"That Was a Group Thing": David Berkowitz and Maury Terry on Inside Edition, 1993
On the last night of a three-part Inside Edition series, David Berkowitz told Maury Terry that a woman fired one of the Son of Sam shootings, that the letters were "a group thing", and answered a plea from Stacy Moskowitz's mother.
- Subject
- David Berkowitz
- Recorded
- November 10, 1993
- Runtime
- 23:10
Content warning: Concerns the Son of Sam shootings, including the murder of Stacy Moskowitz, and a victim's mother addressing the killer.
The Interview
In 1993, after sixteen years of public silence, David Berkowitz gave a series of on-camera interviews at Sullivan Correctional Facility in upstate New York to Maury Terry, the journalist who had long argued that the Son of Sam did not act alone. Inside Edition broadcast the interviews over three nights beginning November 8, 1993. This recording is the third and final night, November 10, 1993, introduced by anchor Bill O'Reilly. In it Berkowitz says he was sometimes not the gunman, that a woman fired at least one of the shootings, that a Yonkers police officer was involved in the group, and that the Son of Sam letters were "a group thing". He also answers a videotaped message from the mother of Stacy Moskowitz and describes his conversion to Christianity.
Historical Context
Between July 1976 and July 1977 a gunman with a .44-caliber revolver shot young people in parked cars and on the streets of the Bronx, Queens and Brooklyn, killing six and wounding seven. Letters signed "Son of Sam" were sent to police and to the columnist Jimmy Breslin. Berkowitz, a postal worker from Yonkers, was arrested on August 10, 1977, after a parking ticket placed his car near the last shooting, in which Stacy Moskowitz was killed and Robert Violante badly wounded. He confessed to all the shootings, saying a demon speaking through his neighbour Sam Carr's dog had ordered them, pleaded guilty, and on June 12, 1978, was sentenced to 25 years to life for each of the six murders.
Circumstances of the Interview
Terry had published *The Ultimate Evil* in 1987, arguing that Berkowitz belonged to a Satanic group and that others, including Sam Carr's sons John and Michael, both by then dead, took part in the shootings. In this programme Terry presents the case for that view: the Brooklyn witness Tommy Zaino, who says he does not believe Berkowitz was the gunman; Cecelia Davis, who says she saw Berkowitz drive away after finding the parking ticket; and Neysa and Jerry Moskowitz, who say they have come to believe Berkowitz did not fire the shots that killed their daughter. Terry narrates the reports himself and, in O'Reilly's words, has "pressed him for details".
What the Interview Covers
Berkowitz says that at some shootings he had left the neighbourhood before the shots were fired, and that at the Moskowitz shooting he drove off after seeing his car had been ticketed. He agrees with Terry that the 1977 story of the talking dog was part of a "cover story", and that the name Son of Sam referred both to a demon he calls "Sam Hain" and to Sam Carr and his sons. Asked about the Carl Denaro shooting, he says a woman fired it; he is less sure about the killing of Virginia Voskerichian. He says he took the blame out of loyalty and guilt. He describes an attack in which another inmate cut his throat, his conversion (which the programme dates to 1988), and his prison ministry. Neysa Moskowitz tells him she hated him because his was the only name she knew, and asks him to name her daughter's killer. He apologises and prays for the victims but, the programme says, would not give a name, citing fears for his family.
What Makes the Recording Significant
The 1993 interviews ended what the press called Berkowitz's sixteen-year silence, and the programme said it was the first time he had claimed that he did not act alone. The Moskowitz exchange, in which a victim's mother addresses him directly, is unusual in the case's record. Six years later Berkowitz told Larry King that after this broadcast Mrs. Moskowitz had written him a long letter.
Archival Importance
The claims Berkowitz made to Terry have kept the question of accomplices open for three decades and were revisited in the 2021 Netflix series *The Sons of Sam: A Descent into Darkness*. This recording preserves those claims in the form in which the public first heard them, alongside the witnesses Terry relied on.
Important Caveats
Everything Berkowitz says here about accomplices, a female shooter and a police officer is his claim. Police have maintained that he acted alone, and no one else has been charged. Terry's narration presents the claims as strongly supported; that is the programme's view. The upload is an off-air copy with station promos and commercials; the uploader's title calls it "Pt 2", but it is the third night. One passage in which Berkowitz speaks of the victims ("none of whom I knew" or "one of whom I knew") is unclear and is not quoted.
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Announcer: Today, the stunning conclusion of our exclusive reports on the Son of Sam killings. The evidence mounts that David Berkowitz did not act alone, and now the mother of one of his victims speaks directly to Berkowitz. Inside Edition, straight ahead.
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Announcer: Today, more startling secrets revealed by David Berkowitz. The killer who terrorized New York City continues his exclusive interview.
Maury Terry: Were any of the .44 shootings done by females?
David Berkowitz: Uh, yes.
Maury Terry: Would that have been one shooting or two?
David Berkowitz: Uh, one I know of, possibly two.
Announcer: And he also talks about how he has been the victim of a savage attack.
David Berkowitz: Another inmate tried to take my life by, uh, cutting my throat with a prison-made razor weapon.
Unidentified Woman: He's just a sick maniac. He's an animal. And animals, like everything else, should be [unclear: "pink" / "C" (a word cut off)].
Announcer: Today, a victim's mother pleads with Berkowitz to tell her who murdered her daughter.
Neysa Moskowitz: I just want [unclear: "her killer" / "her to kill her"]. That's all I've ever, ever wanted.
Unidentified Voice: [Applause; music.] Two, one.
Bill O'Reilly: Hi, I'm Bill O'Reilly. Thanks for watching Inside Edition today. As the killer David Berkowitz sits behind bars, his words are causing many to look at the Son of Sam killings in a different light. Over the past two days Berkowitz has told Inside Edition that he did not act alone, that others were involved in the murders of six young people. And many believe him, including the mother of one of the victims. In our first report today, that mother confronts Berkowitz, and Maury Terry examines the terrible crime that haunts this woman.
Maury Terry: The killing of Stacy Moskowitz highlighted the emotion and tragedy of the Son of Sam case, fueled largely by the anger and pain of a grieving mother.
Neysa Moskowitz: And let him see those children's faces, and those blank eyes that don't stare, and those faces that can't smile anymore. Let him see that for the rest of his life. And I hope he lives a long time with this in his heart.
Maury Terry: The full force of Neysa Moskowitz's fury was vented directly at Berkowitz after his arrest, an arrest charging him with the killing of Stacy Moskowitz. Berkowitz now says that although he was present at all of the murders, he wasn't always the hit man.
Maury Terry: You mean before the shooting occurred?
David Berkowitz: Right.
Maury Terry: You would have been out of the neighborhood before the shooting occurred?
David Berkowitz: Sure.
Maury Terry: I see. So there were some instances you didn't even see them happen?
David Berkowitz: Right.
Maury Terry: He says a case in point was the murder of Stacy Moskowitz and the blinding of Robert Violante in the last Son of Sam attack, in Brooklyn. There is strong evidence to support his claim that he was not the gunman in this shooting. First, a young man named Tommy Zaino was parked directly in front of the victims and watched the attack in his rearview mirror. He described the gunman as having messy blond hair and a light gray shirt that was out of his trousers.
Tommy Zaino: Uh, he looked like he was in good shape, because after he fired the shots he took right off, back into the park, fast.
Maury Terry: Do you believe it was David Berkowitz who pulled the trigger that night?
Tommy Zaino: I didn't believe it was him then and I don't believe it's him now.
Maury Terry: Why?
Tommy Zaino: Because of his shape when he took off and ran. And then a week later, we seen David Berkowitz and what he looked like. I don't think he was physically capable of doing that.
Maury Terry: This is the sketch police drew from Zaino's description, but it was never released to the public, even though cops described Zaino as their best witness in all the Son of Sam shootings. And also there's the issue of the parking ticket, which Berkowitz received at the scene. According to the statement of Cecelia Davis, a resident in the neighborhood, Berkowitz could not have killed Moskowitz because of that citation.
Cecelia Davis: No, he couldn't, because I seen him taking off the ticket. He was still watching the police officers giving the rest of the cars tickets, and he followed the police officer. He could never go back to [unclear: "Blake Hunt" / "the blun"], because I seen him.
Maury Terry: Berkowitz now admits that Mrs. Davis was right.
David Berkowitz: Best as I recall, I, uh, drove away. There was a police car there, and I drove behind them and followed them for a while to see where they were going, and then they turned off somewhere, and, uh, I continued going.
Maury Terry: Your confession wasn't true. Did you in fact try to stop that shooting from occurring?
David Berkowitz: Sure.
Maury Terry: Could you tell me about that? Was this when you saw your car was ticketed?
David Berkowitz: Right, right, yeah. I just wanted to get out of there. I felt uncomfortable about the whole thing, and I felt that this was pointless. I was just sick of everything.
Maury Terry: But the parking ticket led cops to David Berkowitz. And ironically, although he later returned to the neighborhood, he says the real killer was in a yellow VW that was spotted speeding from the scene and was even chased through the streets of Brooklyn by a witness.
Neysa Moskowitz: But I had to hate somebody, and the only one I knew, the only name I got, was Berkowitz. So I had to hate David. I mean, I had to hate somebody.
Maury Terry: Over the years, both Neysa and Jerry Moskowitz have studied the evidence and come to believe that although Berkowitz was involved, he did not hold the gun that killed their daughter.
Moskowitz Parent: In my opinion, the New York Police Department covered it up, and the city covered it up. I don't know what the New York City police did. I still don't know what they did. But I feel the city did wrong. They never followed up the case. And I heard quotes from judges that this case would break wide open in New York, and when it does, there's going to be a lot of heads rolling.
Maury Terry: Now that David Berkowitz has finally spoken out, that day may be drawing closer. The Moskowitzes know that he holds the answers. And before my visit with them was over, Neysa Moskowitz watched what he had to say and made a personal plea to him. I would deliver that videotaped message to Berkowitz.
Neysa Moskowitz: I hated you because you were the only name I knew of, and I had to put my hate somewhere. You're not the same person I saw sixteen years ago. You talk differently, you act differently, and your mannerisms are... well, you're not the same person. I just want [unclear: "her killer" / "her to kill her"]. That's all I've ever, ever wanted. If I thought you were the one, then I wanted you. And since I understand that [unclear: "you are not the killer" / "you weren't the killer"], there's something in my power I wouldn't do to have you say his name.
Maury Terry: Do you have anything that you'd like to say to Mrs. Moskowitz, David?
David Berkowitz: I just want to say that I'm very sorry that all this happened, and my heart truly goes out to her, as well as all the other people, [unclear: "none of whom I knew" / "one of whom I knew"]. And I was just a fool to, uh, listen to the devil. And, uh, I wish I had, uh, sense enough to walk away from, uh, what I should have walked away from a long time ago. And I just pray for those that were hurt by the Son of Sam shootings, that, uh, God continues to heal their lives, and the survivors, that God continues to reach out and help those people. I pray for them, and in Christ's name I pray for them.
Maury Terry: Berkowitz was obviously moved by the message of Neysa Moskowitz, but he insisted he was unable to give up the name of Stacy's killer at this time, again citing fears for his own family's safety. Nevertheless, I believe that this case can finally be solved. Berkowitz has provided enough solid information to confirm what has been probed for years: that is, that he was not the lone Son of Sam killer. He has given up the names of accomplices who are no longer living, and has provided strong leads to the identities of those who are still out there. It is both heartbreaking and frustrating for Mrs. Moskowitz not to know more. And in our next segment, we will push Berkowitz to reveal more about his alleged cohorts.
Announcer: [Music.] Nobody else plays stuff like this.
Bill O'Reilly: By far the most controversial part of our interview with David Berkowitz is his assertion that he did not act alone, that members of a Satanic cult helped him. Never before has Berkowitz said that, and many are skeptical. But investigative journalist Maury Terry is one of those who believes Berkowitz, and for [unclear: "ten years" / "years"] has pressed him for details.
Maury Terry: It was a dreary fall morning when I returned to upstate New York for another on-camera session with David Berkowitz. Over the years, I investigated numerous possible accomplices of David Berkowitz. Among them were several women and a handful of former police officers. The Queens district attorney also suspected women and a cop may have been involved. Finally, I had the opportunity to ask David Berkowitz directly.
Maury Terry: Was there a present or former Yonkers police officer involved in this group in any way?
David Berkowitz: Yes, there was.
Maury Terry: Would that have been one former officer or more than one, or do you know?
David Berkowitz: Uh, I think just one, I know of.
Maury Terry: I know you don't like talking about the so-called Son of Sam letters, but I have one question. Would I be correct in saying that those letters were a group effort rather than the work of one individual?
David Berkowitz: Oh, yeah. Uh, yes, that was a group thing. Again, part of the role, or the goal, was to create an atmosphere of terror. You know, as [unclear: "into Satanism" / "to Satanism"], we felt that, you know, it was part of the thing, to create that atmosphere of a terror or fear, whatever.
Maury Terry: Were any of the .44 shootings done by females?
David Berkowitz: Yes.
Maury Terry: Would that have been one shooting or two?
David Berkowitz: Uh, one I know of, possibly two.
Maury Terry: Would that have been the Virginia Voskerichian shooting and/or the Carl Denaro shooting?
David Berkowitz: Uh, I know that, uh, Carl's, uh, was definitely a woman. And, uh, the other one I'm not quite sure about.
Maury Terry: Berkowitz was being evasive about the killing of Virginia Voskerichian, who was shot on a Queens street while walking home from school. I persisted, asking about a suspect spotted at the scene.
Maury Terry: That would have been the person with the ski cap, watch cap on, sweater?
David Berkowitz: Yeah.
Maury Terry: Would that have been a woman?
David Berkowitz: Yeah.
Maury Terry: Now, would that woman have been from New York or elsewhere?
David Berkowitz: Uh, I believe, uh, from elsewhere. I'm not exactly sure.
Maury Terry: You mean you didn't know the woman that well?
David Berkowitz: Well...
Maury Terry: Meaning, let's not talk about it. Yeah, it was time to change the subject. But Berkowitz had exposed one of the glaring contradictions in the Voskerichian murder. Two suspects were observed at that scene. This one was clearly Berkowitz. Yet in his confession to being the lone Son of Sam, he claimed to be this person in the ski cap, the shooter. It simply didn't make sense.
Maury Terry: Could you describe what role you played?
David Berkowitz: Well, I just, uh, like some of the others, just to walk around and be a lookout and everything.
Announcer: Berkowitz told Maury Terry off camera that he is still afraid, and he has a scar on his neck that proves he can be hurt in prison. He will tell us what happened, and why he is finally talking, coming next.
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David Berkowitz: There's a price to pay when you sell your soul to the devil. People fail to realize that the devil is going to come one day and say, uh, "Pardon me, but I'd like your soul right now."
Bill O'Reilly: So why is the Son of Sam killer finally talking after sixteen years? What does he have to gain from this? In our third report today, Berkowitz tells Maury Terry about his change of heart.
Maury Terry: After his arrest, and while New Yorkers called for his blood, Berkowitz told an incredible story to authorities.
Maury Terry: The confession about the, uh, the dog spoke and all of that, was that part of the cover story?
David Berkowitz: Yes, yes, it was. Yeah. But, you know, sadly, the psychiatrists or the psychologists, they're so blind. You know, I tried to explain to them what was happening, but they couldn't grasp it, who Sam really was. And I hate to talk about this, because people have made a joke about this for so very long, you know, the talking dog and everything, and Sam. But basically, I had given them the whole thing in a nutshell, and they never quite caught on: that the highest-ranking demon of the Druids is Sam Hain. S-A-M-H-A-I-N, that's how you say it, Sam Hain. And these people who died, the victims, sadly, were for him.
Maury Terry: So this worked two ways. You had Sam Hain, and you also had Sam Carr and his sons.
David Berkowitz: Yeah. Right, right, right.
Maury Terry: So would I be correct that the term Son of Sam, or actually Sons of Sam, worked on a couple of levels? Is that true?
David Berkowitz: Yes, that's true. Yeah, yeah.
Maury Terry: Why did you take the rap for all of these people?
David Berkowitz: [unclear: "But this time" / "At this time"] I had really sold myself out to our little group, and I was like a gung-ho soldier for them. And so I just was sticking loyal, you know, said, "Well, you know, I'm going to [unclear: "hang" / "hang, stand"], stand my ground." And for many years, for many years, I just kind of laid the path to myself. I had done that purposely. I also felt very guilty, too. I felt like, well, what the hell, you know, I, uh, I did shed innocent blood. I hurt people that didn't deserve to be hurt. And so what the hell if I take the rap for two or ten.
Maury Terry: David Berkowitz was just entering the second year of his life sentence when a would-be executioner came calling.
David Berkowitz: Another inmate tried to take my life by, uh, cutting my throat with a prison-made razor weapon.
Maury Terry: It took 56 stitches to close the wound, and Berkowitz wears a deep scar as a reminder of the vicious slashing.
David Berkowitz: I'm lucky to be alive.
Maury Terry: Is that the scar?
David Berkowitz: Yeah, that's the scar. Yeah. When I went down to the infirmary, uh, the doctor there who stitched me up said it was a miracle that I lived.
Maury Terry: He still doesn't like to talk about the attack, and he has never said who did it. Berkowitz says he fought the influence of Satanism until the late '80s, when he found God.
David Berkowitz: I don't think that, if I would, uh, if I would have still been out there, I probably would have died, just like the Carr brothers, just like others. If, uh, I didn't become a Christian, I may have, uh, died a long time ago. I truly believe that.
Maury Terry: Berkowitz had flirted with Christianity several times in his life, but he says his true conversion came in 1988, when a fellow inmate gave him a pocket Bible to read.
David Berkowitz: The words began to seem very, very real, you know. In other words, as if God were talking to me. You know, it says, uh, "This poor man cried, and the Lord heard him, and saved him out of all his troubles."
Maury Terry: And you saw yourself.
David Berkowitz: Yeah, and I saw myself, you know. And, uh, and he said, "I sought the Lord, and he heard me, and he delivered me from all my fears." And I was saying, you know, "Boy, you know, I made such a mess of my life. And does the Lord even hear me? Will he even pay attention to a sinner like me?" And, uh, but one day, and I even forget where it was, I was reading a passage of Scripture, and the words just touched my heart so much that I started to just kind of break down and cry.
Maury Terry: Don Dickerman is a minister from Hurst, Texas, who travels to prisons around the United States. He has seen the best and worst of Berkowitz.
Don Dickerman: When he was arrested and eventually went to prison, I wrote him a letter and basically said, "David, God still loves you, and, uh, Jesus can save you." Well, he wrote me right back and said, "When I get out of here, I'm going to kill you." I didn't write him a lot after that. But for whatever reason, God kept him on my heart over the years. And, uh, I was preaching in his prison, the Sullivan prison, a few years ago, when I met David personally. And at that time he had already accepted Christ, and there was an immediate bonding. And, uh, we're very close today.
Don Dickerman: Love you.
David Berkowitz: I love you too.
Maury Terry: Don, during the course of your ministry you have met hundreds of inmates who have said that they have been saved by Christ and come to Christianity. How would you gauge David Berkowitz's sincerity?
Don Dickerman: David's sincere. He's genuine. Uh, his reasons for being involved in this are all pure and they're proper. And I'm, uh, I'm proud of David's life today. As anyone, I'm sorry for all the victims that were involved, but I'm proud of what I've seen happen to David Berkowitz.
Don Dickerman: The Lord has brought us a long way.
David Berkowitz: Yes, he has.
Maury Terry: Dickerman says Berkowitz practices what he preaches, teaching a Bible class and volunteering to work with emotionally troubled inmates.
David Berkowitz: They need some help. They need [unclear: "guys to" (captions only)], someone to talk to, someone to help them make their bed and get them dressed and so forth, someone to be a friend and, uh, listen to them when they have their problems.
Maury Terry: Berkowitz now spends his time in jail writing letters.
David Berkowitz: I write to those people. We, my friend and I, uh, my friend who lives down south, uh, her name is Alice, we, uh, get Bibles together to send them overseas, uh, Christian literature, and we really have some good relationships with those people.
Maury Terry: Berkowitz says that his faith has made his life behind bars more bearable.
David Berkowitz: When I first started out in my prison sentence, of doing so many consecutive life sentences totaling more than 300 years, there's no legal possibility of any type of, uh, parole or anything. So I know that I'm in prison for the rest of my natural life. And, uh, only through my faith in Christ, it kept me from, like, losing my mind or just giving up in despair.
Maury Terry: Berkowitz says that his faith also helps him deal with the guilt of his crimes.
Maury Terry: Do you feel the pain day by day for the victims and the [unclear: "innocent who died" / "innocent for Don"]?
David Berkowitz: Yeah, yeah, yeah, sure. I can't imagine the hardship that they go through, the ones that are left behind, even some of the ones that were wounded. Some got hurt pretty bad, and just, there's nothing I can do. I pray for them. I pray for them.
Bill O'Reilly: Well, as we have said, the Son of Sam murder case remains open. Police say they will examine any and all new evidence. Our investigation will also continue, and we will keep you posted in the weeks to come. And Inside Edition will be right back.
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