"How This Ends": Israel Keyes and the FBI, July 26, 2012

Name: "How This Ends": Israel Keyes and the FBI, July 26, 2012
Uploaded: 2013-08-13
Duration: 2 h 2 min 35 s
Description: Days after Vermont media linked him to the Curriers, Israel Keyes argued with a federal prosecutor over who controls the details of his crimes. After his lawyer joined the meeting, he said: "we already all know how this, how this ends."

Days after Vermont media linked him to the Curriers, Israel Keyes argued with a federal prosecutor over who controls the details of his crimes. After his lawyer joined the meeting, he said: "we already all know how this, how this ends."

Subject: Israel Keyes
Recorded: about July 26, 2012
Runtime: 2:02:35

Content warning: Concerns a man who murdered at least three people, including Samantha Koenig, 18; the murders, what was done with the bodies and sexual assault are referred to but not described. Contains strong language.

The Interview

On Thursday, July 26, 2012, Israel Keyes was brought from the jail for another of the sessions he had been giving since his arrest in March. Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo, FBI Special Agent Jolene Goeden and Anchorage Police Officer Jeff Bell were in the room. Bell read him his rights, which Keyes said he understood, reminded him that he had standby counsel for other crimes, and told him that the session concerned crimes other than the one he was charged with; it went ahead without counsel. After about an hour and a half Keyes said that matters he needed to discuss could not be raised without his lawyer, and asked for him. The video resumes after a break with his standby counsel, Rich Curtner, in the room, for about another half hour. The recording runs just over two hours.

Historical Context

Keyes, a 34-year-old building contractor from Anchorage, abducted Samantha Koenig, 18, from the coffee stand where she worked on February 1, 2012, and killed her. He was arrested in Lufkin, Texas, on March 13, 2012, after using her debit card. In later interviews he confessed to the murders of Bill and Lorraine Currier, who disappeared from their home in Essex, Vermont, in June 2011, and described other killings. The FBI believes he may have killed 11 people. He took his own life in the Anchorage Correctional Complex on the night of December 1 to 2, 2012, before he could be tried.

Circumstances of the Interview

The session took place five days after Vermont media linked Keyes to the Curriers. Russo had drafted a letter setting out a plan under which Vermont would agree not to identify Keyes or charge him separately "without your authorization", in exchange for his continued cooperation; by July, Russo says, Vermont was under pressure to charge him. Keyes said there were "definitely some things we need to go over" in the letter. At the same time, the U.S. Attorney's recommendation on whether to seek the death penalty in the Koenig case had gone to the Justice Department's capital case reviewers ("Capital Crimes"), which Keyes said he had only just learned.

What the Interview Covers

Goeden opens by going through the list of items taken from Keyes's boat. Russo then explains how a death penalty sentencing would work, and Keyes says his concern from the beginning has been that "certain aspects of the things that I've done" should never become public. He complains that the Vermont investigation was not kept quiet ("I do blame you. I told you from the get-go, before I told you where the freaking bodies were left, I told you that I didn't want the locals involved") and says the letter "doesn't offer me anything". Of the pressure to find his other victims he says "frankly, they'll keep". Russo, Bell and Goeden set out what a conventional public investigation would look like and argue that an agreement now is his best way of controlling what is released; Keyes repeatedly says he does not know what will happen to the information he has already given. After the break, with Curtner present, Russo tells Keyes that the recommendation has been sent and gives the dates offered for his lawyers to argue mitigation to Capital Crimes. Keyes says: "we already all know how this, how this ends", and that if things do not go his way, "I don't need you guys". When Russo asks him to sign the U.S. Attorney's letter, Curtner puts on record that it is "against my advice". Curtner arranges to see him that afternoon. Keyes says the details of the Koenig case are his main concern and that he is "not interested in any dates in the Koenig case", and he is then taken back to the jail.

What Makes the Recording Significant

The recording shows, at length and in Keyes's own words, the bargain at the centre of his custody: he offered information about other killings in exchange for speed, control over publicity and, as he and Russo both say on tape, the death sentence he wanted. It also shows the strain the Vermont disclosures put on that arrangement, and the moment his own lawyer joined the discussion and recorded his disagreement. Alaska Dispatch (now part of the Anchorage Daily News), reporting the release of the audio in April 2013, summarised both sittings of this day.

Archival Importance

Keyes died without trial, so his recorded interviews are the main record of his own account. This is one of the five Keyes sessions the FBI published, with transcripts, in August 2013, and this copy was posted by the FBI itself.

Important Caveats

What Keyes says about other killings and about his intentions is his claim and was not verified in the session. The numbers spoken by the investigators ("up to 10 or 11 victims", "seven or eight more bodies") are their working estimates, not findings; no further victims are identified by name in this recording, and the "person" in New York is not named. The transcript was made from two machine readings (Whisper and YouTube's automatic captions), checked for speakers against the FBI's transcript; several passages remain unclear and are marked, and two short replies by Keyes are missing from both machine readings.

Investigators: [inaudible] Yeah. [inaudible]

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: Morning, Israel. How you doing?

Israel Keyes: All right.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: [unclear: "Day is all right" / "All right"]? We're going to do our normal advisement.

Officer Jeff Bell: Um, I, I have to read you your rights. First thing I want to ask you is, you didn't interrupt anything over at the jail?

Israel Keyes: No.

Officer Jeff Bell: No meeting with the lawyer or anything? You have the right to remain silent. You understand that?

Israel Keyes: Yeah.

Officer Jeff Bell: Anything you say can be used against you in a court of law. You understand that?

Israel Keyes: Yep.

Officer Jeff Bell: You have the right to talk to a lawyer and have him present with you while you're being questioned. You understand that?

Israel Keyes: Yep.

Officer Jeff Bell: If you cannot afford to hire a lawyer, one will be appointed to represent you before any questioning if you wish. You understand that?

Israel Keyes: Yep.

Officer Jeff Bell: You can decide at any time to exercise these rights and not answer any questions or make any statements. You understand that?

Israel Keyes: Yes.

Officer Jeff Bell: Okay. Also, um, I understand that you have standby counsel for crimes other than [unclear: "Koenig" / "the felony"], Mr. Curtner and Miss Walsh and possibly [unclear: "Mr." / "Ms."] [inaudible]. Would you like any of those here today?

Israel Keyes: [inaudible]

Officer Jeff Bell: Okay. And we're not here to talk to you about the [unclear: "Koenig case" / "criminal case"], just crimes other than that. Okay?

Israel Keyes: Yep.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: Okay. I think, uh, they had some things to discuss with you, obviously. Um, you know, they wanted to chat with you about some things, and then I wanted to kind of talk to you about where we are on the, on the Vermont thing.

Israel Keyes: Yeah. I, um, they wouldn't let me bring my copy of the letter, so there's definitely some things we need to go over.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: Okay. Well, I've got a copy.

Officer Jeff Bell: Who wouldn't let you? [unclear: "Jail?" / "Jim?"]

Israel Keyes: Yeah. [inaudible] Carry stuff around with me.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: If you guys want to chat about what you need to chat about, I can [inaudible].

Officer Jeff Bell: [unclear: "Afraid of a" / "Write a"] paper cut?

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: You need to mark up the letters? I, sort of like, you have some requests on it?

Israel Keyes: No. Yeah, I mean, we can just go through it. [inaudible] I already went through it, so [inaudible].

Special Agent Jolene Goeden: [unclear: "I can make an extra copy if you need it too" / "I have a letter here"].

Special Agent Jolene Goeden: Yeah. Um, I just wanted to let you know, I know you weren't real concerned about the boat, but I told you when we left last time that I'd give you a list of what was actually taken from the boat.

Israel Keyes: All right.

Special Agent Jolene Goeden: And what they do is they print out a receipt. I don't have the actual receipt; this is just an internal document, but I can show you on here. Um, a total of 19 items [unclear: "seized" / "to see"], but some of those are swabs. They're not actual things.

Israel Keyes: Right.

Special Agent Jolene Goeden: So, unknown materials, these I'm assuming are, were like pieces of thing, or like stains that may have been blood or something like that, that [inaudible], based on where they were taken from, the engine area. Um, fibers and fragments, same kind of thing. Um, I don't know what that is. I can ask about that ball of unknown material. My guess is it's probably [unclear: "a hair" / "here"].

Israel Keyes: [inaudible]

Special Agent Jolene Goeden: Hopefully the lab will know.

Officer Jeff Bell: That's why they call it a ball of unknown material.

Officer Jeff Bell: Maybe you could shed some light on that, if you know.

Special Agent Jolene Goeden: You know what the ball of unknown material is?

Israel Keyes: I'd have to see it.

Special Agent Jolene Goeden: Um, they had possible bone fragment and other material [unclear: "twice down" / "place"], two different things were taken there. Um, rope, two anchors with the line, other rope, a swab, and that swab was taken from a seat cushion. Screws, these were all in the back area, by the carpeting, in that area in the back [unclear: "of that motor" / "as well"]. More swabs.

Israel Keyes: Yeah.

Special Agent Jolene Goeden: Same kind of thing. That was that piece of carpeted wood by the, or the trim. [unclear: "The bilge pump" / "They'll pump"] as well. More rope, and they took the cables. I think they already probably had these before we talked last time, so those are [inaudible]. So, um, that's what they took. And then I'll get, eventually I'll get an actual receipt paper. If you want that, you can have it. Questions about any of this?

Israel Keyes: [inaudible]

Special Agent Jolene Goeden: Okay.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: [inaudible] copy this.

Special Agent Jolene Goeden: Okay.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: So, um, while she's making a copy, anything you want to discuss generally?

Israel Keyes: Any what?

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: Anything you want to discuss generally about the letter, about any concerns you have?

Israel Keyes: Well, um, yeah. Uh, one of my main concerns right now is, um, trying to get a handle on what the process is going to be. If this goes to CCU, they approve one or all my cases for the death penalty, it comes back, and then my understanding at this point is it goes to a judge, and they decide, make a decision, as to whether or not to pursue it from there.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: Uh, again, like I said, you know, I can't give you legal advice, but here's my understanding of the process. Um, in terms of the notice itself, it gets filed. All right? With the court.

Israel Keyes: Right.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: After it gets filed with the court, um, then, you know, obviously you're free to plead guilty in your main case, or go to trial, or the Cu-, the Currier case, whatever, whatever you want. And, uh, then, let's assume we're talking about the Currier case, there would be a sentencing set. And at the sentencing, I think there would be, you know, either, like I said, there's an option to, to both sides agree to do a judge sentencing or a jury sentencing. And then that would go to that, and then ultimately the jury or the judge is the one who would have to impose the death [penalty].

Israel Keyes: Right.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: Or life in prison.

Israel Keyes: Okay. So, okay, so the, it goes to the judge or the jury sentencing, either one. At the sentencing, it's a public hearing?

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: Yes.

Israel Keyes: Either way, it has to be a public hearing?

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: I think, um, yeah. I mean, most of it, you know, now there's exceptions for, um, public hearings where we can seal parts of them. Part of the, uh, you know, the methods we've used to kind of close portions of sentencings in the past is to apprise the court of cooperation efforts on behalf of the defendant. Um, if we've got a legitimate law enforcement basis to close the public out, we can do that. Now, in order to do that, we'd have to get approval from Main Justice. Um, but, you know, it's happened in the past. It's happened in virtually every case that I've had cooperators in, and usually they, they don't want their cooperation [unclear: "mentioned" / "mentally"], um, because [unclear: "it could be dangerous" / "it'd endanger them more"].

Israel Keyes: Right. Okay. Well, my concern is, uh, like I've said from the beginning, there's certain aspects of the things that I've done that I don't, I would prefer never became public. Um, and from what I've been hearing lately, at something as serious as a death penalty hearing, they want to review all of the evidence before they make a decision whether [inaudible].

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: [unclear: "You mean jury" / "When you say they, you mean jury"]?

Israel Keyes: Jury [or a judge]. And obviously, in everything we've discussed, there's a lot of that. I mean, if they're going to review all the evidence, then that's primarily going to be interviews that we've done, in which that information is going to be in that evidence. And so, if it's a public hearing, it's going to be, all that's going to become public. And that's what, exactly what I didn't want from the beginning. You know, I, um, certain aspects of this that, you know, yeah, there's no way around it. But, you know, as far as different things that were done with the bodies and the sexual assault stuff, that type of stuff, I just don't, I would, I don't see, you know, if that has to be part of the hearing, then I would, we've got to figure out something different.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: I've got sort of two possible solutions I've been thinking about. Um, if it gets to that point, you know, one, with respect to stuff that you're working with us on, like, you know, other crimes, other, you know, bodies, um, and they're still investigating to corroborate your confessions for those murders, you know, we can certainly seek approval to close that part of the sentencing, to the extent you're talking about those. All right? Now, I, I don't know whether, or guarantee whether or not, Main Justice would grant that. Um, the second portion of it is, you know, we control the evidence that we present. So the government's got to present the evidence. And, you know, maybe there's some way to kind of address both of our concerns here by circumscribing, by limiting the amount of stuff that's introduced into the court. So I'm toying with that idea. Um, now, obviously there's a, there's a catch-22 then, right?

Israel Keyes: Right.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: The worse things, you know, appear [to] the jury or the judge, the more likely it is you're going to get what you want.

Israel Keyes: Right.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: In the context of the Currier case, right? [inaudible] But I think that there is maybe a way around that. But in order to kind of get around that, what we'd have to do is we'd have to have at least the basic information on all the murders you've committed. So, basically, it's not like, hey, you know, we're sort of going with quantity rather than quality of the murders. And if we can corroborate those, you know, I think there may be a way to kind of get you what you want, but also, um, you know, obviously we get what we want then too. That would have to be part of the negotiation. Now, these are just thoughts I've had, but...

Israel Keyes: Right. Here, here's the problem with that scenario, is, like you said, I might get what I want. You definitely get what you want.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: Well, I mean, look, you know, I think you said it before in other contexts. You know, if people hear the things you've done, you know, I don't think any jury would have any doubts about what they'd do. Now, I can't promise what a jury is going to do. I can never do that.

Israel Keyes: Right. But that was, that was me operating under the maybe somewhat naive assumption that as long as I was giving you all this information, there was no reason for it to become public. Whereas, I, I already know that if you go out and you find out this stuff on your own, then, yeah, all kinds of stuff [becomes public].

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: Well, maybe all kinds of stuff. I mean, it would have to be a numbers thing. I mean, right now, the way, on the way we're going now, you know, let's assume we don't ever strike a deal on the Currier thing. Um, you know, yeah, then I think it does become public, some of this stuff. Then we're forced to kind of go our way, and, and you're forced to go, you know, your, your own way. We've got to go our separate ways, and we've got to, you know, try our cases. I understand that. Um, you know, I think now is the time to sort of strike a deal that would encompass all your activity, and then part of that, broker some deal about, you know, what we, we can introduce and what we can't.

Israel Keyes: Well, this is another problem. This is why I was pushing for a different type of meeting this week. But, um, you know, obviously there's other things going on that I don't, I don't even know what's going on. [inaudible] And I know we can't talk about it, but that's an issue for me. So...

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: About other things that are going on in the process.

Israel Keyes: Right. And I don't, I don't know what's going on. So...

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: Yeah, I mean, you know, obviously I can't help you with that. That's between [inaudible].

Israel Keyes: No, I know. I know, and that's the problem. So I, you know, I don't know what else to say about it other than that. But in regards to the Currier thing, I went through that letter several times, and there's nothing... First of all, I was pretty ticked off just thinking back about the way things played out with the whole Vermont thing in general. Um, I remember specifically, before we even had, you know, before I gave you the location of that house or anything, I was like, "I'll give you the location of this house, but I don't want the locals involved." I don't want, there, I, I, I didn't see any reason to bring any, anyone back there in that area into the [unclear: "fold" / "hole"], so to speak, as to what was going on, because they didn't have any clue anyway. You know, and next thing I know, there's like articles in the paper, like, this big dig site going on. You know, there, there was just, there was a lot more discreet ways to handle it, you know. So you, you got your information, you went, they went right away to the lead investigator on the case, and, you know, my name got leaked out somehow way back then. And then, you know, months later, you dig and you dig, you never find anything aside from what I gave you in the first place, and then my name's attached to it anyway.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: Let me tell you a little bit about, at least my perception of how things worked there. And I'll tell you a little bit about the realities of law enforcement. You know, uh, if the FBI just kind of went in there and simply said, like, gangbusters, "Hey, locals, you stay out of it. We're handling this. We're not telling you what's going on," that would be a political nightmare for them. Okay? Given that they had the information and another agency was investigating, that they couldn't do it. I think we've talked about that numerous times since then, that Vermont was a test case. And, you know, I think we've learned a lot from Vermont, and we understood that the way that was handled back then, um, you know, we'd have to avoid in the future to keep both sides happy if we were going to get continued information. Um, so, you know, that, that's why, that's the whole reason that we initially came up with, you know, this letter: is to handle it a little bit differently and get Vermont to sort of get on board with us. So, you know, we were successful in getting the letter. Obviously, some things happened that, you know, we were disappointed with too, about your name getting leaked out.

Officer Jeff Bell: Yeah, you know, we're not, we're not happy about the way that [was handled] either.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: In fact, you know, there was a rift between us and Vermont for a while, and we weren't giving them information because of the fact that we heard that it got leaked. And so we were, you know, angry at them. We had, like, a video conference session with all the investigators from Vermont and all the prosecutors from Vermont and us, and kind of hashed things out. And said, you know, obviously there's been some problems. They agreed that, you know, look, you know, they're on board with us. They've obviously got to consider the needs of the family. But, you know, I think we hashed things out, and, you know, things have worked much better, especially, like, recently. You know, I mean, being able to control that press conference on the Curriers in light of the possible settlement of other crimes, I think, was a pretty remarkable feat that we were able to accomplish. But what I'm trying to do here is, all right, obviously we can go with this. That was a way to kind of, they even said in this initial letter that they would [unclear: "confer with" / "infer to" / "confirm to"] us as to what charging would happen, and that was a way to kind of put the lid on things and kind of keep going quietly. All right, I understand you can go with this. So, you know, what we're trying to do now is just simply revisit that another way. Obviously, that opportunity has passed us by, but there's still this opportunity on the table. And, you know, I think the longer we wait on it, the more problematic it becomes, because they're, you know, I've been avoiding calling a lot since, you know, this week. I've just basically said, "Hey, you know, he's obviously getting some advice on the letter," and I haven't heard from them since Monday or Tuesday. And I [unclear: "haven't called them" / "had to call them"], because I know the next question is going to be, "All right, [unclear: "why are we on" / "put me on"] the letter?" Because we have to do something. So, you know, this letter is an effort to try to keep everybody in line. Keep Vermont in line. Get you, to some extent, what you want, and get us what we want.

Israel Keyes: [I know,] it doesn't get me anything I want. It doesn't get me anything that I'm not going to get anyway. You, you just said Vermont is chomping at the bit now. They want to see me indicted for this.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: In their jurisdiction.

Israel Keyes: Whatever. I mean, the whole deal originally was that I would be charged federally with it, and now you're ready to just hand it over to them and let them charge me. So, I don't care, you know, if they want to charge me. I'm not, it's pretty clear at this point, I'm not going to get what I want. At least not, I'm not going to get a straight answer on what I want, you know. And I, I, apparently I misunderstood the way the whole process works from the beginning, you know. So all the information that I've given you now is probably going to get out anyway. So, whatever.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: [I think] first, there's a way to kind of avoid that right now, and that's what we're working with you on. That's why we're negotiating with you. But in terms of, yeah, letting them, you know, have the case, that's not really our intention. But what it is, the reality of the situation is, you know, they understand that, you know, when they initially were involved, that you were cooperating, and then you, you know, you decided to slow it down. And, you know, right now they can charge you and put pressure on the feds to give over the evidence. And that's the reality of the situation. Yeah, can we sit there and say, "No, Vermont, we're not giving you whatever evidence we uncovered with respect to, you know, the Curriers"? Yeah, I mean, it's conceivable, but for the people who make the decisions, and how this would blow back on them, realistically, they couldn't do that. They couldn't, you know. They would put political pressure on, saying, "Hey, the FBI is holding back evidence in this double murder, and we can't prosecute this guy because they're not playing fair." Um, that, that's, that's the reality of the situation, and it's the situation we're trying to avoid in other jurisdictions. I mean, we're trying to do that, but, you know, we're, we're, you know, it's like herding cats at this point. And I think, you know, if we go in there with an agreement to other jurisdictions and simply say, "All right, look, you know, he's cooperating. He needs your assurances that you're not going to do these things," that, if, Vermont still has the option of doing, I think we're a lot better off.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: And, you know, your, your desire for discretion on some of these things about what comes out in court, you know, we can negotiate with those things. And we can try to figure out and strike a balance where, you know, you would get what you want, but we get what, what we want. I mean, are there any guarantees of what a jury does? No. Can I, can I tell you what the judge is going to do? No. But that's the nature of [the] work.

Israel Keyes: Exactly.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: I mean, that's, you know, that's just the way, you know, the law works. I can't, you know, even, couldn't, couldn't, uh, you know, guarantee any jury, you know, even no matter how strong the evidence, what they do with it.

Israel Keyes: Oh, I know.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: You know, so, but all I can tell you...

Israel Keyes: [That's obviously] the biggest issue of all.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: But the more compelling, I can tell you, in my experience, the more compelling the case is for the jury, the more likely it is, the more, the stronger the evidence, the more likely it is that you get a favorable verdict. So, you know, yeah, you can go, you know, before the jury in the Curriers' case and, and say, "Yeah, you killed these two people." And, um, you know, that would be the evidence. But at sentencing, you make a much more compelling case if, you know, you say, "All right, there's also, you know, eight other people that you killed," and you provided evidence on those. And, you know, by virtue of the agreement, you know, we would be circumscribed from telling the jury about that. I mean, that's one way to handle it. You know, I, I think the problem is you're sort of between a rock and a hard place. You don't want to give the jury all the information, because, you know...

Israel Keyes: I don't care if the jury has the information. I just didn't want it all over the media.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: All over the public.

Israel Keyes: Right.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: Well, I mean, that's, goes back to sort of the...

Israel Keyes: But apparently that's not possible. So, can I see that letter?

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: Yes.

Israel Keyes: There's, there's something else in there I want to go over.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: I think the, uh, like I said, there are law enforcement exceptions to keep things sealed and from the public if we're still investigating it. You know, we just need to get approval of it. That's something we can put in that letter, that we'd seek approval from Main Justice to keep things [sealed].

Officer Jeff Bell: And, and in this, and I'm pretty sure in this letter, all we're asking for on anything else is who and where.

Special Agent Jolene Goeden: [The details.]

Israel Keyes: Yeah, I know. I, I see that.

Officer Jeff Bell: So you get to, you control that information by telling us just that.

Israel Keyes: Right. But the problem is, with some of that, it's going to give you more than enough that, if this doesn't work out in my favor, you're going to keep playing connect the dots, and I'm going to keep getting bounced around from one jurisdiction to the next.

Officer Jeff Bell: It doesn't happen with this.

Israel Keyes: No, it says, "Prior to any plea agreement, I provide the total number of victims, jurisdictions," which in turn is going to give you, [unclear: "well, it doesn't say names or dates" / "the same name or dates"], but...

Special Agent Jolene Goeden: Or even specific locations. It just gives us a jurisdiction.

Officer Jeff Bell: That's just so we can get their agreement. That's all we, that's, that's why that's all we're asking for before that. It's purposely set up that way, to protect you.

Israel Keyes: Right. But the problem is, is I already know that you know where I've been for the last few years, so it's not...

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: You're not giving up anything.

Special Agent Jolene Goeden: So you're right, that's not a lot of new information. It might just corroborate some of the stuff that we have, and, and it gives us the ability to go to them and get them on board, or walk away if they're not willing to get on board.

Israel Keyes: What I see happening with this is that you're wanting more information up front. I still have no idea what's going to happen with the information I've already given you. And, admittedly, you don't know what's going to happen with the information I've already given you.

Officer Jeff Bell: Except that in that letter, if you don't get what you want, that's when the information stops, right?

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: Yeah.

Israel Keyes: It stops until you start finding stuff.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: Well, it's conditioned on at least the Attorney General coming back and saying, "Hey, we're going to seek what you want." Right? I mean, look, you know, you've identified, you know, some issues that you're concerned about, but, you know, I don't think there's anything we can't overcome here. You know, it's, there's no reason to get sort of frustrated about things. It's, you know, we can work it all out. You know, you've just identified...

Israel Keyes: Oh, I know we can work it all out. I just don't see what the big time crunch is, that you want all this information right now, and I still don't know what's going to happen with the stuff I gave you on day one.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: Well, I think the problem is we need that information to kind of keep, you know, Vermont on board, rather than have Vermont go public. And once Vermont goes public...

Israel Keyes: Vermont already went public, essentially.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: Yeah, it didn't really get picked up. They had one reporter who had inside information. She didn't share her sources, as far as I know. Clearly other stations didn't feel comfortable linking it to, to you. Um, certainly, you know, they were calling and trying to get [confirmation].

Officer Jeff Bell: Even up here, they added that disclosure, that they couldn't...

Special Agent Jolene Goeden: They couldn't confirm it.

Officer Jeff Bell: They couldn't confirm it locally, so that all they did was run what...

Israel Keyes: Right.

Officer Jeff Bell: What they had.

Israel Keyes: No, I get that. But I mean, you, you, you've already said, whether I'm charged with this federally or locally in Vermont, I'm going to be charged with it, and soon, right?

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: That's their plan.

Israel Keyes: That's what they want.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: That's what they want. And that's what we're trying to kind of avoid, at least, because you said you didn't want to get dragged back to Vermont.

Israel Keyes: I don't see how they can do that anyway, when I'm still facing charges here.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: They'll drag you back eventually. I mean, what they do is, and what's happened in other cases, is they lodge the, the detainer. You finish up here, then you go to Vermont, maybe then they lend you out to the state court there, and that goes through the process. Which is what you said you didn't want. And that's where we're headed.

Officer Jeff Bell: And the other thing is, and I know you know this, is that you, the way typical law enforcement investigation would work on this, you have to admit that the way this... I know this seems slow to you, that this process has taken a long time. But for us, and the people that are, that are in charge of us, what they want, they know that there's potentially up to 10 or 11 victims. So there's seven or eight that we don't know where they're at, and those kind of things. So what we're getting the pressure to do is find those other people.

Officer Jeff Bell: And so what you don't want us to do is to use conventional police methods to do it.

Israel Keyes: You're already using conventional [police methods].

Officer Jeff Bell: We're not.

Special Agent Jolene Goeden: [We haven't gone to] media.

Officer Jeff Bell: We haven't gone to local media places and said, "Israel Keyes was here on April 9th, of, April 10th of 2009. He committed this Tupper Lake bank robbery. He killed somebody in, in this area, and they're buried here, and we need the public's help in finding out if they saw him or his vehicle. And this was the vehicle, and this is the license plate number." That's what, that's what a typical police investigation would do. We know you don't want that, because the first one of those that we put out gets on [inaudible].

Israel Keyes: You don't want that [either].

Officer Jeff Bell: You're right. You're right. We don't, because we, we want this cooperation that we have. And that's what's, that's why we've been delaying this. But the pressure is getting increasingly, with Vermont. We're getting calls from Vermont also, since they ran their story. The colonel of the state police there is getting calls from other families in that area who now think Israel Keyes could have killed their family members because he killed somebody else there. And so that's what we're looking, that's what's going to happen in every state if we use conventional police methods. And we want to keep it as quiet as you do, because we want the information from you. We know it would be the most accurate. I mean, that's just the reality of it. I, I mean, I know you know that.

Israel Keyes: Well, I, I know. I... But you know as well as I do that you [can] put my name and face out there and dates out there all you want, but we're talking about stuff that's happened at least two years ago now.

Officer Jeff Bell: I know. I know. I realize that. But that, that's the only other way we can do it, right?

Israel Keyes: I don't know. [Probably.] But I'm just saying that I'm getting a little bit ticked off at what's happening with the information that I've already given you, you know. And I see no reason at this point to keep giving you more information, because I don't know what's going to happen with that. Once it's, once you have it, once they have it, these different jurisdictions, it's their information. Yeah, I understand that. But then I lose, you know, I lose it, and you guys, and then, you know, Vermont, New York, whoever, they, they do whatever they want with it. And, like I say, I, you know, it, the whole, the whole process is, I'm getting, I'm getting a little bored with it. So...

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: I mean, you're, you know, annoyed with that, with the way that was handled. Quite frankly, I'm annoyed with you, because you had in your power a way to stop it right here. And I came up with this plan, and you could have done it. And if you did it, we wouldn't have had the problem in Vermont last week, because they, we would have had the authority to say...

Israel Keyes: They had already leaked my name to the [press at the] time that that letter was out.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: Yeah, but they had nothing else. They had nothing else. And, you know, they leaked it, but they had absolutely zero until they had the corroboration of the press conference, which, by virtue of this letter, we would have had more sway into telling them, "Look, you can't do that, because he's cooperating, and here's what he's already done, and he's lived up to his end of the [unclear: "bargain" / "party" / "park"]." So that's the reality of the situation. You blame us for the situation; I'm blaming you.

Israel Keyes: I do blame you. I told you from the get-go, before I told you where the freaking bodies were left, I told you that I didn't want the locals involved. And the first thing you do is make a big scene and do a big freaking archaeological dig right alongside the main road.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: Come on. You've agreed in the past, if we're being honest here, that we've handled that situation as quietly as possible. And to whatever extent we could, we shut people's mouths. And the only problem was probably one cop that didn't get the message early on. And that was...

Israel Keyes: No, I think you need to back up to your recordings, because I, I, I remember the conversation, and I said I didn't want the locals involved in it. And I know now from... I mean, I talked to the guy. I talked to the lead investigator. Not only did you involve him in that, but you took him to New York to dig up the guns. You had him, you had him involved from the very get-go.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: Well, the only reason that guy was involved in the conversation is we were sort of planning [unclear: "on going with this" / "to run the fist" / "to run the piss"] at the time, if you remember. Okay? That was sort of by your [consent].

Israel Keyes: You got the guns before that letter was written.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: Yeah. Yeah, we were trying to... I mean, that lead investigator, like I said, politically, and maybe, you know, the FBI can explain it to you, you can't just simply walk in there and say...

Israel Keyes: Well, you told me you could.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: I, I don't think we did. I mean...

Israel Keyes: Back up to [the] recording.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: Yeah, you know, I'll go look at it and I'll listen to it, and I'd be happy to kind of share it. But I think what we said was the FBI would lead and handle the case, and that's what's happened.

Israel Keyes: No, you said you would control it.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: Yeah, and to the, whatever extent we could, we did. In fact...

Israel Keyes: And I'm saying I'm not happy with the extent that you've controlled it. You haven't controlled it at all.

Officer Jeff Bell: We realize that. We can see that. We're not happy either. I mean, that's...

Israel Keyes: Look, I know it was more than one thing that caused the whole thing to get out of control. I know that if the house had just still been there, and it all just been neat and wrapped up in a couple days without doing a freaking landfill dig, yeah, it would have made it easier. But that's not, the fact is there, different things that happened the way they happened. And now I don't know what's going to happen with all this information I'm giving you. And, you know, I'm not just talking about the Curriers.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: Well, that's why we're here negotiating. You know, look, you have stuff you want; we have stuff we want. Yeah, can we promise you absolutes? No.

Israel Keyes: I know.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: Just like you can't promise us absolutes that we're going to find these people. So, who knows whether or not we'll ever be able to kind of, you know, give closure to their families. I mean, it's up in the air for us too. You know, we're just both doing our best to try to come to some sort of resolution. Yeah, it's not ideal. You know, we have different interests, but I think there's a way to meet those in the middle that will avoid a lot of the things that you don't want, and at least try to get us started on the things that we want. No guarantees from our end either.

Special Agent Jolene Goeden: We have the ability to control it better now. I told you the other day, back in April when you told us about the Curriers, we had no idea what we were dealing with. We didn't know there were seven or eight more bodies. We didn't know, we didn't know a lot. And we have the ability now to control it better.

Officer Jeff Bell: Had we known that back then and were able to communicate that to the people in Vermont, I don't think the leak would have happened, because I think that, that person would have realized the gravity of the situation. I don't think that they did. I think they thought the end of it was their case. That was the only one that mattered to them, and clearly it wasn't. And I'm sure that person...

Israel Keyes: Well, that, you know, that's fine. What's done is done. I'm just saying, from right now, from my perspective, there's, this letter doesn't offer me anything. I know that, you know, you have pressure on you to find these other people, but frankly, they'll keep. And I, and my, and I still don't know, like I say, what's going to happen with this information I gave you on day one.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: Well, let's, you know, let's talk about it.

Israel Keyes: I would love to, but unfortunately other parties chose not to be here. So...

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: I mean, look, you know, in your discussion of other crimes, I mean, I know we mention this to you all the time, that, you know, you can have counsel present for these discussions of other crimes. You know, I know we pay lip service to it, but you were in Judge [unclear: "Beistline's" / "Bison's" / "Feeline's"] courtroom when we did this whole thing. You know...

Israel Keyes: I don't have any [problems].

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: [We] said you can, if you want to stop talking and you want to kind of invite counsel here, then you have, you can invite them, and they have to come.

Israel Keyes: [Look,] I don't have any problem speaking for myself. The problems I have is with the legal procedure, as to what happens with this stuff in the courts. I already know what happens with it on the ground. I'm just saying I don't know what happens with, with all this information. Like that, that whole thing about the whole investigation and interviews being made public for the sentencing hearing. I didn't even, I did not know that. I was led to believe that if I gave you information, then we controlled all that information.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: You still have an opportunity to control that information. And, you know, agreements can be struck, but they have to be struck now, in advance, because if we get too far down the line, here's what's going to happen. Like I said, we identified Vermont as, you know, a problem, because that was, you know, happened at a time we didn't know what we were dealing with. I wrote that on the, on that flip pad I showed you a while ago: "Vermont, we've got to deal with Vermont." I knew it's going to be a problem. All right, now I know it's to the point where, yeah, it's a reality that it's going to be a problem. If we take control of the situation, you know, I think we can avoid that problem. You can then negotiate how, what the extent of what you tell us, and to some extent, you know, what, what comes out in court. But we, you know, we've got to talk about it, and you, you know, we've got to kind of go forward. Because what's going to happen here is, let's assume we don't strike any deal. I mean, here's what I see happening. And again, I saw this months ago, and I'm just going to tell you, in the future, what's going to happen is they're going to go ahead and say, "All right, well, he doesn't want to enter into a global settlement on the other crimes. We're going to go ahead and, and, and charge him." Okay? Once they charge him, it doesn't become, once they charge you, it doesn't become one reporter saying, "Israel Keyes did this." It becomes, "All right, the government's saying he did this." And then that becomes sort of a national [unclear: "frenzy" / "trend"]: "Israel Keyes killing three people, traveling around the country, killing people. Where else has he been? What kind of shows can we do?" And then that, in turn, puts pressure on the local FBI. All right, they're going to come to, to Jolene and say, "All right, well, what did you do? Uh, you know, what have you done to kind of make sure you've investigated all these crimes? Oh, you didn't put media out. You know, you're sitting there talking to Israel Keyes. You're trusting him, and you didn't do the necessary things that we see fit." That's exactly what's going to happen. And they're going to say, "You go do it." And it's not going to be up to Jeff Bell or Jolene Goeden or Frank Russo or Kevin Feldis.

Israel Keyes: Like I say, if they think that's going to help, then they're idiots. Because, like I say, we're talking, I've given you all the information that any... First of all, none of, no media exposure, even if I hadn't given you all the stuff on the more recent ones, would have helped. I don't think it would have helped. I don't know.

Special Agent Jolene Goeden: It maybe wouldn't help, but [it'd] get your name out there and [connected] with things, which is what [you don't want].

Israel Keyes: Right. That's why I gave you that information. But I mean, now you're talking about wanting to put my name in the media, which is the one thing I didn't want from [the get-go].

Special Agent Jolene Goeden: We don't want to.

Israel Keyes: But you're, it's going to happen, is what you're saying.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: I'm concerned it's going to happen. That's my concern, as I look forward.

Officer Jeff Bell: If we can't, if we can't get some, if we can't get another avenue for doing it, I don't see that the FBI, we, I don't see that we have any other choice on how to investigate it. I mean...

Israel Keyes: Uh, yeah, you could just hold off until I see what happens with the information I've already given you, and then we still have an open line of communication. If you do that, I have no... What, what incentive do I have, if you, if you, after all the information I've given you, if you run to the media and put all this crap out there for my family and everybody else to see, and then at some point down the road, "Well, we still don't have enough to find out for sure that he did this, that, and the other thing. But let's go back and talk to him." Do you really think I'm going to feel like giving you any more information?

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: But from our perspective, you have to see it, sort of the other side of the coin. You know, what guarantees do we have that you're going to give us the information?

Israel Keyes: You don't have any guarantees.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: Exactly. Just like you don't. So we're trying to reach an agreement here where we both have some assurances that we're bound by in an agreement. So we're bound by...

Israel Keyes: You don't have any guarantees, but it's pretty likely you're going to get the information.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: Why do you say that? I mean...

Israel Keyes: Uh, because it looks like I'm stuck here for a while.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: Well, what incentive would you have to give up the information?

Israel Keyes: I don't know. I'm sure things will come up. Right now, you guys got me on pencil restriction.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: Pencil restriction?

Israel Keyes: I don't know. What is that, [Jeff]?

Officer Jeff Bell: That's to get you to stop eating pencils, I guess.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: Look, I think, you know, what we're trying to do is, look, it's obviously a situation where you have interests and we have competing interests. You know, like I said, things are negotiated like that every day. And I think we can negotiate something like that, but, you know, we need a little bit more to do it. You know, to avoid Vermont doing what they're going to do. To avoid, you know, what the, you know, the FBI nationally is going to come down and say we should have been doing in this case. Um, you know, that's, that's our interest.

Israel Keyes: But I don't see what you, you keep talking about what Vermont's going to do, but if, you've already said that you're, I'm going to be charged with this federally if they...

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: Well, I don't know. Federally or state?

Israel Keyes: But one or the other, soon, right?

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: That's... Well, I mean, look, I've been holding them off, and I can ask them to hold off a little bit longer. That's their plan. They said that in the press conference.

Israel Keyes: I'm just saying, originally this was, this was all, all this information on the Currier case was supposed to become part of the other information that I gave you prior to that.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: Yeah.

Israel Keyes: And now it's all of a sudden become a separate thing, and now you want more information to add to this.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: We're just trying to control, you know, what was, what happened at the very outset, when we didn't know the full scope of things. Let's just deal with that problem. All right? Maybe we can't, you know, solve every single problem here, but we're happy to kind of try to solve Vermont. And I think it would be minimal impact to you if we convinced them that, look, you know, he just pleads guilty here, and then it gets wrapped up all globally in Alaska. That would probably have the least impact on you. Agree?

Israel Keyes: Yeah, you know, this, this whole thing is already a huge [inaudible].

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: [And] we're just trying to solve the problem.

Israel Keyes: They never even found the bodies. At least if they had found the bodies, then it's just, you know, every... There's no way around it now. You charge me with the Curriers, everybody knows now, as soon as you charge me with that, that I gave you all the information you have, because you didn't find any on your own. Even after they knew they were at the landfill, they're like, "Well, we didn't find them, but they were definitely murdered, and we definitely have the person who did it. And now, pretty soon, we're going to tell everybody who did it, and the person who did it is Israel Keyes." So how did they know that? Well, you must have told them. So, whatever.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: How can we avoid...

Israel Keyes: You can't avoid it now. It's already happened. I mean, the majority of it's already happened. The only thing left is you to come out and say, "Yeah, that Israel Keyes is the one who's going to be charged for it." So...

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: And they didn't say that.

Israel Keyes: They didn't say it yet. I'm just saying I'm going to be charged for it. You said soon. Either federally in Vermont or in Vermont. And that's...

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: Well, can, is there a way we can kind of at least keep the lid on things in Vermont any longer? I mean, and, and maybe, you know, I know you have another situation to work out, but give us something that buys us time.

Israel Keyes: I don't... How do I know how much time? First of all, I'm not buying any time, because they already did a freaking news story on it. And you've, you've already said they're chomping at the bit to charge me now. So, you know...

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: But if we can get something from them and simply just say, "Hey, you know, hold off, [or broker] some other sort of, you know, deal." I mean, look, you know, obviously our preference, and I think yours is too, is to wrap all this up, you know, [unclear: "globally" / "locally"], with all the other [crimes]. But...

Israel Keyes: Well, that's only if I can get what I want out of it. And that's looking less likely all the time. Especially since I still have no idea. It's been freaking months since we first started talking, and, like I say, I still have no idea what's, like, in the broad scope of things, what is going on, or what is going to happen, or how long each of these things is going to take. I have no idea. I haven't been able to get a straight answer on it from day one.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: So, I can tell you in terms of the Currier case, because all I did, I laid it out here. You set the deadlines. And we put deadlines in here, you know, at least for your [unclear: "edification" / "gratification"]. We can [unclear: "avoid deadlines" / "put more deadlines"]. We can sort of work on, you know, the, the language. We can work on how much [inaudible].

Israel Keyes: There's no deadline. I mean, the only deadlines are, are events that happen. They're not dates.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: Well, I mean, I said there's a couple weeks from the events, and then there's, you know, seeking expedited review. And so, that's, you know, what I've been working on. It's not like, you know, we've been sitting here just, you know, calling back to Washington, D.C., and asking, "How can I screw Israel Keyes?" You know, I've been trying to kind of, you know, pull my hair out and figure out a way to kind of resolve this dispute and settle everything, where, you know, you have the best chance of getting what you want, and we have the best chance of getting what we want. So, I've been dealing... Yeah, like you said, you know, Vermont, what happened, you know, [if we had it to] do over again, we would have done a little differently. But we didn't know the full scope of things, and, you know, you know, it is what it is. We can't rewrite that. What we can do is we can change the, the future as to what happens. And we'll change, you know, we can change the future as to these other things. Because, you know, right now your concern is that you go to court on the Curriers, and then all these details come out that you don't necessarily want to come out. Right?

Israel Keyes: With everything [that I've told you].

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: Okay, with everything. Right? We keep going the way we are and not agreeing on different things, then, yeah, I think stuff like that's going to happen. So you're sort of between a rock and a hard place. Hey, you know, if you don't agree globally, you can't stop the flow of information [in] Vermont. They'll use whatever, they'll exert whatever influence, and they can kind of use your confessions against you. Right now, before that case is charged, you're in a position of power where you can negotiate: "All right, well, here's the deal. I'll give you this other stuff, but here's what I [unclear: "want" / "don't want"] out of it." And your information is, you know, valuable now. I mean, it's valuable to you, and it's valuable to us.

Israel Keyes: It's only valuable to me as long as I still have it. I mean, I don't... There's nothing.

Special Agent Jolene Goeden: But the value is that it'll be in the agreement, and we're bound to the agreement.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: Yeah. And the value is also, you know, that they would, you know, they would use it at Capital Crimes to justify whatever decision they have to make there, confidentially. So there's that. You know, there's other stuff, in terms of limiting the amount of information. You know, yeah, you know, if we keep going the way we are, then there's no agreements, and who knows what people will use. But there's a way now to kind of...

Israel Keyes: Well, you should know, because you're the one I gave the information to at this point.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: What I'm saying is that if we sort of strike a deal on it, and it limits what we're, you know, we [unclear: "all have bosses" / "all boss" / "are boss"], like I said. They're going to tell us, "Hey, you know, you have to present all this information in court to justify whatever decision the jury's going to make on him." But if there's a binding agreement that says otherwise, you know, at least then we have a reason not to. And then we, we're bound not to do that. And that could avoid the negative consequences that you're concerned about. I think there's a way to do it. I just don't want to shut any doors here.

Israel Keyes: Well, I don't either. But, you know, the problem is, is I think you're trying to open all the doors at once, and I still don't even know what's behind door number one. So...

Special Agent Jolene Goeden: What do you mean, open all the doors at once? Because I don't...

Israel Keyes: That's what, that's what this letter is asking for. You want, you know, to an extent, as much information as you can get. And I still have no idea what's going to happen with it. You know, if, if this doesn't work out, from my perspective, then you still have your information, and then I still have no idea what's going to happen to me. So...

Special Agent Jolene Goeden: But I think up front, all we get is jurisdiction. If I...

Officer Jeff Bell: We already know the numbers, right?

Special Agent Jolene Goeden: So, yeah, all, all we get up front is jurisdiction.

Officer Jeff Bell: So all we're getting is where.

Special Agent Jolene Goeden: And not even a specific where. Just...

Officer Jeff Bell: A jurisdiction.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: Not a year, not anything else, not a name. It's just to fulfill your needs, to kind of simply say, "Hey, I don't want this to be a problem in [unclear: "me getting what I want" / "I forget what I want"]."

Israel Keyes: I mean, if I'm going to give you any information, I would just rather have something that's tangible that I get for it, you know?

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: I mean, let's talk about it. I mean, again, there are no promises, but, you know, let's...

Israel Keyes: [Well, if] it's not a promise, then it's not very tangible.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: Well, it's, it's tangible in that we can, you know, [unclear: "show" / "assure"] you what we're going to do. Some of this, like you said, [is] out of our hands, in terms of judge and jury, or...

Israel Keyes: No, I, yeah. No, I get that.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: But hey, you know, tangible is a letter from a jurisdiction that says, "I'm not going to prosecute you." I mean, that's tangible.

Israel Keyes: I'm, I'm talking about something that says, like I say, my main concern has always been, um, the amount of information that's released that I have given you. The details, certain details. Um, you know, to me that's a major concern, and I don't, and, and right now I'm still really fuzzy on, you know, what I want... Sounds like, I don't know, from what I've been hearing, it sounds like it has to come out. If, if it goes to the death penalty sentencing phase, it sounds like all that stuff is going to come out, and I don't know, it's just...

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: I mean, let's, that's why...

Israel Keyes: And, and, and in the meantime, I'm also concerned about you releasing that information anyway, as, as, whether you're doing it to piss me off, or whether you're doing it to get the public's attention, or for whatever reason, you know.

Special Agent Jolene Goeden: So let's control that, Israel. None of that has to come out. Or the stuff that you don't want to come out doesn't have to, if we negotiate and agree upon what that is.

Israel Keyes: Right. That's what I'm saying. I, it...

Special Agent Jolene Goeden: So let's do that.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: Yes. You know, look, I didn't write that letter to say, "Hey, take it or, or leave it." I mean, it's, I gave it to you, let you review it. You know, agreements are negotiated all the time.

Officer Jeff Bell: What would you like to see in there that's not?

Israel Keyes: No, I don't, I don't know. I, because I don't even know what's possible at this point. All I know is, you know, I, with all the information that I've given you, [inaudible].

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: Um, I can come up with a plan C, you know, if you want. And my plan C would look something like this. You know, Israel sort of controls the amount that comes out in the sentencing of the Curriers. You know, we can agree upon what that is. Maybe, you know, sort of a, you know, brief statement of, "I killed this person, and they are buried here," right? Um, you know, in exchange for, obviously, we're going to do all those things in advance to get your assurances of non-prosecution. But then you're also controlling the extent of information that comes out. So, I mean, I think, you know, look, like I said, it's sort of a catch-22. You want to have the death penalty imposed upon you; the more information the judge [or] jury has, the more likely that would be. But, you know, I guess my plan C is, well, you know, then at least we can kind of do quantity over, hey, you know, details of what happened. I think that, you know...

Israel Keyes: But the time to do that is at sentencing, not now.

Officer Jeff Bell: Mm-hm. No, well, I mean, we have to get started on it to at least corroborate it and get those assurances from those jurisdictions, right?

Special Agent Jolene Goeden: Otherwise, if it comes out at sentencing, you get charged [with it].

Israel Keyes: See, this is the stuff I don't know. I don't, I mean, how, how the hell do I know we have to do it now? For all I know, you can charge me, and then at the time of the sentencing, you know, you can say, "Look, there's this additional information." I just don't see where I have any incentive to give you any more information right now, because all this stuff is going to happen to me anyway. I mean, whether I'm charged federally or in Vermont, I don't even understand how they can charge me in Vermont, because Feldis told me this was a federal crime. So that's, that was the whole idea of me giving you, like, the guns and the silencers and all that crap, because I thought it was all going to be federal. And now you're telling, saying, they want to charge me locally, and I don't even, whatever. You know, you're the lawyer, so...

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: I think that nothing, you know, there's nothing that can't be overcome here. All right? And, and that's what I'm just trying to work on. You know, I just try to figure out a way where everybody gets closest to their goal. I think we can do that.

Israel Keyes: Oh, you're going to get your goals.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: You know, I don't know that. What, do we just go back, I'm going to show the guys, "Hey, don't worry, Israel said we're going to get what we want, so don't worry, guys." I mean, you know what they're going to say to that. You know, this way, at least if there's an agreement, we can show them, I can go, it's not just Israel saying, it's an agreement that, you know, we have, that, you know, he's going to get us close to our goals, we're going to get him as close as we can to his goals. And, uh, you know, hey, we're both walking away leaving something at the table. Jurisdictions are walking away and leaving something at the table. I mean, we'd have to get those assurances, and, you know, that's something that's going to take time. And that would prevent you from, you know, the detriment of getting dragged around, which is something you told us you want to avoid. And I'm just trying to keep it together, right? I think this is the best way.

Israel Keyes: [See,] that's another concern I have, is, is, you know, I give you this information, things don't work out my way, I still get dragged around.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: How do you figure?

Israel Keyes: Because, because if plan A doesn't work, then all these other jurisdictions are going to go to plan B and charge me separately for everything that I've done.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: Plan A, though, before we can get to it, would require them to write a letter saying they're not, saying they wouldn't, right?

Israel Keyes: [unclear: "Well, I'm okay" / "I'm hoping"]. It's not on here now. I mean...

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: Well, we can put it on there. I mean, you know, look, that's, that's a starting point. It's a three-page letter, not even. Like I said, that needs to kind of go into a more comprehensive agreement. But, you know, don't get frustrated with the terms. Everything is, you know, you have some other concerns you identified today, we change the letter. You know, we, we work on it. But we don't just get frustrated and kind of walk away, because that's, you know, that puts people in a corner. We don't want to put you in a corner. We don't want to be in a corner. I think we both know that the best way to proceed on this is the way we have been proceeding, and doing it as quietly as possible. I think, you know...

Israel Keyes: I just, well, that's my whole issue right now, is it hasn't been very quiet. There was already, like, freaking pages online about [me], I don't know...

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: [Pages] speculating.

Israel Keyes: Yeah. But, you know, spec... I don't know, whatever. Speculation, fact, does it really matter [nowadays]?

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: Well, you know, I think it does. I think you said that last time we met. [It's like, one reporter] reported something, but it's not reality yet. And, you know, I just am trying to negotiate a resolution that, look, it's going to control Vermont, because, you know, [we] learn from it, and it's going to help us avoid that problem in other jurisdictions. You know, we can control, certainly, what's introduced. Like I said, if there is a way where you're cooperating with us, and we can represent [to the] court [that you're] cooperating, there may be a way to keep that cooperation under seal in, in court.

Israel Keyes: Yeah, I know, that's what I'm concerned about. But, [like] I say, there's, the Currier case is not the only one I'm concerned about right now.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: Let's deal with those concerns on the other cases. I mean, that's why the whole, you know, aim of the plan is to kind of get their buy-off before we do [anything]. You know, [if] we can't go to them and simply, you know, have someone say, "Hey, you know, we just need your buy-off on this," the assurance, you know, it's difficult to kind of control things. I, I agree. I, you know, I do think that you're going to follow through on your end, but...

Israel Keyes: I just, I just think at this point, I, I'm kind of, feel like I'm in a position where I've given you a certain amount of information. None of it has, or I shouldn't say none of it, about half of what I thought we had an understanding on, you know, from the very beginning, hasn't worked out in my favor. Granted, you know, some things haven't worked out in your favor, but I just think at this point, I just don't see what incentive I have to tell you anything else. I've got, I mean, day to day, I got day-to-day issues, and, you know, we come over here, and we sit in this room, and I still don't know what's going on with, like I say, with, with everything that we've talked about.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: And in terms of the other [case], obviously that's on you and, and your lawyers, to kind of, to do whatever you see fit. In terms of the Currier case, that's what I can control, and that's what I can help control, at least, um, to the extent that I can assure them that things are in the works. You know, look, I can tell them, and I have told them, look, he's going to cooperate and continue giving us some of this stuff in exchange for some of the, you know, some discretion. But, you know, they, they don't know you, and, you know...

Israel Keyes: I don't expect any sympathy from anyone.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: No. [And] they're not. That's exactly the point.

Israel Keyes: Let's be realistic.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: I am being realistic. They're not, they're not sympathetic at all. That's why they're saying, "Well, you know, got a case on him. I guess we can go ahead and charge him." Right?

Israel Keyes: Exactly. So...

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: What I'm trying to tell them is, look, that's maybe not the best thing to accomplish everybody's goals. And if I have something that I can take to them, I can maybe, you know, just put that off. So that's all I'm trying to deal with. Like, you know, I think there's a way to kind of circumscribe and, and limit the information in court. I think there's a way to write that into the agreement. I think there's a way to [unclear: "bring" / "put"] a global settlement. You know, but if you want to put a Band-Aid on it, as they call it, and let's, let's try to deal with the Vermont situation, I'm amenable to doing that too.

Israel Keyes: I, yeah. I don't know. I don't... Um, yeah, there's just a lot of stuff. [inaudible] Why is it, why is it carjacking anyway?

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: [Well,] you took their, uh, their, put them in the car.

Israel Keyes: Is that because it was their car and not mine or something?

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: Yeah.

Israel Keyes: So if it had been my car, [it] would have been kidnapping, or what?

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: Yeah, it depends on, you know, the method of kidnapping.

Israel Keyes: It's [unclear: "just weird. Carjacking" / "a weird card" / "a weird project"].

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: Yeah, kind of makes you seem like a gang member.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: Um, I'm just trying to think about Vermont, and maybe how to buy time over there.

Israel Keyes: I don't... Like, they've already released enough information. They're going to get hounded endlessly until they release my name now. So...

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: Yeah, but if I can, you know, give them something that kind of gives them comfort and gives the family comfort, then, you know, maybe we can delay things there until at least you find out what's going on in your other situation.

Israel Keyes: I don't, like I say, it doesn't matter. As far as Vermont goes, everybody already assumes I did it, so...

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: Yeah, but no one's really...

Israel Keyes: My own family pretty much [assumes] I did it, so...

Special Agent Jolene Goeden: But one of your goals was to not get charged out there. That was one of the things you told us the other day, that you didn't want [to have to go] back there.

Israel Keyes: No, I don't.

Special Agent Jolene Goeden: So that is something that we can still...

Officer Jeff Bell: So, ideally, what would that, what would that say? You said there was some, you know, what, how would you have that read? What information would you have released about the... I mean, you control everything beyond the Curriers, because you're only, you only tell us whatever you want to be released. What, what would you, what would be acceptable to you to be released that you think would meet your goal in this case? And, like [Frank] was talking about, quantity.

Israel Keyes: Well, it sounds like right now I don't even know if this is going to be charged by Vermont or by the feds. And...

Officer Jeff Bell: So what would you want it to say regarding that?

Israel Keyes: See, this is the problem, though, because I don't even know what's possible.

Special Agent Jolene Goeden: It does, it does talk about that, if this, this offer outlines a proposal, you plead guilty to the conduct in Alaska, which would prevent you from having to go back and face charges in Vermont, either state or federal, back there.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: Yeah, that would be the goal. That's the goal of this letter, is let's keep it here. You know, at least...

Special Agent Jolene Goeden: So if that's [inaudible].

Israel Keyes: I just don't understand why they even want [to charge me] there in the first place.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: Well, you know, it's, it's also, they have family members that they feel like they're close to, and I'm just giving you, you know, their perspective they gave me. They want to kind of make sure that family members see justice, and, you know, they, they feel like it's a Vermont crime, and the community needs to, to know that type of thing. And, you know, that, that's their sentiment. It may not make sense to you, but I understand it from a law enforcement perspective that, you know, hey, you committed a crime there, you should be able to account for it. That's typically their take on things. And it would probably be our take on things too, if it happened in reverse. All right? But I think there, there's, there's a way to just be able to kind of at least put them off for a little while, while you're thinking about other things and thinking about a global resolution we can, we can work on. But, you know, like I said, that's a way for us to get close to our goals. If you want sort of a smaller way, I can come up with one.

Israel Keyes: No, I mean, your goals at this point are pretty easy. My goal is not to get charged for [the Curriers] seven, eight different times, or whatever.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: And that's a goal we can, that's a goal we can help you with.

Special Agent Jolene Goeden: That, that addresses everything.

Israel Keyes: Right. No, I understand that's, that is something I still have in my control. I mean, apparently it's already out of my control. I'm already going to get charged twice.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: Well, so we can, you know, at least have that just rolled in here, and just...

Israel Keyes: Right. No, [I understand], trying to do that, but I would rather have it all hammered out. This, this just seems...

Special Agent Jolene Goeden: Well, you know what...

Israel Keyes: ...really preemptive right now. It's like there's got to be a way to do it to where I get something a little more concrete. And then, you know, then I know for sure that that's it. It's not going to keep going on and on from one [to the next].

Special Agent Jolene Goeden: So, what, what's an example of what you mean by concrete? Like, what would you, I guess I'm not clear on what you want.

Officer Jeff Bell: Well, that's, that's within our control. What, what, what could we put in there in writing that is...

Israel Keyes: I don't know that there's... I don't know. I don't...

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: What types of ideas, you know, would you like? I mean, just plain ideas that we [can] work with. And I think I have some thoughts on, you know, a couple different ways we can try to work on this. You know, I just need to know what your concrete ideas are, because, you know, that's, that's what you want. I mean, I, I tried to write that with your goals in mind, based upon the flip chart of what your goals are. And, you know, I think I tried to satisfy those. And, you know, to the extent you have other goals and other ideas, then, you know, we work it in.

Israel Keyes: Yeah, I'm just not so sure I even have that goal anymore. I mean, like I say, if I, they're going to, [unclear: "if me looking" / "it means looking"] for the death penalty is going to make this into a bigger [unclear: "circus" / "surface"] than it already is, and they're going to take all this information that I, of the things that I've done, and put it in a public sentencing hearing...

Special Agent Jolene Goeden: It doesn't have to happen that way, though.

Israel Keyes: Well, I don't know that, though, because I've been told it does. So this is the problem.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: All I can tell you is the United States government controls what evidence is introduced into court. And I represent them. So I have absolute control over what evidence I put in.

Israel Keyes: Right. Well, that's good to know.

Special Agent Jolene Goeden: And if it says in here what evidence gets introduced, that's what Frank has to go by.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: Yeah. And no one's going to tell me that, you know, here's what I have to do. Now, obviously there's, you know, bosses everywhere that'll try to tell you stuff, but if we have an agreement that binds those people, then, you know, it is what it is. Court doesn't have any right to demand more information from us. Court has to let us try our case. And I decide all the time at trial, "I'm not going to put that person on," even though maybe they could help my case, but it's not worth it to me. It's not worth it to me, because I have some other goal in mind. It's legal strategy 101; happens every day. So, you know, that is in my control. That's what I'm telling you. And so, you want something that's within my control? It's as simple as that.

Israel Keyes: [unclear: "Oh boy" / inaudible]. [I'm going to end up in] max lockdown year after year, [and you guys] bouncing [me] around.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: Doesn't have to be that way.

Israel Keyes: Call it a premonition.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: Doesn't have to be that way. We're trying to avoid that. Everybody in this room, I can tell you, is trying to avoid it being a circus. We're just trying to get, you know, what we want, let people know, our bosses, that we're getting what we want, and we've got [some] assurances. You negotiate what you want. If we wanted to screw you, I wouldn't be sitting here drafting a letter to you about "here's what we're going to do for you", and, you know, I wouldn't be in here. You know, [if] we wanted to go ahead and just try to make you a villain, we could just go and do that. All right?

Israel Keyes: [inaudible]

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: Well, you know, look, you're concerned about the extent to which...

Israel Keyes: Well, there's certain things... From an entertainment perspective, from my perspective, yeah, it would be really fun to have all this stuff come out. But, you know, I'm not trying to [unclear: "single-handedly give my mom a heart attack" / "sing any of my normal heart attack" / "say my name, but you're gonna run all the hard drives"]. But I still think there's got to be something more that I can get out of giving more information. I just... But I don't, I haven't seen anything yet.

Officer Jeff Bell: What do you want?

Israel Keyes: I want to know what's going to happen.

Officer Jeff Bell: You want to know when, what's going to happen and when? You want to know...

Israel Keyes: Yeah.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: You want to know how much information is going to be released publicly? Let's flesh that out a little bit more.

Israel Keyes: Well, first of all, we can't, we can't talk about it.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: Okay.

Israel Keyes: And that's the biggest problem of all.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: Okay.

Israel Keyes: Secondly, there's this problem with Vermont, that they already have enough information on me. They want, you know, they want to make it public or whatever, one way or the other, whatever. Honestly, I don't really give... I don't care if this Currier thing gets charged in Vermont or gets charged federally. I, because right now I'm, it's not, either way, it's, it seems like it's just going to keep dragging on, and I've got other, more immediate concerns.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: Well, the immediate concerns... I mean, here, here's an idea to deal with the immediate concerns. Um, you want time to deal with those immediate concerns, and, you know, Vermont is obviously, you know, under some pressure to kind of make a decision in terms of charging. [If] there's a way I can at least go back to them as [a] Band-Aid and say, "Look, um, we're going to, you know, move forward on part of the plan." Let's assume we go back to the sort of, just the New York thing, and we simply say, "Part of the plan, give it a try: he's going to provide just the jurisdiction where the person is [unclear: "taken" / "headed"]. If you agree to kind of put off charging and just do the same thing you're doing. Just put off the press, put off charging, just say investigation's continuing." There's a way to go back to them and do that, for, like I just said, you know, [a] Band-Aid type of thing, just to, to buy us some time. I'll be happy to try that.

Israel Keyes: I, no, I don't. Like I say, I don't care. They've already released the information in the media. You know, they're going to charge me for it. You're going to charge me for it either way. The whole thing wasn't even supposed to [inaudible].

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: [Well, there's a way] to, you know, at least put that off. And, you know, if there's a way to put that off, maybe there's a way to strike a bigger deal down the road. You know, if we buy some time for ourselves. And obviously that would entail, though, getting the assurance before you gave any information. So, I mean, look, it's a Band-Aid. It allows you to get an assurance, but it also [unclear: "provides" / "allows"] you time to think about your ultimate goals and what you want in an agreement.

Special Agent Jolene Goeden: That also gives you a chance to see if this plan will work, which I, I sense is part of your concern.

Israel Keyes: Yeah, it doesn't... It says that this plan, it says right in this plan that this plan might not work. So...

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: Not, not from our perspective. As I said, look...

Israel Keyes: [Not the] kind of thing you want to [see] [inaudible].

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: Which part are you talking about? Which part are you talking about?

Israel Keyes: It says, "Understand that we have no control over" what the...

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: The Attorney General?

Israel Keyes: Right. So that's, I mean, but that's, that could follow through with this entire thing, [or] the majority...

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: [Yeah, but] then you get to walk away.

Israel Keyes: There's, there's nothing in it that anybody has any control over.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: No, I think, I think we do have control over things, and you have control over things, because that I put in there just, you know, the Attorney General thing, [unclear: "a difference" / inaudible] for what you want. Because if you're not getting what you want, then I understand you don't have a benefit. If the Attorney General comes back and says, you know, "Life in prison is what I want you to seek," that's not going to make you happy. And then, you know, the benefit of your bargain is, is lost, in my mind. And that's why I put it in there. But look, you know, I think we didn't want to write this letter by saying, you know, the Attorney General is not, never going to guarantee what's going to happen. We can't make the Attorney General guarantee what's going to happen. We can only make full [information] available. So that's just a sort of acknowledgment that the Attorney General is an independent body who gets to make a decision, you know, whatever, whatever he sees fit, based on whatever information. You know, look, as much as there is, you know, the main crux of this deal is you getting control over the prosecution of cases, you getting control over, if you want, the extent of information, you getting some guarantees over that, in exchange [for] us moving forward as quickly as possible, with you controlling, you know, some of the deadlines. So I, I do think you get what you want. I mean, look, we just can't, you know, I don't have the authority to speak to the Attorney General. But I'd like to put a deadline on him too, you know, and say, "Hey, you've got to come back with a decision next week." But he's not going to listen to me.

Israel Keyes: Well, there's another factor that just, just occurred to me recently, with the sentencing portion, is if whoever happens to be sentencing me knows that the death penalty is what I want, there's a chance that, uh, there could be some reverse psychology going into play there, and they're going to want to give me the opposite of what I want.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: Well, I think you even talked about that at one point, and that was part of your thought, that you'd go before a jury rather than a judge.

Israel Keyes: Yeah, but I'm just saying [it could work either way].

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: Yeah, I mean, that's possible.

Israel Keyes: There's just a lot of [unclear: "unknowns" / "money"]...

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: I mean, look, yeah, I mean, it would be, you know...

Israel Keyes: Maybe this, you know...

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: You can't guarantee... Like I said, I can't guarantee what a judge is going to do. I can't guarantee what a jury's going to do.

Israel Keyes: You just work out a whole under-the-table resolution.

Officer Jeff Bell: The other, the other way to look at that, though, is, too, is if you think that's a possibility, with that reverse psychology. I mean, I guess, by, if they think you have something still to offer, maybe, maybe that would be an option. If not, then, you know what I mean? [If] they still think there's information to, to be had. Whereas if we had an agreement where all the information was going to come out, I, I mean, I think that might be less likely. You know what I mean?

Israel Keyes: Yeah.

Officer Jeff Bell: [That's the only] reason I think they could look at something like that.

Israel Keyes: This whole thing... Everybody just makes too big of a deal out of this stuff.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: We're trying...

Israel Keyes: Bigger problems in the world we could be worrying about right now.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: Well, this is, you know, one problem a day, and this is sort of a problem that we all have, and we're trying to come up with, you know, a solution that we get both, both of us get closer to our goal. And that's what I've been working on. I'll come up with another plan. I'm happy to kind of keep working on it. I'm happy to redraft the letter. I'm happy to kind of call whoever I need to call. But, you know, I think, uh, I don't want to close the door on things.

Israel Keyes: Well, I don't see that that's an option at this point.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: No, I think we all understand that, but we're just concerned that...

Israel Keyes: My, at this point, [I'm thinking it's] pretty obvious to me that whatever's going to happen is going to happen. And I haven't been able to control, [haven't] really been able to control any of the information I've given out. And once I've given it out, that's pretty much been it. So...

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: I think you're wrong about that. I mean, think about [the] Tupper Lake bank robbery. Has anybody come to question you about that Tupper Lake bank robbery?

Israel Keyes: No, I'm not...

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: Arson in Texas. Burglary in Texas. No one's talked to you about that, right? Bank robbery in Texas.

Israel Keyes: It's probably kind of like small potatoes, [but]...

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: Maybe so, but look...

Israel Keyes: No, I, look...

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: [The] Currier thing was the only thing.

Israel Keyes: Yes, all right. Yeah. Okay, great. So all this stuff hasn't come out, but I don't know. I, I just, I just have some concerns with the, these other... First of all, like I say, there's, I can't see that there's anything [for me to gain] at this point. Seems like whatever is going to happen is going to happen regardless.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: I, again, I'll disagree with you on that. But, like I said, I think we can control it. [inaudible] Yeah, you know, there was one cop in Vermont who spoke when he shouldn't have, and, you know, yeah, we've got to eat that. Sorry about it. It wasn't, you know, that wasn't our plan.

Israel Keyes: Well, like I say, what's done is done.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: Yeah. So, but I mean, with the exception of that, I think you remarked before that you've been impressed about the level of discretion that we've displayed.

Israel Keyes: Yeah. No, that's, well, mostly I was referring to the Alaska stuff. But yeah, that's great. That's fine.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: The Alaskan stuff we have, you know, obviously more control over. But, um, you know, the, the other jurisdictions we're just trying to control now. I don't want to get in a position where I lose complete control, or we lose complete control in this room, about what happens in Vermont. And that's just sort of what I was thinking about in terms of, you know, that [letter]. It's just trying to kind of keep things under wraps there, and have them join back together with us, to go back to almost that letter. I thought the letter was, was going to accomplish that, getting us where we need to go. And so I'm just trying to figure out a way to kind of get back there. I think that's where we want to be.

Israel Keyes: Well, I mean, even hypothetically, even if we had come to an agreement with that letter, that reporter still would have released their information.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: Yeah, but look, it says, "[We] will not identify Mr. Keyes [as the perpetrator] of crimes he's committed [in Vermont], or charge him separately in our jurisdiction, without your authorization."

Israel Keyes: Right.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: That's the part that, you know, I'm trying to get back. And in order to get that back, I've got to buy it with something. You know, politically, I've got to [be able to] give them something to say, "All right, here's [why] we're not doing it." And we're going to, you know, if someone questions us down the road, we have some reason to say here's why we [didn't] do it. And so that's just, there's a whole, like, law enforcement side, you know, and then there's a whole political side to this too, that, you know, we're trying to kind of tamp down as well.

Israel Keyes: [inaudible] *[About 1:23:25 to 1:25:00: a long pause, with no speech in the machine readings apart from an isolated "Thank you" at 1:23:54 in Whisper, treated as an artefact.]*

Israel Keyes: [Yeah,] I don't know. [Starting to] think I'm more efficient [than the government].

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: Well, I think you're, you certainly, uh, you're good at planning stuff.

Officer Jeff Bell: In what way?

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: You're good at planning stuff, and that's what I'm trying to do here, is, is simply come up with a plan. And I'm seeking your input on the plan.

Officer Jeff Bell: You're a planner and organizer. We can use those skills now to work towards a different goal here.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: Yeah.

Israel Keyes: You know, there's only certain things I like to plan.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: I'm trying to plan, and I'm trying to, you know, give Vermont some [little glimmer] of hope, [in the hopes of] accomplishing a bigger goal. You know, if we can't accomplish the major one, or we have to kind of redraft that letter and get some more concrete terms, and you want to see what happens, fine.

Israel Keyes: [Yeah,] I see, I don't even know. Like I say, I don't even know what's possible.

Israel Keyes: Well, apparently my peeps didn't want to be here.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: Well, I mean, they can be here if you [want].

Officer Jeff Bell: Remember what that says, is that, uh, if you want them here, that they will, they will be here immediately, I think, is what it says.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: Mr. Curtner is supposed to come [according to the court order].

Israel Keyes: I thought you were always just reading that so [you could boot] me out [if he didn't show up].

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: [To boot] you [out if] what?

Officer Jeff Bell: No, I mean, that's, that's your right. That's an option that the judge has said, is if you, if we're here and you request him, we give him a call, and he, according to this, the judge's order, he has to come immediately.

Israel Keyes: I don't [even care if he's here physically], it'd be nice if one of these times [we] could have [a meeting and discuss] [inaudible].

Officer Jeff Bell: Well, I think he has it highlighted, is exactly what it says.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: Yeah, I was looking at it just to be sure. [It's] anytime Mr. Keyes [wants] counsel, counsel becomes immediately available. That's what it says.

Israel Keyes: Well, I know [I'm entitled to counsel]. I understand that.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: Counsel becomes available immediately. So, you know, that's up to you, if you want to discuss other crimes with counsel present. And your other counsel, standby counsel's Mr. Curtner. You know, we can, we can arrange that with him.

Officer Jeff Bell: We could call him at your request, see what he says.

Israel Keyes: Well, [I] already requested it. [Like] I say, [this meeting] was supposed to [get set up two days ago].

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: Well, you didn't request it through us, just to be clear, right?

Israel Keyes: [No, not through you.] I'm just saying there's...

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: If you're requesting that from us now, we're going to stop now, and we're going to step out of the room and make [a] call.

Israel Keyes: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I don't know. It sounds like there's nothing else we can talk about unless...

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: I want to kind of obey the court order, [if] that's something you [are interested in].

Israel Keyes: I don't know what else, I don't know what else you have to offer me. And, um, I, yeah, so I, I mean, I'm not, I'm not happy with what the letter is. It lays out the possibilities, but I don't know if those are the only possibilities. You know, I don't know.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: [Let's] just take a break.

Israel Keyes: This whole thing is, this whole thing is, like I say, it's premature.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: Let me, uh, let's take a break for a second and step out, [and I want to] make sure we're respecting your rights.

Israel Keyes: I'm fine to talk. I'm fine to talk for, speak for myself. I'm just saying there's other things that need to be discussed in these meetings that we can't talk about unless, at least as it stands now, unless my attorney is here. So...

Officer Jeff Bell: But this says right here, if you request us to, to, uh, get a hold of him, we'll do that.

Israel Keyes: Right.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: So I guess I should ask, just for the record: do you want us to do that?

Officer Jeff Bell: You want us to call Mr. Curtner right now and see if he can come over right now?

Israel Keyes: Yep.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: All right. [We'll] do that.

Officer Jeff Bell: You have to take a leak or anything?

Israel Keyes: Yes, [if I could].

Officer Jeff Bell: Let us [inaudible]. *[Break. The recording resumes, apparently edited, at about 1:30:28, with Keyes's standby counsel Rich Curtner now present (Anchorage Daily News: a second session of 31 minutes with Curtner the same day).]*

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: So, where did we leave off?

Israel Keyes: What's going on with the Koenig [case]?

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: All right, here's what we have. Capital Crimes has the memo. All right? It went in last week. So, um, there was some, the U.S. Attorney was a little bit, um, hesitant, because there was some concerns that you didn't want to sign the, uh, agreement.

Israel Keyes: What agreement?

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: The, um, the, uh, agreement she wrote to, uh...

Israel Keyes: The one [unclear: "negating" / "to getting"] the first...

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: Yeah. Yeah.

Israel Keyes: Right. But when we, we spoke in the last meeting we had, when we were all there, and it was on recording, and I said I didn't want, that wasn't supposed to be on the table in the first place.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: Okay.

Israel Keyes: And I asked Feldis in that, at the end of that meeting, if there was anything else he needed, and he said no.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: Yeah. Then what happened there is we went back to the U.S. Attorney, and her impression, she said, "Look, the original one was in writing, so I'd like it to be in writing as well." So, so she, um, wrote another letter, and obviously, uh, you know, you've seen this, and so it basically said, "Hey, you know," just like the comfort of it. And then there was a court order as well that basically, you know, prohibited us from doing anything with Capital Crimes until Judge Roberts reconsidered that. Um, and so we got that rescinded. But then after that, um, you know, we wrote a bunch of other letters, seeing whether or not that was your, still your intent, because the U.S. Attorney was very concerned that, you know, you might want to change your mind, and she didn't want to welsh on a deal that she had promised you.

Israel Keyes: So it sounds like the short story is you put in your memo and you did not recommend the death [penalty].

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: I, I can't tell you what the U.S. Attorney recommended. I'm not, I'm prohibited from doing that. I mean, I can just give you, I mean, you probably have seen these letters that she [wrote].

Israel Keyes: I saw a couple of them.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: Okay. So she, she wrote a couple letters, and then I wrote a letter to confirm. And the last letter basically said, you know, the first paragraph... I don't know if Mr. Curtner wants to show this to you.

Attorney Rich Curtner: I already, he's already seen all the letters.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: So the last letter was, you know, [inaudible] "Mr. Curtner did not say that Mr. Keyes has changed his mind. Mr. Keyes still wants U.S. Attorney Loeffler to make her recommendation unbound from any promises contained in the March 30 letter. I have conveyed this information to U.S. Attorney Loeffler." So that's where it stood. So that was the last piece of the puzzle there. And then she decided, okay, I'm going to send my recommendation after that. She sent, uh, her recommendation in, so they have it. This week they wrote back saying, um, giving opportunities for a conference. I think Karen mentioned this to you, Rich.

Attorney Rich Curtner: [She] told me you were going to give me [some potential] dates.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: Yeah. We have four dates, um, for conference. And that's an opportunity for your lawyers to meet with Capital Crimes and present information about mitigation, about, you know, not seeking the, the death penalty. And those are August 6th, August 13th, September 4th, and September 17th. Those are the four possible dates that we have. Um, and the procedure is, as I understand it, is they invite your attorneys back there, and, uh, you know, they get to argue that the death penalty shouldn't be imposed, [if] that's what you want. I don't, I'm not privy to your discussions, so I don't know what...

Israel Keyes: What happens if I don't have any attorneys? Um, do I get to be at the meeting?

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: Well, I mean, I think, obviously, whatever, you know, that's between you and your attorneys. But, um, your position, I think, is made known through your attorneys. That's my understanding of the process at this point. So your position has to be made known to the Capital Crimes Review Committee through your attorneys. And I don't know whether, you know, what your discussions were, but, and I don't know, Rich, if you plan to try to present mitigation. It doesn't, sounds like you still don't want mitigation in that case. In other words, you seem like you still are on course.

Attorney Rich Curtner: Well, I would just tell you, we're still, these are complex issues. We're still exploring all this. Um, you know, I, I don't know if, um, you know, we talk about this with Israel all the time. I don't understand, I don't know if he completely understands all the procedures involved and the gravity of this type of decision. So, you know, we're, this, we're in ongoing discussions, private discussions, with Israel about [this].

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: Sure.

Israel Keyes: But the, like I, like I was saying before, there's a lot of aspects of the Koenig case that, um, if it were to go to sentencing [and a] death penalty hearing, that I wouldn't want to be public. Same as with the Curriers, like, like we were saying earlier.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: [And what it...]

Israel Keyes: But, but I have no, you know, I, it doesn't matter what I sign or what deals we work out. It sounds like there's no way you can give me any assurance as to whether or not those issues are going to come up [at a hearing].

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: That can be something, as I told him before we got here, we can discuss in the context of the global settlement. He's concerned about the details coming up in open court. All right? Now, to the extent that, you know, we want to limit that, maybe we can do that in a global agreement, in exchange for, you know, information about these other homicides. And that's what I was suggesting to him. I'm sure you've seen the letter I sent to him, saying, you know, we can maybe go with this process and get some assurances from him that he wouldn't be prosecuted by state authorities. And he just brought up this morning, "Well, you know, I'm concerned that the details are going to get out no matter what."

Attorney Rich Curtner: Well, they've already been out. I mean, did you see the video from Vermont? I mean, the whole six-minute video about everything?

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: Of what?

Attorney Rich Curtner: Of Curriers and...

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: I mean, I didn't think that they... They came out, you know, it was one news station reporting it.

Attorney Rich Curtner: Yeah, and everybody that I know of has seen it.

Officer Jeff Bell: Well, but it's, it's basic information. It's not the details that Israel is concerned about, I don't think. And none of the information that he's concerned about getting out has gotten out. And he's talking about the details of the crime, you know.

Attorney Rich Curtner: His family saw it before I did, and that's the whole purpose...

Israel Keyes: Well, that's a concern too. But I mean, that, you know, as far as the Vermont... And that's another concern I have, somewhat, is if, hypothetically, if I give you details on, on other crimes in other states, you know, what's, what's ultimately going to happen? At what point does that information become public knowledge as well? Or does it? Does it have to? What's the procedure for that? Is there some way we can work it out to where, if I give you this information, it stays sealed, or at least limited release, or something? I don't know. I, I don't even know what the options are. But it just seems like in Vermont, as soon as they had the information, they, you know, every, of course everybody wants to know. And it's going to be the same everywhere else too. So...

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: I think we can work with these other jurisdictions by getting those assurances. You know, as I've said sort of before, you know, Vermont was something we weren't really sure about, the scope of things. And now that we are, I think we can proceed better to kind of get assurances, at least from the local jurisdictions, that, you know, A, they're not going to prosecute you, and B, any details you release, you know, at least are not published.

Israel Keyes: Right.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: Now, in terms of what comes out in court, that was your other concern, right?

Israel Keyes: Right. Well, not just what comes out in court, but I'm also concerned about the Koenig case, and that, um, you know, it's a high-profile case up here. And what's going to happen is, as soon as it gets to the point where I plead to that, then all the media is going to want, it's going to be the same thing. They're all going to be clamoring for details, like what happened, and all of that. So how, how are, what efforts are going to be made to control that, if any, and what, I mean...

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: I'm suggesting to you that we can come up with a global agreement which effectively limits what we put out in public, in exchange for information about the other homicides. So if we don't put that out in a court of, you know, law, in public, the media wouldn't learn of it. So that's my suggestion as to sort of a global thing, to wrap Koenig into Curriers and everything else. I mean, obviously, you know, Israel's expressed that he doesn't want to be dragged back to Vermont, which, you know, we're trying to work with him on, and we're trying to work with Vermont on. And it's become a little bit difficult, because things have slowed down a little bit. Um, you know, we'd like to wrap that in and keep him here and keep him in one place. But we're going to need some sort of assurances for them that he's going to continue to cooperate. And that's what Vermont has wanted. So, in order to kind of...

Israel Keyes: I don't care about what comes out about the Currier [case]... I guess my point is, I can try and limit the information that comes out on all this other stuff, but if, if what comes, if, if the details of the Koenig case come out, it doesn't matter how many other details we suppress on the other [crimes].

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: And that's what I'm suggesting to you, is sort of a global settlement, where there's an agreement to only go into certain details of the Koenig case and the Currier case. Even though you told them about them, there's been no limitation on those. We now put limitations on those, and we put...

Israel Keyes: [Right.] And, but that's, that's what I want to make clear before we go any further on anything, is, um, to have something somewhat concrete in writing, you know, saying that that information isn't going to come out when the time comes, you know, that I do plead guilty to the Koenig case or whatever, whatever happens. But whenever the next release of information to the public is, I, you know, whatever, whatever else we've been working on becomes null and void if all of a sudden there's this flood of information about what happened in the Koenig case, and I've pled guilty to it, and then it doesn't matter.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: And in return, I mean, for not introducing that information, we'd want information about the other murders.

Israel Keyes: I understand that. I don't, like I say, I don't care. Like, all the other, anything else, it doesn't matter that much.

Attorney Rich Curtner: What I would suggest is, I've talked to Israel about a global settlement. Let me work, let me see if we can, because he's, I think, definitely going to need counsel to understand, to know what the global settlement is. I'd like to work with him and see if we can come up with something everybody can agree to on a global settlement. But...

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: Yeah, no, that's what I'm working towards too.

Attorney Rich Curtner: But I need some time.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: No, I agree. I mean, I just need to know what the demands are. And that was the first time that that's really, you know, you know, obviously it's not in the letter, the level of detail. And, you know, I'm happy to work something out and try to get approval for what I'm suggesting. Obviously, you know, what he wants, it seems to be, "I want the death penalty imposed." Now, that's a catch-22 situation. You understand? Because the more information the jury or judge has, the more likely it may be that they may impose that. All right? Um, if we take that away, it may be less likely. But that's something, hey, I, again, I've told you, I don't really care what sentence you, you know, get imposed upon you. You're the one who cares about it. But, uh, I'll be up front with you. Yeah, [if] they don't have that level of detail, I think you probably would want to have, you know, additional murders in there to justify the decision you want them to reach. It's sort of a quantity versus quality.

Israel Keyes: Right. I, I understand that. I'm just saying, um, yeah, so they have all the numbers. That's fine. But that's what, that's the only thing they need those numbers for, is the sentencing.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: Yeah, no, it would only come out at the sentencing, but we'd have to get something in return. I mean, right now, yeah, you know, we know about how many people you killed. I mean, that's pretty clear. I mean, that's not a problem. What we want is the information about those murders. And it could be, you know, look, briefly, initially, to protect your interests, to simply say, [unclear: "this person in this jurisdiction, kidnapped them from here" / "this person, this jurisdiction, didn't happen from here"]. And, you know, that would satisfy our goals, and would also satisfy your goals, I think, too. But again, I think we both have to figure out what we want to get out of this. I mean, it's possible to limit that information that's presented, I think, in a sentencing hearing. Again, I'd have to vet this up the chain. But, you know, we can limit Currier and we can limit Koenig, in exchange for the information about the other stuff.

Attorney Rich Curtner: See, this process with the death penalty on the table is a whole new thing for all of us. But we have had many cooperation agreements where there's a sealed [addendum to a] plea, [where] proceedings are closed, where information is not made public, in order to protect, um, in order to protect, you know, any, somebody who's cooperating. Or, in this case, protecting the family of somebody who's cooperating. And so that's something that I'd like to discuss with Israel and [with the government].

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: Yeah, I mean, so that's something that, you know, is sort of a plan A of things we can do, is, you know, hope to put everything under seal and justify it by, one, safety to your family, and two, the fact that these guys are still going to be confirming the information you're providing, and they don't want anybody to interfere with that process. So some of that, you know, again, as Mr. Curtner said, it's, you know, it's different in that it's the death penalty, but it's in some ways the same as what we always do in, in other types of cases involving cooperation. That stuff goes under seal.

Attorney Rich Curtner: That's what I'd like to talk to you about.

Israel Keyes: Yeah, I just, I just, uh, that's why I keep saying all this is kind of tied together for me, because, uh, if certain details of the, of the Koenig case come out, then, you know, anything else...

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: Yeah, it doesn't matter.

Israel Keyes: Right.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: That's sort of like your...

Israel Keyes: That's kind of worst-case scenario. Then everything else I did before that is automatically going to be assumed just as bad. So...

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: It's a fair point. Um, and the problem I'm dealing with, and I'm telling, you know, Israel, this is the problem I'm dealing with, has been, you know, Vermont. And, you know, they're, they feel like they're unbound by any loyalty to us and what has been done for that case, because there's no, you know, assurance that things in the future are going to be done. What I'm trying to do is kind of put their charging decisions off and try to give us some breathing room to figure out how to wrap all this stuff up, rather than do it in two different jurisdictions, perhaps three.

Israel Keyes: I still don't know how I can even make any kind of decision on this if I don't even know... First of all, you know, you say you can't tell me what your recommendation was. Um, I made it clear what I wanted it to be. And so I, you're expecting me to make [a] decision on [everything else].

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: You're saying you made it clear. I mean, you didn't sign the, the agreement, so that wasn't exactly clear.

Israel Keyes: [I] made it verbally clear.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: Yeah. Was there a reason you didn't want to sign this?

Israel Keyes: I didn't get it. And I just found out the other day that the recommendation was already made. So I assume it doesn't matter if I sign it now.

Attorney Rich Curtner: Yeah, I just found out from Karen, at [a] meeting we had on Tuesday. We had a court meeting, [and I talked to her] afterwards. That's when she told me she had already sent in her recommendation.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: Yeah, I mean, you know, she can always change a recommendation.

Israel Keyes: No, I'll sign it now. I, I just, I was told that, you know, it was already done. It was...

Attorney Rich Curtner: The recommendation's already in, [Israel]. And to me, I don't think this is valid anyway. You know our feelings about it, because you've complied with your agreement, [part of the] agreement. I don't...

Israel Keyes: And so, look, I, the bottom line, we already all know how this, how this ends. So, you know, it's, all I care about is what happens between now and whenever it ends. And if, you know, things don't go the way I want, I don't, I don't need you guys.

Attorney Rich Curtner: Let's, let's just talk about it, okay? Let's see if we can resolve it.

Israel Keyes: [I mean, you know,] this whole thing is just turning [into]...

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: No, I mean, I think that there is, you know, look, the U.S. Attorney can always provide additional information to Capital Crimes. Additional, you know, information you'd like to provide, your attorneys would like to provide. She's made that clear in her letters. Um, you know, I think...

Israel Keyes: And what's with this, why, why do they have to go back and meet with, what did you call it? [Mitigation or whatever?]

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: Yeah. Essentially, if, I mean, that's going to be between you and your attorneys. But the process typically is, and in the typical case, is the attorneys argue that, you know, the death penalty shouldn't be imposed.

Israel Keyes: Right. Let's just nix that whole [meeting].

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: [That's between] you and your attorneys.

Israel Keyes: Well, I'm telling you now: if they show up, then they're not [unclear: "authorized" / "afraid" / "an odd way"] to be there.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: Yeah, you can discuss that with them. I mean, we have, we're required by our, our, um, policies to give them an opportunity, and you an opportunity, to do that. So you, you know, you talk to them about what you want them to do. That's, that's between you guys. All right? So, um, but I mean, to the extent that this letter, I mean this, you know, I think the U.S. Attorney would appreciate [unclear: "ratification" / "gratification"] if you did sign this letter.

Israel Keyes: Yeah.

Attorney Rich Curtner: And I just got to put on record, this is against my advice, Israel.

Israel Keyes: [No,] don't worry about it. [inaudible]

Officer Jeff Bell: Have you read that letter, [Israel]?

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: [Why don't you read it just to] make sure.

Officer Jeff Bell: Make sure, make sure you understand it.

Israel Keyes: [inaudible]

Officer Jeff Bell: Have you seen that before?

Israel Keyes: [Yeah.]

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: Okay. So the date of this, just to sort of put the date on, is 7/26.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: But, I mean, I'm, I'll forward this to the U.S. Attorney as well. But I think these dates are pretty quick, and they're, you know...

Israel Keyes: What's the first one? August 5th?

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: August 6th.

Israel Keyes: [Sixth?]

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: That's, I mean, whatever your attorneys and you tell us, I'll, I'll tell them, I'll write them back, you know, today, and say, "All right, here's the date that you can conference this."

Israel Keyes: Then what happens next? Like, if they don't show up?

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: [Then] that goes to the Attorney General.

Israel Keyes: All right.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: So, are there any dates that, uh, [Rich]...

Israel Keyes: They don't, they don't need to be there.

Attorney Rich Curtner: Let me talk to other counsel.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: Yeah.

Israel Keyes: If I don't get to be there, they don't get to be there.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: I'll ask them about... Yeah. I mean, I'll ask them about what, uh, what the procedures are and whether, I don't even know, I mean, maybe, you know, you have a right to kind of be teleconferenced in. I just don't know what, uh, what they do in these types of situations. Yeah. So that's, that's where Koenig is. Um, you know, I would like to explore this idea again of this global settlement, sooner rather than later, to be able to [kind of] control [Vermont].

Attorney Rich Curtner: Let me talk to him this afternoon. [I'll] come over this afternoon.

Israel Keyes: Yeah, we can talk about it. But I mean, I want to, uh, make it clear that from here on out, the Koenig case gets incorporated in whatever information is exchanged.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: [The Koenig] case? [inaudible]

Israel Keyes: Any information I give you is incor-, incorporated into that, to whatever happens [in the Koenig] case.

Officer Jeff Bell: So, so you'd like a global...

Israel Keyes: So that I, so that I have... Yeah. So that I have control over what information is released in that. And, you know, we can do it on, like, a piecemeal basis. If you, you know, if, if I feel like, uh, if I feel like things don't work out at any point, then, you know, obviously, then I'm not going to be giving any more information. I just don't... Yeah, like, starting this whole process with the Currier... I don't even know why the Currier thing has to happen right now, but whatever. Whatever they decide to do with it, I don't care about that. They can... I'm more concerned about what happens with [the Koenig case]. That's the one...

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: And so we can work on terms of, you know, [a global] settlement that includes Koenig. You know, in order to get Vermont on board, I'd have to kind of...

Israel Keyes: Well, whatever they want to do.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: No, I know. But I mean, you don't want to be in a situation where we, we solve everything else, and then [the] Curriers [are] still out there, correct?

Israel Keyes: No, I mean...

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: [Yeah,] so that's why I'm trying to keep them, you know, I'll tell them when I talk to them, [because] I'm sure I'm going to have to talk to them this week, is that, that, you know, you're considering and talking to your attorneys about the idea of a global settlement, and, you know, to, to give, to give you some time to do that.

Israel Keyes: Right. Yeah.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: [I'll] see what I can do. I mean...

Israel Keyes: I, I don't understand. Like I say, I'm sure they want to do a press release about me or whatever, but I don't understand why they're even concerned when I'm charged with it. It's not like I'm going anywhere.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: No, I know. I know. But it's, you know, it's a community thing for them, and I understand their position. And I'm, you know, [I've] been [staving] them off all this time by telling them, "Look, you know, he's cooperating on other crimes. That's, that's his intent." But again, me telling them that Israel's going to tell us this information about, [you know, that doesn't hold much weight with them].

Officer Jeff Bell: And the other thing maybe you want to do, because I know you like, you know, time frames and setting ground rules and stuff, and you haven't been happy with the way things have been moving, like, like now, do you want to set, when do you want to, when do you want to talk about this again? I know Mr. Curtner said he wants to talk to you today. When do you foresee, um, being able to do this, to expedite things, so that we're not three weeks from now talking about the same thing? Um, you know what I mean? Because you, you kind of, you're in control of that, now that everybody's here. You can have, if you have some expectations, maybe you can set those out.

Israel Keyes: Well...

Officer Jeff Bell: As far as just meeting again and discussing things.

Attorney Rich Curtner: I think, I mean, I think we need to get this, explore this global settlement thing. You know, if we can, we'll work on that. [If] we can get that together, then [that's the green light] [inaudible].

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: Yeah. No, I think that's, would be, would be certainly helpful. [Obviously there's other] things [we've been] working [on]. But, you know, in terms of the global settlement, [yeah, it's] something we want to explore. Um, well, I mean, what I can say, at least it sounds like, you know, I can advise Capital Crimes that August 6th is sort of a workable date, if [his mind doesn't change].

Attorney Rich Curtner: Well, I mean, for me, in my schedule, September 17th would be [workable].

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: But yeah, I don't know exactly.

Israel Keyes: It doesn't even have to happen. So why do we even need a date?

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: Yeah, I mean...

Israel Keyes: Why does there have to be mitigation? I don't understand.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: There's no... [It] doesn't have to be. So it's just a date, an opportunity. We don't want to deprive you of that opportunity. But if you don't want that opportunity...

Israel Keyes: [If] I got to go, yeah, let's [do it].

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: [Well, it's] clear. Just, sounds like, obviously, you don't want any mitigation presented in the Koenig case. Correct?

Israel Keyes: I'm not interested in any dates in the Koenig case. Anything added to it that's going to complicate it. Whatever you have to do to freaking get it moved along, do it.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: All right. Well, I'll talk to Capital Crimes and pass along your views on it, as well as the view of, you'd like to be heard on it. I don't know. Is that true?

Israel Keyes: Yeah. No, I, if there's, if, if there's some sort of mitigation that's set up, I definitely want to be part of it, because that means I didn't know about it.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: I don't know if there's a procedure for that. Maybe there is. I'm not sure. But, uh, I can ask about that. In the meantime, [we can] explore the global settlement. You're talking about the one initially, when I wrote that letter, Rich, on, uh, July 16th, right?

Attorney Rich Curtner: Well, I would, personally, I would make a [counterproposal] [inaudible].

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: Yeah. I understand. And then I incorporated a little more concrete deals, and the July 20, the, um, the July 16th letter on the global settlement. It's... *[About 1:57:55 to 1:59:58: a pause, with no speech in the machine readings.]*

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: I take it you [hadn't] seen that before? I think that was written before the stuff in Vermont [broke].

Israel Keyes: Well, it makes a lot more sense to do it in the Koenig case [than in the Currier case].

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: Yeah, that was written on the, yeah, I think that was, like, a Thursday or Friday, July 16th. So then, and then Monday they told me that the FBI was going to stop their [dig], and that's when I [wrote you] the other thing, on the [20th].

Israel Keyes: [inaudible]

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: [inaudible] All right. Any other questions, Israel, while we're all here?

Officer Jeff Bell: Any ideas, any time frames you'd like to see met for our next [meeting]?

Israel Keyes: I don't know. [inaudible] [This is] not working.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: In terms of what? Like, [something] we're doing? I, I'm trying to [unclear: "figure out" / "progress" / "procrastinate"] and make sure...

Attorney Rich Curtner: You taking him back now?

Officer Jeff Bell: When he's ready.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Russo: I['ll] grab [you] that [water].

Officer Jeff Bell: You ready, Israel, to return? [Go back?]

Israel Keyes: Yeah, I [guess].

Attorney Rich Curtner: [inaudible]

Israel Keyes: Right.

Officer Jeff Bell: Give us a minute here and then [we'll get you a key]. [inaudible] Take a leak or anything before [we head back]?

Israel Keyes: No, I'm good. *[2:02:10 to 2:02:35: no further speech; the recording ends.]* ---