"Either I'm a Liar or I'm Not a Liar": Paul Bernardo's Complete 2007 Police Interview

Name: "Either I'm a Liar or I'm Not a Liar": Paul Bernardo's Complete 2007 Police Interview
Uploaded: 2014-02-18
Duration: 31 min 58 s
Description: The complete 31-minute Toronto police interview at Kingston Penitentiary: Paul Bernardo argues about his credibility and Karla Homolka, denies any part in Elizabeth Bain's disappearance, and is taken through a June 1990 timeline.

The complete 31-minute Toronto police interview at Kingston Penitentiary: Paul Bernardo argues about his credibility and Karla Homolka, denies any part in Elizabeth Bain's disappearance, and is taken through a June 1990 timeline.

Subject: Paul Kenneth Bernardo
Recorded: June 7, 2007
Runtime: 31:58

Content warning: Concerns a man convicted of the rape and murder of two teenage girls; refers to sexual assaults and to a young woman's disappearance, in general terms, with no graphic detail.

The Interview

On the afternoon of June 7, 2007, Detective Brad Hoover of the Toronto Police Service's Sex Crimes Unit and Constable Darlene Coulis interviewed Paul Bernardo in a boardroom at Kingston Penitentiary, with his lawyer, Anthony Bryant, present. Bernardo identified himself on tape as "Paul Jason Teale, a.k.a. Paul Bernardo". Hoover told him he was not under caution, that his answers were voluntary and that he was being interviewed as a potential witness. The main subject was Elizabeth Bain, a University of Toronto student who disappeared in June 1990. This video is the complete recording as released, about 30 minutes from Hoover's introduction at 2:05 p.m. to his closing time check at 2:35 p.m.

Historical Context

Elizabeth Bain disappeared from the University of Toronto's Scarborough campus on June 19, 1990. Her car was found three days later with a large bloodstain; her body has never been found. Her boyfriend, Robert Baltovich, was convicted of her murder in 1992. On his appeal his lawyers named Bernardo, who had been the "Scarborough Rapist" in the same area from 1987 to 1990, as an alternative suspect, and the conviction was set aside in December 2004. Bernardo had been convicted in 1995 of the first-degree murders of Leslie Mahaffy and Kristen French and declared a dangerous offender.

Circumstances of the Interview

In a letter dated October 2005, which reached police that November, Bernardo had admitted further sexual assaults; Hoover said the letter came to him through the Attorney General's office, and the two had met about it in April 2006. At the start of this interview Hoover told him that the investigation of those admissions was concluded and that two offences had been identified as his. The interview took place as Baltovich's retrial approached; Hoover said he had been given questions to ask about "the Robert Baltovich matter". The video was intended as an exhibit at the retrial, but in April 2008 the Crown called no evidence and Baltovich was acquitted. On June 10, 2008, Justice David McCombs released the video to all media without restriction, including online, over the Crown's objections.

What the Interview Covers

For the first 15 minutes Bernardo argues about his credibility. He complains that Peel Regional Police had publicly said he lied about crimes he admitted, says he is painted as a "crazy psychopathic liar", and asks repeatedly why police never had Karla Homolka take a polygraph; he says he offered to take one "on anything and everything". The officers say they cannot answer for another police force. Asked directly, "Did you kill Elizabeth Bain on June the 19th, 1990?", he calls it "a loaded question" and, after more argument, says "the answer to that is no". He says he had nothing to do with her disappearance, does not know whether he ever met her, and recalls seeing something about the case in newspapers in jail. Hoover then takes him through a police timeline of June 1990: trips to the United States, receipts for purchases, a cellphone bought the day after Bain vanished, and his bankruptcy, which Bernardo links to the release of the Scarborough rapist composite. Hoover plays an audio clip in which Homolka tells an investigator that Bernardo had said Bain's boyfriend "did it". Bernardo calls her "incorrect", says he did not follow the case, and says he knows Baltovich only from television.

What Makes the Recording Significant

This is the police's own questioning of Bernardo about the Bain case, released in full by an Ontario court in a notable 2008 ruling that accepted the internet as a legitimate way to distribute news and refused to stop news outlets from posting the whole interview online. Bernardo was never charged in connection with Bain's disappearance, which remains unsolved. The full recording shows the context of his denial, including the long argument about credibility that precedes it and the timeline questions that follow.

Archival Importance

The case involved a wrongful conviction, years of appeals and a public alternative-suspect theory. The complete tape preserves both sides of the exchange: what police put to Bernardo, including the June 1990 timeline and Homolka's statement, and how he answered.

Important Caveats

Bernardo's statements are his own. He was never charged in the Bain case, and the page must not suggest he was responsible. His remarks about Karla Homolka, the Peel Regional Police and the Attorney General are his claims. Several of his phrases are not clearly heard and are marked in the transcript; those should not be quoted until the listening check.

Detective Brad Hoover: Okay, tape's on.

Detective Brad Hoover: My name is Detective Brad Hoover, my badge number is 6188, and I'm with Toronto Police Service Sex Crimes Unit. The time now is 2:05 p.m. We're presently at the Kingston Penitentiary in Kingston, Ontario, in a boardroom, [unclear: "as thick as" / "adjacent to"] the main building, you'd call it. Present in the room here, if I could just have each of you identify yourself for the purposes of the videotape that's being made. Seated to my left, off camera and now sitting at the table, is your counsel. Just identify yourself.

Anthony Bryant: Yes, certainly. It's Anthony Bryant.

Detective Brad Hoover: And straight across the table from me, if you'd identify yourself.

Constable Darlene Coulis: Constable Darlene Coulis, C-O-U-L-I-S, badge number 6483, from Toronto Police Service.

Detective Brad Hoover: And seated to my right, if you could just identify yourself.

Paul Bernardo: Paul Jason Teale, a.k.a. Paul Bernardo.

Detective Brad Hoover: And again, my name is Brad Hoover, and today is June the 7th, 2007. Mr. Teale, the reason that we're here today is to speak to you in regards to a couple of incidents, a couple of matters. First of all, before we start, I just want you to make sure that you're aware that what we say is being videotaped here.

Paul Bernardo: Yeah, that works.

Detective Brad Hoover: I'm just going to start this audio tape. I forgot to do that.

Detective Brad Hoover: Now, I just started this audio tape here. We started the interview at 2:05 p.m. My name is Detective Brad Hoover. Paul, you're not presently being given a caution or anything, and I want you to understand that what you're saying to us today is voluntary. That means that if you don't want to talk to us, you don't have to. Your counsel is present, and if you need to speak to him, you certainly can. But I just want to make sure that you understand that what you're saying here is voluntary, and that we're interviewing you as a potential witness. Do you understand that?

Paul Bernardo: Yeah.

Detective Brad Hoover: Just a little bit of background about the first time we met, back last year in April of 2006. That was in regards to a letter that you had sent through the Attorney General's office, that filtered down to my office, in regards to some admissions that you made about some sexual assaults that you committed. I'm here to tell you that I have concluded that investigation, and that there have been two offences that I have been able to identify, and with the information that you provided to me at that time, was able to conclude those matters as having been committed by yourself. So for that, I thank you for that information.

Paul Bernardo: Sorry, you've identified the offence?

Detective Brad Hoover: Identified the offence. No, no, no, no. I have identified the offence that you were talking about, and based on that information I was able to conclude those cases. You actually provided enough information that I was satisfied [unclear: "you were the person that committed those offences" / "you were impersonating those offences"].

Paul Bernardo: Okay.

Detective Brad Hoover: That make sense?

Paul Bernardo: That makes sense. What about ones that you thought that I came forward with, that maybe you thought that I didn't do? Were there any of those?

Detective Brad Hoover: There was none that I thought you didn't do. There were some that I didn't have enough information to either identify the offence, because you were unable to provide enough details at that time, or they may not have ever been reported to the police. As you said when we spoke, some of them were, [unclear: "I won't call them" / "we'll call them"] minor type offences, but...

Paul Bernardo: No, I understand.

Detective Brad Hoover: ...offences that may not have been reported to the police.

Paul Bernardo: Okay. Um, well, I turned on the TV. I waited for Peel Regional to come by. September rolls around, they make a public announcement, it's written on my file here, that I lied to police and I did not commit the crimes that I said I committed, the offences in Peel Region. Okay, big problem.

Detective Brad Hoover: I have spoken to Peel Region, and they have told me that they don't have enough information at this point to identify anything that you, um... The letter that was sent to the police, or through to the police, wasn't specific enough to identify any offences. Now, that's something that we can talk about, sort of following this interview, and if you want to get into that, we can talk about that.

Paul Bernardo: Look, I've been sitting on this for years in this place. It's written on my file, and it makes me seem like, oh, he's just this crazy... You guys love doing that. I'm just this crazy psychopathic liar. Why was that statement issued? Why didn't they come in and talk to me if they didn't have enough information? We were waiting. Now that tape, you can play that tape back: I asked you guys, is Peel Regional gonna come in? I sat here month after month after month. No one came. I turned on the TV in September. Peel Regional, you know, declared that Paul Bernardo was, you know, this crazy liar to police. What, what, what's the fundamental problem here?

Detective Brad Hoover: Well...

Paul Bernardo: I know, I mean, justice, the Canadian way, and no one comes in, and now you guys are saying that you didn't have enough information?

Detective Brad Hoover: Well, I can't answer for them specifically as to what they did or didn't do. I can tell you that because they're a separate police department, I don't have any control over what investigation that they did do. I can tell you that I have spoken with the investigator in Peel Region, and they have told me that at this point they don't have enough information to move forward. They haven't been able to identify any offence that was specifically talked about.

Paul Bernardo: That statement you're giving me is much different than the public statement they said, which said I was a liar.

Detective Brad Hoover: I don't, I don't...

Paul Bernardo: [unclear: "The same game" / "Right day"], they didn't come in. If they don't have enough information, why don't you come in, get the information? I mean, either I'm lying or I'm not lying, and this goes to the crux of this argument. Either I'm a liar to you, that I'm lying to you right now about everything, like I did to Peel Regional according to their story, or I'm not. And, you know, I just, I just, I'm not gonna sit here and, you know, come voluntarily and have people come... You guys banned me from the press, you roll your stories over, and you constantly say that I'm a liar, I'm a liar. I made mistakes 17 years ago, so, okay, fine, I did. But now we're talking about today, and you're not gonna roll forward that I'm some psychopathic liar sitting in jail claiming other people's responsibilities for other crimes. This is a total cross-examination point. You want to start this thing? James Lockyer is gonna grab a hold of it and say, well, he lied about other crimes, you know, he's a crazy liar. Why didn't you guys resolve this?

Detective Brad Hoover: And again, I can't answer for what Peel Region did or didn't do. Jurisdictionally, we're kind of bound...

Paul Bernardo: Well, still, there's the good guys and the bad guys, you know what I mean? You're on the same team.

Constable Darlene Coulis: Yes, we are, but as far as us investigating matters that take place outside of the actual Toronto proper, that's why Peel Regional has their police service. And, like Detective Hoover said, we can't answer as to what they did with their investigations, or the many issues that they were looking at that transpired out in their area, and we really can't speak to that. Now, whether that's something you wish to have your counsel deal with, or something else, but unfortunately there isn't a lot that Detective Hoover and I can do in regards to those things.

Paul Bernardo: Well, [unclear: "you've been watching this thing" / "that's what I believe, you're watching this thing"], and they should subpoena these guys from Peel Regional. They can bring out all the facts to show just where I lied, if I'm a liar. That's what I say to do, because either I'm a liar or I'm not a liar, and I'm not a liar, but you guys are trying to paint me as one. The public, the court of the public, they turn on the TV in September of last year, and I was this crazy liar. That's what the TV reported, and not only did they report it there, they wrote it on my file. [unclear: "I've got it right in my cell" / "I've got to break myself"]: "Paul Bernardo, Peel Regional said Paul Bernardo lied to police about crimes he didn't commit and said he did."

Detective Brad Hoover: Okay.

Paul Bernardo: I mean, this is, this, that's just awful. I mean, come on, enough manipulation, you know what I mean? Either you tell the truth or don't. Otherwise the whole purpose of any interview is just stupid, because if I'm this crazy liar, I'll be sitting here lying to you about everything, right? Right? I mean, why wouldn't I, [unclear: "am just" / "have just"] this crazy liar?

Detective Brad Hoover: And then, again, I don't, I don't know exactly what was said by Peel Region. I'm not here to answer to what they said. They're...

Paul Bernardo: You know, it's one thing, you know. I'm a human being, and to say that I'm a dangerous offender and [unclear: "raper and killer" / "rape and kill"] and all this stuff is fine. I mean, free publicity, you know, [unclear: "get that real tough-on-crime, get that bad guy" / "you'll get that, you'll talk about, I'd get that back at"]. But when you go to a certain point of lying, it just, I mean, it affects me totally, you know. I made mistakes, I made mistakes a long time ago, but don't say that today about this, because then we're [unclear: "liable" / "lying"] and we got a big problem, because I'm looking at you and you're the bad guys, because I'm not doing anything wrong. I'm out telling the truth, and you guys are walking around issuing statements that I lie here, I lie there. No?

Constable Darlene Coulis: Well, I mean, those aren't statements that were issued by Detective Hoover or myself, or...

Paul Bernardo: I know, but it's the same. It's the Attorney General who sent you guys down here. He's fighting the case, he's taking this [unclear: "ball pitch back" / "ball to the back"], right? So it's really all, it's the same organization. It's the Attorney General. I see him on TV talking about it.

Constable Darlene Coulis: But this is a separate matter from what those issues were.

Paul Bernardo: It's still the Attorney General's office.

Constable Darlene Coulis: Yeah, it may very well be, but, so, we can't speak to anything that Peel Regional does, or statements that they release out to the media, because they have...

Paul Bernardo: You know, it's the same thing. If I'm a liar, take the facts that they have, they come down and talk to me, any cross-examine, any defence lawyer can call them up and show me where I'm lying, because you're not gonna find it. Maybe there's a minor mistake here and there. I think I had one thing about some tree, driveway, where trees were, you know, memory gets a little old over time. But to say that is just ridiculous. Just like you guys didn't go... Uh, you guys polygraph Karla yet? Ask her about it? Nobody from the Attorney General's office go down there? Nobody cared? Again...

Detective Brad Hoover: I know.

Paul Bernardo: But it's the same problem, because you're making me out to be a huge liar, and this is a problem.

Detective Brad Hoover: Well, I don't have any doubt as to what you told us before. The facts that I could verify, I believe were true, and from what you've told me, you haven't told me any lies yet, so I have no personal reason to believe that you're lying.

Paul Bernardo: Exactly.

Detective Brad Hoover: So, again...

Paul Bernardo: But this is a different story than I've got on my file.

Detective Brad Hoover: Again, I don't know what's in your file, because I'm not privy to that information, or what's there or what's not there. I'm just telling you from my perspective, and from an investigative perspective, and to what I've looked into, to what admissions you made back in April last year to me: I'm satisfied I've done what I could do as far as the investigation. If you'd like to provide me with more information about the specific occurrences that occurred in Peel Region, then we can talk about that after the focus of what we're here for today.

Paul Bernardo: But it is part of the focus.

Detective Brad Hoover: Well, it is, and it isn't.

Paul Bernardo: Well, I think it is.

Detective Brad Hoover: I mean, obviously, directly, we're here today to deal with the Baltovich matter, that you're aware of.

Paul Bernardo: But dealing with me, it comes down to credibility.

Detective Brad Hoover: Comes down to credibility. Absolutely, it does. And that's what we're here to talk about today, and so let's deal with that, and then we can deal with the other stuff afterwards. Is that okay?

Paul Bernardo: Yeah, go ahead. Just making my point on it, because it's gonna be addressed sometime.

Detective Brad Hoover: Absolutely, it will.

Paul Bernardo: It should have been dealt with a year and a bit ago.

Constable Darlene Coulis: Well, not quite a year, actually.

Detective Brad Hoover: A little over a year ago. Sorry.

Detective Brad Hoover: Um, I have some questions that were given to me to ask you in relation to the Baltovich matter, the Robert Baltovich matter. Before we do that, I just want to say: you understand, obviously, the importance of telling the truth, and the consequences, potentially, of someone who lies to the police in not telling the truth?

Paul Bernardo: I think we discovered that. Actually, I was referring, you guys tell the truth.

Detective Brad Hoover: Right. Okay, so we're aware of that. In this matter, I believe that you had some conversation with your counsel in regards to it, and there has been some discussion about polygraph testing in this matter. Is that true, or not true, or do you recall that?

Paul Bernardo: Wha... You're opening cans of worms everywhere.

Detective Brad Hoover: No, I'm just asking you a specific question.

Paul Bernardo: You know, that goes back to: you guys polygraphed everyone about the Camaro, you didn't polygraph Karla, and in two years since, have you guys gone down there and asked her? Have you settled the matter with it? Because you could say I lied or whatever about polygraph, but have you asked her? Because it comes down to a lot of that issue.

Detective Brad Hoover: Okay.

Paul Bernardo: You know, I mean, have you asked her? Has the Attorney General gone down...

Detective Brad Hoover: Okay, I don't know. Let me tell you a little bit. My involvement with this overall investigation of the Baltovich [matter] is very limited. The only knowledge that I have as to what investigation has been done or hasn't been done is specifically what's related to the conversations I've had about this interview here today, okay? Who or what other witnesses there are, I don't know.

Paul Bernardo: In answer, in answer to your question, I don't want to go off on tangents, but all these, all these issues are relevant. I know you [unclear: "don't think" / "think"] they are, but they are. In answer to your question, we had some discussion on it, but when Corcoran from the OPP came down before Karla was released, I told him I'd be willing to take a polygraph on anything and everything. Would you, in turn, are you going to go down before you release Karla and just ask her? She's not gonna take it. She's gonna fail on all these issues. Did her hand [unclear: "cause" / "contest"] [inaudible], blah, blah, blah. Did this, Tammy happen in July? Was the girl in January actually kidnapped, and not somebody I [unclear: "picked up at a bar" / "picked up her Marla"], that she tried to roll over? And all these other issues, all relevant, all relevant.

Paul Bernardo: And so then I addressed it to you guys when you came back again last year. I said, yeah, I'll take a polygraph on anything, because I'm not telling a lie on a thing. Are you, have you... Again, I asked the question: have you guys gone down there? I know that Karla's free now. I'm not in the business of putting her in jail. It's not my thing. But my point was, did you ask her the question, just so we get the story straight? I mean, if she refuses, well, there's a reason why she's refusing. And again, you guys couldn't provide the answer, and now, almost a year later, again, you don't provide the answer. So, I mean, you know, I don't know what you're asking me. You're asking me to take a polygraph when you [unclear: "were" / "aren't"] willing to ask her?

Detective Brad Hoover: Well, again...

Paul Bernardo: I mean...

Detective Brad Hoover: This, this, my part of this investigation is limited to what we're saying here today. So the details of all of what other witnesses may or may not have been asked or done, I don't know. And as a potential witness, I'm not allowed to tell you what [unclear: "other people have" / "we have"] done. So I have to sort of be careful about the way that it's answered, or even what you think my answer might be.

Paul Bernardo: Yeah, I know. I just, just wanted for the record that I gave you good information, which you guys could have, independent of me, could have verified my story or not. And whether you guys do or do not is your business. Like I said, I'm not a prosecutor. I'm not here to point a finger at anyone. But I showed you where to go. So if you guys don't do that, it's your business. But, you know, to me, it's like, if you didn't, why didn't you, if you want to know the truth about things?

Detective Brad Hoover: Right.

Paul Bernardo: So...

Detective Brad Hoover: I understand that, and I understand what you're saying. So, what we're here to talk about today: obviously you know that this statement may be used in court, or [unclear: "maybe sent to court" / "later accepted to court"], as a voluntary statement.

Paul Bernardo: Yeah.

Detective Brad Hoover: Okay. A polygraph obviously is not something that's court admissible, but I'm not sure if you're aware of that or not.

Paul Bernardo: Yeah, I am. [unclear: "So it's not before the court" / "I think it's not used about the court"].

Detective Brad Hoover: So the crux of what we're here to talk about is that it has been suggested that in the continuing case of the disappearance of Elizabeth Bain and the charge of murder against Robert Baltovich, that you are the alternative suspect, or an alternative suspect. Are you aware of that?

Paul Bernardo: Yeah, yeah.

Detective Brad Hoover: Did you kill Elizabeth Bain on June the 19th, 1990?

Paul Bernardo: Well, it's a loaded question. I mean, are we gonna go back and go through the time sequence of what happened in my life? I mean, I could just give a yes or no answer, but, you know, there's a lot of issues about that.

Detective Brad Hoover: Right.

Paul Bernardo: You know, Karla's, my role, who did what, where, when. This is why I said, did you guys, you know, go down there to get a polygraph, to see if she was telling the truth. Like, why didn't Bevan do it in the first place? I mean, he's polygraphing everyone over the Camaro. Why would he make a deal with someone and not give them a polygraph? It's incomprehensible to me. You know, because now I'm sitting, my file says her version, and it's a lie. You know, you know what I mean?

Detective Brad Hoover: Yeah.

Paul Bernardo: Like, you know, and I'm not making frivolous points here. I mean, and now you're asking me, after you, after you said Peel Regional said I'm lying about this, and then you're saying I'm lying about my [unclear: "profile"], you're saying I'm lying if I'm [unclear: "better"] or not, now you're saying, hey, did you kill this person? I mean, well, you're saying I'm lying here, here, here. I could say no, I didn't, but, I mean, you already said I'm lying here with Peel, you're saying...

Detective Brad Hoover: Okay, I'm not saying anything about who's lying. I'm simply, um...

Paul Bernardo: And I've given you directions to go to find the truth, and no one's done that.

Detective Brad Hoover: And I have asked, and again, I have told you that I've done investigations on information that you've told me, and as a result of that information I have been able to verify, in my mind, where you've told me the truth. So if Peel Region is lying about you, or someone else is lying about you, I have no control over that, or...

Paul Bernardo: Well, it goes right to credibility.

Detective Brad Hoover: Well, absolutely, it does. And that's, I guess, the easy way today is to, if we can go through, we'll answer the questions, and yes, I hope to be able to go through some timeline to identify where you were, what you were doing, specifically in relation to this, this case.

Paul Bernardo: Anyways, I know I'm giving you guys a hard time, being argumentative about certain things, but, I mean, really, I'm a human being, and when you guys do all these things, I've gotta... Anyways, I'll try and truncate it a little bit more, but... Anyways, the answer to that is no. But the 800-pound gorilla in the room is, that's a life-25 sentence, you know. It really comes down to credibility, and not only credibility, but then again, timeline. I mean, between what Karla's and my roles were, respectively, and this and that. The answer's no to that question.

Detective Brad Hoover: Did you have anything to do with her disappearance?

Paul Bernardo: No.

Detective Brad Hoover: Did you know Elizabeth Bain?

Paul Bernardo: Not that I know of.

Detective Brad Hoover: Had you ever met her?

Paul Bernardo: I'm gonna answer that with, I don't remember. Because if I did or I didn't, I don't remember. But I know an ex-girlfriend [unclear: "tried to say it" / "trying to say that"], but, like I say, I don't remember.

Detective Brad Hoover: I guess that you are, obviously, aware of her disappearance?

Paul Bernardo: Yeah, sort of.

Detective Brad Hoover: Do you recall when you became aware of this?

Paul Bernardo: Best that I can recollect, [unclear: "after, in September" / "this after I was in jail"]. [unclear: "Didn't follow the news much" / "I didn't follow this question"].

Detective Brad Hoover: The date, obviously, June the 19th, 1990, was...

Paul Bernardo: But, but, but, you know, other than that, I don't remember. Maybe I heard about it before, but I can't recall if I did or not. But I remember in jail, I had newspapers after that fact, and I saw something on it.

Detective Brad Hoover: We'll sort of get into that a little bit when we hope to go through a bit of a timeline with you, as to some things that may jog your memory as to...

Paul Bernardo: [unclear: "We're talking now"].

Detective Brad Hoover: ...back in that time. I mean, if you asked me what I was doing three weeks ago on Tuesday, I probably couldn't tell you unless you put some reference to it. So hopefully we'll be able to do that. And again, obviously, June the 19th, 1990: do you know what you were doing that day?

Paul Bernardo: I have no recollection.

Detective Brad Hoover: I have a document here in front of me that references some points in time around this, the June of 1990 period, from police investigation. This is what indicates you may have been involved with, or may have, certain things that you may have done, and I'd like to go through a couple of them that may sort of assist you in remembering what you were doing back in 1990. The first part of June 1990, actually June the 1st, Karla had a doctor's appointment where she was complaining of pains in her right side. Perhaps she had something to do with the rabies shot. Does that ring any bells?

Paul Bernardo: None at all.

Detective Brad Hoover: In the first part of June you had a Nissan 240SX, is that correct?

Paul Bernardo: Yeah.

Detective Brad Hoover: You're making several trips into the United States: June 2nd, June 3rd, June 10th, June 16th. I think at that point you were involved with cigarette smuggling and things like that, from what I recall. Is that no?

Paul Bernardo: No, that wouldn't be. That wasn't until after [unclear: "we moved out" / "2010"], so.

Detective Brad Hoover: Okay. So, making several trips to the States within a couple of days, that's something...?

Paul Bernardo: When we started the relationship, we were going over all the time, so just for personal reasons only.

Detective Brad Hoover: On June the 16th you shopped at Ruff Hewn. Is that Niagara Falls, United States? Does that store sound familiar to you?

Paul Bernardo: Yeah, it sounds familiar. I have no idea if those are the dates, but you got a receipt for it.

Detective Brad Hoover: I think there must be a receipt, and again, I don't have all the details. I'm just going by what's on this sheet of paper. It's a black expandable binder. Does that...

Paul Bernardo: I can't recall 100 percent, but...

Detective Brad Hoover: That would have been around the same time. That was about a week prior to, if you purchased one of those, Elizabeth Bain going missing.

Paul Bernardo: I have no idea when I purchased it. I just recall I had something like that, like an accordion binder type of thing.

Detective Brad Hoover: June, June the 16th, again, that would have been the same day, in St. Catharines, you attended a movie, Back to the Future 3. Do you recall when that movie came out?

Paul Bernardo: I have no idea.

Detective Brad Hoover: Okay. There's a receipt for a cellphone purchased at a Radio Shack at the Town and Country Mall at 6366 Yonge Street. Do you remember buying a cellphone?

Paul Bernardo: I know I bought a cellphone around that time, because when I declared bankruptcy, I handed my other one in, and I bought the Radio Shack one. I don't know the dates.

Detective Brad Hoover: That would have been the day after Elizabeth Bain went missing. Does that... Do you remember anything you were involved with around that time? You say you were going bankrupt, so what type of activity were you involved in, sort of on a day-to-day basis?

Paul Bernardo: The only thing I remember about the bankruptcy, that happened around a couple days before the, the sexual assault that the composite came out. That was, if I recollect correctly, it was two days before I filed for that. But I couldn't even tell you that date. I just know it was some time in... What date did you say that was? June the...?

Detective Brad Hoover: June the 16th of 1990.

Paul Bernardo: When was that sexual assault, the one with the composite? Was it the 24th? What date do you guys have for that?

Detective Brad Hoover: There was one, there was a sexual assault in May of 1990.

Paul Bernardo: That the composite one? In May?

Detective Brad Hoover: I think that it is, but it doesn't say that specifically here. But shortly after that...

Paul Bernardo: My timeline's off. Um, I don't know.

Detective Brad Hoover: The end of June of 1990, that was the original, when someone identified you potentially as the Scarborough rapist...

Paul Bernardo: When was that, the end of...?

Detective Brad Hoover: That was June the 28th of 1990. Lori Homolka's 19th birthday was June the 22nd of 1990. Do you recall [unclear: "her going to her birthday" / "her 19th birthday"]?

Paul Bernardo: I know, I know it was around that time, but I don't specifically recall that birthday.

Detective Brad Hoover: The only reason it might have sunk in is she would have then been of legal drinking age, and perhaps you [inaudible].

Paul Bernardo: Way before that.

Detective Brad Hoover: [inaudible] June 21st. So, just the day after you've bought the cellphone, you made a purchase at...

Paul Bernardo: I'm sorry, you're saying what, 19, for this girl's...?

Detective Brad Hoover: June 19th was the day she went missing.

Paul Bernardo: What day did I buy that?

Detective Brad Hoover: June 20th was the day you bought the cellphone. June [unclear: "25" / "21st"]...

Paul Bernardo: I must have declared bankruptcy around then, because I got that cellphone. I had to hand my, all my, uh, items in to the trustee, and I had [unclear: "a cellphone" / "a Panasonic cellphone"], so I went in and got a Radio Shack one. So it would have been right around the same time. I don't think I went a month without it. I don't think so. I might have, but anyways, I don't know. It was a while ago, so memory's a bit fuzzy.

Detective Brad Hoover: Yeah. May the 29th, which was just before that, about a month before that, that was the day that the police released the composite.

Paul Bernardo: Ah, so it was May. So I lost a month. That's what happens: [unclear: "you lock a guy up for fifteen years and then bring this all up" / "you lock a guy up for 15 years and the wind blows"]. The memory gets fuzzy. So I guess I waited a month to get the cellphone.

Detective Brad Hoover: About a month to get the cellphone. Did you recall anything, what were, what were you doing, sorry, during that month? Anything?

Paul Bernardo: Probably the same thing, [unclear: "says they're" (captions); not in Whisper], going across the border, back and forth, recreational stuff. I know Tammy happened in July. That was, I think, third week in July, for the first time. But this was back a few months.

Detective Brad Hoover: Okay, so just prior to Tammy's birthday, there was some shopping at a Canadian Tire store...

Paul Bernardo: Lori.

Detective Brad Hoover: Lori's birthday. Sorry, Lori's birthday. Two times in one day you went to Canadian Tire on Sheppard Avenue, 1019 Sheppard Avenue. Do you normally shop at Canadian Tire stores?

Paul Bernardo: Back then, yeah. That's before all these supercentre Walmarts and stuff.

Detective Brad Hoover: Do you ever recall having any conversations about the disappearance of Elizabeth Bain?

Paul Bernardo: No.

Detective Brad Hoover: If I, if I played you a... I'm going to play you a short audio clip. It's a conversation that you had... or, a conversation between Tony Moore, who was an investigator with the Toronto Police, and Karla Homolka. I'm just going to play this, to see if this sounds familiar, or if it jogs your memory as to any conversation you may have had.

Investigator On The Audio Clip: Had there been any discussion about Bain's disappearance?

Karla Homolka: Um, I think the only thing that he ever said about her was that her boyfriend did it, or something like that. But there wasn't any real extensive discussion. But he talked about, like, all the women that were disappearing.

Detective Brad Hoover: And again, that was a conversation between an investigator, Tony Moore, with the Toronto Police Service, and Karla Homolka. Does that conversation, is that something you may recall saying to Karla, or talking about that?

Paul Bernardo: Well, you know, she went down, "Paul did it." Catchphrases at trial: "Paul did it," "It was Paul." She's continuing right here. The fact of the matter was, since I didn't pay attention to anything, I didn't watch the news back then. I was too busy doing other things. I didn't pay attention. But there's the profile: a serial killer pays attention to all the news media, this narcissistic personality, blah, blah, blah, all that crap. I don't know anything about this case now. I don't know if this guy did it. I don't even care. I'm not a prosecutor, you know. Do the right thing for society, blah, blah, blah. I don't know if he did it. [unclear: "I don't have the facts to know if he did it, and I certainly didn't know back then" / "I don't know the facts of it. He knows if he did it. And I certainly didn't"]. So to say that, for me to make... She's alleging that I made a statement, "the boyfriend did it."

Paul Bernardo: Well, you know, some cases I have followed, because I'm in jail and I've nothing else to do but watch the TV. But I weigh the facts, you know. I take, you know, like, did OJ do it, for example, right? You weigh the facts about whether he did or not. He got off, so I think that's the law. But I would have had to weigh the facts. I don't know the facts in these circumstances, so there's no way I can make a statement such as that. How could I say he did it if I don't know the facts of the case? So, no, she's, she's incorrect.

Detective Brad Hoover: And it may depend on when that conversation took place, between, between her and, and that investigator.

Paul Bernardo: Well, Moore, wasn't he back when that deal was made? Moore, if I remember reading the transcripts, that was a name from day one, when she signed her little twelve-year deal, no polygraph required. Hey, I'm, I'm giving you the truth here. You guys can prove me wrong. Go down there, ask her. You're gonna get a no. I keep telling you, but no one does it. But, um, but, you know, so that sounds like a conversation, but that's what you do: you want to blame it all on the other person. You know, [unclear: "you paint that scenario: psychopathic serial killer" / "you can paint that, that's terrible. It's like, I don't know how to stand out"].

Detective Brad Hoover: Do you, do you know Robert Baltovich?

Paul Bernardo: I've seen him on, you know, on [inaudible] TV or whatever. Okay, so I purposely avoided this case.

Detective Brad Hoover: Right.

Paul Bernardo: I don't like this shit on my mind, you know what I mean? Anything to do with... You know, unfortunately, when Karla came out, I watched and tried to discern truth, fact between fiction, a couple of years ago. But otherwise, you know, I don't like to get into these things. I've had 100 lifetimes [unclear: "of all her stuff" / "before this time"], and I don't want my mind poisoned with this and this and this. So in this case I avoid it as much as possible. But I have seen his face on the TV.

Detective Brad Hoover: Right. Anything else you'd like to tell us about this investigation?

Paul Bernardo: No.

Detective Brad Hoover: Okay, the time now is 2:35, and we'll conclude this portion of our interview.

Paul Bernardo: [unclear: "Okay" / "Thank you"]. ---