"Ken Belongs Gone": Kenneth Bianchi as "Steve" Under Hypnosis, Bellingham, 1979
Hypnotized in the Bellingham jail in 1979, Kenneth Bianchi was taken back to his childhood and then spoke as "Steve", a second personality who claimed the killings. Experts later concluded the performance was faked.
- Subject
- Kenneth Bianchi
- Recorded
- about January 12, 1979
- Runtime
- 14:57
Content warning: Speaking as "Steve", Bianchi describes strangling women in Bellingham and Los Angeles, in heavily profane and misogynistic language.
The Interview
After his arrest in Bellingham, Washington, in January 1979, Kenneth Bianchi pleaded not guilty by reason of insanity, and clinicians examined him for the court, many of the sessions on videotape. In this session the examiner hypnotizes him and takes him back to boyhood: Bianchi speaks as a child about his father's death and his mother's harshness, and mentions "my friend Stevie". The examiner then counts him back up to age 27 and asks to talk to "Stevie". Bianchi, speaking as "Steve", swears at the examiner, says he wants Ken "out of the way", and claims that he, not Ken, killed the two young women in Bellingham and four women in Los Angeles, and that Angelo killed five.
Historical Context
Between October 1977 and February 1978, Bianchi and his cousin Angelo Buono Jr. abducted, raped and strangled women and girls in the Los Angeles area. Bianchi then moved to Bellingham, where on January 11, 1979, he lured Karen Mandic, 22, and Diane Wilder, 27, students at Western Washington University, to a house he was guarding and strangled them. He was arrested the next day. On March 29, 1979, he entered an insanity plea. Under hypnosis he presented a second personality, "Steve", whom he blamed for the murders.
Circumstances of the Interview
Six clinicians evaluated Bianchi in 1979, for the defense, the prosecution and the court, and more than 60 hours of interviews with him were videotaped after his arrest. The examiner in this session is not named in the recording. His statement that he is writing "a report for the judge" and his use of age regression are consistent with Dr. Ralph B. Allison, a psychiatrist who examined Bianchi for the court in spring 1979, but this has not been confirmed. The examiner already knows about "Stevie" and calls for him by name, so this is not the first session in which "Steve" appeared.
What the Interview Covers
As a boy, Bianchi says God "wanted him more than we did", that his mother still hits him, and that he keeps telling her he "can't be Dad". As "Steve" he says Ken has been "a hassle to me all my life", that he killed "those broads" to "smarten him up", that he telephoned Karen and arranged for her to bring her friend, and that he strangled them with cord he brought from his basement. He says he did not think killing them was wrong, that laws are nothing but writing on paper, and that he and Angelo were a team in Los Angeles, where he says Angelo killed five women and he killed four. At the end he says they used cord and twisted cellophane bags, and that he "gave him the idea and he went with it all".
What Makes the Recording Significant
The "Steve" sessions were the core of Bianchi's insanity defense and one of the best-known cases of feigned multiple personality. The prosecution's expert, Dr. Martin Orne, concluded that Bianchi was simulating, and investigators found that the name he gave "Steve", Steve Walker, came from a real student whose identity Bianchi had tried to use to pose as a psychologist. Bianchi abandoned the defense and in October 1979 pleaded guilty, agreeing to testify against Buono.
Archival Importance
These tapes were studied in detail by the experts in the case and in later professional literature, and excerpts were broadcast in PBS Frontline's "The Mind of a Murderer" in 1984. This recording shows the "Steve" persona as the examiners saw it.
Important Caveats
Everything "Steve" says is Bianchi speaking. The experts for the prosecution concluded that the multiple personality was faked. His account of the killings here, including the numbers he gives, is a claim made in a disputed state and should not be treated as a record of events: ten Los Angeles murders are attributed to the Hillside Stranglers; Bianchi pleaded guilty to five, and Buono was convicted of nine. The examiner is not identified. The clip is an edited excerpt; it opens mid-session and has cuts.
Examiner: What do you think happened? Because your father [unclear: "had to die" / "could die"]?
Kenneth Bianchi: God wanted him more than we did. God doesn't know I really needed him.
Examiner: What happened? [pause] God must have had his reason, but we don't know what it is, do we? It left you awfully lonely, didn't it?
Kenneth Bianchi: [unclear: "Just me and Mom" / "Yeah, that's you and Mom"]. We're all alone. And no, no Stevie there.
Examiner: How is, how is he taking care of you now that Dad is gone?
Kenneth Bianchi: My friend Stevie?
Examiner: Mm-hmm.
Kenneth Bianchi: [unclear: "He wasn't" / "Who was it"]
Examiner: What? What do you mean?
Kenneth Bianchi: He's gone, you know.
Examiner: How is your mom taking care of you and dealing with you now that your dad has died?
Kenneth Bianchi: She ain't different.
Examiner: Is she still mean and nasty to you?
Kenneth Bianchi: [unclear: "Now for sure" / "Now if it's real"], she won't let me do anything. She always [unclear: "wants you home" / "I don't"]. I can't be Dad. I keep telling her I can't be Dad, I'm just a kid.
Examiner: So she's trying to get out of you what she needed out of your dad, huh? Then did she calm down, as far as hitting you and telling you what to do, or what?
Kenneth Bianchi: No, she still hits. Tells me everything, what to do. I can't even walk out the front door without her telling me to do it.
Examiner: Any other people showing up [unclear: "to relax, Stevie" / "there like Steven"]? [pause] [unclear: "If your dad is going away" / "Even if your dad is going away"], he loves you very much. He still loves you. I'm sure God is having him look after you in whatever way he can, and help you in whatever way he can. He's just beginning to be the close father to you. I'm sure he misses you as much as [unclear: "you do" / "eventually as soon"]. Maybe you can listen for him; maybe he can get through and talk to you a little bit. Maybe you can get some of his wisdom and his judgment, some of his knowledge about how to cope with these things.
Kenneth Bianchi: You just never know.
Examiner: I'm sure he misses you too.
Kenneth Bianchi: I just wanted to talk to him.
Examiner: Okay, I'm going to start [unclear: "getting you to grow up" / "keeping you grow up"]. Fifteen you are. Fourteen, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27. And now I want to talk to Stevie. I want to talk to Stevie. [unclear: "It's Stevie" / "Excuse me"] that we've been talking about.
Examiner: Hello? What's your name?
Kenneth Bianchi: Steve.
Examiner: Last name?
Kenneth Bianchi: You! You're a motherfucker that's been trying to get me to leave him. You can't do that, fucker.
Examiner: What's your last name?
Kenneth Bianchi: Fuck, [unclear: "isn't it, is it of yours" / "this name is an averse"]. [inaudible]
Examiner: How old are you, Steve?
Kenneth Bianchi: What are you writing, a fucking book?
Examiner: No. I'm writing a report for the judge. He's asked me to talk to you.
Kenneth Bianchi: Fuck. Ask him then how old I am.
Examiner: I know Ken's 27.
Kenneth Bianchi: Fuck him.
Examiner: Ashtray's on the chair over there.
Kenneth Bianchi: I know where the fucking ashtrays are. You don't have to tell me. Fucking assholes. You know, I was doing fine, you know. I'd come out whenever I fucking felt like it. Now you've got to stick your goddamn nose in this whole shit mess. I was doing fine, you know. Now I can't even fucking come out when I want to.
Examiner: What holds you back?
Kenneth Bianchi: That fucking asshole. I, he just... Fucking forget it. Fucking forget it.
Examiner: You haven't come out in jail at all here? [unclear: "In your three months" / "You've got three months"]?
Kenneth Bianchi: Yeah, I fucking used to.
Examiner: To do what?
Kenneth Bianchi: Anything I fucking wanted. I want that fucker out of the way. He's been a hassle to me all my life.
Examiner: How so?
Kenneth Bianchi: He thinks he's so fucking good, you know. One time I used to like that asshole.
Examiner: You were a good friend of that guy?
Kenneth Bianchi: One time. But he just fucking won't listen. You know, there's a fucking right way to do things, and there's fucking my way to do things, and my way has always been the right way. Fuck him. You know, nobody's worth it out there. It's just a fucked up world. Fuck him, his mother too. Fucking c---.
Examiner: She was quite a bitch, wasn't she?
Kenneth Bianchi: She was a fucking c---. You know, he still puts up with her shit a little bit, you know. I mean, granted, you know, I can't come out, but I can see what he's doing. And fuck, man, he has got to wise up, you know. He just... I want to get out. I want to stay out, and fuck it, it's all there is to it. I'm just a better person than him.
Examiner: But you did get yourself in a jam.
Kenneth Bianchi: He got himself into a jam. I fucking killed those broads, you know, to smarten him up, to show him that he couldn't push me fucking around.
Examiner: Which broads?
Kenneth Bianchi: Those two fucking c---s. That blonde-haired c--- and a brunette c---.
Examiner: [unclear: "In Bellingham?" / "Your belly in?"]
Kenneth Bianchi: That's right.
Examiner: Why?
Kenneth Bianchi: Because I hate fucking c---s.
Examiner: Why those two? You didn't even know them.
Kenneth Bianchi: He knew them.
Examiner: Oh, I thought he only knew one of them a little bit.
Kenneth Bianchi: He knew one of them. The other one came along for the ride. C---s are so fucking stupid. You don't understand that.
Examiner: That's what I'm trying to learn.
Kenneth Bianchi: You just don't fucking understand that, you know. He doesn't either, you know.
Examiner: Why don't you explain to me why you did it?
Kenneth Bianchi: [unclear: "Fucking waste" / "fucking ways"].
Examiner: How did you do it?
Kenneth Bianchi: Strangled them. Fucking plain as that.
Examiner: With what?
Kenneth Bianchi: Strangling with fucking cord. Nothing to it.
Examiner: Did you bring the cord along, or was it there?
Kenneth Bianchi: You bet. No, brought it along.
Examiner: Where did you get it from?
Kenneth Bianchi: Got it from my basement.
Examiner: Why did you have them go there? How did you have them go there?
Kenneth Bianchi: Oh, it was a cinch, man. You know, he used to be such a fucking sap, you know. I just, he left, I came. I did all the calling. I found out what her phone number was. I called Karen. I set it up so she could bring her girlfriend.
Examiner: How much money did you offer?
Kenneth Bianchi: A couple hundred bucks.
Examiner: That sounds like a pretty high price.
Kenneth Bianchi: That's a sap deal, you know. I never had the money to pay them.
Examiner: No. That's why their friends were kind of wondering about why you'd offer so much money. Why at that time did you choose to kill someone?
Kenneth Bianchi: Because I was finding it so hard to come out where I belong, you know. Do you fucking understand that?
Examiner: Where do you belong?
Kenneth Bianchi: I belong out. Ken belongs gone. I belong out in a world where I can do what I fucking want to.
Examiner: What about his girl and baby?
Kenneth Bianchi: What about them? They were there. They were there too. Fuck, he's so stupid, you know.
Examiner: What did you hope to accomplish by killing those two girls?
Kenneth Bianchi: Get him out of the way.
Examiner: What would happen to you?
Kenneth Bianchi: Nothing would fucking happen to me.
Examiner: How did you expect him to disappear? By being executed? Or disappear in some other way?
Kenneth Bianchi: He would disappear in some other way.
Examiner: Did you ever think that that body there might be executed by the law, for first-degree murder?
Kenneth Bianchi: So fucking what?
Examiner: Well, that would sort of put an end to a lot of activity, wouldn't it?
Kenneth Bianchi: I guess.
Examiner: Did you think about that before you killed them?
Kenneth Bianchi: Fuck no.
Examiner: Did you realize that it was right or wrong? Which way did you think it was?
Kenneth Bianchi: It wasn't fucking wrong. Why is it wrong to get rid of some fucking c---s?
Examiner: Why did you think it was right?
Kenneth Bianchi: Because it makes the world a better place to live in.
Examiner: Did you realize there was a law against killing girls?
Kenneth Bianchi: Fucking laws. Laws are nothing but fucking writing on paper.
Examiner: Did you realize there is a law on paper that says you'll get executed if you kill girls? Did you know that?
Kenneth Bianchi: That's bullshit.
Examiner: Did you know that the state of Washington has a law against killing girls?
Kenneth Bianchi: Fuck. [pause] No.
Kenneth Bianchi: [unclear: "You satisfied now?" / "You see, I didn't find out"]
Examiner: I'm just asking a question.
Kenneth Bianchi: You know, I didn't even want to fucking talk to you. You know, this fucking asshole over here is trying to get rid of me. This one over here is trying to fucking get rid of me. And you've got all the questions.
Examiner: I'm just here to ask questions. That's my job.
Kenneth Bianchi: [unclear: "Nobody can get rid of you" / "No, we can get rid of you again"]. I'm going to [unclear: "clue you" / "kill you"], it's a fuck job you've got.
Examiner: True.
Kenneth Bianchi: You know, you should go out and live a little bit.
Examiner: I find it interesting.
Kenneth Bianchi: I bet you do.
Examiner: How about down in L.A. with Angelo?
Kenneth Bianchi: Yeah, he's my kind of person.
Examiner: How so?
Kenneth Bianchi: He just, he doesn't care a fuck about life. It's great. Other people's life doesn't give him a fuck. That's great. That's a good attitude to have.
Examiner: Did he kill anybody?
Kenneth Bianchi: Yep.
Examiner: How many?
Kenneth Bianchi: He has? Five girls.
Examiner: You watched him kill them all?
Kenneth Bianchi: You bet I did. You can be sure that he killed those five, positively, without a doubt.
Examiner: Did you kill any down there?
Kenneth Bianchi: Yep, I did.
Examiner: How many?
Kenneth Bianchi: Four of them.
Examiner: Okay, that makes nine. Anybody else know that you killed anybody else?
Kenneth Bianchi: Fuck no. What a team we were.
Examiner: [unclear: "Sounds like you were pretty busy" / "Pretty sure, so busy"].
Kenneth Bianchi: Yep.
Examiner: All during what period of time?
Kenneth Bianchi: A while back. [unclear: "One month, two months" / "I wonder, one month or two months"]. Over a couple years. Maybe about a year.
Examiner: After you lived with him?
Kenneth Bianchi: Yep.
Examiner: Did you start when you were living with him?
Kenneth Bianchi: Nope, started afterwards.
Examiner: Afterwards? How did you two get together to do that?
Kenneth Bianchi: I couldn't, I was having a problem. I had no problem coming out, no fucking problem whatsoever, until he moved in with Angelo. Fucking Angelo was smart, and Ken just... You know, it's a fucking bad situation, you know, when you can't come to terms with somebody that you know so well, you think you know so well. And just being around Angelo, fucking Ken couldn't do anything. You know, I [unclear: "could" / "couldn't"] come out. He just got away from it all. You know, when he moved out it was easier. I was alone, you know. I was alone with him. I could come out whenever I fucking felt like it. [edit]
Kenneth Bianchi: Big fucking deal. So I killed a couple of c---s. It's no fucking big deal.
Examiner: [unclear: "I killed four" / "Before"]... That's more than a couple.
Kenneth Bianchi: More than four. Four there, two here. No fucking big deal.
Examiner: Okay. How did you kill them?
Kenneth Bianchi: Strangled them all. It's the easiest way to go.
Examiner: What? Cords? Did you bring it with you?
Kenneth Bianchi: Bags. You bet. Bring in bags. Bags. What you do is, you take cellophane bags and you just twist them up real tight. There's nothing to it.
Examiner: And nobody would know that that was the [unclear: "noose I mentioned" / "new sign language"]?
Kenneth Bianchi: Fucking right. Just [unclear: "throw" / "through"] the trash barrel. Angelo had everything. He had all kinds of cord in his shop.
Examiner: Why did Angelo kill the girls? What did he have against them?
Kenneth Bianchi: I don't know, man. You know, he just, uh... he was just an easy guy to get with the program, you know. I gave him the idea and he went with it all. [recording ends] ---