"There Comes a Time When I Just Have to Say Whoa": The Full Courtroom Sequence, Ted Bundy and Judge Cowart, July 1979

Name: "There Comes a Time When I Just Have to Say Whoa": The Full Courtroom Sequence, Ted Bundy and Judge Cowart, July 1979
Uploaded: 2021-12-08T00:00:00Z
Duration: 18 min
Description: Eighteen minutes of raw courtroom footage: jail officers describe a broken light and a lock jammed with toilet paper, Judge Cowart threatens to go on without Bundy, and Bundy, called to the bar, protests his jail conditions.

Eighteen minutes of raw courtroom footage: jail officers describe a broken light and a lock jammed with toilet paper, Judge Cowart threatens to go on without Bundy, and Bundy, called to the bar, protests his jail conditions.

Subject: Ted Bundy
Recorded: July 17, 1979
Runtime: 18:00

The Interview

This is raw courtroom footage, without narration, from Ted Bundy's trial in Miami for the Chi Omega murders, recorded in July 1979 before Judge Edward D. Cowart with the jury absent. It runs 18 minutes. For the first nine minutes Bundy is not in the courtroom: he had refused to come over from the Dade County Jail, and the judge took testimony from a jail sergeant and two officers before warning that the trial would continue without him. Bundy then arrives, is called to the bar and speaks for about five minutes in all, in an exchange with the judge.

Historical Context

On January 15, 1978, Margaret Bowman and Lisa Levy were murdered at the Chi Omega sorority house at Florida State University in Tallahassee. Bundy's trial was moved to Miami, where cameras were allowed in the courtroom and the proceedings were televised. Bundy, a former law student, took part in his own defense. He was convicted on July 24, 1979, and sentenced to death by Judge Cowart on July 31, 1979. He was executed on January 24, 1989.

Circumstances

Sergeant Martin Kratz of the Dade County Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation testified that at about 1 a.m. an orange had been thrown through the bars of Bundy's safety cell, smashing one of two special lights, and that in the morning the cell lock was jammed with toilet paper. He said Bundy told him he was not due to be picked up until 8:30, and officers said Bundy refused to come until he had seen his attorneys. At about 9:10 Cowart found Bundy in contempt, deferred any punishment until the end of the case, and told counsel that court would reconvene at 9:30 with or without him. The footage includes the recess.

What the Interview Covers

Bundy apologizes for an "extraordinary situation." Cowart tells him the court will not follow his schedule and gives him two citations on voluntary absence to look up, including Diaz v. United States. Bundy asks how he can hold the jail in contempt, and complains that he has had four visits in three weeks, has never been taken outside and has been to the law library three times, that the library lacks the cases the judge cited, and that he is strip searched after seeing his attorneys. He calls his treatment "harassment" and "an attempt by the system... to coerce me and to wear me down," says he has used only the nonviolent part of his "potential," and ends: "There comes a time when I just have to say whoa." Cowart replies that if Bundy says whoa again, "I'm going to be using spurs," and closes with "Bless your heart. I just hope you stay with us, because if you don't, we'll miss you."

What Makes the Recording Significant

It is the full courtroom sequence behind one of the most often replayed exchanges of the trial, including the jail testimony and the recess that news reports cut, and it shows Bundy, as his own co-counsel, arguing with the judge at length in open court.

Archival Importance

This record is the longer, uncut source.

Important Caveats

The date is given by the uploader as July 17, 1979, and has not been confirmed. The copy is a third-party reupload; a longer copy credited to ABC News VideoSource exists. Bundy's statements about his treatment at the Dade County Jail are his own claims and were not tested in this hearing. The officers' names and several quick exchanges are not legible in the machine text and are bracketed. The Florida case the judge cites is given as heard ("State versus Melendez") and is not verified.

Judge: Marty, [unclear: "swear" (captions) / "I'm sure of" (Whisper)] this witness, Madam Clerk. [00:01 to 00:13: the oath is administered; not legible in either source.]

Sgt. Martin Kratz: I do.

Judge: It has been reported to me that there's some little problem over with Mr. Bundy this morning. Will you acquaint the court with the facts?

Sgt. Martin Kratz: Uh, yes, sir. At approximately 1 a.m. this morning, my officers that were on duty on the fourth floor...

Judge: First of all, state your name and official position.

Sgt. Martin Kratz: Martin Kratz, K-R-A-T-Z, sergeant, Dade County Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation.

Judge: Go ahead.

Sgt. Martin Kratz: At approximately 1 o'clock this morning, uh, my officers on duty on the fourth floor of the jail heard the sound of breaking glass coming from the safety cell area. Two of the officers immediately responded to the area, where they found broken glass all over the entranceway to Mr. Bundy's cell. On further examination, they found an orange had been thrown through the bars, smashing one of the two special lights that had been placed in cell 405 [unclear: "for" / "from"] Mr. Bundy. They attempted to collect all the glass, and they found certain pieces of the glass missing. They then removed Mr. Bundy from cell 405 and placed him in cell 406, searched the cell and found additional pieces of glass in the back portion of the cell. Mr. Bundy was then placed back into his cell, where he went back to sleep.

Sgt. Martin Kratz: This morning, approximately 15 minutes before 8, I went to Mr. Bundy's cell to awaken him so that he could get dressed to come to court. I could not get him to get up. I proceeded to place the key in the lock of the safety cell and found that the key would not fit into the lock. I took my flashlight, and upon closer examination of the lock, I noticed that the lock had been jammed with what appeared to be toilet paper.

Judge: Was this from the inside [unclear: "of the cell" / "to sell"], or on the outside?

Sgt. Martin Kratz: Judge, the lock can be [unclear: "reached" / "erased" (both sources)] if you place your hand through the bars. You can [unclear: "reach around" (captions) / "'t reach your hand if you don't" (Whisper)].

Judge: All right.

Sgt. Martin Kratz: I proceeded to notify the shift commander, Sergeant Galvez, here in the courthouse, and yourself that there would possibly be a delay in getting Mr. Bundy to court this morning. I had my maintenance crew come down. We picked as much of the paper out of the lock, which turned out to be toilet paper. We forced the key into the lock and did get the lock open. I asked Mr. Bundy if he was getting ready for court. He says, "It's not 8:30. [unclear: "You aren't" / "He ain't"] supposed to pick me up until 8:30." This was approximately 8:15. When I left the jail, Mr. Bundy had been given his clothes and his shaving equipment. He was sitting on his bunk reading a letter. He had not made any attempt to get dressed [unclear: "or to shave" / "for the shave" / "towards the shade"].

Judge: All right. Did other personnel contact him this morning?

Sgt. Martin Kratz: Sergeant [unclear: "Galvez" / "Gallus" (Whisper only)], and [unclear: name] also of our department, spoke to Mr. Bundy, and I cannot give you an exact quote as to what he said, since I wasn't in full hearing range. It was something to the effect, "I'll get ready when I feel like it."

Judge: All right. Does counsel want to question [unclear: "Sergeant Galvez" / "uh"]?

Defense Counsel: No, I don't. I do appreciate the court [unclear: "giving a chance to talk to him about it" (Whisper only)]. [03:26: music or noise on the soundtrack (captions).]

Judge: Well, [unclear: "the court's going to" / "of course I'm going to"] have some comment about that in just a minute, [unclear: "Mr. Clark" / "Mr. Carmen"]. Has anybody else tried to bring him over, [unclear: "Sergeant" / "oversight, Gallus"]?

Sgt. Martin Kratz: Your Honor, I have two officers that are in attendance at the jail.

Judge: Will they come forward and identify themselves?

Sgt. Martin Kratz: Yes, sir.

Jail Officer: [inaudible: the officers give their names and department; Whisper "Officer, you will see suit on reparation"; captions "around the final duration of the usc department operation"]

Judge: Have you talked to Mr. Bundy this morning, either one of you or both of you?

Jail Officer: [unclear: "We both have" / "And we are both of them"]. Yes, sir.

Judge: And what took place?

Jail Officer: I was going to [unclear: "bring him to court"? / "the court" (Whisper)], and he stated, not until he sees his attorney. And [unclear: "I" / "they"] asked him, well, won't you be dressed, and you see your attorney [unclear: "over here" ? / "going to breathe" (Whisper) / "returns on the bridge" (captions)]? He stated that he'd rather not do that, because they rush him and they don't [unclear: "listen" / "miss it"], and he wants to see him here. And he said that he refused to come over.

Judge: [unclear: "He didn't try to find the court for a minute, then?" (Whisper only)]

Jail Officer: No, sir.

Judge: [unclear: "And that court directs you not to." (Whisper only)] All right. [unclear: "Tom,"] Where is he now? Is he still in his cell?

Jail Officer: Yes, sir.

Judge: He's aware that court was going to start at 9 o'clock? [unclear: "Did you discuss that with him?" / "Can you discuss that with me?" (both sources)]

Jail Officer: Yes, sir.

Judge: Do the attorneys have any questions of these gentlemen? All right. Anything from the state?

Prosecutor: No, sir.

Judge: Thank you.

Judge: Anything from the state?

Prosecutor: No, sir. No, sir. [unclear: "Witnesses are ready." (Whisper only)] We're ready for trial.

Judge: So is the court. Thank you. All right, gentlemen, thank you. I want to instruct counsel to go talk to Mr. Bundy, and it's now 10 minutes after 9. At 9:30 the court is going to reconvene, and if he has voluntarily absented himself, as he has at this proceeding, the trial is going to continue. I want you to communicate that to him. I want him to be fully apprised of that. In that communication, I'm going to ask the bailiff [unclear: "to accompany" / "company" / "to come to"] the court reporter over there, so that there is recorded in this record the instructions that you give him and his reply. And if this man is not in court by 9:30, this case will proceed. Is there any question about that? Any of you want to ask the court about it? All right.

Judge: And the court will find him in contempt of this court for failing to be here at this time, and I will indicate to you that punishment or any sentence on that will be deferred until the case is over. I want that instruction made, and this court will reconvene at 9:30, and we'll continue whether he's here or not. [captions: "We'll be in recess until 9:30."] [06:12 to 08:30: recess. Scattered, indistinct voices in the courtroom. Whisper renders some as "All of us are waiting for this." "What?" "I don't want you to investigate." "You're out." "Okay." "All right."; the captions have only "hello", "excuse me", "scared" and "um". Speakers not identified; not reliable.]

Judge: Any report by counsel?

Defense Counsel: [unclear: "that you would report and I expect that you will be here within a [minute]" (Whisper only)] Mr. [unclear: "Alloy"; name as heard, not verified] and Mr. Harvey remained over at the jail to walk across with him, and they will be here.

Unidentified Speakers: [unclear: "If you visit the city, I can be here." "Are they here?" "Yes." "Are they [inaudible]?" (Whisper only)]

Judge: Mr. Bundy, the court wants to talk to you [unclear: "a minute" / "man" (both sources)]. Come up to the bar, please.

Judge: What happened?

Ted Bundy: Excuse me?

Judge: What happened?

Ted Bundy: Wait [unclear: "a minute"]. Do you mean [unclear: "in"] the jail?

Judge: The court was supposed to start at 9 o'clock.

Ted Bundy: Well, it was necessary for me to communicate with my counsel, and I felt the issues that we had to deal with were serious enough that the extraordinary situation did arise, and I apologize to the court.

Judge: The court has already found you in contempt of this court.

Ted Bundy: Well, I know that's probably the least of [unclear: "your words" (both sources) / "my worries"].

Unidentified Speaker: [unclear: "Yes, I'd have to say that." (captions only)]

Judge: I want to tell you something, young man, and I want to tell you [unclear: "clearly and unequivocally" / "fairly and unequivocal"] so you understand. This court is not going to follow your schedule. This court is going to set the time when we convene and when we do not convene. I've given you every conceivable privilege to discuss matters with your counsel, to be with your counsel, and if there's any more delay in this court's proceeding occasioned by your voluntary acts, we're proceeding without you. And I want you to look up some cases when you go back in the law library, so you're fully familiar with where we're going. [unclear: "Have the cites down?" (Whisper only)]

Ted Bundy: Yes, sir. I happen to have the [unclear: "cites" / "sites"].

Judge: Okay. The Florida case is State versus [unclear: "Melendez" / "Melinda's"] at 244 [unclear: reporter not stated] 137. And I want you particularly to look at the language of the United States Supreme Court in Diaz versus United States, at 32 Supreme Court Reporter 250. And the language is very clear concerning that. The court wants you to be forewarned, because I'm not tolerating any more of it. Is there any question in your mind?

Ted Bundy: Well, there's no question in my mind, [unclear: "Your Honor," / "don't"] except I think that the court should be aware, and perhaps the court can tell me how I can hold the jail in contempt.

Judge: [unclear: "And he can quit breaking lives and throwing oranges and stuff. And neither have I taught a paper in the law." (Whisper only); probably a reply about breaking lights, throwing oranges and stuffing paper in the lock]

Unidentified Speaker: [unclear: "That's how you can knuckle women for good." / "Where am I possibly on count?" (Whisper only)]

Ted Bundy: There are a number of officials both in and around this case, not in this courtroom, in the Dade County Jail, and the sheriff here in the county [unclear: "will not" / "did not"] comply with this court's order. Since I have been in Dade County, I have been allowed...

Judge: Don't shake your finger at me, young man.

Ted Bundy: ...one and one half hour...

Unidentified Speaker: That's fine. You can shake it [unclear: "in this case" / "it must have happened"]. He probably, he probably deserves it better than you.

Unidentified Speaker: [unclear: "He shakes his leg" (captions) / "What do you care about the Shakespeare you're doing, Judge?" (Whisper)]

Ted Bundy: One and one half hours of visiting with other inmates, and allowed six. I've been here three weeks and I've had four visits. I've never been taken outside in the three weeks I've been here. I've been taken to the law library three times in three weeks.

Judge: Yeah. Now, at least three of the occasions, you sat up there and just talked to Sergeant [unclear: "Prepp" / "Prep"; name as heard, not verified].

Ted Bundy: That's not true. It's not true. [unclear: "In the library itself" / "You and your case is a library of children"] In case the court's interested, if you would try to find the cites you just gave me, you would not find them in the Dade County Jail law library, because that [unclear: "library" / "number"] has nothing in it. Now, it's a joke, but it's a better place to read than in that small interview room.

Ted Bundy: What I'm saying to you, Your Honor, is I'm laboring under conditions which are causing me stress which this court is not aware of, and I'm not talking about the stress of this case. I'm talking about the conditions imposed upon me in the Dade County Jail, which are excessive and which constitute harassment, harassment. It is an attempt by the system, I think, to coerce me and to wear me down. There is no justification for the treatment I'm receiving. I am given a strip search after I see my attorneys. Now, that is unconscionable. There is a concerted attempt on the part of the correctional system in this county to constantly place more stress and pressure on me than I experience in the courtroom.

Ted Bundy: Now, this railroad train [unclear: "will be running" / "isn't running"], Your Honor, but if I want to get up, I'll get up, if I need to demonstrate to the court that there are things happening outside this courtroom that are influencing and affecting me. Now, I think there comes a time when I have, I've petitioned this court and I've petitioned the county on several occasions to improve these conditions and to comply with federal law, to apply their own procedures, but they have not. And there comes a time when the only thing I can do is passively resist, [unclear: "as it were" / "that support"]. Now, I have a great [unclear: "deal of"] potential to deal with the situation. And I've only exerted that part of my potential which is [unclear: "not violent" / "nonviolent"].

Judge: [unclear: "You don't care" (captions) / "You and Kate, do the court keep going?" (Whisper)]

Ted Bundy: No, I'm saying to the court...

Judge: [inaudible]

Ted Bundy: No, no, I'm saying to the court...

Judge: [unclear: "Seek and ye shall find; knock and it shall be opened unto you" (probable) / "So, if any of you shall find, then knock and it'll be over-numb to you" (Whisper)]. Remember that? [unclear: "I always remember that story. I remember that story." (Whisper only; speaker uncertain)]

Ted Bundy: But I'm saying to the court, there are certain things that have to be improved. Now, I'm not asking for special privileges, but I'm getting special treatment, and I'm getting a special brand of coercion, and I'm enough of a man not, not to take it. Now, I'm not going to stand in this courtroom [unclear: "while I'm soaking cold" (Whisper only)], and I'm not going to stand in front of the jury and watch my chances for an [unclear: "acquittal" / "equivalent" (both sources)] go down the drain. But on the other hand, I don't think I have to come into this courtroom today with everyone assuming that I'm coming in here fresh as a daisy after coming back from my condominium or whatever it is. I leave here and I go back to that [unclear: "hole of a jail" / "hole to jail" (captions) / "telephone to jail" (Whisper)].

Ted Bundy: And I'm telling you, Your Honor, that we've got to, I have got to communicate with someone. Someone in this county has got to have the power to direct [unclear: "the persons" / "the person"] to administrate that jail to follow their procedures when it comes to me. And someone, Your Honor, perhaps, has got to have the power. When you say that I'm entitled to use the law library, [unclear: "I'm entitled" / "I'm telling you" (captions) / "and tend" (Whisper)] to have visits like anybody else, that the county should be able to follow those instructions rather than disregard them as convenience warrants.

Ted Bundy: So today was an extraordinary situation. I apologize to the court, but I don't apologize in one respect, because I think it's warranted. There comes a time when I just have to say whoa. [unclear: "And here you are, I can't put in the court at last." (Whisper only)]

Judge: Let me say to you, if you say whoa as it relates to these proceedings anymore, I'm going to be using spurs and overcome that whoa.

Ted Bundy: [unclear: "You better." (as heard in V157) / "Gideon, you bet." (Whisper) / "idiot" (captions)]

Judge: And this court is going to proceed on schedule without your voluntary interruption. Now, that's all I want to communicate to you. Okay? And we're not going to have it anymore. If we do, we're going to go ahead. And I want you to discuss that with your counsel. I want you to know your rights as it relates to these proceedings. But I also want you to know that, as forbearing as this court can be, it can also be just that strong. I don't think there's any [unclear: "equivocation" / "clarification"] on that in your mind.

Ted Bundy: I'm willing to accept the consequences for [unclear: "actions, Your Honor" / "what I actually draw"]. Anything I do, I'm aware of what the court will do [unclear: "with me"].

Judge: All right. That's where we are, then. We're together. Bless your heart. I just hope you stay with us, because if you don't, we'll miss you. All right. [17:25 to 18:00: courtroom sounds.]

Unidentified Speaker: Thank you. ---