"At Least I'm Going to Die Trying": Tracy Edwards Testifies at Jeffrey Dahmer's Trial, 1992
Court TV footage from Jeffrey Dahmer's 1992 sanity trial in Milwaukee: Tracy Edwards, who escaped from Dahmer's apartment on July 22, 1991, and flagged down the police, describes that evening under questioning by the defense.
- Subject
- Jeffrey Dahmer
- Recorded
- January 30, 1992
- Runtime
- 31:56
Content warning: A survivor describes being held at knifepoint and in handcuffs for hours, threats to kill him and to eat his heart, and the apartment where Dahmer killed his victims. The lawyer's questions touch on the witness's sexuality and on whether he was sexually approached (he testifies that he was not).
The Interview
This is not an interview, and Jeffrey Dahmer does not speak in it. It is unnarrated Court TV footage from Dahmer's 1992 sanity trial in Milwaukee. Tracy Edwards, then 32 and living in Louisiana, is sworn, points out Dahmer in the courtroom, and answers about 30 minutes of questions about the evening of July 22, 1991. The examining lawyer says Edwards came to Wisconsin "at my request" and that Dahmer is seated between "my two associates", so Edwards was called by the defense; the lawyer is identified as Gerald Boyle, Dahmer's lead attorney, by inference. The clip ends as the court recesses before cross-examination by District Attorney E. Michael McCann.
Historical Context
Late on July 22, 1991, Edwards ran from Dahmer's apartment, number 213 in the Oxford Apartments on North 25th Street, with a handcuff on one wrist. At about 11:30 p.m. he flagged down Milwaukee patrol officers Robert Rauth and Rolf Mueller, who went back with him to the apartment. What they found there led to Dahmer's arrest that night and to the discovery of his crimes. Dahmer was not charged with the attempted murder of Edwards.
Circumstances
Dahmer pleaded guilty but insane, and the trial that began on January 30, 1992, decided only whether he was legally insane. The defense used Edwards' account to describe Dahmer's state of mind that night. Edwards says on the stand that he met defense counsel for the first time the evening before, that he came with his own attorney, and that he was paid only his expenses.
What the Recording Covers
Edwards testifies that Dahmer approached him and two friends at the Grand Avenue Mall, said he was a professional photographer, and offered $100 for nude photographs, and that he went with Dahmer by cab to 25th or 26th and Wisconsin and through the alleys to the apartment. He describes a foul odor that Dahmer blamed on a broken sewer pipe, boxes of muriatic acid that Dahmer said were for cleaning bricks, and a fish tank. He says that while he looked at the fish, Dahmer handcuffed his left wrist and held a large knife to his ribs, threatening to kill him, and that in the bedroom there was a 50 to 60 gallon drum and an Exorcist film playing on a VCR. Edwards says Dahmer rocked and chanted, seemed to change into "a totally different guy", said he did not want people to leave him, laid his head on Edwards' chest and said he was going to eat his heart, and said one of them would have to kill the other. Edwards testifies that Dahmer did not touch him sexually or ask for sex. He describes calming Dahmer for hours, then, when Dahmer seemed to pay him no attention, hitting him and running out to find the police. All of this is Edwards' sworn account.
What Makes the Recording Significant
Edwards' escape ended Dahmer's killings. This is his own account, given under oath in Dahmer's presence about six months later, and it is the testimony of the man whose escape from apartment 213 brought the police there.
Archival Importance
The footage is unnarrated and continuous from the oath to the recess, so the direct examination survives as it was given in court. It is also a record of how the defense presented its insanity case: the lawyer repeatedly asks Edwards what impression Dahmer's "conduct, action, manner, expression and conversation" made on him.
Important Caveats
Dahmer is not heard. The date, January 31, 1992, is not stated on the tape; it comes from news reports published the next day. The identification of the examining lawyer as Gerald Boyle is an inference from his words on tape. The cross-examination is not in this clip, so Edwards' account is not tested here. Everything Edwards says about Dahmer's words and actions is his testimony, not independently verified.
Clerk: [unclear: "Do you solemnly swear the" (probable) / "This time is where I'll test" / "pleas where our"] testimony you're about to give in this matter [unclear: "be" / "will be"] the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you [unclear: "God" (probable) / "back" / "that"]? Please be seated. Then, sir, would you tell us your name, and spell your last name for us.
Tracy Edwards: Tracy Edwards, E-D-W-A-R-D-S.
Gerald Boyle: Mr. Edwards, we're going to ask you to speak up very loudly into the microphone. I would like to know in what state do you reside at the present time.
Tracy Edwards: Louisiana.
Gerald Boyle: And how old are you, sir?
Tracy Edwards: Thirty-two.
Gerald Boyle: Thirty-two, and you are single?
Tracy Edwards: Yes.
Gerald Boyle: And you were in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, on July the 22nd, 1991?
Tracy Edwards: Yes.
Gerald Boyle: And at or about that time, on that late afternoon, did you have occasion to see a person that you knew at that time, or subsequently learned, was a fellow by the name of Jeffrey Dahmer?
Tracy Edwards: Yes.
Gerald Boyle: And you know that Mr. Dahmer you're speaking about is the defendant in this case, to my right, correct?
Tracy Edwards: Yes.
Gerald Boyle: And that, let me make a record, [unclear: "I show" / "that showed"] the identification. Sir, would you indicate where Mr. Dahmer is seated in the courtroom?
Tracy Edwards: It's over there.
Gerald Boyle: Right in the middle, between my two associates?
Tracy Edwards: Yeah.
Gerald Boyle: Is that right?
Tracy Edwards: That's right.
Judge Laurence Gram Jr.: Record should reflect the defendant's been identified.
Gerald Boyle: Now, Mr. Edwards, you and I met for the first time last evening.
Tracy Edwards: Yes.
Gerald Boyle: And you came up from Louisiana at my request, but with your attorney?
Tracy Edwards: Right.
Gerald Boyle: Mr. [unclear: attorney's name, spelled out: "Said, S-Y-E-D, Selette, S-A-L-E-T" (Whisper) / "S, S-Y-E-D, Selet, S-A-L-T" (captions); not verified].
Tracy Edwards: That's correct.
Gerald Boyle: And you came up here to testify to the events, as you recall them, that occurred on the late afternoon, early evening, early morning hours of July the 22nd and the morning of July the 23rd, 1991.
Tracy Edwards: That's correct.
Gerald Boyle: So that you know, Mr. Edwards, your name is known to the jury, because there has been testimony concerning what happened to you, and at the apartment of Mr. Dahmer. Do you understand?
Tracy Edwards: [unclear: "That's correct" / "Sure"].
Gerald Boyle: Okay?
Tracy Edwards: Okay.
Gerald Boyle: Did you know Mr. Dahmer by name prior to that date?
Tracy Edwards: I seen him a couple of times before then. I didn't know his name personally.
Gerald Boyle: All right. Did you ever talk to him before that date?
Tracy Edwards: Speaking to him, saying hello as he passed by. Just casual, friendly.
Gerald Boyle: Casual?
Tracy Edwards: Yeah, friendly.
Gerald Boyle: Hellos?
Tracy Edwards: Hellos, yeah.
Gerald Boyle: Where was it that you saw him in the late afternoon, early morning hours of July the 22nd?
Tracy Edwards: Grand Avenue Mall.
Gerald Boyle: And that was in Milwaukee?
Tracy Edwards: Correct.
Gerald Boyle: Downtown on Wisconsin?
Tracy Edwards: Wisconsin, correct.
Gerald Boyle: Were you with somebody, or were you alone?
Tracy Edwards: A couple of our friends, yeah.
Gerald Boyle: Okay. So the record is absolutely clear, you are not a homosexual, are you?
Tracy Edwards: No, not at all.
Gerald Boyle: Okay. So you were with a couple of your buddies, were you?
Tracy Edwards: That's correct.
Gerald Boyle: And what were you doing?
Tracy Edwards: We was drinking beer, just talking, hanging out, you know.
Gerald Boyle: About six o'clock at night, was this?
Tracy Edwards: Yeah, about six, 6:15, whatever.
Gerald Boyle: Did you have occasion then to see Mr. Dahmer?
Tracy Edwards: Yeah, he approached us eventually and started talking to us, yeah.
Gerald Boyle: Were you three Black males?
Tracy Edwards: Yeah, one, one white, two Black male.
Gerald Boyle: [unclear: "So your friend" / "So you're friends"]?
Tracy Edwards: Yeah, my best friend was white, yeah.
Gerald Boyle: When he came up and started talking to you, what is it that Mr. Dahmer said to you?
Tracy Edwards: He said he was just in the city from Chicago. He was taking care of his sick grandmother, I believe, in West Allis.
Gerald Boyle: And did he have any further conversation with you and your friends?
Tracy Edwards: Yeah, he was just talking. He said he was a professional photographer. He usually pays peoples for pictures and stuff like that, if anybody was interested in making money at that time.
Gerald Boyle: To, to have to pose for pictures?
Tracy Edwards: Yeah.
Gerald Boyle: Did he describe the kind of pictures that you were going to be posing for, if you chose to take him up on the offer?
Tracy Edwards: He said nude.
Gerald Boyle: Nude. Right. Now, after he said that to you, what did you and your friends do?
Tracy Edwards: They were just talking, discussing it, you know, seeing what was going on, you know.
Gerald Boyle: And what did you end up doing? Did you remain at Grand Avenue, or did you go somewhere else?
Tracy Edwards: We proceeded from there. He said he was going to buy [unclear: "all us guys" / "all those guys" / "all his guys"] beer, rum and Coke, you know, watch videos or something like that.
Gerald Boyle: Rum and Coke, did you say?
Tracy Edwards: Yeah. We, we went to the liquor store in Wisconsin Avenue, 7th and Wisconsin Avenue.
Gerald Boyle: So you walked from Grand Avenue down to 7th and Wisconsin?
Tracy Edwards: Yeah, up, so to speak, yeah, between 5th and 6th, something like that. I'm not really sure.
Gerald Boyle: The general area of 6th or 7th and Wisconsin. Was it going to be the three of you and Mr. Dahmer were going to stay together, or was it agreed upon that one or others of you were going to go with Mr. Dahmer? Or was there no agreement?
Tracy Edwards: They were going to meet up with us eventually, later on that evening.
Gerald Boyle: Meet up with who?
Tracy Edwards: Jeffrey, at his apartment, but he gave them the wrong address at that time.
Gerald Boyle: Okay. So did you, the three of you, you and your two friends and Mr. Dahmer, walk down to a liquor store? And what happened when you got to the liquor store?
Tracy Edwards: I saw my brother. We start talking. At this time Jeff was talking to my other friends.
Gerald Boyle: So you say you saw your brother. He wasn't one of the three that you were with?
Tracy Edwards: No.
Gerald Boyle: But you saw him on the street?
Tracy Edwards: Yeah.
Gerald Boyle: Okay. So you had conversation?
Tracy Edwards: Right.
Gerald Boyle: Okay. Did, did anyone go into a liquor store and buy anything?
Tracy Edwards: Mr. Dahmer brought liquor, yeah.
Gerald Boyle: So he went into a liquor store?
Tracy Edwards: Right.
Gerald Boyle: And when he came out, who was still there?
Tracy Edwards: Okay, when he came out, oh, we were all still there.
Gerald Boyle: And then what happened? Tell us what happened then.
Tracy Edwards: Okay, he was talking to them. Then we're going to go up the street. I was going to go home and change and everything at this time. So we proceeded, we caught a cab at the bus station, you know.
Gerald Boyle: Now, what was your plan, as you were in front of that liquor store, after Mr. Dahmer came out with the liquor and you had been talking to your brother? What was your plan, what were you going to do? You said you were going to go home and change clothes?
Tracy Edwards: Yeah, and eventually I was going to go over there, you know, and maybe check out what he was talking about, about making the money at that time.
Gerald Boyle: So your interest was in making some money?
Tracy Edwards: Right.
Gerald Boyle: Did he tell you how much you would be paid if you did pose for him?
Tracy Edwards: He said $100 for...
Gerald Boyle: You had no idea, did you, that this was for any homosexual...
Tracy Edwards: No, he didn't come across like that, and he didn't even act like it at that time.
Gerald Boyle: Okay. Okay, so now your friends are still there, and you're going to go home, and you order a cab for the, for, for the, over at the bus depot. What happens? Tell us what happens.
Tracy Edwards: Okay, and then we go, we, [unclear: "me and" / "and I'm or"] my friends said they're going to go and change and call up the girls, and we'll meet up later on, you know.
Gerald Boyle: Was there an address given as to where you were going?
Tracy Edwards: He gave them some address that wasn't correct.
Gerald Boyle: You later found that out?
Tracy Edwards: Right, from my friends, yeah.
Gerald Boyle: What happened then? Who else remained there when this was all transpired? Just you and Mr. Dahmer, or you, Mr. Dahmer and others?
Tracy Edwards: After it all had transpired, it was me and Mr. Dahmer in the cab, you know, leaving.
Gerald Boyle: You met up at about quarter of six, six o'clock, 6:15. What time is it now?
Tracy Edwards: At this time it's maybe 6:30, as we get to 25th and, uh, 26th and Wisconsin.
Gerald Boyle: So you stop at 26th and Wisconsin, and what happens there?
Tracy Edwards: Okay, we'll get out the cab then, and then he suggested he go to the store and get cigarettes before he went to his apartment.
Gerald Boyle: And after, after he did that, did you go to his apartment?
Tracy Edwards: Yeah.
Gerald Boyle: What route?
Tracy Edwards: Through the alleys, through the back way. We...
Gerald Boyle: Was there any discussion as to why you were taking that route?
Tracy Edwards: Said it was safer, people wouldn't bother us, or whatever.
Gerald Boyle: At the time that you were walking with him towards his apartment, what was your plans on doing when you got to the apartment?
Tracy Edwards: Really, drinking the beer. I wasn't really sure if I was going to pose or not, you know.
Gerald Boyle: Yeah. If you weren't really sure at that point, you at least were contemplating maybe you would?
Tracy Edwards: Yeah, I was going to make up my mind once I got there, whatever, you know.
Gerald Boyle: Were you in need of money?
Tracy Edwards: Yeah, I just started working, and the offer sounded good at that time.
Gerald Boyle: Okay. Now, when you got to his apartment, how was he acting? Tell us about his, uh, tell me about his demeanor. You know what I mean by that, Mr. Edwards? How was he acting?
Tracy Edwards: Just like a normal, everyday person, you know. Friendly, good conversationalist. He was talking about the military, things of that nature, yeah.
Gerald Boyle: Had you been in the military?
Tracy Edwards: My father retired in the Air Force, so I've been to several different bases. I was born on an Air Force, Army base in Fort Carson.
Gerald Boyle: That's the kind of thing you were talking to?
Tracy Edwards: It's like a family thing, you know, so I know a lot about it.
Gerald Boyle: Had he been drinking alcohol?
Tracy Edwards: Yeah, I consumed some. He was drinking beer at the time, when I first...
Gerald Boyle: Well, the time that you were, like, going to his apartment, was he intoxicated?
Tracy Edwards: No, no.
Gerald Boyle: Had he been drinking?
Tracy Edwards: Yeah, [unclear: "he'd" / "I'd" / "I've"] been drinking a couple of beers.
Gerald Boyle: How about you? Were you intoxicated?
Tracy Edwards: No, not at all.
Gerald Boyle: Had you had something to drink?
Tracy Edwards: I sipped maybe a little beer, my friend's beer. That was it.
Gerald Boyle: All right. Now, you get to the apartment. Do you go in the back way?
Tracy Edwards: Yes, correct.
Gerald Boyle: You went up to the apartment. Tell us what happens when you get up to the apartment. Tell us what you observed, what your senses told you.
Tracy Edwards: Okay. First of all, it seemed like a normal apartment. When we got inside, he turned off burglar alarms, [unclear: "I asked him why" / "ax and why" / "ask and why"]. First, it was a foul odor.
Gerald Boyle: Okay, tell us about that. What kind of an odor?
Tracy Edwards: It was just like an odor. I didn't quite know what it was, you know. He told me a sewer pipe had broke, and management would take care of it, yeah.
Gerald Boyle: And did you accept that?
Tracy Edwards: Yes, 'cause I worked around, at construction companies before, and when pipes bust, sewer pipes bust, they smell, you know. So I [unclear: "bought" / "brought"] that.
Gerald Boyle: So you say he, you, your first thing you did was notice the odor. He opened the door to the apartment?
Tracy Edwards: Yes.
Gerald Boyle: And you walked in?
Tracy Edwards: Yes.
Gerald Boyle: He turned off something. What did he turn off?
Tracy Edwards: Alarms.
Gerald Boyle: Did you ask him about that?
Tracy Edwards: Yeah, and he said the part of the neighborhood he was in, he was protecting his property, things like that. Cameras, VCRs, TVs, things of that nature.
Gerald Boyle: Did you accept that?
Tracy Edwards: Yes, I did.
Gerald Boyle: After getting in the apartment, can you generally describe the apartment, both the apartment that you saw then and the apartment that you, the other parts of the apartment you saw? Tell, tell the jury what the apartment was like.
Tracy Edwards: It was like normal, pretty decent apartment. Had nice things in it, you know. It had certain boxes sitting on the front, muriatic acid boxes. I asked him about it. He said he cleaned bricks with those, you know, which you can use that type of acid to clean bricks, so I [unclear: "bought" / "brought"] that also.
Gerald Boyle: I'm sorry, I didn't understand what you just said. He, you asked him about some boxes?
Tracy Edwards: Yeah, that were laying in the front living room floor.
Gerald Boyle: And what did he tell you about those?
Tracy Edwards: That he cleaned brick with the muriatic acid.
Gerald Boyle: Okay. Now, was the apartment small, large, medium? What, give us a size.
Tracy Edwards: Kind of medium size, yeah.
Gerald Boyle: Right. Now, did you, when you went in there, you went in, as you entered, were you in the living room?
Tracy Edwards: Yes.
Gerald Boyle: And where did, what was the living room? What did you see in there? The boxes you told us about?
Tracy Edwards: The boxes, is a couch, there's a fish tank there also, a black lamp, yeah. There was a little table like on the left side.
Gerald Boyle: Could you see a refrigerator?
Tracy Edwards: Yeah, I could see the refrigerator on my left.
Gerald Boyle: Was it, was it close to the living room?
Tracy Edwards: Yeah, maybe eight feet from the living room.
Gerald Boyle: So it's just off the living room?
Tracy Edwards: Right.
Gerald Boyle: Now, did you stay in that room, or did you go to another room right away?
Tracy Edwards: We stayed in that room for a while.
Gerald Boyle: And where did you sit, if you did?
Tracy Edwards: Okay, at the end of the sofa. Like I am now, this is a sofa, I was at this end, and he was at this side.
Gerald Boyle: Referring to the jury, I mean, the witness box, if that were a sofa, he would be at that end, that is the end where he's seated on the witness stand, which would be the part closest to the judge. Is that right?
Tracy Edwards: That's correct.
Gerald Boyle: And where did Mr. Dahmer, what did he do?
Tracy Edwards: He sat like here, maybe a couple of feet from me.
Gerald Boyle: Close to you?
Tracy Edwards: Maybe two feet.
Gerald Boyle: You in fear of anything at that time?
Tracy Edwards: Not at all.
Gerald Boyle: Okay. And what did the two of you do?
Tracy Edwards: Okay, he said, we were still talking, chatting, you know. He asked me was I interested in doing the photography, you know. I told him I would, I was still contemplating, so therefore he offered me a beer and a rum and Coke mixture at that point.
Gerald Boyle: Now, you're fully clothed?
Tracy Edwards: Yes.
Gerald Boyle: Okay. And you're sitting on a couch?
Tracy Edwards: Right.
Gerald Boyle: And he offers, he talks to you about this posy, and you weren't sure you were going to do it?
Tracy Edwards: Right.
Gerald Boyle: How much had you been offered to do the posy?
Tracy Edwards: $100.
Gerald Boyle: Okay. And when he brings you the beer, he brings you rum and Coke?
Tracy Edwards: Yeah, he bring that. Yeah, he brings the beer first, and then he brings the rum and Coke.
Gerald Boyle: How big of a glass?
Tracy Edwards: Maybe that big.
Gerald Boyle: About four inches high?
Tracy Edwards: About four inches, yeah, three and a half, something like that.
Gerald Boyle: Did you ever taste it?
Tracy Edwards: Yeah, took a few sips.
Gerald Boyle: Was it strong, weak, medium, or just about right?
Tracy Edwards: I'm not a big liquor drinker, so it didn't taste that good to me. I don't...
Gerald Boyle: Didn't taste good to you. You don't know if it was strong or not?
Tracy Edwards: Strong or not, no, 'cause I'm...
Gerald Boyle: What did Mr. Dahmer do? Did he likewise have a drink?
Tracy Edwards: I think, yeah, right, a beer. But I don't think he drank all of his drink at that time.
Gerald Boyle: Did he have any rum with him?
Tracy Edwards: I just noticed a beer.
Gerald Boyle: Right. What time are we talking about now, that you're sitting on the couch and you get the beer? You got over there about what time, and how long after this?
Tracy Edwards: It was before seven, quarter to seven, something like that.
Gerald Boyle: So you're sitting on the couch, he brings you a beer and rum and Coke. What happens?
Tracy Edwards: Okay, then we just [unclear: "steady" / "study"] talking and everything, you know.
Gerald Boyle: General talk?
Tracy Edwards: General talk.
Gerald Boyle: What happens?
Tracy Edwards: Yeah, then I was just, I don't know, getting a little agitated, maybe, you know, 'cause of the smell and things. And then he threw my conversation off, talking about the fish in the fish tank, you know.
Gerald Boyle: Okay. When you start talking about the fish in the fish tank, do you bring that up, or does he?
Tracy Edwards: He does.
Gerald Boyle: And what do you do when he does that?
Tracy Edwards: I turn, I turn to the right. Like, the fish tank is here, I'm turning all the way over here.
Gerald Boyle: You turn to your right to look at it?
Tracy Edwards: To look at the fish tank, right.
Gerald Boyle: And when that happens, what happens to you?
Tracy Edwards: All of a sudden, a handcuff and a knife is pulled on me, yeah.
Gerald Boyle: Handcuff is placed on your body? Where?
Tracy Edwards: On my left wrist.
Gerald Boyle: And you see a knife?
Tracy Edwards: Yeah, the knife, yeah.
Gerald Boyle: Now, at that moment, what do you do?
Tracy Edwards: First, I feel fear. Then I ask him what's going on, you know, this is not necessary, you know, to pull a knife on me at that moment.
Gerald Boyle: Are you afraid?
Tracy Edwards: Yes.
Gerald Boyle: Do you have any reason to know why he did that?
Tracy Edwards: None whatsoever.
Gerald Boyle: Did you have any idea at that time it was going to happen?
Tracy Edwards: No.
Gerald Boyle: Tell me about his demeanor at that time, when you looked and realized he had a knife, and you, and a cuff. Were you only cuffed on one wrist?
Tracy Edwards: One wrist, yeah.
Gerald Boyle: What was happening to the other part of the handcuff?
Tracy Edwards: Okay, he had it in his hand.
Gerald Boyle: He was holding it?
Tracy Edwards: Holding that in the wrist, yeah.
Gerald Boyle: Where was the knife, in the other hand?
Tracy Edwards: The knife was like, he had, here, the knife was in this hand. He had it on me like this.
Gerald Boyle: Let the record reflect he was holding the knife in his right hand as he showed it, holding the cuff in his left hand. Is that right?
Tracy Edwards: Right.
Gerald Boyle: And your left hand is cuffed?
Tracy Edwards: Yeah, right.
Gerald Boyle: Where did he have the knife? What kind of a knife was it?
Tracy Edwards: It was like a military knife, a machete of some type, [unclear: "P Lord" (captions; not resolved)], right up under my rib cage, you know, the back, somewhere in the back here.
Gerald Boyle: He had it pointed at your rib cage?
Tracy Edwards: Yeah.
Gerald Boyle: Did you feel it touching?
Tracy Edwards: He, he had it on me. He had it against my body.
Gerald Boyle: What happened, what was going through your mind the moment that happened, when you realized you had a knife at your side and a handcuff on your hand? What did you think?
Tracy Edwards: I think, like, you know, what's going on, you know? This guy is so nice, and all of a sudden, you know, it's like he was pulling knives and handcuffs and all on me, you know.
Gerald Boyle: What'd you do? What'd you say to him?
Tracy Edwards: I asked him what the problem was, you know, that it's not necessary to do this, you know.
Gerald Boyle: What'd he say?
Tracy Edwards: He told me at that point, if I wouldn't do what he said, he would kill me, you know.
Gerald Boyle: Now, tell us about his demeanor at the time that you look at him and you say, "What's going on? You don't have to do this." What happens to Mr. Dahmer? What's he like?
Tracy Edwards: It's like not the same person that we met at Grand Avenue Mall.
Gerald Boyle: How does he differ?
Tracy Edwards: His face structure seemed different, you know. His body structure, it's like it wasn't him anymore, you know. It's like it was a totally different guy there.
Gerald Boyle: So he told you, if you didn't do what he told you to do, he'd hurt you?
Tracy Edwards: He'd hurt me.
Gerald Boyle: What'd you do? What happened? Tell us what happened, step by step, as best you can remember.
Tracy Edwards: And then all of a sudden he kind of calms down, you know. And then he said he has a key in the bedroom, so we proceed to the bedroom.
Gerald Boyle: The key to the handcuffs?
Tracy Edwards: Right.
Gerald Boyle: You believed he was going to take them off?
Tracy Edwards: Yeah, at that point I had to go along with this guy, you know, and then if I had to find out. So I walked back there with him. He kind of guides me back there, you know.
Gerald Boyle: Guides you back with the cuff and the knife?
Tracy Edwards: Yeah, right.
Gerald Boyle: And you go into the bedroom?
Tracy Edwards: Right.
Gerald Boyle: What do you see in the bedroom?
Tracy Edwards: A big, about 50, 60 gallon drum barrel, whatever.
Gerald Boyle: Do you ever see a 50, 60 drum barrel in anybody's bedroom before?
Tracy Edwards: Not at all.
Gerald Boyle: Do you have any idea? Do you ask him what it was?
Tracy Edwards: No. At that point I asked no questions at that time.
Gerald Boyle: Was there a bed in that room?
Tracy Edwards: Yes.
Gerald Boyle: How was the bed? Was it made, unmade? What did...
Tracy Edwards: It was unmade.
Gerald Boyle: What did you see on the bed, if anything?
Tracy Edwards: Something like a stain or whatever on the bed.
Gerald Boyle: What did you think it was?
Tracy Edwards: At that point in time, I wasn't sure.
Gerald Boyle: What did you do when you got in the bedroom, as he's holding on to the cuff and the knife? What did you do?
Tracy Edwards: [unclear: "Steady, just talking" / "Studying, just talking" / "Studied us talking"], trying to be friends with him, you know.
Gerald Boyle: Did you remain standing? Did you sit down, or...
Tracy Edwards: He made me sit down at that point. We both sit on the bed.
Gerald Boyle: Was it at the foot of the bed, side of the bed, head of the bed?
Tracy Edwards: Maybe halfway between.
Gerald Boyle: Did that room have a TV set in it?
Tracy Edwards: Yes.
Gerald Boyle: Was there anything going on on the TV?
Tracy Edwards: Yeah, The Exorcist movies was playing at that time.
Gerald Boyle: There was an Exorcist movie on?
Tracy Edwards: Yeah.
Gerald Boyle: You know which one of them?
Tracy Edwards: The name, I'm not sure. I think it's three. I'm not sure which one.
Gerald Boyle: So there was a movie. Did you know it to be part of television, or VCR?
Tracy Edwards: VCR. Normally that's not on regular television, so I thought it was VCR.
Gerald Boyle: You knew there was a movie showing?
Tracy Edwards: Right.
Gerald Boyle: Did you see him put it on, or was it on?
Tracy Edwards: No. When we first got into the apartment, he went through the back, to the back bedroom. Maybe he put it on then, I'm not sure.
Gerald Boyle: Okay. And then what happened? You're both sitting on the bed?
Tracy Edwards: Yes.
Gerald Boyle: Are you still in handcuffs?
Tracy Edwards: Yes.
Gerald Boyle: Is he holding the handcuff?
Tracy Edwards: Right.
Gerald Boyle: Does he still have the knife?
Tracy Edwards: Right.
Gerald Boyle: Is it pointed at your side, as you've told us before?
Tracy Edwards: Right.
Gerald Boyle: You trying to be cool?
Tracy Edwards: Very much so.
Gerald Boyle: You're not, you're not fighting with him?
Tracy Edwards: No.
Gerald Boyle: What's your intention? What are you planning on doing?
Tracy Edwards: Getting away. I was contemplating on, at a point, jumping out the window. Yep. I was basically talking with this person, trying to let him know I was his friend.
Gerald Boyle: Yeah. As you were sitting there on the bed, when he had you by the handcuff and a knife at your side, at that time, which would have been maybe seven o'clock?
Tracy Edwards: Something like that.
Gerald Boyle: What impression was made upon your mind by the conduct, action, manner, expression and conversation that you observed of Mr. Dahmer?
Tracy Edwards: His frame of mind is what you want to know, right? Okay. He acted, at times he would go through, like, different changes with me, you know.
Gerald Boyle: Tell us about that.
Tracy Edwards: One minute he's like nice, then he was telling he didn't want people to leave him or abandon him, things of this nature, you know, yeah.
Gerald Boyle: What did you think about him as a person? What impression was made on your mind of this fellow that you're dealing with here?
Tracy Edwards: Yeah, that at times he wasn't himself, and then at times he was like a nice guy, you know. He would come and go different times, you know, throughout the whole time. Then he would like sit, being quiet at times, watching the movie, wanting me to watch the movie, you know, and just doing little [unclear: "chanting" / "tanning"] sounds, you know.
Gerald Boyle: Did you observe him watching the movie, and how he would react to the movie?
Tracy Edwards: Right. He would like just start rocking back and forth when he, you know, certain parts of the movie or whatever.
Gerald Boyle: [unclear: "And you have to, what did he say" / "You have to say, what did he say"]?
Tracy Edwards: [unclear: "Man" / "Mad"], it was like chanting at certain times, and rocking back and forth.
Gerald Boyle: Right. Tell us about his chanting. What was that all about?
Tracy Edwards: I'm not even sure, sir, but it was just like, I can't tell you the words. I couldn't understand what he was saying at that time.
Gerald Boyle: Can you mimic him, how it sounded?
Tracy Edwards: It was like a slow slur, like, mmm, something of that nature, something close like that. I'm not sure.
Gerald Boyle: Did it keep on for a period of time?
Tracy Edwards: Off and on throughout the ordeal.
Gerald Boyle: And how about the, the movement back and forth? How, how was that being effectuated?
Tracy Edwards: Just like back and forth. He would do it every now and then, you know.
Gerald Boyle: Just as you are rocking in your chair?
Tracy Edwards: Right, like this.
Gerald Boyle: And chanting?
Tracy Edwards: And chanting.
Gerald Boyle: Was there any parts of the movie that was going on that you saw that he said anything about?
Tracy Edwards: It was like the part about the preacher, that used to be a preacher that had got possessed. And that, uh, that, uh, it would seem like he was like interested in that part. That part had his attention more than anything, you know.
Gerald Boyle: Tell us about what you mean by that. What impressions were made upon your mind, when this was going on, as to had his attention? How would he, how did he appear to you?
Tracy Edwards: It appear like, like it was like he wanted to mimic it, or be like that part, you know, being demonized or whatever in that nature.
Gerald Boyle: I'm, I'm sorry, I missed...
Tracy Edwards: He like, he wanted that, that type of movie, that part, certain parts of that part interested him, you know. It was like he changed with it at times. Then he would get more aggressive, try to get me to handcuff myself, both hands, and he's told me it made him feel more dominant at that time.
Gerald Boyle: Okay. Did you and he move off of the bed at any time?
Tracy Edwards: Yes. He wanted me to lay flat down, stomach down on the floor, at that time.
Gerald Boyle: Did you at any time go to the bathroom, use the washroom, prior to the time that he asked you to lay down on the floor?
Tracy Edwards: No.
Gerald Boyle: All right. Tell us what happened when, how did that happen, that he told you to lay down on the floor?
Tracy Edwards: No, he told me to lay down, face down, put both of my hands behind my back, 'cause he got, he changed again at that point, like he got more aggressive at that time.
Gerald Boyle: Okay. Now, but tell us, tell us, did he still have the knife out?
Tracy Edwards: Yes, he still had the knife out.
Gerald Boyle: And what did you do?
Tracy Edwards: Okay, I kind of like laid on my sides. For some reason, I guess God told me not to lay flat down or let this person handcuff me, so I didn't.
Gerald Boyle: So you were trying to stop that from happening, but you got down on the floor?
Tracy Edwards: Right.
Gerald Boyle: What did he do?
Tracy Edwards: He kind of laid across me, put his head across my chest at that point.
Gerald Boyle: What was he doing with his head?
Tracy Edwards: Pardon me?
Gerald Boyle: What did it appear to you he was doing with his head? What was he trying to do?
Tracy Edwards: Like he was listening to my heart, 'cause at a point he told me he was going to eat my heart, at that point.
Gerald Boyle: He said he was going to eat your heart?
Tracy Edwards: Yes, that's correct.
Gerald Boyle: Did he still have the knife?
Tracy Edwards: Yeah.
Gerald Boyle: Where was the knife pointed?
Tracy Edwards: When I was on the floor, he had it pointed at my groin area at that time.
Gerald Boyle: One knife?
Tracy Edwards: He had several, and then he slid one, I managed to slide one underneath the bed. And I guess during a point of time, through the ordeal, he didn't know where the knife was, so I didn't know if he felt that was a threat or not.
Gerald Boyle: So he still had a knife. You're on the floor. How long does he lay on top of you, trying to hear your heart, as you've described it?
Tracy Edwards: Maybe a minute, minute and a half.
Gerald Boyle: Then what, what did you do then?
Tracy Edwards: I knew something was about to happen, so I suggested that I go to the bathroom. I had to use the bathroom at the time.
Gerald Boyle: What did he do?
Tracy Edwards: He kind of guided me to the bathroom.
Gerald Boyle: So when you say guided, he still had a hold of your handcuff?
Tracy Edwards: Yes.
Gerald Boyle: And you went to the bathroom?
Tracy Edwards: Right.
Gerald Boyle: Did you urinate?
Tracy Edwards: Yeah.
Gerald Boyle: Were you able to utilize your own zipper, or did he touch you at all?
Tracy Edwards: Touched me in no way. Didn't attempt to look. He just held me in back, you know.
Gerald Boyle: So, so in other words, he didn't try to look at what your penis looked like or anything?
Tracy Edwards: Not at all.
Gerald Boyle: So after urinating, did you think that you were going to be the victim of, did he ask to, to engage in any homosexual acts with you?
Tracy Edwards: None whatsoever.
Gerald Boyle: Okay. So now you leave the bathroom, and what happens?
Tracy Edwards: Okay, then we go back into the bedroom, you know. It was like different [unclear: "time spans" / "times, man"]. We were talking about him leaving, losing his job, then he would come to the person that I was first with, you know, and then at certain points he would change, you know. At first he was talking, telling me about how people didn't care for him and things of this nature, and I was trying to comfort him, letting him know that I was a friend, you know, that I wasn't going to try to run away from him or nothing like that.
Gerald Boyle: You were being cool?
Tracy Edwards: I guess God, you can say that, 'cause I had no control. I was just, it was just, I don't know.
Gerald Boyle: Did this continue on for a long period of time during the night?
Tracy Edwards: Yes, apparently so. Time seemed to, I don't know. But I stayed in there that long, so it had to be going on throughout the whole ordeal, which it was. So time just, it happened like that.
Gerald Boyle: And all this time you're trying to hold him down?
Tracy Edwards: Yeah, certain points, right.
Gerald Boyle: How often would he go in and out of these moods?
Tracy Edwards: Sorry, the time spans I couldn't really tell you, but like he would like, I guess if you want to put it together in time, every 30 minutes, 20 minutes, something like that, you know. And then he would have moods of being just silent, you know, and I wouldn't say anything, try to provoke him or say the wrong thing. I would be silent with him.
Gerald Boyle: Okay. So you just let him be alone. Did you, was it, was that movie on the whole time? A long time?
Tracy Edwards: It was on a pretty good period of time, yeah. And when it went off, I couldn't tell you.
Gerald Boyle: Did he continue to chant from time to time?
Tracy Edwards: Yes, it happened several times throughout the ordeal.
Gerald Boyle: Now, when he would watch the movie, did you notice, when he would go into this thing that you told us, where he would really become fixed on the movie screen, what was happen, how often would that happen throughout the movie?
Tracy Edwards: Maybe every 15 or 20 minutes. And then he would turn around and try to ask me to put both of my hands behind my back, and I wouldn't, you know, do it. I would talk to him. I tell him, "You can trust me, you know, you don't have to do this." And that would calm him down a little bit.
Gerald Boyle: He had the knife the whole time?
Tracy Edwards: Right.
Gerald Boyle: He's watching the movie, and he becomes very interested in the movie?
Tracy Edwards: Right.
Gerald Boyle: You don't do anything, just sit there, sit there and be quiet, and then he would start conversation with you again?
Tracy Edwards: Yeah. He was like, [unclear: "You're going to have to do this and that" (captions) / "you don't have to do this and that" (Whisper)], you know. Then he told me, at a point, I was going to have to kill him, or he, either he was going to have to kill me, at one point.
Gerald Boyle: Were you and he drinking during this time?
Tracy Edwards: No.
Gerald Boyle: So he wasn't running out, bringing [unclear: "y'all" / "you out"] and getting beers and coming back?
Tracy Edwards: I would have been out the window at that point. [unclear: "Sure he would have" / "He would have"].
Gerald Boyle: Did he, when he was fixed, I'm trying to get some words to understand, was he intoxicated?
Tracy Edwards: I, I, I, he had been drinking, but far as being intoxicated, he was not staggering or anything of that nature.
Gerald Boyle: But you know, there's some people, when they have too much to drink, change their moods. Was that the kind of mood changes he was having, or a different kind of mood change?
Tracy Edwards: I think this was like more of an inner mood change than an alcoholic mood change.
Gerald Boyle: What kind of mood?
Tracy Edwards: It's like inner mood, yeah. A person change, not, not alcohol change.
Gerald Boyle: What did you think about this guy? What, what were you, what was going through your mind as to who you were sitting next to, who was doing all these things?
Tracy Edwards: A bizarre individual. Someone that was very confused at this time.
Gerald Boyle: Now, there came a time when you went to the washroom again?
Tracy Edwards: Right. I suggested, yeah, 'cause he had started getting aggressive a little bit again. I suggest to go to the bathroom. He let me stay in there by myself while he stayed outside the door at that time.
Gerald Boyle: And what happened then?
Tracy Edwards: And then I tell him, well, I was contemplating, I was asking God, "Shall I make my move now?" And I was going to just jump out the window. But when I got out, for some reason, I asked could I have another beer.
Gerald Boyle: Yeah. And what did he do?
Tracy Edwards: And he, he reaches over, he guides me over and reaches in and get a beer.
Gerald Boyle: He's still got you on the cuff?
Tracy Edwards: Yeah. And then he tells me, I told him, I want to sit in the front, 'cause it's an air conditioner. I was just going to try to jump out the window or go for the door or whatever, 'cause the back bedroom didn't have an air conditioner, only in the front. So I suggested we sit on the couch. I had to unbutton my shirt to try to make him feel more at ease. And then, and then I just sat on the couch like, and he just start going out of himself again.
Gerald Boyle: Going out of himself?
Tracy Edwards: Yeah, he was like paying me no attention at that time.
Gerald Boyle: Like he wasn't there?
Tracy Edwards: Yeah. He started the chanting again, and it's like just sitting there, you know. And then I just, for some reason, I said, "Well, I need to go to the bathroom again," and he didn't follow me at that point. So I reached up, I got up, and then I, [unclear: "got"] hit him, and I ran out.
Gerald Boyle: So you hit him?
Tracy Edwards: Right.
Gerald Boyle: Did you have any other belongings there?
Tracy Edwards: I have my bag right there at the end of the couch. I sit in exactly the same place that I sit when I went in there.
Gerald Boyle: So when you got up, he let go of your cuff to let you go to the bathroom again?
Tracy Edwards: He didn't even, he just like, just let me stay there. I was going to go for the window. At that point he didn't even have the cuff. It's like I wasn't even there anymore.
Gerald Boyle: And when you saw that, what'd you do?
Tracy Edwards: Mm-hmm. I just seized the opportunity. I said, "Well, at least I'm going to die trying. I'm not just going to sit here," you know.
Gerald Boyle: What'd you do, son?
Tracy Edwards: I hit him, and I ran towards the door, and he like was right there, tried to grab me, get me back in there.
Gerald Boyle: And what happened?
Tracy Edwards: Then I made it outside.
Gerald Boyle: So he wasn't able to bring you back in?
Tracy Edwards: Bring me back in there, no. He tried.
Gerald Boyle: He tried. And as you left that apartment, as you got away from him, I'm going to ask you again: what impressions were made on your mind by the conduct of Jeffrey Dahmer, by the actions of Jeffrey Dahmer, by the manner, expressions and conversations of Jeffrey Dahmer that you observed? Can you give us some words?
Tracy Edwards: As, like I told the policeman, that this freak, this crazy guy was trying to hurt me, yeah.
Gerald Boyle: Did you run out of the building?
Tracy Edwards: Yes, I did.
Gerald Boyle: Did you summon help?
Tracy Edwards: Yes.
Gerald Boyle: Milwaukee Police Department?
Tracy Edwards: That's correct.
Gerald Boyle: Did they come back there with you to the apartment?
Tracy Edwards: Right.
Gerald Boyle: Did you eventually go back into the apartment with the Milwaukee Police officers?
Tracy Edwards: Yes.
Gerald Boyle: And then he was arrested?
Tracy Edwards: Right.
Gerald Boyle: You gave a statement to the Milwaukee Police a few hours later?
Tracy Edwards: Yeah, I guess you could say a few hours, yeah. [30:41 to 31:12: no speech.]
Gerald Boyle: Mr. Edwards, through your lawyer, I had you come to Wisconsin to testify.
Tracy Edwards: That's correct.
Gerald Boyle: Other than your expenses, you're not being paid anything, correct?
Tracy Edwards: No.
Gerald Boyle: Is that true?
Tracy Edwards: That's true.
Gerald Boyle: Thank you, Mr. [unclear: name not caught]. Thank you.
Judge Laurence Gram Jr.: Mr. McCann, how long do we anticipate the cross-examination of this witness?
District Attorney E. Michael McCann: I'd say at least half an hour, Your Honor.
Judge Laurence Gram Jr.: Okay. That being the case, I think it's appropriate that we take a recess at this time, about 15 minutes. Court's in recess.
Speaker Uncertain; Bailiff Or Judge: [unclear: "All right, please" (both machines) / "All rise, please"]. ---