"I Want to Minimize the Impact on My Wife": Russell Williams's OPP Interview, Ottawa, 2010 (Part 1)

Name: "I Want to Minimize the Impact on My Wife": Russell Williams's OPP Interview, Ottawa, 2010 (Part 1)
Uploaded: 2021-06-07
Duration: 56 min 17 s
Description: The commander of Canada's largest air force base answers questions about his movements, his tires and his boots, until the detective lays out the evidence and Williams says he wants to minimize the impact on his wife.

The commander of Canada's largest air force base answers questions about his movements, his tires and his boots, until the detective lays out the evidence and Williams says he wants to minimize the impact on his wife.

Subject: Russell Williams
Recorded: about February 7, 2010
Runtime: 56:17

Content warning: A police interview about the murders of two women and two sexual assaults on women in their homes; the detective describes the crimes in general terms and presses the suspect about where a missing woman's body is.

The Interview

On the afternoon of Sunday, February 7, 2010, Colonel Russell Williams, commander of Canadian Forces Base Trenton, sat down in an interview room at Ottawa police headquarters with Detective Sergeant Jim Smyth of the Ontario Provincial Police. Smyth told him he was not under arrest and was free to leave, explained his right to a lawyer, and said police were investigating four cases: two sexual assaults near Tweed in September 2009, the murder of Corporal Marie-France Comeau in Brighton in November 2009, and the disappearance of Jessica Lloyd at the end of January 2010. This first part of the upload follows the interview from the moment Williams sits down to the point where, faced with the evidence, he says he wants to "minimize the impact on my wife" and Smyth asks him, "So, where is she?"

Historical Context

Williams, born in England in 1963, was a career air force officer who had taken command of CFB Trenton, Canada's largest air force base, in July 2009. Marie-France Comeau, 38, a corporal based at Trenton, was found dead in her home in Brighton, Ontario, in late November 2009. Jessica Lloyd, 27, disappeared from her home on Highway 37 outside Belleville on the night of January 28 to 29, 2010. On the Thursday before the interview, officers stopped Williams on Highway 37 near her house (he refers to this in the recording). Tire tracks in a field beside the house matched the tires of his Nissan Pathfinder, and he was asked to come in.

Circumstances

Smyth's approach in this part is slow and polite. He calls Williams "Russell", offers him coffee, and takes him through his movements, his schedule at the base, his trips to Ottawa, his tires and his knowledge of the women. He asks for fingerprints, a blood sample and footwear impressions, which Williams agrees to give. After stepping out, he returns with printouts: the footprint at the back of Jessica Lloyd's house and a copy of the sole of the boot Williams had just taken off. "These are identical," he says. He tells Williams that a search warrant is being executed at his residence, that his wife now knows, and that the evidence will soon link him to the crimes. Long silences follow.

What the Interview Covers

Williams says he knew Comeau only slightly, from one flight, and that he did not know Jessica Lloyd and had not driven off the road near her house. He explains his absence from the base on Tuesday, November 24, 2009 by a meeting in Gatineau and dinner with his wife in Ottawa. Smyth sets out the case against him: the tire tracks, a passing officer who saw an SUV in the field, the wheelbase width, the swipe-card records from the base, and the boot print. He mentions Paul Bernardo as a man who enjoyed his notoriety and tells Williams he does not see that in him. Near the end, Williams says his concerns are what his wife must be going through and the effect on the Canadian Forces. Part 1 ends moments after Smyth asks where Jessica Lloyd is. Later in the interview Williams confessed.

What Makes the Recording Significant

This is Williams's own voice at the moment his denials gave way, in a recording played in court and released to the media. The interview has been widely studied as an example of interrogation technique: rapport first, then the evidence laid out piece by piece, then an appeal to the suspect's concern for his wife. That night Williams led police to Jessica Lloyd's body. On October 18, 2010, in the Ontario Superior Court of Justice at Belleville, he pleaded guilty to all 88 charges against him, including two counts of first-degree murder, and he was sentenced to life imprisonment with no parole for 25 years. He was convicted of two murders, plus sexual assaults and dozens of break-ins.

Archival Importance

The tape was played in court during the sentencing hearing in October 2010. The other parts of the upload series continue the interview.

Important Caveats

Everything Williams says in this part about his movements and his knowledge of the women is his account at the time, given before he confessed, and much of it was untrue. The upload is by a third-party channel and is split into parts; within this part there are visible jumps where material has been cut, so it is not the complete ten-hour interview. YouTube provides no captions for this video, so the transcript rests on a single machine pass and some lines are marked unclear until a human listening check. The address of a victim's home, read out by the detective, is withheld.

Russell Williams: [The opening exchange is mostly not picked up.] I was speaking with, whatever night that was, [unclear: "for us as well" / "was Russ as well"].

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: I'm just going to move your gloves here, that's a little microphone, just to make sure it's nice and clear. As you can see here, everything in this room is videotaped and audio taped.

Russell Williams: Check.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: Have you ever been interviewed by the police in a room like this before?

Russell Williams: I have never been interviewed like this before.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: Oh, no? Okay.

Russell Williams: No.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: Let's get this set up here.

Russell Williams: I guess the closest, to interview by NIS for top secret clearance.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: Oh, yeah? All right. Well, again, Russell, I appreciate you coming in, and an investigation like this, I mean, I'm sure you can appreciate it's been big news.

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: Especially down Belleville way, and obviously our approach to cases like this is that we don't give up on somebody being alive until we get evidence that they're not. So because of that, we're treating Jessica's case as an emergent situation, obviously. So we're fast-forwarding things that we might normally take our time with, and that's why we're here on a Sunday afternoon, so again, I appreciate it. We're going to do a pretty thorough interview today, okay? The reason for that is because the last thing we want is to be calling people back again and again and again, okay? So what we're going to do is we're going to go over a number of things, and I'm going to explain what all those are to you.

Russell Williams: Okay.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: Okay. I'm a big coffee guy. I don't know if you're a coffee guy or not, but I didn't want to drink in front of you...

Russell Williams: [unclear: "for any of us"]. No, I appreciate that.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: All right, go ahead.

Russell Williams: Definitely. Are they black?

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: Yeah, they're just black with, with sugar.

Russell Williams: [inaudible]

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: Sorry, do what? Sorry?

Russell Williams: Gum.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: Or there's napkins there if you want to toss it over.

Russell Williams: I appreciate that.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: All right, and again, like I said, this interview is going to be very thorough. But again, I have a simple rule when I talk to people. It's, I'm sure you're the same way. I treat everybody with respect. I [unclear: "didn't want to ask if they do the same for me" / "ask that you do the same for me"]. So what we're going to do is we're going to start off by going through what your rights are, okay? Just like everybody else, okay? Have you ever been read your rights before? I'm sure you've seen it on TV a whole bunch of times, but it's usually the American version. So I'll go over it with you briefly, okay? Basically, in Canada, as you know, I'm sure, is we all have our rights guaranteed under the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, okay? Now, Russell, just to avoid any confusion, because people do get confused when they're talked to by the police, is that you're obviously not under arrest here today, okay? Anytime you feel you want to leave here, you feel free to do so. The door's not locked. [unclear: "We just don't walk you down" / "Theresa will walk you down"] to the lobby any time you want, okay? If there's anything that comes up in our interview today, Russell, that you feel you want to talk to a lawyer about, you just let me know, okay?

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: And the reason for that is I want to explain to you exactly what's going on here, okay? Jessica Lloyd is one of four cases that we're currently investigating, okay? And essentially, what's happened is over the past about four or five months, there have been four occurrences, like I said, that we're looking into. Two of those occurrences occurred in September of 2009, and very briefly, they were up in the Tweed area. They involved somebody entering two different women's houses in the evening hours, and committing sexual acts, okay? In November of 2009, November of 2009, a young lady by the name of Marie-France Comeau was found murdered in her home in Brighton, and we believe that there was a sexual component to that crime as well. And then most recently we have Jessica Lloyd's disappearance, okay?

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: So essentially, when you look at those kind of crimes, we're looking at a number of different potential criminal charges, right? We're looking at issues all the way from the most serious one, which is first-degree murder, kidnapping, sexual assault, break and enter with intent to commit sexual assault, forcible confinement, okay? And so what I want to make sure you understand, and just what we've been doing with everybody we've been talking to, is that clearly, when we find out who's responsible for one or all of those crimes, they could be charged with one or all of those offences, okay? Whether it's you or whether there's anybody else. And that's why it's important that we make sure that people understand what they have to do and what they don't have to do when they're talking to us, okay? So as I said before, any point today you feel the need you want to speak to a lawyer, you let me know, and we can take you to a room where you can do that in private, okay? Do you have your own lawyer?

Russell Williams: I have a realty lawyer, but... [unclear: "you don't have a lawyer" / "No, I don't have a lawyer"].

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: All right. If at any point you want to make that call and you don't know who to call, we have a phone list of lawyers that are available to give you advice free of charge, right over the phone, okay? So again, if at any point today you want to take advantage of that, you just let me know.

Russell Williams: Sure.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: Is there any reason you want to call a lawyer now?

Russell Williams: Nope.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: Okay. A couple other fairly simple and straightforward things that you probably understand, but again, we go over them to make sure everybody's clear, is that you don't have to speak to me today, okay? And the reason for that is because the law considers me to be what we refer to as a person of authority, okay? Probably similar to what you may be considered to be on the base. And because of that, I can be compelled to appear before any judge in the country, basically, to account for what takes place here today between you and I, okay? Okay, and that's the reason why everything's recorded, because there can't be any more accurate record than that, right? So...

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: And the other thing I want to make sure you understand is that, you know, you mentioned a second ago about Miss Comeau being one of your work associates. So I don't know what's happened since November on the military side of things, but what we want to make people clear on is that if you have been spoken to by any person [in] authority or any police officer about any of those cases, I don't want what they may have said to you to make you feel influenced or compelled to say anything to me today. Okay? Whatever you might have felt influenced or compelled to say to them earlier, you don't have to repeat it to me, and you don't have to say anything further, okay? But obviously what you do say, you know, for the third time, is being recorded, right? So...

Russell Williams: Understood. These first two attacks happened not that far from my place in Tweed. [unclear: "Equal the second one did" / "Well, the second one did"].

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: Yeah.

Russell Williams: We didn't even know the first one had happened. I understand that was reasonably close as well. But the second one was, was very close. Yeah, so certainly at the time [unclear: "you'll be peed at a" / "the OPP did a"], door to door.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: Yeah.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: Okay. Yeah, I'm aware of that from looking at the different cases, and essentially, Russell, in a nutshell, that's what we wanted to talk to you about. Okay? Those four cases are of concern to us, and you know, you've kind of almost hit the nail on the head about some of our issues that kind of make us want to talk to, to Russell Williams, okay? Because essentially, there was a connection between you and, and all four of those cases. Would you agree?

Russell Williams: Geographically, and then I just, I drive past. Yes. I would say there's a...

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: Yeah, and that's what, that's why, I'll be quite frank with you, that's why things kind of evolved when the officers talked to you on Thursday night. Yeah, we kind of went from there, because when I think you discussed with them the fact that you were a Colonel at the base...

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: So pretty obvious, right? So essentially, then, the connection with Miss Comeau was made. And I believe you're a door or two down from one of those two incidents in Tweed.

Russell Williams: Three doors down. Yeah, very close.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: Yeah, exactly. So those are some of the issues we want to discuss with you.

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: Okay. So just getting back to these four incidents that we're talking about, maybe you could just give me a little bit of history as to your arrival in the, in the base in Trenton. When did you start working there?

Russell Williams: Friday, on the day I was... Friday, on the day, I was at home most of the day. I had a stomach flu.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: Okay. In Ottawa or Tweed?

Russell Williams: Tweed.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: In Tweed. Okay. So we backtrack, then. So all day Friday, you're home?

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: And then what time do you leave to go to the base to sleep there, on the Friday night?

Russell Williams: Not sure. Probably just, you know, went in for just before bed. So probably [unclear: "that tweeted" / "left Tweed"] between 8 and 9 or so.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: Okay. And you get to the base and spend the evening there and get up for the 5:30?

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: Okay.

Russell Williams: That's right.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: So we backtrack from there. You, when did you arrive at your home, at the cottage? Okay, [unclear: "I wonder how I get confused" / "I don't want you confused"] between your home and Ottawa and the whole, so...

Russell Williams: I had been in Tweed all week.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: Yeah.

Russell Williams: The week prior now... Yeah, I think that's the case. I was in Tweed all week, flew Saturday, headed to Ottawa Saturday night.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: Okay. So if you didn't have the stomach flu on the Friday, what was your schedule that day?

Russell Williams: Okay. What would have been my schedule? Just a standard schedule in the office.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: Okay.

Russell Williams: [unclear: "I had a little office brief" / "I'll just brief"] in the morning, a couple of meetings. I can't remember what the specifics were going to be.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: Okay. So Thursday night you slept at Tweed, or you...?

Russell Williams: Yep.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: All right. And what did you do Thursday during the day?

Russell Williams: Thursday during the day I was at the base again. I think it was a fairly standard day, I can't recall exactly. But yeah, [unclear: "it was not fine" / "was not flying"], so I was at the base. So I would have gone in early in the morning, back in the evening again.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: Okay. Do you remember what time you left the base that night?

Russell Williams: I don't remember anything peculiar, so I would say, I don't know, probably 7 to 9, somewhere in that range.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: Okay. And that's when you left?

Russell Williams: Left the base, yeah. It's a 45-minute transit.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: 45 minutes home?

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: Okay. Now, I'm not going to walk you through November, but I'm going to take you to a date that's probably pretty fresh in your mind, the day that Marie-France [unclear: "came home" / "Comeau"]...

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: Do you remember how you found out?

Russell Williams: I do. Yeah, I was sent an email. Well, as soon as the office staff in the base learned, they told me.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: Okay.

Russell Williams: So I got an email. I can't remember if it was late at night or in the morning. It was certainly, I saw it, I want to say first thing in the morning, because I had just come back from Ottawa. I was in Ottawa for a set of meetings on one of the days. I can't remember what day of the week we're talking about, but yeah. No, I mean, obviously when [unclear: "your people gets killed" / "one of your people gets killed"], it gets your attention.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: Absolutely.

Russell Williams: [unclear: "I'm very much sure about that coming"]

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: And how did you know Marie-France Comeau?

Russell Williams: I'd only met her once. She was on a crew I was on, just after I got to the base.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: Okay.

Russell Williams: So I can't even remember. I think it was a one-day trip. I did a number of trips in Canada transporting our troops [unclear: "sort of First Lake" / "for the first leg"] out of Edmonton. You know, we tend to hopscotch them across until they get [unclear: "in fate or so" / "in the theatre"]. And, you know, I can't remember which trip it was, but we did a number of them [unclear: "at" / "out to"] Edmonton, just to pick up the troops, bring them to Trenton, and then put a fresh crew on, and, because we'd fly out and back in the same day, so pushing the edge of that, fresh crew on would continue on after a couple of hours.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: Okay. Do you know roughly when that happened?

Russell Williams: That we were on the same crew?

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: The time you met, or the one time there, yeah?

Russell Williams: It was soon after I got to the base, so I don't remember exactly, but I would say in the first couple of months, so August, September.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: Okay. Now, you got that email notifying you that something happened. Do you have any kind of a clear recollection as to how your schedule was going that week?

Russell Williams: Well, I can't remember what, again, what day that the message came in. Just a second. No, I can't remember what day of the week, but I just think it was a whole bunch of activity spun up as a result, obviously. I can't remember the day of the week. I'm just trying to think through the news reports I read. No, I'm sorry, I can't remember what day that was, but what we learned [unclear: "out of the fact" / "after the fact"] was that the MPs had learnt of her death, I think, quite a bit after her body had been discovered. So I think, if I remember correctly, the MPs learned late that evening, [unclear: "came to go in"], and obviously her body was discovered, it was probably in the news reports, but so they learnt, and then they passed it to ops, so they immediately passed it to me. The MPs work for the wing operations officer, so they go through their [unclear: "training command" / "chain of command"], and then as soon as the [unclear: "duty to launch officer" / "duty watch officer"] had that information, she advised me.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: So again, that particular week, I'm sure it's like wildfire. So that particular week, do you have any recollection, well, for instance, when you got the email, do you remember where you were?

Russell Williams: I was at home in Tweed.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: Okay.

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: Do you remember if that was a week that you were reasonably stable in Trenton, or had you flown away?

Russell Williams: No, I had been in Ottawa. I had been in Ottawa earlier in the week for some meetings over in Gatineau, for one of the sessions for the C-17 acquisition. [unclear: "If I was the project director and when I was here" / "I was a project director when I was here"] in Ottawa for that, so just some follow-up stuff for that. So I had been here at some point in that week. Again, I can't remember how the days all fell together. But I seem to remember that I got this word shortly after having come back from Ottawa. It seems to me it was the same week.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: So if we were to, you know, do a similar investigation in your background, is there anything you can think of that anybody may have misinterpreted, or anything in your history that somebody might say, Russell Williams did this?

Russell Williams: No. Be very boring.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: What's that?

Russell Williams: It'll be very boring.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: All right. Because essentially, that's what I'm looking at, is if you seem like a very intelligent person, and I think you can see how a surprise like that would certainly set some alarm bells [of] investigation, right? Okay. So the next thing we need to cover off is, well, I'll just ask you this straight out. Given the types of crime [we're] investigating, do you get much chance to watch television shows, CSI, things like that?

Russell Williams: I do watch. I prefer Law & Order, but I do watch CSI occasionally.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: Okay. So you have an idea of, obviously, the forensic capabilities, things like that, that are out there. What would you be willing to give me today to help me move past you in this investigation?

Russell Williams: What do you need?

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: Well, would you be willing to supply things like fingerprints, blood samples, things like that?

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: Footwear impressions?

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: Okay, all right. I think that's what we're going to ask you to do, all right? Now, we have a process we have to go through to do that.

Russell Williams: Okay.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: And for the blood sample, I don't take the blood sample. We have specially trained officers that are trained to do that.

Russell Williams: Okay.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: I'm going to step out and make sure they're still available.

Russell Williams: Can I assume you're going to be discreet?

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: [As] possible. Yeah.

Russell Williams: Because, you know, this would have a very significant impact on the base if they thought you thought I did this.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: Well, bottom line, Russell, that's one of the reasons we're here on a Sunday afternoon. The military [has] certainly be[en] of great assistance to us, especially in relation to Miss Comeau's investigation. So that's certainly one of the things that went into our decision to give you a call at home today and see if we could deal with this today.

Russell Williams: Okay.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: So, okay.

Russell Williams: This is tough, to undo the rumour mill once it gets started. [A pause.] I appreciate that.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: Okay.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: Now that you've had some time to, I know we've been throwing a lot of things at you here, but now you've had some time to think about things, is there anything that you're concerned about, that buccal swab matching in any of those four residences?

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: I guess, let me explain what I'm getting at here, Russell, okay? This is a significant investigation, as you can well imagine, that that DNA is going to be significant in our investigation, both quite possibly to help you, quite possibly to help us. I don't know yet, I don't know the result as yet. And I'll go back to the example I gave you, because a very similar issue, I think, and you talked about the idea of discretion here, okay? You talked about the idea that, you know, I think hopefully [you] appreciate the fact of how we approached you here. And essentially, we have no issues with that, okay? We talked recently about the whole idea of any unusual sex acts in your history. But another thing that can often happen in cases like this is that people become concerned about things like extramarital affairs, indiscretions along those lines.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: Is there any contact that you may have had with any of those four women that you may not want your wife to be aware of, anything like that, that we should know about to try and explain why, if your DNA is found, it would help us understand why it may be there?

Russell Williams: Absolutely not.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: Can you think of any reason why we would find your DNA in any of those residences? Let's focus on... I believe, let me just check the name there, make sure I've got the right address. I'm talking about the house that was just a couple of doors down from you there, in Tweed.

Russell Williams: A couple of doors down was Laurie. I don't know her last name, but, I don't know.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: Massicotte?

Russell Williams: I don't even know what her last name is, but... The woman down the road, three doors down, her name is Laurie. I don't know her last name.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: Let me just make sure we're on the same page here. My understanding is she lived at [address withheld], so she would be the second one, the second incident on your road there, a couple of doors down. Ever been in her house?

Russell Williams: Nope. We met her once, I think the first summer we were there, [unclear: "I was 104" / "so in '04"].

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: Okay. And that's what I'm getting at. Again, this is a credibility issue right now, because I don't want to come and see you two weeks from now and say, you know, [unclear: "the rest of our CSI people" / "Russ, our CSI people were"] in that house. Are you familiar with how DNA works?

Russell Williams: I think broadly, yes.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: One of the challenges we have in 2010 with DNA, [it] has become so precise that, I guess the best way to explain it is, I can think back 15 years ago when I started in violent crime investigation, for us to get a DNA match, the sample we had to find was, you know, probably would have filled half of one of these cups, you know, because they destroy so much of the sample in the testing. Essentially, DNA has become more and more precise, to the point where, when you and I walked in this room earlier today, we could have sat down, talked for 30 seconds, walked out. CSI officer could have come in three, four days from now, did some swabs here, and he would have found your DNA and my DNA, and probably a lot of other people's DNA. A little bit gross to think about, but essentially, you know, as we talk, you know, a little bit [of] aspirate comes out of our mouth that, that contains our DNA, or bloods, or our skin cells contain our DNA. And that's what I'm getting at. If you were ever in Laurie's residence, quite possibly, quite innocently, your DNA could be in that residence. Has there ever been a time you've been in there?

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: Okay. Okay. What about the other lady down the road, [inaudible]?

Russell Williams: I hadn't even heard that name. So, no, I don't, I don't actually know who that was.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: Okay. Have you ever visited Marie-France Comeau at her residence?

Russell Williams: No.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: Okay. All right. So you're quite positive there'd be no reason why your DNA would be in those three locations? Okay. Did you know Jessica Lloyd, even in passing, for any reason?

Russell Williams: No, I didn't hear her name until it was on the news.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: The reason I'm asking that is because I know you were asked that question on Thursday night, and sometimes what we find, and again, this is one of those situations that can sometimes cause us to get [unclear: "an unlikely investigation as" / "into lengthy investigation of"] somebody that maybe doesn't deserve it. But what can happen sometimes is they, you know, somebody gets stopped by the police like you did, and they get asked that question, and people, when they're stopped by the police, they can be nervous, okay? So they blurt out an answer, and then they start driving away, and they go, why'd I do that? Because the problem is, is that once they get asked again, then they feel compelled to maintain that answer, for fear that if they change their answer, somebody could find it. You understand what I'm saying?

Russell Williams: I do.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: Okay. So I want to make sure that's not happening here. I don't care what you said to the officers on Thursday night, and last week. If there's any communication or contact between you and Jessica Lloyd... You've seen her picture, right, around town?

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: Okay. Ever seen her before?

Russell Williams: [unclear: "I don't know" / "I don't, no"]. I would say I have not.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: Okay. All right. And you mentioned something about doing some renovations at your property in Tweed there. I think you said something earlier about tearing up carpet, correct me if I'm wrong, but...

Russell Williams: Okay.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: When did all that happen?

Russell Williams: In 2004 or 2005.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: Okay. Any recent renovations?

Russell Williams: No.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: Okay. All right. I just want to make sure I'm covering all the bases here. What kind of tires do you have on your Pathfinder?

Russell Williams: I think they're Toyo.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: Okay. Do you have the brand name, or, I'm sorry, the make?

Russell Williams: I think that is a... I don't know. Sorry, the make is Toyo.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: Yeah.

Russell Williams: I don't know the model.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: Okay. I should read this off to you and see if it rings a bell. Ever heard of, does Toyo Open Country HTS...?

Russell Williams: That sounds right.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: Make any sense?

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: Okay. When did you have those tires put on your Pathfinder?

Russell Williams: Well, it's the second version we've had of them, so I think it might have been this past fall. They replaced other ones we had on the same...

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: Okay.

Russell Williams: Well, Toyo. I can't say that they were the same, exactly the same model, but our dealership here [unclear: "is very popular for the" / "in Ottawa says they're very popular for the"] Pathfinders.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: I think you were talking about the whole idea of the MPs helping us with our investigation. You have the same system as we do at our headquarters, with the swipe cards. One of the things one of our investigators [did] is they made a call while I was talking to you there, because we were trying to work through that week of the 23rd of November, 23rd being the Monday, 24th being the Tuesday. What they've told us is that, and I want to make sure I get this right, is that on the 23rd your swipe card was being used at the base. On Tuesday the 24th there was no use of your swipe card. And then on the following days, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, there was what appeared to be average activity of your swipe card on the base. Does that make sense to you?

Russell Williams: It does. That says that I was in Ottawa on the Tuesday.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: Okay. Do you remember where in Ottawa you were?

Russell Williams: Yeah, I was in Gatineau with, as I said, meeting about the C-17.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: Okay. Now, again, I want to be fair to you here, we're going back two months. Are you sure that would have been the day you were in Ottawa?

Russell Williams: Well, only because I wasn't at the base.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: Okay.

Russell Williams: So I can't remember, honestly, that that's the day I had the meeting in Ottawa, but if I wasn't at the base, it was because I was here.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: Okay. Now, if that is the day you had a meeting in Ottawa, do you remember being at the base on the Monday, the 23rd, and swiping your card in and out? Do you remember what you would have done that evening to get to Ottawa for that meeting? Like, would it be...?

Russell Williams: I drove to Ottawa in the morning of the day of my meeting, so if it was the Tuesday, then I would have left Tweed. It was a very foggy morning, that morning, and I drove in that morning. So I would not have been at the base the day I was in Ottawa, because the meeting started at 8:30 or something.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: Okay. So you leave the base, you would have went home to your residence in Tweed, and then you left Tweed in the morning and drove up to your meeting in Ottawa. Do you leave, the meeting in Ottawa, is it a daytime meeting, evening meeting, or do you remember?

Russell Williams: Yeah, it was a daytime meeting, finished, I don't know, mid-afternoon or so. We had lunch and then finished, and I think my wife and I had dinner, because she was here for work, and then I headed back home.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: Okay. Well, these are the kind of things I'm trying to draw out here. That's helpful to us. Do you remember where you had dinner?

Russell Williams: Well, I don't remember exactly the restaurant, but it was in Westboro, because that's where our house was being built at the time. So we had dinner, you know, in a restaurant that we would expect to be able to frequent once that was finished.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: Okay. Remember how you paid?

Russell Williams: One of us would have paid by MasterCard, I think.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: Okay. Are you sure about that?

Russell Williams: Pretty sure. That's normally how we pay for meals. I can't remember if it was me or my wife that paid, but one of us.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: Okay. And do you remember which restaurant it was again?

Russell Williams: No.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: Okay. You see what I'm getting at, right? I mean, that can be very helpful for us, because we can track that issue, right? We can put somebody paying for a meal at a location.

Russell Williams: Oh, I was meeting with 15 people or so that day, so...

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: Okay. What time did the meeting end?

Russell Williams: I would say between 3 and 4.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: Okay. And are you sure that that's the same day you went out with your wife?

Russell Williams: Well, I think so, yeah, because she was here, and I think that was the day we went to this restaurant in Westboro.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: Okay. You finished dinner, and do you remember what you did that evening?

Russell Williams: I would have driven back to Tweed.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: Okay. And you would have, now again, I know we're talking two months ago here, but do you remember specifically having dinner and then driving back to Tweed, or do you remember... are you just guessing here?

Russell Williams: No, I'm not really guessing. I mean, I believe that this night at this restaurant was following the meetings in Ottawa, and I kissed my wife goodbye and headed back to Tweed, to go to work the next day.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: Okay. All right. The tires that you have on your truck, right, the reason I asked you about that is there, is there any time... I mean, you recall where you were stopped by the officers there?

Russell Williams: Yes.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: Did they explain to you what the significance was?

Russell Williams: That was her house.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: Okay. So you remember that location?

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: Do you remember what the crossroad was, or...?

Russell Williams: I don't think there was a crossroad. It's sort of just on the [unclear: "7th end" / "south end"] of 37.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: Okay. When you get stopped at that location, has there been a time in the recent one or two weeks that your vehicle has left that road for any reason whatsoever? Have you driven into a field with your vehicle at all, for any reason you can think of?

Russell Williams: No.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: Okay. Because I want you to rack your brain here, this is important. So is there anything you can remember doing that, you know, [unclear: "what it caused you" / "would cause you"] to drive off the road at that section of roadway?

Russell Williams: No, that's my early, that's the early part of the highway, and [I] just head north. It's about 30 minutes from there to, probably 20 from there to my house.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: Okay. Would it surprise you to know that when the CSI officers were looking around her property, that they identified a set of tire tracks to the north of her property? Looks as if the vehicle left the road and drove along the north tree line of Jessica Lloyd's property, okay? They took the, examined those tire tracks, and they have contacts in the tire business, obviously. Tire tracks are a major source of evidence for us.

Russell Williams: Sure.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: Shortly after this investigation started, they identified those tires as the same tires on your Pathfinder.

Russell Williams: Really?

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: Yeah.

Russell Williams: Okay.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: Okay. One of the other, one of the other things that they do to try and identify the type of vehicle that [may] have left those tires, well, they do two things. They talk to witnesses, okay? There was a female police officer that actually drove by that location that evening and recalls seeing an SUV-type vehicle in the field to the north of Jessica Lloyd's house, consistent with a Pathfinder, okay? It may be consistent with other things, [unclear: "because there's a firefighter and the" / "but consistent with a Pathfinder"]. What they also do to try to identify the type of the vehicle is they look at what they call the wheelbase width, okay? Because different vehicles, different makes, models have wheelbase width, so they can take those two sets of tire tracks, measure the distance between them, okay, and determine what the, the width is.

Russell Williams: Sure.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: And then they can enter that into a vehicle database and it will spit out the types of vehicles. Okay. Your Pathfinder's wheelbase width is very, very close to the width of the, of the tires that were left in that field, okay? Do you have any recollection at all being off that road?

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: Okay, Russell. Is there anything you can think of... Let's go talk about Marie-France Comeau for a minute, okay? Is there any reason at all you can think of that, during our investigation, obviously we're searching computers, things like BlackBerrys, right, electronic devices, looking through houses for things that are in handwriting, written notes, diaries, things like that. Now, I'm not at liberty to tell you what the content was, but is there any reason at all you can think of why Marie-France Comeau would have specifically referenced you in some of her writings?

Russell Williams: Not at all.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: No?

Russell Williams: No, absolutely not.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: Okay. Is there anything that she ever said to you that led you to believe that there might be something more than a passing interest with her towards you?

Russell Williams: [unclear: "I don't know" / "Not at all"]. No, we spent, you know, one flight together, talking. I'd go back occasionally and talk. No, if that's the case, that's very surprising.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: Okay. All right. You have any questions for me right now?

Russell Williams: No.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: Okay. I'm just going to step out and see how things are going. Okay? I mean, it is a Sunday, but there's probably 60, 70 people working on this file, so there's a lot of things happening.

Russell Williams: Sure.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: So let me go out and see what's happening, and then I'll come back in and we'll hopefully continue. Okay.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: I told you when I came in here that I'm going to treat you with respect, and I've asked you to do the same for me. We talked about the whole idea of how we've approached you here, okay? The trying to be as discreet as possible, okay? But the problem is, Russell, is every time I walk out of this room, there's another issue that comes up, okay? And it's not issues that point away from you. It's issues that point at you, okay? And I want you to see what I mean. All right. This is the footwear impression of the person who approached the rear of Jessica Lloyd's house on the evening of the 28th and 29th of January, okay?

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: All right, now, I want you to keep in mind that this is slightly smaller, okay, in scale, okay?

Russell Williams: Okay.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: All right, that's not to scale. The footwear is actually bigger. If you look here on the ruler, you'll see that one inch is just slightly smaller than an actual inch, okay? But this is the way it prints off on the computer. I'm gonna move this over so you can see what I mean, all right? Essentially, when you're dealing with footwear impressions, we have a gentleman on the OPP who's basically world-renowned. His name is John Norman. And essentially, with footwear impressions, you're in a situation where you're pretty much in the area of fingerprints, okay? And essentially, what we're talking about here is, especially when you start adding in other pieces of information that support an investigative position, okay?

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: This is a photocopy of the boot that you took off your foot just a little while ago, okay? Now, I'm not an expert in footwear impressions, so I rely on the experts. Footwear impressions are very much like fingerprint comparisons, okay? You take a look at this print, and again, this is one print. This person walked through, there's several different prints to compare, so we're gonna get features off of one print to compare, or features off of another print to compare.

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: These are identical, okay? Your vehicle drove up the side of Jessica Lloyd's house. Your boots walked to the back of Jessica Lloyd's house on the evening of the 28th and 29th of January, okay? You want discretion, we need to have some honesty. Okay? Because this is getting out of control really fast, Russell. Okay? Really, really fast.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: This is getting beyond my control. All right? I came in here a few hours ago, and I called you the way I called you today because I wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt. But you and I both know you were at Jessica Lloyd's house, and I need to know why.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: Well, you need to explain it, because this is the other problem we're having, Russell. Okay. Again, these decisions are made by me. Right now, there's [unclear: "a sort of" / "a warrant"] being executed at your residence. So your wife now knows what's going on. [unclear: the machine reading is "Your residence is in your vehicle's deceased"; the sense appears to be a search at his other residence and "your vehicle's been seized"]. Okay. You and I both know they're going to find evidence that links you to these situations. You and I both know that the unknown offender [unclear: "may or may not agree" / "male DNA"] on Marie-France Comeau's body, it's going to be matched to you, quite possibly before the evening's over. Okay. This is a major investigation. The Centre of Forensic Sciences is on call 24 hours a day, helping us with this.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: Your opportunity to take some control here, and to have some explanation that anybody is going to believe, is quickly expiring. [A pause.] We're applying, the investigators [are] now applying for a warrant to search your office. These aren't decisions that we can say yes or no to. This is [the] practical steps in an investigation like this. [A pause.] And Russell. [A pause.] Russell. [A pause.]

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: Listen to me for a second, okay? When that evidence comes in, when that DNA match, when that phone rings and somebody knocks on this door, your credibility is gone. Because this is how credibility works. And I know you're an intelligent person, and you probably don't need to hear this explanation, but I also know your mind is racing right now, because I've sat across [from] a lot of people in your position over the years. The bottom line is that as soon as we get that piece of evidence that solidifies it, DNA. Okay. As soon as the expert in footwear impressions, the expert in tire impressions calls and says, yes, I've examined those and they're a match, it's all over. Because as soon as that happens, where's your credibility? Where's your believability? You're just another...

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: Again, don't take this wrong, but you can see, if you step outside this room in your mind and imagine how people are going to view you, if the truth comes out after the clear evidence is presented to you, when you finally go, okay, I'm screwed now. What are we going to do? [A pause.] Russell, you know there's only one option. What other option is there?

Russell Williams: What's the option?

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: Well, I don't think you want the cold-blooded psychopath option. I might be wrong. Okay? Because don't get me wrong, I've met guys who actually kind of enjoyed the notoriety, got off on it, got off on having that label, Bernardo being one of them. I don't see that in you. If I saw that in you, I wouldn't be back in here talking to you, quite frankly. But maybe I'm wrong, maybe you got me fooled, I don't know. This is over. And you can have a bad ending, where Jessica's parents continue to wonder where her daughter's lying.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: I don't know. I mean, obviously, there's a huge search still underway, and it'll continue. It'll continue until her body's found. That might even happen tonight, for all I know. Once that happens, then I don't know what other cards you would have to play. [A pause.] What are we going to do?

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: [unclear: "I'm going to do a rest" (machine reading)]

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: What are we going to do?

Russell Williams: [unclear: "Help me rest, please" / "Call me Russ, please"].

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: Okay. What am I going to do, Russ?

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: Is Jessica somewhere we can find her easily? [A pause of about 25 seconds.] Is this something where I can make a call and tell somebody to go to a location and they're going to find her, or is this something where we have to go and take a walk? Which direction are we heading in here?

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: Russ, maybe this would help. Can you tell me what the issue is you're struggling with?

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: What's the issue you're struggling with?

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: What's the issue?

Russell Williams: It's hard to believe this is [unclear: "not part of it" / "happening"].

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: Why is that?

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: Why is it hard to believe?

Russell Williams: It's hard to believe.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: [unclear: "What decision" / "Whose decision"] was it, and I'm going to find out the answer to this anyway, but [unclear: "what" / "whose"] decision was it to issue the directive to the base personnel that nobody had to speak to the police and to seek legal counsel before they were questioned?

Russell Williams: I don't think that was [inaudible].

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: My understanding, that direction came from somebody that reports to you. What do you think they're gonna say? Russ...

Russell Williams: No...

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: What do you think they're gonna say? All right, and let's, let's step back for a second here, okay? I really don't think it benefits you or makes you look any better to start debating [the] little issues.

Russell Williams: But that is news to me.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: Okay.

Russell Williams: I have a legal officer that reports to me...

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: Yeah.

Russell Williams: ...who may have given that direction, but that's [the] first time I've heard, if that's true. That's [the] first time I've heard that.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: All right, and that may be the case, but how does it look? [A pause.] All right. We're not even dealing with something that's really even evidence, because it's not needed. I mean, we have DNA and all this other stuff. That's not even...

Russell Williams: What was it?

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: I don't recall, but it was something along the lines of telling the people on the base that they didn't, they weren't required legally to speak with police, and they should seek legal counsel before they chose to speak.

Russell Williams: But, well, if that was, if that was actually said, it would not have been to the base at large. It, it may have been to the individual, the boyfriend who is the suspect.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: Okay. My understanding, it went out to all personnel.

Russell Williams: No.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: Maybe, maybe, no, only under your command. I don't know. Okay, okay. That's fine. That's fine. Now, let's get back to the issue.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: What's that?

Russell Williams: So, you talk about perception. My only two immediate concerns from a perception perspective are what my wife must be going through right now...

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: Yeah.

Russell Williams: ...and the impact this is going to have on the Canadian Forces.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: Where do we go? [A pause.] [unclear: "Or" / "Russ,"] is there anything you want from me? Is there anything you want me to explain? Is there something missing that you're struggling with that I can shed some light on for you?

Russell Williams: I'm struggling with how upset my [unclear: "life" / "wife"] is right now.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: All right. What are you looking for?

Russell Williams: I'm concerned that they're tearing apart my wife's brand new house.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: So am I. [A pause.] But if nobody tells them what's there and what's not, they don't have any choice. Computers will be brought to Microsoft in California. They'll be picked apart. You can't erase things from computers. It doesn't happen. I'm sure you've seen that. I'm sure that's pretty common knowledge these days. It just doesn't happen. They sell programs that try and help people clean their computers of stuff, and our guys are pulling that stuff out all the time. The FBI is pulling that stuff out all the time. [A pause.] This investigation will end up costing no less than $10 million. Easy. And they will say no to nothing. Any requests this major case manager makes on this case, they've already been told: it's approved, don't even bother asking.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: So, what am I doing, Russ? [A pause.] I put my best foot forward here for you, [unclear: "but" / "bud"]. I really have. I don't know what else to do to make you understand the impact of what's happening here. [A pause.] [unclear: "Did we talk?" / "Do we talk?"]

Russell Williams: I want to, um... minimize the impact on my wife.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: So do I.

Russell Williams: So, how do we do that?

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: Well, [unclear: "we start" / "you start"] by telling the truth.

Russell Williams: Okay.

Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth: So, where is she?

Russell Williams: [unclear: "Get them out" (machine reading) / "Got a map?"]