"Wounds Heal, but Scars Remain": Investigator Carol Daly and Survivor Jane Carson-Sandler After DeAngelo's Guilty Pleas, ABC10, 2020

Name: "Wounds Heal, but Scars Remain": Investigator Carol Daly and Survivor Jane Carson-Sandler After DeAngelo's Guilty Pleas, ABC10, 2020
Uploaded: 2020-06-30T00:00:00Z
Duration: 7 min 54 s
Description: Outside the Sacramento plea hearing, the detective who first interviewed the East Area Rapist's victims in the 1970s and one of his earliest survivors talk to ABC10 about the day, the survivors' group and the scars that remain. DeAngelo is not heard.

Outside the Sacramento plea hearing, the detective who first interviewed the East Area Rapist's victims in the 1970s and one of his earliest survivors talk to ABC10 about the day, the survivors' group and the scars that remain. DeAngelo is not heard.

Subject: Joseph James DeAngelo
Recorded: June 29, 2020
Runtime: 7:54

Content warning: Discusses rape and sexual assault in general terms, the survivors' trauma, and an anatomical remark about DeAngelo made by the prosecutor in court. No graphic description of any attack.

The Interview

This is a 7-minute-54-second unedited interview posted by ABC10, the ABC station in Sacramento, on June 30, 2020. It was recorded the day before, after the hearing at which Joseph James DeAngelo pleaded guilty. DeAngelo is not heard. An ABC10 reporter, who is not named, talks with Carol Daly, the Sacramento County Sheriff's Department investigator who worked the East Area Rapist case in the 1970s, and Jane Carson-Sandler, who survived the fifth attack and has spoken publicly under her own name for years. The two women are close friends.

Historical Context

Between 1976 and 1986 a man known as the East Area Rapist, and later as the Original Night Stalker and the Golden State Killer, committed dozens of rapes and at least 13 murders in California. Carol Daly, who applied to the Sacramento County Sheriff's Department in 1968, after seeing a posting for women deputies, was one of the detectives who interviewed the victims of the Sacramento attacks; she later became the county's first woman undersheriff and retired in 2001. Jane Carson-Sandler was attacked in her home in Citrus Heights in 1976. DeAngelo, a former police officer, was identified through genetic genealogy and arrested in April 2018.

Circumstances

On June 29, 2020, because of COVID-19 distancing rules, the Sacramento County Superior Court sat in a ballroom at California State University, Sacramento. Under a plea agreement that spared him the death penalty, DeAngelo pleaded guilty to 13 counts of first-degree murder and 13 counts of kidnapping and admitted dozens of uncharged crimes, including rapes. Daly says it was the first of his hearings she had attended. He was sentenced on August 21, 2020, to consecutive life terms without the possibility of parole.

What the Recording Covers

Daly says she could not sleep the night before and wants credit given to "dozens and dozens and dozens" of investigators, crime scene staff, dispatchers and patrol officers who are "never on camera." She says the hearing was "still all about the survivors," recalls asking victims in the 1970s to describe what had been done to them, and describes the survivors' group formed a few years earlier. Of closure she says: "No. It's always going to be there, but there's satisfaction in knowing who he is." Carson-Sandler, wearing a shirt that says she is a survivor and thriving, says, "I was number five, and my assault was nothing compared to what I heard today," calls the others "survivor thrivers," and calls Daly "my angel sister Carol." Daly contrasts an early television segment presented by Robert Stack, in which a victim disguised her voice and hid her face, with survivors who now "want a name, because there is no shame in what they went through." Carson-Sandler says hiding "would be continuing to give him control," that she had feared he would change his plea, and comments on a remark made in court by prosecutor Amy Holliday. Daly credits the media with a large part in the case. Carson-Sandler closes with a line from her book, "Frozen in Fear": "Wounds heal, but scars remain."

What Makes the Recording Significant

It is an unedited, same-day conversation between the detective who first took many of the victims' statements and one of the earliest survivors, recorded on the day the case ended in guilty pleas, more than 40 years after the attacks began.

Important Caveats

DeAngelo is not heard. The reporter is not named. Daly's remark that rape "was just a misdemeanor" in the mid-1970s is her own characterization and has not been verified; page copy should not repeat it as fact. The survivor called "Phyllis" is named by first name only; no surname is to be added. Carson-Sandler's comment about the prosecutor's remark should appear only as quoted in the transcript, if at all.

Abc10 Reporter: Um, first and foremost, this day, what does it mean for, I guess, we'll start with you, Carol. What does this day mean for you as the original investigator in this?

Carol Daly: Well, I thought a lot about it last night, because I couldn't sleep. And I, you just think about everything that has happened. And I thought there are so many people who have been the face of this investigation, but there are dozens and dozens and dozens of investigators, CSI investigators, dispatchers, patrol officers, that really played an important part in this all over the years. And they are never on camera. They never get spoken to, but they deserve a lot of credit, because all of them worked very hard to get to this point, to where the East Area Rapist could be identified.

Carol Daly: Getting into the hearing today, I didn't know what to expect. But listening to all of the crimes in detail over again, um, it's still all about the survivors, the victim survivors, and how brave they were. When you think back, in the mid-70s, rape was just a misdemeanor. And how brave they were to come forward and detail out the horrific things that you heard happen. And if you can imagine being a victim, and me walking in and saying, "Okay, tell me what this man did to you." And all of the intimate details, you know, that they went into.

Carol Daly: Um, and what is so really great is, what, three or four years ago, um, the survivors started getting together and formed at first just a very small group, and then it grew. Uh, a bunch of them met Saturday night. And so the support that they have had from each other, I saw such a difference in the way they handled the hearing today, as opposed to the first hearing, when they were together at DeAngelo's first hearing. I wasn't at the hearing. This is the first hearing I've come to. I haven't wanted to be at any of them. But I saw such a support and such strength. And, um, will they ever find closure? No. It's always going to be there, but there's satisfaction in knowing who he is, and the fact that he'll be in prison for the rest of his life, and that there will be no more victims of his.

Abc10 Reporter: Jane, I know from you, your shirt says it: you're not a victim, you're a survivor, and you're thriving. Is that what it says?

Jane Carson-Sandler: Yes, it does. It definitely does.

Abc10 Reporter: I know you stood up. I know you were really the pinnacle for survivors, the group of you all. I really do think so. Before, I was like, "Have you talked to Jane? Have you talked to [unclear: "you know" / "Noah"]?" And I know your story, and you just are so strong, and standing up today, facing him again, how are you doing?

Jane Carson-Sandler: Well, it was an extremely emotional day, and I, um, listening to the crimes described was just heartbreaking. I mean, I was number five, and my assault was nothing compared to what I heard today. Nothing. So I am, you know, grateful in that respect, but his crimes were so horrendous, and my heart goes out to all those victims and all those families. And it's just, it was overwhelming, emotionally overwhelming today. But hey, we have a strong group of survivor thrivers, and I love them all. And I've met so many incredible people, like my angel sister Carol here, through this whole journey. So for that reason, I'm not even sorry that I was assaulted.

Carol Daly: What's interesting for me is having met so many of them back in the mid-70s, when they were the victims, and then no contact. I mean, some of them we had contact, but then reconnecting, and looking at their lives, of what they have accomplished in spite of what happened to them, and then, importantly, how they have reached out to others, not just within the group, but to other people all around them, opening up themselves. Um, I remember back, um, Robert Stack did one of the first TV presentations, and the victim went on, disguised her voice, and hid her face.

Jane Carson-Sandler: Mhm.

Carol Daly: Look at, look at these women coming out. They don't want to be Jane Does. They are going to stand up and be recognized as the victim that they were. They want a name, because there is no shame in what they went through. Uh, they have, um, they're just so strong, and seeing how their lives have changed, and where they are, and what they have accomplished, and then becoming friends with them, and having them accept me into their group has really, really been amazing.

Jane Carson-Sandler: One thing, too, that you were just talking about, as far as, you know, not covering our face and being out there: that would be continuing to give him control. And we are never going to give him control again. I mean, today was it. I wasn't sure at any time if he was going to pretend to have a heart attack, or he was going to say, uh, um, "I've changed my mind. I'm not pleading guilty." We're all kind of sitting on pins and needles wondering about that, but hey, it went, it went forward. And everyone knows he has a tiny penis, which is good. Yeah. That's all I have to say.

Abc10 Reporter: I was just about to ask you about that.

Jane Carson-Sandler: I know. I know. I'm sorry.

Abc10 Reporter: You're like, "I'm sick of being asked about it."

Jane Carson-Sandler: No. No, I'm not sick of being asked about it. That's okay. But thank you, Amy Holliday. She said she did it just for me. I said, "Good." Yeah. Good.

Carol Daly: Well, everybody heard it. I'm not sure whether he was listening, but maybe so.

Abc10 Reporter: It's hard to say. But, you know, I know that is obviously a part of the case, as we all read in Michelle's book, and all these podcasts and stuff. But I think the standing up in solidarity, also for Phyllis, who can't be...

Jane Carson-Sandler: Oh, yes.

Abc10 Reporter: There's just so many moments in there that, you were so right. He had no control today.

Jane Carson-Sandler: No, thank goodness. Thank goodness.

Abc10 Reporter: And the act he's putting on.

Jane Carson-Sandler: Oh. Oh, yes. Yeah.

Abc10 Reporter: You know more than me. And I just think my heart goes out to you both.

Jane Carson-Sandler: Well, we thank you. We truly thank you.

Abc10 Reporter: Well, God bless you, and thank you so much for speaking with us.

Carol Daly: And I would really like to say the media has played a huge part in this. From the very beginning, I mean, there were, there were little stories along the way, but then when the hunt really intensified, in about, what, '17, or '16, '17 in there, the media was there, and it was, I mean, all over, all over the United States, all over the world, people coming and wanting to know about him. And so I really feel the media played a [unclear: "bigger" / "big"] part in it, too.

Abc10 Reporter: Yes. Yeah. Everybody working together, and that it was community.

Jane Carson-Sandler: It was, and that's what we need. So we're not going to have any more, we're not going to have him commit any more crimes. And, uh, so, it be, you know, something: wounds heal, but scars remain. I wrote that in my book, "Frozen in Fear," and it's so true. I mean, the scars will always be with us. The next time I see a ski mask, it's going to trigger an event. The next time someone says, "Shut up," or, it's going to trigger an event. You know, you still kind of look over your shoulder, and you're not so trusting of folks like you used to be. So, but I'm not going to be looking for him anymore, that's for sure.

Abc10 Reporter: Thank you. [No further speech in either source from 07:44 to the end of the video at 07:54.] ---