By Christi Punteney
The El Paso County hearing continues, transcribed from the official record: the grand jury testimony and then the trial testimony of Clementine Schroeder, followed by Betty Sandlin. It runs verbatim. Pages 3116 to 3301.
CLEMENTINE SCHROEDER,
Having been first duly sworn by the Court to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, was examined and testified as follows:
BY MS. SIPES:
Q. Would you state your name for the record, please, ma’am? A. Clementine Schroeder.
Q. Where do you reside, Ms. Schroeder? A. Georgetown, Texas.
Q. Do you use another name? A. The prisoners call me Sister Clemmie.
Q. Okay. Let’s go a little bit into your background, Ms. Schroeder.
Where were you born and reared? A. I was born in Beasley, Texas, but I was raised in Ezzell near Victoria.
Q. Can you tell us - - What part of Texas is that? Is that - -
A. South. Between Corpus and Houston.
Q. Okay. Were you raised in town or - -
A. No, on a ranch, a cattle ranch.
Q. After you left that area of Texas, where did
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
you go.
A.I went to Cincinnati Conservatory of Music to study music.
Q. And did you obtain any type of a degree there? A. No. I studied three years there and I met my husband, Raymond Schroeder, and we were married. And when he graduated, we moved to Boston and then I started studying at Boston University while he was working on his master’s.
Q. Did you obtain a degree there, and if so, would you describe it? A. Certificate of piano pedagogy, but I was expecting my second child and so I still have a few credit hours for the diploma, for the bachelor’s. But I have the certificate for teaching piano.
Q. You stated you met your husband back in Cincinnati. Is that correct? A. Yes.
Q. Was he working on a degree at that time? A. Yes, in music.
Q. Did he obtain a degree? A. Yes.
Q. In what area? A. Several. He is a professor at Southwestern
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
University now.
Q. Does he have his doctorate? A. Almost.
Q. The two of you and your children eventually then returned to Texas. Is that correct?
A. Right.
Q. And your husband commenced teaching there at the University of Texas at Austin? A. Yes - - No - - Well, at UT for eight years and then at Georgetown at Southwestern.
Q. And you ended up living, then, in Georgetown, Texas. Is that correct? A. Yes.
Q. And are you presently married? A. No, I’m not.
Q. Okay. And you have three children. Is that right? A. Right.
Q. Are any of your children residing with you? A. The youngest, Kathy, who is 18.
Q. How do you earn a living, Ms. Schroeder? A. I teach piano and I do home nursing for the terminally ill and the elderly.
Q. And I believe you stated that you are known as Sister Clemmie. Is that correct?
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EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Among prisoners, yes.
Q. Can you tell us why that is? A. When I got into the jail ministry, I went with a Pentecostal preacher lady and she introduced me as Sister Clemmie. Everyone was sister or brother so-and-so, or sister, and she introduced me as Sister Clemmie. And three weeks later she was sick and I took over the ministry and so the name just stuck.
Q. Your ministry was centered, as I understand it, around the jail in Georgetown, Texas. Is that correct?
A. Most of it, yes. But I did go to other prisoners in the Jackson County jail. When I go visit mother, I go there, too.
Q. Can you tell me what you did for the prisoners in Georgetown, Texas? A. I brought the good news of the - - of Jesus Christ. I did not teach any denomination but just the word of God, the Bible. I gave Christian books. I ministered to them on a one-on-one basis.
Many of them I got involved with the families and there would be money problems and different things, that I would lead them to different sharing places for needs or collected money for their groceries.
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I gave haircuts to prisoners that needed it. I washed their clothes, the ones that would have dirty clothes and they would be going before the judge, and I helped prisoners when they were on probation to find jobs.
Q. In that capacity did you have the opportunity to visit in the Williamson County jail there in Georgetown in December of 1983? A. Yes.
Q. And what was your purpose of going there on Christmas Eve of - - in 1983? A. Well, a few days prior to that, the prisoners were all depressed with Christmas coming and so to get their spirits going, I told them that if they would write letters and do drawings and poetry and stuff that I would take it to the elderly, to the nursing home where the elderly that would not be seeing guests would receive something. And they were all enthusiastic about that project.
And so at the time I was going there to pick up their projects, and I had Bibles and fruit for the prisoners and I knew exactly how many were there and I was distributing Christmas things.
Q. Okay.
A. And picking up things.
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Q. And did anyone in particular request a Bible of you on that evening? A. No. But when I was leaving, I had one Bible left. And I just said, “Lord, did I forget someone?” because I had a Bible left. And I knew how many prisoners were there. And then I just felt it was Henry Lucas.
So I went to a trusty and I asked where his cell was and he pointed it out. And it was the cell there and I went.
Q. Will you describe briefly for the Court what type of cell Mr. Lucas was in? A. It was a steel enclosure, no bars, no windows, very poorly lit. And I had to kneel down. There was a little food slot door where they would pass the food in and I knelt down in this little narrow slot so I could see him and asked if he would like a Bible.
Q. What was his reply? A. Yes, that he had been wanting one. And I told him at the time, I said, “Well, you may have this one if you won’t use it for cigarette paper, you know, or misuse it.”
And he said, “Oh, no, I won’t. I’ll read it.”
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And I had my 18-year-old daughter - - at that time she wasn’t 18, but I don’t recall how old - - and I introduced her. And I also had my son-in-law and I introduced him to Henry.
Q. And did you give Mr. Lucas a Bible? A. Yes, I did.
Q. What were you told by the jail officials about any future communication with Mr. Lucas? A. That I was not allowed to talk to him or to minister to him or give him any type of Christian word.
Q. Was there another young lady there who was ministering to the jail there in Georgetown by the name of Sharon Lomburg? A. Yes, she was with the jail ministry.
Q. Did she give Mr. Lucas any materials? A. She did not recognize who he was and - - at this time he was moved upstairs from the first floor to the second floor and she didn’t recognize him. And she gave him two books and she was kicked out of the jail ministry. She was told she could not come back to the jail.
Q. Did Mr. Lucas later contact you and ask you to pray for him? If so, would you describe that incident briefly to the Court?
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A.The next day I was there after Sharon got kicked out of the jail ministry. I was walking and I heard someone say, “Sister, will you pray for me?” And I looked and it was Henry.
And this time he was in another cell and the food slot was maybe a 14-by-14 opening, face level that you didn’t have to - -
Q. What was your reply? A. And my reply was, “I’m afraid I can’t.” And he moved away from the opening, and he said, “Oh, I’m sorry.”
And I said, “Oh, I’m not afraid of you. I’m afraid of getting kicked out.” And I said, “I can’t be seen talking to you. I’ve got to go.”
And he said, “Well, just answer me. If you were allowed to teach me the word of God, would you?”
And I said, “You know I would, and I hope and pray.” And I left.
Q. Briefly describe to the Court what happened thereafter.
A. So as I was leaving, I heard Henry say, “Well, I’ll see about that.” And a few days later I read in the newspaper how Henry was not cooperating and refused to talk to any lawmen or discuss anything, and he wasn’t eating and he wasn’t talking.
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And I thought, oh, I wondered if he is, you know, insisting that I be able to minister to him. And a few days followed, and it was Sheriff Boutwell and he called me up and asked if I would be Henry Lucas’ minister and if so, I would have to be locked in the catwalk to minister to him.
Q. So it’s your statement, then, you saw in the papers there after Henry Lee Lucas had asked you to teach him to pray that Henry Lee Lucas had refused to cooperate with law enforcement officers. Is that correct? A. Right. Yes.
Q. And shortly thereafter, Sheriff Boutwell, the sheriff of Williamson County, calls you and asks you to become the personal minister to Henry Lee Lucas? A. Right. Yes.
Q. And that you would have to be locked in a catwalk in order to do so? A. Uh-huh.
Q. And did you then commence the ministry of Henry Lee Lucas at the sheriff’s request? A. Yes, I did.
Q. And can you tell the Court briefly what that ministry entailed?
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A.The ministry entailed Bible studies. Eventually it also opened up to oil painting, because he was in solitary so long. And I asked if he could - - would be allowed to oil paint because I do oil painting.
And we prayed daily. And eventually I took care of all of his mail because he would receive a lot of mail. And it was learning of the Lord and oil painting.
Q. Okay. And was he still in the same cell that you described earlier as being a steel enclosure with, now, a 14-by-14 opening? A. Yes. And on the other side of the catwalk where two windows with good light for oil painting and he could see out. I mean, he could see the trees and tell daylight from night.
Q. Did he eventually change cells? A. No, he remained in that cell all the time.
Q. Did you have bars? A. Only bars between his cell and the catwalk. But from - - You couldn’t see Henry. It was all enclosed, but when you would unlock a solid steel door, it would open into a small catwalk and there would be bars and a chair there for me to sit on.
Q. Can you tell the Court what items were
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included in that jail cell? A. When I left, it took me two car trips with the back seat filled and the trunk filled. I mean, it just kept filling up and filling up with stuff. Color TV, electric coffee pot, peanut butter, all different paint, easels, pillows, clothing.
Q. Can you describe for us the hours that you were allowed to see Henry Lee Lucas in that jail? A. Because of my piano teaching and everything, I was eventually given freedom to seven days a week, 24-hours a day. I could come any time.
Q. Okay.
A. And I think that was Henry’s request.
MS. SIPES: May I approach the witness, Your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes, ma’am.
Q. (BY MS. SIPES) Ms. Schroeder, I would hand you what has been denominated Defendant’s Exhibit 13, I believe, and ask you if you recognize that photograph? A. Yes.
Q. And what does that appear to be?
A. His cell.
Q. And is that an accurate representation of his living quarters there?
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Yes.
Q. In the jail? A. Uh-huh.
Q. And I’ll hand you what has been denominated Defense Exhibit 12 and ask you if you can describe that briefly to the Court? A. This is Hutch. That used to be the head jailer. And this is inside Henry’s cell. As you can see, this is all walls around this way, and the bars are between the catwalk and his cell.
Q. Okay. And there is the color television. Is that correct? A. Oh, yes.
Q. And he has probably 12 different canvases in there he has been painting on? A. Uh-huh.
Q. Has a box of items. Does he have a mirror? A. Yes.
Q. And does he - -
A. All those - - You can see a cassette tape. No one was allowed tape players and he had a tape deck. He had all these Styrofoam cups. Other prisoners would be given one every two weeks, one cup.
Q. And he has a whole stack of cups there in a plastic sack?
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He would also have loaves of bread in there.
Q. Looks like there is some Cheeze-O’s or Fritos there in the cell? A. Other prisoners have that, too, but, I mean, no one has a whole loaf of bread. He got whatever he wanted from the kitchen.
Q. Tell us about Henry’s eating habits there at the jail, would you, please.
A. When I first knew Henry, the trusty or the cook would cook special meals for him, okay? And then eventually when he was having a lot of stomach problems and everything, I took over and I would bring him lunch and supper, and he didn’t eat breakfast.
And he had coffee around the clock. The jailers would bring him coffee, and sometimes he would line up three cups and they would pour three cups.
Q. When you say special things for him, were these things that he requested or was it things that - -
A. He liked - - He liked like cheddar cheese. And other prisoners would drink the powdered milk, and he wanted homogenized milk and he got that. He liked bananas and they ordered bananas and stuff for
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him.
Q. Did he ever get to go out to eat there in Georgetown? A. Yes.
Q. Where would he go? A. Well, when I would come there to visit, sometimes he would be eating a Sonic hamburger, be having that.
Q. Did he ever - -
A. The Dairy Queen, drive-in places, you know.
Q. Did he ever get to order pizza in? A. Offhand, I don’t know. But I know I used to order pizza in and go pick it up for him and bring it back. I don’t know if I recall seeing it.
Q. Did he get a daily milkshake there at the jail? A. He and Bob Prince had a thing. Every time he would clear a case, he would get a milkshake. And it got where he would clear so many cases in a day and sometimes Bob would owe him like 14 milkshakes. And Henry would also keep it, a record how many were due him.
Q. And then they would go out and buy the ice cream and fix a milkshake for Mr. Lucas? A. I don’t know who went out and bought. I
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know when Henry went out the rangers, wherever they went, maybe, you know, ask him questions or to towns or something, I know they would always feed him and he would go into restaurants and, you know, wherever he went.
Q. Can you estimate for the Court how many hours a day or how many hours a week you would spend in the company of either Henry Lucas, Sergeant Prince or Sheriff Boutwell or Ranger Clayton Smith? A. I spent at least 35 hours a week there with those people. Then I also spent a longer time, because like when Henry would be with investigators or with Clayton in the task force office, I would be ministering to other prisoners.
Q. Were you allowed to go into Henry Lee Lucas’ cell? A. Never except like when they took some pictures or something like that or someone - - or when when I came back from Cheektowaga - - New York, I had some gifts and they would open the cell because it was a big box and they would let me in to give Henry the box. You know, a guard was always present.
Q. Were you able to see Henry in the company of Sergeant Prince, Sheriff Boutwell and Ranger Clayton Smith?
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Every day. Not the sheriff, but the rangers every day, yes.
Q. But did you see him in the company of the sheriff at times? A. Yes, but not every day. But, yes, very often, yes.
Q. Can you describe for the Court the relationship that you saw develop between Henry Lee Lucas and those three gentlemen if, in fact, you did see such a relationship? A. The whole time there was a mistrust that Henry felt for them, and the whole time I felt I was trying to bridge a gap between them. I wanted us to all be a team and I was always trying to be the peacemaker and keep everyone happy.
Q. Okay. When you first came there to - - When you first came to make the acquaintance of the Texas Rangers and Sheriff Boutwell and their association with Henry Lucas, where you convinced they were working toward good law enforcement? A. Oh, yes. I regarded the Texas Rangers as cream of the crop, dedicated men. And even though I did the jail ministry there two years before, I had never met the sheriff and I came to really feel very close to the sheriff and I admired him.
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Q. And did you attempt, then, to assist them in dealing with the personality of Henry Lee Lucas? A. Yes.
Q. And can you tell us in what way that you attempted to do this? A. Well, they said Henry was ornery and could not make up his mind and that they needed him to go out-of-state to clear up some cases and that they wished that he - - that they could have a definite yes that he would go, because they needed his approval to take him out of the state and that he needed to go. And I was told about the families who would never be able to bury their loved ones unless he would go out-of-state and so this work.
And so I would go and talk to Henry about it, and Henry Lee said that he didn’t have anyone there. And I would go and tell the rangers and the rangers would say - -
Q. Let me interrupt you for a second. You say you would go and talk to Henry?
A. About going.
Q. About going to another state and he would say he didn’t have anyone there. What do you mean?
A. That he said, “I don’t have any - - I didn’t kill anyone. I have been to California before, but I
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haven’t killed anyone there.”
And so I would go back and tell the rangers and the rangers said, “Clemmie, we know that he has, but he represses it. He has repressed it. And serial killers are known for repressing things and if he would go to the site, he can recall things.” Q. Okay. What did Sergeant Prince tell you about serial killers? A. That they repress things because they can’t face what they have done. And Sheriff Boutwell would tell me that - -
Q. What would he say? What would be his words? A. Okay. Let me put myself - - because I have heard this so many times. Let me think of one particular incident.
“Clemmie, you do not understand serial killers, and your duty here is to teach the Bible to Henry. And this is very common among serial killers, that they repress things and they can’t remember.” And from time to time, there would always be either that Henry was - - had - - at the time of the killing was on so much dope or booze that he didn’t remember, and that other times it would be that he could recall everything. He has a fabulous memory.
It was a contradiction constantly of how he
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could recall and why he wasn’t able to recall.
Q. Okay. So am I understanding you right, that Sheriff Boutwell and the Texas Rangers task force would come to you and say, “Go to Henry and convince him to go out-of-state to confess to certain murders”?
A. They did not tell me which murders. They just said that they needed Henry to go to that state to see if he got there if he could - - would be able to clear up any.
They did not say, we need him to sign a confession for blah, blah, blah, or something. I mean, I did not know how many cases or any such thing.
At - - Like for California, I mean, sometimes it would be like a headless woman or one in Little Rock or the Cervenka or a very definite case. But, I mean, a lot of times, these outside trips, they did not say what cases or how many cases or anything.
Q. But it was your understanding they were coming to you and asking you to go to Henry Lucas? A. Right.
Q. And convince him that he should go on trips with them? A. Right.
Q. To, quote, clear up cases? A. Right.
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Q. Okay. Now, who ran that jail? Was it Henry Lee Lucas or was it Sheriff Boutwell or who? A. There was a power struggle all the time. And Sheriff Boutwell would say many times, “Henry, who do you think runs this jail?” And Henry’d say, “Well, you tell me you runs it.”
And many times Henry would demand something, and the sheriff would give in to it. But then the sheriff would also hold over Henry about death row or he would decide who could come in and out of the jail indicating I could be kicked out like Sharon Lomburg was.
Q. Would you be present when these conversations would take place? A. Yes.
Q. And you would hear them talk about who had the most power in the jail? A. They did not use the word power. It was like, “Who do you think runs this jail?” And like Henry would get me to get the sheriff there on a Saturday morning and the sheriff
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Could come in real upset and he’d say, “This is Saturday morning. Do you think you are the only prisoner here?” And Sheriff - - And Henry would answer, “Well, I’m the one that matters the most to you because the trip to West Virginia is off.” And then whenever Henry wanted, Henry got, and the tip was back on.
And I was there during this. I mean, I’m not saying hearsay. I was present during this.
Q. Can you tell us whether Henry ever had anyone appointed to be head jailer or not?
A. Yes. A young woman came in and she was there for two weeks when the head jailer, this man right here, Hutch, went on the road and they needed to replace him.
And Patty came and was talking to Henry and she said, “I sure” - - I was there. She said, “I wish that I could be the head jailer.” And Henry said, “I’ll fix it where you can. I’ll see that you get it.”
And two days later, she was made head jailer. And all of the other jailers were very upset because they had been there for years, and she had a conflict and never won the respect of the other jailers because they resented that.
Q. She was there two weeks and at Henry Lee
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Lucas’ request was appointed head jailer. Is that right? A. About two weeks, two to three weeks.
Q. Okay. Did there come a time just before the trip to West Virginia that Sheriff Boutwell changed the hours in which you could come to the jail? A. Yes. I brought Henry’s supper. I would teach piano until 6:00 or 6:30 on certain days, and I couldn’t get there with his supper until about 7:00.
And I walked up there and there was - -the jailers were grinning and they said, “Well, Sister, you won’t be in - - be able to come anymore because the sheriff put a new ruling that no one can come in after 6:30.”
And I said, “Well, does that include me?” And they said, “Yes. In fact, he made sure that we knew that included you.” So - - And I said, “Well, give Henry his dinner.” And I ran out and I could yell - - He was on the second story and I could yell up to the window to tell Henry.
And he said, “Well, we’ll see about that.” And he was real upset. And that was - - the following morning was Saturday morning and so I went there and I called the sheriff. And so then the sheriff said
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That the trip - - when Henry said, “It’s off. I’m not going to West Virginia,” and he said, “Well, everything is all planned.”
He said, “Well, when I get there I won’t sign anything.” And so Sheriff Boutwell said, “Well, Henry, I owe you an apology because I didn’t explain to you why I did that.” He said, “We were expecting a jailbreak and we were afraid that Sister Clemmie would be used as a hostage, but we don’t have to worry about that anymore because we moved that prisoner so we can take that sign down now.”
Q. Okay. So then were you allowed to then come after 6:30 to the Williamson County jail with Henry’s dinner? A. Any time, yes.
Q. And Henry went on to make his - -
A. West Virginia, yes.
Q. To West Virginia to confess to the number of a policeman. Is that correct? A. Uh-huh.
Q. And do you recall a time before Henry Lee Lucas went to Waco, was subpoenaed up there by the grand jury when Sheriff Boutwell came to you and told you that since you and your husband were divorcing
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And your husband was going to marry another woman that it would be best for you to leave town and go down to south Texas to the ranch for four to six months? A. Yes.
Q. Would you tell the Court briefly about that conversation? A. The conversation was that there was gossip going on in town, and I wasn’t aware of any gossip but then I’m not aware of a lot of things. And so he said, “We feel like this would be best for you.”
At this time I was asking a lot of questions and not getting any answers. And so I said, “Okay. I’ll go to the ranch, but I want” - -
Q. Let me interrupt you. Did Sheriff Boutwell come up with the idea that you were to go to the ranch for four to six months? A. Yes.
Q. This was not your idea? A. No.
Q. You didn’t volunteer? A. No.
Q. Okay.
A. So I said, “I want to be there when you tell Henry, because I don’t want to tell Henry why I’m
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going because he might think I’m leaving on my own.”
So he said, “Well, let’s take care of that right now.”
We went down to the task force, and Clayton and Bob Prince was there and Henry was sitting there and they were going over some cases. And so the sheriff said, “Henry, we know that you don’t want people gossiping about Sister Clemmie and this is a bad thing about her husband remarrying and everything and it’s causing some gossip, and I think it would be best for all concerned if she would go to the ranch and live with her mother for four to six months.”
And Henry said, “When she goes, I go.” And Sheriff Boutwell said, “What do you mean?”
And he said, “I’m going on to death row when she goes.” And he said, “The game is over.”
And I looked around, I thought, “What are they talking about, the game? And I could tell everyone knew except me what Henry meant by the game.
And then Bob Prince jumped up and said, “Well, Sheriff, I don’t think she should be doing this. She is trying to hide. I think we need to stand by her and support her and she needs to stay
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right here where she is.”
And they all said, “Yeah, I think so,” you know. So that’s how that was.
Q. And was that something - -
A. So I didn’t go to the ranch.
Q. What was Henry’s conception of death row? What did death row mean to Henry?
A. No hope. The end. It was the big monster in his life.
Q. It meant that he would die, did it not? A. Right. I mean, he did not see himself going to death row and ever getting off of death row.
Q. Did he feel that he would either be executed or killed by another prisoner? A. Yes. He felt like if he were to - - if he wasn’t executed, he would be killed like for fame like Billy the Kid or something.
Q. Before you and your husband were divorced, after you had just met Henry Lee Lucas, you and your husband went on an annual trip to New York State? A. Right.
Q. IS that correct? A. New York state, uh-huh.
Q. And can you tell the Court a little bit about what arrangements were made for Henry Lee Lucas
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to keep in contact with you while you were in New York State? A. I was called at home and asked to come to the jail. When I got there, Sheriff Boutwell said, “You know, you have done such a wonderful job with Henry Lucas we just never could get him to cooperate the way you can get him to cooperate, and we are concerned if he is going to continue cooperating when you’re gone for seven weeks and we would like for you to make him promise that he will cooperate while you are gone.”
And I said, “Oh, of course, he will cooperate, you know. He doesn’t need me to make him cooperate.” And he called the jailer to bring Henry down, and Henry came down and Sheriff Boutwell said, “Henry, Clemmie wants you to make a promise to her that you will cooperate. Will you cooperate?”
And Henry said, “Yeah, yeah, I’ll cooperate.” And I thought he looked real, you know, I thought, what is the big deal about cooperating? And Henry looked very down at that time.
And so sheriff said, “Well, I’ll tell you what, Henry,” he said, “you will be able to call Sister Clemmie every two or three days. We can
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Arrange that you can talk to her and pray with her over the phone every two or three days.” And so Henry perked up, you know.
When I got to Cheektowaga, New York, I received a letter saying how he does not want to be going and they are making him go places he doesn’t want to, but he is keeping the promise he made to me.
And I said, “Oh, Lord, you know, what did I make him promise?” You know, I couldn’t understand that it was such a big promise. It just didn’t seem - - It seemed like a normal thing to do is to cooperate with law enforcement.
Q. Okay. Now, up until the time that Henry Lee Lucas was subpoenaed to Waco, Texas, by the grand jury, was it your understanding that Henry Lee Lucas was a mass killer? A. Yes, it was. There were cases that, you know, I would - - he had been talking about or something, and Conroe.
Q. Can you tell us a little bit about the Conroe cases? A. Well, I heard them talk about the Conroe case, so I asked Henry, I said, “Henry” - - I think there were three. And I said, “Henry, did you kill those people in Conroe?”
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And he said, “No.”
And I said, “Well, are they taking you there to confess to them?”
And he said, “Yes.”
And I said, “Well, you can’t.
And he said, “My life is not my own.” And I said, “You can’t.” I said, “The Lord will deal with you severely. You cannot sign confessions that are not yours.”
And I started quoting stuff from the Bible and showing him things from the Bible. And so when they were getting ready to go to Conroe, Sheriff - - Henry looked at Clayton Smith and he said, “I’m not going to plead guilty.”
And Clayton said, “Well, you just do what you have to do,” and then he laughed.
And that evening I was called into Sheriff Boutwell’s office, and he was so angry. He said, “Did you interfere with the Conroe cases?”
And I said, “What do you mean, interfere?”
“Did you talk to Henry about the Conroe cases?” And I said, “Yes,” I said, “I did, and he said he didn’t do them, that he wasn’t even in the state of Texas and I told him that he could not
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confess to them.”
And then Clayton and Bob Prince waked in the sheriff’s office and they sat down and they started saying, your position at this jail is this and this and this. “And that is not your position, to interfere. We know he did the cases in Conroe. And you interfered in a place where you should not.” And I said, “But he claims that he wasn’t even in the state of Texas.” So the called Henry in, and Henry sat down and they started saying, “Why would you do that, Henry? You said you were going to confess. You made us look bad, like we didn’t know what we were doing.”
An Henry just gripped the chair, the arms of the chair. I was sitting next to him and I could see he was real tense. And he said, “I’m telling you I was” - - and I don’t know if he said Pennsylvania or Maryland or something. And he said, “I wasn’t there.”
And they said, “well, you aren’t cooperating, Henry, and you know you’re just going to - - if you want to go to death row now, you can.” And I said, “Sheriff,” I said, “he has been cooperating. He has been taking trips. He has been working 8, sometimes 12 hours a day in that task force.” I said, “I don’t know how you can say he is
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not cooperating.” And I said, “Did you check to see if has - - if he was in Maryland or Pennsylvania or wherever he said he was?”
And so he looked at Clayton and he said, “Did you check that out?”
And Clayton said, “No, sir.” And he said, “Well, all right.”
And I said, “Well, please check it out.”
And he said, “Okay, okay. We will check it out.”
And so they started on Henry again. And Henry said, “All right. All right. All right. Just tell me what you want me to do.” And they said, “We want you to tell the truth. We want you to tell the truth. You killed these people in Conroe.” And I said, “But he doesn’t remember doing it.” And Bob Prince said, “Clemmie, you don’t understand serial killers.” And I said, “But,” I said, “if the repressed the stuff, why is it he can know how many rings someone had on their fingers and the type of jewelry and everything?” I said, “I don’t understand how you can repress something and still know so many details of something else.” And he said, “Well, that’s just how it is
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with serial killers.” So we went up to the cell and I told Henry, I said, “Henry, don’t worry. They will investigate, and if you really repressed it and you did kill those people, you weren’t in Pennsylvania, they will find out, or if you were in Pennsylvania, you didn’t, and they will find out.”
And he said, “You don’t believe them, do you? They won’t investigate. They never have. They haven’t ever investigated where I told them I was.” And - -
Q. Okay. Let’s just - - Let me - - Henry Lee Lucas told you that you that they had - - the Texas Rangers had never investigated as to the real whereabouts of Henry Lee Lucas at the time any of these murders happened? A. That’s what he told me, yeah.
Q. Go ahead.
A. So the time element, I did not know if it was a couple weeks or several days but not more than three weeks, but we were praying and Henry was praying, and he said, “Oh, Lord, forgive me for signing those confessions, but my life is not my own and just keep that killer from killing anyone.”
And I interrupted and I said, “Henry, where
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did you go today?”
And he said, “Conroe.” And I said, “You mean you signed those confessions?” And he just shook his head yes.
And then I started praying and I said, “Lord, let him see that his life is his own and that man can’t control it but that you control it.” And we prayed about that. And he was very concerned, you know.
Q. And did he ever confess to the Conroe cases? A. Yes. That’s what I said. He came back and was praying and in his prayer he said that he had confessed. He was asking God’s forgiveness.
Q. Did he ask that the real killer be found? A. Yes.
Q. Picked up off the streets? A. Yes.
Q. And prevented from killing again? A. Right. And I count not understand, because Bob Prince, you know, when I said, “Well, maybe Henry didn’t do it,” he would say, “You know, Clemmie, who do you think we are? DO you feel like we are the kind of lawmen that would let the real killers out on the street? What do you think we are?”
And then I just felt real, like that, and I
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Just said, “Oh, I’m sorry, no. I’m not accusing you of anything.”
But I was like I hear Bob Prince says that and I hear Henry Lee Lucas saying this prayer, and I think, you know - -
Q. Did you become suspicious that things weren’t quite right there in Georgetown jail or the Williamson County jail? A. Yes, yes.
Q. Did you become aware that Henry Lee Lucas was involved or being questioned about the death of a girl by the last name of Cervenka? A. Yes.
Q. And was this girl who was missing in the Georgetown area? A. Yes. The first think I heard about her was Henry was in San Angelo waiting for the orange socks case to begin. And Sheriff Boutwell called me at home and he told me about - - that he had some - - knows these Catholic people in Taylor, Texas, that their daughter was murdered, and they were a beautiful Christian family and that they - - that he knows that Henry was involved in that case, and if he didn’t that Ottis or one of them did it but that he could not get Henry to confess to it and he would
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appreciate anything I could do and if I would please try to give - - teach Henry that he has to tell the truth, that he cannot be withholding information from them.
Q. He asked you to talk to Henry about the Cervenka case. Is that correct? A. Yes, yes. I went - - The next day I went to San Angelo. And when he - - between the trial for lunch, Sheriff Boutwell set it up where I could eat lunch with him in the jail across from the courthouse, and I brought up the Cervenka girl. And he said, “Sheriff Boutwell asked you to come talk to me about this?”
And I said, “Yes, he did.” And Henry said, “If I would have killed the sheriff’s girl, I would have confesses to that because Ed Walsh and the sheriff told me if I would confess to the Cervenka girl, I would not get capital murder charges put on me.”
Q. On what case? A. Orange socks. And I said, “Isn’t that wrong? Can they do that?”
And he said, “They can do whatever they fell they can do.” And he denied killing the Cervenka girl. And he said, “I don’t even feel like - - maybe she’s not even dead or she wasn’t even murdered.”
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And he said, “I don’t know anything about her because I would have confessed to it if I did.” Q. Did he ultimately confess to the death of the Cervenka girl? A. Yes. Time went on and the pressure never lifted up. And I remember one - - one morning they left real early, maybe like 4:30, they were going to Laredo. And it was some kind of desert place or something, and they walked and walked and walked and walked trying to find on abandoned car.
And Henry said that they picked up the girl at a Minute Market, he and Ottis, and they picked her up at this Minute Market and they drove to Laredo, and they got out there and they murdered her and they abandoned her car.
They went to look and they came back and couldn’t find anything. And Sheriff Boutwell - -
Q. Wait. Let me see if I understand you correctly.
A. Yes.
Q. He confessed saying that he and Ottis had killed the Cervenka girl?
A. Yes.
Q. That they had picked her up at a Minute
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Market in what town? A. Round Rock.
Q. Round Rock, Texas, and that they had taken her in her car, then, down through San Antonio to Laredo? A. Yes.
Q. Where they had killed her and abandoned the car?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay.
A. So I told this, you know, to the sheriff. And the sheriff said, “Well, he can describe” - -
“That’s right?”
Said, “That’s right. He can describe the car, even the dent in the car, what - - the tapes she had in the car and everything, her jewelry and everything. And that’s right, he did kill the Cervenka girl.” As time went on, the - - they finally took Henry to San Antonio. He went with the rangers, I think the sheriff, also, but I’m not sure about that, if the sheriff went along.
But they went to a pawn shop, and this Spanish-speaking lady was there and she said she remembered Henry coming in and Henry had drawn a
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picture of the necklace that the Cervenka girl had worn. And so Henry showed the drawing to this lady, and she told the rangers, yes, I remember him coming in. I remember that necklace very well. My daughter fell in love with it and she has the necklace now.
Q. She identified Henry as having sold her the dead girl’s jewelry? A. Right.
Q. Is that correct? A. Uh-huh. And so they came from San Antonio, and Sheriff Boutwell was so happy. He said, “Now we can clear this case.” He said, you know, “We got everything and we can clear this case. This is done.”
And they will tell Henry what a super job he did. And it was, you know, “Big time, wonderful. What a great thing you did, and everyone from the family is going to appreciate you so much, Henry.” And then when I was in Cheektowaga, I got this telephone call and Henry tells me that they - - he went with the sheriff out there because someone had spotted the car in the lake, and he was there when they pulled the car out and Henry saw the skeleton of this girl and she had the necklace on and it was the Cervenka girl. And she was never murdered. She had epilepsy.
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Q. So the necklace that the eyewitnesses in San Antonio had identified as having been bought by her from Henry Lucas was found on the skeleton of the dead girl - -
A. Right.
Q. - - who had gone off the road? A. Right.
Q. Is that correct? A. Yes. And I - - So, you know - -
Q. So what did Mr. Lucas have to say about this to you on the phone when you were there in New York? A. I said, “Henry, that can’t be,” you know, and I said, “Well, how can you explain that?”
And he said, “I can’t.”
And I said, “Well, what do the rangers say?”
And he said, “It’s not spoken about. It’s just put under the rug.”
Q. And did you begin to get some suspicions then about these confessions? A. Yes. So when I got back, I said, “Henry,” I said, “Let’s pray that you can get a place and confess something and then you can prove that you didn’t do it.” Because I couldn’t understand what was going on. I thought are they using or hypnotizing him or what are they doing? I couldn’t
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understand.
Q. Now, back up. You said, “let’s pray that you can get to a place where you confess to something and prove that you didn’t do it’?
A. Not this Cervenka girl, something else. So it wasn’t very long he went to Galveston, and he took them to the house and he told them if the roses grew - - there was a picket fence, if it grew - - I can’t remember, on the outside or inside of the picket fence. He could describe the house room to room, detail and everything and everything about it.
And so they were all happy that they could clear up that case. And then Henry said, “Oh, let me see. What was the date of that?” And they told him. And he said, “Well, it’s not mine because I was in prison at the time.” And so when they came back, I asked Bob Prince, I said, “How can that be?”
Q. Okay, now. Let me see if I understand you. After you received this phone call in New York, you came back to Georgetown? A. Um-hum.
Q. And you said, “Henry, we’ve got to get to a place where you can confess to a case and then prove what you didn’t do it”?
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Because I was trying to figure out if someone was feeding him information, you know, and if if there was some way we can figure that out, you know.
Q. Okay. And so Henry then went down by Galveston and confessed to some murder? A. Um-hum.
Q. And he knew details about a picket fence and where a rose bush was. Is that correct? A. Uh-huh. If it - - What sides the climbing rose bushed were growing, even on what size, very detailed things.
Q. He knew exactly what house - -
A. The layout of the house, everything.
Q. The layout of the house? A. And he drove them to the scene them to the scene of the crime.
Q. And he purportedly drove them to the scene of the crime? A. Uh-huh.
Q. And he confessed to it? A. Uh-huh.
Q. And then he asked, “What day did this happen?” And when they told him, he says, “Well, this can’t be mine. I was in Michigan prison at that time”? A. Um-hum. So - -
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Q. Do you know what the name of the so-called victim was in that case? A. No, I don’t. So then I said, “Well, what did they do?” You know, there had to be some answers. “What did they do?” And he said, “Nothing.” So I said, “Well, I’m going to find out,” You know.
And Henry said, “No, no. Please, please promise me you will stay out of it. Please don’t be asking questions. Just leave it be. Just leave it be. Don’t, don’t.”
And so I went there and I said, “I want to know - - I want you to explain to me how that could happen.”
And Bob Prince said, “We don’t have to explain to you, but if you want to know the truth, we can’t explain it.” And that was that.
Q. Now, did you then begin to watch how cases were presented to Henry Lee Lucas for his clearing? A. Yes. I started - - I started - - I didn’t - - I could not tell. I just knew something was very wrong and I could not tell.
I thought, what is it the investigators, is it the rangers? I mean - - And any time I would indicate something, it was like - - to think that in
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My mind I thought lawmen would not let someone take a case and the real killer be out there. This just isn’t happening. This isn’t the way the law is set up, you know.
And so there was always this behind me thinking this isn’t going on because nothing like this has ever happened. I never heard of anything like this. I had the highest regard for the rangers. And when the investigators came, they all seemed like dedicated lawmen to me. And still I knew there was something wrong, but I didn’t know what.
And I knew that Henry knew before he would even go to a place, he would really say - - or like California, he would say, “I just hate to go there. When I go there I have to confess to” - - and he would have to be confessing to, you know.
Q. Okay. Now, when you would go down there to the Williamson County jail, would you see the investigators lined up from different jurisdictions getting ready for their appointments with Henry Lee Lucas? A. Yes.
Q. And would you see any of the task force prepare them for the interview, and if so, how would
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they be prepared?
A. Bob Prince would have a ten-minute briefing before the - - before Henry would be brought down from the jail. And sometimes I would be pouring coffee. And I wasn’t - - They would be talking. Bob would be talking to them and telling them that, “This will be a day that you will never forget,” and that - - “Just don’t tell Henry he is a liar because this will upset him.” And that, “Henry gets confused sometimes, that he might get detail-detail information and recall but be like 600 miles off or maybe a year off or something, but he can give you information.” And if he gets off, if they would help him along that it will just come together piece by piece like a puzzle.
And I recall something about this one investigator said, “Well, can we show him live photos?” And they said yes.
Q. So Sergeant Prince would then tell the investigators he will get details right but he may be off as much as 600 miles or as much as a year? A. Or even two, I think he said. I think he said.
Q. “But if you just help him along and piece it together piece by piece just like a puzzle”? A. It would come together like a puzzle.
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Q. It would come together like a puzzle. And he would tell them that this would be a day they would never forget? A. Uh-huh.
Q. When Henry Lee Lucas received letters from people throughout the country - -
A. Yes. I took care of all of his mail. I think it was a Wednesday night we set aside to just answer his mail.
Q. Do you have those or are they back - -
A. They are back in there by my purse, the gray purse.
THE COURT: Why don’t we take a short recess while you-all go get all your letters together? (A brief recess was taken.)
THE COURT: Continue, Ms. Sipes.
Q. (BY MS. SIPES) I believe you stated earlier that you helped Mr. Lucas with his mail. Is that correct? A. Yes.
Q. How much time would you set aside for answering mail? A. Probably about three hours a week on a Wednesday night.
Q. And this would be mail that he had received
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personally at the jail? A. Yes.
Q. What did this correspondence consist of? A. A lot of was from parents seeking if he knew anything about their missing loved ones.
It - - Not only parents but, I mean - - or children seeking missing - - like a father was killed and some letters from attorneys saying that their client was innocent and in prison and describing a case asking if he could have killed that person, letters from prisoners seeking - - saying they are innocent and did he do their case, and letters of just pleading from people saying, “Even if you are the killer, just not that knowing who killed our daughter or our son is more painful than knowing who did, you know, and please tell us,” and letters from Christians encouraging him when they heard that he became a Christian.
Q. Okay.
A. There was some hate mail, also.
MR MOODY: Your Honor, just one remark about these letters.
Apparently there are personal correspondence to Henry Lucas and as such they would not be discoverable to the state. They would be beyond our
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subpoena power.
We would like to make sure that there is a clear, convincing, knowing and intelligent waiver by Henry Lucas before the Court to release these documents so that there is not a question at a later date regarding if these came into evidence, because I think they are, apparently, his personal papers.
MS. SIPES: No, these are not his personal writings.
MR. MOODY: Well, these are writings to him. Right? MS. SIPES: Are by a third party and sent to him and have nothing to do with the attorney-client privilege.
MR. MOODY: No, no, no, not the attorney-client privilege. But it generally says by - - subpoenas for evidence, the state can’t subpoena a person’s personal writings, letters and diaries and those types of things, and these documents might fall under these classifications.
Just to make sure that we don’t have any problem with these exhibits, I would also like to make sure that Mr. Lucas reviews all of them carefully and clearly and intelligently waives anything to their introduction.
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MS. SIPES: Your Honor, I know of no privilege that any defendant exercises over letters from third parties. I don’t think Mr. Lucas has any hesitancy in waiving, but I know of none to which Mr. Moody speaks to. I’m not aware of any.
THE COURT: Well, why don’t you ask him, Ms. Sipes? Mr. Lucas has been sworn previously. He is still under oath in this court.
MS. SIPES: Mr. Lucas, do you have any objections to these materials being introduced into evidence?
MR. LUCAS: No, I don’t have any.
(Defendant’s exhibit marked, D-36 through D-45.)
MS. SIPES: May I approach the witness, Your Honor? THE COURT: Go right ahead, Ms. Sipes.
Q. (BY MS. SIPES) I hand you what has been denominated Defendant’s Exhibit Number 37 and ask you if you can identify that for purposes of the record, please, ma’am? A. Yes, this is the letter that Henry received from a mother inquiring her daughter.
Q. Okay. Has she attached a color photograph? A. Yes.
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Q. And could you read that very briefly to the Court, please? A. Okay. “I’m writing in regard to my missing daughter. The last time I heard from her I was living in Grants Pass, Oregon, and she called and said she was in Los Angeles, California, and would be home the following week for her 16th birthday, which was July 27th, 1977.
“That was the last anyone heard from her. I have enclosed a picture of her. This was her last school picture. She was about five-foot-three and weighed about 110 pounds. She had shoulder-length hair of light brown. Her name is Cindy Irene King, but I think she used the name of Crystal sometimes.
“I understand you have given your heart to God, and I sure would appreciate it if you can tell me anything about her or if you knew her. I would certainly appreciate an answer.
“I have enclosed a self-addressed stamped envelope. Thank you, Joyce.” And her address.
Q. Is that typical of many of the letters that Mr. Lucas would receive each week? A. Yes. A lot of them would be more pleading, you know, sounding.
Q. And would they give facts and send
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photographs?
Yes.
Q. Such as this? A. Yes.
Q. How would this affect Mr. Lucas if, in fact, it would? A. Oh, it affected him very much. Henry is a very giving person and he felt pressure to help all of them. I mean, he wanted to help all of them.
And that particular one, if I recall, after he had received that letter - - I’m not sure. We could look at the dates when he was in California, but I think he had already came back from his trip from California - - and I remember writing something that he could recall, something about a sleeping bag and a ski jacket and a person of that description and she was murdered and left at a bank of a river and to notify blah, blah, blah, police and where to get some more information but that he had not killed her.
But he was trying to lead her where to get more information.
Q. Were you asked to respond to all of these inquires? Did you do so? A. We respond to - - I still have some that we have never even gotten around to. And then Sheriff
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Boutwell was saying to turn them over to the rangers and let them do it, and Henry was upset about that because he said, “These are personal letters to me and I have a right to respond to them.” And so, as you see, that is a copy of the letter. They let Henry have the picture, but they took the original letter. And then Henry was able - - they would let him respond.
MS. SIPES: Your Honor, at this time I would offer into evidence Defendant’s Exhibit 37.
MR. MOODY: No objection.
Q. (BY MS. SIPES) Did you ever respond with any confessions - -
THE COURT: Wait a minute.
(An off-the-record discussion was held.)
THE COURT: Go ahead.
Q. (BY MS. SIPES) Did you ever respond and - - for Henry to one of these inquires and with a confession to a killing? A, Yes, one, Christy Lynn Booth, and that - - and when he came here, somewhere around El Paso, I know that they went and he claimed to have killed her.
And a lot of times I would get - - they would write a letter and then I would get a telephone call. And I felt pressure, too, because the parents were
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hurting so bad in the phone, and I would tell Henry about Tom Booth and they were Christians - -
Q. Where were they? A. Lubbock. I’m not - - You would have to ask Henry. I think in the Lubbock area. No, Midland. Maybe Midland area. I’m not sure.
Q. You saw this. Do you want to see it again?
A. They never did clear that case and they never found anything, you know, to clear it. But Henry did confess to it, but the rangers wouldn’t - - someone didn’t clear it, I don’t think.
Q. Did you receive a call from the Booths? A. Yes. Up to this day, the Booths still call me and, you know, wondering if Henry knows anything more.
And I told them, “Henry didn’t kill your daughter,” you know, but they still keep in touch.
Q. Did you tell them why he said he did? A. Yes.
Q. Do you know why? A. He wanted to put their - - with - - just so they could have peace, you know, because it has been so long and he thought they would never know and - -
Q. I hand you what has been denominated as Defendant’s Exhibit Number 36 and ask if you can
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identify that, please? A. Yes.
Q. Would you read that briefly to the Court? A. “Henry, we appreciate you trying to help find Christy’s remains so we may have a Christian burial for her.
“Henry, we do believe that you have been saved by the saving power of the grace of our Lord. We fell that you are sincere in trying to help our Christy, so remember when that the Lord is ready, her remains will be found. So we just have to be patient and trust in the Lord.
“We will continue to remember you in our prayers, and you pray for us as we all need the Lord’s help in our lives. Tom and Myra Booth.” And Henry went looking, and this was a letter received when he came back and they couldn’t verify anything.
Q. Okay. Was the Christy Booth Missing Children Foundation set up, and if so, by whom? Do you know? A. I do not know anything about that. This wasn’t a child. This was a teenager.
Q. Okay.
MS. SIPES: I offer into evidence
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Defendant’s Exhibit Number 36.
MR. MOODY: No objection.
THE COURT: Be admitted.
Q. (BY MS. SIPES) Did these type of letters have a lot of emotional impact upon Henry Lucas? A. Yes. He would pray over them and pray for the parents and pray for the Lord to help him and if there was anything he could do, and he was always concerned about others.
Q. Do you recall receiving a phone call from a Mr. Hughes from Delaware? A. Yes, I do.
Q. Can you tell the Court a little bit about that, very briefly? A. First of all, I received a telephone call from a church secretary that a Mr. Hughes from Delaware was trying to reach me. And I was - - I couldn’t get in touch with him that particular day, but I was told by a friend why he was looking for me, that he son was in prison for a murder that he didn’t do and that a Mr. Hughes was a beautiful Christian man that was devoted to his son and knew that his son was innocent. And he was raising his sons, two little boys, and the mother was murdered, and the son who was in prison found his wife, who was
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a nurse, dead outside of the home and was accused of the murder.
And when I brought Henry’s lunch to him, I asked Henry who was he working with and he said, “Investigators out of Delaware.” And I said, “Oh, you must be working on the Hughes case.” And so I told him about that this father’s son is in prison that was innocent and everything. And at suppertime - -
Q. Did you tell him that Mr. Hughes was a beautiful Christian man? A. Yes, everything I knew.
Q. Did you tell him that Mr. Hughes had two grandchildren that he was raising? A. That he was raising, yes.
Q. While his innocent son was in prison? A. Yes, and that his son was in prison? A. Yes, and that his son was given a Bible study in prison and his son was a beautiful person and just everything what I was told. And - -
Q. In other words, when you left Henry Lee Lucas that day at lunch, he knew that - - sitting there, essentially for all purposes being on death row in Georgetown, that if he were to confess to the Hughes murder he would be making a lot of Christian people happy? Page 3170
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Um-hum.
Q. Did he realize that? A. He never said it. He never said it.
Q. But you gave him all this information? A. Right. And I did not give him the information so that he would confess to it, but I gave him the information - - well, I just knew that the lawmen would know if he did or did not and would seek out where he was and everything.
That night, Mr. Hughes called me and he was just rejoicing and he said, “Oh, just thank Henry. And, oh, I just love him so much and this is just wonderful and I just - - it’s an answer to prayer. And everybody had been praying.” And he went on and he was just crying on the phone. He said that the investigators had said that Henry had signed the confession to that.
And at the time I thought, “Well, Henry didn’t make my comment at all when I was talking to him about it at lunchtime. And - -
Q. Did you ever hear any law enforcement officer tell Henry Lee Lucas that if he didn’t continue to confess that he would go in to death row? A. I never herd any law enforcement outside of
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Georgetown. I mean, I just heard - - if the rangers felt like he wasn’t cooperating in something, they would go tell the sheriff and then the sheriff would tell me that is he doesn’t cooperate, that they have no use for him and they would send him on to death row.
And Henry would tell me that they would tell him that they would see that I didn’t come back to the jail and that - - but they played it at my end that he was going to go to death row.
Q. Would you convey that message to Henry? A. Yes. And then after awhile it had no impact anymore. It was dreaded so much. I mean, I just dreaded the thought of him going, too.
Q. Where does your mother live? A. About 19 miles from Victoria.
Q. Did there come a time when Henry Lee Lucas was going to go down to Victoria, Texas, to seek out some murder sites? A. Yes.
Q. And what, if anything, did you tell Henry Lucas? A. At that time - - Before that someone from Victoria came and asked him questions, I think, or they sent tapes or something, and Henry was going to
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go try designate where the places took - - the murders took place.
And I said, “Oh, I just dread you going there so much because this is where mother lives and some of my relatives.” And I said, “I just know how the newspaper reporters print such gory details and everything and I just hate that. My mother is going to have to read all of that.” Because my mother came and visited Henry in Georgetown. She is 81, and she talked to him many times in the phone. And she liked Henry, and I knew she was going to be hurt.
Q. Okay. So you told Henry you really dreaded him going to Victoria because you knew your mother would see the publicity? A. Yes.
Q. That would be in the paper? A. Yes. And it would hurt her, yes.
Q. Did Henry go to Victoria? A. He went to Victoria and he did not confess anything. He came back with no confessions.
Q. Your mother didn’t read any gory details in the paper, did she? A. Right.
Q. Do you recall when Henry Lee Lucas was
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presented a case concerning the death of an individual who was running a convenience store in Little Rock, Arkansas? A. Yes.
Q. Do you recall talking with him about the Little Rock, Arkansas, case at noontime one day? A. Yes.
Q. And had an individual been convicted in that case? A. Yes.
Q. Was that individual the member of a law enforcement officer’s family? A. I think a chief of police son.
Q. And had he been convicted and was he incarcerated? A. He was in prison.
Q. He was in prison. And what did Henry Lee Lucas tell you that day at lunchtime about that murder? A. I don’t remember all the details, but whenever he would talk about any kind of murders of anything, it would be that she was dead or he was killed. He never said, “I,” to anything. It was always, “he,” you know, in a third person like.
He said that someone had killed someone in a
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Convenience store and that this chief of police son, who was black, was making a telephone call, and the person that did the murder ran out of the convenience store and this black boy was on the phone and then when he saw the police car coming, he realized that there was a murder se he started running and they arrested him thinking he was the real killer but he wasn’t.
Q. Okay. Did you later hear that story again that evening? A. Yes, at suppertime. And not the chief of police son turned out to be a white boy.
Q. Okay. So on the same murder case, the witness was - - and the wrongfully accused individual at noontime was a black individual and that night - -
A. Uh-huh.
Q. - - at dinnertime he was - -
A. White.
Q. - - white. Did this cause you any suspicion about his confession? A. Yes, because Henry said that he picked out this person that was in prison from a lineup of pictures. And I said, “But, Henry, how could you? At noontime you said he was black. How could you pick out someone that was white?”
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And he said, “Well, one of those things.”
Q. Did you ever ask him how he was able to get to different crime scenes, how he was able to locate them when he would go to these different jurisdictions? A. Not for a long time. I mean, at the - - for a long, long time I felt like he was a mass murdered that was set free by the Lord, and used to be under Satan’s control and was set free and this why he no longer seemed violent or was a very gentle spirit.
When I started suspecting things, I asked him, you know, when he - - it would be a case that he said he didn’t do. And then I’d say, “But you took them to the scene, you know. How could you do that?”
And he said, “It’s nothing to it.” He said, “You just - - I don’t do the driving. They do the driving. You just watch. They are on an interstate highway,” and he said, “you just - - to see when they start eyeing the exits and start slowing down,” he said, “you know, then you just say, ‘Oh, just start slowing down because I think we are coming close to it.’ And then when they are looking, waiting for something, you say, ‘Oh, turn off at this exit.’”
He said sometimes he would take them and
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they would drive a long way off side road and then they would say, “Well, I think we passed it. Why don’t we go back?” And he said then they would go back and they wouldn’t go down as far down, so he knew it was hit-or-miss between those three turns and he just narrowed it down until he got there.
Q. So he would pick up hints from them by the way they drove, the speed and where they were looking?
A. Eye focus.
Q. Do you recall one time when you were giving Henry Lucas a painting lesson while he was in his cell and he was presented with a list of cases? A. He wasn’t given a list. Bob Prince came and sat down in the catwalk next to me and he had a long, legal-sized, typewritten, with many cases on it. And they were talking about Arkansas, Beaumont, Arkansas, and around that area that I recall, and Henry just kept painting and he said, “Nope, huh-uh, never been there. Nope, those aren’t mine.”
And Bib Prince said, “Well, let’s - - let’s put you on highway blah, blah, blah and take you down here. And let’s say - - let me just sort of put you in the area so you can recall.”
And he said, “You know, Henry, you have been
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Down interstate blah, blah.” And Henry’d say, “oh, yeah.”
So then they would go on. And he said, “Was there any elderly man that you know that was beaten around this area?” And Henry said, “No.”
And he said, “Well, okay, what about” - - and he - - and this particular one, I looked over and it said a night guard at a drugstore, and the man was in his 70’s and he was beaten to death. And Henry denied it.
And within a few days, the investigators came from that area. And in the task force office, I looked on the bulletin and it said, “Henry Lucas killed night watchman at drugstore with a pipe. Accomplished by Ottis Toole.”
And I said, “Bob,” I said, “you know Henry said he didn’t do this.” And he said, “Oh, well, when the investigators came and started talking to him and everything, well, he was able - - his mind cleared up and he was able to remember that.” Q. So while he was busy painting, he told Prince that he was not involved in that particular murder and then several days later - -
In all of the - - he - -
Q. And then several days later he - -
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He denied all of those that Bob was checking out, you know. And when he denied them, Bob said, “All right. They aren’t yours,” and he got up and left.
Q. Do you recall a time when the Texas Rangers finally received a little bit of bad publicity about all of these confessions? A. There was something going on and it was some - - and I don’t remember if it was in the Texas Monthly or if it had something to do with Hugh Aynesworth. I do not remember, but they were disturbed by the publicity.
And the sheriff and the rangers were there. And they said, “Well, what we need is a good story, something that will touch the people’s heart.” And, I mean, “Henry is doing such good work here and he’s not getting any credit for all the good work he is doing and we need something, a really good story here.”
And so I don’t recall if it was the same day or the following day, but they had Henry there. And they said, “Henry, you know, you confessed to a lot of - - killing a lot of lawmen and we - - we want to, you know, pick a certain lawman and do you recall, you know, where a lawman - - where one of these lawmen are that you killed?”
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Q. Did they think that this was going to get him some good publicity? A. Yes. They were going to work on a lawman’s case.
Q. Did they show Mr. Lucas some books of deceased law enforcement officers that had been killed? A. At that time Bob Prince had four thick black books with big rings on it, and it was pictures of living lawmen, okay, but they all had been murdered. And they were on his desk.
And I remember Henry walking up to the map, and Henry was drinking some coffee and he looked at the map and he said, “Well, I’m not going to do all your work, Bob. You’re going to have to start earning your pay around here.” And he said, he said, “This is my task force, but you aren’t you know, you got to do a little work here.” HE said, “Why don’t you look around Kentucky right here?”
And Henry drew a circle around - - kind of with his finger around Kentucky.
And I had to go home. And that evening, when I got back, they had someone in West Virginia that was supposed to have been a suicide, and they were saying - - telling me about how these little
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children had to be harnessed in school by their father being - - having committed suicide and she can’t receive her million-dollar insurance and everything like that.
And then the trip to West Virginia started on, you know. And I asked Henry, I said, “Well, Henry,” I said, “I thought you-all were going to - - that you had killed someone in Kentucky.” And I said, “Why is it West Virginia?”
And he said, “Oh, well, this is a more exciting case because it involves money and children and it will make a better story.” Q. Okay. And did Henry Lucas eventually go to West Virginia? A. Yes.
Q. How did he get over there? A. I don’t recall if that was a governor’s plane of what. Every time he made his trip, they - - you know, it was like, “Okay, tell us what you want when you go,” you know. And so he would say, “No jailhouse food and 21-inch, 24-, 26-, I don’t know, -inch cable television, colored. Be able to call Sister Clemmie and be able to pray with her. Be able to smoke on the plane.” I have forgotten.
Q. Coffee?
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Coffee around the clock.
Q. He wanted cabevision so he could watch Christian programs? A. Yes, 700 Club.
Q. Did he go to West Virginia? A. Yes.
Q. AND did he confess to the murder of that - -
A. He called me up. I was at the ranch and he said, “You know, we can’t clear this because I can’t take them back to the scene.” He said, “I just can’t do it.”
And then the next day he called again, and he still wasn’t clear and he still couldn’t take them to the scene. And finally I got a phone call and everybody was happy that it was cleared and the widow would get her money, and they were saying that this was worth all the cases.
Sheriff Boutwell said, “This is worth all the hard work, this case, just to see that we could help this widow lady, you know, and her young children.”
Q. And did Henry Lucas tell you about the celebration party that had that night? A. Yes.
Q. What did he tell you about it?
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A.That they took him to the Howard Johnson motel - - hotel, and they had - - and I have forgotten what kind of - - bootleg liquor, it was called. I don’t know. I guess it was called moonshine. I forgot. I don’t know about that, but liquor and some pizza was brought in.
And lawmen from where he was at the jail were there and Sheriff Boutwell and Bob Prince.
Q. And was one of the members of that party Henry Lee Lucas? A. Yes.
Q. And what happened at that party? A. They put the alcohol in front of him to have some, and he didn’t. And he - - I don’t think he ate the pizza because of his stomach.
And then he said that someone came to the door. It was a woman looking for Sheriff Boutwell, and Sheriff Boutwell got nervous and got the lawmen to take Henry back to jail.
And then the next day on the plane he said, “Now, Henry, you didn’t see anything at that motel and you don’t tell anything because I don’t want my wife down my back.”
MS. SIPES: May I approach the witness, Your Honor?
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THE COURT: Yes, ma’am.
Q. (BY MS. SIPES) Ms. Schroeder, when Henry Lucas returned from West Virginia, did he bring you anything? A. Yes. This was wrapped in a real pretty little box with a pink bow on it. And every time he came back from a trip he had a gift.
Q. What is it? A. This is - -
Q. Describe it for the record, please.
A. - - a mine worker. I can’t think. This is a coal mine worker.
Q. Did he tell you how he came by the money to buy that? A. He would tell them, you know, that he wanted to have a gift for me, and so I don’t know if the sheriff bought it or the rangers or who, you know.
Q. Okay.
MS. SIPES: Your Honor, we would offer into evidence Defendant’s Exhibit Number 44.
MR. MOODY: No objection.
THE COURT: Be admitted.
Q. (BY MS. SIPES) Do you recall a time when Henry Lucas went to California to, quote, unquote, clear some cases?
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Um-hum.
Q. And prior to that time, had he told you that he had confessed to any cases in California? A. That he - - No. He told me that he would have to confess to - - I remember cases under a drawbridge, some younger teenagers, and he said they were teenage girls. AND when he came back, in the paper it said that they were very young, I don’t know, five and seven or something.
Q. Did he have a problem with going to California? A. Yes.
Q. Did he want to go? A. No, he did not want to go. And I was put pressure on to get him to go.
Q. Who put the pressure on you to get Henry Lucas to go to California? A. Well, Bob and Clayton. But it got - - And Henry was saying no, he didn’t want to go.
Q. Back up just a minute. Who is Bob and Clayton? A. The rangers, Bob Prince and Clayton Smith. And the most pressure came on one day when I was carrying about 11 Bibles, because I remember my arms were so tired from holding those Bibles.
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And Clayton said, “I have got to talk to you.” And he said, “We got to make a decision by 6:00, and Henry - - we need Henry in California. We have got to arrange everything and they are waiting for us to okay it. And we have all of this” - - not paperwork but, “phone calls and arrangements to be made, and we have got to get there and take case of this today.”
And so I went to see Henry. And he shook his head no. And this is when he said, “I’m not going because they are going to make me confess to these girls under a drawbridge.” Not a drawbridge. I don’t know what kind of bridge but some kind of bridge.
So that night when I came back, I said, “Henry, did you decide if you’re going?” He said, “Yeah. I’m not going. I told them I’m not going.”
And I said, “Oh,” I said, “Henry,” I said, “maybe you do repress.” And I said - - And I said - - I then said, I said, “I just know in the morning they are going to get into me about it.”
And so, anyway, he said, “All right. All right. All right. I’ll go, but I’m going just because of you.”
So in the morning I got to the jail early,
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You know. I said, “Did Henry tell you? And Clayton said, “What?” And I said, “He is going to California.”
And he said, “What? All right.” So the phone started and everyone started moving and the trip to California was on.
And then - -
Q. Did he make certain demands? A. Oh, he always did. They always would ask him. I would not say he made demands. They would just say, “Now, Henry, what do you want? Now, just tell us what you want.” You know, he did not day, “I demand this,” you know. It was just, you know, they asked him.
And he said that he wanted Sheriff Boutwell to go. And they said, “Well, the sheriff wasn’t going to go.” And he said, “Well, I want him to go.”
And so I asked, “Why?”
And he said, “Because they treat me so much better when Sheriff Boutwell is there, the other jail - - people at the jail.”
And so Sheriff Boutwell did go. And they came back with suntans and they were saying it was a marvelous trip and that Henry was treated like a king and - -
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Q. Did they buy Henry some sunglasses out there? A. Uh-huh.
Q. Did they buy him a watch while he was out there? A. He had a birthday. And before he left the jail the ranger’s secretary got - - he loved strawberry shakes, so she made a big strawberry cake for him.
And I got him - - I wanted to get him a cap, and he said no, he doesn’t wear caps and he wouldn’t wear a cap. So I got him a little - - he would always take a paper bag, so I got him one of these athletic, what is it, one of those zipper bags to carry his clothes in.
And when he got to California, they had a great big coffee - - very heavy steel coffee thing that would keep coffee warm - -
Q. Thermos? A. Thermos - - all day. So he came back and he wanted a thermos, and so I bought him one of these big things and so he always had that, then.
But it was his birthday, and he’d never had a cake before and he had never been - - he’d never celebrated his birthday. So I told the sheriff and the rangers about it, and they all pitched in and
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They got him a watch with beeper and all different - - one of those real nice watches. And he was just real, real touched by that. I think he really treasures that gift even today.
Before, Henry had an old watch, and old-fashioned Timex watch that Sheriff Boutwell gave him to wear. And so when the sheriff gave him a new watch, he said, “Now, Henry, I want that old watch back because it’s from my dad.” And Henry said, “Oh, no.” He said, “Before you get this watch back, Sister Clemmie is going to have it all cleaned because I don’t return things used and it’s dirty and dusty under the dial.”
So he gave me that watch and I took it to the jeweler and they were going to charge me $38. And the watch, I said, “It doesn’t even - - It’s not worth $8, and you’re going to charge me $38 to clean it?” And they said yes.
So I told Henry, I said, “Henry, the sheriff doesn’t care if it’s clean or not.” And he said, “I do.” He said, “I want it right for the sheriff and I promised him.”
So I paid the $38 and had the watch cleaned.
Q. Okay.
A. I know this came from California, and the
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cap that Henry wouldn’t let me buy, they bought him one and he wore it. And he brought this back and this was a gift. I’m not sure where the Mickey Mouse - - I don’t know. I’m not sure. Henry could tell you where the Mickey Mouse came from.
Q. I hand you what has been denominated Defendant’s Exhibit 43 and 42. Can you identify those for the Court, please? A. Yes. These are the Los Angeles Olympics T-shirt and a cap.
Q. And where did they - - Who brought them to you? A. Henry.
Q. Did they come from the California trip? A. Yes, yes. It was - - Henry would have things wrapped and put behind his back and I would have to guess what it was. And, of course, you can’t ever guess. Then he would give hints and it would take forever. And he would narrow it down and finally, if you could end up guessing it, you really felt like you - -
Q. So Henry liked to play guessing games when he wasn’t confessing? A. Yeah. I never thought of that.
MS. SIPES: We would offer into evidence,
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Your Honor, Exhibits 43 and 42.
THE COURT: All right.
Is there any objection, Mr. Moody? MR. MOODY: No, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Be admitted.
When they came back from that trip, I felt there was - - the friendship between Henry and the rangers were a lot closer. And Sheriff Boutwell and everyone, I felt like there was a - - and I thought, oh, good, you know, they were going to really work well together. But in the time Henry started having a mistrust again of them.
Q. (BY MS. SIPES) Now, Defense Exhibit Number 42 was the Los Angeles Olympics 1984 - -
A. Uh-huh.
Q. Is that correct, the T-shirt? A. Yes.
Q. And the other is a ball cap, Brannen’s Fasteners for Industry, Defense Exhibit Number 43? A. Um-huh.
Q. Is that correct? A. Right.
Q. I hand you what’s been denominated Defense Exhibit 41, which appears to be a stuffed toy Mickey Mouse animal. Do you recall which trip that came
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from?
No. Henry would have to tell you. I really can’t.
Q. Is this a gift from Henry Lee Lucas? A. Yes.
Q. From one of his confession trips? A. Yes.
MS. SIPES: Your Honor, I would offer into evidence Defendant’s Exhibit 41, the stuffed Mickey Mouse.
MR. MOODY: No objection.
THE COURT: Be admitted.
Q. (BY MS. SIPES) And I hand you what has been denominated Defense Exhibits 38 and 39 and ask if you can identify those for the record, please, ma’am? A. Yes, this is the little pearl necklace. This did not come in this case. It came in a little green velvet case. And this here was a box of a lot of hot sauce like a little case with a lot of hot sauce. I give all of it away and I never used that.
Q. Okay. Where did they come from? A. This one came from Louisiana. I think this came from Georgia.
Q. The Bullard’s hot sauce comes from the Louisiana confession trip. Is that right?
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Yes.
Q. Defense Exhibit number 39?
A. Yes.
Q. A bottle of Louisiana hot sauce, tobacco sauce? A. There were more bottles in that than one.
Q. It was a case of this? A. A little case.
Q. A little case? A. Yes.
Q. And then the pearl necklace marked as Defendant’s Exhibit 38 came from one of his southern state trips. Is that correct? A. I believe Georgia, I believe.
MS. SIPES: Your Honor, I would offer into evidence at this time Defendant’s Exhibit 38 and 39.
MR. MOODY: No objections.
THE COURT: BE admitted.
Q. (BY MS. SIPES) DID you ever give Mr. Lucas any monies to buy you any gifts with? A. No.
Q. Do you have any idea if he received monies from any other persons other than yourself?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. And where did those monies come from?
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Johnny Dodd gave him money. Johnny Dodd had a woman by the name of, I think, Shaffield or similar to that that was going to be writing a book.
And so Johnny gave me money to get Henry like a color TV. I bought the color TV and gave money - - and gave the jail ministry money.
And sometimes, I mean, like he would come with - - the book writer or something and he would give me $50 for the jail ministry or something. And he would say, you know, “Get Henry what he needs,” or something.
And Henry would say, “I don’t need anything,” and I would use it for the jail ministry.
And Bob Werner - - All of the law people wanted paintings of Henry and I was having to go to Michael’s art shop. They were buying a lot of art supplies and the brushes can be like $14 for a very tiny brush, and the canvases and everything.
So I was complaining to Bob, Captain Bob Werner that it was costing me so much money and I couldn’t afford paying for all the art supplies. And he said, “Well, we have some money here that people have given, you know, for Henry, and so you just tell me how much you need. “
And I said, “Well,” I Said, “I charged - -
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Put on my Visa $49 at Michael’s.” And so he gave me $49 from a drawer, you know.
And he said, “But don’t” - - he said, “We can pay you for that, you know. And he said it was money that Henry had received. From who, I don’t know.
Q. Okay.
A. And now and then he would receive money orders from people like $10 money orders from Christians, you know. And he would always give me the money orders and I cashed them.
He always had cartons and cartons of cigarettes, and he supplied everyone on his side of the jail, all the other prisoners with cigarettes because the sheriff would tell investigators the kind of brand he would like, the red cigarettes - - paper.
Q. Do you recall a - - that Johnny Dodd gave Bob Prince a check and that a photograph was taken of the money that exchanged hands from Johnny Dodd to Bob Prince that appeared in the Texas Ranger Hall of Fame news photo?
A. No, I knew nothing about that.
Q. You never did see that? A. Henry would say how when he would go different places the sheriffs would always want to
Page 3195
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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Take his pictures and so Henry said that he would say, “Well, I’m going to - - I’m going to have to win the election for you, I guess.” And Henry would stand there and they would have pictures taken with Henry, you know, because Henry cleared up some cases or something. And Henry said that he helped many a sheriff get reelected, you know.
Q. I show you what has been denominated as Exhibit Number 40 and ask if you can describe that for the record, please, ma’am? A. I would have to ask Henry again. I don’t recall where this was, but I wanted to know which ranger went out and got it. And Henry said he didn’t know, he just told them he wasn’t leaving until he had a gift for me. So somebody said, “Well, go out and get her something.” So someone picked that out for me.
There were other gifts of food and things like bags of peanuts from a state that grows peanuts.
MS. SIPES: Okay. Your Honor, I would move for the Admission into Evidence Defendant’s Exhibit Number 40.
MR. MOODY: No objection.
THE COURT: What would you call that, Ms. Sipes, dead flower exhibit?
Page 3196
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
MS. SIPES: A dried flower arrangement.
THE COURT: Thank you.
Q. (BY MS. SIPES) Do you recall an incident that occurred when a law enforcement officer from either Arizona or New Mexico was visiting his girlfriend who was a jailer there in Georgetown? A. Yes.
Q. And? A. It was wintertime because I remember it was cold, and this was an investigator that was doing a lot of investigating in old Mexico on drugs.
And so I told him, I said, “Henry has told me about when he was in Mexico, how he had gone to a ranch, American children at this ranch and they were selling the children. These were kidnapped children from the United States that they were selling.” And I said, “Did you ever see anything like that when you were in Mexico?”
And he said, “Oh, yeah, just where I was,” and blah, blah, blah place in Mexico. He said, “We did a raid on a ranch, and there were these American children there.” And I said, “Oh, please, come talk to
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Henry.”
And he said, “Well, I don’t know if I can.”
And I said, “Oh, it’s all right.” It was on a Sunday. And I said, “Just come on up.” And so I introduced Henry to him. And I said, “Henry,” I said, “he was in Mexico.” And I said, “Where is that - - Where was that ranch that you talked about that you saw all these American children at?” And Henry named it. And I said, “Wow, that’s the same one.” AND I said, “Frank, isn’t that the same one?” And he said yes.
And then they - - Henry described this place and I said, “Well, we’ve got to do something about this. The people have to know about the children that are in Mexico being sold.” I said, “All those children that are kidnapped,” I said, “we have to do something about that.” So he said, “I’d better not be talking here. I need to get permission from the sheriff. I shouldn’t be here talking.”
And so he went to go on. And I said, “Henry, what are we going to do?” you know. And so
Page 3192
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Henry said, “Well, I’ll talk to the sheriff.”
SO then I went in and I said, “Sheriff, we have to get those American children out of Mexico.”
And he said, “Well, I’ll talk to Bob about it.”
So I told Bob and Bob said, “We’ll work on that when we finish clearing up all of these cases. We’ve got to get through these cases.” And I said, “Bob, those people are dead, but these children are alive.” I said, “We’ve got to work on these children.” And he said, “Now, Miss Clemmie, we’ll take care of it. I promise you we’ll take care of it.” So months - - a couple months went by and I said, “We’ve got to get those kids out of Mexico.” And I said, “Somebody has got to know about those American children being in Mexico.” And I had everyone in the Bible study praying and everything.
And I called up Frank, this - - from New Mexico or Arizona, and I said, “Frank,” I said, “are you going back into Mexico?” and he said, “Yes.”
And I said, “When you get back to that ranch, you count those children.” And I said, “Henry said there’s - - there was - - that he had heard of a couple of other ranches or something.” So he said
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
That he would look into it.
And so I bugged and bugged the sheriff about those kids that were alive and that we keep working on dead people and that we need to work on the live people. And so finally he said, “Okay, okay. I’ll get the FBI people here.” So the FBI talked to Henry, and I came - -
Q. Let me interrupt you. Prior to the FBI coming in, did you and Henry then sit down and make a list of all the children that Henry Lee Lucas had kidnapped? A. No.
Q. Okay.
A. The FBI came in and Henry talked to the FBI, maybe on a Friday, and I went to the ranch to see my mother. And when I came back on a Sunday evening, Henry said, “Can you help me write a list? I’ve got to write a list of all of the kids I kidnapped.” And I said, “No, but,” he said, “the FBI won’t do anything because of hearsay.” And he said, “So I’ll take the rap.” And he said - -
And I said, “If we write it down, it won’t be the truth and they’ll find out it’s not the
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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truth.”
And he said, “It doesn’t matter. If you write it down, the things, the FBI has something to go on and they’ll start investigating, and when they start investigating, they’re going to find the children.” So, anyway, that took about three hours. Henry would say about this little kid had khaki pants on and glasses and long hair and this place and that place, and I just kept writing and writing.
And so Monday morning, I went - - I knew that Henry said the FBI would be there in the morning, so I went. And his name was Craig, I think. His name was Craig.
And I said, “Craig, those kids in Mexico, we have to do something.”
And he said, “Well, let me see that list. We’ll have to investigate this.”
And I said, “Listen,” I said, ‘go to Mexico.” I said, “Go into Mexico to these places and talk to Frank.”
And so he did talk to Frank, and I remember there was ice on the - - the FBI was coming and Bob and Clayton were there, and they were going to meet with the FBI to talk about the kids in Mexico. And
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
So I said, “Sheriff,” I said, “Do you have a map of Mexico so Henry can show you these ranches?” He said, “Bob, do we have a map?” Nobody had a map.
I said, “How can you investigate if you don’t have a map. You got to have a map of Mexico.” So I ran down to the Texas - - I mean to the library for a big map of Mexico. And I thought, “I don’t believe these guys are going to investigate places in Mexico and they don’t even have a map of Mexico.” So the librarian wouldn’t let me take that, so I had to run and buy this one from a bookstore. And I took it back and I gave it to the FBI and I said, “Now, let Henry mark the places.” And I don’t know what happened, but very shortly after that is when they closed the doors in and out of Mexico. And Frank said that he went in again and when he went in that his partner was killed there in Mexico and he was beaten up, and they took him off, that he can’t go into Mexico anymore because he was recognized. And I said, “I can’t do anything about the children in Mexico.”
THE COURT: Ms. Sipes, let’s take a little break here.
Page 3202
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
(A recess was taken.)
THE COURT: Be seated, please. Let me explain the good news and the bad news. I was talking to the Reporter.
As you-all know, Meryl has a - - one of these machines that, what is it, a computerized - - anyway, the thing is broken down and that was the reason for her stopping me. She is not getting - - In other words, she cannot take it down on this tape because the computer is broke down for some reason.
She says she thinks she can get it fixed this evening, work on it, so we are going to have to recess until tomorrow morning so we can get the thing back together or something.
I’m sorry about that, but that’s the way it is and if we want to get this down on our tape, this is the only way we can do it. Now, we might be able to get, you know, through this, just this listening device machine, but I don’t think that is - - I’m a little worried about that, so let’s - - we will just have to wait until the morning.
Can you get it fixed by then, do you think? MR. PONTON: Your Honor, sir, could I bring up another matter that is not through the witness, just something brief?
Page 3203
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
THE COURT: Yes. See, what’s the matter is we are getting - - I don’t think we are getting it down unless we are getting it on this box.
All right, go ahead.
MR. PONTON: Your Honor, I have a subpoena here that Ms. Sipes and I issued on the 12th day of September, 1986, for Mark White, the governor of the state of Texas, and it appears that the sheriff of Travis County can’t find the governor of the estate of Texas because the sheriff of Travis County, Don Baily, returned that subpoena unserved saying he was unable to locate the governor.
It’s amazing to me that the sheriff of Travis County can’t find the governor of the state of Texas, however, based upon the testimony from the witnesses in this case, specifically Bob Lemons, and based upon Defendant’s Exhibit 29, I believe, the letter showing that the governor’s office of the state of Texas was made aware of the Lucas problems in April of 1985 and had been in contact with the U.S. Attorney’s office and some other people, Ms. Sipes and I feel that it’s very important to the defense of our case to bring the governor to the stand and ask him the questions that we have that are relevant to this case.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Therefore, I would like to at this time on the record inquire of Governor White’s west texas campaign manager, Bill Moody, when the governor might be in El Paso County and maybe our sheriff would have more luck in finding him than the sheriff in Travis County did.
MR. MOODY: I have not been in contact with him on their itinerary for being in El Paso. Again I suspect they will be at some point, but I don’t know when.
THE COURT: Well, Mr. Moody, I understand that this subpoena was all taken care of, that we were not going to subpoena the governor. That was my understanding.
MR. PONTON: Mr. Moody and I had - -
THE COURT: Well, but, I mean, Mr. Moody told me that because I asked him about it and he said, “Well, I have talked to Mr. Ponton and that is all taken care of. They are not going to subpoena him.” That was my understanding, Mr. Ponton. Maybe that’s why it wasn’t served. I don’t know.
MR. PONTON: At this time, Your Honor, it’s the intention of the defense to call all witnesses who have relevant testimony in this cause to defend Mr. Lucas on the charges of capital murder pending
Page 3205
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Against him, and we feel that the governor of the state of Texas has relevant testimony in this cause.
THE COURT: Mr. Ponton, let me say this to you. I don’t serve subpoenas.
MR. PONTON: I understand.
THE COURT: And if you want to subpoena anybody, you go right ahead and subpoena them. Just get out another subpoena. See if you can get it served.
I would like, and I think that prior to the governor or anyone else that they would like to find out how their testimony could possibly affect whether or not Mr. Lucas’ confession was properly taken. I think that they have the right to come in and question it and find out just - - What is it that I can tell you? What do you want? MR. PONOTN: That’s - -
THE COURT: So I would certainly entertain something along those lines. I’m not going to tell you not to subpoena the governor or anyone else. I think that you have the right to subpoena anybody, anyone you want to. So you go right ahead and do that.
But I do think that you ought to start thinking in terms of why and what that person’s
Page 3206
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Testimony could do to help this lawsuit, because I’m going to have a hearing, I’m sure, to find out, you know, do we need him here. Do you understand? MR. PONTON: I do, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Now, as far as someone else serving - - or papers being served, I don’t serve them. I don’t know why they aren’t served. I don’t have any idea why they are not served.
So you check that out. Do whatever you want to. You can g3et them served or not served. You have been trying to serve Mr. Armes, I’m told, for a month and a half who lives right here in El Paso who I have seen in the courthouse who has a bodyguard. Our sheriff can’t serve him. I don’t see how you think that our sheriff could serve the governor. Out sheriff can’t you know, I mean, can’t serve Mr. Jay Armes. I don’t know how you get these people served.
So maybe there is some secret to this service. I don’t know.
But, anyway, you do it any way you can, and if you can get someone to serve him, fine. If you can get Mr. Armes served, fine. I don’t know. Are you still trying to find him? MR. PONTON: Has he been served? Do you
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
know?
THE COURT: I’m sure he hasn’t been served. He is awfully hard to find. I haven’t seen him but about three or four times in the last ten days parked in front of the building. One day I saw him walking down the hall here, you know, one morning last week. And I thought, my God, that man is hard to find. He is just as shifty as he can be just walking all around.
THE CLERK: Judge, for the record, the subpoena was returned by our sheriff unserved to our office.
THE COURT: Well, I don’t understand why they can’t serve him. I think I could serve him. As I say, I look out the window here and see him pull up. I don’t know why he can’t be served.
But it’s not my lawsuit, folks. It’s your lawsuit. You-all serve whoever you want and then we will talk about it. All I’m doing is sitting here listening. I hope I don’t get through listening before you-all get through talking.
(An evening recess was taken.)
Page 3208
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
IN THE DISTRICT OF EL PASO COUNTY, TEXAS
THE STATE OF TEXAS )
)
VS. ) CAUSE NO. 43314-120
)
HENRY LEE LUCAS )
heard on
OCTOBER 8, 1986
Page 3209
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
For the State: WILLIAM MOODY
First Assistant District Attorney
City-County Building
El Paso, TX 79901
RICHARD JEWKES
Assistant District Attorney
City-County Building
El Paso, TX 79901
CAROL PENNOCK
Assistant District Attorney
City-County Building
El Paso, TX 79901
For the Defendant: ROD PONTON
Attorney at Law
Suite 505
Caples Building
El Paso, TX 79901
DORIS SIPES
Attorney at Law
1011 North Mesa
El Paso, TX 79901
Page 3210
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
WITNESSES PAGE
CLEMINTINE SCHROEDER
Continued Direct Examination by Ms. Sipes 3215
Cross-Examination by Mr. Jewkes 3309
BETTY SANDLIN
Direct Examination by Ms. Sipes 3258
Cross-Examination by MS. Pennock 3291
LARRY LaGROW
Direct Examination by Mr. Ponton 3302
VIC FEAZELL
Direct Examination by Mr. Ponton 3379
Voir Dire Examination by Mr. Jewkes 3401
Continued Direct Examination by Mr. Ponton 3406
Voir Dire Examination by Mr. Jewkes 3421
Continued Examination by Mr. Ponton 3425
Cross-Examination by Mr. Jewkes 3433
Voir Dire Examination by Mr. Ponton 3435
Page 3211
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
WITNESSES PAGE
VIC FEAZELL
Direct Examination by Mr. Ponton 3379
Voir Dire Examination by Mr. Jewkes 3401
Continued Direct Examination by Mr. Ponton 3406
Voir Dire Examination by Mr. Jewkes 3421
Continued Examination by Mr. Ponton 3425
Cross-Examination by Mr. Jewkes 3433
Voir Dire Examination by Mr. Ponton 3435
LARRY LaGROW
Direct Examination by Mr. Ponton 3302
BETTY SANDLIN
Direct Examination by Ms. Sipes 3258
Cross-Examination by MS. Pennock 3291
CLEMINTINE SCHROEDER
Continued Direct Examination by Ms. Sipes 3215
Cross-Examination by Mr. Jewkes 3309
Page 3212
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EXHIBIT DESCRIPTION MARKED IDENTIFIED OFFERED REC’D
S-22 Check 3290 3292 3295 3295
S-23 Time card 3290 3297 3299 3300
S-24 Time card 3290 3298 3299 3300
S-25 Time card 3290 3299 3299 3300
D-46 Check register 3272 3290 3290
D-47 Check 3272 3272 3289 3289
D-48 Time card 3273 3274 3289 3289
D-49 Time card 3274 3274 3278 3279
D-50 Time card 3275 3275 3278 3279
D-51 Time card 3277 3277 3278 3279
D-52 Iron 3279 3279 3279 3280
D-53 Blender 3280 3280 3280 3280
D-54 Crockpot 3286 3286
D-55 Time card 3286 3287 3289 3289
D-56 Time card 3286 3287 3289 3289
D-57 File 3306 3306 3306 3306
D-58-A Transcript 3399 3410
D-58-B Transcript 3399 3410 3419
D-58-C Transcript 3399 3410 3419
D-58-D Transcript 3399 3411 3419
D-58-E Transcript 3399 3412 3419
D-58-F Transcript 3399 3412 3419
D-58-G Transcript 3399 3413
D-58-H Transcript 3399 3414 3419
D-58-I Transcript 3399 3416
D-58-J Transcript 3399 3418
D-58-K Transcript 3399
D-58-L Transcript 3399 3418 3419
D-58-M Transcript 3399 3419 3419
Page 3213
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
THE STATE OF TEXAS )
)
VS. ) CAUSE NO. 43314-120
)
HENRY LEE LUCAS )
BE IT REMEMBERED that on the 8th day of October, 1986, beginning at 9:15 a.m., came on to be heard the continuation or pretrial motions in the above styled and numbered cause, before the HONORABLE BRUNSON MOORE, Judge Presiding in and for the 120th Judicial District Court, and that the same was reported by Meryl Wersinger, Certified Shorthand Reporter and Notary Public in and for County Court at Law Number Four, El Paso County, Texas, and that the following proceeqings were has as follows, to-wit:
Page 3214
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
THE COURT: All right, Ms. Sipes.
MS. SIPES: Good morning, Ms. Schroeder.
THE WITNESS: Good morning.
CLEMINTINE SCHROEDER,
Having been previously duly sworn by the Court to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, was examined and testified as follows:
BY MS. SIPES:
Q. Ms. Schroeder, do you recall a time when Henry Lee Lucas came to El Paso County? A. Yes.
Q. Did you know the purpose for his coming to El Paso County? A. To go over cases and see if any of the cases in El Paso were his.
Q. Can you approximate for me the time that he came to El Paso County?
A. That was in the summer of ’84, I think ’84.
Q. And did you receive any phone calls from Henry Lee Lucas? If so, what did he relate to you in that phone call?
A. I - - Every time he would go out of town I would receive a telephone call. And he related that
Page 3215
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
He was - - had just come back from a neighborhood that was a very poor neighborhood, and that they drove up and they were at this house and that a Volkswagen pulled up with children being dropped off and a little girl - - I don’t know if it was one or two children - - were climbing through a window trying to enter this house.
He was disturbed about children going home to an empty house in that type of neighborhood or any type of neighborhood. And he said it was way out.
Q. This was a call you received from El Paso? A. Right. And he also - - When he got back to Georgetown, he said about that this woman - - that there was this woman that was murdered with an axe and killed and chopped up with an axe and that he - -
Q. Did he tell you that he had committed that murder of an El Paso woman with an axe? A. No. He just describing the case.
And he said, “I can’t understand why anyone would kill her. They said that it was - - that she was robbed, and I can’t understand anyone would kill her because she was such a poor elderly lady, and I can’t imagine what they would get from a house like that and to be murdered like that.” Q. Okay. So he described the gruesome parts of
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
the murder. Did he tell you he had seen these gruesome parts from photographs here in El Paso? A. No, I just assumed that he did. I mean, he never would go into details, just that she was murdered and chopped up with an axe, you know.
Q. And he told you that it took place in a very poor neighborhood? A. Yes.
Q. And he couldn’t understand anyone robbing from the poor? A. Right.
Q. Did you later have occasion to know that Henry Lucas returned to El Paso County? A. I remember he took a trip and - - another trip. And at the time I was concerned about this Christy Lynn Booth, that I knew the parents. And I told Henry, I said, “If you are close to that area, please go see if you can locate Christy Lynn or anything for the Booths.” And it was the trip that he was going to go to different areas, and I believe he was coming back to El Paso. You know, I did not see why he would be coming back to El Paso or anything.
Q. Do you recall receiving a phone call from Mr. Lucas from El Paso on that trip?
Page 3217
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
I am sure I did, but I don’t recall it on that particular trip.
Q. Do you recall receiving any further phone calls from El Paso County from Henry Lee Lucas? A. I received a phone call when he was disturbed. It was maybe in the fall, October, November of ’84. And the day before that phone call, I received another phone call and he was at Brownwood or Woodfield - - somewhere in Texas and he said that he was going on to, you know, El Paso.
Q. Why was he going to El Paso? A. Everywhere he went it was to see if they could clear any cases, if any of them were his cases, you know.
So then the next day I received a telephone call from Henry, and he was upset and he said - - I asked how he was and he said, “Not good.” And I said, “Why?”
And he said, “They lied to me.” And I said, “What do you mean, they lied to you?” And he said, “I was told that I would not have charges put on me, that if I would confess that it would just be cleared but nit charges.” And he said, “They are getting ready to take me to the grand
Page 3218
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
Jury.”
And I said, “Well, Henry,” I said, - - And he said, “I don’t know what I should do now.” And I said, “Well, ask your attorney.” And he said, I don’t have one.”
And I said, “Well, Henry, if you’re going to a grand jury, I’m sure you will have an attorney.” And he said, “No, I don’t have one.”
And I said, “Well, who is” - - and I said, “Well, won’t they give you one?” And he said, “No, it wouldn’t do any good, anyway.” And I said, “Well, who is there with you? Is it Bob or Clayton?” And he said, “Clayton.”
Q. You are referring to - -
A. Ranger Clayton Smith, okay? And I said, “Well, Henry,” I said, “you don’t have anything to worry about.” I said, “Clayton will do the right thing. Just ask Clayton what you should do when you get to the grand jury.” I said, “He will advise you the right way because I don’t know what to say. I don’t understand it.” And he said - - And I said - - And he said, “Oh, yeah, yeah, okay.” And I said a prayer and hung up.
Q. Okay. And did you know that that call was
Page 3219
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
from El Paso County?
Yes.
Q. And that he was concerned about going to the grand jury? A. Yes. I did not know it was the murder with the poor lady and the axe. I mean, I did not make the connection this was the same one, because there were so many cases. I mean, I didn’t know what case it was.
I just know that he was upset saying he’d been lied to, and I don’t know who lied to him. I don’t know if it was the rangers or someone from El Paso or who.
Q. But this call was made to your home in Georgetown? A. Yes.
Q. Was it a collect call or was it paid for by some law enforcement agency? A. They were always - - Outside telephone calls were always - - never collect. I mean, I don’t know who paid for them.
Q. Okay.
A. And I could hear a man talking in the background. I mean, it was in an office. It wasn’t like he was in a cell. I mean, you know, they were
Page 3220
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
talking, you know, in the background.
Q. After he came back to Georgetown after appearing before the grand jury, did he tell you anything about his appearance before the grand jury? A. No. I - - He was just glad - - He was disappointed and upset, you know, still because he said they had lied to him and he said he wasn’t going to take any more trips.
He said, “Well, I just took my last trip, because once they start lying to me,” he said, “I’m just not going to put up with that.” Q. And did he take any more trips? A. Yes.
Q. Were did he go? A. Wherever they wanted him to go, you know.
Q. Up to this time had you continued in your belief that Henry Lee Lucas was a mass murderer and that the confessions were true? A. Yes. I felt, yes, that he was a mass murderer, but I felt like there were cases that he did not do. But I felt - - I just - - I just had the utmost respect for Sheriff Boutwell and the rangers. And I just trusted that, you know, that he was what he said. But I was concerned because I felt that some of the cases were not his, you know - -
Page 3221
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
Q. Okay.
A. - - at that time.
Q. About this time was Henry Lee Lucas approached by a writer by the name of Mike Cox? A. Yes. Sheriff Boutwell introduced Mike Cox to Henry as his friend and that he writes for the Austin American Statesman and he is also connected somehow to the DPS. Now, I’m not sure if he’s - - if he works for the DPS or just writes about cases. I’m not sure, you know, who pays him, you know, if he’s employed by the DPS or employed by the newspaper, you know.
He wanted him to write a story - - Mike was going to do a - - write a story of Henry Lee Lucas.
Q. Did he approach him with a contract? A. Not at that time, Until Sheriff Boutwell said - - Sheriff Boutwell said - - We have already - - Everybody had - - five book writers had an original contract, and he said, “Oh, it doesn’t make any difference. We’ll get it - - one more.” You know - - And so Henry said he didn’t want Mike Cox to do the story.
And so Mike Cox came back and so the sheriff called me up and he said, “You know, Mike is my friend. He can write a wonderful book. He wrote
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
about the man who wrote the book, Old Yeller, and his autobiography and he’s a wonderful writer and you need to help me to get Henry to, you know, go with this writer.” So then a contract came and it wasn’t a good contract. I took it to an attorney, and the attorney said it was a very poor contract and it shouldn’t be signed. So I wrote to Mike again and then Henry wrote Mike and asked for 25 percent royalties to go to the New Life Jail Ministry. And Mike Cox got real upset about that, and then the sheriff came and got real upset that and said that was too much for the New Life Jail Ministry, it needs to be a lot less.
So Mike came - - No contract. He had no contract that was signed. And so he came - - The book was going to be written, anyway, with no contract. And he came and Henry was painting, and Mike was going to do a story and start asking him questions. And Henry didn’t cooperate, you know, so he didn’t see Mike Cox anymore.
Q. Did he tell Mike Cox that he could write, that he was going to paint?
A. I believe - - I believe so. Or he was getting ready to paint or something. I don’t remember.
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Q. What kind - -
A. You would have to ask Henry.
Q. What kind of funds was the Williamson County jail receiving because of the presence of Henry Lee Lucas in that jail? Are you aware of any of those funds? A. Yes, but I - - you know, what I will say is is I have no proof. I mean, I just, you know, I can tell you what I have seen and what I have heard among the jailers and everything. I have proof of this: I was - - I happened to be in the catwalk when Sheriff Boutwell came in and he told Henry that he was going to go see Governor Mark White and ask for a grant.
And at that time the Williamson County commissioners were all voting Henry out of Georgetown. They didn’t like the publicity and having a mass murderer in their town for so long and they were out voting him out and putting a lot of pressure on that sheriff. And the sheriff said, “If I can get Mark - - the governor to give us this grant, then I will be able to - - you can stay here as long as I decide for you to stay here, Henry.” And he said, “I think it would be real nice if we could give him one of your paintings, oil paintings.” And so - -
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Q. Give who one of his oil paintings? A. The governor one of his oil paintings. And so at that time Henry was looking around and he asked me which one. And I said, “No, it’s your gift to the governor. You pick the one.” And I think it was a mountain scene.
And I remember Henry writing something behind that. And later that evening the sheriff came and he said. “Oh, the governor was really touched by the painting and that,” he said, “we got our grant, Henry, you know, so everything is going to work out with the Georgetown commissioners.” And the hearsay around the jail was that they grant - - I don’t know if it’s true or not, but, I mean, the jailers talk and everything, that they got - - and I don’t remember what, $1,200 a month or $1,600 a month, something a month, something like the state of Georgia paid him $1,700 a month for Henry to stay in the Georgetown jail.
And I know that Henry used to drink coffee and look out the window and he said, “Well, I’ve got some more new patrol case for Sheriff Boutwell,” because we started getting all new cars. And then they - - we had - - the third floor was just added with - -
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The trusties would stay there, and he started remodeling that, which we really needed to. It wasn’t - - It was a necessity.
But I don’t know if the - - I guess the county paid for it or something, but the remodeling came and Henry said, “Well, I’m remodeling the floor.” I said, “Henry, I’m sure that’s the county money, but I don’t know.
Q. Okay. It was your opinion that at least one other state and maybe more were contributing sizable sums of money to Henry’s stay in Georgetown, Texas? A. Yes - - I’m sorry.
Q. Did there come a time when you finally realized that the confessions of Henry Lee Lucas were untrue, and if so, would you describe that briefly to the Court? A. When I figured something was wrong when investigators from the Attorney General Jim Mattox’ office, Mike Feary, came and started investigating. And the rangers were real uptight about it and everything, and they started asking if I received any money for any books or anything. And I showed them all of the contracts were - - I believe that’s where if he would ever get his book published I would be able to give so much to the New Life Jail Ministry.
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Q. Let’s just go into that. How many contracts for books were there that you know of? A. Aynesworth has the original. Then they took - -
Q. Who were - - What people or what entities were to receive monies from that publication? A. Henry Lee Lucas was supposed to receive five percent royalties from the Aynesworth book, and then Judge Carter said that he could not receive any - - any money could not go to Henry, it would have to go to a victim’s fund. And so Henry - - I don’t know if he told Aynesworth or wrote him, if he could make a donation to New Life Jail Ministry. So Aynesworth told me that he would give the five percent to the New Life Jail Ministry.
Q. Okay. Who else had a contract? A. Okay. Bob Prince introduced Mike Dodd - - oh, wait. I forgot the man in Waco, Johnny Dobbs, Johnny Dobbs to Henry when Henry was in Waco.
And Henry called me up and he said, “I’ve got $200 for you for the New Life Jail Ministry in cash and I signed a contract” - - and I forget the percentage, maybe like 17 percent would go to New Life Jail Ministries and, “I signed a contract with Johnny Dobbs.”
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And I said, “Henry,” I said, “you’ve got a contract with Aynesworth.” And he said, “Well, they said it’s all right. I can sign this contract with Johnny Dobbs.”
And I said, “Well, where are you?” And he said, “At the Texas Rangers’ office.”
And so that was - - I - - So I took the $200 and I went to an attorney - - and I said, “We have different contracts here and everything.” And he said, “Well, to help you it will cost $500.” And I said, “All I have is $200.”
And he said, “You don’t think I’ll work free, do you?”
And I said, “Well, I do.” And I said, “And this is the $200 from Johnny Dobbs, and I want you to use this $200 to see about this contract and everything.” So there was a big - - I can’t even remember - - a lot of legal stuff about the contracts.
Then we have another one with Lee Betz. We have another contract with - -
Q. Was there a Louisiana publication?
A. Yes, a Max Call, and that is from Huntington House. And I don’t even remember the percentage that
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goes to the New Life Jail Ministry. We never saw any money from any of these things because the books - - well, one book was published, but it doesn’t sell.
Q. Were any members of the task force to receive any money from these books? A. I feel not. I mean, I don’t know what they did, but I felt like there was - - I felt like there would not be any kickback. I mean, I - - they just seemed happy that the New Life Jail Ministry would get the money.
Q. Do you recall one contract where one of the members of the task force was to receive a certain percentage? You don’t recall that? A. I know with Max Call - - with the Max Call book, Sheriff Boutwell was going to get two percent of the royalties and I think he received $2,000 for writing the forward in that book.
And when the grand jury started, Sheriff Boutwell told me, he said, “I’m not going to take that two percent because I could get in trouble” - - royalties from that book.
But I don’t recall any percentage - - of any rangers receiving anything from books. I don’t know what - - what the sheriff - - if he had a deal with Mike Cox or something, I’m not aware.
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But that book wasn’t written.
Q. Okay. Let’s go ahead to the time when Mike Feary from the attorney general’s office of the state of Texas came to interview you. Was that the first time that you became aware that there was some problem with the confessions? A. When Mike Cox - - I men, when Mike Feary came to the jail, he did not interview me. I did not actually meet him until I was in Waco. And - - But at this time I told - - I went up and I said, “Well, what are they investigating, Henry?” you know.
And he said, “Oh, the rangers have me killing everybody everywhere all over the state and it’s impossible.” And he said, “But that wouldn’t listen to me and they wanted to run it how they wanted to run it, so now they’re just going to have to live with it.” And I said, “Well, I’m sure if there was any errors made that they will find them and they will correct them.” I did not consider it a serious - - serious problem or not. But I was concerned for the task force, you know.
And so I went down to Bob Werner and I said, “Captain,” I said, you know, I said, “there are cases that I used to tell Bob Prince, like Conroe and San
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Antonio and different cases that I know about that Henry confessed to that he claims that he didn’t do, but Bob Prince said that he did commit the murders.” And I said, you know, “Maybe Henry is right. Maybe he didn’t commit those murders.”
And he said, “Well, I want to know about anything that you feel Henry didn’t commit.”
And I said, “Well, I can’t remember them all.” I said, “There’s a bunch.”
And he said, “Well, we’ll get Henry down.” So Henry came down and Bob said, “Clemmie says that there are some cases that you didn’t do.”
Q. Now, who was Bob Warner? A. Bob Warner was the captain that took Bob Prince’s position. He was a Texas Ranger.
Q. Okay.
A. And Bob Prince just disappeared. One morning he wasn’t there and Bob Werner was there, and he said Bob Prince needed to spend some time at home with his wife. And so they replaced him with Bob Warner.
Q. Okay.
A. Okay. So Henry came down and Captain Bob Werner said, “Henry, are some of these cases not yours?” And Henry said, “Yeah.”
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And he said, he said, “Well, why don’t you tell me which ones?” And Henry said, “Well, were do you want me to start?” And he said, “Well, you know, wherever you want to start.” And so Henry walked up to the map and he looked and he said, “Well, how many hours do you have?” And Bob said, “Just start talking.” So Henry poured coffee and he sat down and lit up a cigarette and he started telling a case. And he said, “It’s not mine. I was here.” And he told about another case, and Jill, the secretary, was taking notes of all of it. And Bob Werner never had any kind of expression. I mean, he didn’t say, “What?” or anything. He just sat there and he listened.
And it was like maybe about the twelfth case or something and I realized it was ten past 3:00, and I teach piano at 3:30 and I said, “Oh, I’ve got to run.” And when I brought Henry his supper I said, “Henry, what happened?” you know, “How did that end?”
And he said, “Oh, I got over 20 - - maybe around 26 cases.” And he said, “I had to stop because Bob said they wanted to check all of those
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out.”
And I said, “You mean 26 cases aren’t yours?” And Henry said, “None of them.” And I said, “What do you mean, none of those 26?” And he said, “Well, they’re going to check them out.” And he just avoided that.
And so I said, “I didn’t realize that you had confessed to 26 that were not yours.” And Henry said, “They won’t check it out.” And I said, “Oh, they will, because the attorney general is looking into it now.” Shortly after that he was taken to Waco on a Friday night.
Q. How did he go to Waco? A. Sheriff Jack came and kept him - - I forget - - A very nice man from Waco came and maybe there was another guard. I’m not sure. And I was upstairs ministering to prisoners and the jailer came and said, “Sheriff Boutwell wants to see you in the task force.”
And I ran down and Ed Walsh was there and Clayton and Bob Prince and the sheriff and these Waco people, and Henry was there and - - he was sitting there. And I said, “Henry, what’s wrong?” And I just knew something terrible was happening, and I said, “What’s wrong?” because everyone had just this
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Kind of shocked expression on their face.
And Henry said, “I don’t know.” And Sheriff Boutwell said, “Clemmie, we have some bad news, but we have some good news.” And he said, “The bad news is that Henry is going to Waco, and the good news is they are having a grand jury and Henry can clear everything up.” And I said, “Well, how long are you going to be gone?” And Sheriff - - looked at the other sheriff, Jack, and Sheriff Jack said, “I don’t know.” And Sheriff Boutwell said, “Oh, they’ll be back probably in ten days, two weeks, you know.
And I said, “When is he leaving?”
And they said, “Now.”
And I said, “Oh, he needs his Bible and I prayed with him and he walked out. We walked out in the porch. And it was nighttime, and they took Henry in the - - away and the sheriff and I stood on the door. And I - -
Q. How did he leave at that time? A. In a car.
Q. One car?
A. Yes.
Q. Were there any escorts?
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No.
Q. How did Henry usually leave the Williamson County jail? A. With a bunch of cars.
Q. When you say, “bunch,” how many? A. Well, it depended. Sometimes there would be three. Sometimes, you know, there would be more, you know. When he went to death row, he just rode in one car and there was just one escort. And I know when he went to different places, I mean, sometimes they would have a large motorcade - - Is that the word? Q. Motorcade.
A. Motorcade.
Q. Would they use their lights? A. Yes. And I know a lot of times there would be a lot of patrol cars. When I say, “A lot,” I think he said like 11 or something. I don’t know. Maybe some of those cars had reporters. I mean, I’m not sure. I can’t imagine 11 cars filled with lawmen and investigators, but maybe not. I don’t know.
Q. Go ahead. So he left - -
A. So I looked at Sheriff Boutwell and it was nighttime, and I said, - - I wanted to say, “What’s going on here?” But it was - - I felt this fear rise up, and I just thought, “I don’t want to know what’s
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Going on here.” And I just - - I stood there.
And I walked in and we all got into the task force, and I started crying and I went up to Bob and I hugged his neck and I just started crying. And I said, “What is happening?” I said, “What is happening here?” And I said, I said, “Did you guys foul up any kind of way?”
And he said, “No. No way. We ran a clean ship all the way. There were no mistakes.” And I said, “But there were at least 26 mistakes.” And he said, “There were no mistakes made,” and everybody was just real concerned.
And the sheriff came back and I hugged his neck and I hugged Clayton’s neck, and I was crying. And it was, you know - - Because I just sensed something very wrong was happening. And the seriousness of everyone and the concern, I mean, everyone looked fearful, you know, and shocked.
Q. Did you ultimately go to Waco? A. Then when we were getting ready to leave - - when Henry was - - before Henry left, I said, “Henry,” I said, “this sheriff and Bob and I will come to see you.”
And Sheriff Jack said, “No. This sheriff and Bob are not allowed to see him.”
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And I said, “Well, what about me?” And he said, “Yes, you will be, but no one else.”
And I said, “Well, why can’t they see him?” And he said, “IT’s a court order, but you will be allowed to see him.” And I said, “When can I come?” And he said, “When do you want to come?” And it was Friday, and I said, “On a Sunday.”
And so they said fine and they gave me the directions to the jail.
Q. Okay. Did Henry Lucas ultimately tell you that all the confessions were erroneous? A. When I went to see him on a Sunday in Waco he asked me, he said, “What’s going on?”
And I said, “What’s going on?” I said, “You tell me what’s going on.” And he said, “I haven’t seen anyone. I don’t know what’s going on.” And I said, “Henry,” I said, “nobody in Georgetown knows what’s going on. It’s happening to you and you don’t know what’s going on?” And he said, “No, I don’t know what’s going on.” And he said, “Maybe it’s an answer to prayer.”
And I said, “Well, what do you mean?” And he said, “Well, I’ve been praying for a long time for
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The Lord to move.” And he said, “But I don’t know if this is of the Lord or not.” And so I thought, oh, no, you know. I thought, oh, no, what happened? So the following - - maybe it was like a Monday, the very next day, or Tuesday - - I’m not sure - - I got a call from Vic Feazell, and he said he was the district attorney and they would like to talk to me.
And I said, “Is it concerning Henry?” And they said, “Yes.”
And so I went there and Victor took me in the room and he said, “Well,” he said, “we got Henry here because we knew the cases in Waco that he had signed to were not his cases.” And he said, “We couldn’t do anything. Our hands were tied and we had to get him here so we could get this all cleared up so we can get the real killers.” And he said, “We have reason to believe - - We can’t do anything with him having confessed to these falsely.” And he said, “We know that these are false confessions that he did in Waco,” and he said, he said, “But when we talked to Henry, he said, “he told us that he hadn’t killed anyone.”
And I said, “Oh, but that’s not true.” I said, “He’s a killer.” And I said, “You don’t
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believe him, do you?” And he said, “I don’t know what to believe. All I know, he didn’t do Waco.” But he said, “This might - - We can bargain for this, but now that we know,” he said, “I think what the man is telling me,” he said, “I don’t know what to think.” And so I just started crying. And I just - - and I said, “It’s going to be a mockery to the Lord, because he was - - he was a mass murderer confessing and doing good.” And I said, “And now, you know, it’s going to look like he’s nothing but a liar.” And I said - - And I was real upset. And so Vic would leave and come back.
And I don’t know how many hours I was there, but I just had pikes of Kleenex and everything because I just thought, “I can’t believe this and the task force wouldn’t do this.” And still I knew about the 26 that Henry said.
And so finally they said, “Henry is afraid he’s about to destroy the friendship, that you will not - - that you’re about to walk out on him because he has lied to you and he has deceived you and you will not stand by him.” And Vic said, “I want to know if you are going to stand by him or what are you
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going to say when you see him?” And I said, “I don’t know what I’m going to say.” I said, “I can’t - - I don’t believe it. First, I don’t even believe that he’s not a killer.” So when I saw Henry he was all - - very swollen-faced, crying. And I saw him, and he was in Truman Simon’s office. And I walked in and Henry stood up, and when he saw me he started crying and I started crying.
I said, “Henry, what is it?” And he said, “I just lied. Everything I said I lied except that I do care for you and I want you to forgive me. I couldn’t get out of it. I couldn’t get out of it. There was nothing I could do.” And they left the room and Henry and I were in that room. And when they came back we were still crying, and so they left us again. And then they came with lunch and we had coffee.
And Henry wouldn’t drink his coffee. He saw I was drinking coffee and he sat down and he started eating. And he doesn’t eat tomatoes, and he was eating tomatoes on a ham and grilled cheeses. And so, anyway, I was and he was very upset.
And he said, “I don’t want to hurt the
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Families. I don’t want to hurt the families.”
And I said - - He said, “They have buried their loved ones and now they are going to be right where they were and I’m going to have to hurt all of these families.” And he said, “I don’t want to hurt Sheriff Boutwell. I don’t want to hurt the rangers.” And I said, “But, Henry,” I said, if you were telling the truth, then they have hurt you,” you know. And then he said - - And I said, “How did you get the information?” And he said, “I was given the information. I knew.” He said, “Every time I would go in the task force I was given cases.” And I knew this was true because when I would there and investigators weren’t there, Clayton would have him in the office and they would be looking at pictures and going over cases. And I would knock on the door and open the door, that I was there for lunch.
And Henry would complain, “I am going to go insane, keep looking at these dead photos. I can’t stand it anymore.” You know, and he said - - and everything. He would complain about that.
I don’t know where I am.
Q. Well, you’re in the office of the district
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attorney.
Okay.
Q. With Mr. Lucas.
A. All right. So when I went - - when I went back to the jail, I mean, I cried all the way home. I don’t know what was what.
And I got to Sheriff Boutwell’s office and I ran in his office and I was - - I was just real upset and I was crying. And I said, I said, “Henry says that he is not a killer, that he hasn’t killed anyone.”
And he said, “What?” And he said, “That’s” - - I’ve forgotten the word he used, meaning crazy, “That’s not true.” And I said, “It is?” And I said, “I don’t understand what’s going on.” I said, “Tell me what’s going on.” I said, “He is a killer isn’t he?” And he said, “Of course.” And he said, “Look at these pictures.” And he showed me some pictures. And there was a saw and there was some wire. And he said, he said, “Now, this is what we found in Henry Lucas’ car” He said, “What do you see there?”
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And I said, “Well, I see spots on a saw.” You know, it was - - like he cut a tree.
And he said, “What do you think those spots are?” And I said, “Blood?”
And he said, “I don’t know. Could be.” And I thought, “Well, that’s funny. A sheriff would know if those spots on a saw would be blood or not.” You know what I mean? But at the time I thought, “Oh, that was a bloody saw.” And so he said - - And he started asking, he said, “Why would Henry say that?” What did they do to him there? They had to have done something to him.” He said, “Are they brainwashing him? Hos is Henry looking?” And I said, I said, “Oh,” I said, “he looks terrible.” I said, “And he’s not drinking coffee and he’s eating tomatoes.” And he said, “Oh, no.” And I was crying and everything, and so by this time some investigators came and were there from California. And Sheriff Boutwell said, “I need you to put on the tape everything that you see and that you think happened.” He said, “We are dealing with evil people.” And, I mean, “The way they came and they kidnapped Henry and everything,” he said, “we
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Have a real problem on our hands.” And he said, “You need to make a tape.”
And I said, “Oh, I’ll do it. Of course I will.” Q. Who is he speaking of when he said, “evil people”?
The people from Waco that came and got Henry, Vic Feazell and whoever - - I don’t know.
So I made this tape. I was crying, and I made this tape about how Henry was so emotionally upset and I believed that they were brainwashing him and that Henry was under a lot of duress and it looked like he hadn’t slept and everything when I made this tape.
And the next day or maybe a couple days later, I was supposed to appear on a grand jury. And when I got there I told Vic Feazell, I said, I said, “You know, I don’t even know who you are.” I said, “You could be a member of the occult,” because Max Call had just written this book, The Hand of Death, that Henry told him about the Hand of Death is the occult.
And I said - - When I asked the sheriff, I said, “Sheriff Boutwell, you never believed in the occult, the Hand of Death?” And I said, “Do you think that Vic could be a member of the occult, the
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Hand of Death and they - - and this is why they kidnapped Henry, because I don’t know what to believe.” He said, “I don’t know what to believe. It’s possible.” And so I told Vic, I said, “You can be a member of the Hand of Death. I don’t know you.” And I said, “You came and kidnapped Henry,” and I said, “but I made a tape.” I said, “I Made a tape and I told them how I think you brainwashed Henry here in Waco.” And he said, “Why would we brainwash him,” you know, and I said, “Because - - I don’t know why.”
And he said, “All we wanted was to clear - - get Waco cleared up.” He said, “I’m not interested in all this other stuff. I just want Waco cleared up.” And so I took the stand. Time went on. I took the grand jury stand and probably sat there about four hours. I don’t even remember what I said. I was in a total confusion, I think. I would go there and I would come back.
And Sheriff Boutwell wanted to know and the rangers wanted to know everything that was going on
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In that office. And I felt - - I would come to Georgetown and I would put on the Georgetown uniform. I would go to Waco and change and put on a Waco uniform. I felt I was a traitor to Georgetown - - I mean, a traitor to Waco and working for Georgetown.
And finally after a few days of that confusion and not knowing who’s good, who’s bad or is anyone bad, is anyone good in this world at all, what is going on, I said - - I went into the office and I said, “I can’t stand this pressure.” I said, “I don’t understand why this - - the whole Texas Ranger force and this FBI and marshals and everyone and why am I - - you are acting like I have to carry the whole load bringing all of this information.” I said, “Why don’t you-all just kidnap him back,” you know? I said, “I just don’t understand why I’m having to be this informer.” And I said - - And I said, “I don’t know. I’m not sure what - - that they are bad.” I said, “They don’t seem evil to me.” And I said, “They just don’t seem evil to men, but you are saying there is something with what - - how I see them.” And Sheriff Boutwell said - - No, I’m sorry. It was Bob Warner. He said, “You mean, you don’t know what side to take?”
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And I said, “No,” I said, “I don’t.” I said, “I am confused. I don’t know what side to take.” He said, “Well, you take the side of the law.” And I thought, “Yeah, of course.” And I said, “Thank you. I needed that.” And I walked out and I thought, “But Waco’s the law, too.” And I thought, “Now I’m right where I was.” You know, because - - and I thought, “We have two different laws here, you know.
So I said, “Sheriff Boutwell” - -
MR. JEWKES: Your Honor, I’m going to object on the grounds that the witness is being unresponsive and I would ask that we go back to the question and answer and try to speed things up with this witness.
THE COURT: I sustain the objection.
MR. JEWKES: Thank you, Your Honor.
Q. (BY MS. SIPES) So, Ms. Schroeder - -
A. Yes.
Q. - - you went back to Waco then. Is that correct?
A. I was just going back and forth, yes.
Q. Okay. And then after you were told that you should take the side of the law, what, if anything, did you do?
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I ended up in the hospital for two days.
Q. What was the problem? A. I - - My phone constantly rang and just the pressure. And I started crying. I could not stop crying.
And when that happened, then Henry recanted again, saying, you know, that he was a killer, and the story goes on and on.
Q. If I understand you right, you went into the hospital from a state of exhaustion? A. Yes.
Q. And that Henry Lucas, when informed of that, then recanted for a second time and said that ll of the killings were true? A. To a minister, Bob Norrison.
Q. Okay. And did this come out in the newspapers? A. I wasn’t even reading the newspapers. I’m sure it did. I mean, you know, I just - -
Q. Okay. And after you were released from the hospital what, if anything, happened? A. Everything was happening. I’m sorry. What was - -
Q. What, if anything, did you do? A. I went back to Waco and I said I wanted to - -
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I wanted to see some proof and see what they were investigating and everything. And so they told me to talk to Mike Feary and this is when I met Mike Feary and Mike Feary started showing me and telling me things that they had discovered.
And I was - - I - - I always said, “I don’t know. I don’t know if it was the visiting law enforcement that were involved in some wrongdoings or the Texas Rangers. I don’t know where the fault lies.” I mean, I don’t - - And I could not give any answers because I did not know who was basically, you know, feeding him information or anything. But I knew that he got some of it through letters and stuff.
So I told Mike Feary what I could, you know, so - -
Q. Okay. So the investigation continued in Waco. Is that correct? A. Yes.
Q. For a period of approximately how long? A. He left in April - - Georgetown in April, and I think he returned maybe the end of July.
Q. Prior to coming back to Georgetown, did you have a confrontation with Mr. Lucas regarding the real truth of the matter of the confessions, and if
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So, would you describe that to the Court? A. Henry said - - I asked him why, how could he do that and why? And he said, “I was arrested on a false gun charge.” And he said - - And then he said, “I was harassed - - before that I was harassed for Becky and Mrs. Rich.” And he said, “Then when I was arrested on false gun charges,” he said, “I was placed in the cold cell and not given cigarettes or coffee for four days and I wasn’t given an attorney.”
And he said, “And I was put under pressure and I was taken to Bowie Hospital and given a shot and then I was taken to another hospital somewhere and put in a padded cell.” And he said, “I couldn’t sleep.” And he said, “I confessed and I knew I was going to end up in prison and nobody would ever know about me and no one would ever find the truth and I would die in prison for something that I didn’t do.” And he said, “I was so angry and I thought if the lawmen are calling me a killer, I’ll be a killer. Then he said, “I wrote” - - I’m not sure, but maybe he said 72, maybe 80 - - I’m not sure of the figure. “I wrote all these confessions and gave them to the” - - I think Ryan, Ranger Ryan in the Montaque County jail.
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And I said, “Well, what are those confessions?” And he said, “Of people that I killed.” And I said, “But you said you weren’t a killer.”
And he said, “I didn’t kill them. I just gave those confessions because I thought it would hot the newspaper and then people would think I killed 80 people and they would start wondering and someone would investigate and find out that I didn’t, that I was arrested under false gun charges.”
And he said, “Nothing happened, so I kept raising the number and raising the number.” And he said, “I kept thinking somebody would investigate.” And he said, “And I was already up to 600, so then I started saying there were six countries, 1,000 in Canada.” And he said, “I just kept waiting for someone to come and investigate.” Q. Okay. Did you believe him at that time? A. Yes, I did.
Q. Has he ever recanted that statement? A. No.
Q. When he came back to Georgetown, what happened to Henry Lee Lucas? A. My children, my mother and my sister decided
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I needed a vacation, so they paid for my way and my girls to go to Jamaica. And the day I left for Jamaica, Henry was brought to the Georgetown jail. I was in Jamaica for three nights.
And I got in about 10:30 on a particular night and I went to the jail to check on Henry, and the catwalk is always open - - was always open and the food slot door was always unlocked.
And the jailer said, “I have to take you up because everything is locked.” And I said, “Oh, okay.”
And she said, “You aren’t going to like what you see.” And I said, “What do you mean?”
And she said, “I can’t say anything. You just won’t like it, but there’s nothing I can do.”
So when they opened the catwalk door, I mean, it was like an oven. It was just heat. My glasses steamed up. And Henry was sitting there without a shirt, and he had an old red handkerchief and he was hitting his back and his body was all flushed. And, I mean, before very long I was just dripping with perspiration.
And by the catwalk are two windows. And I said, “What’s wrong?”
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And she said, “The air conditioning is broken.” And I said, “Well, why aren’t these windows open?”
And she said, “We have orders that they can’t be opened.” And I said, “Well, why isn’t the catwalk door open?
And she said, “I’m telling you, it’s orders and I can’t help it.” And she said, “I come here and I sit and visit with Henry so I can leave the catwalk door open so the air conditioning from the hallway can get in.”
And so I said, “Well, I’ve got to go home, you know, and get some fans.” I mean, it was just a matter of minutes when I got out and my hair was just dripping wet. I don’t know how hot it was in there.
And so I was very angry. And I said, “Where is my fan?” I said, “Henry had my fan in here and where is my fan?” And they said, “We don’t know what happened to it.” And I said, “I want my fan.” I said, “It’s my fan. It was here,” because sometimes his cell would get above 78 because of the windows being there. And no one could find my fan.
So I went home and got another fan and came
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
There and plugged it in.
And I said, “Henry, what is going on here?” And he said, “They want me to recant it and go back to confessing,” and he said that Jan Peterson and an FBI man were there.
And he said, “There’s a court order nobody is supposed to see me, but they came and they wanted to know if I needed help and if they could help me in any kind of way and I said there was nothing.” And they said, “Don’t you want to say anything? Don’t you want to tell the truth?”
And Henry said, “I am telling the truth.”
And that Jan said, “Well, if I can help you and you change your mind, you let me know, and they left.
And so the next morning, the next morning I had to - - Sheriff Boutwell called me into his office and that is when he asked, he said, “I have never asked anything of you before, Clemmie,” and he said, “but we got” - - he said, “Henry - - you did wonderful work with Henry, but now Henry has turned his back on the Lord and he’s back in his old self.”
He said, “I don’t know what happened in Waco, but he’s back to his old self.” And he said, “I’m not blaming you for it, but,” he said, “we’ve
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got to get him back doing good and serving the Lord like he did.” And he said, “The only way we can get him back on the right track is for him to go - - is for you to tell him that you will have nothing more to do with him unless he will go back to confessing so we can reopen this task force.”
And he said, “There are people out there that will never be able to have any peace about their loved ones because this task force has been cut off before the job is completed.”
And I said, “I can’t do that, Sheriff.” I said, “I can’t do that to him.” And he said - - He got very angry and he pointed his finger and he said, “Well, then, you will be sending him to death row in the morning.” And in the morning they picked him up and took him to death row.
Q. And he left in one car? A. There was another car following in front of them. He left with other prisoners, yes.
Q. And he went to death row. But an individual that you named as Jan Peterson, she was an assistant United States attorney from San Antonio, was she not?
A. Right. And I met her with Colonel Adams and a lot of people in a meeting one night earlier with - -
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when this first happened in Waco. They were all there.
Q. And did you visit Henry in death row? A. Yes.
Q. And then eventually Henry was sent from Huntsville to where? A. At El Paso, here.
Q. To await trial? A. Yes.
Q. In the matter of this cause? A. Yes. And then that’s when I found out that the murder he was being charged with was the axe murder. And I said, “But, Henry, that’s the murder you had talked about earlier that you didn’t do.” And I said, “Why would you have confessed to it?” because earlier that summer he had told me about the horrible murder.
And he said, “It was like all the others. There was nothing I could do.”
MS. SIPES: Pass the witness.
THE COURT: Let’s take a break for about five minutes.
(A recess was taken.)
MS. SIPES: Your Honor, with the state’s permission, I would like to call out of order, prior
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to their cross-examination of Ms. Schroeder, Ms. Sandlin, Ms. Betty Sandlin.
THE COURT: All right. Is that agreeable, Mr. Jewkes? MR. JEWKES: The state has no objection.
THE COURT: Have a seat, please.
MS. SIPES: Your Honor, if I may. May I have you spell you name? THE WITNESS: S A N D L I N.
MS. SIPES: Your first name is B E T T Y? THE WITNESS: Yes.
MS. SIPES: Your Honor, this is in response to the earlier allegations that part of the confession by Mr. Lucas, statements that he made orally contemporaneously giving a written confession led to the witnesses at a local truck stop that purportedly were sold items from the home of Librada Apodaca by the defendant, Mr. Lucas. This is in response to that part of the confession as far as the defendant is concerned.
THE COURT: All right, Ms. Sipes. Go right ahead.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
BETTY SANDLIN,
Having been first duly sworn by the court to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, was examined and testified as follows:
BY MS. SIPES:
Q. Would you state your name for the record, please, ma’am? A. Betty Sandlin.
THE COURT: Ms. Sandlin, now, please move up a little bit and talk into that mike so that we can hear you.
Q. (BY MS. SIPES) And where do you reside, Ms. Sandlin? A. 10501 Sigma.
Q. How are you employed, Ms. Sandlin? A. I’m a waitress at Denny’s on Dyer.
Q. Okay. Ms. Sandlin, I’ll direct your attention to the spring and summer months of 1983 and ask you where you were working in May and June of 1983? A. At Jord-Inns Truck Stop at Airways and I-10.
Q. In El Paso County. Is that correct? A. Yes.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
Q. With regard to your employment at that truck stop, I would ask you if you were ever approached by any member of the El Paso law enforcement with regard to your presence or whereabouts in those particular months in 1983? A. At the time I was working there? Q. Yes, ma’am.
A. No.
Q. Okay. Were you ever called by a member of the law enforcement - - by a member of El Paso’s law enforcement and asked about it? A. Yes, I was.
Q. Who called you? A. Officer Perez.
Q. Will you tell the Court when it was that you first received a call from Officer Perez of the El Paso Police Department? A. In the first week of June 1985 at Denny’s.
Q. How can you place this as being the first of June 1985 that you were approached by the El Paso police officer, Detective Perez? A. Because I went to work there and my first day was the 29th of May. I was still in training. We had five days of training before we could go to work, and I was still in training. And when I got a
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Phone call, I said, “This can’t be because nobody even knows I’m working here yet.” Q. Okay.
A.And that’s how I know it had to be the first week of June.
Q. What was the inquiry made by Detective Perez? A. He asked me where I was at, I think it was, May the 27th or 28th of 1983. And I told him, I said, “I have no idea.” Q. And then what was his inquiry? A. He said, “Well, we know that you were working at Jord-Inns and that you did buy a blender and an iron.”
And I said, “You’re right, I did.” Now, what date it was, I have no idea, but I did buy it.
Q. Now, what did you tell Detective Perez about the purchase of that blender and iron? Were any other items sold or any other people there? A. All of the waitresses there, we all bought something, you know.
Q. Was a crockpot purchased at the same time that the iron and blender was purchased? A. Yes.
Q. Was a vacuum cleaner purchased by one of the
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waitresses at the same time that you purchased the iron and blender? A. Yes.
Q. And tell the Court, briefly describe what happened out there on that particular date or night, whenever those purchases were made.
A. Okay. On - - I work the floor. You know, I don’t have a whole lot of time to spend with one customer.
But he brought the stuff in or he asked if I wanted to buy anything or whatever. And some of the girls, the cashier, like she’s got more time than I do. So they started looking at the stuff. And I needed a blender and I needed an iron, you know, and he had them, so I bought them.
So we’d bring the stuff in - - He brought the stuff in and we’d plug it in to see it if worked, you know, before we ever bought it. And there was several other things, radios and I don’t know what all, you know, but they would try and didn’t buy.
Q. Do you recall the name of the other person who bought the crockpot and vacuum cleaner? A. Kelly was one, and I don’t know - -
Q. Kelly McMurray? A. Yeah, McMurray. And there was another girl
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there - -
Q. Kathy Watson? A. Yeah, Kathy. But I don’t know which bought what. I just know we all bought stuff at the same time.
Q. Okay. And at that particular time, did you make a purchase and in what manner? A. I got the blender and the iron. I didn’t have the cash with me, so I cashed a check at the register and I wrote it to Jord-Inns. I didn’t write it to him. I wrote it just to cash the check and then I gave him the cash.
Q. Okay. And after you had this conversation with Detective Perez, what, if anything, happened? Did he ask you for the check? A. Yes, and I don’t have my cancelled checks.
Q. Okay.
A. We went to the bank and got a, you know, a copy of the original.
Q. Did you have your check register? A. Yes, I did.
Q. And the original check register that you kept there at home? MS. SIPES: Can I approach the bench, Your Honor?
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
THE COURT: Sure.
MS. PENNOCK: Your Honor, the state has no objection to this witness being taken out of order, out of sequence, but we have got a little problem here. We didn’t anticipate at all that this lady was going to be on the stand and they’re asking for things we don’t have here in the courtroom, that we cannot put our hands on immediately.
We need a check register that is probably up in our office. They’re asking for the crockpot and iron, which is in our custody. And while we’re not objecting to going out of order, we don’t - - we can’t just kind of magic the things up. If they want to take a recess so we can go collect all of these items, whatever.
MS. SIPES: Your Honor, as far as the register is concerned, I asked Bill Moody for it this morning.
THE COURT: What is the register? MS. SIPES: The check register.
MS. PENNOCK: The check register.
MS. SIPES: Bill Moody said that - -
THE COURT: Well, if it’s a check register - - I don’t have one and I’ve been writing checks for 50 years.
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Ms. SIPES: No, she has one. Your Honor, she had a record.
MS. PENNOCK: Where you write your checks and keep your bank balance in the top of the checkbook.
MS. SIPES: And I asked for it and he said he would call Richard Jewkes to bring it down. I then asked Carol to let us see it and she said, “Well, it isn’t in the box where it has been, where she placed it.” I said, “Well, can I introduce a copy because I happen to have a copy?”
“There is no problem.” Now, it just occurs to me - - And they have this evidence because this case has been going to trial for two years now. I’d like to have her identify the iron and blender and the crockpot as being those items bought that night, and it shouldn’t be a big problem to - -
MS. PENNOCK: I’m not saying it’s a problem. I’m just saying I can’t wish it all down here in the room.
THE COURT: Where is the register?
MS. PENNOCK: Perhaps it’s in the office.
THE COURT: All right. Let’s take ten
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
Minutes to go find this stuff.
Let me ask you this, Ms. Sipes. Is there anything else you might need? MS. SIPES: The crockpot, the iron, the vacuum cleaner, the register. I’m sorry.
MS. PENNOCK: No problem. It’s just that everybody, I think, is trying to move it.
MS. SIPES: I understand it and I understand your problems. And I just want to see if we can’t get it all at once.
THE COURT: We will take a short break.
(A brief recess was taken.)
THE COURT: All right, Ms. Sipes. Do you have what you need now? MS. SIPES: Yes, Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right.
Q. (BY MS. SIPES) MS. Sandlin, after you visited with Detective Perez over the phone, did he ask you to come down to the police station? A. They came out and got me and brought me down here.
Q. And - -
A. Not to the police station, but down here to the district attorney’s office.
Q. Okay. And did you have an interview in that
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office? A. Yes.
Q. And who-all was present at that interview? A. Officer Perez and - - I don’t know the names. A tall fellow with gray hair. I seen him around out here today.
Q. Officer Uribe? A. I don’t know.
Q. Okay.
A. And is it Moody? Is it Bill Moody? Q. He is the assistant district attorney, Bill Moody.
A. Right, and him.
Q. And was Mr. Jewkes there? A. No, he was not at that time.
Q. And what did the interview concern? A. They were just asking me, you know, when I bought this stuff and how it come about.
Q. Did they ask you who-all was present at that time, who-all was present at the time of the purchase? A. I don’t know if they did or not because I didn’t remember, you know.
Q. Did they ask you about Kathy Watson and Kelly McMurray?
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Yes.
Q. Did they ask you about whether the crockpot had been sold to one of those girls at the same time you had purchased the iron and blender? A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Did they ask you to bring with you any banking records that you would have to show how you purchase those items? A. I don’t think at that time, because I didn’t remember - - you know, it was all so new that I had not even thought about paying with a check until later when I got to thinking about it. That’s - - That’s how I knew I had paid with a check.
Q. Did they show you any photographs at that time? A. Yes, they did.
Q. Did they mention to you the name of Henry Lee Lucas? A. Yes.
Q. And what did they say regarding Henry Lee Lucas? A. They told me that the stuff I had bought had come from this lady’s house.
Q. Okay. That’s what they told you? A. Right. I didn’t know where it had come
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
from.
Q. Okay. And did they show you any photographs of Mr. Lucas? A. I don’t know whether it was of him or not, because I didn’t know the man.
Q. Okay.
A. I still would know him if I seen him.
Q. You still would know him if you saw him. Do you see him now? A. No, I don’t know who he is.
Q. Okay. Did they show you any photographs at that meeting in the district attorney’s office? A. Yes.
Q. How many photographs did they show you? If you don’t remember exactly, approximate.
A. Approximately five.
Q. And did you identify anyone out of that - -
A. No.
Q. Okay. And did you tell them that you could not identify anyone? A. Yes.
Q. Did you describe for them the person that sold the items to you?
A. I couldn’t give a good description of him, no.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
Q. Did you give any type of description? A. No.
Q. Whatsoever? A. No.
Q. And it is your statement that the man that sold these items to you and to your friends came into the truck stop. Is that correct? A. That’s right.
Q. And that the items were plugged into the electric current there inside the truck stop and were checked out?
A. Yes.
Q. And that you had a full opportunity to view the salesman. Is that correct? A. Right.
Q. And this sale did not take place in some dark corner of the parking lot or anything? A. No.
Q. Or in a car? A. No.
Q. Okay. And you were unable to remember exactly what the man looked like?
A. I don’t remember because I never thought about it again, you know.
Q. Okay. It was impossible for you to
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
remember. Is that correct? A. I had just never given it a second thought, because there’s always people selling things down there, always, either truckers selling stuff or hitchhikers come in trying to get enough money to get to another town or something. You can always buy anything down there.
Q. Okay. Ms. Sandlin, I’d like for you to stand up now and look around the courtroom and tell me if you see the man who sold you these items.
A. No. Not to my knowledge, no.
Q. Okay. Thank you. You can sit down now. Did you give a statement to the district attorney’s office by having a statement types up and signing it? A. I don’t know. I can’t remember.
Q. You don’t remember signing a statement?
Did they ask you to go over your timecards there at the Jord-Inns? Did they show you any timecards? A. Not at that time, no.
Q. Okay. So I take it, then, that there was a later meeting, then, with the district attorney’s office or the police?
A. Right.
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Q. When did you next talk with the individuals either from law enforcement or from the district attorney’s office, and describe that for us, if you would, in your own words.
A. It was probably, I don’t know, I would say six months later that they came to the house, Officer Perez and this gentleman sitting here.
Q. Mr. Jewkes? A. And the lady, yes.
Q. And Ms. Pennock? They came - -
A. They came out to the house.
Q. Okay. And what was the purpose of that visit? A. Well, at that time they had my timecards.
Q. Okay. And are these the timecards that - - Do these appear to be the timecards that they had? A. Yes, they are.
Q. And did you examine them with them?
A. Yes.
Q. And what, if anything, did you-all discuss regarding those timecards? A. That I was at work on the dates, you know, that’s on the timecards.
Q. Okay. Did they show you a timecard that included May 26th, 27th, 28th, of 1983?
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
We looked at all of them.
Q. Okay. Did they show you a timecard that included June 27th of 1983? A. I don’t remember the exact dates, but I know we looked at the timecards they had.
Q. Okay.
(Defendant’s exhibits marked, D-46 and D-47.)
Q. (BY MS. SIPES) I hand you, ma’am, what has been denominated as Defendant’s Exhibit Number 47 and I’ll ask you if you can identify that for the Court, please? If you would, look at it and tell us what it is.
A. It’s my timecard at work.
Q. Is that your signature there at the top? A. No, it’s not.
Q. Okay. But that is your name at the top? A. Right, that is my signature at the bottom.
Q. Okay. So that is your timecard. And after you would work for two weeks at the Jord-Inns, when would you be paid? A. We got - - I don’t remember what the pay period was except it was every two weeks.
Q. And you would be paid two weeks late. Is that right?
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
That’s right.
Q. And this indicates that you were paid when? A. June the 6th.
Q. June the 6th. And does that reflect that you were working on May 26th and May 27 of 1983?
A. Unless I was off those days, yes.
Q. What does - - What does the exhibit in front of you reflect about your working at the Jord-Inns on May 26th, 27th, of 1983? A. Okay, right here, this is March. M A R is March. Right? All of these is stamped in March.
Right here is May the 20th.
Q. Okay.
A. There is nothing down here. Okay. Here is May the 27th right here.
Q. Okay. Does it have May the 26th on there? A. I’m off.
Q. Okay. And you were off. And on May 27th, what does it reflect? A. That I worked.
Q. That you worked. Okay.
(Defendant’s exhibit marked, D-48.)
Q. (BY MS. SIPES) Now, Ms. Sandlin, I hand you a timecard that’s been denominated Defendant’s Exhibit 48 and ask you if you can identify that
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
particular period for the Court, please? A. Okay. It was paid in July of 18th.
Q. Okay. And is that your timecard? A. Yes, it is.
Q. And does it reflect a date there? Does it have big numbers there where the supervisor writes in the dates? A. Of the day, yes.
Q. And does it reflect June 27th? A. Yes, it does.
Q. And what does it reflect as to your work on June 27th of 1983? A. Okay. I went in at 2198, whatever time that is because I don’t know what time it is.
Q. Okay. So you were working, then, on June 27th of 1983? A. Right.
Q. Okay.
(Defendant’s exhibit marked, D-49.)
(An off-the-record discussion was held.)
Q. (BY MS. SIPES) does the Defense Exhibit Number 49 also represent the fact that you were working on June 26th of 1983?
A. I was off.
Q. Okay.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
(Defense Exhibit marked, D-50.)
Q. (BY MS. SIPES) I’ll hand you what’s been denominated Defense Exhibit Number 50 and ask if you can identify that for the Court, please? Is that a time - -
A. This is Kathy’s timecard.
Q. Kathy Watson? A. Yes.
Q. And is that a timecard that was kept out there at the Jord-Inns? A. Yes, it is.
Q. And does it reflect a pay period for the month of June 1983? A. It was paid June the 6th, 1983.
Q. June the 6th? A. Yes.
Q. Is this for May of 1983? A. June 6th, 1983. All right. These are all wrote down in March, too.
Q. This is - - Is this for May of 1983? Is that correct? Because it was paid the first week in June.
A. Okay.
Q. Is that correct? A. Well, as far as I know, except these things are not right because - -
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
Q. What do you mean, “these things”?
A. Okay. The dates. This is the same as my card. They’re all down in March. And you use one timecard.
Q. Yes, ma’am.
A. You push it in and punch it. I mean, they wouldn’t have used one in March and the other side May because we didn’t do it that way.
Q. Okay. But from the supervisor’s markings there - - You told me that the big numbers are that of the supervisors? A. They are.
Q. As to the date. Is that correct? A. That’s right.
Q. And you were always paid after you had worked? A. You was paid two weeks late, yes.
Q. And so this reflects payment on what date? A. Well, it says it’s paid on June the 6th.
Q. So the timecard of Kathy Watson, then, reflects, does it not, that she was off on the 26th and 27th of May, 1983. Is that correct or not correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. That is correct. So Kathy Watson wasn’t
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working on the 26th or 27th of May, 1983.
(Defendant’s exhibit marked, D-51.)
Q. (BY MS. SIPES) I would hand you what’s been denominated Defense Exhibit Number 51, which purports to be the timecard of Kelly McMurray. Is that correct? A. Yes.
Q. It also purports to have been paid June 6th, 1983. Is that correct? A. That’s right.
Q. It also purports to have large numbers of the days - - or the dates there put on by the supervisor. Is that correct? A. That’s right.
Q. And does it reflect that Kelly McMurray worked on the 27th of May 1983 but did not work on the 27th? A. That’s right.
Q. Okay. So as far as the work record of yourself, Betty Sandlin, Kelly McMurray and Kathy Watson, and their - - whether or not they were present and working together on the 26th and the 27th day of May 1983, to summarize that information we would have to say that there was - - on the 27th that you were working, on the 27th that Kathy Watson was not
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
working, on either that day of the 26th, and that Kelly McMurray worked the 27th, as did you. Is that correct? A. No, she was off.
Q. She was off? A. She was off.
Q. Okay. So there was no - - During those two days of 1983, there was no period of time when the three of you were working together on that weekend. Would that be a correct summary of the timecard information? A. That’s right.
Q. While he looks at the record there, Ms. Sandlin, I’ll go on.
MS. SIPES: And I would move for the introduction into evidence of Defendant’s Exhibits 49, 50 and 51.
MS. PENNOCK: How about 28, Ms. Sipes? MR. PONTON: Here’s 48 right here.
MS. SIPES: I want to reserve it later to the Court.
MS. PENNOCK: 49, 50 and 51?
MS. SIPES: Yes.
MS. PENNOCK: The state has no objection, Your Honor.
Page 3278
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
THE COURT: They will be admitted.
(Defendant’s exhibit marked, D-52)
Q. (BY MS. SIPES) Ms. Sandlin, I’ll hand you what has been denominated Defendant’s Exhibit 52 and ask if you can identify that for the Court, please, ma’am? A. If that is the iron that was picked up from my house, that’s the one I bought.
Q. Was it that color? A. Looks like any normal iron.
Q. Okay. Is that the same brand that - -
A. I have no idea what brand it was.
Q. Okay. A General Electric. Does that - -
A. I have no idea what brand it was.
Q. Does that appear to be the iron that you bought at the Jord-Inns and then ultimately took to the district attorney’s office? I understand that thousands of those are made just alike, but does that appear to be - -
A. Like I said, if that’s the one that come from my house, that’s it.
Q. Thank you.
MS. SIPES: I move for admission into evidence Defense Exhibit Number 52.
MS. PENNOCK: The state has no objection,
Page 3279
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
Your Honor, for purposes of this hearing.
THE COURT: Be admitted.
(Defendant’s exhibit marked, D-53.)
Q. (BY MS. SIPES) And I would ask you, Ms. Sandlin, if you would examine what has been denominated as Defendant’s Exhibit 53. Can you identify that?
A. It was that color.
Q. Does it appear to be the blender which you bought sometime in 1983 at the Jord-Inns and subsequently gave to the district attorney’s office? A. As far as I know, yes.
MS. SIPES: Your Honor, at this time I would move for the admission into evidence of Defendant’s Exhibit Number 53.
MS. PENNOCK: The state has no objection.
THE COURT: Be admitted.
Q. (BY MS. SIPES) Okay. You state that at sometime, then, later that Mr. Jewkes and Ms. Pennock came to you home. Do you recall when that was? A. No, I don’t, not the exact date, no.
Q. How recent has that been? A. Well, it’s been five months ago, maybe.
Q. Okay. And what was their - -
A. Four months, I don’t know. Four or five
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
months.
Q. What inquiry did they have? A. We were going over the timecards and over my checkbook.
Q. Okay. Prior to then you had given them your checkbooks? A. Yes.
Q. Okay. I hand you what’s been denominated as Defendant’s Exhibit 46 and ask if you can identify that for the Court, please, ma’am? A. That’s my checkbook.
Q. That’s your check registry? A. Yes, I’m positive.
Q. And is that your handwriting? A. Yes, it is.
Q. And is that a written document indicating the number of the checks that you wrote, the person or entity to whom the checks were written? A. Yes, it is.
Q. And the date? A. Yes.
Q. Are the dates always correct on that register, Ms. Sandlin, if you could tell us? A. Unless I don’t write one in and then just come back in a few days, you know, and write it in.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
Q. Okay. Do you see any records in that recording as to when you wrote a check which was used to purchase this iron and this blender that have previously been denominated Defense Exhibit Numbers 52 and 53? A. Check number 304.
Q. Check number 304. And what date does it purport to have been written? A. It says the 25th.
Q. Of what month? A. June.
Q. And what year? A. 1983.
Q. June 25th, 1983. Is that correct? Can you be certain of that day? A. All I have to go by is this because I don’t know exactly what date it was.
Q. Okay. Can you be certain of the month? A. Well, yes, because all the rest of my checks is wrote in June.
Q. Okay. Can you be certain of the year, 1983? A. 1983, I guess.
Q. You are certain of that, aren’t you, Ms. Sandlin? A. Well, you know, I don’t know where I was on
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
this day, but - -
Q. But the record itself reflects there - -
A. Yes.
Q. - - that it is for 1983, does it not? A. That’s right.
Q. And it commences here, 1983.
A. Right.
Q. And then they are all in order.
A. That’s right.
Q. Is that correct? A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Now, do you receive your original checks back from your bank? A. Well, sure, I do.
Q. And have you looked for that original check? A. Yes, I have.
Q. And have you been able to locate it? A. No, I haven’t.
Q. Did you ever give it to anyone, to your knowledge? A. No, I did not. I have no record of 1983’s checks whatsoever, not just this one but none of them.
Q. Okay. Were you asked to make a search for those records by the district attorney’s office?
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
Yes, I was.
Q. And you were unable to locate them? A. That’s right.
Q. Did you subsequently get a copy of that check from the bank? A. These gentlemen did.
Q. From the district attorney’s office? A. Yes.
Q. I hand you what has been denominated as Defendant’s Exhibit Number 47 and ask you to examine that, please. I would ask you what check number does that purport to be? A. 304.
Q. Is that the same number of the check that is reflected in your check register? A. Yes, it is.
Q. And what date does it have written on it? A. Well, you can’t hardly tell from this check, but it’s June the 27th.
Q. Of what year? A. 1983.
Q. 1983. And who is it made out to? A. Nobody.
Q. And what is the amount of that check? A. $15.
Page 3284
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
Q. Is that the amount of money that you paid for these two items? A. Yes, it is.
Q. Is that your signature on the bottom of that check? A. Yes, it is.
Q. I would ask you to turn the exhibit over, please, Ms. Sandlin, and doesn’t it purport to indicate that the check was cashed, and if so, by whom? A. Jord-Inns of America.
Q. Jord-Inns of America. And does it reflect the date that that check was cashed through the banking records? A. June the 28th, I guess.
Q. Of what year? A. Well, it’s not down, but it’s 1983.
Q. Okay. Ms. Sandlin, I’ll ask you one more time: Was this the same date that you cashed the check that you bought these two items? A. Yes, it was.
Q. The iron and the blender? A. Yes.
Q. Is it the same time that your friend and coworkers bought a crockpot and a vacuum cleaner?
Page 3285
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
Yes, it is.
(Defendant’s exhibit marked, D-54.)
Q. (BY MS. SIPES) I would ask you to examine Defendant’s Exhibit Number 54 and tell me whether or not, number one, you can identify this crockpot, whether it is - - if you cannot identify it, is it alike or unlike the one that was purchased that evening by your two friends, Kathy Watson and Kelly McMurray? A. I have no idea.
Q. You have no idea? A. I cannot identify it, because I didn’t pay - - I was busy. I was working. I - -
Q. Was this - -
A. I just know that there was a crockpot bought, and I don’t know whether that was it or - -
Q. Does it appear to be the same size? A. Well, I don’t know.
Q. You have no idea? A. I didn’t pay that much attention to it.
(Defendant’s exhibits marked, D-55 and D-56.)
Q. (BY MS. SIPES) Now, isn’t it true, Ms. Sandlin, that sometimes shifts would overlap from one day to the next, a person worked in the evening or - -
Page 3286
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
Yes.
Q. And then the midnight shift. And so you could go to work on the 26th and also work on the 27th. Isn’t that correct? A. That’s right.
Q. I would ask you to examine these three timesheets which purport to be the time records of yourself, Betty Sandlin, Kelly McMurray and Kathy Watson, which have been in the custody of the district attorney’s office and are denominated for Betty Sandlin, Defendant’s Exhibit 48, Kelly McMurray, 55, Kathy Watson, 56.
They purport to have been paid in July of 1983? A. Right.
Q. Has the supervisor written the dates of the days in June on the three exhibits? A. Yes.
Q. And I would direct your attention, then, in each of those three exhibits to the 26th of June 1983.
Would you turn to that day on those three exhibits, Ms. Sandlin?
On the 26th?
Q. Yes, ma’am. Does it appear that you worked
Page 3287
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
on 6-26-1983?
Yes.
Q. From the hour of 2215 to 0640 of the date 6-27? A. Right.
Q. So you worked, then, from 6-26 into the early morning hours of 6-27? A. Right.
Q. I would direct your attention to Kelly McMurray’s timecard to the date of June 26th, 1983. I would ask you whether or not that record reflects that Kelly McMurray worked on June 26th from the late hour of 2194, just before midnight, to 0660 of 6-27? A. That’s right.
Q. Of 1983? A. That’s right.
Q. I would further direct your attention to the timecard of Kathy Watson on 6-26 of 1983 and ask you if that record reflects that she worked from the hour 1666 the afternoon of the 26th of June to the early morning hours of the 27th at 0300? A. Right.
Q. So as a summary, the three of you worked together on the 27th, in the early morning hours of June 27th, 1983?
Page 3288
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
Yes.
Q. Would that be a correct statement? A. Yes.
Q. From your interpretation and familiarity with those time records? A. Yes.
Q. Thank you. And June 27th of 1983 is the date of the check that you signed and which was cashed on the 28th by Jord-Inns of America on Defendant’s Exhibit 47? A. Yes.
MS. SIPES: I would move for the admission into evidence of Defendant’s 56 and 55, being the time records of Kathy Watson and Kelly McMurray.
MS. PENNOCK: The state has no objection, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Be admitted.
MS. SIPES: And exhibit 48, the time record of Betty Sandlin.
THE COURT: It will be admitted.
MS. SIPES: Did we admit 47, the check?
THE COURT: Yes, ma’am.
MS. SIPES: And did we admit 46? THE COURT: Yes, ma’am.
Page 3289
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
MS. SIPES: Thank you.
THE COURT: Now, wait a minute. Wait a minute. 46, what was - - What was 46? I don’t think that’s been admitted, but do you have any objection to that? MS. PENNOCK: The state has no objection, Your Honor.
THE COURT: It will be admitted.
Q. (BY MS. SIPES) Pardon me, Ms. Sandlin, but have I asked you if these items were purchased at the same time? The vacuum cleaner and the crockpot were purchased by your friends, Kathy Watson Kelly McMurray, and your purchase of the iron and the blender, are you absolutely certain that they were purchased on the same date?
A. Yes, I am.
MS. SIPES: Thank you. I pass the witness.
THE COURT: I don’t have 54 - - Yeah, I do, the crockpot. That has been admitted.
(State’s exhibits marked, S-22, S-23, S-24 and S-25.)
MS. PENNOCK: May I see the check register
Page 3290
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
and the checks? Thank you.
BY MS. PENNOCK:
Q. Ms. Sandlin, there are a few things I would like to just try to clarify a little bit. I don’t expect to keep you up there much longer.
I believe when you were testifying in response to Ms. Sipes’ questions, you said that the first time you came to the district attorney’s office that you really had no idea on what night you bought the iron and the blender. Is that correct? A. I didn’t have any idea.
Q. And really as of now, in terms of your own independent recollection of the date, aside from the check register and the check, you still don’t have any idea, do you, I mean, of the date? A. Not other than my checkbook.
Q. Yes.
A. Okay. Again just to clarify, Defendant’s Exhibit 47, which was the copy of the check - - Now, I’ve had State’s Exhibit Number 22 marked. It’s the
Page 3291
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
same check, is it not? A. Yes, it is.
Q. And it’s - - They are both rather poor quality copies, so whichever copy helps you or if you want to look at both of them. In the upper left-hand corner of Defendant’s Exhibit 47 and state’s Exhibit Number 22, is there a set of initials? A. Yes, there is.
Q. Does that appear to be the initials of Kathy Watson? A. Well, there is a W.
Q. Yes.
A. I don’t - - It looks like, “Okay,” something.
Q. Do you remember who okayed that check for you at Jord-Inns? A. No, I don’t.
Q. Do you recall whether or not Kathy Watson was an individual who did okay checks? A. She could have been. Anybody that worked the register that was a trainer or a supervisor or had some sort of authority could.
Q. Okay. But you can’t say whether or not - -
A. I don’t - -
Q. - - those are her initials?
A. No, I can’t.
Page 3292
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
Q. Okay. Now, that check does - - and again I know the date is hard to see and you mentioned the date was hard to see. That’s why I brought up this other copy. But the date written on the check is what? A. The 27th of June, 1983.
Q. I don’t mean to criticize your bookkeeping, but in your checkbook is a different date.
A. That’s right.
Q. The check register shows the 25th? A. Right.
Q. Now, I believe when Ms. Sipes asked you if the dates in here were correct, your answer was yes unless - -
A. That’s right.
Q. Okay. Do you sometimes have a habit of going back to the register and filling in information at a later date? A. Yes, I do.
Q. And sometimes the check - - Well, it looks like - - Let’s see. Let me look here.
It looks like - - Well, you pretty consistently write in who the check is to, though not always. I see nothing here that says, “D. D., shots.”
Page 3293
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
That was to a doctor’s office.
Q. You didn’t write in the name of the doctor’s office, you just wrote in what it was for? A. That’s right.
Q. So sometimes you write in what it’s for and sometimes you write in who it’s to? A. Right.
Q. But whatever is going to mean something to you is what you write? A. Right.
Q. Okay. Now, for check 304, this particular check, as in most check registers there’s two lines. And sometimes you - - I guess most people, but maybe not you. Do you systematically make the first line who it’s to and the second line what it’s for or is there a system? A. No, there is no system. I just write in so I know what it’s about.
Q. Okay. So for check 304 and June 25th, the first entry says, “blender and iron,” and then the second entry says, “Jord-Inns.” Is that correct? A. Right.
Q. Okay. And on the check itself, it’s just blank who it’s to. Is that correct? A. Right.
Page 3294
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
MS PENNOCK: The state would offer into evidence at this time State’s Exhibit Number 22, which is just a different copy of State’s Exhibit - - or I mean Defense Exhibit 47.
MS. SIPES: We have no objection, Your Honor.
Q. (BY MS. PENNOCK) Now, I want to understand a little bit about what you said. Ms. Sipes had you stand up and look around the room and see if you recognized anybody and you didn’t.
Do you remember at all what the individual looked like that sold you the blender and the iron? A. No, not really.
Q. So really what your testimony is here today is not that that man is not in this room but that you can’t remember. Is that correct? A. I very seldom forget people and I don’t see anybody in this room I have seen before other than the people I’ve talked to.
Q. I believe that you testified that on the night that you bought the blender and the iron you were trying out the property, plugging it in, making sure that things worked. Is that correct? A. Yes.
Page 3295
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
Q. You said that there was quite a bit of property. To the best that you can remember, describe every item that you saw that night. And I know that’s hard, but just to the best you can remember describe the property you saw.
A. Other than what we bought or including that? Q. Including what you bought. I mean, you have identified as best you can the iron - -
A. I got an iron and a blender, and I don’t remember which one of the girls got which. I know that one of them got a vacuum cleaner.
Q. Do you remember what kind or - -
A. I have no idea.
Q. Or what model? A. I don’t know what kind it was.
Q. Okay.
A. And one of the girls got a crockpot. And there was - - I don’t think it was a phonograph. I think it was a radio or a tape deck or something like this, you know, that they brought in and tried and nobody bought it.
Q. Do you remember what it looked like? A. No, I don’t. It was - - No.
Q. Anything else? A. That’s all I can think of.
Page 3296
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
Q. I’m going to show you, Ms. Sandlin, what has been marked for identification as State’s Exhibit Number 23 and I think this is a payroll card similar to the kind that Ms. Sipes was showing you. Is that correct? A. Yes.
Q. Now, this particular card indicates that it’s for the pay period ending June 11th, 1983. Is that correct? A. Yes.
Q. And it shows that this was paid on June 20th, 1983. Is that correct? A. Yes.
Q. Now, the first date for this period is May 28th.
A. Right.
Q. Is that correct? A. Yes.
Q. And does this card show that you were working on May 28th? A. Yes, I was.
Q. What hours did you work on May 28th? A. Whatever 1984 is.
Q. Okay. When did you leave? That is - - 1894 is when you came on. Is that correct?
Page 3297
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
Yes.
Q. And then what time does it show you leaving? A. I left at 0370.
Q. Okay.
A. And that - - whatever time that is.
Q. Now, I’m going to show you what’s been marked for identification as State’s Exhibit Number 24. Does this appear to be the card for Kelly McMurray? A. Yes, it is.
Q. And is that the same pay period, the period ending 6-10-83?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. Again paid on June 20th, 1983? A. Right.
Q. And again I want to direct your attention to May 28th, 1983. Does it show that Kelly McMurray worked? A. Yes, she did.
Q. Can you tell us when the card says she came on? A. She came on at 2388.
Q. When did she leave? A. At 0440.
Q. So that would be 4:40 in the morning?
Page 3298
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
I don’t know because - - This is like military time or whatever.
Q. Okay.
A. It’s not 4:40. It wouldn’t be - - That’s not the time it is.
Q. Okay.
A. It’s whatever time this means.
Q. In military time? A. Right.
Q. Okay. I’ll show you what’s been marked for Identification State’s Exhibit Number 25. Now, is this the card for Kathy Watson? A. Yes, it is.
Q. Again the pay period on June 20th, 1983? A. Right.
Q. And again I want to direct your attention to May 28th, 1983. Does it show that again on that day that Kathy Watson also worked? A. Yes, she did.
MS PENNOCK: Okay. The state would offer into evidence State’s Exhibits 23, 24, and 25.
MS. SIPES: We have no objection, Your Honor.
Page 3299
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
THE COURT: Be admitted.
Q. (BY MS. PENNOCK) Was it very often, Ms. Sandlin, that you and Kelly McMurray and Kathy Watson worked at the same time? A. We worked a lot together. But, you know everybody’s hours fluctuated. I might go in at 2:00 in the afternoon and work until 10:00 at night or I might work from 10:00 until 6:00. That was my usual hours.
But, you know, one day it would be one thing and maybe the next day something else. If they asked you to come to work, you’d come to work.
Q. Was there any kind of regular schedule at all in terms of - - Other than when they asked you to do something different, did you have a regular schedule? A. I worked 10:00 at night until 6:00 in the morning was my regular schedule.
Q. Was that always Kelly McMurray’s regular schedule? A. Kelly worked a lot nights, but she worked a lot of afternoons, too.
Q. How about Kathy Watson? Did she have a regular schedule? A. I think Kathy started out 10:00 at night,
Page 3300
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
And then eventually I think she wound up on the 2:00 to 10:00 shift - - I mean 10:00 - - yeah, 2:00 to 10:00 shift. I don’t know what she was at that particular time but - -
Q. I think that you testified earlier that it wasn’t unusual to see people selling property.
A. No, it’s not.
Q. How often would you see people selling property, every night or every other night? I mean, estimate how often.
A. Oh, at least, I don’t know, two or three times a month, at least.
Q. How long did you work at that particular place? A. Almost three years.
Q. Would it be fair to say that for the three years that you worked there at least two or three times a month you saw someone selling property there? A. Probably.
THE COURT: Folks, I’m ready for lunch. Are you-all? MS. PENNOCK: The state has no further questions.
THE COURT: Do you have anything?
MS. SIPES: We have no further questions.
Page 3301
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
THE COURT: May this lady be excused? MS. SIPES: For this hearing, but not for the trial, Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. Thank you.
Thank you, Ms. Sandlin. You can go on about your duties, your job, whatever.
Be back at 1:30.
(A lunch recess was taken.)
THE COURT: Okay. Mr. Ponton?
Sir, would you raise your right hand?
LARRY LaGROW
Having been first duly sworn by the Court to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, was examined and testified as follows:
BY MR. PONTON:
Q. What is your name, sir?
A. Larry LaGrow.
Q. How are you employed? A. I am vice-president/cashier of MBank Franklin.
Q. Were you subpoenaed by Ms. Sipes and myself to bring certain documents to court with you today? A. Yes, I was.
Page 3302
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
Editor's note: this is the official transcript and it runs verbatim, as the archive's rule for court records requires; nothing has been summarised or cut. Clementine Schroeder, known as Sister Clemmie, was the Georgetown woman who befriended Lucas in jail and became his most constant visitor and correspondent during the task force years; she is the witness the defence relied on for how Lucas was treated and what he was told. Her further testimony continues at page 3449. This archive records Henry Lee Lucas with eleven convictions, around three of them regarded as credible, against some six hundred confessions; the questioning in these pages is part of the mechanism by which that gap opened. It belongs to the El Paso County case and the 120th Judicial District, not to the Clay County trial already published as TRANSCRIPTS FROM THE TRIAL OF HENRY LEE LUCAS. Nothing said under oath in a transcript is a finding of fact, and Lucas in particular said a great many things that were not true.