"Kill Somebody for 45 Bucks": Loren Herzog Questioned by Detectives, March 21, 1999
Four days after his arrest, detectives reread Loren Herzog his rights. He then described Wesley Shermantine robbing and killing a man by the roadside, said he was present when Shermantine killed a girl in 1985, and said Shermantine was the one person who scared him.
- Subject
- Loren Herzog
- Recorded
- March 21, 1999
- Runtime
- 11:20
Content warning: Herzog describes a man being robbed and killed at the roadside "for 45 bucks," a two-person shooting, and the killing of a young woman, all of which he attributes to Shermantine.
The Interview
This is part of a San Joaquin County Sheriff's Department interview-room video recorded on March 21, 1999, four days after Loren Herzog and Wesley Shermantine were arrested. It opens with a detective rereading Herzog his Miranda rights, one by one; Herzog says he "never understood" them and, asked whether he understands, answers "Yes." Detectives then question him about other killings. Herzog addresses the two detectives as "Tony" and "Joe."
Historical Context
Herzog and Shermantine grew up together in Linden, California, in San Joaquin County. They were arrested on March 17, 1999, after DNA tests matched Cyndi Vanderheiden's blood to stains in Shermantine's car. Over the following days Herzog was questioned at length, most of it on videotape, and implicated Shermantine in a series of killings. On March 22 and 23, 1999, he was charged with further murders, among them those of Henry Howell, Paul Cavanaugh and Howard King, and of Robin Armtrout. Newspapers called the pair the "Speed Freak Killers" because of their methamphetamine use.
Circumstances of the Interview
This tape falls within the days of custodial questioning that a California appeals court reviewed in 2004, when it found that three of Herzog's four confessions had been coerced, citing among other things ignored attempts to remain silent and the delay before his arraignment. Part way through, Herzog asks, "Do we have to keep talking?" and says he does not want to; the detective says it is his choice and that they can stop, then goes on to ask about "the Indian that was shot." Which of Herzog's statements the court found coerced is not stated in the sources seen.
What the Interview Covers
Asked about "what happened out on Daggett Road," where a detective describes a man going up to the driver's side of a car and shooting, Herzog says little and that he does not remember much. He says "I'm not a killer" and that he wishes he had not seen what he saw. Asked about "the Indian dude," he says he and Shermantine came upon a drunk man by the roadside and that "Wes robs him and kills him," adding "Kill somebody for 45 bucks." He calls Shermantine "a cold-blooded killer" with "no emotions" and says he told his wife Shermantine was the only person in the world who scared him. Asked about September 1985, he says Shermantine killed a girl and that he "was with him," but says he does not remember the details. He says the roadside killing was the first he saw Shermantine commit. The clip ends with detectives having him confirm that he is in the Sheriff's Office, booked for murder, and that he understood his rights, and asking whether he has been treated fairly; he says the Sheriff's Office has been fair and the Stockton Police Department has not.
What Makes the Recording Significant
The tape records Herzog's own accounts of killings beyond the Vanderheiden case on the eve of the added murder charges, with Miranda rights reread on camera and Herzog's request to stop talking. Matching his accounts to particular victims is an inference: the roadside killing fits the death of Henry Howell on Highway 88 in Alpine County in 1984, the Daggett Road shooting fits the deaths of Paul Cavanaugh and Howard King, and the September 1985 killing fits that of Robin Armtrout. None of those names is spoken on the tape.
Archival Importance
The Record published this and other interview clips in 2012, after Herzog's suicide in January of that year.
Important Caveats
Everything Herzog says is his own account, given under questioning that the Court of Appeal later held to be coercive in part, and it puts the killings on Shermantine. In 2001 a jury convicted Herzog of the murders of Vanderheiden, Cavanaugh and King and as an accessory in Howell's death, and acquitted him in Armtrout's death; the convictions were overturned in 2004, and he then pleaded guilty to voluntary manslaughter (Vanderheiden) and to accessory counts (Cavanaugh, King, Howell). "Indian" is the speakers' word; Howell's ethnicity is not stated in the sources seen. One passage about the 1985 killing (09:17) reads "he" in two machine texts and "I" in a third: it must not be quoted or summarized beyond "he says he was with Shermantine" until checked by ear. The clip is edited: the burned-in clock on the tape runs from about 12:33 to 14:40 over its 11 minutes. How The Record obtained the tapes is not documented.
Detective: Let me get this out, because I told you I was going to have to read these, right, to you?
Loren Herzog: Yeah. I still don't understand them, but go ahead.
Detective: No, I'll read, I'll read them to you, and I'll go through each one so you understand. Okay? So there's no confusion.
Loren Herzog: I never understood [unclear: "them"], so...
Detective: Okay. Okay, you have the right to remain silent. Okay? You understand that one?
Loren Herzog: That's kind of like what you were just explaining to me.
Detective: [unclear: "Probably" (captions) / "Wrongly" (Whisper)], is that you're not... I mean, you have the right to not say nothing, period. Okay? You can drink your soda and say nothing.
Loren Herzog: [unclear: "What would having more hurt me than anything?" (captions: "whato having more hurt me anything") / "Nothing more hurt me than anything else" (Whisper)]
Detective: [unclear: "Will it hurt you?" (captions) / "Well, it hurt you" (Whisper)] I don't know. 'Cause I don't, again, I don't know what you have to say. Okay. And next one is, anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law. So that explains to you that everything we discuss here, okay, could be used against you in court. Okay? It says "can and will be used against you." Will be used against you, can be used against you. Okay? You have the right to talk to a lawyer, have him or her present with you while you're being questioned.
Detective: So if you want to say, hey, I want a lawyer, you're not going to get one until Monday, unless you can afford one to come in right now. But we're not going to talk to you, okay? And, I mean, then we won't talk to you at all. If you [unclear: "cannot afford to hire a lawyer" (captions: "if you out afford a hire enough one a lawyer") / "have a higher order" (Whisper)], one will be appointed to represent you before any questioning, if you wish. And that's, again, where if you can't afford one, then one's going to be given to you come Monday, in regards to Cyndi's case. Okay? And then, if and when you guys decide to talk with us, you and your lawyer, then you can, or you won't, one of those two things. Do you understand each of these rights I've explained to you?
Detective: Yes, no, maybe?
Loren Herzog: Yes.
Detective: [unclear: "Don't want to drown you now" (Whisper, captions) / "Don't want to drown you, dog" (second machine pass)]. It's, it's got to help you to have people know that you care about, you know, what happened, and [unclear: "sorry" (captions, second machine pass) / "the story" (Whisper)], and everything else.
Loren Herzog: I'm not a killer. I mean, I don't want to be, and I really wish I hadn't seen what I've seen. Well, not only because I'm sitting here. That's going to be on my mind for the rest of my life.
Detective: Yeah.
Loren Herzog: [unclear: "Something like" (captions) / "And something I like" (Whisper)], picture it again and again, you know.
Detective: I wouldn't either. Did you give any more thought to about, uh, what happened out on Daggett Road?
Loren Herzog: Not really.
Detective: What can you tell me about that?
Loren Herzog: I don't know what I can tell you about that.
Detective: So he goes up to the driver's side and shoots? You know how many times? [pause] Then what happens?
Loren Herzog: I don't remember much after that. [captions only]
Detective: Okay. [unclear: "Do he"] How many people are in a car? You said two, I think, right?
Loren Herzog: [unclear: "Right."] I think there was... [unclear: "probably should have been exactly the time" (Whisper) / "probably should Sil" (captions)]. I don't know.
Detective: I mean, like you said, you're... Like I told you, I mean, we already know what happened, okay? Now it's your version. I mean, are you happy about this?
Loren Herzog: [unclear: "I had" (captions)] No way.
Detective: Were you happy about it then?
Loren Herzog: No.
Detective: Let me ask you this. What kept you, 12 years ago, I think, is that? 13 years ago?
Loren Herzog: Yeah.
Detective: What kept you from going to the police at that point in time and saying, look, my friend's a psycho, here's what he just did?
Loren Herzog: The psycho himself.
Detective: 'Cause you're concerned what, for your own safety?
Loren Herzog: Oh, hell yeah.
Detective: I understand that. Okay? Other people can understand that too, okay? That's kind of what I talked to you about before: that if people don't know what motivates you, or what keeps you from doing things, they ain't never going to know. 'Cause all they're going to hear about is from Wes's side, saying, "This is what we did." And it ain't nothing about "This is what just I did," it's "what we did, my homeboy and me." [unclear: "See my picture of my homeboy" (captions, second machine pass) / "seeing a picture of my homeboy" (Whisper)], you know.
Loren Herzog: Do we have to keep talking?
Detective: Well, I'd like to. I know you don't want to, but...
Loren Herzog: I don't. [unclear: "I really don't" (captions) / "I already know" (Whisper) / "I don't. I don't." (second machine pass)]. [silence, about 10 seconds]
Detective: Well, that's your, I mean, that's your, your choice. If you don't want [unclear: "to talk, that's" (captions: "if you don't want talking that's") / "to talk to anyone else, talk to them" (Whisper)]. We can, you can stop, like I said. After, I mean, once you go in tomorrow, whether or not we'll be able to talk about anything anymore, I don't know. [unclear: "And there was just like" (captions) / "And there's your space" (Whisper)]. Like you and I know, there's other stuff to talk about. We mentioned it to you the other day, okay? And if it's something that you have knowledge on, like I said, I, I, we won't go into all the details, we won't, you know. You just give me a little bit, and I'll talk to the district attorney about it. About the, uh, about the Indian that was shot.
Detective: You know nothing about that one?
Loren Herzog: [unclear: "I actually don't know anything about anything" (Whisper) / "Don't know any about any" (captions) / "I actually don't know anything about anything else" (second machine pass)].
Detective: You don't know about anything else? [pause] As, as even the limited amount of time I've dealt with you, I can read that face. [pause] Okay. Is it you don't know anything else, or you just don't want to talk about anything else?
Loren Herzog: [unclear: "Don't want... time" (captions) / "You talk about time" (Whisper) / "No more time" (second machine pass)]. [pause] [unclear: "I remember" (Whisper, captions) / "I'm hungry" (second machine pass)]. Yeah, we [unclear: "was" / "were"] there.
Detective: Which one?
Loren Herzog: The one with the Indian dude.
Detective: You were there? What happened on that part? [unclear: "Who killed that guy?" (captions: "what killed that guy") / "The boy that killed that guy" (Whisper) / "He was killed and dead" (second machine pass)]. Why is he saying you did?
Loren Herzog: I don't know.
Detective: Okay. Tell me, so I can fit his story and your story. [unclear: "Who are we going to believe?" (captions) / "over there in the lake" (Whisper)]
Loren Herzog: Well, I'll tell you the truth. We [unclear: "come" / "was coming"] down the road, and he [unclear: "sees" / "seen"] some dude f***ing lay on the side of the road. [unclear: "Kind of his car or something" (captions) / "I f***ed up on his car or something" (Whisper, second machine pass)]. We turn around, and Wes robs him and kills him too. The dude was so drunk the dude would have never known nothing anyways. But Wes, he had to kill that dude. [pause] [unclear: "Shut up. I... Maybe it's just your match, man" (second machine pass only)]. It's just too much, man. Kill somebody for 45 bucks. [pause] [unclear: "He killed somebody for the last time I met him. I know. He killed him." (Whisper only)] No matter what, I hope you guys believe me, 'cause I mean, he is like this, and that's this type of person you're dealing with. He is like that. He's a cold-blooded killer. Yes, sir. Has no emotions. There it is. [unclear: "He is a cold-blooded killer, man" (second machine pass; Whisper "These are cold-blooded killers, man") / "gold let kill him man" (captions)].
Loren Herzog: I don't know if you guys can understand why I've been so scared of him so long.
Detective: I understand that.
Loren Herzog: [unclear: "I'm scared of" (captions) / "I think they're scared of him" (Whisper)]. I told my wife, the only one person in the world [unclear: "that"] scares me.
Detective: Time to lock [unclear: "this up" (captions) / "his f****** up" (Whisper) / "his *** up" (second machine pass)], huh?
Loren Herzog: Oh, [unclear: "you sure" / "yes, sir"]. [unclear: "Has been time a long time ago" (captions) / "Been down a long time ago" (second machine pass)].
Detective: Yeah.
Loren Herzog: Wish it would have been done a long time ago.
Detective: I, I know. Like I told you before, it starts now. We're going to be putting him away.
Loren Herzog: I want to see [unclear: "his f******" (Whisper) / "a s***" (Whisper, repeated) / "a ****" (second machine pass)] on death row, honestly. You told me you [unclear: "need my help put away" (captions) / "needed my help, but he went" (Whisper) / "didn't. My health wasn't working" (second machine pass)], and I know you did. You said trust you [unclear: "got" (captions) / "Gotcha" (second machine pass)], and everybody. I'm trusting you, Tony. [unclear: "I know that one" (possibly the detective)]. More than anybody.
Loren Herzog: All right. [unclear: "You're pretty cool" (Whisper) / "Right, pretty cool" (captions)]. I'm trusting Joe too. Both of you guys. I'm trusting you guys more than anybody.
Detective: During September of 1985, do you know of any girls, or anyone, that Wes Shermantine had killed during that period of time?
Loren Herzog: That must be the one.
Detective: And how do you know that?
Loren Herzog: 'Cause I can't think of any others.
Detective: [unclear: "Or, I" (captions) / "Well, Mike" (Whisper) / "Well, my" (second machine pass)]... Is this an assumption? Are you just assuming he killed her, or were you there, or did he tell you about it?
Loren Herzog: No, there's a girl he killed.
Detective: And how do you know that?
Loren Herzog: I said, well, I was with him.
Detective: That's what you need to tell me.
Loren Herzog: I'm trying, Tony. [pause] Okay. There again, my details aren't very [unclear: "much" (Whisper) / word missing (captions)].
Detective: Give me what, give me what you can.
Loren Herzog: I don't even remember how [unclear: "he" (Whisper, captions) / "I" (second machine pass)] picked her up, or whatever. I just remember that [unclear: "he killed a girl" (Whisper, captions) / "I had to kill the girl" (second machine pass)], [unclear: "then stabbed to death" (captions: "then s to death") / "Seven to the death" (second machine pass); not in Whisper]. I don't know where [unclear: "he" (Whisper, captions) / "I" (second machine pass)] left her.
Detective: Did you try to stop it? [pause] Loren, you need to talk [unclear: "to me"].
Loren Herzog: No. No.
Detective: Did she ask you to help him? Did, did Wes ask you to help him take care of the body afterwards?
Loren Herzog: No.
Detective: What happened to the body?
Loren Herzog: I don't know.
Detective: The first time that you saw Wesley Shermantine kill anybody was which case?
Loren Herzog: [unclear: "He"] The what?
Detective: The Indian guy?
Loren Herzog: The Indian guy. That was the first.
Detective: Yeah. And the last?
Loren Herzog: Last time? [unclear: "Was Cyndi, right" (captions: "was say been right") / "Of course. It's in Van Eyre" (Whisper) / "Of course. Seeing better eyes" (second machine pass); probably "Cyndi Vanderheiden"].
Detective: Okay. Earlier you told me about your brain being mush.
Loren Herzog: It feels like it. Yeah, it feels like it.
Detective: But you know where you're at, right?
Loren Herzog: In jail.
Detective: You're in jail, and you're at where? What office is this?
Loren Herzog: Sheriff's Office.
Detective: All right, this is the Sheriff's Office. You're aware of that. You know what you're booked in for?
Loren Herzog: For murder.
Detective: For which case?
Loren Herzog: [unclear: "Just Vanderheiden" (Whisper: "Just in Van Eyre") / "send" (captions)].
Detective: All right. So you're aware of what's going on. Everything you've heard, all these, the other officers talking, police officers and us, you understand what's going on here, is that correct?
Loren Herzog: [unclear: "I think I believe so" (Whisper) / "Say I believe so" (captions)].
Detective: Well, you say you believe. It's either yes or no. What don't you understand? Let me clear that up.
Loren Herzog: I understand.
Detective: All right. The rights that they read you earlier, you understood those, right?
Loren Herzog: Yeah.
Detective: Because we read it to you over and over again, every time we've made contact with you.
Loren Herzog: Right.
Detective: And you understand those completely, correct, Loren?
Loren Herzog: Yeah.
Detective: Have I been fair to you?
Loren Herzog: Yeah. [unclear: "I'm saying that"]
Detective: Has Joe been fair to you? Has the Sheriff's Office been fair to you?
Loren Herzog: Yeah.
Detective: Stockton Police Department, have they been fair to you?
Loren Herzog: No. No. No.
Loren Herzog: Oh, I... my voice always gets a little bit high.
Detective: All right. But I just want to make sure that we have to be fair to you, and you know what? We have to be fair to Wes too. Have I been fair to you guys?
Loren Herzog: Yes. [recording ends] ---