"They Can't Prosecute a Dead Man": Israel Keyes and the FBI, June 7, 2012

Name: "They Can't Prosecute a Dead Man": Israel Keyes and the FBI, June 7, 2012
Uploaded: 2013-08-13
Duration: 57 min 33 s
Description: The day before the first anniversary of the Curriers' disappearance, a federal prosecutor asked Israel Keyes for a single name, that of a person in New York. Keyes refused, and said he might keep the rest of what he knew until the end.

The day before the first anniversary of the Curriers' disappearance, a federal prosecutor asked Israel Keyes for a single name, that of a person in New York. Keyes refused, and said he might keep the rest of what he knew until the end.

Subject: Israel Keyes
Recorded: June 7, 2012
Runtime: 57:33

Content warning: Concerns a man who murdered at least three people; the murders are referred to but not described. Contains strong language.

The Interview

On Thursday, June 7, 2012, Israel Keyes was brought to the FBI's Anchorage office for another of the sessions he had been giving since his arrest in March. With FBI Special Agent Steve Payne and Anchorage Police Officer Jeff Bell was Assistant U.S. Attorney Kevin Feldis, who said he had been "back east" the week before and had news of his talks with other U.S. Attorney's offices. Agent Payne reminded Keyes that the Samantha Koenig case could not be discussed, read him his rights, and Keyes waived them and declined to have his standby counsel present. The session lasts just under an hour, with a short break.

Historical Context

Keyes, a 34-year-old building contractor from Anchorage, abducted Samantha Koenig, 18, from the coffee stand where she worked on February 1, 2012, and killed her. He was arrested in Lufkin, Texas, on March 13, 2012, after using her debit card. Returned to Alaska, he confessed to her murder and, in later interviews, to the murders of Bill and Lorraine Currier, who disappeared from their home in Essex, Vermont, in June 2011, and described other killings. The FBI believes he may have killed 11 people. He took his own life in the Anchorage Correctional Complex on the night of December 1 to 2, 2012, before he could be tried.

Circumstances of the Interview

By June the investigators and prosecutors had a plan, laid out a month earlier by Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo, under which Keyes would give information about other crimes and the U.S. Attorney's Office would work with other jurisdictions to keep his cases out of the press and move them quickly. Vermont had sent a letter, which Feldis calls "pretty amazing"; Keyes points out that its fine print let Vermont "reassume control". The next day, June 8, was the first anniversary of the Curriers' disappearance, and Feldis says he wanted to be able to tell Vermont that Keyes was still cooperating before the press attention that day.

What the Interview Covers

Feldis and Bell tell Keyes the investigation has stalled and set out two paths: "plan A", in which he keeps giving information a little at a time and the Vermont prosecutors stay on board, and "plan B", in which Vermont charges him itself, on its own timetable and in public. Keyes says he will not give more until he finds out "what my options are" on other issues, and that "once I give out the information, then it's, uh, it's gone". He calls the Currier case "essentially a closed case" and says he would probably plead guilty if indicted for it. He raises the idea of giving everything "a last-minute kind of thing. So I'm not around for the aftermath", and later says of the other states: "they can't prosecute a dead man". Feldis asks for "the name of the person in New York" as "half a card", offering lunch and a cigar in return; Keyes refuses ("It's not half a card"). He says his concern is keeping things "under wraps for the duration of my incarceration" and that it would be better if his name "wasn't attached to it from here till eternity". The session ends with an agreement to meet again the following week.

What Makes the Recording Significant

The interview shows the bargaining at the centre of Keyes's custody: investigators trying to draw out information about other victims, and Keyes rationing it in exchange for speed, control of publicity and, by his account, his own end. It is one of the clearest recorded statements of his idea of withholding what he knew until the last minute. Alaska Dispatch (now part of the Anchorage Daily News), reporting the release of the audio of this and 12 other sessions in April 2013, noted that in this session Keyes came close to revealing the name of a victim in New York; he did not give it.

Archival Importance

Keyes died without trial, so his recorded interviews are the main record of his own account. This is one of the five Keyes sessions the FBI published, with transcripts, in August 2013, and this copy was posted by the FBI itself.

Important Caveats

What Keyes says about other killings, about a person in New York and about his own plans is his claim and was not verified in the session; the FBI has said it believes he may have had 11 victims, but no further victims have been identified by name from this interview. Under court restrictions the Koenig case is not discussed. The transcript was made from two machine readings (Whisper and YouTube's automatic captions), checked for speakers against the FBI's transcript; several passages remain unclear and are marked.

Israel Keyes: All right.

Special Agent Steve Payne: [unclear: "Can you use" / "Need to use"] the head or anything like that [unclear: "for me, sir" / "before we start"]?

Israel Keyes: No, I'm good.

Special Agent Steve Payne: All right, we'll run through the, uh, same stuff that we do, I think, pretty much every time on this. Uh, I know we covered some of this stuff in the jail, but we'll just run through it again. Uh, when we arrived this morning, did we interrupt a meeting with your attorney?

Israel Keyes: No.

Special Agent Steve Payne: Um, and you're here voluntarily, is that correct?

Israel Keyes: Yes.

Special Agent Steve Payne: Um, you understand we can't talk about anything [unclear: "with the snap to make investigation" / "we have to make an investigation"; probably "to do with the Samantha Koenig investigation"]. If you do start down that path, we'll have to stop the interview. We'll take you back to jail.

Israel Keyes: Yes.

Special Agent Steve Payne: Um, run through your Miranda rights here. Before we ask you any questions, you must understand your rights. Uh, you have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can be used against you in court. You have the right to talk to a lawyer for advice before we ask you any questions. You have the right to have a lawyer with you during questioning. If you cannot afford a lawyer, one will be appointed for you before any questioning if you wish. Uh, if you decide to answer questions now without a lawyer present, you have the right to stop answering at any time. Do you understand these rights as I'm explaining them to you?

Israel Keyes: Yes.

Special Agent Steve Payne: And with those rights in mind, are you willing to [unclear: "wait" / "waive them"] and speak with us here today?

Israel Keyes: Yes.

Special Agent Steve Payne: Um, as you know, you've got at least one standby attorney appointed, uh, in the discussion of other crimes, that type of thing. I believe it's Rich Curtner; it may also [include] Jacqueline Walsh. Um, do you have any desire to have either of those attorneys or any other attorney present today?

Israel Keyes: No.

Special Agent Steve Payne: Um, are you on any medications or any other substances?

Israel Keyes: No.

Special Agent Steve Payne: And are you having any difficulty understanding where you're at or what's going on?

Israel Keyes: No.

Special Agent Steve Payne: Okay. All right. Any questions before we get started?

Israel Keyes: Nope.

Special Agent Steve Payne: Okay. Um, we wanted to, uh, bring you over here today to give you a little bit of information about, uh, some things that are going on, but also to ask you, uh, kind of where you're at with things. It sounded like you're kind of frustrated with things. Um, I don't know if that's something you want to expand on at all.

Israel Keyes: Uh, just things haven't been happening for the last week. There were some things that I asked for information on, as well as... well, basically that was the gist of it. And, uh, haven't heard anything back. So, we'll see. I don't know. Supposedly within the next day or two I'm supposed to get a more comprehensive visit or information or something, but so far it hasn't happened.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Kevin Feldis: Well, we, you know, we're not talking anything about Samantha, but... and I've been back east last week. And they gave me a little bit of an update, Israel, but since I've been out of the loop, I wanted to come and see you, let you know maybe the conversations I've been having with the U.S. Attorney's offices. But before I do that, I just thought, same thing, same kind of question in relation to moving things forward. You know, where are you at, kind of, about all this? What's your take on this? You're not talking about what you're doing with other stuff, but where are you in regard to discussions we've been having?

Israel Keyes: Um, well, I'm the same place I've always been. Uh, I... I am, uh, obviously a little concerned about giving out a lot more information, especially over too short a period of time, until I find out where I stand on some other issues. So, um, it'd be nice if all these other issues would just, uh, work themselves out and resolve themselves the way I want them to without my coercion, but that's not going to happen. So, I've got to do what I've got to do.

Israel Keyes: Yeah, it would be a lot simpler if I, you know, just take certain steps so that I could expound upon that a little bit more, but, um, I'm not ready to do that yet. So, [unclear: "if I have to, I will" / "I have to go a little bit"]. But yeah, as far as discussing things about whether it's the Vermont case or, you know, things that happened prior to that, I think that, you know, it's probably still going to happen. I guess the reality sets in for me as to how much more time there is to pass before I may find out things I need to find out.

Officer Jeff Bell: And your feeling is, if you give us additional information, it's going to affect other things or not affect other things, or [unclear: "control over it"; probably "you lose control over it"]?

Israel Keyes: Yeah, it's, um, once I give out the information, then it's, uh, it's gone.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Kevin Feldis: Well, let me just jump in on that, because, you know, this is getting, um... I shouldn't say frustrating, but I can almost say it's getting depressing, right? You know, a little bit; maybe you feel the same way, that we... that you have been meeting with us now about other crimes for weeks and weeks and weeks. And, um, I think it's getting kind of just down[right] depressing that we are not moving forward, and it's... I don't think it's because... I'm not sure why it is. [unclear: "When you came in here" / "We came in here"] a month ago and laid out that plan that Frank Russo laid out, and, you know, because we've been kind of bending over backwards from the U.S. Attorney's Office perspective of saying, look, we're going to work with you, and we're going to move the other things forward that are going to need to be moved forward, all the other crimes, right? We all kind of understand that we're going to need to move forward.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Kevin Feldis: And so we thought you were on a schedule of wanting to move other crimes investigations forward. We know you want to keep the media down. We know you don't want to [be] charged [in] other jurisdictions. We know those things. We took them into account, and we came up with a strategy to say, "Well, let's move forward." And we really kind of busted ourselves to do that. So, we're getting kind of just, like I said, I should be saying frustrated, but I'll start with just kind of depressed about that we're not moving those things forward. And so, what's your view? What's your view on that?

Officer Jeff Bell: And the same with law enforcement. You know, this isn't typical [of how we'd] move forward with this type of investigation. And for us, it's frustrating, and we're doing it this way because this is the way that Israel wanted to do it.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Kevin Feldis: And what's your take, what's your take on our...

Israel Keyes: This isn't the way I wanted to do it.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Kevin Feldis: Well, just tell us, tell us what your take is on that.

Israel Keyes: Well, my take is, you know, I've said this before, even though we may at this point all want the same end results, um, it doesn't mean we're still... we're on the same team by any means, you know.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Kevin Feldis: We've always known that. We're not pretending.

Israel Keyes: I'm not, you know, I'm not, um... I understand that you've got your schedule, you've got your deadlines, you've got things you've got to get done. But honestly, that's of no concern to me. I, uh, if I can... if we can continue to work together and, uh, make stuff happen, great. If not, you know, if it's not going the way you want it to, or you're not getting your information fast enough, then, um, do what you've got to do, you know. But I already know you'll, you know, you'll be back.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Kevin Feldis: Well, and maybe, maybe we've been too honest with you, then, I guess. I mean, we're... we know that we're not on the same team. Well, yeah, because if you're saying... I mean, I think what you're saying is you're kind of challenging us, and I didn't think that's where we were in our discussion.

Israel Keyes: No, I'm not challenging you. I'm just saying, I know you've got your agenda, what you need to get done, and, uh, what you need to... you have to have something to show for it, for your work on this.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Kevin Feldis: Well, but it's sort of funny, because we thought it was your agenda that was kind of driving this, of wanting to move things quickly and wanting to keep the media [down], and, you know, that's why we've been working on kind of your agenda. That's why I'm like, wait a second, this is what Israel wanted.

Israel Keyes: No, I... you're right. I mean, it's... so far it has gone according to my agenda as much as it can. Um, the issue is, uh, there's still a lot of time that's going to pass before I get the things I want, and if I give up all my cards right away, then that's it. You know, I have no control over what happens a month from now or six months from now.

Special Agent Steve Payne: I guess I would respectfully disagree with that, because to the extent that, um, we demonstrate that the plan that we came up with collectively a month ago is working, then that is going to help you get the things that you want. And at this point we've only really been able to demonstrate that half of the plan is working. And frankly, that's our half. We did everything that we agreed to do, and you haven't done what you agreed to do.

Israel Keyes: First of all, I didn't agree to do anything [unclear: "today" / "but"]. I already told you that. So, you know, I told you I've got [a] different agenda now than when we came up with that plan, because of things that happened between then and now. So, you know, fine, I changed the rules. Shame on me. But, uh, that doesn't really change the bottom line. I'm not going to... I'm going to at least find out what my options are. And, uh, that hasn't happened yet. So, you know, I understand it put a hitch in the schedule, but, um, you know, that's not the only issue right now. There are some other, you know, other things that we can't talk about, and that's an issue with me, too. And I know that, um, you know, there's a lot of debate that these things aren't connected, but to a certain extent, for me and what happens to me in the end, they are pretty closely connected.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Kevin Feldis: Well, as we've said before, we won't talk to you about anything [inaudible] now. But if you want to request a meeting, right, and if that's what you guys decide, that's totally up to you and your counsel, right? And we'll make ourselves available, but we won't discuss them now.

Israel Keyes: No, I understand that.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Kevin Feldis: You know, you said you don't want to give up all your cards. We understand that. We haven't been asking you to do that. All your cards [inaudible]. Sure, we'd love it if you just said, "Yeah, I'm just going to tell you everything." Then, frankly, I would say things would move much more quickly in the end, because we'd be working on those and getting them all resolved and getting it all lined out the way we said, so that we can control it and you would control it. I would love that, right? You know that. But I'm not... I won't even ask you that today. I'm not going to say, "Israel, you know, tell me everything you can." I think it would be in your best interest, but you don't see it that way. Fine. You know, I get it. Um, I would ask you to think about that.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Kevin Feldis: But, um, we've got to start, we've got to start the process, because, you know, everything takes a little bit of time, and we can move it quickly. But, you know, like I said before, are we going to be sitting here a year from now? We've all agreed no, but now a month has gone by. So now we only got 11 months down, you know, and am I going to be saying next month we got 10 months to go? Uh, because we all agreed we weren't going to be sitting here [at] the end of the year doing this. So, uh, you know...

Israel Keyes: Believe me, I'm very aware, well aware of [the] passage of time. So, um, I, uh, I have my own definite agenda on that issue, but as I said, I don't have a lot of control over it. So...

Assistant U.S. Attorney Kevin Feldis: But I think you have more than you think. [In] other words, you can... you discuss the other crimes with us, and that moves things forward. That's under your control, right? But you only decide what you want to tell us. You, sitting here today, control what you tell us. We then control what we do with it. And I think, and we've demonstrated to you, and you know, it's in our best interest to control it.

Israel Keyes: For now, yeah. I... no, I understand. I understand where we're at right now. In order for things to progress, I... I have to take a guess as to what's going to happen next, I guess you could say. Um, which is, I don't know. Yeah, there's a lot of things that could happen, even with the information I've already given you. There's a lot of things that can happen.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Kevin Feldis: It's all... it's your schedule. You know, I think you said it was our schedule; it's really your schedule, and that we've been trying to work on. So, we can sit here and guess and wonder what's going to happen in the future, and none of us are going to predict, right? Whatever happens is going to happen. But the only thing you can control is what we're doing right now. We have a definite, concrete, certain way that we can move forward now that will definitely expedite whatever happens down the line, because, as you know, you know, we've got all these other [unclear: "cars"; probably "crimes"] to talk about. [unclear: "We definitely explain certain" / "That's an exponential. Certainly"; probably "It will definitely expedite, it's certain if"] we start now. Everything else is just speculation. So we can wait and see, but time's going to move by.

Israel Keyes: Yeah. No, I see what you're saying. It's like the ultimate goal. If that is the ultimate goal, that I put all this stuff out on the table, then yeah, then it's better to do it now. But that's... I haven't decided yet that that's my ultimate goal. Certainly [unclear: "not on these terms" / "on these terms"]. Um, you know, like I say, there's certain information that I've already given you. So, um, so what happens with that, you know, I've already given up control of that to a certain extent. But, uh, everything I still have, you know, that's... it's still within my power to decide how that information gets to you, or maybe you, as a [unclear: "matter" / "manner"] of speaking.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Kevin Feldis: Exactly. And then what I'm suggesting to you is, you've got a lot of cards to play, and you respect that, but we're asking you to play one more, one more card, and I think that's in your best interest. I'm not telling you that because, you know, [of] what I think you want [to] hear. I've been using your goals all along.

Israel Keyes: Well, it's not in my best interest today, because there's absolutely nothing I gain from it. Just more worries...

Assistant U.S. Attorney Kevin Feldis: [unclear: "Figure out what happens" / "But you've got to"]. You move the ball forward.

Israel Keyes: Forward to what, though? I don't... there's no... there's no objective that I'm moving towards by giving you more information.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Kevin Feldis: When talking about the other crimes, the Curriers, let's just use... we're using the Curriers. We're investigating that. We've agreed certain things with the Curriers, and we've [unclear: "looked up to them"; probably "lived up to them"], right? And so your objective of that, I think, remains the same. Keep it out of the media, right? [Don't have them] charge you. So we're trying to further those... I mean, that's only one of the objectives, I think.

Israel Keyes: But that's an indefinite objective. That's... I mean, the Curriers, that's essentially a closed case. I've given you all the information you need on it, and I'll continue giving you the information you need. And if it ever goes [to] me being indicted for it, then I'll probably, you know, plead guilty to everything. And so that's, you know, you achieve your objective in that, and I, yes, I got some things out of it. So it's a closed issue. But anything else we discuss beyond that, then that's, um... objectives, my objectives are hazy at best. I don't really have any objectives. Like, yeah, I have concerns about it, but, um, until I decide whether those concerns are legitimate, or whether I have anything else I want to get out of that information, then there's no reason for me to talk about it.

Israel Keyes: Especially not at this point, because, I mean, really, in the scope of the situation that I'm in, not really that much time has gone by. I mean, I still... I don't even have answers on stuff that we were talking about months ago. I mean, that's... I don't have those answers yet.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Kevin Feldis: Are you talking about discussions that we've been having about other [unclear: "times"; probably "crimes"], if you don't have answers to something?

Israel Keyes: Uh, partially. Yeah.

Officer Jeff Bell: [From] us?

Israel Keyes: That's not, uh, you know, like I say, there's some things that, you know, we can't talk about, and... but yeah, there's... [unclear: "either here or there" / "we need to get over there"; probably "neither here nor there"]. It'll happen. It's just...

Officer Jeff Bell: [unclear: "Can you talk about" / "You were talking about"] deciding how ultimately the information would get from you to us, and how, besides you just telling us how...

Israel Keyes: Right, that's another issue, too, is, [unclear: "I may have some options" / "I may not have some options"] as far as that goes, how to get you at least some information without, uh...

Assistant U.S. Attorney Kevin Feldis: Oh, and that's what we tried to give you. We tried to give you that ability.

Officer Jeff Bell: That was our idea.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Kevin Feldis: The plan was, you tell us, you know, where in New York, so we can work with them, get their assurances, and [start] those processes. But we can move forward. It doesn't [unclear: "take a dozen months"]...

Israel Keyes: Well... no, I'm not, I'm not on New York's attorney's schedule, or anybody else's.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Kevin Feldis: This was Israel Keyes's schedule. That's what I thought, it was your schedule.

Israel Keyes: No, I don't have a schedule.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Kevin Feldis: [It] was different from what I understood, because you told us, "I want [to move] quickly, I want to keep..."

Israel Keyes: Yeah, you're talking about my ultimate schedule. Yeah, but that's a ways off right now. So, I'm just saying, like, week to week, month to month, I don't have a schedule right now. I don't have anything to gain from it.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Kevin Feldis: I thought you did have a schedule. When you say a ways off, now I don't know what you're talking about, because month to month is what's happening now, basically. We've gone from moving at a fairly, you know, reasonable pace to being month to month, and six months is going to pass, and then a year is going to pass, and then a year and a half and two years, you know. And I'm offering you an opportunity now to move that more quickly, and I'd like to start with... not even start; I'd just like to move forward on New York, because it's going to move everything, the pace of everything, which is what I know you want. If you tell me differently, you say, "I don't care how long anything takes anymore," then I understand that's different.

Israel Keyes: No, I do, I do care about how long things take. First of all, I don't know what time has to do with any of the crime... any information that I give you, because if you think I want to be indicted or charged with any other crimes, then you're wrong.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Kevin Feldis: I mean, you told us. We're trying to avoid that, right? By control[ling it].

Israel Keyes: So I don't understand how giving information is going to...

Assistant U.S. Attorney Kevin Feldis: Well, let's just, let's just say, what happens if, um, if Vermont said, as you know, "We thought this guy was cooperating." What if they were to say, "We're going to charge him"? So they need to charge him in...

Israel Keyes: Well, they're going to have to wait their turn, aren't they?

Assistant U.S. Attorney Kevin Feldis: What? But how... so how long is that going to take, right? That's what I'm trying to say.

Israel Keyes: That's what my concern is.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Kevin Feldis: Yeah. So right now, they're not... not charging. But what do you think? Explain to me: what do you think would happen if they do charge? If, you know, we say Israel just says, "You guys do whatever you've got to do," and then they were to go forward and they lose control, what do you think would happen with that?

Israel Keyes: Well, I assume... I don't know for sure. I assume there's a few different things that could happen, none of which are good for me, from my perspective.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Kevin Feldis: So that's what I'm trying to tell you, you know, is that working with your goals seems to be in your best interest, to move forward with New York, to have Vermont [unclear: "go in charge" / "not going to charge"; probably "not charge"], because [if] Vermont charges, that...

Israel Keyes: Well, statistically, that makes things less likely to go my way, because the more attorneys, the more crimes that are involved in this, the more likely it is that one of the states is going to get fed up and say, [unclear: "we're on"]...

Assistant U.S. Attorney Kevin Feldis: You know, we've already, we've already demonstrated to you what we can do and explained how it works [unclear: "from RN" / "for New York"; probably "from our end"], because I don't think Vermont... Vermont could take as long as they want to take [if] they charge. You know, they can take their case as long as they want to take it. And, you know, what happens then? To your goals? What happens to your goals if...

Israel Keyes: I assume that puts me in limbo until they get their crack at me. I've heard of that happening before. I don't...

Assistant U.S. Attorney Kevin Feldis: So, do you want that?

Israel Keyes: Of course I don't want that. You already know what I want.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Kevin Feldis: Well, that's why, what... I guess we're just miscommunicating, because I thought that's what I understood, and that's why we've offered you this plan, to control how things progress with Vermont, and just using New York as the neighboring state, right? So we've got a way to control things. Now, if we all say, "That's not going to work, do what you want," then we don't control. They're going to take as long as they take [in] Vermont, you know. And I'm sure they'll be talking to New York then. And [unclear: "what's like then"] we don't control it, right?

Israel Keyes: Right. No, I accepted the fact that we don't control... none of us control what happens in Vermont.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Kevin Feldis: Well, I think we... I thought...

Israel Keyes: [Or] you do.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Kevin Feldis: I thought this letter that they sent was, uh, was pretty amazing.

Israel Keyes: It was good.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Kevin Feldis: It was [a] pretty amazing thing. And we, you know, we really worked at this, and they're with us. But if they go away, then they do whatever they've got to do, as long as that takes, and [unclear: "I really care what Israel's opinion is"; probably "they don't really care what Israel's opinion is"]. And then New York comes to them, their neighbors, and says, "Neighbor, you know, we've got a problem in New York." Vermont says, "Well, your problem is our problem. We're simpatico together. We all got problems." And this is... now Israel has no control. And that's what I was trying to avoid, based upon what you told me from the get-go, and you've been honest about your goals. But now I'm like, well, right, why are we misunderstanding?

Israel Keyes: The fine, the fine print in that letter is that at their directive they can reassume control. At your directive. You... I mean, all you have to do is say, "Well, he's not giving us any more information. Do what you've got to do."

Assistant U.S. Attorney Kevin Feldis: Did you expect something different? [unclear: "You're like, oh, there's something else we can do"]...

Israel Keyes: I don't know what I [expected].

Assistant U.S. Attorney Kevin Feldis: There's nothing else we can do. We can't make... they would never sign something.

Officer Jeff Bell: They would never agree to it.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Kevin Feldis: They're never going to agree to something that says...

Israel Keyes: I understand that. So, so I know I don't have any rights in this situation. All I have is information. So now you're upset with me that I want to control the information.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Kevin Feldis: No, I'm not, I'm not upset, you know, upset with you. I said I'm... I started [by] saying, you know, it's more depressing, and yeah, there's frustration.

Israel Keyes: But, I mean, there's going to be a lot of frustration before this is all over. But, I mean, it's already been years of frustration for a lot of people. So they're going to have to learn to live with it for a little [longer].

Assistant U.S. Attorney Kevin Feldis: But that's a different... that's a different issue. The frustration and the depression is based upon what you['re] getting, what you want, and I'm thinking from Israel, what he wants on his time frame. And I've just explained to you what I foresee would happen if the cooperation breaks down on the Curriers, and we just said we don't want that, because we don't want Vermont to take over and take as long as they want and talk to New York and do whatever. We don't want that. So, what are all these... there's two choices, it seems like.

Israel Keyes: Yeah, I don't... I don't know how... like I say, that's one of the issues I'm waiting to hear back on, is what is the most likely path that Vermont would take. Um, because obviously I've got other problems right now. So, uh, so I don't know what their hypothetical timeline could be if they get fed up and decide to go their own way on that. I don't know that. I'm not a lawyer. So... yeah, like I said, I'm sure there could be a whole range of things that could happen with the information that I've already [given].

Assistant U.S. Attorney Kevin Feldis: Well, normally, normally, you know, state prosecutions or other federal prosecutions don't move that quickly. So, right, we know that if Vermont charges, it's going to be a lengthy process, and they're going to get in touch with New York, [and] New York's [going to], you know, have their input about what Vermont does as well, and they're neighboring states, and they work together, and they're going to say, "Hey, Israel had his chance; Alaska had its chance. They said that they were moving forward." You know, this is not... this is... I'm just trying to [unclear: "land to" / "look after"; probably "lay out"] what I foresee related to the [unclear: "curry country" / "way it's encouraged"; probably "Curriers"]. That's, that's alternative B, as far as I'm concerned. Alternative A was following on the path you've been following. So, doing nothing is a choice. Doing nothing is basically saying, "I choose alternative B," which is the longer road and less control.

Officer Jeff Bell: You know, I think A and B go hand in hand for law enforcement. I've told you many times what option B for law enforcement is. And I know you say we'll be back, and you may be right. But at some point in time, when people see that there's an impasse, then they're going to say, "Well, let's try it. You may be right. Maybe we're not going to find anything, but we have to look." We wouldn't be doing due diligence if we didn't try, right, with the investigative leads that we do have. So...

Assistant U.S. Attorney Kevin Feldis: So, A or B?

Officer Jeff Bell: And I know you... I mean, the B is huge, public, media and public-wise, and I just don't want to damage any relationship that we have if we have to go with plan B.

Israel Keyes: Well, I mean, if that's your only option...

Officer Jeff Bell: It's not. I mean, it's not our only option right now, right? We have plan A, we thought.

Israel Keyes: Yeah.

Officer Jeff Bell: I mean, you realize that... you realize that this isn't going the way... this isn't going like a normal investigation. There's certain things we would do in this type of situation that we're not doing, right? You know, and all those are very public and very unpleasant, and...

Israel Keyes: Well, I mean, yeah, you're right. I mean, if that's, if that's what it's come down to, it's like either I give you information today or you go your own way with it, and that's what it's come down to. You do what you've got to do, because I'm not, I'm not giving up any more information [unclear: "so I find out" / "till I find out"] what's going on. A couple more issues.

Officer Jeff Bell: When do you foresee that kind of thing happening?

Israel Keyes: Well, if it doesn't happen this week, then there's going to be another meeting.

Officer Jeff Bell: So are you telling us that we should... that we can... next week sometime, we can hold off and next week sometime re... re... address this issue?

Israel Keyes: Yeah, [you'll] hear one way or the other next week.

Officer Jeff Bell: I mean, is that something that we... I can go and say he's got some issues that he's working through?

Israel Keyes: Well, those [are] the same issues [we] talked about last time. It's just nothing's happened. So... [31:58] I'm hesitant to, uh, um, tackle all the issues on [my own]. I thought I was going to have some assistance, but...

Assistant U.S. Attorney Kevin Feldis: And if you want assistance, I mean, judge, everybody's told you, you get whatever assistance you want, and that's your business. We're not going to just... I want to be really clear: that is up to you, and that's your choice. Do that. We all want to make sure you have every opportunity to do that. So if you want that, do it. That's your business.

Israel Keyes: No, I...

Assistant U.S. Attorney Kevin Feldis: That's clear. We've just been coming to you, being honest about where we are in the process. No one has laid down an [unclear: "ultimate"; probably "ultimatum"]. [We're] trying to avoid that.

Israel Keyes: No, I... that's good. That's what I want to avoid, too. It's just...

Assistant U.S. Attorney Kevin Feldis: I just thought if I came in here and...

Officer Jeff Bell: You can see we're not... I mean, we're telling you that. You're smart enough. You know that it is what it is. What I'm telling you, what he's telling you, is [the] reality of this. You know, I mean, we're not...

Israel Keyes: Yep. [33:12] Oh, I was...

Assistant U.S. Attorney Kevin Feldis: Well, what do you want to talk about today?

Israel Keyes: [unclear: "It's been that" / "It's familiar"; probably "I've just been thinking that"] hypothetically, [unclear: "that's out" / "just throughout, for me"; probably "the best route for me"], [to] give you all the information you need [might be], like, a last-minute kind of thing. So I'm not around for the aftermath.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Kevin Feldis: Well, do you think that's realistic?

Israel Keyes: Do I think it's realistic? I don't know. It seems to me like that would kind of be my call or not.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Kevin Feldis: Well, but, I mean, like I said, if [unclear: "a man"; probably "Vermont"] goes forward, it's not going to be [your or] our call. They don't, they don't have any reason to move [at] your pace.

Israel Keyes: Yeah, I know.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Kevin Feldis: You know what I mean? And right now, we've been working together, so...

Israel Keyes: Well, I know...

Assistant U.S. Attorney Kevin Feldis: I kind of doubt [unclear: "the model"; probably "Vermont"] is going to, well, play that game. I doubt they're going to... I mean, I'm telling you from even the U.S. Attorney's perspective down there, I doubt they're going to play that game that says, uh, you know, "We're going to, we're going to move forward in Vermont really quickly on the Curriers, make sure that gets all wrapped up, and, uh, you know, we're going to give him what he wants," and then, but because we think at the last minute he's going to [unclear: "cause everything" / "move off everything"]...

Officer Jeff Bell: Or, I guess, my opinion on that would be, would it be [an] issue with doing it something like that, would be, would we get, or would you be able to provide us with enough information that we need? And would that leave some type of doubt, the way being done like that, rather than up front, cooperating every step of the way and giving us the details that we need to make the closure, rather than right there at the end, when all we're getting is, you know, maybe a name and a place, and we might not be able to complete the closure all the way, and there might be some... I don't... it's just food for thought. Would there be...

Israel Keyes: Right. No, I think I understand what you're saying. My concern isn't so much with that. My concern is about keeping it... things under wraps for the duration of my incarceration, however long that may be. And, uh, if I have to do that by giving out little information at a time and, you know, continuing to work with you or whoever else, like, if it seems like that's going to keep working, then that's what I'll do. You know, even if it means more drama that way, I guess. But, um, but yeah, it's still better than the alternative, you know.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Kevin Feldis: [unclear: "I think that's what I'd like to do. One way, I think we should stay in the brain" / "Why don't we take a break?"]

Investigator: [Do] you need the bathroom?

Israel Keyes: Yeah, [unclear: "thank you" / "I should"].

Assistant U.S. Attorney Kevin Feldis: [unclear: "Carter's room was" / "part was"] just picking up where we left off, um, because you said something that I want to respond to, I think the last thing you said. And then I also want to respond to one of the [things] you said earlier, about, hey, at the last minute, this idea that seems that you're interested in, that at the last minute you could just tell us everything, right, at the end of all of this with the Curriers, you could just tell us everything. So let's use the Currier case in Vermont, you know. As we just explained, we have option A and B for looking at it that way. A is, we, you know, get information, we keep Vermont on board, we get some more information, not everything, but we get some more information on board, and we keep moving forward on a [unclear: "free time" / "three times"] basis, right? With the Curriers.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Kevin Feldis: Option B, we all kind of felt, was, you know, we lose control of Vermont because we don't get anything about New York. Vermont moves forward, and, you know, [the] U.S. Attorney's Office down there says, "Look, he's not cooperating. We're going to charge him federally." The state says, "He's not cooperating. We're going to charge him statewise." That's, uh, that's kind of what could happen on plan B, right?

Israel Keyes: Yeah. I mean...

Assistant U.S. Attorney Kevin Feldis: I just... are you with me?

Israel Keyes: I take your word for it. Yeah.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Kevin Feldis: Well, you know, if you think that... that I'm telling you something that... that's what I believe are two possible options here with the Curriers: the moving forward option, or the, you know, the stalling-out option, in which case Vermont moves forward federally and state. Um, now, the state of Vermont does not even have a death penalty, but they would have an interest, as you can tell [unclear: "in their office" / "from your office"]. But for your cooperation and our working with them, the state of Vermont would want to charge you, right? So the state of Vermont charges you, it's going to be a lengthy process [to] go forward with. So that's why I mean option B is a lengthy process. And they're not... no one's going to agree, either the U.S. Attorney's Office in Vermont or the Vermont state prosecutors are not going to agree to any kind of a situation where they say, "Hey, great, we're going to move things along quickly and get Israel sentenced, you know, whether he wants the death penalty, whether he wants life in prison, whatever. We're going to go ahead and move forward with that, with the hope that at the last minute he's going to give us all this information," right? They're just not going to enter that kind of agreement.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Kevin Feldis: I just wanted you to know my thoughts on that. I don't speak for the U.S. Attorney's Office [unclear: "for a long"; probably "in Vermont"] [or] speak for the state prosecutor on that issue. But, you know, I think the reality is they're not going to just move things forward quickly there with the promise, [the] promise from you that they'll learn everything eventually. [unclear: "You're going to want that first" / "I'm going to walk that first"; probably "They're going to want that first"], right? Like basic negotiating things. So, does that make sense?

Israel Keyes: Yeah. I mean, um, the part you left out is that with option A, is that if I continue to give them information, they can still do whatever they want as far as charging.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Kevin Feldis: Look...

Israel Keyes: They don't have to give me their word on anything.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Kevin Feldis: I know they don't, but they have, and they've given me their word. And so I think what you said was very insightful. Like, well, if you don't want to move things quickly, but you don't want them to be really slow... The quick, in my opinion, is you tell us [unclear: "very" / "right"]; the slow is, you tell us nothing. What you said at the very end, when we took a break, was, hey, if I have to give you a little bit each step along the way to keep things moving, that's, that's in the middle. Things will move. They won't move as quickly, they won't move as slowly, but they'll move. So I'm asking you, then, today, to give us the name of the person in New York as a little something. It's half a card. You can rip it in half. You give us the name, we move things forward.

Israel Keyes: No, it's not half a card. It's pretty...

Assistant U.S. Attorney Kevin Feldis: No, but you, you give us a name today, I think we'll be back here next week, you won't, you won't have [unclear: "a repeat of that" / "part key to that"; probably "heard a peep of that"]. Nobody will [have heard] about it. Well, and it keeps things moving. Yeah. We'll be sitting here next week, you won't even [have] heard a thing. We'll sit [here] the week after, you won't have heard anything about it. Okay? Because we're going to live up to our [end]. That's our commitment, to keep that, following your goals. You... here's what can happen today. You give me the name, I write it down. I don't ask you any more questions. We all have some lunch, talk about whatever you want to talk about. You have a cigar. Uh, you know, we can talk about the weather, what's going on in Anchorage, you know, whatever. I'll just write down the name. We have lunch, you have [a cigar].

Israel Keyes: Well, I mean, it sounds tempting, but no, I'm not, I'm not [unclear: "good with" / "going to give you"; probably "giving"] the name. I'm not [giving] names until I find out what my options are.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Kevin Feldis: That's... that's why you do what you need to do. We'll see if it changes next week. I think we'll be in the same position next week that we are today. And so, by not acting, we're going towards plan B. That's all. You know, it's not a threat or anything like that. It's just saying, you know, [unclear: "I be plan A, half A and half B" / "be it plan A, half A, and back B"; probably "I gave plan A, path A and path B"], right? By doing nothing, we kind of... we're kind of making [a] choice.

Israel Keyes: No, I know. It's reality, you know.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Kevin Feldis: I think you can take control of the situation today and let me write down that name. That's the control you have. Write down the name, and you see that next week nothing different is happening, because [unclear: "out there"] hasn't impacted you. It's just allowed us to stay on path A. It's a decision that you can make today.

Israel Keyes: I think what... I appreciate what you're saying, but here's what I think we should do, is set up a meeting probably later next week, a meeting just like this. If I don't get the information that I need by, I don't know, like I say, the next couple days, then what's going to happen is you're probably going to get an email of a different sort of meeting that we're going to have.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Kevin Feldis: Okay, that's up to you. So, you're telling me, we're going to meet... we'll come and meet with you next week.

Israel Keyes: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I assume that you're going to want to do that regardless, but I'm saying that, um, yeah, it's been... I mean, when was the last time I was over here? It was like a week ago, when I was... and I had already been trying to get... Yeah. So, I mean, like I say, if it doesn't... if I don't get the information I need this week, [via] the avenues that I'm trying to get it, then obviously that's not working, and I'll do something else.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Kevin Feldis: That's up to you, if that's your choice.

Israel Keyes: No, I, yeah, I know. I'm just saying it's a little bit, uh, from my perspective, it's... there's several different things going on, trying to keep them all related in my head, and then, uh, trying to keep everything moving on all of them, separate from each other but still in the same direction, is not an easy task, apparently. But, um, yeah, that will at least give me some more time to get the information that I need. [45:08] In the meantime, um, I had requested this [from] other avenue[s], but you had mentioned that there was news from Vermont. Was there a press release done or something? I know that they were coming up on the anniversary for their disappearance.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Kevin Feldis: And that's what we wanted to tell you, and why [unclear: "you say" / "go on and say"]... tomorrow is the anniversary.

Israel Keyes: [unclear: "How is it?" / "Tell us that"; probably "Oh, is it?"]

Assistant U.S. Attorney Kevin Feldis: And, um, so right now we have nothing to take [to] them. So what I wanted to accomplish today is to be able to tell them, "We got a name." I'm not going to tell them [the] name. I wanted to say, "Vermont, we got a name. Stick with this. We know it's [the] anniversary. You got a lot of pressure tomorrow."

Israel Keyes: Right. Well, that was a concern I had, because I know that that's like... the media makes a big deal out of anniversaries.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Kevin Feldis: Oh, and they're going to be, they're all over them. I know that. And that's what Vermont has wanted to know. I don't need to give Vermont the name. I just need to tell them, "Trust me, [he] gave me the name." They're not going to know the name. I'm not going to do it. They don't have any reason to know. But that gives them a reason to [unclear: "stay in charge" / "stand firm"].

Israel Keyes: Well, they already have a reason, right? I'm not going to give them that just so they have another reason.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Kevin Feldis: Well, you're not giving it to them. You're giving it to me.

Israel Keyes: Well, [unclear: "you're that you're" / "I hear that you have to put it right there"]...

Assistant U.S. Attorney Kevin Feldis: [That's what we wanted you to] know about. So, you know, look...

Israel Keyes: Oh, I... trust me, I'll know about it. I don't care, it doesn't matter how many miles away. Yeah, I imagine if my name pops up, I'm pretty sure it'll [inaudible].

Special Agent Steve Payne: What's Vermont's reason to stand firm?

Israel Keyes: I don't know.

Special Agent Steve Payne: You said they already have a reason, so I'm curious as to what that reason is.

Israel Keyes: Well, [unclear: "common sense, I guess" / "I'm probably sitting pretty good"]. I'm sure that at this point they want to give themselves a pat on the back, but frankly, they don't deserve one. So, you know, that's their reason. [If] they're being honest with themselves, they would know they couldn't give themselves a pat on the back.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Kevin Feldis: But they're going to say, "Hey, if Israel was being honest with himself, he would just tell you guys and move this thing along." That's, you know, their reaction, too, you know.

Israel Keyes: No, I'm probably more honest with myself than anybody else.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Kevin Feldis: Is it... are you... you're just looking to hide... I mean, are you looking to hide the information? Is that what I'm getting there? You're looking [to] just hide it?

Israel Keyes: Well, look, I'll get it to you, especially if there's something in it for me. But, um, it'd be better if, uh, my name wasn't attached to it from here till eternity or whatever.

Special Agent Steve Payne: We've told you before, we don't have a problem with that. We've demonstrated repeatedly that, uh, we have the ability to greatly influence that, right?

Israel Keyes: No, I... for now, yeah, I agree with you. I think... I think I could probably tell you everything today, and being the case that it is, I'm sure we could probably keep stuff under wraps for, what, a year, two years, whatever. I'm not worried about that.

Officer Jeff Bell: There you go.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Kevin Feldis: What's the deal, you know?

Israel Keyes: I'm worried about after that. Eventually my name is going to be attached to it. So, if there's a way that, uh, I can protect myself from that and still get you guys what you need, then I'm going to do it. I already, look, I... I don't need to be punished for these other things that I haven't talked to you about yet, because, yeah, all these other... they're not going to... they can't prosecute a dead man. So it's like, what?

Assistant U.S. Attorney Kevin Feldis: Right. But do you think anyone's going to really... you think Vermont... say Vermont charges you for the Curriers, you think they're really going to give you the death penalty knowing that there's more things out there? Do you think they're going to say, ah, you know...

Israel Keyes: I know...

Assistant U.S. Attorney Kevin Feldis: [unclear: "Catch-22, my friend" / "You're in a catch-22"].

Israel Keyes: I already fucked up.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Kevin Feldis: So you're in the catch-22, and we're offering you, uh, you know, we're offering you what is, I think, your best bet. That's your call, buddy. But, you know, you're in a catch-22, because Vermont, U.S. Attorney's Office, Vermont State, isn't going to rush forward and give you what you want, knowing that there's more information, right?

Israel Keyes: They can't give me [unclear: "a lot more" / "what I want"].

Assistant U.S. Attorney Kevin Feldis: Well, uh, you know, they could charge you federally in Vermont with the carjacking resulting in [unclear: "the couriers"; probably the deaths of the Curriers]. They haven't done that because they've trusted us that we're coordinating. They're not going to rush out there and give you some sentence, whatever it may be, while you're still... while there's still information out there about [unclear: "soft crime"; probably "other crimes"]. We're offering what I... that's your catch-22. I wanted to make sure you understood that, right?

Israel Keyes: No, I know that.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Kevin Feldis: And we're trying to work on the timing, the control of the media, the control. You control how the story comes out. This is your opportunity. You control the story. You control the timing. You control the media. And by timing, I mean moving it quickly. The other alternative, B, is [it] takes forever, possibly. Um, you don't control any of the rest of the stuff. You may be right, they never get it, but then they're not going to just move forward knowing [with] the unknown. The middle ground, I think, is what you suggested at the end. You give me a name, I write it down, you have lunch and a cigar, and we all meet again whenever you want [to]. And you're not going to hear anything about it between now and then.

Israel Keyes: No. No. No. [inaudible]

Assistant U.S. Attorney Kevin Feldis: Is Washington a better state?

Israel Keyes: No. [unclear: "My, uh" / "I, uh"]... [unclear: "let me" / "literally"] tackle one thing at a time, but I don't want to... I don't want to go into that New York trip anymore [inaudible]. And yeah, I'm also a little concerned about what they say tomorrow. [It] would be interesting to see if anything comes out, [if] they're able to resist the temptation.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Kevin Feldis: Do you want to have any control?

Israel Keyes: I don't have anything... I could tell you everything today, and they could still say whatever they want.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Kevin Feldis: Yeah, in theory, that's possible. Do you think they would? Do you think that if I...

Israel Keyes: I have no idea.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Kevin Feldis: Do you think if I go to them, call them after we get [done], and say, you know, [I got a] piece of information, [I] got a name, [unclear: "I'm going to tell them what it is"; probably "I'm not telling you what it is"], but he's [unclear: "looking up to"; probably "living up to"] his end of it, do you think they're really...

Israel Keyes: My suspicion is that no, they wouldn't say anything about it, if you told them not to. I'm just saying, [from a] realistic point of view, there's, you know, there's no guarantee.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Kevin Feldis: There's no guarantee... I agree with you. Look, there's no guarantees. We don't know what the media is sniffing around and what they know. We can't guarantee that. We've never been talking about guarantees here. We're just working with the best we can do.

Israel Keyes: Yeah.

Officer Jeff Bell: And, you know, once we go creep towards plan B, plan A might not be... will be more difficult to get back [on].

Israel Keyes: Well, maybe. That's... that's not really my call. That's more your call.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Kevin Feldis: We respectfully disagree. We think it's [your call]. I can't do anything with [unclear: "things"; probably "a name"]. [unclear: "It doesn't embody" / "It doesn't combine"; probably "other than buy"] the goodwill of the other people who can say, just continue, [unclear: "forget a little bit"; probably "we're getting a little bit"], we're moving in the right direction, we're going to stay on plan A. Other than that... they're not going to find... they're not going to find the body.

Israel Keyes: No, I'm not... I'm not worried about it.

Special Agent Steve Payne: [unclear: "I'm not worried about it"; probably "If you're not worried about it"], it sounds like there's nothing to lose.

Israel Keyes: Well, if I... yeah, it's true, the body [unclear: "is going to give you the body" / "makes me think of the volume"]...

Assistant U.S. Attorney Kevin Feldis: Yeah, I [unclear: "know that a lot of" / "knew a lot about it"]... I'm asking you for the most minimal thing that I think keeps us going [in] the right direction. We can meet again next week.

Israel Keyes: Yeah, you know, that's fine. Like I said, I already told you guys, too. Actually, nothing has changed since [the] last meeting on my end. I don't have any new information. You know, nothing has happened that I wanted to happen. So...

Assistant U.S. Attorney Kevin Feldis: Okay. We're just asking you from our perspective if there's something we can do on other crimes. Uh, we've done it, and [from] our perspective of talking to you about other crimes, we're standing still and sliding backwards, and it's kind of, as I said, let's just call it depressing and frustrating. But that's [unclear: "what about"] other crimes. You make your decisions. We told you what we thought could help today.

Israel Keyes: [inaudible] help somebody.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Kevin Feldis: I think, I think it would help you. [unclear: "Stay" / "know what the thing is"]... It's the catch[-22].

Israel Keyes: Not in the long run.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Kevin Feldis: You're, you're in the catch[-22], too, about that.

Israel Keyes: Yeah, I know. I know. But that doesn't mean I'm not going to try and manage it.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Kevin Feldis: We're giving you the manage[d] approach right now.

Israel Keyes: Yeah, just [unclear: "answering questions"; probably "too many unanswered questions"] right now.

Special Agent Steve Payne: Sorry. Well, in the interest of, uh, you know, not wasting everybody's time and stuff, you said you wanted late next week. Um, you want to pick a day right now? Thursday, Friday? Both days are late [next week]; [unclear: "we have prefers" / "what days are you going to take your preppers"; probably "do you have a preference"]?

Israel Keyes: No.

Officer Jeff Bell: [unclear: "today" / "Are they Thursday?"]

Israel Keyes: Okay.