By Christi Punteney
The El Paso County hearing continues, transcribed from the official record: the grand jury testimony of Lee Ron Howard and Joseph Reitz, the pretrial motions, and the grand jury testimony of William Olford Jr. and Linda Erwin. It runs verbatim. Pages 2773 to 3115.
LEE RON HOWLAND,
Having been first duly sworn by the Court reporter to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, was examined and testified as follows:
EXAMINATION
BY MR. PONTON:
Q. What is your name, sir? A. Lee Ron Howland.
Q. How are you employed? A. I’m a lieutenant, criminal division, Oregon State Police, Portland, Oregon.
Q. How long have you been with the Oregon State Police? A. This is my 20th year.
Q. How long? A. 20 years.
Q. And how long have you been in law enforcement? A. 20 years.
Q. And what is your educational background? A. I have I don’t know how many hours of training in law enforcement. I have attended Blue Mountain Community College, attended the University of Oregon, attended numerous other job training department schools.
Q. And where are you stationed with the Oregon state Police?
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Stationed at District 1 headquarters, Portland, Oregon.
Q. All right. Have you had an occasion to be in contact with a suspect named Henry Lee Lucas? A. Yes.
Q. When was your first contact with him by way of report or anything else? A. My first personal contact with him was on December 8th, 1983.
Q. And your first contact with any information about him was when? A. About mid-to late November of that year.
Q. Of 1983? A. Yes.
Q. And what kind of contact was that initial contact? A. Well, there were several of them. I don’t recall specifically, but we - - I know that we were contacted, the state police, myself was contacted by various law enforcement agencies, one being the Clackamas County Sheriff’s office, the Multnomah County Sheriff’s office regarding information they had received from the Texas Rangers regarding this gentleman being in custody and allegedly confessing to crimes throughout the United States, including a few in Oregon.
Q. And were you requested by the Texas Rangers to
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follow up on the possible Lucas involvement in homicides in Oregon? A. No, not necessarily requested by the Texas Rangers. We had an obligation to follow up on this information that Lucas and Toole had allegedly committed some crimes in Oregon.
Q. At that point in time in November of 1983, had Henry Lucas confessed to committing crimes in Oregon and had Ottis Toole also confessed to committing crimes in Oregon? What was your understanding of that? A. Prior to me going and contacting these people, yes.
Q. That was your understanding at that time? A. Yes. Ottis Toole had told the detective by the name of Terry from the Jacksonville, Florida, city police department that he had abducted a girl from a bus stop in Portland and subsequently killed her, and Henry Lee Lucas had advised a detective with the Sacramento County Sheriff’s office, Ray Byande, I believe his name was, that he was responsible - - he and Ottis both were responsible for the killing of a service station attendant out of Salem, Oregon.
Q. So there were at least three murders that Lucas had confessed to committing up there either by himself or with Toole? A. Yes, two or three. I just related two.
Q. Okay. I’m sorry.
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I believe there was also a third one, but those are the two that I specifically recall.
Q. And did you follow up on those two homicides when you received that information? A. Yes, myself and three other detectives representing Oregon and Washington followed up on that information.
Q. How did you do that? A. First of all, we received as much information as we could from the Texas Rangers as to the MO or the manner of these - - of the type of crimes, modus operandi of these crimes, and then we researched Oregon and Washington unsolved homicides to see if which of those might fit into this particular MO, which, by the way, was pretty broad. It was hard to narrow that down too much.
So we contacted numerous jurisdictions within Oregon and Washington states both, settled on 46 unsolved homicides, 11 in Washington and the others in Oregon that we brought back to Jacksonville and Georgetown, Texas, and talked to these gentlemen about.
Q. So essentially you went through the unsolved homicide in those two states and narrowed them down to the ones that generally fit the MO of Lucas and Toole and try to see if they could possibly might have committed those? A. Yes. Q. By interviewing Lucas and Toole?
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OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
Yes.
Q. Now, who did you interview first? A. We interviewed Toole first on December 4th and 5th, mainly. We also talked to him briefly on December 6th, 1983.
Q. And please describe for me that interview with Ottis Toole and the results of it.
A. Well, our interviews, we had four officers and we broke into two different teams. My partner was a Sergeant Mike Davidson from the state of Washington. The other team was Multnomah County Sheriff Sergeant Johnson and a Portland police detective, Dave Newburg. So we had two interview teams. The homicides, the 46 homicides were split equally among the two teams based on some jurisdiction, so my team which was team 2, had 24 of those, I believe.
Our contact with Ottis was at the Jacksonville County-City Police Department in an interview room. The results of the interview was that he did not implicate himself in any of those 46 homicides nor did he recall from memory or was he able to articulate any details regarding any homicide in the state of Oregon or Washington other than he felt that maybe they might have killed some people in those states.
Q. Did he detail to you any information about Henry Lucas or committing any murders with Henry Lucas? A. Yes.
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OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
Q. What was that? A. I’d have to go back to my notebook to get the exact amount, but I believe that Toole told us he admitted himself, acting by himself approximately 125 homicides, and then separately he and Henry Lucas working together committed over 200, which would have been somewhere in the neighborhood of 375 murders.
Q. And did he tell you whether those murders were confirmed or unconfirmed or anything like that? A. No. He had - - He was upset at Henry for having divulged his involvement in some homicides.
Q. The - -
A. He did talk about committing some murders but none in Oregon or Washington that he can give us any details of.
Q. Now, prior to that interview with Toole, had you ben familiar with any Lucas seminars or meetings or things of that nature? A. I was aware there was a meeting, I believe, in Monroe, Louisiana, or in Louisiana, I believe, a month or two prior to our teams going to Florida and to Texas.
Q. Did you attend that meeting? A. No, I was not aware - - Excuse me. I was not aware of the meeting at the time it was held. I subsequently learned of that at or about the time we left to go to Florida and Texas. And then I subsequently attended a
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OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
meeting in Sacramento, California, on December 13the and 14th, after we had interviewed Toole and Lucas.
Q. Where did you attend that meeting? A. In Sacramento, California.
Q. Okay.
Q. That meeting in Sacramento was after your interviews with Henry Lucas and Ottis Toole?
A. Yes.
Q. After you - - So what was the final result of your interview with Ottis Toole? A. Final result was that in our professional opinion he was not involved in any homicides in the state of Oregon or Washington.
Q. And when you interviewed him on those 46 unsolved homicides, did you share with him any crime scene details or photographs of victims or show him any maps of the area, things of that nature? A. Yes. We showed him photographs of victims, most all of them being live victims. We showed very guarded photographs which he could, for lack of words, maybe read, read something from the photographs.
Q. Did he confess to you to killing any persons in your - - in Washington or Oregon other than the 46 that you brought to him?
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OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
No.
Q. Did you next go to interview Henry Lucas in Georgetown, Texas? A. Yes.
Q. Was that directly from Florida to Georgetown? A. Yes.
Q. And when you arrived in Georgetown, who did you meet with first? A. I think a Bob Prince from the Department - - or from the Texas Rangers, and Clayton Smith, Clayton Smith - - I believe his last name was Smith - - from the Texas Rangers and also the sheriff.
Q. Did they talk to you about interviewing Henry Lucas? A. Yes. Although I had had prior contact with the Texas Rangers before leaving Oregon, too, with respect to interviewing Henry Lucas.
Q. And what was the nature of that contact? A. Telephone contact. That was to confirm the date that we would - - that would be made available to us to interview Lucas and we were also informed as to methods that seemed to be the most effective with respect to talking to Henry Lucas, which was, in essence, to show him photographs of victims and photographs of the crime scenes which help refresh his memory.
Q. The - - They requested that you all bring those kind
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OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
of things to Georgetown? A. Yes.
Q. Did they request anything else to be brought to Georgetown to help Henry refresh his memory? A. No, photographs of the crime scene and the victim was all that I recall that they - - They told us a little bit about him personally as far as how to treat him, what kind of cigarettes he liked.
Q. Did they suggest that Henry would appreciate you bringing him a couple cartons of cigarettes? A. Yes. I don’t believe we did, though. We will buy him cigarettes during the course of our interview, but we didn’t bring him any cartons of cigarettes.
Q. But that had been mentioned to you? A. Yes.
Q. By the Texas Rangers? A. Yes, and the type that he smoked and I don’t recall what they was, but I want to say Pall Mall for some reason. But I’m not sure.
Q. Did the Texas Rangers in your initial contact with you share with you share with you any information they had on Henry Lucas’ actual whereabouts during the period of time between his release from prison in 1975 and his arrest in June of 1983? A. Yes.
Q. And did that describe his possible traveling in
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OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
Oregon and Washington? A. Sir, we were provided with that information, to the best of my memory, consisted of two documents. One was a chronological time line as to the travels of Ottis Toole during that time period, and I do not believe that that time line listed anything in Oregon. It did in California.
The second document or paper, I should say, that we were furnished was a report by then Sergeant Bob Prince from the Texas Rangers to his supervisor which listed, if I recall correctly, 17 or 18 confirmed cleared murders that Lucas and/or Lucas and Toole had committed, and that list listed various dates and locations around the United States as to their travels.
Q. They - - Do you remember ever being told by them that Henry Lucas lived in the corner of Pennsylvania, Maryland and Delaware form ’75 to ’79? A. No.
Q. Do you remember being told by them that he lived in Jacksonville, Florida, from ’79 to ’81? A. I knew - - No, sir. To answer your question, I knew from conversations and documents that he had been in Jacksonville, Florida, and had lived there, but I was never advised by the rangers or anybody else of the exact date or time frame that he lived there. I mean, that inclusive time period of time is what I’m trying to say.
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OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
Q. Or that he lived in Texas from ’81 to ’83 with the exclusion of a period of a couple months in both ’81 and ’82 when he was in California? A. No. What were informed of was that they were attempting to prepare a chronological time line on the movements of Henry Lucas and that he could have been anywhere in the United States. The information they had at that time, they just didn’t know exactly where he was at different times because they were just getting into the investigation and just hasn’t been that much work done on confirming dates.
Q. And when was this that you were having these conferences with them? A. This would have been - - first contact would have been on the evening, I believe, of December 7th, which would have been telephone. But most of this came out, what I just testified to, on the morning of December 8th at the jail there in Georgetown.
Q. Of what year? A. Excuse me. 1983.
Q. Were you informed by Texas Ranger Clayton Smith or Texas Ranger Bobby Prince that a Maryland trooper named Fran Dixon had sent Texas Rangers documentary evidence showing that Lucas was in Pennsylvania, Delaware and Maryland from ’75 to ’79 and that that information had been sent to the Texas
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OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
Rangers in July of ’83? A. No, sir. They only confirmed dates that we were provided with was the dates he committed those - -
Q. Murders? A. That he committed those murders.
Q. So the only documentation that the Texas Rangers provided you regarding Lucas’ whereabouts was based on murders that had been cleared and not based on any work records or interviews with family members and things of that nature. Is that correct? A. No, sir. I believe there was the 17 or 18 murders on one document. The other document did list, you know, times, I believe, in Jacksonville, Florida, that referred to work records. We asked about that inasmuch as some of those dates would have been of an interest to us with respect to our 46 cases, and we were informed that those records were inaccurate, that checking on those work records showed that Lucas and Toole both had used stand-in people to collect their paychecks and you could not count on those as confirming their being in Jacksonville at the time and on those dates.
Q. Did the Texas Rangers tell you at the time they were talking about Lucas and Toole using those stand-ins that it was necessary that certain of those work records be disproved in regard - - in order that - - in order that Henry
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OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
Lucas be convicted for the capital murder of an unidentified victim known as orange socks? A. No, sir.
Q. Were you aware in December of 1983 that Henry Lucas was charged with the capital murder of an unidentified white female identified as orange socks whose body was found alongside interstate 35 near Georgetown and that Jacksonville work records showed Henry Lucas to be present in Jacksonville, Florida, on the day of her death? A. We were aware that he was under arrest on those - - on that particular homicide. We were given some brief details, inasmuch as I recall correctly, he led them to the location of where the body and been found, and the work records were discussed in that context. And that was not only our crime but other crimes those work records would have contradicted, and that’s why that topic of conversation came up as to why they were not accurate.
Q. So they were telling you the work records were inaccurate both regarding that crime and as regarding other crimes? A. Yes.
Q. Did you then - - Had you been - - Had you sent any materials to Henry Lucas prior to your interview with him in December of ’83? A. No.
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OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
Q. Had any materials been sent by you to the Texas Rangers to - - for viewing by Henry Lucas prior to that interview? A. No.
Q. Had the Texas Rangers requested that you send a synopsis of the crimes and photographs of the victims to them prior to your interview? A. We were informed that other agencies were doing that and that seemed to be a good method. It helped them schedule time frames for visiting officers, that they had dozens of police agencies and expected hundreds of police agencies to be contacting them and therefore it necessitated some scheduling as to the amount of time and cases we’re going to discuss. We were asked about - - asked to provide that information. However, number one, we would not have done that and number two, time would not have permitted us to, anyway.
Q. That wasn’t your way of conducting a homicide interview? A. No, we would not have done that. I would not have done that.
Q. Did you then proceed to interview Henry Lucas - -
Did the team of four proceed to interview Henry Lucas there in Georgetown? A. Yes. There was never more than two people in the
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OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
interviewing team 1 and team 2. We alternated, yes, we did. I believe we started about 1:30 on December 8th, 1983.
Q. And what was the result of your interview? Describe the interview and then describe the results to me.
A. Well, the interview was conducted in a small interview room that was provided by the Texas Rangers there at the jail.
Q. And did you ask Henry Lucas about his involvement in those 46 unsolved homicides in Oregon and Washington? A. Well, eventually, not initially.
Q. What did you talk about initially? A. Initially we asked him if he could recall from memory any murders that he may have committed in the state of Washington and then the state of Oregon.
Q. And did he describe some for you? A. Yes, sir. He first started out with a homicide, white female, that he claimed he committed in Vancouver, Washington.
Q. And how did he describe that crime? A. In essence, in summary form he described going to this second-story apartment and killing a young white female there and tried to give details as to the neighborhood. In fact, he didn’t try to give details, he gave extremely accurate details on this homicide right down to the description of the purse and the description of the
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OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
neighborhood, the building.
He had some difficulty in locating it in Vancouver. He was shown a map of Washington and gave us an approximate location of where the residence was. He gave us a very detailed statement as to that alleged murder, and when he was shown the Washington state map to try to pinpoint a little closer where it was in Vancouver, Washington, after he looked at the map, then he proceeded to tell us of five additional murders that he committed in the state of Washington after he had originally told us he had only committed one, which was the one in Vancouver.
Then he went on to give us detailed statements as to five additional murders in the state of Washington, and then he turned that map over and gave us 11 more homicides that he committed in the state of Oregon in very detailed descriptive statements.
Q. And so - -
A. There were more victims than that. One of the homicides was a family of five.
Q. So he described a total of 16 detailed homicide scenes in Oregon and Washington including one instance when he killed a family of five in Oregon. Is that correct? A. There were 17.
Q. There were 17? A. yes.
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OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
Q. And in each of those 17 homicides scenes he provided pretty accurate details about the crime scene and the victim and the manner of death and things like that? A. Yes, extremely accurate. Not accurate. Extremely accurate.
Q. Okay. Because my next question is: Did any of those 17 homicides occur based upon your follow up investigation? A. No, they did not.
Q. Did you and your fellow officers from Washington do a thorough investigation to determine whether any of those homicides that Lucas admitted to committing in Oregon and Washington had ever occurred? A. yes, we did.
Q. And are you satisfied that none of those homicides he described ever occurred? A. None of those homicides he described occurred in the states of Oregon and Washington.
Q. Including the death of the family of five? A. That’s correct.
Q. At a farm house? A. A ranch house in Bend, Oregon, yeah.
Q. Have you subsequently become aware that Henry Lucas has confessed to killing a family of five in a farm house in, I believe, Minnesota, Texas and - - well, at least Minnesota
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OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
and Texas in addition to Oregon? A. Sir, I’m aware that he has confessed to killing families of people in many locations wherein it’s my understanding details of those confessions were similar in many respects to the ones he gave me for Bend, as is true in a number of these 17 alleged confessions that many of those details may be consistent with other crimes that he has allegedly committed around the United States.
Q. And those details are similar with other crimes he confessed to committing around the United States? A. Yes, sir. Of course, when we went - - We took an initial statement. We went back and reinterviewed him on those same 17 cases and the details changed considerably. They weren’t - - They were not always consistent.
Q. Now, before we get to your second interview with him, I want to ask you about after your interview with Henry Lucas concerning the 17 homicides that he was involved in that he admitted, did you then ask him to describe to you his possible involvement in any of the 46 actual unsolved murders that you had in Washington and Oregon? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And how did you ask him about those crimes? A. Well, we used the Oregon map because it had already been used, an Oregon and Washington map, so he was familiar with the areas in Oregon and Washington based upon that map. I
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OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
Might add prior to ever showing him the Oregon map, he was not very familiar with the state of Oregon or Washington.
Out of those 46 homicides, the way we did it was most generally of those 46, we had a picture of living victim or living victims. He was shown that photograph or those photographs initially on each case to see whether he recognized any of those people.
There was - - Out of the 46, there was five of those where he felt that at least the photographs of the victims appeared familiar to him. In some of those cases he was also shown scene photographs that we were very cautious about what ones we should be showing him.
The bottom line was that he attempted to claim possible responsibility for five of those murders, none of which he was positive that he committed, but he thought that he might have been responsible because the victim looked familiar. And he gave - - If they were, in fact, the ones that he did, he gave some details as to how they occurred, and they were not consistent with the actual crimes.
Q. Was he provided any details of any of those 46 crimes by you? A. No.
Q. - - Or your team? A. No. We were very guarded. He was provided some details. I can’t say - -
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OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
Q. Photographs of victims? A. Yes.
Q. But he was provided the detailed descriptions of the manner of the crime or the things of that nature in any of those? A. No. Cause of death or manner of death, location of death, certain keys in the investigation that we withhold were not provided.
Q. Based on that interview and his admission that he was possibly involved with five of those 46, did you follow up on those five? A. We did not believe that he was possibly involved in those five of those 46 from the minute we walked out of the interview room, and I should say yes, we did follow up on them inasmuch as making sure that we did have an accurate accounting of the unsolved homicides in Oregon. But we did not go to some extensive six-month or year-long investigation on this. It was our collective opinion these were not - - that he was not responsible for these five nor was he involved in those five.
Q. He was unable to provide you with any accurate details of any of crimes, was he not? A. That’s correct. In the state of Oregon a confession is of no value unless it can be corroborated bu convincing evidence, and there was no way or method or did
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OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
He provide any corroboration on any of these cases.
Q. However, your team did decide to join - - to follow up on his possible involvement in the 17 homicides when you left there? A. Oh, absolutely. I should say that the Washington county deputy and myself with the state police and the other two officers with me were familiar with the most of the homicides in Oregon and Washington. We don’t have that many, and that was a period, I should say, between 1974, I believe, and 1983.
But naturally we did contact all of the jurisdictions in the state of Oregon and Washington and bounced off of them these 17 homicides. All jurisdictions were provided reports, reviewed reports and there is - - none of these homicides occurred as Henry Lucas described.
Now, may I clarify that a little bit inasmuch as on this original Vancouver, the original confession he gave us killing a female subject in Vancouver, Washington, Kennewick, Washington, Police Department after receiving this information felt that some of the details in Lucas’ alleged murder there in Vancouver could have fit into a homicide that occurred in Kennewick, Washington. And they did do some follow up independent of us and he was eventually indicted for a murder in Kennewick, Washington, that was similar in some reports to that original confession,
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OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
Although I want to say that during our contact with Henry Lee Lucas, he did admit or give a confession to a murder in Kennewick, Washington, which never occurred, a separate homicide.
Q. Do you know how - - Do you know whether Kennewick, Washington, detectives have done any additional work to try to determine the actual involvement of Lucas in their case and what their opinion of that case is now? A. I talked to the detective in charge of that case on Tuesday of this week, Detective Haven, and he informed me that the case is based pretty much on a high percentage of the probability of a blood match.
Q. That Lucas’ blood might be within - - that Lucas’ blood and the blood, perhaps the blood found on the victim, both are - - have a high degree of matching between them? A. Yes. It was a 99.56 of the population was eliminated from that particular blood type that they have from the suspect at the crime scene, which left whatever hundredths of a percentage of that is, and that Henry Lee Lucas fits within that percentage.
Q. And are you familiar that - - And are you aware that one-half of one percent of the United States population would be about six or seven million people? A. Well, I’m not sure what the figures would be, but I know it would be pretty high.
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OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
Q. Did he tell you this week whether they had any other evidence linking Henry Lucas to that crime other than his confession and the fact that Lucas might - - that Lucas and five million other people might match that blood? A. Sir, I can tell you this. He told me, if I’m permitted to tell you what he told me, he told me, sir, he was familiar with our report, which is why they got interested in that mainly because they had a young female who was killed in her apartment, in a second-story apartment. The original statement Henry Lucas gave me regarding a van murder in Vancouver, Washington, was similar inasmuch as the cause of death.
There was a lot of dissimilarities. There was more dissimilarities than similarities. By dissimilarities, I mean the - - all the details that Henry gave as far as the color of the apartment, the carpeting, the interior, all this stuff was off, but there was, at least in general terms, this much, enough interest, in any event, that Kennewick Police Department got ahold of the Texas Rangers and at the request of the Texas Rangers, forwarded to the Texas Rangers a complete packet of that homicide including victim photographs, crime scene photographs and a synopsis of the evidence in the case.
Thereafter, Detective Haven traveled to the state of Texas and interviewed Henry Lee Lucas, whereupon he was
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OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
extremely detailed as to this homicide.
Q. Lucas was extremely detailed? A. That’s correct, sir.
Q. It was only after the packet of materials regarding that homicide was received by the Texas Rangers that Henry Lucas was able to provide a detailed confession to that Kennewick, Washington, homicide? A. That is my understanding, sir.
Q. Now - -
A. We had a similar deal, I should say, that out of those 46 cases that we talked to Henry Lee Lucas about, there was a case - - there was a case out of Medford, Oregon, where a young, very young girl was abducted on her way to school and has never been found. Her body is still missing. We don’t have any kind of a packet. We didn’t have a photograph of this girl when we went to Texas, so we didn’t have anything to review with Henry on that other than just verbal communication.
But in - - Henry seemed to think that he might have been responsible for the abduction of a small girl. I believe he thought she was 12 or 14. This girl, I believe, in Medford was 6 or 7, which we were a little interested in when he started talking about that Medford area, also. Not the true murders that occurred but the 17 that he allegedly committed, he talked about abducting a small girl with a
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MERYL WERSINGER, C.S.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
Lunch bucket.
Well, in our follow up after we returned to the state of Oregon, that information, of course, was reviewed by Medford City Police Department, Sergeant Sweeney, I believe, and another detective who I talked to also this Wednesday from Medford Police Department, and because of some general similarities in that crime, Medford Police Department also contacted the Texas authorities, Texas Rangers, and under similar circumstances we were informed that they also forwarded a packet and photographs, that they subsequently traveled to Texas and interviewed Henry Lee Lucas. And at that time he was able to give some more accurate detail with respect to that particular homicide than he gave to us at our initial contact with him. He gave details of a similar type crime, but they were in no way close to that particular homicide.
So I believe the Kennewick PD and Medford PD cases maybe exemplify that I’m - - what I’m intending to testify to.
Q. Which is that Henry Lee Lucas was not able to independently provide any accurate details on either one of those cases? A. That’s correct, sir.
Q. So what is the bottom line, sir, on Henry Lee Lucas’ involvement in cases in Oregon? Page 2797
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From my professional opinion and that of my cohorts, the four people involved with me on this case, I do not believe that Henry Lee Lucas committed any murders in the state of Oregon.
Q. Do you have any information to indicate if Henry Lee Lucas was actually ever even in the state of Oregon? A. No independent corroboration whatsoever, sir.
Q. Have you tried to find such corroboration? A. I have. I have been in contact with several other agencies in the past years, and to my knowledge we can not place Mr. Lucas in the state of Oregon.
Q. And what about Washington? Do you know if any of your fellow detectives in Washington have been able to independently place him in Washington? A. I don’t believe they have.
Q. Do you know whether or not they have tried to do so? A. Well, obviously, sir, he is under indictment by Kennewick Police Department for a homicide. I do not know of any witnesses or physical evidence other than that blood that would place Henry Lee Lucas in the state of Washington.
Q. Did you have occasion to attend a Lucas conference in Sacramento, California, after your initial interview with Henry Lucas? A. I did, sir, I believe, on December 13th and 14th.
Q. Of what year?
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1983.
Q. And please describe that conversation to me.
A. Well, it was a conference that was hosted by the California Department of Justice, attorney general’s office, homicides investigation unit. The purpose of the conversation was to review principally with west coast and more specifically with California law enforcement agencies the information concerning Ottis Toole and Henry Lucas inasmuch as one or the other, mainly Lucas, had given confessions to a large number of homicides in the state of California and to review with the numerous police agencies operating within California, those cases.
Q. And what was the atmosphere like at that conference, if you can describe that, the feelings, the manner of presentation, the camaraderie or whatever you could describe at that conference? A. I’ll give you my personal opinion and that’s with talking to a lot of police officers there. I think there was a - - an excitement. I don’t want to say hysteria, but there was an excitement of these two may be the most, the biggest mass murderers in the histories of the United States, the serial murderers confessing to all these crimes.
There was a degree of urgency as to plan, a strategy, an organization, a central clearinghouse that the Department of Justice was going to act as, and there was an
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OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
almost two, maybe three factions of police officers there, those who felt that this was a righteous thing, those who didn’t know and those who thought it was a bunch of baloney. There was that division among the group.
Q. Was there - - Among the righteous ones who thought that Lucas and Toole were the most prolific serial killers in history, was there a sense of excitement and urgency about holding up their cases and exchanging their cases and clearing their cases? A. I don’t know. I don’t believe there was. Certainly there was an excitement on clearing - - maybe they could clear a bunch of unsolved murders in the state of California if, in fact, these people were responsible. Naturally there was that excitement, yes.
Q. In one fell swoop they could take these two men and draw a broad swipe through their list of unsolved murders? A. That - - I think that that would be pretty broad to make.
Q. Please describe in your own words. Don’t let me do so.
A. I don’t believe this - - they felt in one broad swipe. They could solve all their unsolved murder in the state of California. I believe we have some very professional police officers in the state of California.
Q. I understand.
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MERYL WERSINGER, C.S.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
And I do believe that there was an excitement that if, in fact, these stories were true and if, in fact, they would be corroborated that there could be a large number of murders in the state of California that could be possibly cleared.
Q. And these stories about these Lucas killings, these Toole killings were mainly coming from the Texas Rangers, were they not? A. Yes, sir. Although there has been some California police officers and some other police officers at the conference that has interviewed Lucas and Toole prior to our interview, and some of those officers felt that Henry Lee Lucas was accurate and responsible for their homicides.
Q. The - - Did any Texas Rangers make any presentations at that conference? A. Sir, I don’t believe there was Texas Ranger there. I have a computerized list with me of everybody that did, in fact, attend that conference.
Q. Were any law enforcement officers from Texas there? A. No, sir. I believe they were all western state officers.
Q. After that conference, did you return to Texas to reinterview Henry Lucas regarding those 17 homicides he confessed to? A. No, sir, I didn’t.
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OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
Q. Okay. Did you only go to Georgetown once? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you’re now satisfied Lucas committed no crimes in Oregon or Washington, to the best of your knowledge? A. Not to - - He certainly didn’t commit the 17 he confessed to in the state of Oregon and Washington. I’m absolutely certain he didn’t commit any of the 46 that we interviewed him. And my personal opinion is he hasn’t committed any crimes in the state of Oregon unless there is some information that would change my opinion.
Q. The - - Did you have any follow-up dealings with the Texas Rangers after your December ’83 trip to Georgetown? A. Direct contact with the Texas Rangers? Q. Yes, any kind of contact.
A. Well, myself and my partners there called several police departments that was listed on that original list that the Texas Rangers gave us on December 8th showing that murders had been cleared and because of our collective opinions, we called some of these police agencies. And I specifically called one who said that the case - - three of the cases there that Texas Rangers told us had been cleared by their agency as Lucas being responsible for those homicides advised us that no way did that occur, that they were not cleared homicides.
Q. Yet the Texas Rangers had specifically told you
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OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
that those police agencies had cleared those homicides? A. Not only told us that, sir, it’s on print form. They gave us a report indicating that that was on a report by Sergeant Bob Prince to his supervisors dated December 8th, the same day we were there.
Q. Were there any other follow up contacts of that nature that you engaged in with the Texas Rangers? A. No, I don’t believe we had much contact. I didn’t. I’m not sure about my other three employees that worked with me. I didn’t have much more contact with the Texas Rangers.
Q. Did they ask you after your interview if you cleared any cases? A. Yes, sir. They wanted to know if we cleared any cases and they wanted us to send down a list of the cases cleared so they could add it to their list.
Q. Were they disappointed that you didn’t clear any cases? A. I don’t know, sir. I don’t know whether they would have been or not.
Q. When they were talking to you about wanting to add cleared cases to their list, did that seem to be their number one desire at the time? A. I don’t know - - I don’t think I could - - I definitely believe that detective rangers, as would any police under those circumstances, would be very interested
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MERYL WERSINGER, C.S.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
In knowing how many murders the police might have cleared in their custody. I don’t know if that would be their number one desire or their intent or purpose behind that. I know that they were compiling that information.
Q. Including some information they provided you that cases were cleared that you subsequently found out was false? A. Yes. Well, sir, let me say this: Now, I don’t know for a fact that between then and now whether Henry Lee Lucas committed those three murders. What I do know is that when we talked to the officer in charge of that, those three investigations in the state of Nevada and told him what was on that list provided to us by the Texas Rangers, that he was upset and - - because his name was on there saying that he informed the Texas Rangers that those cases were cleared and Lucas was responsible for those murders when, in fact, that was not the case.
Q. And that was from the list provided you by the Texas Rangers dated September 8, 1983? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And when was it that you called those officers in Nevada regarding those cases? A. If you will give me a moment, sir, I think I can find it in my notebook. Sergeant Bud Johnson from Clackamas - - Excuse me - - Sergeant Bud Johnson, which was one of my partners from the Loma County Sheriff’s office, called Bill
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MERYL WERSINGER, C.S.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
Flippo with the Washoe County, Nevada, Sheriff’s office on December 12th, 1983, and asked him specifically about case number 5, 6 and 7 listed on the report by Sergeant Texas Ranger Prince dates December 8th, 1983, and Officer Flippo with the Nevada sheriff’s office said there was no way are those cases cleared.
Q. It was their opinion four days after Prince issued that report that Lucas was not involved in those homicides, was it not? A. That’s correct, sir, and we did not provide any information to the Texas Rangers or - - Well, number one, we didn’t clear any cases. Number two, this concerned us.
MR. PONTON: Pass the witness.
Thank you, Officer.
MS. PENNOCK: Just a few things I want to clarify.
EXAMINATION
BY MS. PENNOCK:
Q. I hope you understand I have not objected to a lot of things because this is a deposition and I don’t want to detain you.
A. Absolutely.
Q. To try to get information later. But in regards to what you were just talking about, I think you said that your partner called. Were you on the phone?
Page 2805
MERYL WERSINGER, C.S.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
No, I was not.
Q. So basically what we are talking about here in regards to these Nevada officers and their being upset is about third-party hearsay? A. Is absolutely hearsay, is what I was told.
Q. Again I’m not criticizing you, Officer. You were answering the questions asked.
A. I expected you to object, but you didn’t.
Q. No, I didn’t object because I didn’t want to delay things. I just wasted to clarify for purposes of the record what were talking about here is hearsay.
A. Absolutely.
Q. In regards to your contact, I think you said, of last week with Detective Haven in Kennewick, Washington - -
A. Yes.
Q. - - are you saying that Detective Haven told you that he sent a complete case file to the Texas Rangers? A. Yes, I believe that is exactly what he told me. Prior to him going down for the interview.
Well, he told me this homicide - - By the way, it occurred on November 7, 1978. The victim was Lisa Martini, said that the main piece of evidence in that case was the 99.5 percent blood type. He told me that at the request of the Texas Rangers, to send to them a live photograph of the victim and a complete synopsis of the crime scene prior to
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OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
going to Texas and interviewing Lucas.
Q. Okay. Let’s just stop right there because that’s what I’m interested in. To me and maybe to you or maybe not, there is a difference between even a complete synopsis and a complete case file.
And I’m just asking again, not criticizing what you are saying. I’m just asking you to recall to the best of your ability what it was he said. And if you don’t recall specifically, please say so, but what was it he was indicating to you had been sent? A. Did I say case file in my original testimony? Q. Yes. You said complete case file, I think. Maybe not, but that’s what we are doing. We’re clarifying.
A. He told me exactly that he sent a detective ranger a live photograph of the victim and a synopsis of the crime. Now, I will tell you that I talked to him with respect to what did he mean by a synopsis, because I was interested.
Q. Yes.
A. And he told me what a synopsis, what the synopsis was and that was sent down there to get and did give intimate details of that crime as any synopsis would.
And then if you would like, I could tell you what else he told me.
Q. Yes. Go on.
A. That he then went down and interviewed Lucas after
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MERYL WERSINGER, C.S.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
Sending the packet down there and Lucas’ interview with him was accurate enough, although he said he was not good on all the details but he was on quite a few of them, and that along with the blood type and also along with another homicide that Lucas admitted to up in Spokane, Washington, Shanney, Washington, they seemed to corroborate a little bit so they indicted him.
I also gave you the quote that he says, quote, I still have a hard time believing Lucas done this, close quote. I also informed this detective this is my call, and I was testifying under subpoena by the defense at this hearing.
Q. Now, you indicated that the rangers - - And again I’m trying to recall what you said just for purposes of clarifying. You said the rangers suggested that you forward a synopsis because other agencies were doing it and it was working out well. Is that correct? A. Yeah, they had requested that of other agencies. I have the exact date and time and name of the ranger that I talked to about that, if you would like.
Q. It’s not really necessary but go ahead. That’s okay.
A. That conversation was between myself and Don Overstreet, Texas Department of Public Safety, on Thursday, December 1st, 1983, at 10:35 a.m.
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MERYL WERSINGER, C.S.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
Q. But in terms of a requirement in order to get to interview Lucas, what was not a requirement? A. No, obviously, because we did, in fact, interview him, yes.
Q. Now, I believe you also indicated that you were given some information in terms of background information on Lucas in terms of interviewing techniques.
A. No, I don’t believe it was interview techniques, is what I would call interviewing techniques. I was told - - We were told that what worked best, because Henry had killed so many people, go so many things, you know, had so many crimes, that it was best to show a photograph of the - - What seemed to work best, I believe is what they told us, is to show a photograph of the victim and photographs of the crime scenes to help with his recall that he had.
We asked - - I asked some of my partners on December 8th whether Henry had confesses to any crimes he did not do, and they advised us, yes, he did, had, that he had, in fact, confessed to crimes that he obviously did not do. However, it was not intentionally - - intentional. It’s just that he committed so many murders that he couldn’t keep track of them. Sometimes they ran together and he might confess to a murder that occurred, that he said occurred in Texas when, in fact, that murder occurred in Louisiana.
And so that the best method to - - is to provide him
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OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
With the crime scene photographs and victim photographs to help with his recall, which is the worst thing that - - which we - - We didn’t have any problem with the victim’s photograph and didn’t have any problems with some of the crime scene photographs but not something you could read into. We were there to find out what he knew, not for him to find out what we knew.
Q. So you didn’t feel like the Texas Rangers were telling you here is the technique you have got to use and if you don’t do it, you are not going to interview Lucas? A. No. and if they would have approached us that way we would not have interviewed Lucas on any murders. I would have gotten through the system some other way.
Q. In fact, as an experienced investigator you did not feel intimidated into abandoning what you knew to be good sound interview techniques? A. No.
MS. PENNOCK: No further questions.
FURTHER EXAMIANTION
BY MR. PONTON:
Q. Nothing except I might add, for purposes of the record, you have been testifying today by looking at a notebook. Can you please identify that notebook that you have been referring to regarding these conversations and
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MERYL WERSINGER, C.S.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
these dates and times? A. Yes, it’s my notebook which I’m required to keep by the state police. It’s the dates November 28th through December 31st, 1983.
MS. PENNOCK: Would you repeat that, please? A. It’s my department notebook and it’s dated November 28th through December 31st. 1983.
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) You keep this in your possession? A. Yes.
Q. You still have it in your possession? A. Yes.
Q. Should it be necessary to refer to it again in the future? A. Yes.
MR. PONTON: No further questions.
MS. PENNOCK: Thank you. Nothing further.
(Deposition concluded at 4:25 p.m.)
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OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
THE STATE OF TEXAS )
)
V. ) NO. 43314-120
)
HENRY LEE LUCAS )
The Oral Deposition of JOSEPH REITZ, taken pursuant to the Rules of civil Procedure and Subpoena Duces Tecum, on Friday, October 3, 1986, at 4:35 p.m., in the Courtroom of the 120th Judicial District Court, El Paso, Texas, before Meryl Wersinger, Certified Shorthand Reporter and Notary Public in and for El Paso county, Texas.
Page 2813
MERYL WERSINGER, C.S.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
For the State: CAROL PENNOCK
Assistant District Attorney
City-County Building
El Paso, TX 79901
For the Defendant: ROD PONOTN
Attorney at Law
Suite 505
Caples Building
El Paso, TX 79901
I N D E X
WITNESS: PAGE
JOSEPH REITZ HOWLAND
Direct Examination by Mr. Ponton
E X H I B I T
EXHIBIT: PAGE
D-34 Report
Page 2814
MERYL WERSINGER, C.S.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
JOSEPH REITZ,
Having been duly sworn by the Court Reporter to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, testified as follows:
EXAMAINATION
BY MR. PONTON:
Q. What is your name? A. Joseph Reitz, R E I T Z.
Q. How are you employed, sir? A. I’m employed by the Baltimore city police department in the capacity of supervisor, firearms identification unit.
Q. Baltimore, Maryland? A. Baltimore, Maryland.
Q. How long have you been so employed? A. I have been employed since 1960.
Q. With the Baltimore city police department? A. Yes.
Q. Have you been - - Were you in law enforcement any time before 1960? A. Yes, I was - - No, not before 1960, no, sir.
Q. So you have been with the Baltimore Police Department for 26 years? A. Yes, sir.
Page 2815
MERYL WERSINGER, C.S.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
Q. And your duties are in their firearms section? A. Yes.
Q. Did you ever have an occasion, sir, to do any investigation into a person named Henry Lee Lucas or any offenses committed by him?
A. Yes, I did. Not an investigation into Henry Lucas, but in a case involving Henry Lucas.
Q. What was that case, sir? A. I was called by the state’s attorney down in Louisiana in regard to a homicide that they were investigating and he inquired as to the characteristics of a certain weapon that was in possession of a Lieutenant Mobley in Elkton, Maryland.
Q. Is that Lieutenant Richard Mobley who testified here in this court this morning? A. Yes, sir, it is.
Q. And what was the inquiry concerning? A. The inquiry that the state’s attorney had was could the weapon that was in possession of Lieutenant Mobley have been used in the homicide that occurred in Louisiana, specifically St. Tammany Perish Covington, Louisiana.
Q. Do you know who the detective was from Louisiana who contacted Richard Mobley? A. No, I don’t, no, sir.
Q. And do you know what the homicide was in Louisiana
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MERYL WERSINGER, C.S.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
that he was inquiring about? A. I know that it was a police officer that was killed, but I don’t know the police officer’s name.
Q. And do you know the date of that crime? A. No, I don’t.
Q. Why were they contacting Lieutenant Mobley regarding this crime which had occurred in St. Tammany Parish, Louisiana? A. The information that I received from Ronnie Jenkins, who was the district attorney down in that parish, he said that Lieutenant Mobley in the Cecil County Sheriff’s office had a gun that belonged to a gentleman by the name of Henry - -
Q. Henry Lee Lucas? A. Henry Lee Lucas. I’m sorry - - Henry Lee Lucas and that he wanted to find out if that gun was capable of firing the projectile that they had from the body. When I questioned him as to what type projectile was it, he had advised that I contact someone down in the Jefferson Parish crime lab, which I did.
Q. And do you know who you contacted in the Jefferson Parish crime lab? A. Yes, sir. I spoke with Mr. Ron Singer, who gave me the information concerning the class characteristics of the bullet that they had removed from the police officer.
Q. And what were those characteristics of the bullet
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MERYL WERSINGER, C.S.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
that was removed from the police officer who was killed in St. Tammany Parish, Louisiana? A. Ron Singer told me that the bullet was a .32 automatic. It had five lands and grooves, right twist.
Q. Now, before we discuss the significance of that, let me ask you a little bit about your training and your background into ballistics and into firearms. What is that briefly, Officer? A. I started in 1965 with on-the-job training. I worked with people that had been supervisors in the Baltimore city police department for 20 years. I trained also with the gentleman who is with the H. P. White Ballistics lab in Bel Air. I attended the Smith and Wesson armers course in Springfield, Massachusetts. I trained at the FBI academy.
I belong to professional societies, Association of Firearm and Tool-mark Examiners. I’m a distinguished member of that. Belong to the International Association for Identification, past president of the Chesapeake Bay Division. I have attended approximately 14 annual seminars of the Firearm and Tool-mark Examiners organization. I have taught college courses on ballistics, firearm identification in Maryland. I qualified in the courts of Baltimore city and Baltimore County and federal courts in Maryland.
Q. Are you generally considered to be an expert in the
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MERYL WERSINGER, C.S.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
area of ballistics, firearms, firearms identification and tool-mark identification in Maryland? A. Yes, sir, I am.
Q. Now, the man from Jefferson Parish laboratory described this bullet to you, did he not? A. Yes, he did.
Q. Now, please describe for me the piston that Lieutenant Mobley had, how he obtained it and why he believed it was a pistol once owned by Henry Lucas.
MS. PENNOCK: I’m going to object to that, because Mobley was on the stand this morning to ask those questions and none of those questions were asked. This is not as if the state is requiring you to bring in a witness at great expense that you didn’t bring in. We are going to object on hearsay grounds and request that you go no further with this witness on the hearsay as to what Mobley said or how he had - - and just - - but I will not object to this witness going on and testifying in regards of his analysis.
MR. PONTON: If I might explain to you, Ms. Pennock, that I understand that Lieutenant Mobley was on the stand this morning. The time constraints I was under this morning led to my not having time to ask him these questions. I understand that this gentleman is here in deposition and that should his testimony concerning whatever knowledge he might have about Lieutenant Mobley’s involvement with the
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MERYL WERSINGER, C.S.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
gun, should that testimony ever be submitted, for instance, for instance, to a jury through this disposition or for any other purpose, that at that time I believe your objection would be sustained probably by the Court on that basis.
But for purposes of this deposition to explain what he did, I would like to go ahead and ask him to explain that for purposes of this disposition, not for purposes of proving up the pistol or what Lieutenant Mobley did with the pistol, for instance.
MS. PENNOCK: For purposes of the record, Mr. Ponton, you are not suggesting that either this Court nor the district attorney’s office placed time restraints on you that prevented you from fairly representing your client? MR. PONTON: No, Ms. Pennock. But the fact remains that we ran out of time this morning and Lieutenant Mobley had a plane to catch and knowing that, I allowed him to leave without asking him the pistol questions. So for the benefit of trying to still fairly present my case and fairly defend my client, I would like the opportunity to ask this man these questions which he has knowledge of, not to prove out of his mouth whatever Lieutenant Mobley did say.
MS. PENNOCK: I’ll just request that the witness very carefully distinguish between information that is hearsay that you received from some other source and what you personally have knowledge of, please.
Page 2820
MERYL WERSINGER, C.S.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) So let me ask you again, sir, please detail for me what you understand to be the manner in which Lieutenant Mobley received the pistol and his information regarding the pistol.
A. Okay. Before I can get back to my conversation with Ronnie Jenkins - -
Q. Please, please, let’s do it in whatever chronological order that you are most comfortable with.
A. Upon getting the characteristics of the bullet from Ron Singer, I informed Ron Jenkins that I could make no identification until such time as I examined the weapon. He said he would make arrangements with Lieutenant Mobley to bring the gun into our laboratory for an examination, upon which time he did and 7 August ’85, I examined a Smith and Wesson .32 caliber rimfire revolver that was in possession of Lieutenant Mobley.
Identified it as a model one-and-one-half second issue bearing serial number 110311. Identified it as a caliber .32 rimfire having a three-and-a-half inch barrel and nickel-plated. It has a pair of plain finished rosewood grips on bird’s head ground butt. It is a single-action revolver having a five-shot cylinder which rotates in a clockwise manner. The bore is rifled with five lands and grooves, right twist, and the approximate test bullet measurements are .105 thousandths land impression and 0.86
Page 2821
MERYL WERSINGER, C.S.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
Thousandths groove impressions.
The revolver will chamber and fire .32 caliber rimfire ammunition for which it was intended. It will also chamber .32 caliber short Colt cartridges but is unable to fire them as they are centerfire cartridges. This is a rimfire weapon.
As far as the weapon that Lieutenant Mobley had and where he got it, I knew that it was related to Lucas in some way, but I had no knowledge of an individual from whom he got it until today when the chain of custody was turned over to me along with the weapon.
Q. Okay. Do you have that chain of custody there with you? A. Yes, I do.
(Defendant’s exhibit marked, D-34.)
Q. BY MR. PONOTN) I will mark this - - I’m going to mark this as an exhibit. I’ll give it back to you or a copy to you.
Sir, I’ll show you what is marked as Defendant’s Exhibit 34. Can you identify that document? A. Yes, I can.
Q. And what is that document? A. That is a chain of custody on the .32 caliber Smith and Wesson revolver.
Q. Which you have just described?
Page 2822
MERYL WERSINGER, C.S.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
Yes.
Q. And it consists of two pages and a card showing the chain of possession of evidence. Is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And please read the log for chain of custody or please read the pertinent parts of the first page there in Defendant’s Exhibit 34.
A. “Investigating Officer Richard G. Mobley, number 307, case number I0607511 dated 7-6-83.”
Q. Okay. Let me short circuit this a little bit. Let me ask you if it says here the log for the chain of custody is that it was seized by Richard G. Mobley from Kiser on July 6, 1983, at 1850
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And that it - - And that that is what the indication is as to when Richard Mobley received this pistol? A. That’s correct.
Q. Okay. The pistol at issue that you have just described is - - Was that pistol received by you from Richard Mobley? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And when did you receive that pistol? A. 7th of August, ’85.
Q. And what did you do to test the pistol? A. I test fired the weapon in our recovery tank in the
Page 2823
MERYL WERSINGER, C.S.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
Laboratory using the ammunition that the weapon was intended to fire.
Q. And did you recover bullets from your tank? A. Yes, I did.
Q. And did you compare those bullets to the bullet recovered from the body of the police officer, but being a rimfire weapon, the type of bullet that was removed from the police officer could not have been fired from this type weapon.
Q. The bullet that was recovered from the body of the police officer was of what type? A. It was a .32 auto ACP.
Q. What kind of jacketed - -
A. A jacketed bullet.
Q. And it had five land and grooves, left-hand twist? A. Right twist.
Q. Right twist? A. Yes.
Q. Can such a bullet be fired from the .32 rimfire you have just described? A. No, sir, it cannot be.
Q. Was an attempt made to see if such could be done? A. Yes, sir. I attempted to take a .32 caliber
Page 2834
MERYL WERSINGER, C.S.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
Automatic bullet out of a cartridge case, reset it into a .32 rimfire cartridge, and the weapon cylinder would not accept the cartridge in that manner. The diameter is too large.
Q. In other words, the cylinder would not even spin around or would not even seat - -
A. The cartridge wouldn’t even seat in the cylinder.
Q. And based upon your knowledge and expertise, the bullet that was fired from the weapon which you recovered from your tank in your laboratory, does it have any similarities at all to the bullet that was described to you by the Jefferson Parish laboratory man? A. Only that it had five lands and grooves, right twist. That’s the only degree of resemblances between the two cartridges, the two bullets.
Q. Are you familiar or are you aware that Henry Lucas confessed to killing that police officer in St. Tammany Parish by using that .32 caliber pistol which you have described here today? A. Yes.
MS. PENNOCK: I’m going to object on the grounds that whether or not this witness is aware of that has absolutely nothing to do with him forming his opinion as an expert in this case and you are just asking him to speculate based on hearsay.
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) Did you ever testify before any
Page 2825
MERYL WERSINGER, C.S.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
proceeding in Louisiana regarding this pistol? A. No, sir, I did not.
Q. The pistol is here in your possession, is it not? A. Yes, it is.
Q. For purposes of the record, you are now pulling the pistol out of the envelope and I ask that you please, by examining the pistol personally here in court, please describe if for purposes of the record and then tell me if it’s the same pistol listed on your chain of evidence report.
A. Yes, it is. It is a .32 caliber Smith and Wesson revolver bearing serial number 110311.
Q. And the pistol now in your hands is the same pistol that you tested in your laboratory? A. Yes, it is.
Q. And the pistol in your hands is the same pistol that the chain of evidence report reflects was received by Richard Mobley from Leonard Kiser on July 6th, 1983? A. Yes, it is.
Q. That was the extent of your involvement in the investigation of Henry Lucas, was it not? A. Yes, sir, it was.
MR. PONTON: At this time for purposes of this record, I would move for the introduction of Defendant’s Exhibit 34, the chain of custody records, and I would not move at this time for the admission of this pistol into
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MERYL WERSINGER, C.S.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
evidence but I would ask you, Officer, if such became an issue you would be willing to return with that pistol in your possession or would you not? A. Yes, sir.
MS. PENNOCK: For purposes of the record, the state will object to the introduction of Defense Exhibit 34 on the grounds that the proper complete predicate has not been laid.
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) Defense Exhibit 34 here in front of me, sir, does this to be appear an original chain of evidence report from the Cecil County Sheriff’s Department? A. Yes, it does.
Q. And the log for the chain of custody on page 2 of of Defense Exhibit 34 indicates that it was seized by whom and the date and the time? A. By myself on today’s date, 10-3-86, at 11:58 a.m. from Lieutenant Mobley.
Q. And this reflects that this document is the same document that has stayed with this pistol during its entire keeping within the custody of Richard Mobley until it was turned over to you today. Is that correct? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And as far as you are able to tell, there is no additions, alterations or subtractions from this original document of the Cecil County Sheriff’s Department? A. None that I know of.
Page 2827
MERYL WERSINGER, C.S.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
MR. PONTON: At this time defense would move for - -
MS. PENNOCK: I’m going to object. Would you like for me to take this witness on voir dire as to this point? MR. PONTON: Please, if you desire.
BY MS. PENNOCK:
Q. Sir, you are not employed by the Cecil County Sheriff’s Department. Is that correct? A. That’s correct.
Q. And you are not the custodian of their records. Is that correct? A. That’s correct.
Q. And you can offer no testimony in regards to their procedures for generating or keeping records, can you? A. No.
Q. And you never saw this exhibit, which is marked as Defendant’s Exhibit 34, before today. Is that correct? A. That’s correct.
MS. PENNOCK: I’ll again object to the admission of defense Exhibit 34 on the basis of an improper predicate.
Page 2828
MERYL WERSINGER, C.S.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
MR. PONTON: Okay. I’m sure that’s the way we will leave the record at this time.
MS. PENNOCK: Yes.
MR. PONTON: This will be tendered until such time as there is ever a ruling on that issue.
MR. PONTON: That’s all I have for you, Officer. Pass the witness.
EXAMINATION
BY MS. PENNOCK:
Q. Sir, without questioning your expertise in the area or your testing of this weapon, just for purposes of the record I need to clarify, basically, your final opinion that a particular bullet was never fired from this weapon is based on a telephone report of that bullet. Is that correct? A. No.
Q. Did you examine the bullet? A. No, I did not. I - - The information that I received concerning the caliber of the weapon and examining the gun through my expertise, I was able to tell that that bullet could not have been fired from this gun, without having to use a microscope.
Q. But my question is: That’s your opinion, assuming the information that you got on the telephone was correct? A. Yes, that is correct.
Page 2829
MERYL WERSINGER, C.S.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
Q. Thank you, in fact, never had an opportunity to observe a bullet that was allegedly removed from the body of a police officer? A. No, I did not.
Q. And that your comparison and your opinion is dependent upon receiving correct information from another individual? A. Yes.
MS. PENNOCK: No further questions.
MR. PONTON: That’s all we have. Thank you, Officer.
(Desposition concluded at 5:15 p.m.)
Page 2830
MERYL WERSINGER, C.S.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CERTIFICATE
THE STATE OF TEXAS )
COUNTY OF EL PASO )
I, Meryl Wersinger, Texas Certified Shorthand Reporter and Notary Public in and for El Paso County, Texas, do hereby certify the facts as stated by me in the caption hereto are true; that the above and foregoing answers in response to the interrogatories as indicated were made before me by the witness hereinbefore named, after said witness had been first duly cautioned and sworn to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, and the same were thereafter reduced to typewriting by me or under my direction.
I further certify that the above and foregoing desposition as set forth in typewriting is a full, true and correct transcript of the proceedings had at the time of taking said desposition.
Given under my hand and seal of office on this the ______ day of ________< 1986.
___________________
MERYL WERSINGER
CSR #2177
220 City-County Building
El Paso County, Texas
(915) 546-2190
My Commission Expires: December 31, 1986
Original @ $ _______ to be paid by ________
Page 2831
MERYL WERSINGER, C.S.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
THE STATE OF TEXAS )
)
VS. ) CAUSE NO. 43314-120
)
HENRY LEE LUCAS )
OCTOBER 7, 1986
Page 3034
Meryl Wersinger, Official Court Reporter
El Paso, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
For the State: WILLIAM MOODY
First Assistant District Attorney
City-county Building
El Paso, TX 79901
RICHARD JEWKES
Assistant District Attorney
City-county Building
El Paso, TX 79901
CAROL PENNOCK
Assistant District Attorney
City-county Building
El Paso, TX 79901
For the Defendant: ROD PONTON
Attorney at Law
Suite 505
Caples Building
El Paso, TX 79901
Doris Sipes
Attorney at Law
1011 North Mesa
El Paso, TX 79901
Page 3035
Meryl Wersinger, Official Court Reporter
El Paso, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
WITNESSES PAGE
WILLLIAM R. OLFORD, JR.
Direct Examination by Mr. Ponton 3040
Cross-Examination by Mr. Moody 3064
LINDA ERWIN
Direct Examination by Mr. Ponton 3085
Cross-Examination by Mr. Moody 3093
Redirect Examination by Mr. Ponton 3112
CLEMENTINE SCHROEDER
Direct Examination by Ms. Sipes 3116
Page 3036
Meryl Wersinger, Official Court Reporter
El Paso, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
WITNESSES PAGE
LINDA ERWIN
Direct Examination by Mr. Ponton 3085
Cross-Examination by Mr. Moody 3093
Redirect Examination by Mr. Ponton 3112
WILLLIAM R. OLFORD, JR.
Direct Examination by Mr. Ponton 3040
Cross-Examination by Mr. Moody 3064
CLEMENTINE SCHROEDER
Direct Examination by Ms. Sipes 3116
Page 3037
Meryl Wersinger, Official Court Reporter
El Paso, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
EXHIBITS DESCRIPTION MARKED IDENTIFIED OFFERED REC’D
D-36 Letter 3163 3168 3169 3169
D-37 Letter 3163 3163 3166 3166
D-38 Necklace 3163 3192 3193 3193
D-39 Hot Sauce 3163 3193 3193 3193
D-40 Arrangement 3163 3195 3196 3196
D-41 Mickey Mouse 3163 3191 3192 3192
D-42 T-shirt 3163 3190 3191 3191
D-43 Cap 3163 3190 3191 3191
D-44 Statue 3163 3184 3184 3184
D-45 Item 3163
Page 3038
Meryl Wersinger, Official Court Reporter
El Paso, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
THE STATE OF TEXAS )
)
VS. ) CAUSE NO. 43314-120
)
HENRY LEE LUCAS )
BE IT REMEMBERED that on the 7th day of October, 1986, beginning at 9:15 a.m., came on to be heard the continuation of pretrial motions in the above styled and numbered cause, before the HONORABLE BRUNSON MOORE, Judge Presiding in and for the 120th Judicial District Court, and that the same was reported by Meryl Wersinger, Certified Shorthand Reporter and Notary Public in and for the County Court at Law Number Four, El Paso County, Texas, and that the following proceedings were had as follows, to-wit:
Page 3039
Meryl Wersinger, Official Court Reporter
El Paso, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
THE COURT: Would you please raise your right hand, sir?
Thank you. Go ahead, Mr. Ponton.
WILLIAM R. OLFORD, JR.,
Having been duly sworn by the Court to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, was examined and testified as follows:
BY MR. PONTON
Q. Please state your name.
A. William R. Olford, Jr.
Q. How are you employed? A. I’m an attorney. I’m also an assistant district attorney in Louisiana, 21st Judicial District of Louisiana.
Q. What parishes are in the 21st Judicial District? A. Tangipahoa, St. Helena and Livingston.
Q. How long have you been an assistant district attorney in Louisiana? A. I’ve been at various locations for 11 years, in New Orleans, in St. Tammany Parish and Washington Parish and now in Tangipahoa, St. Helens
Page 3040
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
and Livingston.
Q. How long have you been an attorney? A. 20 years.
Q. Were you an assistant district attorney in St. Tammany Parish when Henry Lucas became a suspect in certain homicides there? A. Yes, I was.
Q. Please tell the Court the homicides that Henry Lucas was involved in the investigation of.
A. Well, the first one that came to my attention was the death of Louis Wagner, which was a police officer, there was a Kenneth Broyles case that I became aware of, there was a Roxanne Sharp case I became aware of, and there was an Ann Manguno case I became aware of.
There were also - - There was also a lady that was like 84 years old that I never saw any reports on but heard talk of in the Slidell area.
Q. I think it might be easier if we started to go through them one at a time but briefly.
The Kenneth Broyles case involved the death of a police officer? A. No, sir. That was a death of a motel clerk.
Q. Okay. Well, excuse me. Let’s go over the Kenneth Broyles case briefly.
Page 3041
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
All right.
Q. When did that death occur? A. I’m not certain of the date, sir. I don’t know the date it occurred.
Q. When did the - - Let me show you - -
MR. PONTON: May I approach the witness, Your Honor? THE COURT: Yes, sir.
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) To help refresh your memory, I’ll show you a synopsis prepared by the Texas Rangers regarding Kenneth Broyles that might help you recall certain parts of that case.
Now, he was killed in 1982, Kenneth Broyles was? A. That’s correct.
Q. And when - - Do you know if they ever had any suspects in that case before Henry Lucas came along? A. No, no suspects that I know.
Q. He was a motel clerk who was killed. There were no witnesses? A. That’s correct.
Q. How was he killed?
A. He was shot in the back of the head.
Q. What kind of bullet? A. I think it was a .33.
Page 3042
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. Now - - And that was in 1982. When did Henry Lucas come along as a suspect in killing that motel clerk? A. I first started hearing of Henry Lucas in the beginning of 1984. January or February of 1984 was when I first heard of him through newspaper accounts, but from local - - from St. Tammany law enforcement, that was the first time I heard of it.
Q. Now, had - - When you heard about him through law enforcement, did you hear that he was beginning to implicate himself in cases which had occurred in St. Tammany Parish? A. Well, the first thing that I heard was that the criminal chief deputy, Wallace Laird, and a guy by the name of - - a detective by the name of Edgar McGeehee had gone to an ROCIC meeting and had talked with persons there and had determined or it was told to them that Henry Lee Lucas may have killed a police officer in south Louisiana.
That was the first thing I heard. I, of course, immediately knew that they were talking about Louis Wagner. That’s what they had in their mind, the Louis Wagner case.
Q. For the benefit of the Court, ROCIC is the
Page 3043
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Regional Organized Crime Information Center? A. That’s correct.
Q. And that is a regional crime information clearinghouse headquartered in Nashville, Tennessee? A. Right.
Q. Which has about 15 or so member states including Texas and Louisiana involved to share information about crimes. Is that your understanding? A. That is correct.
Q. And that they had been - - the ROCIC people had been provided information by the Texas Rangers and the Texas Department of Public Safety regarding crimes that Henry Lucas allegedly was involved in. Is that your understanding? A. Right.
Q. Now - - And so in January or February of 1984, you became aware that Lucas was being touted as having possibly killed a police officer in Louisiana? A. That’s correct.
Q. And you knew that the police officer - - Who was the only police officer in your area that you knew that had been killed whose murder had been unsolved? A. That was Louis Wagner, although we had felt that that murder and, in fact, been solved at that
Page 3044
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
point in time. And I even had conversations with the chief deputy concerning that.
Q. The chief deputy being Wallace Laird? A. Yes.
Q. The fact that you thought you had another suspect in that case? A. Well, we had another man that admitted to it and had pled guilty to it.
Q. Was that fellow named Willie? A. Right, Robert Lee Willie.
Q. What kind of sentence did he receive for that? A. A life.
Q. Was this before or after Henry Lucas was saying he killed this police officer? A. This was before.
Q. Did you ever review the case file where Henry Lucas admitted to killing Mr. Wagner? A. Yes, I have seen parts of that file. I have seen parts of his video statement concerning that incident.
Q. And are you aware that Mr. Lucas went into quite a bit of detail on the way that he killed that police officer?
A. Yes.
Page 3045
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
-
Q. He described the police officer, didn’t he, described where the crime occurred? A. Right.
Q. Described the way he killed the officer and where it occurred and other details like that, didn’t he? A. That’s correct.
Q. Now, did he ever admit to - - in that statement to killing that police officer with Mr. Willie? A. No, he did not.
Q. Who is Mr. Willie, for the benefit of this Court? A. Robert Lee Willie is a local - - was a local man from St. Tammany Parish that was convicted for a 1980 slaying of a young girl from St. Tammany Parish. Her body was found in Washington Parish. He was tried. It was a rape/murder. He was found guilty of first degree murder, sentenced to death.
The Louisiana Supreme Court reversed the sentencing proceeding. He was once again tried, once again sentenced to death, and I witnessed his execution in December of 1984.
Q. And did Robert Lee Willie at any time prior to his execution for that rape/murder say that Henry
Page 3046
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Lucas had killed Mr. Wagner? A. No.
Q. Did you question him about whether or not he killed - - anybody had helped him kill Mr. Wagner? A. Robert Lee Willie? Q. Yes.
A. Yes. He implicated two other people.
Q. And was this at a time when he knew that he was going to be executed for the other crime he had been convicted of? A. Well, I don’t think Robert ever believed he was going to be executed. I think he always thought he would avoid the electric chair. But he - - This was at a time certainly long before I had ever heard of Henry Lee Lucas, and it was a time when he was under s death sentence.
Q. And did your investigation uncover the fact that the other three persons may possibly have been involved?
A. Yes.
Q. In Wagner’s death? A. Yes, we indicted them.
Q. Okay. What is the status of those cases? A. Well, what happened is Robert Lee Willie’s father was in the Angola Louisiana Penitentiary
Page 3047
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
And some of the other three that Willie had implicated had relatives in Angola. They began threatening Willie’s father’s life at Angola, and Willie went before a judge and recanted the portion of his statement that said that the other three weren’t involved. He never recanted his own admission to involvement.
Q. How was Wagner killed? A. He was shot in the back.
Q. What kind of bullet? A. A single bullet, .32.
Q. Now, in part of the investigation of Henry Lucas as being involved in the death of Louis Wagner, did there come a time when there was some evidence, physical evidence linking Lucas to the death of Louis Wagner other than Lucas’ confession? A. I never thought so. There was - - You would have to - - Louis Wagner was a very popular young police officer in St. Tammany. His father was the principal of the largest high school in western St. Tammany. They were very well known people.
We poured over those reports time and time again, but there came a time when they said - - when I say, “they,” St. Tammany law enforcement said that a gun had been found that belonged to Louis Wagner.
Page 3048
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Louis Wagner was very close to his family. His family staunchly denied that any of his guns were ever missing. I argued with them quite a bit about that. There was never any proof that any gun - -
Q. The gun was never produced, was it? A. I never saw the gun and there was never any proof that any gun was taken from Louis Wagner at the time he was killed. There may have been one, but there was never any proof of it.
Q. Part of Henry Lucas’ confession was involving the fact that Lucas killed Wagner with a .32 caliber pistol that Lucas was in possession of.
A. Right.
Q. Do you recall that that .32 caliber pistol was ultimately recovered and ended up in Maryland or Pennsylvania?
A. I recall that a .38 caliber pistol was recovered that Lucas, I guess, identified. But that’s my understanding that it does not match the bullet that killed Louis Wagner.
Q. That’s right. But for a time was there not information given to you that Henry Lucas’ piston had
Page 3049
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
been found and that was a .32 caliber pistol and that that was the belief of the sheriff’s office there that Henry Lucas’ .32 caliber pistol had fired the bullet which killed Louis Wagner? A. Right.
Q. Now, on Friday afternoon, Ms. Pennock and I were here doing a deposition of a man named Joe Reitz who is a firearms examiner from Baltimore, Maryland, and he testified that the .32 caliber pistol which Reitz had been told was Lucas’ pistol was a .32 caliber rimfire and that that .32 caliber rimfire was incapable of firing the jacketed bullet that killed Louis Wagner.
MS. PENNOCK: Excuse me, Your Honor. I’m going to object to that simply for purposes of drawing to the Court’s attention since you were not here for that deposition that his testimony was that he examined the .32 caliber rimfire, but he never himself examined the bullet that was removed from the deceased officer. He only received a phone report.
Now, his opinion was that if the telephone report regarding that bullet were correct, then it could not have been fired from this gun. But he personally never examined the bullet.
MR. PONTON: That’s correct, Your Honor.
Page 3050
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
THE COURT: All right.
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) The - - In reviewing that report, however, were you aware that it was a jacketed bullet, a .32 jacketed bullet that killed Louis Wagner? A. Sure. And that was the bullet that was in the possession of Ron Singer, who is with the Louisiana crime lab who has been qualified every time he has ever been tendered as an expert in forearms identification.
Q. And did it finally become - - did it finally come to your attention that the ballistics tests of the pistol that Henry Lucas once owned and the pistol that Henry Lucas had confesses to having killed Louis Wagner with showed that the bullet found in Louis Wagner’s body could not have come out of Henry Lucas’ pistol? A. Yes.
Q. Louis Wagner died on June 3rd, 1978?
A. Right.
Q. Henry Lucas confessed to killing Louis Wagner in the spring of 1984?
A. Right.
Q. When Henry Lucas confessed to killing Louis Wagner, he also confessed that he killed Louis Wagner
Page 3051
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
while accompanied by Ottis Toole and Frank and Becky Powell. Are you aware of that? A. That’s right.
Q. You have reviewed that confession and that’s what Henry Lucas says? A. Right.
Q. Now, at the time when Henry Lucas came to St. Tammany Parish he went out to the crime scene where Louis Wagner was killed, didn’t he? A. I was told that, yeah.
Q. And are you aware that when Henry Lucas came to St. Tammany Parish he was accompanied by Texas Rangers? A. I was told that, too.
Q. Were you ever - -
A. I didn’t see Mr. Lucas when he came to St. Tammany and was not involved in any tour that he might have taken of St. Tammany Parish.
Q. At any time during the period of time that Lucas was confessing to killing Louis Wagner while accompanied by Ottis Toole, di d- - was your office told or were you told personally that - - by the Texas Rangers that Henry Lucas and Ottis Toole never met until February 15th, 1979, some nine months after this date Louis Wagner was killed?
Page 3052
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
No, we were never told that. We weren’t told that at that time. I never spoke with the Texas Rangers.
Q. Were you aware at the time that Lucas was confessing to this crime that the Texas Rangers had information that Henry Lucas and Ottis Toole never even met until nine months after Louis Wagner was killed? A. I was not aware of that at the time that he made his tour. We later became aware of that.
Q. When was that that you later became aware of the fact that Henry Lucas and Ottis Toole did not know each other when Louis Wagner was killed? A. Okay. We became aware of the possibility that they didn’t know each other as a result of our investigation. Our office assigned two people, one lawyer and one police officer, to try to conduct an independent investigation concerning the whole matter of Henry Lucas.
Q. Okay.
A. In St. Tammany Parish.
Q. And the whole matter involving henry Lucas in St. Tammany Parish involved not only Louis Wagner but it involved Roxanne sharp and Ruth Manguno and Kenneth Broyles?
Page 3053
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
That’s correct.
Q. And Kenneth Broyles was the motel clerk? A. That’s correct.
Q. And Louis Wagner was the deputy sheriff? A. Right.
Q. Roxanne Sharp was - - Who was she? A. She was a young white female from the Covington area, western St. Tammany who was found nude in a wooded area close to the fairgrounds.
THE COURT: You know, Mr. Ponton, haven’t we been over all of this? We have been over it all day yesterday. Why am I going over it with a third person? MR. PONTON: I’ll try to be brief, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Are you trying to - -
MR. PONTON: He had some personal knowledge about things that the gentleman yesterday afternoon did not.
THE COURT: Why don’t you ask him what it is? You know, I’m not so naïve that I can’t understand what there people are saying. I listened yesterday to Marion Farmer. I also listened to another gentleman, Ted Barr.
You know, the problem that I have is I don’t
Page 3054
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
need to hear this from three or four different people, the same thing. You may think I do, but I really don’t, Mr. Ponton. I’m not as near as smart as you are, I understand that, but I do believe that after once or twice it does sink in.
MR. PONTON: Yes, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Well, let’s get on to something new. Let’s get on to what this case is about. Let’s get on to whether or not this confession was properly taken. I have heard about the Wagner and the Broyles and the Sharp and the Manguno case for about three of four days now. Let’s go to something new.
MR. PONTON: Yes, Your Honor.
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) Specifically regarding the confessions by Henry Lucas to those four homicide in St. Tammany parish, did you become aware that the police officer who took - - initially took these cases, Ed McGeehee, had been in contact with Henry Lucas prior to Henry Lucas giving those confessions? A. Oh, yes.
Q. What kind of contact was that? And just very briefly tell me about that situation.
A. Well, as far as I know, he had been to Texas, wherever Lucas was being held, and had talked with him at some length.
Page 3055
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. Had told him about - - Had had the opportunity to tell him about those cases? A. He had the opportunity. I don’t know if he did or not.
Q. And after that meeting, Henry Lucas gave detailed confessions to those four murders? A. That’s my understanding, yes.
Q. And you have reviewed those confessions, haven’t you? A. Yes.
Q. Because you were the assistant district attorney in charge of the investigation at the time that Lucas confessed to those. Is that correct? A. I was the first assistant, and, yeah, I was in charge of them.
Q. Your office also did a subsequent investigation that showed that Henry Lucas had no involvement in those murders? A. Well, our office conducted an investigation that satisfied me that there was not sufficient evidence to indicate that Henry Lee Lucas had killed anyone in St. Tammany Parish.
Q. Did you find any evidence to link Mr. Lucas to ever even having been in St. Tammany Parish? A. Only that in traveling from Jacksonville to
Page 3056
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Texas there is the likelihood that he would have gone through St. Tammany Parish because there is an interstate there that enables you to bypass New Orleans and it’s the most direct route from Florida to Texas.
Q. Mr. Lucas was ultimately no billed by the grand jury in St. Tammany for those offenses? A. That’s my understanding. We left office in January of ’85.
Q. Henry Lucas’ confessions to those four crimes were given to Detective Ed McGeehee. Is that correct? A. Right.
Q. Those confessions - - Not only were those confessions detailed, but Henry Lucas took those officers to the crime scenes in your county? A. That’s what they said.
Q. Did Henry Lucas take - - Did Henry Lucas lead those officers to any evidence that they did not already know about? A. Not that I know of.
Q. Please compare those confessions to one that Mr. Willie gave your office regarding a confession - -
A. Well, I think in the Lucas confession, he says that Toole shot Wagner and then Wagner ran
Page 3057
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Across the road. That’s not what the evidence indicated.
Officer Wagner apparently was running across the road when he was shot. He was stooped over. Because of the trajectory of the bullet within his body, he was not standing upright at the time that he was shot.
Q. Did Mr. Willie subsequently give you-all a detailed confession to an unsolved crime? A. Yes. If you compare - - Willie, after being sentenced to the death penalty the second time, began cooperating with law enforcement, I think, with an eye towards trying to avoid the electric chair and told officers of the whereabouts of a body and all the Sheriff’s office had was a missing person report.
The sheriff’s office followed his directions. Willie did not take them to the body. The sheriff’s office followed his direction and there was a skeleton four-and-a-half-years old.
Q. A skeleton - -
A. Henry Lucas in St. Tammany Parish never took anyone to a body.
Q. Are you aware of the manner in which Henry Lucas was treated when he came to St. Tammany Parish to give confessions and to take the officers - - or
Page 3058
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
supposedly to take the officers to the crime scene? A. No. I understand - - I didn’t know this at the time, but I understand that the night or one night that he spent in the St. Tammany Parish jail, Officers McGeehee and Larroque spent the night in the cell next to him and I’m told discusses cases, these various cases.
Q. With Mr. Lucas? A. No, I’m told they discussed them between themselves with Lucas next door.
Q. I see. Are you convinced that Lucas had nothing to do with these four homicides? A. I’m convinced that there is no evidence to indicate that Henry Lee Lucas had anything to do with the homicides. I, of course, have no way of knowing if he did or he didn’t, but there is no evidence - - or not sufficient evidence to indicate to me that he did.
Q. At the time that Henry Lucas was confessing to these crimes, did the Texas Rangers or any other agency provide your office with any information regarding Henry Lucas’ actual whereabouts on the day those crimes occurred? A. No.
Q. But yet your office was able to subsequently
Page 3059
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
develop that information? A. Well, we had a running battle with the sheriff’s office in obtaining information on the Henry Lee Lucas case. They were more than happy to give us verbal information but very reluctant to put anything in writing.
As of the time that we left office in January, January 1st, of ’85, I’m certain that we did not have a complete file. Apparently the DA’s office there now does have a complete file. But at that time we didn’t.
Q. Did the Texas Rangers ever tell you that they had information that Lucas was in Hemet, California, the day Roxanne Sharp was killed? A. No.
Q. All the other physical evidence linking Lucas was never found on those other crimes? A. No. I kept telling the sheriff’s office that we - - that I was not going to accept a case based solely upon one of these confessions of Henry Lucas. There did come a time when they came to me and told me that they had a fingerprint of Henry Lucas involving the Kenneth Broyles case.
Q. And the fingerprint was never subsequently found, though, was it? Page 3060
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
No. As a matter of fact, they told me that a local man had identified a latent recovered and that - - and so I insisted that it be sent to either the FBI crime lab or the Louisiana State Police crime lab. We argued for about two months before I was able to get them to do that. They did not want to send the - - what they said was a latent print to any other lab.
Q. And that latent print subsequently disappeared, didn’t it? A. Well, they sent some prints to the lab and they came back negative and said that there was - - none of the prints were comparable to Henry Lucas. And then the sheriff’s office went around saying the DA’s office lost the latent fingerprints. We, of course, were never in possession of it.
Q. How much time did - - Over how long a period of time, Mr. Olford, did you spend as the first assistant district attorney investigating Henry Lucas’ involvement in those four crimes in St. Tammany Parish?
A. Well, over certain periods, over about six month. And I assigned the two men that conducted an investigation for our office and then worked with them. I never came to Texas nor went to Florida.
Page 3062
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. Did you do a thorough review of the case files on these cases and of Henry Lucas’ confessions to those cases? A. Yes, based on what we had.
Q. And did you do a thorough comparison of Henry Lucas’ confessions to those crimes in comparing those confessions to the actual facts of each crime scene? A. Yes.
Q. And in each case there were some very major variations, were there not? A. Well, the Roxanne Sharp case, for example, the FBI did a profile and told us that it was someone she knew very well that had killed her based upon his view of the scene and all of that, and we think that we know who killed Roxanne Sharp.
Q. Was it Henry Lucas? A. No.
Q. After that kind of review of those four cases and after that kind of review of Mr. Lucas’ repeated confessions to committing those crimes, as an assistant district attorney, now, what type of evidence would it take to convince you to prosecute Henry Lucas for a homicide? Would you do that based on his confessions? Page 3062
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
No. His confessions were disjointed. For example, on Ann Manguno, he had the time wrong. The - - They just did not, upon my experience, have that ring of truth that you look for in a confession. And I would want more than simply a confession, and told them that.
Q. If a case were brought to you tomorrow involving a homicide that Henry Lucas confessed to committing, would you require - - what additional evidence would you require before you would prosecute that case? A. At this point in time, I’m not sure I would prosecute any case - - Well, I know - - I don’t know. I would certainly want some sort of physical evidence that linked Mr. Lucas to the case/
Q. In other words, you would not want to prosecute any case involving Henry Lucas unless you had a fingerprint or a hair match or some type of direct physical link linking him to the victim of the crime? A. Well, that’s correct.
MR. PONTON: We pass the witness, Your Honor.
Page 3063
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
BY MR. MOODY:
Q. Mr. Olford, your major complaint in the handling of the investigations regarding the defendant Henry Lucas in this case - -
MR. MOODY: Wait a minute. Your Honor, maybe I’d better not proceed with no attorney present. I don’t want to - -
THE COURT: Bob, tell him to come in here.
MR. MOODY: I’d better not proceed. Do you agree, Your Honor? THE COURT: Yes. I can’t believe that he just walked out of this courtroom without addressing the Court of without - -
Mr. Ponton? MR. PONTON: Yes, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Do you realize that you just walked out of this courtroom leaving your client without representation, turning this man over to cross-examination without saying one word to this Court or to anybody telling us you were leaving? You just merely walked out. Evidently you feel that you have got complete control of this court.
MR. PONTON: No, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Is that it?
Page 3064
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
MR. PONTON: No, Your Honor, and I apologize for leaving.
THE COURT: I do not accept your apology, Mr. Ponton. Not only is it bad manners, it is also not representing your client.
Now, I don’t know what your problem is, but the rest of us have to sit and sit through this, but you walk off and don’t even give us the courtesy of telling us you’re leaving. I don’t understand it, Mr. Ponton.
Go ahead, Mr. Moody.
MR. MOODY: And so Mr. Ponton is aware, Your Honor, I did not proceed to ask any questions while he wasn’t present.
THE COURT: Thank you, Mr. Moody.
Q. (BY MR. MOODY) Now, Mr. Olford, the main complaint that you have against the investigation - -
THE COURT: Well, I was going to - - Excuse me. I was going to ask you to go get Mr. Ponton.
MR. DOW: All right, sir.
Q. 9BY MR. MOODY) The major complaint you have is leveled at the - - apparently the two St. Tammany Parish local officers, Ed McGeehee and - - was it Larroque or - -
A. Dennis Larroque. I really don’t have a
Page 3065
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
complaint. I think they mishandled the case. But certainly there were just detectives. My - - If you want to couch it in terms of a complaint, my complaint would be with the St. Tammany Parish Sheriff’s office and perhaps the higher-ups in that office.
Q. Okay. But, in other words, it was not leveled - - and in this case you’re not leveling the criticism as far as the way the evidence was handled, the way the reports were done in your-all’s cases to the Texas Rangers or the Department of Public Safety. They were merely reflecting in their synopses what Ed McGeehee or Detective Larroque or whatever these detectives would tell them.
I mean, they were not going down to verify; they expected that these officers were telling them the truth? A. I think that’s correct. As I said, I never talked with any Texas Ranger. I never saw any report from a Texas Ranger. The synopses are certainly wrong. I would assume that they got the information from someone in St. Tammany Parish.
Q. Yeah. In fact, on the end of each one of them it says, well, confirmed via either Ed McGeehee or - -
Page 3066
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
That’s right.
Q. Detective - -
A. Larroque.
Q. - - Larroque. It is apparently they who were supplying the information for the Texas Ranger reports. Was that your understanding? A. That’s correct.
Q. And if there was a problem in the investigation, it appears that the problem is occurring at a local level in St. Tammany Parish. Is that correct? A. Well, that’s right. That’s correct.
Q. And just like in all fields of law enforcement, and I don’t think you - - or you may be willing to make a ventured opinion, there may be a bad officer in the country. There is obviously bad police, there is bad doctors, there is bad lawyers, maybe even bad priests. I don’t know. You know, in every profession there are some that are not very professional and not very good.
But you’re not saying that just because they handled this case in a way you saw not fit, that doesn’t mean that all police officers mishandle homicide investigations, does it? A. Certainly not. But I have to say that the
Page 3067
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Henry Lee Lucas case has given law enforcement throughout the Southwest a bad black eye.
Q. And did the investigation, as far as - - You were not aware of the officers that handled the case here in El Paso. You’re not making any - -
A. No, sir. I know nothing about it.
Q. You’re making no direct attack on their credibility - -
A. Of course not. I don’t know anything about these gentlemen.
Q. - - or their ability, their handling of their case? A. That’s correct. I don’t know anything about that.
Q. The two cases that I was primarily interested in that I wanted to talk to you about a little bit were the Claudia Fabia case and the Roxanne Sharp.
Now, as I recall, you said Claudia Fabia was a case that occurred when you weren’t even in office? A. That’s correct. I have never seen a report on that. I have heard - - I have had verbal discussions about it but know very little about the case.
Page 3068
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. Were you aware that it was a case involving a very elderly lady, I believe 84 years old, in her home in St. Tammany Parish, that she was apparently beaten in her bedroom? A. That’s right.
Q. There was a lot of blood in the bedroom, that the house was apparently ransacked, that the house was entered through a bedroom window? A. See, I was never given that much detail. I don’t - - I really can’t say that I’m aware of that.
Q. And that those facts, if those are the facts, are fairly similar to the facts of our case here in El Paso County, the Claudia Fabia case, an elderly woman in her home attacked in her bedroom, attacked and also apparently sexually assaulted. All the factors were apparently basically the same. The Roxanne Sharp case, I think you may have more knowledge of that case than you did of the Claudia Fabia case.
Now, let’s see. I was looking at the reports on the whereabouts of Henry Lucas at the time of this approximate murder. The date the body was found was February 12th, 1982, according to these reports, and apparently she had been dead for maybe two, three, four days, not a great - - not a long
Page 3069
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
period of time? A. No.
Q. Apparently, like you said, Henry Lucas was living in Jacksonville at one time in ’82 and drove to Hemet, California, and driving from Jacksonville, Florida, to what would be in and around the Los Angeles area you would travel on the Interstate Highway 10? A. That’s correct.
Q. And that would be - -
A. And if you wanted to bypass New Orleans, you would get on I-12 - -
Q. Which is the fastest route - -
A. That’s right.
Q. That would put him - - According to these reports, he arrives here in Hemet, California, on the 15th of February of 1982. That would have him passing through St. Tammany Parish in the approximate time span within a week or so of the death of Roxanne Sharp, if you believe the people in Hemet saying the day he arrived out there was the 15th and you believe the people in Jacksonville saying the day he left was
Page 3070
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
the 9th or something of February.
Now, that case is another one of those socks-on cases?
Um-hum.
Q. Which seems to come up and has been mentioned as pattern with Henry Lucas.
Were you aware that - - Did you ever see any laboratory reports in that case? A. Yes, I’m sure I have.
Q. Okay.
A. I remember seeing the autopsy report.
Q. There was a sexual assault - -
A. Oh, yes.
Q. - - involved in the case? A. Um-hum.
Q. And here is one, I think it’s from the Jefferson Parish Sheriff’s office criminalistics laboratory? A. Yes.
Q. That was one apparently they didn’t lose, I guess, because they had a copy of it? A. Uh-huh.
Q. Is this document - - Did you ever try to verify if these results were correct or - -
A. No, I don’t recall ever seeing this document.
Page 3071
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. Okay.
A. I - -
Q. This is not one of the documents that you have said they couldn’t find is - - or said that, “We don’t have these hair samples”? The hair samples were in the Ruth Manguno case? A. Right. I don’t recall, sir, ever seeing this document, but it certainly appears to be correct and proper.
Q. Okay. And do you know the forensic people there, Carol Dixon and - - what is it, Ronald Singer? A. Ryan.
Q. Are they reputable people? A. Yes, sure.
Q. And they stated in that report that the microscopic comparisons of the pubic hair of the defendant Henry Lucas and the pubic hair found on a piece of three, you know, right there at the crime scene had the same similar characteristics as the defendant? A. Uh-huh.
Q. Of course, that’s really all you can do in hair analysis, as far as your understanding? A. That’s my understanding.
Q. I mean, you can’t - - hair isn’t like
Page 3072
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
fingerprints? A. That’s my understanding.
Q. But it is a positive piece of information? A. Sure.
Q. It does not exclude Henry Lucas from that category? A. No.
Q. It also, apparently - - I mean, the comparison was positive or as far as - - it came out, I think it said, that they found same that were dissimilar to Ottis Toole in that case. The other - -
A. We were told - - On that case, we were told - - I was told that samples of spermatozoa taken from Roxanne Sharp was matched with Ottis Toole, but - -
Q. Well, matched to the degree of, I guess, he is a type A secretor? A. Yeah.
Q. And what you had at your crime scene was type A secretor? A. Yeah.
Q. But we - -
A. But, see, that never made any sense to me, if that were true and I don’t recall ever seeing a report of that. Because this girl had seminal fluid in her mouth, in her anus and in her vagina, and I
Page 3073
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
think the lady - - the girl died as a result of seminal fluid. She chocked on seminal fluid.
So that would - - I mean, that would be more than one person. And, I don’t know. When you start mixing seminal fluids, I don’t know what you would expect to get.
Q. Yes. But - -
A. And I never saw a report saying that Toole’s that there was a match in the seminal fluid with Toole. I heard it verbally.
Q. Right. As far as the seminal match, I mean, I think you’re aware that like Henry Lucas is a type A nonsecretor.
A. Yes.
Q. So, in other words, when his is secreted in, I mean, it could be secreted with a nonsecretor who secretes with a secretor, all you’re going to get is the secretor’s result.
Like in our case here in El Paso, it’s kind of unusual, also. It’s a type A secretor is what we have. Of course, our theory all along, too, was that this case in El Paso is a multiple-defendant case, you know, with at least two people.
Right.
Q. Apparently your conclusion on Roxanne Sharp,
Page 3074
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
apparently you felt - - in your investigation felt that there was a couple of people involved? A. Through our investigation we felt that there were four people involved in the killing of Roxanne Sharp.
Q. Apparently no one was ever indicted in the Roxanne Sharp case. Is that correct? A. That’s correct.
Q. Your suspects in the Roxanne Sharp were not Henry Lucas, Ottis Toole, Becky Powell and Frankie Powell, which - -
A. That’s correct.
Q. - - which were the four that, I guess, St. Tammany Parish came up with. They came up with the same number of suspects, four, as you did, but you came up with four different people? A. Right.
Q. Do you recall who those people were? And if you don’t recall their names, that’s okay.
A. I recall two of them, and I - - One of them, the one I really recall and the one that - - is a guy by the name of Perry Taylor who is doing time in Angola now on manslaughter. And then there were three others, and I’m sorry, sir, I just can’t remember what their names were.
Page 3075
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. But apparently you never had enough evidence to go even to grand jury on them? A. That’s correct.
Q. They never confessed to the crime? A. That’s correct.
Q. They did have, according to your laboratory analysis from the - - Here is the only report I can see on that talking about the seminal fluid was on the black pants, some of that secretor activity, A, B, O, type A.
A. Yes.
Q. Did you ever have those four suspects in Louisiana checked to see if their seminal type was type A, type B, type O nonsecretor or secretor? A. No.
Q. Did you run into the problem that they would not consent to such a test or - -
A. Well, you know, this is - - the reason we felt that we knew who did that was the result of information off of the street. And the result, our knowledge of the girl, the dead girl - - Certainly whenever I say that we thought we knew who did it, that and 25 cents will get you on the street corner.
So, I mean, no one was ever arrested and no - - these four people that we suspected were never
Page 3076
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
tested.
Q. So in other words, they were suspects in the sense that apparently they were probably local guys that might have had a reputation? A. That knew her. She had a reputation as a prostitute and doing drugs and hanging with these people. And the FBI agent that gave us - - that felt like, based on the crime scene that it was someone that knew her very well that did it.
Now, whether those profiles are accurate or not, some people swear by them and some don’t. But - -
Q. They never gat introduced into court? A. They certainly do not.
Q. They never get before the juries? A. That’s correct.
Q. And I don’t - - I think they don’t really say, even the FBI doesn’t say those profiles should be entered as real evidence? A. No.
Q. They’re kind of an aid or an assistance or tools; sometimes they are really correct and sometimes they are way off base? A. That’s correct.
Q. As far as Roxanne Sharp, you know, she was a very transient type of person there in your county? Page 3077
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
She would hitchhike around. She would be known to go out with just about anybody or go with anybody. She wouldn’t be afraid, let’s say, to get a ride? A. No. I wouldn’t think so, no. You’re right.
Q. So in that sense, I mean, you know, a person like a Henry Lucas that would be traveling through, she wouldn’t be afraid to get in the car with him from what you knew? A. Well, from what I know of her reputation, I would believe that she probably would not.
Q. There is a deal - - There is some statement in here - - I think you may have checked that out, and I just wonder how you checked that out. It’s about the two Catholic priests that supposedly saw Henry Lucas and gave him and Ottis Toole $20 on the 9th of February there in Covington, Louisiana.
Did you ever have a chance to interview those people? A. No, I did not.
Q. To your knowledge, did anybody ever have a chance to interview them? A. Well, I think McGeehee and Larroque interviewed them. I didn’t put very much faith in that identification, frankly.
Q. Was there anything - - Well, usually - - And I
Page 3078
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Don’t know. I’m a Catholic. Maybe I’m biased. But, I mean, most times people put - - I mean, you know, a Catholic priest would come in and say, “Hey, I swear that’s the guy,” you know, you might put a little faith in it.
I’m Catholic, also, sir, but there were - -
Q. But like I said, that doesn’t mean they always tell the truth? A. The one that identified the man, if I recall correctly, was very elderly priest not active anymore, and he was going back, what, over two years? Q. A couple years.
A. I mean, I wasn’t impressed with that. And I never saw or spoke with that gentleman myself, but it was my understanding that he was a retired priest, elderly. I couldn’t even understand how he could remember anything like that.
Q. Do you remember if they had any documentation, you know, as to how they gave out money? It’s not unaccustomed for a priest to give out money to people who look like they are down on there luck, they haven’t got any money, passing through a county, they will sometimes help them out? A. That’s right. You know, I agree with that. But you have to know, again, where this - - you need
Page 3079
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
to know where this place is. This is not a big - - This is not the priest of the big Catholic church in downtown Covington. This is way out a road, you know - - Shoot, I’m not sure I could find it. This is like a monastery type thing out in the country.
Q. Okay. But you know of no photo lineups they were ever shown? A. I know of none.
Q. Do you know of any actual written statements from them? A. I have never seen them. I assume that they got a written statement. I don’t know if they did or not. I have never seen on if they did.
Q. And I think you were rather candid with the defense attorney when you said you didn’t have any, what you felt credible evidence that you could proceed on of Henry Lucas on your cases in those counties, but again you conceded to him that you’re not saying he didn’t commit those murders or at least some of them? A. No, I can’t say.
Q. I think you’re pretty certain in Wagner and Manguno. Those are - -
A. Yeah, I don’t believe he committed those.
Q. These two that I have just talked to you
Page 3080
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
about, Sharp and Fabia, would you agree those are a possibility that he could have committed those? A. Well, if - - See, what was explained to me, that Lucas was a traveling criminal and when they told me that they had a fingerprint in the Broyles case, I said, “Now, boys, you have got something.” And that matched they type of activity that I was led to believe that Lucas was involved in, that he was traveling constantly through the country and would commit crimes of opportunity.
Q. Yes.
A. The Fabia, I don’t know that that - - I really don’t know where that lady lived and I really don’t have much information.
Manguno was not a crime of opportunity. It wasn’t a happenstance, you see. Broyles would have been a happenstance to people on the road traveling, need money, see a motel.
Roxanne Sharp doesn’t make - - to me, didn’t fit the type profile I was told that Lucas was involved in with this traveling and all. Because you have got - - to get to where Roxanne Sharp was, you have got to get, gee, five or six, seven miles off the interstate, you know, to be there. And so it just didn’t fit with my understanding was of his
Page 3081
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
activities.
Q. All right.
A. And then - - Like our investigators, they - - he was - - there is no question, sir, that he was given favored treatment. The day our two people went to the jail in Texas, they were installing his cable television. His cable was being brought in, you know.
And I heard Sheriff Boutwell brag to a group of 400 law enforcement officers about how well Henry Lee Was being treated, you know. And he thought it was cute, in Dallas, in October or November of ’84.
Q. Okay. Let’s say in the Roxanne Sharp case, remember the part about her purse? That kind of an unusual happenstance there. There probably was a female involved in the case or at least at the scene, because apparently what had happened was she had had a - - I can’t remember now, a black purse or she had to have had some kind of purse.
Her - - The purse found at the scene, though, was not her purse, yet all the contents were in it. It was like some other female that was there had apparently just liked her purse, decided to take that but didn’t want to keep those contents of the purse, poured them into that purse and then left that other
Page 3082
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
purse at the crime scene.
If, let’s say, Henry Lucas had told you or Ed McGeehee, yes, he did commit that murder but that he took some of the items from the purse and that he had - - like some jewelry that was inside the purse and he had gone to a truck stop in St. Tammany Parish and he sold it to a lady there or a couple of ladies, and sure enough, you go back - - and he describes them to you, he describes the ladies, you go back to the truck stop and find ladies that match his description, talk to them and they then say, “Well, you’re right. I remember there was a guy in here. He sold us some jewelry and here is the jewelry,” and according to relatives of hers, it looks like - - I mean, it can’t be identified, you know, to the exclusion of all other turquoise jewelry in the world but looks like that of the victim, you have felt much more comfortable with a case like that where he leads you to something that you don’t know, you have no idea of it at all? A. Well, certainly you would if - - See, though, by the time - - I think as I said before, we weren’t - - they weren’t supplying us with the reports as we were requesting them. They were telling us verbally about these things and we would continually tell them to
Page 3083
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
give us the report on that. Nothing like that was in the original case report.
Q. Oh, I know that wasn’t - - I was giving you a hypothetical.
A. Yeah. Okay. But I think - -
Q. And if you then personally interviewed those ladies - -
A. No, I did not.
Q. No, I said if.
A. And by this time our faith in the sheriff’s office was kind at a very low ebb, and I can only assume that were correct because the current DA’s office, I’m sure, went all over all of that and they haven’t charged anyone, either.
But obviously, in a hypothet and as a prosecutor, sure, I would be interested in that, if it occurred.
MR. MOODY: Pass the witness.
MR. PONTON: We have no further questions.
THE COURT: May this gentleman be excused.
MR. PONTON: He may, Your Honor.
MR. MOODY: Yes, Your Honor.
THE COURT: We will take a brief recess.
(A recess was taken.) THE COURT: All right, young lady. Please
Page 3084
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
raise your right hand.
LINDA ERWIN,
Having been first duly sworn by the Court to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, was examined and testified as follows:
BY MR. PONTON:
Q. What is your name? A. Linda Erwin.
Q. How are you employed? A. As a police officer with the city of Dallas.
Q. What are your duties as a police officer? A. I’m an investigator assigned to the homicide unit.
Q. How long have you been a police officer? A. For 16 years.
Q. And how long have you been a homicide investigator? A. Almost ten years.
Q. Did the Dallas Police Department begin an investigation onto the possible involvement of Henry Lucas into unsolved homicides in Dallas, the city of Dallas? Page 3085
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Yes.
Q. When was that, Ms. Erwin? A. It was late in 1983.
Q. And why was that investigation begun? A. From information we had received from various sources that it was believed that Henry Lucas had been involved in murders in Texas and our department wanted to question him to see if he was involved in any murders in the city of Dallas.
Q. At the time that information came to this Dallas Police Department, was the DAllas Police Department aware that Henry Lucas had resided for a year and a half in Stoneburg, Texas, about 90 miles away? A. Yes.
Q. What steps, then, did the Dallas Police Department take to determine whether Henry Lucas had killed anybody in the city of Dallas, at least initially? What occurred? What discussions happened within the department and what were the initial steps taken? A. I was told as an investigator that I was going to be the person who talked with Henry Lucas. And I, in effect, met with him in probably June of 1984 for the first time, had a very brief
Page 3086
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
conversations with him at that time.
Q. Where did that conversation take place? A. In Georgetown.
Q. And did you meet with him in an interview room or at his jail cell? A. I believe it was an office in the sheriff’s department. It was not an interview room per se nor was it his cell.
Q. Did you have to make an appointment in advance to go speak with him? A. Yes, I did.
Q. You didn’t discuss any cases with him during that initial interview? A. No.
Q. What was the purpose of that initial interview? Had Mr. Lucas had any problems with Dallas officers in the past? A. I was told that he did not want to talk to Dallas police officers because he had already talked to Dallas officers and didn’t like the Dallas police and did not want to be involved in any further conversations with any members of the Dallas Police Department.
Q. To your knowledge, had he talked with any members of the Dallas Police Department at that time? Page 3087
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
No, he had not.
Q. When was the second meeting that you had with Henry Lucas? A. It was in the first part of July of 1984, about a month later.
Q. Had anybody else with the Dallas Police Department spoken with Henry Lucas about any cases between your first meeting and your second meeting? A. I’m sorry. I don’t understand.
Q. Had anybody else with the Dallas Police Department talked to Henry Lucas before your second meeting? A. No.
Q. What was the purpose of your second meeting with Lucas?> A. I had learned - - From the earlier conversation with him, he had told me he had, in fact, killed some people in the Dallas area. So the purpose of the second meeting was to learn specific information to see if there was any evidence that he had.
Q. How many people did he tell you at your first meeting that he killed in the Dallas area? A. I think the number was around 15 to 20, something like that.
Q. Do you have certain duties with the homicide
Page 3088
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
office to compile lists of unsolved homicides annually? A. Well, we have a list that is updated usually every year that contains certain information about unsolved cases and has - - we have had the list forever.
Q. Is it one of your duties to update that list annually? A. For awhile it was something I did.
Q. Were you doing that at the time you were interviewing Lucas? A. I had done some updating work on that unsolved murder list for two or three to four years previous.
Q. So at the time you were talking with Henry Lucas in July of ’84, were you pretty familiar with all the unsolved homicides in the city of Dallas? A. I was familiar with most of them.
Q. Please describe for the Court the way in which you proceeded to - -
LET me start with this. Before your second interview with Henry Lucas regarding the unsolved homicides, were you requested to provide any synopses or anything of that nature to the Texas Rangers who had Lucas? Page 3089
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
I don’t specifically recall ever having been requested to do that.
Q. Was it ever suggested to you that that was one of the ways in which the Texas Rangers were accommodating the interviewers who were interviewing Lucas? A. I knew that there were some agencies who did that.
Q. Who would provide crime synopses to the Texas Rangers for Lucas to review prior to interviews? A. Well, I knew that there were some agencies that provided crime synopses to the rangers.
Q. Okay.
A. Prior to interviews.
Q. Did you? A. No, I did not.
Q. Where did your second interview with Henry Lucas take place? A. At the Collin County jail in McKinney.
Q. Was he up there to try to see if he could clear up some unsolved Collin County cases? A. I believe he had been talked to by Collin County officials.
Q. Approximately how many cases did you compile to talk about with Henry Lucas?
Page 3090
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
I don’t know the exact number. Probably 12 to 15.
Q. Did you take any case files with you to - - when you interviewed Lucas? A. No, I didn’t.
Q. Did you take any photographs of the victims when you went to interview Lucas? A. I took some photographs including photographs of some of the victims of some of the unsolved cases.
Q. Did you take any maps or aerial photographs or crime scene photos, things like that? A. I took some photographs on one specific case.
Q. Other than that of the other 12 to 15, did you take that kind of information? A. No.
Q. Did you bring with you detailed synopses of these cases or did you just make notes on them or how did you handle that in preparation for your interview with Mr. Lucas? A. I made some noted in my own hand of pertinent information about some of the unsolved murders in the city of Dallas that I felt that there might be a possibility that he may have been involved in.
Page 3091
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. Please tell the Court the way that you conducted that interview with Henry Lucas, whether you would ask him about cases or you would tell him the details about cases. Just please tell the Court how you conducted that interview.
A. I was in the room with Henry Lucas along with two Texas Rangers. I introduced myself to him once again, told him that I was the one that had talked with him previously at Georgetown. I advised him of his rights and asked him if he would like to tell me about any offenses he may have committed in the city of Dallas.
Q. What did Mr. Lucas - - How did he respond to that? A. He started telling me about various things that he had done in the city giving vague and general information about crimes that he said that he had committed over several years.
Q. And was any of that information specific enough to be able to be tied to any particular location or particular crime? A. I didn’t feel that it was.
Q. Approximately how many homicides did Henry Lucas confess to you to having committed in Dallas when he was telling you what he had done in Dallas?
Page 3092
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
I don’t know the exact number. It was maybe 10, 12, maybe a little bit more. It was several.
Q. After Henry Lucas told you about those 10 or 12 murders he had committed in Dallas, did you then begin to ask him about his knowledge of some of the actual unsolved homicides you had with you? A. Yes, I did.
Q. And how did you do that? How did you conduct that questioning with Henry Lucas? A. I would ask him about a specific date as to month or time of year and a certain amount of information about the offense. And anything that he gave me was not specific with what I was dealing with.
Q. And would he try to tell you he was involved in those unsolved homicides that you were asking about? A. I don’t recall him trying to say that he was involved in the ones that I was questioning him about. Nothing that he said in response to my questions was I able to put with facts that were known to the police department.
Q. Did you share enough information with Henry Lucas regarding any of those unsolved homicides for him to be able to give an accurate crime description? A. No.
Page 3093
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. Did Henry Lucas give an accurate crime description to any of those unsolved homicides? A. No.
Q. Was that the end of that particular interview? A. Yes. These interviews took place over two or three days’ time period.
Q. Up in Collin County? A. That’s correct.
Q. At the conclusion of those interviews with Henry Lucas regarding the actual unsolved homicides in Dallas County - - or in the city of Dallas, did you do some followup work on what Lucas had told you both regarding his involvement in the 10 or 12 homicides he said he had committed? A. I could never get anything together.
Q. When you say you couldn’t get anything together, what do you mean? You mean you could never put Lucas together with the actual homicides or you couldn’t put Lucas together with the homicides he said he committed? If you could, differentiate between the two groups.
A. I could not put any of the information that he gave me about the known homicides together with
Page 3094
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Those cases to show me that he knew anything about them nor could I find any homicides unsolved in our city that matched up, if you will, with what he said he had done.
Q. What was your conclusion, then, after that followup regarding Henry Lucas’ involvement in homicides in the city of Dallas? A. I didn’t feel that he had committed any homicides in the city of Dallas.
Q. Did there come a time when you went back to interview Henry Lucas a third time? A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. And what was that request made to you at that time? A. That I formulate an idea about a case, an offense that had occurred, put a case folder together on something that had not occurred and I would talk to him about it again.
Q. And did you do that? A. Yes.
Q. And where did that interview take place? A. At the DPS headquarters in Garland.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. And approximately when did that interview take place? A. It was on the Thursday following the Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday that I had been talking with him in the Collin County jail.
Q. Okay. And please tell the Court the result of that interview with Henry Lucas regarding the case that never occurred?
A. I Told him that he had - - in the conversation of the day before when he had mentioned a specific area, having killed a woman there, that after having looked further at our files that we had located a case where a woman was killed in that area, and I asked him if he could give me any information about it, his involvement about it.
Q. And did he? A. Yes, he did.
Q. Did he give you some pretty specific information? A. He was specific to the extent that he told me that he went to the house, how he entered the house, how the offense occurred once inside, the items that was taken out of the house, how he committed the murder, they type of injuries he inflicted upon the body where he took the body.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. He had pretty specific details on all of those items, didn’t he? A. Yes.
Q. And as a result of that interview, what was your opinion then as to whether or not Henry Lucas had committed any homicides in the city of Dallas? A. I didn’t believe that he had committed any homicides in the city of Dallas.
Q. After that interview, what was your opinion as to the credibility of Henry Lucas as to confessing to homicides? A. My opinion was that he had not committed any murders in the city of Dallas.
Q. At the time that you were requested to initially interview Henry Lucas, was there a lot of publicity and a lot of maybe pressure to try to see if Lucas had committed any crimes in Dallas? A. Yes.
Q. And was that pressure coming from within the police department or was it coming from the news media or how did you perceive that at the time of your involvement? A. I think it probably was coming from several sources.
Q. And it was both information the media
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
and information within police sources that Lucas at that time in mid9’84 was confessing to committing hundreds of homicides around the country and particularly in Texas? A. Yes.
Q. And do you feel like that type of pressure had anything to do with the request that you be - - that you interview Henry Lucas regarding unsolved homicides in the city of Dallas? A. Well, I think my department felt that if he had committed numerous murders in the state of Texas and he was saying that he had, in fact, been through Dallas and had committed murders in Dallas, I think the police department felt that we should talk with him in an effort to determine if he had.
Q. Did you ever feel that there may have been an atmosphere of trying to get on the Lucas bandwagon, so to speak? A. My department wanted him to be interviewed and/or interrogated about any offenses that he may have committed in the city.
Q. Okay.
MR. PONTON: I pass the witness, Your Honor.
Page 3098
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
CROSS-EXAMNATION
BY MR. JEWKES:
Q. MS. Erwin, we haven’t met yet, but my name is Richard Jewkes. This is Carol Pennock. We are both assistant district attorneys here in El Paso.
What is your rank, ma’am? Are you a detective, a sergeant, or something other than - -
I’m an investigator in the homicide unit.
Q. Ma’am, with respect to your first interview with Henry Lucas, that would have been - - was that in July of 1984 or the latter part of June of 1984? A. It was in June 1984 I believe it was the first part, because I know that it was roughly a month before I spoke with him again in McKinney. So I think it was probably the first part of June.
Q. And that first interview was conducted in Georgetown? A. Yes.
Q. When you met with Henry Lucas, were you alone with him? A. No, I wasn’t.
Q. Someone else obviously was present? A. That’s correct.
Q. Do you recall who that was? A. Yes, I do.
Page 3099
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. Would you please tell the Court? A. It was two Texas Rangers.
Q. Do you recall the names of those rangers? A. Yes, I do.
Q. And would you tell us who they are? A. One of them was named Dee Vickers. The other one was named Clayton Smith.
Q. Dee Vickers, if I’m not mistaken, he is a ranger in your area. Is that correct? A. That’s correct.
Q. Prior to interviewing Henry Lucas that first time in the latter part of June, did either Dee Vickers or Clayton Smith try to instruct you how to interview Henry Lucas? A. No.
Q. Did they try to influence you in any manner as to how you should interview the defendant? A. No.
Q. Did they give you any suggestions as to how you should interview Henry Lucas? A. There were never any suggestions given to me as to how I should interview Henry Lucas.
Q. I take it, then, based on your testimony that you were allowed to handle your investigations as you saw fit?
Page 3100
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
That’s correct.
Q. And the Texas Rangers - - Pardon me. Let me back up.
Neither the Texas Rangers nor the Lucas task force tried to influence you in any manner? A. No.
Q. This next question is going to require you to give it quite a bit of thought. That first time you interviewed Henry Lucas, haw did he act around you? What was his demeanor when you started talking to him about various offenses? A. I didn’t talk with him about any specific offense that first meeting that I had with him. I was only there probably less than an hour.
The purpose for my meeting with him that first time was because of a problem he perceived or somebody perceived that he didn’t want to talk to the Dallas police because he had already done so and he didn’t like us. So that was my reason.
Nobody had, in fact, from our department ever talked with him and he obviously was confused. And the purpose for my going there and meeting him that first time was so that he would know that he had not talked with anybody with Dallas.
Q. Detective Erwin, were you - - Is it all right
Page 3101
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
to call you Detective Erwin? A. Sure.
Q. Because I know in Dallas you’re referred to as an investigator.
A. Right.
Q. But we have a little different situation around here.
A. I understand.
Q. Everybody is either a detective or whatever.
Detective Erwin, were you able to reconcile that problem with Henry Lucas? A. Yes.
Q. With respect to being previously interviewed? A. Yes.
Q. How were you able to reconcile that? A. Well, I think he knew that he had never talked with me before, and I told him that I didn’t know who he had talked with and gotten us confused with but that I could assure him that he had never talked with any representatives of the city of Dallas Police Department. And he seemed to go along with that.
Q. So in that essence you were able to establish that you were starting off with a fresh ball game, at least with respect to Henry Lucas and
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
the Dallas Police Department? A. That’s correct.
Q. Now, you have already testified that when you met with him the second time, that being in July of 1984, you had approximately 12 to 15 cases in mind that you wanted to interview him about. Is that correct? A. Yes.
Q. But you had no case folders? A. That’s correct.
Q. You had photographs of some of your crime victims? A. That’s correct.
Q. What additional information did you have with you, at least to jog your memory to help you during the interview process? A. Well, I told you - - I testified that I had taken some notes down from our case files concerning various unsolved homicides in the city of Dallas with respect to date, name, race, sex, age of victim, when the offense occurred, where it had occurred, the type place it had occurred in, what the cause of death was, whether or not there was anything obviously stolen at the time of the murder, whether or not there had been any sexual assault associated
Page 3103
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
With the murder. Just questions - - just things like that I had just noted down.
Q. All right. Now, during this second interview, Detective Erwin, did you ever show your handwritten notes to Henry Lucas? A. No, I did not.
Q. Did you ever read them to him? A. No.
Q. Did you spoon feed him? Did you give him any information? A. I didn’t give him any information about anything. He was the one that was giving the information.
Q. And during this second interview, was one or more rangers also present during that interview? A. Yes.
Q. The same rangers, Clayton Smith and Dee Vickers? A. That’s correct.
Q. Did they attempt to give Henry Lucas any information in your presence? A. Ranger Vickers on occasion would make a comment, but it was not - - it was not interrogatory in any way. It would just be something maybe to have him jog his memory or whatever. He basically was
Page 3104
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
just present.
Q. Okay. Detective Erwin, as a professional investigator which obviously you are with respect to the amount of years you have been assigned to the police department and the homicide division, in your estimation did Ranger Vickers do anything that would be improper, or, let’s say, in the form of bad investigative technique with respect to anything he said? A. Not in my presence.
Q. Now, during this second interview, how did Henry Lucas act in your presence? How did he react to you as a police officer? A. Let’s see now. Which interview are you referring to? Q. We are talking about the second interview where you had 12 to 15 cases.
A. Okay.
Q. And you had - -
A. At the Collin County jail? Q. Yes, ma’am.
A. Okay. And your question was how did he what, now? Q. Was he open with you? A. He was open. He was talkative.
Page 3105
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. Did he ever try to get any information from you? When I say, “he,” I mean the defendant. Did he ever try to, if you will go along with this, milk you for information? A. I never felt that he was. Now, he may have thought he was, but I - - I didn’t give him any specific information, any either/or’s, was it this way or that way? I just didn’t do that. He was the one that was providing the information.
Q. And I believe you testified that during that interview in the Collin County jailhouse that that was when Henry Lucas was giving you vague and somewhat general information concerning a number of offenses, a number of homicides? A. That’s right.
Q. Now, just a few more questions.
With respect to that third interview, that was the instance where you had - - What’s the word I’m looking - - You had put together a case? A. Right.
Q. We’ll call it a bogus case.
A. I think it’s been referred to as that.
Q. As a bogus case? A. Right.
Q. You did this to test the credibility of the
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
defendant in this case. Is that correct? A. Yes.
Q. That was under the - - at the insistence of one of your supervisors? A. That’s correct.
Q. Now, Detective, you have testified that Henry took it, Henry Lucas took that case. Is that correct? A. That’s correct.
Q. And he gave you information concerning that case? A. That’s correct.
Q. How did he get that information? A. He just started talking about how the offense had occurred.
My information on the murder, bogus murder was very vague. There was not a whole lot of information in the file per se. There was very few reports, very few supplemental investigative reports. There was not a whole lot of information there.
There was - - He was told that that there had, in fact, been a murder that had been committed in the general area that he had spoken about of a woman who was in her house. Now, all the other information he came up with he came up with himself as to how he got
Page 3107
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
In, what items were taken, how she died. He provided that information.
Q. Okay. Here is my question. This bogus case, was it based partly in fact when you formulated it? In other words, had there been a homicide involving that particular victim? A. No.
Q. No. So we had a bogus victim, a bogus homicide. There had been no such homicide under the types of circumstances that you put into the case. Is that correct? A. That’s correct.
Q. How did you start off your interview with Henry Lucas in regards to that particular case? A. On the previous day, the rangers that were there wanted to drive around the city and I agreed to do that. I felt at that point in time that it would probably be a waste of time, but I agreed to do it.
They knew of specific cases - - And I may be rambling, but I’m trying to explain, okay? Q. Sure.
They knew of specific cases that had occurred in the city of Dallas over the years and they knew enough about those cases from being law enforcement officers that I think probably they had
Page 3108
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Questioned him about those cases in the past. I myself even questioned him about some of the ones. It was kind of a joint effort. But he never really told me enough about any of it to make me think that he knew anything about them other that what he may have heard, read or been told.
In any event, on that Wednesday we were driving around the city, various locations around the interstates that encircle the city and he wanted to go off - - sort of directed us off the interstate highway on a road. We sort of drove down in a wooded area, kind of an isolated area of the city, in the southeast part of the city.
As we were driving along, he just pointed out an area and he said, “I” - - “I had” - - he said that he killed a woman down in that area before, that he took her out of her house.
Well, that was all that was really said about that. So that area is what I formulated the information on the next day.
Q. So based on what Henry Lucas had told you the day before, you formulated a case based partly on what he told you. In other words, it was - -
A. With respect to the location.
Q. And the circumstances?
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
And the woman. And the fact that there was a woman in a house.
Q. And the fact that there was an abduction? A. Well, I don’t recall immediately if it was with respect to any abduction, but he said that he had killed a woman in a house in that area.
Q. Okay. So you formulate the case and you meet with him the next day. Is that correct? A. Yes.
Q. And as briefly as possible, would you explain to us what happened the next day regarding that case? A. I told Dee Vickers that we had gone through some files and had come up with a case that I didn’t know - - I wasn’t sure if it might have been the one that he was referring to the previous day, but we would like to talk to him about it. And so he agreed that I could talk with him the next day up in Garland. So I went out there and asked him if he could tell me more about the woman that he had made reference to the previous day, and so he started providing details about when he remembered that it happened like the time of the year and such as that how he got into the house, where the victim was, those type details.
Page 3110
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. Okay. Now, Detective, had you made those details available to anybody? A. No.
Q. We were talking about the bogus details? A. Yes.
Q. And Henry Lucas then starts to give you very specific information or, if you will, very specific details concerning this imaginary homicide? A. They were details.
Q. Now was he able to do that? Was he just dreaming it up? A. I assume he was making up as he went along. I don’t know.
Q. During - - In all, you had three interviews with Henry Lucas. Is that correct? A. Well, I had the interview with him in June.
Q. Okay.
A. I had the interview with him Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday in July.
Q. I guess we could call it two sessions, then? A. Two sessions.
Q. Okay. With respect to these two sessions, did the task force in any way ever attempt to influence you and try to direct you as to how you should conduct your investigation? Page 3111
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
I believe I sort of laid down the ground rules initially as to how I was going to conduct the interviews and interrogations, and no one ever told me that it wasn’t going to be that way. So - -
Q. In other words, they did not interfere with you in any manner? A. No, they didn’t.
Q. By the same token, did any member of the task force or the Department of Public Safety or the Texas Rangers ever try to intimidate you in any manner? A. No, they didn’t.
MR. JEWKES: I pass the witness, Your Honor.
BY MR. PONTON: Q. Henry Lucas did confess to other agencies to committing Dallas area crimes, did he not? A. I believe he did.
Q. And were these to some of the smaller jurisdictions around Dallas County in comparison to the Dallas Police Department? A. I would say yes.
Q. The Dallas Police Department - - Does the Dallas Police Department ever call upon the Texas
Page 3112
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
rangers to assist them in investigations? A. I personally never have. There may be occasions where there is some interaction between our agency and the Texas Rangers, but I can’t think of any specific instances when we have called upon them for their assistance, if that’s what you’re asking.
Q. Yes. The agencies that accepted the Lucas confessions in the Dallas area, would these be agencies that for the most part would have more interaction with the Texas Rangers than the Dallas Police Department would? A. Possibly. Now, I don’t know if any of these agencies accepted his statements that I believe he tried to give them.
Q. Yes. Statements? A. That’s correct.
Q. That he was involved in homicides within their jurisdictions? A. Right.
Q. Do you know if any of those homicides were cleared based upon his confessions? Did you ever hear that?
A. No, I don’t know.
Q. At the time that you were interviewing Henry Lucas in the summer of 1984, did the Texas Rangers
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
provide you or your department with any specific information regarding Henry Lucas’ actual whereabouts during the eight years he was free from prison? A. Periodically we got written material from the task force that would list places that he had been, work records and such as that.
Q. Was this what is - - what I referred to as the DPS time log or like a chronological list of alleged Lucas offenses interspersed with some alleged locations where he lived? A. Yes.
Q. Does that sound like what you read? A. That sounds like what you’re talking about.
Q. Did not that time log consist more of alleged offenses where - - or alleged locations where Lucas had committed offenses and less of actual places where he had lived? Do you recall that? A. Probably.
Q. DO you recall the Texas Rangers giving you any specific information on where they were aware Lucas had lived during the time period of any of the specific offenses you were going to question him about? A. No. I didn’t - - I didn’t go to them for information or that sort.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. For instance, when you went back to give - - ask Lucas about the bogus case, were the rangers aware of that date of that offense? A. I don’t believe they were.
MR. PONTON: Pass the witness.
MR. JEWKES: No questions.
THE COURT: Mr. Ponton, approach the bench. Do you-all have any more questions for this lady? MR. PONTON: No, sir.
MR. JEWKES: The state doesn’t.
THE COURT: Who is going to be your next witness? MR. PONTON: Clemmie Schroeder. And she will be a long witness, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Well, we are not going to take her up until 1:30. Okay. That will give me a few minutes to get some things done.
(An off-the-record discussion was held.)
THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, we are going to be in recess until 1:30.
(A lunch recess was taken.)
THE COURT: Young lady, your right hand.
Thank you.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Editor's note: this is the official transcript and it runs verbatim, as the archive's rule for court records requires; nothing has been summarised or cut. The transcript as it survives in the magazine’s files skips from page 2831 to page 3034 and from 2735 to 2773; those pages were not among the sections transcribed and their absence is the record’s, not an edit. This archive records Henry Lee Lucas with eleven convictions, around three of them regarded as credible, against some six hundred confessions; the questioning in these pages is part of the mechanism by which that gap opened. It belongs to the El Paso County case and the 120th Judicial District, not to the Clay County trial already published as TRANSCRIPTS FROM THE TRIAL OF HENRY LEE LUCAS. Nothing said under oath in a transcript is a finding of fact, and Lucas in particular said a great many things that were not true.