ones, but it, definitely she was in there, and I think it was in the plastic in there quite some time, because she had decomposed quite a bit.
Mike Harvey: Um, so what we're doing is, I got DNA guys working, actually on the way up they kept sending us messages and stuff. They're continuing to work on that, and, and, uh, not when, or not if, but when they get a DNA hit, then we're going to tie all three of them together. And we're here to give you an opportunity to talk to us about these and make it as easy on yourself as you can possibly make it, and let us know what you...
Gary Muehlberg: You're going to charge me with what? Three homicides?
Mike Harvey: We don't know if we're going to charge anybody. We're up here to try to get the truth out of you, and have you tell us what you know.
Gary Muehlberg: I don't know anything about those.
Det. Jodi Weber: So again, how do you explain your DNA on the tape?
Gary Muehlberg: I don't know.
Mike Harvey: You don't doubt that we have it, right?
Gary Muehlberg: I mean, I mean, what I'm thinking right now is kind of like private thoughts. But you got it, you got it. I also know of how y'all build cases.
Mike Harvey: Well, then. I've been doing this almost 50 years, and I've never put anybody in prison that didn't deserve to be there. So I don't build cases. You don't have to worry about putting me in prison and keeping me here. You're already here.
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah, right.
Mike Harvey: Yeah. We're just looking for answers.
Det. Jodi Weber: I, I became interested in these cases about 14 years ago. I was fascinated with them. I like cold cases. I like working cold cases. I started looking into it, and I couldn't believe that all these investigators couldn't solve these, you know.
Gary Muehlberg: These all happened when? Back in the...?
Det. Jodi Weber: 1990.
Gary Muehlberg: Around the 90s?
Det. Jodi Weber: Yep. All in 1990. And all three girls knew each other. Um, they all came from the same area.
Gary Muehlberg: And where would that be?
Det. Jodi Weber: Um, Cherokee Street, down in St. Louis.
Mike Harvey: Okay. It used to be called the old, I think it's called [unclear: "Anti-Grow" / "bro"].
Det. Jodi Weber: Well, that, and they used to call it "the stroll", back in, uh, back in the day.
Gary Muehlberg: I think I used to live down on California, off of Cherokee.
Det. Jodi Weber: Right, that's close to, that's close to where this is. Yeah, yeah. So you would be familiar with the area, correct?
Gary Muehlberg: Well, my in-laws lived down on, uh, Compton and Arsenal.
Det. Jodi Weber: Mm-hmm.
Gary Muehlberg: And that's when (former wife, name withheld) and I separated, she moved back with her family.
Det. Jodi Weber: Yeah. So what years did you live down in that, in the Compton area?
Gary Muehlberg: Oh.
Det. Jodi Weber: Or California?
Gary Muehlberg: [unclear: "I can't remember exactly" / "I came running back here"], I was married.
Mike Harvey: That was the old Third District back then, wasn't it? By the Anheuser-Busch?
Gary Muehlberg: Or close to it, yeah, yeah.
Mike Harvey: Yeah, and the Busch was on [unclear: "55th" / "55 in"] and Arsenal?
Gary Muehlberg: Yes. Yeah, I believe it is, yeah.
Mike Harvey: Real close to Soulard?
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah. Yeah.
Mike Harvey: Well, this isn't too far from that. And, you know, you know the area.
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah. I mean, my aunt and uncle and grandparents lived down by Bevo Mill.
Mike Harvey: Sure.
Gary Muehlberg: In fact, I was born down on [unclear: "Gator"].
Mike Harvey: I [unclear: "don't know" / "know"] where it's at.
Gary Muehlberg: Right behind, uh, it used to be a grocery store, and a lot of different things. Christy Park.
Mike Harvey: Okay.
Det. Jodi Weber: Yeah. Had you, any of the prostitutes that you picked up, would you have picked them up off of Cherokee Street? You say you've met a lot of them in the bar.
Gary Muehlberg: I didn't meet a lot of them.
Det. Jodi Weber: Or have you picked any prostitutes up from around the Cherokee Street area?
Gary Muehlberg: Well, I don't remember. Probably.
Det. Jodi Weber: Okay. All right.
Mike Harvey: You see where we're kind of, we're trying to put, this whole thing is like a puzzle. And I'm a very slow puzzle worker, so I have to ask a lot of these. A lot of them may make me sound stupid to you, but I gotta ask them, because I don't know the answer to all these.
Det. Jodi Weber: We, again, what do you think about a guy writing a book? I mean, is that a good thing, a bad thing, or what do you think?
Gary Muehlberg: I never thought, I'm not thinking about it. I mean, I mean, you know, I mean, I, I wouldn't know how to do that. I wouldn't know how to take it.
Det. Jodi Weber: He, uh, he wrote a couple of articles about these cases. Yeah. Um, I have it here. [32:44 to 32:51: no speech in either machine source (documents shown).]
Det. Jodi Weber: This is the guy that's writing the book.
Gary Muehlberg: You write this one too? Did he write for the papers?
Det. Jodi Weber: Yeah, he wrote for, uh, Riverfront Times. You remember Riverfront Times? That's the guy writing the book.
Gary Muehlberg: Ryan Krull?
Det. Jodi Weber: Yeah. So he bugs me every couple of months, because he wants to finish his book.
Gary Muehlberg: I mean, yeah, okay. Yeah. I, like I said, I don't even read that kind of book.
Det. Jodi Weber: Yeah?
Gary Muehlberg: I'm not interested. I don't read that kind of book. Who-done-it, murder [unclear: "mystery" / "history"]. Yeah, I don't read it.
Mike Harvey: Do you, uh, you said you're not good with names, but do you remember Butch Albers, in your case, from St. Louis County? He was talking about how he really liked you.
Gary Muehlberg: Oh?
Mike Harvey: He was talking about how he really liked you.
Gary Muehlberg: What?
Det. Jodi Weber: This is back in the day. I remember Butch came to my office.
Mike Harvey: Right. Yeah, yeah. He was talking about how much he liked you.
Gary Muehlberg: Where is he from?
Mike Harvey: St. Louis County Police Department.
Gary Muehlberg: Ah. I think he might have had something to do with the case I'm here on.
Mike Harvey: Yeah. But he was talking about how much he liked you, and he wanted to come here to talk to you.
Gary Muehlberg: He's still alive?
Mike Harvey: Yeah.
Gary Muehlberg: He's old enough, isn't he?
Mike Harvey: He didn't look over [unclear: "him" / "old"], you know. Yeah, he's living, yeah, down at the lake somewhere, like [unclear: "he was ours" / "everybody else"]. Yeah. So he's retired now.
Gary Muehlberg: So I didn't know.
Mike Harvey: Aren't we all? I mean, I am, basically. I did once. I went back.
Det. Jodi Weber: Obviously, we're not, we're not giving up on this, especially, you know, after 32 years of work. I did, I worked it from scratch, from day one. And, um, we're gonna continue working it.
Mike Harvey: We, again, there's nothing we can say that will convince you that you're not going to get charged with all three, one or two, or whatever. We don't know. That's not our job to do. Our job is to gather, get the truth, and lay the truth out, and see where we go from that. And that's all we wanted from you, was the truth.
Gary Muehlberg: Okay. Um, do you believe that I'm [unclear: "about" / "underneath"]...?
Mike Harvey: Yes, sir. I'm not gonna lie. I don't lie to people. I mean, I do believe that you're involved. Again, we're trying to make, I know this sounds bogus, but we're trying to make it as easy on you as we can, because we don't get any feathers in our caps from this. We just get the satisfaction that the family members...
Det. Jodi Weber: You've, [unclear: "talked to" / "talked in"] one of the woman's son, who was like two years old at the time...
Mike Harvey: And for us to be able to go back and say, "We went and talked to Gary. Here's what he laid out for us." Get some closure. So it's not detrimental to you, but it's very, very important for them to know that, because all these years we get, both, I'm sorry, we get phone calls all these years, "Have you figured out who killed my mom?" and "Have you figured out who killed my aunt?", you know, and stuff like that. And being the dummy I am, it's like, well, we kind of know who didn't, you know, because we've eliminated, eliminated a lot of people. And we just want to be able to tell these people, say, "Yes, we talked to Gary, he was straight up, he really..."
Gary Muehlberg: I understand a bit about closure, obviously.
Det. Jodi Weber: I mean, I know, it's horrible that you lost your son, I know. You know, no matter what, that's a devastating thing.
Gary Muehlberg: Everybody's had devastating, I mean, I lost a brother in Vietnam. I was there.
Mike Harvey: Okay.
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah. Uh, the day he was buried, for me, was closure, because you'll never know exactly how or who killed him.
Mike Harvey: See, that, that statement you just made there pretty much explains why we're here. I was in Vietnam, 68, 69.
Gary Muehlberg: What branch?
Mike Harvey: Marine Corps.
Gary Muehlberg: Semper Fi.
Mike Harvey: You a Marine Corps?
Gary Muehlberg: Semper Fi.
Mike Harvey: Hey, brother.
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah. To do or die.
Mike Harvey: Um, I hit Vietnam 68, 69. I didn't lose any relatives over there. I'm the only, only boy in my family, so I'm the only one that got to go play in the, uh, rice paddies over there. Yeah. Um, so what I was saying is, your closure was when you buried your brother. Was he killed by enemy fire, or do you, you don't know?
Gary Muehlberg: I don't...
Mike Harvey: Yeah, you don't know. So when you say closure, when they throw the dirt on top of them, but you're still in the back of your mind, you're thinking, how the hell did this happen?
Gary Muehlberg: I mean, I, my job was, if you're in Vietnam and you get shot, my job was to call a helicopter, come get you, take you back, either dead or alive, take you back to the rear area. That's what I did. Okay? Yeah. (His brother, name withheld) was missing for three days.
Mike Harvey: Yeah, see? And again, if you knew in your mind that, not that you'd have a picture of it, but if you knew in your mind that he was walking up top of a hill and the enemy shot him and killed him, that's closure. Just throwing him in the ground, putting dirt on him is, I guess that is closure, if you don't know. These people put their people in the ground and threw dirt on top of them. They don't have closure. They don't have closure.
Gary Muehlberg: If you accept the fact that...
Mike Harvey: To them, they don't.
Gary Muehlberg: Some people, I mean...
Mike Harvey: Okay. That's one of those things, I mean, closure means something different to everybody.
Gary Muehlberg: Right.
Mike Harvey: Would you not like to know exactly what happened to, was it (his brother, name withheld)? His name?
Gary Muehlberg: (His brother, name withheld.)
Mike Harvey: (His brother, name withheld)?
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah.
Mike Harvey: Wouldn't you, wouldn't you want to know exactly what happened?
Gary Muehlberg: I mean, I had to write letters back home to these families of people that I put on helicopters. And it's like, he died in war. I mean, I've accepted it. I've moved on.
Mike Harvey: Yeah. Well, that's, that's good for you. That, that way you have a clear, clear head and a clear handle on everything. That's what these people want.
Gary Muehlberg: I can understand that, but, you know.
Det. Jodi Weber: I mean, the one son, I mean, he came in my office, and he's 34 years old now, and he was two years old at the time, and [unclear: "broke down" / "burnt down his ears"].
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah, I can understand that.
Det. Jodi Weber: And lots and lots of tears. Just not knowing.
Gary Muehlberg: [unclear: "I'd break down in tears when I think of family members in the past" (Whisper only)]. If I, yeah... Some things I leave buried. I don't rehash them. Yeah, trust me. The nightmares are still there.
Mike Harvey: Yeah. Were you in the Marine Corps?
Gary Muehlberg: That's what I just said.
Mike Harvey: Yeah, I thought you said...
Gary Muehlberg: [unclear: "Because it didn't reply" / "because Denver's High"]. I mean, y'all are trying to catch me up in something now.
Mike Harvey: No, we're not.
Gary Muehlberg: We're done talking.
Mike Harvey: Oh, we're done talking? Okay.
Det. Jodi Weber: Okay. All right, well, we have to go get them to come get you. Just have a seat. We have to go get them.
Gary Muehlberg: Oh, yeah. [unclear: "We can't just let you go" / "we can just let Chicken"]. I know the way back.
Det. Jodi Weber: I'm sure you do.
Mike Harvey: Did you have anything else?
Det. Jodi Weber: No, I was just gonna get my business card, so he knows who we are. So, Gary, here's my business card.
Gary Muehlberg: Uh, you can keep it. I don't need your business card.
Det. Jodi Weber: Okay.
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah, but you got your mind made up, investigating this and, you know...
Det. Jodi Weber: No. I, I don't want to leave on bad terms, Gary, because, I mean, I was excited...
Gary Muehlberg: No, we're not. You, you all are doing a job, I guess.
Det. Jodi Weber: I know. I, I just, I'm looking to give answers to some people. That's all. I was hoping maybe you could help us out with that.
Gary Muehlberg: That's what you ought to do, [unclear: "Sally" / "this area"]. I'll be here if you want to talk to me some more.
Det. Jodi Weber: Would you have a problem with us coming back and talking to you?
Gary Muehlberg: If I had a problem, would it make a difference?
Det. Jodi Weber: Well, you can refuse to talk to us.
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah. No, I have no problem with it.
Det. Jodi Weber: Okay. So we're going to leave it kind of open, as the fact that if we get more information, we'll come back and talk to you?
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah. This is your choosing. You want to, you know.
Det. Jodi Weber: Okay.
Gary Muehlberg: I can't stop you from coming down.
Det. Jodi Weber: Right.
Mike Harvey: There is one thing. Did you approach the, uh...
Det. Jodi Weber: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. We have, uh, we went to the county courthouse, and, uh, when we have, when, uh, our lab people get a DNA hit, we have to confirm that. So we'll take a buccal, we're going to get a buccal swab from you to send to them. And we went to, uh, the county courthouse and got a search warrant to do that. Okay? You don't have any problem doing that for us, do you?
Gary Muehlberg: Yeah. I mean, you've already done it here. You already got my DNA, so...
Det. Jodi Weber: Yeah, but you see, the lab requires confirmation, and that's why we have to get one within a certain [unclear: "date" / "gate"] of the case.
Gary Muehlberg: No. You might not. I'm not going to give no swab or nothing.
Det. Jodi Weber: Okay. The, the only thing...
Gary Muehlberg: It's on file in the DOC anyway.
Det. Jodi Weber: Well, it works a little different when it's on file through DOC. They won't let us have it for what we need it for.
Gary Muehlberg: I know. Crazy, isn't it?
Det. Jodi Weber: Other than that, it gets entered into CODIS. That's how we got the match. But now the lab requires us to get confirmation.
Gary Muehlberg: So I'm not giving a swab or a blood draw or whatever.
Det. Jodi Weber: Well, we don't do blood draws. This is just like a [unclear: "cure zone" / "yeah"].
Gary Muehlberg: I'm not giving anything.
Det. Jodi Weber: Well, we really don't, because the judge signed it, we really don't have a choice. And we don't want to do it by force, but we can. We don't want to do it that way.
Gary Muehlberg: Force?
Det. Jodi Weber: Yes. The judge signed the search warrant, so we have, so we're obligated to do it. We don't want to cause any issues right here.
Gary Muehlberg: Uh, I think I might want to talk to an attorney.
Det. Jodi Weber: Well, that's fine, okay, but that doesn't supersede the search warrant. We still have...
Gary Muehlberg: Well, this is what you say. I don't know that.
Det. Jodi Weber: Well, that's what the judge says.
Gary Muehlberg: I haven't heard it from the judge, or seen it in writing or anything.
Det. Jodi Weber: It's right here. I'm gonna give you a copy. [44:39 to 45:43: no speech in either machine source, apart from a single "oh" in the captions at 45:26 (Muehlberg reads the search warrant).]
Gary Muehlberg: I still, I think I want an attorney. I mean...
Det. Jodi Weber: We don't want to cause any undue, we don't want to cause any undue problems for you or anything like that.
Gary Muehlberg: Y'all, no. I'm not, I'm not doing this.
Det. Jodi Weber: Okay, Gary. Okay. We have to get one, one way or another. So, what, I don't want to cause any problems for you. I didn't, I didn't expect it to go like this. I expected us to get, you know, to have a cordial conversation.
Gary Muehlberg: So I don't wanna... This is kind of like, with you, well, I can't think of the proper word, uh, choreographed. Y'all know what you're doing, or what you're after.
Det. Jodi Weber: But I, we, we were honest with you. I mean, we didn't have to show you the lab report. We didn't have to show you the pictures. We didn't have to show you any of that. But I felt like, you know, you're a smart guy. I've done my research on you. I've done my homework. I've talked with numerous people that know you, and they said you're a very intelligent guy. They all said you're very intelligent. Um, I talked to [unclear: "Ryan" / "Ron"]...
Gary Muehlberg: I mean, I'm being pacified or patronized now. I'm just saying that I want an attorney.
Det. Jodi Weber: Okay. But in the meantime, we're gonna go ahead and get the swabs, all right? And then we'll send you back on your way.
Gary Muehlberg: I want an attorney. [Whisper only.]
Det. Jodi Weber: Well, you can't, I mean, we just keep working right now, but we're done as far as that goes. I will give you a copy of the search warrant. [Whisper only, apart from the last sentence.]
Gary Muehlberg: I don't want any of that.
Speaker: Did you tell them no? [47:25 to 47:39: no speech in either machine source.]
Det. Jodi Weber: You can get my DNA, like you're saying, off paper and stuff. I mean, I've touched them. It's just harder, that's all it is. It's harder, they would have to cross that whole piece of paper. That's it. You know, and I think it's ridiculous that we have to get confirmation, because we don't get confirmation for somebody's fingerprints. Why do they make us get confirmation for something like this? I think it's silly, but I don't make the rules.
Gary Muehlberg: Oh, well.
Det. Jodi Weber: You know, we didn't want to do it this way.
Correctional Officer: These gentlemen are going to do... You got to do it.
Gary Muehlberg: I know. I [unclear: "you, I don't" / "got to"] listen to you, because you're a correctional officer.
Correctional Officer: I'm in. I got you. So just cooperate with them, whatever it is.
Speaker: Okay. Then you let her do the buccal swab. [Swab taken; little speech.]
Speaker: Got to bring everybody for you, man. We hate to be kicked by that cane.
Gary Muehlberg: [unclear: "Here, ever came, I'm too old" / "You're never king"].
Speaker: [unclear: "I'm going to hold it right in the cane" (Whisper only)].
Speaker: I'm sorry.
Speaker: That's it.
Speaker: [unclear: "Harmless" / "Armless"], right?
Det. Jodi Weber: Did you want a copy of this?
Gary Muehlberg: No.
Det. Jodi Weber: Okay. I guess you keep it for your file or something.
Speaker: Uh, did you not give them a copy already?
Det. Jodi Weber: No. Okay. No, we did. Okay. Do you need this one back?
Speaker: No. Okay. Actually, that's his. That's his. We will, we will put it in his file.
Speaker: All done with them? That's it.
Speaker: All right, man. [unclear: "Go by five" / "go back five"].
Gary Muehlberg: Oh, yeah. All right.
Speaker: Good luck, [unclear: "Aaron" (Whisper only)].
Speaker: Oh, no. [49:36 to 49:39: video ends.] ---