"It Wasn't God": Elizabeth Wettlaufer's Complete Police Confession, 2016
The full two-and-a-half-hour Woodstock police interview, played in court at her guilty plea: Elizabeth Wettlaufer goes victim by victim through the insulin overdoses she gave patients from 2007 to 2016, and the "red surging" she once took for God.
- Subject
- Elizabeth Wettlaufer
- Recorded
- about October 5, 2016
- Runtime
- 2:35:35
Content warning: A nurse describes, in her own words, killing eight elderly patients and harming six others with insulin overdoses; she also describes patients groping staff. No graphic detail.
The Interview
On the evening of October 5, 2016, Elizabeth Wettlaufer, a registered nurse from Woodstock, Ontario, sat in a Woodstock police interview room and described how she had killed patients in her care. Officers had collected her that afternoon from the Centre for Addiction and Mental Health (CAMH) in Toronto, where she had been a patient for several weeks, and she had accepted a ride back to Woodstock to talk to them. At the start the interviewing officer, from the Woodstock Police Service crime unit, told her that she was not under arrest, that the door was unlocked, and that she could stop or call a lawyer at any time, and cautioned her. She asked to be called Beth. The video, about two and a half hours long, was posted as the complete recording played in court.
Historical Context
Wettlaufer worked in long-term care homes in southwestern Ontario from 2007. Between 2007 and 2016 she injected residents and patients with overdoses of insulin. Eight died: seven at Caressant Care in Woodstock and one at Meadow Park in London. Six others survived. Her employers and the authorities did not detect the crimes. In September 2016 she admitted herself to CAMH and told staff what she had done; she gave a statement to Toronto police on September 29, 2016, and wrote out a four-page list of the people she had harmed. She was charged with eight counts of first-degree murder on October 25, 2016, and with further offences in January 2017.
Circumstances of the Interview
The interview was a follow-up to her disclosures in Toronto. The officer had watched her Toronto statement and had her handwritten document in front of him; he took her through it name by name, in the order she had written it. She was not under arrest and, near the end, said she wanted to go home and spend Thanksgiving weekend with her family. The officer told her that a search warrant had been executed at her home and asked whether she would agree to an 810 peace bond (a court order with conditions) before any charge. On June 1, 2017, she pleaded guilty in the Ontario Superior Court of Justice in Woodstock to eight counts of first-degree murder, four of attempted murder and two of aggravated assault, and this recording was played in court.
What the Interview Covers
She begins with her education and career: Huron Park Secondary School, London Baptist Bible College, Conestoga College, a nursing job in Geraldton, Christian Horizons, Caressant Care from June 2007 until she was fired in 2014, Meadow Park, the Lifeguard nursing agency and Saint Elizabeth Healthcare. She describes a drug addiction fed by medication taken from patients, and the workload of a charge nurse responsible for 32 residents. She then goes through each person on her list: James Silcox, Maurice Granat, Helen Matheson, Mary Zurawinski, Gladys Millard, Helen Young, Maureen Pickering and Arpad (Art) Horvath, who died, and Clotilde Adriano, Albina Demedeiros, Wayne Hedges, Michael Priddle, Sandra Towler and Beverly Bertram, who survived. For each she describes where the patient was, how she took insulin that was not tracked, what she told the patient ("your vitamin injection", "for your pain"), and what she did afterwards.
Throughout, she describes a "red surging" feeling that a patient was "the one", and a "laughter" in her chest afterwards. She says she came to believe that God wanted to use her, then began to wonder whether it was the devil, and now believes "it wasn't God" but something wrong with her psychologically. She describes a pause of several years in which she tried to stop through prayer and church, and says she told a pastor, a former girlfriend, friends and a lawyer at various times, and that none of them went to the police; it was a friend she confided in while at CAMH who called them. She says she quit nursing in 2016 after being told she would be caring for children, because she feared what she might do. She says she feels horrible for the families who will now learn what happened, and says she hopes someone can study her.
What Makes the Recording Significant
Investigators had no case against Wettlaufer until she confessed, and her own statements were the core of the evidence that led to the charges. Here she gives a detailed account of each death and attempt, including how insulin could be taken without being tracked and how the deaths were recorded as natural. The case led Ontario to hold the Long-Term Care Homes Public Inquiry under Commissioner Eileen Gillese, which reported in July 2019.
Archival Importance
Short clips of this interview were widely broadcast after the plea. This video was posted as the full recording played in court, preserving the officer's questions as well as her answers, the cautions at the start, and the discussion of what would happen next at the end.
Important Caveats
Her explanations (a voice, a "red surging", God, the devil, her mental health, the stresses of the job) are her own account. She pleaded guilty and on June 26, 2017, Justice Bruce Thomas sentenced her to life imprisonment with no eligibility for parole for 25 years. Her estimates of dates, doses and the victims' ages are her recollections and in several cases differ from the published record. She was not under arrest during this interview. The transcript rests on a single machine reading with no captions, and many words are marked unclear; do not quote bracketed passages until the listening check.
Nathan Hergott: So, um, so yeah, like I said, um, I'm just going to go through [unclear: "for everything in this"] room is audio and video recorded.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Right.
Nathan Hergott: You okay with that?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Oh, yeah.
Nathan Hergott: Okay. So I just want to go through, like I said, a couple formalities, cover a few little things off, things that I have to do on my end that I need to do and things that I just want to tell you and make sure that we're all on the same page before we, uh, before we get going. Okay?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Okay.
Nathan Hergott: So first off, um, today is Wednesday, October the 5th, 2016. And on my phone right now, I'll just use that as a time reference, is five-fourteen, so 1714. Let's use that as a start time of our conversation here today. Um, again, my name is Nathan Hergott with the Woodstock Police Service. I currently work in our crime unit and, uh, we met a short time ago in downtown Toronto. Correct?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Right. Yeah.
Nathan Hergott: So, um, we came to a facility where you've spent the last few weeks, from what I understand.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah.
Nathan Hergott: And, uh, we met with Dr. Kahn and his team of, uh, associates, and I believe you're under his care for the last little while, correct?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah.
Nathan Hergott: Okay. And, uh, the process [unclear: "I probably got here"] basically is, um, kind of offered you a ride back, and, and so we can have this conversation, and you graciously accepted, and, uh, off we went down the 401, or the, well, the, the Gardiner, [unclear: "one or the Gardiner that came with you"]. And here we are. Right. So just to make it clear for whoever may watch us in the future, we didn't force you to come with us. We didn't shove you in the car and off we went, kind of thing. You did it on your own free will and you accepted it on your own decision making. Is that correct?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yes. [unclear: "I had enough and even let me try to get money to homeless people."]
Nathan Hergott: There you go. [unclear: "I remember all of that."] So I know I've read you a few things before, as we were kind of just cruising down Spadina there. And I know you've been read this many times, but it's just things that we need to just reiterate and make sure that you're clear and comfortable with having this conversation today. Okay?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Okay.
Nathan Hergott: Okay. Like I said, based on our investigation, there could be some pretty serious criminal charges that result of our investigation. Okay? So having said that, if you wish to speak to a lawyer at any time, I don't want you to hesitate. We can make it happen whenever you like.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Okay.
Nathan Hergott: So whether it's now, five minutes from now, an hour from now, or three days from now, whatever the case may be, you just like...
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: [unclear: "We're going to be asking questions for three days early." / "You're going to be asking questions for three days?"]
Nathan Hergott: I hope not. I hope not. Okay. I'm just saying that any time that you want to speak to a lawyer, that you're kind of in our company or whatever the case may be, let us know and we can make that accommodation for you. Okay? Does that make sense?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yes.
Nathan Hergott: Okay. Because in your position as a Canadian citizen, you're entitled to have free legal advice from a legal aid duty counsel lawyer, a lawyer of your choice, whoever you like. Okay? Make sense?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yes.
Nathan Hergott: Okay. And like I said, because there could be some criminal charges that result of our investigation. Okay?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Okay.
Nathan Hergott: Also, and I know you've read this many times before, that you may be charged with many criminal offences, and you don't have to say anything in answer to the charges [unclear: "that you see"]. But if you wish to do so, [unclear: "we're going to do that today. We're going to do that today."] But whatever you do say could be used in court. And I know we had that conversation in the car on the way back to Woodstock, and I asked you to repeat it in your own words, and you kind of gave us a few of describing it in your own vocabulary. You said something like, it's not Vegas. What happens in the car on the way back doesn't necessarily stay in the car. The same thing in this room. Anything that you say and everything that we talked about [unclear: "should" / "could"] be used in evidence at court.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yep.
Nathan Hergott: Okay. So, kind of, [unclear: "you leave"] the same rules apply. Okay? And if you've spoken to any other police officers, I know that you've dealt with the [unclear: "trauma" / probably "Toronto"] police officers, there was a couple officers in the car on our trip back here, if anyone's persuaded you or tried to push you into making a statement, whatever they said, I don't want that to influence you in any way.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Well, what I'm about to say, I'm giving up my own free will.
Nathan Hergott: Sorry. [unclear: "Sorry." may be Wettlaufer] And I appreciate that. And we'll be moving forward [unclear: "for another few things"]. And I know that we said this in the car, you are not under arrest right now. Okay?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Okay.
Nathan Hergott: Okay. I want to make that very clear to you.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Okay.
Nathan Hergott: You're not under arrest. The door is unlocked.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Okay.
Nathan Hergott: I'm not [unclear: "repeating your way" / "blocking your way"] to the door if you want to leave at any time. If you want to stop talking to me at any time, you just let me know, and we'll just carry on from there.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Okay.
Nathan Hergott: Okay. You're not being held here against your will. We're not forcing you to speak to us. We just have some follow-up questions from the investigation that kind of [unclear: "caught one"] while you were in Toronto.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yes. Being interviewed is hard because it takes so long.
Nathan Hergott: It does.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: So [unclear: "do mind asking"], like I said, if I have to get up and pace around a bit or whatever.
Nathan Hergott: If you want to take a break at any time, you let us know. If you want to get up and pace around, I'll just kind of hang tight here.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah.
Nathan Hergott: And we'll just keep conversing as long as you're comfortable.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: I will as long as I can.
Nathan Hergott: Okay. All right. Sounds good. That's kind of all formalities, but like I said, those are the things that I just wanted to make sure that we're clear to you. And if you have any questions for me before we get started, [unclear: "that's Laura George's"]. Is there anything, or any concerns that you have?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: No, I just want to get through this and find out what happened to my mom and dad, because I know they're upset because someone went to visit them today.
Nathan Hergott: Okay.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: They visited them today and they said, you know, they're here. We're concerned. What's going on?
Nathan Hergott: Oh, I can imagine. I can imagine. And I honestly don't have those answers for you, but I can get them for you. My role in this investigation so far has been not as in depth as some of the other officers, but my task today obviously was to travel to Toronto and meet with you with my fellow co-workers and come back here and have a conversation. So that's kind of where I'm at right now. But I can definitely get those answers for you. And I don't want to upset any more people than need to be, especially your mom and dad. [unclear: "You should have bought blue ticket for you in there."]
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: You know what? If I could afford them for the class, I probably would have. [unclear: "Yeah, that was an exciting last name."]
Nathan Hergott: So just for the record, and I know you prefer to go by Beth, is what you told me, is that correct?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yes.
Nathan Hergott: You can just state your full name for me.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: [unclear: "And then there's a Tracy May what offer?"; she states her full name, probably "Elizabeth Tracy Mae Wettlaufer"]
Nathan Hergott: Tracy May?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yes.
Nathan Hergott: Okay. And just spell your last name for the record.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: W-E-T-T-L-A-U-F-E-R.
Nathan Hergott: Perfect. And Beth, the reason why we're here today is because we've received some information back at the end of last week with regards to some information that was provided to the Toronto Police Service, which has led us into quite a bit of work and [unclear: "Lisa shared today"] to speak to you with regards to kind of how this all started, and follow up. But basically, I've watched your statement that you provided to Toronto.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Okay.
Nathan Hergott: Okay. And we've been provided this document here. Does that look familiar to you?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yes.
Nathan Hergott: Okay. All right. And from what I can see here, there's four pages of handwritten documents. That's your handwriting?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yes, it is.
Nathan Hergott: Okay. And it just kind of goes through some people that you've encountered in your career, from 2007 through to...
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: 2016.
Nathan Hergott: 2016, of August.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah. August of 2016.
Nathan Hergott: Okay. So that's kind of the focus of our investigation right now.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Right.
Nathan Hergott: [unclear: "You put" / "What you put"] on these four pieces of paper.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yes.
Nathan Hergott: Okay. But before we get into that, I just want to kind of get an idea of your career and where you've kind of... where you've been in your career and kind of how you got into things.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: I'm a registered nurse. I started from... I started from... from Huron Park Secondary School. I graduated grade 13. I graduated [unclear: "one three year" / "one year"] of law school, not law school, but journalism school.
Nathan Hergott: Okay.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: And then went to Bible college, London Baptist Bible College in London. Graduated with a degree in counselling, with a bachelor's degree in counselling. And then discovered that that's not going to be really going to get me a lot as far as work-wise and career-wise. And so I went back to Huron Park High School for a year, and I took a year of math and sciences. Went on to Conestoga College, and they have... it's in Kitchener, but they have a Stratford campus. So I went there for three years.
Nathan Hergott: Okay.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: And then when I graduated there, I worked in a place called Geraldton.
Nathan Hergott: Okay.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Which is 16 hours north of Toronto.
Nathan Hergott: I was going to say, it's quite a bit north.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: [unclear: "We are the North of Thunder Bay." / "It's north of Thunder Bay."]
Nathan Hergott: Yeah, [unclear: "everybody's out there"].
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah. Worked there. Couldn't stand the isolation. Moved back. Worked for an organization called Christian Horizons here in town, in one of their group homes, until 2007, at which time the marriage fell apart, in February 2007. And I met a woman online, and she decided to move to be with me.
Nathan Hergott: Right.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: So, I ended up quitting the job I was at and going to Caressant Care to make a little bit more money, because I was the one who brought it in for her. So, I started working at Caressant Care, I believe it was June 2007.
Nathan Hergott: And how long did you work there for?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Until, um, 2015. Yeah, until, like, I think it was March 2014.
Nathan Hergott: And were you always in the same role?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: As a registered nurse.
Nathan Hergott: As a registered nurse.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah. And a registered nurse's role is always the same.
Nathan Hergott: Yeah.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: But, um, I worked in different areas of [unclear: "home" / "the home"].
Nathan Hergott: Okay.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: There's five [unclear: "links" / probably "wings"] to Caressant Care, so I worked in different areas.
Nathan Hergott: Right. Okay. [unclear: "Altru of" / "All through"] the seven or so years that you were there?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah.
Nathan Hergott: Okay. And at that point did you have different supervisors from unit to unit, or?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: No, there was...
Nathan Hergott: There was one person, or?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: There was one supervisor, (director of nursing, name withheld), she was the head nurse.
Nathan Hergott: Okay.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: And then there was, like, people under her. (Colleague, name withheld), (colleague, name withheld), I don't know [unclear: "if there was a rest of them" / "the rest of them"]. And there was, like, an administrative head. And I think for all of that time it was (administrator, name withheld).
Nathan Hergott: Right. Okay. And then from Caressant Care, I know you've had a few other...
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah, I went from Caressant... fired from Caressant Care...
Nathan Hergott: Okay.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: ...for a medication error.
Nathan Hergott: Okay.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Then from there I went to Meadow Park Nursing Home.
Nathan Hergott: Okay.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: And left there to [unclear: "give help" / "get help"] with an addiction issue.
Nathan Hergott: Okay.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Hoping that it would get help with that as well. And then when I came back, I started working again in January. I left Meadow Park in September of 2014, and I started working for a nursing agency called Lifeguard in 2015, and I worked with them for over a year. And then in July 2016, I started working for St. Elizabeth's Healthcare.
Nathan Hergott: Okay.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: As well, I was still working for Lifeguard.
Nathan Hergott: Oh, okay. And how did that work? Did you just split your time between the two, or was it just kind of a part-time position at both organizations?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: St. Elizabeth was my priority.
Nathan Hergott: Okay.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: So, and Lifeguard is very much... you pick up the shifts as they come. It's very few scheduled shifts. So, I can say yes and no to them, and [unclear: "post on" / "focus on"] St. Elizabeth's.
Nathan Hergott: And were those roles where you would do, like, in-home care with different [unclear: "lives" / "clients"]?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: With Lifeguard, it's an agency. So, you go into nursing homes. You go into people's homes. You go into, like, retirement homes. You do a lot of different things, a lot of one-on-ones with people, like in their own homes, 12-hour shifts, eight-hour shifts, sitting with them. A lot of stuff I did was sitting with [unclear: "five of" / "palliative"] patients.
Nathan Hergott: Right. Okay. That would be tough.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: [unclear: "Haven't this okay?"]
Nathan Hergott: Yeah.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Because I knew they were going to die.
Nathan Hergott: Yeah.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: And it was just an opportunity to give the family a rest.
Nathan Hergott: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it's an important role. I mean, a lot of people wouldn't see it that way, and [unclear: "when you even notice"] the care that these people are giving from people like yourself, right?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah.
Nathan Hergott: So to give the families a bit of a break and to take that role is important.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: That's what a lot of people don't see, right? Because when someone's dying in the house, families don't want everyone to be asleep at once, right? That can be very hard if you're not able to do that.
Nathan Hergott: That's right.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: But if you have a nurse there that says, no, it's okay, I've got this. I have the medication to [unclear: "get" / "give"]. It's going to be all right then.
Nathan Hergott: Yeah. Yeah. Back at Meadow Park, what were your addictions?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: I had a [unclear: "rush" / possibly "Hydromorph"].
Nathan Hergott: Okay. All right.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: I had a [unclear: "rush" / possibly "Hydromorph"].
Nathan Hergott: Okay. And how much were you using?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: I was a [unclear: "BIN" / probably "binge"] user, so I would use what I could get a hold of by stealing it from the patient.
Nathan Hergott: Okay. All right. And how would that work? Would it just be in a lot of medications, or would you have access to a [unclear: "card"] [unclear: "to be your nurse" / "as the nurse"]?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: There were some in there, a lot of medications. Some of them had [unclear: "confusions" / "confusion"]. They couldn't tell the difference between what [unclear: "those of you were doing"]. But I'd give them a lot. I'd give them more.
Nathan Hergott: Okay.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: There was a lot of them had as-needed, so it would be in a big card. And I would say, I would just punch out that, oh, [unclear: "Barney"] needed two of those today, and I was [unclear: "building" / "billing"] the three of those today, when they really didn't.
Nathan Hergott: Okay.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: And that's how I would get a hold of it.
Nathan Hergott: Okay.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Every once in a while, there was also a... Well, there was also a drug, a big drug holder, like a safe almost, that we would put the drugs in.
Nathan Hergott: Okay.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Once somebody died, and there were, like, 23 [unclear: "hydromarks" / probably "Hydromorphs"] left, would slide the whole card into the drug holder. Well, if you picked it up and turned it upside down and shook it, you'd get drugs back out of it. So, yeah.
Nathan Hergott: Oh. So, you had your [unclear: "wage" / "ways"]?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yes.
Nathan Hergott: Okay. So, was that ever an issue with that? [unclear: "Were we" / "Were you"] ever confronted, or did that go totally undetected for the time you were there?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: There was a time when [unclear: "hydromarks" / probably "Hydromorph"] was delivered to the home, and they didn't get put away right away by the person they should have, and so I took [unclear: "my hydromarks"] and put it in my bag and took it home, and it wasn't discovered [unclear: "for us" / "for a while"]. So, I just [unclear: "played them" / "played dumb"], and [unclear: "the police told me about it" / "when the police asked me about it"], I [unclear: "played them" / "played dumb"].
Nathan Hergott: Yeah. And that was that?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah.
Nathan Hergott: Okay. So, as a [unclear: "vendor" / "binge"] user, then, like, how much would you be using on a... I mean, obviously, [unclear: "when you use it on a daily basis, or if you're a vendor user"], but how long did the addiction last for?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Oh, the addiction lasted from, I think it started in 2008, [unclear: "so" / "to"] 2014, at which time I went away and got treatment, a treatment centre.
Nathan Hergott: Okay.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: But then, I started using again, probably since January 2015, 2015.
Nathan Hergott: Okay. And are you still using, when you get your hands on them, or?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: No.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: No. I'm going to stop using alcohol as well, as I have friends in AA, and I've got a clear plan, if I'm able to be out [unclear: "in the vote"], for February, a clear plan. And I also know, if I'm not able to be out [unclear: "in the vote"], that AA and [unclear: "XROS"] and other [unclear: "students"], and I don't know if [unclear: "students"] have some programs where they come into prison. So, that's my plan.
Nathan Hergott: That's good that you have a plan. What do you think the reason is that you stepped into the addiction back in the [unclear: "week" / "day"]? What do you think, was the stresses of the job that you were facing, or your personal life as well?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Just always feeling like I had to be the best possible person, and very stressful job, giving medications to 32 people, making sure treatments were done on 32 people, [unclear: "Charity procedure"], 32 people, supervising four PSWs, because sometimes they didn't always get along. Sometimes they didn't always get along with me.
Nathan Hergott: It's a hard job. I mean, [unclear: "there's a way"]. It's a hard job.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: I believe 100%. And then they would add different things. Like, oh, you have to do this and that. Say, who's here? And counting the medications at the end of the shift. It was a hard job. I always was putting this pressure on myself to be a really good nurse and to do everything perfectly. And every once in a while, when I [unclear: "give that hold of a hydro marker to it"] and take it, then that pressure was gone.
Nathan Hergott: Right. And the treatment centre that you went away to, where was that?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: I cannot remember. I tried to, try to remember.
Nathan Hergott: Was it local, or?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: No, it was at a town that was like [unclear: "two of the two hour drives"]. You know where the locks are?
Nathan Hergott: Yeah.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Near [unclear: "Nye's"]. Welland. Welland. It's a little town outside of Welland.
Nathan Hergott: Okay.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: And they have... it's an 18-day treatment that they have. And I was successful. I went through the whole thing.
Nathan Hergott: It's an 18-day treatment.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yes. And it helps.
Nathan Hergott: Yes. What about family? You're born and raised in Woodstock?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah, born and raised in Woodstock. Married from [unclear: "2007 to 2007"; probably "1997 to 2007"]. We broke up February 2007. No children. I wanted them. He never did. My mom and dad are in their 70s, 75 and 76. My [unclear: "husband" / probably "brother"] is all over the area. My brother and his wife and four kids, they live in... They're quite active. The oldest one is 26 and he's got a wife and two kids. He lives with his parents. They all live with his parents, but for my... Just one big house of crazy families.
Nathan Hergott: Have you been out to visit at all?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: I've been to see their house once. They've been here a few times. They came in 2013 for my parents' 50th wedding anniversary. My nephew and his wife stayed behind and lived with my parents for a few months. My nephew tried to go to Bible college, but he wasn't successful. They went back.
Nathan Hergott: So your brother is older or younger than you?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Older. He's three years older than me. 52.
Nathan Hergott: Right on. So as far as your latest position, at St. Elizabeth?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah.
Nathan Hergott: That was your last position as an RN?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yes, it was.
Nathan Hergott: And you said you resigned from there?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah.
Nathan Hergott: What brought you to that?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: [unclear: "That's not something we get a little crazy." / "That's where it gets a little crazy."]
Nathan Hergott: Okay.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: This is part that I haven't told the doctors.
Nathan Hergott: Okay.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Um, because it seems so stupid now. Well, my ex and I broke up in 2007. I was already taking the medication for my borderline personality disorder. And I was so angry. And it was like a voice said inside me, [unclear: "I'll use it if you don't worry about it."] And the different times that I have caused people's deaths or caused them discomfort through the, um, through the influence, I believe it was the influence of that voice and whatever it was. It [unclear: "was" / "wasn't"] a voice in my head. It was a voice in the ear. And when I would do it, afterwards, I would hear like a laughter in my chest.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: So I started working for St. Elizabeth. And I was doing well, but it was a lot of pressure. And the way that, you know, that I've helped people to die has been through [unclear: "this one" / "insulin"]. And after my first, my 30-day evaluation, my supervisor came to me and said, you know, I'm really sorry, we want you for Woodstock, but we have so many kids through the school [unclear: "of an angry fall" / "in Ingersoll"] that need help with their [unclear: "influence pumps" / "insulin pumps"] that you're going to start working [unclear: "in an angry fall" / "in Ingersoll"]. And I panicked. I panicked. I didn't want to do that. Because I felt, you know, what if? [unclear: "I was a kid."]
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: So about, it was about a week after that that I quit. And then I packed my stuff in the car, and I drove two days into, I drove into Quebec, thinking like I would just start a run-away sort of thing. Then I thought, no, that's just stupid. I came back, and I was going to tell my parents what was going on, but they had visitors from Scotland. So, I didn't tell them. I just, I'm sorry, spent two weeks pretending to go to work.
Nathan Hergott: Okay. [unclear: "One of the visitors from Scotland were here."]
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: It's funny, but it's not funny. And then, [unclear: "once days off" / "on my days off"], I decided I didn't want to nurse anymore. I didn't want to hurt anybody anymore. So, I also quit my other job. And then I decided, well, whatever Friday that was, I did a lot of looking into how I could get help, because I realized I needed help with whatever this was. Because part of me had started to believe that it was the devil. And part of me thought it might be God. It was the purpose of my life. And I know the doctor asked me those questions, but I didn't answer them, because I was so ashamed. But I just, I didn't want just to keep going on. So, I quit both jobs. Looked into where I could get help. (Her psychiatrist, name withheld) is my psychiatrist, and he's not a very nice man. So, I went on an online support group, and was talking to people on there. And they were saying, you know, get some help. So, then I started researching some psych boards and stuff. And I saw CAMH. And they are the only mental health facility in Ontario that has a [unclear: "University State Department"]. So, I made a decision. I went there one Friday morning. I just [unclear: "trained and also went" / "took the train and went"].
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: And before I went, I told, I told three people what was going on. My friend from AA, and my friend, [unclear], I told them what was going on, and I said, yes, go get help. And my friend drove me to the train station.
Nathan Hergott: And when you said you told them what was going on, did you get into [unclear: "help or"]...?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: I told them that I had [unclear: "to kill the people" / "killed people"], and they all said, yes, you better go get help. [unclear: "So, off my mind."] And she's friends from when I used to work at...
Nathan Hergott: Okay.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Um, and she drove me to the train station on Friday morning.
Nathan Hergott: And then your other friend...
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Is my cousin.
Nathan Hergott: Okay.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: She lives in BC.
Nathan Hergott: And if you don't want to tell me, that's fine, based on the reason why this person may or may not be a friend, but your AA friend...
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: My AA friend, yes. She's... I can tell your first name, but otherwise it's confidentiality.
Nathan Hergott: And I don't want to dig into that at this point. That's not a problem at all. So, did you disclose the same thing to all those three people?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: That I had [unclear: "been given for a number of hours" / "killed a number of people"], but I didn't say why, because at that point it felt so stupid. It just felt so stupid.
Nathan Hergott: And Beth, to be honest with you, I admire the way that you're conducting yourself and telling us and having this conversation with me. I thank you for that. And I'm not here to judge in any way.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: I know.
Nathan Hergott: So I [unclear: "don't want you to know" / "want you to know"] that. And I'm not a doctor. I know you've spent a lot of time at CAMH the last three weeks, right?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yes.
Nathan Hergott: And I'm far from a doctor, but I do appreciate you telling me the truth and telling me the way that these things happened and played out.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah.
Nathan Hergott: And I admire you for that.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: And it's, you know, it's been a while, because I've been [unclear: "doing about" / "going back and forth"], like, do I give the names of the people that I killed?
Nathan Hergott: Right.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Because then here's eight families that thought that their family member died peacefully and normally, and they didn't. And what's that going to do to those families?
Nathan Hergott: Right.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: And even up to going to the hospital, I decided I was just going to give the first names. And my cousin [unclear: "has listened" / "said, listen"], they know what years you worked there. If you don't tell them the exact names, they're going to go in there and go over every file. And that's going to be even worse for the families there.
Nathan Hergott: Right.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: So, she was the one to give me that advice, to give the names.
Nathan Hergott: Okay. And as far as you know, have these people reached out to any of the police agencies where they may reside to notify [unclear: "the youth told in this" / "what you told them"]?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: No.
Nathan Hergott: Did you tell them in kind of confidence?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: I told them it was confidence, and they promised me they wouldn't tell anyone.
Nathan Hergott: Okay.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: But basically, the [unclear: "appliance" / "alliance" / "compliance"] was, if I didn't get help, then they'd be on the phone the next day.
Nathan Hergott: Okay. So, did you tell them basically that on Thursday?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: I told them the night before I went.
Nathan Hergott: Okay. So, Thursday night?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah.
Nathan Hergott: And then you took off Friday morning?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah.
Nathan Hergott: Okay.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: So, that's basically what they said was, you know, if you haven't gotten help Friday, then [unclear: "work on the police" / "we're calling the police"]. We love you, but [unclear: "work on the police" / "we're calling the police"].
Nathan Hergott: And it's probably felt that they had an obligation, right?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah.
Nathan Hergott: Yeah. What medications are you on right now?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: I'm taking... I'm taking fluvoxamine. It's called Luvox, 200 milligrams. It's anti-obsessional and antidepressant. I'm taking 300 milligrams of [unclear: "serifil", probably "Seroquel"], which is an antipsychotic, and they upped that when I was at CAMH, which has really helped clear my thinking. And then I'm taking a couple of blood pressure medications, and I've got some loxapine for when I get really agitated.
Nathan Hergott: And when we left the hospital, you had to take [unclear: "in, I believe, from out of in" / "an Ativan"]. Is that right?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: I took two milligrams of [unclear: "out of in" / "Ativan"] when we left the hospital, which was, you guys noted, the time, [unclear: "once or a year" / "one-something"], something like that. And I've had nothing since.
Nathan Hergott: Okay.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: And I know that the doctor, [unclear: "Dr. Kombra"], provided me with a prescription, and he also gave me two loxapines, and was very strict. I am not to take them until all the interviews are over, because they will start to interfere with my thinking, and then [unclear: "let me see the interviews" / "mess up the interviews"].
Nathan Hergott: Exactly. And do you feel that you're [unclear: "on a clear sound line" / "of clear, sound mind"] right now?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yes, I do.
Nathan Hergott: You're conversing with me in this room?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yes.
Nathan Hergott: And everything that you're telling me is the truth and the best that you can remember?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yes, yes.
Nathan Hergott: I can appreciate where you're coming from as far as the work that you went through. Obviously, I've never been a nurse, and I've never worked in [unclear: "a person" / "a position"] that you did, but I can imagine how overwhelming it was.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yes.
Nathan Hergott: Having a lot of responsibility, maybe not having the support of the administration or your supervisors, you know, just kind of go and get it done, right?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yes.
Nathan Hergott: And that could be, I can see how that would be stressful, and I can see how that would drive you maybe into your addiction and into other things. But I want to just go over this document, if that's okay with you. Okay? Would you be willing to do that with me?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yes.
Nathan Hergott: Okay. And you do your thing.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Sorry.
Nathan Hergott: No, no, no.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Sorry.
Nathan Hergott: Absolutely not.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: This is pretty, excuse me, major. I've only ever had parking tickets. I've never been arrested for anything.
Nathan Hergott: Well, like I said, you're not under arrest right now.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Oh, I know.
Nathan Hergott: But it is a very significant investigation.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: I understand.
Nathan Hergott: Okay. And like I said before, Beth, I do appreciate you speaking with us. I can imagine that. Does it feel like a weight off your shoulders?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yes.
Nathan Hergott: You've been carrying a burden for quite some time.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: And I've tried to get help.
Nathan Hergott: Yeah. Well, sometimes it takes a few attempts to finally commit to it, right?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah. I had a pastor that I told, prayed over me, and told me I'd be fine. And that was God's grace.
Nathan Hergott: When was that?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: That was Halloween 2013.
Nathan Hergott: Okay.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah.
Nathan Hergott: And you kind of told us what had happened [unclear: "to you to that point you're like with"]?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yes.
Nathan Hergott: Involving these people?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yes.
Nathan Hergott: Okay. And where was that?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: That was here in town.
Nathan Hergott: Okay.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Do you want his name?
Nathan Hergott: Actually, if you want to tell me, it's up to you.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: I'm sorry, it wasn't... Did I just say 2014? It was 2013.
Nathan Hergott: Okay. Okay. All right. So before we get into this, I know that there's a statement, which we haven't, that I've watched, where you attended the police station in Toronto. That's 52? Is that correct?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yes.
Nathan Hergott: Okay.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: I think it was Detective Hamilton. I honestly can't remember the other detectives' names. I don't know if it was [unclear: "an A"].
Nathan Hergott: And you met with him for...
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: I was going to say about an hour and a half.
Nathan Hergott: I was not.
Nathan Hergott: And at that point you had in your possession a photocopy of this document, and you went through and you read it out. And then following that, they started with the first name on the list, and they wanted to just try and get a little bit more detail of the involvement in each circumstance. Right? That's what I'd like to do today, and just give some more detail.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: It's a long list.
Nathan Hergott: It is. It is, but I think that you and I, I think we can get through it together.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah, we sure can. [unclear: "I've only been patient with me. I've got all the time to look. I'm not going anymore."] Because I'm physically comfortable. It's a nice chair, but...
Nathan Hergott: Yeah. Any time you need to get up and wander around a few, like I said, if you want to take a break, and have me leave, and just kind of stretch your legs and whatever the case may be, you go ahead. Okay? Maybe you have to use a washroom at any time or something.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: All right. Okay.
Nathan Hergott: Because like I said, I'm here as long as we need to be. Okay?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Okay.
Nathan Hergott: Okay. And I'm not pressuring you to stay longer than you want to, but I think that, I think if we just kind of sit down and go through this, like I said, we'll get through it together.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yes.
Nathan Hergott: I'm a pretty patient person, and I'm here to just listen to what you have to tell me, okay?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Okay.
Nathan Hergott: And like I said, I appreciate it. Okay. So, how about we just do this together? I'll just bring this over here. Is that okay?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Sure.
Nathan Hergott: Okay. So, I'm not going to have you read through this entire document, because I've already... you already did that, right?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: I have written it. I have read it. I have, you know, lived it. So...
Nathan Hergott: Yeah. Absolutely. So, Mr. Silcox.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yes.
Nathan Hergott: Okay. September of 2007.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah.
Nathan Hergott: Okay. And before you get into that, you have [unclear: "signed some kind of page numbers"], all that kind of stuff, on [unclear: "the city document" / "this document"]. So, we'll just go in order of how you've written it, okay? And I know that the detectives in Toronto kind of had this in their possession and just kind of got you to recall some things. I'm just going to keep it here because, I mean, you've already written this out. So, what's on here, we already know that. I just have some follow-up questions with regards to each circumstance. So, Mr. Silcox, it says here you're working a double shift, from three to seven, right?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: 3 p.m. to 7 a.m.
Nathan Hergott: Right. Okay. And this was at Caressant Care?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yes.
Nathan Hergott: In Woodstock?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yes.
Nathan Hergott: Okay. And tell me about your knowledge of James and your daily interactions during a shift with him.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: I didn't see him every time. He wasn't always my patient. I just knew from what people have said that he would grab the nurses' breasts, [unclear: "his prosthetics"], and he would say horribly inappropriate things about his wife. That now he was there, you know, he was going to fuck all of us. [unclear: "She was going to fuck all of us."] Just would say different things. And he did touch me inappropriately as well.
Nathan Hergott: And where was that?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: On the right.
Nathan Hergott: On your breast?
Nathan Hergott: Okay. And were you alone in the room and not wanting to?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yes.
Nathan Hergott: Did he have a roommate at all?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: [unclear: "Did you have a roommate?"] He must have. He wasn't in the same room. So, he was either in a double room or a [unclear: "four-year appointment" / "four-bed room"].
Nathan Hergott: Okay. Would you remember any other residents that would be roomed with him at that time?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: No. No.
Nathan Hergott: That's okay. What portion of the home was James in at this point?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: He was in the East Wing, South Wing, North Wing. He was in the North Wing. He was halfway down, and he was either in a double bed or a quadruple bed.
Nathan Hergott: And the diagnosis of his health at the time you were caring for him, do you remember?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: He was post hip surgery, and he had dementia.
Nathan Hergott: Do you remember how old he was, approximately?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: No, I don't. [unclear: "I didn't see his face."] [unclear: "And the baby?"]
Nathan Hergott: Yeah. Okay. And, sorry, he was not a diabetic?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Not a diabetic. Not a diabetic.
Nathan Hergott: And sorry, you said he had dementia?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yes.
Nathan Hergott: Okay, which we've also noted here as well, right?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yes.
Nathan Hergott: Okay. So tell me about the night. Was this the first person that you did this to?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: That I tried. Well, there were other people that I've done it to who didn't die.
Nathan Hergott: Prior to James?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Prior to James.
Nathan Hergott: Okay. And [unclear: "has he" / "is it"] documented on here?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: He's the first one who died.
Nathan Hergott: Right. Back here?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: But there's some other... people who didn't die.
Nathan Hergott: Right. So I can't read that first name.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: No, it's [unclear: "still later" / "further down"], yeah.
Nathan Hergott: Okay. So that was...
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: I mean, they're both... Oh, yeah. 2007.
Nathan Hergott: But that would be before James?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah.
Nathan Hergott: Okay. So was this your first attempt at overdosing these people on insulin?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yes. [unclear: "The Zola was." / possibly "Clotilde was."] And I didn't really want her to die. I just... I don't know. I was just angry and had this sense inside me that she might be a person that God wanted back with Him.
Nathan Hergott: And is that that feeling you're referring to, that you had in your stomach or something?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yes. Yes.
Nathan Hergott: Okay. Is that the point... and [unclear: "I need to get" / "I don't need to get"] off topic here, but the point where you had these feelings in your stomach, and almost that laughter after it happened...
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah.
Nathan Hergott: Is that the part that you didn't tell Dr. Kahn?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah.
Nathan Hergott: Okay. Okay. I just wanted to be clear on that.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: I told him about laughter in my stomach, but [unclear: "it's not" / "not"] the feeling that this might be the person that God wanted.
Nathan Hergott: Okay.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Okay, but I just found it so stupid.
Nathan Hergott: It's your feelings, right?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Mm-hmm. And so I felt like God wanted to use me. And he kept... Dr. Kahn kept asking me, do you think God chose me for a special purpose? I kept saying no, because that did not sound like a special purpose.
Nathan Hergott: No?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah. So... But yeah, I just had a sense after my marriage broke up that God was going to use me for something. And then after a while, I started to really wonder, after some of the murders, if it was God or if it was the devil fooling me.
Nathan Hergott: Did you feel like you were doing the right thing for these people?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: No. No. I felt like I've done what I was supposed to do, but it wasn't what was right for them.
Nathan Hergott: So, James, it was in the evening that this one took place, right?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yes.
Nathan Hergott: [unclear: "She says" / "It says"] you're at about 9:30.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah. About 9:30, I gave him a dose of 50 [unclear: "milligrams" / "units"] of insulin. [unclear: "It's" / "He's"] not diabetic. So, I went into a... I used a borrowed insulin [unclear: "pattern" / "pen"], borrowed insulin, and gave him an insulin shot. And at 3:30 the PSW... well, throughout the night he was yelling out, "I love you," and "I'm sorry." Not to me, but just because [unclear: "here I'm calling up in this room"]. And that's what he was calling [unclear: "us" / "out"]. And then at 3:30 the PSW just came to me and said that he was gone. So, I did what we're supposed to do. I [unclear: "went with him to his heart and chest" / "listened to his heart and chest"]. Called the doctor. Called family, because that's what they wanted. Family came in, because [unclear: "it wasn't for a while"]. Doctor came in and said that his cause of death was from an embolism due to his post-hip... He had a hip surgery. Doctor ruled an embolism due to post-hip surgery.
Nathan Hergott: [unclear: "Who do you think you were starting to tell me?" / "Who do you think he was saying sorry to?"]
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: I thought it might be his family. I really did. And when they came in and talked to me, they wanted to know if he said anything. So, I told them that... I was still ashamed. So ashamed.
Nathan Hergott: And [unclear: "did that be the family"] that kind of commended you for the work that you had done? How did that make you feel?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: It was absolutely awful.
Nathan Hergott: How did you deal with it?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: I just went home. Went to bed. You know, I felt awful. I thought it was awful. Maybe I fought with my girlfriend. Did some exercising, you know. Did some [unclear: "views" / "games"] on the computer and just tried to forget about it.
Nathan Hergott: Did you have a problem sleeping [unclear: "on ideal"]? Or did you?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Well, I was working [unclear: "tonight" / "nights"], so I was... I would say it's often [unclear: "turned a bit"], yeah. So I figured that... I didn't want to see the family again. So I tried to make sure I wasn't working while they came to pick up the stuff, and kind of...
Nathan Hergott: In what room? Do you remember a room number, or just...
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: No, it was down in [unclear: "our phone" / "North"].
Nathan Hergott: Where did you get the insulin from, for James? For Mr. Silcox. You said you had taken some insulin. Where did you get those?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: The insulin was kept in a fridge in the medication room. Insulin was kept in a fridge in the medication room, and extra pens were kept in the drawer. So you could just say, somebody who had, someone who was admitted and you needed a pen in a hurry. So you could just put the insulin in the pen, and put the needle on, and dial up the dose and give it...
Nathan Hergott: And how was that documented? To know that... so that Caressant Care would know that you were taking that insulin?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: They didn't keep [unclear: "trafficking funds" / "track of the pens"].
Nathan Hergott: So it was just something that was available for the nurses' use when they knew that it was appropriate for the certain patients.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yes. Now each patient has their own insulin.
Nathan Hergott: Right.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: And maybe somebody noticed... somebody may have noticed that a lot of insulin was missing. A lot was used, but I was always careful to use different people's...
Nathan Hergott: Different people's insulin.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Insulin, yes.
Nathan Hergott: And Mr. Silcox, then, where did you inject the insulin into his body?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: I'm not really sure. I'm going to say his arm or his torso.
Nathan Hergott: And did he know what was going on at that point?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Not really.
Nathan Hergott: Was he, was he a verbal patient? Like he could, could you communicate?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Oh yeah, he didn't really converse. He did a lot of yelling [unclear: "at him" / "out"]. I don't really remember him reacting when I gave it to him.
Nathan Hergott: So, he didn't react?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: I don't remember him reacting, no.
Nathan Hergott: Would he maybe just think it's a regular portion of his day? [unclear: "How is he doing"] the medications that he so required?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Probably.
Nathan Hergott: Yeah. Is there anything else you [unclear: "are going to" / "can"] remember about Mr. Silcox?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Um, his wife and daughter [unclear: "left him a lot" / "loved him a lot"].
Nathan Hergott: And how does that make you feel?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Crappy. Horrible. Um, he, yeah, like I said, he could be a bit of a handful. But, you know, he ate and drank normally. He took his pills when [unclear: "he told him to" / "you told him to"]. So, nothing else I can really remember about him. But this is, you know, nine years ago.
Nathan Hergott: It's a while ago. How long after, sorry, when did you break up with your, your husband?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: I broke up with him... Was it August 27th, 2007? Oh, no, no. I broke up with him in, uh, end of January, beginning of February 2007.
Nathan Hergott: Okay, so it was quite some time until September, until you actually...
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah.
Nathan Hergott: All right.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: By that time, I was in a new relationship with a woman.
Nathan Hergott: Okay. Who was that?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Her name was (former partner, name withheld).
Nathan Hergott: Um, did you ever disclose to her what you were doing?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: No, absolutely not.
Nathan Hergott: So, you just kind of went about your thing with Mr. Silcox.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah.
Nathan Hergott: Went home that day and did your kind of some exercise and computer games [unclear: "from sleep" / "and sleep"]. Did you work again that next day?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: I don't remember. I don't know.
Nathan Hergott: Do you remember who you would have been working with on that occasion?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: No, no, no, I'm sorry.
Nathan Hergott: Are you okay?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yes.
Nathan Hergott: No, you don't want to stretch?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: I just do a lot of [unclear: "visiting" / "fidgeting"].
Nathan Hergott: Okay, that's okay. Hey, you're not bothering me. I just want to make sure that you're comfortable.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah, I'm okay.
Nathan Hergott: Okay.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: If I need something, I'll do it.
Nathan Hergott: Okay. [unclear: "You got your."] Do you remember your supervisor would have been at that point?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Well, that would be (director of nursing, name withheld).
Nathan Hergott: That was the head nurse?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah. She was always, like, whoever was on as the nurse was the charge nurse.
Nathan Hergott: Okay.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: So I was the charge nurse. And at night, so as the charge nurse from 3 to 11, I was in charge of one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight PSWs. And I was, yeah. And then there was two other wings. And so at night, as the charge nurse, I was responsible to look after the [unclear: "RPM" / "RPN"] on the other side. [unclear: "I see a resource for her."] There were four PSWs on that side and four PSWs on my side. So nine people.
Nathan Hergott: All right.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: And this is probably, of course, she was around the night.
Nathan Hergott: Okay. She was with you?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah. Yeah. So she's who we all answer to.
Nathan Hergott: Okay.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: She was currently the executive director for us. I don't remember her last name.
Nathan Hergott: Oh, wow.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: I'm sorry. [unclear: "I'm called again. I have to ask her to leave."]
Nathan Hergott: That's fine.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: I don't remember.
Nathan Hergott: So as far as Mr. Silcox goes, then, [unclear: "decides" / "besides"] what you were feeling in your stomach...
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Okay.
Nathan Hergott: And besides that, you thought that this was a purpose that you were given [unclear: "on your relationship"] after breaking up with your husband, right?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah.
Nathan Hergott: Thank you. Thank you. You indicated that he wasn't a very nice man.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: No, he wasn't.
Nathan Hergott: Is that a portion of what happened?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: I don't know. I wonder if that's a portion of how I chose him, and afterwards I did feel a release, and a release, like a release of pressure.
Nathan Hergott: Because throughout this document, and as we go through it, a lot of these people, you kind of describe them as not very nice people.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah.
Nathan Hergott: Right?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah.
Nathan Hergott: So I'm not sure if that's a tendency or pattern that we see, as far as, is that why you chose those people?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: No, it might be, but I also know I just felt like they were the ones.
Nathan Hergott: Right.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: I had a feeling inside that they were the ones.
Nathan Hergott: Before you injected insulin into Mr. Silcox, was it a spur-of-the-moment thing? Had you thought about it then, when you reported for duty at 3 o'clock in the afternoon?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: I started thinking about it about 6 at night, I think.
Nathan Hergott: And do you remember who the pronouncing doctor would have been?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: No.
Nathan Hergott: How does that process work?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: That process, the way it worked was, a person [unclear: "has no" / "had no"] vital signs. Nurse goes in with the stethoscope, listens for one minute. If there's no heartbeat, no lung sounds, nurse goes and calls the doctor on call. There was also a sheet that we had to fill out. They thought it was a coroner's case. In this case, I don't believe they thought it was. And then family is called. And the doctor may wait to come in and pronounce in the morning. Family can come in and visit the bodies any time. So then the PSWs would get the body ready.
Nathan Hergott: Okay. So prior to the doctor [unclear: "announcing" / "pronouncing"] in the morning, the family could come in and spend time?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yes.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: So the PSWs would just clean them up, put on clean britches, and clean up the bed and stuff.
Nathan Hergott: Right. So you said, you said, Mr. Silcox, you said [unclear: "we didn't think" / "they didn't think"] it was a coroner's case. Who's [unclear: "in front of that thing" / "in charge of that thing"]?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: [unclear: "I guess I'm even the royal week, in the royal week."]
Nathan Hergott: Okay, so would that be just a decision that you were trying to make?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: No, there's a form on the computer, and you go down through it, and if it says, if you tick off anything that says yes, you know it's a coroner's.
Nathan Hergott: Okay, all right. But you would have clicked off those boxes yourself?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yes.
Nathan Hergott: Okay, so obviously knowing that you had done this to Mr. Silcox, did you feel that you wouldn't click yes, that attention wouldn't be drawn to you?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: You know, I honestly can't remember if he was a coroner's case. You know, he might have been.
Nathan Hergott: [unclear: "Now, would you tell anything?"]
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: I would, even though I did this to these people, when I did their... let's see, it's phrased as, "Does anyone have a reason to believe that this death was not natural?"
Nathan Hergott: Right.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: So, yeah, I would click, I wouldn't click that one [unclear: "if I hadn't written anything"]. Yeah, you're right.
Nathan Hergott: All right, and I just wanted to clarify that.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah, yeah.
Nathan Hergott: That was just a question. Okay, anything else you can think about Mr. Silcox?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: No.
Nathan Hergott: Okay. Maurice. How did you pronounce Maurice's last name?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Granat.
Nathan Hergott: Is it Granat? Okay, so tell me a little bit about Maurice. This says that this occurred in September or October of [unclear: "2020"; the document's date is 2007].
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: [unclear: "Sort of compassionate."]
Nathan Hergott: And this was at Caressant Care?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah.
Nathan Hergott: Okay, tell me a little bit about your interaction with Maurice.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: He was another [unclear: "woman" / "one"] who liked to grab [unclear: "breath synapses" / "breasts and asses"]. He was sometimes a patient of mine. See, at that time, I wasn't, I didn't have a [unclear: "fat" / "set"] floor that I worked on. I worked on all the different floors [unclear: "of the nurse"], because I was filling in. So, he was... one afternoon I was working with him, and he did grab me. And, again, I got that feeling inside that this is his time to go. So, I gave him an overdose of [unclear: "this one" / "insulin"] after supper. And, uh, I believe... And I believe [unclear: "she" / "he"] died the next day.
Nathan Hergott: And what was your shift that... do you remember the shift you were working at that point?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: [unclear: "It wasn't 3 p.m. without us."]
Nathan Hergott: 3 p.m.?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah, [unclear: "2 p.m." / "3 p.m."], 11 p.m.
Nathan Hergott: So what happened?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: He died when I wasn't there.
Nathan Hergott: Okay. And he was known for, it says, you're [unclear: "grabbing this task breast" / "grabbing the staff's breasts"], and that's his...
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah.
Nathan Hergott: Okay. And do you remember who you had been working with at that point?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: No.
Nathan Hergott: Okay. And do you remember where Maurice was within Caressant Care?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah. He [unclear: "had found" / "was down"] the North Wing. I think he was in a double room on the right-hand side.
Nathan Hergott: Okay.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah.
Nathan Hergott: And do you remember who his roommates were then, at all?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: No, I don't. But I do remember that when he started going down, [unclear: "until after the uniform overdosed" / "after the insulin overdose"], they moved him to the [unclear: "highest care room" / "high-care room"] right by the [unclear: "end or his desk" / "nurses' desk"].
Nathan Hergott: Okay. And at what point of the day do you think that you... Sorry. I think you said the story, but just to confirm, what time of the day do you think it was when he had injected him?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: When I injected him? It was afternoon. I think it was [unclear: "4:35" / "4:30"], 5:30.
Nathan Hergott: Okay. Fine. And what was his reaction to receiving the [unclear: "incident" / "insulin"]?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Again, it was just kind of like, oh, okay. And he said, [unclear: "the doctor wanted to know if I didn't show up. That's what I usually say."]
Nathan Hergott: And was he able to communicate? Was he verbal?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: He was verbal. He could converse. Not totally. But he could say something, yeah.
Nathan Hergott: Okay. And did he question [unclear: "his vitamin drop" / "it"] at all?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: No.
Nathan Hergott: And he passed away the next day.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah.
Nathan Hergott: Okay. So, being that you weren't there when he had passed away, you wouldn't have been the one checking the boxes.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: That's right.
Nathan Hergott: So, do you know, by chance, what nurse would have been responsible for [unclear: "her neck" / "him next"]?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: No, I don't. No.
Nathan Hergott: Okay. Did you ever have any concerns that he didn't pass away while you were working, and that, you know, a physician may have arrived?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: No, I know I didn't. Well, yes, I did a little bit. I always wondered if they'd find the site where I gave the shot, and something, you know, they'd be in an investigation. I always wondered that.
Nathan Hergott: And even though it passed through your mind, did you continue on about your duties?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yep.
Nathan Hergott: And do you remember what part of the body he would have been injected in?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Ah, maybe [unclear: "somebody" / "his tummy"]. Because [unclear: "back when"] he didn't have a lot of body fat.
Nathan Hergott: Maurice didn't?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: He didn't, no. And when you give a subcutaneous injection, it goes down to the body fat.
Nathan Hergott: And you documented that he was a cancer patient?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yes.
Nathan Hergott: Do you remember what type of cancer he had?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: I think it was prostate.
Nathan Hergott: Prostate?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Prostate, yeah.
Nathan Hergott: Okay. And what was the... what did the outcome hold for his future, as far as the cancer in his body?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: [unclear: "He was five." / "He was fine."]
Nathan Hergott: How old do you think Maurice was?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Seventy-five, seventy-six.
Nathan Hergott: That's right. He was in a double room?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah, I believe he was in a double room, yeah.
Nathan Hergott: Do you remember when you were working with that day? Same supervisor, or did they [unclear: "not try to convert the head nurse"]?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Sorry.
Nathan Hergott: That's okay. It's a long time ago. I mean, obviously it's a significant event in your life, but it's a long time ago. I'm not concerned that you can't remember every question that I ask you. If you can do the best that you can, that's all I can ask for.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Okay.
Nathan Hergott: Anything else you can remember about Maurice at all?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Not really, no.
Nathan Hergott: Okay. Do you know if [unclear: "you used the coroner's case" / "it was a coroner's case"]?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: I don't know if [unclear: "you used the coroner's case. I don't know if he was quite experienced."]
Nathan Hergott: [unclear: "Who left Maurice? Who did you know of him?" / "Who loved Maurice? Who did he have?"]
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: He had friends that were coming [unclear: "with him" / "to see him"], that were like family to him. [unclear: "A man in the land that followed him."]
Nathan Hergott: And how did it make you feel when Maurice passed away?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Nothing.
Nathan Hergott: And what happened to Maurice?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: I just, well, I wasn't there when he passed away. I didn't work that day.
Nathan Hergott: Do you remember if you worked the next day?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: I might have. I know when I found out that he died, I'd often see [unclear: "how long it took him to figure out enough for the best to see what it got him" / "read through the notes to see what they said"].
Nathan Hergott: Okay. [unclear: "And he's getting a point out to fix it with."]
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah, no problem. Whatever you need.
Nathan Hergott: So, after you found out he had passed, you kind of read through the documents and...
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah.
Nathan Hergott: Do you remember seeing it, and it kind of said, oh, no...
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: No.
Nathan Hergott: This isn't a good thing for me here?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: No. And even if I had, I couldn't have altered them.
Nathan Hergott: You could have, or couldn't?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Could not.
Nathan Hergott: Okay. The next person on your list is Helen Matheson.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah.
Nathan Hergott: Okay. So, you go from September or October to 2007...
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah.
Nathan Hergott: And then Helen was 2011.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah.
Nathan Hergott: What happened between those years?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: I think you'll see that they... Those are some attempts.
Nathan Hergott: Attempts.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: [unclear: "No way you're going on it."] Yeah.
Nathan Hergott: Okay. Okay. And we'll get to those.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah.
Nathan Hergott: Okay.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Helen, I remember a lot about. She was very quiet, very [unclear: "determined" / "demented"]. She seemed to be waiting to die. Again, I had that feeling that, you know, this was the one. And I made a bit of a fuss about her that night, because she was very [unclear: "luscious" / "lucid"]. And we talked about how much she liked blueberry pie and ice cream. So, on my break, I went to a [unclear: "Hallmark" / "store"]. I got a small blueberry pie and some ice cream, [unclear: "very high in tonight's spring"], and brought it to her. And she had [unclear: "two or four bikes" / "two or four bites"]. And then that night, I overdosed her. Because like I said, I had that feeling that it was her time to go.
Nathan Hergott: What do you mean by that? [unclear: "I didn't think" / "You didn't think"] she was towards the end of her life at that point?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: No, that she was the [unclear: "first one to go there" / "next one to go"].
Nathan Hergott: And that was in your mind, in your stomach? Where was that feeling?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: In my chest area. After I did it, I got that laughter.
Nathan Hergott: When would you feel that laughter? Would you feel it right after you injected it, or once the person passed away?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Both.
Nathan Hergott: And Helen, [unclear: "did you hear"] that she wasn't a diabetic?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: No.
Nathan Hergott: Just out of curiosity, how much [unclear: "influence" / "insulin"] would it take to kill someone that wasn't a diabetic?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: I don't know.
Nathan Hergott: You don't know that?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: No.
Nathan Hergott: So it was kind of [unclear: "hitting that" / "hit and miss"]. You didn't know that as a nurse, that this amount, or?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: No, there is no set amount.
Nathan Hergott: Okay.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: I just simply don't know that answer. Yeah, there is no set amount.
Nathan Hergott: Okay. So different people would react differently to different amounts, is that fair to say?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah.
Nathan Hergott: And would it obviously make a difference if they were diabetic or not a diabetic?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah. I believe she died the next day.
Nathan Hergott: And it said, [unclear: "I don't know if you're the doctor to prepare her to be positive, and she died two days later"].
Nathan Hergott: And do you remember how much insulin that you had given Helen?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: 60? I don't know.
Nathan Hergott: And where would you have gotten that from?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: From the same [unclear: "slide you always get" / "place I always get it"].
Nathan Hergott: Do you remember where Helen was in Caressant Care?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yes, she was on the South Wing, and probably about four doors down from the nursing station, in a double room on the right-hand side. If you were facing the end, she was on the right-hand side.
Nathan Hergott: You don't say a lot of negative things about Helen here. Did you get along with her okay? Did she ever do anything to harm you, or?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: No, no, she was very quiet. It was just, I felt that feeling that she was [unclear: "next to her time to go" / "next, it was her time to go"].
Nathan Hergott: And her health at that point? [unclear: "was for diagnosis" / "What was her diagnosis?"]
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: She was, um, I couldn't tell you her diagnosis, just that she didn't get out of [unclear: "there" / "bed"] a lot, and she had to be fed her food, fed her pills. So she was near her end of life.
Nathan Hergott: What [unclear: "would you think Helen was" / "age do you think Helen was"] when this happened?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: It was about eighty-five or eighty-six.
Nathan Hergott: And do you remember what doctor would have [unclear: "removed there" / "pronounced"] when she passed away two days later?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: I don't think so.
Nathan Hergott: You don't think so? [unclear: "She wouldn't be"] which doctor would have [unclear: "removed it" / "pronounced"]?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: No. Once I gave the insulin over there, unless I was there for the shift [unclear: "of diet" / "they died"], it kind of lay low and didn't, you know, have anything to do with them.
Nathan Hergott: So if you issued an insulin injection to somebody, Helen, for instance, do you remember where Helen was injected?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Probably her arm.
Nathan Hergott: So, do you remember if she had a reaction at all?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: A reaction?
Nathan Hergott: You know, if she confronted you in what you were doing at all? Was she able to...
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: [unclear: "She messed it out."]
Nathan Hergott: Was she used to getting insulin or needles?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: I don't know if she was.
Nathan Hergott: But she wasn't combative, or did she confront you and ask you what you were doing?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: No.
Nathan Hergott: And you said once you gave them their insulin, did you...?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: I just kind of... I tried to stay away from it. Sometimes I was very interested to see what was happening. I would just try to stay away from it.
Nathan Hergott: Would you ever go back into their rooms while they were still alive, to see how they were progressing through the...
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: If they were my charge, yes, I had to.
Nathan Hergott: Even though you had [unclear: "had to take their lives" / "tried to take their lives"]. And you would... What kind of symptoms would they show? Is it different for everyone?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Well, usually they'd get very diaphoretic, red. They could lose consciousness. They'd shake. So, one person had a seizure. I think it was this one person. Two people stroked right out.
Nathan Hergott: Right after receiving the...
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Not right after, but they stroked [unclear: "ahead" / "out"]. Over time. And actually three people, because [unclear: "they really came stroked as well. Which are still not safe."]
Nathan Hergott: Okay. Okay. November 2011. Mary Zurawinski?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah.
Nathan Hergott: [unclear: "I recall when I heard that last time that you pronounced?"]
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah.
Nathan Hergott: And this was at Caressant Care?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah.
Nathan Hergott: Okay. And you said that she wasn't a diabetic, but she had dementia?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: That's right. But she could talk in between, and she had a lot... Mary could.
Nathan Hergott: Yeah.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: She was feisty.
Nathan Hergott: Was she?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah. She [unclear: "didn't hurt the nurse in her eyes" / "didn't hurt anyone"]. And she was just very open and feisty. And one night she said, you know, "I'm going to die tonight."
Nathan Hergott: [unclear: "Mary's with us?"]
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah. And I said, "Oh." And she said, "Yeah, why don't you get me into the death bed so I can die." And I said, "Are you sure?" And she said, "Yeah, put me to bed. I'm going to die." So, I said, "Okay." Then I went to the other nurse that was working with me. And she said, "Oh, okay. Well, let's put her in [unclear: "side the care room" / "the palliative care room"], if that's what you want." So, we did. And then I thought, well, she must be the next one. I had a feeling [unclear: "if I had to meet you"], she must be the next one. Because she [unclear: "was safe" / "said"] she was going to die, but there's no signs she was going to die. So I gave her [unclear: "an hour-guess an influence" / "a large dose of insulin"]. She became palliative, and she died [unclear: "It's been a couple of days" / "a couple of days later"]. [1:04:12 to 1:04:50: Whisper gives "Thank you." and then "Which one has the vodka in it? Which one has the vodka in it? No answer from him." This does not fit the interview and may be machine output over silence or background sound; it is shown here only so that nothing is dropped. Confirm by listening.]
Nathan Hergott: Um, where was that in relation to where she was? Where was Mary [unclear: "and Kristina" / "Zurawinski"]?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: She was down [unclear: "in the counseling, couple of rooms" / "a couple of rooms"] down from the, uh, down from the nurses' office. And, uh, she, yeah, we did put her in the palliative bed.
Nathan Hergott: And would that be a decision that you would make, or someone else would have to make?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Together we made it.
Nathan Hergott: But a supervisor wouldn't have to say, okay, go ahead?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: No, we had enough autonomy that if we thought someone was, um, palliative, we could call the doctor, tell them what was going on. We would move the person to the palliative bed and get orders for palliative care.
Nathan Hergott: And do you remember how much insulin you would have given Mary?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: I think she may have been the first person that I did [unclear: "roll an act in short action too" / "long-acting and short-acting"]... [unclear: "they roll and act and get short acts in two together"; probably "the long-acting and short-acting insulin together"], I think.
Nathan Hergott: And can you just, what, besides the actual obvious in the title of it, the actual drug itself, long-act and short-act, I think, what was the biggest difference between the two?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: One drops your blood sugar right away. The other starts working through your body and [unclear: "strapping" / "dropping"] it gradually over long periods of time, and just keeps [unclear: "strapping" / "dropping"] it.
Nathan Hergott: And what would the combination of those two do together? Did you know [unclear: "her" / "or"]?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: I didn't know for sure, but if you were to do it, you'd be much stronger than just the short-act.
Nathan Hergott: Right. Which makes sense.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah. You wouldn't know more than I would, but...
Nathan Hergott: Do you remember where you injected Mary?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Probably her arm. Yeah.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: I told her, I told her it was for her pain.
Nathan Hergott: And, you know, she was in that single room, in the double room?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Well, we had moved her from the double room to the palliative care room, right [unclear: "near her corner" / "around the corner"] from the nurses' office.
Nathan Hergott: So, where did you inject her? In the palliative bed, or?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: In the palliative bed.
Nathan Hergott: And she had vocalized to you that she thought that she was going to die that night.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah. So, I said, okay, she must be the one, when I gave the insulin. I got that feeling inside, and the laughter.
Nathan Hergott: Has she ever said something to you before about wanting to die?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Not like that. No, she was like, "I want to die, I want to die, I want to die tonight. [unclear: "I'm leaving bed" / "Put me in bed"] and I'm going to die."
Nathan Hergott: And that was new to you?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yes.
Nathan Hergott: Do you remember what shift you were working?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Afternoon, three to eleven.
Nathan Hergott: Okay. And about what time do you think you would have moved her to the palliative bed, and?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Um, might have been after supper, [unclear: "since I was seven" / "so about seven"].
Nathan Hergott: And [unclear: "Mary ever dying to harm you" / "did Mary ever try to harm you"], or?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: No. She was fine. She was [unclear: "funky" / "spunky"] and outspoken.
Nathan Hergott: Do you remember being present when she died? And therefore probably wouldn't be a part of checking the boxes.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: No, no, I didn't [unclear: "know about the checker" / "do the checking"].
Nathan Hergott: Who was there to see Mary on a regular basis?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: I don't know.
Nathan Hergott: Do you know if she had family?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: I don't know.
Nathan Hergott: All right. Mary being... we'll refer to her as your fourth victim.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah.
Nathan Hergott: That you were successful, and there was no [unclear: "injections" / "suspicion"]. How did your emotions start to feel, continuing?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: I kept having a lot of guilt. A lot of guilt. Mary, well, as you'll see, after Mary [unclear: "moved by us and after by us"], there was a period of two years where I didn't do it. Three years where I didn't do it.
Nathan Hergott: What was going on in your life at that point?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: I was trying very, very hard to get close to God, to make sure this wasn't Him, and to just live my life, read the Bible, go to church, and not do that, because I didn't want to do it anymore. So I tried very hard. I was still using a little bit.
Nathan Hergott: A little more?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah.
Nathan Hergott: And alcohol?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah.
Nathan Hergott: What was your [unclear: "great choice" / "drink of choice"]?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Right. [unclear: "I shouldn't say it like that but I think it sounds like it's right. Right Bailey? Yeah. Yeah. Pop a ride and pop down some water. Brian, pop down some water. Yeah. Yeah, Brian, water."; probably naming a drink mixed with water, possibly "rye and water"; speakers in this exchange uncertain]
Nathan Hergott: And, uh, typically, how much would you drink in a week?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: [unclear: "No, weeks" / "On weekends"], probably about eight or nine.
Nathan Hergott: Yeah. Like shots of [unclear: "Brian" / "rye"], or...
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Uh, drinks. So, I don't know how [unclear: "far I'm gonna shot" / "many shots"].
Nathan Hergott: Okay. I think you're gonna go by shots. I know if there's your drinks. So, like, three times nine, twenty-seven. So, like, you'd be drinking triples.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah.
Nathan Hergott: All right. How would that make you feel in combination with the [unclear: "Hydramore" / "Hydromorph"] or something?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Uh, I never did it with the [unclear: "Hydramore" / "Hydromorph"]. No, it was [unclear: "the other one of the other" / "one or the other"].
Nathan Hergott: [unclear: "The other one of the other" / "One or the other"]. Okay. So, the booze is more just for [unclear: "one I didn't have" / "when you didn't have"] the [unclear: "Hydramore" / "Hydromorph"].
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: And if I was going out, but I think, well, it was people. I always went out mostly by myself and just... I just [unclear: "scratched one ticket and took booze" / "stayed home and took booze"]. Yeah. I would drink and [unclear: "do my specialist"].
Nathan Hergott: Yeah. Um, as significant and disturbing as this [unclear: "made me" / "may be"], the people that are gonna hear this and learn about this, obviously there's a lot of families that were [unclear: "in contact" / "impacted"].
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yes.
Nathan Hergott: And [unclear: "speak to"]. Um, although this is important, and I hate to classify it into different areas, but these weren't necessarily violent deaths. Like, how did... do you think these people died peacefully? Did they struggle at all?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Um, all the people you've talked about so far [unclear: "got" / "died"] peacefully, in my opinion. And I am sorry. I'm sorry for what the families went through at the time. And I'm extremely sorry for what they're going [unclear: "to do" / "to go through"].
Nathan Hergott: If you can say something to them, what would you say to them?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: What can you say to them? What can you say to me that would matter? I'm sorry isn't enough. I should have gotten help sooner. I took something from you that was precious to [unclear: "me" / "you"], that was [unclear: "facing too soon" / "taken too soon"]. I honestly believed at the time that God wanted me to do it, but I know now that's not true. And if I could take it back, if I could get help sooner, that would have been [unclear: "the next story" / "a different story"].
Nathan Hergott: I admire you for everything. Whether it took one year, two years, ten years, whatever it took for you to finally get help, that's a big step.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Thank you.
Nathan Hergott: Right? I mean, you could have been in this situation and taken this to your grave.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yes.
Nathan Hergott: And who would have known? Right?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: I was told to do it by a lawyer.
Nathan Hergott: What's that?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Take it to my grave. [unclear: "I'm not telling you that."]
Nathan Hergott: So you've confided in lawyers a long time ago?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: A long time ago, yes.
Nathan Hergott: Was it after all of these people?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: It was in 2014, before I...
Nathan Hergott: And before you went to Welland?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yes, to Welland.
Nathan Hergott: Yeah, to the rehab centre. So you spoke to a lawyer?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: She was the one who told me to get help. I need to go to [unclear: "that" / "the washroom"].
Nathan Hergott: Just for the record, and so it's documented, I have 6:26. Let's take a break, okay?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yes, thank you.
Nathan Hergott: Cool. [unclear: "Want to go where you're going?"]
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah. [1:13:40 to 1:14:00: break; Whisper gives only "Thank you." at 1:13:51.]
Nathan Hergott: All set? Do you [unclear: "have" / "need"] anything else at all?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: No.
Nathan Hergott: Are you sure?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: No. I had a caramel.
Nathan Hergott: Oh, did you? Perfect. Just for the record, I have 6:30, and [unclear: "I will just resume anything in the bank" / "we'll just resume the interview"]. Okay. Okay?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yep.
Nathan Hergott: Okay. Are you going to carry on?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yep.
Nathan Hergott: So, Gladys, we'll take this to November 2011 at Caressant Care. It says [unclear: "your"] Gladys was a type 2 diabetic and had dementia.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: [unclear: "Your dementia."]
Nathan Hergott: Did she?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah.
Nathan Hergott: How old do you think Gladys was?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: 92.
Nathan Hergott: 92? Okay. And where was Gladys within Caressant Care?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: East Wing, three doors down from the main desk, in a double room.
Nathan Hergott: Do you remember her roommates at all?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: No.
Nathan Hergott: And obviously these are repetitive questions. You might remember some of the roommates as they go along here, so that's why I just keep asking the same questions. Tell me a little bit about Gladys. What did she like when you cared for her?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Well, when I first started caring for her, she was walking and talking, and she had quite the spirit. She once punched a man because she [unclear: "told her"], the nurse is telling one of the gentlemen, "No, you can't push your wife around. You have to come with us." And she turned around and she said, "You can't treat a woman like that." Boom. And hit the man.
Nathan Hergott: And hit the man.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: So then we're all in a state of trying to keep them from fighting with each other, and trying to keep them from hurting [unclear: "up" / "each other"].
Nathan Hergott: Right.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yes. She was very spunky, but she went downhill fast. Eventually she had dementia, didn't take her pills as well, didn't eat well, very stubborn woman. And as always, one evening I just got that red-surging feeling that she was going to be the one, and gave her insulin overdose.
Nathan Hergott: Did you ever get that feeling outside of work?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: No, never. No.
Nathan Hergott: Did you ever get that feeling going to work, knowing that something was going to happen that shift?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: No, it's happened at work.
Nathan Hergott: So if I were to use the phrase "spur of the moment", would it be something to do with just... how did that feeling come on?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah, I guess you could say spur of the moment, but it was... [unclear: "Is usually start" / "It would usually start"] happening, you know, focused on one patient, and then I would feel that red surging, which is what made me think it was [unclear: "awesome" / "God"]. Which I am so embarrassed.
Nathan Hergott: Like I said, I'm not here to judge you.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: I know, I know.
Nathan Hergott: You explained that it was difficult towards the end, giving her her pills. Do you remember [unclear: "where you were working with the shift" / "what shift you were working"] when you injected Gladys?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: I believe I was working, I was either working nights or days.
Nathan Hergott: Okay.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Because I know it was close to the end of my shift.
Nathan Hergott: Okay.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: And I did it, and the person who came on the next shift, I think it was night. So the person who came on the next shift checked her all over, and started to call the doctor, and had her made palliative, and started to run the pain regimen, and...
Nathan Hergott: Do you remember how much insulin you gave her?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: No, I don't.
Nathan Hergott: Do you remember if it was long or short, or [unclear: "a mess" / "a mix"]?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Probably at that point, I think it was [unclear: "giving him a million meds" / "giving them a mix"].
Nathan Hergott: Okay. So once Mary was the first person, you said that you gave her the long- and the short-acting [unclear: "pain" / "insulin"]?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yes.
Nathan Hergott: And then following that, it was...
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Everything. Anyone from there forward.
Nathan Hergott: And that was, again, at Caressant Care. Was that [unclear: "implementation" / "insulin"] from the same location as you always would?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah.
Nathan Hergott: Are there cameras in the [unclear: "address" / "med room"]?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: No.
Nathan Hergott: Nothing at all?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: No.
Nathan Hergott: So, you could access whatever you like, and...
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Well, not whatever you like, but yeah. But the [unclear: "information" / "insulin"], because they didn't even keep track of it. The [unclear: "influence" / "insulin"], yeah, the [unclear: "influence" / "insulin"] [unclear: "needs to get volume, needs to get, like, injectable volume"]. You know, it was fairly easy to take meds from there.
Nathan Hergott: Um, and we'll get into it. I'm sorry, I was going to ask you a question, but we didn't get [unclear: "done really"]. Do you know how long it took for Gladys to die?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: I believe she died the next afternoon, or that afternoon.
Nathan Hergott: And do you know if you were present for that?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: No, I was not.
Nathan Hergott: So, therefore, [unclear: "I've never been" / "you'd never have been"] a part of the process of the pronouncing and checking the boxes.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: No, no.
Nathan Hergott: When someone's dying, it seems like it takes longer than it does, if you're around, if you know what I mean.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: I do.
Nathan Hergott: Yeah. [unclear: "I'm sorry that you know."]
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Thank you.
Nathan Hergott: As far as Gladys goes, do you remember if you worked the next day, to learn about her death?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: I think I worked two days later. I think I worked the day after her death, whenever that was.
Nathan Hergott: What would play through your mind on your days where you inject? So, Gladys, for instance, you inject her, you worked [unclear: "nice at that" / "nights after that"], 11 till 7. You did this at 5 o'clock. You go home and carry on about one, two, three days off, whatever the case was. What was [unclear: "fun" / "going"] through your mind on what it was like? Were you thinking, when's Gladys gonna die?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: I would wonder if she had died. I would wonder, you know, if this would be the time I would get caught. You know, what was I going to... But, you know, what was I going... Every time I walked in after somebody passed away, I always wondered if this day I'm going to get caught.
Nathan Hergott: What kind of consequences played through your head, okay? Like, if you... [unclear: "Damn, I'm caught and you gave it up."] What kind of consequences did you think you were going to face if that were [unclear: "intended" / "the case"]?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: I think back in 2011: fired, jail, no more nursing [unclear: "lessons" / "licence"]. That's exactly what I'm looking at now. Although I took myself out instead of being fired, but... jail and no more nursing [unclear: "lessons" / "licence"].
Nathan Hergott: As far as in 2011, though, when did those feelings start to, say, in your mind, like, I wonder if this is the time I'm going to get caught?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: [unclear: "I've been right at it."] Probably every time. Yeah, probably every time.
Nathan Hergott: Okay.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah.
Nathan Hergott: Okay. And, Gladys, do you think... Did she have a reaction when you injected her?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: She [unclear: "followed" / "fought"] a little bit.
Nathan Hergott: Did she?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah.
Nathan Hergott: What do you mean by that?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: She struggled around, so I kind of [unclear: "fought on her leg that I could do"] where she couldn't reach me and pinch me.
Nathan Hergott: Would that be something difficult if you were giving her medication?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah. Scratch.
Nathan Hergott: Do you know what they're most... They're common medications.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Oh, yeah. Yeah. And, like, even the PSWs who had to change her products, sometimes she'd fight them and scratch them and pinch them and twist their hair and, yeah.
Nathan Hergott: And do you think that played into any part of your actions with Gladys, particularly with Gladys?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: I don't know. I think some of the, um... I think some of the, you know, the stubbornness with stuff and, yeah, just kind of, okay, you're the next one to go. Again, there was always that red surging that I identified as God telling me, this is what, you know, this is how you work for me.
Nathan Hergott: Did you ever try and fight that feeling?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Later on, as you'll see.
Nathan Hergott: But when you got that feeling in your chest and stomach, would you directly go to get the insulin?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Pretty much, as soon as I had time with the rest of my job.
Nathan Hergott: How many patients would you be caring for during one shift?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Thirty-two.
Nathan Hergott: You'd be responsible for all thirty-two?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah, thirty-two.
Nathan Hergott: So each nurse would have thirty-two?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: A nurse, a registered [unclear: "correctional" / "practical"] nurse, a registered [unclear: "correctional" / "practical"] nurse.
Nathan Hergott: Okay. So that's a busy day?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Mm-hmm.
Nathan Hergott: And I know we talked about it earlier, but again, just to revisit that, do you think that's something that's played into this?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: I think so.
Nathan Hergott: The stresses of the job?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Oh, yeah. I definitely think so.
Nathan Hergott: Well, you had a lot going on in your life.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah, I definitely think that stress played into it. Maybe it made my mind more susceptible to stuff.
Nathan Hergott: Did you ever go to work intoxicated by alcohol or drugs at all?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: No.
Nathan Hergott: Did you ever use at work?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yes.
Nathan Hergott: [unclear: "Dr. Mars?" / "Hydromorph?"]
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yes.
Nathan Hergott: [unclear: "Awesome." / "How often?"]
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Probably once or twice a week.
Nathan Hergott: Yeah. Yeah. And when you were at Caressant Care, where would you have [unclear: "been at Dr. Mars" / "gotten the Hydromorph"]?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Oh, there's a number of ways you can get one.
Nathan Hergott: Right.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: You can sign off that somebody got there... sign off that somebody [unclear: "went to PRM" / "got a PRN"], and take it instead.
Nathan Hergott: Okay.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: You can take them the regular medication, and if they're not able to identify it, take it instead.
Nathan Hergott: Okay.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: You can take the regular medication that's in capsules, and if they are able to identify it, open the capsule, take the stuff out, put the capsule back together again, give them this capsule, take it yourself.
Nathan Hergott: And how would you typically [unclear: "adjust to Dr. Mars" / "ingest the Hydromorph"]?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: I just [unclear: "followed" / "swallowed"] it. I never shot it. I never [unclear: "smeared" / "snorted"] it.
Nathan Hergott: Yeah. Okay. Okay. And do you remember how much you gave Gladys? Of the insulin?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: [unclear: "Of the youth one."] I think I gave her [unclear: "80-60" / "80, 60"], I think.
Nathan Hergott: And her reaction, after she kind of pinched and struggled a little bit with you?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: She relaxed, and then by the time the next nurse came on she was red, she was sweating, she was incoherent. Her vital signs were all down.
Nathan Hergott: And how do you know that?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Because I was just leaving when the next nurse came on, and she said something [unclear: "on the quadrant" / "about Gladys"]. She said, "Come with me, we have to go check on [unclear: "the quadrant" / "Gladys"]." Yes, I actually helped her move [unclear: "quadrants to the side of the pyramid" / "her to the palliative room"]. [unclear: "I peered over my gourds the whole time." / "I was on my guard the whole time."] But she was going to say it was something I did.
Nathan Hergott: Was she still able to communicate on that one?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: No.
Nathan Hergott: Do you remember what nurse that was, that you moved?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: [unclear: a first name (withheld) or "Ah", then "I don't remember."] If I sit for a minute, if I sat for a minute, I could probably remember.
Nathan Hergott: Well, if it comes to you. Might just be one of those things that pops in your head in a few moments, right?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yes. (Nurse, surname withheld.)
Nathan Hergott: (Nurse, name withheld)?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yes.
Nathan Hergott: She's still there?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yes, as far as I know.
Nathan Hergott: Okay. Mrs. Helen Young. So this is where you have a bit of a gap again.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yes.
Nathan Hergott: From 2011 to 2013, with your successful injections.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yes.
Nathan Hergott: But there wasn't even any attempt yet?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: No. In November 2011, I came home from a cruise of the Caribbean, and I was feeling guilty. I was feeling [unclear: "banned" / "bad"]. I was feeling confused. [unclear: "I was feeling like I had just been the one."] I feel like I just didn't want to do it anymore. I feel like if I could somehow connect with God strongly enough, that I wouldn't do it anymore. And so I spent a lot of time reading my Bible and praying and deciding I just wasn't going to do it anymore. So I had the odd urge to do it, but I resisted, by going to church, reading my Bible, praying. And [unclear: "in times I didn't believe them, they didn't want me to do it anymore" / "in time I believed that He didn't want me to do it anymore"].
Nathan Hergott: [unclear: "What's your treatment to that one?"]
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: What was that?
Nathan Hergott: Oh, okay. So as far as fighting off that, would you still have that feeling, that burning feeling?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Sometimes, but I did a lot of praying about it, and I just did a lot of praying, reading my Bible, getting very involved in my faith, getting very involved in my church.
Nathan Hergott: And obviously, with what you've told us so far, it helped.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yes.
Nathan Hergott: Is there anything else that we need to be aware of that happened between those times?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: No.
Nathan Hergott: Okay.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: No. I didn't tell anybody or anything like that. Except for the pastor, certainly. That was, I told him after [unclear: "telling him" / "Helen"].
Nathan Hergott: Okay.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: [unclear: "He" / "It"] was after Helen. I apologize for that.
Nathan Hergott: Okay.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: And if I don't know, I apologize for that.
Nathan Hergott: There we go. So that was after Helen.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Okay. Right.
Nathan Hergott: Okay. So Helen was at Caressant Care. At Caressant Care, where was Helen's room?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: She was on [unclear: "a side" / "the new side"]. I had been transferred to [unclear: "a side"], which is the new unit, [unclear: "Lake Bowl"], relatively new. I was on the first floor. I was the [unclear: "church nurse" / "charge nurse"] to the first floor. And she was in the room closest to the nurses' station.
Nathan Hergott: Okay. So where was a... for me going to Caressant Care, would it be close to a [unclear: "fight"] or closer to a nurse, to [unclear: "have a side"], or...
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: There's the retirement home. There's a lot of times your retirement home to the... to the nursing home. There's the [unclear: "nurse plane" / "main nursing station"]. There's the East Wing. There's East Wing. And then the end of the hallway of East Wing is the unit 1, unit 2, and the building, right on top of each other.
Nathan Hergott: And what was the purpose of that area of Caressant Care?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Oh, it was all single rooms.
Nathan Hergott: Okay. So Helen was in a single room?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Helen was in a single room, yes. It was all single rooms in that area.
Nathan Hergott: And Helen was a type 2 diabetic with dementia?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yes.
Nathan Hergott: Okay. Tell me a little bit more about Helen.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Helen was miserable. She frequently yelled out, "Help me, nurse." She frequently yelled out she wanted to die. She just was not happy with her life. She was wheel, wheel around in her wheelchair, saying, "Help me, nurse, help me, nurse, help me, nurse, help me, nurse." And when you went to help her, "What do you want help with?" "Hey, get away [unclear: "with me" / "from me"]. Get away. Help me, nurse, help me, nurse." [unclear: "I didn't want to eat in the laundry." / "She didn't want to eat."] It's very difficult to do. Um, constantly, [unclear: "would you look, or would you say, would you want to help her?"] "I want to die. Why can't you help me die? I want to die."
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: And one night it was like something snapped inside. And that red [unclear: "stench" / "surge"] came back, and I thought, okay, you will die. So, uh, I gave her a shot. I came up to her and said, "This is for your pain." And I gave her a shot of [unclear: "blonde acting" / "long-acting"] or short-acting. And she started to settle down. And then later on we put her in the bed, and I gave her more of the, uh, insulin. I think it was [unclear: "blonde acting" / "long-acting"]. She had a seizure. She turned red. She was diaphoretic. The PSWs called me to the bedside. Um, I took all of her vital signs, and I pretended to take [unclear: "both sugar" / "blood sugar"], and said [unclear: "and the dough was normal" / "it was normal"]. "Don't worry about it."
Nathan Hergott: How did you cope with that, when people [unclear: "decided" / "noticed"]?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: The PSWs. Don't, no, don't let anybody see that part of the...
Nathan Hergott: The PSWs?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: No, but what I mean is, what I mean by that is, PSWs... nurses focus on the meds and treatment.
Nathan Hergott: Okay.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: PSWs focus on, like, they were busy. They were busy washing her. They were busy changing her. They were busy dealing with the fact that she was having diarrhea. They were not doing the part of the job I was doing. So, they never would have noticed... [unclear: "Where's my burger?"] So, they never would have noticed, um, me not taking the blood sugar. Because I took her, like, I did her pulse. I did everything else. So, they wouldn't have noticed that I didn't do that, because they were busy with everything else.
Nathan Hergott: Okay. And you just...
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: And I just said, "Oh, blood sugar's good. 5.6. She's good."
Nathan Hergott: Which is a number that [unclear: "you're applying to do with hours" / "would apply to a normal person"], and nothing concerning, the 5.6 or whatever you say.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah.
Nathan Hergott: Okay. Okay. Do you remember the work shift you were working at this point?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: [unclear: "After this." / "Afternoons."] I was straight through to 11s at that point. I was straight through to 11 on that [unclear: "award" / "ward"].
Nathan Hergott: Okay.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: That started just a little bit before that.
Nathan Hergott: Yeah. Okay. And that would have been an individual room, and you said?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yes.
Nathan Hergott: And do you remember when Mrs. Young died?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: [unclear: "Once two days after my death point." / "One or two days after, I think."]
Nathan Hergott: Do you know if you were [unclear: "pregnant" / "present"] for that?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: No, it wasn't.
Nathan Hergott: Was there a different procedure at all? [unclear: "How many people passed away in that, supposed to where you were prior to?" / "when people passed away in that wing, compared to where you were prior?"]
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: No. It was all the same nursing home. It was all the same policies.
Nathan Hergott: Okay.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: It just says that nursing home was... the wing of the nursing home was built to accommodate the fact that the owner took over [unclear: "Narvilla"] in Norwich.
Nathan Hergott: Oh, okay.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: So, everybody from [unclear: "Narvilla"] got moved to the new part of the nursing home.
Nathan Hergott: Okay. So, that's the other reason.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Then [unclear: "you mentioned" / "eventually"] that they all got mixed together.
Nathan Hergott: Right. So, being that it had been a few years then, when you injected Mrs. Young, and you were successful in causing her death, how did it make you feel, after those few years, that these urges and these feelings had come back?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: I felt horrible. I felt angry at myself. I felt like I had failed myself. I felt like God had failed me.
Nathan Hergott: So, you continued your practice in the church?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: I continued going to church, yes.
Nathan Hergott: Did you believe [unclear: "under as much as"]...
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: I did, but I was getting very confused. So, it was soon after that that I went to the pastor and told him what had happened. And he prayed over me. And because he said that was the last thing he would have thought of me. And his wife was there too. And they prayed over me. And they said to me, "Now this is God's grace, but if you ever do this again, we will have to turn you in to the [unclear: "place" / "police"]."
Nathan Hergott: And where would these come from? Where would our conversation have taken place?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: In their house, at their kitchen table. And I kept going to their church.
Nathan Hergott: And how detailed would you have been [unclear: "on the station" / "in that conversation"]?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Oh, I told them that I was taking people's lives [unclear: "by the moon in front of their dresses" / "by giving them insulin overdoses"].
Nathan Hergott: But were you specific with names? How much you knew when you were doing this?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: No.
Nathan Hergott: How many people?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: I don't know if I told them how many people did, but I was doing it and I wanted to stop.
Nathan Hergott: And his response was to pray for you, and pray for you?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: He put his hand on me, and had to put his hand on me, and pray.
Nathan Hergott: [unclear: "What religion was that true, Frances?"]
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Okay.
Nathan Hergott: All right. Does Helen have any family that you recall?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yes, she had a niece that loved her very much and was there at least twice a week.
Nathan Hergott: Did you ever converse with her?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Before she died, yeah.
Nathan Hergott: How old was she?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: We say in the late fifties, early sixties.
Nathan Hergott: Nineties.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Nineties, yeah.
Nathan Hergott: [unclear: "In Helen or something."]
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Nineties.
Nathan Hergott: All right. Did you speak to her following [unclear: "Helen, Frances" / "Helen's passing"]?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: It was... I think it was a day or two after, when she was gathering her [unclear: "socks" / "stuff"], and she cried on my shoulder and thanked me for being [unclear: "a sinner" / "so kind to her"].
Nathan Hergott: [unclear: "You had the feeling to be there at that point." / "What feelings did you have at that point?"]
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Oh, guilt, shame, anger. Like I betrayed her. Not that I was betrayed, but betrayal.
Nathan Hergott: And did you just play [unclear: "a game" / "along"]?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: I just, you know, gave her a hug back and said I was so sorry. But on that point, I was getting very confused with [unclear: "what was this God who wasn't not" / "whether this was God or not"].
Nathan Hergott: And when you resumed doing this, did you have any, besides the religious feelings that you were having, did you have any other personal feelings in your mind as far as knowing the difference between right and wrong again?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yes, yes. I knew the difference between right and wrong. But I thought this was something that God, or whoever, wanted me to do. I'm starting at that point to doubt that it was God.
Nathan Hergott: When you resumed doing it?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah.
Nathan Hergott: All right. Was anyone working with you on that day that you can recall?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: The PSW, but I don't remember anything.
Nathan Hergott: How many would have there been?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Three. There would have been students too, I think. But I can't remember.
Nathan Hergott: And there would have been 32 patients in that wing as well?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yes.
Nathan Hergott: That you're responsible for?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yes.
Nathan Hergott: March of 2014, this is Maureen Pickering, at Caressant Care.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yes.
Nathan Hergott: Tell me about Maureen.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah. Maureen was a handful. She would attack other patients. She would pull their hair. She would hit them. She would pinch them. Eventually, it was decided that [unclear: "you" / "she"] needed a one-on-one staff. So sometimes they would book an extra PSW to be with her. Sometimes someone would come from the outside to be with her. But [unclear: "one more" / "when one"] wasn't available, it was the role of the charge nurse.
Nathan Hergott: That was nuts.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Sorry.
Nathan Hergott: That's just absolutely nuts.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: So, um, she... she just got harder and harder to look after. One night when I had to look after her, I got this idea. I thought, you know, I'm starting to get the feeling of that surge again. I thought, no, I don't want her to die, but if I could somehow give her enough of a dose to give her a coma, or something to change her brainwaves, maybe make her [unclear: "left" / "less"], you know, maybe make her [unclear: "up mobile" / "immobile"], harder to handle. So, yeah, I overdosed her.
Nathan Hergott: And was that in the same [unclear: "way" / "wing"]?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yes, she was right across. She had gone into the room that Helen had [unclear: "visited" / "vacated"]. She was right across from the nurses' station. And as well, [unclear: "I'll stay a single room" / "it was a single room"] at that point. She stroked. And [unclear: "through your stroke" / "through the stroke"], she went to the hospital. And when she came back, she was there for a few days and she died. So, before she came back from the hospital, I was fired from Caressant Care. For medication errors, I had nothing to do with this.
Nathan Hergott: When you got transferred into this, anyway, did you still get the medication the same way? Okay. So, sorry, Maureen, Mrs. Pickering, was transferred from Caressant Care to the hospital...
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Two days, I think. But they knew that she was totally [unclear: "meditative" / "palliative"] when she came back. She was basically coming back to pass away in the [unclear: "heart center" / "palliative room"].
Nathan Hergott: Was she supposed to have [unclear: "a crescent pair" / "her own room"] at Caressant Care when she returned?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: No, [unclear: "I didn't have your own room"]. The palliative care room was for people who didn't have your own room, so that family could go and be with them, and not, you know, not disturb the other residents, and not be disturbed by the other residents.
Nathan Hergott: Right. Right. Do you remember how much [unclear: "I was listening to you" / "insulin you gave her"]?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: [unclear: "Two and six."] It was a lot. It was a lot. I'm going to say eighty [unclear: "dollar maximum" / "long-acting"], fifty short [unclear: "maximum" / "-acting"], something like that.
Nathan Hergott: That was a lot of [unclear: "excellent stuff" / "insulin"].
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: [unclear: "Quite so much, Terry."] I wasn't sure if she was [unclear: "that or not" / "diabetic or not"]. I really wanted to make sure that her mind would change, the way she came after [unclear: "her" / "people"].
Nathan Hergott: So the insulin caused her...
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Stroke.
Nathan Hergott: Stroke, and then the reason to travel to the hospital.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yes.
Nathan Hergott: Do you remember any reaction from [unclear: "Permany" / "Maureen"] or injecting her?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: No, not at all.
Nathan Hergott: Do you remember... [unclear: "I'll take it."] Sorry. I apologize for what part of the body you were injecting her?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: [unclear: "Correct. Left, right."] I had no reaction. Oh, yeah. The first time I gave it to her, she said, "Hey, what was that for?" And I said, "That's your vitamin injection."
Nathan Hergott: Which is, like you said, what you typically tell people?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah.
Nathan Hergott: Okay. How long in between you gave her the next dose?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Probably an hour and a half, two hours.
Nathan Hergott: And that was about what time, did you [unclear: "just answer it"]?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Oh, I don't know.
Nathan Hergott: You were still working in the afternoon during...
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah, [unclear: "either night" / "evening"], I think.
Nathan Hergott: Okay. Okay. [unclear: "Yes, I was just hearing that (first name withheld) told me. He gave her E.Q. and explored that thing as well."]
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah.
Nathan Hergott: Did Ms. Pickering, do you recall any family that she had?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: She had two friends that came and saw her a lot. She had a boyfriend that would come and see her.
Nathan Hergott: Okay. How old was she?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Eighty-two.
Nathan Hergott: How old was her boyfriend?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Oh, I have no idea. No. No. [unclear: "to be the colorado that's the basis."]
Nathan Hergott: Was there any restrictions on visiting practices at all? Certain hours?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Basically, no. If they wanted to come late at night, they had to let us know. And that was more for [unclear: "pious" / "palliative"] people. But no, there was no real restrictions. I mean, there was the odd patient who had a restriction, like they can't leave the building with this person, or they can't leave the building with that person, or so-and-so, [unclear: "she was off called the police" / "you have to call the police"], that person.
Nathan Hergott: Do you remember if you were present when she passed away?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: I was not. I'd already been fired.
Nathan Hergott: Okay, so, sorry. Between the time that she... When were you fired?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Late March, early April.
Nathan Hergott: Was it when she was in the hospital?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: She had come back, and then I was fired.
Nathan Hergott: And then she lived for a few more days, and you were fired in the meantime.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah, for some things that had nothing to do with her. And my timeline may be wrong. It may have been February, because I know that [unclear: "nobody's in the middle of April" / "by the middle of April"] I was working again. And my [unclear: "department was going home" / "apartment"]...
Nathan Hergott: What was the cause of your firing?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: I had had a few medication errors. And strangely enough, not [unclear: "on her wrist" / "on purpose"]. One of our residents was missing her long-acting insulin that she got at supper, and it was coming from pharmacy, but I wanted to make sure she got her insulin. So I took insulin from another person, who I thought was the same insulin, but it was short-acting. And [unclear: "they" / "it"] gave her seizures, because she wasn't used to it. [unclear: "I was a youth student."] And she was okay. We helped her and she was all right. But when they figured it out, I was fired, because I had other medication errors as well.
Nathan Hergott: No, no. Different things.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: [unclear: "I draw."] A lot of different stuff.
Nathan Hergott: And what do you think that was a result of?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: [unclear: "Metair?" / "Med errors?"] The workload.
Nathan Hergott: Was it anything to do with... were you still using [unclear: "them this morning" / "the Hydromorph"]?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: You know what? I never made a [unclear: "work trip" / "med error"]. I never made an error when I was using [unclear: "a work trip" / "Hydromorph"].
Nathan Hergott: Just had you focused?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah.
Nathan Hergott: Did you ever commit any of these deaths [unclear: "in your age" / "while you were using"]?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: No. Not in my life. So, no med errors. No deaths. When I was using them.
Nathan Hergott: Everything was all in the feeling in your chest, and your soul was searching.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: And then the laughter afterwards, which was really... it was like a [unclear: "tackling from pit of health" / "cackling from the pit of hell"], if that makes sense.
Nathan Hergott: Did the [unclear: "Catholic" / "cackling"] continue? When Mrs. Young was injected with insulin? After that two-year break?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yes. Same with the [unclear: "Catholic" / "cackling"]. Same feeling, same with the [unclear: "Catholic" / "cackling"].
Nathan Hergott: So, then you... Did you work anywhere between Caressant Care and Meadow Park?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: No.
Nathan Hergott: Did you go directly from one to the other?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Pretty much.
Nathan Hergott: And were those medication errors documented in a reference letter?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: No.
Nathan Hergott: Were you made aware of anything like that? Meadow Park? Were you aware of the reason why you were...
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: I told the person that hired me at Meadow Park. She told me she had found my resume somewhere. Because I never [unclear: "saw it" / "sent it"] to Meadow Park. She had found my resume somewhere.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: She had found my resume somewhere and she called me because I needed a nurse. So when we did our interview... I forget the last name. It's not there anymore. When we did our interview, she said to me, "Why did you leave?" And I told her, I said, "I'll be absolutely honest with you. I was fired from [unclear: "Medicare" / "Caressant Care"]." And she said, "Well, tell me about them." And I did. And she said, "Okay, well, I believe in second chances, so you're hired." I had [unclear: "two planned afternoons" / "permanent afternoons"] and it was a one-year contract.
Nathan Hergott: Okay. And how long were you unemployed for then?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: A month.
Nathan Hergott: Just a month?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah.
Nathan Hergott: And would you [unclear: "give back or forth" / "drive back and forth"]?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: [unclear: "I still live in the list. I'll come back to meet with Beth."]
Nathan Hergott: [unclear: "First grade afternoons?" / "Permanent afternoons?"]
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah.
Nathan Hergott: What was that? What were the hours for the [unclear: "first grade" / "permanent"] afternoons?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Either 6:30, no, sorry. Either 2:30 to 10:30, or 3 to 11. I'm not sure [unclear: "what she was" / "which it was"].
Nathan Hergott: So, when you got to [unclear: "the medical part" / "Meadow Park"], what was the difference as far as the workflow of the patients that you were responsible for?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: No, the difference... It was extremely similar. The only difference was that the RPNs would do the... if there were dressings that had to be done at night, they'd do the dressings on the people at night that were my people.
Nathan Hergott: Okay.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: But other than that, yeah.
Nathan Hergott: And your supervisor at that point had no problem with that, [unclear: "the thing was not hired"]. Do you have it, or...?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah. She was the [unclear: "nurse inspector" / "director of nursing"].
Nathan Hergott: Okay. So, she'd be your direct supervisor?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah.
Nathan Hergott: So, [unclear: "RPAT or R4RAP?"; probably "Arpad, or Art, Horvath?"]
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yes.
Nathan Hergott: Tell me a little bit about Art.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: He was mean. He would grab the nurses and the PSWs, whatever they were trying to do things for him. He would grab [unclear: "the unit with their arms" / "them by their arms"]. He would punch them. Very difficult to do care for. And... and one night I just felt that [unclear: "surgery" / "surging"], and I felt that need to go.
Nathan Hergott: Had you done something that way?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: No, not really. Just been his normal self. And he fought the first needle. And then the second needle I got in. And I forgot something about Maureen. I had given her a dose of whatever we dosed her with to calm her down, before I ever gave her the [unclear: "influence" / "insulin"]. I forgot about that.
Nathan Hergott: Did you [unclear: "hear that" / "say that"]? About Maureen?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yes. I had given her a sedative dose before I ever gave her the [unclear: "influence" / "insulin"].
Nathan Hergott: Oh, [unclear: "you said you were a hell of a doll" / "you said it was Haldol"]?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yes.
Nathan Hergott: Did you recall doing that?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yes, I did.
Nathan Hergott: [unclear: "And then the two things were in the directions."]
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yes.
Nathan Hergott: Did it come, did the [unclear: "hell it all" / "Haldol"] calm her? Do you remember?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: No, no it didn't.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: So Art, I gave a large amount of short-acting and a large amount of long-acting, in between each other. And then when I left for the night, he was still okay. When I came back the next day and worked, they said that he had had a stroke and gone to the hospital. And then I said... I talked to who had been on the night before. She said, "You know how low his blood sugar was?" And I said, "How low?" And she said, "Oh, like, one point something." And then she said, "You know what? I went home and I did some research, and sometimes having a bad stroke can make your blood sugar go low."
Nathan Hergott: Really?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah, that's what [unclear: "you" / "she"] said to me.
Nathan Hergott: That was odd too.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah, that was odd. But yeah, so he lived for a couple of days and then he passed.
Nathan Hergott: Do you remember what nurse that was?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: It was the night nurse. [unclear: "He was a nightmare. A little short stability in the lane."] That's what I remember.
Nathan Hergott: Okay. And do you remember what time of the night that you had injected [unclear: "her" / "him"]?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: I'm gonna say 7:30, and then 9:30.
Nathan Hergott: And his reaction to it?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: He fought it.
Nathan Hergott: Did he?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah, he fought [unclear: "it everything" / "everything"].
Nathan Hergott: Did you ever speak to these people when you were injecting them?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: No.
Nathan Hergott: Did you ever say anything to them?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Not unless they asked me what I was doing. Then I'd just say it was [unclear: "it right in the injection" / "a vitamin injection"].
Nathan Hergott: But having that, and I know it's documented here a few times, having that feeling of anger and frustration, would you ever...
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: No.
Nathan Hergott: You would never state anything to [unclear: "mobilize" / "verbalize"] your anger towards that person as you were injecting?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: No, never.
Nathan Hergott: And then where did you inject him?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: His arm and his thigh.
Nathan Hergott: And what were you telling him about that, when you were giving him [unclear: "video" / "the injection"]?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: [unclear: "It's a con-up. I've been in need of your message."] And eventually I put it in there.
Nathan Hergott: And was there an immediate reaction to him at all? Did he stroke right away?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: No, he didn't stroke until I left.
Nathan Hergott: Okay. And then that's where you came in the next day I've had the conversation with [unclear: "that people have to repeat on this"].
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: [unclear: "Sorry, I have not heard your name."]
Nathan Hergott: The four or five days later, when he passed away, do you remember if that was back at Meadow Park, or was it in the hospital?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: It was in the hospital. It never came back. It may have just been two or three days. It seemed like it was four or five. And his family was devastated.
Nathan Hergott: What was his health like at that point? Other than dementia.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: He was fairly strong. He was in a wheelchair, but he was a good eater, and he was strong. I'm going to say maybe 78.
Nathan Hergott: And who was his favourite person?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: He had a son, (son, name withheld), who did stand-up comedy. I think it was just, like, open mic night. And then his wife. That's all I remember. I know he had others.
Nathan Hergott: Do you remember if there were other sons or daughters, or just other family members that you could work with?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: There are other family members involved that don't work at home.
Nathan Hergott: Um, did you ever have any interaction with his family? You said they were devastated. What did you learn of that?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: [unclear: "Both they came in" / "Well, they came in"] to take the stuff out of the [unclear: "church" / "room"] while he was still in the hospital. And then when he was gone, they came in to take the rest.
Nathan Hergott: How did you feel having a conversation with them?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Awful. Um, again, [unclear: "I could betray them" / "like I'd betrayed them"].
Nathan Hergott: How are you feeling right now?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: [unclear: "Can I just go back to my camera?" / "Can I just go to the washroom?"]
Nathan Hergott: I know we're almost done. [unclear: "I got the 17." / "I've got 7:10."] [1:53:35 to 1:54:00: break; Whisper gives only "Um, um".]
Nathan Hergott: Okay, we're getting there. I have 7:14 [unclear: "to read it to me"]. So we left off with Art, Mr. Horvath, at the Meadow Park nursing home. And [unclear: "we have a part of the top nurse"], Meadow Park is in London, right?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah, that's right.
Nathan Hergott: Is there anything else you remember about Art at all?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Not really. Well, he was a big game hunter.
Nathan Hergott: Was he?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah. And he had pictures of that. [unclear: "It all was awesome."]
Nathan Hergott: Did you ever converse with these people? Like what they did for work and that sort of thing? Like, would you remember details like that?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Well, Art was a big game hunter. Maurice, I don't know. James, I don't know.
Nathan Hergott: No, I guess you never really did.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah.
Nathan Hergott: Okay. All right. And at Meadow Park, where would you get the [unclear: "info" / "insulin"] from there?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Again, from the medication fridge. [unclear: "I'm using a spare info and eat meals." / "Using spare insulin and needles."]
Nathan Hergott: And again, it wasn't tracked?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Mm-hmm.
Nathan Hergott: Why is that?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: I don't know. [unclear: "This one's" / "Insulin's"] not something that's usually tracked.
Nathan Hergott: Right. Okay. And just because it's not a concern to the homes?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah. I mean, I think it is now. I know some homes track it now.
Nathan Hergott: Mm-hmm. Okay. Just a question out of curiosity. Just my lack of knowledge of how that [unclear: "sounds" / "works"].
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah.
Nathan Hergott: Okay. Now, you have a portion of your... on the fourth page of this document that you wrote out. And before, you said... When did you write this out? I know it's dated the 24th of September.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yes, that's when I wrote it.
Nathan Hergott: You wrote this full document at that point?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Twenty-fourth and twenty-sixth.
Nathan Hergott: Where were you at that point?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: I was at the, the... I was at [unclear: "the CH" / "CAMH"].
Nathan Hergott: And what made you prepare this document?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: The doctor suggested to me that I should. Not to give to the police, but he said that if I wrote it out, it would be a good part of my therapy. And did take a large amount of pressure off me. And helped me to really clarify the fact, but no, it wasn't God. It was something wrong with me psychologically that was making me believe that it was God. It really helped me to clarify that.
Nathan Hergott: And the original of this document?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Is in my knapsack in the back of your car.
Nathan Hergott: And we'll get down to the right point, but is providing us with the original document something you really wanted to do?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yes.
Nathan Hergott: And we'll get to that.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Do you have a [unclear: "stance that you can stand for that's the original" / "form that I can sign for that, for the original"]?
Nathan Hergott: I don't even think we need to do that. We might be assigned a consent form, but we'll get to that.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Okay.
Nathan Hergott: Only if you're willing, of course. You have, of course, on the fourth page here, titled "People Who Didn't Die". What can you tell me about?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Okay, Clotilde. [unclear: "I have your honor."] [unclear: "He's" / "She's"] the first person I ever gave extra [unclear: "information" / "insulin"] to.
Nathan Hergott: Okay.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: I think I gave her 40, and I just, again, there was that [unclear: "searching" / "surging"], but it wasn't so much that I wanted her to die. It was more, let's see what happens. And I gave it to her more than one occasion.
Nathan Hergott: Okay. Well, you know what? I'm sorry. She was prior to Mr. Silcox, right?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah.
Nathan Hergott: So this was the very first thing you injected with insulin?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yes.
Nathan Hergott: And [unclear: "we're" / "this was"] at Caressant Care?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: At Caressant Care.
Nathan Hergott: Her room was where?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Her room was in the East Wing, second door on left. Then East Wing, first door on left, was [unclear: "your sister, Alina" / "her sister, Albina"]. She was diabetic. She was about [unclear: "twelve or" / "two thousand"]... 2007.
Nathan Hergott: Sorry, that was her sister?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: So, she was one of the younger sisters, yeah.
Nathan Hergott: Oh, okay.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Then there was Wayne. He was on the [unclear: "nurse wing" / "North Wing"]. He had dementia. He was diabetic. He could be uncooperative. And I gave him a large overdose, because I thought it was his turn to go.
Nathan Hergott: That was Wayne? And I hate to go back. I have a few more questions.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: [unclear: "Elvina" / "Albina"] was probably eighty-two.
Nathan Hergott: And did they have family that would come to visit?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yes. Very much so.
Nathan Hergott: Who would that be, that would come to visit?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: (Relative, name withheld), I think, was her daughter. And (relative, name withheld) was her husband. [unclear: both names are garbled in the machine text]
Nathan Hergott: And long-acting, short-acting?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Short-acting at that point. [unclear: "They don't step in. They're still doing short acting."]
Nathan Hergott: [unclear: "I think you remember" / "Do you remember"] the dose?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Oh, wait a second. What [unclear: "was he get" / "did they get"] at night? It was long-acting. So, it was what they got at night. And so, it was [unclear: "thrown in from this extra dose"].
Nathan Hergott: Okay.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: [unclear: "Of age twenty" / "Probably twenty"], thirty to forty.
Nathan Hergott: Thirty to forty. And then Wayne [unclear: "held his wings" / "Hedges"], right?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: I'd say sixty.
Nathan Hergott: Okay. So, he was younger.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah, he had developmental challenges. As well as dementia. As well as being diabetic. As well as being handful. And he wanted to die. So, again, that one night I just felt that surging. But he didn't die.
Nathan Hergott: How would you know he wanted to die?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: He would say it sometimes. That he just wanted to go.
Nathan Hergott: Where was Wayne in [unclear: "the dressing room" / "Caressant Care"]?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: He was in room eight, which is the men's [unclear: "four thousand" / "four-bed room"].
Nathan Hergott: So, eight, or a number?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Eight, eight North. Eight North.
Nathan Hergott: And would there be a roommate from there as well?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yes.
Nathan Hergott: Do you know who it is?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: No.
Nathan Hergott: That was 2009. [unclear: "What did that mean?"]
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: [unclear: "It's wrong to you have your body in and you still have your mind."; she appears to be describing Michael Priddle's illness] You get progressively more agitated, you get progressively more psychotic, and you're in a wheelchair, and you've got all these movements that you can't control. It's horrible.
Nathan Hergott: And how old was Mike?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: He was 54. And again, one night I just felt that [unclear: "searching" / "surging"], and I thought, this must be God, because this man is not enjoying his life at all. So I gave him a large amount of insulin. I think I gave him 90 total.
Nathan Hergott: [unclear: "Did you ever do anything to hurt him?" / "Did he ever do anything to hurt you?"]
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: No, no.
Nathan Hergott: Did Wayne?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: No.
Nathan Hergott: [unclear: "I'll be in there?"]
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: No. No.
Nathan Hergott: This takes us to a different location, in Telfer Place, Paris. That's obviously Paris, Ontario, correct?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yes. That's right. In [unclear: "Granford" / "Brant County"], Ontario. 2016.
Nathan Hergott: Okay, and that was Sandra?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah, and I was... Sandra, I think she was in her 70s.
Nathan Hergott: Okay. And Telfer Place, what was the break-up of the room there? Where was she located?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: She was down the [unclear: "window" / "hallway"]. Straight down from the nursing desk, two doors on the left.
Nathan Hergott: Okay.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: And she had three roommates.
Nathan Hergott: And [unclear: "she described for" / "can you describe"] a little bit of personality in her home?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: [unclear: "Tall, not very well."] She didn't walk anymore. She had a good sense of humour. She [unclear: "offered" / "often said"] that she didn't want to be there. And so one night I [unclear: "heard her" / "overdosed her"], and I didn't think [unclear: "it was over though" / "it was enough, though"]. But she survived, because the nurse that came on next went to check on her to do something else, and noticed that she was sweating, and [unclear: "that her blood sugar had saved her life" / "checked her blood sugar, and saved her life"].
Nathan Hergott: And how did these other people survive?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: [unclear: "It just didn't, oh,"] Clotilde and Albina, they found them to have short... low blood sugar, they found them to have blood sugar, and they gave them stuff to raise it. And Wayne and Mike, they just survived because they were found out.
Nathan Hergott: Was there anything to do with the gender, male or female, that has influenced the effect of it, or was it just, again, just kind of on the makeup of their body and their health?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: I don't know that I noticed that in the gender, of Sandra. The nurse who saved Sandra...
Nathan Hergott: Yeah. Was there anything that ever came back on you?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: No.
Nathan Hergott: Any retribution, consequences?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: No, she never figured it out, but I know. She even asked me about it, and asked if I thought she'd done the right thing.
Nathan Hergott: Who was it? Do you remember?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: [unclear: "Ann, I don't remember her name." / "And I don't remember her name."]
Nathan Hergott: And what [unclear: "was" / "were you"] working at that point? [unclear: "What's just really working at Telfer's place?"]
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Whatever I got called in for. I was actually working for a nursing agency at that time called Lifeguard Agency, and I was sent to [unclear: "Telfer's Lifeguard" / "Telfer by Lifeguard"].
Nathan Hergott: So you were never employed by Telfer Place?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: No, I was employed by Lifeguard, and I would go to Telfer and two other places as well.
Nathan Hergott: And that's when you were involved with St. Elizabeth as well, right?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah, yeah. I was only with St. Elizabeth, and that's what happened before.
Nathan Hergott: Okay. 2016, of August, which is not too long ago, you're employed with St. Elizabeth, as it says here.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah, I was frustrated with my job. I had a huge workload. Having to learn a lot of new things. Just a lot of frustration. The weekend that this happened, I had all of the people that I had to look after, most of them were in [unclear: "either fall" / "Ingersoll"]. I didn't know any of them. And on the Saturday I went in and I was doing my care. And this is really the only one that was pre-planned to go on the Saturday, when I met [unclear: "Jim Caron Beverly" / "Beverly"]. I noticed that she had a PICC line, which is wanting to take medication straight to your heart, and that she was diabetic. And so the next day when I went in, I was really frustrated, and I could just really feel the surging and the laughing. I gave her a huge amount. I gave her, I think it was 180, three doses of 60, through the PICC line. [unclear: "No, because I used Wonder Insta pick line. Wonder put into her eyes and I vowed I had some Wonder Insta pick line again." / "One into the PICC line... and then some more into the PICC line again."] And she survived. She was fine the next day. No, but I was able to check [unclear: "about my computer" / "on my computer"], because she's seen every day by herself. So I had to go into the tablet from work and see how she was.
Nathan Hergott: Okay. And that was just computer programming?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah. On their own tablet.
Nathan Hergott: Okay. And these other people, where did you inject them?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Oh, [unclear: "there are" / "their arms"].
Nathan Hergott: All of them?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: All of them, yeah. Sandy was probably her leg, but she was a little bit more difficult.
Nathan Hergott: In August of 2016, you don't remember Beverly [unclear: "last night" / "last name"]?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: No, I don't. I don't even remember her first name was Beverly.
Nathan Hergott: Oh, okay.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: I think probably... [unclear: "I don't know how to tell you where we came. The weekend there was not."]
Nathan Hergott: But she lived in [unclear: "Arizona" / "Ingersoll"]?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yes.
Nathan Hergott: Did she live in a home, or?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah, in a home.
Nathan Hergott: Like a [unclear: "girl in residence" / "private residence"], I mean, or? [2:06:10 to 2:06:23: no speech in the machine text.]
Nathan Hergott: Do you remember [unclear: "where I think her solid was" / "what her surname was"]?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: No, I don't.
Nathan Hergott: How can you have the name Beverly, but you're not sure what her name is?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Because I'm not sure if it was Bev, or B, or?
Nathan Hergott: I gotcha. Okay. And that was the only one you had given through a PICC line?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yes.
Nathan Hergott: Did you know what the result would be, compared to a direct injection into an arm or a leg or a thigh?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: I've never done it before. I've never looked at it. I have no idea. She went to sleep fairly quickly, and I [unclear: "lost" / "left"]. But when I checked the next day to see how she went, through the next nurse, there was no change.
Nathan Hergott: How [unclear: "was" / "old was"] she?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: She was 63, 64.
Nathan Hergott: And what was her diagnosis, as far as her [unclear: "name" / "health"]?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: She was diabetic, and she had large ulcers on her leg. And she also had a severe infection.
Nathan Hergott: How does that make you feel, [unclear: "control of that" / "talking about that"]?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Awful.
Nathan Hergott: Do you feel like there's a burden [unclear: "on toxic shoulders" / "off your shoulders"]?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yes. I've done the right thing.
Nathan Hergott: Do you feel it just sounds [unclear: "a relief" / "like a relief"]?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yes. And now I know that it wasn't God, and I'm ashamed of myself that that happened, but I also think that it was mental health. I think if I was in my right mind, [unclear: "I would have been able to tell on my tooth" / "I wouldn't have been able to... or I would have told someone"]. [unclear: "I just raised a belief in God. I just raised my mother." / "I was raised to believe in God. I was raised by my mother."] [unclear: "He didn't give us that sense of skill." / "He didn't give us that sense of guilt."] So how can I get such a strong feeling that this is [unclear: "what's bad and all in it" / "what He wants"], unless it was something wrong with my head?
Nathan Hergott: And I've always talked about what you would say to the families, and so on and so forth. But again, I feel terrible for the people that are gonna find out in the days [unclear: "when we just come about"] what actually happened to their loved ones, right?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: I do. I feel horrible. If there was ever anything I could do so that nobody did this again, I'd do it.
Nathan Hergott: Just a few other things to cover off. The things that some of these people would do to you, the hitting, the pinching, the grabbing of your breasts, would you ever report that?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah, but yeah, it was always reported [unclear: "in charges on" / "in the charting"].
Nathan Hergott: And that's to document [unclear: "other charges" / "in the charts"]?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yes.
Nathan Hergott: Okay. And was there any... there's obviously never, not obviously, but was there ever any charges or criminal matters that came up any of this at all?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: No, no. That's part of working in the nursing home. That's just what they do.
Nathan Hergott: [unclear: "Might even be your fault there."]
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah, [unclear: "you said that" / "she said that"]. (Name withheld; a surname, possibly a supervisor's.)
Nathan Hergott: Yeah. Do you think that might just play a role in your actions?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: No.
Nathan Hergott: (Former partner, name withheld), [unclear: "you're at this"]. What was (former partner, name withheld)'s last name? [2:09:43 to 2:09:53: no speech in the machine text; any answer is not transcribed.]
Nathan Hergott: When was the last time you talked to her?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: I think about four years ago, when she wanted money to move back. We were only together for a year.
Nathan Hergott: So she came here from...
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah, [unclear: "from Roger Two Kids" / "with her two kids"]. Okay. [unclear: "From Teenage Kids." / "Two teenage kids."]
Nathan Hergott: Yeah.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah. Yeah, we got involved with that. [unclear: "We'll see, yes, with them."]
Nathan Hergott: When they were here?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Uh-huh.
Nathan Hergott: Have you... This document, have you prepared that...
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yes.
Nathan Hergott: And I know that you have stated the reason why... I guess you called it the breaking point of why you stopped.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yes.
Nathan Hergott: Was the possibility that you were going to have to be dealing with kids.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yes, that's right.
Nathan Hergott: Right.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yes.
Nathan Hergott: Is there anyone else within your career path that isn't listed on these four pieces of paper, that you'd be responsible for their [unclear: "debts" / "deaths"]?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Absolutely not.
Nathan Hergott: And if we were to tell you that we'd come across some fairly significant or suspicious deaths at other nursing homes?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Where I've been?
Nathan Hergott: Right. What would you say [unclear: "tonight" / "to that"]?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: [unclear: "I've been with me." / "It wasn't me."]
Nathan Hergott: So there's no one else involved?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: No.
Nathan Hergott: That [unclear: "was felt" / "has fallen"] victim to your actions?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: No.
Nathan Hergott: Okay. Just repeat to me again [unclear: "the people at U of the school are just too beside myself tonight" / "the people that you have disclosed this to"].
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Okay. The very first person I ever disclosed to was [unclear: "another girlfriend" / "my girlfriend"] at the time. Her name was... That was after a couple of, couple of people, and she told me not to do it again, or she was going to turn me in to the police.
Nathan Hergott: [unclear: "Oh, I couldn't tell you."]
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: 2008, I think. And then 2011, when I decided to stop... When I decided to stop killing, my friend told her what I had been doing and that I had stopped. And then I told the pastor. And then after that, I told the... in 2014, after [unclear: "I passed away" / "Art passed away"], I went on a holiday. And that's when I really decided that [unclear: "the test stopped" / "this had to stop"]. And so I told a friend, and [unclear: "he went to BC" / "she lives in BC"]. Then I told, when I came back, I [unclear: "got a judge and a lawyer" / "went to a lawyer"]. And then while I was in Toronto, while I was in CAMH, well, I told my friend, before everyone, I told my cousin that I was my friend. And I told my friend. And then while I was in CAMH, I told someone who I thought was a friend to turn around and call the police to make sure that [unclear: "he had really been dealt with" / "it had really been dealt with"]. And I understand that he thought he was doing the right thing. I understand that, but he had said, "Oh, I won't tell anybody." I was using him as a resource for support, and he turned around. When I had already shared it, why would he call the police?
Nathan Hergott: So why do you think that none of these people contacted police?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Maybe they didn't believe me. I don't know. Maybe they just thought, maybe they thought I was doing more something that the patient wanted to have.
Nathan Hergott: And as far as, believe me, [unclear: "where these close people do" / "are these close people"] that you've shared other deep, dark secrets, that maybe we're not...
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: I would say deep, dark secrets [unclear: "without themselves"], yeah.
Nathan Hergott: Because this is a pretty serious thing.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yes, it is. [unclear: "We're normal."] I'm telling you. It was the worst thing.
Nathan Hergott: Telling these people, and I just find it hard to believe that no one would come forward until we're just five, six people down the road, right? Having knowledge of it.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah, I hear you.
Nathan Hergott: And everything that you're telling us is the truth?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yes, it is.
Nathan Hergott: There's nothing that's been fabricated?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: No, sir.
Nathan Hergott: And you're sure about that.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: I know.
Nathan Hergott: What would we find at your home? Did you ever document any of this?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Once in a while I journaled on it. There might be some in my home, but I don't know. I think I threw it out. If it's around, it would be in, like, a [unclear: "bio binder" / "binder"], in either my desk, my other desk, or my... whatchamacallit. Come on.
Nathan Hergott: Did you live alone?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yes, I did. [unclear: "Did you want for them to come with me or not?"]
Nathan Hergott: Well, to be honest with you, as part of the investigation, there's already been a search [unclear: "for an executed address" / "warrant executed at your address"]. I don't know what stage it's at, because we've been conversing for quite some time. It's probably close to being completed, but I'm just asking because you've been so cooperative, and again, I do appreciate that. I really do. It just makes things a lot easier, right? If I didn't know where a certain thing might be in your [unclear: "city" / "suite"], you might have thrown them out. You might not have.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: At the very end of my coffee table, there's a box and pictures, and there might be something in there too. [unclear: "I'll turn it to you. Writing, writing path."]
Nathan Hergott: What types of things did you document?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Just what I had done, and how bad I felt when it happened. Just trying to figure out what was going on in my head.
Nathan Hergott: Searching for answers.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah.
Nathan Hergott: But you're not sure if those are [unclear: "not" / "there"] or not yet?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: I thought I got rid of them all, but I don't know if I did for sure.
Nathan Hergott: And would there be anything else as far as computer documents or anything like that?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: There would be, I accessed the computer support group for a person with personality disorder. It would be on that website. Oh, it's just an open forum that you could join in and post comments.
Nathan Hergott: What website was that?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: I couldn't tell you, but I could find it on my computer.
Nathan Hergott: Okay. And would that be something that you could go into with us?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Of course. [unclear: "It was a good time to go talk to us and computer websites and whatnot."]
Nathan Hergott: What's your tattoo [unclear: "name" / "say"]?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: "Hopes and Dreams."
Nathan Hergott: Is that who it is?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Then, I have hopes for the future and dreams of the future.
Nathan Hergott: Yeah. What are your hopes for the future now?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: That somehow, some way, I can help somebody. There's got to be somebody, wherever to go, jail, penitentiary. There's got to be somebody I can help. Maybe somebody who can't read. Maybe somebody who can't write. Maybe somebody who's done worse than me and feels like it will never be forgiven. Maybe somebody who's done less than me and feels like it will never be forgiven. There's got to be something that can come from this. Maybe somebody can study me and come up with answers and new medications [unclear: "to the system and that thing else. That's mental security math."]
Nathan Hergott: Is there anything worse than taking someone else's life?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yes. Child molestation.
Nathan Hergott: Absolutely.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: I was afraid that I might get that feeling of wanting to give [unclear: "a mental diagnosis" / "an overdose"]. [unclear: "Especially since they were a bad guy." / "Especially since they were a vulnerable group."] And I just, I panicked. There was no way. I was absolutely not open to that.
Nathan Hergott: Is there anything else that you can think of right now?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: No. I think I did pretty good.
Nathan Hergott: I think you did. I'm just going to get you to sit tight, and we'll arrange to see where the next steps are.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Oh, okay. I might not be going home, then.
Nathan Hergott: I will get back to you with that. We discussed your original documents in your backpack. If I were to prepare a form, which is a consent search, or a consent form, to provide us with those documents, would that be something that you would be willing to do?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah, sure. Okay. There's some stuff in there too that I did with the nurse.
Nathan Hergott: In your backpack?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah.
Nathan Hergott: Okay. What kind of things?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Like, it's called a chain link thing. So you start at what you did and you go backwards to how you're feeling, and what you could have done different, and things and all that.
Nathan Hergott: Do you feel [unclear: "as you're talking about chemi-frontal" / "that you've been helped at CAMH"]?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yes, very much so.
Nathan Hergott: Have you received the care that you thought you needed?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah, an increase in medication, which I feel I needed.
Nathan Hergott: All right. Sit tight for a few moments.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Okay.
Nathan Hergott: And I'll be back to you shortly.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Okay.
Nathan Hergott: Again, on my phone, I got 7:39.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Okay.
Nathan Hergott: And let me get back to you with some answers.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: I'd like to go home. I'd like to go home.
Nathan Hergott: Okay. All right. Thank you, Beth.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Thank you.
Nathan Hergott: Appreciate it.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Thank you.
Nathan Hergott: Thank you. [unclear: "Can someone help the doctor clean up?"]
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah.
Nathan Hergott: We'll get something, if it's all right.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Okay. Thank you.
Nathan Hergott: I'll be right back.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Thank you. [About 2:20:16: the officer leaves and returns; the machine text runs straight on, so the length of the gap is not known.]
Nathan Hergott: Okay. I'm sorry, Beth.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: That's okay.
Nathan Hergott: You could imagine that [unclear: "thing, that this nature" / "things of this nature"] take some time.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah, I understand.
Nathan Hergott: And I appreciate your patience with me.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: I understand. Thank you.
Nathan Hergott: So I have 8:02. I just thought, we're in the home stretch, okay, and I can explain to you everything that's going to go on, okay? Fair enough?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Okay.
Nathan Hergott: So, first off, a few things that... and you remember the gentleman who transported us back from Toronto, and also Karen, or my partners, they've just been monitoring it.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Right, right.
Nathan Hergott: Just some things that are concerning and that we just need to firm up, okay?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Okay.
Nathan Hergott: So, first off, as I said, there has been a search warrant executed at the residence.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Okay.
Nathan Hergott: And there was some paperwork with regard to a Remington [unclear: "gun shot down" / "shotgun"] of some sort.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Oh.
Nathan Hergott: [unclear: "But what was that before?"]
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Just, look at it. I like guns.
Nathan Hergott: Okay. Yeah. All right. Do you have any at all?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: No. No. I used to.
Nathan Hergott: Did you?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: I had a .22.
Nathan Hergott: Yeah. Was that a Remington [unclear: "machine"]?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Not that I had in my house. Okay. But my husband had a gun that his dad gave [unclear: "me" / "him"], that we would shoot with, so I could [unclear: "stay at" / "go to"] the gun club and shoot. And when we broke up, I did the paperwork to give it back to them. That might be what they found.
Nathan Hergott: There's no firearms in here, I'm sorry?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: No, sir. No, never will be.
Nathan Hergott: Okay. All right. The username, like, what would your username be on that blog that you write on, the [unclear: "part group" / "support group"]?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Oh, you know what? I'd have to go and look.
Nathan Hergott: Yeah. It's not, like, your name and a couple numbers, or anything like that?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: No, I'd have to be sitting down in front of the computer to remember it. And even to find the support group.
Nathan Hergott: Okay. These are a bunch of random questions. [unclear: "Let's all turn them together."] The [unclear: "influence" / "insulin"] that used, the short-acting, long-acting, was an actual brand or make of the [unclear: "influence" / "insulin"] that you used?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: It might have been [unclear: "an ambulance" / "Humulin"]. Okay. It might have been [unclear: "Lenovo" / "NovoRapid"]. Can't remember the name of it.
Nathan Hergott: When you worked with Lifeguard, I know that you had mentioned they sent you to certain locations and certain homes.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah.
Nathan Hergott: What were those?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: There was Telfer Place, and there was two others. There was more than... there was Telfer Place. That was the very first. Then there was... Telfer Place, [unclear: "Fort Dover, Dover Place" / "Port Dover, Dover Cliffs"], what it was called. I did one PSW shift at a place in New Hamburg. I don't know [unclear: "how your name of it" / "the name of it"]. Also, I worked at Telfer. [unclear: "Tupper Place and Dover Club" / "Telfer Place and Dover Cliffs"] are both owned by the same people, and they have another nursing home in [unclear: "Grandford" / "Brantford"], but I can't remember the name of it. And then Park Lane Terrace in Paris. And [unclear: "Hardy Terrace"]. I think it's outside of Paris. Oh, and what was the other one called? Oh, Lord. It's way far [unclear: "as town" / "out of town"]. It's like an hour and a half drive from here. My dad grew up in that area. Like, it's in the Jarvis area, Jarvis and [unclear: "Co."] area. [unclear: "I didn't tell you how to turn my brain shut for the night."]
Nathan Hergott: That's all right.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah. Is my house going to be a mess when I get back?
Nathan Hergott: No. [unclear: "Oh, okay."] So, no, no, no, no.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Okay. Well, that's kind of [unclear: "a song" / "the thing"] that you see on TV.
Nathan Hergott: Yeah.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: [unclear: "You start multiplying everywhere" / "Your stuff's piled everywhere"], right?
Nathan Hergott: Yeah. Your Facebook page, at one point there was a comment, or I don't know where it is in your timeline, about a pediatric nurse. Did you ever work with a pediatric nurse?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Oh, then I was going to be working with the kids.
Nathan Hergott: Did that refer to [unclear: "you with it yourself"]?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yes.
Nathan Hergott: Okay, [unclear: "can I touch it?"] All right. All right. And just go back through the names of people here. So, we've got...
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: [unclear: "The vultures you're writing?"]
Nathan Hergott: Yeah. [unclear: names appear to be read from the list here; the machine text does not capture them] That's your cousin?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: That's my cousin.
Nathan Hergott: Okay.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: I'm not [unclear: "doing" / "giving"] her last name.
Nathan Hergott: Yeah, that's fine. Yeah.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Um, the lawyer, his name I cannot remember.
Nathan Hergott: That's right, who's a female?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah.
Nathan Hergott: Okay. Um... Right?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah.
Nathan Hergott: Who's that?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: She was a friend to the nurse.
Nathan Hergott: Where was she?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: From, um, from, um, um, [unclear: "present here" / "Caressant Care"]. I told her after I had stopped for the first time. And she stopped being my friend. And...
Nathan Hergott: Where does she work?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: She doesn't. She's on [unclear: "OTSC" / "ODSP"].
Nathan Hergott: Did she work [unclear: "on it in her similar view"]?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: No.
Nathan Hergott: You don't know where she lives in town?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: She lives in [unclear: "the Toronto"].
Nathan Hergott: Okay. Okay. We're gonna wrap things up, but here's what's gonna happen. Okay?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Okay.
Nathan Hergott: And part of this is gonna be up to you. What are your plans going forward from here?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Going forward from here? I want to go home. I want to have a good night's sleep. I want to spend Thanksgiving weekend with my family. And I want to be available to the police [unclear: "at N10 to meet me" / "when they need me"], and if I have to come back for trial, I have to come back for trial. I have no plans of leaving. I can surrender my car if you want me to.
Nathan Hergott: Are your parents... are you close with your parents?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Very close. I have to tell them tonight what's happened.
Nathan Hergott: With Mom and Dad?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yes, they know that I've been in the hospital, that... I just told them it was for treatment, but yeah. My plan tonight is to go and talk to them one-on-one, like face-to-face, and tell them.
Nathan Hergott: What do you think their reaction is going to be?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: They're going to be devastated. I'm going to plan on staying the night there, so they have access to me.
Nathan Hergott: What type of support do you think you're going to get from there?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Eventually, all the support I need. I also plan to go to my AA groups. I have planned on doing 90 meetings in 90 days, and just keep up with, like, I planned to do. One of the things that happens with me is I isolate, and then I start to not do well, so I plan to do the [unclear: "same student thing" / "same steady thing"], keep up with my friends, clean my apartment, tell my parents. Those are my plans. I have no plans to leave town. I've done this, and I'm ready to face it, but I would love to go home for a day.
Nathan Hergott: I think that's going to happen.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: [unclear: "Love you."]
Nathan Hergott: I think that's going to happen. As I said at the very, very beginning of this, whatever time we started, hours ago, you're not under arrest right now.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Okay.
Nathan Hergott: As you can imagine... [2:29:46 to 2:29:56: no speech in the machine text, then a fragment, "Call you back in 30 minutes" (speaker and context uncertain).]
Nathan Hergott: As I said at the beginning, you're not under arrest. But as you can imagine, a notification like this is something that we've never dealt with. It's something that doesn't happen very often. It's something that you rarely hear about. I don't know of many, but you're not the first person to do this. Having said that, we have a responsibility to protect the public.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Right.
Nathan Hergott: You know where we're coming from when I say that?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yes. Absolutely.
Nathan Hergott: Okay. You've done some things to some innocent people.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Absolutely.
Nathan Hergott: Some pretty... what people are going to have opinions of you.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Right. Exactly.
Nathan Hergott: Having said that, there's something in the Criminal Code of Canada, and this is usually resulting in someone being charged with a criminal offence and being placed on such a thing called an 810 peace bond.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Okay.
Nathan Hergott: Basically, what an 810 peace bond is, is kind of a promise given, by your word given to us. It's a court document issued by a judge that puts you on certain conditions, limiting you from doing certain things, having certain things in your possession, attending certain locations, and if you were to breach those conditions, then you would be arrested and further charged with breaching what's called an 810 peace bond.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Okay.
Nathan Hergott: Basically, you've heard of a restraining order?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yes.
Nathan Hergott: It's similar to that.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Okay.
Nathan Hergott: Okay. A lot of people call it a restraining order, but it's actually, in Canada, called an 810 peace bond.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Okay.
Nathan Hergott: Again, just limit you from doing certain things, attending certain locations. It could be things like still getting help for your mental health, your substance abuse...
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yes.
Nathan Hergott: Surrendering your passport.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: I have no passport.
Nathan Hergott: Not practising as an RN.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah.
Nathan Hergott: Another thing, nursing homes, things like that. If that were an option, which, like I said, usually that occurs with people that are charged, people are convicted of certain offences, that's part of their punishment. Would you be willing to enter into an 810 peace bond prior to being currently charged?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Absolutely.
Nathan Hergott: And do you understand what I mean by an 810 peace bond?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yes, it means I have to do it, or I come back and I'm in jail until everything else happens.
Nathan Hergott: I don't know what would happen if you were to breach it, as far as jail and the consequences. The only thing that I want to make sure, that it's clear to you and that I'm getting my point across, is that it's basically a document that you're going to [unclear: "square a sign" / "swear and sign"] and agree not to do certain things, not to do certain things in your position. And I'm not saying that's going to happen right now, because it has to go in front of the judge.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Oh, okay.
Nathan Hergott: Okay, so it's just an option that we're looking at because, as I said, we have the responsibility to protect the public.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yes, absolutely.
Nathan Hergott: That's why I want to know what your plans are.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yes.
Nathan Hergott: I want to know that you're going to go home and be supported by your family.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yes.
Nathan Hergott: [unclear: "I want to know later. Someone will be charged with all time."]
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: [unclear: "Always on my body if you need me."] I will be here if you need me to come here. I'll be here if you need me to wait for you to come and get me. I'll be totally committed.
Nathan Hergott: All right. I think we have your cell phone number.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: (Cell phone number withheld.) Home phone number is (number withheld).
Nathan Hergott: Parent phone number...
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Don't worry about that. [unclear: "I'll get your parents to know you."]
Nathan Hergott: Okay. Do you understand what we just talked about?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Oh, yes, absolutely.
Nathan Hergott: Because it's a very unique situation, right?
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yes.
Nathan Hergott: Where you confess to certain things, and we have quite a bit of, like, work, as you can imagine, to [unclear: "geeze" / "piece"] this investigation together and see where we go from here. There's a lot of people that will consult in it and determine the final answer of what your fate is.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Okay.
Nathan Hergott: All right. But I know that you're aware of the extent of what you've done. I know that you've verbalized and spoke about how you feel. And obviously you can't take it back, but...
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: I'm relieved that I could [unclear: "test it" / "confess it"]. I feel sorry for the people that are now going to find out. [unclear: "Sorry, I didn't say it. They should do that. There's a poor experience in the story. Like Diana's story or something. Yeah. Something wrong with those lines."] I really have to pee. Sorry.
Nathan Hergott: No problem. I've got 8:15, and I think that will probably [unclear: "include things" / "conclude things"], but we'll [unclear: "use the washing" / "use the washroom"] and go from there. Oh, I just had to get a sign that consent, by the way.
Elizabeth Wettlaufer: Yeah.
Nathan Hergott: No problem. [2:35:00 to 2:35:35: Whisper gives only "No problem." at 2:35:20; recording ends.] ---