"I Know I Am": Lorenzo Gilyard Talks to Piers Morgan, 2018

Name: "I Know I Am": Lorenzo Gilyard Talks to Piers Morgan, 2018
Uploaded: 2024-03-30
Duration: 46 min 46 s
Description: In what the programme called his first public interview, Lorenzo Gilyard told Piers Morgan he had never met the women he was convicted of strangling, and disputed the DNA evidence that convicted him.

In what the programme called his first public interview, Lorenzo Gilyard told Piers Morgan he had never met the women he was convicted of strangling, and disputed the DNA evidence that convicted him.

Subject: Lorenzo Gilyard
Recorded: about March 1, 2018
Runtime: 46:46

Content warning: The programme concerns the strangling of 13 women and girls in Kansas City between 1977 and 1993, one of them aged 15; it discusses rape, the sexual posing of bodies, semen evidence, and Gilyard's earlier record of rape allegations and domestic violence.

The Interview

In a Missouri prison, Lorenzo Gilyard sat down with the British broadcaster Piers Morgan for the second episode of "Serial Killer with Piers Morgan", first shown on ITV on March 1, 2018. The programme and press coverage at the time said he had never spoken publicly before. Gilyard insisted throughout that he was innocent: asked whether he believed he was an innocent man, he replied, "No, I don't believe it. I know I am." He objected to being called a serial killer, threatened more than once to end the interview, and walked out at the end after Morgan asked him what his defence had been at trial.

Historical Context

Between 1977 and 1993, at least 13 women and girls were strangled in Kansas City, Missouri, many of them in the area around Troost Avenue. The youngest, Gwendolyn Kizine, was 15. The cases went unsolved for years. Gilyard, a supervisor at a waste-collection company, had been questioned over the November 1987 death of Sheila Ingold, and a blood sample was taken from him then, but he was not charged. After the Kansas City Police Department obtained federal funding to retest old evidence, DNA from that sample was linked to the killings, and Gilyard was arrested on April 16, 2004. He was eventually charged with 13 murders. Under an agreement that removed the death penalty, he was tried by a judge without a jury on seven counts in March 2007, convicted of six (Catherine Barry, Naomi Kelly, Ann Barnes, Kellie Ford, Sheila Ingold and Carmeline Hibbs) and acquitted of one (Angela Mayhew). He was sentenced to life in prison without parole.

Circumstances of the Interview

The episode opens with an extract of the Kansas City police's videotaped statement of Gilyard, in which a detective reads out the list of homicides and shows him photographs of the victims; Gilyard answers "Not to my knowledge" again and again. Morgan's prison interview is intercut with his own narration, with courtroom footage of the 2007 verdict, and with interviews with detectives and a crime laboratory analyst, the daughter of Catherine Barry, a woman who worked the same streets as the victims at the time, former co-workers and a former neighbour. Morgan also shows Gilyard photographs of several of the women.

What the Interview Covers

Gilyard describes life in prison, his marriage, and the cars, watches and credit cards he owned before his arrest. He describes the day he was arrested and says he was shown photographs of five or six women, not 13, and recognised none of them. He denies telling his lawyer that he had had sex with any of the women. Asked about prostitution, he says a man pays a woman for sex "all the time" when he buys her dinner, which leads to an argument with Morgan. Morgan puts his earlier record to him: rape allegations from 1969 onward, a guilty plea to molesting a girl, and assaults on his wife. Gilyard says one wife lied, but admits hitting her. Confronted with the DNA evidence, he says the police framed him, that his 1987 blood sample was destroyed in 1998, and that no new sample was taken in 2004. A crime laboratory analyst tells Morgan that a new sample was taken in 2004 and matched the old one. Asked what he would say to the victims' families, he says, "I didn't do it, but I'm sorry."

What Makes the Recording Significant

This is Gilyard's own account of the case, given more than ten years after his conviction. The programme said he had never spoken publicly before, and no other media interview with him was found. It sets his denials against the DNA evidence point by point, and records his reactions when they are challenged. Short extracts of his 2004 police statement show the same denials at the time of his arrest.

Archival Importance

Alongside the interview, the programme preserves the recollections of the detectives and laboratory staff who connected the cold cases through DNA, of a victim's daughter, and of a woman who worked the streets of Kansas City while the killings were going on. It also includes archive footage of the 2007 verdict.

Important Caveats

Gilyard's claims of innocence, his claim that he was framed, and his claims about the DNA samples are his own; a judge convicted him of six murders, and the crime laboratory analyst in the programme contradicts his account of the samples. The programme's description of him as "one of America's most notorious serial killers" and its statement that 12 of the 13 women were prostitutes are the programme's own. Coverage at the time reported that Morgan criticised Gilyard for implying that all women are prostitutes. The episode opens with, and later returns to, extracts of the Kansas City Police Department's 2004 videotaped statement. That is government material, but here it appears inside a broadcaster-owned programme, and the transcript is held as a whole. The prison is named only by the uploader and the press; one online source says Gilyard was moved to Crossroads Correctional Center only in July 2019, which conflicts with the 2018 reports. The interview date is not documented. The uploader's title ("Interview with a Serial Killer") and its description ("Crossroads Correctional Facility", "seventeen years") are the uploader's own.

Kcpd Detective: This is the videotaped statement of Lorenzo J. Gilyard, B/M, 5-24 of 50, regarding the following homicides. Number one, Stacie Swofford. Next is the homicide of Gwendolyn Kizine. Next is Margaret Miller. Next is Catherine Barry. Next is Naomi Kelly. Next is Deborah Blevins. Next is Ann Barnes. Next is Kellie Ford. Next is Angela Mayhew. Next is Sheila Ingold.

Piers Morgan: Hey, Lorenzo. [unclear: "Here's moving" (both texts)]. Good to see you. Come over here, sir. How are you doing today?

Lorenzo Gilyard: This took me all by surprise.

Piers Morgan: Oh, it did?

Lorenzo Gilyard: Yeah.

Piers Morgan: What did you think was going to happen?

Lorenzo Gilyard: I don't know.

Piers Morgan: No, no, we're just having, it's basically just an interview. Um, and here's what I would say to you is, this is your chance just to have your say.

Lorenzo Gilyard: Okay.

Piers Morgan: Okay, no one's heard from you for a long time.

Lorenzo Gilyard: Okay.

Piers Morgan: You good?

Lorenzo Gilyard: Yeah, I'm good, man.

Piers Morgan: How long have you been in there?

Lorenzo Gilyard: In here?

Piers Morgan: In prison?

Lorenzo Gilyard: Yeah.

Piers Morgan: 11 years?

Lorenzo Gilyard: 4,289 days.

Piers Morgan: Wow, you remember them all? I might, that might be my first question for you.

Piers Morgan: This man is one of America's most notorious serial killers, known as the Kansas City Strangler. Lorenzo Gilyard was charged with murdering 13 women. He's serving six life sentences. He says he's an innocent man. He has never spoken publicly before. What will Gilyard say to the families of the victims who've been denied answers for decades?

Dawn: She would never hurt anybody, and for somebody to do what they did to her.

Piers Morgan: If you had the chance to sit opposite him, what would you say to him?

Dawn: We're not stupid. We know what you did. You're the only person walking the face of this earth that did that. If he had a soul, he would at least look me in the eye and tell me he was sorry.

Detective: I worked lots of homicide cases, but I mean, as far as the amount of victims that he had, the length of time that this went on, no, I, I can't think of anybody more despicable than Gilyard.

Contributor: What Lorenzo did was just stone evil stuff.

Piers Morgan: Lorenzo, what the hell were you thinking? What drove you to do this? Where'd this come from? How'd you do that? How'd you live those two lives? ### Catherine Barry

Piers Morgan: A few hours before this police interview, Lorenzo Gilyard was having supper in a diner. He hadn't killed anyone in over 10 years and thought he'd got away with murder. Catherine Barry was one of his victims.

Kcpd Detective: Next is a photograph of Catherine Barry, discovered 3-14 of 86 at 301 Central. Those are your initials on the bottom?

Lorenzo Gilyard: Yes.

Kcpd Detective: Do you know Catherine Barry?

Lorenzo Gilyard: Not to my knowledge, no.

Kcpd Detective: Have you ever seen her?

Lorenzo Gilyard: Not that I, not in my [unclear: "knowledge"]. I would have remembered, though.

Kcpd Detective: Have you ever had physical contact with her?

Lorenzo Gilyard: Not in my knowledge.

Piers Morgan: In March 1986, the naked body of Catherine Barry, a 34-year-old mother of three, had been found half hidden under a sheet of wood. There was a black stocking knotted tight around her neck.

Piers Morgan: This is where Catherine Barry's body was found. What was unusual to you about this scene?

Detective: The unusual part of it is she's partially covered. I mean, she's partially covered with plywood and leaves. The thing is, is that she's not out in the open like some of the others were.

Piers Morgan: And some of the other bodies were deliberately left in a, a purposeful pose.

Detective: Yeah, most of them were left where they would be found, and most of it, I mean, to me or to probably anybody else that would walk up and find that, it'd be shocking.

Piers Morgan: 12 of the 13 that he's believed to have killed were prostitutes who may well have had sex with him voluntarily before he killed them. But certainly in Catherine Barry's case, she was not a prostitute. So what do you think he did to Catherine Barry?

Detective: You could assume that, that she didn't have sex willingly with him.

Piers Morgan: She was raped and then murdered?

Detective: Yes, that'd be my assumption.

Piers Morgan: What kind of monster would do that? ### Life before arrest

Piers Morgan: How do you pronounce your surname?

Lorenzo Gilyard: Gilyard.

Piers Morgan: Gilyard?

Lorenzo Gilyard: Yeah. Gilyard, yeah.

Piers Morgan: Lorenzo Gilyard was earning a good salary, working as a supervisor at a waste management company. He was married and living a quiet life. No one suspected he was capable of killing anyone.

Piers Morgan: Let me just ask you first of all, what has life been like for you inside prison?

Lorenzo Gilyard: Uh, it's, it's different, you know. I'm used to being able to travel, have, you know, do whatever I wanted to, and in here somebody else controls it, you know.

Piers Morgan: In the 15 years or so leading up to your arrest, your life seemed to be pretty perfect. You were very happily married to Jackie. You were in a job that you loved, and you were successful, you'd become a supervisor. You had very nice cars that you took great pride in. You went on very nice holidays. Life seemed pretty good, Lorenzo, in that period for you.

Lorenzo Gilyard: Yes, it was. Yes, it was, [unclear: "girl" (captions) / not in small.en]. I wish you hadn't brought up her.

Piers Morgan: Jackie?

Lorenzo Gilyard: Yeah.

Piers Morgan: How do you feel about her now?

Lorenzo Gilyard: I, nothing, just, I just miss, I, nothing. I, I don't, I'm not angry with her. She hadn't done anything. She was nothing but a great wife.

Piers Morgan: Because you had a good marriage, right?

Lorenzo Gilyard: Yeah, to me it was. I assume to her it was also.

Piers Morgan: Here you were, a man who had found true love with a woman that he really adored.

Piers Morgan: You had this very rare Mercedes worth over $100,000. You bought your wife a Mercedes.

Lorenzo Gilyard: Yeah, but see, we had five of them. I kept, we traded up. Not only did I have a nice car, I had, I had two or three platinum MasterCards, two or three Visas, platinum Visas, I had a platinum Discover, I had a gold Neiman Marcus.

Piers Morgan: You had a Rolex watch, right?

Lorenzo Gilyard: Yeah, I traded in my, I had a Piaget at first. She bought me a Piaget at first, and I traded it in and got a Rolex.

Piers Morgan: Because one of the inexplicable things about all this is why somebody who was having such a wonderful life, apparently, would want to commit offenses like this.

Lorenzo Gilyard: I, I [unclear: "think" / "imine" (captions)], I didn't, you know.

Piers Morgan: Do, do you think you're a violent person?

Lorenzo Gilyard: I get angry just like everybody else, you know, uh, about stuff that [unclear: "I'll let her find not true about" (small.en) / "out that I found out true about" (captions)].

Piers Morgan: What, what really makes you angry?

Lorenzo Gilyard: Lying. ### Troost Avenue

Piers Morgan: So, Carl, we're now turning into Troost Avenue, and this, at the time of these killings, was where many local prostitutes would work. Is that right?

Detective: Right, that's true. They would walk back and forth down Troost Avenue.

Detective: Gilyard was, without a doubt, very cunning. He was very cunning. You know, he's the kind of guy that you would not expect, like a lot of serial killers. He was very, uh, meticulous in, uh, what he did. Uh, he was careful. He didn't, he, you know, he didn't have a lot of friends. He didn't associate with a lot of people, so, you know, nobody really knew much about him to suspect him of anything.

Piers Morgan: Lorenzo Gilyard was living a double life. At work, he was popular and respected.

Former Co-Workers: Lorenzo was, he was a good guy. He was always eager to help, or happy to help, and he never complained and just, just did his job and did it with a smile. Lorenzo was the kind of guy you wanted out in the neighborhoods, you wanted interacting with customers. I liked working with him. You just took him as you found him. Good stand-up guy.

Piers Morgan: Gilyard had made it out of a tough neighborhood and was living here in a comfortable suburb of Kansas City.

Former Neighbour: This was the house that we lived in at the time, and that was the house that Lorenzo Gilyard and his wife lived in. He's someone I, I knew from day one I, I would never trust. One of the first days that we had moved in, we were bringing a TV home, and to get the TV in, I was going to back the, the truck into the driveway. He said, "I want you to come inside and look at something. I want to show you something." He came around from the corner, from a bedroom, evidently, and had .38 pistols in each hand. And he told me, "This, you see these? This, this is mine, this is my wife's. And if anybody comes in my yard, I'll shoot him."

Piers Morgan: That's not normal behavior.

Former Neighbour: That's not normal. Normal behavior, it wasn't.

Piers Morgan: Three years later, he was arrested, and they found out who their neighbor really was.

Archive News Report: Gilyard was given six life sentences without the possibility of parole. The 53-year-old sanitation worker will die in prison. ### "Serial killer"

Piers Morgan: How do you feel, Lorenzo, about the fact that you are sitting here as a convicted man, as one of America's worst serial killers? How does that make you feel?

Lorenzo Gilyard: I hate it. I truly hate it. And I wish you wouldn't use that term again while we're in a conversation.

Piers Morgan: The phrase "serial killer"?

Lorenzo Gilyard: Yeah, and, and, and "America's worst".

Piers Morgan: Right.

Lorenzo Gilyard: 'Cause then I'll get up, I will leave.

Piers Morgan: Right.

Lorenzo Gilyard: Because I don't, I hate that.

Piers Morgan: Why do you take exception to that?

Lorenzo Gilyard: Because that's, it's just, that's wrong.

Piers Morgan: [unclear: "No, that's" (small.en) / "That's not" (captions)] what does it mean to you, that kind of phrase? Why, why do you take such exception to it?

Lorenzo Gilyard: That's horrible. That's, that's the best word I, I can term.

Piers Morgan: You think serial killers are horrible people, and you don't want to be associated...

Lorenzo Gilyard: No, uh-uh.

Piers Morgan: ...with that term?

Lorenzo Gilyard: Yes. I don't want to be.

Piers Morgan: You've been given a, a tag which you hate, and you don't want me to repeat it because you hate it so much. But it's a tag that, you know, is now associated with your name. If you put your name into the internet, up comes "Lorenzo Gilyard" and "serial killer". You know that.

Lorenzo Gilyard: It's not me. I'm not coming up with it myself.

Piers Morgan: Right. Um, and yet you find that tag really offensive because you believe you're an innocent man.

Lorenzo Gilyard: No, I don't believe it. I know I am.

Piers Morgan: Okay. ### Dawn

Piers Morgan: When Catherine Barry, the mother of three, got into Lorenzo Gilyard's car, she was mentally unwell and vulnerable. Leaving her family at home, she would walk the streets of Kansas City trying to educate people about God. Her daughter Dawn was 16 at the time of the murder.

Piers Morgan: Dawn, you discover that this was a serial killer who killed your mother. Did that make it worse for you, to know that she was just part of this monster's indiscriminate spree?

Dawn: Yeah. Made it really hard to swallow, to think he'd gotten away with it and had done, done it that many times. Um, yeah, it made me angry. Made me really angry.

Piers Morgan: She would have been a very easy target for him.

Dawn: How you could do that to such a kind and sweet soul, I'll never understand. A person with a heart couldn't do what he did.

Piers Morgan: Gilyard has denied even meeting Dawn's mother, let alone strangling her to death. How will he react when I confront him with the faces of the women who were killed? ### The trial and the photographs

Prosecutor: She too was found shoeless, like all the victims, and placed in a sexually suggestive pose. Her body contained the semen of the defendant and no one else.

Archive News Report: The crimes started back in 1977 and spanned three decades: women strangled between 1977 and 1993.

Judge: Lorenzo Gilyard is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt of murder in the first degree for the deaths of Catherine Barry, [unclear: "the murders of Catherine Barry" (repeated in both texts)], Naomi Kelly, Ann Barnes, Kellie Ford, Sheila Ingold and Carmeline Hibbs.

Kcpd Detective: The first photograph I'm showing you is Sheila Ingold. Do you know Ms. Ingold?

Lorenzo Gilyard: Not to my knowledge, no, I don't.

Kcpd Detective: This is a photograph of Stacie Swofford.

Lorenzo Gilyard: I didn't know her.

Kcpd Detective: Have you ever had physical contact with her?

Lorenzo Gilyard: Not to my knowledge, no.

Kcpd Detective: Kellie Ford. Have you ever seen Ms. Ford?

Lorenzo Gilyard: Not to my knowledge.

Kcpd Detective: A photograph of Connie Luther.

Lorenzo Gilyard: Not to my knowledge. No, I don't know her neither.

Kcpd Detective: You don't know her?

Lorenzo Gilyard: No.

Kcpd Detective: Have you ever had physical contact with her?

Lorenzo Gilyard: Not to my knowledge.

Kcpd Detective: Carmeline Hibbs. Do you know Ms. Hibbs?

Lorenzo Gilyard: Not to my knowledge, no. ### The arrest

Piers Morgan: Let me take you to the moment when you were arrested. You remember that moment?

Lorenzo Gilyard: Oh, I remember it like it was yesterday.

Piers Morgan: Tell me, tell me what happened in your own words.

Lorenzo Gilyard: These two black guys came in and asked, you know, was my name [unclear: "L" (captions) / not in small.en], I said, yeah. Said, "Well, uh, we'd like to talk to you downtown." I said, "Who are you?" And he told me they was detectives.

Piers Morgan: Did they tell you what they wanted to talk to you about?

Lorenzo Gilyard: No, he just said he wanted to talk to me.

Piers Morgan: Did you have any idea what it might be about?

Lorenzo Gilyard: I, I didn't know what they was talking about, but, you know.

Piers Morgan: You were shocked.

Lorenzo Gilyard: Yeah, I was shocked. So when I get downtown, they got to show, they asked me about some, show me some, they said, uh, "Do you know these people here?" Show me one picture at a time. I said, "No, I, not to my knowledge, I don't."

Piers Morgan: They showed you photographs of 13 women.

Lorenzo Gilyard: No, it wasn't, no, 13. It was like five or six.

Piers Morgan: Right. And they asked if you'd ever met them.

Lorenzo Gilyard: Yeah, and I said, "No, not to my knowledge," you know.

Piers Morgan: Then, I think they asked you, I think I'm right in saying, they asked you two questions about each woman. They said, "Have you ever met this person?" and "Have you ever had sex with them?"

Lorenzo Gilyard: Yeah.

Piers Morgan: And you said, "No, no, no," to all of them.

Lorenzo Gilyard: No, I said, no, "Not to my knowledge," yeah.

Piers Morgan: Right, yeah. Not to your knowledge.

Lorenzo Gilyard: Yeah, yeah.

Piers Morgan: And none of these women looked familiar to you?

Lorenzo Gilyard: No, these was little bitty black and white pictures, so, you know, I couldn't, I...

Piers Morgan: And did they then tell you why they wanted to talk to you?

Lorenzo Gilyard: No, uh-uh. So when we got to talking, then I said, "Man, what, what do we, what, what are you, what are we talking about?"

Piers Morgan: I just want to, um, look at some pictures here. These are some of the people they showed you the pictures [of], same thing. These are just a few of the, the images, uh, Lorenzo.

Lorenzo Gilyard: Yeah, see, they weren't like that, though. See, this, this picture here is Sheila Ingold. Now, that's the only person that they actually...

Piers Morgan: You did know her?

Lorenzo Gilyard: No, I didn't know her, but...

Piers Morgan: But she was a friend of the woman you were seeing at the time.

Lorenzo Gilyard: Right, right.

Piers Morgan: You've never met her?

Lorenzo Gilyard: Never met her, never seen her.

Piers Morgan: Do you recognise her now?

Lorenzo Gilyard: No, uh-uh. Never seen her before in my life.

Piers Morgan: This, this was Catherine Barry. This was Catherine Barry. Um, have you ever seen her?

Lorenzo Gilyard: I've never seen her.

Piers Morgan: Doesn't ring any bells at all?

Lorenzo Gilyard: No, she never rings a, never rang a bell.

Piers Morgan: This was Gwendolyn Kizine. She was just 15. It's obviously not a good image of her, but she was very, she was the youngest of these victims, 15-year-old girl.

Lorenzo Gilyard: I've never seen her, never knew her.

Piers Morgan: What do you feel, Lorenzo, about what happened to all these women? Because they were all taken off the streets, they were all strangled, and each strangulation apparently took several minutes. I mean, it's a gruesome way to die.

Lorenzo Gilyard: Right, I know.

Piers Morgan: What do you feel about what happened to them?

Lorenzo Gilyard: I feel bad, but then, nothing I could do about it. ### The search

Detective: One of the things that just stood out to me was that when we went to his apartment to do a search, was how extremely neat he was. I'd never really seen a man be quite that neat.

Piers Morgan: Incredibly tidy, clinical, precise, everything was...

Detective: Yes. Everything was organized. It was all very clean. Yes, uh, if you went to look in a drawer, he could not only tell you what was in the drawer, and what order it was in. And I found that very unusual for a man.

Piers Morgan: Does that tell you that he was a man who liked to be completely in control?

Detective: Yes, that's exactly what that indicates.

Piers Morgan: And when you look at the precision with which he carried out these murders, and the way he left these poor women, again, it was all very orderly. It was very carefully executed.

Detective: Yes. ### The streets

Piers Morgan: Her body was found at 45th and Garfield. Almost three years later, 15-year-old Gwendolyn Kizine was found dead at 1312 Paseo, a wire still wrapped around her neck. Next was Margaret Miller. In the 1970s and 80s, Lorenzo Gilyard was living within a two-mile radius of where many of the bodies were found. The last woman he was accused of killing was Connie Luther. Her body was found here with a shoestring tied around her neck.

Piers Morgan: You were working these streets for seven or eight years when we now know Lorenzo Gilyard was picking women off the very streets you were on.

Former Street Sex Worker: I feel extremely fortunate that I survived. But for girls and women who, this is how they made their livelihood, this is how they survived, what were we to do? We had to take our chances. You didn't know who this killer was, what he looked like, how old he was, anything. I know for myself, you know, I would get in a car after I tried to look for obvious things, and then I would just start praying. I mean, I was in a constant prayer, you know. And I know that's, some people don't understand that, but, you know, um, when you're hungry, or when you have bills to pay, and this is all that you know, and this is all that you've known since you were a child, you know, you do what you do. And it, it was scary.

Piers Morgan: You know that these girls are getting taken by what they think is a client, and they're being taken to horrific deaths.

Former Street Sex Worker: Yes. Yeah, so that's what's going through your mind, you know, the whole time that you're in the car. When you're looking for your friend, and where is she, and no one's seen her, and then now a body's shown up, and you're waiting for the name, and you find out that someone you knew was murdered. I mean, it was a terrifying time for everybody. ### Women

Piers Morgan: Your sister, um, ended up, sadly, as a prostitute, didn't she? What, what impact did that have on you?

Lorenzo Gilyard: I don't know how to answer that. It didn't have no impact, one way or another.

Piers Morgan: How did you feel about her being a prostitute? Did you feel sad about that?

Lorenzo Gilyard: Yeah, uh-huh. Because I, you know, I tried to give, I wanted her to, wanted more for her than that.

Piers Morgan: You lived and worked in an area where there were lots of women working the streets at night, lots of prostitutes. What is your view of prostitution?

Lorenzo Gilyard: I, I have, frankly, I didn't have one view, one way or another, you know. If that, that was, if that's how they work to make their money, I guess, you know.

Piers Morgan: You didn't find it a, um, repellent profession?

Lorenzo Gilyard: I don't know, man. I don't, I can't, I don't know how to answer that. When you say "repellent", what you mean, I found it disgusting, I hated it?

Piers Morgan: Yeah.

Lorenzo Gilyard: I don't know. I am not, I don't know what to say about that.

Piers Morgan: Have you ever had sex with a prostitute?

Lorenzo Gilyard: I don't know.

Piers Morgan: You don't know?

Lorenzo Gilyard: No.

Piers Morgan: You wouldn't forget, would you?

Lorenzo Gilyard: [unclear: "If he was at" (both texts)] back then, man, clubs was club. When we, when [we went] clubbing, no matter, you know, women, they might have been working the streets at night, but they've come to clubs. So, you know, I don't know.

Piers Morgan: But have you ever paid a woman for sex?

Lorenzo Gilyard: No. No, I haven't.

Piers Morgan: Never?

Lorenzo Gilyard: Never.

Piers Morgan: Would you ever?

Lorenzo Gilyard: If she [unclear: "was good enough" (small.en) / "look good enough" (captions)], probably I would. I don't know. I, I, I ain't going to put myself, never put myself in that position. No, I, I, I don't know, man. You basically, I, I was always [unclear: "T" (captions)], you, you pay, pay a woman for sex all the time. If you buy her a drink, a, a dinner, take her out and buy, do anything, that's paying for it.

Piers Morgan: Do you think all women are prostitutes, basically?

Lorenzo Gilyard: No, I didn't say that.

Piers Morgan: That's what you're implying.

Lorenzo Gilyard: And I'm going [to end] our conversation now, because you, you're taking things out...

Piers Morgan: Well, no, no, no.

Lorenzo Gilyard: No, because you're taking things out of context. I didn't imply that.

Piers Morgan: I don't think I am taking things out of context. I'm trying to work out what you're telling me. You just said, when I said to you, you know, "What do you feel about paying women for sex?", you said, "Well, you pay women for sex all the time when you buy them dinner." And then you don't call them prostitutes. But my question was about prostitutes. So obviously, when you answer the way you did, I don't think it's irrational of me to then think you, you look at all women in that way. So if you want to clarify that, please clarify it.

Lorenzo Gilyard: No, I don't look at...

Piers Morgan: I'm not trying to be unnecessarily hostile. I'm just reacting to what you're telling me. So explain what you meant.

Lorenzo Gilyard: Most men, when you go, you know, when you take a lady out, what do you want? To have sex, right? So you buy her dinner, buy her, or take her to a movie. In hopes of what? Having sex with her later on.

Piers Morgan: I don't think it always has to lead to sex, does it?

Lorenzo Gilyard: I mean, man, either that, if they don't, you're gay.

Piers Morgan: If it doesn't lead to sex, you're gay?

Lorenzo Gilyard: Yeah. That's what, man, you, you're trying to, that's be, that's what you're trying to pretend, like that, that, that's not never in your repertoire. You know, you ain't never seen a beautiful woman or a pretty woman and said, "Well, you know, buy lunch and hope a few drinks and hope we go to the hotel or go someplace."

Piers Morgan: No, but I wouldn't assume that, that if I didn't have sex with a woman after a date in my life, that somehow that meant I was gay. That it was an automatic thing.

Lorenzo Gilyard: No, no, I didn't say it was an automatic thing.

Piers Morgan: It would always be entirely of, of the choice of the woman.

Lorenzo Gilyard: Right, right.

Piers Morgan: And by the way, there are many, many dates that happen every minute of the day that there's no consequence of sex.

Lorenzo Gilyard: Right. Okay. I, the first time, the first time out. But eventually, that's what's going to lead up to.

Piers Morgan: Right.

Lorenzo Gilyard: You're right.

Piers Morgan: You're very angry. Understandably, if, as you say, you're an innocent man, you're very angry. What do you...

Lorenzo Gilyard: I'm sorry if I put, you know, it's just, I'm getting tired, you know, of, I, I didn't kill these people. Now, I'm 68 years old. I don't have, when you're putting, trying to put words in my mouth, or twist it to, you know...

Piers Morgan: I honestly don't want to put any words in your mouth.

Lorenzo Gilyard: [unclear: "If I had have had sex with him, might have paid him" (captions) / "If I ever had sex with him, I'd have paid him" (small.en)]. ### Never met them

Piers Morgan: Gilyard says he's never had sex with any of the women he's convicted of killing. So how will he explain that the semen found on their bodies was his? Lorenzo Gilyard is telling me he's never even met the women he's convicted of killing. Any suggestion that he has gets an angry response.

Piers Morgan: When you were interviewed by the police originally, you said you'd never met any of these women.

Lorenzo Gilyard: I hadn't. Not to my knowledge.

Piers Morgan: And to your knowledge, you'd never had sex with them?

Lorenzo Gilyard: Right.

Piers Morgan: Just to clarify, you never told your lawyer you had sex with any of these women?

Lorenzo Gilyard: No, I never did.

Piers Morgan: He just made that up?

Lorenzo Gilyard: I guess he did. I never told him that. If you're going to keep saying that, then I'm going to get up and leave.

Piers Morgan: No, no, no.

Lorenzo Gilyard: Because I keep telling you I didn't tell him that.

Piers Morgan: No, Lorenzo.

Lorenzo Gilyard: That's beginning to piss me off.

Piers Morgan: I understand.

Lorenzo Gilyard: I didn't tell him that. I don't have to lie.

Piers Morgan: Lorenzo, I, I have no dog in this fight.

Lorenzo Gilyard: No.

Piers Morgan: I'm just trying to work out what happened.

Lorenzo Gilyard: Well, you keep saying over and over, I keep telling you over and over, I didn't tell him that.

Piers Morgan: Right. ### Sheila Ingold and the fish market

Piers Morgan: Gilyard will spend the rest of his life in prison, but he nearly got away with murder. For years, police were finding the bodies of women, but they had no suspects and no idea there was a serial killer on the loose. Then one November morning in 1987, they found the semi-naked body of Sheila Ingold in an abandoned van. This murder would eventually lead to the capture of Lorenzo Gilyard, almost 30 years after he's believed to have first killed.

Detective: This is where Sheila Ingold was found, right there, right there. The vans were parked out here in this lot.

Piers Morgan: The Kansas City Strangler killed four women in 1987, the busiest year. Among them, Sheila Ingold's body was discovered in an abandoned van on Troost. Lorenzo Gilyard had a personal connection to Sheila Ingold: he was dating her friend. She was the 10th woman he's accused of killing, but it was the first time the police would link him directly to a murder.

Detective: Sheila Ingold was found here in a van. Gilyard was right there in that tan building over there, and it used to be a fish market, and he was there getting fish the day the body was found.

Piers Morgan: So that was the first time that you were able to place him in the immediate proximity to one of the dead women.

Detective: Yes.

Piers Morgan: Gilyard admits to being at the fish market while the police were on the crime scene for Sheila Ingold.

Detective: One of the, the main things that led us to, uh, believe that Gilyard was involved was [unclear: "Charles Berry" (small.en) / "Charles Barry" (captions)] told me that there was an individual that wanted to look at the van.

Piers Morgan: Who is [unclear: "Charles Berry" / "Charles Barry"]?

Detective: [unclear: "Charles Berry" / "Charles Barry"] was the individual that had the, the car shop here that owned the vans.

Piers Morgan: So the man who had the store here said that a man named Lorenzo came and inquired about that van.

Detective: Yes. And he didn't want to see any of the rest of the vans. He wanted to see that particular one, even though he was told that that particular van was just one they used for parts.

Piers Morgan: So you now have him opposite where her body was found, and you have him inquiring about trying to get that van.

Detective: Yes.

Piers Morgan: And you put all that together, and what have you got?

Detective: A killer.

Piers Morgan: Gilyard was questioned. Blood and hair samples were taken, but there was not enough evidence to charge him.

Piers Morgan: What was curious about, uh, her death was that you were just opposite where her body was found, and also you'd made inquiries about buying the truck.

Lorenzo Gilyard: No. I [unclear: "didn't" / "a"] know nothing about no truck.

Piers Morgan: You never made any inquiries about it?

Lorenzo Gilyard: No. Uh-uh. ### Earlier record

Piers Morgan: I just want to go through the things that happened to you in your earlier life, and I want you to tell me just honestly what your reaction to it is.

Lorenzo Gilyard: Yeah.

Piers Morgan: Um, between 1969 and 1974, you were a suspect in five separate rape cases, but you were never convicted.

Lorenzo Gilyard: Yeah.

Piers Morgan: What do you remember about those cases?

Lorenzo Gilyard: One of them was a girlfriend, uh, that's what, that's in 1969. That's how it started. So then after that, whenever, in the neighborhoods where I lived, in the hood, whenever rapes came up, I guess they [unclear: "cut the rest" (small.en) / "to rest" (captions); possibly "they'd arrest"], you know, see who lived in the neighborhood.

Piers Morgan: In 1975, you were charged with raping a friend's sister near the Missouri River. You were charged with beating and raping her. You told police she was lying. Ultimately, you pled guilty to molesting the girl, and you got a nine-month sentence in Jackson County Jail. Do you remember that?

Lorenzo Gilyard: Yeah, I remember that.

Piers Morgan: What happened there?

Lorenzo Gilyard: I don't know. She's passed away, and her sister is passed away. That's who I was living with, was her sister. And I don't want to discuss that, what happened [with] that.

Piers Morgan: In 1980, you assaulted and threatened to shoot your wife, who then divorced you. The next month, you assaulted your ex-wife twice. You beat and pistol-whipped her. Is this, is this true?

Lorenzo Gilyard: No, she lied.

Piers Morgan: Was it an abusive relationship? Did you hit her?

Lorenzo Gilyard: No.

Piers Morgan: You never hit her?

Lorenzo Gilyard: Oh, [unclear: "well, if she hit me, yes" (small.en) / "she hit me, yes" (captions)]. I guess, I ain't going to lie, I did.

Piers Morgan: You did, you did hit her?

Lorenzo Gilyard: Yeah. ### The DNA

Piers Morgan: The reason that they arrested you and then charged you, and indeed why you got convicted, was that they found your DNA on all of these victims' bodies.

Lorenzo Gilyard: [unclear: "So they say?" (small.en) / "So what they say" (captions)].

Piers Morgan: Right. But as you know, that's why you got convicted.

Lorenzo Gilyard: Right, right.

Piers Morgan: And the odds on this being anybody but you, according to a forensic expert in court, is one in 18 quadrillion. That's one in 18 million billion chance that it could be somebody else other than you. I mean, these are extraordinary statistics.

Detective: In this particular case, it was, it was shocking that all 13 of those cases existed, but up until 2004, there had been no resolution to them. So many victims, so many cases. It's 13 people. That was the biggest we'd ever seen in, in Kansas City's history.

Piers Morgan: 12 of the bodies had semen on them, but detectives had no way of knowing they were all from the same man. The murders went unsolved. But then in 2003, over 10 years since Gilyard had last killed, a grant from the federal government enabled DNA analysis of those semen samples.

Crime Laboratory Analyst: We had Lorenzo Gilyard's blood standard from him that was actually on file in our freezer, um, and it had actually been taken in conjunction with the Sheila Ingold case. We pulled the standard and decided to run it to see if we could make an association or cross him off as a potential suspect. There was a moment, oh my God, it was the same profile. It was a very exciting resolution, so that there was finally an answer to all 12 of these cases that were now connected to one person.

Piers Morgan: Gilyard has always said the Kansas City police framed him. He insists the DNA samples were tampered with, degraded too much for accurate testing, or lost.

Piers Morgan: I'm trying to work out the truth here, because obviously you're facing at the moment the rest of your life...

Lorenzo Gilyard: Right.

Piers Morgan: ...in this prison...

Lorenzo Gilyard: Yeah.

Piers Morgan: ...for crimes that you say you didn't commit.

Lorenzo Gilyard: I did not.

Piers Morgan: Why would the police frame you, do you think?

Lorenzo Gilyard: Don't know. Your guess is good as mine. They, at that time, my, my assumption was they was trying, everybody was trying to make a name.

Piers Morgan: Right. But what makes no sense to me, Lorenzo, is that they arrested you years and years later. They were just told by the DNA laboratory, "Guys, this is the DNA we found on the bodies," and the one match they found on every one of those bodies, DNA, was your DNA. Nobody else's. [unclear: "No one else said interview" (both texts)]. And I don't understand why so much later down the line they would have any vested interest to frame you.

Lorenzo Gilyard: How did they have my DNA to, to match it to anything?

Piers Morgan: Well, they had it from when you were tested.

Lorenzo Gilyard: Tested when?

Piers Morgan: Back in the...

Lorenzo Gilyard: I, I, I...

Piers Morgan: Well, you know when you were tested, right?

Lorenzo Gilyard: I've never been tested. I've never, they've never had no...

Piers Morgan: But they had your blood, and they had your...

Lorenzo Gilyard: No, it was destroyed in 1998.

Piers Morgan: But during the process of them interviewing you and arresting you over Sheila Ingold's death, they did take samples off you. They took blood samples, they took hair, and they took saliva, right?

Lorenzo Gilyard: No, no saliva. [unclear: "They just took that back" (captions) / not in small.en].

Piers Morgan: What did they, what did you give them?

Lorenzo Gilyard: Blood and hair.

Piers Morgan: Right. That was enough for them, later, when DNA testing came in, to get your DNA from that, from those samples.

Piers Morgan: But your argument is those samples were destroyed?

Lorenzo Gilyard: Those samples was destroyed.

Piers Morgan: But when they arrested you again, years and years later, in connection with all these offenses, they did more tests on you, didn't they?

Lorenzo Gilyard: No, they didn't get no DNA from me then.

Piers Morgan: They didn't?

Lorenzo Gilyard: No.

Piers Morgan: They didn't take any blood tests?

Lorenzo Gilyard: No.

Piers Morgan: No more samples?

Lorenzo Gilyard: No, they did not.

Piers Morgan: The police arrested you for 13 murders.

Lorenzo Gilyard: 12. Okay.

Piers Morgan: Well, 12, but it was 13 in court. [unclear: "Five." (small.en only; speaker unknown)] And they never took any samples off you?

Lorenzo Gilyard: No, never did.

Crime Laboratory Analyst: So you've told me that his, Mr. Gilyard alleges his sample was never taken again in 2004. Um, and we, we have a sample in 2004 that was taken from him that we, we used for DNA analysis. So I know that's, um, that can't be true, essentially. And not only did we have his DNA on our victims, but we also had victims' DNA on items taken from Mr. Gilyard. In 2004, they took a brand new DNA standard from Mr. Gilyard, and once we completed analysis on that, we went back and checked to make sure that that standard matched all [unclear: "13" (small.en) / not in captions] cases. It matched the 1987 blood standard that we had from Mr. Gilyard, um, so everything across the board was consistent. It was all the same person. ### Anger

Piers Morgan: You have very good memory, incredibly precise memory, about everything. You can remember specific dates going back decades. And yet you occasionally have erupted with anger and threatened to leave, and, and it's, it suddenly fires up out of nowhere.

Lorenzo Gilyard: I've shared a lot with y'all and [unclear: "got nothing" / "gotten nothing"] in return.

Piers Morgan: From what? What do you want in return from me?

Lorenzo Gilyard: Nothing. Just nothing. I just [unclear: "give up" (small.en) / "get" (captions)], I, I felt offended, I guess.

Piers Morgan: What were you offended by?

Lorenzo Gilyard: The terms that you use, and some of the questions.

Piers Morgan: What would you say to all the families of these women?

Lorenzo Gilyard: I'm sorry what happened to them. That's all I can say. I didn't do it, but I'm sorry. ### The police statement

Kcpd Detective: Margaret Miller, discovered 5-9 of 82, 37th and Garfield. Do you know, or did you know, Miss Miller?

Lorenzo Gilyard: Not, not to my knowledge, no.

Kcpd Detective: Have you ever had physical contact with Miss Miller?

Lorenzo Gilyard: Not to my knowledge.

Kcpd Detective: Have you ever seen Miss Miller?

Lorenzo Gilyard: Nope. Not to my knowledge.

Kcpd Detective: [unclear: "Carmeline Hibbs, do you know" (small.en) / cut in captions] Miss Hibbs?

Lorenzo Gilyard: Not to my knowledge, no.

Kcpd Detective: Have you ever seen Miss Hibbs?

Lorenzo Gilyard: Not to my knowledge, no.

Kcpd Detective: Have you ever had any physical contact with her?

Lorenzo Gilyard: Not to my knowledge, no. No, not to my knowledge. Not to my knowledge. Not to my knowledge. I [unclear: "came" (captions)], no, I didn't know her. Nope. Not to my knowledge.

Kcpd Detective: Have you ever seen her?

Lorenzo Gilyard: Not to my knowledge. ### "An innocent man"

Piers Morgan: Does it matter to you whether I believe you or not?

Lorenzo Gilyard: No, not really. I don't know why. After you walk out of this room, I...

Piers Morgan: You, you see, I, I think you're a plausible talker. You have an answer for everything. But I found some of what you've said about women a little bit disturbing. I think other people will too. You've admitted to potentially being a violent man. We know you have a record of convictions for sexual assault and for violence.

Lorenzo Gilyard: [unclear: "I thought you, I thought" (captions) / not in small.en]...

Piers Morgan: Well, well, you have, you have criminal convictions for assault and for violence, right? You do have, you don't, you haven't contested that. When you put it all together, and you have the police saying, categorically, in their words to me, "There is not a one in a hundred million chance it was anybody but Lorenzo Gilyard. The DNA from him directly matched each, every one of these women." It's very hard to look at you, Lorenzo, and see an innocent man.

Lorenzo Gilyard: Okay. Then, then that's it. So are we through, then? If you don't, yeah, that's good.

Piers Morgan: Is any part of you, and I'll be straight with you, you've always denied all this despite the overwhelming evidence.

Lorenzo Gilyard: Overwhelming evidence. DNA.

Piers Morgan: That's, DNA is pretty overwhelming.

Lorenzo Gilyard: Okay. According to the police. Okay.

Piers Morgan: According to anyone that studies the DNA results.

Lorenzo Gilyard: And who else did it but the, the Kansas City Police Department?

Piers Morgan: Well, let me ask you this, then. If it wasn't you, who else was it?

Lorenzo Gilyard: I don't know. I don't know.

Piers Morgan: Have you got any theories?

Lorenzo Gilyard: No. I don't know. I, I don't know, man. I truly don't know.

Piers Morgan: The problem I have, Lorenzo, is that you go from being this charming, well-spoken, polite man to somebody very different very quickly. And so you go to somebody that I could imagine, if he was angry and he was pushed enough, could be very dangerous.

Lorenzo Gilyard: So what, what, these women made me angry, or pushed enough to do, to make me hurt them? You tell me.

Piers Morgan: I'm asking you.

Lorenzo Gilyard: I, they couldn't have done nothing. They couldn't have done nothing.

Piers Morgan: Did they disrespect you?

Lorenzo Gilyard: I don't know how they, I don't know how they could have disrespected me. I didn't know them.

Piers Morgan: Yet your DNA was found all over their bodies.

Lorenzo Gilyard: Okay.

Piers Morgan: But you know that.

Lorenzo Gilyard: All right. All over their bodies? Come on. I know that wasn't right. It was in the, in their sex area, with, uh, Sheila Ingold. It was a spot on her leg.

Piers Morgan: How did it get there?

Lorenzo Gilyard: I don't know.

Piers Morgan: You never met her, you said?

Lorenzo Gilyard: I never met her. I don't know. Uh, I, I just truly don't know.

Piers Morgan: What was your defense in court?

Lorenzo Gilyard: I truly don't know. I was just there.

Piers Morgan: You have no idea what your defense was?

Lorenzo Gilyard: No. I read, I...

Piers Morgan: You were, you were charged with killing 13 women by strangulation, and you have no idea what your defense was. Do you think I'm an idiot, Lorenzo? Do I look an idiot to you?

Lorenzo Gilyard: [unclear: "Again, I go back" (small.en) / "Can I going back" (captions)]. Have a good day, y'all.

Piers Morgan: Thank you.

Unidentified Voices: All right. [unclear: "Here, this is y'all" (both texts)]. ### Closing

Piers Morgan: Tonight, Lorenzo Gilyard will go back to his cell, as he does every night, and reflect, perhaps, on how he could have grown old with his wife, Jackie, the woman he told me he loved. Instead, he will die in prison, a serial killer whose past eventually caught up with him.

Dawn: When you don't have your mom, there's a part of you that just, that, that missing piece that you have growing up. You never get over it.

Piers Morgan: You just get the feeling he's managed to avoid having to deal with any of this in terms of accountability.

Dawn: Yeah. Nobody's, I mean, since the trial, I'm sure nobody's been in his face to tell him.

Piers Morgan: He's done no interviews.

Dawn: No. Nothing.

Piers Morgan: He's not had anybody do it to [him].

Dawn: Good.

Piers Morgan: [unclear: "And he unnerved him" / "He unnerved him" (both texts)].

Dawn: As a human being, we all have that innate compassion. He doesn't have it.

Piers Morgan: Having spent time with him, I actually think being incarcerated for the rest of his life, for someone like him, might be the best of all punishments.

Dawn: That actually brings me a little bit of peace, to know that he's suffering. He should suffer, because he devastated us, and we can't get it back. So good. I'm glad to hear that he's quite miserable. I hope it continues. ---