"He Ain't the Same Person": Loren Herzog Questioned on the Day of the Arrests, March 17, 1999 (Part 2)
Pressed on where Cyndi Vanderheiden's body was, Loren Herzog told a detective he did not know, said he had lied before because he was scared of Wesley Shermantine, and said Shermantine once claimed to have killed "24 people or something."
- Subject
- Loren Herzog
- Recorded
- March 17, 1999
- Runtime
- 7:51
Content warning: A detective summarizes the rape and killing of a 25-year-old woman, and the questioning turns to the killing of a 16-year-old girl and other killings. No graphic detail.
The Interview
This is the second part of a San Joaquin County Sheriff's Department interview-room video recorded on March 17, 1999, the day Loren Herzog and Wesley Shermantine were arrested in the disappearance of Cyndi Vanderheiden. A detective summarizes that account and then questions Herzog about where her body is, why he lied in earlier statements, the killing of Chevy Wheeler, and other killings.
Historical Context
Herzog and Shermantine grew up together in Linden, California, in San Joaquin County. Cyndi Vanderheiden, 25, disappeared from nearby Clements on November 14, 1998. When DNA tests matched her blood to stains in Shermantine's car, both men were arrested on March 17, 1999. Her body was not found at the time, which is why detectives pressed Herzog on where it might be. Chevelle "Chevy" Wheeler, 16, had last been seen outside Franklin High School in Stockton on October 16, 1985. Newspapers called Herzog and Shermantine the "Speed Freak Killers" because of their methamphetamine use.
Circumstances of the Interview
This recording belongs to the sequence of custodial interviews that a California appeals court reviewed in 2004, when it found that three of Herzog's four confessions had been coerced, citing the length of the questioning, his fatigue, inadequate meals, threats and promises, the delay of more than four days before his arraignment, and ignored attempts to remain silent. Which of his statements the court found coerced is not stated in the sources seen.
What the Interview Covers
The detective restates Herzog's account: that Shermantine took Vanderheiden "out there against her will," raped and killed her "so that she wouldn't tell on him." Asked where she is, Herzog says "No, sir." The detective appeals to the places the two men had hunted and hiked, and tells him "You can be the hero here." Herzog says he thought Shermantine would tell him where the body was but he did not, and that he knew of mines on "the property" but did not know where they were. Asked why he lied before, he says "Scared," and that he was scared of Shermantine because "he ain't the same person" who had been his friend, and agrees when the detective asks whether Shermantine is unpredictable. He also speaks of being ashamed of "not being able to say, do nothing." He says Shermantine "just said he killed" Chevy Wheeler and that he had nothing to do with it, and that Shermantine once told him he had killed "24 people or something." The detective urges him to tell what he knows about other killings, and closes by saying Shermantine has boasted that he and Herzog had hunted "the ultimate game" and is "going to pin it on you."
What Makes the Recording Significant
The clip records detectives raising, on the day of the arrests, the possibility of many more killings, a theme that returned in 2012 when Shermantine began telling a bounty hunter where victims might be buried and remains were recovered in Calaveras County and from a well near Linden. It also shows Herzog explaining his earlier lies as fear of Shermantine.
Archival Importance
The Record posted this part on April 17, 2012, about two months before it posted part 1 and the other clips. With part 1, the March 19 clip, the March 21 clip, the February 1 clip and Shermantine's March 18 interview, it documents the questioning that produced the case against both men.
Important Caveats
Everything Herzog says here is his own account, given under questioning that the Court of Appeal later held to be coercive in part. His claim that Shermantine spoke of killing "24 people or something" is his report of an unverified boast; Shermantine was convicted of four murders. The detective's statement that Shermantine had spoken of hunting "the ultimate game" is the detective's claim in an interrogation and was not tested on this tape. Herzog was never convicted of Vanderheiden's murder after the appeal: in 2004 he pleaded guilty to her voluntary manslaughter. Many of Herzog's short answers are quiet and come from the captions only. How The Record obtained the tapes is not documented.
Detective: What you described is a very horrendous nightmare in a lot of ways that you have lived through and saw and been experiencing ever since then. Okay, I understand that. Given the set of circumstances that happened, and the fact that you and Wes have been friends for years, although you have not been seeing him lately because of just...
Loren Herzog: We used to be.
Detective: ...the way things are, but you guys did grow up together for quite a few years.
Loren Herzog: Yeah.
Detective: Okay. Uh, you described him taking her out there against her will, with her saying, "Take me back," him grabbing [unclear: "her by the hair" / "by the air" (machine texts)], forcing himself, raping her, basically killing her. Okay. His intention, it sounds to me, was to rape her and to kill her so that she wouldn't tell on him. Basically what you described. Do you know where Cyndi is?
Loren Herzog: No, sir.
Detective: Do you have any idea?
Loren Herzog: I've tried to come up... I can't. I don't...
Detective: You grew up with him, you've been hunting up there, you archery hunted, you've been on foot all around there. There's some, there's some places that you and Loren know more than anybody in this whole world.
Loren Herzog: Me?
Detective: You, you and Wes. I'm sorry, I'm looking at you and I'm saying your name. There's some places that you guys know, and I know, I, I'm a hunter. I've been places where I say there's no way nobody's set foot in this spot right here. You can be the hero here.
Loren Herzog: [unclear: "Wish I knew that" / "Wish I know that"]. I know that.
Detective: But what I'd like to do...
Loren Herzog: [unclear: "Close enough to where I could know that a long time" (captions only)].
Detective: What I'm saying is there's some places that you and him have been hunting, hiking and, and just [unclear: "fooling around" / "sping around"], even, you know, really for so long.
Loren Herzog: I don't know.
Detective: Since all this has happened, he has not indicated to you anything that would tell us where he placed that body?
Loren Herzog: I thought he would. He didn't.
Detective: Why wouldn't he? [unclear: "He saw" / "You saw"] everything. You know how crucial this is.
Loren Herzog: I know it. I know it. I wish I knew, because [unclear: "knew, I know, if I knew, man, we would, here, we'd be going" (captions) / "if I'm not Christian and or if I knew man we would" (Whisper)]. I thought it might have been on the property, but I guess that's been searched, right? I mean, but there's, I know there's mines and stuff there that I don't know where they're at. I know I've, you know, heard of them. I mean, if I knew where there was certain mine shafts or whatever on that property, I would take it. But [unclear: "he"] never really showed me that. I mean, I'm trying to, trying to think of something.
Detective: Did Wes threaten... did he threaten you?
Loren Herzog: [unclear: "He threatened me" (captions) / "Did he threaten you?" (second machine pass)]. [unclear: "No" (captions only)].
Detective: [unclear: "Why did you lie before?" (captions) / "Why don't you like for" (Whisper) / "Why don't you line for me?" (second machine pass)]
Loren Herzog: Scared.
Detective: Scared of what?
Loren Herzog: Well, a few things.
Detective: What are those things?
Loren Herzog: [unclear: "Next" / "Mark" / "One of"] [unclear: "the man" / "the guy"] we're talking about.
Detective: Wes Shermantine?
Loren Herzog: Yes.
Detective: You're scared of Wes Shermantine? But he's your friend.
Loren Herzog: Like I said, we [unclear: "were" / "been"] friends for a long time. That's why I guess I'm scared. [unclear: "K, just so" (captions) / "because you just owe it to the rest of you" (second machine pass)]. That's the way he is, the way he turned, you know. He ain't the same person [unclear: "as was my friend" / "no, was my friend" / "that was my friend"].
Detective: Are you scared because he's unpredictable?
Loren Herzog: Yes, sir.
Detective: What else were you scared of?
Loren Herzog: The main thing.
Detective: What was the other one?
Loren Herzog: [unclear: "That was" / "I was"] more ashamed and scared the other way.
Detective: Ashamed of what?
Loren Herzog: [unclear: "Yeah, scared of" (captions only)].
Detective: Think at one time you had mentioned being ashamed of what, Loren?
Loren Herzog: Not able to do nothing. Not being able to say, do nothing for [unclear: "what"]...
Detective: [unclear: "Not being able to stop it?" / "send you to be able to stop it" (captions) / "Did you be able to stop it?" (second machine pass)]
Loren Herzog: Yeah.
Detective: If you had to do it all over again, would you have stopped it?
Loren Herzog: I [unclear: "have tried" / "was trying"] to figure out a better way, but [unclear: "try" / "of trying"].
Detective: Did he tell you how he killed Chevy Wheeler?
Loren Herzog: No. He just said he killed her.
Detective: He just said he killed her?
Loren Herzog: Um, yeah.
Detective: Why would he tell you?
Loren Herzog: I don't know why. I guess because he, you know, asked me [unclear: "lost up"] and I didn't know. I guess he just had to tell me, 'cause I didn't know.
Detective: Did you have anything to do with him, with her?
Loren Herzog: Not at all.
Detective: You didn't help him like you did with Cyndi? [pause] Has he told you he's killed anybody else?
Loren Herzog: Well, well, excuse me. Not, not named in particular. [unclear: "He told me" / "She told me" (machine texts) / "She was only" (second machine pass)] one time he killed 24 people or something.
Detective: I don't think you want to go there, Loren.
Loren Herzog: I don't, I, I really...
Detective: And I understand why. But I think you have knowledge of some other homicides that he's done. And at some point in time, maybe not right now, you know what, and I'm not going to push you, okay? It may be very advantageous for you to spend a couple of hours out of your life to make sure that the truth comes out about the evilness inside of this guy.
Loren Herzog: I'm probably one of the only people that really knows. That's why I told you, you know, what I told you. I just wanted to just, you know, [unclear: "stop him myself" (Whisper) / "stop stoping myself" (captions)], you know.
Detective: Wes is making comments about you.
Loren Herzog: Yeah.
Detective: Things such as, you know, "Loren and I have hunted just about everything, including the ultimate game." You know what that ultimate game is? There is no ultimate game for him. He's implicating you. What I foresee here is that when we haul Wes in here, he's going to pin it on you, no matter what. He's holding [it] over your head. It's going to come out. [recording ends] ---