By Christi Punteney
The El Paso County hearing concludes as transcribed from the official record: the testimony of Larry LaGrow, McLennan County District Attorney Vic Feazell, the further testimony of Clemmie Schroeder, Dr Steven D. Benold and Beverly Degrow. It runs verbatim. Pages 3302 to 3654.
THE COURT: May this lady be excused? MS. SIPES: For this hearing, but not for the trial, Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. Thank you.
Thank you, Ms. Sandlin. You can go on about your duties, your job, whatever.
Be back at 1:30.
(A lunch recess was taken.)
THE COURT: Okay. Mr. Ponton?
Sir, would you raise your right hand?
LARRY LaGROW
Having been first duly sworn by the Court to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, was examined and testified as follows:
BY MR. PONTON:
Q. What is your name, sir?
A. Larry LaGrow.
Q. How are you employed? A. I am vice-president/cashier of MBank Franklin.
Q. Were you subpoenaed by Ms. Sipes and myself to bring certain documents to court with you today? A. Yes, I was.
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Q. And in doing that, let me ask you if you are the custodian of records at the MBank? A. I am.
Q. And in response to our subpoena, did you look through the records - -
MR. PONTON: May I approach the witness, Your Honor? THE COURT: Yeah.
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) - - the checking account of Betty Sandlin, account number 320120? Tell me what account that is.
A. It’s account number 320120.
Q. Okay. And did you look in that account for the checking account - - the checking records for May and June of 1983?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And did you find a copy of a check that was made out on June 27th, 1983, in blank or to cash? A. I’m not sure it’s June 27th. It’s June 20- something, ’83. Yes I did.
Q. And the second digit is difficult to read? A. Could be a 5 or a 7.
Q. Okay.
A. Maybe even a 3.
Q. What is the amount of that check?
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$15.
Q. And the check number? A. Check number is 304.
Q. Okay. And on the back of the copy of the check the - - And I’m referring to Defendant’s Exhibit 47 that has already been admitted into evidence here, on the back of that check does it have an endorsement? A. Yes, it does.
Q. And who was it endorsed by? A. Jord-Inns of America.
Q. Okay. Now, to your knowledge, is that a true and correct copy of records as they are kept by you as custodian of records at MBank?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you also search through those records to see whether or not any other $15 checks in blank were made by Betty Sandlin in May or June of 1983? A. Yes, I did.
Q. And did you find any such checks? A. I found some other $15 checks, but none that fit the description that we are looking for that being one that would have been cashed at Jord-Inns - -
Q. Truck stop? A. - - truck stop, Jord-Inns where she was employed.
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Q. And at the time that those checks are microfilmed by your bank, are the original checks microfilmed by your bank? A. Yes.
Q. And as - -To your knowledge, is that a true and correct copy, microfilmed copy of the original check as it went through your bank? A. Yes, it is.
MR. PONTON: We pass the witness.
One other - - Your Honor, if I could approach the witness? THE COURT: Go right ahead.
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) And did you bring certain records with you here today? A. Yes, I did.
Q. And were these records the checking account statements for Betty Sandlin for that period of time, May, June and July of ’83?
A. Yes.
Q. As well as another copy of Defendant’s Exhibit 47, which is the check in question?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And these are true and correct copies kept by you as custodian of records at the bank? A. That is correct.
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(Defendant’s marked, D-57.)
MR. PONTON: I’ll refer to this file of these documents, Your Honor, as Defendant’s Exhibit 57, and at this time I would tender them to the state and then move for their introduction into evidence.
MS. PENNOCK: State has no objection.
THE COURT: Be admitted.
MR. PONTON: We have no further questions, Your Honor.
MS. PENNOCK: The state has no questions of this witness.
THE COIURT: May this gentleman go about his business? MR. PONTON: He may, Your Honor, subject to recall.
THE COURT: Call your next witness.
MR. PONTON: Your Honor, with the - -
MS. PENNOCK: Excuse me, Your Honor, but I believe we have no less than two witnesses waiting to be cross-examined.
THE COURT: That’s right. I said call them.
MS. PENNOCK: We would like to continue with our cross-examination of Clemmie Schroeder.
THE COURT: All right. Let’s call them.
MS. SIPES: Your Honor, with the Court’s
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Permission, this has been a long motion. We have had witnesses come in from out of town, witnesses who are professionally involved at the present time.
Mr. Lucas is waiting to be cross-examined by the state. He is incarcerated in the El Paso County jail. Clemmie Schroeder is unemployed except for piano lessons. We have a man that has been subpoenaed from out of town, Mr. Vic Feazell, who is the district attorney actively participating in the trial of a capital murder case in Waco, Texas, tomorrow morning. We would expect him to be brief.
And we realize that in turn we, too, will be asked to take witnesses out of order when the state starts calling its witnesses from different jurisdictions with the different problems that will arise, and we would ask for the cooperation and patience of the state and would ask the Court to allow us to put Mr. Feazell on out of order at this time.
THE COURT: Can he - -
MR. JEWKES: Your Honor, we would ask to be able to cross-examine Clemmie Schroeder. We have reason to believe that some of her testimony may possibly be used in the cross-examination of Mr. Feazell. If Mr. Feazell is allowed to get on the
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Stand out of order, then we lose the opportunity to cross-examine Clemmie Schroeder and develop his cross-examination, so once again we would reurge the Court to allow us to cross-examine Clemmie Schroeder.
THE COURT: Well, let’s examine Ms. Schroeder and then we will go right into Mr. Feazell.
MR. JEWKES: Thank you, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Call in Ms. Schroeder. I don’t - -
MS. SIPES: Your Honor, Mr. Feazell has reservations on the 6:00 o’clock flight and we would ask to have enough - -
THE COURT: Well, let me suggest this to you. I’m going to do as much as I can, Ms. Sipes. You know, I’m of the opinion that a lot of these witnesses shouldn’t even be here. I don’t know why they are here.
But I’m telling you, you know, you-all are wearing me out. I don’t understand it. I don’t understand why we need witnesses. We ought to be talking about the confession.
I don’t know what Mr. Feazell knows about the confession taken here in El Paso, but that’s what I’m interested in. And really, to be honest with you, that’s the only thing I’m interested in. Go ahead and cross-examine this young lady.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
MR. JEWKES: Thank you, Your Honor.
BY MR. JEWKES:
Q. Ms. Schroeder? A. Yes.
Q. Ms. Schroeder, you testified yesterday that you first met Henry Lucas in December of 1984 and that would have been in Georgetown jail. Is that correct? A. I - -
Q., The Williamson County jail? A. Right. But I’m trying to think if it was the Christmas Eve of ’83 or ’84. I wrote it down, but I’m not sure. Did you say ’84? A. Let me double-check. It was my understanding that it was - - I’m sorry. I stand corrected. December of 1983.
A. Yes.
Q. Do you have any idea how long Mr. Lucas had been in confinement there in Georgetown prior to your meeting with him? A. I know he came to Georgetown during the summer and I didn’t see him because I was in New York. And then he left, I think, back to Montaque and then
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they brought him back in the fall sometime.
Q. So by our calculations, Mr. Lucas had been in Georgetown in custody for a period of, let’s say, five to six months prior to your meeting him?
A. No.
Q. No?
A. I don’t think so, no. I think perhaps maybe two months.
Q. All right.
I’m not sure. Okay, see he was there, I think, in August, and he was gone. And I think he came back in November.
Q. And by the time you had had that first meeting with Mr. Lucas in December of 1983, the task force was already in operation. Is that not correct? A. No, sir.
Q. It was not? A. No.
Q. Do you happen to know when the task force was first formulated? A. Let me see. December, January, I would say the end of January of February of ’84. Like perhaps six weeks after I met him.
Q. Is it your understanding that Henry Lucas had already confessed to certain offenses within the
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state of Texas prior to your meeting him? A. It was known that he had confesses to killing about 150 people, mainly women.
Q. Now, when we talk about confessions, let’s try to distinguish that word. And when I ask you about confessions, I’m talking about statements, whether they be videotaped, audiotaped or written by Henry Lucas as opposed to a blanket admission to someone, “I have killed 100 people, I have killed 20 people or I have killed no people whatsoever.” All right? A. All right.
Q. In that particular regard - -
A. Yes.
Q. - - would you have any idea how many confessions this defendant had given prior to your meeting him? A. Around 70 in Montaque County. And I have no idea, but more to Sheriff Boutwell. And Sheriff Boutwell was the one that told me 150.
Q. 115? A. About 150. Mainly - - They were mainly women.
Q. Would that be 1-1-5?
A. 1-5-0. Q. Oh, 150?
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150.
Q. All right.
A. Okay.
Q. At the time of your first meeting with Henry Lucas? A. Sheriff Boutwell wasn’t there when I first met him, but when I was in the jail at that time, yes, in December of ’83.
Q. So apparently up until that time, Henry Lucas was being cooperative at least with Texas law enforcement. Would you agree with that? A. Yes. With Sheriff Boutwell and - - Yes, with Sheriff Boutwell. No rangers at that time I know of. No task force yet.
Q. And he had talked undoubtedly with Phil Ryan prior to your meeting him? A. Yes.
Q. So at least one ranger that we know of prior to the formulation - -
A. Right.
Q. - - of the task force? A. Yes.
Q. I believe you told us when you first met Mr. Lucas his call was barren. Is that right? A. He had no books, no television. It was a
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
very gloomy no-window cell, yes.
Q. Did he have bathroom facilities? A. Yes.
Q. Did he have a bed? A. Yes.
Q. Was he fed regularly? A. I don’t know.
Q. Do you know whether or not he was allowed to exercise? A. No, he wasn’t.
Q. In other words, he was kept in that jail the whole time? A. As far as I know.
Q. I mean, in that cell? A. As far as I know.
Q. What about the other prisoners, were they allowed to exercise? A. Yes.
Q. In other words, at that point in time they were given more? A. Telephone calls, and they were given more privileges than Henry, yes.
Q. And you were not allowed to minister to Henry Lucas? A. No.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
Q. But you were allowed to minister to other prisoners.
A. Yes.
Q. Was it ever explained to you by anyone as to why you were not allowed to minister to Henry Lucas? A. It was orders by the sheriff.
Q. Did you ever to talk to the sheriff about it? A. No.
Q. Did you ever ask him why you weren’t allowed to minister to him? A. No.
Q. Were you ever told that you couldn’t get near him? A. I just assume if you don’t minister to him, you won’t be near him. I didn’t ask that.
Q. Did Sheriff Boutwell ever explain to you that there was a security problem? A. No.
Q. Not at that time? A. No.
Q. Did he ever explain to you later that there was a security problem? A. The only time he ever spoke about security was that he would be locking me in the catwalk and he couldn’t guarantee what Henry would do because he had
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killed so many women and I would be on my own.
Q. So apparently or ostensibly at that point in time, Sheriff Boutwell might have been concerned for your welfare. Would you agree with that? A. No.
Q. No? A. No.
Q. Even though he said he was afraid to lock you in the catwalk? A. Oh, at that time, yes. But when I met Henry, I - - I didn’t know. I was in the jail ministry two years prior to that. I had never meet Sheriff Boutwell. I didn’t even know how he looked so - - I’m sorry. I thought you meant at Christmastime that he was concerned about my safety.
No, he was concerned about my safety when he asked me to be a minister to Henry Lucas.
Q. Did Henry Lucas ever indicate to you that he had asked Sheriff Boutwell to allow you to minister to him? A. Yes.
Q. And do you have reason to believe that that’s a fact? A. Yes. Because I know I wasn’t allowed to until Henry insisted on it.
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Q. After a point in time, Mr. Lucas started to develop certain material possessions. Is that correct? A. Yes.
Q. He had a color television set? A. Yes.
Q. He had access to cable service? A. Yes.
Q. He had certain foods? A. Yes.
Q. Certain clothes? A. Yes.
Q. I believe you testified yesterday he was allowed to paint in his cell? A. Yes.
Q. He had art supplies? A. Turpentine, yes.
Q. Writing supplies? A. Yes.
Q. Had books? A. Yes.
Q. Where did all these possessions come from?
A. Clothing came from Sheriff Boutwell.
Q. Let ne stop you. What type of clothing are we talking about?
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I’m talking about street clothes, shirts, jackets.
Q. Levis? A. Suits, ties, Levis.
Q. Where did Henry Lucas obtain the color television set? A. From me.
Q. You bought it? A. With Johnny Dobb’s money.
Q. Do you happen to recall approximately when you bought that color television set for Mr. Lucas? A. When he came back from the California trip? Q. What year would we be talking about? A. I can’t recall. I would have to really spend time sitting here thinking.
Q. How long had you known Henry Lucas when you bought him a color television set? A. I’m not sure.
Q. Did you not also buy all the rest of the prisoners in the Williamson County jail television sets? A. I bought them - - I bought seven black-and-white 12-inch, not color, black-and-white sets, yes.
Q. So at some point in time all prisoners in
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the Williamson County jail had access to a television set? A. No.
Q. No?
A. There are many there without televisions.
Q. Why didn’t those prisoners - -
A. I don’t have enough money to buy it. The other prisoners can have televisions if their family will bring it in. The jail does not furnish any television for prisoners in the Williamson County jail.
Q. At least with respect to the television set, then, Mr. Lucas had basically the same privileges as anyone else in that regard, right, because other prisoners had televisions provided by you? A. No.
Q. No? A. His is cable, his is color, his is much larger. That’s not the same as a small black-and-white ones.
Q. He got a special television set? A. He got a special television, right.
Q. From you? A. From me. Because the sheriff said if she would pay for it, he can have it.
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Q. That’s fair enough. Where did Mr. Lucas get the cable service? Did you provide that? A. Yes, I did.
Q. Did you pay for it? A. Yes, I did.
Q. How much did it cost you every month? A. I think $8.95. Right now it’s $11.95 if you have cable, but I think at that time it was like $8.95.
Q. Did you provide cable service to the other inmates?
A. No.
Q. Why did Henry Lucas get cable and no one else did? A. Because Henry asked the sheriff if he might have cable TV and he said, “Well, I don’t like for you to, but if Sister Clemmie will pay for it, yes, you may.” Q. The task force certainly didn’t provide Henry Lucas with a television set. Would you agree with that? A. Right.
Q. Nor did the task force provide Henry Lucas with cable service. Would you agree with that? A. Right.
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Q. The task force did provide him with certain items of clothing. You do agree with that? A. Sunglasses and caps, but I will not say clothing.
Q. I thought you told us that Sheriff Boutwell - -
A. Well, okay. I consider Sheriff Boutwell Sheriff Boutwell and the task force the rangers.
Q. Okay. So you make a distinction between Sheriff Boutwell and the task force? A. Well, I’m sorry. I don’t know. If you want me to put them together, I will, okay? Q. Whatever is easiest for you.
A. Okay. I just - - The rangers would provide like caps and sunglasses and things like that. Henry also received clothing from a book writer, Lee Betz, and he received clothing from like my mother some new shirts. I gave him a sweater at Christmas.
Q. That’s fine. With respect to these art supplies and these books, did you give items of this type of other prisoners? A. Other types besides what, other prisoners what did I give them?> Q. Let me back up. I’ll make it simpler. You bought Henry Lucas art supplies, did you not?
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Yes.
Q. And you taught him to paint? A. Yes.
Q. Did you teach other prisoners to paint? A. No.
Q. Did you buy art supplies for other prisoners within the Williamson County jail? A. No.
Q. Did you buy books for Henry Lucas? A. Yes.
Q. Did you buy books for other prisoners? A. Yes.
Q. I believe you testified that Henry Lucas was allowed access to certain types of special foods. Is that correct? A. Yes.
Q. During the time he was confined? A. Yes.
Q. You told us what they were and there is no need to go back into that.
A. Yes.
Q. And be repetitive.
A. Yes.
Q. But why did you choose to provide Mr. Lucas with special foods?
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Because of his stomach problem.
Q. In other words, you were concerned about his health? A. Right.
Q. And did you provide these types of special foods to the other inmates? A. I tried to when they were sick, but I was told I couldn’t bring food in to others/
Q. But Mr. Lucas got this special privilege? A. He wanted them and the sheriff gave it to him.
Q. I believe you told us sometimes he would go to the Pizza Hit and order pizza for him? A. Yes.
Q. Would you ever go down and buy hamburgers for him? A. No.
Q. Never? Would you ever buy malts for him? A. Yes.
Q. On one particular occasion, do you recall a meeting in Williamson County with a Japanese film crew?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you remember that? A. Yes.
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Q. Who organized that particular thing? Was it not Hugh Aynesworth? A. It was Hugh Aynesworth and the sheriff. I don’t know which one was in charge, but Hugh Aynesworth was a part of that, yes.
Q. Mr. Lucas was interviewed, if memory serves me correctly, over a - - roughly a two-day period by a Japanese film crew. Is that correct? A. No, sir. One day.
Q. One day? A. Started in the morning and they left about 7:00 in the evening.
Q. And prior to that, Mr. Aynesworth had taken that Japanese film crew to Denton, Texas, had he not? A. I don’t know.
Q. You never saw the film? A. Never.
Q. Did Mr. Aynesworth ever tell you that he had taken the crew to Denton, Texas? A. No.
Q. Did Mr. Aynesworth ever tell you that he had provided that film crew with information concerning the Frieda Becky Powell case? A. No.
Q. Was that case ever discussed in your
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presence by Henry Lucas, Hugh Aynesworth and that Japanese film crew? A. Yes, in the sheriff’s office.
Q. And at that time, Mr. Lucas admitted to the murder of Becky Powell, didn’t he? A. Yes, he did.
Q. Did he not also confess to the murder of his mother? A. I don’t recall that.
Q. And at that time, was it apparent to you that - - based on that - - based on what you heard that Hugh Aynesworth believed Henry Lucas was a serial killer? A. No, sir. I don’t know, because he kept saying, “Well, Henry, that isn’t how you told it before.” Because with the Japanese he was talking about that Ottis was there and others, and Hugh was making a comment, “That isn’t how it was,” or something. There was something there between Henry and Hugh that I - - and Hugh was not agreeing with what Henry was saying. I could just hear a conversation going on at a coffee break.
Q. Did you - -
A. And Sheriff Boutwell, also said, “Henry, I never heard this before, that Ottis and his friends were there with the murder of Becky.”
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Q. That was an allusion to Ottis helping to dispose of the body, was it not, and to cut the body up into pieces? A. I don’t remember if it was that or being part of the murder. I don’t know.
Every time Henry talked about Becky to the book writers it would be a different story about how she died. No stories are the same. You can check on the writers.
Q. Ms. Schroeder - - Pardon me. You testified yesterday at one point in time you were spending a great deal of time ministering to Henry Lucas.
A. Yes.
Q. And you told us it was approximately 35 hours per week? A. Yes.
Q. Obviously you didn’t have the time to spend that much tome with other prisoners? A. Right.
Q. Henry Lucas became a special inmate to you. Is that correct? A. Yes.
Q. How special?
A. A very close friend.
Q. Was there ever a romance between the two of
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you? A. I love Henry with a pure heart. There is no romance. I love him with a pure heart.
Q. Are we talking about a Christian heart? A. I’m talking about the love of the Lord, with the same love that the Lord loves him with.
Q. At one point in time, did you feel that you had saved Henry Lucas? A. No, I felt like Jesus Christ saved him and Jesus Christ has saved him.
Q. Did you ever feel like you had become his mentor, someone to guide him? A. No. The Holy Spirit does, guides him. That has just been attached to me and it’s that others see it. But I don’t see myself as guiding him but that he is guided by the Holy Spirit.
Q. I was curious about a comment that you made yesterday to the effect that you began to notice a mistrust on the part of Henry Lucas for certain members of the task force. Do you remember that statement? A. Uh-huh.
Q. And I didn’t write it down word-for-word, but I will try to summarize it for you.
To the best of my recollection, your
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testimony was that Henry Lucas had mistrust for Bob Prince and Jim Boutwell.
No, Bob Prince and Clayton Smith. Henry liked Sheriff Boutwell.
Q. And I believe you further testified that you wanted to keep the team together, and I know I’m correct about the use of the word team.
A. Yes, yes.
Q. Why did you want to do that? A. Because I felt like we were - - I was told so much by the rangers and the sheriff that, “We need to work together because Henry is doing a wonderful job and we need to keep Henry happy and realizing what a good job he was doing,” and it was like working as a team.
And Henry, remarks he would make I could tell he didn’t feel real close to the rangers. There was some mistrust and I never could understand it.
Q. Did Henry Lucas ever have any mistrust with you personally, towards you personally? A. No.
Q. Was he ever unhappy with you because of a particular book rights contract that you had helped to negotiate? A. The only time he would - - No. The only time
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I can remember him being unhappy was when I would put pressure on him for Nan Cuba and the psychologists - - Nan Cuba us a reporter - - and a psychologist to do a story on him. And Sheriff Boutwell wanted the story, and he didn’t want the story done.
And he said, “I just wish that you wouldn’t put this on me.” And there was no anger, but, I mean, I don’t recall where - - I don’t know what you’re talking about, a book contract.
Q. We will get back to that.
A. Okay.
Q. Ms. Schroeder, you also testified yesterday that oftentimes Henry Lucas would tell you that he didn’t kill anyone in a particular state but that the rangers wanted him to go to that state. So you recall saying that? A. Yes. Like California, he did not want to go and he said that if he went that he would be made to confess to killing two young children under a bridge and he didn’t want to go, that’s correct.
Q. Did Henry Lucas ever tell you that one of the reasons he didn’t want to leave is because of you, he didn’t like leaving you, he enjoyed your company. Did Mr. Lucas ever tell you that? A. I know that he liked my company. He never
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said that is the reason. He said that it is - - that there would be a horrible murder of two little girls that he would be made to confess to. He did not say anything, “It’s you that I don’t want to leave,” no, he never did.
Q. At one point in time, according to your testimony, you and Bob Prince has a confrontation. And I won’t call it an unpleasant confrontation, but let’s say where you directed certain questions to him concerning whether or not Henry Lucas was a serial killer.
A. Right.
Q. And you testified that Bob Prince explained to you some of the mentality behind a serial killer.
A. Right.
Q. Do you recall that? A. Right. And I accepted what he said.
Q. And I believe you testified that Bob Prince would tell you that - - or did tell you that serial killers sometimes repress things back - -
A. Yes.
Q. - - back in their subconscious? A. Yes.
Q. And did Bob Prince ever describe to you certain events that he witnessed on some of these
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trips to the various parts of Texas? A. No.
Q. Did he ever tell you that Henry Lucas would sometimes at the scene of a crime almost go into something similar to a trance? A. Clayton told me that.
Q. Would you please explain to the Court exactly what Clayton told you in that regard? And we are talking about Clayton Smith.
A. Okay. Clayton Smith said that they went - - I don’t recall the case - - to a field. And this was someone that drove a pickup truck and ran over a woman and killed her driving over this woman, and that Henry stood out in the field and it was like he was in a trance and he was looking over the field as if he was recalling what was happening.
And I said, “Well, did Henry kill that person?”
And Clayton said, “No, he did not,” that they could not clear the case. And this was somewhere close to where Clayton had relatives or where he grew up or something and he really was hoping they could, but they couldn’t prove that case.
And I asked Henry about it. And he said, “When I stood there in the field,” he said, “I could
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See in my mind a truck driving with red hair, a red beard, bearded face, driving, and this woman running.”
So I went and I told Clayton, and he wrote it down.
Q. Based on your testimony, apparently Henry Lucas was able to give certain specific details to that crime. Would you agree with that? A. They couldn’t clear it. I don’t know what details he gave. I mean, he told me the killer was someone with a red-bearded face.
Q. So Henry Lucas wouldn’t take that case. Correct? A. I do not know. Maybe Henry want to, but they couldn’t clear it. I don’t know. I just know Clayton said it wasn’t his and they didn’t clear it.
Q. So at the very least, the task force did not try to accredit that murder to Henry Lucas? A. Right.
Q. So that’s one case that they didn’t force him to take? A. No.
Q. Would you agree? A. No.
Q. You disagree or you agree with that? A. I agree with that. And do you that he
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Was in a trance looking at something that he didn’t do that made it look like he did because he was in a trance thinking so hard? Q. Ms. Schroeder, I wasn’t there.
I wasn’t either.
Q. I’m relying on witness - -
A. I wasn’t there.
Q. Let me ask you this. When you were talking about this power struggle between Jim Boutwell, the sheriff - -
A. Uh-huh.
Q. - - and Bob Prince - -
A. No.
Q. No? I misunderstood you. What kind of power struggle were you talking about? A. I was talking about the power struggle between who had the upper hand, Henry Lucas or Sheriff Boutwell.
Q. Was there any question in your mind who had the upper hand? A. Sometimes one had it, sometimes the other. If the sheriff had his way, he had it. When Henry had his way, I would assume Henry had it.
I mean, Sheriff Boutwell - - When Henry Lucas refused to take a trip until something happened, it
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Happened, well, then, I felt like Henry was - - had the upper hand. And then when Sheriff Boutwell threatened death row, I felt like Sheriff Boutwell had the upper hand. It depended on who had the - - who wanted what at the time the most.
Q. Ms. Schroeder, do you actually believe that Henry Lucas was the one to determine whether or not this female deputy by the name of Patty would become head jailer? Do you think Henry Lucas really had that much power? A. Yes.
Q. You really believe that? A. I think it made no difference to Sheriff Boutwell who the head jailer was. He wasn’t interested in anything but the task force.
Q. Therefore you think that Jim Boutwell was willing to let Henry Lucas take whatever false confessions Henry Lucas chose to take - - or make? A. Would you repeat that? Q. Yeah. I got the impression by listening to you yesterday that Jim Boutwell wasn’t really concerned about the welfare of Henry Lucas. Is that the way he felt? A. Oh, no. He was very concerned about Henry Lucas.
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Q. And do you think that Sheriff Jim Boutwell was willing to let Henry Lucas take cases that Henry Lucas didn’t do if Boutwell knew that he didn’t do them? A. I don’t know if Sheriff Boutwell knew or didn’t know. I mean, I can’t judge what Sheriff Boutwell knew or didn’t know.
But I know that like the Conroe, he did not accept Henry Lucas saying, “I was un another place.” He said, “He made me look like I had egg over my face but confessed,” - - I mean, “by pleading not guilty.”
Q. Did you not testify yesterday that at some point in time Henry Lucas was so much under the influence of the task force that he would take almost anything that was placed before him in the way of a case? A. I did not testify to that.
Q. Therefore, that is not the truth? A. I do not know how many he took. I mean, I’m not aware of how many in a day, how many he confessed to or anything.
I know like he would say he didn’t do something in San Antonio and he would come back and they said they were able to clear up six. So I know that day we would clear up six.
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Q. Henry Lucas was not a puppet, was he? A. He was a puppet.
Q. He was a puppet. He had no free will? A. I think most prisoners feel none of them have a free will. They are under restraint. I don’t think we can understand that unless if we lived behind bars.
Q. Based on what you saw and heard, do you have reason to believe that Henry Lucas confessed to a large majority of the cases that were presented to him? A. I do not know how many were presented to him.
Q. Ms. Schroeder, approximately two weeks ago we had testimony from two different rangers to the effect that probably over the period of time that the task force was in operation somewhere near 5,000 cases were presented to Henry Lucas.
A. I don’t know if that’s right or not.
Q. Would it surprise you if I told you that of 5,000 cases, Henry Lucas only - - less than 200 cases were ever accredited to him?
A. That’s not correct, because on the map they had little pins and they were 289. Every time one was cleared a pin would be put in the map. When he left for Waco, there were 289.
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Q. And are you aware that that count now stands at approximately 162 cases? A. No, I wasn’t. I’m not - - wasn’t.
Q. Therefore, by my calculations, if we are talking about less than 200 cases which may be properly considered as cleared cases, that means Henry Lucas took less than four percent of the cases ever presented to him.
A. And what does that mean? Q. Well, I’m asking you if he was deprived of all free will, if he was required to confess to everything that was ever placed in front of him, what do you think?
A. I have no opinion. I don’t know. I wasn’t there. I imagine - - I don’t know. I don’t know. I imagine sometimes you can feel more pressure on one day than other days. I don’t know.
I don’t know what made him confess to one confession and not confess to another. I do not know.
Maybe the investigators said he didn’t answer the things correctly and some - - another investigator would say, “Well, he answered enough correctly and so we can clear this one,” so he signed that one.
Maybe he only signed the ones that they told
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him he hit and missed the least on. I don’t know. I wasn’t there. I never have seen Henry sign a confession.
Q. So based on that, what you’re attempting to rationalize is based on speculation on your part and not personal knowledge. Correct? A. Right. I was not there.
Q. Another thing I wanted to ask you about was you didn’t give us the period of time in which this occurred, but you were talking about Sheriff Boutwell suggesting to you that maybe you ought to move back to the ranch for a few days.
A. Right. Months.
Q. Months? A. Right.
Q. I believe that was based on gossip? A. Yes.
Q. At that point in time, was your marriage in trouble? A. My husband had filed for a divorce and was going - - filed for divorce so he could marry Joanna after 28 years of marriage, yes.
Q. 28 years of marriage to you? A. Right.
Q. And two children?
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Three.
Q. Three children. Pardon me. Ms. Schroeder, why is it that you chose not to go back to the ranch? A. Because I have piano students and I make a living teaching piano. And my home is there. But I didn’t mind going to the ranch because my mother is there and I feel at home there, but I make a living in Georgetown and it’s hard to build up a class when you live 45 miles out on the sticks on a ranch away from people.
Q. Ms. Schroeder, I have to apologize for saying this, but do you think you might be able to get rid of that gum? A. Yes. I’m sorry. I don’t know where to put it and I hated to spit it out in front of you.
Q. Well, let me get you - - maybe we will get you - - No problem. I chew it myself from time to time.
So you didn’t go back to south Texas. You stayed in Georgetown. Correct? A. Uh-huh. Going there a lot of weekends like I always do.
Q. Did you ever talk to Henry Lucas about the fact that Jim Boutwell suggested maybe it might be better if you moved away for awhile?
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I told Sheriff Boutwell that I would move to the ranch and if he would please be with me when I would tell Henry, so we walked down to the task force and Henry and Bob and Clayton were there and so Henry knew. I didn’t tell him. The sheriff told him.
Q. Did Henry Lucas throw a fit? A. No, not a fit. He just very calmly said, “When she goes, I’m going on to death row. The game is over.” Q. Don’t you think maybe Jim Boutwell knew that when he suggested to you that you leave town? A. No, I think he knew that Henry dreaded death row more than anything and I think he was shocked when Henry himself said he was going to death row.
Q. And when we speak of death row, we are talking loosely of the case which has been commonly referred to as orange socks. Is that correct? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Ms. Schroeder, you testified that prior to going to Waco you believed that Henry Lucas was a serial killer. Do you recall saying that? A. No - - I knew that he - - I was - - I did not know. By serial killer, I don’t know what you mean exactly by numbers or something, but I knew he had signed confessions that were not his, that I really
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believed that he did not kill.
And yet I believed that lawmen could not do wrong so - - and I also felt like Henry had to have been doing some of the killings because a man just wouldn’t have ten life sentences and a death sentence and not a killer. Things like that just didn’t go on in our time.
Q. Ms. Schroeder, sometimes we have a tendency to throw words around. Do you understand the distinction between mass killer and serial killer? A. I don’t. That’s why I’m stuttering. I don’t know what you mean by serial killer.
Q. A mass murderer is someone who kills more than one person in one particular transaction at one particular time, all right, as opposed to a serial killer who kills more than one person in different transactions, in other words, different criminal episodes. Does that make it any simpler or - -
A. Yes.
Q. - - still confusing? Now, exactly what did Henry Lucas tell you about the case here in El Paso?
A. The first time I learned about the case in El Paso was when he was talking about the little children going home from school, taking a screen off the window and climbing into this home in a poor
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neighborhood. And I asked what happened and he said there was a horrible murder and this woman was killed with an axe.
Q. Now, let me stop you just a minute. Correct me if I’m wrong, but when Mr. Lucas made that statement to you, that was in the presence of Bob Larson and his wife, Kathy, was it not? A. No, sir.
Q. No? Sometime after he made this first statement to you about El Paso, did he not grant an interview to Bob Larson? A. Yes, he did.
Q. Would you tell the Court who Bob Larson is? A. Bob Larson is a minister with a talk show, Christian.
Q. He is an ordained minister. Right? A. Right.
Q. He is very popular in the Denver, Colorado, area, is he not? A. Yes.
Q. You contacted Bob Larson, did you not? A. No, he contacted me.
Q. He contacted you? A. Uh-huh.
Q. And Mr. Larson indicated he wanted to
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interview Henry Lee Lucas? A. Yes.
Q. Did you arrange for that interview? A. Yes, I did.
Q. How did you go about doing that? A. Just asked the sheriff - - Anyone who wanted - - I had reports a lot of times ask asking him for interviews and stuff, and I liked the Bob Larson show so I just asked the sheriff and he said that would be fine.
Q. So Mr. Larson and his wife, Kathy, came to Georgetown? A. Yes.
Q. They had a tape recorder?
A. Yes.
Q. And they were given access to Mr. Lucas in his cell? A. Yes.
Q. So Mr. Lucas talked for at least a couple of hours about his travels and his adventures. Correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And at one point in time, he discussed the El Paso case with Reverend Bob Larson, did he not?
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I don’t recall what he said, I can recall about he - - how he was mentioning about those children and how the elderly in the old folks’ home could be babysitters in the afternoon for two hours while the parents were away until the children came home from school and it would make the elderly have something to do and the children wouldn’t come home to empty homes.
Q. Ms. Schroeder, at one point in time did Henry Lucas tell Reverend Bob Larson that a few weeks prior to that he had been to El Paso where he had killed someone? A. I don’t - - I don’t remember. I was - - I sat there, but he said very much - - a lot. I would have to listen to the tape. I don’t recall.
But I’m sure if he was talking about the children he was talking about the orange socks - - I mean, the El Paso case.
Q. The axe murder? A. What? Q. The axe murder?
A. I imagine.
Q. And this would have been on September the 29th, 1984? A. I don’t know the date.
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Q. Now, at some point in time Mr. Lucas discussed the murder of his mother with you, did he not? A. He discussed and talks about his mother a lot.
Q. He told you that he had killed his mother? A. He told me he felt responsible for his mother’s death.
Q. Did he ever tell you how he felt responsible? A. He said because he left her, he didn’t check when he hit her, and he assumed she was just knocked out and that he left.
And he said then the car broke down and he started walking back, back to his mother’s, and the patrol car picked him up and took him to the hospital because he had blisters all over his feet from walking trying to get back to his mother. And they took him to the hospital. And when they took him to the hospital and found out who he was, they arrested him for the murder of his mother.
Q. Did Mr. Lucas ever tell you what he hot his mother with? A. Yes, some kind of knife.
Q. She died as a result of it? A. He said - - This is what he said. He said
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that if he had a good lawyer he could have gotten off of it because she died from a heart attack and not - - she did not bleed to death. I don’t even know where the wound was. But his half-sisters put charges on him.
Q. Mr. Lucas indicated to you that his half-sisters put charges on him because he stabbed his mother with a knife, but she died of a heart attack. Correct? A. No, that the sister said that he was responsible for the mother because he left her and he could have gotten her to the hospital.
I don’t know how long she lived before she died and from the time she was hit. I don’t know if she died with a heart attack. I mean, what does the autopsy say? I mean, I don’t know.
Q. I will make that available to you at a later time.
And when Mr. Lucas would discuss the murder of Frieda Powell with you, would he admit to that murder? A. No.
Q. Ever? A. No.
Q. He never admitted to it?
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A.He - - Wait. He would tell the book writers about - - He would tell about murdering her and I would just assume that he had murdered her and everything. And when I questioned him, “Why are you telling all the book writers a different story? Who is - - What’s - - How can you just tell lies like that? Why aren’t you telling the truth,” and he said, “I don’t know the truth about Becky. I don’t know what happened to her.” Q. You’re aware that he was tried by a jury and found guilty of that murder? A. So was he with orange socks.
Q. And you’re aware that he led investigators to the various parts of her body that were previously undiscovered? A. I am not aware that that is her body.
Q. And you never discussed that case with Hugh Aynesworth? I’m talking about the case of Frieda Becky Powell.
A. Only with the Japanese there listening. I didn’t discuss - - I heard it.
Q. And during the time that that Japanese film crew was present, didn’t Mr. Aynesworth at different points in time remind Henry of certain details that Henry Lucas had provided him with as to the murder of
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Becky Powell?
A.I can’t - - I don’t know if he did or if Sheriff Boutwell. I don’t remember. They were - - Sheriff Boutwell would talk and Aynesworth would talk. I don’t recall who was saying what. People would talk - -
Q. Did Mr. Lucas ever discuss the murder of Kate Rich with you? A. Only that he took them somewhere and told them where to dig and they started digging and they couldn’t find her, and that he confessed to it. I’m not sure of this. But I am sure of this: But he got tired and didn’t want to go out digging and everything, so he thought - - he remembered the stove at the House of Prayer and so he said he told them that he took the body and that he burned it. And he said, “I knew they wouldn’t believe it because the stove couldn’t cremate a body and the stink would be so awful and I couldn’t believe that they accepted it.” Q. Of course, they later found a bone fragment and identified is as being human. You’re aware of that?
A, I was aware that they found - - that they went out in the yard, dumped the stove and looked
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through the ashes and found a bone and that the person could not truly identify if it was animal or human, so I was told.
Q. And you’re telling us - -
A. A one-eighth of an inch of a bone is what I was told.
Q. So you’re telling us that a murder conviction was obtained right here in the state of Texas on evidence that could not determine whether or not that bone was human or animal. Is that what you’re saying? A. That’s what I am told, yes.
Q. By whom, Henry Lucas? A. No.
Q. Someone other than Henry Lucas? A. Yes.
Q. Who? A. Lawmen.
Q. Lawmen? A. uh-huh.
Q. Which lawmen? A. I don’t know their names.
Q. Where are they from? A. Waco. One lawman was talking about it to another one and I overheard it.
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Q. Vic Feazell? Did he ever discuss that with you? A. No, no.
Q. Now, with respect to the Conroe murders, we are talking about three cases. Has the name Laura Domez, D O M E Z, ever been mentioned to you? A. I never - - Very few do I know any names of. I just know there were three cases. I cannot even tell you if they were shot, stabbed, anything about the cases, just three cases at Conroe.
Q. Well, if I suggested to you that the three cases out of Conroe pertain to a Laura Domez, and unidentified white female and a Gloria Stephan, could you go along with me on that? A. I could accept that.
Q. If I told you the date of the Domez murder was April the 18th of 1983 and the unidentified white female was March the 17th of 1983 and Gloria Stephan was murdered in October of 1982, would you possibly go along with that? A. I can accept that if you say it.
Q. Believe me, I won’t try to mislead you.
Now, Ms. Schroeder, you told us yesterday that Henry Lucas said that he didn’t commit any of those three homicides in Conroe, Texas. Would you
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agree with that, at least based on what he told you, the question being did Henry Lucas tell you - -
A.Yes
Q. - - he hadn’t committed those murders? A. Yes.
Q. And you testified yesterday that Mr. Lucas told you that during the time of those murders he was in either Pennsylvania or Maryland. Do you recall testifying to that? A. He - - I don’t know what state, but he was out of the state of Texas doing something. I don’t know what he was doing, but he told Clayton. And Clayton had not investigated his whereabouts that Henry said where he was. But I cannot truly say if it was those states. I mean, I don’t recall.
Q. Yes, ma’am. But you testified to that yesterday, you see? A. Well, I - - I’m sure when I said it I said I’m not sure what state, if you would listen, because I would not - - yesterday I wouldn’t know any better that I know today. I don’t know what state.
And I don’t know if he said he was roofing, out working for a mushroom factory or something, because his life is - - there is a lot of jobs. I mean, he is not a piano teacher, period. He did this,
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he did that, he did this here and there and everything. There is no way I can recall.
And so I don’t think you should pinpoint me that he was in Pennsylvania or I said Pennsylvania, Maryland or somewhere or whereabouts other than Conroe.
Q. Did Mr. Lucas indicate that he couldn’t have committed the Conroe murders because he was living outside of the state of Texas during that period of time? A. I don’t know if it was outside, but he - - wherever he was, he had an alibi of where he was to prove that he could not do those cases. That’s all I know.
Q. Well, are you aware that in the latter part of 1982 and the early part of 1983 Mr. Lucas was residing in Stoneburg, Texas? A. Well, I believe that, that he was in Stoneburg doing something that he could prove or something. I don’t know.
Q. Therefore, he certainly wasn’t living in some other state. So he wouldn’t be living in West Virginia, he wouldn’t be living in Pennsylvania, nor would he be living in Maryland. Would you agree with that?
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A.Different times in his life he did live in those states.
Q. Yes, ma’am.
A. And I don’t know when the murders were. I don’t know - - I just know that he - - in the office he said he didn’t commit the murders and that he had proved that, that they would look up what he told them and they did not.
Q. Now, Ms. Schroeder, I remember watching the videotape in which you were being interviewed and you were talking about tattoos. Do you recall that? A. Uh-huh.
Q. Tell us about those tattoos.
A. Okay. You mean about what Henry told me about The Hand of Death? That would take a long time.
Q. Well, no, not - -
A. What do you want, about the - -
Q. I want to know about the disappearing tattoos.
A. The only tattoo that had disappeared - - There is still a sliver of the upside down cross. And he said he had something else, I forgot what it was, that was no longer there. And you can just see a little piece of a cross here that is still there.
Q. Ms. Schroeder, correct me if I’m wrong, but
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Did you not tell the interviewer in that particular videotape that when you first met Henry Lucas he had two satanic type tattoos on his - - on the top of his hand? A. No. I said that he said that he did, and there is just a part of the cross that is still there that is disappearing.
Q. Did you not tell the interviewer that because Henry Lucas had turned to the Lord that those tattoos were beginning to disappear? A. I probably did.
Q. And did you actually see those tattoos begin to disappear? A. Well, I would have to check out his hand. They might be gone today. Anything is possible with Cod.
Q. I agree with you. Now, at some point in time you began to become suspicious of the task force because you had reason to believe that Henry Lucas was confessing to cases that he couldn’t have committed. Is that correct? A. I became suspicious of things when I would see Henry saying he didn’t commit them and then they would appear on the bulletin board. It was not that I thought, well, he could not have done this. I
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Became suspicious because he said that he didn’t and they would say, “Okay. That’s fine, Henry,” and then investigators would come and it would be cleared.
And that is what brought - - I did not judge if he was capable of doing a murder or not.
Q. All right. You began to watch to see how Henry Lucas was interviewed. Do you recall testifying to that? A. I never saw him being interviewed by investigators. I just started watching the bulletin boards and the little flags and the things more often when the things were occurring.
Q. Okay. Therefore, because you were never privy or never allowed to watch an actual interview - -
A. Uh-huh.
Q. - - you’re unaware as to what techniques various investigators would use when they would interview Mr. Lucas? A. That’s right.
Q. Ms. Schroeder, at one point in time did you become concerned about a case in which the victims were Rita Salazar and Frank Keith?
A. I know - - I knew Rita Salazar, and I - - if that’s the name of her boyfriend or the guy she was with, then, yes.
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Q. And would you explain to the Court how you knew Rita Salazar? A. My daughter Monica and Rita used to be cheerleaders together and I would drive her home from football games.
Q. Rita Salazar was a young girl. Is that correct? A. Yes.
Q. And she and her boyfriend were killed coming back from a movie in Austin. Would you agree with that? A. Yes.
Q. Do you happen to know where Rita Salazar’s body was found? A. That day that the Japanese took - - came to film Henry, the sheriff took the Japanese and they went out north of Georgetown somewhere. And they came back - - and I hope I’m getting this right. And they came back and Sheriff Boutwell said that Henry was able to say, “Well, just up the road” - - I’m not sure if it was like four or six miles - - is where Rita Salazar’s body was.
And Sheriff Boutwell said, “You’re two-tenths of a mile off, Henry.”
Q. At that point in time did you begin to
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wonder whether or not Henry Lucas might be implicated or involved in the Rita Salazar murder? A. I asked him many times if he knew anything about Rita because I was interested. And I told him it was - - she was a friend of Monica’s.
And he’d said that he didn’t do it. And I was shocked when I opened the newspaper one day and - - at a friend’s house because I don’t take newspapers. And I opened the paper and found that he had confessed to Rita Salazar’s murder.
Q. Did that not concern you? A. Yes.
Q. That he had first told you that he had nothing to do with it and then later confessed to it? A. Of course it did.
Q. And as soon as you read it, you went to see Henry Lucas, did you not? A. Yes, screaming and yelling at him.
Q. And what did he tell you? A. And he said - - And I said, “How can you do this to Kathy, my youngest daughter,” I said, because in school she - - Rita had a brother in high school and he used to say how Sheriff Boutwell said that Henry had killed his sister and how he wanted to get his hands on Henry Lucas.
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And Kathy said, “No, Henry didn’t do it, because Henry told mother and he didn’t.” And at that time, the brother to Rita said, “Well, the sheriff said he did.” And Kathy said, “Well, there hasn’t been a confession or anything.” This went on for months. And so Kathy was very upset because she felt she was betrayed.
Q. Well, at one point in time did Mr. Lucas tell you that he had killed Rita Salazar? A. He never did.
Q. Did you not testify before the McLennan County Grand Jury on April 17th, 1985, that Henry Lucas had indicated to you that he and Ottis killed Rita Salazar? A. You’re right. I’m sorry.
Q. You did tell that to the grand jury? A. Yes. And I recall what he said, okay? He had said that he had - - Let’s see - - that the boy was killed first.
Q. And who killed the boy? A. I don’t recall. Ottis, I think. I’m not sure, okay. And that - - And that Rita walked across the freeway or something, and while she was walking that they had kill her, but that she didn’t know she was going to be killed so she wasn’t fearful and
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It wasn’t a terrorizing thing to her.
Q. And she was killed? A. And I knew - - I mean, I knew it made no difference. I was so upset because she was killed, period. And knowing you’re not going to be shot in the back or whatever, not knowing made no difference. I mean, I was hurt.
Q. Ultimately Mr. Lucas told you who did kill Rita Salazar? A. I do not know if it was Ottis or him. I can’t recall. And he later said that he did not. Then I left.
Q. Now, you seemed to think yesterday that the Christy Lynn Booth case stemmed from El Paso? A. No.
Q. No? A. The Christy Lynn Booth case, when they were making a trip to El Paso or in this area around here, they were going to a lot of places. And I said, “Henry, try to get to where the Christy Lynn Booth thing was,” because it was supposed to be a lake and he was supposed to have killed her and left her body by a lake. And I said so that can be cleared up for the Booths, because Henry said that he had killed Christy Lynn.
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Q. Let’s talk about another case. Let’s talk about the Hughes case out of Delaware.
I believe that you were closely involved with that case in the beginning. Was that not correct? A. No, I was never closely involved with it.
Q. Did you go to Henry Lucas and ask him about it? Did you explain to him the conversation that you had had with the defendant in that case, his father? A. I told - - that my - - I told Henry I received a telephone call and that the father was so happy that he confessed to it and he told me to thank him from the bottom of his heart. And I did.
Q. Are you aware that Mr. Hughes’ son is still in the penitentiary for that case? A. I am. Mr. Hughes still calls me, you know, he still writes.
Q. So that was another case that law enforcement didn’t just blankly accept from Henry Lucas? A. Yes, they did.
Q. They did?
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A.They did. They did accept it. And within a few days Henry was taken to Waco. And when he got to Waco, I said, “Henry, what about the Hughes case?” I said, “You confessed to that.” And he said, I didn’t do it.” And so I don’t know what all took place, who called who or what, but eventually I was in - - when I was in Waco, someone from Delaware came and asked me a lot of questions about it and I told them about how - - I repeated about the wife was a nurse and the two boys were in the house and she was murdered outside and whatever this secretary to the church told me about the murder.
Q. Ms. Schroeder, I have a question for you in that regard. If law enforcement just blanky accepted that - -
A. I didn’t say blanky. I said that they accepted it that night. They - - There was the little - - in Delaware with a number on it.
Q. But apparently they haven’t accepted it now? A. When - - What was accepted in the task force and what was accepted in the court of law, I’m not aware of. I’m just saying that they accepted - - they went home to Delaware, from what Mr. Hughes said, that they found the real killer and they were - -
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his son would be able to come home then.
Q. And that’s, of course, what Mr. Hughes, the son of the - - or the father of the defendant who is now serving life told you? A. Yes.
Q. You told us yesterday that when you became concerned about Mr. Lucas taking false confessions, you asked him how he was able to give so many details and how he was able to take officers to the crime scenes/ And he gave you an explanation for that, did he not? A. Yes.
Q. I believe you told us yesterday that he said that the officers, when they would be driving around, they would start to eye the exits and then they would slow down and this would cue him. Do you remember that? A. That’s what he said, yes.
Q. Could you give us any idea when Mr. Lucas told you that? A. Where? When? A. Let’s start with when, approximately. I know you can’t be exact as to the date, but the approximate time.
A. I - - In Waco. I believe in Waco.
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Q. Did Mr. Lucas indicate to you that he was somewhat expert in being able to read body language? A. He never used that term to me.
Q. But you and I both understand what body language - -
A. I understand, yes. I assumed that he learned pretty well how to do that.
Q. And did Mr. Lucas also tell you that he could pick up small hints as to where a body had been found previous to that based on eye focus? A. He told me that - - like he could - - from the pictures that he could see that there would be maybe some type of big electrical, you know, these poles, a whole bunch of them or something in the picture. And so then when he would get there he would see the poles.
Or he would see in the picture maybe a workman’s glove that had a bull’s head on it or something. And so when he would stand there, he would say, “Well, this is different. There was a glove here with a bull’s head, a workman’s glove.”
And everyone would be so impressed because, “Yes, yes, yes, we found that at the scene of the crime.” And he said he saw it from the photos.
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Q. I wonder how he was able to get all those details. Did he ever explain that to you? A. He said like there would be a picture in a kitchen and he would see two empty bowls - - I mean, two bowls and toast - - some kind of toasted cereal, so when he would confess to them, he would say Becky and Frankie were with him and they ate some cereal. And he would pick that up in photos. And if there were more people, he would use Becky or Frankie or whatever.
Q. Did Mr. Lucas ever tell you how he was able to find the crime scene here in El Paso? A. No. He just said that it was far and hard to get to or something. He did not say how, no.
Q. At no time did he ever discuss it with you. Did he always tell you that that was how he was able to find the crime scene is by reading body language, by watching the ways the officers would focus their eyes and their - -
A. No, he - - not - - not everything was done like that. He said he went to Round Rock to the Minit Market and said, “This is where I picked up the Cervenka girl.” And it wasn’t the right Minit Market.
So Sheriff Boutwell said, “Well, Henry,
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don’t you recall you said it was near a high school and a railroad track?” And Henry said, “Oh, yeah.” And so then he knew that’s the kind of Minit Market, by the high school and railroad track.
Q. Did Henry Lucas ever tell you that officers all over the United States had just flat out been dishonest and actually driven him to crime scenes and then later - -
A. He never said that, no.
Q. Never said that? A. Huh-uh.
Q. You’re sure? A. That all lawmen are dishonest and had driven him to the crime scenes? Q. Yeah.
A. No, he never said that.
Q. Are you sure? You and Henry Lucas were close friends. You were his minister.
A. Right.
Q. Henry Lucas trusted you? A. Yes.
Q. Presumably? A. Yes.
Q. And he would confide in you? A. Yes.
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Q. And he never told you that peace officers would actually drive him to the scene and then later lie and say that he had guided them to the scene? A. He never said that.
Q. Did Henry Lucas ever tell you that peace officers had just given him all the details to the crimes so that he would be able to give a reasonable accurate confession? A. No. He gathered information from - - a little bit here and a little bit there and put it all together. He did not say that anyone - - one person sat there and gave him word-for-word and detail.
He said that he was given - - that Clayton would go over and over a case with him and then when the investigators would come and they would talk, he could piece things together, you know, from photos.
Q. Ms. Schroeder, if I told you that Henry Lucas testified here less than two weeks ago that he was always led to crime scenes by police officers - -
A. Yes.
Q. - - and the officers would later misrepresent what had happened and say that he had actually guided them, that would appear to be inconsistent with what he told you, wouldn’t it? A. No, sir.
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Q. Why not? A. Because he did not tell me - - I do not know who drove him to any of the scenes. I know that he never drove himself to any of the scenes. I don’t know if they were peace officers, DA’s or who.
Q. Well, did - -
A. I just know that he never drove - - that he never behind the wheel driving and they said, “Okay. Drive us to the scene.” Q. No, I wouldn’t think that they would let him drive.
A. Okay.
Q. I would think he had a driver. Do you agree? A. I would, yes.
Q. But once again he had always maintained to you that he was able to find crime scenes because he could, if you will pardon the expression - -
A. Yes.
Q. - - milk the officers. In other words - -
A. Figure out - -
Q. - - figure out on his own - -
A. Hit and miss, “Oh, let’s try this.” And after all, there is just so many roads, turns, to take, and you finally get on the right road.
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Q. Shall we say process of elimination? A. That sounds good to me.
Q. But then later under oath like two weeks ago he testifies right here in this courtroom that he was always taken to those scenes by the officers.
A. Well, he - -
Q. They would just flat out say, “Well, Henry, that’s where it happened. Right there.”
That doesn’t square with what you’re - - what he told you in the past. Would you agree or not? A. He - - The point is, okay, he - -
Q. Well, let’s answer the question.
A. Right. I have to have a case. Like I can say about the Cervenka girl, since I used that. Henry gets to the Minit Market. It’s not the right one, but that the sheriff is telling him about the railroad track and high school. Then he is able to go to the right one.
So did we say that - - that Henry took them to the right thing or do we say that the law drove him to the right thing? He had help from the law, right? Yes.
Q. His own - -
A. That’s right. I wasn’t there. I was not in the car. I do not know. I can just tell you what I
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am told. I do not know.
Q. And once again you were told that he was always able to discern for himself where the crime scene was because of body language and by a process of elimination? A. Yes.
Q. Now, you being close to Henry Lucas like you are, it’s quite obvious that in the past based on your testimony he’s lied to you, has he not? A. Yes.
Q. He’s lied to many, many times? A. Yes.
Q. Do you know him well enough to know when he’s lying and when he’s telling the truth? A. Not always.
Q. What do you look for to determine if he’s telling the truth? How do you know when he’s telling the truth? A. Nothing that I can say. I cannot always tell when he is telling the truth. I rely on - - I seek the Lord, is this truth or lie. Because I cannot tell. I cannot tell by any change of his voice or how he looks. I mean, it’s - - I cannot tell. I cannot.
Q. Can Henry Lucas be deceptive? Page 3368
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What is the difference in lies and being deceptive?
Q. You choose whatever word you like.
A. Okay. I said he has lied to me.
Q. Can he be cunning? A. Meaning - - I know what - - I think I know what cunning is, but I want to know what you feel cunning is.
Q. Can Henry Lucas use people? A. Henry - - I don’t see him as a type of - - is a giver. But - -
Q. I’m sorry, ma’am. I misunderstood you.
A. I said I don’t see Henry as using people as much as being a giver to people.
But Henry is - - But Henry can flow with a lie without any - - you know, so he - - Are you - - That again, lying and cunning is kind of the same. Do you not agree? Q. I’m sorry? A. I said lying and being cunning is kind of the same. Do you not agree? Q. Sometimes they go hand in hand, that’s right.
You told us yesterday that at one point in time Henry Lucas balked at certain cases and he told
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Bob Prince, he said, “Bob, I just didn’t do these cases.” Do you remember that? A. Yes.
Q. And Bob Prince said, “Well, okay, Henry. They’re not yours.” A. Yes.
Q. Is that what you told us Bob Prince said? A. Yes.
Q. And he didn’t try to force Henry Lucas to try and take those cases, did he? A. Not then, no.
Q. Are you saying that he did it later? A. I don’t know. I don’t - -
Q. Well, you - -
A. I just know that at the time, no. He just said, “Okay, Henry, all right.” Q. So based upon what personal knowledge you had, Bob Prince was given him the benefit of the doubt? A. Right. He accepted that he didn’t do those cases, as far as I could see accepted. Bob took Henry’s word that he didn’t do those cases, right.
Q. But death row was always held over the head of Henry Lucas? A. Yes. And it was not that, “You have to sign
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Confessions.” The word was used if he - - “If Henry Lucas will not cooperate,” was the word. It wasn’t - - It was never said, “If he doesn’t sign this confession.” The word was, “If he doesn’t cooperate.” Q. Well, Ms. Schroeder, it’s obvious that Henry Lucas didn’t cooperate that particular time because he told Bob Prince, he said, “Well, I’m not going to take those cases.” And Bob said, “Well, all right.” Right? A. Right.
Q. Did Henry go to death row? A. No, he did not. But when the people came from Arkansas, he took them.
Q. Oh, he took them later? A. Yes.
Q. This is what I was saying about the man, the watchman at the warehouse that was beaten by a pipe was killed by Henry and Ottis. And, I mean, he denied it. Bob Prince accepted that he denied it. Arkansas comes and it’s posted on the bulletin.
And then I asked Bob about it and he said, “Well, when the investigators came, I guess his mind cleared up.” And that was that.
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Q. And Bob Prince sure didn’t indicate to you that he influenced Henry in any - - Henry Lucas in any regard with those Arkansas confessions, did he? Do you understand the question? A. Yes. No. But he got a little bit of information, because Bob was just not giving that much information but trying to find out if he, you know, gave him some information about it.
Q. But based on what you’re telling us, Ms. Schroeder, I get the impression that the task force really didn’t have quite as much influence over Henry Lucas as was suggested yesterday. Because, you see, Henry Lucas was allowed to reject cases and he wasn’t sent to death row.
Now, am I wrong about that? A. You were the one who said that 5,000 - - that he could have confessed to 5,000 if he wanted to, and he wasn’t - - he didn’t.
Q. What if I told you two weeks ago Henry Lucas testified and the words came out of his mouth sitting right where you’re sitting right now that thousands of cases were presented to him during the time he was confined in Georgetown.
A. Yes.
Q. You have no reason to disbelieve that, do
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you? A. Well, you said 5,000.
Q. Well, we’ll change it to thousands. How’s that? A. Okay.
Q. That gives us a lot of latitude to play with.
A. Okay.
Q. Thousands of cases. Now, we’ve already established that less than 200 cases were finally cleared against Henry Lucas, so my question is: Just how much influence did the task force have on Henry Lucas in regards to whether or not he confessed to cases? A. Every case that he confessed to went through the task force hands.
Q. Yes, ma’am, except for one that I know of and that’s El Paso. And that’s another subject.
You know, my question is this - - Those confessions that went through the task force hands, perhaps you’re right. But the question is this: How much influence did the task force have over whether or not Henry Lucas confessed to those cases? A. He was - - He was - - He worked cases with Clayton Smith in the office, so Henry knew cases
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before the investigation - - investigators would come there. If you’re asking me if the rangers were in a room when Henry confessed and get a - - and signed confessions with the investigators or something, I do not know if the task force was there, if the rangers were there or not.
Q. Have you seen these things with your own eyes, Ms. Schroeder? A. I would see that Bob Prince briefing and the investigators being in the room with Henry. Now, if Bob walked in there, I do not know. I was never in the room.
Q. So what you saw was Bob Prince briefing peace officers from other jurisdictions. Is that correct? A. Yes. And I saw Clayton briefing him and giving - - showing him pictures and stuff when the investigators weren’t there. They worked eight hours a day in going over cases, always over and over cases.
Q. The next thing I want to ask you about is celebration that was held.
A. Um-hum.
Q. This alleged celebration in West Virginia.
A. Um-hum.
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Q. After the Clemmie Curtis case.
A. Um-hum.
Q. The Clemmie Curtis I’m talking about is the police officer.
A. Yes. Yes.
Q. Now, you told us yesterday - - I’ve got to ask you about this. You told us there was a bootleg party.
A. This is what Henry told me. They - - I know that they came back with bootleg. When they came home from that trip, they had bootleg on the airplane. I’m not saying drinking. They came - - They brought it home with them.
Q. You’re talking about bootleg whiskey? A. I imagine. If bootleg is whiskey, then I’m talking about whiskey. It was something, a gift given to - - and I don’t know if it was given to the rangers or to the sheriff.
Q. Well, it probably wouldn’t be bootleg Coca-Cola. Would you go along with me on that? A. That’s right.
Q. And, now, according to what Henry Lucas told you, there was a party for Bob Prince because he had helped clear the Clemmie Curtis - -
A. No, I did not say that.
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Q. Oh, okay. Well, then, I misunderstood you.
A. I said there was a victory party because the case was cleared. The victory party was not for Bob Prince. I mean, who knows? I don’t know. A victory party. Everybody was a part of the victory.
Q. Was Henry Lucas invited to that party? A. Henry said he was taken there.
Q. He was taken to the party? A. He was taken to a Howard Johnson’s.
Q. Howard Johnson’s? A. Uh-huh.
Q. And people from law enforcement were there? A. Who - - Wherever he stayed in the jail, okay, there were some lawmen there, but they took - - they were the ones that drove him back to the jail. He did not spend the night or anything. He was there at the party, pizza party? Q. It was a pizza party? A. With bootleg whiskey.
Q. With bootleg whiskey and pizza at Howard Johnson’s? A. Um-hum.
Q. And Mr. Lucas was allowed to attend that party? A. Um-hum.
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Q. Did he tell you how many lawmen were there? A. If he did, I forgot.
Q. Well, did he indicate there were a bunch of lawmen or just a few or do you recall? A. I can recall that he said Sheriff Boutwell kissed him on the head.
Q. Okay. I’m going to ask you about that.
THE COURT: Now, let’s do this. We’re going to take a break.
Let me suggest this to you. We’re never - - We’re going to be with this witness the rest of the day if we go on like this. I’m going to let them bring on this witness to see if I can’t get him out of here.
Now, we are going to come back after this break. Now, I quit at 5:00 or a little before and, Mr. Ponton, if you want to keep that witness here, it will be up to you.
You know, I’m getting a little tires of this repetition of this thing from you and calling all these witnesses to testify to things I have heard six or eight or ten times. So if this gentleman doesn’t have something to say, don’t put him on the stand. If he has something to say that can enlighten us about this case, put him on.
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But I’m not here to listen to a bunch - - you know, just repeating things I have heard. I have heard it now for almost a month and it’s taken - - In other words, I’m listening, but please don’t get, you know, don’t have me stop listening before you quit talking.
MR. PONTON: Yes, Your Honor.
(A recess was taken.) THE COURT: Mr. Feazell, raise your right hand.
MR. JEWKES: Pardon me, Your Honor. I don’t mean to interrupt. I would ask the record to reflect that the state has not passed Clemmie Schroeder but is allowing the defense to put Mr. Feazell on out of order and the state reserves the right to recall Clemmie Schroeder after Mr. Feazell’s testimony.
MS. SIPES: Thank you, Mr. Jewkes.
THE COURT: Yes. And I want to say this, that Mr. Feazell is testifying over the objection of the state because I want to get him out of here. I don’t know what he is doing here or whether he can help us at all, but I’m going to try to get him out.
Mr. Feazell, I quit at 5:00. If you’re here at 5:00, you may be here tomorrow. Now, Mr. Ponton, don’t take up to much of my time.
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MR. PONTON: I will not, Your Honor.
THE COURT: I don’t want anything repeated over four times.
MR. PONTON: I will not, Your Honor. Your Honor, before I proceed I want the record to note Mr. Feazell is here represented by his attorney, Jeff Kurney, from Fort Worth, Texas. As the Court might be aware, Mr. Feazell is currently under indictment from a federal grand jury in Waco, and I do not propose to ask him any questions regarding the current criminal charges against him and he has brought his attorney here to insure that such not be done.
VIC FEAZELL,
Having been first duly sworn by the Court to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, was examined and testified as follows:
BY MR. PONTON:
Q. Mr. Feazell, how are you employed? A. I’m the elected district attorney of McLennan County, Texas.
Q. How long have you been the district attorney for McLennan County?
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MR. PONTON: I will not, Your Honor.
THE COURT: I don’t want anything repeated over four times.
MR. PONTON: I will not, Your Honor. Your Honor, before I proceed I want the record to note Mr. Feazell is here represented by his attorney, Jeff Kurney, from Fort Worth, Texas. As the Court might be aware, Mr. Feazell is currently under indictment from a federal grand jury in Waco, and I do not propose to ask him any questions regarding the current criminal charges against him and he has brought his attorney here to insure that such not be done.
VIC FEAZELL,
Having been first duly sworn by the Court to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, was examined and testified as follows:
BY MR. PONTON:
Q. Mr. Feazell, how are you employed? A. I’m the elected district attorney of McLennan County, Texas.
Q. How long have you been the district attorney for McLennan County?
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Since January the 1st of 1983.
Q. And are you currently standing for reelection to that office? A. Yes, sir.
Q. When is that election? A. November the 4th of this year.
Q. Mr. Feazell, did you have occasion in 1985 to - - or late 1984 to come into contact with a certain suspect in some murders in your county by the name of Henry Lucas? A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. Did Mr. Lucas first come to your attention as a suspect in three murders in McLennan County? A. That’s true. That would be back around November, I believe, of 1984 when I first found out that he had confessed to two or maybe three cases. Later on I did find out that it was three cases that he had confessed to in McLennan County.
Q. Would these cases be the cases regarding homicide deaths of Dorothy Collins, Glen Parks and Rita Salazar? A. That’s right.
Q. At the time that Lucas confessed to killing those three persons in your county, do you know if he made those confessions while he was with the Texas
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Rangers as part of the Lucas task force in Georgetown?
A.I do know that he was in the custody of the Texas Rangers at the time. And on at least one of those occasions he was brought to Waco where he was interviewed - - brought to Waco by the rangers where he was interviewed by the Bellmead police.
On two other occasions either our law enforcement officers went to Georgetown or - - and interviewed him in the task forces there or they brought him up to McLennan County. I don’t recall right now.
Q. Okay.
A. But he never left the custody of the task force at that time.
Q. After he confessed to the murder of those three individuals, were those cases brought to your office for your office to process for an indictment and prosecution of him? A. Not immediately. I first found out about the confessions when I read it in the newspaper. But at a later time, the confessions were brought to my office and we received numerous media wanting to know when they were going to present it to a grand jury.
Q. Did you and your office review those
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
confessions by Mr. Lucas to those three homicides? A. Yes, sir, we did. I looked at them personally, several of my staff members looked at the confessions.
Q. And what was your conclusion based on looking at those confessions as to Mr. Lucas’ involvement in those three homicides? A. I was not satisfied with the content of the confessions. I knew it would be easy to just close the cases because it would be doubtful that he would ever come to trial unless they just wanted to push it, but I wanted to make sure that he had the right person. We had a suspect in two of the cases, and I wanted to satisfy myself that we weren’t just clearing the case but that we had the right man.
Q. As a matter of fact, in the Salazar case you had a pretty good suspect? A. In the Dorothy Collins case we had a real good suspect. He is presently serving a life sentence right now and we convicted him on a companion case. Dorothy was a prostitute from east Waco and there had been several murders of black prostitutes in west Waco. Even after Mr. Lucas was in custody, the murders of black prostitutes continued.
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When we convicted Joe Leamy of the murder of anther black prostitute, a case we were able to make because there was some eyewitnesses testimony, when he was put into custody the murders ceased.
Q. All right.
A. The MO is the same in all of them. It was a knife.
Q. Was the Salazar case the other case you had a suspect in? A. We had a family suspect on Glen Parks.
Q. Okay. Excuse me. Glen Parks.
A. We didn’t develop a suspect on Salazar until after Henry Lucas confessed to Salazar. We didn’t want anything to do with the Salazar case, to be honest with you.
Q. Well, would it then be your - - would it then be true, then, that in all three of these cases that Lucas confessed to you either at the time of his confessions or subsequently developed good suspects in each of those cases other than Henry Lucas? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, did there come a time when you brought the Lucas cases to a grand jury in McLennan County to look into whether or not Lucas could have committed those murders.
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A.Yes, sir, that’s true. Initially what I had planned to do, and sometimes I wish that’s what I had done is just do nothing. We didn’t have to file the cases. We didn’t have to take confessions. But there was a lot of inquiry about when are you going to do something on the Lucas cases, and so we decided to look into them a little closer. This was prior to the grand jury.
Q. All right.
A. And so I had some of my - - one of my investigators and one of my lawyers see if they could find out where Henry Lucas was at the time our three murders were committed.
Q. Did your investigator uncover some information that would tend to show that Lucas could not have committed those three murders because he was elsewhere other than Waco when those murders occurred? A. Not at that time, but in the process of trying to find information to place Lucas either in our county or somewhere else at the time of those murders, we found information that placed him in other parts of the country at times when he was supposed to have been committing murders other places, murders that had been cleared by the task force.
Q. And - -
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
Which got our curiosity up, to say the least.
Q. In other words, you had information that would tend to show Lucas could not have committed those murders that you knew about through the task force synopsis - -
A. That’s right.
Q. - - that they distributed? A. That’s right.
Q. After you came into possession of that information, did you then request the assistance of the prosecutor’s assistance office of the attorney general to assist you in that investigation? A. Yes, we did. I had a meeting with the attorney general, Jim Mattox, and spoke with him about what he had found out.
At the time, we had continued to look into the Lucas situation and had discovered even more information, and by then we had heard about Bob Lemons and Joyce. By then through some of our inquires somebody said, “Well, why don’t you contact Hugh Aynesworth?” So we contacted Hugh Aynesworth.
And if just began to snowball through Lemons and through Aynesworth and through some of the other people, Chris Piazza, other people that we contacted concerning Lucas.
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Q. Through the compilation of all that information and the assistance of the attorney general of the state of Texas, were you able to present information to the McLennan County Grand Jury regarding Henry Lucas having confessed to crimes he could not have committed? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And when was that information first brought to your grand jury in Waco? A. We started that grand jury sometime in, I believe it was, April of 1985.
Q. All right. Now, when you started that, where was Mr. Lucas? A. He was where he had always been since he had been in custody and confessing. He was in the custody of the Texas Ranger task force in Georgetown.
Q. And did you have a bench warrant issued to bring him to Waco to appear before the grand jury to testify about how he could commit murders in places that documents show he couldn’t have been present? A. Yes, sir, we did. Attorney General Mattox and I both signed an application for a bench warrant which was then granted by District Judge George Allen.
Q. At the time that Lucas was brought to Waco to appear before that grand jury, was there - - do you
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Know whether or not there was some discussions between Mr. Lucas and the people who had him in his custody before they let him come up to Waco? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What was that? A. Well, because if the importance of the case, our sheriff himself and his chief deputy, Dan Winberger, proceeded to Georgetown to obtain custody of Henry Lee Lucas pursuant to the district court bench order - - bench warrant. And it took them at least a couple hours before Lucas was turned over to them. There was a conference with Ed Walsh, the DA in Georgetown, Bob Prince and Boutwell where they bounced it back and forth, a lot of it in front of our sheriff and in front of his chief deputy about whether or they would even let him go, conferences in the back room with Lucas. Finally - -
Q. What kind of conferences are you aware of that took place between - -
MR. JEWKES: Your Honor - -
I don’t know.
MR. JEWKES: Your Honor, I withdraw my objection.
I don’t know.
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) Okay.
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A. Our chief deputy, I talked to him, instructed him just to ask them whether or not they were going to comply with this valid court order. If not, fine, turn around and come home.
He finally approached them with that question, “Are you going to comply with this court order or not?” They decided at that time to release Mr. Lucas into our custody.
When they brought him out to turn him over to the sheriff, patted him on the back and told him something to the effect, “Stick to your story. Don’t say anything. We will get you back in a couple of days.” Q. Okay. Now - -
Something to that effect. I’m paraphrasing. It’s been a long time. But the message was clear.
Q. During the course of your grand jury proceedings in Waco in April of 1985 - -
A. April through July.
Q. - - April through July of 1985, did the grand jury come into possession of information that Lucas could not have committed many of the murders that he had confessed to having committed?
MR. JEWKES: Your Honor, I’m going to object on the grounds of relevance unless it pertains to the
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three cases stemming from Mr. Feazell’s jurisdiction.
We have been over a lot of other cases in the past three weeks. I would ask Mr. Feazell to stick with his three cases rather than getting into other cases.
THE COURT: Well, I’m going to let him answer that question just as a general question. If you know, answer.
Yes, sir. We received a lot of information, and the reason we were looking into - -
THE COURT: Well, I didn’t say you could tell me the reason. I said you could answer that question as general information.
As general information.
THE COURT: Thank you.
- - we received information that he could not have committed many of the cases he had confessed to, and that he likely had not committed the ones in our jurisdiction.
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) Those would the Collins, Parks and Salazar cases that he had previously confessed to committing in McLennan County? A. That’s right.
Q. Now, when Mr. Lucas was in Waco to testify before that grand jury, are you aware of any
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Pressures put upon him by anyone not to appear before the grand jury and not to recant his previously given confessions? MR. JEWKES: I’m going to object to that, Your Honor, on the grounds it has no relevance. It does not pertain to the voluntariness of any confession given in El Paso County.
THE COURT: Well, I’ll overrule the objection. Go ahead and answer the question.
Yes, sir, I am.
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) What were some of the pressures put upon him to either not recant his confessions or to stick to them? A. One thing was a visit by a man named Bob Larson who had put a pretty heavy duty sales job on Henry to stick to his line, that he is America’s biggest mass murderer and all the people he would be letting down if he changed his mind.
Q. Bob Larson was a radio preacher from Colorado, wasn’t he? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And was he not close to Sheriff Jim Boutwell from Williamson - -
A. Sheriff Boutwell - -
THE COURT: Let me ask you a question. Was
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this gentleman with Mr. Larson when he interviewed Mr. - -
I was there for part of it, yes, sir.
THE COURT: You know, Ponton, that’s what - - I let you the ask the question, and then you get into hearsay on hearsay. I mean, it just - - it’s just amazing. I don’t know.
I had to make the objection, but you can’t let him talk about things like that. If he was there, I’ll let him talk about it. If he wasn’t there, don’t talk about it.
MR. PONTON: Yes, Your Honor.
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) Based upon what you observed, did you observe Mr. Larson putting a sales job on Lucas not to recant his confessions? A. For a brief moment, yes, sir, and then viewing Mr. Lucas and his upset nature and crying and confusion and not knowing what to do after his contact with Mr. Larson.
Q. Okay. And there came a time after Mr. Lucas’ contact with Mr. Larson that Mr. Lucas recanted his recantations? In other words, he said, “Oh, I take back the fact that I lied about the confessions. Now I really was telling the truth and I am still a big
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mass murderer.” Didn’t that happen? A. Yes, sir.
Q. While Mr. Lucas was in Waco? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And then shorty after that, did Mr. Lucas take that back and say once again that he was lying about the confessions and that they were all false? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Okay. What other pressures did you observe that Mr. Lucas was under to not recant his previously given confessions while he was there in Waco?
A. One visit in the jail from Sheriff Boutwell I learned about as Boutwell was leaving. He had tape recorded - - I tried to get the tape recording from Boutwell. He wouldn’t give it to us.
Q. Did you observe Mr. Lucas upset after his visit with sheriff Boutwell? A. After that, yes, sir.
Q. And how was he upset? Did you observe any of that on - -
A. How he was upset? Q. How Mr. Lucas was upset after his visit from Sheriff Boutwell.
A. You mean, how was he acting? Q. Yes.
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Crying, not knowing what to do, confused and very concerned that if he backed off and said that he was not a mass murderer that Sister Clemmie would not see him anymore.
Q. Was this something that was related to him by Sheriff Boutwell, to your knowledge? A. That’s my understanding, yes, sir.
Q. Now, there came a time when Mr. Lucas was to appear before your grand jury and testify? A. That’s right.
Q. And prior to him appearing and testifying, did certain federal agents come and demand to see Mr. Lucas? A. Yes, sir. Strangest thing you ever saw. Three FBI agents up at 7:00 in the morning wanting to get in to see Henry Lee Lucas.
Q. And at that time was Mr. Lucas scheduled to appear before the grand jury impaneled by you and assisted by Attorney General Jim Mattox? A. Yes, sir. If my memory serves me right, he was scheduled that day.
Q. Did Mr. Lucas have an attorney that day?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What was his name? A. Guy Cox.
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Q. And was Mr. Cox with Mr. Lucas to advise him when he would appear before the grand jury? A. You mean to advise him - -
Q. Prior to going and whether he should appear and things of that nature? A. As best I recall, Mr. Cox was with him constantly.
Q. Was there any pressure put upon you by the FBI agents to try to keep Mr. Lucas from testifying before that grand jury? MR. JEWKES: Objection, Your Honor. I’m going to object as to the relevance of that particular line of questioning.
THE COURT: Well, I’ll overrule that objection.
A. What they wanted to do was to talk to Henry Lucas prior to him testifying before the grand jury. They were pretty upset when I got to work because they had already been to Sheriff Boutwell and Sheriff Harwell wouldn’t let them in the jail unless they cleared it with me. They were waiting in my office when I got there around 8:00 to see me.
I already - - As I previously said, they wanted to go in and see Henry Lucas before he spoke to the grand jury, and I said no, and I don’t think
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These guys were used to hearing no because they weren’t at all happy about it.
Two assistants from the attorney general’s office, Reed Lockhoff and I believe it was, Mile Hodge that was with him that day were also there.
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) They were attorneys? A. Yes.
Q. Okay.
A. And Jim Mattox was flying in. We were expecting him at any moment.
I told them, “You have got to wait and talk to Jim Mattox.” Attorney General Mattox.” Attorney General Mattox walked in, found out what was going on. And all this occurred right in my presence. He hit the ceiling, Mattox did.
Q. Did Mattox call the U.S. attorney to - -
A. Mattox called Helen Evansberg, U.S. attorney in San Antonio, and it was - - I only heard Attorney General Mattox’s end of the conversation, but it was - - to say it was heated is an understatement. It was a hot discussion.
The end result was that the FBI, he told her they weren’t getting in until after Lucas testified. He said he was concerned that it was the federal government trying to tamper with one of our witnesses and - -
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Q. It - -
A. - - that was the whole - - he talked to her for about 15 minutes. And that was the whole - - the whole thing of the - - of his conversation was what were these FBI agents doing up at 7:00 in the morning to see Henry Lucas? You couldn’t get three FBI agents out at 7:00a.m. unless the President’s life was in danger. On and on about tampering with out witness.
He told her, he said, “As soon as Lucas is through testifying, they can talk to him. No problem. Talk to him all you want.” They weren’t interested in that and they left.
Q. Are you aware if any promises or any rewards were offered to Henry Lucas to - - prior to him testifying before the McLennan County Grand Jury? MR. JEWKES: I’m going to object to that particular question, Your Honor. It hasn’t been qualified.
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) By anyone?
THE COURT: Well, I’m going to let him answer the question, if he is aware of it.
Any rewards offered to him regarding his testimony before the McLennan County Grand Jury?
Q. Q. (BY MR. PONTON) Yes, sir.
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Not that I’m aware of.
Q. Are you aware of any threats made to Mr. Lucas prior to him testifying before the McLennan County Grand Jury? A. Only around-about things that had come through the preacher Larson.
Q. Larson, okay. No threats by anyone in your office or the attorney general’s office? A. No, of course not. Our approach with Henry Lucas from the very beginning is that, “We just want you to tell the truth. Go in there to the grand jury. If you want to confess to everything under the sun, we don’t care. Just tell the truth.” Q. Did you and your office and the attorney general and his office institute an investigation to follow up on what Mr. Lucas told that grand jury regarding his involvement in your cases and the other false confessions? MR. JEWKES: Your Honor, I’m going to object. This is precisely what was discussed in chambers. We are attempting to get into other cases.
THE COURT: Well, I’m going to let him answer it.
MR. JEWKES: All right, sir.
Well, our grand jury itself from April
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Through mid-July investigated what with the assistance of the attorney general’s office, with two of his attorneys assigned to the case and with an investigator from his office, Mike Feary, assigned to the case.
Then after our grand jury ended, the attorney general continued to follow up on information obtained through our grand jury and to tie up loose ends which resulted in what has been called the Mattox report.
MR. PONTON: Okay. May I approach the witness, Your Honor? THE COURT: Go ahead, Mr. Ponton.
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) I show you Defendant’s Exhibit 30, the Lucas report.
A. That’s it.
Q. Are you familiar with that as compiled by the attorney general’s office? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you agree with the attorney general’s conclusion that Mr. Lucas probably did not commit more than three murders? MR. JEWKES: Objection, Your Honor - -
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) Based upon your personal investigation - -
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THE COURT: He is objecting, Mr. Ponton.
MR. PONTON: Yes, Your Honor.
MR. JEWKES: Your Honor, I’m going to object to that on the grounds that, first of all, we are talking about hearsay as it comes from Jim Mattox’s staff.
THE COURT: Sustain the objection. Go on to something else.
MR. PONTON: Yes, Your Honor. May I approach the witness? THE COURT: Yeah. Go right ahead.
(Defendant’s exhibit marked, D-58-A through D-58-M.)
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) I want to show you what I have marked for purposes of this hearing as Defendant’s Exhibit 58-A through 58-M, and I would like you to see if you can identify these transcripts.
A. Yes, sir. I had an opportunity awhile ago to briefly look at it, and there are some of the transcripts of the grand jury which was conducted in McLennan County on the Lucas matter.
Q. Are you aware that Ms. Sipes and I have previously filed a motion in this court requesting that certain transcripts be disclosed because they contain exculpatory material in this particular - -
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And we felt there was a particularized need for those materials? A. Yes, sir, I was aware of it.
Q. Are you aware that the pretrial transcripts in front of you are those transcripts which have been disclosed based upon our request? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you have personal knowledge of the matters within those Defendant’s Exhibits 58-A through 58-M, do you not? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Based upon your personal knowledge of those matters, are you convinced that such contain exculpatory matters as to Lucas’ involvement in homicides he had confessed to? A. Yes, I do.
MR. JEWKES: Objection. I’m objecting on the grounds, first of all, that question calls for a self-serving response as it would be self-serving to Mr. Lucas. Secondly, it calls for a response based upon hearsay contained in those grand jury transcripts.
THE COURT: Well, Mr. - - Let me say this to you. It’s my understanding that the grand jury was a grand jury called by him and he was the district
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attorney at the time. He was probably there. Ask him if he was there, Mr. Ponton.
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) Were you there during the testimony that is contained within Defendant’s Exhibits 58-A through 58-M, Mr. Feazell? A. Yes, sir.
MR. JEWKES: Your Honor, may I take the witness on voir dire, please, sir?
THE COURT: Yeah.
MR. JEWKES: With regard to those exhibits, may I approach the witness? THE COURT: Sure.
BY MR. JEWKES:
Q. Mr. Feazell, I show you the first transcript or the first part of a transcript which has been marked for identification purposes as Defendant’s Exhibit Number 58.
Without going into the substance of everything in this transcript, what is involved here? Is that the initial oath given to the grand jury or initial introduction?
Okay. Now, what was your question?
Q. With respect to that first transcript, does
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that appear to be an initial introduction to the McLennan County Grand Jury? A. No, sir.
Q. What is it? A. This is when we went before the judge and the foreman requested an extension of time because we didn’t have time to continue the investigation.
Q. You’re a lawyer, sir, are you not? A. Yes.
Q. Is that hearsay? A. Well, I was there.
Q. Did you say it? A. It says here, “Court and foreman.” Q. Is any part of that testimony yours, sir? A. Right here? Q. Yes, sir.
A. No, that’s the court and the foreman.
Q. It’s not yours, then it’s hearsay, is it not? A. Not necessarily. I think there are a lot of judges to rule on what hearsay is and under the new rules, I’m not about to say what I think it is.
Q. All right, sir. The second part of the transcript marked as number 2, Henry Lucas, does this appear to be the testimony of Henry Lucas? A. I haven’t read every word of it, but it does
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
appear to be, sir.
Q. I would ask you not to do that. Just does it appear to be the testimony of Henry Lucas? A. Yes, sir, it does, as I remember.
Q. What about the third transcript, Mr. Feazell? A. Sister Clemmie Schroeder, yes, sir.
Q. That would purport to be the testimony of Sister Clemmie Schroeder? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Is that hearsay? A. Well - -
MR. PONTON: Your Honor, I object to him asking an attorney to give a legal opinion as to a matter because I believe that’s improper to do so.
MR. JEWKES: All right, Your Honor, I’ll make it very short and very simple. The fourth transcript purports to be the testimony of Henry Lucas, which arguably could be admissible because it’s an admission against penal interest. However, number five being the same - -
MR. PONTON: I disagree with that contention, Mr. Jewkes, but - -
MR. JEWKES: The number six transcript is that of Chris Piazza, Your Honor, the prosecutor from Little Rock, Arkansas.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
MR. PONTON: Who testifies here by deposition.
MR. JEWKES: That is correct.
This transcript, Sister Clemmie Schroeder.
The next transcript marked for identification purposes or at least marked here as number seven, the testimony of Bob and Joyce Lemons from Lubbock, Texas.
The next transcript, number nine, that being the testimony of Carolyn Sue Huebner.
Transcript number 10, the testimony of Russell Hunt.
Transcript number 15, the testimony of Sergeant Bob Prince.
Transcript number 18, continued testimony of Sergeant Bob Prince.
THE COURT: What is the point?
MR. PONTON: I don’t know what his point is, Your Honor.
MR. JEWKES: The point being, Your Honor, this is hearsay. How can this witness testify as to what is in here if it’s hearsay? That’s what it is, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Well - -
MR. JEWKES: And what Mr. Ponton wants to do
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
Is tender through this witness all these grand jury transcripts, and it’s rank hearsay.
THE COURT: I don’t know what he wants to do, but that’s - -
MR. PONTON: That’s exactly what I intend to do, but I just - -
THE COURT: But I went back to the main question. I don’t even think the question reaches what you’re doing, you see, but maybe I misunderstood the question.
MR. JEWKES: All right. I’m, Your Honor, attempting to bring to the Court’s attention exactly what there transcripts are so that you will have a means by which to determine whether or not it’s admissible.
THE COURT: Well, but don’t you think that I ought to get to decide that when they are offered instead of deciding it without it being offered? I don’t know what he is doing.
MR. JEWKES: I understand - -
THE COURT: You see, what I’m saying is I don’t know what Mr. Ponton has been doing for three weeks. And now all of a sudden you expect me to know what he is doing. I have no idea.
MR. JEWKES: Well, Your Honor, what I will
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do is withdraw an objection until such time that Mr. Ponton makes the offer.
THE COURT: Sure. That’s what - - See, the question he asked, I don’t think - - Your answer is a good answer, but it doesn’t go to that question. In other words, you’re getting a little bit ahead of it.
MR. JEWKES: I’m going to sit down and be quiet.
THE COURT: That’s what I’m saying.
MR. JEWKES: We’ll see what Mr. Feazell has to say.
THE COURT: Go ahead, Mr. Ponton, with your question and then we will go from there.
BY MR. PONTON:
Q. I believe my question at the time before Mr. Jewkes took you on voir dire, District Attorney Feazell, was whether or not you were present when those proceedings took place? A. Yes, sir. A lot of the questions in there were asked by me.
Q. And were each of those witnesses sworn to tell the truth at the time they appeared before that grand jury?
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Yes, sir.
Q. And is it your opinion - - or not your opinion, but do you believe that those grand jury transcripts contain matters exculpatory of Mr. Lucas with the crime of which he is charged here in El Paso? A. Yes, sir, as it goes to the matter in which the task force was taking confessions, the manner in which he was giving confessions. I don’t know what it would do, if it has any relevance before a jury, but before a judge deciding voluntariness of a confession, I certainly think so.
Q. For instance, the - -
A. And there is other Brady material in here.
Q. For instance, under the totality of the circumstances test that is given to us by the Supreme Court of the United States to analyze the voluntariness of a confession, are there many items contained within Defendant’s Exhibit 58-A through 58-M that would go to the totality of the circumstances under which Mr. Lucas gave his confessions while he was with the task force, which confessions would include those given in the Librada Apodaca case?
A. Yes, sir.
MR. PONTON: At this time, Your Honor, I
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
Would move for the admission of Defendant’s Exhibits 58-A through 58-M.
THE COURT: Well - -
MR. JEWKES: Your Honor, the state objects on the grounds that other than the testimony of Henry Lucas before the grand jury, which arguably would be an admission against penal interest, he is the defendant in this case, the rest of that testimony comes from other witnesses such as Captain Prince, Bob and Joyce Lemons, Clemmie Schroeder, so on and so on. That is hearsay.
And under the new code of evidence, Texas Rules of Criminal Evidence, the only time that particular - - one of those transcripts would be admissible is if that witness - - for instance, of Clemmie Schroeder - - got on the stand and that transcript was used to either refresh her memory or to impeach her. But to do so in the manner Mr. Ponton is attempting to do right now is hearsay, and we object.
THE COURT: Well, let me suggest this to you, Mr. Jewkes. I agree with what you said with this exception. I don’t have any intention of allowing all those transcripts or whatever they are into this record.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
Now, I will do this. You get out or find out which parts of those records are exculpatory, which parts of those records would be discoverable under Brady and what parts of those records would exculpate Mr. Lucas that has to do with the suppression of this confession, and I will admit those. But I’m not going to admit them without first seeing them. I’m looking for exculpatory material that has to do with the suppression of a confession. I’m not looking for a bunch of words and language about what might have been. I want to know what it.
MR. PONTON: Yes, Your Honor.
THE COURT: And I know that 20 transcripts or however many there are, that’s too many. That’s too many words. That can’t all be exculpatory, so you get to the exculpatory part and I will look at that.
MR. PONTON: Yes, Your Honor.
May I approach the witness, Your Honor?
THE COURT: Yeah.
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) Defendant’s Exhibit 58-A, the - - that is the matters taken up with the foreman. Is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right. Is there anything exculpatory in
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Defendant’s Exhibit 58-A as to the totality of the circumstances under which Mr. Lucas gave this confession? A. No, sir, I don’t think so.
MR. PONTON: I withdraw 58-A.
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) 58-b. This is the testimony between - - you were present, Vic Feazell; Jim Mattox, the attorney general, was present and Eleanor Christopher and Steve Olson? A. And Guy Cox.
Q. And Guy Cox, Henry Lucas’ lawyer. Do you remember this transcript, Defendant’s 58-B? A. Transcript of Henry Lee Lucas, yes, sir.
Q. Do you feel that contains matters exculpatory as far as showing the totality of the circumstances under which Lucas gave this confession?
A. Yes, sir, I do.
Q. 58-B. 58-C is the - - an appearance by Mattox, you and Ed Butler, Lockhoof, Hodge, Olson, Christopher and some other persons.
Do you remember this one? That’s more of Mr. Lucas, isn’t it? A. Yes, sir, I do.
Q. Is that more from Mr. Lucas? A. Yes, sir.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
Q. Do you feel that’s exculpatory as to the totality of the circumstances under which Mr. Lucas gave his confession? A. Yes, sir.
Q. 58-C.
MR. JEWKES: Pardon me. May I address the Court? I was - - I didn’t hear everything that Mr. Feazell said about 58-C as to who testified.
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) Who testified? A. Henry Lee Lucas.
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) 58-D, do you know who testified here? A. Yes, sir, Sister Clemmie Schroeder.
Q. Do you remember her testimony before your grand jury?
A. Yes, sir, I do.
Q. Do you feel that her testimony shows the circumstances under which Mr. Lucas was confessing while he was with the task force and the totality of the circumstances under which he confessed to this crime here in El Paso? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And do you feel that was exculpatory?
A. Yes, sir, I do.
Q. All right. 58-D. Now, I want to show you
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Defendant’s Exhibit 58-D and I’ll ask if you can remember this testimony. Is that by Henry Lee Lucas? A. That is more of Henry Lee Lucas’.
Q. His own statement before the grand jury? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Exculpatory material as to his confessions? A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right. 58-F, I’ll ask if you can identify that testimony of Chris Piazza? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And he is the district attorney of Little Rock, Arkansas? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And do you feel that Mr. Piazza’s testimony before that grand jury has relevant matters there as to the manner in which Mr. Lucas confessed to the killings of the police chief’s son and in the other ways in which Mr. Lucas confessed while he was with the task force? A. The killing of the - - of the store clerk? Q. The killing of the store clerk by the police chief’s son?
A. I believe it was a trooper’s son.
Q. Trooper’s son?
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Yes, sir, it was definitely exculpatory.
Q. 58-F. I’ll show you what I’ll mark as Defendant’s Exhibit 58-G and ask if you can identify it? A. Yes, sir. This is the testimony of Bob and Joyce Lemons.
Q. Okay. And do you - -
THE COURT: Who? A. Bob and Joyce Lemons.
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) And are you aware that Bob Lemons testified in this proceeding? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you feel the testimony of Bob Lemons contains exculpatory matters as to Henry Lucas’ confessions while he was with the task force? A. Most definitely.
Q. Does it contain testimony regarding the manner in which Henry Lucas was treated or rewarded while with the task force? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Let me show you what I’ll mark - -
THE COURT: Mr. Ponton, is that any different that I’ve already heard?
MR. PONTON: No, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Well, I don’t need to go over
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
that again, do I?
MR. PONTON: Well - -
THE COURT: I have already heard it once.
MR. PONTON: His wife testifies there, Your Honor, and she did not testify in this proceeding.
THE COURT: Does she have anything to tell us that he didn’t? MR. PONTON: Do you want to - -
THE COURT: No, I’m asking you.
MR. PONTON: I believe she would, Your Honor.
THE COURT: She was here with him. Why didn’t you call her to the stand? MR. PONTON: Because I did not want to try to cover any of the same ground twice Your Honor.
THE COURT: Well, you’re asking me to cover the same ground twice with this Mr. Lemons and Sister Clemmie Schroeder and all the - - these people. I don’t understand.
MR. PONTON: At this time, Your Honor, I withdraw Defendant’s Exhibit 58-G, the testimony of Bob and Joyce Lemons.
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) I would like to ask you, Mr. Feazell, to identify Defendant’s Exhibit 58-H?
A. Testimony of Carolyn Sue Huebner.
Q. And are you aware that she was a woman who
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approached the task force in 1984 regarding henry Lucas falsely confessing to crimes? A. Yes, sir, I am. I was in there during all of her testimony. I believe I asked her some questions. I think I remember asking her some questions. I interviewed her extensively.
Yeah, I did ask her some questions in the grand jury, also. And her testimony as far as the manner and means of taking confessions, false confessions is definitely, in my opinion, exculpatory.
Q. And I want to show you - -
THE COURT: Who is that woman? MR. PONTON: Carolyn Huebner, Your Honor.
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) Please tell the Court who Carolyn Huebner was, Mr. Feazell.
A. She worked for an agency like Child Find where you look for missing children, and part of her work came in contact with Bob and Joyce Lemons and came in contact with Henry Lucas trying to find children who may have been murdered, children who had been missing. And I believe she worked out of San Antonio, if I remember right.
And she befriended herself with the task force in Georgetown, spend a lot of time there with them and with Lucas trying to work on her project in
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Identifying these missing children to find out if they were dead or not. And when she began to question early on the validity of Lucas’ confessions, she was - - all of a sudden was thrown out of the task force offices and not allowed to come back.
THE COURT: I’ll take it up for the purpose of this hearing.
She was a pretty stout witness.
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) Mr. Feazell, let me show you what I have marked as Defendant’s Exhibit 58-I, the testimony of Russell Hunt. Do you recall that testimony? A. Yes, sir, I do.
Q. And who was Russell Hunt? A. Russ Hunt is a defense attorney in Waco, Texas. He had defended David Wayne Spence in the capital murder trial concerning the Lake Waco triple murders.
Q. Did he testify regarding someone else committing a murder Lucas was charged with? A. He testified that he had had an appointment - - and I’m testifying here just from my memory - - that he had had an appointment arranged to go down and see Lucas after Spence was convicted, I believe, yeah, it was after Spence was convicted to
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See if he could get Lucas to confess to killing the three kids at the lake in an effort to get this convicted murderer Spence off.
Q. He doesn’t necessarily talk about the manner that Henry Lucas gave confessions, does he? A. Not really. There is probably some doubt as to whether - -
MR. PONTON: At this time I would withdraw Defendant’s Exhibit 58-1.
Except - - Let me point out the reason that I felt that it was exculpatory as to manner and means is because we were the investigating and the prosecuting agency on the David Wayne Spence case, and we were never notified by the task force that they were going to allow a defense attorney to come down and question Lucas about a case we had already prosecuted, solved - - solved and prosecuted to conclusion.
And there is some reference to that in Bob Prince’s testimony where he told me that he wasn’t going to tell me that Russ Hunt was going to come down there - - Now, and I’m testifying just from memory and it’s been two years. I’m paraphrasing, but it was something to that effect.
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) Let me show you what is
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
Defendant’s exhibit 58-J, which is the testimony of Bob Prince before your grand jury, and can you can tell me whether he has any testimony in Exhibit 58-J that is exculpatory of this defendant and sheds light on the totality of the circumstances under which Mr. Lucas was pressured to give confessions by the task force? A. I believe it sheds light on it, yes, sir.
Q. Do you feel it’s exculpatory as to this defendant? A. I believe taken in light of other evidence that it is exculpatory, yes, sir.
Q. And I’ll ask you to look at - - Is Exhibit 58-K a continuation of Bob Prince’s testimony? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And Exhibit 58-L, is that testimony from Sister Clemmie Schroeder? A. Continued testimony, yes, sir.
Q. And do you feel that this is exculpatory of this defendant? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And do you feel that 58-L sheds light on the totality of the circumstances under which he gave his confessions? A. Yes, sir, I do.
Page 3418
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
Q. And this is testimony from Parker McCullough. He’s an attorney who represented Henry Lucas in his orange socks capital murder trial? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And this is Exhibit 58-M. Do you feel that Parker McCullough’s testimony before your grand jury contains exculpatory material from Mr. Lucas and matters that would shed light on the totality of the circumstances under which he gave confessions? A. Most definitely.
MR. PONTON: At this time, Your Honor, I would reurge the admission of Defendant’s Exhibit 58-M, L - - K, L, H, F, E, D, C, and B because such matters were taken under oath by the witnesses and are exculpatory of this defendant and shed light on the totality of the circumstances, that Mr. Lucas gave confessions to this case involving Librada Apodaca here in El Paso.
MR. JEWKES: May I respond, Your Honor? THE COURT: Sure.
MR. JEWKES: I do have a question of the defense, Your Honor, and keeping the proper court.
With respect to Defense Exhibit Number 58-M,
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
Am I led to believe that Mr. Lucas is waiving any attorney-client privilege as it pertains to him and Parker McCullough as they raised last week> MR. PONTON: I will inquire from Mr. Lucas.
THE COURT: What’s that? MR. PONTON: I will inquire from Mr. Lucas, since the privilege is personal to him, if I could, Your Honor, in response to the prosecutor’s question.
(An off-the-record discussion was held.)
MR. PONTON: Your Honor, I will reserve the submission of 58-M at this time.
MR. JEWKES: All right, Your Honor. I’m sorry. I didn’t mean to interrupt. Is there anything further? MR. PONTON: I have nothing further regarding my proffer of Defendant’s Exhibit 58.
MR. JEWKES: Your Honor, I suspect I’m going to object to the admission of several of these transcripts. May I take the witness on voir dire? THE COURT: Sure.
MR. JEWKES: Thank you, May I approach the witness?
THE COURT: Yes.
Page 3420
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
BY MR. JEWKES:
Q. All right. With respect to 58-B, you testified that this is the testimony of Henry Lee Lucas. Is that correct? A. yes, sir.
Q. I’m sorry? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Pardon me. Where in here does Mr. Lucas talk about the El Paso case? A. I don’t know.
Q. Does he talk about the El Paso case anywhere in here? A. I don’t recall if he specifically mentions the El Paso case or not.
Q. He talks about other cases but not El Paso. Is that correct? A. He talks about the manner and means in which the confessions were extracted.
Q. We are talking about extraneous cases? A. No, we are talking about confessions in general, which probably include the El Paso case.
Q. You say, “probably.” Can you be specific?
A. Well, sir, I would say that it includes all the confessions because he tells about how they took
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
confessions from him, promises they made to him, things they said to him, reasons why he would confess to crimes he didn’t commit.
Q. Does he talk about Detective Benito Perez, Ed Uribe from El Paso? A. Not that I recall.
Q. What about in State’s Exhibit Number 58-C, which has been identified by you as a continuation of the testimony of Henry Lee Lucas, does he talk about Detective Perez or Ed Uribe in the El Paso case?
A. Not that I recall.
THE COURT: You know, Mr. Jewkes, would you accept this for an answer? And if you say no, then you go right ahead. But what I’m going to suggest is we take these transcripts that we have here, I’ll try to read them, and if I feel that there are exculpatory materials in them, then I will mark what that is. Then we will discuss that before we enter them into any record.
MR. JEWKES: All right, sir.
THE COURT: Now, will that satisfy you in any respect at all? Because the reason I’m doing that, we can spend two days, now, talking about these, reading them, seeing what they are. And it might be best if we did it that way. That way we can - - You
Page 3422
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
Know, I don’t know what could be in these particular records that I haven’t already heard.
Mr. Lucas has testified, Sister Clemmie has testified, the Lemons have testified, most of - - Bob Prince has testified. I mean, if there is something secret about these things that was not told in their testimony, then we are wasting our time. And - - You see where I’m going? MR. JEWKES: Yes.
THE COURT: I just - - I’m so tired of hearing the same thing over again, that I think it just doesn’t do us any good to keep hearing it.
MR. JEWKES: Your Honor, if I might be allowed to address the Court. I have no objections to your decision. I think the point that I’m trying to make by way of objection is, first of all, when we talk about Brady, the state recognizes it’s under a continuing duty under Brady, but Brady pertains to discovery. It does not pertain to the admissibility or inadmissibility.
THE COURT: I understand.
MR. JEWKES: Of any type of evidence before a tribunal.
THE COURT: Mr. Jewkes, I understand that.
MR. JEWKES: I know that, Your Honor, and
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
I’m just trying to make the record.
Secondly, Your Honor, you know, we are talking about - - the defense is talking about exculpatory materials. But how does exculpatory materials, if these are admissible, how does that help this Court determine whether or not Henry Lucas’ confession in El Paso is voluntary?
It is the state’s contention that not only is this hearsay because it pertains to witnesses - - And by the way, Your Honor, I defy the defense to show the Court where in Texas Rules of Criminal Evidence these transcripts from various witnesses who who are not on the witness stand at this time, where it’s admissible.
They can’t, Your Honor, because it is hearsay. It is rank hearsay. But more than that, these transcripts are not admissible because they are not relevant. How does this pertain to El Paso? Mr. Feazell making the blanket statement that some 12 or 13 transcripts contains exculpatory material,, that ain’t going to get it, Your honor, and I’ll shut up. That’s the point I’m trying to make, and that’s the basis of the state’s objection.
Page 3424
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CONTINUED DIRECT EXAMINATION:
BY MR. PONTON:
Q. Mr. Feazell, after examining the marked items within Defendant’s Exhibit 58, are there additional transcripts not present there before you that you feel are exculpatory as to this defendant and have relevance as to the totality of the circumstances under which Mr. Lucas gave his confessions? A. Yes, sir, I do.
Q. And those are transcripts of which witnesses that are contained with the McLennan County Grand Jury transcripts? A. Ranger Clayton Smith, and most definitely the testimony both times of Sheriff Jim Boutwell.
Q. Jim Boutwell, the sheriff of Williamson County, testified twice before your grand jury? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And his testimony and Clayton Smith’s testimony you feel should be discoverable because it’s Brady material and exculpatory? A. Considering the totality of the circumstances, the way in which confessions were taken and the way in which Mr. Lucas’ rights were violated after he was released from our grand jury,
Page 3425
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
yes, sir.
MR. JEWKES: Your Honor, it is the state’s contention that last testimony given by Mr. Feazell is an invasion of the province of this Court. How can Mr. Feazell be allowed to give his opinion as to whether or not it is exculpatory or inculpatory?
THE COURT: Well, what I don’t understand I show he can give you an opinion of how he was treated after he left there. I don’t - - Is he privy to that? MR. JEWKES: I agree with the Court.
A.Through the testimony, Your Honor, if you will read the grand jury testimony of Jim Boutwell’s second appearance before the grand jury, I believe it will become evident.
THE COURT: How can you testify today about the treatment tomorrow?
A.I’m talking about after we released Henry Lucas from our custody. Our grand jury continued and Sheriff Boutwell testified before our grand jury one more time after Mr. Lucas had been turned back over to Sheriff Boutwell.
MR. JEWKES: Your Honor, Henry Lucas had
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
Already confessed to the offenses in El Paso County before that ever came about. How is that relevant to this particular hearing? THE COURT: Well, it seems to me, Mr. Jewkes, this whole hearing, the relevance is - - is whether or not the confession in El Paso should be admitted. And we are basing that upon all these other confessions, whether or not they were properly taken and whether he was coerced into giving those confessions by some means.
And that’s what he is trying to show, that the El Paso confession was coerced or something happened to get that confession just as the others, and that’s what it’s about. That’s why I have been sitting here for four weeks. I think I understand that. But the problem that I’m having is is why I have to listen to it twice.
MR. JEWKES: Your Honor, let me suggest this to the Court respectfully. We have got a transcript from Sister Clemmie Schroeder. Clemmie Schroeder testified less than 45 minutes ago that she was never present when a confession was taken. How would a transcript from her have any bearing on the validity or the totality of the circumstances by which a confession was taken?
Page 3427
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
What about Chris Piazza? Was he present?
I can answer that.
MR. JEWKES: Was he present when the confessions were taken from Henry Lucas? What about Bob and Joyce Lemons? Were they present when confessions were taken from Henry Lee Lucas? I ask the Court about Russell Hunt, Mr. Lucas’ defense attorney. Was he present when confessions were taken from Henry Lee Lucas? You know, Your Honor, it’s an attempt to get - - and one other thing. Once again, how can the defense justify that it’s admissible under hearsay? They haven’t brought you any rules under the Texas Rules of Criminal Evidence whereas this sworn testimony is admissible.
THE COURT: Well, but I like you, Mr. Jewkes, the reason I’m going to look into it is because I want to get to the truth of this matter just like you do. And I don’t know what more he can tell us than we have already heard. We have heard almost four weeks of this. We have heard the same thing time and again that, you know, that he might have been coerced or he might have been given soda pops to confess.
But the problems that I have is is not the
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
Admissibility of this evidence as testimony before a jury but whether or not this testimony would help me in any way in making a decision as to whether or not this particular confession should be admitted, and that’s what Mr. Ponton is doing. He is having me now read these transcripts. You see, Mr. Ponton has put a great burden on this Court and on our district attorney and on the Texas Rangers and everybody in the state of Texas. And I assume we are going to have to assume the burden and see how it comes out. I don’t know.
But certainly when we have a man whose life you’re asking to be taken, then I think it behooves us to look into every facet of this case to find out whether or not this man’s confession ought to be entered into this record or ought to go before a jury or whether or not any of this testimony is admissible. We are saying we want this man’s life. And that’s the important thing to me and that ought to be the important thing to you. And I have appointed Ms. Sipes, and she appointed Mr. Ponton to help her.
And I realize the burden. They have got a tremendous burden because their burden is that they
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
Would like to save a life. Your burden is you want a life, if he has committed these crimes. And I know that you don’t want that life if there is any reason to believe that this man did not do it.
Now, that’s where we are coming from and that’s the reason for us sitting here and taking all this time. And I’m sorry we have to take the time, but we are going to take it. And I don’t think any of us want to do all of this, but we are going to have to because of the crimes that he is charged with and the consequences of that crime.
So with that, go ahead.
MR. PONTON: I pass the witness at this time, Your Honor.
MR. JEWKES: Your Honor, just for my understanding, where do we stand with respect to the transcripts? THE COURT: Well, I’m just going to go over them and see if there is anything in there that would help me in making my decision. And Mr. Jewkes, I guess you will just have to trust me to point out to you what things I might consider in this area.
As you have pointed out, I have already heard testimony from a good many of these people. I don’t know what else could be in there. I have heard
Page 3430
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
From Bob Prince. I think he testified for a couple of days here, quite a while. I don’t know if there was questions that could have been asked or should have been asked of him. Maybe they should have been asked at that time.
You see, I don’t - - I don’t know what is on there.
MR. JEWKES: All right, sir.
THE COURT: But I think that I have a duty to look.
MR. JEWKES: The reason that I was asking, Your Honor, is because - - and I just want to apprise the Court so that the Court understands. Because if they become admissible, I think we are probably going to require the need to cross-examine Mr. Feazell from the basis of some of - -
THE COURT: Well, we will bring him back. But, you know, the problem is - - Let’s do this. I won’t release him when he leaves here. We will just - - But when you say admissible, you see, what’s admissible at this hearing may not be admissible before a jury.
MR. JEWKES: Quite possible, Your Honor.
THE COURT: You know, there are lots of things when you’re before the Court that we can talk
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
About that we can’t talk about when a jury is present because of the rules. But there are some things that we can get into. This might be one of those areas.
As I say, I don’t know all that’s in these transcripts. You-all may. You know, I don’t know that it would make a whole lot of difference.
I really am trying to find out something about the confession in the Henry Lee Lucas case in El Paso, Texas. I haven’t heard ten words about that and I have been here for four weeks. I hear about confessions all over the United States, but I have very little about the confession here. And that’s where we are trying it. That’s what we are talking about, the confession that Henry Lee Lucas made concerning Mrs. Apodaca.
Now, that, if we could ever get to that, you would be surprised the interest that I would take in sitting here and listening to it. I would just kind of be overjoyed. I would sit up here and just listen and write notes and just really feel good about it. If we can ever get to that, it would just make me feel so good I don’t - - wouldn’t know how to express myself.
Page 3432
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
BY MR. JEWKES:
Q. Mr. Feazell, you were asked by Mr. Ponton a question concerning testimony of Parker McCullough, and I believe it was your testimony that Parker McCullough was one of the attorneys for Henry Lee Lucas. Is that correct? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And was Parker McCullough one of the appointed attorneys in the case that has commonly been referred to as orange socks? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And was Parker McCullough one of the appointed attorneys in the case that has commonly been referred to as orange socks? A. Yes, sir.
Q. At some point in time, it is obvious that Mr. McCullough appeared before a McLennan County Grand Jury?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Why did he come before the grand jury? A. To testify.
Q. Did he come under power of subpoena duces Tecum to bring certain items with him? A. I don’t remember.
Q. Did Parker McCullough turn certain items over to either yourself, a member of your staff, a
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
member of the attorney general’s office or to the grand jury? A. I do not remember.
MR. JEWKES: Your Honor, may I - -
If he did and we had copies of it, I’m sure that your investigators would have received it when they came to Waco, and I gave them everything that we had.
MR. JEWKES: May I approach the witness, Your Honor? THE COURT: Yes.
Q. (BY MR. JEWKES) Mr. Feazell, I show you ten items which have not been marked. However, they may be described as audiotape recordings that were turned over to the state of Texas, this district attorney’s office here by Attorney General Jim Mattox.
A. Uh-huh.
Q. I ask you if you recognize any or all of these ten items, sir? A. No, sir, I don’t.
Q. If I suggested to you that they purport to be taped conversations between Parker McCullough, Don Higginbotham and Henry Lee Lucas, would that refresh your memory in any manner? A. No, sir.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
MR. PONTON: Excuse me, Your Honor, but I need to object. But before I do, I need to take the witness on voir dire if I could, with Your Honor’s permission.
THE COURT: All right.
BY MR. PONTON:
Q. Mr. Feazell, is it your understanding that those are taped conversations between Mr. Lucas and his attorneys? A. I don’t have any understanding at this point of what they are.
Q. Are you aware that in this proceeding here in El Paso that Mr. Lucas has previously invoked his attorney-client privileges as to resisting the disclosure of any of the items contained within those tapes, and that further he said that he did not ever previously waive any rights he has to disclose those materials? A. I heard something about that a while ago.
MR. PONTON: Thank you.
THE COURT: Well, let me say this. I have never heard that. The first time I have heard it.
I heard it a while ago when you withdrew
Page 3435
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
Parker McCullough’s transcript.
THE COURT: Well, I know he withdrew the transcript, but I never heard him mention any tapes.
MR. PONTON: I believe these tapes, Your Honor, were the pre- - - the prior - - the subject of a prior attempt by the state to admit privileged attorney-client conversations into evidence.
THE COURT: You know - -
MR. PONTON: The same tapes that I believe Mr. Jewkes is referring to, Your Honor.
THE COURT: What I don’t understand and maybe it’s none of my business. What is the world is the state of Texas doing with confidential matters between Mr. Lucas and his lawyers? How did they - - How do they come about getting conversations between Mr. Lucas and one of his lawyers that you’re claiming confidential now, but evidently somebody released those tapes to somebody? And maybe they are public. I don’t know, Mr. Ponton. But I can’t - - it just strikes me as being the weirdest set of circumstances that I have ever run into where an attorney will just come out and give conversations to the other side when you have an attorney-client privilege.
That’s what I - - See, that doesn’t compute
Page 3436
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
or it doesn’t register with me. I don’t understand that.
MR. PONTON: I agree that it seems quite unusual to me, too, Your Honor, and that’s why Ms. Sipes and I have previously told the Court that Mr. Lucas continues to invoke his privilege as to those conversations. And that’s all we can do at this time.
THE COURT: Go ahead, Mr. Jewkes. I’m sorry. I just - -
MR. JEWKES: No problem.
THE COURT: You know, I don’t - - I really - - You know, that kind of gets you right where you live. I don’t understand it.
MR. JEWKES: Your Honor, at this time I would ask the defense if I could make use of Defense Exhibit Number 58-M, which purports to be the testimony of Parker McCullough, the testimony before the McLennan County Grand Jury.
MS. SIPES: I am examining at this time, Your Honor, to see whether it should be admitted. It appears upon - - just upon a cursory examination that Parker McCullough testified without a waiver from the client Henry Lucas and that he revealed several - - the contents of several conversations that he had with Mr. Lucas without Mr. Lucas’ permission.
Page 3437
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
And I would ask at this time that the district attorney’s office not be allowed to look at this and also that the tapes which Mr. Jewkes just referred to be handed over to me or to the Court’s bailiff and any other transcriptions which you might have of those tapes be turned over, any reference to those tapes be turned over immediately to the defendant.
THE COURT: Who were those tapes originally turned over to? Who was this evidence turned over to?
MR. JEWKES: James Mattox, the attorney general of the state of Texas.
THE COURT: And am I to believe that Mr. Mattox published this material in this booklet he sent out? MR. JEWKES: Your Honor, quite honestly, I have not been through the entire attorney general’s report. Whether or not the information contained in those tapes were publicly disseminated, I can’t say.
But I can set the record straight for the Court. First of all, I have listened to every one of those tape recordings. I have had transcripts prepared of some of those tape recordings and I have read the recorded testimony of Parker McCullough when he appeared before the McLennan County Grand Jury.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
Now, Parker McCullough’s testimony was turned over to the Court by myself. It’s back there in the closet. We can go back and get it.
THE COURT: Well, I - -
MR. JEWKES: In the interest of time, I was asking if I could borrow the defense copy so we don’t have to delay these proceedings. But, you know, I have read everything that was said or at least everything recorded before the McLennan County Grand Jury.
I am not at this time attempting to tender into evidence the testimony of Parker McCullough. I would ask to use it in front of Mr. Feazell to let him see if he can identify certain things.
MS. SIPES: Your Honor, I have read the transcript.
THE COURT: Well, I’m going to read it tonight. We will talk about it tomorrow.
MS. SIPES: Your Honor - -
THE COURT: You know, I don’t understand how these - - how a lawyer can give all of these conversations over to the - -
MS. SIPES: I don’t, either, and I - -
THE COURT: - - to the other side and then you come in after the fact and say, well, we didn’t want
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
to do it.
MS. SIPES: Your Honor, I - -
THE COURT: That’s the problem with this case all along. This is a man who has confessed to hundreds of murders throughout this state and other states of the United States, and you know, the whole time has not had a lawyer.
He had a lawyer in Georgetown that defended him and he got convicted and got sentenced to the death penalty. And since that time, he has never had a lawyer until you-all showed up here or until he showed up here in El Paso. And since that time, he has never had a lawyer until you-all showed up here or until he showed up here in El Paso. And never did he have a lawyer anywhere, as I understand it. It’s the most amazing thing that I have ever seen in my life.
MS. SIPES: Your Honor, at this time - -
THE COURT: Now, that bothers me and I’m going to read Parker McCullough’s testimony. I can’t rule on it now until I read it.
MS. SIPES: Until you do rule on it, Your Honor, I would ask those transcriptions and tapes be turned over to the Court or to the defense.
I find it reprehensible that Mr. Jewkes would stand before the Court and state that he has read this transcript of Parker McCullough, which does not indicate that there is any waiver from Mr. Lucas,
Page 3440
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
And then knowingly listen to those tapes and to make transcriptions of them and even come into court and attempt to talk about them. I find it to be very reprehensible and I feel that Court will, too, once it sizes up the situation, and I’d ask that those things be turned over now.
THE COURT: See, I don’t find it reprehensible because I don’t know how he got them. Now do I know who gave them to him? MR. JEWKES: Your Honor - -
MS. SIPES: It doesn’t matter, Your Honor, how he got them.
THE COURT: Well, it does matter.
MS. SIPES: The fact is that - -
THE COURT: What happens if Mr. Lucas gave them to him? MS. SIPES: Mr. Lucas didn’t give them to him. We know that.
THE COURT: Well, how do I know that? MS. SIPES: Because I’m telling you that he didn’t and there is no evidence that he did. And that once - - once he saw that they were in his hands, whether it was by mistake or inadvertence or came into his hands through some ill advised action on behalf of an attorney or a grand jury or the - -
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
THE COURT: Well, Mr. Jewkes has something to say to this.
MR. JEWKES: Your Honor - -
THE COURT: Maybe you don’t understand how he got it. Maybe it’s his turn to tell us.
MS. SIPES: He has already told us.
MR. JEWKES: Your Honor, I can’t give you the exact month, but in the - - I believe the early part of 1986, I caused a subpoena - - Pardon me - - a subpoena duces Tecum to be issued and served upon the Attorney General Jim Mattox asking for any and all materials that they might have, whether it be exculpatory or inculpatory pertaining to the investigation of Henry Lee Lucas.
They complied with that subpoena. They sent us, Lord, I don’t know, many, many documented items and along with that those tapes, those ten tapes from Parker McCullough. We inquired of the attorney general’s office how they obtained those tapes and we were told - - if I’m not mistaken, I believe I was either told by Scott - - what’s Scott’s last name?
McGowan?
MR. JEWKES: McGowan - - I believe it was either Scott McGowan or Reed Lockhoof who instructed me that Parker McCullough had been subpoenaed by the
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
McLennan County Grand Jury to bring those tape recordings and that those tape recordings were turned over to the grand jury by Parker McCullough and that Henry Lucas waived any objection.
Is that in the transcript? Because I don’t think that’s right.
MR. JEWKES: No, sir.
THE COURT: Is that - -
I don’t think that’s right at all.
THE COURT: Let me ask you this question. I, of course, don’t know. But if indeed there is any truth to that, there ought to be a waiver in writing somewhere.
You know, the thing that just bothers me to no end, I don’t - - is that everybody - - and I’m sure this happened. Everybody throughout the state told Mr. Lucas what his rights are. I don’t think that right down up to today everybody tells him, “Lucas, you have got a right to a lawyer. You don’t have to say anything.”
And for almost two years they told him what his rights were and let him confess to hundreds of murders, capital murders and never once said, “Well, Mr. Lucas, we are going to call you in a lawyer, anyway. This is a capital case. You could lose your life.”
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
MR. Jewkes: your Honor - -
THE COURT: See, that’s my problem.
MR. JEWKES: Your Honor, I have reason to believe that Mr. Lucas since he has been in the state of Texas has had no less than 13 or 14 attorneys. He had attorneys in every one of the cases in which he either pled or was tried.
THE COURT: That’s right.
MR. JEWKES: Guy Cox was his attorney in Waco. Parker McCullough and Don Higginbotham were his attorneys - -
THE COURT: Those are the only two attorneys that I know of. They tried this one, this orange socks case, and this Cox fellow was in Waco. The others, as I understand, were called in just for the pleas.
MR. JEWKES: Henry Lucas was given the opportunity to have an attorney here in El Paso when he went before the El Paso grand jury. He waived any right to an attorney.
THE COURT: Well, sure. He has waived that right to hundreds of these cases. That’s what I said, Mr. Jewkes. He certainly has.
And, you know, it’s like the red flag in front of the bull. You know, you wave that flag,
Page 3444
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
That bull is going to charge. And if you wave it 100 times, the bull will probably charge you 100 times.
But that’s what’s happening. He has waived it every time and nobody, nobody has said, “Henry, you know, we are not letting you waive it not more. You’ve got to talk to a lawyer. We don’t care what you say, pal. It’s necessary. You talk to a lawyer, now. You kick him out.” See, that’s what I’m saying.
Here I have got a lawyer, now, turning over confidential information that I don’t know how it got there. I don’t know what authority he had to turn it over. I don’t know what the material is, you know.
I don’t - - You have the material. I don’t know that Ms. Sipes has ever had it. I don’t know that she has any of it, whether she has heard it.
MR. JEWKES: She does. She has some of it. Copies have been made of it.
THE COURT: Well, how about these tapes? MR. JEWKES: Yes, sir. Copies - -
THE COURT: She has those? MR. JEWKES: Some copies of those tapes have been made, yes, sir, and we intend to give them the rest of them. We are copying so many tapes, videotapes and audiotapes, but they are certainly welcome to have copies. There is no problem at all.
Page 3445
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
MS. SIPES: Your Honor, I have never heard the tapes and I don’t know that I have been - - They have always told us that we could everything in their file, but we have never seemed to have received everything in their file.
The transcript which I just gave the Court will reflect that Mr. - - right there on that page 2 reflects that Mr. Higginbotham was concerned with bringing his file to the McLennan County Grand Jury, and that in expressing that concern that he told the grand jury that he was requiring a waiver from Henry Lee Lucas but that he had had a conversation with Mr. Richardson of Tulsa, who was representing Mr. Lucas, and that Mr. Richardson, not Henry Lucas but Mr. Richardson had okayed him bringing the file to Waco, Texas.
There is - - In my inspection of that transcript, there is no written waiver by Henry Lucas not is there any indication or record that he ever gave a waiver of any sort to - - for these matters.
THE COURT: Well, I’m going to look to see if there is a waiver. Let’s try to find the waiver. In the meantime, mark those tapes so we know that we don’t have the tapes or turn them over to my bailiff or the Court Reporter, and then we will look at it.
Page 3446
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
I’m going to read this transcript tonight. Thank you, Mr. Ponton.
MR. JEWKES: Your Honor, may we also have our transcript of that so we can look it over tonight? THE COURT: Where is your transcript? I believe you have it locked up.
THE COURT: Do you have it, Bob? MR. DOW: What’s that, sir? THE COURT: Of this - -
MS. SIPES: Your Honor, we object to them having - -
THE COURT: All right. I won’t give it to them. I’ll read it. Mr. Ponton, you just get all the stuff that you think I ought to read.
MS. SIPES: They were going to file - -
THE COURT: Well, I don’t understand why - -
MS. SIPES: They were going to file a brief.
MR. JEWKES: Your Honor, in that case - -
THE COURT: We ought to get to the case in El Paso. We have been three weeks on other cases. Let’s get to this case, please.
MR. JEWKES: Your Honor, could we have the rest of these transcripts locked up for tonight?
THE COURT: Sure. We are going to lock up all of them.
Page 3447
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
Give the Court Reporter the tapes and let’s just mark those, put them in some place and - - I don’t know. I don’t understand.
(An evening recess was taken.)
Page 3448
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
IN THE DISTRICT COURT OF El PASO COUNTY, TEXAS
THE STATE OF TEXAS )
)
VS. ) CAUSE NO. 43314-120
)
HENRY LEE LUCAS )
OCTOBER 9, 1986
Page 3449
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
For the state: WILLIAM MOODY
First Assistant District Attorney
City-County Building
El Paso, TX 79901
RICHARD JEWKES
Assistant District Attorney
City-county Building
El Paso, TX 79901
CAROL PENNOCK
Assistant District Attorney
City-county Building
El Paso, TX 79901
For the Defendant: ROD PONTON
Attorney at Law
Suite 505
Caples Building
El Paso, TX 79901
DORIS SIPES
Attorney at Law
1011 North Mesa
El Paso, TX, 79901
Page 3450
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
WITNESSES PAGE
CLEMMIE SCHROEDER
Cross-Examination by Mr. Jewkes 3455
Redirect Examination by Mr. Ponton 3504
Recross-Examination by Mr. Jewkes 3530
WILLIAM DEAN SITMAN
Direct Examination by Mr. Ponton 3549
DR. STEVEN D. BENOLD
Direct Examination by Mr. Ponton 3557
Cross-Examination by Mr. Jewkes 3577
Redirect Examination by Mr. Ponton 3597
BEVERLY DEGROW
Direct Examination by Ms. Sipes 3602
Cross-Examination by Ms. Pennock 3630
Redirect Examination by Ms. Sipes 3651
Page 3451
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
WITNESSES PAGE
DR. STEVEN D. BENOLD
Direct Examination by Mr. Ponton 3557
Cross-Examination by Mr. Jewkes 3577
Redirect Examination by Mr. Ponton 3597
BEVERLY DEGROW
Direct Examination by Ms. Sipes 3602
Cross-Examination by Ms. Pennock 3630
Redirect Examination by Ms. Sipes 3651
CLEMMIE SCHROEDER
Cross-Examination by Mr. Jewkes 3455
Redirect Examination by Mr. Ponton 3504
Recross-Examination by Mr. Jewkes 3530
WILLIAM DEAN SITMAN
Direct Examination by Mr. Ponton 3549
Page 3452
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
EXHIBITS DESCRIPTION MARKED IDENTIFIED OFFERED REC’D
S-41 Autopsy
Report 3456 3456
S-42 Letter 3462 3462
S-43 Pen Packet 3541 3541
D-59 Records 3565 3565 3566 3566
Page 3453
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
THE STATE OF TEXAS )
)
VS. ) CAUSE NO. 43314-120
)
HENRY LEE LUCAS )
BE IT REMEMBERED that on the 9th day of October, 1986, beginning at 9:20 a.m., came on to be heard the continuation of pretrial motions in the above styled and numbered cause, before the HONORABLE BRUNSON MOORE, Judge Presiding in and for the 120th Judicial Court, and that the same was reported by Meryl Wersinger, Certified Shorthand Reported and Notary Public in and for County Court at Law Number Four, El Paso County, Texas, and that the following proceedings were had as follows, to-wit:
Page 3454
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
MR. PONTON: Your Honor, may I have the Court’s permission to visit with some witnesses during Ms. Schroeder’s cross-examination? Ms. Sipes will be here.
THE COURT: Sure.
THE COURT: Mr. Jewkes, you’re going to examine this young lady?
MR. JEWKES: Yes.
MR. PONTON: She is going to do that, Your Honor, and she will be here.
THE COURT: Go right ahead.
BY MR. JEWKES:
A.Good morning.
Q. How are you, ma’am? A. Fine. Thank you.
Q. Ms. Schroeder, yesterday afternoon we were - - we had discussed certain things concerning the murder of Henry Lucas’ mother, and you indicated to me that at various points in time Mr. Lucas had indicated to you that his mother died of a heart attack. Do you recall that? A. Yes. But not a normal heart attack but from his attack on her give it to her.
Page 3455
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
Q. Ms. Schroeder, you indicated to me that you had never seen an autopsy report pertaining to - -
A. I did not, yes, sir.
MR. JEWKES: May I approach the Court Reporter, Your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes, sir.
(State’s exhibit marked, S-41.)
MR. JEWKES: May I approach the witness, Your Honor? THE COURT: Yes, sir.
Q. (BY MR. JEWKES) Ms. Schroeder, I show you a three-page instrument which has been marked for identification purposes as State’s Exhibit Number 41 and which purports to be an autopsy report pertaining to a Mrs. Viola Lucas, age 74 at the time of death, 1-12 of 1960?
A. Yes.
Q. Does that appear to be what - -
A. Yes.
Q. Now, to yourself, silently, I would ask you to read that paragraph, please.
A. May I read this?
Q. Yes, ma’am.
A. Yes. Okay.
Q. Now, after having read the autopsy report
Page 3456
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
Pertaining to Viola Lucas, does the pathologist who performed the autopsy, does he give an opinion as to the cause of death of Mrs. Viola Lucas?
A.Yes.
Q. Was his opinion the primary cause of death a stab wound? A. Yes.
Q. And if you would, please, I would ask you to read - -
A. I did, yes.
Q. Does it indicate where that stab wound was?
A. In the neck area.
Q. Is there an indication that the stab wound was caused probably by a knife? A. Yes, an inch or two and a half inches.
Q. Therefore, it would appear based on the evidence that the cause of death of Henry Lucas’ mother was not caused by a heart attack but was rather a stab wound in the neck? A. Right.
Q. Ms. Schroeder, during direct examination by Mr. - - or pardon me - - by Ms. Sipes, there was testimony from you concerning certain contracts, book right contracts that had been entered into with Henry Lucas by various people. Do you recall that
Page 3457
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
Testimony?
A.Yes.
Q. And I believe that you - - you mentioned several authors. For instance, Hugh Aynesworth? A. Yes.
Q. And were you privy to the, let’s see, the negotiations that went on between Mr. Lucas and Mr. Aynesworth concerning book rights? A. That happened in Montaque before, you know, Henry came to Georgetown. I was aware of the contract after Henry came to Georgetown, after Johnny Dobbs made a contract - - Well, when I went to my attorney, my attorney had called Mr. Aynesworth and had gotten the contract either through the mail or other over the phone. But I myself was not present when any kind of contract was being made up between Henry and Mr. Aynesworth.
Q. I don’t intend to dwell on this too long.
A. No.
Q. I want to try to make it go as rapidly as possible and with a little luck, maybe you can be off the stand in 30 or 40 minutes.
With respect to the Aynesworth contract, how much was Henry Lucas to receive? A. Five percent.
Page 3458
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
Q. And that five percent was to go to Henry Lucas personally or to the New Life Ministry? A. I think it was supposed to go to a Becky Powell foundation. And when I found out it was only five percent, I called up Hugh and told him that he was taking advantage of Henry. And so then he said, “Well, I will give five percent to New Life Jail Ministry.”
Q. Now, with respect to the book that was to be written by Mr. Aynesworth - -
A. Yes.
Q. - - was that book to portray Mr. Lucas as a killer or perhaps the greatest hoaxer in American history? A. I do not know. I mean, I really do not know.
Q. Let’s talk about Max Call.
A. Yes.
Q. Do you recall approximately when Max Call came upon the scene, at least with regard to Henry Lucas? A. It was like a year before the book came out, so whenever that came out. I was the one that contacted Max Call and I remember he had already seen Henry a couple of times and I would be there. And I went to Cheektowaga in the summer, and then I came
Page 3459
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
Back and wintertime came and springtime came and the book was out, I think.
Q. And was that book, was it entitled, The Hand of Death?
A. Yes.
Q. Have you read the book? A. Yes - - No, not all of it. I skimmed through it. I can’t say I read all of it.
Q. Were you pleased with the book entitled, The Hand of Death?
A. No.
Q. Was there a certain amount of vulgarity in it? A. Yes. I refused to have my name - - I was supposed to be the co-author, and I refused to be the co-author.
Q. Was there a certain amount of, let’s say, gruesome detail in it? A. Yes.
Q. Was Henry Lucas pleased or displeased with it? A. Very displeased.
Q. Now, The Hand of Death, did it portray Henry Lucas in a favorable light? A. Not to me. I mean, it looked like a cheap
Page 3460
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
pornography book, but I never read a pornography book. But, I mean, I can’t even read the book.
Q. If you could imagine what pornography might be like, if you could ever imagine that.
A. Well, no.
Q. Ms. Schroeder, did The Hand of Death portray Henry Lucas as a killer?
A. Yes.
Q. And do you recall approximately when it hit the market? A. Right before - - Perhaps maybe a few weeks before the grand jury in Waco.
Q. So possibly - - We are talking about February or March of 1985? A. Yes.
Q. Because I believe Mr. Lucas first went before the grand jury or at least the grand jury investigation in Waco commenced in, I believe, April, the middle of April of 1985? A. Yes, it did.
Q. Of course, we all know that after Mr. Lucas left the grand jury or at least after the grand jury investigation was terminated, it was widely known that Henry Lucas had recanted all of his confessions? A. Yes.
Page 3461
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
Q. And I believe that grand jury ended in July of 1985? A. Okay.
Q. Therefore, in August of 1985, Mr. Lucas stood before the world and declared that he had never killed anyone? A. Except his mother.
Q. And you believed that at that time? A. Yes. And at this time.
Q. At this time.
MR. JEWKES: May I approach the Court Reporter, Your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
(State’s exhibit marked, S-42.)
MR. JEWKES: May I approach the witness, Your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
Q. (BY MR. JEWKES) Ms. Schroeder, I show you a two-page instrument which purports to be two letters, one letter written to Mr. William Moody, first assistant district attorney of El Paso County.
A. Um-hum.
Q. And dated September the 10th, 1986, and signed Max Call.
A. Um-hum.
Page 3462
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
Q. Attached to it I show you a second letter which purports to be a letter written by Henry Lucas dated August the 31st, 1985.
A. Yes.
Q. To yourself, silently, would you please read both letters? A. I can’t explain this.
Q. I’m sorry, ma’am? A. I can’t explain this.
Q. Before you explain the circumstances surrounding Mr. Lucas’ letter, very briefly would you summarize that letter for the Court so that the Court has some understanding of what we are talking about? A. Okay. The letter here is - - The letter here is showing that Henry is concerned that the book will not be published.
Q. Ms. Schroeder - -
A. - - or not published. I’m sorry.
Q. Every once in a while I’ll interrupt you, not to be rude but so that the Court understands.
A. Why don’t you tell what’s in the letter, then, because I go on so long. You - -
Q. I’m not on the witness stand, ma’am. That’s the only problem.
A. Oh.
Page 3463
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
Q. First of all, the letter you’re referring to is written by Henry Lucas? A. Yes, to, “Dear Max.”
Q. All right. Go ahead.
A. His concern is saying that Max is depriving his friend and Henry’s friend, who is me, a chance for the book to be sold.
And Henry is also stating that - - he is telling Max, “What you think you might be doing is best, but that they” - - he needs to think about the people and that there is such a thing about the people and that there is such a thing as The Hand of Death and it needs - - the people need to know the truth. “What I’m asking is you let the people decide what is true and what is not. Don’t judge the book for something that you know nothing about.” What Henry is saying here - - And I understand henry and his writing. His writing is not that if he is the killer, but there are cults and there are cult killings being done by a satanic cult.
And he is saying, “I am only telling you that if you let this book sell that there may be a big drop in the useless killing that takes place in the country. Not only would you be doing the country a service, but you would also find things out before you judge.”
Page 3464
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
And he is talking about that the people need to know about the mass cults. He was not indicating in this letter anywhere that he is a killer and that those murders are true.
Here he is - - Max Call is writing and stating that Henry was under the influence of drugs on many of his crimes and as investigators have stated, the family and everyone said that Henry did not drink anything but coffee and he is not a drug user. The drugs that were given would be from the hospital in Montaque and Bowie and different places.
“And we have law here that will be saying that he was drugged or he has a perfect recall,” and it wavers back and forth.
Q. Well, with respect to drugs on Mr. Call’s letter, I believe that Mr. Call indicated that Henry Lucas’ memory was clouded by drugs and because of this, Mr. Call included only those murders that Henry Lucas can clearly remember.
A. I was with Max. Max never was with Henry Lucas without me being there. And Max made up the stuff about the girl was picked up without the bra on and Henry would drive her and all that. All of that was not a true case. I was there.
Q. You were there when that was being explained?
Page 3465
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
When every - - When - - Everything Max wrote down, I was there. I heard everything. Max wrote a book. He put his thing together.
Q. Well, Ms. Schroeder - -
A. What case in the book is a true case? Did you read the book? Q. No, ma’am.
A. Then how can you ask questions about it? There is not a case there that you can point that is saying, now, this case happened blah, blah, blah. It’s all fictitious, whatever the word is.
Q. Fictitious? A. Yes. I can’t say it. I’m sorry.
Q. Well, my question is this. If you were present when all of this fictitious information was being given to Mr. Call, why did you allow Mr. Call to print that? Because you were one of the beneficiaries of the book rights. I mean, you were - -
A. Mr. - - I - - Max wrote the first chapter, the first two chapters and mailed them to me. I cried and told Henry I hated it.
So then Max came, I didn’t have the nerve enough to tell Max, “I hate your two chapters,” because he said he had worked on it two months.
And so Henry said, “Max, you got to do it
Page 3466
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
all over. Clemmie - - This isn’t the kind of book Clemmie wants.” I was the one that got Max to write the book.
So Max rewrote the first two chapters. I read them. They were as bad as the first one, but they were different. So I called him up and I said, “I won’t be the co-author of this book.” I did not see any more chapters until it was all typed, the whole book was typed. I called up Huntington House and I told them of all the lies in the book. I have a copy at home. I went through everything, in the margin correcting everything as it was and mailed it back to the publishing house, and the publishing house didn’t take one of my corrections and published the book.
Q. But, Ms. Schroeder, you did approve the first two chapters of the book? A. I never approved any of it, sir. I’m telling you I didn’t approve this. That’s why you don’t see my name on the book as co-author because I did not approve the book. It is not - - There - - It isn’t truth.
Max Call called me up and he said, “You no longer have to be a piano teacher and work with the terminally ill patients, and your daughter can go to
Page 3467
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
College and don’t have to work her way through if you just make one statement that that book is true.”
And I said, “Money would not cause me to lie,” and I will not sit here today and say that book is true. It is false.
Q. Did the New Life Ministry receive any of the proceeds from The Hand of Death? A. The New Life Jail Ministry received no money from The Hand of Death. I received $1,000 from the publisher and Max Call received $1,000 at the very beginning so we could talk on the phone. Max didn’t have any money. He was having a real financial problem, so I gave him $500 of my $1,000 and with the other $500 I paid bills. And that’s all I have seen from that book, and I don’t care to see any money because it’s dirty money.
Q. But you personally kept $500 from the proceeds of The Hand of Death. Is that correct?
A. I went and I bought televisions for the jail and a mixmaster and blankets and towels, and I can find receipts that I have for it, if you want to know where the money went.
Q. Not necessarily.
A. Okay.
Q. At any rate, just one more question
Page 3468
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
concerning this letter. This letter written by Henry Lucas on August the 31st of 1985 after he had recanted all his confessions, he is apparently upset with Mr. Call for publishing the book. Is that correct? A. He wanted - - Henry wanted me to get the money. I was supposed to receive royalties from the book even though when I stopped being the co-author - - and I cannot even tell you, but I think I was going to receive - - I don’t know.
Q. Pardon me, Ms. Schroeder, but the question was was Henry Lucas upset in this letter because the book was not published?
A. Yes, because he wanted me to have money. Henry was concerned about me.
Q. All right. And the book as it was written did portray his as a serial killer. Is that correct - - or as a killer? A. No. It portrays him as being a member of a cult, being a cult member, and the cult is going around being trained to enter into all kind of buildings, being able to go to Jim Jones and take suicide stuff to Jim Jones. It portrays a cult.
Q. Does that cult commit murders? A. And the cult commits murders. And this
Page 3469
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
cult, the rangers have denied there was an existence of The Hand of Death. There is not a big cult that trains people, thousands of people in Florida. The rangers would take the stand today and tell you that there is no Hand of Death. That is a fiction book.
Q. Now, yesterday you also testified about meeting an investigator and I believe his name was Frank? A. Yes.
Q. And you wanted to start an investigation concerning some children who were being held in Mexico. Is that correct? A. Yes.
Q. Do you recall Frank’s full name? A. No, but at home I have it, and his address.
Q. Do you know how he is employed? In other words, was he employed by a state government, a local police agency or a federal agency? A. All I know is that he was an investigator that went into old Mexico investigating narcotics. He wore jeans and a vest and he wasn’t in a - - like a police uniform. He was in plainclothes. But maybe he wears a uniform. I do not know.
Q. I believe you testified that once you found
Page 3470
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
out about the plight of these children who were being held against their will there in Mexico, you went to Henry Lucas with that information. Is that correct?
A.No. Henry Lucas came to me and told me about the kids being in Mexico. And when I met Frank and realized that he went into Mexico, I went to Frank and I told him what Henry told me about children being on ranches in Mexico, American children being sold in Mexico.
And Frank said, “Well, where was it?” And I said, “I don’t know.”
And he said, “Well, that’s really strange, because when I went there we just did a raid and there were American children at this ranch and I wondered why there were so many American children there.” And so I took him upstairs to see Henry. And I said, “Please come,” and they agreed that it was the same ranch.
Q. Who agreed? A. Frank asked Henry, “What ranch? Where was the ranch located?” And Henry said it was near blah, blah, blah, so many miles, blah, blah, blah.
And then Frank said, “Well, that sounds exactly like the ranch,” and then they described what
Page 3471
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
was on the ranch and it was the same ranch. And no one up to this day has done anything about these American children being in Mexico.
Q. Okay. Now, Ms. Schroeder, sometime after that you testified that Henry Lucas then denied to you that he had anything to do with the kidnapping of American children? A. Henry never said he kidnapped the American children. He said he saw them there. Then he said that the FBI would not do anything about it, they wouldn’t investigate and that he was going to say that he took the children there so that they would start investigating it because there is no way he could get them to investigate and his life wasn’t his own, anyway, and he was going to die and he wanted to save the children.
Q. Okay. Did I understand you to testify that you encouraged Henry Lucas to confessing that he had been involved or implicated in the kidnapping of those children? A. No. I said that I did not know that he told the FBI this. I did not know that he told the children - - the FBI that he took children to Mexico. I was not aware of that, because I knew that he said he saw the children there and he was telling Frank
Page 3472
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
About.
And then when I went there on a Sunday, Henry said, “I have to write down all of these kids that I kidnapped. Can you write while I tell you?”
And I sat there writing down all of - - the description of about I don’t know how many. You can ask him. But I would think probably about 12 or something, description of where he picked up children and took them.
And so I said - - He would say something, and I could see there was like the same month or the same date or something that he gave me. And I said, “Henry, over here you said this,” and I could pick that it was wrong. And I said, “I can’t believe that you kidnapped all of these kids.” And he said, “I didn’t.” And that’s when he told me.
And then I said, “Why would you do it?” And I don’t know what to do because I thought maybe he did kidnap the kids. I didn’t know. I thought, “I have all this information and everything. I don’t know.” And so it went on to the FBI, and I do not know if they investigated and if they found that any of those kids were truly kidnapped. I don’t know.
Page 3473
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
Q. Did you ever talk to any FBI agents about it? A. No, because they were busy and they just took it, and I just - - I just said, “I don’t know if these are right or not, but this is what he told me to write down.” And he said, “We will check it out.” So I left it up to them.
Q. So at that point in time, you didn’t know whether Henry Lucas was being truthful or was lying to you, do you? A. As I said yesterday, I never knew, that he he can lie. I never knew. He could lie. I have a tendency to believe people, and I just - - I - - and there are times, like I told you, that he lies. And I have caught him in lies. And so I did not know.
I had to make a choice. Do I - - Is he a kidnapper, is he not? I do not know. So I turned the thing in and left it to the FBI to decide.
Q. Ms. Schroeder, are you sometimes gullible? A. I told you I cannot tell when Henry lies, and I tend to believe people. But many times I can tell when a person does lie, but I cannot with Henry.
Q. Do you feel that sometimes you might be naïve to some things? A. Sheriff Boutwell would always say how naïve
Page 3474
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
I am. Do you think I am naïve?
Q. I don’t know.
A. I don’t know. Okay. I don’t know if I am naïve. I have been used, so I guess I am naïve. I have been used. I would like to think I have a little more between my ears, but perhaps I am naïve.
I have never been in a situation - - I do not live around dishonest people, a deceitful people, so I do not know how to deal with such matters.
Q. Now, one other thing about what we are talking about. You indicated that Frank, the investigator Frank lost a partner in Mexico, that he was killed? A. I don’t know it was - - if it was his partner, but with the firm or with the thing that he was in, at a ranch, yes, someone had gotten killed and he was beaten up and left for dead when one of his partners found him or something. So they said he no longer would be going into Mexico.
Q. And that terminated the investigation into the so-called missing children? A. No.
Q. To your knowledge? A. No. I don’t mean to mislead you. He was not going in looking for the children.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
He went in - - He was still working on the narcotics, on the narcotics when he was beaten to death, was not looking for children. It was with narcotics.
But he was - - he said about the children and everything that he just - - that he would not be going into Mexico and he could not spy out these other ranches. There are supposed to be three ranches there in Mexico with the children, and I do not know. Maybe the FBI are checking it. I do not know.
Q. All right. Just a few more questions, Ms. Schroeder.
First of all, when Henry Lucas came back from El Paso, Texas, after having confessed to the murder here, did he have any gifts with him? A. I do not remember. I know that he would always bring me something, so I do not remember.
Q. Did you turn over everything that Henry Lucas ever gave you to Mr. Lucas’ defense? A. No, because a lot of it was edible. Sometimes it would just be a candy bar or a bag of - - a large bag of peanuts or - - and sometimes it would be like little pens. I could not find all of the things.
Q. To the best - - Would it be fair to say to
Page 3476
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
The best of your recollection when Henry Lucas returned from El Paso, he had no gifts with him? A. No, sir, that would not be because he always brought me something. Sometimes it would be - - even like a rock or something that he would find laying on the ground, like some kind of coin or something he would find. But he always brought me something.
Q. You also told us that - - on direct examination that there came a point in time when you became very concerned about Mr. Lucas’ welfare when he first went to Waco. Do you recall that? A. His welfare? You mean in Waco, like what was happening? Yes, yes.
Q. You became so concerned that you went back to Georgetown and you turned to someone for advice, did you not? A. I did.
Q. And that person was Sheriff Jim Boutwell? A. Right.
Q. And you told Sheriff Boutwell that you were very concerned about Henry Lucas? A. Oh, yes. True.
Q. Based on that, Sheriff Boutwell did something, did he not? A. Yes.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
Q. And I ask you to recall a late-night meeting that was held at Sheriff Boutwell’s office and present at that meeting were certain officials from the Texas Department of Public Safety as well as certain members of the United States government. Is that correct? A. Yes.
Q. There were some FBI agents present, were there not? A. I can - - Colonel Jim Adams was there, Bob Prince, Clayton Smith, Jan Patterson, someone else with Jan, some people, investigators, the lawmen form California. The room was filled. I do not know - - There could have been some FBI people there. I do not know.
Q. Jan Patterson was an assistant United States attorney from San Antonio? A. Okay.
Q. Is that correct? A. I don’t know where she was from.
Q. And one of the things that concerned you was the fact that Henry Lucas had told you that people in Waco would not give him an attorney. Do you recall that? A. At that time - - At that time he did not have
Page 3478
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
An attorney.
Q. And the people that met with you that night in Sheriff Boutwell’s office, that all attempted to cooperate with you, did they not? A. Right.
Q. As a result of that, what happened? A. As a result of that, I think the following day the FBI went to see Henry. And that following morning, Henry had an attorney, Guy - - I don’t know his last name. Guy-something. And I think the FBI came.
Jan told me, “Don’t worry. We will take care of everything and we’ll,” I think she said, “have the FBI there in the morning.
Q. And od this came about because of the cooperation between the Texas Department of Public Safety and the United States attorney’s office. Would you agree with that? A. They wanted Henry out of El Paso - - I mean, out of Waco, back in Georgetown. They did not do all of that for me, if you are implying that they - - because I was a frantic woman and they did it for me, no. They wanted Henry back.
They did not want him to remain in Waco. They knew he was recanting and they did not want him
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
there recanting. They wanted him back on the task force to continue his confessing.
Q. And that’s what the people from the United States attorney’s office told you? A. No, that is what Sheriff Boutwell said. “We need to get him back here in the task force where he belongs.”
Q. Well, if that’s the case, I wonder why the United States attorney’s office got involved in that? Why would they care if Henry Lucas was confessing or not? A. I don’t know.
Q. Ms. Schroeder, have you and Henry - -
A. Well, I know the attorney general’s office, because Jim Mattox was in Waco.
Q. No, ma’am. There is a difference between the attorney general and the United States attorney’s office.
A. Oh. I’m sorry. I see.
Q. They are two separate agencies.
A. Okay.
Q. Did you and Henry Lucas ever plan to build a halfway house? A. Henry Lucas - - I have had a dream of always having a halfway house because there are so many
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
Prisoners when they get out they have no home to go because many of the families will reject them. And I have gone to halfway houses meeting prisoners when they got out to keep them going straight with the Lord, and when I would see the halfway houses and how they ran, I had a desire to have a halfway house on my mother’s river land.
And one day I shared that dream with Henry, and Henry said, “Some day I will build you that halfway house because someday I will have money from a book or a movie and I will get you your halfway house.”
Q. And I think all this is based on the premise that Mr. Lucas plans to overturn all of his convictions sometime. Is that correct? A. What do you mean, convictions? Q. Well, you’re aware that Mr. Lucas has been previously convicted of a number of crimes? A. Oh. I understand. I see what you’re saying now. When Henry said this, this was way back and Henry did not recant anything. And at that time I was thinking he was a serial killer.
So there was nothing, that I’m going to recant and build you a halfway house. Him being - - him saying building a halfway house did not indicate
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
With his own hands. It was with money - - with money that he would get from movies or plays or something.
Q. Now, when you were testifying on direct examination concerning the Apodaca case, that’s the case here in El Paso - -
A. Yes.
Q. - - you testified that you had talked to Mr. Lucas - -
A. Uh-huh.
Q. - - almost immediately after he came back from El Paso, is that correct, or sometime? A. Yes, yes.
Q. And Mr. Lucas described to you, in your words, the gruesome parts of the murder. Do you recall testifying to that? A. No. He described that a woman was chopped up with an axe and that she was robbed. And he could not understand. He did not - - I did not know chopped up how many times or anything like that.
Q. Okay.
A. And he never talked gruesome to me because I would put fingers in my ears.
Q. Because you didn’t want to hear it?
A. No.
Q. Did Mr. Lucas ever tell you how he knew
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
about the gruesome parts of the murder or the gruesome details? A. He just said she was chopped with an axe. I don’t know any gruesome details.
Q. And I believe you told us that Mr. Lucas never told you that he had seen photos of the crime scene. Do you remember testifying to that? A. No, I did not testify. He never said anything, that he didn’t see photos of the crime scene or photos of that. I don’t know if he did or not.
Q. So if I understand you correctly and please don’t let me misquote you, what you’re saying is that Mr. Lucas never told you one way or another as to whether or not he had seen crime scene photos regarding this murder here, the Apodaca murder? A. I do not - - I do not know if he did, if he saw photos. I know that he saw photos of all the cases. So if you brought the case to him, then you would have to say if you showed him photos. I don’t know.
Q. But at any rate, Mr. Lucas never said anything about photographs in the El Paso case?
A. No.
Q. You also told us in the fall of 1984 Mr.
Page 3483
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
Lucas was in Brownwood and he telephoned you? A. Brownwood, Woodfield, something with wood in it.
Q. Did he tell you that the following day he was supposed to go to El Paso? A. If my memory is correct, I believe so.
Q. And you testified the next day that you received another telephone call from Mr. Lucas and he was, in fact, in El Paso? A. And he was in El Paso, yes.
Q. I believe he told you that he was going to go before the grand jury? A. He - - I don’t know if it was the grand jury he was going to. Before a judge. Before a judge.
Q. You told us Mr. Lucas was concerned about this? A. Yes, that he was lied to.
Q. Did he tell you who lied to him? A. No, he did not.
Q. Did you ask him? A. No. I knew either the rangers or someone in El Paso, someone that he was with and had talked to him about this case had lied to him.
Q. Are you aware that on that occasion he did go before the grand jury?
Page 3484
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
Yes.
Q. And are you aware that when he went before an El Paso County grand jury that he confessed to the murder of Librada Apodaca? A. Yes.
Q. Are you aware that prior to that confession he was given a Miranda warning? Do you know what the Miranda warning is? A. No.
Q. He is given his rights.
A. Uh-huh.
Q. And are you aware that Mr. Moody, first assistant district attorney of this county, advised him that he had the right to have an attorney present and that he waived that right? A. I believe that because he said it wouldn’t do any good to have an attorney because the attorneys they would have would be attorneys that would cooperate all the time with what was going on.
He didn’t - - did not trust attorneys because he felt that they would do what the rangers wanted, I guess. That’s my opinion. I do not know.
Q. And, Ms. Schroeder, at one point in time in that telephone conversations, the second one from El Paso, Mr. Lucas told you - - And I wrote this down.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
He said he told you that they wouldn’t give him an attorney in El Paso. Do you remember that testimony? A. He - - Yes. I don’t know if I quoted him right, but I know that I said, “Well, Henry, if they lied to you and everything, then just tell your attorney about it,” you know.
And he said, “I don’t have an attorney.” And I said, “Why?” And he said, “Because they haven’t given me an attorney.” And so if you recall, I told him to do exactly what Clayton Smith would advise him to do, because Clayton would not mislead him. And so he did whatever Clayton told him to do and that Clayton told him, “Don’t ask for an attorney, deny an attorney, confess, go tell the judge you did it.” He did it.
Q. Let me ask you this. I’m going to ask you a couple questions and probably your best point of reference would be the grand jury investigation in Waco or when it started. All right? So we are talking about roughly April of 1985.
A. Okay.
Q. Now, you testified that at one point in time the state of Georgia was sending $1,700 a month to Georgetown to help keep Henry Lucas in custody, in
Page 3486
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
Other words.
A.I said that there was a rumor going around that the reason why we were able to be building the third story and have all the new patrol cars was because money was coming in from other places. And I cannot - - And it’s not that I’m trying to hide who said it, but - - because I can’t recall. But it was someone with a uniform on like one of the guards or jailers or something.
And I said, “What do you mean?” And he said, “Well, like Georgia is sending some money,” and I’m not sure if it was $1,700. I mean, I can’t recall that. I did not see a check. I cannot verify that that is a true statement. I’m saying rumors.
Q. Ms. Schroeder, when you got these rumors, when you heard this information, was it before Henry Lucas went to Waco or was it after that point in time when Mr. Lucas went to Waco? A. After.
Q. It was after? A. Uh-huh?
Q. How long after? A. Well, whenever - - we’d have to find out when they were building the third floor and everything,
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
you know.
Q. So it was after that point in time that Henry Lucas had recanted his confessions? A. Yes.
Q. Why in the world would the state of Georgia be sending money to Henry Lucas id he had recanted his confessions? A. Well, the money was not - - you know what - - you know how that is. It was like the money was - -
Q. I don’t know.
A. The money was coming in and it was being stacked up, I guess. I’m sure once he recanted and they knew he was going to death row, I mean, you and I both know Georgia wouldn’t be mailing $1,700 to him.
Q. That probably was not a factual rumor. Would you agree with me?
A. No, I won’t agree because I don’t know. Rumors, there is always something when smoke is going on, a fire somewhere.
Q. You were present when Bob Larson interviewed Henry Lucas. Correct? A. Which interview? Q. Let’s talk about the first interview.
A. Yes.
Q. That took place in the Georgetown jail?
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
Yes.
Q. Are you aware that Henry Lucas was interviewed by Bob Larson a second time in Waco? A. I was there.
Q. You were present? A. Yes.
Q. Where did that interview take place? A. Okay, the interview took place in the library.
Q. And at that point in time, who was present? A. Okay. When we got there, I’m not sure if Vic took us in or Truman Simmons, an investigator. But they led us to the library and Henry was sitting there in the library without a guard, and Kathy Larson and Bob Larson and myself walked in. And we were left alone in that - - in the library, and we were waiting for his attorney to come.
And Bob was going to do a tape show and they said, “Don’t start until Guy comes in.” And they told us that and they left.
Q. Ms. Schroeder, during that interview there were four people present. Correct?
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
Okay. You’re talking about two things that went on. If I may explain, okay?
Q. Okay.
A. In that library, when we were in that library - - And there wasn’t anyone from Waco inside that library except Henry, Kathy, myself, and Bob.
Q. Let me stop you. At this point in time, there were four people present. Correct? A. Right.
Q. There were no law enforcement officers near MR. Lucas? A. No.
Q. He was able to speak freely and voluntarily. Is that correct? A. He was.
Q. And Mr. Lucas did make some statements at that time, did he not? A. Yes, he did.
Q. Those statements were recorded by a tape recorder? A. Yes, they were. And you know Bob Larson?
A. I do.
Q. He is a reverend? A. Yes.
Q. He is an ordained minister?
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
Yes.
Q. Would you say he is a decent man? A. He’s a - - He - - I don’t want to say what I think because he deceived the Waco law people. He lied.
Q. He lied? A. Yes. I’m sorry, but he did.
Q. So the Reverend Bob Larson lied? A. May I explain? Q. Well, just answer my question first. Did he lie? A. His lie was like this. He told him that - - They told Henry that - -
Q. Ms. Schroeder, pardon me.
A. Yes, he lied.
Q. Now, how did he lie? A. He lied because he - - I have to explain so it will all make sense.
Q. Can you do it briefly? A. Yes.
Q. Okay.
A. Okay. I came in and Henry said, “How are you?”
And I said, “Oh, Henry,” I said, “the doctor wants to put me in the hospital.” And I said, “I
Page 3491
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
Can’t. I’m just - - I’m crying all the time.” And I said, “Everything is so bad.”
And he said, “Oh, no, you’re going to have a heart attack.” And I said, “No, no. No, it’s for rest.”
And I said, “And Bob wants to do this interview because Christian people are wanting to know what you are.” And I said, “They are so upset because you are recanting and you were the converted Christian killer.” And so Henry said, “I want to make a statement right now.” And he made a statement and Bob recorded it, that he was a killer.
And I started crying and I said, “Henry, don’t say that for me. You’re saying that for me. I am all right.” And I was crying. And I said, “Don’t say that.” And he said, “I am tired of this. I am - - You are not going to get sick over me. I have hurt too many people. I have hurt too many families and I just want to end it.” HE’s a giver-upper.
And so he says, “My life isn’t worth anything. Please. I want it over. I want it finished.”
Q. Pardon me, Ms. Schroeder.
Page 3492
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
This was on the tape.
Q. What you’re relating right now is on the tape? A. This is - - He said this before the tape, and he recanted.
Bob took the tape. I went to the restroom with Kathy. Bob took the tape, obviously, out of the tape recorder. We got back, and by that time Guy was there and Bob was fiddling with the tape player.
And Guy started - - sat and told Bob how he could start recording. Bob started recording the show. And Guy said, “What’s going in, Henry? Why are you answering like that?”
And Henry cried and he said, “This is the best.”
And Guy said, “No.” And he said, “Mr. Larson, I need that tape.”
And Bob said, “It’s my tape.” He said, “We’re going to - - I have to ask you to erase it.” And he erased it, but he never told the attorney he had this other tape.
And he said, “You’re not allowed to take any tapes out of here and you have to erase that because you are not allowed this. You cannot do this to my client because you-all came here and put pressure and,
Page 3493
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
Clemmie, you put pressure on him, too.” Q. Well, now, Ms. Schroeder, pardon me just a moment.
And so this is why I tell you Bob lied.
Q. Wait a minute. Just a minute. So we don’t get off the subject.
Ms. Schroeder, did Bob Larson put any pressure on Henry Lucas in your presence? A. No. I did.
Q. You did? A. I did. I did not put - - You have to know Henry. The pressure I put on was the pressure about how the Christian people would feel because he had - - Bob Larson had written this little book about how he was converted Christian.
Q. Ms. Schroeder, pardon me just a moment. You see, Mr. Ponton is going to have the opportunity to take you back on redirect, okay? And I’m going to try to cut you off, but sometimes you have a tendency to kind of sway into other areas. So let’s try to keep with the question.
A. I’m sorry.
Q. All right? And if Mr. Ponton feels that I have taken advantage of you, I’m sure that he will come back.
Page 3494
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
It is hard to answer a question, did Bob Larson lie.
Q. That’s not the question now.
A. Okay. But I’m not finished with that because I’m bothered with that.
Q. We will go back to it, I promise you.
The question is: Bob Larson did not apply pressure on Henry Lucas? A. No.
Q. And no peace officers were present when Henry Lucas made that confession. Correct? A. The pressure that was put on - -
Q. Ms. Schroeder, the question is: Were any peace officers present when Henry Lucas made that confession to Bob Larson? A. Yes. But your first question was did Bob Larson put pressure on Henry, and my thing is just his presence there, by going to have to confront the Christian people was pressure.
Because he knew - - Henry knew he would make Bob Larson out as a liar because Bob Larson told the people over the thing about how he was a converted Christian and now he would have to say he was not a killer. That would make Bob Larson a liar, and Henry doesn’t want to hurt people. Henry is a very giving,
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
caring person.
Q. As you testified before the Waco grand jury? A. I don’t remember what I testified at that time. I was - - I don’t remember.
Q. And in front of Bob Larson and you, Henry Lucas withdrew his recantation. Is that correct? A. Because of fear that I was going to have a heart attack.
Q. But did he do it? A. I ended up in the hospital. He did it, but he did it for me, not because it was truth. Henry would lie. He is a liar.
Q. Henry Lucas is a liar? A. He is a liar. He will lie. You know he is a liar.
Q. And, of course, that tape that was made by Bob Larson in April of 1985 will speak for itself, if the Court chooses to listen to it. Will you agree with that? A. No, it does not speak for itself. It speaks from a man I’m going to have a heart attack and that he is ruining the ministry for Bob Larson. It speaks of a man who would rather die that hurt someone else. He would give his life for another. He is not a killer.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
Q. I have just about three or four more questions.
Going back to your appearance before the Waco grand jury, you actually made two appearances, did you not? A. Yes.
Q. The first appearance was on April the 17th of 1985. Would you roughly agree with that? A. Yes.
Q. When you appeared before the grand jury, did you tell the members of the grand jury that Henry Lucas often told you that the Lord would lead him to crime scenes? A. Yes, he told me that.
Q. And did he tell you that the Lord would provide him with the specific details to certain crimes? A. Yes. Do you believe that the Lord his that? Q. Ma’am, it’s going to be up to 12 people to determine what they believe.
A. I don’t think the Lord did.
Q. You don’t think the Lord did? A. No.
Q. How do you think Mr. Lucas got specific details to crimes? A. He was fed them bit by bit. And his
Page 3497
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
Information that he gave is - - we have someone who - - every confession he has given has big loopholes in it. And if he wasn’t known as the big killer, if he was just a John Doe sitting there and if - - that confession would be - - would have been pitched out right away. But because they had created a monster, they are using his confessions.
Q. And going back to previous testimony that you gave some 15 minutes ago, however, Mr. Lucas never told you that he was given information, details about the El Paso crime, did he, and the question being did he or did he not ever tell you that? A. He told me in Waco that he was given information to all of the crimes and that he did not confess to all of them. They would not have him confess to all of the crimes because it would be too obvious. So it was - - they picked certain ones.
Q. On April the 17th of 1985, do you remember telling the members of the grand jury that at no time did you ever see any Texas Rangers discussing cases with Henry Lucas?
A. I did see him discussing cases.
Q. Okay. Ms. Schroeder, the question is did you tell - -
A. If it is recorder that I said, I did.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
Q. It is recorded, ma’am.
A. Okay. Then I said it. But it is hard to remember everything when I think back like the art lessons and Bob being there. I sat there. Everything was a big confession. And if you sit there and an attorney general is popping questions to you and Vic Feazell and everyone, it is very hard.
If I said it, I did not intentionally mean to lie. But if you want to perjure me or whatever, fine, if you think I’m a liar.
Q. No, ma’am, I’m - - What I’m asking is this: If you did tell the members of the Waco grand jury that you never saw Henry Lucas - - or that you never saw the Texas Rangers discussing cases with Henry Lucas, why did you tell them that if it wasn’t true? A. I’m telling you I don’t know why I said it. It is very hard to sit there when everybody - - I do not know why. I don’t even remember saying that.
It’s very obvious - - That someone has a task force and they have a person they are dealing with, it’s very obvious they would be discussing cases with him. So that was a very dumb thing for me to say.
If you go to McDonald’s, you’re going to order food, right? I mean, it’s just obvious that cases were discussed.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
If they didn’t give him the information, they could not - - Maybe they didn’t give him information, but cases discussed. It was a task force discussing cases and clearing up cases.
Q. Ms. Schroeder, what is obvious will be left up to the fact-finder, whether it be this Court of 12 people who sit in judgment of Henry Lucas.
What I want to know is what you did or did you not see. Did you ever see the Texas Rangers discussing details of cases with Henry Lucas? A. I did.
Q. You did? A. I did.
Q. So what you told the Waco grand jury was incorrect? A. Yes. I don’t recall saying it, but if I did, it was incorrect and I’m sorry.
Q. Well, why did you tell the grand jury that? A. I told you I don’t remember telling it. It wasn’t that I was trying to protect Henry. Obviously if I said that, it wasn’t that I was trying to help Henry and it wasn’t that I was trying to cover up for the rangers. I just couldn’t think, did I, did I, did I.
Q. All right. When you went before the grand
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
Jury, did you ever tell Vic Feazell or any members of his staff or any member of the attorney general’s office that Bob Larson had made the tape? A. Yes. Afterwards.
Q. Who did you talk to about it? A. I was crying to Vic about it, and I told him I felt responsible because I brought Bob Larson there and I felt responsible because I knew that he made that tape.
But when Guy told him to erase it, I did not know that it was a different tape, that he had a different tape. When he erased that, I assumed that that was that tape, although I knew when we got in the car that he had a tape. And so when he was fiddling with the tape recorder, obviously he had put it in his pocket.
Q. Ms. Schroeder, did you tell Vic Feazell about this before you testified before the grand jury or after? A. After.
Q. Why did you wait until after you had testified?
A. After - - What do you mean, after I testified on the grand jury?
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
Q. Why did you wait to give this information to Vic Feazell after you testified? Why didn’t you do it before you testified or why didn’t you tell the grand jury about it? A. I do not know. I don’t even know if the incident happened before the grand jury or after the grand jury. I mean, I am not aware when Bob Larson came. I mean, I do not know.
Q. One thing we know for sure is when you went before the Waco grand jury, you didn’t tell the grand jury, the members of the grand jury that Henry Lucas had withdrawn his recantation, did you? A. I do not know. You have to tell me if Bob Larson came before the grand jury or after the grand jury. I don’t know if I was even asked that.
Q. Okay. Ms. Schroeder, I believe the evidence will show that that tape recording was made before Henry Lucas - -
A. Well, everybody knew it because it was on the air, on the radio.
Q. I believe the evidence would further show that that tape recording was made before you appeared before the grand jury.
A. Okay. Well, then, I must have told, I mean, Vic before the grand jury.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
Q. But you didn’t testify to that before the grand jury, did you? A. I did not what? I’m telling you I do not remember. It was a very hard time. I ended up in the hospital. I do not remember what I testified. You would have to tell me.
Q. Did you have a nervous breakdown? A. I had a - - The doctor put me in and gave me sleeping pills, and I slept for 36 hours and came home and took the phone off the hook and got fine.
Q. Can you give us any explanation why you wouldn’t tell the grand jury about that particular tape recording made by Bob Larson to which Henry Lucas withdrew his recantation? A. I don’t remember if I told them about it, and that’s the truth. I do not remember.
Q. I have reviewed that transcript, ma’am, and it’s - - nowhere in there did you tell the grand jury about the recantation or the withdrawal of the recantation.
A. Did they ask me? Q. No, ma’am.
A. Well, then, I can’t. There is a lot of stuff I could tell you that I can’t because you aren’t asking me. If they would have asked me, I
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
Know I would have told the truth the best I could.
MR. JEWKES: May I just have a moment with co-counsel, Your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. JEWKES: We pass the witness, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Well, we are going to take a brief recess.
(A brief recess was taken.)
BY MR. PONTON:
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) Ms. Schroeder, the - - Mr. Jewkes asked you a little bit about the pressure put on Henry Lucas through you to have Mr. Lucas recant his recantations to Bob Larson. You remember that? That was the first meeting in Waco with Bob Larson and you and Henry.
A. Yes.
Q. The - - And it was your testimony that Henry Lucas, when he would - - When he saw you so upset, and I think you testified that you - - shortly thereafter that you went into the hospital, that he said something like his life wasn’t worth living and then told Bob Larson on this tape that he had killed all these people?
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
Yes.
Q. Even though he said - - he previously said he hadn’t killed them? A. Yes.
Q. Now, what I wanted to ask you a little bit about was the fact that you spend hundreds of thousands of hours with Henry Lucas ministering to him while he was there at the Georgetown jail.
A. Yes.
Q. And you became close friends with him? A. Yes.
Q. And you were able to get a good feeling for his personality and the kind of - - and the way he would react to pressure and the way he would react to persons asking him to do things, didn’t you? A. Yes.
Q. How would you describe Henry Lucas as far as a man who could withstand pressure or as a man who might bow in to pressure? Please explain that a little bit for me.
A. Henry would back down from any kind of an argument. He will not even argue with you. And - - For example, when we were in the office about the Conroe cases and I - - and Sheriff Boutwell said, “Well, if you don’t cooperate, we will send you on to death
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
row,” and I said, “But, Sheriff, he is cooperating,” and we started arguing, well, Henry just threw up his hands and he said, “Well, look, just - - I’ll sign whatever you want. Let’s just - - Let’s don’t - - I don’t want to hear - - I don’t want people getting upset.” Q. Would you - - Is it more like a passive type personality? A. Well, you mean is his mood generally the same? By passive what do you mean? Q. No. What I mean by passive, somebody who is not a fighter, somebody - -
Oh, right.
Q. - - someone who will go along with things? A. Yes, very definitely.
Q. And when I refer to somebody as being passive, would you consider Henry to be somebody who would do almost anything to get along with somebody or to please somebody? A. Yes.
Q. Was he somebody that felt like he had to please whoever he was dealing with? A. Yes. He never puts himself first and he has a camaraderie type personality.
Q. Did you observe Mr. Lucas develop a close
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
Friendship or a bond of trust between him and Bob Prince and Clayton Smith and Jim Boutwell? A. I saw - - I kept trying to get them to have a close friendship, but I felt like he and the sheriff had a close friendship, pretty close friendship. But he shied away from Bob and Clayton.
Q. Do you know why he shied away from the rangers? A. He didn’t trust them, I know. But when you were asking me why didn’t he trust them, there was just something. He just would just say, “Well, you just don’t know. You don’t understand. You don’t see them like I do,” you know. So I can’t - -
Q. When Henry Lucas told you that, did it appear that in his demeanor that he had something to make him think that there was - - that the rangers were trying to get him to do something or what - -
A. Yes.
Q. What was your observation of him at the time he was telling you that? A. I felt that, you know, it was kind of he was the prisoner and they were Gestapo type relationship. Although there would be kidding between them, it was all very surface.
Q. Did you get the feeling that they - - that
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
Henry Lucas had to do what they told him to do? A. Very definitely.
Q. And did you talk to Henry about times when he would do things at their request that he did not want to do? A. Yes.
Q. Would you and Henry talk about those things in the evenings after Henry Lucas may have gone out during the day and done something at the request of the Texas Rangers? A. Yes.
Q. Would you and Henry talk about the fact that he may have confessed or he may have gone out somewhere and not been happy about it? A. Yes.
Q. And was it your feeling at that time that he was doing this because he was told he had to do it by the rangers? A. He was made to feel he had no choice, so I don’t know if - - how - - A person a lot of times can be led without telling them. I mean, I don’t know. I wasn’t there to here, you know, but, yes, he felt under their control and that he wasn’t - - his life
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
was not his own.
Q. The - - During that period of time, did you ever hear Bob Prince or Clayton Smith or Jim Boutwell mention to Henry that if he stopped confessing he would go to death row? A. They would - - The best that I knew, that they would say, “Well, if you don’t cooperate, we will see the sheriff. We will have to talk to the sheriff about this.” And I felt like the reason why Henry felt a thing to the sheriff, he really felt the sheriff would decide when he would go to death row and not the rangers. And so it was like trying to also not upset the hand who will control his - -
Q. Destiny? A. Yes.
Q. How was it that you described Henry’s attitude toward death row, the big monster in his life?
A. Yes.
Q. That he felt that death row meant just that, death, that he would go there and be killed or executed?
A. Very definitely.
Q. During the period of time that you spent
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
With Henry Lucas at the Williamson County jail, did you and Henry discuss his upbringing, his childhood and some of the other - - and maybe where he lived or how he lived or the few years previous? A. Yes, yes.
Q. And in talking with him about that, did you get the idea and understanding from Henry Lucas that he had led a very rough life? A. A very tragic life.
Q. And he had a very tragic childhood? A. Terrible.
Q. And his mother - - His situation of his mother and stepfather and all, how would you describe that? A. One time I asked Henry, I said, “Well, tell me some of your fun times. Tell me some, you know, the best time like the best Christmas you ever had or the fun times.” And he said there were none. And he said, “One time some people from a church came and brought us a Christmas tree and some food, but we never celebrated Christmas.” And I asked him what was his favorite toy, and he had no toys. He tried to make some kind of riding scooter or something. And he had a pocket
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
Knife that he had stolen from someone when he was a little boy.
And he shared a story about how someone had given them this horse and this horse was expecting a colt, and he just loved that horse. He called it Spot. And his mother knew that the horse was, you know, his favorite thing.
And he came home and she was yelling that he didn’t walk up the creek about four miles up to get water and she asked why, and he said, “Because I was riding Spot.” And she went outside and she said, “Go put Spot away.” And he jumped - - He was getting ready to jump on Spot’s back and she took a gun and she shot Spot right there. And she said, “Now you won’t be bothered wasting your time with a dumb animal.” And Henry said that it hurt so bad because he was looking forward to that colt. And he started crying and his mother came and started beating him and said, “Now I don’t know what to do with this dumb horse. It’s all your fault.” And she said when his mother started beating him, he just stopped crying. And he just said, “I’ll never cry,” and he learned to shield himself and not to feel the pain.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
Q. Okay. Now, did you and Henry talk about the fact that he was often beaten by his mother? A. Yes. One time - - He never had shoes. And he - - someone saw him walking with - - in the snow, and this man picked him up and took him and bought him a pair of shoes. He did have hand-me-down shoes, but none fit at that time so he was barefooted. And his mother beat him because he was supposed to have taken the money and not the shoes.
Q. Now, later in his life would you describe - - Based on your understanding and conversation with Henry, that was a - - he lived practically like a drifter, from one job to another and never a solid home and things of that nature.
How would you describe his life, for instance, between his release from prison in 1975 and his rearrest in 1983? A. Struggling to just make ends meet.
Q. Did Henry talk to you about how he would sell scrap metal? A. Yes.
Q. And sell blood? A. Yes.
Q. And go out and do odd jobs just to get a few
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
dollars? A. Yes.
Q. And always had old cars that he would just patch together with baling wire, so to speak? A. He had promised Becky’s grandmother that he would take care of Becky and Frankie, and he worried very much just to try to have enough food for them.
Q. Did Henry describe for you the way he lived in the converted chicken coop at the House of Prayer in Montaque County? A. Yes.
Q. And that his kitchen was an open-air kitchen, that he had to walk across the road to get to it?
A. Yes. It was a community - - I’m not sure if you call it community, but it was - - he would have to go there to do the cooking and preparing the meals.
Q. The - - So all during that time that you became aware of Henry’s childhood and then his time after his release from prison, did he ever lead a comfortable life, to your knowledge? A. Never.
Q. Did he ever lead a live where he was not always worried about the next meal or the - -
A. That’s right.
Q. - - next dollar bill in his pocket?
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
That’s right.
Q. Now, please compare that to - - for the Judge between that previous life and the way Henry lived while you could observe him in the Williamson County jail there while Lucas was a member of the task force.
A. He had everything, anything he wanted, any type of food he wanted. He had - - He never had - - The sheriff gave him a bottle of Old Spice cologne for Christmas. The sheriff didn’t give anyone else a Christmas gift. And Henry never had cologne before. He - - That was the first time he had ever even had cologne.
And everything was - - Anything you were to give him, whenever you would give him anything, he would look around his cell and find something to give back to you. I mean, he would look for something that someone had mailed him. And if you give Henry something, he would turn around and give you a gift back.
Q. Was this a man who, to your knowledge, who had previously received gifts in his life - -
A. No.
Q. - - before he came to Georgetown?
A. No. He always felt that he had to give back and not just receive.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
Q. Based on your observations, was his life a lot more comfortable even in jail than it had been before he was in jail? A. Yes, he felt very comfortable. And his was the cell with the two windows. I mean, he felt like he was a blessed man.
Q. Based upon your many conversations with Mr. Lucas, did he ever talk to you about the fact that he never had any real close friends in his life? A. Right.
Q. Any close bonds with people? A. Right.
Q. And yet you observe the time that Mr. Lucas was at the Williamson County jail that he developed a very close bond with the sheriff? A. Yes.
Q. Jim Boutwell?
A. Yes.
Q. And they - - At least Henry considered Jim Boutwell his - - Tell me how - - Tell me the way that Henry considered Jim Boutwell.
A. A father image and a very close friend and someone that - - When they were going to do a cancer biopsy, he wanted him there at the hospital. And he wanted him to go on all of the trips.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
It was like he knew that the sheriff was going to control his life and if - - he was very anxious to please him. But there was a - - just a closeness there.
And I don’t know if it was out of fear. I don’t know if a person can feel close to someone out of fear or not. I don’t understand the closeness, but there was a closeness.
And Sheriff Boutwell was very loving to Henry and would tell him how - - what a wonderful job he was doing and how special he was. And I know this sounds very contradictory because it’s like you tell someone wonderful things, but you hold the threat of death row over them. And I know that sounds like make up your mind which way it was, but it was both ways.
Q. Now, did you know that Henry never really knew his father, his real father? A. That’s - - He didn’t know him, but he walked in to - - with his mother one time somewhere and she pointed out this man and she said, “That no-good blank, blank, blank man there is your father.” Q. Didn’t his stepfather not have any legs and - -
A. right.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
Q. And - -
A. His stepfather - -
Q. Wasn’t he an alcoholic?
A. His stepfather was an alcoholic, but what they had in common was that they were both beaten by - -
Q. Henry’s mother? A. The mother.
Q. So Henry’s mother would beat his stepfather? A. Right.
Q. Who didn’t have any legs and was an alcoholic? A. And to get away from her, he would scoot on his rear, and the father never would hit the mother back and Henry never resisted his mother or hit his mother back. The first time he ever took a stand against his mother was the time he killed her.
Q. And his mother would not only hit his stepfather who didn’t have any legs, but she would strike Henry, not only with her fists but with sticks and things of that nature when Henry was a small boy? A. With anything she could find.
Q. All right.
A. He has a scar from a two-by-four on the back of his head.
Q. That she struck him with?
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
Yes.
Q. Now, the friendship that Henry Lucas developed with Jim Boutwell, you said that Henry looked up to Jim Boutwell as a father figure? A. Yes.
Q. Could you explain that a little bit? I mean, was Henry looking to Jim Boutwell as the father that Henry never really had? A. I think so. I think so.
Q. And do you think in retrospect, looking back on your observation of that friendship, do you think Jim Boutwell was cultivating that in Henry or trying to encourage Henry to think that way? A. Yes. And I was so shocked, because in the newspaper - - he was always so loving to Henry. And when Henry left, in the newspaper he wrote how glad he was because every day he went home he had to take a shower he felt so dirty being around Henry.
And I just - - I couldn’t believe the ugly things he - - that was quoted in the newspaper that he said about Henry, because there was nothing but love shown to Henry. But with the discipline of, you know, you do it or you will get punished.
Q. Jim Boutwell wrote the forward to the book, The Hand of Death.
Page 3518
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
Yes.
Q. Have you read the forward? A. Yes, but I can’t recall everything in it.
Q. Are you aware that Jim Boutwell was paid money by the publisher, I believe $500 to write that foreward for Max Call’s book?
A. I understand it was $2,000.
Q. Okay. You understand that Jim Boutwell, the sheriff of Williamson County, was paid $2,000 by - -
A. Huntington House.
Q. Huntington House to write the foreward to this book, The Hand of Death, by Max Call? A. Yes.
Q. Now, here at page 8 of the forward, I want to read to you where Jim Boutwell says that he, quote, I have never lied to Henry and I think he has been honest with me, unquote.
Based upon your knowledge of what happened and your observations of what happened at the task force, is that a true statement by Jim Boutwell? Do you know if Jim Boutwell ever lied to Henry Lucas? A. Yes, he did lie to him.
Q. Do you think Jim Boutwell was lying to Henry
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
Lucas when he was developing this friendship, this father-son relationship with Henry Lucas? A. No, I don’t. I mean - - You mean - - Well, he had to be lying. Do you mean like saying you did a super job? I’m not sure what you mean.
Q. Well, do you think, looking back on the things that you read and seen, for instance, Jim Boutwell talking about how he had to take a shower every day because he felt so dirty after spending the day with Henry, do you think Jim Boutwell was being sincere at the time he was developing this close friendship and trust - -
A. No, no.
Q. - - and father-son relationship with Henry Lucas? A. No.
Q. Okay. I want to read to you another paragraph from this foreward and ask you, then, if you remember Jim Boutwell ever saying this in your presence while you were there at the task force headquarters. And this is from paragraph three of Jim Boutwell’s foreward in The Hand of Death at page 7 of the book.
“As the sheriff of Williamson County, Texas, and a former Texas Ranger, I can testify to the
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
Validity and importance of what is being accomplished by the task force. Henry killed police officers and without his confessions, many of these crimes will remain unsolved. His confession in the case of a West Virginia officer’s death not only changed the coroner’s verdict from suicide to murder but restored the officer’s pension and insurance to his widow and children. If nothing else is accomplished, this alone justifies the existence of the task force.” A. I heard him - -
Q. Did you - -
A. - - say that. Oh, yes.
Q. Was Jim Boutwell proud of the way that Henry Lucas had confessed to killing that police officer in West Virginia?
A. They got all the publicity they set out to get and it was a big victory for them.
Q. And did he talk about the victory party that they went to in West Virginia? A. He was saying what a wonderful time they had. Sheriff Boutwell, as far as I know, did not tell me about - - go into any kind of details about the party, no.
Q. I Want to read you just a little bit more, just another sentence here and ask you if you ever
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
Heard Jim Boutwell talk about the around the task force headquarters. This is at page 8 of the foreward.
“The task force was created under the authority and wisdom of Colonel Jim Adams, director of the Texas Department of Public Safety. Without his support, it could not function without such startling and far-reaching results. Henry, even though he is a convicted murder, is an official member of the task force. He has accepted the fact that he will be eventually executed for his crimes and it isn’t easy for him to relive the horror of his life, but he feels a moral obligation to cooperate.”
Now, that paragraph that I just read to you which was written by Jim Boutwell, did you ever hear him share those kind of thoughts with you and the other members or the other people there at the Williamson County jail? A. Yes. He always made Henry feel like to confess, what he was doing was morally right because he was helping families. “And for the first time in your life, Henry, you have a purpose in your life. And this is your purpose, and you’re doing good for the first time in your life and you’re a somebody.”
Q. Did he keep trying to emphasize that with
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
Henry, that Henry was his close friend, like his son, that Henry was somebody? A. Yes.
Q. That Henry was important? A. Yes.
Q. Did you see him almost daily stroking Henry’s ego like that trying to - -
A. Every time he was around Henry, he would give him good strokes. I don’t mean touching him. I mean - -
Q. With words? A. - - with good words.
Q. And yet as soon as Henry left Williamson County, you heard that he said they every day he would go home and take a shower because he felt so dirty about being around Henry? A. Right. And that he was glad he was out and out of his life.
Q. Am I incorrect or did you testify that when you were in Waco and Henry had been transferred to Waco to appear before the grand jury that Jim Boutwell came to Waco and asked Henry to return to the task force where Henry belonged? Was there something along that line? A. They would not let Jim Boutwell see him.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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And so Jim Boutwell asked if I could try to set it up so he could see Henry, and I said I would. And so I begged Vic, I said, “Vic, let the sheriff see Henry.” And that morning I went - - And so Vic said okay.
So I went to the sheriff and I told him, I said, “Okay, Vic,” I said - - I mean, “Sheriff,” I said, “Vic agreed.” And he said, “Well, I got this tape recorder right here in my pocket,” and he said, “we are going to take care of everything today. It’s going to be all over.” And so he went to the jail. And they - - When he started talking to Henry, they found the tape recorder in his pocket and they took it out. And so he didn’t have that. His plan that he wanted did not work.
So again he said, “I need to see Henry,” so again I went back to Vic and Vic said, “Look, the man came with a hidden, concealed tape recorder and you’re asking me to let him see - - to come see Henry again?”
And one time he said, “Okay, the sheriff could come.”
And so I said, “Sheriff,” I said, “you can come with me tonight.” And I said, “I’m going to see
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
Henry tonight and you can come.”
Q. This was in Waco? A. Uh-huh. He said, “Oh, well, I can’t.”
And I said, “But you wanted to see Henry so bad.” I said, you know, “Come on. Let’s go.”
And he said, “Well, my wife isn’t feeling good so I just - - I won’t be able to go and I don’t need to see him anymore.” Q. Was this after Henry Lucas had testified before the grand jury? A. I do not remember.
Q. Do you know if this was after Henry Lucas said that all his confessions given to Jim Boutwell of the Texas Ranger task force were false? A. Yes.
Q. Did you continue your jail ministry after Henry Lucas left Williamson County? A. For a short while.
Q. And did you continue - - For how long? A. Perhaps - - I’m not sure. Perhaps a couple of months.
Q. Did you - - Do you have a jail ministry there now? A. No.
Q. Do you go to the jail anymore now?
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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Not there.
Q. Have you and Jim Boutwell had a difference of opinion on your working at the jail? A. Yes.
Q. What is that, Ms. Schroeder? A. I was called into his office and he told me that he could no longer trust me because I had gone to the other side and that he was firing me.
And I said, “Well, I don’t know if the word is correct, fired, because you never paid me. But if you mean I can’t do charity work here, all right.” And then we started talking and he brought up orange socks. And he sat there and he started telling me, “Well, do you want the real truth about orange socks?”
And I said, “Yes.” And he said, “Henry was driving and Ottis sat in the back seat, and Ottis reached over,” and he started showing his hands. And he said, “And he strangled that woman and he just strangled her.”
And his eyes just got all glassy and he just started talking about it. And I said, “Ottis killed her,” and that Henry pulled the car over and checked to see if she was dead and then they dumped her.
And I said, “Sheriff Boutwell, that isn’t
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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What was said on the San Angelo stand.”
And he did like this, and he reached over and he dialed the head jailer and he said, “Sister Clemmie will be resuming her jail ministry and I want everyone to give her the top courtesy and give her the run of the jail seven days a week 24-hours a day.”
And about two weeks later, I went to the jail and I felt that - - to help my friend, Sharon Lomburg. And it - -
Q. She was also a Christian minister? A. At the jail. This is another thing. This is the woman that got kicked out of the jail ministry and Henry didn’t know about it for - - until sometime later. So about a year later when he found out that Sharon was kicked out by Sheriff Boutwell, he got Sheriff Boutwell to get Sharon back into the jail ministry. It was that power struggle again. So Sharon was back in the jail ministry.
Q. Okay.
A. And - -
Q. My question now is after that conversation you had with Jim Boutwell, did you continue to be around the jail and the courthouse there or did you not? A. Yes, I went back. And I wanted to share a
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particular thing happened on this night while - - I’m not in the jail ministry now.
Q. Well - -
A. Okay.
Q. The - -
A. Because of what I was accused of.
Q. Well, let me go on here.
A. Okay.
Q. Did you become aware of a meeting in Williamson County among law enforcement and Texas Rangers and district attorneys from across the state and maybe across the nation to have a conference to decide who would be the next one to prosecute Henry Lucas? A. This was held in Austin, Texas. It was DA”s from all over the country were gathered together to see who had the strongest case and evidence against Henry.
Q. And were you aware that if - - whether or not there were any representatives from the El Paso district attorney’s office at that meeting? A. I believe, yes, there were.
Q. And do you know if this prosecution right here that all of us are involved in is the next prosecution of Henry Lucas since that meeting?
Page 3528
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
Yes.
Q. As I close I want to ask you if you heard one more sentence from Jim Boutwell’s foreward. At page 9 of The Hand of Death: “Henry Lee Lucas is talking and law enforcement agencies all over the word are listening.” Did you ever hear Jim Boutwell talk about that while he was there as a fellow member of the Lucas task force?
A. Yes. Any time reporters came he would brag about Henry being the biggest killer in the history and in all the world and that he is right here in little old Georgetown, Texas, on the hill.
Q. Jim Boutwell - -
A. In his jail.
Q. Jim Boutwell was very proud of that, wasn’t he? A. Very much.
MR. PONTON: We pass the witness, Your Honor.
Page 3529
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
BY MR. JEWKES:
Q. Ms. Schroeder, we are not too far away from lunchtime so why don’t you and I cooperate with each other and we will try to be as brief - -
A. Good.
Q. - - and to the point as possible. Maybe we can get this done in about 10 or 15 minutes. I have just a few questions that I want to ask you on Recross-examination. My first question has to do with one of your last comments concerning this meeting that was held in Travis County.
Can you tell me when that meeting was held? Now, I’m talking about the meeting between law enforcement agencies and district attorneys from all over the United States.
A.I do not know if law enforcement was there or just district attorneys, but it was a meeting that was held by the district attorneys. And Bob Prince said - - told me, he said, “You know, there is not a piece of evidence that we have against Henry except for his confessions.” And he said, “But in El Paso, there is a crockpot.” And so that - - that they were looking for a case because they knew that orange socks case would not hold up and they wanted a strong
Page 3530
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
case.
And I can’t understand having all DA’s in a room and when they found out no one had anything, I cannot believe that the lawmen would say, “You mean, you don’t have any evidence, either,” and find something was definitely wrong.
Q. Ms. Schroeder, with all due respect, I think a lot of my questions can be answered with either a yes or a no answer. I’ll try to keep it that way.
A. I’m sorry.
Q. You apparently are of the understanding that someone from this office in El Paso was present at a meeting in Travis County with other district attorneys? A. I don’t know where, that somebody had something about the crockpot or something. I don’t know. It may be you-all just mailed something in. I do not know who came or if anyone from El Paso came.
I know DA”s from all over came gathering to see where the strangest case would be where there could be a conviction brought against Henry.
Q. Ms. Schroeder, who from this office would have gone to such a meeting, if such a meeting ever existed? Did Bob Prince ever tell you that? Did he give you any names?
Page 3531
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
No.
Q. What if I told you that I have no such knowledge of the meeting like that? What would you say to that? A. I don’t know. O know the meeting was held.
Q. What if I told you Ms. Pennock has no such knowledge of any meeting? A. I know a meeting was held.
Q. Were you there? A. No.
Q. But you were told about it and Mr. - - or Captain Prince told you about a crockpot? A. A crockpot. And he said they had - - And then later I heard him telling Nan Cuba that they had100 pieces of evidence in El Paso that would convict Henry Lucas.
Q. Did Captain Prince tell you that in this case there are certain eyewitnesses who can put Henry Lucas in El Paso on or about the time of the murder of Librada Apodaca? A. No.
Q. He didn’t tell you that? A. No.
Q. He held that back from you, apparently? A. Apparently, yes.
Page 3532
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
Q. Now, you were telling us a little episode about - -
A. Maybe about - - I’m sorry. Maybe that was part of the 100 pieces of evidence or something.
Q. Possibly. You were telling us an episode about Mr. Lucas’ childhood when he lost Spot, his favorite horse. Do you remember that? A. Uh-huh.
Q. Did Mr. Lucas tell you approximately how old he was when that episode occurred? A. I’m sure he did, but I don’t remember.
Q. Would he have been a young boy? A. Yes.
Q. There were other members of the family living with him at that time, were there not? A. No.
Q. No? A. No.
Q. Just he and his mother? A. He had a brother, Andrew, that was older that joined the Navy, but all of his - - the other sisters were - - none of them lived at home. They were grown and they were away. And I’m not sure at that time id Andrew was at home or not. Andrew is deceased now. Andrew could have been at home.
Page 3533
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
Q. Okay. Now, Ms. Schroeder, you have testified several times about the Conroe cases and you’re aware that there were three separate homicides in Conroe, Texas? A. Uh-huh.
Q. Have you ever been to Conroe? A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Then you’re aware that Conroe is the county east of Montaque County, Texas? A. I wasn’t aware of that.
Q. Well, if I suggested to you that Conroe lay in Montaque County, would you - -
A. Yes, of course. I just - - I don’t want - - I want to tell the truth. I wasn’t aware of that. Okay.
Q. I appreciate that. Now, you indicated on redirect examination that on the surface the Texas Rangers and Jim Boutwell were friendly with Henry Lucas, but that was only a surface reaction? A. No, I did not say that. I said that Henry did not trust them, but I felt there was a different relationship between Henry and the sheriff and Henry and the rangers, okay? And even though there were a lot of joking and kidding and ribbing, they would always rib and
Page 3534
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
Talk like, “Oh, you grouchy old thing. This is a Monday morning,” and Henry would answer something and there was always kidding, but it was very surface.
With Sheriff Boutwell and Henry, there was something deep, to Henry. Maybe not to the sheriff, but to Henry there was a deep feeling that Henry held towards Sheriff Boutwell.
Q. Okay. Well, let’s talk about the rangers, and I’m talking about Captain Prince and Ranger Clayton Smith.
On the surface were they friendly to Henry Lucas? A. Did that friendship extend beyond just a surface appearance, to your knowledge? Q. Extend to where? Going where? What?
A.Well, if I recall your testimony correctly, you said that on the surface the rangers were friendly to Henry, but I believe it was something to the effect that that’s where it stopped?
Well, if I recall your testimony correctly, you said that on the surface the rangers were friendly to Henry, but I believe it was something to the effect that that’s where it stopped?
I don’t know what the sheriff - - what the rangers felt towards Henry. I do not know where they were in their relationship. I’m saying Henry got along with them, but it was surface. Inwardly he mistrusted them.
Page 3535
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
Q. Were the rangers very businesslike with Henry Lucas? A. No.
Q. They were not businesslike? A. Always ribbing and joking.
Q. Always? A. Well, I’m sure they had serious moments. When I was around, they weren’t working. They were - - I’m sure when they were working - -
Q. And as you told us, you were never present when Henry Lucas was being interviewed by peace officers from other jurisdictions? A. No, but I was aware that he was working, looking at, going over cases and photos, and I walked in and see that when I would bring lunch to Henry.
Q. Now, you have told us several times that with respect to those three cases in Conroe, at one point in time Mr. Lucas did not want to cooperate. Is that correct?
A. Henry used that a lot of times to get what he wanted.
Q. But I’m talking about the Conroe cases.
A. That he wasn’t going to cooperate at that time?
Q. Yes.
Page 3536
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
No. The reason why he did this is because I convinced him that if he didn’t kill them that he - - that lying was as bad as murdering someone and God would spit him out of his mouth and that he could not lie. If he didn’t do it, he had to plead not guilty.
So he was not - - that came from me, why he pleaded not guilty to them.
Q. Okay. You see, Ms. Schroeder, what I’m getting at, I have written in my notes and I’m pretty sure I’m accurate that you testified less than 15 minutes ago that Sheriff Boutwell told Henry Lucas that he, Henry Lucas, would be sent to death row if he couldn’t cooperate in reference to the Conroe murders.
A. That was when he - - That incident happened when he came back from Conroe pleading not guilty.
First he went there and pleaded not guilty. Then the sheriff told him all of that while Henry sat there gripping his chair, and I started taking up for Henry and arguing with the rangers and the sheriff that, “You are not looking where he was and if he is saying he didn’t do it, why don’t you check out his story? Why don’t you check out his story?”
And we started arguing. And Henry just threw up his hands and said, “I’ll sign whatever.
Page 3537
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
Just forget it, Clemmie. Just forget it. I’ll sign. What do you want?”
And at that time, before that happened the sheriff said, “Henry, if you aren’t going to cooperate, we have no use for you here. You will be” - -
Q. And then what else did Sheriff Boutwell say? What did Sheriff Boutwell say that he would do if Henry Lucas did not cooperate? A. “We will have no use for you to remain here in Georgetown.” And it was obvious by that time - - I don’t know if he said go to death row, but it was spoken so many times he could have. If you have the tape of the conversation perhaps - - I don’t know what - -
Q. No, ma’am, that’s not the point. The point is you have testified twice in reference to the Conroe murders that if Henry Lucas didn’t cooperate he would go to death row.
A. Right.
MR. PONTON: Excuse me, Your Honor. I think that’s a mischaracterization of her testimony on redirect, that she was referring specifically on the Conroe murders when she said that Henry Lucas was told by Jim Boutwell that he would be sent to death row if he didn’t cooperate.
Page 3538
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
I believe my question and her answer was not in reference to any particular murder but in reference to the time that Henry Lucas was present at the task force. So I would object on the basis that it’s a mischaracterization of her testimony.
THE COURT: Well, I’m going to let him ask his questions and then you can correct that with the lady after he gets done.
MR. JEWKES: For simplicity’s sake, I’ll rephrase the question.
THE COURT: Go right ahead.
Q. (BY MR. JEWKES) Ms. Schroeder, I want you to think very carefully.
A. Okay.
Q. I’m talking about only the Conroe murders. All right? A. Uh-huh.
Q. Have you previously testified in this courtroom - -
A. Uh-huh.
Q. - - that Sheriff Boutwell - -
A. Uh-huh.
Q. - - threatened Henry Lucas - -
A. Uh-huh.
Q. - - that if he did not cooperate - -
Page 3539
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
Uh-huh.
Q. - - in the Conroe murder investigations - -
A. Uh-huh.
Q. - - that he would be sent to death row?
A. I believe that is correct. I know that he said if he does not cooperate they would have no use for him in Georgetown. And he could have said to death row. I do not know. Either way it meant death row because there is no other place for Henry but death row with a death sentence.
Q. Well, you’re aware that Henry Lucas did go to Conroe and entered pleas in two cases? A. All I’m aware is that when he came back he was praying asking God to forgive him. I don’t know how many - - if he confessed to all three of them or not. I’m not aware of how many he confessed, only that he had confessed and he was asking God’s forgiveness. And I assumed he confessed to all three of them.
Q. Okay.
MR. JEWKES: Your Honor, may I approach the Court Reporter, please?
THE COURT: Yes, sir.
Q. (BY MR. JEWKES) Ms. Schroeder, while we are doing this, are you aware that in Conroe that Mr.
Page 3540
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
Lucas was represented by an attorney? A. Yes, I was.
Q. And does the name William E. Hall, Jr., mean anything to you? A. No, but I know he had an attorney and his attorney got upset with Henry.
Q. And why did Mr. Lucas’ attorney in Conroe, Texas, get upset with Mr. Lucas? A. Because he - - Henry said he is going to plead guilty to them, anyway, and earlier he had pleaded not guilty. And Henry said, “It’s my life. I can do what I want,” something like that, and his attorney was upset.
(State’s exhibit marked, S-43.)
MR. JEWKES: Your Honor, may I approach the witness? THE COURT: You may.
Q. (BY MR. JEWKES) Ms. Schroeder, I show you a multi-page document marked for identification as State’s Exhibit 43 and which purports to be a penitentiary packet. Do you know what a penitentiary packet is? A. No, sir.
Q. A penitentiary packet is an official document that issues from the Texas Department of
Page 3541
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
Corrections.
Yes.
Q. And it records all judgments and sentences against any particular individual.
On page 1, does that purport to be an affidavit from Mr. S. o. Woods, who is the record clerk of the Texas Department of Corrections? A. Yes.
Q. And below that is there a second affidavit from Mr. Ralph A. Davis? A. Yes.
Q. Who holds himself out to be the presiding judge of Walker County? A. Yes, certified by Woods.
Q. Yes, ma’am. And below that is there a third affidavit from Mr. James D. Patton? A. Yes.
Q. Who holds himself out as the clerk of the county court of Walker County? A. Yes.
Q. Does this appear to be a certified document? A. To me, yes.
Q. Now, what I’d like to show you is what we commonly refer to as a judgment. All right?
A. Yes.
Page 3542
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
Q. The judgment issues from a court of law.
A. Yes.
Q. Does this judgment pertain to Henry Lee Lucas? A. Yes.
Q. In cause number 17001? A. Yes.
Q. In the 284th District Court of Montgomery County, Texas? A. Yes.
Q. And I show you a second judgment. Does that judgment pertain to Henry Lee Lucas? A. Yes.
Q. Cause number 17002? A. Uh-huh.
Q. Of the 284th District Court of Montgomery County, Texas? A. Yes.
Q. Does it show that Mr. Lucas was represented by Mr. William E. Hall, Jr? A. Yes.
Q. What I’m going to do, I’m going to step to this diagram pad. I’d like you to look at this and I ask you if a date appears - -
A. Yes.
Page 3543
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
Q. - - on this judgment and that judgment? A. Yes.
Q. So we have two separate judgments in Montgomery County, Texas, do we not?
A. Yes.
Q. All right, ma’am. What is the date of those two judgments? A. October 5th, 1984.
Q. All right, ma’am. Now, in both of those cases, Mr. Lucas was sentenced to something other than the death penalty. Would you agree? A. Yes.
Q. In other words, he received what we call a term of years? A. Yes.
Q. Do you agree with that? A. Yes.
Q. Now, we now look at another judgment and this judgment would purport to be out of what county? A. Tom Green County.
Q. Okay. And out of what court? A. 119th.
Q. Judicial District Court?
A. Yes.
Q. And would you read the cause number to the
Page 3544
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
Court Reporter, please? A. 13890-B.
Q. Okay. That’s B as in boy. Correct? A. Uh-huh.
Q. It’s styled the State of Texas versus whom? A. Henry Lee Lucas.
Q. All right. Now, we turn to the last part of that judgment and we get to what is commonly referred to as the sentence.
A. Uh-huh.
Q. And it states that the defendant, Henry Lucas, has been found guilty of what? A. The offense of capital murder.
Q. All right. And down here it explains what his sentence is. Is that correct? A. Uh-huh.
Q. What is that sentence? A. Death penalty assessed against him.
Q. Okay. And to your knowledge, how many death penalties are there against Mr. Lucas? A. One.
Q. Just one?
A. Well, I see there is two now.
Q. Two? A. Well, what - - Isn’t this a death penalty?
Page 3545
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
Q. I believe that would refer to what we commonly call the orange socks case.
A. This? Q. Yes.
A. Okay.
Q. And other than the orange socks case, to your knowledge is there any other death penalty against Mr. Lucas? A. Not that I’m aware of.
Q. And does a date appear on that sentence? A. May 28th.
Q. What year, ma’am? A. 1985.
Q. Okay. Now, my question to you is this: If Mr. Lucas, prior to going to Montgomery County to be involved in those cases, if he refused to cooperate, and that being sometime prior to October the 5th of 1984, how could Jim Boutwell hold a death penalty over his head?
MR. PONTON: Excuse me. Excuse me, Your Honor. At this time I would object before the witness answers on the basis that the prosecutor’s question is misleading to this witness because the judgment on the death penalty that he just had her read from the pen packet may be dated May of 1985,
Page 3546
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
But Mr. Jewkes did not tell the witness that Mr. Lucas had previously already been convicted in about March of 1984 for that orange socks case and that the judgment was entered much later.
And on that basis, I would object, on the basis that it’s misleading the witness.
THE COURT: Well, I’ll sustain the objection and let’s get all the evidence before the witness so she can make an - - give us an honest answer.
Sir, I gave you the best answer I could. I was in the room. I heard what I heard.
Now, I don’t know. I don’t know why the sheriff would say about death row if you don’t cooperate, but he said it. I don’t know. I don’t know when the dates - - I don’t know dates. I just know what I heard and what was said.
Q. (BY MR. JEWKES) The point being, Ms. Schroeder, is this: If Henry Lucas’ death penalty was not official until May the 28th of 1985, how would someone like Jim Boutwell who should have known that, how could he hold death row over the head of Henry Lucas?
A. I don’t know, but I just know he did. I don’t know. Maybe he knew - - he had already confessed to orange socks. I don’t know. Maybe the
Page 3547
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
Trial was already held. I don’t know. I mean, I don’t know. I know what I heard.
Q. And you’re positive that Jim Boutwell held that over Mr. Lucas’ head in October - - or prior to October of 1984?
A. Yes.
MR. JEWKES: Pass the witness.
MR. PONTON: We have no further questions of this witness, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Thank you, Ms. Schroeder. You may step down. Who will be your next witness? MR. PONTON: Bill Sitman, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Well, now, let me ask you something. Who is this? MR. PONTON: He is a former trusty of the Williamson County jail.
THE COURT: How long will he be? MR. PONTON: Brief.
THE COURT: Bring him in.
MR. PONTON: Brief. I think we will be done with him before lunch, Your Honor.
THE COURT: I doubt it, but bring him in.
Have a seat in the witness chair, please, sir. Raise your right hand.
Page 3548
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
THE COURT: All right. Well, it’s almost noon. We will be back at 1:30. Who is going to be your next witness, just for - -
MR. PONTON: I think Dr. - - a Dr. Benold from Williamson County.
THE COURT: All right.
(A lunch recess was taken.)
THE COURT: All right, sir, raise your right hand.
DR. STEVEN D. BENOLD,
Having been duly sworn by the Court to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, was examined and testified as follows:
BY MR. PONTON: Q. Would you please state your name.
A. Steven Douglas Benold.
Q. And how are you employed? THE COURT: Wait a minute. Spell that last name.
A. B, as in boy, E N O L D.
THE COURT: Thank you.
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) Sir, how are you employed?
Page 3557
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
I’m a family physician in the private practice of medicine.
Q. Where is your practice? A. In Georgetown, Texas.
Q. With whom do you practice?
A. I’m in a group of eight physicians counting myself. We have a clinic in Georgetown.
Q. Is your father one of your partners? A. Yes, he is.
Q. How long have you been practicing in Georgetown? A. I have been practicing there slightly over eight years. I joined the practice at the end of May of 1978.
Q. What is your educational background, Doctor? A. Graduated from Georgetown High School in 1967. Graduated cum laude from Rice University in Houston in 1971. Graduated from Southwestern Medical School in Dallas in 1975.
I completed a three-year family practice residency at John Peter Smith Hospital in Fort Worth, Texas, and finished that in the spring of 1978.
Q. Are you a licensed physician in the state of Texas? A. Yes, I am.
Page 3558
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
Q. What, if any, additional training have you had since the end of your three-year residency in family practice?
A. I’m board certified by the American Board of Family Practice which requires 50 hours of continuing medical education every year in addition to a recertification examination every six years. I was certified by the board in 1978 and recertified in 1984 and have maintained my continuing medical education each year.
Q. Doctor, do you have a practice that includes treating the medical needs of the inmates at the Williamson County jail? A. Yes, I have contract with the sheriff’s department of Williamson County whereby I am paid $300 per month to make periodic visits to the jail and attend to the medical problems of the inmates.
Q. And did you have such a contract and did you have such duties in 1984 and 1985 when Henry Lee Lucas was an inmate at the Williamson County jail? A. Yes, I did.
Q. When did Henry Lee Lucas first come to your attention as part of your duties at the jail? A. The first time that I officially saw Mr. Lucas as a patient - - and by this I mean when I
Page 3559
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
officially treated him in a physician/patient relationship - - was when he was brought to my office in January of 1984.
Q. And by whom was he brought to your office, do you recall? A. Sheriff’s deputies.
Q. And was it not your normal practice to treat inmates at the jail during your periodic visits to the jail rather than have the inmates brought to you? A. Yes, that would be customary.
Q. And why was Henry Lucas brought to you rather than them waiting until you went to the jail? A. I don’t know that exactly. I can surmise that it’s because the sheriff’s department wanted him to receive attention more rapidly.
Q. Did that also occur other times during the course of your being a doctor at the jail that Henry Lee Lucas’ medical needs had to be responded to more rapidly than other inmates’? A. Yes, that’s true.
Q. What other instances can you recall where that occurred? A. There was one other instance that I can recall and that’s when Mr. Lucas was complaining about stomach complaints, and he was seen by another
Page 3560
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
Physician other than myself because that physician could see him quicker than I could.
Q. Now, was it normal in the course of your being a jail physician there that many inmates might have stomach problems of a general nature, stomach complaints of a general nature? A. Yes.
Q. And what was your experience as far as dealing with those? What did you find would work well in that kind of situation for the general inmate population? A. In general, I believe that I can tell which conditions are acute and which conditions are subacute by eliciting a short history from the jailers. This, for example, if a patient is vomiting or is vomiting blood or has localized pain or pain associated with fever, that’s a more acute problem. And when an inmate would have a problem like that, I would generally request they be brought to the hospital emergency room to be seen immediately.
On the other hand, if the patient has no vomiting, has no diarrhea, is still eating, has no fever, then even though they may be complaining bitterly of stomach pain, I have found that’s of a subacute nature and I generally can delay seeing that
Page 3561
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
patient.
Q. Did you find during the course of your treating the inmates at the jail that there would be a lot of a lingering or inmates complained of physical symptoms that did not pan out? A. That’s usually the case.
Q. Was that the case with you? I mean, was that the case with your experience of treating the inmate population at the jail? A. The overall inmate population at the jail, yes.
Q. The time that Henry Lucas received the special treatment of being seen immediately by another physician, can you go into a little bit more detail on that particular incident, what brought it about and what was the followup procedure that was done because of Mr. Lucas’ complaint? A. Mr. Lucas was complaining of some type of stomach pain and disorder. I’m not sure exactly what the complaints were. Because I was unable to see him immediately, he was seen by another physician in Georgetown who asked to be brought to the Georgetown hospital. I believe but I am not sure that he was actually admitted to the hospital.
He had x-ray studies of his stomach and
Page 3562
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
Gallbladder which were normal. And he even had an endoscopic procedure, that is, an endoscope was lowered into his stomach and a direct visualization was made. That was made by another physician at the Georgetown hospital.
Q. And after those tests and after that admission to the hospital and after that specialized endoscopy, what was the result of that, do you recall? A. I do not know for sure because he was not my patient, but I believe the outcome was benign. I do not believe any acute ulcer or any significant pathology was discovered.
Q. Did you detect during the course of your treatment of the jail inmates in Williamson County the difference in the way that Henry Lee Lucas’ medical complaints of all the other jail inmates were handled? A. Yes.
Q. What would that difference be, Doctor? A. Mr. Lucas received special attention.
Q. And if Mr. Lucas had a medical complaint, would the jail personnel insure that someone responded to that complaint that very day of the complaint?
Page 3563
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
I can’t say for sure that very day, but I could say that they would have responded to his complaint more quickly than they would have the complaint of any other jail prisoner.
Q. In a situation to where you would normally receive a generalized complaint about a generalized stomachache, what would your - - and the patient was not indicating any kind of vomiting of blood or anything of that nature, what would be your normal response to that type of situation? A. I probably would simply tell the jail personnel that I would see that patient at the next time I made rounds at the jail, which would be within the next two or three days, and to put the patient on my patient list.
Q. And when Henry Lucas had that kind of generalized complaint about a generalized stomachache, he was taken out immediately to see another doctor and have a followup at a hospital? A. That’s correct.
Q. The first time that you actually entered into a doctor/patient relationship with Mr. Lucas would have been in January 1984? A. If I may refer to a photocopy of my office records, I saw Mr. Lucas on January the 26th, of 1984.
Page 3564
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
(Defendant’s exhibit marked, D-59.)
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) At this time I’ll mark that as Defendant’s Exhibit 59, and can you identify Defendant’s Exhibit 59, Doctor?
A. Yes.
Q. And what does Defendant’s Exhibit 59 consist of? A. This is a complete photostatic copy of all medical records in my possession at my office of treatment rendered to Mr. Henry Lee Lucas.
Q. And it just consists of a couple of pages of - - three or four pages of Xeroxed - - or three or four Xeroxed copies of some of your records in your office. Is that correct?
A. That’s correct.
Q. And are the originals of those documents in your office? A. Yes, they are.
Q. And can you identify each of those documents as being a true and correct copy of the documents you generated during the course of your treatment of Henry Lucas? A. Yes, these are true and correct copies.
Q. You’re the custodian of those records, are you not?
Page 3565
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
Yes, I am.
MR. PONTON: At this time we would move for the introduction of Defendant’s Exhibit 59 into evidence.
MR. JEWKES: Your Honor, may I approach the witness just to verify very quickly to see if that’s what we have?
THE COURT: Yes, sir.
(An off-the-record discussion was held.)
MR. JEWKES: No objection.
THE COURT: Be admitted.
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) What date do your notes reflect that you first saw Henry Lucas?
A. January 26th, 1984.
Q. What was the complaint or what was the reason that Mr. Lucas was brought to see you? A. He was having difficulty sleeping in the jail and was becoming increasingly nervous.
Q. And when you saw him, was this in your office?
A. It was in my office, yes.
Q. And he was brought to your office by deputy sheriffs of Williamson County? A. That’s correct.
Q. And what - - Did you examine Mr. Lucas? Page 3566
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
Yes, I did. I did not do a physical examination because he was not complaining of a physical complaint. I did what is called a mental status examination, which is a psychiatric type of examination.
Q. And can you briefly tell us the results of your mental status examination of Henry Lucas at that time? A. Okay. Mr. Lucas was oriented and he showed no evidence of what we call organic brain syndrome. This would be basic brain dysfunction such as in a senile person.
He was not psychotic, although he admitted to seeing things that weren’t there. He denied auditory hallucinations, and it was my impression that he was not psychotic at that point.
The patient did, however, have what we call flight of ideas or swarm of ideas in that he had difficulty keeping his thought process goal directed and that his speech would have appeared somewhat disjoined and uncoordinated.
The patient was examined as to possible causes of this, and he did admit that he drank in excess of 12 cups of coffee a day, which is a significant caffeine ingestion.
Page 3567
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
It was my impression after performing this brief mental status examination that Mr. Lucas at this time was not overtly psychotic. I was definitely aware of his previous diagnosis of schizophrenia. Because I was aware of the previous diagnosis, my provisional diagnosis at that time was a possible impending psychosis but most probably that the patient had what we call a schizophrenic effect personality disorder. In other words, the patient was not actually psychotic, he was not actually schizophrenic, but he appeared that way, had that type of personality.
Because of the possibility that frank psychosis could develop in a schizophrenic patient who lost sleep - - this is not uncommon - - I thought it prudent to administer medication to help his sleep.
Q. What was the medication that you prescribed to Mr. Lucas to help him sleep? A. It’s called chlorpromazine.
Q. Is that commonly known as Thorazine? A. Yes. Chlorpromazine is the generic term. Thorazine is the brand name for chlorpromazine by the Smith Klein French drug company.
Q. And at that time - - At that time did you direct that he be given chlorpromazine daily?
Page 3568
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
Yes.
Q. In what amount? A. 100 milligrams at bedtime.
Q. And do you know how long that regimen of Thorazine continued? A. I would have to look at the jail medicine records to be absolutely sure, but I do know that Mr. Lucas was still taking the Thorazine as of the time of his trial in San Angelo, Texas.
Q. And that trial, I believe the evidence will show, took place between February through April of 1984, if I’m - - and maybe up through part of May of 1984.
Why is that you know that that regimen continued through that trial, Doctor? A. The medication that is administered at the jail is my personal medication. Therefore, before the medication could be taken from the Williamson County jail to the San Angelo jail for administration to Mr. Lucas, the sheriff’s office requested my permission to remove the drug from the jail.
Q. How was the chlorpromazine kept at the Williamson County jail?
A. In a large bottle.
Q. And in what quantity would that be purchased?
Page 3569
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
for use at the jail? A. I would usually purchase it in bottles of 500.
Q. And where would those bottles be kept at the jail? A. Kept in a locked cabinet in the jailer’s office.
Q. Who would actually administer the chlorpromazine to Mr. Lucas? A. One of the sheriff’s deputies, one of the jailers.
Q. Who else was being administered chlorpromazine at that time, which would have been in 1984, that you’re aware of? A. I can’t state a given name. There is nearly always one or two inmates at the jail that are mental patients and are receiving chlorpromazine at one time or another.
Q. Do you recall if there were such mental patients at the jail during 1984? A. During 1984, yes, certainly.
Q. And would the administration of chlorpromazine to them have been in much the same way as you have described it would be given to Mr. Lucas? A. Yes, just the same.
Page 3570
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
Q. Would you make a notation or some verbal order to the jailer and that drug would then be administered by a jailer from the supply of Thorazine or chlorpromazine kept at the jail? A. That’s correct.
Q. How often would that supply of chlorpromazine have to be replaced at the jail, do you know? A. About every three years.
Q. Do you recall id it was replaced during 1984?
A. No, it was not. I remember that when they did take the chlorpromazine with them to San Angelo, there was not a great deal left and it’s even possible that all of the chlorpromazine was remaining was administered while Mr. Lucas was in San Angelo. I had to buy some new subsequent to that, so I imagine - - I’m not sure about this, but I would imagine late in 1984 I purchased more.
Q. For use at the jail? A. For use at the jail, yes.
Q. When you say you purchased it, you purchased it, but it is then - - the bottle of 500 would then been taken and kept at the jail? A. That’s correct.
Q. Do you know if Mr. Lucas continued to
Page 3571
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
receive any chlorpromazine after his orange socks trial? A. No, I do not.
Q. Did you see Mr. Lucas again after that initial visit regarding his mental status? A. No, I did not. I can recall one time I saw Mr. Lucas in regard to a dental infection.
Q. Yes.
A. He had a lot of trouble with his teeth. I do not ever again recall seeing him officially for a psychiatric examination.
Q. Do you recall anyone else prescribing chlorpromazine for Mr. Lucas after your initial prescribing of it in January of 1984? A. No, that would be my responsibility.
Q. Do you recall prescribing any other medication for Mr. Lucas during the time that he was present at the Williamson County jail? A. Mr. Lucas received another drug called Zantac, Z A N T A C< but I did not prescribe that drug. That drug was prescribed by Dr. McCullough, who treated Mr. Lucas for stomach pain. It’s also possible that maybe I prescribed antibiotic or a pain pill for Mr. Lucas for his dental infection.
Q. Could you describe for me, please, Doctor,
Page 3572
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
The indications to prescribe chlorpromazine and the effects of chlorpromazine? And if you need assistance in doing so, I have a copy of the 1982 Physician’s Desk Reference here, if you need to refer to that.
I don’t believe so.
Q. Okay. Please start with when it’s indicated, and then after that give me the results or the effects of it on an individual.
A. Chlorpromazine is predominately a major tranquilizer and therefore it is useful in agitated, disoriented, disturbed and psychotic patients. This is the premier indication for its use. Thorazine is also a sedative and it can be used any time a general sedative is necessary, for example, prior to surgery as a preop.
Chlorpromazine has antiemetic properties, antinausea, antivomiting, and it can be used, although it is not usually used, as an antiemetic. Chlorpromazine also can be used in patients that are having hiccups, intractable hiccups. It can be used for treatment for that.
It is also indicated in the treatment of malignant hypothermia to prevent shivering when the patient is placed in an ice bath.
Page 3573
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
Q. Okay.
A. So it has multiple indications. Used in a normal dose, Thorazine will cause sedation as its primary effect. It will also cause the patient to become more tranquil. It is a tranquilizer.
Thorazine has two other effects that are side effects of the drug. They are not therapeutic effects of the drug, but they are fairly commonly seen. One is hypotension. Thorazine tends to lower the blood pressure, and therefore when using Thorazine in elderly patients or in large doses, you must be careful to watch their blood pressure.
The other significant side effects chlorpromazine or Thorazine is what we call anticholineric effects, and these effect would be dry mouth, constipation, decreased sweating, difficulty with urination particularly in a male with an enlarged prostate, perhaps blurred vision.
Q. When you say that one of the major effects of chlorpromazine is to make one more tranquil, would that tend to - - could you elaborate a little bit on what you mean by tranquil, on the manner in which somebody who might previously be agitated might be after taking the chlorpromazine? A. Persons that are psychotic basically are out
Page 3574
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
Of touch with reality, and the reality that they experience is of multiple conflicting ideas. Perhaps they are even actually hearing voices. There is just like a beehive of voiced and ideas and things racing through their head.
Because of this terrific confusion, the patient very often loses sleep. The patient can become very agitated. Thorazine removes this. Thorazine suppresses this frenzy of ideas and voices, therefore returns the person to reality as we know it.
Q. What about a patient who is given Thorazine who is not psychotic? A. It would just simply tend to make you drowsy.
Q. Would it make you - - a person more compliant with authority? Is it not often used in therapeutic situations, in mental hospitals and places like that where persons might have some resentment of rules or something of that nature? A. No, no really. That’s really not an effect of Thorazine. Thorazine does not have an effect like a truth serum where the patient is more suggestible or - - Now, any sedative, obviously any sedative can make a person somewhat more compliant or easier to deal with. But Thorazine is no more unique than any sedative in that regard.
Page 3575
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
Q. The administering of chlorpromazine to Henry Lucas by the jail personnel of Williamson County, was that something that would normally be noted in the jail records? A. Yes. We keep medical records and each dose of medication is signed off by the jailer that administers it.
Q. However, is it possible that the chlorpromazine as well as other drugs that were kept at the jail could be administered by jail personnel without such notations being made in the jail medical records? A. That would be possible.
Q. And if that were done, you would have no way of really knowing whether that were done or not, would you? A. That’s correct.
MR. PONTON: Pass the witness, Your Honor.
MR. JEWKES: Your Honor, somtime in the past two or three weeks I believe the defense tendered into evidence Mr. Lucas’ medical records of Williamson County. I wonder if we could have just a moment to talk with the Court Reporter and see if we can locate those records.
THE COURT: Certainly.
Page 3576
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
Do you recall what number that was? (An off-the-record discussion was held.)
BY MR. JEWKES:
Q. Doctor, if you would, please, sir, I would ask you to refer to the last page in your medical records pertaining to Henry Lucas. I believe it’s a notation dated January the 26th of 1984.
A. Yes, that’s correct.
Q. I don’t know. I’m going to try to keep from being repetitive on this, but - - because you have already covered it. But I believe, first of all, you noted that Mr. Lucas had insomnia and nervousness.
A. That’s correct.
Q. You indicate that he apparently was seeing things, but he denied auditory hallucinations. As briefly as possible, could you explain to us what auditory hallucinations are? A. Hearing things that are not there.
Q. Voices? A. Voices, that’s right.
Q. Then you indicated that there is a swarm of ideas. You have already explained that people who are psychotic tend to have, I guess, a number of
Page 3577
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
things going through their mind. Is that generally correct? A. That’s correct.
Q. And you indicate here that he drinks 12 cups of coffee daily. I presume that you obtained that information from Lucas? A. Yes.
Q. Is that right? A. Yes.
Q. And would that contribute possibly to part of his nervousness at that time? A. Certainly.
Q. You’ve got a letter A and a semicolon, A standing for? A. Assessment.
Q. “Probable impending psychosis.” Doctor, in laymen’s terms, how can we - - what is psychosis? A. Psychosis is being out of touch with reality. Now, that may not be an official psychiatric definition, but I think for purposes of the Court that would be terse and to the point.
Q. I appreciate that because I need that, too. Psychosis, out of touch with reality. Could we also possibly interpret that as out of touch with the truth to some degree at times? Page 3578
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
Yes, that’s possible.
Q. Now, in laymen’s terms, what is schizophrenia? A. Okay. Schizophrenia is a brain disease or a mental disease where the patient is chronically - - or chronically intermittently psychotic, and that psychosis does not derive from drugs or sleep loss or toxic state like a high fever, but the psychosis seems to be intrinsic to the function of the brain itself.
Q. Now, I have always heard the term split personality, and I have always associated that with schizophrenia.
A. That’s just one type of schizophrenia.
Q. That’s why I’m not a doctor. So what we commonly refer to as a split personality, that could be attributed to schizophrenia but not necessarily. There could be other symptoms? A. That’s right.
Q. A split personality is kind of a symptom, is it not? A. No, it’s a sub-set of schizophrenics where the schizophrenic has well differentiated personalities. In other words, the schizophrenic may have organized delusions or disorganized delusions.
Page 3579
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
The schizophrenic patient may be out of touch with reality and just immensely globally confused.
On the other hand, the schizophrenic patient can be out of touch with reality, but their unreality can be very well organized. For example, the schizophrenic patient who believes himself to be the President of the United States or to be Napoleon, that would be a case of a well organized delusional system. And you might call that a split personality, whereas other schizophrenic patients may just be extremely confused, believe that God is talking to them over the radio and that radio signals are coming into their heads from the CIA and other bizarre ideas. But I really wouldn’t call that a split personality.
Q. Now, you told us that when you examined Mr. Lucas on January the 26th, 1984, you did a mental status exam on him and he was oriented but showed no brain dysfunction. Now, when we talk about oriented, does that mean he knew where he was? A. That’s correct. He knew where he was. He knew who he was. He knew who he was with. He knew the date and time and he knew significant landmarks, like who is the President of the United States and so on like that.
Q. Did he appear to be alert?
Page 3580
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
Yes, he was quite alert.
Q. And for all practical purposes - - and I hate to use this word because of his - - it’s all relative, but did he appear to be normal, at least mentally? A. Yes. That’s called the affect of the patient. And basically that’s the examining physician’s just gut feeling as looking at the patient an just seeing how this patient looks. So it seems rather unscientific, but that is part of a mental status examination. And to answer your question directly, yes, he looked normal.
Q. But you were somewhat concerned that based on his background there might have been some type of impending psychosis? A. That’s correct.
Q. Now, do you have any knowledge as to whether or not he ever went into a type of psychosis? A. No, I can never cite to you a specific instance when I knew that Mr. Lucas was psychotic.
Q. You prescribed, as per your records, 100 milligrams daily, and I believe you testified, at bedtime, or chlorpromazine? A. That’s correct.
Q. Which is commonly referred to as Thorazine. Let me ask you something. Maybe you have never taken
Page 3581
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
it. I don’t know.
I never have.
Q. Okay. Do you know whether chlorpromazine has any type of taste to it? A. The pill is what we call an enteric coated pill. In other words, it has a sugar coating so would have absolutely no taste if you swallowed it. If you chewed on it or sucked on it for a while, it might have a taste.
Q. What if it was put in a strawberry milkshake? A. Thorazine does come in a liquid preparation, and that is tasteless, odorless and colorless, so - - but as far as the pill, it might not be the taste of the drug itself but the vehicle that it’s carried in. I couldn’t answer that.
Q. Did you ever - - Were you the only source for chlorpromazine from Williamson county to the jail? In other words, did they get it from any other source other than you or do you know? A. No. No, they could not have gotten it unless another physician had prescribed it and they had then gone to the drugstore and bought it. That’s the only other way chlorpromazine would have been available.
Q. Based on anything that you might have seen
Page 3582
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
or heard in the past, Doctor, do you have any reason to believe that the Williamson County sheriff’s office was obtaining chlorpromazine from any other source other than you? A. No.
Q. Do you have any reason to believe that way of the sheriff’s personnel were indiscriminately putting Thorazine in Mr. Lucas’ milkshakes?
A. No.
Q. And did you ever provide liquid chlorpromazine to the sheriff’s office, the Williamson County sheriff’s office? A. No.
Q. If you put a chlorpromazine - - I have to apologize for asking this, but if you put a chlorpromazine tablet - - I guess it comes in a tablet form? A. Yes.
Q. - - in a milkshake, would it dissolve or - -
A. You would have to crush it up.
Q. You would have to crush it up. And - - But you have no idea whether it would taste bitter in that milkshake or whether someone could distinguish the fact that chlorpromazine was in that milkshake? A. I’m sorry. I just can’t answer that
Page 3583
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
Question.
Q. Now, we got into the - - I guess what you would say the indications, the contraindications of Thorazine, and you told us it was a tranquilizer not a sedative, had an antinausea property to it.
Doctor, is 100 milligrams daily, is that an inordinate dose? A. No, that’s a fairly moderate dose.
Q. A fairly moderate dose.
A. I have known and have prescribed doses as large as 800 milligrams daily to patients.
Q. As you prescribed that dosage for Mr. Lucas, I take it, then, it should have been nothing more than a mild sedative, at least in that dosage or am I wrong? A. That was certainly my intention. The reason I picked that dose for Mr. Lucas is I hoped that at that dose it would have a sedative effect which would enable him to sleep at night and to abolish any early impending psychosis.
Q. Assuming that that dosage was administered as you prescribed it, that being 100 milligrams daily, should it have had any type of harmful side effects on Mr. Lucas? A. I was not aware that he had any harmful side
Page 3584
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
effects from that. And if he had any, they were not brought to my attention by the jail personnel.
Q. Doctor, do you have any reason to believe that 100 milligrams daily would make him more suggestible? A. No.
Q. You told us that Thorazine sometimes returns people to reality. How does that come about? In other words, how does the drug work to cause that to happen? A. I’m afraid that I can’t get into the pharmacology and pharmacophysiology of how Thorazine affects the receptor hormones in the brain to actually cause that. I think we will just have to take it that that’s what it does.
Q. Would you say that Thorazine is a mind-altering medication, that it would cause someone to do something that they don’t want to do? A. Well, let me split your question.
Q. All right.
A. It is mind altering. Number two, it would not cause someone to do something that they don’t want to do.
Q. Let’s go to the first half of the question. And I don’t quite know how to phrase it, but how - -
Page 3585
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
Without getting into the pharmacological explanation, how is it mind altering? In other words, what do you see? A. All right. Well, Thorazine is what we call a psychoactive drug. In other words, it affects the operation of the sensorium. Any time you take any drug including alcohol that makes you sedate or sleepy or tranquil or whatever, it has altered your mind.
Q. Okay.
A. It has altered all of the cognitive - - that’s the thinking, the reasoning, the perceptual functions of the brain. There may be a minimal alteration, it may be a significant alteration, but an alteration has taken place.
Q. Might Thorazine alter the rationalization process in your mind? A. Yes.
Q. Might it make someone more rational? A. It very well might.
Q. In other words, bring someone closer to reality, enable that person to rationalize better than before that person started to take that medication? A. That’s generally what the drug is used for.
Page 3586
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
MR. JEWKES: Your Honor, may I approach the witness, please? THE COURT: Yes, sir.
Q. (BY MR. JEWKES) Doctor, I show you what has been admitted into evidence as defendant’s Exhibit Number 24 and which has been identified by some previous witness as the medical records pertaining to Henry Lucas from Williamson County. I’d like you to look at them for just a second to kind of familiarize yourself.
A. You want me to look all the way through? Q. I don’t know if it’s necessary, doctor, just to where you can feel comfortable with the records.
A. Okay. I’ll look more carefully if it’s necessary later on.
Q. All right. Do those purport to be Williamson County medical records on Henry Lucas?
A. Yes, these are definitely the medical records from our jail.
Q. All right, sir. And, Doctor, we see here that on August the 1st, 1983, it would appear that Thorazine was administered to Henry Lucas by some - - it says here attending physician or nurse?
A. That would have been a jail officer.
Q. All right. Certainly not yourself?
Page 3587
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
Not myself.
Q. All right. And I see parenthesis and then a 1 in there. What is that? DO you have any idea what that means? A. That means one tablet of Thorazine was administered on that date and time.
Q. All right. Would you have any way of knowing what was the dosage of that tablet? A. No, I do not.
Q. And then we see that on the succeeding days Mr. Lucas was administered Thorazine. Would you agree with that? A. That’s correct.
Q. We go to the second page and we see that at least as of August the 3rd of 1983, it looks like maybe one tablet? A. One again.
Q. Administered to Mr. Lucas by a jailer, and that looks to be Reyes? A. Reyes, uh-huh.
Q. All right, sir.
A. That’s the the dentist. That’s the instructions from the dentist’s office. Ron Warren is the dentist.
Q. All right, sir. Very briefly for the court
Page 3588
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
because I don’t know if he has looked at this, would you explain to the Court what appears to be the fourth page of the - - or pardon me - - the fifth page of Defense Exhibit Number 24? A. These are patient care instructions written by a dentist in Georgetown. Presumably Mr. Lucas had been to see him in his office.
Q. All right. Then we go to the sixth page, and again this appears to be some type of record showing various medications being given to Henry Lucas. Would you agree with that? A. That’s correct.
Q. What do some of these various medications appear to be? A. Tylenol, Tylenol with codeine, and penicillin. And I would presume these were all related to dental treatment.
Q. This would appear to deal with the early part of December of 1983. Would you disagree? A. Yes.
Q. We go to the next page and it’s a continuation, and this pertains to the first and middle part of December of 1983. Would you agree? A. That’s correct.
Q. Next page continues into December. However,
Page 3589
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
at this time, it does not appear that Thorazine is being administered to Mr. Lucas. Would you agree or disagree? A. I would agree. No Thorazine was being administered.
Q. That would be from the days of December 12th, 1983, up to December 14th, 1983? A. Well, actually, let me get it all together here.
Q. Yes, sir.
A. From December the 4th of 1983 through January the 3rd of 1984, no Thorazine or any other psychoactive drug was given.
Q. Doctor, you may not be able to answer this, but why would that medication have been discontinued? Do you have any explanation? A. Well, Mr. Lucas was brought to our jail from Montaque County, and I presume that the Thorazine that he was administered there at first was prescribed by a physician in Montaque County. And it’s generally our policy at the jail when an inmate comes to the jail with prescriptions from a physician, we continue to give those drugs as directed by the original physician. And that’s what I believe was done until he went back to Montaque County.
Page 3590
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
When he came back from Montaque County, he was not on Thorazine at the point and we did not continue him on it.
Q. All right, sir. The next page, and of particular interest is this notation January the 26th of 1984.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I think we see that chlorpromazine was continued. Would you agree? A. That’s when it was started. That’s the same day Mr. Lucas was seen in my office.
Q. Exactly. And that notation would probably pertain to your prescription of it. In other words, chlorpromazine would come because of your prescription. Would you disagree? A. That’s right.
Q. And the next page continues, as we go into January and the early part of February of 1984. Would you agree with me that chlorpromazine is being administered? A. Yes.
Q. Does it appear by scanning that page whether or not the chlorpromazine was administered in inordinate doses? A. I’m going to have to correct my previous testimony in that I stated that he received 100
Page 3591
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
Milligrams at bedtime. That’s not true. He received 25 milligrams in the morning, 25 milligrams in the afternoon and 50 milligrams at bedtime. So the total daily dose was correct, 100 milligrams. And in my clinic records I put simply 100 milligrams daily, and so I - - since I normally administer this at bedtime, that’s what I thought I had done, but the record corrects me.
Q. All right, sir. So - -
A. I still would not - - To answer your question directly, though, that’s not an inordinate dose of chlorpromazine.
Q. Based on your direction, it was administered in increments? A. That’s right.
Q. Then we go into February and chlorpromazine is still being administered. Would you agree? A. Yes.
Q. Go to the next page and we start with February the 4th of 1984 and we stop at February the 13th, 1984. If you will scan the page, it would appear that chlorpromazine is still being administered? A. Yes, it is.
Page 3592
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
Q. Does it appear that it’s being administered in inordinate doses? A. Let me look.
Q. Yes, sir.
A. Actually, the dose was reduced. He was inly taking 75 milligrams a day at this time.
Q. In February of 1984? A. February of 1984.
Q. All right, sir. We continued into February, chlorpromazine is still being administered. Do you agree with that? A. Let me specifically note that Mr. Lucas had been out of town and when he returned and when I redid his prescriptions, I rewrote that he was to have one in the morning, one at noon and two at night as originally prescribed.
Q. All right, sir. And would that still be on a dosage of 100 milligrams? A. 100 milligrams a day.
Q. Then we go into succeeding pages and we are talking about February 19th, 1984, down to February 28th, 1984. Would you agree with me the chlorpromazine is still being administered?
A. Yes, being administered and being administered correctly.
Page 3593
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
Q. And from February the 28th to March the 2nd, 1984, the same - -
A. Yes.
Q. - - situation. We go to March 3rd, 1984 - - Excuse me - - from March 3rd, 1984, to March 9th, 1984. We are still faced with the same situation? A. Yes.
Q. How about from April the 15th to April the 18th of 1984? A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Then we get to this page and we start with April the 18th, 1984, and we go to April the 30th of 1984. Does it appear that chlorpromazine is still being administered? A. The last time chlorpromazine was administered was on April the 23rd of 1984. On April the 24th, there is a notation that Mr. Lucas was not in the jail, therefore it was not administered.
On April 28th and 29th, the chlorpromazine was offered to the patient and he refused to take it. On April 30th is a notation that says, “Patient said he does not want to take the medication anymore.”
Q. Now, Doctor, if you would, we are just about finished. If you would, to yourself would you start
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
at this notation and go through and briefly look at these pages to see whether or not after April 30th, 1984, any type of chlorpromazine was administered to this defendant, Henry Lucas? A. Between April 23rd of 1984 and April 12 of 1985 no chlorpromazine was administered.
Q. Doctor, would chlorpromazine have any type of long term effects on a patient? A. There is only one long term effect that I know of, and it’s called tardive dyskinesia. It’s a repetitive smacking, chewing motion of the mouth, and it’s general seen in elderly woman and in persons that receive very large doses or receive treatment for a very long period of time. That is the only long term side effect or reaction that would be present that I know of in a patient that had been taking Thorazine.
Q. I have a theoretical question for you, Doctor. Based upon your training and experience and your expertise in the field, if a person was placed on a - - I hate to use the word again, but let’s say a normal dosage. If you choose to correct me, that’s fine - - a normal dosage of chlorpromazine and that approximately six months later, five to six months
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
later that person gave a confession, would chlorpromazine have anything to do with whether or not that person could resist giving that confession? A. Absolutely not.
Q. One last question, Doctor. I believe you testified earlier that the officers - - police - - or the deputy sheriffs in Williamson County had to sign for the chlorpromazine that you provided to the jail. Is that correct? A. They signed it off when they administered it. They don’t sing any kind of receipt when it’s delivered because it’s still mine.
Q. Did you ever maintain any type of log or recording to be able to determine how many pills were administered to the jail and whatnot? A. I know what you mean, and the answer is no, we don’t do that.
Q. There is no way of knowing, then, how many tablets were actually turned over to the jail? A. That’s right. In other words, if tablets were stolen or missing or whatever, I would never know about it. I do not have a quality control process to check for that.
MR. JEWKES: I pass the witness.
MR. PONTON: May I approach the witness,
Page 3596
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
Your Honor?
BY MR. PONTON:
Q. Doctor, I have got the same - - I have got a copy of what is the jail records which are Defendant’s Exhibit 24, and I have marked a couple of things and I want to ask you about them.
Here is the first page of it. What is the charge here at the top of the page of the form where the charge is that the inmate is charged with? A. It says, “Murder.” Q. Here that I have underlined in yellow, what does it say there at the beginning of treatment and observations? A. “Attempted” - - Just what you have underlined? Q. Yes, please.
“Attempted suicide two weeks ago. Take one Thorazine three times a day.”
Q. And when you say, “Take one Thorazine three times a day,” what dosage of Thorazine would that be? A. I’m not sure because I didn’t prescribe that Thorazine.
Q. And what dosage unit of Thorazine was there at the jail?
Page 3597
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
25 milligram tablets.
Q. What is Ativan? A. It is a minor tranquilizer. Thorazine is a major tranquilizer. Now, that doesn’t have to do with strength. It’s just that Thorazine has antipsychotic properties, which we have gone into. Ativan does not have antipsychotic properties. It simply treats nervousness or anxiety.
Q. And the - - Here you have - - Go ahead. Starting with Ativan, if you could read that, what I have marked there.
Q. Okay. This is when Mr. Lucas came back to the jail and his medications were reauthorized by me. “Ativan three times daily unless asleep.” Chlorpromazine one in the morning and noon, two at night. By the authority of: Dr. Benold.”
Q. And the next entry date is what? A. February the 18th of 1984.
Q. Now, that entry would indicate that in mid-February of ’84 Mr. Lucas was being prescribed three Ativan tablets a day and three chlorpromazine a day? A. Four.
Q. Four?
A. Three Ativans a day and four chlorpromazines a day.
Page 3598
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
Q. Okay. And then I have another notation there, if you could read that.
A. Okay. This date - - This notation is not specifically dated, but I presume that this will be either on or one day before February - - April the 15th of ’84. And it states, “Chlorpromazine one in the morning, one in the afternoon and two at night.”
Q. And what is the charge that Lucas is charged with on his form? A. Murder.
Q. Now, we come up here to 4-28-84, and please read those two or three lines I have marked in yellow there.
A. “April 28th, 1984, 10:00 p.m., chlorpromazine, two - - two tablets refused,” and then the jailer’s initials, which I believe is R.W.
Then, “April 29th, 1984, 6:00 in the morning, chlorpromazine, two refused,” also signed by R.W.
Then the notation written in on April 30th, 1984, “Said he does not want medication anymore.”
Q. Do you remember when Henry Lucas came back to Williamson County from Tom Green County where he had been on trial for capital murder?
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
I do not remember exactly when that was.
Q. Do you have some recollection of him returning to Williamson County? A. I do remember that he did come back, yes.
Q. When he came back, do you remember any conversations between you and Henry Lucas regarding the fact that he felt he had been getting too much Thorazine while he was at that orange socks trial? A. No, we had no conversation about that at all.
Q. Do you recall whether Henry Lucas asked you to be taken off of Thorazine because he felt he had been given too much of it while he was in Tom Green County at the orange socks trial? A. No, I don’t remember that.
Q. Now, I want to show you - - direct your attention here to this entry, which is - - the date of this form is what? A. September the 23rd of 1984.
Q. And when it has up here in the form what he is charged with, what do they have written there? A. “Over 200 murders.”
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
Q. And that would presumably be written by somebody in the jail? A. That’s correct.
Q. Now, I want to come up here and ask you what is written here at 1-21-85 that I have marked in yellow? A. Says, “January 21st, 1985, 7:30 p.m., Henry is out of town, winter sports.”
Q. Does that mean that Henry was out of town to engage in some kind of winter sports? A. I didn’t make this notation, so I really don’t know what they mean.
Q. And there on the next page, what is the date of the first entry there? A. January 25th, 1985.
Q. And where it has, “Charge,” written at the top, what does it say there? A. “300 counts of murder.”
MR. PONTON: Thank you, Doctor.
MR. JEWKES: Your Honor, we have no further questions of the witness.
THE COURT: All right. Thank you, Doctor. You may be excused.
Let’s take a brief rest here. Who’s next?
MR. PONTON: It will be Beverly Degrow, Your
Page 3602
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
Honor. She will take one to two hours, I would say.
(A brief recess was taken.)
THE COURT: All right, young lady. Raise your right hand, please.
BEVERLY DeGROW,
Having been first duly sworn by the Court to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, was examined and testified as follows:
BY MS. SIPES:
Q. Would you state your name? A. Beverly DeGrow.
Q. Ms. DeGrow, where do you reside? A. Ogden, Utah.
Q. How are you employed? A. I’m a reporter for the Associated Press.
Q. And how long have you been in journalism? A. Ten years.
Q. Where did you go to college if, in fact, you did? A. Weber State in Ogden.
Q. Your home and your formal education is all in Utah. Is that correct?
Page 3602
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
Yes.
Q. When you were in college, did you have any background or do any studies in law enforcement? A. Yes.
Q. What were those studies involved in? A. I minored in criminology.
Q. And did you have a - - You did have a background, then, in investigation and interviewing of suspects in criminal cases. Is that correct? A. Yes.
Q. And with that background, you then went into journalism. Is that correct? A. Yes.
Q. And did you have occasion, then, to come to Texas, and if so, would you tell the Court briefly - - just tell the Court briefly why it was that you came to Texas and how you were employed here in Texas.
A. I moved to Texas in 1983 and I got a job at the Williamson County Sun in Georgetown, Texas, where I was employed from March ’84 to June 86.
Q. And what were you doing for the Williamson County Sun?
A. I was their court reporter and their police beat reporter.
Q. And did that entail you going to Williamson
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
County jail? A. Yes, every day.
Q. And did you become acquainted with the task force on Henry Lee Lucas and the members of that task force? A. Yes.
Q. Who was involved in that task force? A. Williamson County Sheriff Jim Boutwell and Texas Rangers Bob Prince, Clayton Smith and near the end, Bob Warner.
Q. Bob Warner? A. He was a Texas Ranger, I believe. Anyway, he was involved with the task force, also.
Q. Can you tell me how often you would go to the jail and how you were treated in the jail and what areas of the jail you had access to? A. I would go down to the jail every day to go through their office reports to see if any major crimes had occurred, and then I would go into the back, into the jail area where they had their booking log and I would go through the logs every day to see if someone had been arrested.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
Q. Okay.
A. Okay.
Q. Did you see Mr. Lucas in the jail? A. Yes, practically every day.
Q. Where would he be when you would see him? A. In the task force office or in the booking area.
Q. Would you visit with him? A. Yes.
Q. And interview him? A. Yes.
Q. You would see him almost every day, then? A. Yes, unless he was out of town.
Q. Would you say, then, that having seen him in the jail that you became familiar with the way he was treated in the Williamson County Jail? A. Yes.
Q. Tell the Court - - If you would, please, just tell the Judge how Henry Lee Lucas was treated in the Williamson County Jail. When you saw him there in the task force, was he handcuffed? A. No.
Q. How was he dressed? A. Street clothes.
Q. Were you ever there when he was fed?
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
No.
Q. Were you ever there when food was prepared for him or brought in for him? A. No.
Q. Were you ever there when any food was prepared in the jail such as ice cream? A. They didn’t prepare ice cream in the jail.
Q. What did they do as far as ice cream is concerned? A. They had an ice cream machine down in the lobby. Right when you walk in the sheriff’s department, there was a Cole machine and and an ice cream machine and a water fountain.
Q. A vending machine? A. Yeah.
Q. Would they keep ice cream in there for Henry Lucas? A. Yes.
Q. Did they - - What kind of ice cream did they keep there for him? A. I don’t recall. I don’t know.
Q. Did you ever see the ice cream machine being filled - -
A. No.
Q. - - and have a conversation with anyone about - -
Page 3606
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
I was in the booking area one day and the jailers were complaining that day because they were taking out the jailer’s favorite ice cream, and they weren’t pleased.
Q. They weren’t pleased. Henry had his own ice cream put in the vending machines there in Williamson County? A. Yes.
Q. Is that correct? A. Yes.
Q. Did you ever have occasion to see the way Henry Lucas was treated as for as Sheriff Boutwell was concerned? A. Yes.
Q. How would Sheriff Boutwell treat Henry Lucas? A. Well, like they were old friends.
Q. Is this when they were together? A. Yes.
Q. Do you have any other description about his manner and attitude with Henry Lucas?
A. Just extremely friendly towards him.
Q. Would you say they were close when they are were together? Page 3607
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
It appeared so, yes.
Q. How would he - - What was his attitude towards Henry Lucas when Henry Lucas wasn’t there? A. Oh, he’d bad-mouth him, say not very pleasant things about the man.
Q. So his attitude and demeanor would change when Mr. Lucas was not around? A. Yes.
Q. Is that correct? A. Yes.
Q. Did you ever have occasion to see Texas Ranger Bob Prince and Clayton Smith and Texas Ranger Warner and their treatment of Henry Lucas? A. Yes, it was the same as Boutwell’s.
Q. Together they were very pleasant toward him, when he was present? A. Yes.
Q. And different when - - What, if anything, would they say about Henry Lucas when he was not there?
A. Obviously didn’t like him. They - - I don’t know.
Q. Were you ever present when Henry Lucas was ever threatened by any of the members of the task force?
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
Personally, face-to-face with Henry in the room?
Q. Yes.
A. No, huh-uh.
Q. Were you ever present when they made any threats regarding Henry Lucas when Mr. Lucas wasn’t present? A. Well, I had a conversation with Boutwell one day. That was a - - I asked him - - I asked the sheriff one day what would happen if Henry just decided to stop talking> Q. And what were you told? A. Boutwell told me that Henry wouldn’t - - would never stop talking because he knew that if he did they’d send him to Huntsville and he wouldn’t be able to paint anymore.
Q. Based upon what you had learned as far as law enforcement was concerned, about investigation and interviewing, did you see the manner in which Henry Lucas was interviewed and the murders investigated there in Georgetown, Texas? A. Yes.
Q. Can you tell us a little bit about that, please? A. Well, the way that - - My understanding of
Page 3609
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
The way that the task force was set up was when law enforcement officers would send cases to Georgetown, Texas - -
MS. PENNOCK: Excuse me. Your Honor, I’m going to object, perhaps, to the answer. She’s saying, “My understanding,” and it’s not clear whether she’s getting ready to tell us what people have told her or what she has personally observed, and I would like to - -
THE COURT: Well, I’ll sustain the objection. Rephrase your question, Ms. Sipes, and let’s see what she knows.
Q. (BY MS. SIPES) Did you see different inquiries concerning murders around the country coming in - -
A. Yes.
Q. - - there to Williamson County jail? A. Yes.
Q. Were they coming in through the mail?
A. Yes.
Q. Were you present in the task force room when Mr. Lucas would be briefed upon those? A. Yes.
Q. Who would brief him on those different inquiries?
Page 3610
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
Clayton Smith.
Q. Would you, for example - - Give an example for the Court as to the manner in which Mr. Lucas would be briefed about those cases that came in through the mail.
A. Clayton would give Henry a synopsis of the case to find out if Henry was responsible for that particular case.
Q. Okay.
A. What I mean by synopsis, he would give him background information into the case.
Q. Okay. Is this a correct way that you would have learned how to do it? MS. PENNOCK: I’m going to object, Your Honor. Basically, this witness testified that she went to school for an unknown period of time and took some unknown criminology courses, and I don’t think that qualifies her as an expert into testifying on interviewing techniques.
MS. SIPES: Your Honor, I’m not submitting this witness as an expert. I’m submitting her as a witness to factual events to her mind concerning the manner in which the investigation was conducted.
THE COURT: Well, I’m going to let her
Page 3611
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
answer the question. Go ahead and answer the question.
Could you repeat it? I’m sorry.
Q. (BY MS. SIPES) When you say that he was given a synopsis, what sort of facts were given to Mr. Lucas?
Would the sex of the victim be given to him, male or female? A. Yes.
Q. Would he be given information as to whether it was an adult or a child? A. Yes.
Q. Would he be given information as to the manner of the death, such as strangulations or shooting or a bludgeon death? A. No.
Q. Would he - - What other facts would he typically be given, on the area of the country - -
A. Yes.
Q. - - that it took place in? A. Yes.
Q. Perhaps the employment of the individual like schoolteacher or young hitchhiker? A. I don’t know.
Q. Are you aware of any other facts that would
Page 3611
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
normally be given in the synopsis?
Well, it was where it occurred, indoors or outdoors.
Q. Okay. Would you be present during the period of time when Ranger Smith would give that information to Henry Lucas? A. Well, it’s not exactly like I was present. It was in a room off to the side of the main task force office. It was like a little small interrogation room where I would stand outside the door and listen.
Q. Okay.
A. I would listen to what was going on inside.
Q. Okay.
A. So I wasn’t actually present in the room, but I could hear what was being said in the room.
Q. Was Mr. Lucas ever prompted with any additional facts if his memory was not clear? A. Sometimes.
Q. After a synopsis was given to Mr. Lucas what, if anything else, happened in the investigation in those cases? A. Well, then he would ask Henry questions, if he thought that he may have been responsible for that particular case.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
Q. Okay.
A. And during the questioning, Henry would say - - they would ask how the person was killed, and Henry would say, “Oh, I stabbed her.” And then he would say, “No, no, no.” And then he would say, “Oh, all right. I shot her.” Well, yes.”
I mean, it would go - - it would go sort of like that.
And I asked the rangers about that one time, you know, why do you let him have a second guess or a third guess or whatever, and they said it was because he committed so many murders that he would get them confused, that he just couldn’t remember specific details about them because he was responsible for so many and so that’s why they gave him second and third choices.
Q. Did you ever ask the rangers as to why he would be confused about a very major fact concerning the manner of the killing and not be confused about some very minor points such as clothing? Did you ever question them regarding that?
A. No.
Q. When you were in school, how were you taught to conduct an investigation or interview with a
Page 3614
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
Criminal suspect? A. Well, I guess it would be just like as with journalism, also. I had two techniques of interviewing through school, because I majored in journalism and minored in criminology. Interrogation and interview, you would ask suspects, I guess, the - - you wouldn’t - - I don’t know how to explain. I’m sorry. Give me a second.
Q. This is your first time to testify? A. Yes.
Q. Are you very nervous? A. Yes.
Q. If you need a glass of water, I’ll get you one.
A. No, I’m fine. You let the suspect tell the story instead of you giving them the story, this is how it happened as opposed to what happened.
Q. Were you taught that you would start at some definite point as to where a suspect had been that could be proved by an independent reference and then go from that point? A. Yes.
Q. And to - - For instance, if they knew where Henry Lee Lucas was the day he was released from jail in Michigan, they would then ask him, “What did you
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
next do?” Is that correct? A. Yes. It would - - That’s how I was - - That’s what I was taught in criminology classes, yes.
Q. And based upon what you were taught and based upon what you saw happening there in the Williamson County jail, if anything, did you begin to suspect about the confessions? A. They were false.
Q. Did you tell anyone? A. Yes. I talked to the sheriff at one time about it. I talked to my editor about it at one time. Q. What were you told by the sheriff? A. It was the same reasoning, that Henry has killed so many people that he has a hard time remembering specifics about them because - - and they would also say that he was drinking and doing a lot of drugs so sometimes they had to jolt his memory to bring it out.
Q. Did you ever make inquiry as to whether there was ever any independent evidence at a crime scene to corroborate the stories that Henry Lucas had given to the task force such as fingerprints or - -
A. Did I ever question that? Q. Yes.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
No, I didn’t.
Q. After he was given a synopsis by Texas Ranger Smith, what, if anything, would happen in their investigation? A. If there was some reason to suspect that Henry was responsible for this particular case, then they would call in the outside agency and set up an interview date for him to come in and talk to Henry.
Q. Would you see the outside agencies arrive daily at the Georgetown jail? A. Yes.
Q. What, if anything, would take place once these outside agencies arrived in Georgetown? A. Well, before they would interview Henry, go into the little interview room, the Texas Rangers would give him a briefing of which case this was.
Q. They would give that briefing to Henry? A. Yes.
Q. Once again? A. Yes, and with the same reasoning, that there were just so many cases that Henry might get confused and think it was some other case they were coming in to talk to him about, so they had to brief him before he went into the room with the law enforcement officer.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
Q. What record, if any, was made of those interviews, do you know, of the interview by the outside agencies of Henry Lee Lucas? A. Oh, I don’t know. I’m sure some people - - I’m sure - - I saw tape recordings going in, so I’m sure - -
Q. Did you ever see any tapes? Did you ever see any videotapes or were any audiotapes ever played for you? A. One audiotape was.
Q. Who was that tape played by? A. Sheriff Boutwell.
Q. What was the purpose of Sheriff Boutwell playing an audiotape for you? A. He told me he wanted to play the tape for me to convince me that Henry was responsible for this murder.
Q. This was after you had raised questions - -
A. Yes.
Q. - - to him. And how early was this or do you recall the approximate time?
A. No, I can’t.
Q. Were you convinced that Henry Lucas was involved in those murders after the playing of that tape?
Page 3618
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
No, because I understood how the process was working. They would talk to Henry about the case before they tape recorded it.
Q. Okay.
A. Before the tape was turned on.
Q. And were you, then, allowed to interview Mr. Lucas yourself? A. Yes.
Q. And during one of those interview did you present a case to Mr. Lucas to see if he would confess to that particular murder? A. Yes.
Q. Would you tell us about that, please, in your own words? A. I’d been working in Wyoming for a newspaper before I moved to Texas, and right before I moved, there was a double murder that was unsolved. It was two German kids that were in the United States hitchhiking around for the summer and they had found them off the side of the interstate. They had been shot with a 9 millimeter gun. And so I started questioning Henry if he had ever picked up any German hitchhikers in his travels.
Q. And what was his response, if any? A. Yes.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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Q. Then what was your next question to Mr. Lucas? A. I asked him if he had ever used a 9 millimeter. Q. And what was his response, if any? A. Yes.
Q. And what did you next question Mr. Lucas about? A. I asked him where he committed the murders.
A. And what was his response, if any? A. He couldn’t remember.
Q. Couldn’t remember what state they were in? And tell us what happened next.
A. He hemmed and hawed around, and finally I said, “Well, why don’t you just give me a region of the country?”
And he told me, “It was the south.” And I said, “Are you sure it’s the south?”
And he says, “Yes, I’m positive. It was the south.” Q. And did this convince you that he had not killed the hitchhikers, the German visitors?
Yes. And Boutwell was in the room when I - - when I was doing the interview, and Boutwell got a little irate with me and he took me outside and he
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
told me, “Henry likes to trick people to try to keep them on their toes.” Q. Did you see an individual there at the jail by the name of Clementine Schroeder? A. Yes.
Q. Did you become friends with Ms. Schroeder? A. Acquaintances, yes.
Q. Did she confide in you? A. Yes.
Q. Did she have access to helping Mr. Lucas in a way that was different from the way other prisoners were treated, and if so, would you describe that, please? A. Well, she had - - she could - - the other prisoners, she could talk to him face-to-face in the task force office and, I guess, talk to him whenever she wanted.
Q. Did you ever see her bring any food to Mr. Lucas? A. Yes.
Q. Do you remember a time when the task force decided that it needed some good publicity, and if so, could you describe that to the Court, please? A. Yes. It was - - The people of Georgetown,
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
Texas, we were getting nasty letters to the editor that people were tired of henry lee Lucas and that they should just send him to Huntsville and be done with it.
And so that’s when Clemmie Curtis - - the case was solved. Sheriff Boutwell called me up one morning and told me to rush down to the jail, that he had a big story for me if I wanted, that I could talk to henry about it if I wanted to.
Q. Did you rush down to the jail? A. Yes, I did.
Q. Were you informed that this - - they needed to get some good publicity? A. Yes.
Q. And is this from the West Virginia - - the killing of the West Virginia patrolman was solved? A. Yes.
Q. And did you get to read the confession that Henry made to that killing? A. I didn’t read the confession. I just listened to Henry’s confession to me.
Q. What was your impression of that? A. I had no - - I had no feelings about it one way or the other.
Q. Did Mrs. Curtis, the widow, then come to
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
Georgetown? A. Yes, they brought her to Georgetown.
Q. Was there a lot of publicity surrounding that? A. Yes, there was.
Q. Can you tell us a little bit about that publicity? A. They called me up on the phone and said, “Paula” - - That was her name - - “Paula Curtis was in town and that she would grant” - - that he would be more than happy to talk to me.
So I went down to the jail and I started talking to her about the case and about her husband. And at one point during my interview, Bob Prince came in and he interrupted the interview and he said, “Come here. I want to talk to you.” And I went in the other room and he said, “Ask her about how she feels about the task force.”
I said, “Well, I won’t tell you how to conduct an investigation, so please don’t tell me how to conduct my interview.”
Q. Okay.
A. And I went back in and finished the interview with her.
Q. Were you told how she felt about the task
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
force?
A.High praise, high praise. If it hadn’t been for them, she wouldn’t have received the insurance money.
Q. Did you note any difference between the murder as described to you by Paula as compared to the confession that Henry Lucas had made to you earlier? A. No. No, I don’t recall any.
Q. Did she tell you how the murder had taken place? A. I don’t think I asked her.
Q. Okay. Did the task force feel that that one confession alone justified the existence of the task force? A. Yes.
Q. And who told you that? A. Bob Prince.
Q. Did they receive a lot of publicity throughout the country for that confession? A. I Don’t know throughout the country.
Q. While you were there, did you - - in Georgetown, did you become familiar with a writer by the name of max Call who wrote a book entitled, The Hand of Death?
Page 3624
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
A.I know the book. I don’t know the author.
Q. Did you read the book? A. Yes.
Q. And did you make any individual inquiry as to the - - whether its contents were correct of incorrect or a fictionalized account? A. Well, just from reading it there were a lot of - - from my knowledge of Lucas, with reading the book there were a lot of mistakes, in my opinion, that were made throughout the book.
Q. Okay. And then did you inquire into an investigation that was done into cult affairs by a branch of the United States law enforcement agency, the Alcohol and Tobacco and Firearms Division, to find out if such a cult existed? A. Well, I didn’t seek - - One day - - A package came in the mail for me one day that was a classified document on an investigation done on the occult in this country back in 1977, I believe it was, and it was the FTA investigator who had done extensive research into the occult throughout the country.
It was when they were having the cattle mutilations in the Western states, which was of some interest to me because I’m from that area and I remembered when that was going on and they were
Page 3625
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
Finding all those animals mutilated.
Q. Yes, ma’am. And to your knowledge, were the allegations of the existence of a cult called the Hand of Death as set forth by Henry Lee Lucas and by Max Call, were they ever verified? A. In the report that I read? Q. In any manner that you’re aware of.
A. Not that I’m aware of, no.
Q. Do you know of any investigation that was ever commenced to inquire into the allegations of murder that take place in this book? A. I was told by Bob Prince that the Texas Rangers were investigating the so-called Hand of Death.
Q. Do you know whether the task force, then, ever accomplished a verification of such a cult? A. Not that I know of. Not that I’m aware of.
Q. Did you interview the investigators from Canada that came down to interview Mr. Lucas? A. Yes, I did.
Q. They were investigating a number of murders that had taken place in Canada, were they not? A. Yes.
Q. Do you know whether or not they cleared any cases as a result of their trip from Canada to
Page 3626
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
Georgetown, Texas? A. They did not clear any cases.
Q. Did interest dwindle there with the readership of the Sun in Williamson County?
A. Yes.
Q. And were you given any instructions by your editors as far as continuing into the investigation? A. Yes.
Q. What were those instructions? A. I was told that people were tired of reading about Henry Lee Lucas, so I was told to knock it off.
Q. Okay. And did you do so? A. Yes.
Q. Did you ever request of your employer that you be allowed to do a journal investigation into whether these confessions were a hoax or a fraud or whether, in fact, they were real? A. Yes, I requested that.
Q. What were you told? A. I was told no, that people were tired of reading about Henry Lee Lucas.
Page 3627
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
Q. Did the Sun hire a free-lance writer to report the activities of the orange socks trial in San Angelo? A. Yes. That’s when I started work is when the trial was going on in San Angelo. And it was my understanding it was a free-lance writer, because I never saw him in the office.
Q. And did reports come back, then, to Georgetown that Henry Lucas was being heavily drugged while in San Angelo? A. Yes.
Q. Were you ever made aware of a meeting of law enforcement personnel and district attorneys that took place in Austin, Texas, that was called to evaluate the different cases against Henry Lee Lucas? A. Yes.
Q. Are you aware of the result of that meeting that took place in Austin? A. Yes. I interviewed Ed Walsh, who was then the district attorney of Williamson County, and they had selected three places where Henry would be tried next, three towns.
Q. Was this a cooperative effort? Was it your understanding that this was a cooperative effort among prosecutors in Texas as to where he would be
Page 3628
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
tried next? A. Yes.
Q. And - -
A. So they wouldn’t have prosecutors fighting over who gets him next.
Q. Okay. And who got Henry Lee Lucas, do you recall? You don’t recall? A. No, I can’t remember.
Q. But you do recall there was such a meeting? A. Yes.
MS. SIPES: Thank you. I pass the witness - - Oh, wait.
Q. (BY MS. SIPES) Do you recall whether or not sheriff Boutwell or Texas Ranger Prince ever wished that Henry had confessed to any cases in Hawaii? A. Yes. Boutwell asked me - - or told me when we were just shooting the breeze and he said that he wished they could talk Henry into admitting he’d actually been in Hawaii sometime so they could fly over there with Henry for a nice Hawaiian vacation.
MS. SIPES: Thank you. Pass the witness.
Page 3629
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
BY MS. PENNOCK:
Q. I assume you took that as a joke and wished you could go to Hawaii, too? A. I’m not sure it was a joke.
Q. Well, did you see them taking off to Hawaii? A. No, Henry’s never left.
Q. What? A. Henry said he never left.
Q. They didn’t tell him that he had to say he had been there so they could all go to Hawaii, did they? A. I don’t know. I wasn’t with Henry 24 hours a day.
Q. I’d like to go back and ask you a few questions about your background. Okay? A. Yes.
Q. Tell me exactly what your college education is.
A. Major in communications, emphasis in journalism with a minor - - it’s referred to as criminology, but at Weber State it was a discipline called police science.
Q. Did you receive a degree? A. Yes.
Page 3630
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
Q. What degree did you receive? A. Bachelor, communications, emphasis in journalism with a minor in police science.
Q. What year? A. ’81.
Q. Where have you worked since then? A. I worked for the student newspaper while I was in school. I then worked for the Ogden Standard Examiner while I was in school.
Then when I graduated, I moved to Wyoming and worked for a daily in Rock Springs and then I moved to Texas.
Q. Okay. Let’s try to tie that down a little bit. When did you move to Wyoming? A. ’81.
Q. What month?
A. June.
Q. June of 1981? A. Yes.
Q. You moved to Wyoming and you worked for a daily in Rock Springs?
A. Yes.
Q. What was the name of that paper? A. Rocket Miner.
Page 3631
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
Q. How long were you employed with that newspaper? A. June ’81 until August ’83.
Q. What did you do in August of 1983? A. Moved to Texas.
Q. What was your reason for leaving the Daily Rocket Springs, Daily Rock Spring or Rocket - -
A. Daily - -
Q. I can’t read my writing.
A. Rock Spring - - It’s called the Rock Springs Daily Rocket Miner.
Q. Okay. So why did you leave in August of 1983, that job? A. I moved to Austin, Texas, with a friend who got accepted into the university to work on his master’s.
Q. And did you become employed in Austin? A. No.
Q. When were you next employed? A. I did free-lance work for small newspapers in Oak Hill, Cedar Park, until I got a full-time job with the Williamson County Sun.
Q. When you were free-lancing for Oak Hill and Cedar Park, when was that? A. That would be - - Let’s see. I can’t
Page 3632
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
remember. I can’t recall specific dates.
Q. Approximately.
A. It would be between - - be between August ’83 to March ’84.
Q. Is that when you wre living in Austin? A. Yes.
Q. So then in March of ’84, what happened jobwise? A. I got a full-time job with the Williamson County Sun.
Q. Where did you live then? A. Austin.
Q. Where do you live now? A. Ogden, Utah? Q. When - - How long were you at the Williamson County Sun? How long did you work there, from March of ’84 - -
A. March of ’84 until June of ’86.
Q. Why did you leave? A. My friend got his master’s degree and I had a job offer in Utah, so we packed our bags and headed north.
Q. That would have been in June of ’86? A. Yes.
Q. How are you currently employed? Page 3633
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
A.I’m a reporter for the Associated Press.
Q. Did you take notes regarding what you saw and heard there regarding henry Lee Lucas? A. Sometimes, yes.
Q. Did you use them to refresh your memory before testifying here today? A. No.
Q. I believe it was your testimony - - And if I misstate something, please correct me. I was trying to write and my writing may not be exact and I’m not trying to put words in your mouth. But I believe you said that you saw defendant, Henry Lucas, in both the task force office occasionally and also in the booking area.
A. Yes.
Q. What would he be doing in the booking area? A. Hanging out.
Q. Where - - Can you describe the physical location of the booking area in regards to the task force office? A. Yes. When you walked into the sheriff’s office, you would come into the main offices. Then you would turn a corner and go down this long narrow hallway. On your right in the hallway were the task force offices. If you kept going straight, you would
Pahe 3634
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
Be in the booking area.
Q. Approximately how far was the booking area from the task force offices? A. 20 feet, if that far.
Q. Would it be fair to say that the booking area was immediately adjacent to the task force office? A. Yes.
Q. Now, I take it there is a vending machine there somewhere.
A. Yes, right when you walk into the sheriff’s office, before you go into the main office down the hallway to the booking area, right where you walk in the front door of the building. I guess it’s a small lobby or - -
Q. So basically we’re talking a vending machine in the lobby area? A. Uh-hum, yes.
Q. Not a vending machine put in Henry Lee Lucas’ cell or put in for henry Lee Lucas but a vending machine in the lobby? A. Yes.
Q. Is that correct? A. Yes.
Q. And I take it that someone took out ice
Page 3635
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
Cream and put in a different flavor. Is that correct? A. That’s what my - - my impression. That’s what I was told by the jailers.
Q. I assume as a reporter that you don’t print everything you hear on the front page of a newpaper? A. No.
Q. We also have standards in the courtroom of what is credible and what is not.
A. I understand.
Q. So did you talk to the person who was responsible for the vending machine? A. No.
Q. Do you have any direct personal knowledge from the person who made the change in the machine why he made the change in the machine? A. No.
Q. You have indicated a number of things that you observed taking place, I guess, in the booking area and in the task force office. Is that correct? A. Yes.
Q. And you described a little room where you saw and heard these things. Could you tell me - - Okay, now that you have explained to me - - And I haven’t been there. And now that you have explained
Page 3636
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
To me about the long hallway and how the task force and the booking area was, put your little room that you’re in with that.
A.Okay. You’re in the booking area. You back up and you go to the main task force office. Then you back up and there is a small room where interrogations took place at that time. They were adjacent. The task force office and the small room were adjacent.
Q. Now, this interrogation room, who used it for interrogation purposes? A. Task force officers and the out-of-town or out-of-state law enforcement agencies that would come in.
Q. Was any sort of recording equipment in there that you observed? A. At times, yes.
Q. What type of recording equipment did you see in there? I don’t mean the brand name but like a little tape recorder or video equipment or what? A. Tape recorders.
Q. Did you ever observe video equipment? A. I can’t remember.
Q. So if this was the interrogation room that agencies used to interrogate Henry Lee Lucas, I
Page 3637
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
Assume that you weren’t in that room during interrogations. Is that correct? A. Not inside the room, no.
Q. But you used this room basically to eavesdrop on task force offices? A. I’m paid to eavesdrop, yes.
Q. I know. I understand that. Okay, so you’re paid to do it. But basically you were eavesdropping in that little room on what was going on in the task force offices? A. Yes. And I also had the Texas Rangers explain to me how - - or their methods of questioning.
Q. Well, not at the same time you were eavesdropping? A. No. That’s true.
Q. Let’s talk about the eavesdropping - -
A. Okay.
Q. - - a little bit. How often did you eavesdrop? A. Frequently.
Q. I think you said that you went to work there in March of 1984. Is that correct? A. Yes.
Q. Is that when you started going to the task force area and seeing the task force and the
Page 3638
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
Defendant, in March of 1984? A. No. Henry was in San Angelo then. I was going down to the jail every day going through the bookings and offense reports.
Q. When did you first start observing this interaction between the task force and the defendant? A. I think it was April sometime, during the month of April.
Q. So sometime around April of ’84? A. Yes.
Q. What time period did you use the little room to eavesdrop? A. Any time.
Q. No. From April of ’84 to when? How long did this go on? How long did you have an opportunity to observe the Texas Rangers interact with the defendant? A. Oh, I would have to remember when they - - when Henry left to go to Waco. I can’t remember. I can’t remember the specific dates that they took Henry to Waco for the grand jury up there.
Q. Approximately? A. I don’t know. I can’t remember.
Q. Okay. Can you give me an approximate time period, four months, six months, two years, ten
Page 3639
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
years, an approximate time period? A. More than a year.
Q. Okay. So for more than one year how frequently did you eavesdrop? A. Oh, twice a day. If I was down there twice a day.
Q. For what length of time? A. Well, if it was interesting, maybe a half hour.
Q. If it wasn’t, two or three minutes? A. Yes.
Q. So twice a day for two to three to a half hour. So basically anywhere from five minutes a day to an hour a day. Is that fair? A. No, that’s not fair.
Q. Okay. What would be fair? A. The longest would be a half hour.
Q. Total for the whole day? A. Yeah.
Q. Okay. So somewhere between five minutes to a half hour? A. When Henry was in town.
Q. Per day, when defendant was in town.
A. And when he had the interviews. Some days he wouldn’t be interviewed.
Page 3640
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
Q. Okay. Would you say that it was approximately one day a week, approximately three days a week, five days? Approximately how many days a week did you do this? A. If they had interviews set up all week for law enforcement officers, I would be there five days a week.
Q. Okay. When you were in the little interrogation room, was there any way where you could see what was going on in the task force room or did you merely listen? A. Sometimes both.
Q. Okay. Do you think the Texas Rangers figured out you were next door watching? A. I don’t know.
Q. Okay. You indicate, I think, at several times you confronted Sheriff Boutwell with, you know, how about your interview techniques and confessions you’re taking. Is that correct? A. Yes.
Q. Did it become apparent to him, do you think, in your discussions with him that you were aware of the interview techniques they were using and the confessions they were taking? A. Yes, I’m sure.
Page 3641
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
Q. Did they do anything to bar you from seeing essentially what was going on? A. Yes, at one point, they did. As a matter of fact, they threw me out of the building.
Q. When was that? A. I can’t remember the exact date.
Q. If not a date, the circumstance.
A. Well, it was about a goat story that - -
Q. A what? A. A goat. I did a goat story that Boutwell said I made him look bad and he didn’t want me hanging around the task force offices anymore, so they threw me out of that area. If I wanted the bookings, they had to bring it back to me in the front office. That lasted about a month, I guess.
Q. Did the goat story tie in to Henry Lee Lucas in some way? A. No.
Q. It had nothing to do with the defendant? A. No.
Q. He got mad at you about something else, basically? A. Yes. But when Boutwell got mad at me, he cut me off from the task force and Henry, also.
Q. My point is that because you confronted him
Page 3642
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
About their interview techniques and because you confronted him about the confessions, he didn’t say, “That’s it. You can’t watch what we’re doing anymore. You can’t talk to Henry Lucas,” did he? A. Well, but he needed me. Boutwell needed me. He needed the press because the people of the community were getting upset with Henry in the jail.
Q. Were giving him good press? A. He thought so at the time.
Q. What did you think? Did you think you were giving him good press? A. Oh, I was giving him what he was feeding me. I mean, I was printing what - - I was writing what he was feeding me.
Q. You didn’t think it was true? A. Not everything that I wrote. I mean, being an objective reporter had nothing to do with my personal feelings.
Q. So being an objective reporter meant reporting whatever you were told regardless of whether or not you believed it to be the truth? You helped them along with their hoax. Is that what you’re saying? A. Well, I don’t believe so.
Q. Do you think that reporters - - I guess this
Page 3643
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
is kind of an ethical question and I don’t mean to suggest the answer. I’ll ask you what it is.
I mean, is your ethical obligation to print merely whatever one side tells you or to try to determine what the truth is? A. Well, you don’t print what one side tells you. You try to get all sides of the story and - - but in a case like this, you don’t have access to all sides.
Q. So if for some reason you only have access to one side of the story, you just print that side? A. Id that’s all you’re allowed to do with the publications you’re working for, yes.
Q. I think you indicated that in school that you had basically learned two techniques of questioning. What are those techniques? A. Could you be more specific?
Q. Well, I wanted you to be more specific. I’m feeding back to you what I thought you said.
You said you went to school, that you learned interviewing techniques and you basically learned two techniques. Did I write it down wrong or - -
A.Well, I learned the art of interviewing in the aspect of the journalist and the art of interviewing in the aspect of a law enforcement
Page 3644
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
officer. And I’m not very articulate, so I can’t - - I don’t know how to explain the techniques of journalistic or police.
Q. Were either one of those techniques the technique that I’m using with you today? A. Well, the art of interviewing being an attorney, I don’t know. I guess.
Q. Basically, I take it, you’re assuming that the task force should have somehow used some sort of technique that you learned in school. Is that correct? A. Well - -
Q. You know, I don’t know. You said that you judged their technique to be the wrong technique, that you had learned two techniques and it wasn’t the technique you learned. So I’m trying to get you to be more specific about what it is you know to be right and wrong about interviews.
A. Okay. What I learned in police science during interrogation is you do not feed your suspect information.
Q. Okay. That’s a specific thing you felt was improper. You had learned you don’t feed the suspect information and you felt they were feeding the suspect information. Is that what you’re saying?
Page 3645
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
Yes.
Q. Okay. Anything else or does that encompass all of it? A. That was my major concern, yes.
Q. Now, basically, if I understand you correctly, what you mean by feeding information was that you would be in the little interrogation room and the Texas Rangers or someone- - I’m not sure you put a name on who. Who was it that you saw, specifically, going over the synopses with the defendant? A. Clayton Smith.
Q. Anybody else? A. No. That was Clayton’s job.
Q. Okay. So what you’re saying goes directly to Clayton Smith. Is that correct? A. At the beginning of each case, yes, Clayton would talk to Henry.
Q. I missed part of what you said in my notes. You said something about mail-in cases, and I wasn’t sure I understood how you said that you were aware of the mail-in cases. Tell me what - - how you were aware of mail-in cases.
A. I saw them. I saw them delivered every day, and I would ask who was inquiring about a certain
Page 3646
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
case and they would tell me.
Q. So you saw envelopes come and you knew that those were cases? A. That’s what I was told.
Q. By whom? A. Task force members. They would always show me, you know, “The mail is big today. We got ten cases coming in.” Some days a little slower.
Q. So then you’re saying that Clayton smith sat down with the defendant to try to determine whether or not the defendant was responsible for those cases? A. Yes.
Q. Did he always say he was responsible? A. No. I was told at one time they ran 2,000 cases by him.
Q. Who told you? A. Bob Prince.
Q. And he certainly never admitted to 2,000 murders, did he? A. No.
Q. Okay. So Clayton Smith sat there and reviewed apparently some information with the defendant about cases that came in through the mail. Is that correct? A. Yes.
Page 3647
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
Q. And basically he would say, we are talking about an adult male or an adult female or a male child or a female child, did not give him the manners of death, said indoors or outdoors. That’s basically what I wrote down of what you said he gave him.
A. Yes, just a general.
Q. In other words, he didn’t say “I’ve got a mail-in case from Wisconsin. Did you ever go to Wisconsin?”
A. Yes, that was part of it. Also the place, the state, the town, indoors, outdoors.
Q. What I was getting at - -
A. The date.
Q. Okay. And so you, I guess, at some point asked to interview the defendant. That’s the double murder in Wyoming. Is that the only time you ever interviewed the defendant? A. No.
Q. How many times did you interview the defendant? A. For a publication or just - -
Q. How many times did you have an occasion to do more than say hi in the hallway? A. Practically every day that he wasn’t out of town.
Page 3648
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
Q. Did he appear to be heavily drugged or sedated there? A. No.
Q. Did he seem to know where he was and what he was doing? A. Yes.
Q. So basically at some point you decided that you were going to try and give him a case and see if he would take it. Is that what happened? A. Yes.
Q. When was this? A. The first time I interviewed him, April - - I think it was the first - - one of the first encounters with him, yes.
Q. So April of ’84, one of your first encounters? A. Yes. It could have been a little later, but it wouldn’t be late ’85.
Q. Did it ever occur to you that maybe he was doing just what Bob Prince or Sheriff Boutwell said, pull your leg a little bit? A. Yes.
Q. I think Ms. Sipes asked you if you were a friend of Clemmie Schroeder, and you said, “Well, not a friend but an acquaintance.”
Page 3649
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
Yes.
Q. Would you please describe your relationship with her? A. Professional. I interviewed her for stories.
Q. Okay. I believe that Ms. Sipes asked you if Sister Clemmie confided in you, and I think you agreed with that. Was that professional confidence or did she confide in you on a personal basis? A. Personal.
Q. In other words, things that weren’t for publication? A. Yes.
Q. Did you treat her nicely to encourage her to confide in you? A. I wasn’t nice to Clemmie so she wuld confide in me, if that’s what you are trying to say, no.
Q. Well, it’s not a very good interview technique if you want to get information from them to treat tem kind of nasty, is it? If you had been nasty to Sister Clemmie, she might not have confided in you on a personal basis, would she?
A. I like Clemmie.
Q. I’m not saying that you dislike her and I’m not saying you had a reason to treat her nasty. I’m
Page 3650
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
Just saying that it wouldn’t have been a very good way to get information, would it? A. Well, no.
MS. PENNOCK: I’ll pass the witness.
BY MS. SIPES:
Q. Did you ever break any of those confidences that Clemmie shared with you? A. No.
Q. They were kept personal and confidential? A. Yes.
Q. You never used what she told you in confidence for a professional purpose? A. No.
MS. SIPES: Thank you. I pass the witness.
THE COURT: Thank you.
MS. PENNOCK: The state passes. No further questions.
THE COURT: Now, who is next? We’ve just got to 4:30.
MR. PONTON: Your Honor, the next witness is Freddie Bonilla, who is a former captain of the sheriff’s office of El Paso.
THE COURT: How long is he going to take?
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
MR. PONTON: He’ll take a while. He was going to testify about five or six murders.
THE COURT: Who do you have coming in tomorrow morning? Tell me about my morning.
MR. PONTON: I WAS PLANNING ON Freddie Bonilla taking up most of that morning, Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right.
MS. SIPES: Your Honor? THE COURT: Yes.
MS. SIPES: If I could ask the Court’s indulgence, I was notified this past weekend that - - by telephone that my client, Mr. Lucas, was in a cell in which it was 100 degrees in the El Paso County jail and that the nurse there in the jail had stated that no other cell over there is that hot nor is any other prisoner being treated in that manner. I assume that this was some problem that was taking place because of the changing in the climate from summer to fall and that it would be taken care of and didn’t want to cause any problems.
My client has informed me that since Sunday that each and every time he has been in the cell, including all night long, including last night up until the time he was here this morning, it is 100 degrees and they told him that there is nothing that
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
They can do about it.
And I guess what I’m doing now is saying that I am trying to - - I’m filing a writ of habeas corpus here from the floor of this Court stating that he is being treated illegally by the sheriff of El Paso County and being treated inhumanely, and I’m requesting that this condition be changed.
THE COURT: Well, Ms. Sipes, the only thing I can tell you is that I don’t think that our sheriff You know, I’ve talked to him before concerning this case, and every time I’ve talked to him about it it seems to me like he’s treated this prisoner as well or better than most. In other words, he’s always had his telephone and TV.
And I’ll tell you what I’ll do. I will talk to the sheriff and ask him, but I’m certainly not going to go over there and run the jail. But I - - From what I’m told and from what little bit I know about it, I think our sheriff has done wonderfully - - wonderfully well under the circumstances.
You know, we’ve had him back and forth, and he is a high profile person that seems to just love to talk on that telephone to his friends out here and the press and I don’t know who else. But he evidently has full use of all of those media things.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
So - - But I will do this. I will talk to the sheriff and ask him if indeed what you have heard is true and if there is anything that can be done about it because, you know, certainly we don’t want this. We don’t want Mr. Lucas to have any bad moments.
I’ll see you all tomorrow morning at 9:00.
(An evening recess was taken.)
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 516-2100
Editor's note: this is the official transcript and it runs verbatim, as the archive's rule for court records requires; nothing has been summarised or cut. Vic Feazell was the McLennan County prosecutor who convened the Waco grand jury that investigated the Lucas confessions in 1985 and concluded that most of them were false; his testimony here is the prosecutor’s side of the story the Aynesworth pages tell from the press side. These are the final pages of the transcript held in the magazine’s files. This archive records Henry Lee Lucas with eleven convictions, around three of them regarded as credible, against some six hundred confessions; the questioning in these pages is part of the mechanism by which that gap opened. It belongs to the El Paso County case and the 120th Judicial District, not to the Clay County trial already published as TRANSCRIPTS FROM THE TRIAL OF HENRY LEE LUCAS. Nothing said under oath in a transcript is a finding of fact, and Lucas in particular said a great many things that were not true.