"It's On My Terms": Israel Keyes and the FBI, April 2, 2012

Name: "It's On My Terms": Israel Keyes and the FBI, April 2, 2012
Uploaded: 2022-11-16
Duration: 26 min 53 s
Description: As divers searched an Alaskan lake for Samantha Koenig's body, an FBI agent and an Anchorage detective visited Israel Keyes in jail. He told them there were "more things" he would talk about, but only on his terms.

As divers searched an Alaskan lake for Samantha Koenig's body, an FBI agent and an Anchorage detective visited Israel Keyes in jail. He told them there were "more things" he would talk about, but only on his terms.

Subject: Israel Keyes
Recorded: about April 2, 2012
Runtime: 26:53

Content warning: Concerns the search for the body of a murdered 18-year-old woman. No graphic detail is spoken.

The Interview

On the morning of Monday, April 2, 2012, FBI Special Agent Steve Payne and an Anchorage police detective went to the Anchorage jail to see Israel Keyes. Keyes had told investigators where he had left the body of Samantha Koenig, and divers were now searching Matanuska Lake, north of Anchorage. The investigators had come to tell him what would be said publicly once her remains were found. The recording runs from Agent Payne's spoken introduction at 11:05 a.m. to his close at about 11:30.

Historical Context

Keyes, a 34-year-old building contractor from Anchorage, abducted Samantha Koenig, 18, from the coffee stand where she worked on February 1, 2012, and killed her. He was arrested in Lufkin, Texas, on March 13, 2012, after using her debit card. Returned to Alaska, he confessed to her murder and, in later interviews, to the murders of Bill and Lorraine Currier in Essex, Vermont, in June 2011, and described other killings. The FBI believes he killed at least 11 people. He took his own life in the Anchorage Correctional Complex on the night of December 1 to 2, 2012, before he could be tried.

Circumstances of the Interview

Before Keyes is brought in, the two investigators talk with jail staff and with each other. He is then read his rights, apparently by the detective, and he answers "Yes" to each. She tells him that no press release will be issued until the remains are found, and that the release will say only that Samantha had been found and that the person believed responsible was in custody. She says her chief has asked her to justify staying on the case now that the Koenig investigation is ending, and she asks Keyes whether he has more to tell her ("there are more chapters to this book"). Agent Payne joins the conversation later.

What the Interview Covers

Keyes says he expected the press to work out quickly why a team was searching a lake "in the middle of winter". He says there will be "more conversations", that he must first sort things out with his attorney, that he and his attorney are "no longer on the same page", and that he sees no option but to represent himself. He says that if anyone wants more details of the Koenig case the detective is the only one he will talk to. He hints at "more things" and "very serious issues" he will talk about, but only if things "keep moving": "I'm happy to help, but it's on my terms." He tells them he does not want the details he gives used "to sensationalize the story": "I'm not in this for the glory, I'm not trying to be on TV." He claims that "just a few words out of my mouth" will save investigators "thousands of man-hours", says he does not want to talk to "people from Quantico", and agrees that the detective should stay on the case. The recording ends with small talk about the jail's lunch and smoking.

What Makes the Recording Significant

The interview was recorded on the day Samantha Koenig's remains were recovered from Matanuska Lake, and before they were found. It shows the investigators managing what would be released to the press, and Keyes setting out, early on, the bargaining position he held for the rest of the year: further confessions in exchange for speed, privacy and a small, fixed group of interviewers. His remarks about "more things" and "future cases" came four days before he first admitted the Currier murders to investigators, on April 6, 2012.

Archival Importance

Keyes died without trial, so his recorded interviews are the main record of his own account.

Important Caveats

Keyes's claims about what he could tell investigators are his own statements. The recording is audio only; the transcript was made from a single machine reading with no captions to compare, several passages (including the reading of his rights) are unclear, and the detective's surname is not clearly heard. The uploader calls the recording a "meeting" and suggests the female detective "could soon be removed from the case": on the tape she says only that her chief has asked why she should stay on it. The detective's references to "yesterday" show there was an earlier conversation, not covered by this recording.

Special Agent Steve Payne: This is Special Agent Steve Payne with the FBI. Today is Monday, April 2nd, the time is approximately 11:05 a.m. by my watch. The following will be an interview with Israel Keyes, date of birth January 7th, 1978, at the Anchorage Jail. Also present with me is Detective Mickey [unclear: "Doll" / "Dahl"] from the Anchorage Police Department.

Investigator: How is Mr. Keyes doing this morning?

Jail Officer: It's all right.

Investigator: What time do you guys serve lunch? Are we disturbing lunch or anything like that?

Jail Officer: He'll be coming. He'll be coming in about 45 minutes.

Investigator: Okay.

[speakers Uncertain: Investigators And Jail Staff]: [unclear: "Often what, Sergeant Jones?"] ... Seven to the top of the stairs. ... Okay. Okay. Okay. Thank you, Chief. ... You're welcome, Chief. ... Thank you, Chief.

Investigator: If he brings in that third chair and then [unclear: "that figure"], he'll let you sit wherever you want. [unclear: "If you're cold-sick, just let me take the lead."]

Special Agent Steve Payne: I'm just going to write my information on this paper and put it in my card. I kind of like this recording because I've noticed that I tend to take fewer notes and stay more connected to what they're saying, because I'm a slow writer.

Detective Mickey: Yeah. Yeah. That's me too. I'm sloppy. So. Yeah. Yeah. Do you think that we need to read this [unclear: "behind the line"]?

Special Agent Steve Payne: Yes. In fact, Kevin wanted us to do that, because he definitely does it. So I have one of these. I got it on this little black card here. Do you want me to do that? Do you want me to do that? It doesn't matter to me. Either one of us can do it. You get the reports. It might be softer coming from you.

Detective Mickey: Yeah. Okay. So. Okay.

[speakers Uncertain]: Hi. / Hey, how are you doing? / Quick chat with the other one. There's some stuff that's going on. We'll be right back. / Okay.

[speakers Uncertain]: Okay. All right. All right. Correct. Okay.

Detective Mickey: [unclear: "I have a right for main time"; probably "You have the right to remain silent"]. Do you understand this right here?

Israel Keyes: Yes.

Detective Mickey: [unclear: "Can you explain again?"] Okay. Okay.

Israel Keyes: Yes.

Detective Mickey: And [unclear: "then you say, can I reach into the court walk"; probably "anything you say can be used against you in court"]. You understand that?

Israel Keyes: Yes.

Detective Mickey: You have [the] right to talk to a lawyer [unclear: "and how the president would be bothered if he questioned you"; probably "for advice before we ask you any questions, and to have a lawyer with you during questioning"]. You understand that?

Israel Keyes: Yes.

Detective Mickey: [unclear: "If you feel a point of federal order, then it would be important to represent me before any question if you wish"; probably "If you cannot afford a lawyer, one will be appointed for you before any questioning if you wish"]. You understand that?

Israel Keyes: Yes.

Detective Mickey: You cannot... You can decide at any time to exercise these rights and not answer any questions or make statements. You understand?

Israel Keyes: Yes.

Detective Mickey: Okay. The reason why we're here today is because, like I said, I think the [unclear: "court has to get out of the way"]. We have not given any press releases, we don't intend to give any press releases until we find [the] remains. I have been on the phone with everybody in my chain of command, [unclear: "especially since Payne has done the same"; probably "as has Special Agent Payne"]. And the intended press release upon finding the body is that we have found [unclear: "what remains of"] Samantha Koenig. We believe that the person who is responsible for it is in custody. That's as much as we can control. Anything [unclear: "the Chief decides to say"], I've been on the phone with the Chief this morning. It's beyond my control, but that's what he agreed to release. Is that okay with you?

Israel Keyes: Yeah, no, I'm okay. I figured that it's going to just take a matter of hours before the press puts two and two together, [and] figures out that there's only one reason why that team is [unclear: "partnering around"] [unclear: "the present way"] in the middle of winter.

Detective Mickey: We are not going to release any of the details, just like we told you we're not going to. I just felt that I should probably come here and, as a person, let [you] know what was coming. I didn't want [you] to get surprised by it. I don't know what your access to the [unclear: "unit"] or to the newspaper is, but I didn't want you to be surprised by it. I wanted you to be able to watch your back in case you need to. Upon finding the remains and being able to confirm that it's Samantha, we will also tell her father. Again, we're not going to tell [him] any of the details. I don't think anybody [needs] to know any of the details at this point. So, you know, it's going to be something along the lines that she's dead, [unclear: "the aggressive" / "we have the"] person responsible, this is her, and that's it. Is that okay with you?

Israel Keyes: Yeah, of course, yeah.

Detective Mickey: Okay. The other thing that I kind of wanted to [unclear: "fill you out on"] and see how you thought is, as you know, I'm an Anchorage police detective. My chief is wanting me to tell him why I should stay on the case. If he believes that [unclear: "what's the coming investigation"; probably "the Koenig investigation"] comes to a conclusion, then I'm done, and my part is out. I feel like we can make a deal of sorts. And like I mentioned yesterday, there are more chapters to this book, and I'm very interested in hearing about those. I need to be able to tell my chief, and I don't want any particulars, I need to be able to tell my chief that you're willing to talk to me and that you need to talk to me about other [unclear: "people"]. Is that accurate?

Israel Keyes: Well, like I said, there are going to be more conversations.

Detective Mickey: Okay.

Israel Keyes: I'm more willing to talk to you than a lot of other people who are going to [want to] talk to [me].

Detective Mickey: [unclear: "Are you done?"] Okay.

Israel Keyes: Before any of that happens, I have to get some things straightened out with my attorney.

Detective Mickey: Of course. I totally understand it.

Israel Keyes: So I don't have any idea what kind of timeline we're looking at.

Detective Mickey: I'm not looking for one, [unclear: "Sarah" / "sir"]. What I'm looking for is that if I can tell my chief that, you know, if I should be telling my chief that my part in this is done, then I need you to tell me that. If I should be telling my chief that there's more that I need to hear from you, there's more that you want to tell me, then I will certainly tell my chief that. He's asking for some accountability for my [unclear: "health"; probably "time"].

Israel Keyes: That's, yeah, I mean, I think that's pretty safe to say.

Detective Mickey: Okay. And I know, and I don't want to in any way interfere in the relationship between you and your attorney, that, you know, I understand that, you know, and to be honest, yeah, I don't even really understand it all, because I've just never really thought that it would be this complicated, to be quite frank with you. But there are things that are beyond [our] control. You know, if you have an attorney [appointed] that [unclear: "you've heard of the coming case"; probably "on the Koenig case"], I can't ask you any questions. I can't take any statements from you without your attorney present. I totally understand those rules, and [I] want to abide by them. I don't want to conflict with that in any way.

Detective Mickey: Um, and I also understand, you know, what I told you yesterday, and that is, if your attorney, [unclear: "Mr. Kirk"; possibly "Mr. Curtner"], was assigned and controls everything with [unclear: "reductions"] in the Koenig case, anything above, beyond, or aside from the Koenig case is a different matter. You still have a right to an attorney. You have a right to represent yourself as well. But I also understand that if you are in a position where you want to represent yourself at any point, the court is going to take over, and they are going to want to make sure you're competent to represent yourself. And as far as speaking with me or speaking with other members of law enforcement, that is going to slow down our ability to talk with you, because the judge will not allow us to talk with you [until] he confirms that you're competent.

Detective Mickey: So I think it's, so, I mean, it's just kind of, I can't [steer you] in any direction, I'm just telling you that because I've always been blunt with you, I've always been up front with you. And if, you know, I know that you need to come to terms with some things for yourself. And aside from that, the thing with the attorney and [unclear: "the purpose of you yourself"; probably "representing yourself"] is also going to slow things down. So just, just information.

Israel Keyes: Yeah, I don't really have [a] problem with that, because my attorney and I are no longer on the same page on all of this. So I don't have any option in my mind, at least at this point, other than to represent myself. So if that's what I have to do, then that's what I'll do.

Detective Mickey: Sure, and that's totally...

Israel Keyes: I will say that if there's at any point, if they want any more details on anything that happened with the Koenig case, then you are the only one I'll talk to. Like I said before, I'm not giving out any more details, I'm not going to go in front of all the [unclear: "working"] people again and talk about it. As far as anything other than that goes, it's just going to be a waiting game, because there are very specific things that I want out of it. And I'm not going to talk about anything until I know whether or not those things are possible or whatever.

Detective Mickey: Well, and I do think that at this point, I think it's very realistic if you want to [unclear: "stick your tongue on the wire"] and see what the temperature is. And I think that part of this is not just you coming to terms with things going public, but also making sure that we abide by our word and what we've said, and holding our feet to the fire. And I don't blame you. I would do the same in your position. So, like I said, I wanted to come down [here] today and make sure that you knew. Make sure that you knew that we're doing everything in our power, including [going] across the chain of command, to a certain extent, to abide by our promise to you.

Israel Keyes: Well, I will say there are more things that I'm going to talk to [you] or to someone about. There are very specific reasons why I'm going to do that. I'm not going to make any guarantees beyond those few things, but there are very serious issues.

Detective Mickey: Do you want me to tell my chief that it would be fair to say [unclear: "anything"]?

Israel Keyes: Anything that you think, or anyone else in control of this whole thing, can do to expedite things, whether it be me seeing a judge or [unclear: "being my attorney"; possibly "firing my attorney"], I'm kind of [unclear: "expecting to muck everybody to know"]. I think he's putting me off, trying to figure out something else. Anyway, anything that can expedite things and keep things moving. This case is not the end. And it doesn't matter, in my mind, whether I talk or not, because I know it's not the end, but I'm only willing to talk about other things unless, like I said, things keep moving. Like I said, if things keep moving. I'm not just going to do it for the heck of it.

Special Agent Steve Payne: I understand. I mean, that's what we're trying to facilitate, Israel. And like Mickey was saying, at times it's even kind of put us at odds with our bosses. I mean, it's difficult because we're kind of the lowest people on the totem pole. So we're trying to facilitate that, and I think we're cautiously optimistic we'll be able to, but we can't control everything.

Israel Keyes: And so I understand. And I mean, they just, you know, show them [unclear: "to take, show them"] the interview. I think they'll see I'm not a person that is going to be bullied, and I'm not. And at this point, I don't care. You know, there's not anything they can threaten me with or say to me or take away from me or give to me, except for what I want, that is going to make me do what they want. So...

Special Agent Steve Payne: It's your life.

Israel Keyes: Yeah, I mean, I'm happy, I say I'm happy to help, but it's on my terms. And my terms are not unreasonable. I'm willing to put it all out on the table, but I would [unclear: "like to say"; sense suggests "not like to hear"] "I need to talk to my attorney, I need to talk to the judge first," and all these other things.

Special Agent Steve Payne: That makes sense. And I think, at least from what I know, which may not be the entire picture, at our shop, I don't think anybody thinks your requests are unreasonable. They're just trying to figure out the best way to be able to honor your requests. And some of that can be very difficult when the media gets involved.

Israel Keyes: Oh, I understand. And I'm not... At this point, as far as the media is concerned, I know it's inevitable that it is going to come out in the media. And so, yeah, ideally, I would rather not have all the details... I'm willing to give you all the details. In my mind, if you have to go find out the details for yourself, then that means they're your details and you worked hard to get them, but if I give them to you, and then I feel like those details are being turned right around and given to the media to sensationalize the story or whatever... I'm not in this for the glory, I'm not trying to be on TV.

Detective Mickey: I agree with you, and nor am I, nor is Special Agent Payne. And in fact, if you have access to the Internet, you can go back and Google search everything on ADN, CNN, Nancy Grace, and [unclear: "modify"; probably "find"] a single quote that we provided to the media, either one of us. I don't like talking to the media, I have no aspirations to talk to the media. I think the best thing you can do, the best you can hope for in dealing with the media is break even with the media; you never get ahead. So, that's not me, it's not my intention, it's not my desire, and that's not why I'm here. I'm here because you seem to indicate that you want [me] to be here.

Israel Keyes: Yeah, it'll, like I said, it'll, things will go much quicker if...

Detective Mickey: You get your way.

Israel Keyes: Right. I hate to put it so bluntly, but that's, you know, I understand you've got your higher-ups, and they've got the way they want to do things, but I can tell you right now, regardless of what they think, or what they think they know about me, or what they think they can find out about me, I [unclear: "hear it"; probably "swear"] to you, just a few words out of my mouth are gonna save you and them and who knows how many other people thousands of man-hours and, you know, looking for clues, whatever the case may be. So, and like I say, if they don't believe that, they can watch the video, because I'm not [inaudible].

Detective Mickey: Is it accurate? Wouldn't it be accurate and fair to tell my chief that it is your wish that I stay on the case?

Israel Keyes: Yeah. I don't, like I say, I'm not, I do not like crowds. I don't do well in court. I don't do well in front of a lot of people. If there's just a few people that I can talk to throughout this, however far it goes, then it's gonna go faster, it's gonna go easier. I don't want to talk to, you know, people from Quantico. I don't want to talk... You know, I would, I don't care who's in the other room, I don't care who's recording, I don't care who's listening, but for the face-to-face stuff, I think...

Detective Mickey: [unclear: "One of us attorneys answer a posted question, he got a chance to answer it"; probably "I asked you a question yesterday, you didn't get a chance to answer it"], so I'll ask again because it's in a better setting. How many people do you want in the room, and who do you want those people to be?

Israel Keyes: I don't, you know, that's... There's a lot that we have to talk about. I mean, [unclear: "that's already done this"], so as far as this case is concerned, you know, they have everything they need, but for future cases we can talk about that.

Special Agent Steve Payne: We're gonna continue to do everything we can to convey, you know, to convey your request to our chain of command and anybody else that needs to be involved in this. And we're not sharing anything, [unclear: "well-known"] details, with people that don't need to be involved. And that's gonna continue. So we definitely appreciate your cooperation, we appreciate your patience. And I think as long as the lines of communication are open, that's probably the most important thing.

Israel Keyes: Yep.

Detective Mickey: Well, like I said, I didn't want to take [up] a minute of your time, I just wanted to...

Israel Keyes: I always have time [unclear: "to put"]. Thanks for coming by.

Special Agent Steve Payne: I'm not wearing a [unclear: "nail cap"; probably "watch"], but I should have to do that.

Detective Mickey: I'm not either. I'm gonna need to call, [unclear: "switch here"].

Investigator: Hey, I think we're just about done.

Jail Officer: Okay.

Investigator: Unless I need to hold the button while I speak, which I don't know about that.

[speakers Uncertain: The Investigators And Keyes, About A Notice On The Wall]: Oh, wait. / Well, I was just reading that. And I didn't... / That really doesn't have anything to do with that side. / No, it really doesn't. / Okay. / It's like, don't bring your pets in and stuff, whatever. / Okay.

Investigator: Trying to get you back in time for lunch?

Israel Keyes: No, I'll be there.

Investigator: Oh, is it [unclear: "a day"]?

Israel Keyes: Yeah, it must've been [unclear: "a day"].

Investigator: Okay, anything better today?

Israel Keyes: Yeah, hamburgers today.

Investigator: I'm not gonna say no. ... We were thinking about [unclear: "doing the bringing in as a guy"], [but] we figured they'd have a meltdown here.

Israel Keyes: Yeah, they would.

Investigator: Yeah, they really got...

Israel Keyes: I [unclear: "start smoking"; possibly "stopped smoking"] and every day that will drive me nuts, I think so.

Investigator: See, there you go. This is actually better for your health.

Israel Keyes: That's true. It's like I said, I'm probably healthier now than I've been in years, ironically.

Investigator: All right, I'll see you.

Israel Keyes: Okay, take care.

[speakers Uncertain]: Thank you. / Thanks.

Special Agent Steve Payne: Special Agent Payne, same date, time by my watch is approximately 11:30. That concludes our interview with Israel Keyes. ---