"I Don't Buy It at All": Gacy Prosecutor Terry Sullivan on the Defense Diaries Podcast, 2021

Name: "I Don't Buy It at All": Gacy Prosecutor Terry Sullivan on the Defense Diaries Podcast, 2021
Uploaded: 2021-07-02T00:00:00Z
Duration: 4 min 16 s
Description: On WGN Morning News in July 2021, Gacy prosecutor Terry Sullivan answers a defense attorney's podcast about missing evidence sheets and the photo receipt that linked Gacy to Rob Piest. Gacy is not heard.

On WGN Morning News in July 2021, Gacy prosecutor Terry Sullivan answers a defense attorney's podcast about missing evidence sheets and the photo receipt that linked Gacy to Rob Piest. Gacy is not heard.

Subject: John Wayne Gacy
Recorded: about July 2, 2021
Runtime: 4:16

Content warning: Refers to the murder of 15-year-old Rob Piest and to the Gacy murders in general. No graphic detail.

The Interview

This is not an interview with John Wayne Gacy, who is not heard. It is a live studio segment from WGN Morning News in Chicago, posted by WGN on July 2, 2021. Anchor Larry Potash, having just interviewed the host of the "Defense Diaries" podcast, asks Terry Sullivan, one of the prosecutors who tried Gacy in 1980 and WGN's legal analyst, for his response.

Historical Context

In 2021 Chicago attorney Bob Motta launched "Defense Diaries", a podcast built on hours of pre-trial recordings of Gacy and his lawyers that his father, Gacy defense attorney Robert Motta, had kept. The podcast raised questions about how parts of the evidence had been inventoried, including the photo-processing receipt found in Gacy's house in December 1978. The receipt had been put in the pocket of a parka by Kim Byers, a co-worker of 15-year-old Rob Piest at Nisson Pharmacy in Des Plaines; Piest wore the parka when he left the store on December 11, 1978, and was murdered at Gacy's home that night. Tracing the receipt helped tie Gacy to Piest.

Circumstances

Sullivan helped lead the 1978 investigation and was a key trial prosecutor. Gacy was convicted of 33 murders in March 1980 and executed in 1994. Sullivan here answers the podcast's points more than 40 years later.

What the Recording Covers

Sullivan says he welcomes "any light into the case" and that nobody innocent should be imprisoned or executed, but that he does not "agree with the darned thing" the podcast host says. Asked about a missing evidence sheet for the receipt, he says the evidence went after the trial to a storage warehouse where items were kept in boxes, that missing sheets would not mean the item was never inventoried, and that the defense, Robert Motta and Sam Amirante, would have challenged it at trial had it not been, and did not. He says the case never gave him nightmares. He calls "ludicrous" any suggestion that Kim Byers, then about 16 (in his recollection), invented her account or was coached by Des Plaines police, and adds that she is now a doctor in California. On the dispute over where the receipt was found (the kitchen, or garbage collected outside), he says there could have been several receptacles. The segment closes with Potash noting that Sullivan is the first in-studio guest in a long time.

What Makes the Recording Significant

It sets a trial prosecutor's account directly against the questions raised by the defense's own tapes, released more than four decades after the trial, on the evidence that linked Gacy to his last victim.

Important Caveats

Gacy is not heard. The podcast host's claims and Sullivan's rebuttal are both claims; neither is a finding of fact. The podcast host is heard only for a second at the start and is not named in full in the clip. Sullivan's statement that Byers was 16 is his recollection; contemporary accounts give 17. His statement that she is now a doctor in California is his and was not verified. The officer he names as finding the receipt is unclear in the machine sources and should not be named on the page until checked.

Podcast Host: [clip begins mid-sentence] ...at that. I mean, that's just a fact.

Larry Potash: Well, Bob, but we appreciate you joining us. It's very interesting. The podcast is called Defense Diaries. Terry Sullivan was a prosecutor in the Gacy case and also WGN's legal analyst, and he joins us this morning. Terry, what are your thoughts on what you heard from Bob, from his podcast?

Terry Sullivan: Well, I appreciate what he said. I welcome any light into the case, all the way along. After all, we didn't have DNA at the time. We didn't have a lot of the [unclear: "scientific stuff" / "scientists turned up"], pretty much.

Larry Potash: Yeah.

Terry Sullivan: But, and I don't think you're going to find anybody who knows me who's going to say that there's anybody else who doesn't believe that somebody who's innocent should [not] be in prison, or certainly be put to death. But having said that, I don't agree with the darned thing that he says.

Larry Potash: So if he says he can't find any evidence sheet that lists this photo receipt, how would you... Is that just a clerical error? Are you saying that there could be some other missing evidence sheet, or...?

Terry Sullivan: Sure, there could be missing evidence sheets. First of all, all of the stuff that was evidence, after the trial, went over to a factory, basically a storage factory, I think maybe on Western or something like that. I can't remember. I've been there many times, where they were all just in different boxes, and who knows what could have happened to them. But also, that doesn't mean that it wasn't inventoried. And even if it wasn't inventoried, which I don't believe, even if it wasn't inventoried, his father tried the case along with Sam Amirante. They certainly would have challenged the fact that the thing wasn't inventoried if, in fact, it hadn't been inventoried. And there was no such challenge.

Larry Potash: Let me ask you, Terry, as we've discussed, this is a complicated case that goes in a million directions, and we're talking about it after 40 years. Is there something you want to know, that's bothered you after these four decades about this case, or do you feel like you can... you put this to rest?

Terry Sullivan: I pretty much put it away. It never really stuck with me that much, as a lot of people thought it might. I never had a nightmare. Let's don't start now. And I never second-guessed anything, unless it was brought up here or in [unclear: "court law" / "a"], and certainly I respect [it] if, in fact, it's brought up. But to say that, to try to say that Kim Byers, who at that time was innocent...

Larry Potash: She was the one that provided the photo receipt, right?

Terry Sullivan: Yeah. And she was, I think, 16 at the time, working in a drugstore. To say that she would come up with a cock-and-bull story is ludicrous. She was, [unclear: "as is she" / "as is shared"], and by the way, she's a doctor now in California. And to say that the Des Plaines Police Department at that time would have gone to her and say, "Hey, make up this story to say that Rob had your coat," when in fact the coat was found there? [unclear: "and you don't buy it, I don't buy it at all" / "you know, but I don't buy that at all"] And the other, the last thing, Larry, is in relation to the garbage, where, you know, [unclear: name; "Tennecosa's ex" / "COACH'S ACTIONS"; possibly "Kozenczak"] says he found the receipt. He says he found it in the kitchen. The other officers now are telling Mr. Motta that, in fact, they were told to get garbage from the outside. That doesn't mean there weren't two, three, four different receptacles, and that they didn't get that, package it, and take it into the station for inventory.

Larry Potash: Well, people can listen to Defense Diaries, the podcast, to get all the details of that case. But Terry, I think you're the first guest we've had in studio in quite a long time. So good to see you in person.

Terry Sullivan: Really?

Larry Potash: Yes.

Terry Sullivan: It's good to be in person, yeah. Isn't this where Bozo was?

Larry Potash: Yeah, there should be a prize. [No further speech in either source to the end of the clip at 04:16.] ---