By Christi Punteney
The El Paso County hearing continues, transcribed from the official record: the grand jury testimony of Texas Ranger Clayton Smith in two parts, Texas Ranger Phil Ryan, and Paul Smith, with the statements of facts between them. It runs verbatim. Pages 685 to 1000.
THE COURT: It will so reflect.
Gentlemen, let’s take about a five-minute break just to stretch.
(A recess was taken.)
THE COURT: Would you please raise your right hand, sir?
Have a seat there.
MR. MOODY: May we proceed, Your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
CLAYTON SMITH,
Having been first duly sworn by the Court to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, was examined and testified as follows:
BY MR. MOODY:
Q. Would you state your name, please, sir?
A. Clayton Smith.
Q. What is your profession?
A. Texas Ranger.
Q. How long have you been involved in law enforcement?
A. 27 years.
Q. Has all of that been with the Texas Rangers?
A. No, sir, I spent 20 years with the Texas
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Highway patrol and seven years with the ranger service.
MR. MOODY: Excuse me, Your Honor. I need to have something brought in the courtroom here.
(An off-the-record discussion was held.
Q. (BY MR. MOODY) Now, Detective Smith, you had said or, Ranger Smith, you said you had been 20 years in the Texas highway patrol?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And then the, what, seven years?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. With the Texas Rangers. What is - - Do you have a rank in the Texas Rangers?
A. I’m a private.
Q. To what area or company are you assigned?
A. I’m assigned to Company F.
Q. Back at the time of 1983-84, what area or what particular area were you assigned to?
A. I was assigned at that time to the counties of Williamson County, which would be Georgetown, Lee County, Bastrop County, those three counties.
Q. And just briefly, what is the Texas Ranger - - you, as A Texas Ranger, what is your job responsibility in the three counties you mentioned, Lee, Williamson and Bastrop? Is that correct?
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Yes, sir, it was. And also I shared Travis County with another ranger. My primary responsibility was to aid and assist other law enforcement agencies within those counties.
Q. And how was it, or why was it that you were made part of or one of the members of the ranger task force assigned to Henry Lucas?
A. Because it was in one of my counties.
Q. Okay. You did not volunteer for this?
A. No, sir, I did not.
Q. It was in one of your counties that Henry Lucas was incarcerated?
A. That’s correct.
Q. That would be Williamson County?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You were called upon to assist - - or who called upon you for assistance or the rangers for assistance?
A. Sheriff Boutwell had contacted the Department of Public Safety and asked for assistance. And as the task force was formed, I was assigned to assist in the operation of the task force.
Q. And how many rangers were assigned to that task force?
A. There were only two.
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Q. And who were they?
A. Sergeant Bob Prince and myself.
Q. All right. And where did Bob Prince work out of?
A. He worked out of Waco.
Q. When you were the Texas Ranger in the area of Williamson County, Bastrop County and Lee County, where did you reside, what particular town?
A. I resided in Williamson County.
Q. Now, what was the purposes of this two-man task force unit that was created? What was your job responsibility function in regards to Henry Lee Lucas?
A. It was to coordinate between other law enforcement agencies to afford the opportunity for them to make contact with Lucas. In the beginning the sheriff was swamped with telephone calls after he had gotten Henry to the Williamson County jail and he asked for assistance to help alleviate the extra workload concerning Henry that had been placed on his department. He just said he didn’t have the manpower to handle it, the flood of calls that were coming in.
Q. All right. And this is after the time when Henry Lucas had self-confessed to committing numerous murders throughout the United States?
A. Yes, sir.
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Q. And so it was not unusual that law enforcement agents from all over the country were calling?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. That was a problem that the sheriff was having?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. So how much space there in Williamson County did Sheriff Boutwell provide to you for offices or to handle this project?
A. We had two rooms, one of them being the room that we set up our office in, the other room being an interview room.
Q. Okay. And how large were these offices?
A. They were fairly small. They weren’t very large.
Q. So it was not your job responsibility or function to determine if Henry Lucas had committed a murder or not committed a murder?
MR. PONTON: Excuse me. I object to the leading nature of that question, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Well, just rephrase the question.
Q. (BY MR. MOODY) So what was your job responsibility, if any, in trying to determine whether Henry Lucas had or had not been involved in
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any particular murders?
You’re talking in relation to other cases that were being called in and people wanting to come and things like that or - -
Q. Yes.
A. It was not my responsibility to determine if Lucas was guilty or not guilty or thought to be a prime suspect on other officer’s cases.
Q. Just to set up schedulings and to make him available for other officers to question. Is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And as part of that, on February 13th of 1984 did Henry Lucas - - did you bring Henry Lucas to El Paso?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. All right. What was the purpose of that trip?
A. That was to make him available for the El Paso, I believe it was the county sheriff’s office, and also possibly the police department. There were several members that met us on the first trip to El Paso, and I believe they represented both agencies.
Q. All right. Is that the trip that you traveled around in a van here in El Paso?
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Yes, sir, it is.
Q. Do you recall if that trip was Henry Lucas was in the van, if parts of that conversation with Mr. Lucas were tape recorded?
A. I believe they were.
Q. And drawing your attention specifically to the time frame when you were out in the area near Horizon Boulevard and Interstate 10, do you recall a question from Greg Lucas to the effect, “Are there any other cases you have around here?”
A. I can’t remember his exact words, but, yes, that was asked about any other cases.
Q. Okay. Do you recall Mr. Lucas’ response?
A. Yes, sir, I do.
Q. What was that response?
A. He gestured by pointing back towards Mexico and stated that he had killed an old lady in Mexico.
Q. Was that case pursued at all that time?
A. No, sir, not at that time. I don’t think it was. I don’t believe it was, since Mexico was mentioned. I don’t think it was.
Q. All right. Well, did you go down towards the lower valley of El Paso?
A. No, sir.
Q. And no further discussion of that incident
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was brought up?
Not in my presence it wasn’t.
Q. Now, one of your job responsibilities in the task force was handling what they call the mail-in cases?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. Would you briefly describe to the judge what mail-in cases were? A. They were a lot of police departments that were small that did not have the adequate manpower to send people all the way to Texas from other states and even within this - - our own state. And they would call in and ask if we would talk to Lucas about a case that occurred in their area, and we would talk to Lucas about their case as time permitted. It wasn’t a priority thing, but then we would record the conversation and send the tape back to the agency.
Q. Okay. And did you keep records of which cases were mailed in to you and which agencies?
A. Yes, sir, I believe I did. I don’t know whether there were 100 percent of those records made or not. In the inception of the task force we were getting organized and there possibly early on could have been cases that I talked to him about - - I don’t think there were very many - - that possibly records
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were not made.
Q. Okay. And did you ever discuss the Librada Apodaca case with Henry Lucas?
A. Never.
Q. Were you ever mailed any material by El Paso Police Department about the Librada Apodaca case?
A. No, sir, I was not.
Q. Were you ever sent any photographs on the Librada Apodaca case?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did you know anything about the Librada Apodaca case prior to September 18th or 19th, 1984, about that case at all? Did you have any knowledge from any source whatsoever?
A. No, sir. The only source or the only thing that I could say that I knew is they had told me to go to Sierra Blanca.
Q. All right.
A. And take Henry in reference to old - - murder of an elderly lady that occurred in El Paso.
Q. Did you make telephone - - When you traveled around the state with Henry Lucas, traveled from place to place, did you have a schedule on where you were going and, you know, approximately what times you would arrive at certain locations, certain
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different cities?
Yes, sir, I did.
Q. And on a trip out to the Monahans area - - Monahans is in Ward County?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. That was a trip that you made on September 18th. Is that correct?
A. Yes, sir, it is.
Q. And was it also part of that trip itinerary that you travel on to Sierra Blanca the next day?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. That would be Sierra Blanca, Texas. Did you make arrangements or were arrangements made so that Detective Benito Perez and Sergeant Jimmy Apodaca of El Paso Police Department could meet with Henry Lucas in Sierra Blanca, Texas, on September 19th, 1984?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Who made those arrangements?
A. I’m not sure. I’m not sure. It possibly was Buster Collins, the ranger here in El Paso, or Clayton McKinney who was the ranger down in Alpine at that time that they had gotten in contact with.
Q. All right. And when you got to Sierra Blanca, Texas, the next day, September 19th, 1984,
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did you have occasion to go to the sheriff’s department itself?
Yes, sir, I did.
Q. There at the sheriff’s department did you meet Detective Benito Perez and Sergeant Jimmy Apodaca?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. Had you ever met them before?
A. No, sir, I hadn’t.
Q. Did you make Henry Lucas available to them to interview?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. Were you present while he was interviewed?
A. No, sir, I was not.
Q. After Henry Lucas was interviewed by Detective Perez and Sergeant Apodaca, were further arrangements made for his - - for Mr. Lucas’ transportation to El Paso on the following day?
A. Yes, sir, it was.
Q. Who made those arrangements? A. I’m not sure. I was instructed to finish the trip, and Henry Lucas had indicated that he would come to El Paso and follow through with this investigation. And we were scheduled to be enroute to Brownfield, Texas, the next day for court, and I’m
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Not sure whether I called in and got the approval or whether some of the El Paso officers contacted our people and requested it. I’m not sure exactly how it did all come down. But I was instructed the next day, which would have been the 20th, September the 20th of ’84, to bring him to El Paso, Texas.
Q. And after being in Brownfield, Texas, in the morning, did you arrive in El Paso, Texas, on the afternoon or early afternoon of September 20th, 1984?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. How did you-all arrive?
A. We arrived by DPS aircraft.
Q. And when you arrived, do you recall who you were met by?
A. Yes, sir. Benny Perez, Jimmy Apodaca and I believe Ed Uribe or Erby or however he pronounces his name.
Q. And after meeting with them, did you go to lunch?
A. Yes, sir, we did. We arrived sometime around approximately 12:30p.m. that afternoon, I believe.
Q. After lunch, did you-a;; proceed to the Chevron truck stop located near what would now be probably the central part of El Paso, or east?
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Yes, sir. Yes, sir, we did proceed to a truck stop.
Q. Upon arriving at the truck stop, did Detective Uribe read the defendant Henry Lucas his rights, this magistrate - - the rights, the Miranda part? A. Yes, sir, I believe he did.
Q. Did the defendant, Henry Lucas, waive those rights?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And agree to take the officers to the scene of this homicide?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was that the - - As you understood that, was that the purpose of this trip? A. Yes, yes, it was.
Q. And who was in the vehicle with Henry Lucas?
A. Sergeant Perez was driving, Detective Uribe was in the right back seat - - right rear seat, and I was in the left rear. And Henry was in the right front.
Q. Had you been to El Paso prior to September 20th, 1984?
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Yes, sir.
Q. Were you very familiar with El Paso?
A. No, sir, I wasn’t. I was familiar with Interstate 10 and that was about it at that time.
Q. Basically you have driven through El Paso a few times?
A. No, sir. The trip to El Paso in February of ’84 was my first time to ever visit El Paso.
Q. So the ride that you took in the van in February of ’84 was the first time you had ever been in El Paso?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. Were you at all familiar with the lower valley in El Paso where this crime had been committed? A. No, sir, I was not.
Q. Had you ever been in that area at any time in your life? A. No, sir.
Let me correct one thing. I made a statement that that was the first time to be in El Paso. I came through here on an airliner and changed planes at the airport going to pick up a prisoner in California. But as far as going downtown, I never did leave the airport premises here in El
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Paso, but I had been here one time before.
Q. Okay. And then in regards to this September 20th ride in the car with Detective Perez, with Detective Uribe, with Henry Lucas and yourself present, had you seen any of the photographs of the crime scene or what the house looked like? A. No, sir.
Q. Was Henry Lucas supplied with any photographs or any information here in El Paso? A. No, sir.
Q. On the trip that was taken down to the lower valley, who gave the directions on where to go and where to turn? A. Henry Lucas gave the directions? Q. How did Detective Perez act in driving the vehicle or what reactions did you notice from him, if any, during the trip? A. I didn’t notice any reactions. He was very quiet. He is a very quiet, reserved type individual and the one or two times he asked Henry if he was driving too fast for him and Henry replied no, but there was virtually no conversation at all from Detective Perez.
Q. Okay. There was some conversation from Henry Lucas?
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Yes, sir.
Q. He was giving information? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You were not taking notes of that information, were you? A. No, sir.
Q. Was that your job responsibility on any of the cases whether it was here in El Paso or anywhere else? A. No, sir, I didn’t feel like it was. It wasn’t my case.
Q. Did Detective Perez or Detective Uribe in any way indicate to Henry Lucas which was the house, where to turn, in any way at all? A. No, sir, they did not.
Q. What were you doing during this trip? A. I was sitting back just watching and listening.
Q. Did you - - Were you trying to see if you could figure out what house it was? A. Yes, sir. Henry had a way, when he got into an area, a way of beginning to shake his head and beginning to point his finger and it was as though he was sorting out things in his mind. And it was kind of intriguing to me to see if I could determine any
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way not, you know, the crime scene, the particular thing that Henry might be looking for.
Q. Were you watching for maybe any body language or any kind of indication by the officers that might tip you off that this was it? A. Well, I was sitting in the right rear seat behind Detective Perez. And I was, you know, I could see the panoramic view of both he and Henry. And Henry had given certain landmarks for the officers and certain directions to go, and when he would arrive at one of his landmarks, he would say, “Here is what I’m looking for,” and then he would tell them to continue on.
Q. Did he find the house or did he find a house?
A. He found the house.
Q. When he found it, sis you know it was the house? A. No, sir, I did not. There was a number of houses around in that area.
Q. After Henry Lucas took you to the house, did you-all return to the El Paso Police Department?
A. No, sir. I believe we went back to the truck stop at that time.
Q. And after going back to the truck stop, what
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then?
You mean where did we go?
Q. Where did you go?
A. Then I believe we came to the El Paso Police Department.
Q. All right. Was that when the videotaped confession was taken?
A. Yes, sir, sometime after we arrived.
Q. Were you present when this videotaped confession was taken, I mean, actually present in the room with Henry Lucas or present outside the room watching it being taken.
A. I did not neither sit in or on the taking of it or watch the taking of it.
Q. Then going to October 25th, 1984, approximately a month later, did Henry Lucas return to El Paso?
A. Yes, sir, he did.
Q. What was the purpose of this return trip?
A. I believe we came out for - - it was an arraignment and also the grand jury was in session at that time. And I believe our main purpose was to come for the arraignment.
Q. The arraignment?
A. I beg your pardon?
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Q. Arraignment of what? A. Well, no. Wait a minute. No, I believe we came out for the grand jury. I’m not sure.
Q. Okay. Were there other - -
A. No, I’m sorry. Wait a minute. I believe we came back because of some more possible murders that Henry said he still had out here. I believe that’s what it was for. Henry had told us he still had some uncleared cases here.
Q. All right. And while we were here or while you were here, did Henry Lucas have occasion to appear before the El Paso County Grand Jury on the evening of October 25th, 1984?
A. Yes, sir, he did.
Q. And did anyone warn him of his rights before going before the grand jury?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And what do you recall in regards to Henry Lucas’ decision whether to appear before the grand jury or not? A. It was his final decision, after some discussion, that he wanted to appear before them.
Q. Was he offered an opportunity to consult with an attorney? A. Yes, sir, I believe he was.
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Q. Did you recall what his response to that was?
A. He did not want an attorney.
Q. Did he want to talk to anyone about whether or not or why he should appear before a grand jury?
A. Yes, sir. To the best of my memory, I believe Henry wanted to call Sergeant Bob Prince, and I placed the phone call for him and he and Sergeant Prince talked. And then after the telephone conversation, it was Henry’s decision that he would go in and appear before the El Paso County Grand Jury.
Q. Did anybody force him to talk to the grand jury? A. No, sir.
Q. Did anybody promise him anything in exchange for testifying before the grand jury?
A. No, sir.
Q. Were these involvements in September of 1984 and October of 1984 your only involvement in the Librada Apodaca case? A. September and October, yes, sir.
MR. MOODY: Pass the witness.
BY MR. PONTON:
Q. Mr. Smith, my name is Rod Ponton. We met
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yesterday, did we not? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And this is my co-counsel, Doris Sipes, here. I don’t know if you met her before. We are court appointed to represent Mr. Lucas in this case.
What day was your first involvement with Henry Lucas that you can recall in any way, shape or form?
The first involvement with Henry Lucas - - and I do not know the date. It would have been in the early fall or, well, late summer, perhaps, of 1983 - - when Sheriff Jim Boutwell of Williamson County and Lieutenant Dale Swafford with Round Rock Police Department and myself went to Stone- - - Montaque, Texas, to the country jail and there we talked to Henry Lucas about some cases, some murder that had occurred and disappearance of a person that had occurred in Williamson County.
Q. Who were those other officers you said you went with? A. It was Sheriff Boutwell and Lieutenant Dale Swafford, S W A F F O R D.
Q. All right. Now, had you talked with Jim Boutwell and Dale Swafford any prior to going up there about Henry Lucas’ possible involvement in the
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Cases in Williamson County?
No, sir, I don’t believe I had. They called me one afternoon and told me that there was a man - -
Q. And they told you what, sir? A. They told me there was a man in Montaque, Texas, that was saying that he had committed a lot of murders, and I believe Sheriff W. F. Conway had been in contact with Sheriff Jim Boutwell about Henry. And the sheriff - - I was requested to go with them. And prior to that, there had been no conversation about Henry’s involvement in any of the cases as far as those officers talking to me.
Q. Do you know if there was any kind of prior friendship or relationship of any kind between Jim Boutwell and W. F. Conway?
A. No, sir. I did not know Sheriff Conway at that time and I don’t know about their friendship or anything like that.
Q. Now, how many murders in Williamson County did you-all go up to Montaque County to question Henry Lucas about?
A. I’m not sure. We had had several, I believe, unsolved murders in that county.
Q. Weren’t those popularly known as the I-35 murders?
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Yes, sir. Sheriff Boutwell, a few years prior to this, had held an Interstate 35 homicide meeting there in Austin at our facilities there at the DPS requesting officers to come in from all over Texas and Oklahoma considering murders along Interstate 35.
Q. Was that because he had several unsolved murders along I-35 in Williamson County? A. Well, not just him but also Travis County and several counties in the surrounding area that has Interstate 35 running through it.
Q. Did you attend the conference?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. Do you recall when that conference was?
A. No, sir, I do not.
Q. Do you recall what year?
A. No, sir.
Q. Was that a conference that was held when Boutwell was sheriff? A. Yes, sir.
Q. How long had you been stationed in Williamson County prior to going up to talk to Henry Lucas in the late summer or early fall of ’83?
A. I came there in May of 1979. I did not take over that county until, I believe it was - - I’m not
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sure. It was probably ’81 or ’82, somewhere along in there. There was another ranger by the name of Joe Davis who was stationed in Austin at that - - back when I first got there, and he worked that county and I didn’t take that county until he transferred and then I picked that county up.
Q. And you can’t recall how many unsolved murders were in Williamson County that you-all had that you-all wanted to question Henry Lucas about when you went up to Montaque County?
A. No, sir. I’m thinking possibly - - I’m not sure. Possibly one murder and a disappearance, and I believe - - of the disappearance of a female.
Q. Um-hum.
A. That’s the reason Lieutenant Swafford went along.
Q. Because of the disappearance of that female? A. Yes, sir, I believe so.
Q. Was her name Carolyn Cervenka? A. Yes, sir, it was.
Q. Do you recall the name of the murder - - possible murderer? A. It possibly was the one that was referred to as the orange socks case.
Q. That was the case that Mr. Lucas was tried
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on for capital murder in Tom Green County on a change of venue from Williamson County in late 1984, wasn’t it? A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. The summer of 1984, excuse me. Is that correct? A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. That’s the case where Mr. Lucas was given the death penalty by the jury in Tom Green County?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. That case is still pending before the Court of Criminal Appeals, is it not? A. Yes, sir, I believe it is.
Q. Now, do you know what contact Jim Boutwell had with W. F. Conway regarding Carolyn Cervenka and orange socks before you-all went up to Montaque County?
A. No, sir, I know nothing about any contact - -
Q. How did you - -
A. - - that Boutwell and Sheriff Conway had.
Q. Do you know if Swafford and Conway had any contact?
A. I don’t know.
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Q. Did you talk to Texas Ranger Phil Ryan, the Texas Ranger assigned to Decatur, Texas, who had been investigating Henry Lucas? Did you talk to Phil Ryan any before you went up to Montaque County? A. Before I went up?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. I don’t remember for sure whether I did on not. I don’t - - I don’t believe I did.
Q. As a Texas Ranger, were you familiar with any reports your fellow Texas Ranger Phil Ryan had previously made concerning Henry Lucas confessing to killing hundreds of people across the country?
A. I had not seen any reports that Phil Ryan had made at that time, no, sir.
Q. Had you seen any reports of any type whatsoever mentioning or regarding Henry Lucas prior to going up to Montaque County on that trip? A. No, sir, I had never heard of Henry Lee Lucas until the sheriff called me that afternoon.
Q. You hadn’t noted any of the press reports or anything regarding him?
A. No, sir.
Q. How did you get up to Williamson County - - I mean, to Montaque County? A. We went in my state vehicle.
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Q. On the trip up, did you and Sheriff Boutwell and Lieutenant Swafford talk about the two cases and Henry Lucas?
A. No, sir, I don’t believe we did.
Q. You didn’t talk about those two cases at all on the way up there? A. I think it was just general conversation going up and maybe, you know, how we would approach Henry, you know.
These cases that they had talked to Henry about, I knew nothing about those cases. I had not worked on them and I didn’t know anything about the cases.
Q. When you say, “these cases that they had talked to Henry about,” had Boutwell or Swafford talked to Henry about the Cervenka case or the orange socks case any before that trip?
A. I don’t know. I don’t think so.
Q. Do you know if anybody had?
A. I don’t know.
Q. Do you know if any information about either of those cases was shared with Phil Ryan or Conway or any of the investigators up in Montaque County before you-all drove up there?
A. I just don’t know.
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Q. Where was Henry Lucas in Montaque County when you-all arrived up there? A. He was at the Montaque County jail.
Q. And do you recall what time of the day you-all arrived there?
A. I believe it was in the afternoon. I had car trouble going up, and I believe it was later on in the afternoon. It wasn’t, you know, in the evening time, but it was in the latter part of the afternoon.
Q. When you arrived there, did you-all proceed to go talk to Henry Lucas or what did you do the first thing? A. The first thing, we talked to some deputies. I don’t believe Sheriff Conway was around there at that time and seemed like there was, you know, we had to wait for somebody to get there.
Q. Was Texas Ranger Phil Ryan there? A. No, sir.
Q. After awhile were you-all able to make arrangements to go in and interview Henry Lucas?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And did the three of you-all go in there to do that?
A. Yes, sir.
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Q. And was that at the interview room there at the Montaque County jail?
A. It was more like an office or something there, it had desks, seemed like, and some chairs and all. I mean, and office desk. It wasn’t just a room, it was more like someone’s office.
Q. Did you know if Kim Boutwell had checked up any on Henry Lucas’ background before you-all went up there to interview him?
A. No, sir, I do not.
Q. Do you recall Jim Boutwell telling you that Henry Lucas had confessed to killing several hundred people by that time? A. No, sir.
Q. Do you know if Jimmy Boutwell had ever interviewed Henry Lucas before that time you were there with him?
A. I’m not sure, but I don’t think he had.
Q. Were you and Jim Boutwell and Lieutenant Swafford all present when you-all interviewed Henry Lucas about orange socks and Cervenka? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And was all of that conversation tape recorded? A. I do not know.
Q. Was any of it?
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I don’t know whether they specifically interviewed him about those cases. I can’t say for sure that it was those cases or whether it was just if he had been in that area and if he had committed any murders down there, to be truthful with you.
I can’t remember specifically whether it was those cases or not or just, “Have you ever been Williamson County? Have you traveled through that area?” and things like that. I was not the lead officer in the interview with Lucas that afternoon.
Q. But when Boutwell and Swafford were there to talk to Henry Lucas lead investigators, the cases they had in mind that were unsolved in their county were - - two main cases would have been orange socks and Cervenka. Wouldn’t that be correct?
A. Going back - - And I mentioned orange socks and Cervenka early on awhile ago.
Q. Yes, sir.
A. But in reflecting back, I do not specifically remember of those cases at that time were pointed out or not. Detective Swafford had had some murders in Round Rock on Interstate 35 and off Interstate 35, and it could - - I’m thinking that it was - - at that time it was more or less lust gathering general information about Henry’s travels,
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If he had been - - if he was familiar with that area and then possibly going into touching on some of those cases. I don’t know.
Q. Was any of that interview recorded? A. I don’t know.
Q. Do you remember ever listening to any part of a taped interview with Henry Lucas since the day you were there of a taping that would have been taken that day?
A. I listened to the taped interview between Sheriff Boutwell and Henry. I listened to that, but I can’t remember. I’m thinking that there was, but I can’t be for sure that there was. Possibly the sheriff taped that first interview. I don’t know.
Q. Do you know where that copy of that tape might be at this time?
A. No, sir. If there is, in fact, one that exists, I do not know.
Q. During that interview, did Henry Lucas mention that he had been involved with any murders in your neck of the woods? A. Henry - - All this is vague in my mind because it happened quite some time ago. But Henry, I remember him talking about being through that area, he and Ottis being in that area at times. I remember
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him talking about traveling down to San Antonio and he was high on San Antonio, talking about going through there numerous times and passing back and forth through the Austin area.
Q. And when he was talking about these travels, did he mention to you that he had been involved in any murders? A. Yes, sir. It seemed like Henry said he did have some, what he called cases down there in that area.
Q. How many cases did he say he had in that area? A. I don’t remember if he ever said x number or anything.
MR. MOODY: Your Honor, I would like to object to the general line of questioning about, you know, murders, you know.
THE COURT: I’ll sustain the objection. Let’s stick to this one.
Go ahead, Mr. Ponton.
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) Did Henry Lucas tell you that he was involved in killing Carolyn Cervenka on that first interview, sir? A. I don’t know whether he did or not. I don’t think he did.
Q. Did he subsequently tell you or Jim Boutwell
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that he was involved in killing Carolyn Cervenka?
MR. MOODY: Your Honor, could we get down to the Librada Apodaca case and some questions on that?
THE COURT: Now, Mr. Ponton, you know, unless you’re going to connect this up some way, let’s try to get to what we are doing here.
MR. PONTON: Okay, Your Honor.
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) What contact had you had as a Texas Ranger with the El Paso Police Department or the 34th Judicial District Attorney’s office or the El Paso Sheriff’s Department prior to February of 1984 regarding any unsolved homicides in El Paso County, Texas? A. Would you rephrase that question again?
What contact?
Q. Had you had any involvement at all of any type with either the DA’s office, the sheriff’s office or the police department here in El Paso regarding any unsolved El Paso area murders prior to your trip you testified that you took out here in February of ’84?
A. As far as having any contact with the DA’s office or PD, no, sir. I don’t believe I did.
Q. Or the sheriff’s department?
A. No, sir, I don’t think so. Well, I had - - I
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had met Lieutenant David Marquez.
Q. Yes, sir.
A. Over in Monroe, Louisiana, at a conference, I believe that occurred before I came up here, but we didn’t talk about cases because El Paso was so far removed from Austin, Texas.
Q. Was that Monroe, Louisiana, conference the Henry Lee Lucas serial murder conference that was held in January of ’84?
A. I’m not sure when the - - I’m not sure when it was held, but, yes, it was held in Monroe, Louisiana.
Q. And there was also a Henry Lee Lucas serial murder conference held in Williamson County, wasn’t there? A. I believe there was, at the DPS.
Q. All right. And at these conferences, these would be places where officers would get together to discuss cases that Henry Lee Lucas might be involved in. Is that correct?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
A. When was the last such conference - - Where was the last such conference that you attended?
A. Possibly there in Austin.
Q. Wasn’t there one about a month ago in
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Official Court Reporter
Phoenix, Arizona?
A month ago?
Q. Yes, sir, regarding serial murders where Henry Lee Lucas was part of the agenda as far as a person who committed a lot of serial murders?
A. I’m not aware of that conference.
Q. Are you aware of a conference about three months ago in Oklahoma City on serial murders sponsored by the Regional Organized Crime Information Center from Nashville, Tennessee, where Henry Lee Lucas was one of the main topics? A. No, sir, I did not attend that one.
Q. Are you familiar with that one?
A. No, sir.
Q. Are you familiar with a conference held in Shreveport, Louisiana, on Henry Lucas?
A. No, sir.
Q. How many Lucas conferences have you attended? A. The one in Monroe and the one in Austin.
Q. Okay. Was the one in Austin before or after the one in Monroe? A. I believe it was after. I believe it was after.
Q. Do you have any materials from either one of those conferences?
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No, sir, I don’t.
Q. Where there any handouts or any synopses or anything of that nature given to the attendant - - the persons in attendance of those conferences?
A. Yes, sir, there were some handouts given and mainly officers got up there and discussed their - - Some of the officers had handouts, some of them didn’t.
Q. And officers would discuss their unsolved cases?
A. Yes, sir. Q. How would Henry Lucas be tied to these unsolved cases at these conferences?
A. Well, he wasn’t tied to them at the conferences.
Q. Would you or any other officer get up to speak about the kinds of cases that Henry Lucas had claimed to be involved in?
A. Yes, sir. There was - - It was talked about certain characteristics, habits, things such as the brand of cigarettes, brand of his favorite beer and things like this would be discussed by us.
Q. Did Henry Lucas ever speak at those conferences?
A. No, sir.
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Q. Did you ever make arrangements to videotape Henry Lucas prior to attending those conferences so that a videotape of Henry Lucas could be shown to the officers attending the conference?
A. I made no arrangements for any videotapes or anything like that. That was all done by Sergeant Bob Prince and Sheriff Jim Boutwell.
Q. But those videotapes were, in fact, made, were they not, by - -
A. I’m not sure.
Q. Did you ever observe any videotapes at a conference?
MR. MOODY: Your Honor, once again I’m going to object. If we can get back to where we are going, you know, if we can get back to El Paso and out of Monroe, Louisiana, and all those places.
THE COURT: I’m going to overrule that objection. Go ahead.
Q. (BY MR.PONTON) Did you ever observe any such videotapes at any conference regarding Henry Lucas that you attended?
A. No, sir, I don’t think I did.
Q. Are you aware if those videotapes still exist?
A. I don’t know.
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Q. When was the Henry Lucas task force begun?
A. There again, I’m not sure. It was sometime in the - - maybe November or sometime in ’83. It was in the latter part.
Q. I believe you testified in response to Mr. Moody’s question that the task force was created at the request of Sheriff Jim Boutwell to the Department of Public Safety. Is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you were assigned to the task force at the beginning. Is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. When was the task force disbanded?
A. It would have been possibly sometime in April of ’85.
Q. Would that have been - -
A. April or May.
Q. April or May of ’85?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Would that be about the time that the Herald Dallas Times began to publish articles where a reporter named Hugh Aynesworth had uncovered some information that Henry Lucas could not be in all the places he claimed to have been and that perhaps he had been in prison on certain days that he confessed
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to crimes and other things of this nature?
No, sir, I think it would have been a little bit before then.
Q. Okay. So is it your testimony that the task force was disbanded before any of those Dallas Times Herald articles were published?
A. Let me put it this way. Considering when the task force was disbanded, Sheriff - - I believe his name is Jack Harwell with the McLennan County Sheriff’s Department came and served papers on Henry and took him to Waco for a grand jury investigation, and Henry was no longer there in Williamson County.
The task force was still, I believe at that time, considered workable until some rulings and things came out and lawsuits were filed and whatever.
Q. At that time that Henry Lucas left Williamson County to go to McLennan County, isn’t it your understanding that Henry Lucas went to Waco and appeared before the McLennan County Grand Jury and recanted all his confessions that he had given to the Texas Ranger task force?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you know of any confessions at any crime that Henry Lucas has made since that time, since he appeared before the McLennan County Grand Jury?
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No, sir, I don’t.
Q. To your knowledge, he has made none. Is that correct?
A. That’s correct.
Q. A couple of officers from El Paso, Texas, went to Williamson County in December of 1983 to interview Henry Lucas. Do you remember that visit?
A. From El Paso County? Q. Yes, sir. A fellow named Greg Lucas?
A. Yes, sir. Vaguely I remember Greg Lucas being there, yes, sir.
Q. Do you recall talking to Henry Lucas about his involvement in any - - in those cases that Greg Lucas was going to talk to Henry about?
A. No, sir.
Q. Do you remember Greg Lucas asking you to ask Henry Lucas if he’d committed any murders in El Paso?
A. No, sir, I don’t remember.
Q. Wasn’t that the type of request you were getting on an almost daily basis from different law enforcement agencies around the country?
A. No, sir. What we are getting at that time
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was people who wanted to come in and talk to Lucas and wanted to come down and we were setting up appointments.
Q. And that was one of your main job functions, wasn’t it, to set up appointments for other officers to come talk to Henry? A. Well, at that time I was still - -and I never did quit working on my counties. I was still working. And early on we were working - - I was working with the sheriff’s department on another murder. We were going - - and this concerned Lucas and Toole, and we were going to Florida at that time early on.
And I - -I didn’t make - - set up a lot of appointments. I just didn’t do a lot of the office work there.
Q. Who was?
A. Sergeant Prince.
Q. Was it only later that you began setting up the appointments for these officers to interview Henry Lucas?
A. I helped. I helped set up some appointments but not on a regular basis. I mainly traveled with Henry and talked to him on mail-in cases after they started coming in.
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Q. How many mail-in cases did the Lucas task force receive from the fall of 1983 until April or May of 1985?
A. I’m not sure.
Q. Can you give me an approximation, please?
A. Well, there were a lot of them that were sent back that were never - - Henry was never interviewed by those cases, but they were probably - - I’m going to say probably 300 was a very conservative figure.
Q. Of cases that were mailed in?
A. Or 200, somewhere along in there, two to three hundred.
Q. Two to three hundred cases mailed into the Lucas task force for Henry to be interviewed about them, whether or not he was involved in them. Is that correct?
A. Yes, sir, that’s counting the total figure that the task force was active.
Q. Now, you testified there were some cases that were mailed in that were mailed back without interviewing Henry Lucas?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Would those be cases where you made some kind of determination that it was impossible for
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Henry to have committed those?
No, sir. On some of them that I - - You see, when this thing started - -
Q. Yes, sir.
A. - - we were getting organized. We weren’t organized for this type operation, and we began setting up filing systems and keeping records and things like that. Early on Sergeant Prince had knowledge, you know, of setting this up.
And - - But getting back to your question, I at times possibly stated opinion on my reports, but I did not make any type of opinion as regards to Henry’s innocence or guilt, whether I felt like he was guilty or not, to any response to the other officers that were sending in cases.
Q. Yet there were some cases mailed in that you wouldn’t interview Henry about. Why would that determination be made that you wouldn’t even interview Henry about those cases? A. Well, those cases that I’m talking about that I wouldn’t - - that I didn’t interview him about were cases that were still in the files that we had no chance to interview him about after the - - Henry went to Waco.
Q. Well, would it be your testimony, then, that
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Every case what was mailed in into the task force you either questioned Henry about or it was sitting there waiting in the files when Henry left to go to Waco?
Yes, sir.
Q. Now, you learned, didn’t you, that Henry Lucas was in prison in Michigan from 1960 to 1975 except for about a year in 1970 or ’71, didn’t you?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What would happen if somebody sent you a case that occurred in 1968?
A. Well, it would have been sent back saying that Henry was in prison.
Q. All right.
A. There would be no need to interview him on that type of case.
Q. So those were some of the cases that you might send back without interviewing Henry. Would that be correct? A. Yes, sir, very possible. If there was some that came in like that.
Q. Did your investigation of Henry Lucas include finding out where he had - - where h you could confirm he had previously been in his life since his release from prison?
A. We requested information from all law
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Official Court Reporter
Enforcement agencies that if they had any knowledge of Henry’s travels, any documentation where he might be that they get in touch with us. This was made known in these conferences. This was made known to law enforcement agencies throughout the world - - I mean, throughout the United States as they came in and especially in the area where we - - Henry said he had lived. We tried to solicit information the best we could.
Q. What would you do with a case that came in that occurred in a place different from where Henry Lucas said he was at a particular time? Would you mail that case back? A. We would give this to officers together. If Henry said like on December the 25th, 1981, he killed a lady in California, on December the 25th, 1981, he killed a lady in Florida, then we knew that Henry could not be in two places at one time and we would get those officers together and let them work it out. We would make them aware of the contradiction.
Q. Then did you become aware of a case involving a victim named Ruth Ann Manguno which allegedly occurred in St. Tammy Parish, Louisiana, on May 26th, 1983?
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I’m not as familiar with those cases in those files as Sergeant Prince was because I traveled a lot and I didn’t keep up with statistics and all of this information. But I am aware since that there was several murders that Henry claimed that he had done in St. Tammy Parish, Louisiana.
Q. You’re aware that the crime that Mr. Lucas is accused of committing here in El Paso County occurred on May 27th, 1983. Are you familiar with that?
A. Yes, sir, that’s what I have heard.
Q. Do you know if you or the Texas Ranger task force ever put the St. Tammy Parish officers in touch with the El Paso County officers so they could figure out between the two of them which crime Henry had committed, whether it was the one on May 26th in St Tammy Parish or the one on May 27th in El Paso County? Do you know if you ever did that?
A. No, sir, I didn’t.
Q. All right. Do you recall whether anyone else in the task force did that? A. I’m not sure. I’m not sure that there could be a conflict there if it was a day later or 24 hours later or whatever. I don’t know the time that this lady was killed, but Henry was telling us that he
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could drive a long ways because he drank coffee, he very seldom ever slept, and if he had anybody with him, that they would share part of the driving, mainly Ottis Toole and others, and they just drove constantly, hard.
Q. And that would be driving from coast to coast?
A. St. Tammy Parish to El Paso.
Q. No, not that, but I’m talking about the other offenses you interviewed Henry Lucas about committing. For him to have committed all of those, it would require a lot of driving back and forth from coast to coast, wouldn’t it have?
A. Well, that’s what he was telling us he was doing. And from some of the travel records that we were able to obtain about his travels, he was in numerous states numerous times just traveling back and forth.
Q. The DPS Lucas task force ended up putting together a synopsis case book of all the cases they claim that were cleared because of Lucas’ confessions. Is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And that original synopsis book contained approximately 266 cleared cases based on Lucas’
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confessions. Does that seem approximately right?
The - - That was based on information that we received from other officers stating that they confirmed or believed that Lucas did commit their crimes. And those - - those synopsis were used for the purpose of telling who the person was, how they were killed and pertinent information to be obtained from the methods on which Henry said that he killed people.
Q. That total number of cleared cases has shrunk dramatically since the issuance of those synopsis, hasn’t it?
A. I’m not sure how much it shrunk. We have contacted a lot of officers. We read the press and the press says it’s shrunk, but we have talked to a lot of officers and they are still of the opinion that Henry was telling the truth, telling them the truth.
Q. You had more people trying to talk to Henry Lucas than he had time in the day, didn’t you?
A. No, sir. We tried to schedule them. When people would call in we were asking them how many cases that they had, how many murders or disappearances or whatever it was that they wanted to talk to Henry about, and we scheduled their time
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according to the cases that they wanted to talk over with Henry. And that’s pretty well the way it was handled.
If a person had one case, we, you know, we would schedule it like from 9:00 to 10:30 or something in the morning, and we were trying to schedule people that just had one case, we were trying to schedule them for the morning, and maybe people that just had one case we would schedule them in the afternoon. And then sometimes people like Houston, they had a lot of cases and we would schedule them for, you know, over a period of days.
It was according, you know, how many cases that the people wanted to talk to Henry about is the way that we scheduled our time.
Q. How many weeks or months in advance did interviews with Henry Lucas have to be scheduled when the demand was the heaviest? A. On over in 1984, of course, it went up. At first, you know, we were pretty much taking them - - you know, they would call in and, you know, two or three days later come on in.
But in ’84, as it went on and the Monroe conference, and I think some of the officers might have went back to their home states and had
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miniconferences and the people that had came and talked to Henry and found out that Henry would be in a certain area, then the - - I won’t say the demand for Henry grew, but the more officers wanted to talk to Henry about, you know, their - - some of their unsolved murders that had similar methods of occurring, some that Henry had said that he had done.
And so there on over into ’84 we were, you know, we were behind to some extent, maybe - - I don’t know - - maybe it got up to three months, 90 days or maybe a little more than that, maybe four months. We were booked, you know, behind.
Q. So then in 1984 if El Paso, say, wanted to talk to Henry Lucas, they might have to make an appointment for three or four months away to be able to get in and to actually sit down face-to-face with Henry Lucas to see if he was involved in the case? A. No, sir. Texas officers were given preference over any of the out-of-staters. In other words, we took care of our own people in our own state before we did those out-of-state.
Q. Then would it be fair to say, then, if I were from California and I wanted to talk to Henry in 1984, I might have had to wait three or four months? A. It’s possible, yes, sir.
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Q. The task force did provide Henry Lucas to be interviewed by out-of-state officers, didn’t they? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And Henry Lucas traveled to several other states, didn’t he? A. Yes, sir, he did.
Q. Did Henry Lucas travel to any other states before December 20th of ’83 when Greg Lucas came to see him?
A. I’m not sure. We made a trip to Florida with Henry and I’m not sure when that was. I’m thinking that it was either, you know, possibly December of ’83 or maybe even January. I’m not sure. I’d just have to go back through my weekly activity logs and see.
Q. Do you still have your weekly activity logs for the period of time you were involved with the Lucas task force?
A. I think I have most of them. I just moved and you know what does - - I just moved from Austin to Waco. And I think I still do, though.
Q. Do you have them here today?
A. No, sir, do not.
Q. Do you have the original copies of the task - -
A. Now - -
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Q. Go ahead. Excuse me.
A. I’m sorry. There’re possibly, possibly, I don’t know, possibly, they may be in those records there.
Q. All right.
A. I’m not sure.
MR. PONTON: May I approach the witness, Your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
Q (BY MR. PONTON) Here is a page from the mail-in log. You’re familiar with that, aren’t you?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. That’s not what you’re referring to as far as your daily log, are you, sir?
A. No, sir.
Q. Do you know where the original is of this mail-in log?
A. It’s probably with Captain Bob Prince in Houston, Texas.
Q. All right. Do you know where the original is of the interview log?
A. That would also be with those records, and I believe he has custody of those.
Q. For the benefit of the Judge, let me had him a sheet of this, and let me ask you a couple of
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questions about that.
That piece of paper that I handed the Judge which I have just showed you, which came from a file given to me by Mr. Moody, is a page out of the mail-in log that was kept by you at the Lucas task force headquarters there in Williamson County. Is that correct? A. Well, it was kept at my office. You would say, yes, that I - - that it was in all our custody, Sergeant Prince and myself.
Q. And what this was for was that when agencies would make a request that Henry Lucas be interviewed by you and they didn’t want to come to Texas, they would make arrangements with you to mail in their files or a synopsis to you for the purposes of you interviewing Henry Lucas. Is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And then you would make this log based upon when the - - you received the file, and the agency that sent you the file, the victim that was being investigated and the date of the offense and the date of the interview and the results, et cetera. Is that correct? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And the - - all of the offenses in this whole
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file were logged by you when the files would come in to you. Is that correct?
Either - - Well, yes, either by myself or possibly - - We had a secretary and she would possibly log them in or maybe Sergeant Prince might log them in. I’d just have to look at the file and I believe I would recognize the handwriting. I know mine.
Q. And the - - almost every one of the interviews that were actually done with Henry Lucas on these mail-in cases were done by you. Is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, here in this file, for instance, on this page, we are talking about numbers 162 and 163, 1-7-85, that these were received from Bill LaSalle, and the Ohio State Patrol and some others. Now, you don’t have an interview date or a return date on the file or who-all covered the interview. Please tell me what that would indicate.
A. That would indicate that possibly he never was interviewed on those.
Q. What I’m curious about is did you make good notes every time you interviewed Henry Lucas on a mail-in offense in this log?
A. Possibly. Possibly I did. I don’t know.
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Q. Possibly you did make good notes?
A. Well, yes. Possibly I did. It was - - You see, I would get behind.
Q. Don’t we all.
A. And traveling and things like that with Henry, I would get behind. And I would come in and I would talk to him about some and lay them up to one side and maybe have to go off on a trip, come back and get them in the mail, and then, you know - -
THE COURT: Mr. Ponton, let’s see if we can find a place to stop for the evening.
MR. PONTON: This would be as good as place as any, Your Honor.
THE COURT: I think we all need to stop for the evening. We will start again - - You know, this coming up Friday. I have a - - I have scheduled a lot of criminal cases Friday, tomorrow afternoon. How long do you think this officer is going to be here?
MR. PONTON: I can anticipate his cross-examination continuing for the rest of tomorrow morning, possibly being concluded at that time, Your Honor.
THE COURT: What do you think, Mr. Moody?
MR. MOODY: I don’t have any more questions
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of him.
THE COURT: Well, the reason I’m asking is that if we are going to go on, I would rather go on with him so he can get out of town. It would be a shame to keep him here over the weekend.
MR. MOODY: You’re closing on your home or - -
Yes, sir. I have a closing on my home Monday.
THE COURT: Well, I would like to get you out of here is that I’m trying to do. See, what I’m saying, there is a possibility I car reschedule what I have got tomorrow afternoon and try to get it rescheduled or most of it rescheduled for Monday morning. We are going to start at 1:00 Monday. That’s going to give me time to do some things I had set for Monday, so - - Well, let’s see if we can do it. I’m going to get this officer home.
MR. PONTON: I can’t guarantee to You Honor that I’ll be done with him in three hours, but I will do my best.
THE COURT: Well, I’m going to force you. I didn’t ask for any guarantees. I’m going to get this officer home. You’re going to be home, I guarantee that.
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(An evening recess was taken.)
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THE STATE OF TEXAS )
)
Vs. ) CAUSE NO. 43314-120
)
HENRY LEE LUCAS )
heard on
SEPTEMEBER 12, 1986
PROPERTY OF ROD PONTON
ATTORNEY AT LAW
COPY 2
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTED
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
For the State: WILLIAM MOODY
First Assistant District Attorney
City-county Building
El Paso, TX 79901
RICHARD JEWKES
Assistant District Attorney
City-county Building
El Paso, TX 79901
CAROL PENNOCK
Assistant District Attorney
City-county Building
El Paso, TX 79901
For the Defendant: ROD PONTON
Attorney at Law
Suite 505
Caples Building
El Paso, TX 79901
DORIS SIPES
1011 North Mesa
El Paso, TX 79901
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTED
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
WITNESSES PAGE
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EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
WITNESSES PAGE
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EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
EXHIBIT DESCRIPTION MARKED IDENTIFIED OFFERED RED’D
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTED
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
IN THE DISTRICT OF EL PASO COUNTY, TEXAS
THE STATE OF TEXAS )
)
Vs. ) CAUSE NO. 43314-120
)
HENRY LEE LUCAS )
BE IT REMEMBERED that on the 12th day of September, 1986, beginning at 8:40 a.m., came on to be heard the continuation of pretrial motions in the above styled and numbered case, before the HONORABLE BRUNSON MOORE, Judge Presiding in and for the 120th Judicial District Court, and that the same was reported by Meryl Wersinger, Certified Shorthand Reporter and Notary Public in and for the County Court at Law Number Four, El Paso County, Texas, and that the following proceedings were had as follows, to-wit:
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTED
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
THE COURT: All right. Mr. Ponton, do you have your ending place?
MOODY: Let’s get started. Let’s get started here.
MR. PONTON: I think I can get started with that, Your Honor.
BY MR. PONTON
Q. Officer, Smith, you came to El Paso for the first time regarding Henry Lucas in February of 1984. Is that correct?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. And at that time you went with Henry Lucas and Greg Lucas, Captain Freddie Bonilla and other El Paso officers to go look at some purported crime scenes on some people Henry Lucas allegedly had killed. Is that correct?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. A couple of those persons that you were looking - - A couple of those that you-all were looking at on your first trip, supposedly were a couple of white females that Henry Lucas had picked up at a truck stop here in town. Is that correct?
A. I’m not familiar with the cases that they
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
were looking at. The only thing that I know, there was a man and a woman somewhere out around Horizon City that they were interested in and Henry had told them about another case out here in the desert. And that’s the only ones that I, you know, sticks in my mind that I recall.
Q. Do you remember Henry Lucas being interrogated at all about possible cases he was involved in involving the abduction of two white females one day after another in June of 1983?
A. No, sir.
Q. Do you have any recollection of what the results were of that trip that you made with Henry Lucas in February of 1984?
A. You mean as far as did it - -
Q. As far as whether the officers were able to confirm Henry Lucas’ involvement in those alleged murder cases.
A. Of the two females?
Q. Yes - - Well, no. Of any of those cases that you-all were looking at in February when you were here with Henry Lucas. Do you know if any of those were confirmed as having been committed by Henry Lucas?
A. No. There were no cases confirmed.
Page 749
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Q. On that February 13th and 14th trip?
A. That’s correct.
Q. Didn’t you-all spend all of that day really trying to find where Henry Lucas said he dumped a couple bodies in the desert? Didn’t you-all drive across to two different desert areas of El Paso to try to get some specific directions from Henry Lucas where he’s allegedly dumped some bodies? Wasn’t that one of the purposes of that trip that day?
A. Yes. We didn’t spend all day, I don’t believe. We spent, you know, a considerable part of the day, but not the entire day.
Q. Was it your understanding, Officer Smith, that this February ’84 trip was a followup to the interview that had been done in Georgetown to talk to Henry?
A. I’m not sure, but I believe that’s correct.
Q. Do you remember seeing the El Paso officer when he was in Georgetown in December of ’83?
A. Yes, sir, I saw him briefly.
Q. There were a couple of them, actually, weren’t there?
A. Well, I believe Greg Lucas is the only one that sticks out in my mind, kind of a big guy,
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
blonde-headed?
Q. Yes. Now, on that trip that was taken by you and these other officers in February of 1984, that trip was taken in a van, wasn’t it?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. It was a van loaned to Greg Lucas by a local car dealer?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did it have a table in it and some high-backed chairs to sit in in the back?
A. Yes.
Q. On that trip do you remember Greg Lucas and the other officers asking Henry about - - not just about specific alleged murders but about any El Paso murders? A. They were - - The only murders that stick in my mind were the two Horizon City murders, and Lucas telling them about leaving the body in the desert out here west of El Paso toward the New Mexico state line.
Q. All right. Do you understand that Horizon City is at the eastern edge of El Paso?
A. Yes, sir, I do now.
Q. Is it not your understanding that that day that those officers were looking to see if there were a couple of bodies allegedly dumped near Horizon City?
Page 751
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Yes, sir, they drove Henry out in that area.
Q. And they had gone out to that area and that area had been apparently recently graded or had dirt work done on it or something?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And it wasn’t the same or apparently it wasn’t the same as before. Is that correct?
A. That’s correct. I remember some conversation about the road, some work being done on the road and - -
Q. And then the conversations about another murder where a body was dumped in the desert toward New Mexico, was that not a separate offence, allegedly?
A. I believe it was.
Q. Now, once again I’ll ask you, do you remember if they were not asking Henry Lucas to tell them about any or all of the El Paso area murders he may have been involved in?
A. Yes, sir, I believe - - I believe they probably would have asked him, you know, about any and all.
Q. And you spent almost all of that day with Henry Lucas, didn’t you?
A. Yes, sir.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Q. Do you recall Henry Lucas making any mention that day other than what you testified to yesterday - - Well, on that day do you recall Henry Lucas making any mention whatsoever about this Librada Apodaca case?
A. No.
Q. In February of ’84?
A. No.
Q. And that was the trip that took place on both February 13th and February 14th, 1984. Do you remember that, that it took place - - that part of it took place the next day?
A. I was thinking it was the 13th.
Q. Well, you might be right.
A. It could have possibly been. I don’t know whether they kept him here that night overnight or not. Possibly we did. I’m not sure. I’m not sure. I’d just have to go back through my records to see, but it’s very possible that we did stay overnight here.
Q. And do you recall, on that trip in February of 1984 that the persons that Henry Lucas allegedly had abducted and left in the desert toward New Mexico supposedly were abducted in June of 1983. Do you remember that?
A. No, sir.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Q. Do you remember conversations with Henry Lucas where he was talking about picking these people up at that truck stop and taking them out into the desert toward New Mexico?
A. It seems like that Henry was telling them about someone that he picked up there at a truck stop and taken out that direction, and it was a female.
And to the best of my knowledge, Henry was the one that had initiated the fact that he had taken someone out there in the desert, what he called the desert. And we had gone out that afternoon and he tried, you know, to find the location where he had left the body.
Q. Were you aware in February of 1984 that two New Mexico deputy sheriffs named Archuleta and Engelking had engaged in an extensive telephone interview with Henry Lucas when he was in Montaque County, Texas, regarding the same type of offense?
A. No, sir, I was not aware of that.
Q. And were you aware that they questioned Henry Lucas about picking somebody up at the truck stop here in El Paso and taking the body out near Deming and then probably dumping it somewhere out on a missile range, a white female?
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
No, sir. I’m not aware of what took place in Montaque when the officers were contacting him up there. I do not know who contacted him or what was, you know, what was talked about up there.
Q. Did you subsequently learn anything about that alleged offense or those officers or - - when you came out here on the trips to El Paso?
A. Henry had talked about a body being up in, I believe he said, the White Sands area or somewhere up there.
But, of course, on that situation, we were not traveling out-of-state and it would have been up to the officers in that area to come and talk to him, and I would not have concerned myself with that particular case. Because at that time we were not traveling out-of-state, and it would - - I would have felt that officers, if they, you know, needed to check on that case, then they needed to come and talk to him because I knew nothing about any of those particular cases other than just what Henry was saying. And he was talking about a body up there by an Army base or missile base up in that area.
Q. Did you ever learn that the investigating officers on that case were completely unable to confirm that that offense had ever even occurred?
Page 755
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
No, sir.
Q. You stated that you-all were not travelling out-of-state at that time. When you are referring to at that time, do you mean in February of’84?
A. That would have been - - Yes. The only time that we had gone out-of-state would have been the Florida trip.
Q. Prior to February of ’84?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You-all made several out-of-state trips later in ’84, didn’t you?
A. Yes, we did.
Q. Can you remember all the states you traveled to with Henry Lucas?
A. Henry was taken to Louisiana, he was taken to California, he was taken to Georgia, he was taken to Florida once again and he was taken to West Virginia. And I believe that - -
Q. Was he ever taken to Arkansas?
A. Yes. Yes, he was taken to Arkansas.
Q. Was he ever taken to Pennsylvania? A. Not that I’m aware of.
Q. Was he ever taken to Oregon or Washington?
A. No, sir.
Q. Now, that trip that you came - - that you
Page 756
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
made in February of ’84 to El Paso, part of that van ride was recorded. Do you recall that?
Yes, sir.
Q. Do you recall that not all of that van ride was recorded, that sometimes the recorder would be on and sometimes it would be off?
A. I believe that’s correct.
Q. Do you recall what your procedure would be on a day like that when you were going to go out in the field with Henry Lucas? If you could, please tell me, based upon your own recollection of exactly what you-all did that day, as far as when you went to pick Henry and who was there and when you-all went out to the field, what other - - maybe any other procedural steps you may have taken.
A. Well, that would have been up to the agency that was working with Henry. All the agencies, as I recall, when they get him, they would talk to him, give him his warning of his rights and then they would ask Henry, you know, where they needed to go.
And Henry would direct them in most instances where we would go back to a place for Henry pointing out where he had committed a crime.
Q. When you would begin a day of interviewing Henry in Georgetown or when you would begin a day of
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Going out in the field with Henry, for instance, here in El Paso County, would you be begin that day with reciting to Henry Lucas his Miranda rights?
Throughout the day, he would be given this warning. As I would talk to him on cases, each individual case, he would be given his Miranda warning.
The officers, some of them did it in just the day, the morning. For instance in Georgia, they would give him his warning that day, and then throughout the day Henry would talk about cases. And I believe some of them were tape recorded and videotaped and they would have the Miranda warning, I believe, on that tape.
Q. Do you remember any being given to Henry that day, February 13th, of 1984?
A. I believe there was a Miranda warning given Henry.
Q. Who was Henry’s lawyer on February 13th of 1984?
A. There were two fellows, Don Higginbotham and - -
Q. Parker McCollough?
A. - - Parker McCollough were representing Henry back during that time.
Q. They were appointed by the judge in
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Georgetown to represent Henry against the capital murder charges pending against him for the orange socks case. Is that correct?
Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. Were they consulted before Henry Lucas would confess to these crimes?
A. No, sir.
Q. Were they consulted by you or any members of the Lucas task force prior to you-all interviewing Henry Lucas regarding his involvement in these crimes? For instance, were they consulted on February 13th, ’84?
A. No, sir, I don’t think they were.
Q. Do you know if Henry Lucas was given an opportunity to speak to local counsel here in El Paso prior to talking to the El Paso officers on these offenses?
A. I don’t recall, but I don’t think he was.
Q. How often during that period of time was Henry Lucas being interviewed by you or other officers? Wasn’t it on a daily basis?
A. That’s correct.
Q. The pattern at that time would be for - - in general, Henry Lucas would be at the Williamson County jail in Georgetown and officers would come in to interview him there. Is that correct?
Page 759
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Yes.
Q. And then upon schedules and advance notice, sometimes you-all would make trips out of town to go to crime scenes like you-all did on this trip to El Paso. Is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. All this time Henry Lucas was being interviewed on a daily basis, did he - - was he given - -would a lawyer go down to talk to him every day to see - - to advise him as to whether or not he should give these confessions to the interviewing officers?
A. In the beginning when Parker McCollough and Don Higginbotham were appointed, we conferred with them quite often concerning Lucas. Lucas did not - - would not cooperate with his attorneys. He would not do what they suggested that he would do. And Henry just turned off on the attorneys and would not cooperate with them.
Q. Was Henry given the opportunity, however, on a daily basis, to consult with those lawyers?
A. I don’t think that he was, no. He certainly - - If he had requested, he certainly would have been afforded that opportunity, but he never requested it.
Q. And would you and the other members of the task force call the lawyers every day before you
Page 760
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
would begin interviews to ask them to come down to advise Henry?
No.
Q. Did you have any contact with any El Paso officers between February 13th of ’84 and September 18th of ’84?
A. No.
Q. Do you recall any telephone requests for interviews or anything of that nature by any El Paso officers to see Henry Lucas?
A. I don’t recall any.
Q. Do you recall - - Do you recall that Henry Lucas was being interviewed by Captain - - by Lieutenant Jerry Smith of the Odessa Police Department on September 18th, 1984, when Henry Lucas was in Monahans, Ward county?
A. Do I recall that?
Q. Yes.
A. Yes.
Q. You were there that day, weren’t you?
A. Yes.
Q. On that day Lieutenant Smith, who testified before you did, told His Honor that he had to wait in the jail that day because Henry was out somewhere doing something. He wasn’t aware of exactly what
Page 761
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
That was. Would you please tell me what you might remember that Henry Lucas was doing on September 18th, ’84, when he was allegedly trying to lead some Ward County officers to some crime scenes?
I’m not sure if that’s the trip that we made to - - up to Colorado City and that area and then ended up in Monahans. I’m not sure, but I’m thinking - - would have to go back through my reports possibly and find the information. Bu t we made a trip to Colorado City and possibly that’s that trip that we ended up in Monahans that day, but I’m not sure.
Q. Do you recall what the results were of that trip in Monahans and Ward County?
A. There was negative results.
Q. They were unable to confirm Henry Lucas being involved in those alleged offenses?
A. Yes, that’s correct.
Q. Do you recall when you-all came back to the Ward County jail that day on September 18th, 1984?
A. No, I don’t. I know we went into the night that night, but I don’t recall, you know, arriving back at the Ward County jail.
Q. Well, Lieutenant Smith testified earlier that he had been given the interview time of 3;30 in the afternoon, but in fact, wasn’t able to talk to
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Henry until 11:30 that night and that apparently Henry Lucas had been out in the field during that day but then he was being interviewed by some other officers that evening.
Can you recall who Henry Lucas might have been being interviewed by that evening after dark?
If I could see that travel log, it might help to refresh my memory.
MR. PONTON: Bill, could I see a copy of your task force log? Mine is apparently missing.
(An off-the-record discussion was held.)
MR. PONTON: May I approach the witness, Your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) I’m going to show the witness a copy of the task force log II, which is the interview log kept by the Lucas task force regarding who was interviewing Henry Lucas. You’re familiar with that, aren’t you?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. I have got it turned to the page that refers to some 9-17 and 9-18 interviews. Is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. After looking at that document, is your memory refreshed as to who was interviewing Henry
Page 763
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Lucas on the 18th of September?
Yes, sir.
Q. Who was it?
A. Well, we started out, I believe, that morning with Ranger George Fraizer, and we went on to Colorado City and some others there in Colorado City talked to him.
And then I believe we went on into Monahans, and there some other officers began talking to him and that went on into the night. And then Jerry Smith started his interview sometime around midnight that night or the next morning. It would have been actually the 19th, I believe.
Q. By looking at that log, can you recall approximately when you-all would have started that day and when you-all would have started to go to Colorado City, if that’s where you went first?
A. Well, we would have started that day, I believe we flew out of Georgetown and we flew to Junction or somewhere up there.
Q. Okay.
A. We landed - -
Q. What time would you have left Georgetown?
A. About probably somewhere close to 8:00 that morning.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Q. How long would you-all have been in Junction?
A. Well, it shows here that we were there from 9:15 to 11:00 a.m., 9:15 a.m. - - 11:00 a.m.
Q. What cases or case were you-all looking at Henry for there in Junction?
A. The notation here was some bloody clothing that had been found at a roadside park there and possibly - - I don’t even think that maybe they had a body. They just found some bloody clothing and they wanted to talk to Henry to see if he had been in that area, and checked that out to see if there would have been a body up there.
Q. Were they ever able to confirm any involvement between Henry Lee Lucas and the bloody clothing found at the roadside park?
A. No. Henry had told them he had not placed any bloody clothing or had not been in that roadside park.
Q. Do you know why they wanted to question Henry about the bloody clothing found at the roadside park?
A. I think it was more or less just to see if there had - - actually they had a body around there somewhere that they had not found.
Q. Wasn’t the task force trying - - essentially
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Gathering up data on all - - practically all unsolved roadside murders like that in Texas and asking Henry about his involvement in them?
Not the task force. It would have been the individual officers.
Q. Right. But you-all were acting as sort of a clearinghouse for them to be able to coordinate and bring those cases to Henry. Is that correct?
A. Coordination would be more like it.
Q. Is it a fair statement, sir, that practically ever unsolved roadside murder in Texas from, say, the period if ’75 to ’83 Henry Lucas was asked about?
A. I don’t know how many murder we got, roadside murders. There were a lot of officers from Texas that questioned him, but there could be a lot of officers that did not question him in reference to roadside murders. I couldn’t answer that. I don’t know.
Q. Do you have any estimate on the number of murders that occurred in Texas that Henry Lucas was questioned about?
A. No, sir. I have no knowledge of the figures.
Q. Can you tell from your log in front of you what you-all did after you left Junction about 11:15
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
and what Henry Lucas did that day, the rest of the day, before dark?
Yes, sir. We went to Colorado City.
Q. Would that have been via DPS aircraft?
A. Yes. And we drove out to a lake area, and we arrived there at somewhere around 12:00 noon and left sometime around 5:00 p.m. And then we went on into to Monahans.
Q. Would you have flown from Colorado City to Monahans?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you know what the results were of the trip to Colorado City?
A. As far as any murder, it was negative.
Q. Had somebody been killed out by that lake?
A. We weren’t sure. Henry was talking about a lake where Bill Rich out of Odessa, Texas, had a cabin, and he was talking about a pier and big boats and things like that and he was saying that he had left a body close to that lake.
We felt like that we had found the lake that Henry was describing, which was described accurately, but we did not find any body.
Q. So there was no confirmation that a murder ever occurred. Is that correct?
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Well, that’s true. We were unable to confirm.
Q. Henry Lucas was never formally charged with any alleged murder in Colorado City, was he?
A. No.
Q. Now, when you say, “we,” who was traveling that day with you in the DPS aircraft?
A. I believe I was by myself that day.
Q. Would it have been you and the pilot and Henry Lucas?
A. Yes.
Q. Were you met - - Were you-all met each place where you’d landed that day by local Texas Rangers?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Who would have met you in Junction?
A. It would have been Ranger George Fraizer.
Q. Who would have met you in Colorado City?
A. I’m not sure. I didn’t list a ranger’s name on here. I believe we were met by a ranger that day, but I didn’t list his name on here.
Q. Can you recall what Henry Lucas we interviewed regarding on the evening of September 18th before Jerry Smith began his interview?
A. No, sir, I do not.
Q. Does your log reflect anybody who might have
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Been interviewing Henry from 5:00 p.m. until midnight?
Well, there was Ranger Charlie Hodges and a deputy, I believe it was a deputy from Crane County, Wendell Taylor. My log shows they talked to Henry.
Q. Ranger, I’m having a little trouble hearing you. If you could, speak up a little bit or pull the mike a little closer.
A. It was off.
Q. Okay.
Q. So you don’t recall what Henry was being interviewed about that evening?
A. No, sir, I don’t.
Q. Does your - -
A. My - -
Q. Excuse me. I didn’t mean to interrupt you.
A. My log only shows that on the Colorado City trip I know who he was being interviewed on, but on the - - when we arrived at Monahans, I only show a question on murder out of Odessa, white female.
Q. White female?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Does the name Beverly Latrell refresh your memory that that might be the murder he was being interviewed about?
A. I’m not sure. It could have been.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Q. Does your log reflect whether anybody interviewed Henry Lucas after Jerry Smith did?
A. I know C. J. Havrda had talked to Henry, and I have got him, I show here from 10:30 until 11:30. And I show Jerry Smith and there is also a Bruce Wilson between Jerry Smith, and I show the line here in from 12:00 midnight until 1:00 a.m. for Smith. And I don’t know whether Havrda came back and talked to Lucas after that or not.
But - - You see, I was in and out. I didn’t stay there all the time. I didn’t stay with the officers. I felt like by and large that most of my work was performed when I got him there and got him into the custody of the other officers that - - Certainly I stayed around the area but I did not sit in on every interview.
Q. Do you know if anybody talked with Henry Lucas after 1:00 a.m. after Jerry Smith interviewing him?
A. I’m not sure. I don’t think they did. Havrda could have gone back in and talked to Henry. I’m thinking that it was somewhere possibly close to 2:00, 2:00a.m. that morning before we finally, you know, everybody got bedded down.
Q. Those kind of long days were not unusual
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
during that time you were working with the ranger task force, were they?
We put in some long hours occasionally, yes, sir, quite often.
Q. Quite often. And Henry Lucas was working as hard as you-all were?
A. Yes.
Q. How would Henry be - - how would you-all make arrangements for him to be fed on days like September 18th, ’84, when you-all were flying from Georgetown to Junction to Colorado City to Monahans? How would you-all handle that?
A. Normally when the lunch time came, whatever law enforcement agency we were with we would go out and eat, stop on the road somewhere, go into a public restaurant.
Q. Henry had a fondness for junk food, didn’t he, or hamburgers, that kind of stuff?
A. Henry ate very little. Henry loved coffee and cigarettes, and that’s what he ran on mainly.
Q. He would get pretty upset if he couldn’t get his coffee or cigarettes, wouldn’t he?
A. Well, he liked coffee and cigarettes, yes, sir.
Q. At any time while you were involved with the
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
ranger task force was Henry Lucas ever not given his coffee and cigarettes?
I don’t think he was.
Q. You don’t this he was ever kept from having those things?
A. No. After we had - - After Henry had been with us awhile, I don’t know whether it was Sister Clemmie or who it was that got him a thermos bottle and Henry would take coffee with him.
Q. Whenever he would go out in the field?
A. Yes.
Q. When Henry was at the Williamson County jail, he would be given the opportunity to have fresh hot coffee any time he wanted it, wasn’t he?
A. Well, that’s true, yes. We kept a pot on all the time for the officers that were coming in and for Henry and everybody else concerned.
Q. Does everybody concerned include all the other inmates of the Williamson County jail?
A. No, this would have been the officers that were talking to Henry. Sergeant Prince, I don’t think he drank coffee, but it would have been coffee for myself and for the officers and for Henry.
Of course, the inmates, I don’t know about them, the other inmates.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Q. On February - -September 18th, ’84, did Henry talk with any lawyer that evening?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did you call a lawyer for Henry to be able to talk to that evening?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did you talk to Jerry Smith that evening before he began to interview Henry Lucas around midnight?
A. We might have talked briefly.
Q. Did he tell you that Henry Lucas had indicated any involvement in a case in El Paso?
A. I’m not sure. I think possible he might have mentioned something about it after the interview either - -
Q. Excuse me.
A. He was talking to C. J. Havrda.
Q. Who was the ranger from Midland? Is that correct?
A. Yes. And there might have been something mentioned briefly about it.
Q. Does your log reflect anything on that?
A. No, sir, it does not.
Q. Do you remember talking to Ranger Havrda or Lieutenant Jerry Smith that evening about making any
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
arrangements for Henry to talk to any El Paso officers that day, really, the 19th, in Sierra Blanca?
No, sir, I don’t remember that.
Q. Do you remember talking with any El Paso officers named Benito Perez or Jimmy Apodaca on the 19th of September regarding arrangements for Henry Lucas on September 19th at Sierra Blanca?
A. I probably would have talked to someone, because I became aware that there were some El Paso officers that wanted to meet us in Sierra Blanca and I probably talked to someone who requested that if they could talk to Henry, but I do not remember who that was, whether they had contacted the task force and I got my orders from them or how it came about. But I do remember that I was - - I was aware that there were some officers from El Paso that wanted to meet us there in Sierra Blanca.
Q. Who had authority to approve an interview with Henry Lucas in the task force?
A. Well - -
Q. Say I’m an officer from Crane, Texas, and I want to talk to to Henry Lucas. Who could authorize Henry Lucas talking to me, if I just made a call in to wherever?
A. I think it was more or less a judgment
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situation. Certainly if the schedule were to be changed and I was on the road and they contacted the task force office and said, “We want to talk to Henry,” and then Sergeant Prince would call me and say, “Clayton, there are some officers over here at such and such, say, for instance, over here at Sierra Blanca that want to talk to Henry. Can you take him on over there, or, you know, can you make him available?
If I was contacted, then I would contact Sergeant Prince and probably advise him that there is some officers that want to talk to Henry, would it be okay if we, you know, detoured or whatever was necessary we would have to do.
And certainly we would check that out with Henry to see if he was voluntarily willing to, you know, to do this. There was no reason, you know, to spend money to fly him somewhere or drive him somewhere if he would not voluntarily want to talk to an officer.
And so that’s kind of the way it went.
Q. So you would generally check with Bob Prince and Henry Lucas before confirming that an officer could interview Henry Lucas. Is that correct?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct. Or if Henry came
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Out of a meeting with an officer and said, you know, “I have got a case over here,” you know, “and these officers want to talk to me,” you know, “and I want to go over there and get this thing cleared up,” then I would probably call Sergeant Prince and tell him, you know, “Henry says he has got a case a certain place and he wants to go and get it cleared up.”
And it was - - it was more or less, as far as the travels and everything, it was more or less left up to our own discretion, going back getting approval, you know, Henry being voluntarily willing to go to a certain place. But it was kind of left to our own discretion.
Of course, we had to make our arrangements, you know, around the aircraft schedule and everything, too. We had that to consider.
Q. When you refer to Henry being voluntarily willing to go to a location to talk about a crime, would that - - wouldn’t you ask Henry if he had committed a crime in that area?
A. Would I ask him?
Q. Yes.
A. I might probably would.
Q. I mean, let me put it this way, Ranger. If Henry said - - Say you got a call from an officer in
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Plainview, Texas, and he said he wanted to talk to Henry about a crime up there, and you went and asked Henry and Henry says, “I have never been to Plainview. I never killed anybody up there,” you-all wouldn’t take the time to go up there after that, would you?
No. If that ever happened, no, we wouldn’t. But I don’t think that ever happened, that an officer would come to me and tell me Henry had killed somebody in a place and then Henry came along and say, “No, I didn’t kill nobody.”
Q. Well, but it may be a little different. Maybe an officer says he has a case with a murder victim and he didn’t know who did it but it might have been Henry, if you asked Henry if he did it, he said no, you wouldn’t go up there, would you?
A. Situation like that we would not deviate our schedule.
Q. So you would only go to these murder locations after Henry told you he committed that offense. Is that correct?
A. Not in every case. Not in every case. We
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Went to areas sometimes for Henry to - - Henry would say, “I have got some cases in an area,” and we would take him to those areas and let him drive around the landmarks that he remembered in that area and attempt, you know, for him to point out the cases that he said he had.
Not every time. I think, when we went into an area Henry would say that he had a body there, a lot of officers just, you know, would be closeby and they wanted him, you know, to come into his territory or town or something and see if he remembered anything that he had done there.
Q. Yes.
A. And a lot of times when we got in one area, Henry would remember something that happened over in another area closeby.
Q. If you got a call, for instance, from an officer, let’s just use Plainview, for example, and he said he had an unidentified - - or he had a victim and he thought Henry had done it and that he wanted to talk to Henry and Henry said he was willing to go there to see if he could remember anything about it, would you - - what would you do next? Would you call that officer back to make arrangements for Henry to go up there? What would happen next?
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Sergeant Prince did most of the scheduling. But if that officer had talked to Henry and Henry had given an amount of information that tended to make that officer believe that Henry had, in fact, committed that crime, then, yes, we would probably take him there to that location.
In other words, if an officer said, “I have got a murder up here in Plainview, Texas, and I would just like for you to ride Henry up here and let him see if he committed that murder,” no.
Q. So he would only go up to a crime scene after he had given a statement that he had done the crime in an interview with the officer. Would that be true?
A. That would be, in most cases, true. There were, I believe, situations where Henry woud get in one area and say, “Hey, I remember being in this little town right outside of Plainview, too.” And when he got into an area, sometimes it would help him remember that he had been in another location and he would tell us about something else he had done.
Q. But in other words, you-all wouldn’t take the time and money to take Henry out to a location until after officers from that location had come to Georgetown, interviewed Henry Lucas and confirmed as
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far as they were concerned that Henry was good for their crime. Would that be correct?
Well, they wouldn’t necessarily have to come to Georgetown. It could be the same situation that we had in Monahans, Texas, where Jerry Smith talked to Henry that night.
Q. Right. But at least confirm it in some kind of interview before you go out to a location. Is that correct?
A. In most every - - I’m not going to pin myself down and say it was in every situation.
Q. I understand.
A. But in most situations, yes, it would seem like that there would be an amount of information that tended to lead us to the point to where we thought it was justified to take him to that place. Like I say, we just wouldn’t take him on a whim, just out riding him around just touring the countryside just for the heck of it. But there would have to be some kind of - - in most every situation something substantial that we felt it bore checking into a little deeper.
Q. For instance, Henry didn’t come to El Paso on February 13th of ’84 until after the investigating officers felt Henry was good for a couple murder
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out here. Is that correct?
Well, I don’t know how the investigating officers felt about the murders, Henry repeatedly talked about El Paso, Texas. He had an obsession with El Paso and the fact that he had killed some people out here and would bring it up. Same thing in New Mexico.
Q. Well, that would apply to many different areas around the country, wouldn’t it?
A. Well, yes, but there were some special area to Henry, I mean, some areas that he undoubtedly like to travel through and this was one of them.
Q. He made the same mention about California, didn’t he?
A. Yes.
Q. And Florida?
A. Yes.
Q. And Houston?
A. Yes.
Q. And the north Texas are, Dallas to Wichita Falls area?
A. Well, he lived up there for awhile. He didn’t indicate that he hung around Dallas-Fort Worht area a lot.
He talked about Stoneburg and up in there,
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But he didn’t mention Dallas and Forth Worth a whole lot, not as much as he did areas like El Paso and San Antonio and those areas.
Q. And Henry talked about committing some murders in San Antonio, didn’t he?
A. Yes, sir, he did.
Q. As a matter of fact, at one time he was charged with four murders in San Antonio. Do you remember that?
A. I remember that briefly. I have knowledge of it. I did not take him to San Antonio. I believe Sergeant Prince had arranged for those San Antonio officers to interview Henry, and I have only knowledge that there were some murders that were first cleared by Henry and I believe later discounted.
Q. When they were discounted, weren’t they initially cleared as having been committed by Henry Lucas and now they have essentially been uncleared and are still open and they are actively seeking other suspects in those murders besides Henry Lucas now? Do you remember that?
A. I think that’s correct.
Q. Before an officer would come in to talk to Henry Lucas, would you ever - - would you sit down with Henry to see if Henry remembered anything about
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an offense?
No, sir.
Q. In other words, if an officer wanted to talk to Henry about an offense in that officer’s jurisdiction, you wouldn’t even - - knowing that you had a four-month backlog of time to interview Henry, that you wouldn’t ask Henry to see if he had ever been in that area or ever had any familiarity at all with the offense that officer wanted to talk to Henry about?
A. No, sir, because Henry was probably busy talking to another officer at that time, the time that the call would come in.
And there are instances where we went and stopped an interview with another officer and would bring Henry to the phone and let him talk to some officers. That didn’t occur on a daily basis. That occurred occasionally. We would go get Henry and bring him and let the two converse on the phone.
And then after Henry would get off the phone and we took him back to the interview room where he might be talking to another officer, then we would talk to that officer and he would say, well, you know, I talked to Henry and it doesn’t sound like he’s , you know, doesn’t have any knowledge of my case.
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Or he would say, gosh, this man, well, he’s telling me facts about this case that, man, I need to come and talk to that guy, you know. And so then if it was very positive, depending upon the other officers, then we would say, okay, we will put you down for a thing.
But if an officer called in and said, “I’ve got ten murders in my area and I’d like to come talk with henry,” we didn’t sit and question that officer about those things. We said, okay, put your name on the list. We will notify you in a few days in advance where you can make airline reservations in time enough to, you know, get sown here and set you up a time.
That was the main, you know, job responsibilities that we had on the task force.
Q. When that officer got to Williamson County, would you talk about that offense any with that officer before that officer would go talk to Henry Lucas?
A. No, sir. We had a tight schedule in that office, and we almost wore out our ears talking on the telephone. We were bombarded almost constantly with phone calls, people calling in. And this was early on and during the task force as it went on.
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Q. Then - -
A. We didn’t have time to sit there and talk to officers about all of their cases. I’d like to tell you that I could care less about the other officers’ cases, but that’s not true. But I just wasn’t interested in other officers’ cases as much. That’s their business and I have my business to take care of.
Q. And your main business was scheduling Henry Lucas and then going with him when he would go to crime scenes. Wasn’t that your main business?
A. Yes, sir, that’s almost all of it.
Q. And part of that included keeping Henry happy, didn’t it?
A. What do you mean keeping Henry happy?
Q. Well - -
A. Doing favors for him and things like that?
Q. Yep.
A. No. I treated Henry just like I would treat any other individual. He is a human being and he was treated like a human being, and I did not afford him any special treatment or anything like that.
Certainly I tried to keep him happy and cooperative, but as far as going outside and overboard to do that, I did not.
Q. Was he treated the same as any other inmate
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at the Williamson County jail?
I do not have charge of that jail and those inmates are not my responsibility, and I can’t answer that question for you.
Q. Well, you were headquartered at that jail for a year and a half as part of the task force, weren’t you?
A. Yes. Q. And in that year and a half you were in daily contact with Henry Lucas, weren’t you?
A. Yes, almost daily.
Q. And many of those days would be 12-, 16-, 18-, hour days?
A. Yes.
Q. And you were able to observe Henry Lucas on an almost daily basis there and talk with him on almost a daily basis?
A. Yes.
Q. And able to observe all the other inmates at the jail that you would see while you were there. Is that correct?
A. No, I did not observe the other inmates. I spent most of my time - - if I was there, I was either in the task force office or the interview room. And I had very little contact with the other inmates with
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the exception of the trusties passing, you know, occasionally by up and down the corridor going into the jail.
Q. Based upon your personal observations from being at the jail for a year and a half with Henry Lucas, can you say that he was treated the same as any other Williamson County jail inmate during that period of time?
A. There again, I am not in charge of those inmates. I do not run that jail.
Q. That’s not my question, though, Mr. Smith.
A. I don’t know how the other inmates are being treated at that jail.
As far as my concern was and as far as what I did, I saw that he had coffee, yes. I saw that he, when it came lunchtime, when the inmates were fed and he was there at Georgetown, I saw that we would stop the interview and we would take Henry and let him have his lunch. I would take him back to his cell.
When we were on the road traveling, I saw that he ate. I saw that he ate basically maybe the same food that I did or he was taken to a county jail and put up somewhere and fed. And that’s the way that I treated him.
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Now, I didn’t have an opportunity to treat the other inmates any other - - I mean, that was not my responsibility.
Q. When you said take a break for lunch from the interviewing of Henry Lucas at the Williamson County jail, would Henry Lucas be taken back to his jail every day to be fed or eat there in the interview room or anywhere else?
A. No, he was taken back to his cell.
Q. Was Henry Lucas given the same food to eat for lunch every day that all the other inmates in the Williamson County jail were eating?
A. In the beginning and on during the task force operation, yes, he ate the same food as the other prisoners did. Later on he met a lady by the name of Sister Clemmie that I know her as, and she brought quite a bit of food in for Henry and he was allowed to eat that food.
Q. Did Henry ever make any special requests for food from the Williamson County jail kitchen?
A. I do not know. There again, Mr. Ponton, I don’t run that jail and I don’t have anything to do with the feeding of the prisoners or the menus or whatever. And that’s up to the jailer and those people, and I cannot answer that question.
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Q. When Henry Lucas would have a long day being interviewed at that jail, would you ever make arrangements for him to have other food brought in from restaurants or take-out places in Williamson County Georgetown?
A. No, sir, not I.
Q. Are you aware of that being done?
A. I think a very few times that possibly it was done.
Q. What types of food, do you recall?
A. Strawberry malt.
Q. Henry was fond of ice cream, wasn’t he?
A. Well, I can’t say that - - He liked strawberry malts, but he had a stomach problem and a lot of foods just didn’t agree with him.
Q. How often would he get a strawberry malt?
A. I can’t answer that. Probably the whole time that I dealt with Henry, I probably - - other than normal feeding him and I spent money out of my own pockets when we were on the road a lot of times to feed him lunch at restaurants where somebody else didn’t pick up the tab, that the sheriff or somebody like that didn’t pick up the tab, that I had to feed him. And I bought him maybe a sandwich or something like that and a strawberry malt. But outside just,
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You know, treating him to something extra, probably a couple of malts is all I ever, you know, gave him.
Q. Plus the coffee?
A. Well, the coffee was there at the jail. And on the road, as I testified awhile ago, somebody got Henry a coffee container and he would get that filled up in the morning when he left the jails. And we stopped sometimes and some of the officers would buy him a thermos of coffee. If he ran out during the day, of it was a long day, they might stop at a hamburger place or something like that and get him a thermos of coffee, get him a refill.
Q. What kind of cigarettes did Henry Smoke? Did he spoke Pall Malls?
A. Yes.
Q. And how would he get his cigarettes?
A. A lot of the officers that came in would bring him cigarettes.
Q. You mean, the officers that would come in and interview Henry?
A. Yes.
Q. They bring a carton of cigarettes, wouldn’t they?
A. Yes.
Q. Would they give him these cartons of
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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Cigarettes before or after their interviews with Henry?
I’m not sure. Some of them might have given them before, some might have given after.
Q. So Henry always had plenty of cartons of cigarettes sitting around in his cell. Do you recall that?
A. Well, at times he did. At times he didn’t.
Q. He was a heavy smoker, wasn’t he?
A. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Constantly.
Q. He would chain smoke all the time, practically?
A. Yes.
Q. Henry had a certain way he liked doing things, didn’t he?
A. Well, what do you mean by that?
Q. Well, like anybody?
A. Give me an example.
Q. He had his habits, I guess, like any of us in this room do, when he wanted to get up or when he wanted to talk to people or the way he liked to be treated, things of that nature. Did he have any kind of habits like that that you can recall?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What were those?
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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Henry was very - - I don’t know how to explain. I don’t think there is any explanation for Henry Lucas. But he had - - had different moods, and he is never the same any two days in a row. He acted differently just from day to day, sometimes from hour to hour.
And I don’t know what was behind it. Sometimes he was grouchy, sometimes he was - - he would get mad. And sometimes he was in good humor.
Q. What kind of daily habits did Henry have when he was at the Williamson County jail being interviewed daily?
A. What kind of daily habits did he have? Well, we go back to the coffee drinking and cigarette smoking. That was two of his daily habits.
Q. When would he like to get up?
A. Henry did not sleep a whole lot. He was a restless type individual.
Q. When did he like to begin his interview schedule for the day?
A. After he had his cup of coffee. He always wanted that first cup of coffee.
Q. When would he have that first cup of coffee, what time in the morning?
A. Well, I don’t know whether - - He will
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Probably have coffee, you know, prior or during breakfast and I don’t know what time that was. There again, that was the jail’s schedule, and I’m sure that, you know, all the inmates probably - -And I do not know this, but they have a time for feeding and you either eat or whatever.
But my first contact with him in the day, Henry would be - - he would be dressed, he would be ready, he would be sitting there on his cot. He might be painting a picture or something like that, working with his art.
And I would, you know, I would come and get him, take him downstairs and we would start the day.
Q. What time would that be?
A. Oh, it might be, maybe around - - sometime between 8:30. Most of the times it would probably be 9:00, because the officers would come in, getting acquainted with them and filling out the log sheet, things of this nature, and getting their names and all.
And we would - - Then we would go up to the cell and get Henry and bring him down.
THE COURT: Mr. Ponton, let’s take a rest
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For a few minutes.
MR. PONTON: All right, Your Honor.
THE COURT: How much longer do you think this might go on? Give me some idea.
MR PONTON: I’ll be done with this officer this morning, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Well, does that mean in an hour, hour and a half? We have go to get this - -
MR. PONTON: I would say an hour and a half, Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. Well, let’s get to something kind of important now. We know about the coffee and stuff. Let’s get on to something that is important to us.
MR. PONTON: I will, Your Honor.
(A recess was taken.)
THE COURT: All right, Mr. Ponton, let’s go on. Let’s get to something meaningful now.
MR. PONTON: Yes, Your Honor.
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) Ranger, before other officers would interview Henry Lucas, would you sit down with them to discuss the facts of their case?
A. No, sir.
Q. You never would discuss the facts of a case with other officers before the other officers would
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go in to talk to Henry about the case?
No, sir. I didn’t ask for the facts. There might be a situation or two where, you know, the officers might have said something. But as I have already stated, certainly, you know, I was interested in , you know, seeing that cases were, you know, murderers were caught and things like that. I’m not shirking my responsibility, but I didn’t feel that was any of my business about these other officers’ cases.
Q. Would you ever discuss any facts of those cases with Henry Lucas when these officers would call in and set up an interview?
A. If there needed to be any discussion made we would go get him and put him on the phone direct with the officer.
Q. You would never ask Henry about the facts of a case yourself?
A. On mail-in cases I did, yes.
Q. Right. But on these other case?
A. No.
Q. And would any other member of the task force?
A. I can’t speak for the other members.
Q. Are you aware of any other member of the task force ever discussing facts of any case with
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Henry Lucas before an officer would come to interview Henry Lucas?
No, sir, I’m not.
Q. Would you ever share a file with Henry Lucas prior to him being interviewed by another officer?
A. No, sir.
Q. Would you ever show any photographs of a crime or a victim or a crime scene to Henry Lucas before he would be interviewed by another officer?
A. I showed him photographs of victims and things like that when - - at times, sometimes when I talked to him on mail-in cases. And sometimes possibly these mail-in cases would result in a positive way, that Henry could become a suspect and that officer would come in and talk to Henry later on. Yes, that could happen.
Q. Are you aware of any El Paso cases having been mailed in?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did Henry Lucas ever give you or did you and Henry Lucas ever discuss the way in which he wanted his interviews to go with these officers?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did Henry Lucas ever give you a list of things or sort if do’s and don’ts that he wanted to
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during his interviews?
No, sir.
Q. Did you ever give any guidelines for interviewing Henry Lucas to the officers who would come in to interview him?
A. Guidelines, no. We did not have guidelines. We would possibly suggest to officers that they needed to be careful with Henry, that they, you know, you believe Henry for what you can confirm, that type of situation. We warned them about giving him - - feeding him a lot of information about a crime.
Q. Did you ever make any suggestions to these interviewing officers that they shouldn’t challenge Henry Lucas for telling the truth or not?
A. We would - - We might tell them, “Don’t call him a liar. If you think he is lying, just think that, walk on. Don’t call him a liar.”
Q. Would you ever tell them that - - anything else like that, any of these other suggestions on the way that Henry liked to be treated during the interview?
A. I can’t think of any.
Q. Did you ever give them any suggestions on how to get an interview started with Henry on a case?
A. No, sir. I felt when an officer was there,
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he should be sufficient in interrogation and interviews that I didn’t feel like it was my business to tell another officer how to run his business.
Q. Did you ever tell another officer to try to get Henry started it would be preferable to show Henry a photograph of the victim of the crime and maybe a photograph of the crime scene so he could sort of get him pointed in the right direction?
A. No, sir. Those things that I told you awhile ago, don’t give him too much information, don’t believe everything he says, only what you can confirm, that type of situation is about all the suggestions that we made to them. And certainly, no, we didn’t tell them - - again we didn’t tell them how to go in there and interview him as far as how to start the interview or whatever.
Q. You did quite a few interviews with Henry Lucas yourself personally, didn’t you?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. These were for the most part on the mail-in cases. Is that correct?
A. That’s correct.
Q. What type of information would you give Henry when you were interviewing him on a mail-in case?
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I would give him information like, for instance, let’s say for Chicago, Illinois. If I had a case that was there from Chicago that had been mailed in, using that city as an example I would say, “Henry, have you ever been to Chicago?”
“Yes, I have been through there.”
Q. Okay.
A. I would say, “Okay, Henry do you remember what the year was? Do you remember the date?
“Well,” he would say, “fall,” or something like that, “of ’79.”
And I would check his answers against what information I had concerning the case. We would go on. If, for instance, the case happened on a highway, which many of them did, I would ask him, “Have you ever been through Illinois? “Have you ever traveled - - Do you remember any of the highways or interstates that you traveled?”
Henry was very familiar with the United States and the interstate system. He could tell you just about every interstate number that went north and south and east and west. He had a very knowledgeable, very knowledgeable about the highway system.
And I would give him just enough information
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concerning the state and possibly the highway. If it was on Interstate 40 or something like that, using that for an example to see if he had ever been through there, and if he had, the dates if he could remember them, then I would go on and say, “Well, have you ever committed a murder? Do you have any murders up there along the highway?”
And, “Yes, I do.”
You know, “Well, tell me about them. What do you remember?”
“Well, I think I’ve got a, I believe, you know, I got a - - picked up a hitchhiker up there, a white female.”
“Well, how old was she, Henry?”
“Well, she was - - I believe she was around 22 years old.”
“What did she look like? What kind of hair did she have?” And, you know, “What color hair? How long? What was she wearing? How did you kill her?” and things of this nature.
And if those answers met the answers that were on the mail-in sheet, then I sent it up - - I sent all the cases back to the officers and they evaluated it for themselves on the tape. I did not put on
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There, you know, “Boy, I think you ought to rush down here and talk to Henry about this. He really knows a lot of facts about this case.” I was just neutral. I sent them off, let the officers evaluate what Henry did.
And then if they wanted to come down and further their investigation, we would set up an appointment for them. If they didn’t, then it was fine. You know, our job was finished.
Q. You’d never show any photographs to Henry?
A. Yes, sir, I showed photographs of Henry - - I mean to Henry.
Q. Would you show photographs to Henry before he would confirm his involvement in some of these cases?
A. At times, yes, I did. It went both ways. I would show some before on occasions, some after on occasions.
Q. Would you make notes of the things that you showed to Henry in the - - either in your notes of the interview or would you make comments about it on the tape?
A. Probably make comment about it on the tape. “I’m showing you, Henry, for the purpose of this tape, this is going to be photograph number one,” on some
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of them and I would identify the photograph.
Q. Would you ever show any photographs that wouldn’t be so identifying?
A. I might have. I’m not sure.
Q. Did you ever confirm any cases yourself as having been committed by Henry?
A. I co-confirmed one case with a sheriff out of Bastrop County.
Q. What case was that?
A. That was an unidentified white female that we found east of Elgin, Texas, on U.S. 290.
Q. Did you confirm any other cases?
A. No.
MR. PONTON: May I approach the witness, Your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) In task force synopses, old version, synopsis 38 is an unidentified white male, late 20’s, in November of ’79 14 miles west of Junction, Texas, on U.S. 290 at the North llano River in Kimble County. Are you familiar with that task force synopsis?
A. Yes, sir, I am.
Q. Would you please turn to the next page and read the final paragraph of that?
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“Offense confirmed by Texas Ranger Clayton Smith.”
Q. Did you confirm that offense as having been committed by Henry Lucas and Ottis Toole?
A. I brought word back from Sheriff John Lockett, I believe was his name. I talked to the sheriff that day after he had talked to Henry.
I said, “Sheriff, do you believe Henry committed that murder?”
He said, “Yes, I do.” He said, “I believe Henry is good for it.”
And I brought the information back to Sergeant Bob Prince and he put my name on it, and it’s merely a semantic in words. I did not officially confirm that case irregardless of what the synopsis sheet shows.
Q. What about the interviews that you did with Henry yourself on - - either on - - with officers who would come to task force headquarters or on mail-in cases. Did you ever clear those cases yourself?
A. No, sir. Again, when I talked to Henry on mail-in cases, I sent the information that I had received back to the officers and they made the evaluation.
Q. This document here, this task force log it
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is of other officers, for the most part, interviewing Henry Lucas about cases. Is that correct?
Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. I’ve gone through this log, Ranger, and made a synopsis here which I’ll mark for identification purposes as Defense - - Is it 8?
It’s marked for identification purposes as Defense 9.
(Defendant’s exhibit marked, D-9)
MR. MOODY: This something you made based on what?
Q. (BY MR. PONTON): Yes, what this is is a synopsis of all the times that you’re mentioned in the task force interview log as having interviewed Henry Lucas.
For instance, the first entry here is 12-13-83, Clayton Smith. So does that look like that I have accurately put that down in my synopsis?
Yes, sir.
Q. What I have done here is put down every time that you interviewed Henry Lucas from the interview log an d the number I came up with, based on this interview log, which is the actual interview log rather than the mail-in log, was approximately 118
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Interviews that you had with Henry Lucas over the period of time reflected by that log, which is essentially from November of ’83 to March or April of ’84. Does that sound about right?
Well, I - -
Q. I don’t want you to take the time to go through each one.
A. March and April of what?
Q. It should be from about November of ’83 to about March or April of ’84, I believe is what is reflected by that log.
A. Well, we went through ’85.
Q. ’85. I’m sorry. I meant to say ’85.
A. Yes, that’s correct.
Q. Yeah. See, here we have March of ’85.
A. Okay.
Q. Here on Defense Exhibit 9, we have, according to my rough count, approximately 118 interviews by you of Henry Lucas during that period of time. And here, as reflected in your interview log where you have the heading of cleared, I have 22 confirmed cases that were confirmed by you based on your interviews. Does that sound about right?
A. That’s not right. When we were off traveling, for instance, as we would talk to the
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Officers and we would ask them if they were going to clear that case or if, you know, if they felt Lucas was good or not good for it, they felt like that he was the one that had committed that crime, we asked them, you know, “Are you going to confirm that case?” And if they said yes, we would make a mark down here to show - - to keep a number of the cases that were, as this shows, cases cleared or we called them confirmed, also.
But I did not make those decisions. The only decision that I made would have been the co-decision with the sheriff of Bastrop County on the unidentified white female in Elgin, Texas.
These other numbers were numbers that I brought back after talking to the other officers. I did not and I would not confirm somebody else’s case.
Q. Isn’t it true, though, that on each of these cases that I have marked down as confirmed by you in Defense Exhibit 9, that those came from entries in the task force interview log where you interviewed Henry Lucas rather than some other law enforcement officer?
A. Well, for instance, right there, I disagree with you. For instance, right here, we have a Dale Williams and a William Brown, Rusk County courthouse,
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Henderson, Texas, talking to Henry Lucas. It shows one case right here, a murder case, cleared.
Q. Right. But that’s not my question to you, Ranger. My question is - -
A. I hadn’t talked to him on those.
Q. I know that. But what I have here in this synopsis I have prepared is going through here and just taking out the interviews that show that you were the officer interviewing Henry Lucas.
In other words, I know that most if this entire log here consists of a compilation of other officers having interviewed Henry Lucas.
Yes.
Q. But there were numerous times when you would interview Henry Lucas personally regarding these offenses. Is that correct?
A. I did not show cleared or I would not confirm another officer’s case. If there are numbers here by cases that I interviewed Henry on, they do not reflect a true picture of what took place.
What I’m saying is they took place after I talked to the other officers and they would confirm it, then I would put a mark on this and bring it back to Sergeant Prince and say, well, Detective so-and-so here conformed this case or considers this Lucas as
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the suspect that committed this murder. And then we would write the synopsis from that.
Q. Would you disagree with me, however, that in this task force interview log it would probably reflect that you interviewed Henry Lucas approximately 118 times? Does that sound like a ball park figure without us taking the Court’s time to count each and everyone of these?
A. Well, I don’t know.
Q. Please glance at my synopsis here and see if that seems to clearly or generally reflect what you might recall.
A. If you went through here and pulled all these out? Now, you say that I talked to him. Do you have the mail-in? Do you have the mail-in log?
Q. I do. It’s right here. But what I have here is I have pulled out every time that you were listed as the officer’s name in the interview log here.
For instance, Clayton Smith, Ranger Austin, regarding - - that would be on 12-14-83 and that is right here. See, I have go that there.
So my question to you: I have counted about this - - somewhere over 100 times in the interview log where you interviewed Henry Lucas regarding cases.
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Does that sound about right?
Possible.
Q. And out of that over 100 times, the records here as given to the DA’s office by the Department of Public Safety reflect that 22 times, based on those interviews, you marked confirmed in the confirmed column here.
A. But I’m telling you that this does not reflect a true picture. For instance, it shows on - -
Q. Well, let me ask you. Would you agree that there could be 22 confirmations in the cases where you interviewed Henry Lucas, whether those conformations came from you or other officers?
A. I will agree to this, possibly. Maybe I can answer you this way.
There might be 22 marks showing cases cleared or confirmed where my name appears on this, but what I’m saying is that I did not clear those cases on my authority.
Q. That’s fine. I also have what I call the task force log III, and this is the mail-in log, a copy of it. You’re familiar with this, aren’t you?
A. Yes, sir, I am.
Q. I went through this last night and I counted 151 interviews by you of Henry Lucas or 151 cases
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where you interviewed Henry Lucas on mail-in cases. Does that sound about right?
That’s pretty close, I would imagine. There might be a few more before we started figuring out we was going to do all this thing. I don’t think there were because that was early on and the mail-in cases hadn’t started pouring in at that time. So this is probably a true figure.
Q. So between the mail-in cases where you interviewed Henry Lucas and the actual interview of active cases reflected in the interview log, you have interviewed Henry Lucas personally on over 250 cases. Would that be a fair approximation?
A. Yes, sir, probably so. Close.
Q. Would it be higher than that?
A. It could be.
Q. And you would never show Henry Lucas any files prior to interviewing him?
A. Show him any files prior to interviewing him?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. I have already testified that I showed him - - Not files, no. Maybe photographs and things like that before interviewing, but not the files. No, I never showed Henry files.
(Defendant’s exhibit marked, D-10)
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Q. (BY MR. PONTON): Can you identify that photograph?
A. Yes, sir, I can.
Q. Is that a photograph of you and Henry Lucas?
A. Yes, sir, it is.
Q. Can you identify what is on the table between you and Henry Lucas?
A. Yes, sir. That’s a book there. What do you call it? It’s a file container, a file folder.
Q. Does that look like a case file on a murder case that you might have been talking about with Henry Lucas?
A. I don’t know. This was a staged photograph for a book writer that came in there that Sister Clemmie wanted to get our picture. And so I consented and that was a staged deal.
Q. And the only time that you had a file with you in front of you and Henry Lucas would have been when you staged a photograph for this writer?
A. No, sir. I brought files into the room when I talked to Henry. I didn’t even talk to Henry in that room there. That wasn’t our interview room. That was in the office there.
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But I would bring a file in, Henry would sit on one side of the table and I would sit on the other side of the table. I would have the file with me and I would ask Henry questions and he would give me answers. And at that time I would be reading the file to familiarize myself with it.
When Henry and I walked into the room to talk about the case, I knew as much about that case - - well, I knew nothing about that case because I had not opened that file. I had not gone through there. The only time I would talk to Henry about cases, mail-in cases, I would pick up the case, open it up. The first this I would see is Georgia.
“Henry, you got any cases over in Georgia? Got any, you know, around a certain town or an area? Tell me. What do they consist of?”
And I would start reading there. And it would be a white female. Find out how old she was. And that’s the way the thing went. In other words, when I talked to Henry about mail-in cases, I didn’t know anything about the case.
Q. Would you talk about them with Henry as you were familiarizing yourself with the case?
A. I was asking him questions, yes.
Q. You remember that Henry Lucas testified
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before the 34th Judicial District Gran d Jury in El Paso County, Texas, on October 25th, 1984, don’t you?
Yes, sir.
Q. You were here with Henry on that trip, weren’t you?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. How many grand juries did Henry Lucas testify before in all your experience with the Henry Lucas task force?
A. It was the one and only.
Q. Do you recall whether Henry Lucas had been out looking at any crime scenes that day on October 25th, 1984, here in El Paso County, Texas?
A. Yes, sir, I believe he had.
Q. Do you recall if those were the crime scenes for this Librada Apodaca murder or were they other possible crime scenes?
A. No, they would have been other crime scenes.
Q. And do you recall whether or not Henry Lucas was ever charged or accused of committing any of those crimes that he was taking people to these crime scenes?
A. I don’t think he was charged with them.
Q. Do you know if they were ever able to confirm that these alleged offenses even occurred
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that Henry took to - -people to these crime scenes?
I don’t think they were. I’m not sure on that, but I don’t think they were.
Q. In other words, Henry was trying to take these people to where he supposedly had buried bodies in the desert, but they were never able to find the bodies. Is that what you remember?
A. Yes, that’s correct.
Q. Did you-all have any term that you would give to these trips where Henry would take you out to some alleged crime scene and you would finally decide that maybe no crime had ever occurred?
A. Would you - - Did we have a time?
Q. A term. Did you ever call that anything when you would make a dry run like that?
A. Negative results, unconfirmed, things like this. Just, you know, use various descriptions about it. No certain terminology.
Q. When Henry Lucas was in El Paso on the 25th of October of ’84, when did you first learn about him appearing before the grand jury?
A. I believe it was that afternoon.
Q. Who did you learn that from?
A. I believe it was from Mr. Moody.
Q. Did Mr. Moody request - - make a request to
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you that Henry appear before the grand jury that evening?
I believe it was to Henry.
Q. Mr. Moody here asked Henry if he would appear before the grand jury that evening?
A. Possibly. I think that’s the way it was.
Q. Is that the way you recall that happening?
A. Vaguely, yes.
Q. Do you recall having any discussions with Henry Lucas after he received that request?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you recall Henry saying that he didn’t think he wanted to appear before the grand jury?
A. I talked to Henry about appearing and I told him that that decision was up to him, that he would have to be the one making it, that I was not an attorney, I could not advise him.
I told him, you know, our schedule is limited and if we, you know, if the grand jury starts subpoenaing you in to talk to them, it’s going to take up a lot of time. And I said, “But, I can’t advise you.”
And I believe that Henry wanted to talk with someone and I believe that someone was Sergeant Prince. I’m not sure. But he called him and talked
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To him, and it was my understanding that Sergeant Prince could not advise - - or did - - or would not advise Henry what to do. He said, “It’s strictly up to you.”
And so Henry decided that he would go in. He told me, he said, “I will go in and appear before them, but this is going to be my one and only time.”
I said, “Whatever your decision is, Henry, it’s up to you.”
Q. Didn’t you call Sister Clemmie for him that evening?
A. It could have been.
Q. Do you remember talking to Sister Clemmie and explaining to her that Mr. Moody wanted Henry Lucas to appear before the grand jury that evening?
A. Possibly. I don’t remember. I don’t recall the thing, the whole thing sharply in my mind, but I possibly did, yes. Yes, sir.
Q. And do you recall asking Sister Clemmie to please tell Henry to appear before the grand jury because that’s what the people in El Paso wanted?
A. No, I don’t recall that. That is not my business to tell him to appear before the - - any grand jury. I am not an attorney and I could not advise him of that and I would not advise him of that
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or I wouldn’t advise Sister Clemmie of it, either, to have him appear before them.
Q. Well, before Henry decided to appear before that grand jury, he talked to Bill Moody, didn’t he?
A. I think so.
Q. He talked to you?
A. Yes.
Q. And he talked to Bob Prince?
A. Yes, I think so.
Q. And he talked to Sister Clemmie?
A. Possibly, yes.
Q. Do you know of anybody else he talked to?
A. No, sir, I don’t.
Q. He didn’t talk to a lawyer, did he?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did he have a lawyer in Georgetown that day?
A. Yeah, probably did. I think Don Higginbotham and Parker McCollough possibly was still - - I’m not sure, but I think they were probably still representing him legally some way or another.
Q. And when you were calling Sister Clemmie so Henry could talk to her, did you also call one of those two lawyers so Henry could talk to them?
A. I called who Henry wanted to call. I did not take it on myself to call anybody. That was
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Henry’s request that I call those people.
Q. Did you call any lawyers for Henry that day?
A. Henry never requested any lawyers be called.
Q. But did you - -
A. If he had requested it, I certainly would have called an attorney for him.
Q. Did you ask to see if a local El Paso attorney was available to consult with Henry Lucas about this decision whether or not to appear before the grand jury?
A. I know no El Paso attorneys.
Q. Did you know whether one could be made available to Henry?
A. No, sir, I didn’t.
Q. Before Henry appeared before that grand jury, you were aware that Henry was going to appear before that grand jury to confess to a crime rather that deny a crime, weren’t you?
A. I did not know what Henry was going to testify to. That was Henry’s decision to go before that El Paso grand jury, and I do not - -I did not know what he was going to testify to.
Q. Were you not aware that he previously made statements that he had murdered Librada Apodaca here in El Paso County, Texas?
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Yes, sir, I was aware of that.
Q. And that he had made - - that he had confirmed those statements on that day?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. He had done that in your presence, hadn’t he?
A. I don’t know whether we talked about the Apodaca case then or not.
Q. It was your assumption that he would go before that grand jury to admit his involvement in the case rather than deny it?
A. I didn’t assume anything with Henry Lucas.
Q. Did you think he would deny killing Librada Apodaca when he appeared before the grand jury?
A. I did not know. As I have already stated, I did not know what Henry would say or anything. I knew that he had confessed to the murder, yes, but when you he went before the grand jury, I didn’t have the slightest idea what he would get in there and say.
Q. Did Bill Moody ever relate anything to you that Henry Lucas would appear before the grand jury and deny any involvement in that case?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did anyone?
A. No, sir. I don’t remember that ever being discussed, what Henry would testify to or what he
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would say or anything like that.
Q. You were with Henry in Sierra Blanca, Texas, on September 19th, 1984. Is that correct?
A. September the 19th, ’84, yes, sir.
Q. And were you there when two officers from El Paso came down and interviewed Henry that afternoon at the jail there?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And were those officers Benito Perez and Jimmy Apodaca?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And do you recall them tape recording an interview with Henry Lucas about this murder of Librada Apodaca?
A. I was not present when those officers talked to him. I do not know what all was said. I never heard any tape from the recording or anything like that.
When the officers got through talking to Henry, to the best of my memory, they came out and they said, “We need him in El Paso, Texas.” And Henry was indicating he wanted to go.
He said, “I’ll go for this case only,” and he wanted to go. He said it was his case.
And so I said, “Okay, we’ll go. We will get
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clearance to go.”
Q. Did Henry talk to you about having a bad experience previously in El Paso?
A. He had talked about that on the airplane back from the first trip.
Q. Would that have been in February of ’84?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Yesterday when Jerry smith for Odessa was testifying, he read from Henry’s initial statement concerning this crime and he said - - and the statement said something to the effect that Henry had tried to confess to this crime before in El Paso but the officers didn’t believe him, they wouldn’t believe anything he said.
Is that something about what you’re - - what might have occurred when Henry was out here the first time?
No. What Henry told me the first time he was out here, he said that the officers wouldn’t go where he wanted them to go, said they just got out there and drove him around. And he said, you know, “They wouldn’t go where I told them to take me. I’m not going to show them anything else.”
I said, “You know, whatever.”
And he was mad at the El Paso officers after
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That. He said, “I got cases out there, but I’m not going to show them or tell them.” He said, “They want, you know, to do it their way. They want to get out there and drive me around.”
And he said, “I’m just not going to show them.” And then he comes back and shows them one.
Q. The interview in Sierra Blanca, did Henry have a lawyer that day?
A. No, sir, he didn’t.
Q. Do you know if he talked to any lawyer that day?
A. He never asked for one.
Q. Do you know if he talked with any lawyer that day?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did he have a lawyer available to him in Sierra Blanca?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did he have a lawyer in Georgetown at the time?
A. We keep coming back to this Georgetown. Yes, I think those fellows would - - they were appointed for legal representation on a case and they would give him legal advice, some during the time that we were there, I think. But, yes, they would probably talk to him
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had he called them.
Q. Now, during this period of time from - - that the task force was in operation, the task force probably talked to Henry about two or three thousand cases, didn’t they?
A. Probably so.
Q. Did the task force ever make arrangements to have a lawyer appointed to represent Henry Lucas to advise him as to his legal rights regarding all of these confessions as they would come in rather than having Higginbotham and McCollough there to represent Henry on one particular case he had been indicted on?
A. Would you rephrase the part about did the task force have an attorney or - -
Q. Did the task force ever make arrangements for Henry Lucas to have a lawyer to advise him of his legal rights regarding all of these two to three thousand cases the task force was questioning Henry Lucas about?
A. Henry Lucas did not want attorneys. He didn’t like them. He didn’t want any representation. He made that clear time and time again. And I cannot speak for all officers, but I can speak for myself.
When I questioned him, he was given each and every time the Miranda warning which says, you know,
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If you want an attorney, you have the right to have an attorney present. And many times I’d ask him, “Henry, do you want an attorney?”
“No, I don’t want an attorney.” So - -
Q. Have you ever testified in a case where a defendant represented himself?
A. Have I ever testified in a case where a defendant represented himself?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. Yes, misdemeanor cases, but - - I think so, in felons.
Q. Are you familiar with cases were, if a defendant wants to represent himself the general practice would be for the a judge to appoint a lawyer to sit there with him whether the defendant liked it or not?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did the task force make arrangements for Henry to have a lawyer to advise him of his legal rights on all of these cases whether Henry liked it or not?
A. We consulted Don Higginbotham and Parker McCollough in situations where Henry would waive his right to go out of state, take him before a judge.
In cases - - In talking to him about murders,
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Henry would be given his rights. He would decline to have an attorney present. He did not - - would not ask for an attorney. And if he had asked for an attorney, certainly we would have had him an attorney present if he would have requested it.
Q. My question still remains, however: Did the task force make arrangements for Henry to have a lawyer to advise him of his rights whether Henry requested it or not?
A. I think - - And this I’m speaking in - - I think Parker McCollough and Don Higginbotham would have been available and I think they would have talked to Henry.
No, the task force had not appointed Henry Lucas an attorney. We did not hire him an attorney. We did not have any money to hire him an attorney and we certainly would leave that up to a judge to appoint him an attorney.
Q. Did you ever request to a judge that an attorney be appointed to be Henry’s lawyer to advise him on all of these cases that you-all were interviewing Henry about?
A. I didn’t no.
Q. Did you ever consult with the attorneys for the DPS regarding the steps the task force should
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take in the - - as you went along?
No.
Q. You never received any legal advice from the DPS regarding making sure that Henry’s confessions was legal and things of that nature?
A. No.
Q. Did you come with Henry Lucas on September 20th, 1984, to El Paso?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. Was that in the DPS aircraft?
A. Yes, sir, it was.
Q. Hadn’t you all flown to Brownfield, Texas, that morning?
A. Yes, we did.
Q. And wasn’t Henry Lucas arraigned on a case there?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. In Terry County?
A. I think Henry - -
Q. Did he plead guilty that morning?
A. I believe he pled guilty to that case, yes.
Q. Received life?
A. I believe that’s correct?
Q. Then after Henry Lucas flew to Terry County and received life on a guilty plea, he came down to
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El Paso to go with some officers. Is that correct?
Yes, that’s correct.
Q. Did you go with those officers and Henry to the - - to a purported crime scene here in El Paso?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. Do you understand that to be the house that Librada Apodaca lived in?
A. I did after it was all over with.
Q. And when you went there with Henry Lucas that day, did you-all go to that house and go in that house?
A. Yes, sir, we did.
Q. Did you go in the house with Henry Lucas?
A. I went into the house and I kind of stood around in the background.
Q. Did Henry Lucas go in the house that day?
A. Yes, sir, he did.
Q. While you were there?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And Henry Lucas supposedly gave certain statements that day about his involvement in this death that he is now under indictment for here in El Paso. Is that correct?
A. He did.
Q. And after that trip out there, you-all went
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
To the El Paso Police Department and a taped confession was taken from Henry, wasn’t it?
Yes, I believe that’s correct.
Q. And also a handwritten or signed written confession was taken, wasn’t it?
A. Possibly so. I have nothing to do with the taking of the confession.
Q. Were you present when Henry Lucas was interviewed and taped that day?
A. I was not.
Q. Were you present when Henry Lucas was supposedly given directions on how to get to the murder site that day?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. That was in the El Paso Police Department vehicle, wasn’t it?
A. That’s correct.
Q. Driven by Benito Perez?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And while that was taking place, was that conversation recorded, to your knowledge?
A. I don’t think it was. I don’t know.
Q. While Henry Lucas was in - - supposedly in the house of this murder victim, do you know if any of those conversations were tape recorded?
Page 828
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
I don’t think they were.
Q. And do you know if Henry Lucas was given his Miranda warnings that day before he or as soon as he arrived at the airport out at the Southwest Air Rangers terminal?
A. I believe it was after lunch Benito Perez gave him his warning.
Q. Is that the lunch where you-all went to that Forti’s Mexican restaurant here in town?
A. That’s correct.
Q. And do you know if Henry Lucas was given those same warnings before he gave that confession here at the El Paso Police Department?
A. I don’t know because I wasn’t present during that time.
Q. Do you know if Henry Lucas was interrogated any after he gave that confession here in El Paso?
A. I don’t know. You’re talking about that same day?
Q. Same day, September 20th.
A. I really couldn’t say because I wasn’t there.
Q. What happened when Henry was at that house, can you remember, from when you-all arrived, pulled up to the house?
A. Henry had gone to the house. I think he had - -
Page 829
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
We had to wait awhile for a lady who then owned the house to get there and unlock it. Her little gorl was there and the lady was called from somewhere. She was working, I believe, and we had to wait.
And Henry had, to the best of my memory, had described the rooms from outside of the house where Mrs. Apodaca had been and where he would have killed her at. Once the house was unlocked by a lady that owned the house, the officers and Henry went inside. Henry took them through the house showing them the various rooms. I remember Henry taking them to the bedroom where the lady had been, talking about her running and him falling back or whatever, talking about an axe being there, talking about striking her with the axe, where she fell.
He - - I remember there was one bedroom in there that - -Henry talked about going into another bedroom and I believe this was after she was dead or something like that. And that’s about all I remember.
Q. When you were here - -
A. I’m sorry. And he told them about the bathroom. He took them to the bathroom.
Q. And you were hearing Henry Lucas tell this to the El Paso officers investigating the case. Is that correct?
Page 830
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Yes, sir.
Q. Who was present in the house when you were hearing Henry Lucas say this?
A. It was Benito Perez, Jim Apodaca was there, and I believe Ed Uribe - -
Q. Yes.
A. - - was there. And there might have been - - there might have been another officer. I’m not sure. But those were the only ones that stand out in my mind.
Q. What about the lady or the family members that own the house, were they there?
A. They were there. I believe that her and the little girl kind of stayed back in the background. They didn’t just follow the officers around. They kind of stayed back.
Q. But they were there in the house?
A. They were in the house, I believe, yes.
Q. Was her husband or anybody else like that around or just - -
A. No, I did not see him, a man. There had been two Hispanic males, I believe they were, there at the house earlier and they had left, I believe, and that was - - that was before that, I think, Henry ever found the house.
Page 831
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Q. Do you know who those two Hispanic males were?
A. No, I don’t know who they were. Q. Where they related to the woman and the little girl/
A. I don’t know.
Q. Did they live at that house?
A. I do not know that, either.
Q. Did they have any ties at all to that house, to your knowledge?
A. I don’t know. The only thing I remember, I remember and I really don’t even remember. You know, we made kind of a situation where these two people left and Henry - - we couldn’t, you know, describe what they were wearing or whatever, and Henry knew exactly what they were wearing. He had seen them himself.
Q. How many times have you been out at that crime scene?
A. Just one time.
Q. When you-all were going up to that house, when you finally arrived at that house, that wasn’t the first time you had been by that house, was it?
A. Well, the best I can remember, the area of the house kind of sits back. There is, I believe, a
Page 832
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Blacktop street or something that ran by there, and this house was kind of sitting back maybe like in a a little alleyway or something that went down to it.
And there was a - - Back there behind it, I believe there was a mound, a canal or something and trees and all. And we had - - I don’t know whether we - - I remember we had driven down the black - - possibly down the blacktop road that runs by all that property down there. And I don’t remember whether we came back up a street by the canal or not.
I was totally lost. I did not know where I was at. I had never been there before. I certainly didn’t know what we were looking for, and I was just totally lost.
Q. But did you drive by that house once before before you came back to the house and stopped the final time?
A. I could not say for sure, because if we had driven by the house before, I wouldn’t have known which house we were looking for. Had I known beforehand, I could answer that,. But I didn’t know beforehand what house we were looking for.
I saw a lot of houses and you know, and streets and all, but - - we possibly did, but I couldn’t answer you truthfully and say yes or no.
Page 833
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Q. When Henry Lucas came out here in October, he was out here for about three days,, wasn’t he?
A. I’m not sure. Possibly two or three days.
Q. Wasn’t that October 23rd to October 25th, 1984?
A. On 10-24-84 - - Excuse me. On 10-23-84, your notes indicate that Lucas searched in an apartment in north El Paso where he claims to have killed a French prostitute and the apartment was not found. What can you tell me about the French prostitute?
A. Where do those notes appear? Can I see?
Q. They would be in the interview log on 10-23-84.
Okay. Right there at the top. It’s hard to read because of the copy, but - -
Do you remember anything about Henry searching for an apartment in north El Paso where he claimed to have killed a French prostitute?
Yes, sir, I vaguely remember.
Q. What was the result of that trip to that apartment? Was that apartment ever found?
A. No, sir.
Q. Was the death of a French prostitute ever
Page 834
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
reported in El Paso, to your knowledge?
I don’t know.
Q. Have you ever been told that such was reported?
A. No, sir.
Q. Where else do you recall that you went with Henry Lucas on the 23rd of October of 1984? Let me ask you this. There on your task force interview log on the entry of 10-23-84, you have that there were no cases confirmed, is that correct, cases cleared?
A. Well, I don’t have any entry at all, I don’t guess, unless you-all had marked over it.
Q. Well, I think that green mark is my own marking, but there is nothing shown here that you cleared any murder cases that day?
A. No.
Q. Now, my notes indicate that on 10-24-84 your interview log says that Lucas - - that you were taken to the river by Lucas where a white female was killed. Lucas gave some details on homicide and picked out the photo in a lineup and possibly confirmed. Do you remember that incident?
A. Yes, sir, I do.
Q. Do you remember whether that incident was
Page 835
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Ever confirmed as having been committed by Henry Lucas?
I don’t know whether it was or not.
Q. Does your task force log indicate whether that was cleared or not cleared?
A. It certainly wasn’t cleared that day. It could have been cleared later on, but - - showing cleared, but I don’t have any knowledge whether it was or it wasn’t cleared.
Q. Are you aware whether or not Henry Lucas is charged with any offense in El Paso County other than the one he is presently on trial for?
A. I’m not aware of any other offense pending against him. At this time, there are no indictments.
Q. So you’re not aware of whether Henry Lucas was ever charged even with an arrest warrant for killing this woman by the river where Henry gave some details on the homicide?
A. No, I’m not aware of that.
Q. All right. On 10-25-84, I have an entry that says - - that cleared above murder of Sema Warren occurring 4-12-76, Lucas appeared before El Paso County Grand Jury.
Do you know whether that reference is to clearing the murder by the river or clearing the
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
murder of Sema Warren or if those are the same?
I don’t recall whether those were the same or not.
Q. Do you know if Henry Lucas has ever been charged with killing Sema Warren?
A. I have no knowledge of it.
Q. Your notes on that task force interview log state that it was cleared, above murder, but in your entry for the confirmed or unconfirmed there is nothing there. Why is that?
A. I don’t know. Possibly just didn’t put it in there.
Q. In other words - -
A. Let me - - Is that in the synopsis?
Q. The Sema Warren case?
A. Yes. Was it entered into the synopsis?
MR. PONTON: I don’t remember, do you?
MR. MOODY: I don’t think it’s in the synopsis. It was at one time. I think the final DPS chronology it is. I don’t believe it’s in there.
Q. (BY MR. PONTON): Yes, it was in the synopsis. Its old synopsis number was 199 and its new synopsis number is 185.
A. Could I see that a moment?
Q. This isn’t the synopsis itself.
Page 837
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
I don’t remember who Sema Warren was.
Q. That’s my own noted on it, but that might help you. Let me see if I can get the synopsis.
What did I tell you the new synopsis number was? It should say the new number right here.
THE COURT: Mr. Ponton, I want to remind you it’s 11:20.
MR. PONTON: Thank you, Your Honor. I’ll wrap it up.
Q. (BY MR. PONTON): Let me just - - Without getting into the details about Sema Warren, the task force - -
A. Okay.
Q. - - log here says that the offense was cleared by Detective Benito Perez, El Paso Police Department. Is that correct?
A. That’s what it says, yes.
Q. That’s in reference to the murder of Sema Warren?
A. Yes.
Q. That entry indicates to you that Detective Benito Perez has confirmed that Henry Lucas is good for the murder of Sema Warren. Is that correct?
A. At that time. Apparently Detective Benito Perez felt - - I remember the case now. Lucas had
Page 838
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Picked her photograph out of a picture lineup. I believe he had told the officers that the photograph of her was wrong, that when he killed her she had longer hair, which was, according to the officers, was right.
And it wasn’t anything uncommon for a person to say, “Well, I believe that Lucas killed that person. I’m going to confirm the case.” And then through administration or something else, the superior would not go along with it or whatever.
And I’m not saying that that was the case here. I don’t know what the situation was here. But they would consider it not confirmed after it had been reviewed by the officer’s superiors.
(Defendant’s exhibit marked, D-11.)
Q. (BY MR. PONTON): I’m going to show you what I have marked for identification purposes as a photograph marked as Defense Exhibit 11. Can you identify that photograph?
A. I believe that it the picture of the map in the task force in Georgetown and those pins represent murders that officers felt like Lucas had confirmed in various areas.
Q. Now, earlier this morning you testified that Henry Lucas had a peculiar interest in certain areas
Page 839
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
of the country, that one of those areas was Florida, one of those areas was Houston, one of those areas was California and one of those areas was El Paso. Is that correct?
Yes, that’s correct.
Q. Please tell me if you don’t see a whole bunch of pins on this photograph around Houston, Texas?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. And Florida is cut off that photograph, but would you guess that there are probably a lot of pins there - -
A. There would be - -
Q. - - in Florida?
A. There would be some, yes.
Q. How many pins are stuck on El Paso, Texas?
A. I don’t see any pins on El Paso.
MR. PONTON: Offer Defense Exhibits 10 and 11, whatever - - What do I have - - 9, 10, and 11 into evidence at this time for purposes of this hearing, Your Honor.
Do you-all have any objection to the introduction of the exhibits I have identified this morning?
MR. MOODY: No objection.
Page 840
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
THE COURT: No objection?
MR. MOODY: Our objection is to the writing on the back of the photographs.
MR. PONTON: To these photographs introduces yet, but they have no objection to what I have already offered.
MR. MOODY: Just introduction to the photographs, all the - - to the writing on the back, not to any of the pictures on the front.
THE COURT: All right. Then we will admit them for that purpose. However, the writing on the back is objected to and it will not be admitted for that purposes at this time.
Q. (BY MR. PONTON): Now, the - - in Georgetown, Henry Lucas was, to your knowledge, treated the same as any other prisoner?
A. I would say that he had a television in his cell. There were other televisions in the jail, however, but he had one in his cell. And I don’t know. Some of the other inmates may have had TV’s. I think the sheriff let them have TV’s. I’m not sure.
You’re getting into an area that I am not familiar with. I’m not the custodian of that jail and I do not know the policies and procedures of that jail. I do not know how other inmates were treated.
Page 841
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
I only dealt with Henry Lucas in that jail.
Q. You testified earlier this morning that you would go to that cell every morning about 8:30 or so to get Henry Lucas to take him to the task force interview room to begin the day’s activities. Is that correct?
A. That’s correct.
(Defendant’s exhibits marked, D-12 and D-13.)
Q. I’m going to show you what I have marked for identification purposes as Defendant’s 12 and Defendant’s Exhibit 13. These are photographs of Henry Lee Lucas in his cell in Williamson County, and in this cell, I can see about a dozen paintings, a television, posters on the wall, a civilian coat hanging on the wall, some phonograph records stuck in the jail bars or maybe a book, some other books, boxes of belongings, and some photographs of some personal friends. Is that correct?
A. Yes, that’s correct.
Q. How long have you been in law enforcement, 27 years?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Have you ever seen another county jail cell that looked like that in those 27 years?
Page 842
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
No, sir, I can’t say that I have.
Q. Do those photographs fairly and accurately reflect Henry Lee Lucas’ jail cell there in Williamson County, Texas, while you were there with the Henry Lee Lucas Task Force?
A. Yes, it does.
Q. And Henry Lee Lucas was allowed to paint his paintings when he wasn’t being interviewed by you or other officers. Is that correct?
A. That’s correct.
Q. And Henry Lee Lucas was allowed to wear his civilian clothes and have his television and have his books and his radio and other items in that cell. Is that correct?
A. That’s correct.
Q. Who is that jailer that’s in Defense Exhibit 12?
A. That fellow, his name is Hutch. We call him Hutch. Hutchinson, I believe, is his name.
Q. Is he still there?
A. Yes. He is not now in the jail. He is a PID officer.
MR. PONTON: At this time I offer Defense Exhibits 12 and 13 for the photographs only, not what is printed on the back.
Page 843
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
MR. MOODY: I have no objection.
THE COURT: Be admitted.
Q. (BY MR. PONTON): Now, did you ever receive any autographed pictures of Henry Lucas?
A. I got a painting from Henry that was autographed that Henry gave to me.
Q. Did you ever receive any plaques from some of these officers either within Texas or without Texas where you would go with Henry to try to clear their cases?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. How many?
A. I received one plaque from the Clemmie Curtis murder.
Q. Is that in West Virginia?
A. Yes. And I didn’t even go on that trip. I had no part in that, but yet they sent me a plaque.
And I received a little plaque of appreciation from a sheriff in, I believe it was, Jefferson Parish, Louisiana. I received baseball caps, I received law enforcement patched from other law enforcement agencies that would come in, things of that nature.
Q. Sheriff Jim Boutwell was paid some money to write the forward to a book about Henry Lucas called
Page 844
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
The Hands of Death. Are you familiar with that?
I’m familiar with the book. I’m not familiar with any arrangements that Jim Boutwell may have made with any book writer.
Q. Are you aware that he may have been paid for writing a forward to that book? Have you not heard that before?
A. I have heard that before. I do not personally know that to be a fact, but I have heard it.
Q. Have you ever been paid anything to do any writing about Henry Lucas?
A. I have not.
Q. Have you ever received anything other than what you have just testified to this morning, the caps, the plaques and the jackets and things of that nature? Have you ever received anything else, monetary or otherwise, as a result of your involvement with the Henry Lee Lucas Task Force?
A. No, sir, I haven’t.
MR. PONTON: Pass the witness, Your Honor.
MR. JEWKES: Your Honor, may we have just a moment?
THE COURT: We will take about a five-minute break.
Page 845
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
MR. JEWKES: Thank you, Your Honor.
(A recess was taken.)
THE COURT: Let me tell you what part of our problem is. We have got to get Mr. Lucas fed. They are serving lunch. I don’t know that the sheriff would keep lunch for him, so we have got to really move on or either stop or come back at 1:30.
MR. MOODY: I probably have less than five minutes worth of questions.
THE COURT: That’s fine. I would like to get the officer on his way if he’d like.
MR. MOODY: I would, too.
BY MR. MOODY:
Q. In regards to the Defense Exhibit 11 which was the photograph of some pins in a map of the United States or a portion of the United States, you cannot tell from looking at this photograph as to when this photograph was taken, can you?
A. No, sir, I can’t.
Q. All right. Now, in regards to putting the pins in the map, did you just put pins in the map because Henry would say, “Well, I have 10 in El Paso, 20 in Houston and 30 in San Antonio,” or something
Page 846
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
like that? Would you just start sticking in a bunch of pins because he said that?
No, it would only be after the officers had said, “Yes, we believe Henry is good for the murder in that area,” and then would confirm it to us that they felt that he was good for it. And that’s when we would put the pin in the map.
Q. And, in fact, you stated, I believe, that Henry had always claimed that he had quite a few in El Paso. Is that right?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. But for whatever problem he had back here in, what, February of ’84 with the officers and his discussions with them, he said he wasn’t going to help or make any of the El Paso cases at that time?
A. That’s correct. He got mad at the officers and said he wasn’t going to work with them.
Q. So the reason that there’s no pins in El Paso is not because he had not confirmed any at the point whenever this picture was taken?
A. That’s right.
Q. And there aren’t any pins in San Antonio, either, are there?
A. No, sir, I don’t see any down there.
Page 847
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Q. And later several were confirmed in the San Antonio area?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And the areas that he mentioned, Florida, Houston, San Antonio, El Paso and, of course, out in southern California, all of those travel along the route of Interstate 10, do they not?
A. Yes, sir, they do.
Q. Now, as far as Henry Lucas being given his rights, if they had a Guinness Book of World Records on who got their rights read to him more times than anybody else in history, do you think Henry Lucas would be a real good candidate for maybe holding the world’s record for having his Constitutional rights read to him?
A. I believe he would.
Q. And in cases that you would go to and discuss with Henry Lucas, whether they were mail-ins or other officers would discuss with him, Henry Lucas did not just confess to every case brought up to him, did he?
A. No, he did not.
Q. You talked about when you would, during your mail-in cases - - Again no mail-in cases were ever sent to El Paso - - from El Paso to you?
Page 848
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
No, sir.
Q. And particularly in regards to Librada Apodaca?
A. That’s correct.
Q. When you said that you would show photographs of Henry - - to Henry on occasion in some of these mail-in cases, what kinds of photos would you show to him and why would you do that?
A. Sometimes I would show him - - if the officers would send in a photograph of the victim, we asked for live photographs of the victims because that helped Henry’s memory, but if they did not have a live photograph of the victim, sometimes they would send in a picture of the victim being deceased.
And in a situation like that, many times I covered the body if it showed a stab wound or a gunshot wound or something like that that I would cover it with a piece of paper and maybe show a picture of the victim laying at the morgue on the table there from the head up.
Q. All right. In other words, these photos were not crime scene photos you were showing Henry Lucas?
A. There possibly would be some crime scene photos that I would show, yes.
Page 849
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Q. And - -
A. Pertinent information in the crime scene I would cover up.
Q. Why would that be done?
A. Well, it would tend to cause him to know certain facts about the case.
Q. No, no, not why those portions were covered up, but why would a crime scene photo be shown to Henry Lucas?
A. That might be the only photograph we had showing the victim.
Q. Oh, okay. In other words, if you only had - - But primarily they were used to show him what the victim might look like or what - -
A. Yes.
Q. - - what the victim looked like, so that - - was not your typical homicide case where you have a - - where you have one defendant who supposedly has killed one person. I mean, most homicides are one defendant who kills one victim. You don’t have to show them a lot of photographs because it’s the only one they ever killed; this is a defendant that allegedly had killed hundreds?
A. Yes.
Q. It’s unknown exactly how many, but certainly
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
multiple murders?
Yes.
Q. Now, you mentioned - - the defense attorney was talking about the I-35 discussion of cases, and apparently there had been, what, a problem along Interstate 35?
A. Yes, sir. That’s the reason why Sheriff Boutwell had called a conference at one time to discuss Interstate 35 murders.
Q. What kind of homicides were those, primarily?
A. They were bodies that were found along Interstate 35. Some of them were people that their cars broke down, some of them were business places particularly there in Austin on the Interstate 35 where the store owners or operators were shot, bodies were dumped - - found dumped along beside the road. This is not knowing whether they were killed there or whether they were just dumped out there, whether it was a dumping ground.
Q. Okay. Once Henry Lucas was in custody, did these Interstate 35 murders, as they were - - as the MO that you had been seeing along Interstate 35, did they also cease?
A. In our area, yes.
Q. Kind of like when they arrested Wayne
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Willliams in Atlanta?
Yes.
MR. MOODY: No further questions.
MR. PONTON: Just a couple.
BY MR. PONTON:
Q. Are you aware that Henry Lee Lucas has confessed to being a contract killer in Mexico?
A. I’m aware, yes.
Q. Are you aware that Henry Lee Lucas has confessed to flying poison down to James Jones in Guiana so James Jones could give the poison to the 900 people died after drinking the poison?
A. Yes.
Q. Are you aware that Henry Lee Lucas has confessed to committing murders in Canada?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. When it’s actually been probably confirmed that Henry Lee Lucas has never been in Canada in his life?
A. I believe that Henry has been in Canada. We had some Royal Canadian Mounted Police that came down, and I believe they brought information - - I’m not sure, but I believe they had information that Henry
Page 852
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Had at one time been there in that area somewhere in one of those provinces or they had a name Henry Lucas there.
Okay. Are you aware that Henry Lucas confessed to going to Switzerland to kill people?
I think it was Finland. It’s my understanding that he had said he had gone to Finland - - or maybe Switzerland. I don’t know. A foreign county, yes.
Q. Do you know if he ever did go there. Did you ever confirm that?
A. No, I didn’t.
Q. Did you know Henry Lucas confessed to killing Jimmy Hoffa?
A. Yes, sir. I know that.
Q. Do you know if that was ever confirmed?
A. No, sir. I don’t believe it was ever looked into.
Q. The last thing I want to ask to you is that you, on September 20th, 1984, went out to the crime scene on this case. Is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You spent a couple hours there?
A. Probably, yes.
Q. Spent about an hour trying to get to the
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
place?
That’s pretty close, yes, sir.
Q. You haven’t been back there since?
A. No, sir.
Q. When we break now, would you be willing to drive there with me and lead me to that crime scene where you have been there once before?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Okay.
MR. PONTON: That’s all I have, Your Honor. I pass the Witness.
MR. MOODY: Nothing further.
THE COURT: All right. Gentlemen, we will start up again Monday morning.
Mr. Moody, it might be of some help to us if you would let Mr. Ponton know who the next witnesses might be.
MR. MOODY: I have already told him, Your Honor.
THE COURT: It might help us to move it along.
MR. MOODY: As a matter of fact, I have been advising him all along on who our witnesses would be and who was coming up next.
THE COURT: I’m going to have him do that
Page 854
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
With you so that you can get your notes in order to see if we can’t move it.
MR. MOODY: They have already agreed to do that, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Good.
MR. MOODY: 1:00 Monday, Your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes, we’re going to start at 1:00 Monday. We’re not going - - Did I say 9:00? I’m sorry. 1:00
(An evening recess was taken.)
Page 855
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
IN THE DISTRICT OF EL PASO COUNTY, TEXAS
THE STATE OF TEXAS )
)
Vs. ) CAUSE NO. 43314-120
)
HENRY LEE LUCAS )
heard on
SEPTEMBER 15, 1986
Page 856
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
For the State: WILLIAM MOODY
First Assistant District Attorney
City-county Building
El Paso, TX 79901
RICHARD JEWKES
Assistant District Attorney
City-county Building
El Paso, TX 79901
CAROL PENNOCK
Assistant District Attorney
City-county Building
El Paso, TX 79901
For the Defendant: ROD PONTON
Attorney at Law
Suite 505
Caples Building
El Paso, TX 79901
DORIS SIPES
Attorney at Law
1011 North Mesa
El Paso, TX 79901
Page 857
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
WITNESSES PAGE
PHIL RYAN
Direct Examination by Mr. Moody 862
Cross-Examination by Mr. Ponton 866
Redirect Examination by Mr. Moody 954
Recross-Examination by Mr. Ponton 962
Redirect Examination by Mr. Moody 969
Recross-Examination by Mr. Ponton 971
PAUL SMITH
Direct Examination by Mr. Moody 971
Cross-Examination by Mr. Ponton 981
Page 858
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
WITNESSES PAGE
PHIL RYAN
Direct Examination by Mr. Moody 862
Cross-Examination by Mr. Ponton 866
Redirect Examination by Mr. Moody 954
Recross-Examination by Mr. Ponton 962
Redirect Examination by Mr. Moody 969
Recross-Examination by Mr. Ponton 971
PAUL SMITH
Direct Examination by Mr. Moody 979
Cross-Examination by Mr. Ponton 981
Page 859
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
EXHIBIT DESCRIPTION MARKED IDENTIFIED OFFERED REC’D
D-14 Notes 978 978 978 978
Page 860
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
THE STATE OF TEXAS )
)
VS. ) CAUSE NO. 43314-120
)
HENRY LEE LUCAS )
BE IT REMEMBERED that on the 15th day of September, 1986, beginning at 1:10 p.m., came to be heard the continuation of pretrial motions in the above styled and numbered casue, before the HONORABLE BRUNSON MOORE, Judge Presiding in and for the 120th Judicial District Court, and that the same was reported by Meryl Wersinger, Certified Shorthand Reported and Notary Public in and for the County Court at Law Number Four, El Paso County, Texas, and that the following proceedings were had as follows, to-wit:
Page 861
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
THE COURT: Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen of the jury.
Officer, would you please raise your right hand?
Thank you. Officer, just for me, what is your name, sir,
MR. RYAN: Phil Ryan.
THE COURT: P H I L L I P?
MR. RYAN: P H I L.
THE COURT: Oh, I’m sorry.
PHIL RYAN,
Having been duly sworn by the Court to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, was examined and testified as follows:
BY MR. MOODY:
Q. Ranger Ryan, what is your profession or how are you employed and how long?
A. Texas Department of Safety, Texas Ranger Service. Been with the department 18 years, been with Rangers six years.
Q. Were you stationed out of?
A. Decatur, Texas.
Q. Where is that?
Page 862
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
That’s north of Fort Worth.
Q. North and east of Fort Worth?
A. North and a little west.
Q. Pardon me. West. Now, did - - were you ever involved in the Henry Lucas investigation?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. At what - - Drawing your attention back to, I guess, June of 1983, June 11th, 1983, do you recall if the defendant sitting here in the courtroom is the person that was the person arrested out of Montaque County?
A. Yes, sir, it was.
Q. How long was Henry Lucas in either Montaque or Quay County, Texas, in reference to the Becky Powell and Kate Rich murder cases?
A. Approximately, four months. I don’t remember. June, July August - - It seems like he was there until September.
Q. So he was there from June 11th September - - sometime in September of ’83.
A. Yes.
Q. You were not the person in charge of his custody?
A. Was not.
Q. Was not. That was the sheriff of Montaque
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
County?
Yes, sir, and Quay County.
Q. And the sheriff of Quay County. Did any El Paso officers ever call and during June, July, August or September of ’83 and ask you anything about Henry Lucas and the murder of a person by the name of Librada Apodaca?
A. I do not recall it. There were many, many phone calls.
Q. But in particular do you remember a person by the name of Benito Perez, Jimmy Apodaca or Ed Uribe, any one of those three?
A. I don’t recall them, no.
Q. You had not done anything in regards to the Librada Apodaca murder until the time when I called you, am I the first person that talked to you?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. That was after the indictment of Henry Lucas?
A. I don’t know when the indictment was, but when you talked to me, that’s the first time I had taken any action or done anything on the particular case.
Q. And that was the time period such after Henry Lucas had left Montaque and Quay County. Isn’t that - -
Page 864
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
That’s correct.
Q. In regards to the murders of Kate Rich and Becky Powell, did Henry Lucas led you or give you information which led to the finding of Human body remains?
A. Yes, sir, he did.
Q. In which of those cases?
A. Both.
Q. What was it that led you to the remains of either of those individuals?
A. No, sir. We had a diligent search for both of them.
Q. Subsequently did Henry Lucas plead guilty to the Kate Rich murder case?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And was sentenced to what?
A. 75 years.
Q. Then in Denton, Texas, there was a trial to a jury?
A. That’s correct.
Q. The jury found him guilty?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. For the offense of murder. And what was he
Page 865
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
sentenced to in that case?
Life.
Q. You have already testified at previous suppression hearings regarding how those confessions where taken?
A. Yes, sir, it seems like many times.
Q. Both in regards to the Powell case and the Kate Rich case?
A. Yes, sir, and others.
Q. And the district judges who have ruled on those issues, have they always ruled that those confessions were admissible?
A. Yes, sir.
MR. MOODY: All right. Pass the witness.
BY MR. PONTON
Q. Ranger Ryan, did you review any materials before you come today to testify?
A. No, sir. The only thing that I looked at was something - - Of course, I had already left everything I had here. What I didn’t leave I sent back to you, so I had nothing to review.
After we came here, in some of Paul Smith’s material he recovered three or four yellow legal
Page 866
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
sheets of notes that somehow he had obtained of mine. I looked over those.
Q. Were those notes that you made on the night of June 15th, 1983, when you interviewed Henry Lee Lucas?
A. After looking at them, the best I recall, I believe that’s what it was, notes made of while a tape recording was made on two or three of the sheets. And on the third sheet, it looks like that was dated August of ’82. That was of, if I recall right, August the 29th.
Q. That would have been notes taken at the beginning of your investigation in the disappearance of Kate Rich?
A. No, sir, I recognized the notes. I don’t know. I had to cross-reference the date, August the - - September - - August the 29th. I believe one of the notes it looks like was the time I was talking to Henry while - - about Jack Smart.
If you let me look at them again, I’ll recall them again.
Q. You mentioned that some of those were notes taken on June 15th, 1983, during the tape recording of an interview with Henry Lucas. Do you have a copy of that tape recording with you?
Page 867
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
No, sir, I don’t.
Q. Do you know where a copy of that tape recording is?
A. I don’t know if there is any copies. The one that I made I turned over to the district attorney’s at Montaque County. I’m sure it was entered into evidence in that trial, and from there it could have went to some other, either to Denton or Georgetown.
Q. How many tape recordings of interviews or confessions between you and Henry Lucas did you make during the time you were investigating Henry Lucas? Do you have any idea?
A. No, sir.
Q. Would it be many?
A. That I made personally myself?
Q. Yes.
A. No, sir. Probably - - well, they are all in the box.
Q. Okay. In the box that you brought with you today?
Seven or eight?
Yes, sir. It was the box that I brought in June and left here.
Q. And you have copies of all the taped
Page 868
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
confessions you took from Henry Lucas in there except for the first one which is in evidence. Is that correct?
That’s correct.
Q. Now, in response to Mr. Moody’s question, you said that you did not recall receiving any telephone calls from any El Paso officers regarding the Librada Apodaca murder. Is that correct?
A. That’s correct. I did not recall.
Q. Do you, however, recall receiving any telephone calls from El Paso officers about any El Paso area murder in regards to Henry Lucas?
A. No.
Q. Not just the Apodaca murder, but any - -
A. Any murders?
Q. Any murders.
A. I don’t recall El Paso, no, sir.
Q. When you were in charge of Henry Lucas there at the Montaque County jail, that period of time would have been from approximately June 11th of ’83 until about the end of that summer. Is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And it would have been about the end of August of ’83 when Henry Lucas would have gone to Williamson County with Sheriff Jim Boutwell. Is that
Page 869
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
correct?
I’m not sure of the dates. That sounds in the ball park now, I think. I had no contact with Henry while he was in Denton County, either.
Q. And it was about the end of that summer that Henry Lucas went to Denton County to be tried for killing Becky Powell?
A. That’s close.
Q. Okay. Now, during that two and a half - - approximately two to two and a half months that you and Henry were together in Montaque County, you received a lot of phone calls from across the state as well as around the country from officers inquiring about wanting to talk to Henry about offenses. Is that correct?
A. That’s correct.
Q. Did you take any notes or keep any records of those calls as they came in?
A. No, sir. At that time, it was impossible. Now, I did keep a log of the officers that I talked to. It’s not a complete log. At the time, it was just too numerous. When I’d get there in the morning, there would be a stack about three feet - - or three inches tall.
Q. Of people who had called in?
Page 870
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Yes, sir.
Q. Now, that you say you tried to keep. Is that here as part of your papers here?
A. Yes, sir. If I had a personal contact with anybody from El Paso, I would probably have a name, not only the agency but the name in the book.
MR. PONTON: May I approach the witness, Your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes, sir.
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) I’ll just give you your box here and see if you can find it. You’re more familiar with what it is that your referring to than I am.
What I’d like for you to try to find is any El Paso officers in your log there.
I can’t find anything referring to El Paso.
Q. All right. Now, do you recall anyone else that was handling the investigation of Henry Lucas at that time receiving any telephone calls from El Paso officers?
A. No, sir.
Q. And that would include Sheriff Conway and DA Investigator Paul Smith? A. That’s right.
Q. And any of the deputies or anyone else who
Page 871
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
was assisting you at that time?
No, sir. I do not have any knowledge that any of them received anything from El Paso.
Q. Now, you took the initial confession from Henry Lucas on the night of June 15th, 1983, regarding his statements that he was involved in the death of Kate Rich, an elderly from Ringgold, Texas, and Becky Powell, who was a 15-year-old who was supposedly Henry’s common-law wife. Is that correct?
A. That’s correct.
Q. And that was a - - first a written confession by Henry that was handwritten and later reduced to writing in a regular confession form by you, wasn’t it, those two confessions?
A. Okay. The first confession was a recording. The second confession was a handwritten form by me dictated by Henry. It wasn’t a reproduced version of the audio confession. It was a second account.
Q. Then after that, Henry Lucas began confessing to other additional murders, did he not?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And when you were here for a deposition in June of this year, we went over some of those in detail, did we not?
Page 872
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Yes, sir.
Q. And I recall that you had a log that detailed approximately 77 murders that Henry Lucas had confessed to you about and that confession would have been shortly after this June 15th date. Is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And I believe that you testified in that deposition that you were unable to confirm whether or not any of those 77 murders ever took place. Is that correct?
A. Yes, sir. I believe my testimony would have been to the effect that I had no knowledge that any of them had been confirmed or not confirmed. A lot of them, when we had information sufficient to forward to the other agencies, we did so. A lot of them I never heard back one way or the other.
Later down the road I heard a little here and there, but at the time we were too involved in ne incoming stuff to where we were just able to put out stuff.
Q. Did Henry Lucas confess to the murders of anyone else between the time he confessed to killing Kate Rich and Becky Powell and the time he confessed to these 77 murders to you?
Page 873
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
No, sir.
Q. And out of those 77, you did forward to the agencies in those states and locations where these things supposedly occurred, you forwarded information to those in every case in which there was enough information to send them. Isn’t that correct?
A. That’s correct.
Q. In none of those instances where you sent out information to those agencies, none of those agencies confirmed back to you that such a murder had occurred, did they?
A. No, sir. I do not recall any of them coming back and saying - - That it did occur?
Q. Yes.
A. - - In the areas and locations that he did give sufficient information, no, sir. A lot of times it would be something like, we have got one close, a few miles off, you know, various different things.
But I did not get involved with the - - If it was something close enough that they felt like they wanted to interview him, they were welcome to come down and interview him, and many of them did come down and personally interview him.
Q. And Henry Lucas hasn’t been charged with any of those 77 murders has he?
Page 874
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
During that particular time?
Q. Of course - -
A. I would have to look at them. I would think the Plainview one. I thought that he was indicted. It seems like there were some.
Q. Is that indicated in one of the ones that he gave you in that list of 77?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was there any other one out of the 77 that he was involved in?
A. There was one in Odessa.
Q. Okay.
A. Maybe. I don’t know about Montgomery County, if they ever, or if that was part of them.
Q. After Henry gave you his list of 77, was that when you began to ask Henry Lucas about specific crimes that had been given to you by the agencies involved?
A. I don’t know if the list was up to 77. I think you’re referring to that little spiral notebook that totals 77.
Q. That’s correct.
A. You know, I don’t know if that book - - I didn’t just stop that book at 77 and start interviewing him. It probably - - Just in talking,
Page 875
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
When me and Henry would get together on something, if he come - - I had that book handy and if he threw in something, every now and then something would refresh his memory and he said yeah or we would be talking about another one and he’d remember another one and I would grab the book and slide it over and make a little notation just to reference back to.
MR. PONTON: May I approach the witness, Your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes, sir.
Q. (BY MR. PONTON): These are notes that were handed to me by Mr. Bill Moody. For the record, there are four yellow legal pages that are handwritten and I want to ask you if you can identify those?
A. Yes, sir, I can identify them as being my handwriting and I can attempt to answer any questions on them.
Q. Now, this first page here is dated 8-23-82. And you don’t have to read the whole thing because I’ll ask that a copy of it be included in the record, but could you please tell me what that is a reflection of?
A. The date, it looks like 10-29-82, “Interview at the request of Henry.”
Page 876
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Q. Now, to catch the Judge up a little bit on that date, wasn’t Henry Lucas in custody at that time in Montaque County, Texas?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And wasn’t that when he allegedly returned from going to California where his car had broken down in Needles, California?
A. That’s correct.
Q. And when he returned to Montaque County he was arrested on an outstanding but old fugitive warrant from - - Is that Maryland?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And he was held in Montaque County jail for about a week or ten days. Is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And then you-all, you discovered in teletypes to Maryland that they didn’t want to extradite Henry to Maryland and they were going to drop their parole violation charges against him. Is that correct?
A. The sheriff’s office handled all the teletypes. Personally I didn’t receive anything.
Q. But isn’t that what happened?
A. Yes, sir, that’s my understanding.
Q. And at that time Henry Lucas was released?
Page 877
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
That’s correct.
Q. So this would have been an interview you would have had with Henry Lucas when he was in custody in Montaque County, Texas. Is that correct?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. Could you please tell me what that - - those notes reflect as to what happened during that interview?
A. Looks like that - - I can look in my book here and be for sure on 10-29.
Q. Please.
A. But I believe that - -
Q. For purposes of the record, the book that he is referring to is a 1982 daily diary with a red cover, which book was kept by you during that year to make noted in on your daily activities. Is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you had a similar book for 1983?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Okay. What this was, Henry asked the sheriff’s office to get ahold of me and talk to me. When I got up there, evidently Henry had word that Jack Smart was in town. Henry felt like that Jack
Page 873
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
was going to kill him.
And also at this point, Henry changed his story on exactly what happened to Becky. He changed it from her getting into a truck at the Alvord truck stop to her leaving with Jack Smart.
Q. Now, please tell me who Jack Smart was or is.
A. That is the victim’s son-in-law that was married to O’Bera Smart living in Hemet, California, where Henry and Becky stayed prior to coming to Stoneburg - - correction - - Ringgold.
Q. O’Bera Smart was the daughter of Kate Rich, who was the elderly lady that lived in Ringgold in Montaque County, Texas. Is that correct?
A. That’s correct.
Q. And Henry Lucas had lived with Jack and O’Bera Smart in California in September and October of - - when Henry had been out there. When was that?
A. During the summer. I think he left out there - -
Q. Summer of ’82?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And it was after leaving Jack and O’Bera Smart’s house in California that Henry and his common-law wife, Becky, came to Montaque County to stay with Kate Rich. Is that correct?
Page 879
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
That’s correct.
Q. Now, what else do your notes reflect on that interview with Henry Lucas while he was in jail in Montaque County, Texas?
A. On the 29th, the first one you asked me about?
Q. Yes, sir. Yes, sir.
A. I went over Henry’s story and added the changes that he had made from prior interviews with him about his activities the day of the disappearance of Kate and until he returned. And this is basically his new account or at that time his latest account of what he did.
Q. Now, previously Henry Lucas had told you and Sheriff Conway in interviews in Montaque County that Becky Powell, his common-law wife, had disappeared from a truck stop?
A. That’s correct.
Q. And got into what kind of truck?
A. He said just a truck with a red arrow on the side was the only information he gave us the first time we interviewed him about it and also he had given members of the church around Stoneburg prior to us talking to him firsthand.
Q. Okay. Now, I believe that you testified in
Page 880
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Deposition in June that as far as you and Sheriff Conway both were concerned, Henry Lucas was your prime suspect in the murders of Kate Rich and Becky Powell almost from the time their respective disappearances. Is that correct?
That’s correct.
Q. Because Henry Lucas was allegedly the last person to see Kate Rich alive and you had confirmed that through another witness. Isn’t that correct?
A. We confirm that he had went - - had gone to see her and that possibly he was the last to see her.
Q. And that also he was possibly the last person to have seen Becky alive?
A. That’s correct.
Q. And he was arrested for their murders when?
A. He was arrested on a gun charge on the 11th of June of ’83 and indicated shortly after.
Q. And - -
A. I forget when he was indicted, but it would have been after the 15th of the same month.
Q. But you didn’t have any arrest warrant for him for Kate or Becky until the 15th or right thereafter. Is that correct?
A. Yes, sir, it would have been after the 15th or 16th.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Q. But from the end of August of ’82 until June 15th of ’83, he was and remained your number one suspect in each of those missing persons. That is correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, during that period of time, you and the sheriff and others in that area worked to try to develop leads linking him to those murders, didn’t you? In other words, you - -
A. Yes, sir. I would say there were some times when we explored leads we hoped or would link him. The majority of the work was just collecting evidence, you know, doing what we could to link it to anything or anyone.
Q. And, in fact, you and Sheriff Conway went to Needles, California, in early May of ’83?
A. ’83.
Q. To look at Henry’s car which had been abandoned out there. Isn’t that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you went out there because you thought that reports of a skeleton found in the desert near there might be the skeleton of Becky Powell. Isn’t that correct?
A. Yes, sir. Of course, we had put off going
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
there for several reasons, busy, economic, making the trip to California. Then when the word of the skeleton in the desert in Blythe, we decided to check it out and get the evidence at that time.
Q. For instance, I’m going to make a few references to your red daily reminder for 1983, and this was your original diary of your daily activities in 1983 and you had given this original copy to the district attorney’s office with all your other pages. Is that correct?
A. Correct.
Q. For instance, here on March 4th, this is sort of a random setting, but it says here, “Stoneburg, Ringgold, Montaque, reference missing persons. Contact John Cachingo.”
A. Kitchens.
Q. Kitchens. And who is that? What case is that?
A. It’s the Kate Rich case.
Q. Who is John Kitchens?
A. He is a psychic that the family asked to try to find their mother and asked that we assist him in looking around the area.
Q. Here is a reference in your book that you talked to Henry Lucas at Stoneburg on March 4th.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
That is correct.
Q. Do you know the result of that conversation?
A. No, there was no result. I can remember - - I think that’s that time that he was out building a little fence and I just stopped by there.
Q. Now, Henry Lucas lived outside of Stoneburg which is a rural part of Montaque County. Is that correct?
A. That’s correct.
Q. Where he lived was called the House of Prayer, which was a prayer camp run by a fellow named Ruben Moore. Is that correct?
A. That’s correct.
Q. How often during this period of time would you go by this House of Prayer to talk to Henry Lucas or Ruben Moore?
A. Well, there was no set pattern. Like I said, during this period of time, as you can see, I had four counties and had other cases going in each of them. When I would go by there, sometimes I would probably look, if I was on my way to somewhere else, but that would be the exception rather than the rule. If I was in Stoneburg or Ringgold, it was probably during this period of time on that case.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Q. You wouldn’t necessarily write down in your book every time that you drove past the House of Prayer, would you?
A. No, sir.
Q. Or every time you talked to Ruben Moore?
A. No, sir.
Q. But there would be times when you would do both of those things and write it down in the book. Is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. For instance, here on March 14th, you have a reference, “Montaque, reference missing person. Contact Sheriff Conway.” Would that be regarding the Kate Rich murder?
A. Yes, sir, I believe that would have been. Along about - - this is in ’83. Right?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. Yes, sir. I probably just went to the - - Sometimes I would go to the sheriff’s office, sit down and we would just be going over our notes of if we hadn’t seen each other in awhile, we would catch each other up on what we knew about the case. That’s probably what that was there.
Q. And all during that period of time, the spring of 1983, Henry Lucas really remained your only
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
viable suspect in each of those cases. Is that correct.
Yes, sir.
Q. And weren’t you and Sheriff Conway and DA Investigator Paul Smith all concerned about making sure you knew the whereabouts of Henry Lucas in general in that period of time?
A. Well, we sort of left it up to Ruben and Faye to let us know when and if he left. We just - - A lot of the times we didn’t go by or we did not conduct a surveillance. We didn’t watch him. At any time did we even have a one-, two- or three-day surveillance, at any time.
Q. Not a formal surveillance?
A. No. We were - - It was in our minds that if we went by there, you know - - naturally, if your working with a case, and one of your suspects lives somewhere, in one given day you might pass three or four locations that you would look over at just due to some cases you did or were - - or had worked. But - -
Q. For the benefit of the Court, when you refer to Ruben and Faye, you’re referring to Ruben Moore and his wife, Faye Moore, who both lived there at the House of Prayer in Stoneburg?
A. That’s correct.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Q. And they had been instructed by you and Sheriff Conway to contact either one of you immediately if Henry Lucas ever left the House of Prayer where he lived with them. Is that correct?
A. Yes, sir, we had an understanding with them.
Q. And they did, in fact, contact you or Sheriff Conway on a day in June, didn’t they?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. On June 4th. Isn’t that correct?
A. I believe that it was June the 8th before they finally said something. Sheriff - - They gave the sheriff a statement on that day, or Faye did. They gave a statement on the 8th that Henry left on the 4th.
Q. But there was no time prior to that that they ever contacted you or Sheriff Conway or made any mention that Henry Lucas had ever left the House of Prayer prior to that time. Isn’t that correct?
A. No, sir, they did not call me any time.
Q. You were never aware that they contacted you or Sheriff Conway or anyone else in Montaque County that Henry Lucas had left the House of Prayer at any time prior to June the 4th. Is that correct?
A. That’s correct.
Q. From - -
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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I’d have to make a, you know - -
Q. I know - -
A. There were sometimes past like in ‘82 they were telling me about some trips that he made, but that was at our request in statement form while we were there. But from the initial investigation and after the first interview with them, I don’t recall them giving us any information about him leaving.
Q. Now, you stated that at no time did you-all engage in any formal surveillance at the House of Prayer where Henry Lucas was. However, whenever you would be in that area, if it were possible would you not drive by the House of Prayer just to glance at it like you might do with other homes where other criminal suspects lived?
A. Yes, that’s correct.
Q. And you were aware during that period of time, weren’t you, of what Henry Lucas was driving or that he bought a vehicle?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. About, I think it was, sometime in March, wasn’t it?
A. March or April.
Q. Of ’83?
A. That’s correct.
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Q. And that was a maroon Pontiac?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you could see that maroon Pontiac parked at the House of Prayer when you would drive by, couldn’t you?
A. On occasion, yes, sir. I can recall times when I did see it and I did not see it.
Q. When you would see it there, what would you think? Would you think - - Did that indicate to you that Henry Lucas was present there at the House of Prayer when you saw the maroon Pontiac parked there?
A. I always judged the changes of him being there were greater than if the car was gone. I had no way of knowing unless I saw him.
Q. Okay. You were never told by Sheriff Conway or DA Investigator Smith at any time prior to June 4th or June 8th that they knew that Henry Lucas had left the House of Prayer, Isn’t that correct?
A. That’s correct.
Q. And there would have been no one else to have known about that other than the three of you-all and Ruben and Faye Moore during the course of your investigation. Would that be correct?
A. I don’t know if I can answer that. There could have been someone else. You're talking about
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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someone interested in the - -
Q. Of the investigation.
A. Of the officers and two major people, I’d say yes to that, but I don’t know who-all would have knowledge of his whereabouts.
Q. Okay. Now, here on May 16th, is that the day you and Sheriff Conway left Montaque County to drive to Blythe, California, which is where Henry Lucas had abandoned his vehicle back in September of 1982?
A. That’s correct.
Q. And you and Sheriff Conway spent about four days out there on that trip, didn’t you, on the way out there and on the way coming back?
A. Yes, sir. We left on Monday, got back Thursday.
Q. And on that trip, didn’t you or Sheriff Conway call back to Montaque County and ask one of the deputies to confirm for you whether or not Henry Lucas
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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rresent with Sheriff Conway on the other end of the line when he talked to the sheriff’s department and had a deputy go out there. It would have been - - Ramos is my - - what comes to mind, but it could have been Cordero.
Q. And Sheriff Conway received confirmation that Henry Lucas was at the House of Prayer sometime that week?
A. He had served confirmation, I believe it was, the night of the 17th, that the car was still there. The deputy did not contact Henry. He just checked.
Q. “Montaque reference missing person contact Paul Smith,” with a star. And then down here by the star you have in parenthesis, you have another star, “and may have talked to Henry Lucas on Monday, May 23rd”?
A. I don’t know. You know, this was made - - this addition with a comment was made after, years after. I think my recollection on that particular notation was after Mr. Moody called me and had me go through my notes and book, and see.
Q. Now, I have noticed in your book by many of these Lucas entries little stars like you have here on May 23rd?
A. Uh-huh.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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Q. Is that what you did, you went back and starred all the entries for Henry Lucas?
A. Yeah, and tried to reflect in my mind what that particular was. But at the time, “May have talked to HL,” I don’t know what I put there and I never could recall. But of those days - - What was requested of me was the days that I even remotely would have, so I took it to mean if I worked that particular case, there was a chance - -
Q. That you may have talked to Henry Lucas?
A. So I starred that.
Q. So what this means is on May 23rd you may possibly have talked to Henry Lucas personally in Montaque County?
A. There was a chance.
Q. On May 23rd, 1983?
A. Yes, sir. I worked that day and there was the possibility.
Q. Okay.
A. Usually if it was something that was report-worthy, I put interviewed or contacted the person interviewed.
Q. The next entry I see is on May 26th, 1983. You have a reference to Moore and a star there. What is that reference to?
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Let me see what I did here.
Q. Would that be a reference that you talked to Ruben or Faye Moore on May 26th?
A. No, sir. I’m trying to think. It seems like there was a Moore witness? Some of these robberies. I’m not sure. But that particular day I didn’t - - I was working strictly on the drugstore robberies.
Q. But you have a star on that page like you have on all the other entries you had on the Henry Lucas interviews or any references to the Kate Rich case.
A. I don’t know If that star has to do with that or even if that Moore has to do with that. I just can’t recall.
Q. Is it possible that that star indicates that you talked to Ruben or Faye Moore on Henry Lucas that day?
A. If I did, it would have been on the phone. I did not do it in person that day.
Q. But that star is the same star you were using to highlight other Lucas entries. Isn’t that correct?
A. I would hate to say that. I see one other time that I did it. I don’t see any other times.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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There may be some stars in there.
Q. Okay.
A. I probably - - I’ve got a habit of when someone is asking me, if I’m there, I’ll do some kind of doodling on that page of whatever I’m talking about.
Q. Here on May 27th it says, “Sheriff Conway and Paul Smith to lab with hair.” Do you know what that reference is to?
A. Yes, sir. They carried some of the stuff that we picked up earlier that week or we brought back that week from California.
Q. Okay.
A. I recall that because me and Paul got together on it and looked through our lab reports.
Q. Then these other notes here that you brought with - - that Investigator Smith brought with him, these last three pages look - - could you please tell me what those are?
For purposes of the record, these are the last three legal pages that Sheriff Ryan said had his handwriting on them. Excuse me. That’s Ranger Ryan.
Appreciate that. I’m going to say and I believe I’m correct in this, these three pages, if they go together - - I don’t know these two - - This
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
One here I’m going to believe probably goes in between these two. And they are my notes that I made while interviewing Henry on tape the night of the 15th. I won’t judge that, because I have got my counter on zero and at 165 starts Becky and so on.
And this is here. I recall drawing this because when he was telling me where Becky’s body was, I just couldn’t believe it because it wasn’t - - I was expecting a remote area or fields or something, and I had forgotten about this vacant field at the intersection of 380 and 35.
Q. But that’s a pretty well traveled intersection?
A. Yeah. I kept saying, “I don’t know where your talking about, Henry,” And he finally showed me which side. You know, and that’s what that arrow that is out on that field out there is the way I recall.
Q. The first paragraph is in reference to Kate Rich’s murder on this first page?
A. That’s correct.
Q. The second paragraph is reference to Becky Powell’s murder. Is that correct?
A. That’s correct.
Q. How, this next page, which would be the third page of your handwritten notes which you
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
brought, what is that first reference to? It says Saturday, June - - is that 4th?
June the 4th. That’s when he left. That’s when he was telling me where all he went. And without the benefit of the tape, it looks like to Amarillo to 10. Two hours. Must have got held up in a wreck. I think he said some girl named Diane was picked up. This description is where he left her.
Q. He talks about - -
A. Oh, yeah, this is the one.
Q. New Mexico?
A. That’s the one where he had a - - he had a cut on his - - a fresh cut on his hand. I think that we have pictures, a photo, and he gave us some story about holding a girl around the neck and sticking the knife all the way through and it come out the other side and it cut his hand.
Q. Now, here on this third page you have a reference here to desert, white female, 20, 25, September ’82, parenthesis, California, Judy, truck stop. Texas, quote, El Paso, unquote, week. Check Arizona, New Mexico, check.
Now, what is that in reference to, do you recall?
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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Okay. What it was, he was telling about picking - - he left a body in the desert of a white female 20 to 25 sometime in September. It was while he was gone after killing Kate. And he was in the desert in California. Her name was Judy. He picked her up at a truck stop in Texas, probably El Paso and had her with him for a week. She went with him a week before he killed her and left her in California.
Q. Okay.
A. That’s how I read my notes, but I feel like that the tape would be close to that.
Q. So what he is referring to was picking up somebody in El Paso in October - - or September or October of ’82?
A. Yes.
Q. Is that what your notes seem to reflect?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, after Henry Lucas told you that in that interview, did you correspond or teletype to El Paso to ask them if they had any missing persons here, and missing persons reports here?
A. I don’t recall doing it.
Q. Would you have any documents or teletype requests or any kind of notes that might reflect whether or not you did that, either here or back in
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Decatur or Montaque County?
I would have no idea where the teletype messages were. You will see them mixed throughout all this stuff. You have seen some teletypes. If it was pertinent to what I was working on, I probably would have a copy of it.
Q. Did you ask Henry Lucas about any other offenses he had committed around El Paso?
A. I don’t recall asking him any. I believe these are in response to, “Did you do any while you was gone that month?” He was talking about some. I think that’s a part of those.
Q. Did you ask him that same question on whether he did any when he left at the end in early June?
A. I don’t - - It’s possible. I don’t recall exactly.
Q. You don’t think you might have asked him that same question about murders occurring in June of ’83 the same way you asked him if he did any murders when he left in October or September of ’82?
A. It’s possible.
Q. Do you notes of that audiotaped conversation reflect whether Henry Lucas admitted to you that he committed any offenses in May or June of ’83?
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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No, sir.
Q. And this would have been notes taken during an interview you had with Henry Lucas on June 15th; ’83. Is that correct?
A. It would have been the night of the 15th, morning hours of the 16th.
Q. And you don’t recall Henry Lucas making any statement to you whatsoever about committing any murders in El Paso County, Texas, in late May of 1983, do you?
A. No, sir.
Q. He didn’t did he?
A. Not that I recall.
Q. And he was being questioned specifically at that time about murders he had committed. Is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you know if anyone else at the Montaque County Sheriff’s office kept any record of calls coming in from agencies requesting assistance in talking to Henry Lucas during that period of time?
A. No, sir. In the beginning what they did, they just took - - We changed our system later on. This is the sheriff’s department with two deputies, one secretary and myself to assist. They was just
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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taking messages and handing them to me.
Q. Now, these messages they would take, would those be from one of those little telephone message books?
A. Yes, sir, they would. It would be on - - Some of those, I think the majority of them, wound up being on those yellow stick-on deals or anything they could grab to write.
Q. Were any of them taken - -
A. We ran out of everything during that period of time.
Q. Do you recall if any of them were taken on those telephone message books that have a little carbon in it to where they keep a record of the calls that come in?
A. I’m aware of that particular sheriff’s office using those, but for Montaque that was a little fancy even during that period of time.
Q. Do you know if all of these messages were ever kept in one place after you-all did whatever you did with them? Did you-all keep a file of telephone messages or anything like that?
A. No, sir. The - - Where I’ve got it broken down into the states, this would be a copy where I complied - - or my wife took them and did it for me.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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Q. Try to compile them?
A. This would be some that haven’t been added to this list.
Q. Okay.
A. Those are the messages your talking about, the ones that I got in my office.
Q. I see. Now, do you recall any El Paso area officers traveling to Montaque County to talk to Henry Lucas?
A. During this period of time?
Q. During the summer of ’83.
A. No, sir, I don’t recall.
Q. Do you recall any officers from anyplace in west Texas traveling to see Henry Lucas during that period of time?
A. Seems like I recall Big Springs and maybe Midland.
Q. Odessa?
A. Yes, sir, Odessa.
Q. Sierra Blanca?
A. I don’t recall Sierra Blanca.
Q. Where else can you recall from west Texas? Hale County?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And these references you have just made to
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
west Texas officers, would these officers come to Montaque County to personally interview Henry Lucas?
Yes, sir, I think they did. Rather they - - that was probably their intention and they probably got to interview him on the majority of occasions. There were some occasions where I recall officers that did not get to.
Q. Now, there was a backlog of officers wanting to talk to Henry Lucas at that time, weren’t there?
A. Yes, sir. We got caught short on every kind of system during that period of time on taking calls, getting information requested out to agencies that would call stuff in, answering the mail and officers just showing up. It took us a week or two to get organized and get some help.
Q. Now, officers, would come - - eventually they started coming to see Henry because you would sort of set them up with an interview, wouldn’t you?
A. Yes, sir. Later on that proved to be the case.
Q. Would not they oftentimes come and interview Henry about several cases to make it a little bit more time efficient?
A. I can recall some instances where that happened. I don’t believe that was the rule. It’s
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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probably the exception rather than the rule.
Q. And sometimes officers would ask Henry Lucas if he were involved in other cases, maybe not even in the county, to see if he could remember anything. Do you recall that happening?
A. I don’t recall it, but I assume that it would be a good chance and probably natural.
Q. You received a lot of teletype messages in Montaque County or at your ranger office regarding Henry Lucas during that period of time, didn’t you?
A. Yes, sir. Now I don’t have a teletype at my office.
Q. So they would come to the Montaque County sheriff’s office?
A. Yes, sir. Or Wise County Sheriff’s or one of the other counties.
Q. And have all of those been preserved?
A. I’m sure they haven’t, not all of them.
Q. Are they in your documents that you brought with you or would some of them still be back at the sheriff’s office? A. No, sir, they would have been handed to me if they were directed to me, and then I would either copy the information down and throw them away or in some instances, I may have stuck them in my field
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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Note file or in whatever it pertained to. But I would say the majority of them, the information was received and the teletype itself was destroyed.
Q. Now, you earlier testified that you did not recall any El Paso area officers questioning Henry about El Paso area deaths. Is that correct?
A. Yes, sir, they could have. I just didn’t - - I don’t myself recall it.
Q. Do you remember two Southern New Mexico sheriff’s deputies having extensive telephone interview with Henry Lucas around July 15th of 1983? These two fellow’s names were Archuleta and Engelking?
A. Yes, sir, those names sound familiar. I don’t remember if they had a phone call or not. What county? Was it Quay County?
Q. No. One was Dona Ana County and the other is the county right east of Dona Anna.
A. Kingwood.
Q. Dona Anna and/or Otero Counties. One was a deputy from Dona Ana County and one was a deputy from Otero County.
A. Was it about a headless victim or something - -
Q. I believe one was a headless victim and I believe another one was an investigation into whether or not Henry Lucas had taken a victim from a truck
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
stop here in El Paso and dropped the body off in the desert somewhere near Las Cruses or if not, near Las Cruces over the mountain to Roswell.
This sounds a little familiar. And I recall during that period of time of maybe I’d receive some calls from two different agencies and I put them together to try to match up. It seems like they both had parts of bodies and one had what the other was missing and I just put them in contact with each other along about the time I came.
Q. And do you remember any investigators from the Federal Bureau of Investigation or the Department of the Army talking with Henry Lucas at that time about El Paso area homicides?
A. No, sir, I don’t. I remember the FBI on one occasion and it was New Mexico, I believe.
Q. Was it not - -
A. Indian reservation.
Q. You don’t remember the FBI talking about a White Sands Missile Range body to Henry Lucas?
A. It rings a bell. I remember Henry talking about dropping one on a missile range, on some road in one of these states where - - White Sands Missile Range or something like that.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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Q. When Henry - -
A. It wasn’t in Texas.
Q. When Henry Lucas would have these telephone interviews with these officers, would you be present in front of Henry when he is having these interviews?
A. Not totally. Sometimes. I can recall being there on some or getting to the phone.
Q. Did you try to be there if you could?
A. No, sir. I used that opportunity to catch up on some notes or making up some packets or running some phone calls.
Q. Now, you refer to making up some packets or returning some packets. At this time you were getting a lot of files coming in from other agencies asking you to ask Henry about those cases. Is that correct?
A. Yes, sir. But when I refer to packets, I’m saying, you know the ones where we got the blood type, was Henry this, that, where he was, we just went ahead and fixed up some - - what information was available to us and that way the secretary would just - - if they needed just that kind of information, she could handle it. And I would supply her with the packets to where she could - - keep her supplied to where she could turn some of that stuff around
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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without it having to go through me.
Q. Now, you were receiving requests for you to talk to Henry about offenses from all around the country at that time. Is that correct?
A. Yes, sir, or where was his whereabouts during a period of time.
Q. What was your response to them when they asked about his whereabouts in May of ’83? Wouldn’t you tell them?
A. I think at the first indication I had - - See, we arrested him in June. Up to that time that he was arrested, I think I would refer to it as being in and out of the Stoneburg area.
Q. And you would make these statements or references to other agencies who would be asking about Henry’s whereabouts later. Isn’t that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And I believe what when you were here in June in deposition with Ms. Sipes and myself back in June of ’83, June 11th of ’83, that at that time it was your belief that Henry Lucas remained in Stoneburg, Texas, until June 4th of ’83?
A. Yes, sir. I indicated that, but that wasn’t - -
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
I recall that question. You asked did I have any personal knowledge of his leaving from the last time in May that I saw him until I was aware that he left on the 4th of June.
Q. And you’d said - -
A. And I said I did not have personal knowledge, and that’s correct.
Q. But then I asked you, didn’t I, if it was not your belief that Henry Lucas remained in Stoneburg, Texas, until he left on June 4th, ’83?
A. Yes, sir. During that period of time my opinion was that he was probably around there. I had nothing - -
Q. To change that opinion?
A. Yes, sir. When I see somebody here this day and here the next day I just sort of assume they were there during all this time in between.
Q. And at the time Henry was arrested, you believed he was present in Stoneburg until June 4th?
A. Yes, sir, that was my opinion.
Q. And didn’t I also ask you if you had gotten anything to change your opinion since that time?
A. Outside of this murder, that is under investigation now?
Q. I believe that I had - - I June I asked you - -
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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I think your response was that you still had nothing to make you change that opinion. Isn’t that correct?
I don’t recall that, that question, that line of questioning in that particular. But at the time that we arrested him, I had nothing to make me believe that he was gone for any period of time from the Stoneburg area.
Q. Until June the 4th?
A. Until June the 4th, that’s right.
Q. Of 1983?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. That would include the date of May 27th, 1983, wouldn’t it?
A. Yes, sir. Based in what information I had at the time, that would include that day and that would have been my opinion at that time.
Q. Ranger what - -
MR. PONOTN: May I approach the witness, Your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes, sir.
Q. (BY MR. PONTON): How many murders allegedly committed by Henry Lucas in your immediate area of north Texas did you investigating?
A. To any certain degree?
Q. Yes.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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Just Kate Rich and Becky Powell. And there was a lot of Becky’s that I didn’t do after the fact. After we found the skeleton, I did no more. The Denton Police Department handled that. I - -
Q. Did you investigate for any crime up on the Reed River, up in that area?
A. Investigate Henry?
Q. Yes.
A. For any time in the Red River? You’re talking about just murders?
Q. Yes.
A. No, I don’t recall anything on the Red River.
Q. Do you recall any - -
A. Prior to his confessions of all these murders?
Q. No, after.
A. After?
Q. After.
A. No, I didn’t even, you know, other than check out what Henry told me about. That would be the limit.
Q. Did you ever investigate him for any bank robberies?
A. No, sir, but I know what your talking about. I know what Henry is talking about.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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Q. What? Would you explain what that is?
A. I was gone a few days. We had a bank robbery and I had to leave for a few days, and I guess Henry missed me. When I came back he wanted to know where had I been and I told him I had to work some bank robberies.
And he said, “Well, I’ll give you some.” He told me about something, some song and dance about robbing some banks in Florida.
Q. Were you able to - -
A. They did not pan out, if that’s your next question.
Q. You were never ever able to confirm that Henry Lucas had robbed any banks in Florida?
A. No, sir. I forwarded the information there, and the best I could tell you he didn’t.
Q. Did he ever confess to robbing any banks in Abilene?
A. No, not to the - - Maybe a savings and loan. That comes to mind. Not anymore banks. I don’t know.
Q. Did you ever confirm whether or not he robbed a savings and loan in Abilene?
A. I didn’t even check into it. I think he told some other officers. I was aware of him telling about that.
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Q. Now, Henry Lucas was arrested in October of 1982 on a Maryland fugitive warrant and kept in the Montaque County jail for about yen days. Is that correct?
A. Yes, sir. October - - Did you say October the 2nd?
Q. I said in October of 1982. I don’t recall the exact day, the date.
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. That’s correct it was approximately ten days?
A. That sounds about right.
Q. Now, who was Henry’s lawyer in October of ’82?
A. I don’t even know.
Q. Or did he have one?
A. I don’t recall him having one. He may not have had one. I don’t know.
Q. And Henry was released on that charge. Is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, Henry was subsequently arrested on June 11th, 1983, when he and Faye and Ruben Moore returned to San Jon, New Mexico, to Stoneburg. Is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And Ruben and Faye called Sheriff Conway
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when they got back to the House of Prayer, didn’t they?
Yes, sir.
Q. They said, “We’re back and Henry is with us?”
A. That’s correct.
Q. And Sheriff Conway had asked him to do that. Isn’t that correct?
A. Uh-huh, I believe that’s correct.
Q. And you - - And Sheriff Conway called you and told you that, didn’t he, after he talked to Ruben and Faye?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Didn’t you get up and you and Sheriff Conway go to the House of Prayer shortly after that and arrest Henry?
A. No, sir.
Q. When was that that you arrested Henry Lucas?
A. They came in Friday night. Faye and Ruben came to Decatur Saturday morning and met myself and Sheriff Conway in Decatur. Is that the one?
Q. That’s right. And that was at your wife’s restaurant in Decatur?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And they discusses with you-all Henry Lucas
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and a pistol he had at the time?
That’s correct.
Q. And hadn’t - - didn’t they tell you that morning that Henry Lucas had given that pistol away to someone else?
A. To Faye.
Q. To Faye. And he had done that prior to him leaving on June 4th. Is that correct?
A. That’s correct.
Q. And it was after that conversation with them that you and Sheriff Conway went to a justice of the peace and got an arrest warrant to arrest Henry Lucas for a felony for being in the possession of a firearm. Isn’t that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And where was - - didn’t Faye bring that pistol with her to the restaurant? A. No, sir. Her and Sheriff Conway’s wife went back to the House of Prayer, retrieved the pistol and brought it back to the restaurant.
Q. And when they were to get it and bring it back to the restaurant, that pistol was in the
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
control of Faye Moore at that time, wasn’t it?
Faye or Jeannie Conway, I don’t know which, actually.
Q. I mean,, when Faye went to get it at the House of Prayer, it was with her stuff at the House of Prayer?
A. Oh, I see. That’s correct.
Q. And had been since June 3rd or 4th or whenever Henry had given it to her. Is that correct?
A. The best I recall from her testimony, that’s correct.
Q. She never told you that Henry Lucas ever possessed that pistol away from the grounds of the House of Prayer,, did did she?
A. I don’t think she had any knowledge of him even having it until the time that he brought it to her.
Q. But she never told you or Sheriff Conway that she had knowledge that Henry Lucas ever possessed that pistol away from the House of Prayer. Is that correct?
A. That’s correct, to the best I recall at this time.
Q. And you never received any information from any other source, did you, that Henry Lucas ever
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
possessed that pistol away from the grounds of the House of Prayer?
I don’t recall any.
Q. You don’t recall receiving any such information, do you?
A. That’s correct.
Q. When was Henry Lucas appointed a lawyer after his arrest on June 11th?
A. I would assume at his first arraignment. I don’t know the date of that.
Q. And was that arraignment on the gun charge or to the murder charges?
A. I would assume he would have been arraigned on the gun charge first.
Q. Would that arraignment have been before or after June 15th, 1983?
A. I don’t know. I would think before, but I just don’t know.
Q. Do you know if Henry Lucas had a lawyer the night of June 15th, 1983, when you were interviewing him at the Montaque County jail and he was confessing to you that he had killed Kate and Becky?
A. I’m looking to see if I attended any arraignments prior to then.
I don’t recall if he had had an attorney at
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
that time. Ne never asked for one. My first recollection of his first attorney was after the confessions started, so he may not. If he had one, it was a separate one.
Q. When you say, “after the confessions started,” are you referring to after the confessions to killing Kate and Becky or are you referring to after the 77 confessions and then later?
A. After - - I don’t know, you know, this number 77 bothers me when I testify about it.
Q. I don’t mean to pin you down to that number, but what I’m referring to - -
A. Yeah, after he started confessing.
Q. You and I went over a notebook. It was a spiral notebook.
A. I may have added the first three days. I didn’t have all 77. The amount in there was probably added to over a period of time. I know there were several in there the first few days.
Q. But I’m talking about that whole grouping of 50, 60 or 70.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You’re saying he didn’t have a lawyer until after he had confessed to most of those. Is that correct?
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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That’s the best I can recall, within a few days of his confession that he was appointed an attorney. The first court date, I’m sure. I don’t know.
Q. You don’t recall him having a lawyer on June 11th, 1983, when you and W. F. Conway arrested him, do you?
A. No, sir, I don’t.
Q. And you don’t recall him having a lawyer present in the jail on the night of June 15th, and 16th, 1983, do you?
A. No, sir, I don’t recall him having one. And did you say present?
Q. Present in the jail?
A. I know he didn’t have one present in the jail.
Q. The first confession from Henry Lucas to any crime came by him writing a confession down. Isn’t that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And wasn’t that at a time when he told the jailer that he had something to say to the jailer?
A. Yes, sir, I believe so.
Q. And the jailer then called Sheriff Conway to come to the jail?
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
That’s correct.
Q. And then who - - That was that night of June 15th. Isn’t that correct?
A. Yes, sir, the evening.
Q. And who called you to come to the jail?
A. Sheriff Conway.
Q. He called you right after the jailer had called him, didn’t he?
A. No, sir. We went over. Conway didn’t trust - - he drove to Decatur, informed me in person and we later got together on that.
Q. And you-all went to the jail together?
A. That’s right. I picked - - He went home and got dressed. He was plowing. He went ahead and got dressed and I agreed to come by and get him. After I allowed him enough time to get dressed, I went by and picked him up.
Q. When you got to the jail, Henry Lucas had written out about a three-page handwritten confession to Kate and Becky’s murders, hadn’t he?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And then you and Sheriff Conway went in and had a further interview with Henry Lucas. Is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Q. And would your interview with Henry Lucas at that time have been tape recorded?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, on that tape recording, did you and Sheriff Conway give Henry his Miranda rights?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And was that at the beginning of that tape interview?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And that was the first time he was given his Miranda rights that day. Isn’t that correct?
A. I don’t recall. I would have documents, but I believe that was probably the first one.
Q. You don’t recall anyone giving him any Miranda rights before you did on that interview, do you? A. No, sir, I don’t recall.
Q. And you don’t recall being told by anyone that anyone else had given him any Miranda rights prior to your doing so, do you?
A. No, sir.
THE COURT: Mr. Ponton, do you have a place where we can take a little recess?
MR. PONTON: I am, Your Honor. If I could have a brief moment, I might pass the witness.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Why don’t we take a recess, Your Honor, and I’ll probably pass him when we get back.
THE COURT: I was kind of looking forward to you passing him now, weren’t you, Officer Ryan?
So was the witness.
THE COURT: All right. Let’s take a recess.
MR. PONTON: Thank you, Your Honor.
(A recess was taken.)
THE COURT: You about ready to start, Mr. Ponton?
MR. PONTON: I’m about ready to start, Your Honor. I don’t think I’ll be long, but I do have a few more questions to ask Ranger Ryan.
THE COURT: All right.
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) Ranger, when Henry Lucas was in jail in Montaque County, he required some medical help, didn’t he?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And did you have to make arrangements for Henry Lucas to see a doctor right after he was arrested on June 11th, or did Sheriff Conway make those arrangements?
A. No, sir. Sheriff Conway would have been the one to make the arrangements, but there was nothing - - The only recollection I have of any medical attention
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
That Henry got was probably the 16th, the evening of the 16th, the morning of the 17th.
Q. That was the day after his initial confession to you and Sheriff Conway. Is that correct?
A. That’s correct.
Q. And didn’t he require some medical attention because he’d attempted suicide?
A. That was the weekend following his confession.
Q. Before the attempted suicide, didn’t he need to see a doctor to be prescribed some kind of tranquilizer?
A. My recollection of that was that on the way from Montaque to show me the body of Becky, Henry was upset and he indicated that he might need something because it was bothering him so bad. But after we got there, he settled down and was calm and I didn’t think he was having any problems. But if he did have any, if he did anything else, it would have been in the presence of one of the deputies and that would have been after I went back to Decatur and it would have been after he showed us the remains of Becky.
Q. But didn’t he end up needing some Thorazine and some other drugs prescribed for him while he was
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There at the Montaque County jail?
Yes, sir. What is Thorazine is that for sleeping or for - -
Q. It’s a strong tranquilizer for someone who is real upset - -
A. Tranquilizer, okay.
Q. - - and sort of going crazy. They use it for mental patients and they also use it for people who have - - And I’m not a doctor, but I know it’s real strong in comparison of certain other drugs.
A. I was aware of him going to the doctors. I was aware of him taking some type of medicine later on, but I’m almost positive that he did not have anything until after he took us to Denton and showed us Becky’s body.
Q. To Denton?
A. Yes, sir, yes, it would have been after that that he had anything. And if it was that evening or the next day, I’m not sure of that.
MR. PONTON: May I approach the witness, Your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes, sir.
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) I have here some medical records from Montaque County and my copy had the month cut off on the left side there. Have you seen
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
that before and can you tell me the months that Henry Lucas first started to get Thorazine?
The soonest he could have been is June. That’s the earliest. So if this is 23 of ’83, I would guess 6-23 of ’83 was his first. That would probably be about right. I would have thought it would have been sooner. I’m not sure.
Q. In this it says Conway - - on blank- 26-83, Conway gave Lucas pill that was given to him in hospital last night.
Do you remember Henry Lucas going to the hospital on June - - on or about June 25th of ’83?
Let’s see. The 15th was Wednesday. My recollection was the 15th was we understand he - - when he first confessed or sent word for us to come down there.
Q. Yes, sir.
A. Then the following Sunday, I believe, he attempted a - - or I don’t know if I’d call it an attempted suicide, but it was an attempt at an attempted suicide.
Q. You were aware, were you not, that Henry Lucas required medication for his nerves during most of the time he was in Montaque County jail, weren’t you?
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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I don’t know if most of the time. I know he didn’t - - The first time he was in jail, I don’t think he got a thing outside of aspirin. The second time he didn’t get anything until after the trip to Denton.
And from that period of time on, it was probably - - From that period on, that would be probably a true statement that most of the time he took some type of medication. It was after he started seeing a doctor and whatever the doctor - - Unless I’m badly mistaken, I don’t think he saw a doctor until after the Denton trip and - -
Q. Mr. Lucas presented some odd behavior to you during the period of time you were interviewing him, didn’t he? Wouldn’t he slip in and out of some different kind of moods?
A. Oh, yeah.
Q. And wouldn’t there be times when he would be very cooperative and very friendly and other times when he seemed very nervous and very uncooperative?
A. I don’t know if you ever characterize him as uncooperative. He had different cooperative moods, some when he was all bull, some part bull, some days he would give the trust.
But as far as - - It may be false cooperation,
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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He was giving it. Sometimes he was lying to you, but it was always a cooperation.
Q. Henry Lucas wasn’t given any drugs of any kind before that June 15th confession?
A. No, sir. Like I say, I’d be highly surprised if he was.
Q. Was he kept in the same cell as all the other inmates at the Montaque County jail at that time?
A. My recollection was that he was kept around in another area of the jail than the main population. And again that’s just where I observed him or when I went and asked for him he would come out of that area of the jail. And if I went to the - - The times I talked to him through bars it was in that. So I’m assuming that he was in that particular cell most of the time.
Q. Was he fed the same as the other inmates? A. I’m sure he was.
Q. Allowed beverages the same as other inmates?
A. Probably not. Henry got probably more coffee than the rest of them. I don’t know. I’m just speculating on that, what I was able to observe while I was there. The day-to-day operations
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
of the jail, I had zero to do with that.
Q. What about tabacco, do you know if he was given any tabacco during that period of time?
A. What period of time are talking about?
Q. June 11th to June 15th of ’83.
A. From June 11th to June 15th?
Q. Of ’83, yes, sir.
A. I don’t know. I wasn’t - - During that period of time I didn’t even go to Montaque. From the time we arrested him until he went for us, I didn’t go to Montaque.
Q. Is this that case file of that?
A. I never was able to - -
Q. Now, can you find in your file here Henry Lucas’ initial handwritten confession to the murder of Kate? It was in some long pages that were folded back.
A. Yeah, it would be in here before - - Okay.
Q. You found it?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, to your - - What are you referring to is a Xerox copy of a three-page handwritten confession. Is that correct?
A. That’s correct.
Q. And this what we are looking at is a true
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
and correct copy of the confession that Henry Lucas wrote to killing Kate Rich and Becky Powell on the night of June 15th, 1983, in Montaque County, Texas. Is that correct?
That’s correct.
Q. And this was the confession this Henry Lucas was writing while Sheriff Conway was coming to get you at your residence in Denton. Is that correct?
A. I assume that’s correct.
Q. And you have seen the original of this, haven’t you?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And this appears to be a true and correct copy of that that we are referring to here?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, would you please read for the Court this first full paragraph on page 3 of that document?
A. “Whatever Whatever inside me I hope will leave me alone, since I am not allowed to buy cigarettes or make phone calls to get any. We will see what will come out of this mess. I have cigarettes at home, but I can’t get to call to get them and everyone can’t talk to me because I’m not allowed to contact anyone.”
You want me to go further?
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Q. Yes, sir.
A. “I’m here in by myself and still can’t talk with a lawyer on this. I have no rights, so what can I do to convince you about all this?”
Q. Do you know if Henry Lucas was given the opportunity to talk with a lawyer during the period of time from June 11th when he was arrested until the time that you and Sheriff Conway arrived at the jail to take his initial confession?
A. During those periods of time, I did not go to the jail. I have no recollection or no personal knowledge of the day-to-day operations of the jail. I do know that inmates are allowed all the rights and privileges as that at any other jail.
Q. Did you know if Henry Lucas refused any food during that period of time?
A. No, sir.
Q. Do you know if he was refuse - - if he was not given any food during that period of time?
A. I know that - - Are you saying was he not given or did he not - -
Q. Well, I - -
A. I can recall him - - I believe he faked a hunger strike once, but that was a long time later. I forget what it was. But during that period of time,
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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I’m not sure.
Q. Are you familiar with that document which is - - appears to be a handwritten calendar starting with Friday the 19th of some unknown - - some unnmaed month and going through the end of the next month?
A. Yeah. It’s got a birth date circled, so I’m assuming - -
Q. The 23rd?
A. - - that would be Henry’s birthday. So that would be in August, August 23rd.
Q. August 23rd, okay and has - -
A. What is the question?
Q. What is the title of that document?
A. “No food. I’m tired of lies. Paul Smith” - -
Q. All right. Then does it have some X’s by some of those days?
A. Friday, Saturday, Sunday, Monday.
Q. Do you know what this document has reference to?
A. No, sir. Q. Now, you were contacted by agencies to ask you about assistance in investigating cases that Henry Lucas was involved in during the period of time from September ’82 to June ’83. Is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Q. One of those was from Tehama County, California. Is that correct?
A. You got a document there and it’s hard for me to recall. There were so many, I would have to - - Was that directed to me or the sheriff or - -
Q. Well, what I have here, for purposes of the record, is the Tehama County Sheriff’s Department case supplement regarding a victim named Rachell Lee Ward who was apparently abducted in early March of 1983.
And in this supplement they talk about certain of these detectives, Detective Groves and a Detective Cash Dollar, coming to Montaque County and talking with you regarding Henry Lucas killing somebody in California in March of ’83. Do you remember that?
I remember the name Cash Dollar because it’s unusual, but I don’t remember the case that way.
Q. Okay. They talk about coming to Montaque County in August, August 8th of ’83, and interviewing Henry Lucas.
Now, please read the first three sentences of that paragraph here which is on page 4 of the Tehama County Sheriff’s supplement regarding case number 33-00718, and I’m referring to the last
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Paragraph on that page. Please read the first three sentences.
“Prior to traveling to Montaque County and during the interview on the proceding evening with Detective Reed, we were supplied a copy or a document bearing seven pages. The document contained general information in reference to Mr. Lucas. Of particular interest was his blood type was A, B, O A and that he was a nonsecretor.” Go on?
Q. Let’s see. The next sentence, too.
A. “Additionally, there was a long listing of activities surrounding 1959 up to present. It should be noted that there was a large vacancy between November 2nd of ’82 and June the 4th of ’82.”
Q. That should refer to June 4th of ’83. Don’t you think that’s correct?
A. That’s a good possibility.
Q. Now, do you know what seven-page document Detective Cash Dollar is referring to that he’d been supplied by you in August of 1983 regarding the - - Henry Lucas activities up to the present time, which would have been August of ’83?
A. Yes, sir, I think I do.
Q. Do you know where that is in your files? A. No, or even if I have one. I may have some
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Copies of it. What it would have been would have been a photostatic copy of Henry’s picture, photostatic copy of both hands or fingerprints, a photostatic copy of some of his physical descriptions, tattoos and such as that and personal information like one eye missing, whatever.
And then a travel log, so to speak, or as best that we can determine at the time, because of the many inquiries we saw right away it would be necessary to pinpoint where Henry was on certain days so that we could quickly refer to some of those people - - refer back to some of the people that he was in jail on this day or something like that to cut down on the amount that would maybe request an interview.
So that’s - - Probably that was one of those packets that I spoke of awhile ago.
Q. Would that document reflect Henry Lucas’ whereabouts in May of 1983?
A. I would think that it would reflect wherever or whatever - - The one you showed me earlier, I think or - - Did you have one earlier or was that Bill? I don’t know, but it probably would have been one similar to that.
And to answer your question, what it would
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Have reflected is - - What dates was that?
Q. My question was if you know whether that document would reflect Henry Lucas’ whereabouts in May of ’83, May of ’83?
A. Okay. May of ’83 it would have probably reflected - - My opinion at that time was that I probably put down in and out of Stoneburg or I could have used the word Montaque or Ringgold area.
Q. Now, this document that Ms. Sipes has just pointed out to me in your file here is a synopsis with reference to Henry Le Lucas from the Department of Public Safety. And here at the end of it we have known whereabouts of Henry Lucas.
Can you describe what that is there near the end of the document?
This is a report made by Ranger Clayton Smith.
Q. What about this one right here?
A. And - -
Q. Was this report made by you?
A. No, sir. That’s also made by Clayton. But what I was fixing to say - -
Q. Do you think is - -
A. This is information that Clayton got from me or the area up there that was available to us at that
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EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
time, okay?
Q. Yes.
A. No, wait a minute. He attached a copy. Yeah, this would be a copy of the part that went out in the earlier packets.
Q. Do you think that’s the document that is being referred to in the Tehama County, California Sheriff’s Department supplement that I just read to you?
A. Yes, sir, it sure would be. And here is some other stuff. That would have been part of it.
Q. If you were asked by an investigating officer where Henry Lucas was from November of ’82 to June of ’83, you would tell them that as far as you knew he was in Stoneburg, Texas wouldn’t you?
A. Yes, sir, in the area of or in and out of. I would have used those terms.
There is an old packet I was speaking of right there.
Q. Now, I want you to read to the Court here the first paragraph on page nine of this Red Bluff, California, supplement and then I’m going to ask you a couple questions about that paragraph.
A. Okay. “During the break in which Mr. Lucas was allowed to eat dinner, Detective Groves and I
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Briefly interviewed Phil Ryan, Texas Ranger unit.
Ranger Ryan stated that he had interviewed Mr. Lucas numerous times since his apprehension and had mixed feelings. He felt additionally that Mr. Lucas may not be truthful with respect to all information and further that oftentimes he makes up stories. He substantiated same by indicating that he made public a fabricated homicide and Mr. Lucas admitted the same.
In a somewhat contradiction, however, Mr. Lucas has led them to a homicide of an individual in a field that Lucas stated that he had done when, in fact, Lucas was in custody.”
Q. All right. Now, my question to you now is do you still feel the same way as you felt in August of 1983 that Henry Lucas oftentimes makes up stories?
A. Yes, sir. From the word - - From the beginning it was no secret that Henry was lying.
Q. Please tell me what it was you were referring to here about the fabricated homicide that Henry Lucas confessed to. Was that a homicide that you made up that hadn’t occurred and that Henry said he had done?
A. I don’t know which one they were talking about, but I would say as a matter of practice during
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
That period of time, going back to the times that you asked awhile ago about his - - he was always cooperative but he was not always truthful, probably every day or every so often I would, during the times I was interviewing Henry of known homicides, I would stick one in just to test his attitude for that particular day.
Q. Okay.
A. And on occasions he took them. He would indicate that he did them. The fact is that I, you know, I just made them up. Of course, Henry said he tested me a few times, too, so - -
Q. How many times did you think you gave Henry a fabricated homicide when you were going through other real homicides with him?
A. Like I say, there probably wasn’t three days in a row that didn’t go by that I didn’t test him.
Q. How many days do you think you interviewed Henry during the period of time from the middle of June until the end of August when he left to go to Williamson County?
A. I probably had contact with Henry most all those days. I don’t know without putting a pencil to it.
Q. So if you had contact with Henry Lucas for
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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75 days during that period of time and every third day would you ask him about a false homicide, would it be your testimony that Henry Lucas may have confessed to as many as 25 homicides to you that you made up to test him?
Probably not that many. We had some gag orders during that period of time that I wasn’t able to talk to Henry. But, you know, of those days I was talking to him - - And there were sometimes that I had court in other areas. It wasn’t every day that I talked to him, but a large percentage of my time during that period of time was spent talking to Henry.
And of that particular time, whatever the net time would have been, I would test him fairly regularly at about a three-day interval. That’s the best I can give you.
Q. Can you give me any estimate of those numbers? Would it be as many as?
A. Let me get a sample of a week here. Right in the middle of July I was busy on bank robbers.
Q. I don’t want - -
A. I bet probably if your - - I hate to give numbers just for the sake of giving numbers without feeling comfortable with it.
Q. Would it be a number between 10 and 20?
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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Probably between 10 and 15 if we’re figuring every three days.
Q. So it would have been between 10 and 15 cases that you would make up that Henry would have confessed to during the period of time that you were interviewing Henry?
A. I would say I probably fed him about 15. He probably took all of about six or seven, something like that.
Q. Now, I want to ask you a question about page 16 of this Tehama County Sheriff’s Department supplement where it talks about these officers interviewing Ruben Moore, and just read to yourself that paragraph.
A. The last one?
Q. The last paragraph on page 16 continuing on to page 17.
A. Okay.
Q. Detective Cash Dollar in that paragraph talks about interviewing Ruben Moore, who was the proprietor of the House of Prayer where Henry Lucas lived, and Detective Cash Dollar talks about asking Ruben where Henry was during this period of time. Isn’t that correct?
A. That’s correct.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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Q. And I can’t quite get the time element right here, but it says that Mr. Moore answered - -
MR. MOODY: Your Honor, I’ll object to whatever Mr. Moore told Mr. Cash Dollar. That doesn’t - - I mean, it doesn’t
MR. PONTON: I’m going to connect it up with what Mr. Moore may have told this man or what he may have - -
THE COURT: Let me ask you this: What - -
MR. MOODY: I don’t think it’s relevant to this hearing of the suppression of this confession.
THE COURT: I’m going to sustain that objection.
You know, Mr. Ponton, I haven’t heard one thing that is relevant to the suppression of this confession. That’s why we are here. We are trying to suppress this confession.
So, you know, if you have anything that you can get out of this gentleman concerning the confession that we are talking about that is before us, I would be just as happy as I could be to hear it. But I listened now for two hours and haven’t heard anything.
MR. PONTON: Well, I’m going to connect it up, Your Honor, by eliciting from this witness that a
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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witness in Montaque County has stated that - -
THE COURT: Well, if you can connect it up, you do it. Don’t tell me what your going to do. You just get it connected. Don’t go through all that spiel. Just get it done if you can do it.
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) Did Ruben Moore ever tell you that Henry Lucas had eaten breakfast at his table every day except for one day in June of ’83 and another day when he went to Houston?
MR. MOODY: Well, Your Honor, that’s going to their alibi defense, not to the suppression of this confession.
THE COURT: Well, I’ll sustain the objection. I don’t know. What does that have to do with the suppression?
MR. PONTON: Because I’m going to ask him if that alibi existed and if he ever told that alibi to Mr. Moody or anybody in El Paso prior to them taking Henry Lucas’ confession in this case, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Well, that was in another confession.
MR. PONTON: I’m going to ask him if the El Paso DA’s office knew about this alibi prior to September 20th of ’84.
THE COURT: Well, you go ahead and ask him
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
that question.
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) Okay. Do you know if anybody in the El Paso County district attorney’s office or anybody in the El Paso Police Department knew that Ruben Moore was stating that Henry Lucas was in Montaque County, Texas, every day until June of ’83?
MR. MOODY: At what time? He hasn’t referenced to what time.
MR. PONTON: Any time prior to September 20th of ’84. That was my question.
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) My question to you is: Do you know if Mr. Moody or anybody in his office or anybody in the police department here knew prior to September 20th of ’84 that Ruben Moore was saying that Henry Lucas was in Montaque County, Texas, every day until June 4th of ’83?
A. No, sir. I have no way of knowing that that - - what they know or what they knew at that time.
Q. Do you recall Henry Lucas asking for a lawyer when he was first arrested June 11th of ’83?
A. No, sir, I never - - Henry never asked for an attorney, didn’t want one.
Oh, you say the day of the 11th? No, he didn’t ask.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Q. Any day?
A. No, Henry never wanted an attorney.
Q. Didn’t you read to the Court his handwritten confession where he says he couldn’t be given an attorney - - wasn’t given an attorney?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. I believe his statement was, “I’m in here by myself and still can’t talk with a lawyer on this”?
A. Uh-huh. But Henry never voiced to me that he wanted an attorney, and talk about an attorney was always negative.
Q. Don’t you remember talking to Henry about an axe murder?
A. A what?
Q. Do you remember ever talking to Henry about an axe murder?
A. I don’t - -
Q. Let me ask you a different way. Do you recall that Henry Lucas told you that he was never involved in an axe murder?
A. I have no recollection of it at this time or - - I may have some notes that bring back my recollection, but he has told me one or two or three things about every kind of murder, I believe, at one time or another.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Q. Don’t your notes somewhere reflect that? My recollection, Ranger, is that I have seen that in your notes.
A. Okay.
Q. I can’t put my finger on it.
A. There was a little - - Henry sent a little memorandum out of the jail cell to me one time whereby he states, you know, I don’t want to talk to anybody unless I - - unless there was a Texas Ranger there or Montaque County, and that the only killings he had - - all of his killings were with knives with the exception of the ones that he used a gun with, I think.
If that’s - - I’m trying to remember. I recall a document like that, if that’s what your talking about. And at the early beginning he indicated to me that he only used knives and strangled a few and they were all women. And then, of course, all this changed daily almost.
Q. Did you ever ask him when he was telling you that if he had ever killed somebody with an axe?
A. I don’t recall asking him point-blank if he killed someone with an axe. I could have, but I just don’t recall it at this time.
Q. Do you remember being told point-blank by
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Him that he’d ever killed anybody with an axe?
I’m sure he probably said that at one time, and I’m sure at another time he probably told me how many he did kill with an axe. I don’t know. It was just - -
Q. But you’re sure that at least one time he told you he hadn’t killed anybody with an axe?
A. I recall one time seeing a letter - - getting a copy of a note that he sent out. He didn’t use the word axe. He just said that all his killings was with knives with the exception of he named some. All the ones that was done with a gun, I think he named them.
It’s very possible we had a conversation about an axe. I just - - I would have to see the document to refresh my memory, if it’s in there.
Q. Are you familiar, Ranger Ryan, with a case that Henry Lucas allegedly was involved in in Louisiana on the 26th of May of ’83?
A. Is that the one St. Tammany Parish or something like that?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. With McGeehee or something.
Q. That’s correct.
A. Yes, sir, I’m familiar with it. Not the
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Facts of the case. I just - - to know, you know I recollect some questions and inquiries that were made to me.
Q. Did you ever give them any information on Henry Lucas being in Montaque County, Texas, on May 26th, ’83?
A. Depending on what time I was contacted by them and what stages of our investigation - - My records probably reflected up until Henry left my area and left the point of where I had anything to do with him. I’m sure that my records reflected that he was probably - - From the time that I know that came back and we put him in jail the first time until the time he went to jail the second time, my records probably reflect that he was in and out of the Stoneburg area during that period of time.
Q. I want to show you the last page of an 18-page document called the Daily Log Activities of Henry Lee Lucas and Ottis Elwood Toole. Can you identify that as being the daily log of Henry Lucas prepared by the DPS Lucas task force?
A. Yes, sir, that’s what I would identify it as. It was one of the many logs. They were changing them, I think, pretty regular.
Q. Would you please read the entry by June 4th
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
of ’83?
6-4 of ’83?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. “Lucas left Stoneburg, Texas.”
Q. All right. When I was asking you, Detective - - I mean, Ranger, about what the detectives from California were asking you about, what sources did you have to tell them where henry Lucas was when they would inquire from - - We made reference to a seven-page document.
Did you have any other sources, source materials to refer to Henry Lucas’ whereabouts when they were present in Montaque County, Texas, or when they would talk to - -
Probably all the - - Okay. During that period of time I would probably had a couple, one that I considered, unreliable. I kept dual system notes, one on what henry told me and one on what I know for a fact that someone else - - information by other methods other than Henry. That’s the one I felt more comfortable with.
Q. And where - -
A. If your referring - -
Q. Where are those notes that you would keep from other sources other than Henry?
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
You-all had them all these months .One of them would be a handwritten deal, travels according to Lucas, travels according - - by another method, which indicates some other things.
Back to your question on this, I don’t know what date you’re talking about there. If that’s the one I’m thinking about, was it - -
Q. They made an inquiry from you in August of ’83 and the record reflected that you showed them some notes in a seven-page document.
A. Okay. That would be this one here.
Q. So my question to you is: What else would you have used in August of ’83 to determine henry Lucas’ whereabouts besides that seven-page document you and I looked at up there at the stand?
A. What I had at my disposal at that time would be here somewhere and you probably have got a copy of it. So it would be things like the date he got his driver’s license. Of course, the dates he was in jail, we had at our disposal.
And then past that, we had limited time, limited funds, limited manpower to really check anything, but there were some things probably that we copied out of his billfold like the date he donated blood in Houston and things like that. We used that.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Q. Henry took a lie detector test in March of ’83, didn’t he?
A. That sounds about right. I’m not sure exactly. He took two or three.
Q. You-all asked him to come in and take a lie detector test on his involvement in the Kate and Becky case, didn’t you?
A. Yes, sir. The first day that he came back the first time in ’82 he took one, and then he took another one later on. March sounds about right.
Q. Your diary didn’t reflect anything about that lie detector test. Why wouldn’t that be in your diary?
A. Because I was working some other case. I think probably Sheriff Conway took him himself.
Q. Took him to Dallas to be tested?
A. I don’t know. March may have been the time he took him to Forth Worth. I don’t know.
Q. Do you have any other source of information on any informal surveillance you or anyone else was conducting on Henry Lee Lucas in the spring of ’83 up to June of ’83?
A. No, sir. All I had was - - The days that I talked to henry I put down, because that’s the day I
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Saw him with my own eyes. The days when he got his driver’s license, got his car inspected, got his license plates, some of the days that the Moore’s could associate to a particular incident, like the day that the car was registered, she saw, she handed Henry his license plates that day, that sort of thing. The other days, the Moores couldn’t really focus in on real good. But on something that they could associate it to that they were sure of, we used a date like that.
Does that answer your question?
Q. Are there any - -Did you have any other source for his whereabouts or any - - for his informal surveillance other than your diary there?
A. You know, you keep using the word source.
Q. Documents, notes?
A. It could be many things. Something comes in the mail that has a date, somebody told me he was so and so, something I could feel comfortable with and rely on, I just added that to it. The sources could be many and could be varied.
Q. Added that to what?
A. To the list I was making.
Q. Of henry’s whereabouts according to other persons?
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Yes.
Q. Okay.
A. There should be one of these notes saying personal, Henry’s travels or something like that, travels, weapons and vehicles. I can probably explain to you if you will look at it.
And there again I may not recall my sources, but I would recall that this was something that I felt comfortable with in saying he was at this location on this day. One of them was a letter that Becky wrote. You know, things like that.
Q. If you can just show me that document, we will be able to go on.
A. Now, these documents were forwarded to me later. That’s not as a result of my work product. And it looks like these are out of order.
Okay. Now, this is what I started, you know, like September the 1st, 1959, released from the pen. This will be things - -
Q. That you could confirm?
A. - - that I felt comfortable with, not - - I even hesitate to use the word confirmed on some of them. Just some that I felt comfortable with.
And then these other ones, the one someone has typed - -
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Q. Yes.
A. Now, this is - - You need something from that? That’s really not a time and travel. That was a map so me and Henry could get our minds together on where he was going when he was out the last time.
Q. Well - -
A. Okay.
Q. Where would May of ’83 be?
A. This got changed around when they copied it, I think.
The only thing I have that was available to me at the time, that I felt comfortable with at the time, two or three May of ’83 placed him in Stoneburg. March 23rd was a polygraph test, but that’s the one Conway took him to, and things like May the 20th was a driver’s license receipt. May the 17th, the Moores remembered him witnessing an accident at 9:30 at night, so I felt comfortable with that date.
From May the 20th until April the 18th - - I don’t even about that one - - until June the 4th - -
Q. That’s - -
A. There is a gap there that I - - like I testified earlier, my personal opinion at the time with the information provided, I felt like he was
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
around Stoneburg.
Q. Let me ask you this another way. You thoroughly investigated Lucas’ whereabouts in May and June of ’83, didn’t you?
A. Did not. I did with the time allotted to me, with the information that was available to me, I put down notes. But there is no way I could have.
Q. Since Henry’s arrest on June 11th of ’83, you have not seen any document as far as a receipt or anything of that nature that would replace Henry Lucas anywhere but in Montaque Count, Texas, on May 27th 1983. Is that correct?
A. I have nothing to place him anywhere during that period of time. Is that the question?
Q. Except - - No. You have nothing to place him anywhere but in Montaque County, Texas, during that period of time. Is that correct?
A. On May 27th?
Q. On that date and period of time on either side of it.
A. Okay. I feel comfortable with this statement and I’ll stay with it. May the 20th, he was in Stoneburg. June the 4th, I feel like he was in Stoneburg. The period of time in between that, I did not work him during that period of time. I
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Wasn’t there during that period of time.
It was my opinion at the time that he was in the area. Does that - -
Q. From May 20th to June 4th?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Since that time have you seen no document placing him anywhere else, have you?
A. No, sir.
MR. PONTON: We pass the witness, Your Honor.
BY MR. MOODY:
Q. Now, according to your records you did not personally see Henry Lucas any time between what dates and what dates in May and June of ’83?
A. Probably around March the 4th - - Personally see?
Q. Yeah.
A. I’m going to say it was early March, April, May probably, - - Okay. The only possibility I have in May - - And I don’t recall. I’m just saying this is a possibility - - was the date that I had the star by which was May the 23rd. But that still - - I don’t know if I saw him that day.
Q. Okay.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
From then it goes way on back. We were busy and I get to work the case exclusively.
Q. Now, were you aware that Henry Lucas was preparing to get ready to go on a trip and leave Stoneburg?
A. Well, during that period of time, Henry himself kept saying that, “After encampment, I’m going to go. If Becky don’t show up by the end of encampment, I’m going to go,” and this and that.
After the fact, I was aware of him getting a car. I did not know that he had been working on it, licensing it and stuff like that. After the fact, I did. You know, reviewing information available to me, I feel like he was preparing.
Q. And that encampment was, what, in the middle of May?
A. The first or the middle of May.
Q. The first or the middle of May?
A. Probably first or second week.
Q. He let you and Sheriff Conway know that as soon as that encampment meeting was over he was leaving?
A. Yes, sir, he had made that statement many times.
Q. Not just to you but to all kinds of people
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Around there?
I believe it was the general consensus.
Q. Okay. In fact, then, when you went back later and rechecked and found out he got his vehicle inspected on, what was that, May 12th?
A. I think that’s correct.
Q. And then he got his driver’s license. On what day was that, do you remember?
A. The 20th.
Q. The 20th?
A. And then he picked up the license plates on the 25th. Is that correct?
A. I believe that’s correct.
Q. And there was nothing to keep him in Stoneburg at all after that, was there?
A. Nothing that - - You know, if he was preparing for a trip and all the preparation was laid, I’d say that was a true statement.
Q. And from May 26th through June 11th, you cannot state whether or not Henry Lucas was in or out of Stoneburg?
A. Until June what?
Q. June 10th.
A. Okay. June 10th is when he came back. Faye did advise us like on the 8th that he left the 4th.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Q. That was after Sheriff Conway met her by chance and - -
THE COURT: Let’s take a break.
(A recess was taken.)
Q. (BY MR. MOODY) The question I was on was from May 26th - - I’d asked that question.
Then you said that finally you-all had gotten information from Faye, but that it was on June 8th of 1983 and what was that based on?
June the 8th is when the sheriff had me meet him in Bowie. I think he had been to Wichita on the drugstore deals. I met him quickly for coffee and he showed me a statement that Faye had written out dated the 8th saying that Henry had left on the 4th and then he called back for some money.
Q. Okay.
A. I don’t recall - - The other part of your question is for some reason I get the, you know, it’s my opinion if I had to say one way or another right now that she didn’t call Conway or anything like that. Conway ran across her in Bowie somewhere and probably asked about Henry.
Is that what your asking about?
Q. Yeah. And at least like the agreement you were supposed to have, as soon as he leaves, she
Page 957
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Certainly had not do that or they had not done that; obviously June 3rd and June 4th are at least four days apart?
Oh, yeah. They didn’t - - They later explained the reasoning behind some of that, but, no, they didn’t timely notify us of him leaving even on that occasion.
Q. And they had no records, whatsoever to place Henry in Stoneburg the time period May 26th through June 4th, did they?
A. No, sir, they could never give us anything particular, and that wasn’t just this case. It was several cases where we went back and many times I asked Ruben to try to come up with some documentation.
Q. And you have repeatedly tried to get any documentation from them on this time frame of May 27th to June 4th on several occasions, have you not?
A. Yes, sir. I went back and said, “Have you thought of anything?” yes, sir.
Q. And they have never given you anything at all, any documentary proof whatsoever?
A. No, sir, he didn’t keep work records or anything.
Q. In fact, later you found out that sometimes they were mistaken about whether Henry was in or out
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Of Stoneburg, weren’t they?
I don’t know if it was later, prior to this case, but I know during the - - I think it was during the Montgomery County cases they had virtuely the same opinion: Henry was here for breakfast every day, and then Henry is the one that told me, no, they went to, I believe it was, Arkansas on a revival or an encampment or something. So I’d go back to them with Henry‘s information and they’d say, oh, yeah, that’s right, and they could recall being out of town on occasions.
Is that what your asking?
Q. Yes.
A. Yes.
Q. So you’ve even shown that their memories were faulty on whether or not Henry was in or out of town?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Not based on our case but based on other cases?
A. Based on other cases. And I don’t want to leave the impression that - - I think that they are honest in what they are saying.
Q. Yeah. I’m not trying to attack their honesty, just maybe - -
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Their memory?
Q. Yes, their memory.
A. Okay. I even have that problem, too.
Q. On that gun warrant that you got on Henry Lucas, one of the elements of that offense was that they be out - - that they not be within their residence, they would be outside of their residence with the weapon. Is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What was the basis for you-all’s opinion that he was not at his residence?
A. Okay. His residence was the apartment, according to Ruben and according to Faye and by common sense on the access the public has to the church area, and, of course, Ruben is the supervisor of it.
Q. Okay. And they were telling you that he had gone into the public areas with the weapon?
A. Well, when you leave Henry’s apartment, you walk across an open - - a driveway like thing and then you enter the church part of it. There is a sanctuary and then a cook - - what they call a cooking area, a cook shack or whatever that is open to everyone around there.
Q. And that issue of the legality of that
Page 960
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Arrest has been contested previously, has it not?
Yes, sir.
Q. In fact, in several of the other hearings?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. And it’s always been upheld by the other district judges to be a legal arrest?
A. Yes, sir, that’s my understanding.
Q. You’re absolutely certain that he never requested an attorney at any time in your presence?
A. No, sir, he did not with the exception of this Mr. - - I’m going to have to call him Rob. I can’t pronounce his last name, pointed out in the original confession.
Q. That was not a request from him?
A. No, he was just making a statement.
Q. And before taking the confession you asked him if he wanted a lawyer?
A. That’s correct.
Q. And that issue has also been previously litigated, has it not?
A. That’s correct.
Q. And those confessions have always been held to be voluntary, have they not?
MR. PONTON: I object to this witness giving any kind if legal conclusion on - -
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
MR. MOODY: No, I’m not saying - -
MR. PONTON: - - on whether those confessions were voluntary confessions or not.
THE COURT: Well, I don’t think he is giving his legal conclusion. The question is have they been upheld, and either they have or they have not. That’s not a legal conclusion.
Q. (BY MR. MOODY) Did the judges uphold them or not?
A. It’s my opinion that they did.
Q. None of those were ever suppressed?
A. No, sir, not that I was aware of.
MR. MOODY: No further questions.
BY MR. PONTON:
Q. On that gun charge, Ranger, you-all never followed up on that after Henry was charged with murder, did you?
A. No, sir.
Q. And where Henry Lucas allegedly had that gun was in the cook shack at the House of Prayer. Is that correct?
A. He left his apartment and walked to the cook shack with it.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Q. And the cook shack is where he gave it to Faye Moore. Is that correct?
A. That’s correct. Her name was Munnerly at the time.
Q. The secretary. And she subsequently married the preacher?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And that cook shack was where Henry Lucas ate all his meals there. Isn’t that correct?
A. I think the majority of them. Everyone sort of gathered up there for breakfast and some of the meals - -
Q. All of the people - -
A. - - and their coffee drinking.
Q. And although his living arrangement at the House of Prayer was unusual, that was really considered to be his kitchen, isn’t that correct, that’s where he would cook and eat?
A. Are you asking did he consider it his kitchen?
Q. Did Ruben and - -
A. - - or did I consider it his kitchen?
Q. Was it your opinion that that was his kitchen where he would cook and eat?
A. It’s my understanding that he drank coffee
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
And ate there on numerous times. That’s the best - - You know, that the most I feel comfortable with.
Q. And he had full access to that for whatever cooking or coffee drinking purposes he wanted to make of it. Is that correct?
A. It’s my understanding all visitors and residence of the church had access to it.
Q. Henry didn’t have a kitchen in his apartment, did he?
A. I don’t recall. I don’t think he - - Seemed like he had a stove around there. I don’t know if it was hooked up or not.
Q. I mean, he - -
A. No, I don’t think he - - If he did, it was electric because I know he didn’t have any gas there.
Q. For the benefit of the Court, where Henry was living as far as where his bed was, wasn’t that a converted chicken coop, in fact?
A. Well, the chicken coops were on either side of it. I think that’s probably where they stored the grain or, you know, it was more out of the - - it was more - - Henry had made an apartment out of it during his stay there.
Q. But when you say apartment, you have to use that term a little loosely, don’t you? In fact, it
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
was a converted chicken coop that whole long shed where Henry was?
Well, Henry done a better job than some of them around there. There were still other people living in worse places.
Q. But when you use the term apartment, did he have indoor plumbing in there?
A. Yeah.
Q. Did he have a kitchen with a stove and a refrigerator and an oven?
A. I’d have to look at some - - You know, I can - - for some reason I can picture an icebox, but I’d just have to say I can’t recall all the stuff.
Q. And it was just one room, wasn’t it?
A. Yes, sir, seems like it was around by the bathroom.
Q. Now, don’t you have a notation in your diary where Faye or Ruben called you on June 2nd of ’83 that Henry had left at night for a trial run?
A. I stuck that in there after talking to them about when he left, if he left any time prior to.
Q. When did you find that out? A. Oh, it was probably during the Montgomery County, trying to pinpoint him down in the Montgomery County cases, going back and interviewing him.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
That’s the way I recollect it.
MR. PONTON: May I approach the witness, Your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes, sir.
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) I want to refer you to page 153 of your deposition taken on July 11th and 12th of 1986 here in this jury room, and please read that question and answer that are at lines is 11 and 12 on page 153 that I have underlined there.
Read it out loud, please, sir.
Q. Okay. The question? You’re asking the question.
Q. Yes.
A. The question is: “Now, Conway was told by the Moores on June the 4th, 1983, that Henry left that day?
Q. Answer?
A. And the answer was: “Yes.”
Q. Okay. Do you recall now that Sheriff Conway was told by Faye and Ruben that Henry left June 2nd overnight?
A. No, sir. I don’t follow you. June the 2nd, the way I recall that it came up, it was after the fact. I have it done below my regular June the 2nd.
Was it in June the 2nd that I had it that he
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
left for - -
Q. Well, I asked for - -
A. - - or was it on something else? It wasn’t on my daily log that I put that he - -
Q. I asked you if Henry Lucas told Sheriff Conway on June 4th - - I’m sorry. Now I’m getting confused.
I asked you if Ruben Moore told Sheriff Conway on June 4th that Henry Lucas had left overnight on June 2nd.
Okay. And my answer was yes at the time.
Q. Yes, sir.
A. Okay. I probably misunderstood the question. They did tell him that he left June the 4th.
Q. Okay.
A. Okay. Now, I missed evidently on that date. What I’m basing that on is the copy of the statement that Faye gave the sheriff and the sheriff gave me.
Q. And when was that statement?
A. That statement was given and dated on the 8th and it alluded to the fact that Henry had left on the 4th.
Q. Okay.
A. I should have a copy of that here somewhere. Does that explain what you were asking?
Page 967
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Q. Yes. Now, I want to ask you a question here from page 286 of your deposition. And my question to you at that time was: “Well, now, I have a notation that in August of ’83 Henry Lucas told you” - - Phil Ryan - - “that Lucas had never used a cleaver axe,” and this is from an interview apparently that you had with Henry at that time.
Do you remember that question to you back at your deposition?
Okay. That I had a notation that in August of ’83 - - Do you remember what I was looking at when I - -
Q. I don’t have that same document in front of me. Is it not true that I asked you that back in July?
A. Yes, sir, and I was probably thinking of the one where he - - Yeah, yeah, we brought that out. It was the document that I was telling you awhile ago about.
Q. Okay.
A. That he only used a knife and a gun, you know. That would rule out a cleaver, axe, machete.
Q. And he never talked to you about killing anybody with an axe?
A. I don’t recall anything. And the only thing
Page 968
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
I have to base my memory on would be that one document.
Q. And Henry Lucas never told you - -
A. I don’t recall an axe or a cleaver.
Q. And Henry Lucas never told you that he had killed an old lady with an axe in El Paso, did he?
A. No, sir.
MR. PONTON: No further questions, Your Honor.
BY MR. MOODY:
Q. In regards to this trial that you mentioned, the information you got later from Faye Munnerly - -
A. Yes.
Q. - - Faye Moore, and do you recall if she remembered what day of the week henry would have left on?
A. Okay. The best I recollect about that, I was trying to pinpoint her down on when Henry could have left during some of these periods of time. She remembered that he left San - - that he was going to Dallas or somewhere like that on a trial run. She thought that it was the Thursday - - She was sure it was a Thursday night. She thought - - She wasn’t as
Page 969
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Sure of this as she was it was a Thursday night, but she thought it was the week prior to the time he left, the Thursday prior to the 4th he left.
Q. All right. But she talked about the fact, though, that it could have been the week even prior to that. Right?
A. Yeah, but she was leaning more to wards the second.
Q. She leaned more toward June 2nd and said it could have been May 26th?
A. Yes.
Q. Right?
A. Yes. And that’s when we tried to get her to come up with some documentation or something she could - - She was not able to.
Q. But just like everything else, they didn’t have any document?
A. That’s correct.
MR. MOODY: No further questions.
THE COURT: Sir?
MR. MOODY: No further questions.
MR. PONTON: One last one, just on a point Mr. Moody just made.
Page 970
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
BY MR. PONTON:
Q. You don’t have any document that reflects that Faye Moore or Faye Munnerly ever stated that Henry Lucas left Montaque County on any date other than June 2nd, do you?
A. No, not unless I explained it in a narrative of a report I may have made.
Q. Do you recall ever explaining that she’s ever said this Henry Lucas ever left on any day other than June 2nd for a trial run?
A. Do I have a document?
Q. Yes.
A. Like I explained to him, so that we don’t get these transcripts - - I want to be as honest as I can. My understanding of it from talking to her and I did this on probably two occasions - -
Q. Uh-huh.
A. - - trying to narrow her down on what day it was, she felt strong that it was a Thursday, okay?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. She didn’t feel as strong that it was the Thursday prior to leaving on the 4th, but she did leave the room for the possibility that it would have been the prior Thursday to that.
Page 971
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Q. But in her statement to you and Sheriff Conway that she signed on June 8th, she referred to him leaving on June 2nd, didn’t he?
A. No, I thought it was June the 4th. I didn’t know it included - -
Q. I’m referring to the trial run. Didn’t she say that he left for a trial run overnight on June 2nd?
A. She didn’t include that in her statement of June the 8th.
Q. Okay.
A. I think it was verbal?
Q. So once again my question to you is are you aware of any document anywhere that says that Faye Moore says that Henry Lucas left on that trial run any day other than June the 2nd?
A. No, sir, I’m not aware of any document.
MR. PONTON: No further questions, Your Honor.
MR. MOODY: No further questions, Your honor.
THE COURT: Ranger, I just have one. Do you recall the names of the judges or the attorneys that represented Henry when he had a hearing concerning that gun possession charge?
Yes, sir. Don Maxfield or Maxwell.
Page 972
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
THE COURT: Don - -
MR. PONTON: Maxfield.
Would be the attorney.
THE COURT: Where is he from?
He was - -
MR. PONTON: He’s in Dallas, Your honor. He was from Wichita Falls, I think.
THE COURT: Okay.
Judge Frank Douthitt.
THE COURT: Frank - -
MR. PONTON: D O U T H I T T.
THE COURT: Okay.
Paul Smith can give you phone numbers and addresses for him.
THE COURT: Where is he the Judge?
He is the 87th District Court. He lives in Henrietta. He has three counties, Henrietta, Montaque, Archer and Clay Counties.
THE COURT: Do you know whether or not any of those - -
It’s the 97th. I’m sorry.
THE COURT: Do you know if any of those cases are on appeal at this time?
I don’t think they are, but I don’t know.
THE COURT: So there were two cases, one of
Page 973
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Them, as I understood it, Henry received the - - a life imprisonment by a jury, the other he pled guilty and got 70 years.
75 years.
THE COURT: 75 years.
And I think one of the stipulations was that the gun charge was dismissed at the same time that the plea of guilty was entered in the murder.
THE COURT: Well, yeah, I understand that. But to your knowledge, was there ever a hearing as to whether or not there was probable cause to arrest him on the gun charge?
Yes, sir. I believe we had several suppression hearings in Montaque County.
THE COURT: Well, that’s what I’m getting at, because you testified to that.
Yes, sir.
THE COURT: I was just wondering if any of those - - if any of that was on appeal concerning the probable cause hearings, to your knowledge?
No, sir. To my knowledge, there is not - -
THE COURT: In either case?
No, sir.
MR. PONTON: Judge, to my knowledge, Henry has been convicted on ten noncapital cases, none of
Page 974
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Which are on appeal, all of which are final convictions. To my knowledge, the only conviction that he has that is on appeal is for capital murder which was tried in Tom Green County on a change of venue from Williamson County that is known as the orange socks case. That case is not a final conviction because the Court of Criminal Appeals has not issued an opinion yet in that case.
THE COURT: Do we have a transcript in any case other than that case?
MR. PONTON: We have a transcript of most of these cases, Your Honor.
MR. MOODY: They have got the trial transcripts. We went and got them for the - - as many of them as possible on the suppression hearings, guilty pleas and such. And, of course, we have the ones - - and I think Paul Smith brought another copy of them. I think the defense already has them for the Montaque County case, the Kate Rich murder.
Now, the one we don’t have, we don’t have a trial transcript from Denton yet. I don’t think - - Has that ever come in? I don’t think we have that one.
THE COURT: Which was the Denton one? Is that where he got life?
Page 975
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
MR. MOODY: Donton is Becky Powell.
THE COURT: Is that the life - -
MR. PONTON: Life to a jury, Your Honor.
MR. MOODY: And we had ordered the transcripts of that entire trial, because it was a jury trial - - other than the voir dire. We didn’t ask for final arguments, but we asked for all the trial testimony.
THE COURT: But that wouldn’t include the suppression hearing, would it?
MR. MOODY: No, we asked for that, too. We asked for the suppression hearing - - the suppression hearings and the other.
Now, the final transcript on the case out of Williamson County, the orange socks case, the problem with that, as I understand, was that the record had never been completed. It had been typed and it had been given to the Judge and he was preparing, I guess, for the objections to the record or something is my last understanding. But that is - -
MR. PONTON: I have a copy of that transcript.
THE COURT: Well, all I’m interested in is if you gentlemen receive any transcripts concerning these suppression hearings on the possession, I would
Page 976
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Like to just read that part. I don’t want to read the trial part. But if there is, I’d like to read those transcripts.
MR. PONTON: I may have a transcript, Your Honor, from the Denton case, also, and I will check tonight to see if I can pull those for Your honor.
THE COURT: I don’t want to - - I have got too much to read right now. I just want to read that one part.
MR. PONTON: That’s fine.
THE COURT: I don’t want to read the whole trial.
MR. PONTON: I understand, just regarding the suppression.
THE COURT: Can Officer Ryan go on about his business?
MR. PONTON: Yes, Your Honor.
MR. MOODY: Go back to Montaque or go back to - -
This is something that’s not mine. I - -
THE COURT: Officer, thank you very much. I understand you have been here before and they took a deposition, now you’re back and took another deposition today. We never have gotten to the suppression hearing concerning this case.
Page 977
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
MR. PONTON: At this time, Your Honor, I would like to ask that copies of his notes be entered into evidence as Defense Exhibit 14.
(Defendant’s exhibit marked, D-14)
THE COURT: It will be admitted.
You know, Mr. Ponton, if you-all want to take any more depositions, why don’t we adjourn the Court while you do it and that way I don’t have to listen to your deposition, but I’d kind of like to listen to your, you know, whatever evidence you have concerning suppression.
We are going to take a break here. How about this next witness? Now, I have got 4:20. How long is this going to take to get rid of him?
MR. MOODY: I have very few questions for Paul Smith. Almost none.
MR. PONTON: I have not much more on cross, I believe, Your Honor, so we might be able to finish up with him by 5:00.
THE COURT: We are going to take about a five-minute break. The Court Reporter needs a break.
(A recess was taken.)
THE COURT: Be seated, please. Now, let me explain to you I had about three crisis just happen a few minutes ago, so let’s get this over with.
Page 978
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
All right, sir, would you raise your right hand, please?
Thank you.
PAUL SMITH,
Having been duly sworn by the Court to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, was examined and testified as follows:
BY MR. MOODY:
Q. State your name, please?
A. Paul Smith.
Q. How are you employed, sir?
A. As an investigator for the 97th Judicial District Attorney’s office.
Q. Okay. What counties does that include?
A. Archer, Clay, and Montaque Counties.
Q. And your boss is the district attorney whose name is?
A. Jack McGaughy, yes, sir.
Q. Now, you were also involved in the Henry Lee Lucas case when it first broke in regards to the Kate Rich case. Is that correct?
A. Yes, sir, I was.
Q. You along with Texas Ranger Phil Ryan were - -
Page 979
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Did you-all have chances to interview Henry Lucas, talk to him about the Kate Rich case after his - - after he began confessing on June 15th, 1983?
Yes, sir. I don’t believe I conducted any interviews myself. I was present during some of the interviews what Ranger Ryan conducted.
Q. Now, did anyone from the district attorney’s office in El Paso or the police department in El Paso contact you regarding the Librada Apodaca case back in 1983, the time frame when Henry Lucas was in Montaque County and Clay County? That would have been, oh, what, the months of June, July and August, maybe in September.
A. No, sir, no one contacted me.
Q. All right. Did you know anything about the Librada Apodaca case or any facts about that case?
A. No, sir, I did not.
Q. Did you ever give him any of the information in that case?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did Ranger Ryan ever do that while he was in your presence?
A. No, sir, he did not.
Q. Basically it was a case you-all didn’t know anything about?
Page 980
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
That’s correct.
MR. MOODY: Pass the witness.
BY MR. PONTON:
Q. How long have you been employed by the district attorney’s office as an investigator up there?
A. Since October of 1981.
Q. When did you first hear about Henry Lucas in any way, shape or form?
A. Oh, about September the 18th or 19th of 1982.
Q. Wasn’t that because Henry Lucas had become the prime suspect in the disappearance of the Montaque County resident named Kate Rich?
A. I was told about Henry Lee Lucas by Sheriff W. F. Conway with reference to the Kate Rich disappearance, yes, sir.
Q. And didn’t Sheriff Conway tell you that he had information that Henry Lucas was possibly the last person to see her alive?
A. Yes, sir, he did.
Q. And that he considered Henry Lucas a prime suspect in her disappearance and possible death?
A. Yes, sir, he did.
Page 981
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Q. And didn’t you also about that time receive information from Texas Ranger Phil Ryan that Henry was also a suspect in the disappearance of a 15-year old girl named Becky or Frieda Powell?
A. At that particular time, we had not information about the disappearance of Becky Powell.
Q. You subsequently gained information about that that fall, though, did you not?
A. Yes, sir, we did.
Q. And Henry Lucas became the prime suspect in her disappearance and possible death. Is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And Henry Lucas was arrested in October of ’82 on the out-of-state parole revocation warrant. Do you recall that?
A. I believe it was a violation of probation warrant out of the state of Maryland, but I’m not sure where from.
Q. That’s right. That’s right. The - - All during the time from September of 1982 when Henry Lucas first became the suspect in Kate Rich’s death until June 11th of ’83 when he was arrested on the gun charge, he remained the prime suspect in her death - - her disappearance and death, didn’t he?
Page 982
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Yes, sir.
Q. And was it not your opinion and the opinion of Sheriff Conway and Texas Ranger Phil Ryan that Henry Lucas had probably killed Kate Rich and you-all just needed to put together the proof to make the case?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. And it was important to all three of you, was it not, to keep track of Henry Lucas’ whereabouts, at least informally, during that period of time?
A. We never conducted any surveillance.
Q. Not any kind of formal surveillance, but informally you-all took certain steps to try to keep track of Henry Lucas’ whereabouts, did you not?
A. I did not. What Ranger Ryan and sheriff Conway did, I’m not aware of.
Q. Isn’t it a fact, sir, that you have to drive by the House of Prayer every day from your residence to get to the Montaque courthouse?
A. I don’t drive by there every day. That is my normal route to work unless I have business in one of the other two counties or in one of the other cities in Montaque County.
Q. But on a regular working day when you’re going to go to work at the Montaque County courthouse,
Page 983
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
you would drive from your residence past the House of Prayer to get to the courthouse, would you not?
Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. When you would do that during the period of time after Henry Lee Lucas became a suspect, would you not at least informally glance over to the House of Prayer to see if you saw Henry or Ruben Moore or Henry’s vehicle there?
A. I recall several occasions that in driving by I saw Henry Lee Lucas out in the yard around the House of Prayer or around that area.
Q. And did you not become aware that Ruben Moore and Faye Moore had made an agreement with Sheriff Conway in May of 1983 that they would tell the sheriff if Henry left the House of Prayer?
A. I was not aware of that agreement, no, sir.
Q. Do you recall Henry Lucas purchasing a maroon ’73 Pontiac automobile?
A. I have no personal knowledge of it, but I am aware of it, yes, sir.
Q. No that you were there when he bought it, but there was not a period of time in the spring of ’83 when you become aware that that vehicle was at the House of Prayer and maybe Henry was working on it or whatever? Did you become aware that that car was
Page 984
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
there?
Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. It had become part of your knowledge of the case that that car belonged to Henry Lucas?
A. Yes, it did.
Q. Do you recall who you found that out from?
A. I believe it would have been either Sheriff Conway or Ranger Ryan.
Q. Was anybody else working on the case against Kate Rich or Becky Powell at that time other that the three of you-all?
A. several of Sheriff Conway’s deputies were involved in the investigation, yes, sir.
Q. Do you recall their names?
A. Jose Cordero Jesse Ramos. I believe Bill Woods was involved to some extent.
Q. And do you know if any of those three persons were ever asked to go see if Henry was still at the House of Prayer or see if he was still in Montaque County or anything of that nature?
A. No, sir, I do not.
Q. Do you recall when Sheriff Conway and Texas Ranger Ryan went to California in early May of 1983?
A. Yes, sir, I do.
Q. Do you recall that at the time they made
Page 985
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
that trip that Henry Lee Lucas, to your knowledge, was still in Montaque County, Texas?
To my knowledge, he was. I don’t recall seeing him during that period of time.
Q. Do you recall that Henry Lee Lucas remained - - to your knowledge remained in Montaque County, Texas, until June 4th of 1983?
A. To my knowledge, yes, sir, he did.
Q. And did you subsequently become aware that Faye Moore and Ruben Moore told Sheriff Conway that Henry left on June 4th?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Have you ever seen any document or even seen anything from your personal knowledge that would indicate that Henry Lucas ever left Montaque County prior to that time?
A. I have seen a statement made by Faye Moore in which she told of Henry leaving Stoneburg.
Q. Was that allegedly on an overnight type trip or just leaving at night and coming back in the morning type of trip?
A. I don’t know what kind of trip it was. The statement I think just refers to him leaving on June the 4th.
Q. And other than him leaving on June 4th, to
Page 986
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Your knowledge did Henry Lucas not to remain in Montaque County until that time?
I have no personal knowledge either way.
Q. And you have no personal knowledge that he ever left, however?
A. No, sir, I do not.
Q. And do you recall driving by the House of Prayer up until the time of June 4th.
A. I don’t recall specific dates and times. There may have been days that I didn’t drive by there during that period of time, but normally I would have.
THE COURT: You know,, let me interrupt this. What in the world does this have to do with Henry Lee Lucas’ confession?
This is wonderful stuff for a trial, if you want to ask it, but why do I have to hear it now? Let’s get to this confession, Mr. Ponton. We haven’t - - I haven’t heard one word concerning the confession taken here in El Paso.
Now, let’s get to it if you can get to it. What happened in Montaque County or something are questions that should be asked at the trial of this lawsuit.
MR. PONTON: Yes, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Now, if you want to depose the
Page 987
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Man, I have given you all the right to do that, but I’m not going to sit here while you depose witnesses. Now, we are going to have a suppression hearing.
MR. PONTON: Yes, Your Honor.
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) Were you ever aware that investigators from Southern New Mexica called Henry Lucas in July of ’83 to question him about El Paso area murders.
A. No, sir.
Q. Were you aware of any El Paso officers, El Paso Police Department officers calling to the Montaque County jail to interrogate Henry Lucas about El Paso are murders?
A. No, sir.
Q. You brought some documents with you here today pursuant to our subpoena duces tecum. Do you recall Henry Lucas confessing while he was an inmate in the Montaque County jail to killing a certain young female who was subsequently found to be alive?
A. Yes, sir, I do.
Q. And do you recall that that woman had been an inmate there at the Montaque County jail at the time Henry was? Is that correct?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. And Henry confessed to killing her, did he
Page 988
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
not?
He told Ranger Ryan and I believe myself and maybe Sheriff Conway that he had killed her, yes.
Q. And was her name, do you recall?
A. I believe her name was Brewer.
Q. And she was subsequently found alive, was she not?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And Henry Lucas’ confession to killing her was completely false?
A. Yes, sir, it would be.
Q. Were you aware of when Henry Lucas was arrested on June 11th, 1983?
A. I was not aware of that arrest until the following Monday.
Q. Were you aware of the fact that Henry Lucas confessed to killing Kate Rich and Frieda Powell on June 15th of 1983?
A. Yes, sir, I was. I was made aware by telephone that night.
Q. Were you made aware of any requests by Henry Lucas to have an attorney at any time prior to that confession in June 15th, 1983?
A. No, sir.
Q. Were you aware of any efforts made by you or
Page 989
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
your office, the district attorney’s office up there to provide Henry Lucas with a lawyer prior to that confession?
No, sir, we did not.
Q. Did Henry Lucas to your knowledge have a lawyer appointed or retained on June 15th, 1983?
A. No, sir, he did not.
Q. Did you observe Henry Lucas at any in jail between June 11th and June 15th of 1983?
A. No, sir, I did not.
Q. Were you present when Henry Lucas was interrogated on any of his murders he was involved in after June 15th?
A. Yes, sir. I was present several times when Ranger Ryan interviewed him.
Q. Did you ever interview Henry Lucas yourself?
A. I interviewed him on one occasion while he was in jail in 1982 reference to Kate Rich, but after he was arrested on June the 11th, no, sir, I did not.
Q. Did you ever hear Henry Lucas being asked any questions about any El Paso area murders?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did you ever hear Henry Lucas make any statements about ever being in El Paso?
A. I recall several occasions where he talked
Page 990
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
About traveling over the United States, and he did mention traveling through or around El Paso several times.
Q. Did you ever hear him mention him killing anyone in El Paso?
A. No, sir, I don’t believe I did.
Q. Did you ever hear him mention killing an old lady with an axe in El Paso?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did you ever hear him mentioning that he had ever killed anyone with an axe at any time during any of the interviews you listened to?
A. No, sir.
Q. When did you first start listening to interviews with Henry Lucas? Would it have been right after his confession to Kate and Becky?
A. Yes, sir .It would have been within two of three days of that time, yes, sir.
Q. And you were aware that he was charged with here with committing a murder that occurred on May 27th of ’83?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Which would have been about two and a half weeks prior to his confession to Kate and Becky. Is that correct?
Page 991
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. And at that time when he first began to confess, you never heard him mention killing anyone in El Paso or killing an old lady in El Paso or killing anyone with an axe?
A. No, sir, I do not.
Q. Henry Lucas required medical treatment shortly after he began confessing, did he not?
A. The day that Henry showed us the remains of Becky Powell - - or I should say the day he showed Ranger Ryan and some Denton officials the remains of Becky Powell, I had gone to Dallas and returned to Denton late that afternoon. And Henry was in a sheriff’s car in the parking lot of the Denton Police Department and he was complaining to Sheriff Conway of having headaches or something and bot being able to sleep.
Sheriff Conway directed his deputies to take him by the emergency room in Bowie, Texas, before they took him back to the Montaque County jail.
Q. And do you know what happened at the Bowie clinic?
A. He was seen there by a doctor and did have some medication prescribed for him.
Q. Do you know what kind of medication?
Page 992
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
I would have to look at the jail reports to recall that.
Q. Was it not something for nerves?
A. I believe it was considered to be a sedative, yes.
Q. Did your involvement with Henry Lucas continue up until about the end of the summer of 1983?
A. Until September the 30th of 1983 when he entered a guilty plea in Clay County, Texas.
Q. And was that the murder if Kate Rich?
A. Yes, sir, it was.
Q. And did you not stay in pretty close contact with Henry Lucas up until that time?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. At any time to that - - until the time you were involved with him ended, did he ever tell you that he had killed an old lady with an axe in El Paso?
A. No, sir, he never told me that.
Q. Did you ever hear him tell that to anybody else?
A. No, sir.
MR. PONTON: Pass the witness, Your Honor.
Page 993
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
BY MR. MOODY:
Q. Did Henry Lee Lucas ever request a lawyer in your presence?
A. No, sir, he did not.
Q. What, was any statements he would give you about lawyers, whether he liked them, didn’t like them, wanted one, didn’t want one?
A. I recall several occasions where he stated he did not like lawyers and did not want a lawyer.
MR. MOODY: No further questions.
MR. PONTON: No further questions, Your Honor.
THE COURT: May this gentleman be excused?
MR. MOODY: Yes, Your Honor, as far as the state is concerned.
MR. PONTON: Yes, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Thank you. You may go back to whatever it is, east Texas or - - That’s not even east Texas is it?
Just the beginning of east Texas.
(An evening recess was taken.)
THE STATE OF TEXAS )
)
VS. ) CAUSE NO. 43314-120
)
HENRY LEE LUCAS )
heard on
SEPTEMBER 16, 1986
PROPERTY OF ROD PONTON
ATTORNEY AT LAW
COPY 2
Page 995
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
For the State WILLIAM MOODY
First Assistant District Attorney
City-county Building
El Paso, TX 79901
RICHARD JEWKES
Assistant District Attorney
City-county Building
El Paso, TX 79901
CAROL PENNOCK
Assistant District Attorney
City-county Building
El Paso, TX 79901
For the Defendant: ROD PONTON
Attorney at Law
Suite 505
Caples Building
El Paso, TX 79901
Doris Sipes
Attorney at Law
1011 North Mesa
El Paso, TX 79901
Page 996
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
CHRONOLIGICAL INDEX
WITNESSES PAGE
EDWARD URIBE
Direct Examination by Mr. Moody 1001
Cross-Examination by Ms. Sipes 1027
Redirect Examination by Mr. Moody 1068
Recross-Examination by Ms. Sipes 1071
JIMMY APODACA
Direct Examination by Mr. Moody 1090
Cross-Examination by Ms. Sipes 1128
Page 997
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
WITNESSES PAGE
JIMMY APODACA
Direct Examination by Mr. Moody 1090
Cross-Examination by Ms. Sipes 1128
EDWARD URIBE
Direct Examination by Mr. Moody 1001
Cross-Examination by Ms. Sipes 1027
Redirect Examination by Mr. Moody 1067
Recross-Examination by Ms. Sipes 1071
Page 998
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
EXHIBITS DESCRIPTION MARKED IDENTIFIED OFFERED REC’D
S-8 Photo 1010 1010 1069 1069
S-9 Photo 1013 1013 1069 1069
S-10 Photo 1014 1014 1069 1069
S-11 Photo 1019 1019 1069 1069
S-12 Photo 1019 1020 1069 1069
S-13 Photo 1069 1069 1069 1069
Page 999
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
THE STATE OF TEXAS )
)
VS. ) CAUSE NO. 43314-120
)
HENRY LEE LUCAS )
BE IT REMEMEBERED that on the 16th day of September, 1986, beginning at 9:10 a.m., came on to be heard the continuation of pretrial motions in the above styled and numbered cause, before the HONORABLE BRUNSON MOORE, Judge Presiding in and for the 120th Judicial District Court, and that the same was reported by Meryl Wersinger, Certified Shorthand Reported and Notary Public in and for County Court at Law Number Four, El Paso County, Texas, and that the following proceedings were had as follows, to-wit:
Page 1000
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Editor's note: this is the official transcript and it runs verbatim, as the archive's rule for court records requires; nothing has been summarised or cut. Clayton Smith and Phil Ryan were Texas Rangers attached to the Lucas Task Force at Georgetown, the operation through which most of the six hundred confessions were taken, and this is their account of how it worked. This archive records Henry Lee Lucas with eleven convictions, around three of them regarded as credible, against some six hundred confessions; the questioning in these pages is part of the mechanism by which that gap opened. It belongs to the El Paso County case and the 120th Judicial District, not to the Clay County trial already published as TRANSCRIPTS FROM THE TRIAL OF HENRY LEE LUCAS. Nothing said under oath in a transcript is a finding of fact, and Lucas in particular said a great many things that were not true.