"I Cannot Say No to That Question": Joseph Paul Franklin's Death-Row Interview with Fox 2 St. Louis, 2013

Name: "I Cannot Say No to That Question": Joseph Paul Franklin's Death-Row Interview with Fox 2 St. Louis, 2013
Uploaded: 2013-11-21
Duration: 25 min 30 s
Description: Shortly before his execution, Joseph Paul Franklin described the 1977 synagogue shooting in suburban St. Louis to Fox 2's Tom O'Neill, blamed Mein Kampf for his hatred, and said he believed he deserved to die.

Shortly before his execution, Joseph Paul Franklin described the 1977 synagogue shooting in suburban St. Louis to Fox 2's Tom O'Neill, blamed Mein Kampf for his hatred, and said he believed he deserved to die.

Subject: Joseph Paul Franklin
Recorded: about November 20, 2013
Runtime: 25:30

Content warning: Franklin describes shooting worshippers outside a synagogue and talks about the antisemitic and racist beliefs that drove his crimes.

The Interview

In November 2013, with his execution in Missouri approaching, Joseph Paul Franklin spoke for about 25 minutes with Tom O'Neill of Fox 2 in St. Louis, through the glass of a prison visiting booth. The questions concern the case for which he was to die: the shooting of Gerald Gordon outside a synagogue in Richmond Heights, a St. Louis suburb, in October 1977. Franklin describes the shooting in detail, says it was a "terrible crime", and, asked whether he deserves to die, answers: "I actually think I do."

Historical Context

Franklin, born James Clayton Vaughn Jr. in Mobile, Alabama, on April 13, 1950, travelled the United States between 1977 and 1980 shooting Black people, interracial couples and Jewish people. On October 8, 1977, he fired on people leaving a bar mitzvah at a synagogue in suburban St. Louis, killing Gerald Gordon, 42, and wounding two other men. On March 6, 1978, he shot the publisher Larry Flynt in Lawrenceville, Georgia, leaving him paralysed; he was never tried for it. Arrested by the FBI in Lakeland, Florida, on October 28, 1980, he was convicted of murders in several states and serving life sentences when he confessed to the Gordon killing; he was sentenced to death in Missouri on February 27, 1997.

Circumstances of the Interview

The interview was one of several Franklin gave in his final weeks, alongside a telephone interview with Beth Karas, a CNN interview with Kyung Lah and an interview with the St. Louis Post-Dispatch. Larry Flynt, who opposed the death penalty, had publicly called for Franklin's life to be spared; in the recording O'Neill says Flynt had also filed a lawsuit to try to block the execution. Franklin was executed by lethal injection at Bonne Terre, Missouri, on November 20, 2013; this recording was posted online the next day by a third-party channel.

What the Interview Covers

Franklin says he confessed to the Richmond Heights case because of a dream, and because, he claims, guards at the federal penitentiary at Marion planned to kill him. He describes the shooting: the nail and socks he used as a rifle rest, his fear, the shots he says he fired deliberately wide, and his escape by bicycle. He declines to discuss how many people he killed. He blames Mein Kampf and Nazi Party publications for his hatred, says religion has changed him, and describes studying world religions in prison and his teenage involvement with Herbert W. Armstrong's Worldwide Church of God. He says he once wanted to write to Gordon's widow to apologise and would ask her forgiveness now. He ends, half joking, with "Larry Flynt for president."

What Makes the Recording Significant

At about 25 minutes, this is one of the longest of the interviews Franklin gave before his execution, and it concentrates on the Missouri case. It records his own account of the synagogue shooting and his statement that he deserved the death penalty, made days or weeks before it was carried out.

Archival Importance

The FBI says Franklin killed at least 15 people and possibly more than 20; he was convicted of eight murders. Recorded for a St. Louis station, the interview preserves the killer's account of a crime that the local community lived with for decades, and complements the CNN interview from the same weeks.

Important Caveats

Franklin's statements about his motives, his remorse, his change of heart and the Marion guards are his own claims, made shortly before execution. The interviewer's "15 to 20 killings" is his own figure. The recording date, place and station are inferred from the recording itself (O'Neill's "We're with Fox 2"); the air date has not been verified. Two names Franklin mentions (a jail visitor and "Sheila Gordon") are heard but not verified, and the page should not use them.

Tom O'Neill: Joseph, uh, you've been on death row now for what, 16 years?

Joseph Paul Franklin: About 16 years.

Tom O'Neill: And now the execution date is, is drawing very near. What are, what are your feelings with that deadline?

Joseph Paul Franklin: Well, I'm hoping to get a stay of execution and have my sentence commuted to life without parole.

Tom O'Neill: What do you think your chances...

Joseph Paul Franklin: That's what I'm, that's what I'm shooting for now. Uh, I don't really think, I don't really don't know what, you know. Uh, only God knows what the chances are of it happening, you know.

Tom O'Neill: Uh, you were serving consecutive life sentences for some murders when you decided to confess to the Richmond Heights sniping and got the death sentence. Why did you decide to confess?

Joseph Paul Franklin: Well, I had a dream that told me to confess to this, the Richmond Heights case, and, uh, you know, I was kind of surprised to, to have a dream that would tell me that, you know. But at the time, the guards at the federal penitentiary at Marion were planning to murder me, uh, because I assaulted one of them, threw some hot water on one of them. And I, I was unaware at that time that in the federal penitentiary, if you assault a prison guard, they have the right to kill you. This comes down from the top. They could literally take you and beat you to death, any way they could think of to kill you. They have the right to kill a federal prisoner just for assaulting a guard.

Joseph Paul Franklin: You know, I've heard it happening since then to at least one other inmate, but there were probably been dozens, maybe even hundreds of inmates murdered over there at the Marion Federal Penitentiary within the past 20, 30 years or so. And so, you know, I had, I was kind of in a catch-22 situation. I either could confess to this case and be on death row over here, or get murdered by the guards within possibly a matter of, of weeks. So I chose, uh, the former, to, you know, take my chances over here on death row.

Tom O'Neill: Now, what prompted you to go to the synagogue that day and, and kill Gerald Gordon?

Joseph Paul Franklin: Well, just, uh, a misguided, you know, just a misguided sense of, of right and wrong. I thought I was actually doing the right thing. I'd been, you know, indoctrinated. Uh, my mind was just all messed up after having read a whole lot of Nazi literature. Uh, Mein Kampf was the main one I read. I mean, you could go through the book from cover to cover, there's all sorts of anti-, uh, Jewish statements in there, you know. And he doesn't even offer any proof whatsoever to back up the claims that he makes in this, in the thing. Just nothing but one anti-Jewish or anti-Semitic statement after another. And when you continue reading that, that crap all the time, you eventually start to believe it. It just starts to soak into your psyche, I guess, you know. And, uh, I was 18 when I first became involved with the American Nazi Party and started reading that, that book. And I was just very impressionable. I just, you know, I was just pretty much, uh, brainwashed by it, you know.

Tom O'Neill: Do you remember the details of that day?

Joseph Paul Franklin: Yeah, most of them. Yeah, I remember what happened.

Tom O'Neill: What happened when, apparently, the shooting took place after the bar mitzvah was over and people were coming out?

Joseph Paul Franklin: Yeah, I really didn't have any idea what was going on there, whether it was a bar mitzvah or not. I learned that later. But I just was just waiting for people to come out [unclear: "during" / "through"] the service. And, uh, you know, I just, when I did see some people, I began firing on them. But I was, I was really terrified, though. I mean, I was scared while I was sitting there, or kneeling there. I'd taken a large nail and drove it into a post, a telephone pole, and then put some socks on it to have something to rest the, the rifle on, you know, which was kind of crude. You know, I really didn't need anything to rest the rifle on. I just, I was a very inexperienced shooter, too, at that time. I just started my mission that was in early, you know, '77, so I really didn't know how to shoot that well. I later began practicing a whole lot over the next three years and became a much better shot, but at that point in time, I could barely hit the broadside of a barn. I just learned how to shoot well enough to hit somebody.

Tom O'Neill: Did you realize you had hit somebody?

Joseph Paul Franklin: I couldn't really, I think I did see, I didn't actually see the guy being hit, but I saw the reaction of somebody else who was standing next to him that appeared to indicate he is looking down at somebody, you know. I didn't even stop long enough to look at him, and then I fired some other shells, several other bullets, randomly in that direction, you know. And, uh, on those other bullets that I had, I knew I'd hit one guy. However, I'd planned to use all the bullets and hit several others, you know, but I just couldn't do it, you know, whether it was fear or what. I mean, I was just, I know I was, you know, very afraid, you know what I mean. I don't know why, just terrified sitting there by that synagogue waiting. And, uh, you know, instead of actually putting this, you know, putting the crosshairs on anybody and firing again like I did with the first guy, I just fired about four or five bullets just, you know, just out there, not really intending to hit anybody. And luckily they didn't hit anybody. But my plan was just to empty the gun, to make it look good, I guess. Then I just dropped the gun, jumped on a bicycle that I had planned to use to escape, so no one would see what type of car I was driving, got to the car and just, you know, ditched the bicycle.

Tom O'Neill: Did you feel any remorse at that point, or what did you feel after?

Joseph Paul Franklin: Well, not at that point in time. I really didn't have any other feelings in my mind other than fear. You know, just a real strong feeling of fear, you know. And then it didn't lessen after I committed the crime, 'cause then I was afraid I would be caught by the police. I had not committed very many crimes. I was pretty inexperienced in that type of thing. I wasn't like a professional criminal. So I was just afraid, you know, mostly afraid at that time, and was just wanting to get away, you know.

Tom O'Neill: So what, uh, what about now, years later? Do you, how do you feel about looking back at it?

Joseph Paul Franklin: Yeah, I think it was a terrible thing to do, a terrible crime to commit against some people at a house of worship. It was just a, I've got no excuse for it. All I can say is I was mentally ill. I mean, it was just a really, you know, bad thing to do to somebody, you know what I mean? I regret it very much, and wish I could undo it, or at least try to make amends to the people now, you know. Of course, if I get executed, I wouldn't be able to do even that, but I just feel, feel bad about it, you know. So.

Tom O'Neill: Now, you've been linked or connected somehow, in different ways, to like 15 to, to 20 killings. Is, is that accurate, do you think?

Joseph Paul Franklin: Uh, well, I really don't want to go into, into any numbers at this point in time. I'd rather just focus on this case, if that's all right with you.

Tom O'Neill: That's, that's all right. What do you think, do you think it was then the, the Nazi thing that fueled the, the hate? I know you hated Jews and Blacks. Was that basically it?

Joseph Paul Franklin: Yeah. I would have never become anti-Jewish if I had not read Mein Kampf. That is a fact. I don't think anybody could argue with that. Plus the party publications, you know, what was published by the Nazi Party, their monthly newspaper, White Power: anti-Black, anti-Jewish, too. So it was basically just what I was reading and allowing into my mind, without being able to, without the knowledge necessary to refute any of the statements that were made. I just, when you're 18 years old, you don't have a whole lot of knowledge, you know, and, and 19. So I just did not know, I didn't know how to contradict what Hitler was saying in Mein Kampf. I didn't know other things, so I basically just accepted what he was saying as truth, you know.

Joseph Paul Franklin: But I used to get a real funny feeling, though, after reading Mein Kampf. I don't know why that was. I've never had that feeling with any other book before. But after I would sit that book down and finish reading it, I would just really get this real odd feeling in my mind, you know what I mean? I don't know if it was something like some kind of psychic thing or what, but it was just a real odd feeling. And it was that book that, that ruined my life, messed up my life.

Tom O'Neill: What, what started the, the feelings toward the Blacks?

Joseph Paul Franklin: Uh, mainly this, reading a whole lot of newspaper articles about Black crime, you know, and they would focus on that in White Power newspaper, any Black-on-white crimes, and it just became something I was constantly obsessed with and thinking about.

Tom O'Neill: Well, uh, and this is, and, uh, I didn't know if, apparently Larry Flynt had filed this lawsuit to try to block your execution.

Joseph Paul Franklin: Right, I heard about that.

Tom O'Neill: What's, uh, what's that about, do you think? Although you were, you were never tried for his shooting, I don't believe.

Joseph Paul Franklin: I was never tried for it, nope.

Tom O'Neill: But you did, you admitted that you had shot...

Joseph Paul Franklin: I admitted it, yeah. Yeah. And I admit it today: I was wrong to, to try to shoot Larry Flynt. It was the wrong thing to do, another terrible crime.

Tom O'Neill: What, what's his lawsuit about?

Joseph Paul Franklin: Yeah, I regret shooting Larry Flynt, too. Uh, well, I haven't really, only thing I know is about an article. I mean, you probably have access to the Internet and know more about it than I do.

Tom O'Neill: Yeah, I just [unclear: "said" / "that"] he was trying to block it because of who was supposed to administer the drugs, I believe.

Joseph Paul Franklin: Yeah.

Tom O'Neill: Why would he want to block it, do you think?

Joseph Paul Franklin: Uh, he doesn't believe in the death penalty, because it's administered so unfairly. He's a big supporter of the American Civil Liberties Union, and they're opposed to the death penalty. There's a whole lot of bad things about having a, a death penalty in a society such as this, you know what I mean? It's a lot different from biblical times, you know, when they had, when the Lord authorized them to kill people as punishment for things. You know, for example, for adultery, people could be stoned and killed for adultery. You know, imagine what would it be like in America if they went around and killed everybody they caught committing adultery in this, in this country. How many people you think would be, you would probably see bodies laying in the street every day, you know. The morgues would be packed, you know. They, they wouldn't be able to hold all the bodies if they went by biblical law now, in regards to, started stoning people who committed adultery. So you can't really say we need that because that's the way it was in the Bible. Completely different society, you know.

Joseph Paul Franklin: And another bad thing about this, having a death penalty in this society, is you're at a much greater advantage if you've got a lot of that [unclear: "guilt" / "gilt"] money, you know what I mean? If I had a dream team like O.J. Simpson had from the beginning, if I'd, you know, had the money to, to afford lawyers like that, I not only would not be on death row now, I would be on the streets now. As incredible as that sounds, I could have got out and be walking the streets a free man today if I'd have had that money.

Tom O'Neill: Do you think you deserve to be out on the streets?

Joseph Paul Franklin: Uh, well, what do you mean by, what do you mean by that?

Tom O'Neill: [unclear: "Ex..."] I mean, do you think you would have been, do you think you deserve to be out on the streets, after admitting to, to killing this, this man in Richmond Heights?

Joseph Paul Franklin: Well, I think it's a terrible thing, and, you know, I, to tell you the truth, I really would like to be out on the streets. I'll just say that, you know, answer your question that way. I would love to be out on the streets right now so I can make up for some of the stuff, the wrong things that I did previously, you know. It would be a good chance for me to try to cancel out, you know, all the bad karma that I generated from committing those violent crimes, you know. And killing people is wrong. It's, it's, it's violent, you know. Any kind of violence like that is wrong.

Tom O'Neill: Yeah.

Joseph Paul Franklin: I can tell you for a fact it isn't good. And the state wants to commit violence to, to the inmates, uh, who are, uh, who've been convicted of these crimes on death row, and, uh, you know, two wrongs don't make a right, you know that.

Tom O'Neill: Yeah, yeah.

Joseph Paul Franklin: And it's just not a good thing. The Bible teaches that when a person has repented, you know, and I'm talking about somebody who is sincere, sincerely repents, not like a lot of inmates who, uh, claim to be Christians just so they'll get out. I've met many like that, and most of the inmates I've met fall in that category, just basically a bunch of phonies, you know what I mean? Even a lot of Muslims the same way, a bunch of phonies. Although there are some who are sincere, and their embrace, embracing of Christianity has helped them, made them better people. But they haven't changed inside, though, you know. It hasn't been anything internal, just on the surface. The same with Muslims and various other people, you know, organizations, denominations. But, you know, I've changed a whole lot over, over the, over the years, so I think, you know, I would be able to do a lot of good on the outside.

Tom O'Neill: How do you, how would you describe the Joseph Franklin today, compared to the one back 30 years ago?

Joseph Paul Franklin: Man, it's like a completely different person, that you wouldn't even recognize. You would think it was somebody else, except for the name, you know. Uh, that was not my true self that day at that synagogue, shooting at people, you know. I'm just, I would be very opposed to any, anybody doing, like that, doing, committing a crime like that. And, uh, it would actually make me angry to hear about somebody committing a crime that way, of, of that type. So just, I've just grown and changed so much, you know. It's, I, sometime, sometimes I'm surprised myself at how much I've changed over the years. And I've actually made an effort to change, too, you know. I haven't just been sitting around hoping I would change. I've made a, a lot of effort to change, and it's just, it's just like the difference between day and, day and night, the type of person I was then and the type of person I am now.

Tom O'Neill: If you had a chance to...

Joseph Paul Franklin: Knowledge has helped out a lot. I've acquired a whole lot of knowledge since I've been locked up, kind of focused on that. It's basically part of my religion, to acquire knowledge.

Tom O'Neill: So you feel like that religion has helped you, then?

Joseph Paul Franklin: I already know it has. It seems to me that's pretty much the only, only thing that can help a person. Unless the Lord is helping you and guiding you and drawing you to him, you ain't ever going to change, you know. That, that is a fact. Most of these inmates, at least 95 percent, I would say, or probably more, are totally incorrigible. They never change. But there's a saying: when God saves you, he changes you, you know, and only he can change you. So I've changed a whole lot over, you know, the past 30 years or so, you know.

Tom O'Neill: If you had had a chance, uh, to say something to the, the Gordon family...

Joseph Paul Franklin: Yeah.

Tom O'Neill: ...what, what would you say?

Joseph Paul Franklin: Well, I actually thought at one time of writing to them, when I was at the St. Louis County Jail. Uh, [unclear: "Lee Langford" / "Lee Lenford"] come over there to talk to me one evening, you know. That was nice of him, you know. So we sat out there and talked through the glass on telephones, like you and I are doing now. But I said, you know, "Well, I've got Sheila Gordon's address," because, you know, the name was on the witness list, and I was representing myself. "I'd like to write the lady and apologize to her," you know. But he told me, "Don't do it. Don't, don't write to her," you know. So I never did. I guess he thought I would scare her, you know. She would think I was stalking her or something like that. So I didn't write, but I really wanted to, and I've wanted to all these years, to correspond with them, you know. I was just wishing that they would reach out, somebody from the synagogue would contact me, you know, and ask for an apology. But nobody did.

Tom O'Neill: Yeah.

Joseph Paul Franklin: But I would apologize to her right now, tell her I'm sorry for the horrible crime that I committed, and ask for her forgiveness, you know. That's what I would say to Mrs. Gordon now. I really feel for her. I also, uh, I talked with, uh, I did not talk with Mrs. Gordon, but I, I talked with the young man who was having his bar mitzvah that day.

Tom O'Neill: Yeah.

Joseph Paul Franklin: I feel, you know, [unclear: "feel he's pretty traumatized by all that" / "I feel sorry that I'm a ties by all"].

Tom O'Neill: Yeah, I can imagine.

Joseph Paul Franklin: Yeah, it's a horrible thing for a young, young lad like that, you know, when he's going through his bar mitzvah, you know. But I was so mentally ill and crazy. I just, that's the type of thing I, you know, was led into, you know, through Nazism.

Tom O'Neill: Do you, do you think, uh, you deserve to die?

Joseph Paul Franklin: Uh, well, to tell you the truth, I actually think I do. Yeah. To be quite honest with you, I, I cannot defend any, I cannot say no to that question.

Tom O'Neill: That's a tough thing to face, isn't it?

Joseph Paul Franklin: Yeah, yeah, it is.

Tom O'Neill: But you think there's still a chance this will be stayed?

Joseph Paul Franklin: Uh, yeah, well, you know, there's, there's always a possibility, I guess, that, you know, I could get a stay of execution. But people tell me I might, you know. You know, a few people have encouraged, tried to [unclear: "encourage" / "discourage"] me that way, so, you know, I just hope that they're right, you know. A friend of mine told me, well, she said, "Well, I [unclear: "don't think" / "do think"] you'll get a stay." I said, "What do you base that on?" She said she just has this gut feeling. And like I say, I hope she's right. That would be a good thing. I could then have a chance to atone for, make amends for a lot of the stuff I've done, in whatever way I could, you know. I think that would really be a good thing, too.

Tom O'Neill: Do you think the religion that, that you speak of, and, and your, uh, relationship with, with God, has taken away the hate for Jews and Blacks?

Joseph Paul Franklin: Absolutely. Yeah, it sure has, yeah, you know. And, uh, I got interested in the world religions back during the late '80s, at the federal penitentiary at Marion. I know I've told this to a lot of people, so you probably heard it, too.

Tom O'Neill: I, I read something where you had studied some things.

Joseph Paul Franklin: Huh? Yeah. I've got into the world religions, began studying them: Hinduism, Wicca, Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism and various others. You know, I just became fascinated with the religion when I was at the federal penitentiary at Marion. And, uh, you know, I found out that a lot of the world religions actually have a lot in common. It's amazing how much they have in common. If you learn, if you study one religion and learn about it, it helps you to understand your own religion. So it's a really good thing to study other religions other than your own, and not stick just with that one religion, you know. You can learn stuff from other types of religion, just like you can learn a lot of things from meeting other people from other countries and other cultures, you know. Learn a lot from them.

Tom O'Neill: Okay. Well, I think, uh, apparently you didn't, didn't have that kind of upbringing. You weren't introduced to religion as a child, so...

Joseph Paul Franklin: Well, [unclear: "doesn't sound like it" / "doesn't sound like"]. I actually had, you know, was involved in religion quite a bit when I was a kid, you know, and really the only person in my family who was, you know. And, uh, when I was 15, I became involved with Herbert W. Armstrong's Worldwide Church of God, headquartered in Pasadena, California. Him and his son, Garner Ted Armstrong, were the leaders of the church. You might remember them from the '60s. They had a radio broadcast from coast to coast, off the coast of England, you know. They had the pirate stations there, because they wouldn't allow anything but the BBC in England. But they taught a form of British Israelism, and I used to actually observe the Sabbath and all the holy days and stuff like that, and, you know, would not eat pork and other unclean meats, even when I was a teenager. You know, we were given a calendar, a Hebrew calendar, with all the names of the months, you know: Nisan, Iyar, Sivan, Tammuz, [unclear: "Av, Elul" / "Abilu" / "Abu"], all the names of the months of the year, written in Hebrew, you know. And I memorized them at that time. So I had, you know, I was more into religion when I was growing up than most inmates are now, you know what I mean? Most of them have never darkened the door of a church before.

Tom O'Neill: Yeah.

Joseph Paul Franklin: You know, so. But I went astray, and that's how I wound up here. You know, it was my punishment from the Lord.

Tom O'Neill: Well, I appreciate you taking the time to talk with us.

Joseph Paul Franklin: It's been nice talking to you, Mr. O'Neill. And, uh, you're, you're Tom O'Neill?

Tom O'Neill: Yes.

Joseph Paul Franklin: Okay. One of the gentlemen who works here recognized you and told me your name before I got up here.

Tom O'Neill: Yeah. Yeah. We're with Fox 2.

Joseph Paul Franklin: So I had, uh, I was...

Tom O'Neill: Appreciate you talking with us.

Joseph Paul Franklin: Not a problem.

Tom O'Neill: Is there anything else you want to say? Is there anything else that you would like to say to me or anyone else?

Joseph Paul Franklin: Well, uh, Larry Flynt for president. [Laughter] To tell you the truth, I mean, I liked what he said about me, you know, trying to keep, stop my execution, you know. But really, I really think, seriously, I've thought about this, you know, Larry is pretty much interested in politics, you know. I think he would make a better president of the United States than Obama and a lot of the politicians in Washington today, you know. I don't think he would allow Gitmo to stay open. He would close that immediately with an executive order. Uh, he wouldn't be killing innocent men, women and children with drones over there in Pakistan like Obama's doing now, you know. I think he would make, I think, you know, believe it or not, I think Larry Flynt would make a great president of the United States.