By Christi Punteney
The El Paso County hearing continues, transcribed from the official record: the grand jury testimony of Mike Feary, Bart Dalton, Robert H. Collision, Hugh Aynesworth, James Lang, Robert Conatser, Fran Dixon and Richard G. Mobley, with a statement of facts. It runs verbatim. Pages 2426 to 2735.
Thing.
Bill, I can have Mr. Lemons personally identify most of the documents in that box, if you want me to, for purposes of admitting them for purposes of this hearing.
MR. MOODY: Why don’t you just have him take them back in there and have him check off the ones that he has personal knowledge of.
MR. PONTON: If you could do that, take these back with you and just put a little initial underneath the exhibit tag on each one that you have personal knowledge about.
THE COURT: Why don’t we do this. Take this red pen and make a little red checkmark on it. That way we’ll know that - - or put your initial on it in red, if you could do that for me.
(An off-the-record discussion was held.)
THE COURT: Please have a seat in the witness chair.
Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Would you please raise your right hand?
Have a seat, please.
MICHAEL FEARY,
Page 2426
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
having been first duly sworn by the Court to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, was examined and testified as follows:
BY MR. PONTON:
Q. Would you please state your name?
A. Michael Feary.
Q. How are you employed?
A. I am a criminal investigator for the state attorney general’s office.
Q. And the attorney for the attorney general is aware of your testifying here today, is he not?
A. My supervisors are. I do not know how far up the line that has gone.
Q. But in regard to a previously filed motion to quash subpoenas, they have decided not to contest it as far as your appearance goes. Is that correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. How long have you been an investigator with the attorney general’s office?
A. Since March of 1984.
Q. How long have you been in law enforcement?
A. I began my law enforcement career in 1969. I was out of the field for approximately two years.
Page 2427
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Other than that, I have been continuously involved in law enforcement.
Q. What are your duties with the attorney general’s office?
A. I’m assigned to the prosecutor assistance section. We respond primarily to calls from prosecutors around the state for assistance from the attorney general’s office.
MR. MOODY: Excuse me, Mr. Ponton. May we approach the bench?
(An off-the-record discussion was held.)
THE COURT: Let me do this. We will break. I’m sorry, Mr. Feary. We are going to break at this time. We will begin again at 1:30.
(A lunch recess was taken.)
THE COURT: You’re Mr. Michael Feary?
THE WITNESS: Feary, yes sir.
THE COURT: You have been sworn?
A. Yes, sir, I have.
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) Before we broke for lunch, Mr. Feary, you were explaining that you’re a criminal investigator for the attorney general’s office of the State of Texas.
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. How long have you been there?
Page 2428
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Since March of ’84.
Q. Did you have occasion to get involved in an investigation involving Henry Lee Lucas?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. When was that?
A. The investigation, to the best of my recollection, began probably in March of ’85.
Q. And why was the attorney general of Texas in his office investigating activities of Henry Lee Lucas?
A. The office had been previously contacted by Mr. Aynesworth, and also I had been previously contacted by an assistant district attorney from McLennan County with Lucas’ confessions to crimes committed in that jurisdiction. And the McLennan County District Attorney’s office asked for assistance in investigating whether or not those specific confessions were invalid and in determining how Lucas was coming to the point of being able to confess to crimes that he may not have committed.
Q. Now, to clarify things a little bit, your office is the prosecutor’s assistance division of the attorney general’s office. Isn’t that correct?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Page 2429
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. You-all provide assistance to local prosecutors when they need assistance and request it. Is that correct?
A. Yes, sir, it is.
Q. And you-all act to investigate crimes and to prosecute crimes when the local prosecutor either can’t do it because it’s too big of a case for him or because there is a conflict or something. Is that correct?
A. Yes, sir, it is.
Q. And, also, does your office ever engage in investigations taken at the request of local grand juries or local judges and things of that nature?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. And if requested by local grand juries or judges or prosecutors, would your office undertake investigations into criminal activity or things of - - or any allegations of improper conduct, things of that nature?
A. Yes, sir, we do.
Q. That’s the duty that your office is charged with. Is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. So you were getting involved in the - - your office was getting involved in the Lucas matter
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
because of the request from the McLennan County District Attorney’s office?
That’s correct.
Q. And tell the Court a little bit about how that started and what you-all did at the beginning of that investigation.
A. A request, as I stated, was originally made by an assistant district attorney, and I then returned to Austin, conveyed the information that there were problems with those particular confessions to my then division chief, Joe Hindley, and explained to him that the district attorney’s office in McLennan County was requesting our assistance.
I went on to continue investigations other than this that I was involved in, and subsequently there was a meeting that was attended by my division chief, it would be representatives from the district attorney’s office in McLennan County and the attorney general.
Q. And at that meeting were certain documents presented to you-all and certain representations made to you-all on the fact that Henry Lee Lucas’ actual whereabouts could be documented, yet the Texas Ranger task force had participated in accepting hundreds of confessions by Henry Lucas during that time frame?
Page 2431
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
There were a few documents and quite lengthy discussions about where Lucas’ - - where Lucas was located at the time that these other crimes were allegedly committed, yes, sir.
Q. And based upon that meeting, did your office provide further assistance to the McLennan County District Attorney’s office in their investigation of whether or not Henry Lucas could have committed the crimes there in Waco?
A. Yes, sir, that is correct.
Q. And did you-all provide investigative assistance to the McLennan County Grand Jury in that regard?
A. Yes, sir, we did.
Q. And please tell the Court a little bit about the kind of investigations your office did and the kind of documentation your office put together and the kind of conclusions you came to on where Henry Lucas had actually lived during the period from 1975 to 1983.
A. Sir, it was determined that the focus of our investigation would be on exactly that, determining where Lucas was primarily after he was released from the Michigan penitentiary in 1975 until the time that he was arrested in Montaque County in 1983.
Page 2432
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
We knew fairly well that he had gone to Maryland after being released from the penitentiary and began most of our investigation there. We traveled to Maryland in an effort to speak with friends and acquaintances and relatives of Lucas or his family to determine if, in fact, he was there for any substantial length of time and to determine what those dates were.
In addition to traveling to Maryland, I traveled to Florida and met with acquaintances of both Lucas and Ottis Toole, met with relatives of Ottis Toole and tried to determine what dates Lucas was in Florida.
An investigator, who has since passed away, traveled to California in an effort to do the same thing there and also traveled to Montaque County and began an investigation there. Ultimately I also traveled to Montaque County to determine what dates Lucas was in that particular area.
Q. And in regard to Montaque County, were you able to determine the dates that Henry Lucas lived there in Montaque County, Texas?
A. Yes, sir. Essentially we determined that Lucas left California, the Smart’s residence in, I believe, the summer of 1982, traveled to Montaque
Page 2433
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
County to reside with Mrs. Kate Rich. He was requested to leave there. He and Frieda Powell, whom he referred to as Becky, traveled together from California.
They left the Rich residence and spent the majority of the time until Frieda Powell disappeared, with Rueben Moore. Then Lucas again returned to the House of Prayer that was operated by Rueben Moore and stayed there most of the time until, I believe, he was arrested in November of ’82.
He did some traveling - - And I don’t have the exact dates in front of me. That has been documented - - and returned to Montaque County and remained there until he left, I believe, on June the 4th, 1983, which was reported to the Texas Rangers, Phil Ryan and the sheriff there, and then ultimately was returned to Montaque County after his car broke down in New Mexico by Rueben and Faye Moore.
Q. And then he was - - And that would have been on June 9th and 10th of 1983 when he returned to Montaque County with Ruben and Faye?
A. That’s correct.
Q. He would have been arrested on June 11th by Sheriff Conway and Texas Ranger Phil Ryan?
A. Yes, sir.
Page 2434
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. Now, the investigation that you undertook in Montaque County, did it ever uncover any information whatsoever that Henry Lucas left Montaque County in late May of 1983?
A. No, sir, it did not.
Q. Did the information that you uncovered through your investigation in Montaque County, did it indicate that Henry Lucas remained in Montaque County continuously all through the month of May of 1983 and did not leave there overnight until June 4th, 1983?
A. Yes, sir, it did indicate that.
Q. And you did a thorough investigation of his whereabouts up there, did you not?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. Were you assigned in that investigation by anyone?
A. No, sir. At that time I was operating alone.
Q. And did you speak with Rueben Moore?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you speak with Faye Moore?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. Did you speak to other persons who saw Henry Lucas in Montaque County at that time?
A. Yes, sir. I spoke extensively with Ranger Phil Ryan. I spoke briefly with former Sheriff
Page 2435
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Conway, and I spoke also with another reverend, whose name I don’t recall at the moment, who had been at the House of Prayer and involved in an accident on the highway, I believe, in late May of 1983.
Q. And what did that reverend tell you about his observation of Henry Lucas in late May of 1983?
A. He recalls Lucas being at what they call a camp meeting. Again, I don’t have the dates in front of me.
As the reverend - - I believe it was Jess Murphy - - left the House of Prayer, he was struck by another vehicle. Murphy was hospitalized and when he got out of the hospital, he requested that Rueben Moore bring the damaged car back to his house, which I believe is in - - I don’t recall right off whether it was - - I believe it was in Bowie, Texas.
Reverend Murphy stated that it was approximately a week or so after the accident occurred that Rueben Moore and Henry Lucas brought the car to his house. He recalled that event by the fact that Rueben pulled it - - Rueben Moore pulled the damaged vehicle with a pickup truck, either with a chain or rope but in the vehicle behind the pickup and that Lucas had complained that the vehicle was difficult
Page 2436
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
to steer and stop with the engine not running.
Q. Now, the day that that vehicle that belonged to Jess Murphy was towed by Henry Lucas and Rueben Moore, can you place that day in an area of the end of the month? Was it near the Friday, May 27th, of 1983, before that day, after that day?
A. Reverend Murphy’s statement to me would indicate that it was approximately that date.
Q. And that would have been a day that Henry Lucas would have been observed in Montaque County by Reverend Jess Murphy and Rueben Moore. Is that correct?
A. That is correct, yes, sir.
Q. And you talked to people who attended the camp meeting at Montaque County?
A. No one other than Reverend Murphy and his wife and the Moores.
Q. Did they all state that Henry Lucas was present continuously at that camp meeting?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And didn’t that camp meeting go from about the 10th of May until about the 20th of May?
A. I believe that is correct. I don’t have the exact dates on that. I believe that there is reference made to those dates, but I recall it as
Page 2437
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
being accurate, yes, sir.
Q. Did you do as thorough an investigation as you could to determine the location of Henry Lee Lucas in Montaque County and whether or not he was there and whatever documents or oral reports you could get to confirm his presence there?
A. Yes, sir, I did. I would not rule out the possibility that there are other individuals in Montaque County who also have information that we don’t know about or that I was not aware of.
I did contact a superintendent of the Goldburg School who recalled that Lucas had been working on a roofing job for the school and that because Sheriff Conway suspected Lucas of committing the murder of Kate Rich, that the superintendent felt it inappropriate for Lucas to be on school grounds with school children there.
Mr. - - the superintendent, I don’t recall his name right off - - either did furnish a copy of a bill to me that represented the work done on the school by Reverend Moore’s roofing company.
The same thing, the date, right off the top of my head, that although Lucas was not asked to leave the job, Mrs. Strout recalls Lucas’ presence on that roofing job, and I believe that was probably
Page 2438
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
prior to this particular day, however.
Q. Based upon all your investigation in Montaque County, based upon your interviews with everybody you could find up there that knew and observed Henry Lucas up there, are you satisfied that Henry Lucas was present in Montaque County, Tex, on May 27th, 1983?
A. Yes, sir, I am. I believe that Lucas was being watched not only by law enforcement but Rueben Moore at that particular time. Rueben Moore expressed a certain amount of concern to me over Lucas. He was personally watching Lucas carefully and could document the dates recall the exact dates that Lucas left the Montaque County area.
Q. And that day was what?
A. June 4th, 1983.
Q. And Rueben Moore, did he tell you he was certain that Henry Lucas stayed there continuously until that time except for maybe a brief trip that was just a matter of a few hours?
A. Yes, sir, that is correct. Moore recalled other roofing jobs that Lucas was on wherein he may have left the county but was still in Rueben Moore’s presence. I believe there was a motel or an apartment complex that was reroofed in Oklahoma.
Page 2439
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Again, however, Rueben Moore was there with the rest of his crew.
Q. Which included Henry Lucas?
A. That is correct.
Q. And that would have been right around this time at the end of May of 1983?
A. I believe it would have been earlier. It was a little easier than that.
Q. Now, you also talked with Phil Ryan, the Texas Ranger, and Sheriff Conway. And did you talk with the district attorney’s investigator, Paul Smith?
A. No, sir. There was a trial ongoing in another county that is part of that district while I was up there and I was unable to discuss this situation with Mr. Smith. Glen Cardon did earlier report to me prior to his death that he had - - previously had spoken with Paul Smith, however.
Q. What was it that was related to him by Paul Smith?
A. Well, because of Lucas’ status as a suspect in the disappearance of Kate Rich as well as the disappearance of Fried Powell, Lucas was being monitored fairly closely by law enforcement officers in that area. They were concerned that if he left, they may never see him again. They didn’t feel that
Page 2440
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
at that time they had sufficient evidence to arrest him on any of those cases, but they did feel that he had something to do with them.
Q. And based upon your conversations with Glen Cardon and based upon your conversations with Phil Ryan and W. F. Conway, are you satisfied that they had some personal contact with Henry Lucas during the period of time around May 27th, of 1983, at least a visual contact?
A. Yes, sir, I am. A certain amount of that contact, according to Ranger Ryan, was documented by himself. Sheriff Conway stated that he did not keep accurate records of every time he contacted Lucas, was not as - - did not recall specific dates that he may have seen Lucas.
Ranger Ryan stated that in addition to the dates that he had written down, that he felt sure that he had seen Lucas on other dates in a more informal setting where he did not particularly go up to Lucas and discuss anything with him but that he had driven by and noticed him in the area.
Q. Was there anyone that you ever spoke to in Montaque County who knew Henry Lucas who said they observed him leave there long enough in late May of 1983 to drive to El Paso County, Texas, and return to
Page 2441
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Montaque County?
No, sir.
Q. Now, back when you were working with the - - aiding the McLennan County Grand Jury in Waco, please tell the Court some of the facts that were uncovered during the investigation that you-all were involved in with that grand jury regarding Lucas’ whereabouts.
A. In that regard, do you mean the facts that establishes presence in a particular location?
Q. Yes.
Q. Okay. We interviewed extensively, both in Maryland and Florida and were, to my satisfaction, fairly able to document that Lucas did not leave those areas as his confessions would indicate.
After his release from the Michigan state penitentiary, he stayed in the northeastern Maryland/southern Pennsylvania area for approximately - - well, until the summer of 1977. I believe that relatives and acquaintances recall him leaving the area on two short trips, maybe three, to visit relatives or to, in one case, take a lady that lived in the same trailer park as Lucas did back to Rhode Island where her family was. But that was probably a 24-hour trip, to the recollection of those individuals that we talked to.
Page 2442
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
He returned to - - after those trips returned back to the trailer park that he was living in with his wife, Betty Crawford.
In the summer of - -
Q. Is that the wife who told you that he was with - - she - - that he was within her presence every night of of their marriage from the end of ’75 until the summer of ’77 except for one night or two nights?
A. Yes, sir. I believe it was two nights that she specifically recalled, one of them being this trip to Rhode Island and the other one to visit a relative, I believe that last name was Waugh, W A U G H.
Q. Now - - And then where did your investigation uncover that Lucas lived after ’77?
A. Well, he made the trip to Texas, Hurst, Texas, with his wife and a family named Plaski. I personally was not able to speak with Mrs. Plaski. It’s my understanding that Mr. Plaski was dead when I went up there.
Videotapes that I have observed indicate that Mrs. Plaski stated that, as did Betty Crawford, that the two families left Maryland, came towards Hurst, Texas. I believe that they all came to Texas to where Betty Crawford’s mother was living at the
Page 2443
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Time. They returned back to Maryland. However, the Plaskis were dropped off in Illinois.
Lucas and Mrs. Crawford separated shortly after that time, and Lucas again lived with relatives for awhile. And there is a period in 1977 for which I was unable to discover any information at all. I believe Almeda Kiser, who is a half-sister of Mr. Lucas, is aware of a short period in 1977 where she just simply does not recall where he was.
Q. Well, to try to capsulize some of this stuff and not go into every one of the 2, 862 days that he was free, to put together all the material that you gathered during that investigation, did you help participate in the preparation of what is known as the Mattox report?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. Do you have a copy of that with you?
A. No, I do not.
(Defendant’s exhibit marked, D-30.)
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) I’m going to show you what I will later tender as exhibit - - Defendant’s Exhibit 30. This is the district attorney’s copy, but you have provided me another copy that I have here in my office. Is that correct?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Page 2444
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. This is the Lucas report prepared by you and the attorney general’s office of the state of Texas. Is that correct?
A. Yes, sir, that is correct.
Q. And that report synopsizes the investigation that you did into the actual whereabouts of Henry Lucas from the period of 1975 to 1983. Is that correct?
A. Yes, sir, it is.
Q. And during that period of time, as you testified, from ’75 to 77, he was up in Maryland and Pennsylvania. Thereafter, he lived in Delaware for a period of time. Thereafter, he lived in Florida for a period of time, a trip to California, and then he ended up in Montaque, Texas.
Would that be a rough summary of where he lived during that eight-year period of time?
Yes, sir, it would.
Q. Now, and that’s all detailed in the Mattox report, isn’t it?
A. Yes, sir, it is.
Q. And in that Mattox report it refers to exhibits that you have put together to document Mr. Lucas’ whereabouts?
A. Yes, sir, that is correct.
Page 2445
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. And the Mattox report, let me read you a couple of things here from it. The - - Was there a conclusion by your boss, Jim Mattox, that it was likely that Henry Lucas had not committed more than three murders?
A. Yes, sir, there was.
Q. And was it the - - your conclusion and the conclusion of that report that Henry Lucas had confesses to many, many, many murders that it was impossible for him to have committed?
A. Yes, sir, that conclusion was reached.
Q. During that period of time from 1975 to 1983, Henry Lucas confessed to numerous murders to the Texas Rangers and to individual law enforcement officers. Is that correct? A. Yes, sir, it is.
Q. And as a matter of fact, what I’ll show you is the - - what I will refer to as the Texas Ranger task force new synopsis, and that is a list of 231 victims that Henry Lucas confessed to killing. Do you recognize that document?
A. Yes, sir, I do.
Q. And out of those 231 murders, let me ask you this. You have read that, haven’t you?
A. Yes, sir, I have.
Page 2446
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. And every one of those 231 murders was initially listed as cleared by - - based upon the confession of Henry Lee Lucas, was it not?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. That clearing - -
A. Let me explain one thing. There are two cases, I believe, that were nonhomicides that are listed in the synopsis.
Q. They are incidents?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Okay. So there were 229 homicides listed as cleared in that synopsis?
A. Yes, sir, I believe that’s correct.
Q. And then of those 229, some were cleared by Texas Rangers, some were cleared by Texas Rangers and local law enforcement agents, and the majority would have been cleared by the local law enforcement agents themselves. Would that be a fair - - Would that be correct?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. And of those 229 murders that the Texas Rangers document lists as cleared by Henry Lee Lucas, how many of those murders did you investigation determine that Henry Lucas could have committed based upon the documents you have got on where he actually
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Lived during that period of time?
I don’t believe that we pulled out that exact data to determine how many could have conceivably been. I believe some of that is subjective in that specific dates for some of the homicides simply are not available and that they are unidentified skeletal remains where it is impossible to say that date the individual died, and therefore, you can’t establish whether or not Lucas was in the area at that particular time or not.
There are some that Lucas’ whereabouts can generally be established, either by testimony or documents that would indicate where we was a month or a few weeks earlier or later than that, but not on a specific date. If you’re looking for direct date contradictions, there is a good many that don’t exist. However, if you combine the information from interviews with the limited documentation that is available, it indicates to me and to the other people that I have worked with in this that Lucas was generally in those areas and not at the scenes of these crimes.
Q. So based upon the documentation you were able to gather and based upon the interviews with family members and bosses and co-workers of Henry
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Lucas, were you able to determine how many of those 229 that it’s - - would it be fair to say that probably at least 200 of those 229 could be excluded as having been committed by Henry Lucas based upon the documents and interviews you;ve conducted?
Yes, sir, I would say that’s probably correct.
Q. Okay.
A. My recollection is, other than the death of Viola Lucas, his mother, outside information that strongly indicates Lucas being present has been available in two other cases.
Q. And would those be the murders of Kate Rich and Frieda Powell in Denton County and Montaque County, Texas?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And all of the other 226 homicides that are listed as cleared by the Texas Rangers, how many bodies did Henry Lucas lead people to or how many homicides did he bring forward evidence of that was unknown to the investigating officers prior to their involvement with Henry Lucas? A. It’s my understanding that there are no other cases that Lucas led investigators to previously undiscovered remains and previously
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Undiscovered evidence.
Q. All right. And would it be your testimony - - would it be fair that your investigation of Henry Lucas’ whereabouts, in interviews with family members, et cetera, were able to clear him of all the cases he confessed to except for his mother, Kate Rich, Frieda Powell and certain unidentified remains whose exact date of death or date of disappearance couldn’t be identified? Were you-all able to clear him on almost every other homicide that had a specific date of death or disappearance?
A. I think the evidence indicates that Lucas was elsewhere in the majority of those cases. Like I say, we didn’t pull out exact numbers, again, because a lot of it was subjective on how close you need a particular date, a documented date. But the overall indication of this evidence taken as a whole puts Lucas elsewhere than at the scene of the crimes.
Q. Now, I’m going to - -
MR. PONTON: May I approach the witness, Your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes, sir.
(Defendant’s exhibits marked, D-26, D-36A, through D26-YY.)
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) Now, I have a document here
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Which has been tendered but not yet admitted which is known as Defendant’s Exhibit 26-A, and this is a synopsis of 186 murders that are listed as cleared by the Texas Rangers here in their synopsis. And on each one of these dates that he confessed to killing somebody, I have alibi information which basically comes from the material that you generated, Mr. Feary, through your investigation.
Would you agree that to come up with 186 confessions that can be contradicted by documents is close to the number that you came up with in your own independent investigation?
Yes, sir.
Q. Now, the McLennan County Grand Jury investigated Henry Lucas’ involvement in the deaths of - - was it three persons in McLennan County?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. Henry Lucas confessed to those three cases, did he not?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What were those victim’s names?
A. One victim was Glen Parks, who was a somewhat elderly male individual living in Bellmead. There was Dorothy Collins, who has been identified to me as a prostitute in McLennan County. And then Rita
Page 2451
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Salazar.
Q. And who took the initial confessions on those cases from Henry Lucas?
A. The Glen Parks case was - - the confession to that was taken by the Bellmead chief of police, Scooter Ratcliff.
The Dorothy Collins case was, I believe the confession was given to a lieutenant with the sheriff’s office. I don’t recall his name right now.
And I do not know to whom the confession to Rita Salazar was tendered.
Q. At the time of those confessions by Henry Lucas, do you know where he was - -
A. Well, the - -
Q. - - when he confessed to those?
A. Well, the Glen Parks case, to my recollection without refreshing, it was 1978. And the - -
Q. No, I mean, where Lucas physically was at the time he gave the confessions. Was he in Georgetown?
A. The confession to the Glen Parks murder was given, I believe, at the Bellmead Police Department. The other two were kind of - - I would refer to as progressive confessions in that Lucas was interviewed
Page 2452
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
By more than one individual and later gave a more detailed confession to - - to a second officer. I believe that the confession that was given concerning Ms. Collins was given at the Georgetown headquarters for the task force.
Q. And when you talk about the headquarters for the task force, was this the Henry Lee Lucas Task Force that was organized and run by the Texas Rangers?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. And the task force included Jim Boutwell, the sheriff of Williamson County; Sergeant Bobby Prince of the Texas Rangers and Clayton Smith of the Texas Rangers. Is that correct?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct, And at one time I believe assistant chief of law enforcement, Bob Warner, was also assigned to that task force.
Q. At a time after certain criticisms began to appear in the press that perhaps Henry Lucas was confessing to murders he couldn’t have committed?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. Now, at the time Henry Lucas confessed to those three murders, then he was in the custody of the Texas Rangers and Jim Boutwell there in Georgetown?
A. Yes, sir.
Page 2453
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. But in one of those instances he had been taken up to Bellmead?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. Would he have been taken up there by the Texas Rangers?
A. Yes, sir, he was.
Q. Do you know which ones?
A. No, sir, I really do not?
Q. Now, the second two victims, you said Henry Lucas gave progressive confessions to those murders. Is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And that was where Henry Lucas would give a sketchy confession at first and then progressively add more details to the confession the more times he would be interviewed?
A. Yes, sir. Either that or after the initial interview it would either be determined or her would deny involvement, as in the case of Ms. Collins. I believe that a retired Lieutenant Gilbreth with the McLennan County Sheriff’s office had interviewed Lucas in Georgetown, according to Gilbreth’s statement, and it was Gilbreth’s determination that Lucas was not involved and I do not believe that Lucas provided a detailed confession to that
Page 2454
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Particular crime at the time.
Later on he was reinterviewed by an officer who did not know that Lieutenant Gilbreth had traveled to Georgetown and previously interviewed Lucas, and it was to this second investigator that the confession was given.
Q. Now, the - - was Henry Lucas ever charged with those three crimes?
A. No, sir, he was not.
Q. Was he recommended to be charged for those three crimes by the persons who took those confessions?
A. Yes, sir, he was.
Q. And who would that have been that would have been recommending that he be charged?
A. The chief of police of Bellmead brought the case to the district attorney’s office concerning Glen Parks.
The other two cases were brought to the attention of district attorney’s office in much the same manner as any other - - the results of any other investigation would be given to the prosecutor’s office. The prosecutor’s office felt like there was insufficient evidence, and yet there was some
Page 2455
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Pressure, too, I think, from the officers to do something with those cases.
And then after they began their investigation and asked for our assistance from our officer and, of course, all the information that was available those cases was presented to the McLennan County Grand Jury.
Q. And on the basis of that extensive investigation by your office and the attorney general and on the basis of that grand jury investigation, what did the McLennan County Grand Jury do regarding charging Henry Lucas with those three murders?
A. They returned three no bills.
Q. And these were to three crimes that Henry Lucas had confesses to?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. And in each of those confessions he gave details of the crime scene, did he not?
A. Yes, sir, he did.
Q. Did he go to any of those crime scenes personally?
A. Yes, sir. The Glen Parks scene was identified by Lucas on videotape, I believe. He stated as he was driving down the road that it was either this house of that, and he indicated two
Page 2456
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Particular houses and it was one of those two houses.
The - - It’s my recollection that he was not aware of the location, particularly of either Dorothy Collins or Rita Salazar. And I might - - Rita Salazar was traveling with a young man named Frank Keith together, and they were both murdered. One of them was left in McLennan County and one in a county to the south, Williamson County. I believe it was Ms. Salazar’s body that was left in McLennan County.
It is my understanding and I do not have direct knowledge of this that Lucas, after not being able to point out the scene, later pointed to an area from a helicopter when he was being returned from yet another confession and said that is the scene, and apparently it was fairly close and ultimately that case was cleared.
Q. As a matter of example to the Court, in Defendant’s Exhibit 26-A, in those 186 murders can you estimate, based in those or based on the number in the task force synopsis, how many of those Henry Lucas would have given detailed confessions on and how many of those he would have gone to the crime scene and identified the crime scene on?
A. I believe he provided certain details to the offense in every confession.
Page 2457
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. Okay.
A. I don’t believe that the officer, had he been 180 degrees off, any officer would have cleared the case. I do not know how many cases he was returned to the crime scene on. Many jurisdictions did not want to clear a case on Lucas’ confession unless he was able to return to the crime scene.
It’s my understanding from reading the various synopses that some jurisdictions accepted the confession without Lucas’ having returned to the crime scene, but I don’t know the numbers on that.
Q. Would it be fair to estimate that maybe 100 out of those synopses would have been crimes that Henry Lucas returned to the crime and identified the crime scene? A. Well, sir, I would say that that’s probably a fair number.
Q. And out of that number, do you know how many your office was able to say that Henry Lucas could have been involved in based on his actual alibi whereabouts? A. Well, none of them, other than the Montaque and Denton County cases.
Q. I want you to look through that box in front of you, Mr. Feary, that is identified as Defendant’s
Page 2458
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Exhibits 26-B through 26-YY, and I’m going to ask as to each of them if you can identify these personally as documents that you have either received or that you could ascertain whether they are true and correct copies of the originals?
26-B is Moore’s bill to Goldburg School.
The bill to the Goldburg School was obtained through the U.S. mail by me after I spoke with the superintendent of the school district. When I visited with him, he was unable to locate the bill right at that time and agreed to mail it to me when he did find it.
Q. Okay. 26-C is the magistrate’s warning for Henry Lee Lucas there in Montaque County. Have you ever seen that document before?
A. Yes, sir, I have.
Q. And does it appear to be a true and correct copy of that document?
A. Yes, sir, it does.
Q. 26-D is the documentation of his having an abandoned vehicle in Needles, California. Have you ever seen that?
A. Yes, sir, I have. It was part of a package of documents that I believe Glen Cardon brought back to Montaque County with him. It appears to be a copy
Page 2459
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
of that same report.
Q. To your knowledge, is that a true and correct copy of that document?
A. Yes, sir, it does appear to be so.
Q. 26-E is a money order from Western Union dated 5-25-82?
A. Yes, sir. That was obtained at the request - - or by investigator Glen Cardon, and he obtained it in the mail. I don’t recall whether he picked it up personally from Western Union, but he did obtain it and bring it to me personally.
Q. Does it appear to be a true and correct copy of the document he received in the mail?
A. Yes, sir, it is.
Q. All right. 26-F is a letter regarding Henry Lucas having been in Bluefield Community Hospital. Can you recognize that? A. Yes, sir, I do. That particular letter there was addressed to me by Corporal Dodson of the state police.
Q. Does that appear to be a true and correct copy of that document as you received it?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. 26-G, welfare records from Virginia, can you recognize those?
Page 2460
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Yes, sir, I do.
Q. Do those appear to be true and correct copies of the welfare records on file in Virginia regarding Henry Lee Lucas?
A. Yes, sir, they do.
Q. They are very difficult to read, are they not? A. Yes, sir, they are.
Q. But do they appear to be copies of the documents that you received from the Virginia welfare department? A. I believe that I received these indirectly through another investigative agency, probably the Maryland state police. But these do appear to be copies of documents that I received from the Maryland police, state police.
Q. And to your knowledge, are these true and correct copies of the welfare records of Virginia on Henry Lucas?
A. Yes, sir, to the best of my knowledge, they are.
Q. 26-H, the Ryan report, have you seen this?
A. Yes, sir, I have.
Q. Is that a true and correct copy of that document?
Page 2461
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Yes, sir, it is?
Q. 26-I, the Pennsylvania investigation of Henry Lee Lucas, have you seen that?
A. Yes, sir, I have.
Q. Is that a true and correct copy of that document?
A. My previous view of this particular document has been within the last few days. I was aware of its existence, but I had not seen it previously.
Q. Can you identify that document? A. It is addressed to Deputy Chief Bob Werner, the Department of Public Safety, and it is signed, sincerely, Thomas F. Gallagher, whom I know to be the director of the Pennsylvania Bureau of Criminal Investigation. I know this due to my contacts with Luther Henry, who is an agent assigned to Mr. Gallagher.
Q. Does that appear to be a true and correct copy of that document? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Defendant’s Exhibit 26-J, receipts and other documents from Darrell and Aomi Pierce, can you recognize those? A. Yes, sir, I do.
Q. Are these true and correct documents - -
Page 2462
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Copies of the documents that you previously generated in your investigation?
Yes, sir, they are.
Q. Defendant’s Exhibit 26-K, Kiser scrap metal records, can you identify these?
A. Yes, sir. Those are copies of documents that were sent to me by the Maryland state police, and I was in contact with Mr. Kiser and those were provided to Maryland at my request.
Q. To your knowledge, are these true and correct copies of those documents showing when Henry Lucas sold scrap metal up in Pennsylvania? A. Yes, sir.
Q. 26-L, the Hoopes Dairy Farm records, can you recognize these?
A. These are records that were given again to me by investigators from the Maryland state police. They were originally obtained by and are generated the Pennsylvania state police when they began investigating Lucas’ background. And they are correct copies of what I have previously seen.
Q. 26-M, the Kaolin mushroom records, have you see those? A. Yes, sir, I have.
Q. Are those true and correct copies of those
Page 2463
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
records?
Yes, sir.
Q. 26-N, the Maryland police records, have you see these documents?
A. Yes, sir, I have.
Q. And is this a true and correct copy of the documents you received regarding the Maryland police reports on Henry Lucas? A. Yes, sir, they are.
Q. 26-O, the Lemons interview of Wade Kiser and Darrell Pierce talking about Lucas and Toole being together in 1977, have you seen that transcript? A. No, sir, I have not previously seen that.
Q. I will set it aside.
26-P, can you identify this transcript, Brenda Plaski?
No, sir, I have not previously seen that.
Q. I will set it aside.
26-Q, Maryland scrap metal sales, have you seen that document? A. Yes, sir. That, in actuality, appears to be additional copies of the previously mentioned scrap records that we discussed.
Q. You’re right. So those are copies of the Pennsylvania scrap metal?
Page 2464
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Yes, sir. Wade Kiser’s business was in Maryland, yet he carried some of the scrap that he was selling over into Pennsylvania.
Q. All right. Let’s put that aside.
26-R, the Cecil County court and jail records, are you familiar with those? A. Yes, sir, I am.
Q. From Elkton, Maryland? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Regarding Henry Lucas being present on certain days there? A. Yes, sir, I had previously seen those.
Q. Do those appear to be true and correct copies of the Elkton, Maryland, jail records showing that Henry Lee Lucas was up there on 7-22-81?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. 26-S, Lucas’s dental records, have you seen that? A. Yes, sir, I have.
Q. Is that a true and correct copy of his dental records? A. Yes, sir.
Q. From Port Deposit, Maryland? A. Yes, sir. I believe the dentist was in Rising Sun, which is a small community near Port
Page 2465
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Deposit.
Q. That is a true and correct copy of that, to you your knowledge?
A. Yes, sir, it is.
Q. 26-T, Leonard Kiser’s divorce records, have you seen that? A. Yes, sir, I have.
Q. Does that appear to be a true and correct copy of that?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. 26-U, Benjamin’s trailer park records showing that Henry Lee Lucas was present in January 1977, the day that Mr. Moody said Henry Lucas killed somebody, on direct examination, are you familiar with this document?
A. Yes, sir, I am.
Q. Is that a true and correct copy of Henry Lucas giving a receipt to that Maryland Benjamin’s trailer park?
A. Yes, sir, those are the records that were maintained by Mrs. Benjamin, according to her statement to me.
Q. 26-V, the Maryland public assistance records, are you familiar with this document?
A. Yes, sir.
Page 2466
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. Is that a true and correct copy?
A. Yes, sir, it is.
Q. 26-W, Maryland title records, have you seen these before? A. Yes, sir, I have.
Q. And are those true and correct copies? A. Yes, sir, they are.
Q. To your knowledge, and you previously have been in possession of these documents, have you not?
A. Yes, sir, I have.
Q. 26-X, the marriage license of Henry Lucas and Betty Crawford dated November 7th, 1975, have you seen this before? A. Yes, sir, I have.
Q. Is that a true and correct copy of that marriage license? A. Yes, sir.
Q. 26-Y, the Luther report on Henry Lucas?
A. That appears to be a copy of the letter that was the cover to the previously discussed report.
Q. Okay. On what?
A. That Luther Henry generated as a result of interviews of Aomi and Darrell Pierce where Luther, Henry and myself were both present.
Q. Does this appear to be a true and correct
Page 2467
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Copy of this document, the letter from Tom Gallagher, the director of the Pennsylvania Bureau of Criminal Investigation?
Yes, sir, it does.
Q. Who assisted you in determining Henry Lucas’ whereabouts up in Pennsylvania and Maryland?
A. Yes, sir. Mr. Gallagher was not personally involved in that, but his agent, Luther Henry, was.
Q. All right. 26-Z, the Henry Lee Lucas auto records from Maryland, have you seen that before?
A. Yes, sir, I have.
Q. Is that a true and correct copy of his auto records in Maryland? A. Yes, sir.
Q. 26-AA, the Henry Lee Lucas paychecks from Southeast Colorcoat in Florida, have you seen those before?
A. Yes sir, I have.
Q. Do those appear to be true and correct copies of those checks? A. Yes, sir. Not the entirety of the checks, but those copies that are there appear to be correct copies of various checks that - -
Q. Various checks that relate to certain homicides that Henry Lucas had confessed to
Page 2468
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
committing in other parts of the country?
Yes, sir.
Q. And these checks prove that Henry Lucas was present in Florida on the day that he had confessed to being someplace else killing somebody. Is that correct? A. Not exactly were the various dates, but those checks have been verified by the Department of Public Safety, by the laboratory as having been signed by Lucas and due to the bank dates that are stamped on the back of them, place Lucas in Florida on or about those dates.
Q. All right. The 26-BB, the auto insurance records from Jacksonville, Florida, have you seen those? A. Yes, sir, I have.
Q. Are these true and correct copies of records you have previously received in your investigation in the Henry Lee Lucas affair? A. Yes, sir. I have received these documents in person by Mr. Paul Pappet, who is, I believe, the officer manager for the Gator Insurance.
Q. 26-CC - - And those are true and correct copies? A. Yes sir.
Page 2469
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. 26-Cc, the scrap metal sales receipt from Jacksonville, Florida, showing Henry Lee Lucas selling scrap metal there?
A. Yes, sir. Again, this does not appear to be the entirety of the file. The records that are here appear to be copies of records that were previously obtained from Commercial Metals.
Q. And the ones that are in Defendant’s Exhibit 26-CC would reflect Henry Lucas’ presence in Jacksonville, Florida, on dates pertinent to when he was confessing to committing a crime elsewhere in the United States. Is that correct? A. Yes, sir.
Q. 26-DD, the Florida auto insurance records, are you familiar with this letter? A. Yes, sir, I am.
Q. Is that a true and correct copy of that letter regarding his Florida auto insurance?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. 26-EE, the Commercial Metals receipt and handwriting sample submission, I believe this is some more of the documents that you previously identified in 26-CC. Are you familiar with these documents? A. Yes, sir, I am.
Q. Do they appear to be true and correct copies
Page 2470
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Of the scrap metal sales receipts and of the DPS lab report stating that Henry Lee Lucas’ signature is on those documents? A. Yes, sir.
Q. 26-FF, the Commercial Metal sales records, are you familiar with this synopsis here?
A. No, sir, I’m not. I have not seen that previously.
Q. Okay. I will pull this up, then.
Are you familiar with 26-GG, the Jacksonville food stamp records of Henry Lee Lucas?
Yes, sir, I am.
Q. Does that appear to be a true and correct copy of the times that Henry Lee Lucas received food stamps in Jacksonville, Florida? A. Yes, sir, it does.
Q. You have previously received that document, had you not? A. Yes, sir.
Q. 26-HH - - or the - - is the entire Commercial Metal scrap metal sales records of Henry Lee Lucas. Is that what 26-HH would be?
A. Yes, sir. It would appear to b. Based on the thickness of the file and what’s on it, it would appear to be in its entirety.
Page 2471
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. Upon viewing that, does it appear to be true and correct copies of the documents that you previously obtained from Commercial Metal Sales Company? A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. 26-II, the Frank and Frieda Powell school records from Jacksonville, Florida, can you identify those?
A. That’s correct, yes, sir.
Q. And Henry Lee Lucas, in many of his confessions, confessed to committing these murders using them as accomplices. Is that correct? A. Yes, sir, he did include them as either being present at the scene or taking part in the various murders.
Q. In fact, he at one time said one of his MO’s was to use them to go ring the door bell so he could enter somebody’s house?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct. He said that he would send them to the house requesting food or water or something of that nature and gain entrance of the house.
Page 2472
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. So for the benefit of the Court, the school records of Frank and Frieda Powell, if they indicate they were in school on a day that Henry Lee Lucas said he was with them somewhere else in the country, would prove an alibi for Henry Lee Lucas? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Can you identify those records?
A. Yes, sir, I can. The first page is a letter that was sent pursuant to an inquiry by myself to the Duval County, Florida, public schools regarding two school years of dates that they were absent. And subsequent to that date, the Jacksonville, Florida, Police Department - - or sheriff’s office contacted the Duval County public schools again to obtain additional school year information as well as various school holiday information to compile a more complete record of school attendance. And the subsequent pages are a copy of computer entries that were generated by the Jacksonville Police Department.
Q. And upon checking those computer entries as a synopsis of the school records of Frank and Frieda Powell, are you satisfied those are true and correct computer synopses and true and correct copies of their school records regarding Frank and Frieda Powell?
Page 2473
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Yes, sir. I discussed this issue with an individual employed by the Jacksonville, Florida, Sheriff’s office, Mike Gould, who stated that he personally had entered this information based on records obtained from the Duval County public school system.
Q. 26-JJ, the Polk County, Florida, records regarding the custody of Frieda Powell. Are you familiar with these records?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Are those true and correct copies of those?
A. Yes, sir. This information came to my attention by way of a - - investigation reports generated by law enforcement officers in Montaque and Denton Counties, and these documents were portions of those offense reports.
Q. And 26-KK, the receipt from Georgia for a truck, Georgia Tool, can you recognize that? A. Yes, sir, I do
Q. Is that a true and correct copy of that document? A. Yes, sir.
Q. 26-LL, the Gator Insurance records from Henry Lee Lucas buying insurance in Florida, can you recognize these documents?
Page 2474
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Yes, sir.
Q. Are these true and correct copies of these documents? A. Yes, sir, they are.
Q. 26-MM, Henry Lee Lucas work records at Southeast Colorcoat, does this appear to be a true and correct copy of his dates and times of employment at Southeast Colorcoat in Jacksonville, Florida?
A. Yes, sir, it does. I don’t know that that’s a complete record of all the dates he worked there.
Q. But of the two papers that are in Defendant’s Exhibit 26-MM, are these true and correct copies? A. Yes, sir.
Q. 26-NN, the Gator Insurance records again, do you recognize those? A. Yes, sir. That appears to be a duplicate of approximately two files previous.
Q. We will take that out.
26-OO, the Florida food stamp records, does that appear to be true and correct copies of the food stamp records that Henry Lee Lucas received at various times when he was in Florida or the documentation that he received food stamps from the Florida Department of Health and Rehabilitative
Page 2475
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
services?
Yes, sir. This appears to be a more complete file of his food stamp activity in Florida.
Q. Okay. True and correct copies thereof? A. Yes, sir.
Q. 26-PP, the Commercial Metal Sales records?
A. Yes, sir. It appears again to be a - -
Q. Duplicate?
A. Duplicate of a - -
Q. Previous exhibit?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Pull that out.
Okay. 26-QQ, the Labor, Inc., payroll checks of Lucas, do these appear to be true and correct copies of the payroll checks he received from Labor, Inc., in Jacksonville, Florida? A. Yes, sir. Again, based on the volume of those records, it appears to be a more complete listing of - - or duplication of the checks that I saw copies of that have been submitted to the Department of Public Safety lab.
Q. 26-RR, the Labor, Inc., Southeast Colorcoat records, is this a more complete copy of the synopses that we previously discussed?
A. Yes, sir, it is.
Page 2476
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. Does it appear to be a true and correct copy?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. 26-SS, the Labor, Inc. - - well, that’s the same thing.
26-TT, the interview with Rueben Moore. Have you seen this before?
No, sir, I have not.
Q. Okay. Have you seen this receipt from the Brady Motel before?
A. No, sir, I have not.
Q. Have you seen this driver’s license application before?
A. No, sir, I haven’t.
Q. Have you seen this pick-up order in Frieda Powell?
Yes, sir. That appears to be a copy of what I previously saw.
Q. 26-XX is a pick-up order from the circuit court of Polk County, Florida, regarding Frieda Powell?
A. Yes, sir. Again, that was viewed by me as a part of the Denton investigation into the disappearance and the death of Frieda Powell.
Q. Excuse me. That would have been 26-XX - - I mean, 26-YY, the Florida school records
Page 2477
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
from Duval County public schools?
Yes, sir.
Q. Is that a true and correct copy of those records and a letter from you? A. Yes, sir. A letter to me from - -
Q. A letter to you? A. From the Duval County public schools, yes, sir.
MR. PONTON: At this time, Your Honor, I would move for the admission of Defendant’s Exhibit 26-B through 26-YY with the exclusion of 26-O, P, Q, NN, PP, SS, TT, UU, VV and WW.
MR. MOODY: Your Honor, I would like the Court to reserve its ruling until I have a right to cross-examine the witness.
THE COURT: All right, sir.
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) These are the bulk of the documents that you based the narrative reports and the Lucas report, you and your office when you-all wrote this report. Is that correct, Mr. Feary?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. And it’s based on those documents that you and your office were able to put together a synopsis on where Henry Lee Lucas was for eight years of his life?
Page 2478
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Yes, sir.
Q. And it was based on those documents that you were able to satisfy yourself that Henry Lee Lucas had probably not committed at least 200 murders that he not only confessed to but that the Texas Rangers and other police agencies had cleared based on his confessions. Is that correct? A. Yes, sir, in conjunction with interviews of individuals.
Q. Okay. And at the time that your investigation began in early 1985 into Henry Lucas’ whereabouts by you and your office, did you have any discussions with the Texas Rangers and the Texas Ranger task force regarding their investigation, if any, into where Henry Lucas was during the period of time of 1975 to 1983?
A. Sir, there were discussions by members of the attorney general’s office with members of the Department of Public Safety. I was present at one such discussion involving Colonel Adams and another one involving Assistant Chief Bob Werner stating that we did have information indicating that Lucas was in places other than where he had confessed to committing crimes at. And we did state that we felt that it was necessary to delve into this matter more
Page 2479
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Thoroughly than had been done.
Q. Did Colonel Adams share with you whether or not there was any kind of previous investigation by the Texas Rangers to ascertain where Henry Lucas was?
A. No, sir, he did not. The gist of that conversation, my recollection was the task force was primarily a coordinating body and was not specifically clearing the cases and that it was up to the individual jurisdictions involved to further investigate to determine whether or not Lucas could have been present at the crime scene.
Q. Do you know if the task force did any kind of investigation to try to share with these local investigating agencies when the task force could determine where Henry was?
A. Prior to our contact with the Department of Public Safety, I’m not aware of any specific investigation performed by the task force specifically to determine where Lucas was.
I later learned that Ranger Phil Ryan had, in fact, obtained some information concerning Lucas’ whereabouts, including some of the Southeast Color Coat records, and - - as well as information that basically put Lucas in Maryland shortly after he got out of the Michigan state penitentiary, but I don’t
Page 2480
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
know that that information was delivered to the task force and ultimately to the various other officers who interviewed Lucas.
Q. That information that Texas Ranger Phil Ryan obtained regarding Jacksonville work records and Maryland records, when would that - - when was that obtained by him? A. It is my understanding that it was obtained prior to the trial in Denton County for the murder of Frieda Powell, which was prior to the formation of the task force. I believe that the task force was formed in November of 1983.
The records concerning Southeast Color Coat that were ultimately obtained by McLennan County sheriff’s deputy and given to me were obtained from the Montaque County sheriff’s office from old records that were available in Montaque County prior to Lucas’ transfer.
Q. Can you give me any estimate on the number of murders that are cleared or that those records from Jacksonville and Maryland would prove that Henry Lucas could not have committed? A. No, sir, I can’t. They cover, combined, a rather significant time span. In addition, we did encounter records that indicated that Sheriff Conway
Page 2481
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
And Ranger Ryan had contacted Jack Smart in California and basically learned that Lucas had arrived in California, I believe, in January of ’82, and then was sent to Montaque County in May, I believe, of ’82. And that again covers approximately four to five months of time.
And I believe that there have been eight homicides cleared with Lucas as - - by Lucas’ confessions that allegedly occurred elsewhere that California despite the testimony of Jack Smart to Ranger Ryan and Sheriff Conway that Lucas was, in fact, in California at that time.
Q. When did Jack Smart tell Texas Ranger Ryan and Sheriff Conway that information?
A. See, I don’t have the exact dates on that. But, again, it was prior to the trial in Denton County.
Q. So to your knowledge, that information that would have shown the possibility of Lucas committing those six or eight murders was never subsequently shared by the Texas Ranger task force with the investigating agencies? A. To my knowledge, it was not. Those investigating agencies ultimately cleared cases based on Lucas’ confession. The scenario would have to be,
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
In my mind, that either the information was provided and disregarded or it was never provided.
I have not yet talked to - - And I have not talked to every clearing officer that - - or every officer that has cleared a case based on Lucas’ confession, but I’m not aware of any officers who have stated that they were apprised of this conflicting information prior to interviewing Lucas.
Q. And this conflicting information was provided to at least one Texas Ranger in the summer of 1983?
A. Yes, sir - - No. It would have - -
Q. Would have been provided at least to Texas Phil Ryan - -
A. Yes, sir.
Q. - - sometime during the summer of 1983 prior to the September 1983 trial of Frieda Powell? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And the Jacksonville, Florida, work records and the Maryland work records - - or work and residence records would have been provided to Texas Rangers approximately when?
A. We would have to look at the investigation reports from the Montaque county sheriff’s office and Ranger Ryan, but there were specific references to
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
phone conversations with the Maryland investigators. I think this is something that Ranger Ryan or a state police investigator from Maryland would be able to more accurately pinpoint.
Q. But my point now it there were numerous homicides that Henry Lucas confessed to that occurred in places other than Florida and Maryland as reflected by those records. Is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And he confessed to those murders while he was in the custody of the Texas Ranger task force in Georgetown?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And after - - And he confessed to those murders after the Texas Rangers had received documents showing where he was? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And to - -
A. At least information from other officers.
Q. At least information from other officers. And to your knowledge, was that information showing the impossibility of henry Lucas committing the murders he was confessing to shared with the local agencies that investigated Henry Lucas for those cases?
Page 2484
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
No, sir. To my knowledge, it was not. In fact, the Department of Public Safety document that has been referred to as a travel log that has various dates and homicides listed other than these synopses - - It’s a separate document, more of a calendar, chronology type document - - refers to the Southeast Colorcoat records as inaccurate work records. So those were apparently at one time brought forward. However, they were referred to as inaccurate and thus discarded.
Q. Did you investigate the accuracy of those work records?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. Did you go to Florida and talk to the employees and foreman of Southeast Colorcoat?
A. I talked to a foreman of the job who was there at the time that Lucas worked for Southeast Colorcoat, and I talked with the owner of Southeast Colorcoat, Jim Reeves, Jr., I believe, and their bookkeeper, Eileen Knight.
Q. Did you look through those records and the books and payroll sheets and everything like that to satisfy yourself whether or not the records were accurate as to Henry Lucas being present in Jacksonville?
Page 2485
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
The original records were not made available to me at that time. I had previously obtained copies of them. I discussed these records with the foreman, the bookkeeper and the owner.
The foreman stated that the records were, in fact, accurate based on his personal observations. Mr. Reeves stated that he did not have personal knowledge of every employee’s presence on the job site, but that because of his extensive knowledge of Ottis Toole and his family, that had Ottis been away from the job site for any length of time, that he, John Reeves, would have known about it. And Reeves further stated that Ottis was the type of individual that, quote, squealed on other employees who were, I believe he used the term, goldbricking or not carrying their load, and that he did not believe that Ottis was gone from the job site for any great length of time.
He stated that he felt that the foreman may have fudged and given him an hour or an afternoon here and there off early where they could go tend to personal business, but that he did not believe at that time that either Ottis or Lucas had left their job sites for extensive periods of time when they were, in fact, being shown on the payroll records.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. Now, these payroll records became an issue at Henry Lucas’ only other capital murder persecution, did they not?
A. Yes, sir, they did.
Q. And when Henry Lucas was being prosecuted for capital murder in the orange socks case, didn’t Sheriff Boutwell suddenly come into information that Henry Lucas had these payroll records that put him in Jacksonville, Florida, on the day that this unidentified orange socks hitchhiker was killed in his county?
A. Yes, sir. He came into possession - - In fact, those records, to the best of my knowledge, were introduced in that trial.
Q. And after he got those documents and found out there was a document placing Henry Lucas 1,500 miles away on the day that this person was killed in his county, are you aware that Sheriff Boutwell conducted another interview of Henry Lucas asking Henry Lucas if Henry would confess to participating in falsifying these records?
A. Yes, sir. Sheriff Boutwell mentioned at one point when I discussed this with him that Lucas had told him that he, Lucas, had paid off the foreman to falsify the work records and he would split paychecks
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
with the foreman in exchange for this.
Q. Now that became - - Actually that foreman that Henry Lucas confessed to paying off never testified to that at the orange socks trial, did he? A. He didn’t testify that he had been paid off. I understand he testified, but he testified that the - - And I haven’t seen the records on this, but according to his statement to me, he stated that he testified that, in fact, if he marked Lucas present on the job site, Lucas was there.
He stated that he had been promised a bonus for bringing this one particular job, which involved the reroofing of several buildings of the Jacksonville Naval Air Station, if he brought this project in on time, that he would receive a bonus of $5,000. And based on the pay scale for Lucas and Ottis, that he could not possibly have gotten more money by taking bribes than he could have if he had brought the job in on time and that by letting the workers go, he would be hampering his ability to bring the job in on time.
Q. But in Henry Lucas’ other capital murder prosecution, the prosecution in that case did introduce that purported confession by Henry Lucas where he talked about paying that man off, didn’t
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
they, to your knowledge?
Yes, sir. To the best of my knowledge, they did.
Q. And Henry Lucas received the death penalty in that case, didn’t he? A. Yes, sir, he did.
Q. Based on your extensive interviews with those people in Jacksonville, are you satisfied that Henry Lucas never paid anybody off to falsify any records?
A. Yes, sir, I am.
Q. Now, this document, this Lucas report is, to your knowledge, a true and correct compilation of Henry Lee Lucas’ whereabouts from ’75 to ’83 as compiled by your office and the attorney general of the state of Tex. Is that correct? A. Yes, sir, that is.
Q. And this document consists of a narrative at the beginning and summaries of interviews of witnesses and finally a time log showing where Henry Lucas was - - actually was as opposed to where certain homicides occurred. Is that correct? A. Yes, sir, it is.
Q. And you were responsible for writing much of that document personally, were you not?
Page 2489
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. And then that was revised by Attorney General Mattox and other members of your office before it was finally published. Is that correct? A. Yes, sir. It was not revised as to substance. It was formatted differently, but the information that we have generated originally is essentially intact in that report.
Q. And that report was provided to the Department of Public Safety and they responded to it before it was published. Is that correct? A. Yes, sir, that is.
MR. PONTON: Is this Defendant’s Exhibit 30?
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. PONTON: Your Honor, I have a problem. I didn’t bring my copy of it. This is the district attorney’s copy of it, but I want to introduce Defendant’s 30 as a copy of the Lucas report. I just have to bring one from my office to tender to the Court. It will be the same document published by his office, which I will tender as Defendant’s Exhibit 30, the Lucas report.
MR. MOODY: Again, Your Honor, I would like you to reserve your ruling until I have had an opportunity to cross-examine Mr. Feary on it.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
THE COURT: All right. I’ll reserve the ruling until the state has a chance to look at the document that you’re going to present.
MR. PONTON: Yes, that’s - -
THE COURT: Because if we don’t get to see it, Mr. Ponton, I’m not sure what it might be.
MR. PONTON: Absolutely, Your Honor. I’m just talking about just an exact copy of that.
THE COURT: You know, you can take the cover of this thing and put anything in between it.
MR. PONTON: That’s right. I would, of course, present that to the district attorney’s office.
THE COURT: It’s not that I don’t trust you. It’s just that I think we ought to make sure all of our documents are exactly what they purport to be.
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) So is it your conclusion, based upon your office’s investigation of Henry Lucas, your personal conclusion, Mr. Feary, that Henry Lee Lucas could - - at least cannot be proven to have committed more than three murders in his life? A. Yes, sir. That was the conclusion that we reached, that the evidence available strongly indicated his involvement in those cases. And it
Page 2491
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Appeared to be an absent lack of evidence in the majority of the other cases to put Lucas at this site, the crime scene.
Q. And would it be further your opinion that Henry Lee Lucas remained in Montaque County continuously throughout the month of May 1983 and did not leave there until June 4th, 1983, with the exception of a brief trip which was not a long enough trip to come to El Paso County?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
MR. PONTON: Pass the witness, Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. We are going to take a brief break, ladies and gentlemen.
(A recess was taken.)
THE COURT: All right. Mr. Moody?
MR. MOODY: Thank you, Your Honor.
BY MR. MOODY:
Q. Mr. Feary?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Am I pronouncing that correctly?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Close to it. How long did you say you worked for the attorney general’s office?
Page 2492
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Since March of 1984.
Q. And let’s see. Let’s go over this book first, the Lucas report itself, authored, I guess, by your boss, Jim Mattox, the attorney general?
A. Yes, sir. There were various individuals involved in the preparation of that.
Q. All right. Now, isn’t it true that you’re making, you know, you’re making - - you have made a lot of conclusions here on direct examination? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Yet your, you know, your boss’ conclusion was questions about Henry Lucas will be debated for decades; this report is not offered as a final answer? A. That is correct.
Q. There may never be a final answer? A. Yes, sir.
Q. He was saying that, wasn’t he? A. Yes, sir.
Q. That the place for the answer to this is hopefully in the courtrooms and, you know, and with juries than it is with mere speculation. Correct? A. That is correct.
Q. Also a conclusionary note here in his prefix was that we found no evidence to prove that any members of law enforcement in Texas deliberately
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
tried to bring about this scheme of deception. Is that correct? A. Yes, sir, that is correct. That is his order.
Q. In other words, your-all’s conclusion as far as any wrongdoing on the part of either the Texas Rangers or on the part of local law enforcement officers in Texas was that - - your conclusion was there was no wrongdoing?
A. That’s right. No, sir.
Q. As far as wrongdoing would be deliberate, you know, type of material? A. Yes, sir. I believe - -
Q. You might not have agreed with the techniques of interviews and things like that. Is that correct? A. I believe at that stage that we found no evidence of wrongdoing. And that is correct. We did not find any direct evidence to indicate that any law enforcement officer in Texas deliberately manipulated the Lucas situation to elicit confessions.
Q. All right. Apparently - - Additionally, you added the phrase, “We appreciate the cooperation of Colonel Adams and his staff at the Texas Department of Public Safety”?
Page 2494
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Yes, sir.
Q. Apparently they did cooperate with you-all?
A. Yes, sir. There was a certain amount of cooperation.
Q. Right. In fact, you-all put out a prereport?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And they went through it and I think they made what they felt - - areas where you should correct it. I think you went back and in some areas you did make the corrections and some areas you just let it stand as you-all had concluded. Correct?
A. Yes, sir. That is correct.
Q. So, you know, they did point out some deficiencies in the way you-all had done your investigation and sometimes you agreed with them on that? A. No, sir. The deficiencies that I recall were more of information regarding current status of various crimes. I don’t know if you - - if you have seen the critique that they did, the Department of Public Safety?
Q. Yeah, I saw that.
A. Okay. The majority of those were relevant to statements of whether or not cases had been reopened, were at that time considered closed,
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Cleared or confirmed. There was semantics discussion involved in some of those critiques. And due to the changing nature of the cases as well as the conflicting reports from different members or the same department or previous members of those departments, we deleted a great deal of that information.
Q. Okay. Now, in regards to your-all’s investigation of both, I guess, Toole and Lucas - - Now, we are more primarily interested in Henry Lucas here.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. I guess Ottis Toole is more Florida’s problem.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. But there was another statement in here about your investigation: “Because their lifestyles did not generate an extensive paper trail, there are many time periods for which no documentation about Toole’s or Lucas’ activities is available.”
And they were not or particularly Henry Lucas was not the type of person that had steady employment, was he? A. No, sir, he was not.
Q. He had a very, very unsteady employment
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Record. I mean, he just didn’t just go to work for like RCA and punched in every morning and every single day for 10 or 15 years and that’s where he was? A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. So, I mean, he had a very unstable work record?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. The types of jobs he would do would be odds-and-ends type jobs. Correct? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Selling scrap metal or working on a construction job for a little while and then going and doing something else? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And then there would be large gaps in there about how he would employ himself; you would have no idea? A. I hesitate to agree with the statement we have no idea. There were large gaps in particularly the Maryland type period where the income from the family - - I believe you stated also in there was primarily his wife’s Social Security check. He was not gainfully employed in the form of drawing paychecks during that period. You’re absolutely correct in that.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. All right. And even when he was in Florida, I mean, he wasn’t really - - I mean, every day he was in Florida he wasn’t documented that he was there at the sheet metal company or selling scrap metal, was he? A. No, sir. The southeast Colorcoat - -
Q. I mean, Southeast Colorcoat. Pardon me. At the Southeast Colorcoat or selling some scrap metal? A. The Southeast Colorcoat records, I believe you will agree, indicate rather steady employment over a period of in excess of a year. The scrap metal records, of course, were generated when he took the scrap metal in to be sold.
Q. And, in fact, those scrap metal records - - and you-all have had them looked at, I know, by DPS as far as experts on handwriting, and many of those scrap metal receipts which have the name either Henry Lucas or H. Lucas really were not signed by him, were they?
A. No, sir, I don’t believe many is at all accurate. I believe the DPS examiners indicate that there is probably seven of those that are not Lucas’ handwriting and that the rest of them are.
Q. There are several, then? A. I believe seven is the number. I’m not sure
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
of that. The report from DPS specifically enumerates which documents are questionable, and then they don’t go so far as to say that Lucas did not sign those.
Q. Right. The others tend to be inconclusive. Is that right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. As to whether maybe he did and maybe he didn’t? A. Yes, sir.
Q. But - - And, of course, those were the - - that was the type of job that, I mean, you don’t go down and sell scrap metal every single day. He would sell it, I guess, as you collected it - -
A. Yes, sir.
Q. - - came up with it. So there were large gaps in that time frame as to whether he could have been in and out of Florida?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. And then the majority of your information would depend upon the interviews that you had, particularly in Maryland and those areas, different people that he was claiming that he lived with at the time? A. Yes, sir, that is correct.
Q. And, of course, you said - - Did you have any
Page 2499
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
experience in law enforcement before coming to the attorney general’s office? A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. What was that? A. I began my law enforcement career with the Department of Public Safety, went through the academy and then became a highway patrolman. I stayed with them approximately two years. I had experience with the Gatesville, Texas, Police Department.
I was a private investigator for the then Department of Public Welfare and was hired in 1977 by the Harris County District Attorney’s office as an investigator.
Q. Okay. And in Harris County - - I mean, I’m sure that the Harris County District Attorney’s office doesn’t have a policy that as soon as the wife come in or a family member comes in and says, “Oh, by the way, you know, the date that you say my husband or my brother committed this murder, well, he was with me all day,” and so then the DA in Harris County doesn’t just say, “Well, that’s an alibi that’s airtight. You’re right. Dismissed.” Right? They don’t do that, do they? A. No, sir, they do not.
Q. An alibi is not anything really unusual in
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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the courts across the country, are they? A. No, sir, they are not.
Q. Many people are convicted who have what they claim to be alibis and then juries just don’t buy their alibi? A. That is correct.
Q. I mean, it happened - - Well, it’s even happened to Henry Lee Lucas. They were talking to you in the orange socks case. Even though you had the opinion that he was in Florida at the time of the orange socks case, the jury was presented that evidence. Apparently the man came in and testified and said, “No, I didn’t phony up those work records,” and, of course, he did have a forgery conviction in his past? A. That’s correct.
Q. And the jury must have - - that found Henry Lucas guilty of that offense disregarded that evidence? A. Yes, sir, the jury did.
Q. And they must have, in fact, to reach the conclusion to have found him guilty that those work records were really not at least correct for that day, that they did not buy those work records? A. Obviously not.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. And a great deal of your alibis that you have come up with - - And I’m not criticizing the way you did it, because you may have had - - you know, as far as you going out and investigating, I mean, you state clearly that, you know, in the beginning that it wasn’t susceptible to a good paper trail. I mean, somebody like you, we might be able to go back and trace and say, “Oh, you worked in the Harris County DA’s office,” these different places. It would be easy to document your work records.
But you stated originally that Henry Lucas’ work records were very scanty - -
Yes, sir.
Q. - - over the years. And so you had to base your alibi on what friends, associates or relatives had to say about him? A. Yes, sir, that is correct in conjunction with those records. And had there been a direct conflict of records versus what those people had said, that would have been brought out in that report.
Q. Um-hum. And, in fact, the idea of those relatives, friends and associates, your conclusions are based upon the premise that they told you, number one, the truth, and number two, that they were not mistaken.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
In other words, they think - - you know, there is always - - when you’re looking back over seven or eight years, there can always be lapses in memory. I mean, obviously you don’t know exact - - I mean, you might be able to pick out a day that you might know where you were and what you were doing on May 15, 1978, but then again you might not? A. Yes, sir, that’s correct. The accuracy of those individuals’ memory was a point and I think that it was well taken, that unless they could coordinate their memory with certain events or notable exceptions that it would be difficult to go back, say, ten years, which in some cases we were doing.
And it appeared to me and a good number of other people who have interviewed these individuals that the exceptions were more easily remembered in that Lucas at that time didn’t travel that much and they could more easily recall when he did travel versus his presence in Maryland day after day after day.
Q. And the people that you were dealing with - - I mean, I’m not dispersing anything towards them. Most of the people you were talking to who were friends, associates or relatives of Henry Lucas and
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Ottis Toole were not highly educated people? A. That is correct.
Q. That they were not - - That’s not to say they weren’t honest people. I’m not trying to say that they weren’t honest.
That maybe they hadn’t - - Not just they didn’t have any schooling, did you see any problems, and deficiencies in some of them as far as their thinking and did they seem to - - some of them have some very unusual thought processes? I know Toole’s family that you went to visit had some very strange people.
Yes, sir. I believe that Lucas’ relatives can be best described as from a very low socioeconomic class but on the same hand, generally hard-working individuals. That work doesn’t tend to produce a great deal of income.
His half-sister, Almeda, it’s my understanding has maintained the same job for many, many years with the Veterans Administration. These are people that again, as you said, appear to have a low education but make do with what they have.
Q. And, of course, they are people that have problems in their lives just like you have problems in yours and I’m sure I have problems in mine and we
Page 2504
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
All have problems in our own personal lives from time and time, and our biggest concern at any of these times, if you would have asked them, would not have been, you know, where was Henry Lucas?
You know, their concerns may have been how to feed their family, how to do their job and take care of their own personal life and not so much as to, “Oh, yeah, I was watching Henry Lucas every day, you know, just to make sure he was here.”
Yes, sir. I think you said something very significant there, that one of their main concerns was to feed the families and that Lucas and his wife, Betty, were termed as sponges and mooches, and this inhibited their ability to feed their families. And that’s why - - one of the reasons that I recall Lucas being there in that he was another mouth to feed on a consistent basis.
Q, And now some officers apparently had an opportunity to interview some of these family members before you interviewed them? A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. And some of these people, I believe, have indicated that again after - - or when they talked to them, they were much less sure of where Henry Lucas was or whether or not he was with them than when
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
you-all talked to them?
Yes, sir, that is correct. They, in fact, stated that after they were initially interviewed, because prior to that time, Lucas’ presence was not an issue with them, that they did talk among themselves and remembered events such as Christmases and happenings that were significant in their life that they recalled Lucas being present for.
Q. And so then, you know, just like the complaint against the prosecution is always that, hey, once you talk - - I mean, once the police have talked to you once and the DA talks to you and then you get up on the witness stand, it’s much easier - - you’re much more sure about your statement then than you were when you initially made it.
And so in this case, these people, when they initially made their statements, they were not quite so sure, but then after talking to Mr. Lemons, who had a real personal interest in all of this, a Mr. Aynesworth, who might well have had a very real financial interest in all of this and then after talking to you-all, you know, then their stories get to be very solid. I mean, you can see them getting more solid all the time.
I mean, like to - - Betty Crawford gets to
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
The point now where she is saying that, you know, that Henry Lucas was with me, you know, every second of every day, you know, almost like a lap dog or something, and, you know, her initial statements were not quite that clear.
I don’t believe she ever came to that point, that he was there constantly, that he never tool trips that took him away from there from an extensive period of time, beyond a day or so.
It’s my understanding from listening to the previous conversations and the one where she was videotaped when I interviewed her that she said essentially the same thing. She did recall additional events to some extent that she stated that she did not recall earlier, but I don’t believe that Betty Crawford’s testimony has changed significantly over the years.
Q. Apparently one of the really, you know, one of the crucial witnesses or witness that could have been important, was it Frankie Powell? A. Yes, sir. That was the younger brother of Frieda Powell.
Q. Because of situations in Florida, nobody has really been able to interview him? A. I understand that various police agencies
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
did interview him early on.
Q. Early on?
A. Yes, sir. And that a court order was entered prohibiting further contacts because of emotional problems that Frankie Powell has had.
Q. Right. And so there was one witness that of the four - - of the people that were all together at certain times or there was claims that they were together, Ottis, Henry Lucas, Becky and Frankie Powell, the conclusion is, of course, that Becky has been murdered? A. Yes, sir.
Q. By Henry Lucas? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And, of course, I think the attorney general and your people have reached that conclusion that he killed Becky Powell? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And then he killed Mrs. Rich? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And, in fact, you know, it - - sometimes it strikes me as kind of unusual when the defense attorneys will ask the question, “Well, isn’t it true that Henry Lucas has probably only killed three people?” Three people is a significant number of
Page 2508
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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People to kill.
That’s correct.
Q. Isn’t it? In fact, we have executed - - the attorney general is involved in all kinds of executions in Texas, isn’t he? A. Yes, sir.
Q. We haven’t executed anybody yet that has had that many, have we, prior murders? I don’t think - -
A. I’m not sure. I know that there has been an execution involving individuals that have committed more than one murder. But I agree with you wholeheartedly three murders is a very severe, significant offense.
Q. And a person, you know, once they have - - and it’s not just like - - There is different ways of killing people, obviously. You get the cases where someone walks in a bar and shoots randomly and kills three people all at one time.
But Mr. Lucas’ case, at least the three people being conceded by everybody that he killed took place over a span of time. They are three separate incidents.
That’s correct.
Q. And there is no question that a person or is there a question in your mind, if you can kill your
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Mother, you can kill your common-law wife and then cut her up in pieces and spread her across a field and that you can kill a poor crippled-up 82-year-old lady, there may not be a lot of people that you wouldn’t be capable of killing, are there? A. Well, sir, I believe that those events are one reason that the world as a whole was willing to accept the idea that Henry Lucas killed everybody he claimed. But as you will note in those three individuals, they were all females who had a relationship, ongoing relationship with Lucas of some nature and that allegedly all three of those murders were killed - - were committed by a stabbing.
So to go from the premise to that he is capable of killing anybody, I personally don’t make that jump.
Q. There are probably numerous mothers killed by offspring for emotional reasons or whatever. It is, I think, significant that they are all females. Even if you can kill your mother, you may not be able to kill a male whom you have no distaste for or that
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
you are, in fact, afraid of.
Q. And, of course, though, if you - - You know, I tend to differ with you on that point. Isn’t it true that matricide, killing your mother, is one of the rarest crimes that there is in the homicidal area? I mean, you’re much more likely to - - the murders much more commonly happen in a fashion of a bar fight. You kill someone or you might kill someone in a heat of passion, rage type situation. And - - But matricide does not happen very often. It is not a very common statistical murder.
A. I agree with you that it is not a high statistical murder. I’m not saying that the majority of murders are committed are not stranger-on-stranger murders.
Q. Right. Now, going through some of these people that you interviewed, I think - - Which was the fellow that you interviewed from South- - - was it Southeast Colorcoat? Was it Matt Caulder? A. Matt Caulder was one of the two foreman that had allegedly come into contact with Lucas. And I did interview him, yes, sir.
Q. And the owner of that business. And what was his name? A. John Reeves, Jr.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. Okay. Now - - And there is - - his statement is in here. He painted a fairly nice picture of Ottis Toole for you, didn’t he? A. Essentially he did, yes, sir.
Q. I mean, he has showed you what he felt to be a kind man, a person that he trusted around his family? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And, you know, a person that he apparently - - he apparently liked? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And I think you had a chance to interview Ottis Toole, didn’t you? A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. Ottis Toole was, well, I don’t know. Was he a person that you liked and liked being close to or - - Did he seem like a nice, kind, gentle person to you? A. I would characterize Ottis Toole as being the strangest individual I have ever interviewed.
Q. In fact, Ottis Toole struck - - I’m sure, struck you as - - did he strike you as a person that was a very much - - had a potential for violence and could, in fact, kill people? A. He did not demonstrate that during the interview. The detectives from the Jacksonville
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Sheriff’s office that I worked with tend to believe Ottis Toole was a firebug and state that he - - they feel that he is responsible for several arsons.
Q. And one apparent arson murder or a murder and then burning the house down, that’s the one he is in the penitentiary for life in Florida right now? A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. But nonetheless, your analysis of Mr. Toole was much, much different than what - - What was his name, Mr. Reeves? A. Mr. Reeves.
Q. You didn’t see the same person as he saw? A. Well, I saw an individual who at that time was on death row and has - - it since has been vacated since that time - - in the confines of a stark prison for approximately an hour or so.
Like I say, I characterized him as being very strange in his mannerisms, in his - - in the difficulty to interview him. He didn’t necessarily demonstrate propensity towards violence, but I characterize my interview very much like attempting to take north poles from two magnets and placing them together. He’s very difficult to keep him on center. If you ask him a question, you know, he will answer almost anything else, and it was much difficulty
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
getting back to the question.
Q. Well, you know, like Mr. Reeves said, you know, he had trusted him with his children. I don’t think you probably would hire him as babysitter if you had a chance, would you? A. No, sir, I would not.
Q. The reports that you have put together here and particularly these documents, they are copies, you say, of information - - are they copies of originals that you saw or copies of copies that you saw? A. Some are copies from originals and some are copies of copies.
Q. All right. But as far as, I think, being an investigator with the DA’s office in Harris County, you know about the predicate for getting in business records? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you’re saying that you could predicate these records. They were never kept - - They were not in your care, custody and control when they were made, that you had no personal knowledge of what was being put down on them. In fact, on many of them, even though it says Henry Lucas, you can’t swear under oath that it is this Henry Lucas as
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Compared there may be other people in the United States named Henry Lucas.
Now, sometimes there might be Social Security numbers that you could verify back, but otherwise, I mean, you can’t even be sure that you know absolutely that is the Henry Lucas? A. With the exception of the handwriting analysis returns from the Department of Public Safety laboratory, that’s correct. I do not know - - As you stated, I did not maintain care, custody and control of those records nor did I generate them as a custodian working for, say, the Western Union or Southeast Colorcoat.
Q. Right. And you did not try to predicate these records with the business records predicate, and that’s the reason I asked you. Because, I mean, it would be impossible - -
A. That’s correct.
Q. - - for you to give the proper predicate answers to those records? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Which means that the basic summary of this is the same thing. I mean, it’s all based on either statements and interviews by people or by some of these records that you have accumulated - -
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
That is correct.
Q. - - that were not your records? A. Right.
Q. And while you were testifying, it sometimes seemed as if you had a great deal of personal knowledge about Henry Lucas. In essence, I mean, you really and truly, other than maybe if you have interviewed him some since he has been in custody or whatever, up through June of 1983 you had never heard of Henry Lee Lucas? A. That’s probably correct.
Q. And you had no idea who he was, had no idea or where he was, I mean, based on your own personal knowledge? A. Yes, sir.
Q. I mean, you’re not swearing that he was in Maryland, he was in Michigan; you’re swearing that people told you he was in some place? A. Yes, sir, that is correct. I’m saying that the information I have testified to was told to me in the same fashion. I have not distorted it.
Q. No. And I’m not saying that you have.
A. Correct. And that the various documents, to the best of my knowledge, are documents that do pertain to Lucas. But again, I was not the custodian
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
of these records.
Q. And you’re very familiar with hearsay. You probably have been involved in that, and really what you’re testifying to here is purely hearsay? A. Yes. With the exception of anything that I obtained directly from the individual to be generated directly, that’s correct.
Q. Did you actually have these people in these interviews swear under oath or - -
A. No, sir, they were not sworn under oath. As an investigator and at the time a notary public for the state of Texas, in out-of-state, I collected information as opposed to sworn statements.
Q. So in other words - - And I’m not being critical of you because it probably would be expensive to take a notary public in primarily to have a proper oath sworn to, but these are not sworn statements? A. That’s correct.
Q. Let alone under oath in a courtroom? A. That’s correct.
Q. When you say that you had visited with several law enforcement agencies throughout the United States, how many cases do you think that you actually had gone in and really, let’s say, even had
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
an opportunity to look at their case and look at it real close about what evidence that really had and compare it up very carefully to the confessions that Henry Lucas gave? A. A relatively small number. As I stated earlier, the focus of our investigation was to find the information that would indicate where Lucas was regardless of whether it placed him away from the crime scene or at the crime scene. It was primarily a background type investigation.
The - - A few of the cases, I was familiar with the officers that worked there. I did interview the officers that worked it and was allowed to view their case reports, and in some cases I was not able to obtain them. I did, in fact, talk to some officers that had worked the case who were not the clearing officer, and there was, of course, friction between the officer who cleared the case and the officer who had originally worked it.
Q. So you really, as far as getting a chance - - other than maybe those three cases in McLennan County, which, I think, you might have had an opportunity to really look at, here is what the police have, here is his confession, here is his alibi and put them all out on the table and look at them real carefully to
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
see what was going on, that just really didn’t happen in your-all’s investigation.
There were more cases than those three involved.
Q. Okay.
A. One or possibly - - I talked to the detectives in Florida who initially worked one case in particular at great length.
Q. Which case? Can you recall that one? A. I don’t recall the victim’s name, and it’s one that the Jacksonville Police Department has since rescinded. It involved the abduction of a young lady from a bar that the detective described as a beach group type bar, and she stated that in her opinion it would have been impossible for Lucas or Toole to even communicate with anyone in that bar because it was strictly the muscle shirts, jams and surfboard type people and that if individuals such as Lucas and Toole had entered there, no one would have even talked with them because they were strictly foreigners. And we went into some detail on that.
I have also spoken with the Houston - - Harris County detectives and individuals in the district attorney’s office there about those particular cases.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. Now - - Okay. Go ahead. Tell me the other ones that you say you did. You talked to Jacksonville PD about one particular case. Right? A. Summarized, I think - -
Q. And then you talked to Harris County? A. Let’s back up to Jacksonville, if we might. I talked to Lieutenant Suber, who probably mentioned several cases that he didn’t feel that Lucas had committed, and he explained why he had asked that those cases be removed from the cleared list.
I talked to the actual detective that worked that one case in - - outside of Lancaster, Pennsylvania, Maynard Township, the Lindy Sue Beacher case. I talked to Lieutenant Harvey West who worked that case. And I have talked with several of the officers in Harris County as well as some of the district attorney’s attorneys investigating in Fort Bend County about their case.
Q. And even with - - But even on the Jacksonville PD case, Harris County, the Lancaster, Pennsylvania, case with Lindy Sue Beacher and fort Bend County case, did you actually even in those cases really get out the police reports, the confessions, whether they be videotaped or audiotaped, and the alibi type information and start comparing
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
all of it together? A. In some of those cases, yes, and some of them we did not.
Q. Okay.
A. Specifically the Jacksonville, kind of interestingly in those homicides, I mean, they can clearly put Henry Lucas in Jacksonville, Florida, on the dates of those murders. Correct?
A. They - -
Q. I mean - -
A. I don’t know whether they - - in every case that they can put Lucas in Jacksonville, Florida, on those dates, but generally, particularly if you accept the work records as being accurate, interestingly enough, yes, they put him in that area. Yet after examination of Lucas’ confessions, they have rejected them.
Q. But, I mean, there is not a problem in those cases of Lucas being present in the immediate - - In fact, one of them was within a few blocks of where he lived, where he and Ottis Toole lived? A. Correct.
Q. What did you do on the Fort bend County case?
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Talked primarily with Investigator Metzler and Homer Gregory. I did not see the offense report in that case.
Q. So that’s a case I think he is still under indictment for? A. Yes, sir, it is.
Q. It is still pending. Have you recommended to them to dismiss it or have you - -
A. No, sir, I haven’t. I have explained or given them, made available to them any information that I had, and without recommendation.
Q. And apparently up to this date, they have seen fit to continue on with their prosecution? A. That’s correct.
Q. To keep the indictment pending? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And in spite of the Lucas report coming out, there are still jurisdictions in Texas and Georgia that have cases pending? A. That is correct.
Q. The decision to prosecute on any single case in Texas and in most states rests with the - - with the local prosecutor. Isn’t that correct? A. Yes, sir, that is.
Q. Just like in Texas- - I don’t know. Maybe
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Some states the attorney general of the state brings the prosecution, but in Texas the attorney general does not bring the prosecution of the cases. That is the purview left to the local district attorneys?
Yes, sir.
Q. In Fort Bend, Harris County - -
A. Yes, sir.
Q. - - El Paso County or wherever. Is that correct? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, I think you said there were - - the only two cases where - - Or I’m not sure. I may be mistaken. If I am, please correct me.
But only two cases that you actually could come up with evidence that tended to corroborate Henry Lucas’ confession, those being Frieda - - Becky Powell and Kate Rich.
Yes, sir.
Q. Is that correct? Were you familiar with the case in Kennewick, Washington? A. Yes, sir, I am.
Q. In fact, wasn’t I the one that made you aware of that one? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Wasn’t I the - - Well, I did talk to you
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
about that one?
Yes, sir, we did.
Q. So you were aware of the case in Kennewick where the blood sample that was taken at the scene matches Henry Lucas’ to the exclusion of, what, I think it is, 99.46 percent of the population? A. Yes, sir, I believe that’s correct, leaving about five million people in the - - that’s over the population that could have deposited that blood type at the scene.
Q. But as far as blood evidence goes, that’s about as good as you can ever do? A. That’s pretty good.
Q. So, I mean, there is a corroborating piece of evidence? A. There is a corroborating piece of evidence. However, I don’t believe they have any evidence to put him in Washington state, period.
Q. Are you aware of a case in Virginia, Norfolk, Virginia, with pubic hair samples that match both Ottis Toole and henry Luca? A. No, sir, I’m not.
Q. There is a case of that. And let me see if I can remember the victim’s name. Well, anyway, I can give it to you later if you’re interested.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Yes, sir, I would be, of course.
Q. Additionally, there are cases in the United States, not to many, in which citizens, I guess eyewitnesses, place Henry Lucas in their city at the time of the murder and in close proximity of the scene of the murder. Are you aware of any of those? A. No, I’m not.
Q. Okay. Are you aware of the Marla Sharp case in Provo, Utah, where they have an eyewitness there? A. Yes, sir. Now, my discussions with Provo, Utah, Police Department have not been - - they haven’t indicated to me that was that strong of a witness.
Q. And here in regards to our case in El Paso, you have never had a chance to look at our case, have you? A. No, I have not gone through your entire case file on this.
Q. And you have not had a chance to compare our confessions with the physical evidence in our case and our eyewitnesses in the case? A. That’s correct.
Q. You are aware that we had corroborating evidence in our case, are you not? I mean, as far as - - well, again, as the people tell you? A. Yes.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. And I’m sure that one side will tell you there is no corroborating evidence and the other side will and there is - - and that’s what lawsuits are usually about.
A. That’s correct. I think it’s very important for the court and jury to decide whether that is or is not.
Q. A far as corroborating evidence, the case in El Paso is one of the very few cases where there I even any alleged corroborating evidence, is it not? A. Yes, sir.
Q. To your knowledge? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Probably the only - - I just probably mentioned to you before the four cases in the United States that I’m aware of where either physical evidence or eyewitnesses place Henry Lucas in a - - involved in a case other than through his own confession? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, in regards to talking about Henry Lucas’ alibi in Montaque County back in May of 1983, like you said, there was the camp meeting going on and that camp meeting ended on approximately May 19th, May 20th?
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
I believe that’s correct, yes, sir.
Q. All right. And apparently Henry Lucas - - I mean, are you aware that he had been telling everybody that, “As soon as the camp meeting is over, I’m gone. I’m leaving. If Becky doesn’t come back by the camp meeting, I’m gone. I’m taking off”?
When you talked to all the people, did they give you that general gist of the story? A. Yes, that he was going to leave after that time and, in fact, had been working on his car to get it to a point where he felt like he could get it to go that far. And they said that he said that he was going to go to California and look for her and Kate Rich both.
Q. Right. And apparently, like you aid, he was having a great deal of difficulty getting a job up there? A. No, sir, he was working with Rueben Moore.
Q. Yeah, but they were kind of like, you know, he would say, do you think he could go to the school, like you said, and they said, “Well, it’s okay for you to do your job, Rueben, but get Henry out of here. We don’t want him.”
A. To my knowledge, that is the one incident where Lucas asked to be removed from a job, yes, sir.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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Q. And then I think you mentioned another incident to the defense attorney about some other problem that they didn’t want him on another site or something? A. No, sir. I may have stated that incorrectly. Strap Furniture is probably the one that I mentioned, and it was not that they didn’t want him on the job, they didn’t even know who he was. It was just another case where the owner of the business was able to obtain the date that they paid for the roofing work. There was never any inference that he was asked to be removed from that job. It’s just that one of the owners could recall him being around there.
Q. You remember him talking about Rueben, what, he didn’t have that much work going on at that time or do you remember? A. I don’t recall that he made that statement either way. I just don’t recall that at all.
Q. And for whatever reason, you knew that Henry had said that he was going to get the car fixed, that he was going to leave, and then we have documented and a lot of those documentation, in fact, when I called you-all, I helped you fill in some of the information on where henry Lucas was on certain dates that we had found?
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Yes, sir.
Q. And that was in this - - I was primarily concerned in this late May period of 1983? A. Correct.
Q. We went down through driver’s license, when he, in fact, had got his driver’s license in Montaque County, when he got his car inspection sticker in Montaque County, and all of that seems to indicate, just like you found out from the people up there, henry was leaving, he was getting the car ready to go.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right. And the last thing that he needed to get ready to go, I guess, was the license plates. And do you recall that the date that he was able to - - He didn’t get them himself. I think Rueben or Faye went down and got the license plates for him. That was May 23rd, 1983. Do you recall that?
A. I don’t believe that when we had our conversation that that date had been established yet. I believe that you corrected me on the inspection date in that I had received a different date from sheriff Gammett and you were able to look at the
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
documents themselves and correct me one that date.
Q. Right. And did - - So, in fact, the documents indicate that Henry Lucas was preparing to leave, that the camp meeting was over and that there was nothing really to hold henry Lucas in Montaque County, was there? He could leave at any time he really wanted to once the car was ready. After May 23rd, there was nobody - - there was no arrest warrant for him; he didn’t have to say, did he? A. He was not held to stay, no.
Q. And while, you know, your-all’s report - - And it’s based on Rueben Moore and Faye Moore’s statement that he left on June 4th? A. Yeah.
Q. There was nothing that would have prevented him from leaving on May 24th or May 25th or May 26th, is there? A. I don’t know that. I can’t testify to that. I don’t know if he left on June the 4th why it was that particular date, was he still having trouble with his car, was he still helping Rueben Moore, was he trying to con Rueben Moore out of some more money or what the situation was.
Did Rueben Moore finally relent and give him
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
$100 and send him off to California? That issue came up, as I’m sure you’re aware. And I don’t know that. I simply do not know other than, of course, we have Reverend Moore - - correction - - Jesse Murphy.
Q. With that accident back during the camp meeting, which would have been back probably around the, what was it, the 18th or something like that that accident occurred? A. I don’t recall the date. I recall that it was approximately or possibly the last day, I think, according to Rueben Moore’s statement, that it was - - occurred the last day of the camp meeting and then - -
Q. Which would have made it approximately May 19th, May 20th? A. May 20th, yes, sir.
Q. So in other words, Henry Lucas can be placed there in Montaque County May 19th, May 20th, at least to May 23rd. I mean - - Well. Let’s see. On May 23rd, you have to - - you can’t really get the license plate lady and say that she saw Henry Lucas because it’s Faye Moore. I mean, you have to rely on Faye and Rueben Moore for that piece of information.
Are you aware of or do you know or have in your possession - - and I always requested of your office if you got any information that would put
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Henry Lucas in El Paso, in any place on May 24th, 25th, 26th, 27th, 28th, 29th, 30th, June 1, 2 and 3, and have you come up with any evidence in those time frames other than the testimony of Faye and Rueben Moore? A. I don’t believe so other than I became more keenly aware of the dates involving the money order when - - on Lucas’ trip back to Montaque County.
Q. When he went to Deming? A. Correct.
Q. That would have been probably about the 5th, 6th of June? A. Yes, sir. I don’t have it in front of me. We discussed that date. And I think since that time I have become more - - I have become aware of the exact date as opposed to a time frame in which that could have occurred, but I don’t have the documentation to state on a particular date.
Q. But you’re aware of any documentary evidence that would prove that, you are, that he was in - -
A. That - -
Q. - - that Henry Lucas was in Montaque County on May 20 - - What did I say - - May 24th, 25th, 26th, 27th, 28th, 29th?
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
That’s right. I don’t have a document in my possession that would put him there on those days.
Q. You’re not aware of any? A. No, sir.
Q. Were you aware - - Apparently - - Were you aware that Henry Lucas, he testified here, you know, and he was testifying the last couple of days. He is still not quite finished, but he was testifying for several days here in El Paso. Were you aware of that?
A. Yes, sir, I was aware that he had testified earlier this week.
Q. Now, you had said that your information from talking to Faye and Rueben was that Henry, what, he never left Montaque County, never left there in April or May of ’83 with the exception of, I think, one overnight trip. Is that what you stated? A. I don’t recall specifically stating anything about April at all. I believe I talked about May.
Q. Let’s just say May. Fine. Let’s just say May. One overnight trip in May? A. I believe that is correct, yes, sir.
Q. Yet we heard Henry Lucas testify that he made a trip to - - one over- - - three overnight trips, I guess two of them that apparently Faye and Rueben Moore were unaware of. He mentioned the trip to
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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Dallas, which I think is the one that they are referring to; he mentioned one to Wichita Falls; he mentioned another to Gainesville and - -
I believe - - And again I would have to refresh my memory - - that they may have mentioned those trips, but I don’t know that those were overnight trips. Wichita Falls is not a very long drive from - -
Q. No, it’s a short drive from Montaque, but he had said he had left in the evening, you know, was gone for the evening.
A. Okay. That very well might be. I honestly don’t know that. I don’t recall them - - Nothing sticks out in my mind during their statements to me that he was gone for any extensive period of time. I’m sure he possibly could have left and come back the next morning without their knowledge. They didn’t have a guard posted on him, no.
Q. You would certainly concede to us in the United States today we are highly mobile society, are we not? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Able to move great distances in short periods of time and, in fact, we can show that. I mean, it’s nothing unique about Henry Lucas as
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Compared to anyone else in the United States. You can travel from coast to coast even in an automobile in a couple days. It doesn’t - - You know, if you’re driving.
So - - And, in fact, in this case I think we will show - - Were you aware of the odometer readings on Henry Lucas’ car? Didn’t I make you aware of those? A. Yes, sir, you did.
Q. And those showing that on May 12th of 1983 the odometer had something like, what was it, 3,000-some-odd miles on it and which was actually 103,000-and-some-odd miles on it, and on June 9th when it broke down it had 6,000-some-odd miles? It had over 3,000 miles on it in a period of less than a month, and that’s quite a bit of driving, is it not? A. Well, I consistently put over 2,000 miles on one car and additional miles on other cars in a month’s period, but - - so it would reach - -
Q. And of course - -
A. 3,000 miles.
Q. Of course, when you talked to Faye and Rueben, I’m sure they told you the same story they told me, hey, you know, that car was disabled sitting
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Over there. Henry would work on it, but that car sat there a lot. You know, he wasn’t driving it all over the place. Henry was sitting there at the chicken ranch or the chicken farm. Right? Didn’t they tell you the same thing or did they tell you something different? A. That’s essentially correct.
Q. In other words, he wasn’t driving all over, gallivanting all over Montaque County. They said he drove around a little but not extensively.
A. That is correct. I - -
Q. Until he left on June 4th? A. If I recall, I think that he may have - - I don’t specifically recall whether they stated that he took the car to Lawton, Oklahoma, to the project up there or not.
Q. Okay. But let’s assume here that he didn’t. According to Faye and Rueben, he didn’t drive much. I mean, he didn’t put on more than, you know, two or three or four hundred miles in - - from May 12th until June 4th. Then that would leave him with having to put on, between June 4th and June 9th, an additional, what, about 2500 miles? Now, that is a - - shows that he does have the ability and capability of driving long distances
Page 2536
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
in short periods of time? A. If you assume that he didn’t put any more miles on that car until June the 4th than three or four hundred, that’s correct. I don’t know if he reached California as he stated he was going to and turned around and come back or not. Of course, as we know, the car did break down in New Mexico.
Q. Yeah. And he has gone through the trip that he took and the mileage and how it adds up.
And would you concede the fact that if Henry Lucas did, in fact, commit this murder in El Paso and he has three prior murders, he certainly is a person well deserving of sentence of death? A. Yes, sir. If any individual commits a capital case, that individual, in my mind, is deserving of the statutory penalty and it’s the death sentence.
Q. And with his prior record, he might be much more deserving than others? A. I think that would be speculation, because as we both know, you need to stay within the confines of the law. Deserving of the death sentence probably means different things to different people. But in my mind, very specifically, if any individual commits a capital case and the evidence supports it, then
Page 2537
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
that individual, I guess you could use the word deserving, it’s an appropriate sentence to me, yes.
Q. Okay.
MR. MOODY: No further questions.
MR. PONTON: I have nothing further, Your Honor, other than to re-move for the introduction of the exhibits previously tendered as Defendant’s Exhibits 26.
As the witness stated, he is not the personal records custodian of each of these records, but he did generate those personally during the course of his investigation and was able to identify each of those documents. To subpoena the individual records custodian of each of those 40 ti 50 file folders is something that is within my power to do and something I am willing to do, but I question whether or not the county of El Paso should have to pay for that cost, to have somebody prove up those records by bringing 50 witnesses in when we have one witness here who gathered all these records and has personal knowledge of the contents of all those records and was able to testify from the witness stand that to his knowledge, each of those records is a true and genuine copy of that which they purport to be and has not been altered.
Page 2538
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
And therefore, at this time, rather than having to subpoena 50 people to El Paso and pay for 50 plane tickets and 50 or 100 overnight stays at a local hotel, I move that those documents be admitted at this time.
MR. MOODY: Well, Your Honor, for the purposes of this hearing - - obviously we don’t have the jury here or anything I just wanted the Court to be aware that they are not sworn documents and, you know, that they are not swearing for the truth of them there, particularly in the statements that are made by those witnesses that are saying that Henry Lucas was in Maryland or was in some other place.
I wanted the Court to be aware of that and that I don’t mind the Court considering them. I’m not going to object to their introduction before you, but I wanted you to be aware of that fact.
THE COURT: All right. Well, they will be admitted then, and I am aware of that, that they are not sworn.
MR. PONTON: Thank you, Your Honor. What number was the Lucas report?
THE COURT: 30.
Page 2539
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
MR. PONTON: 30?
MR. MOODY: 30.
THE COURT: Call your next witness.
MR. PONTON: I have another copy of it, Your Honor, from my office that - -
THE COURT: You may be excused. Thank you, sir.
Call your next witness.
MR. PONTON: Okay. Bart Dalton.
Is 30 admitted, Your Honor?
MR. MOODY: Yeah, that’s fine.
THE COURT: Yes, it will be admitted.
Page 2540
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
BART DALTON,
Having been first duly sworn by the Court to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, was examined and testified as follows:
BY MR. PONTON:
Q. State your name, please.
A. My name is Bart Dalton.
Q. How are you employed?
A. I’m the chief deputy and attorney general for the state of Delaware.
Q. Is that the number two man in the attorney general’s office in the state of Delaware? A. Yes, it is.
Q. Is the Delaware attorney general’s office a little different than in Texas? Do you-all have actual local prosecutorial duties as well as statewide civil and criminal functions? A. Yes. We are like only one other state in the Union, Rhode Island, in that we are of such a small size that we have original criminal jurisdiction, so we do everything from traffic tickets to capital murder. And then we have the normal function of the state attorney general, the
Page 2541
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
civil side, representing all the state agencies, the environmental, the health services, whatever.
We have 82 lawyers that work with u, about half in the criminal side, half on the civil side. We do all the appellate work and I have a special investigations unit, so it’s all under one roof in Delaware.
Q. How many lawyers report to you?
A. 81.
Q. So all of them report to you except for your boss? A. That’s right. He is the 82nd - - or 81st, whichever.
Q. Now, as part of your duties as a local prosecutor, did you have occasion to prosecute a certain murder of some note up in Delaware? A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. Which one was that?
A. Robert Hughes.
Q. And who was Robert Hughes accused of murdering? A. His wife, Serita Hughes.
Q. When did this murder take place? A. August 31st, 1976.
Q. And he was convicted of murder at his first
Page 2542
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
trial that you were the prosecutor in. Is that correct? A. Yes, sir. That was in February of 1979.
Q. And that case, that conviction was reversed on a jury argument error? A. Yes, sir, misstatement by a prosecutor at closing argument.
Q. And did the court of appeals make any statement of the sufficiency of the evidence in that appellate decision? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What was that? A. The court ruled that the evidence was sufficient to sustain a verdict.
Q. Now, for the benefit of the Court, tell the Court how renown or what type of case was this? This was a case of widespread statewide publicity and things of that nature?
A. This was probably about one of the most notorious cases we have had in our state. At first blush, it doesn’t sound like it, husband-wife murder, but the defendant was a schoolteacher, well respected in the community. His wife was a nurse. They had two small children. He originally called the police. It was much analogous in our neck of the woods to the
Page 2543
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
jeffrey McDonald case.
Mr. Hughes went out to California without being arrested, became a teacher in a Christian school. And when he was finally arrested for this offense in 1979, a foundation was started, the Truth and Justice Through Robert Hughes, and it’s made The New York Times and The Los Angeles Times and it’s been a pretty notorious case. And in our state, it’s been one of the most celebrated murder cases, in recent times, at least.
Q. He was retried for that murder after his reversal of his first conviction. Is that correct? A. That’s correct.
Q. When was that retrial? A. That retrial was in the summer of 1980. I did not participate in that trial. I was in private practice at the time.
Q. And the verdict? A. Was guilty.
Q. Of murder? A. First degree.
Q. Reversed again?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Trial technicality? A. Yes, sir. One of the jurors had heard about
Page 2544
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
the first trial and had talked to some of the other jurors about the first trial and our supreme court reversed it.
Q. Jury misconduct? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Still sufficient evidence? A. Yes, sir.
Q. He was scheduled to be retried again in the spring of 1985, was he not/ A. Yes, sir, he was.
Q. The spring of 1985, as Robert Hughes was preparing for the third trial. I was back in the attorney general’s office as chief deputy at that time and was handed the case back again. And we were - - in April of ’85 we were called and told that the defense investigator and defendant’s attorney were going down to Texas to talk to Henry Lee Lucas about maybe having committed the murder.
Page 2545
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
And a couple days later, we were presented with a videotape - - a portion of a videotape of a conversation which the defense investigator and the defendant had with Mr. Lucas.
Q. And in that conversation, Henry Lucas essentially confessed to killing Serita Hughes, did he not? A. He confessed to being an accomplice to that murder, yes.
Q. Who was the person that he was an accomplice with? A. Ottis - - well, allegedly, Ottis Toole.
Q. So Henry Lucas confessed to the defense investigator in April of 1985 that he and Ottis Toole had killed Sariti Hughes in August of 1976? A. That’s correct.
Q. Tell the Court what you did to follow up on this confession given to you by Robert Hughes’ defense lawyer.
A. Well, we did what we had done previously. This wasn’t the first time that the defense had tried to bring up another individual maybe having committed the crime. They had implicated a doctor at one point, and someone else, so every time they did that we promised them that we would go out and investigate
Page 2546
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
any information that they gave us. So we decided to do the same thing with henry Lucas.
We were given the full videotape of - - the videotape of the full interrogation and viewed that. After viewing that, we certainly had a healthy degree of skepticism at that point, and during that same time, that next day, I picked up my morning paper and read a wire service story about Henry Lee Lucas, about how a guy name Hugh Aynesworth down in Texas had talked about him maybe not being the murderer that people were saying he was.
So I told my secretary to call down to Dallas to get those original articles, called to Georgetown to make an appointment to see Henry Lee Lucas, called the Tallahassee - - found out where Ottis Toole was, made an appointment to see him in Tallahassee and had my investigator, sergeant Collison, who had been on the case several years, to start investigating the case.
Q. When you called Georgetown, did you talk with the Texas Rangers there?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And they said they had Henry Lee Lucas there, did they? A. Yes, sir, they did, at that time.
Page 2547
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. And did you ask for an appointment? A. Yes.
Q. What did they tell you? A. They originally told us that they would have to get back to us, I believe, for an appointment time, and that we later set an appointment time which was subsequently broken because Mr. Lucas was not in their custody anymore.
Q. Was that because he had gone to McLennan County or Waco to appear before a grand jury investigating whether he had falsely confessed to scores of murders? A. That’s true.
Q. And when you called the Texas Rangers in Georgetown and asked for an appointment again and they told you that Henry Lucas was in Waco, what did they tell you then regarding whether or not you should see Henry Lucas? A. Well, I said I wanted to go - - I said, “Fine. I’ll go see him in Waco.”
And they said, “Well, I don’t want - - I don’t think you should do that. You should wait until he comes back to Georgetown, because you don’t really understand what they are doing to him in Waco.”
And I just told them I would take my chances
Page 2548
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
and went and had an interview in Waco.
Q. Did they imply to you that somebody was doing something wrong to Henry Lucas up in Waco and making him maybe say things that maybe they didn’t think were true or something like that? A. They certainly did - - They certainly implied that they didn’t trust what was going on in Waco.
Q. All right.
A. I just didn’t want to have any part of any type of internal dispute there. I just wanted to go and talk to the man.
Q. You went and talked to Henry Lucas in Waco, didn’t you? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What was the result of that interview? A. The result of that interview? That was after we had interviewed Ottis Toole.
Q. Let’s talk about that so we can keep this in order.
A. Okay.
Q. You and Robert Collison, your chief investigator, went to Tallahassee, Florida, to interview Ottis Toole? A. That is correct.
Q. He was on death row at that time?
Page 2549
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Yes, sir.
Q. Tell the Court about that interview with Ottis Toole. And I remind the Court that you just said Ottis Toole was named by Henry Lucas as killing Serita Hughes.
A. The interview with Toole lasted four or five hours. Finally he said that he had been to Delaware with Henry Lee Lucas, which we knew Henry Lee Lucas had been in the Delaware area, but that he had never killed anyone in that area with Henry Lee Lucas and he doesn’t know if Henry Lee Lucas killed anyone himself. He certainly hadn’t killed anyone. So - - in Delaware. And that was the substance of the conversation after four hours.
Q. And did you ask him when he met Henry Lucas? A. Yes, I did.
Q. What did he say? A. He gave conflicting answers, but he finally said to us that he met Henry Lee Lucas in February of 1978 or 1979. I get my numbers mixed up. I think 1978.
Q. ’79, perhaps, but - -
A. Yes.
Q. What do you remember?
A. It was on the church steps in the
Page 2550
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Tallahassee area near Mr. Toole’s mother’s house, which was completely consistent with other evidence we had obtained at that time. And I do believe it was ’79, now that you mention it.
Q. You were able to follow up that information and confirm to your own satisfaction that Henry Lucas never met Ottis Toole until February of 1979, didn’t you? A. Yes, we are convinced of that.
Q. Then you went to see Henry Lucas in Waco? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Tell the Court about that interview with Henry Lucas in Waco.
A. We asked Henry Lucas whether he had committed the crime. And we had advised him that we weren’t there to clear cases or not clear cases. We were just there to find out the truth.
He said that he had not committed the crime in Delaware and he said that he had gained the information through other sources, the defense attorney, the defense investigator, conversations and reports. He mentioned that he had taken the case, as he puts it, because he had been - - Sister Clemmie had been getting some pressure from the Hughes family.
Q. The Hughes family were quite religious,
Page 2551
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
quite Christian in their beliefs. Is that correct? A. Yes, so they stated.
Q. And Sister Clemmie was a Christian layworker there and a friend of henry Lucas’. Is that correct? A. That is correct.
Q. And did the Hughes family play upon Henry - - I mean, Sister Clemmie’s Christian beliefs to try to get her to get henry to perhaps cooperate in their investigation? A. Oh, absolutely. They cut - - Mr. Hughes, Sr., the father of the defendant through a church member got in touch with Sister Clemmie. And through the church they got together and Mr. Hughes, Sr., told Sister Clemmie that, “Look, my son is a good Christian boy. He has got two kids. They lost his wife and they say that, you know, that he murdered his wife and he didn’t do it, and I want you to know that” - - I believe without mentioning the other trials, but I’m not sure of that - - “That if Henry could possibly help this good Christian man out, we should sure appreciate it,” and that kind of pressure, writing letters, sending postcards to him.
We have these postcards saying derogatory things about the prosecutor, these types of - - this type of pressure, through letters and through
Page 2552
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Conversations on Clemmie and then on Mr. Lucas himself, “Please take this case so our Christian brother won’t have to sit in jail where he doesn’t belong,” was the pressure that was given.
And that’s what Mr. Lucas told us, and it was certainly corroborated by our conversations with Sister Clemmie, our conversations with the Waco investigators, our documents which we had which were letters and postcards from the Hughes family and from Mr. Hughes to Mr. Lucas and to Sister Clemmie. And the conclusion was inescapable.
Q. What was that conclusion? A. That Henry Lee Lucas played absolutely no part in the death of Serita Hughes.
Q. Did you and your agency do some investigation into the whereabouts of Henry Lee Lucas in August of 1976?
A. Yes, we did.
Q. Did you find out whether or not he was even in Delaware where he could have committed that murder?
A. Henry Lee Lucas was in northeastern Maryland. Northeastern Maryland is very close to Delaware. In fact, it borders it. Now, he was in different areas. And if you can say could he possibly - - This isn’t the situation where you know Mr. Lucas may have been
Page 2553
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
In Florida and you’re talking about Arkansas. This is a situation where he was close enough and we can’t say he wasn’t close enough.
But we searched further and what was more interesting is what kind of lifestyle and what was he doing during that time. Now, we are talking about trying to investigate something nine years back and saying, you know, where were you on August 31, 1976, and we are in May of 1985.
But what we were able to put together, especially through Sergeant Collison was able to put together was how Mr. Lucas was living and where he was and whose company he was keeping. And it was certainly terribly inconsistent with someone going out and committing a murder in Milford, Delaware, at the time.
Q. And, in fact, he was married at the time? A. Yes.
Q. His wife said she saw him every day? A. Every night and every day.
Q. Always in her sight? A. Yes. Or - - Always in her sight every night, in the sight of other people in the family, and certainly not in the sight of Ottis Toole, who he wouldn’t meet for another three years.
Page 2554
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. You came to the conclusion that Henry Lucas didn’t kill Serita Hughes? A. Yes, I did.
Q. Did you take that information back to Delaware with you? A. Yes. I called the defense attorney up and told him that we would be proceeding to trial against Robert Hughes and if he wished, we would be more than - - we would try to help him as best we could to get Henry Lee Lucas up to testify for him.
Q. After you made that offer to the defense attorney, please tell the Court the final result of the third and final trial of Robert Hughes for killing his wife.
A. We offered Robert Hughes a manslaughter plea in 1978. He rejected it and we took him to trial and he was found guilty.
We offered him a manslaughter plea in 1980. He rejected it and we took him to trial and convicted him.
We offered him a manslaughter plea in 1985, and he took it. He pled guilty and in the colloquy the Court asked him, “Did you, on August 31st, 1976, strangle your wife?” And he said, “Yes, sir, I did.”
Q. How many years did the judge give him?
Page 2555
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Give him the maximum period of time under our law for manslaughter. That’s 30 years.
Q. He is serving that sentence right now, isn’t he? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was this the very last confession that Henry Lucas gave before he left the custody of the Texas Rangers and went to Waco? A. It is my understanding that that is the case.
MR. PONTON: Pass the witness.
Your Honor, with the Court’s permission, he has an investigator that came down. They both need to go back. I don’t think his investigator information would be more than five minutes.
THE COURT: Okay.
MR. PONTON: Judge, with the Court’s permission, I want to call one other witness for about five minutes is all I have.
THE COURT: Go ahead, Mr. Moody.
MR. MOODY: Thank you.
BY MR. MOODY:
Q. Now, Mr. Dalton, the case that you were involved in, it was not the Texas Rangers or any
Page 2556
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Local law enforcement people or anybody like that that gave Henry Lucas the information in this case or had any wrongdoing in it, is there? A. I wouldn’t want to quite go that far in that statement. There was information transferred to the people that Henry Lee Lucas was in custody with, and that information was gotten to Henry Lee Lucas and it could have only gotten to him through certain sources who were his custodians. I can’t point fingers as to who they were, but that information got there. I know that. How it got there, I’m not sure.
Q. Well, his defense attorney and defense investigator got there. Right? A. Through the people who Henry Lee Lucas was in custody of.
Q. And it could have come through, what, now, of course, Sister Clemmie was involved in this one. She is the one that pressured him into taking this case? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And the defense - - Let’s see. First of all, it was the - - what you called the - - what was it? I guess they were people that called themselves Christians out there in California that - - this Christian movement or something? Was that it?
Page 2557
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
No. I said that’s what they called themselves without meaning anything disparaging.
Q. Yeah. And that they had been putting pressure on Sister Clemmie to put pressure on Henry Lucas to confess to this case?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And then apparently that either Sister Clemmie realized and Henry Lee Lucas realized that this was a false case, but they were going to confess to it so that they could get off this Christian brother of theirs? A. I think that’s a fair reflection of what happened, yes.
Q. And the defense attorneys - - Not the attorneys but let’s say the defense team or something at least played along with this particular scenario? A. Yes, sir.
Q. So the Texas Rangers never carried this as a case that they said was cleared, did they? A. Frankly, I don’t know. I know we have an affidavit that has been filed in the case - - that was filed in the case along with the bail motion after this tape became known, and in that bail motion, the attorney throughout the affidavit states that a ranger named Sergeant Prince, I believe his name was,
Page 2558
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
that he talked to Henry about the case and Henry told him that he did it and he believed that Henry did it and that there was other statements in that affidavit that - - from Prince that Prince believes that he did it, that Henry wasn’t lying and statements such as that.
So they were confirmed in - - they were in court documents in Delaware to - -
Q. Filed - -
A. - - to post our bail motion.
Q. Filed. But that’s what the defense attorney who was involved in this fraud was saying that Prince said? A. That is what the defense attorney said was said. Without commenting on whether the defense attorney was involved in a fraud, I think not.
Q. But, of course, the case was obviously - - you’re obviously saying the case was fraud, right, the case itself? I mean, the defense was fraud?
A. The confession was bogus.
Q. Now, in regard to your interview of henry Lucas, you finally got to interview him where? A. In the McLennan County District Attorney’s office in Waco.
Q. And did he verify the fact with you that
Page 2559
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Sister Clemmie had pressured him to take this case? A. He felt pressure from Sister Clemmie, yes. He verified that, yeah.
Q. Who allowed you to speak to them there in Waco? A. Initially his attorney, Guy Cox, and we were granted use of the facilities, I’m sure, by the district attorney.
Q. Okay.
MR. MOODY: No further questions.
MR. PONTON: Just one more question, Mr. Dalton.
MY MR. PONTON:
Q. When you interviewed - - When you interviewed Henry Lucas in April of 1985, were any Texas Rangers present? A. No, sir.
Q. Did you ever have any followup conversations with the Texas Rangers? A. I don’t believe I had any followup conversations. I received a letter, but not any followup conversations.
Q. Did you ever have any conversations with
Page 2560
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Them between the time that you received the tape from the defense lawyers and the time that you talked to Henry Lucas? A. Yes, the conversation which I have mentioned before.
Q. It was Bob Prince?
A. I believe it was.
Q. And did you tell him that Henry Lucas had confessed to committing a crime with Ottis Toole? A. Yes, we discussed that. He was certainly aware of it.
Q. Did you tell him that Henry Lucas had confessed to committing this crime with Ottis Toole in August of 1976? A. Yes, I believe I did.
Q. And in April of 1985 when you discussed that with Texas Ranger Sergeant Bobby Prince, did he tell you that the Texas Rangers had information at that time that Henry Lucas never met Ottis Toole until February of 1979?
A. No.
MR. PONTON: No further questions, Your Honor.
MR. MOODY: Nothing further.
THE COURT: Thank you.
Page 2561
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Thank you,Your Honor.
THE COURT: Call your next witness.
Mr. Dalton, you mentioned an affidavit. That affidavit was an affidavit made by the attorney for this Mr. Hughes?
Yes, sir, it was.
THE COURT: Oh, okay. Thank you.
Who is this gentleman?
MR. PONTON: Please state your name to the Court.
Robert H. Collison.
MR. PONTON: C O L L I S O N.
THE COURT: Mr. Collison, would you please raise your right hand, sir?
ROBERT H. COLLISON,
Having been first duly sworn by the court to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, was examined and testified as follows:
BY MR. PONTON:
Q. Your name is Robert Collison.
A. That is correct.
Q. How are you employed?
Page 2562
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
I’m employed as a detective sergeant with the Delaware state police.
Q. How long have you been so employed? A. Since - - With the Delaware state police since February 16, 1968.
Q. How long have you been in law enforcement? A. Since January 1, 1963.
Q. In 1976 did you have occasion to investigate the death of Serita Hughes? A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. And have you been investigating that case since 1976 until the third and final trial of Robert Hughes? A. Yes, sir, I did. That case concluded December 30th, 1985.
Q. You were the primary investigator in that case? A. Yes, sir, I was.
Q. And your investigation uncovered enough evidence to charge Mr. Hughes with that crime in 1979?
A. Yes, sir, that is correct.
Q. And after two reversals on trial error, did there come a time when his defense attorney and investigator brought to your office a tape where henry Lucas confessed to killing Serita Hughes?
Page 2563
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Well, it didn’t come to my office. I was informed that that tape existed, and I was invited to a meeting at the attorney general’s office with Mr. Dalton and Mr. Overly and reviewed that tape, yes.
Q. Did Mr. Dalton request that you undertake an investigation into Mr. Lucas’ whereabouts in 1976? A. Yes.
Q. And did you do so? A. I did.
Q. And what did your investigation uncover regarding Mr. Lucas’ whereabouts in 1976?
A. The investigation indicated to me that Mr. Lucas was in and around Port Deposit, Maryland, northeast Maryland, Elkton, Maryland, daily and during the evenings the period of time in which I was interested, which was August of 1976.
Q. And did you find out that Mr. Lucas generally lived in that area from his release from prison in August of ’75 until late in 1977?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And then did you find out - - did you go to interview Ottis Toole? A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. Was that with Bart Dalton? A. That is correct.
Page 2564
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. And based on that interview with Ottis Toole, please tell the Court the result of whether or not Ottis Toole said he had killed Serita Hughes the way that Henry Lucas claimed.
A. Ottis Toole was interviewed. I think the interview took about four hours. He would tell us that he killed 1,000 people. 600 people, down to no people and back to 600 people and - - but never could give us anything about killing Serita Ann Hughes, where it occurred. He said he was in places where I knew he wasn’t, and I really didn’t get an awful lot from Ottis Toole.
Q. Did you find out - - Did you ask him when he met Henry Lucas? A. Yes, I did.
Q. And what was the conclusion of that? A. The conclusion of that was that it was my opinion that Henry Lucas and Ottis Toole met on the church steps in Jacksonville, Florida, on or about February 9 or 10, 1979.
Q. Your murder happened in ’76?
A. That is correct.
Q. Prior to interviewing Ottis Toole in Tallahassee, had you engaged in any conversations with the Texas Rangers in Texas to try to set up an
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
interview with Henry Lucas? A. I had not, no.
Q. Bart Dalton?
A. Mr. Dalton had taken care of all those arrangements.
Q. Had you ever been informed by anybody from Texas that Ottis and Henry never met until February of ’79?
A. No, I had not.
Q. Was that something that was new to you when you finally tracked that information down? A. Yes. During the course of my investigation, it was becoming apparent from several sources that they had not met until ’79. I found that a bit surprising. I really wondered why we were doing this if they, in fact, hadn’t met until ’79.
Q. The Texas Rangers didn’t tell you in April of ’85 that they knew long prior to that time that Henry Lucas and Ottis Toole hadn’t met until that time, did they? A. No, they did not.
Q. You went to interview Henry Lucas with Bart Dalton in Waco?
A. Yes, sir, we did.
Q. And based on that interview, Henry Lucas
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
recanted that confession to killing Serita Hughes?
Yes, he did.
Q. And you were able to confirm his recantation based upon your followup investigation into his whereabouts in northeast Maryland, weren’t you? A. Yes.
Q. And what was your conclusion as to his involvement in the death of Serita Hughes? A. My conclusions was and continues to be that he had nothing at all to do with the death of Serita Ann Hughes.
Q. And based on your personal investigation into his whereabouts in the period from 1975 through the end of ’77 when he left Maryland, are you convinced that he stayed there in that northeast Maryland area that whole period of time?
A. I am. I’m convinced that he was there with the exception of one time when he want to Rhode Island, one time when he went to Virginia and another time when he went to Texas. And the identity of people who accompanied him were available and it was never Ottis Toole.
Q. What would be the end of the time period in which you were personally involved in tracking down the alibi whereabouts of Henry Lucas?
Page 2567
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
I was really only interested in a month, six weeks, two months preceding the death of Serita Ann Hughes.
You see, the tape that I viewed by - - the interview with Mr. Lucas by Mr. Street and the defense investigator indicated that he had been in the Milford area a number of times and was, in fact, working there roofing in the neighborhood where this murder that I was investigating had occurred. I was interested in finding out if, in fact, he was doing any work in that area, if he had ever done any work in that area, if he had ever been to that area.
And I became convinced that during the months preceding that homicide and the months succeeding or after that homicide that Ottis Toole just was not in Milford, Delaware.
Q. Nor was Henry Lucas? A. I’m sorry. Neither of them, no.
Q. Regarding that Ottis Toole interview in Tallahassee, did he try to talk to you about working on a mushroom farm? A. Yes, he did.
Q. Tell the Court about Ottis Toole’s description of life on a mushroom farm, as a judge of your assessment of his credibility.
Page 2568
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Well, when I went into the interview with Ottis Toole, prior to going to the interview I asked the officer who escorted me to the interview room, “Do you know when these people met, these two people met?”
And he gave me a date, and I went in. And he told me, I believe, it was 1979. I went in and sat down with Ottis Toole and I said, “When did you two meet?” He starts off by telling me about a meeting that took place either in Pittsburg or Michigan or on the riverbanks of Port Deposit, Maryland, and so - - that it may have occurred in ’75, ’76, any - - he really wasn’t sure of a time.
I was becoming concerned with that, and I asked him to describe the area of Port Deposit, Maryland, where they had met. He gave me a description that just didn’t match Port Deposit, Maryland, at all. Port Deposit is a very small town, not much more than a crossroads. So I asked about the size of it, and he says, “It’s a fair-sized town.”
“How about any comparison to Jacksonville, Florida?”
“No, not as big as Jacksonville.”
“Well, how about the size of Tallahassee?
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
“Yeah, about the size of Tallahassee.”
So I went from that. And during the course of the interview, there had been some indication that he had said that they had worked on a mushroom farm up near Port Deposit, the Elkton area. Actually, it’s Avondale, but it’s very near those other towns.
And I asked him to describe the mushroom farm and he said, “Well, it’s just a - - just like a farm.” I said, “Well, describe it. How would you describe a mushroom farm? How do you grow mushrooms?” because he said he had worked on one.
He said, “Well, you know, it’s a big field where you plant mushrooms.” I’m not an expert on mushroom farms, but I live about 45 miles from where they raise mushrooms and that’s not the way you grow mushrooms.
Q. You don’t attach any credibility at all to Ottis Toole, do you? A. None whatsoever.
Q. And your investigation did, however, unturn that Henry Lucas did work in a mushroom farm up there during that period of time, didn’t he? A. Yes, he did.
Q. Based on your investigation of Henry Lucas’
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
whereabouts in ’75, ’77, would it be your opinion that if Henry Lucas confessed to any murder outside of that area during that period of time that it’s unlikely that he was involved in such a murder? A. I would agree with your statement that it’s unlikely that he committed any crimes outside of that area between 1975 and 1977.
MR. PONTON: Pass the witness.
BY MR. MOODY:
Q. However, you’re not saying that Henry Lucas, based in what you know of him, is not capable of committing several murders, are you?
A. No, sir. I’m not saying that he is not capable of committing murders.
Q. Okay. In fact, if you had to have a belief on that subject, you would believe that he probably has committed several murders, maybe not hundreds?
A. No, I wouldn’t agree.
Q. How many do you think he would? Do you have any idea? A. I really have no idea, no.
Q. You have no idea if he committed the murder here in El Paso?
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
None whatsoever.
Q. You don’t know anything about this case? A. No, sir.
Q. Wouldn’t venture on opinion on this case? A. No, sir.
MR. MOODY: No further questions.
THE COURT: Thank you, Officer.
Now, I’m sorry about this other. You tell your friend or - -
MR. PONTON: That’s fine, Your Honor.
THE COURT: - - next witness we will get at him first thing in the morning. Let me suggest this to you. How long do you this his - - he might be?
MR. PONTON: Mr. Aynesworth? He won’t be all that long. I would say that his testimony wouldn’t be over 30 or 45 minutes. Cross would be - - What do you estimate?
THE COURT: Well, the reason for me asking that question, Mr. Ponton, you have other witnesses waiting. I wouldn’t mind starting earlier.
MR. PONTON: I’ll be happy to start whenever the Court wishes.
THE COURT: If you thing you can get rid of some of these witnesses because I have got other - - at 1:00 I have got other things that I’m doing.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
MR. PONTON: I understand. I’ll be glad - - I would welcome the opportunity to start earlier if the Court pleases, but whatever the Court wishes.
THE COURT: Well, how many witnesses do you have here?
MR. PONTON: I have got about six. I have got more that I can get through in the morning, but if I started earlier, I would be able to get rid of the ones that have to leave.
THE COURT: Well, so you want to start - - or try to start around 8:15?
MR. PONTON: That would be fine with me, Your Honor, if it’s all right with the state.
THE COURT: Mr. Moody, what do you - - how do you feel about it? MR. MOODY: That’s fine, Your Honor.
THE COURT: You probably feel like I do. You really don’t want to start but - - that’s the way I feel. I probably shouldn’t say that, but I do feel that way. I don’t want - -
(An evening recess was taken.)
Page 2573
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
IN THE DISTRICT OF EL PASCO COUNTY, TEXAS
THE STATE OF TEXAS )
)
VS. ) COUSE NO. 43314-120
)
HENRY LEE LUCAS
Volume of
Heard on
October 3, 1986
Page 2574
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Page 2575
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
For the State: WILLIAM MOODY
First Assistant District Attorney
City-county Building
El Paso, TX 79901
RICHARD JEWKES
Assistant District Attorney
City-county Building
El Paso, TX 79901
CAROL PENNOCK
Assistant District Attorney
City-county Building
For the Defendant: ROD PONTON
Attorney at Law
Suite 505
Caples Building
El Paso, TX 79901
Doris Sipes
Attorney at Law
1011 North Mesa
El Paso, TX 79901
Page 2576
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
WITNESSES: PAGE
HUGH AYNESWORTH
Direct Examination by Mr. Ponton 2581
Cross-Examination by Mr. Moody 2616
Redirect Examination by Mr. Ponton 2656
Recross-Examination by Mr. Moody 2660
JAMES LANG
Direct Examination by Mr. Ponton 2663
Cross-Examination by Mr. Moody 2676
ROBERT J. CONATSER
Direct Examination by Mr. Ponton 2687
Cross-Examination by Mr. Moody 2696
FRAN DIXON
Direct Examination by Mr. Ponton 2698
Cross-Examination by Mr. Moody 2718
RICHARD G. MOBLEY
Direct Examination by Mr. Ponton 2725
Page 2577
WITNESSES: PAGE
HUGH AYNESWORTH
Direct Examination by Mr. Ponton 2581
Cross-Examination by Mr. Moody 2616
Redirect Examination by Mr. Ponton 2656
Recross-Examination by Mr. Moody 2660
ROBERT J. CONATSER
Direct Examination by Mr. Ponton 2687
Cross-Examination by Mr. Moody 2696
FRAN DIXON
Direct Examination by Mr. Ponton 2698
Cross-Examination by Mr. Moody 2718
JAMES LANG
Direct Examination by Mr. Ponton 2663
Cross-Examination by Mr. Moody 2676
RICHARD G. MOBLEY
Direct Examination by Mr. Ponton 2725
Page 2578
EXHIBIT DESCRIPTION MARKED IDENTIFIED OFFERED REC’D
D-29 Letter 2600 2603 2603
D-31 Flyer 2688 2689
D-32 Report 2715 2715 2723 2724
D-33 Report 2732 2732
Page 2579
IN THE DISTRICT OF EL PASO COUNT, TEXAS
THE STATE OF TEXAS )
)
Vs. ) CAUSE NO. 43314-120
)
HENRY LEE LUCAS )
BE IT REMEMBERED that on the 3rd day of October, 1986, beginning at 8:25 a.m., came on to be heard the continuation of pretrial motions in the above styled and numbered cause, before the HONORABLE BRUNSON MOORE, Judge Presiding in and for the 120th Judicial District Court, and that the same was reported by Meryl Wersinger, Certified Shorthand Reporter and Notary Public in and for the County Court at Law Number Four, El Paso County, Texas, and that the following proceedings were had as follows, to-wit:
Page 2580
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL REPORTER
MR. PONTON: This witness has not been sworn, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Oh, I’m sorry. Raise your right hand, please.
There is water there, and if you would like to bring your coffee in, bring it on in. It’s early.
The gentleman just brought me some. Thank you very much.
THE COURT: All right.
HUGE G. AYNESWORTH,
Having been first duly sworn by the Court to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, was examined and testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMNATION
BY MR. PONTON:
Q. Please state your name.
A. My name is Hugh G. Aynesworth.
Q. How are you employed?
A. I’m employed as an investigative reporter for the Dallas Times Herald.
Q. How long have you been an investigative reporter?
A. For probably 25 years of the 37 that I have
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
been a reporter.
Q. Please briefly tell me some of the awards you have received as an investigative journalist.
A. Oh, I’ve won probably about 70 different state, regional, national awards, from the Headliners to the - - just, you know all kinds of investigative awards for various journalism.
Q. The Headliners Club in Texas is the journalist’s honor society in Texas, is it not, or the - -
A. Well, it’s the top Texas award, yes.
Q. And you won that this year for Lucas stories, didn’t you? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You have been a finalist for the Pulitzer Prize? A. I have been a finalist four times in the Pulitzers.
Q. That’s one of the top three persons in the running for that prize? A. That’s right. They have hundreds of entries and they narrow it down to three.
Q. You have authored books? A. Book.
Q. The one here on Mr. Moody’s desk, The Only
Page 2582
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
Living Witness, by you and - -
Yes.
Q. - - Stephen Michaud on the Ted Bundy serial killing spree?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, you’re familiar with Henry Lee Lucas who sits here in the courtroom?
A. Yes, I am.
Q. When did Henry Lucas first come to your attention? A. First came to my attention in, oh, June 11th or 12th of 1983.
Q. Right after his arrest in Montaque County north of Dallas? A. That’s correct.
Q. Shortly after that he - - news reports came out that he confessed to killing 100 people? A. Yes, I’m aware - -
Q. On or about the 15th of 16th of - -
A. I don’t recall when, but shortly that, yes.
Q. Shortly after that. And then after that the news reports began to balloon and soon after that it was 360 people later on that year? A. No, actually, it didn’t happen that way. It was 100 for a long time, and the first that it was
Page 2583
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
360 was when he was tied on a capital case in April of 1984. But up until that time publicly - - it was publicly only 100 or so.
Q. Okay. At first did you thing that Henry Lucas might be a more prolific serial killer than Ted Bundy? A. I didn’t know. When I first heard 100, I didn’t believe it because I had never met Mr. Lucas, but I knew that he was not an educated man. I knew that he wasn’t a wealthy man. I knew that - - I just thought it very very unlikely that anyone could kill 100 people - -
Q. Why is that? Without getting caught? A. Without getting caught, right.
Q. If you killed 100 people, there would be a witness on at least a few of those crimes to maybe aid in the apprehension of the suspect? A. Well, we have a breakdown in law enforcement in this nation, but law enforcement per se is pretty good. I just don’t think anybody could kill 100 people and not get caught.
Q. When did you first start to personally investigate Henry Lucas? A. That came shortly after I met Mr. Lucas in October of ’83.
Page 2584
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
Q. By that time, had he - - was it still publicly pronounced that he had killed about 100 people? A. Yes.
Q. At that time were some of those dates and victims’ names and locations of those crimes being aired in the news media? A. I don’t recall. There was some that had been made public because he had pled or he had been indicted, but I don’t think generally - - Later I learned that he gave Officer Ryan 77 names, but those were not public for a long time.
Q. The 77 names of victims he supposedly killed and actually those crimes never even occurred? A. I can’t say. I know that some of them didn’t.
Q. And then when did you first begin to determine that Henry Lucas may have been confessing to crimes he could not have committed? A. Well, the first night I met him he told me he had only done three.
Q. Okay.
A. And I didn’t necessarily believe him at that time, but I later checked on his whereabouts and within a month I knew that some of the grounds were
Page 2585
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Not proper.
Q. At your first meeting with him in October of 1983, did he tell you some of his actual whereabouts in the eight-year period of time he was free from prison? A. I don’t think he did on the first occasion, but within a week or so I met with him two more times and we - - I told him that if he only did three that there was a great disparity here that he better start telling me where he really was. At that point he started telling me some of the places that he really was, and I started checking.
Q. And within a month after you were able to determine through some documentation and some interviews where he actually had been for much of that time? A. Not for much. It took much longer than that, but within a month I knew of some of the indictments that were very tenuous.
Q. In other words, within a month you knew there was documentation or witnesses to place Henry Lucas in places other than the crime scenes, other than where the crimes occurred for which he had been indicted? A. Yes, I did.
Page 2586
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. At approximately this time did you come in contact with the parents of a victim from Lubbock? A. No, I didn’t meet the Lemones for at least eight months, ten months, something like that.
Q. After ’83? A. Yes.
Q. After that October meeting? A. I met them when they called me sometime around September of ’84.
Q. When you met Henry Lucas and he started telling you where he had actually had been, did he tell you that the DPS or the Texas Rangers were also in possession of some of that information? A. He kept telling me that, “They know I’m making this up. They know I’m making some of this up.” But he didn’t specify who - - or who knew, whether it was Sheriff Boutwell or Mr. Prince.
And actually, you see, when I first met Henry, there was no task force. I was with him for a month or so before that.
Q. The task force was formed in late November of ’83 or somewhere around there? A. November 25th, as I recall.
Q. When Henry Lucas was referring to they as being the persons that he knew had knowledge that he
Page 2587
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
was giving false confessions, was the implication that they would include the people who were keeping him?
A. The implication was that it was Sheriff Boutwell, although I don’t think that he named him. But he was very close to Sheriff Boutwell in those days, and Officer Ryan.
Q. Now, please tell me briefly a little bit more of what youp id in the next few months to follow up on Henry Lucas’ whereabouts.
A. Well, when the - - when Sheriff Boutwell took him on November 10th, of 1983 after the conviction in Denton, took him to Georgetown, and then the task force was formed within a week or two, two weeks after that.
Q. That was at Sheriff Boutwell’s request, wasn’t it? A. It was. He showed me his letter where he wrote requesting that. Then I contacted Sheriff Boutwell and explained to him that I had signed a book contract with Mr. Lucas and that I’d like to come down and start talking with Mr. Lucas.
Q. And? A. And he was very cordial. He said he was very busy, they had to go to Florida and they had to
Page 2588
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
go a lot of places, but pretty soon we worked it out and I started coming down to see Henry.
Q. That was with the permission of Sheriff Boutwell and later with Bobby Prince, the sergeant? A. Right.
Q. And as Henry would tell you where he had actually lived, would you follow up on some of that and try to ascertain if that was - -
A. I did. And at this time - - When I first talked to Henry, I didn’t have a book contract, so I was just - - I thought if, in fact, this man has only done three crimes as he said, this is a tremendous story and somebody is putting a lot of crimes on him. If, in fact, he has done 50 or 100 that that’s an interesting thing, too, so either way it was of interest and challenge to me to do it.
I then went and got a book contract from a Dallas publishing company. Then I started interviewing at great length, because I didn’t - - you know, that was - - I was hopeful of having some money coming forth out if this book contract and I was willing to devote the next year or two to it.
Very soon the book company went bankrupt. In fact, they gave me $20,000 in hot checks, and then - - so that wiped that out.
Page 2589
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
But I traveled all over the place at my own expense pretty much. I went to Florida - - Of course, I didn’t do that at my own expense. I went there and the state paid for that. But I went to Arkansas, I went to Louisiana, I went to Oklahoma in those early days.
Now, it was very easy to get with Mr. Lucas in the early days, but then once Mr. Prince and Mr. Boutwell found out what I was doing, then I was sort of not too welcome anymore and then the pressures began for the next few months.
Q. When you say they found out what you were doing, are you referring to the fact that you were going around and ascertaining and documenting Henry Lucas’ actual locations as opposed to these fake locations where was confessing to these bogus crimes, that he wasn’t confessing to the real crimes?
A. In essence, that’s what it was. I went to Florida, for instance, where he had cashed a check allegedly on the day after the orange socks killing. Nobody had ever made an attempt to talk to the man that cashed his check a few hours after the murder. And I - -
Q. Is that Mr. Gasky at the grocery store? A. That’s right.
Page 2590
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. And this was after Henry Lucas was indicted for capital murder?
A. Well, a long time afterwards. It was just a few weeks before the trial.
Q. And was this information shared by you with the task force? A. I talked to Sheriff Boutwell about it. He said, “Well, Hugh, you just don’t understand.” He said, “We have investigated this thing.” At that same time I told him that I thought the work records were probably legitimate that he had been telling them were not.
Q. And these work records that Sheriff Boutwell had gotten Henry to confess to paying off his foreman so that these records would be altered? A. I didn’t know that at the time, the extent of it. Lucas told me that he had done this, but I didn’t, you know, have access to it at that time.
Q. In that confession to Boutwell on those work records, even though Henry said he paid off the foreman to do that did you find out that a followup investigation revealed no evidence of that? A. Well, I think we - - I certainly interviewed the foreman - - the two foremen that worked with Mr. Lucas that week.
Page 2591
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. Yes.
A. And both of them denied anything of that sort. I interviewed other people that were on the job and they denied that there was ever any payoff situation or anything like that.
And I came back and told Sheriff Boutwell that and he just said, “Hugh, you just don’t understand. After all this is over, I’ll share all of it with you. But believe me, we have investigated this case.”
Q. And at the time you had gone up there and checked those - - cashing of that check and things like that, had Sheriff Boutwell or had Bobby Prince investigated that case there? A. I don’t know whether the rangers - - I think Clayton Smith went over there and I think some of the others in December. I think maybe they talked to one of the foreman. They did not talk to the other foreman and they did not talk to the man that cashed the check and they did not talk to the fellow workers on the job, to my knowledge.
Q. So their investigation into that confession of Henry’s about payoffs were - - was perfunctory. Would you describe it that way? A. I wouldn’t even describe it as perfunctory.
Page 2592
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
I thought it was ridiculous. And that was the first time when I stopped believing them, because I thought here they were going to put a man to death and they hadn’t touched nearly all the bases and they had the names and addresses of the people to contact. But I got that feeling that they really didn’t want to know.
Q. They didn’t want to know the truth? A. They didn’t want to know the truth.
Q. And you gave them those names and addresses and locations of witnesses, didn’t you? A. They had them before I mentioned them.
Q. And the orange socks trial proceeded onward in February of ’84 shortly after that, and Henry Lucas received the death penalty, didn’t he? A. Yes.
Q. Now, you say you started to have problems with Sergeant Prince and Sheriff Boutwell. Was there a time before you had these problems when they would seek your advice as to their own book contracts and as to their own publishing quotes? A. Well, they didn’t exactly seek my advice, but they were quite concerned with book contracts and movies and things of that sort. And I received several calls whether I would talk to them personally or they would have Henry call me with certain things
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
about book contracts.
See, they knew I had a book contract with Mr. Lucas. And each of them had a friend or an author come in, and there were several discussions about, “Will you give up? Will you not sue us?” See, I made an attempt when they tried to shove me out in April - -
Q. Of ’84? A. ’84. I had made a public statement that there was no way Henry Lucas could have done the capital murder case, that the evidence was very, very strong and that there was no evidence on the other side except a contrived four- or five-part, four- or five chance confession that he made.
Q. Yes.
A. From that day on - - Mr. Boutwell called me the next day and said, “Henry doesn’t want to see you anymore. He thinks you’re anti-law enforcement and just he doesn’t want to see you.”
And I said, “I’m coming down tomorrow.”
I sat down with Mr. Prince and Mr. Boutwell and the district attorney. And in effect I said, “Look, I know you guys don’t like me. I’m trouble. I have a legitimate book contract with him and I’m going to do the book with you or without you.” I
Page 2594
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Said, “You can keep me from seeing him, but if you allow your book authors, your writers in and don’t allow me, you’re going to have some legal problems.”
So from that day on, they were very concerned was I going to sue, was I going to sue. And I recall one time when Henry called - - was forced to call me and he said, “You got to give up papers saying you won’t ever sue these people.”
I said, “Where are you, Henry?”
He said, “I’m in Mr. Boutwell’s office” - - no - - “Mr. Prince’s office.”
I said, “Well, let me talk to Bob.” So I talked to Mr. Prince.
Q. Did Henry hand the phone to Mr. Prince?
A. Yes. I talked to him about Mr. Dobbs, his friend who had the book rights now, the second book rights, and then I said, “Is Jim Boutwell there?”
He said, “Yeah.” I talked with him. We agreed that I didn’t want to sue anybody, I just wanted to do a book, but I don’t want to lose access to Henry.
And by that time I was really excess baggage because they didn’t want to mess with me. They didn’t want me around or anything else. So I started visiting Henry on Saturdays when I knew they wouldn’t
Page 2595
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
come down. I would spend most of the Saturday afternoons with him and the - - morning and afternoon.
Q. In Georgetown there at the Williamson County jail? A. That’s correct.
Q. Now, all during that time Henry was continuing to confess to crimes, wasn’t he? A. Yes, he was.
Q. And this was after - - long after you had ascertained that he was confessing to crimes he couldn’t have committed? A. Very true.
Q. And you would talk with him about that, wouldn’t you?
A. I admonished him many times. I said, “Henry, you have to stop this somewhere.”
And he said, “Well, I can’t. They are going to send me to death row and I don’t want to go there.” Or he would say, “They won’t let me see Clemmie and I don’t want that to happen.”
And I said, “Henry, you have got to stop this somewhere and you can only stop it at the front ends. You have got to stop it.
Q. Henry was treated pretty well there at Williamson County, wasn’t he?
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Henry was treated pretty well for a prisoner.
Q. He got a lot of privileges other prisoners didn’t get, didn’t he, that you were able to observe? A. Well, I’m not in the position to tell you that the other prisoners didn’t - - but I saw what he got and it was better than any prisoner I had seen.
Q. Describe some of the things he got there at the Williamson County jail.
A. Well, I think people could come in and see him at any time of day or night, I could or Clemmie could or I could or other writers could. He had a color TV. He had tape recorders.
Clemmie would come and help him with his mail, bring him clothes, clean clothes, you know, help him with meals. And they pray together and sing together and talk and visit.
And I couldn’t tell who was in jail sometimes when I went out there. Some of the guards had more restrictions on them then he did.
Q. The - - As you continued to visit Henry even after the - - you were getting the cold shoulder treatment from Bob Prince and Jim Boutwell, were you still writing articles and sharing information with them concerning Henry Lucas confessing to crimes that occurred in places where he was not? Page 2597
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Well, in fairness, after I told them what I knew about the orange socks thing in Florida, after I had mentioned some facts that I knew about a case in Little Rock, Arkansas, and possibly one other, and I could see that they really didn’t want to talk to me, they resented the fact that I as taking the attack., that I was questioning, and after that, no, I didn’t share with them.
I was just gathering then and traveling and compiling. Because, you know, what the use? I didn’t want to be pushed out entirely, because there was a time when I thought if somebody doesn’t stick here and watch what is happening, this thing will never end. Henry will be put to death and it will all just of fade away and won’t nobody ever be able to know the truth.
Q. Had that been the hope of the people there in Williamson County? A. I couldn’t judge their motivation, sir.
Q. You talked about other book contracts. Did Bob Prince have a friend that was going to write a book for Bob Prince on the Henry Lee Lucas story?
A. I couldn’t say that. I know that he has a friend that he got into the jail late one night to sign the contract for personal services, books,
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movies and things like that and that money passed hands at the Texas Ranger Hall of Fame in Waco to start the proceeding.
Q. And who was that person that? A. His name was Johnny Dobbs.
Q. He was a used car dealer from Waco, wasn’t he? A. I think he was an ex-used car dealer. He was a deputy constable who has been in the wrecking business and other things. I don’t know. I have never met the man.
Q. To your knowledge, was he a long-time friend of Bobby Prince?
A. According to the investigation that the DPS did of Mr. Prince, yes. I had the results of that.
Q. And the money that changed hands in the Texas Ranger Hall of Fame, who did that money come from and who did it go to, to your knowledge? A. To my knowledge - - and my only knowledge comes from a picture in the Waco paper that shows Johnny Dobbs handing Henry a check.
Q. Okay.
A. I assume it came from Dobbs.
Q. That was to get Henry to sign a contract with Johnny Dobbs?
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Yes.
Q. And were there questions at one time whether or not Bobby Prince was going to profit from that book? A. There was never any real question in my mind. I just didn’t know and I didn’t care.
Q. Who else was in the book contract derby with Henry Lucas? A. Well, Mr. Boutwell brought in a reporter from Austin named Mike Cox, and I have never met Mr. Cox, either, but I know Mr. Boutwell used to have Mr. Lucas do tapes for him and various things. And I know that he contacted many, many publishers. I don’t think he got any contract.
Q. The - - But - -
A. There was one other, too. Mr. Boutwell brought in Jerry Potter. I believe you have a letter from him in evidence.
MR. PONTON: Let me approach the witness, if I could, Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right, sir.
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) I’ll show you what has been marked as Defendant’s Exhibit 29. Is that the letter you were referring to? A. Yes, it is.
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Q. From Jerry Potter? A. Yes.
Q. That is the letter from Jerry Potter to Bob Prince and Jim Boutwell in April of 1985? A. Yes, April of ’85.
Q. And did you receive a copy of that letter? A. Well, I didn’t receive a copy of that letter in the mail. I received a copy of that letter when I filed a Freedom of Information request with the DPS.
Q. All right.
A. The DPS had this.
Q. And here at page two of the letter, doesn’t Jerry Potter talk about talking with editor Jim Black at Taylor Publishing who wants to - - because he wants Jim Black to publish a pro-ranger book? A. I’d have to - - This is - - I haven’t read this in a long time. That’s generally what it says. I find that there are some facts in here that aren’t quite correct, but - -
Q. Well, he says he wants to write a book to attack your credibility, doesn’t he? A. That’s what he says, in essence.
Q. He is saying this editor turned down your book because he thought you had a credibility problem?
A. That’s what he says, but that certainly is
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not true. I would never consider Taylor Publishing Company publishing anything I wrote.
Q. He goes on here to say in here at this paragraph here, the third paragraph on the second page, that - - when he talks about 60 Minutes calling him back, he says, “And I told them what I suspected about Aynesworth’s involvement in a misuse of the media and a manipulation of a mentally ill prisoner for his own gain.”
That’s what he says to Bobby Prince and Jim Boutwell? A. Well, it’s obvious he’s trying to stay in real tight and real good with them and to please them. There are things in there that are nonfactual.
Q. Do you remember reading that fourth paragraph on the first page when he talks about contacting the governor’s office and getting a call back from the governor’s press secretary after he talked with Gilbert Pena and then receiving a call from a female U.S. attorney who is going to investigate your involvement with Henry and whether - - some other things of that nature? A. Yes. I noticed that, believe me.
Q. To your knowledge, is that a true and correct copy of the letter that was sent by Jerry
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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Potter to Bobby Prince and Jim Boutwell?
Well, to my - - Yes, as far as I know, this is that the DPS sent us.
Q. You received that when you filed a Freedom of Information Act request with the DPS? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And that document came to you in the materials you received from the DPS? A. Right.
Q. And to your knowledge, this copy has not been altered in any way since you received it from the DPS?
A. No.
MR. PONTON: At this time we would offer Defendant’s Exhibit 29 for purposes of this hearing.
THE COURT: Well, is it 29?
Yes.
MR. MOODY: Your Honor, I don’t have any objection.
THE COURT: Be admitted.
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) Now, Mr. Aynesworth, you finally became involved with a couple named Bob and Joyce Lemons later in ’84, did you not? A. Yes, I did.
Q. They - -
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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In fact, let me correct something. I said September and it was October.
Q. And their daughter had been killed in 1976 in Lubbock, and Henry Lucas had confesses to killing their daughter - - Excuse me - - in 1975. Henry Lucas had confessed to killing their daughter there on August 24th of ’75. You’re familiar with that? A. Yes, I am.
Q. You’re familiar that that is the date two days after Henry Lucas was released from prison in Michigan after serving 15 years for killing his mother? A. Well, I know that now. I didn’t know that at that time because there was some vagary about what date he was actually released.
Q. Were you able to ascertain with the Lemonses when he was released? A. Not until many months later. Mr. Prince always told me it was on the 5th.
Q. Of August?
A. Yeah - - Well, whatever the - - it was the 22nd, I believe, when he was released.
Q. Yes.
A. But Mr. Prince always told me that was the 5th.
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Q. And did you subsequently check with that prison to find - - to get some documents to prove that that was not right? A. I checked with the prison, but I didn’t actually get those documents. I think Mr. Lemons did.
Q. Now, later on that year, you went out and continued to get some more documentation on where Henry Lucas actually was during that eight-year period from ’75 to ’83, did you not?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And did you discover either alone or with Bob Lemons or through other sources that Henry Lucas spent ’75 to ’77 in northeast Maryland and that corner of Pennsylvania and then after that he was in Delaware and then subsequently Jacksonville, and came out to California later in ’81 or whenever that was and ended up in Stoneburg, Texas, in ’82, stayed there until ’83. Did you track all of that down? A. Well, at what period are you talking about? I took quite - - My time, some of it, as I explained it earlier, I was between books. I was free-lancing.
And so I finally made a deal with the Dallas Times Herald. I went to them and I said, “I think I have got probably the biggest hoax in law enforcement history here and I have got 80 percent done, but I
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Need another reporter and some money and some time.”
And at that point, in February of ’85, they put another reporter named Jim Henderson with me. At that time we went and really pinned down a lot more of this California, Pennsylvania, Maryland, Florida, Louisiana, Arkansas. So much of the actual - - of the actual, final pinning down of dates and finding witnesses that we couldn’t get before was in ’85.
Q. All right. And then you published a series of articles beginning April 15th or April 14th of ’85 in the Dallas Times Herald, did you not?
A. That’s correct.
Q. And these articles gave a step-by-step, state-by-state, crime-by-crime analysis of what Henry Lucas had confessed to doing and where your documentation and investigation had proven where he actually was at that time, did it not? A. We attempted to so the best job we could. It was a massive job, as you can well imagine.
Q. Yes, I - - surely I can. But those articles set forth the - - where Henry Lucas was as much as you-all could determine for that eight-year period? A. Yes.
Q. Those articles set forth what you were able to find out from the DPS on what Henry Lucas had
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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confessed to and what he had been indicted for or even convicted of. Is that correct? A. As best we could determine. We didn’t have access to all the DPS files, of course.
Q. Those articles caused quite a storm, didn’t they? A. That’s putting it mildly.
Q. That was an attack on the credibility of the Texas Rangers and the Department of Public Safety, was it not? A. It wasn’t construed to be that. It was construed to be that here was a horrible mistake and somebody had better wake up and pay attention.
Q. And that horrible mistake, you had shared information about that horrible mistake with the Texas Rangers as early as November of ’83? A. No, probably January or February of ’84.
Q. Okay. So for the next 15 months after you shared your information and documentation about this horrible mistake with the Texas Rangers, they continued to accept bogus confessions from Henry Lucas or confessions that you were subsequently able to prove were to crimes Henry Lucas couldn’t have committed. Is that correct? A. Mr. Ponton, I imagine they would be taking
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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them today were we not involved in this proceeding.
Q. Henry Lucas made his last confession when, to your knowledge? A. I’m not sure, but it was within a day or two before the stories broke in April of ’85.
Q. And he went to Waco, didn’t he, to McLennan County? A. Yes.
Q. Where a grand jury had been impaneled to determine whether or not he actually had committed three murders there that he had confessed to? A. Yes.
Q. And assistance was provided to that grand jury investigation by the prosecutor’s assistance division of the attorney general of the state of Texas? A. Yes.
Q. And based on that grand jury investigation, they determined that Henry Lucas - - well, they no billed Henry Lucas for those three crimes, didn’t they? A. That’s what they did.
Q. They found out he wasn’t in Waco when those three murders occurred? A. I don’t know what they found out, but they
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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no billed him.
Q. And that grand jury was able to have access to some of the documentation that you had been able to assemble. Is that correct? A. I appeared before that grand jury for a few hours, yes, that’s correct.
Q. They got documentation form the Lemonses? A. I don’t know what other people told the grand jury.
Q. And after Henry Lucas left that grand jury and left Waco, after a brief trip to San Antonio, where did he end up? A. Where did Mr. Lucas end up? In Huntsville.
Q. Death row?
A. Yes.
Q. Where the Texas Rangers had always told him he would end up if he didn’t stop confessing - - if he ever stopped confessing? A. That’s true. But, after all, he was a convicted murderer at that point, so that was the natural place for him to be. That was a better place than being at the task force where he could continue this charade.
Q. Now, you have done a personal investigation of much of his whereabouts over that eight-year
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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period? A. Yes.
Q. And you have done some investigation into the crimes that he confessed to, and not only confessed to but pled guilty to in a court of law? A. Some of them.
Q. And are you familiar with him pleading guilty to some of those crimes when your investigation could uncover that he wasn’t present when those crimes occurred? A. Yes.
Q. And are you familiar with whether or not he was accompanied by Texas Rangers when he went to give those guilty pleas? A. He was.
Q. And are you familiar with whether or not the Texas Rangers had knowledge before he entered those guilty pleas that Henry Lucas was not present in the state or county where those crimes occurred that he was about to enter a guilty plea to? A. Well, I’m certainly familiar with the one in Arkansas where I had a discussion with Mr. Prince that there was documentation that the day of the murder he was buying insurance in Jacksonville, Florida.
Q. And after you told Bobby Prince that, he
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EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
went up with Henry Lucas to Arkansas and let Henry Lucas plead guilty to murder? A. And took the stand and helped it along.
Q. Bobby Prince took the stand there? A. Yes.
Q. And that was - - Was that the Scotty Scott case?
A. Yes.
Q. And that was the - -
A. The retired police officer’s son.
Q. Yeah, that was a police officer’s son who killed somebody? A. Right.
Q. And Henry Lucas pled guilty to that to try to clear up that case for that son. Is that correct? A. Well, that was the effect of getting the son to trial.
Q. Are you familiar with any other cases where not only the Texas Rangers took a false confession from Henry Lucas, but they subsequently helped him plead guilty or were present when he pled guilty to a crime they knew he couldn’t have committed? A. It’s hard to know exactly what they knew. I could tell you yes, that they should have known or that there was certainly seemingly evidence, but it’s
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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hard to say what someone knew or didn’t know.
Q. Do you have an opinion as to when the Texas Rangers were aware that Henry Lucas was confessing to crimes he couldn’t have committed? A. Once again, I don’t know - - If, in fact, they were professional when they looked at the orange socks investigation, they must have known that he didn’t do any - -
Q. Yes.
A. - - at that point. That was February or so of 1984. The - - Well, there were several others that were just not investigated.
For instance, there were two in Baytown on the same day that there was on in Texarkana five hours later. It seems to me somebody might have noticed that you can hardly drive that fast.
And there are many other instances where the man would have had to drive 1,000 miles a day and back and forth. I think we figured at one time it was 13,000 miles in one month to kill six people he didn’t even know.
I mean, there should have been some thought that maybe we ought to question these confessions.
Q. And they weren’t ever questioned until your articles appeared and until the Waco grand jury was
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impaneled, is that correct, at least by official - -
A. Well, once again, I don’t know how much they questioned. Maybe their judgment is just a little off. Maybe they are not very professional. I won’t say they are crooked, exactly, but there were some awfully big holes left.
Q. Okay.
A. After the fact - - I Might mention, after the fact they did more investigation after the stories came out.
Q. Than they did before? A. Because I remember seeing a letter to a gentleman you had on the stand here, MR. Dalton? Q. Yes.
A. Where Jim Adams of the DPS wrote him six months after our stories came out asking him information about that case. A little late, maybe, but - -
Q. Do you have any other observations to add on your involvement in the Henry Lucas investigation? A. I don’t know what else to - - Well, I have a lot of thoughts but of no value to this proceeding.
Q. Your investigation included ascertaining Henry Lucas’ whereabouts in north Texas in 1983, didn’t it?
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Yes.
Q. You went and talked to some of these people in Montaque County, didn’t you? A. I talked to everybody I could find, and I probably made five or six trips up there.
Q. Talked to Sheriff Conway? A. Yes.
Q. Hound Dog Conway, they call him? A. Hound Dog.
Q. Phil Ryan, the Texas Ranger? A. Yes.
Q. Paul Smith, the DA investigator? A. Yes.
Q. Rueben and Faye Moore at the House of Prayer?
A. Yes.
Q. And some other people? A. Yes.
Q. Based on those interviews, did they tell you whether it was their opinion or their - - they had an observation that Henry Lucas remained in Montaque County continuously throughout the month of May of 1983? A. Every one of them told me that they believed he was there the whole month of May with the exception of Officer Ryan. Ranger Ryan didn’t say
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
that. He said that he had him under surveillance the whole month. I asked him if these other people would lie, and he said he saw no reason why they would.
Q. And that when Faye and Rueben Moore said they were positive that Henry Lucas never left the House of Prayer in May of ’83 except for a brief trip to perhaps Dallas or something, that Ranger Ryan would have no reason to think they were lying. Is that what he told you? A. That’s what Ranger Ryan told me in February of ’85.
Q. Was it not everybody’s not only belief bit their - - that they felt certain that Henry Lucas didn’t leave there until June 4th of ’83?
A. I don’t recall an exact date, but it was the first couple, three days there of June, yes, or four.
Q. Nobody ever told you that Henry Lucas left on a 1,500-mile or 2,000-mile trip to El Paso and back in late May of ’83, did they? A. No, no.
Q. There was no evidence of that at all, was there? A. No. They didn’t believe it was possible. Rueben said that he saw him every morning, had coffee, and he saw him every night until 9:00 or 10:00. He
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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said if he went anywhere it had to be from 10:00 to 9:00 through the night. He didn’t think he could make it anywhere very far.
Q. 10:00 to 9:00 is 11 hours. Hardly possible to make a round trip from Montaque to El Paso in 11 hours, is it?
A. I wouldn’t think so, sir.
Q. You still don’t have any book published about Henry Lucas, do you? A. No.
Q. It may never be published? A. That’s correct. I’m getting pretty tired of it.
Q. Your story is just about too incredible to put into a book, isn’t it?
A. Well, it’s incredible. It’s the most unusual thing I have ever run into.
MR. PONTON: We pass the witness, Your Honor.
BY MR. MOODY: Q. Mr. Aynesworth, you mentioned the fact here, I think, when you recalled the task force being formed, when you called it a task force - - I mean, they called it a task force, too, it wasn’t really a
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huge - - like the Green River task force or the task force they used in Atlanta, they really just had only a couple of people really involved in it? A. I never saw at those days more than Mr. Prince, Mr. Smith, Mr. Boutwell, those three.
Q. Okay. The cases that you actually investigated as far as Henry Lucas’ alibi defense, orange socks, you have gone over that one, was that evidence - - and, of course, that evidence was presented at the orange socks trial, was it not, by the defense team? A. Yes, it was.
Q. And for whatever reason, apparently the jury disregarded that evidence? A. That’s correct. And I think there was definite reason why.
Q. The other cases that you worked on were which ones again? You mentioned the case in Arkansas. That was the one with the, what was it, the police officer’s son? A. Police officer’s son that killed a convenience store clerk, yes.
Q. Was it your understanding that the people who represented his son, the private investigators and the defense attorneys were the ones trying to get
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Henry Lucas to confess to that crime? A. Yes, they originated it. In fact, Mr. Prince told me that that started before he was aware of the case.
Q. You know that the - - Or are you aware that the ranger task force never considered that a cleared case? A. Well, I don’t know whether they considered it a cleared case, Mr. Moody, but Mr. Prince took him up there and testified and allowed him to plead guilty to it, so it seems like it might be a cleared case.
Q. Are you sure he pled guilty or - - I think he just - -
A. No, he - - I’m sorry.
Q. He just testified - -
A. I’m sorry.
Q. This is not a - -
A. I’m sorry. Right. The result wasn’t made. He got a new trial. That’s true. And you’re saying that the task force did not consider it cleared by Mr. Lucas? Q. Yes. Were you - - I’m not sure, you know, what you were saying on that point. Was that - - Was it that Sergeant Prince at the time was wanting to
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Cooperate with the defense team up there and take him to Arkansas or do you think they were under subpoena to go to Arkansas or do you just not know? A. I don’t know if he was under subpoena. I just don’t know. I do know that Officer Prince knew that there was a document where he was in Jacksonville that morning.
Q. You mentioned going, I think you said, to Oklahoma.
A. Yes.
Q. Or some other state. What other particular cases did you investigate into the details of the case? A. The Clemmie Curtis case, the officer that committed suicide or was said to have committed suicide in Huntington, West Virginia.
Q. The West Virginia case.
A. And a Maryland case, the Harve de Grace, other Jacksonville cases, all those phony cases in St, Tammany Parish where, you recall, the task force was bragging about the fingerprints and the eyewitnesses. And not of them existed.
Q. And on the St. Tammany Parish case, isn’t it very possible that the local law enforcement officers mislead the rangers on those cases?
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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Oh, they mislead them completely. But once again, they sent the stuff to the DPS lab.
Q. Yeah.
A. So - -
Q. Well, they sent the evidence. But the problem in that case was that - - I think it was Detective Ed McGeehee had - - and the allegations in that case is he just took the known hair samples - - I mean, he knew, from the skull, and he submitted those in as the unknown with the knowns and - - I mean, if they sent them to the FBI lab or they sent them to an independent lab, the lab reports would have come back positive when you compare the knowns and the unknowns, you know, when you’re calling them unknowns and they are really knowns - -
A. Well - -
Q. - - that’s what they were doing. That’s the implications is that they were fabricating evidence, the local law enforcement officers, at least, a local law enforcement officer was fabricating evidence. Isn’t that correct? A. Well, Mr. Moody, that’s your testimony. That isn’t the way I understand it.
Q. Yeah. I was asking you if that’s the way you understood it?
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No.
Q. How did you understand it? A. Well, the hair - - Well, first, the fingerprint is the important thing. I mean, he said he had two fingerprints found at one of those crimes.
Q. Yes.
A. He said - -
Q. That was not the Ruth Manguno case. That was the one - -
A. Broyles case.
Q. Broyles case, the motel clerk? A. Right. He sends it to the Baton Rouge state crime lab. Comes back, says that are not Lucas’.
For months, he and Bob Prince and Jim Boutwell and even Jim Adams are talking about this fingerprint, which was not Lucas’ ever. When we came up with the document that shows it was not Lucas’, then Mr. McGeehee lost it. He has lost that fingerprint. It’s gone.
The eyewitnesses that he claimed to have, they said, when the grand jury met over there, that they never said that. They said they just two saw men leave the motel. They couldn’t pick anybody.
As far as the hair, he was supposed to have gotten the hair out of this car in New Mexico that
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Had already been swept by two or three different police departments, and all those police departments said, “We can’t imagine him finding something we couldn’t find in our investigations.”
So I don’t know about that.
Q. Yeah. In fact, you’re probably not aware of it, but our detective from El Paso, Detective Benito Perez, sat on the same witness stand where you’re sitting now and said the same thing. When he heard about Ed McGeehee and talked to Ed McGeehee and finding that hair sample, he didn’t believe it, that he just - - you know, I think the defense attorney asked if McGeehee was lying or something. And I think he said, “Yeah, I do. I don’t believe that evidence. I believe that’s fabricated.”
A. I don’t know that.
Q. You know, and - - Because that was a concern in our case, obviously, because of the - - the date there was the 2- - - that murder occurred in the 26th of May ’83. Ours is in the 27th.
A. The Manguno, yes.
Q. Was May 27th, ’83.
A. But one of those things about the Louisiana thing that is so interesting to me is that fact that all through this Prince, Boutwell and Adams were
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Always bragging about this. Apparently they didn’t look into it. They took the word of an officer and never looked into it. Even after our stories broke in April, if you will look at the press conference which happened that week, he is still bragging about the fingerprint.
Q. Of course, I think you understood the same thing about the ranger task force. It was not like Green River task force or some other of these other task forced that were set up with the objective to solve the crime.
Was is ever - - Were they ever set up, in your opinion, to go around and - - I mean, just to, you know, to get all the information from all over the country and to solve crimes or were they supposed to make him available to other law enforcement agencies? A. Well, Mr. Moody, their intention, their stated intention was always to be a - - sort of an agency that would coordinate the other agencies coming in, that they would not clear cases, they would not solve anything.
If you will look, there are 30 or 40 cases cleared by them. And in some cases, if you talked to the local jurisdictions, you find that they made
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EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
The cases.
Now, publicly and always, they always said, “We are just a coordinating task force.” But they did venture further than that.
Q. Yeah. There were some cases where the local rangers had been involved?
A. Many.
Q. Had been involved in - -
A. Right. 30-some.
Q. And either - - maybe to some degree that the local ranger had done it all, to others that the local ranger usually is just an assisting agent to a sheriff in a rural county. I mean, that’s their job.
A. Certainly. I agree.
Q. That’s what they were doing? A. And certainly not like the Green River task force or the Atlanta task force or like any of the others. There were never more than four people.
Q. Yeah. I don’t want to get the ranger task force confused with, you know, what a lot people think task forces really are.
A. Right.
Q. And this was not a task force or a massive task force set up to find a criminal, you know, and to solve the case.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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No, they had their criminal.
Q. They already had him. So they didn’t need to do that. They were just the coordinating agency, supposedly, for other people to talk to Henry.
They never did have - - or they had very few files. They didn’t keep files of the cases being sent in and mailed in. They would mail them back. Are you aware of that or - - when they would get mail-in cases? A. I was told that. I don’t know about the time period, how long they kept them. I have often seen them on the desk there in the room, 10, 20 files, but I don’t know how long they had them.
Q. You mentioned one phrase - - Well, were there any other cases other than those areas that you have mentioned, orange socks, Clemmie Curtis, this Maryland case there in - - I don’t pronounce that one.
A. Havre de Grace.
Q. Yes. It’s outside of Aberdeen.
A. I also investigated the - -
Q. Jacksonville? A. - - well, some of the Dallas area cases. There was some in Plano, there were some in Rockwell, there was some in - - or Kaufman, rather, one that Henry pled to.
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Q. When you were investigating those cases, were you able to investigate them from the standpoint of being able to look at the entire police investigation and compare that with alibi evidence and then compare that with videotape, audiotape or written confessions of Henry Lucas, that you were able to get them all out on one table and then compare them and make an analogy? A. In a couple or three of the cases, yes. But let me assure you I don’t consider myself someone who can go in and do an investigation and pass along to the rangers or to anybody else and say, hey, you ought to do this.
The only thing I did was help them - - tell them that I knew there was evidence, they should go talk to somebody. I didn’t put myself up as an expert even though I was a registered licensed private detective for several years.
Q. Yeah, I think you - - and you have gained a lot of experience, you know, in your journalistic career in investigating cases, I guess. You could - -
A. I don’t think there is any reason in the world they should believe me and what I have investigated into these cases except that if you’re putting a man on - - his life is on the stand, it
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seems like - - and you think there is a couple other witnesses that somebody fairly legitimate tells you about it, you might even make the call or go see them. That’s my whole point in the thing.
Q. IN fact, when you came here to El Paso - - And I think you met with me at one time a long time ago. I think I did request - - or do you remember that? Didn’t I request from you if you ever developed any evidence that you felt was exculpatory, that would prove that Henry Lucas wasn’t here, documented evidence like you had in that case in - - Where was it? A. The orange socks case? Q. Yeah. And asked you to - -
A. Yeah. And, in fact - -
Q. - - please pass it on to us? A. Right. You did. In fairness, you did. However, you had already been where I had been in Montaque with your task force or your group of four or five people, and I knew you had talked to the same people I did. And you may not have considered the thing the same as I did, you know, and weighed the evidence the same way.
Q. In fact, didn’t - -
A. But, no, you were very kind. You told me
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that you had a great concern about the mileage on his car. That was your main concern, you told me.
Q. Yeah, I did. One of the things that was interesting was the - - in looking into your discovery up in Montaque County, I think you asked, we asked, and the defense has asked, you know, bunched of people have asked the Moores and everybody for documentary type evidence, and they never - - did they ever give you any or even give you a clue that there was documentary evidence that could put Henry Lucas in Montaque County on the - - either the 24th, 25th, 26th, 27th, you know, after the license plates?
There are certain documents that place him there, but then after that there is a gap and we are kind of left with Rueben and Faye’s, you know, word on the subject.
As I recall, the last time I visited with them they told me that there was some documentation of when and where Henry had worked. I did not pursue it any further because I was doing other things and I knew that the defense people had an investigator up there. And it had to do with a couple of roofing jobs that Henry had been on.
I think the only document that he came up with when I was up there was a deal on the - - where
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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he gave Henry money on the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th, something of that sort. I’m just not familiar with it. But not any great amount of documentation.
Q. Yeah. It wasn’t a document like the one in orange socks where - - him cashing a check? A. No.
Q. I mean, if it had been - -
A. There was nothing like that that I’m aware of.
Q. Apparently that document you’re referring to, and I have never seen or heard of it, but if that document exists, it’s apparently, what, some kind of a document that shows that Rueben was doing a job on a certain day and then Rueben would say, “I paid Henry some money out of this”?
A. I think that’s correct, sir. But like I say, I’m not investigating for the defense, so I don’t know what they got.
Q. But you’re not aware of any, you know, canceled checks or - -
A. I’m not aware of any.
Q. - - things of that nature that were - - or bills that he signed on those days. You’re not aware of anything like that?
A. I’m not aware of that, no.
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Q. And again, if you gain any of that information, again I would request, you know, please turn it over to us.
A. I would do that. The fact is, as you recall, I told you a couple days ago if I could help you with anything at all, if there was anything else, I would do so.
Q. I appreciate that. The defense attorney asked you a little bit about your book, The Only Living Witness, asked you about Ted Bundy, a person that you’re very familiar with, that, you know, isn’t Ted Bundy somebody you investigated, and here is Henry Lucas, maybe a person more prolific than Bundy, at least allegedly more prolific than Bundy. I’d like to go into a little bit about that with you, because I have - - I have read your book and I think it’s a very interesting book and I think it’s very insightful book on the - - possibly the psychology of a mass murderer, what type of personality you would be looking for in that area.
I see some striking similarities between Bundy and Lucas. You may not. I would like to go over your references in the book and then look at the similarities to Lucas. In, I think you mentioned - - or in the book - - And, of course, it’s a coauthored
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book?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. I understand that not every word is printed by you. If there are some things in here that we refer to that you and your coauthor may have had a different point of view, please tell me because I don’t wasn’t to - -
A. Well, let me explain one thing to you, that Stephen Michaud wrote about 90 percent of the book, I investigated about 90 percent of the book, and that’s the way we worked as a team.
Q. It seemed when I read the book to be that way. It seemed like he was doing most of the writing, but you had done most of the investigation.
A. That’s right.
Q. Kind of interesting that in regards to Ted Bundy, all of his alleged victims only one ever escaped to - -
A. Yes.
Q. - - to your knowledge? Were you aware as far as Henry Lucas, we have only come up with one case, Deborah Shepard out of High Island, that ever claims they have escaped from Henry Lucas? A. I’m aware of that. In fact, I tried to find her and I couldn’t find her.
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Q. Bundy had a propensity to drive bodies to locations and then dump them. Is that correct?
A. Correct.
Q. Now, he was more professional in that he apparently dumped them in - - generally would dump them in one particular area depending - - well, he had several dumping grounds.
A. Usually wooded areas, secluded areas, the mountains.
Q. And were you - - And you’re, of course, I think, more than familiar tat Henry Lucas, of some of the alleged murders that he was involved in, many of those cases are again cases where bodied are dumped, not in as secluded of places, dumped on roadside parks, dumped in - - some are in secluded areas. There is a great deal of cases where bodies have been dumped where he has been allegedly involved. Are you aware of that?
A. So long as you say allegedly, I’ll buy that.
Q. Bundy tended to dump the bodies nude or at least that was the allegation in the book. It was hard to tell.
A. Most of them, yes.
Q. In many of the Henry Lucas cases, the bodies allegedly dropped by him have been left nude or with
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just socks on. Are you aware of that? A. I’m aware of that.
Q. The Bundy cases, most of them other than the Chi Omega case and the Leach girl case there in Florida left themselves with very little physical evidence. Basically they have bones, decomposed bodies. Is that correct? A. That’s correct, because of the time element in most cases. He operated for, you know, two or three years before he was really suspected. By that time he had left Washington and gone to Utah. By the time he was suspected there, he was already in Colorado. And so a lot of these, you know, the predators would carry away the flesh and bones in some of these places where he had dumped them.
Q. And a lot of the alleged cases that Henry Lucas is involved in also have skeletal remains only or decomposed bodies and leave themselves very little physical evidence to corroborate him or not corroborate him. Is that correct, also? A. Well, there are thousands of skeletons found in this country every year. You say allegedly. You mean that Henry confessed to at one time or another, yes, I agree with you.
Q. Bundy claimed - - apparently liked to drive a
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lot. In the book it seemed to indicate - -
A. He did drive a lot, yes.
Q. He enjoyed driving. He liked getting out and driving. He liked be alone driving? A. He trolled a lot. He went out - - He got this urge, he went out to kill someone, pick up some one and kill them.
Q. Henry Lucas, according even to this Michigan mental records which I think you have had a chance to loot at, stated - -
A. Yes.
Q. - - way back when he was a young man loved to get out and drive a lot by himself, be alone. Do you recall those mental records? A. I - - As we discussed, I saw some of those mental records and I do vaguely recall that, yes. And I think there is a psychological reason for that.
Q. But that is a similarity between Bundy and Henry Lucas.
In the Bundy cases, all the cases that he allegedly did, no fingerprints were ever found in any of thise cases, were there? A. I don’t think so.
Q. Yeah, I have got a reference - -
A. Outside of - -
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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Q. Even in Chi Omega there were no fingerprints? A. Yeah, that’s true.
Q. Yeah, I think on page 19 it’s referred to in your book.
A. It’s unusual.
Q. It’s referred to in the book, no fingerprints. And of course, in the Henry Lucas case, no - - other than that one fingerprint that was not really a fingerprint has ever been found in the Henry Lucas case? A. Well, of course, the allegation is that Henry used, what was it, he used rubber gloves all the time. Of course, Ted said he was just smart.
Q. That was one of the most interesting references. Henry says he used surgical gloves. And then do you remember- - I found a passage in The Only Living Witness from, I believe it was, his girlfriend. Was it Liz? A. Liz Kendall, yes.
Q. On page 79. And she was saying - - this in regards to Ted Bundy, “He once threatened to break my neck,” and - - “if she ever exposed him for the thief he was. She remembers that late one night he came by to retrieve a crowbar he had left under her radiator. Liz saw something bulging from his pocket and pulled
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
it out; it was a surgical glove.”
A.Yes.
Q. Do you - - It’s kind of interesting that both of them - - You don’t think that Henry Lucas ever read The Only Living Witness or - -
A. I rather doubt it. I think that Mr. Bundy, if you recall, worked at a medical supply place where he stole rubber gloves, where he stole plaster of paris, where he got his makeup and his slings and things of that sort.
Q. And Henry Lucas claimed he had broken into some doctor’s offices and stole some rubber gloves. Both of them were claiming that they were stolen? A. Yes.
Q. I don’t know. Maybe it’s just a coincidence that rubber gloves or surgical gloves come up in both cases. It even comes up in our case where he mentions that, you know, that he was wearing surgical gloves.
A. That makes it convenient if you don’t have fingerprints, I guess.
Q. Right. But - - And, of course, that analogy came out, true, again with both Bundy and with Lucas that there are no fingerprints on any of the cases on either one of them across the United States? Page 2636
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A.Yes, sir.
Q. When there was - - In the case with Ted Bundy it indicated that no real physical evidence that ever conclusively linked him to the crime was ever found.
Now, there was - - you know, there is degrees of physical type evidence and you know of - -
A. There is a lot of fiver evidence in the Leach case, particularly.
Q. But there was never anything that conclusively linked him to a crime, and, of course, that was one of his main contentions, wasn’t it?
A. Remember, Ted Bundy had an IQ probably of more than any killer that you have ever run into or will ever run into. He was a very bright guy. He didn’t want to get caught.
Q. Right. Of course, the same striking similarity appears in the Lucas cases. Again, you know, while there is some physical evidence in some of the cases - - I’m referring particularly to the - -
A. There is very little.
Q. Very little - -
A. I’ll agree with you there is a very little physical evidence in any of these cases.
Q. But again none of them conclusively link him to any of those crimes?
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A.I noticed that.
Q. Ted Bundy mentioned sex after death in several of his cases, did he not? As far as - - I know that your interview, and, you know, we had to get into a whole idea about that. He has never said he did these cases and said, I killed this one and I did this. You talked to him in the third person? A. He talked about - - There was a definite hint and a probability of it in a couple cases he was very messed up sexually.
Q. And, of course, I mean, so is Henry Lucas. I mean, from your studies on his psychiatric records? A. Well, not just from that, but from many, many hours of interviews, I agree that I think that he was.
Q. I mean, both men have a very messed up sexual background. And Henry Lucas mentions this sex after death in many murders, even in our case here. Is that correct? A. Many, right.
Q. There were times when you would get Ted Bundy into a position about a subject that he didn’t want to talk about and he just would flare up and say, “I’m not going into that.” Is that correct? A. Sometimes. Sometimes he would do that.
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Sometimes he would just get very visibly shaken. Sometimes he would stutter. Sometimes he would evade. You never knew two days in a row how Bundy was going to react to you.
Q. And is it kind of the - - Henry has mood swings to a strong degree, too, doesn’t he? A. I have seen some, yes. Of course, I do, too. And I - - From reading the paper yesterday, I believe you do, too.
Q. When provoked, most people will fight, won’t they? A. I think so.
Q. Bundy was into petty theft as a teenager. Apparently, you know, your studies of Henry’s background back in Virginia indicates that he has that same criminal history. Do you think, you know, they are similar in that pattern? A. Not exactly, no.
Q. Not exactly in the theft pattern. They both committed thefts? A. They did. I agree with that, sure.
Q. Both of them had a mother figure who was the more dominant figure in the family. Is that correct? A. Yes.
Q. Both of them had a very much love-hate type
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Relationship with their mothers, very unusual relationship? A. I don’t know that Henry ever loved his mother. I know he hated her vehemently. I do believe that. But with Ted, it was a very ambiguous thing.
Q. In the psychiatric records, I think in Michigan, Henry Lucas’ - - he would have different feelings about his mother, you know, from time to time, two different feelings, one that he felt - - he was very sorry for her and cared for her, and another that he had a great grudge against her. He hated her a great deal? A. I’m aware - - I think that’s about 1960 or ’61. And, of course, I didn’t meet him until ’83. And from my knowledge of it, he seemed to have a vehement hate. I just never saw the love, if there was any.
Q. Both of them had experiences where they had great failures with women, Marjorie, in regards to - -
A. I think most people that have a problem with their mother do have problems with women throughout life. I think almost all major murderers, if you look, from Lee Harvey Oswald to Jack Ruby to - - well, just on down the line have mother problems somewhere.
Q. On page 72 of the book, you mentioned or this
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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book mentions the thief part of the personality in this complex picture of this mass murderer type person, a person, that kills, I guess, because they have some psychological need to kill.
It mentions stealing things, that Bundy used to steal. It mentioned that he would steal stereos, cookwear, clothing. So you recall that?
A.As I recall, he stole a nine-foot plant one time in the back of his Volkswagen.
Q. You put that in the book. Did you find it interesting that in our case here in El Paso that the items allegedly stolen were - - I mean, a stereo, a type, you know, here is something that Bundy’s type tends to steal, here is something that Lucas tends to steal, cookware, a crockpot. And, of course, you are aware that a crockpot is one of the major pieces of evidence. A duffel bag may be one of the items stolen with some clothing in it in our case.
So we have the same type of property stolen by both individuals? A. I wouldn’t find it unusual that somebody would break in and take a stereo. I think the crockpot is rather unusual.
Q. It is. But yet Bundy would steal cookware, too, which is kind of an unusual thing to steal,
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cookwear? A. Well, on the crockpot situation, I find that unusual, but I recall you telling me one time that it wasn’t definite that the crockpot was taken, that it was one not unlike the one that this one - -
Q. Well, yeah, I was telling you that you can never prove a piece of evidence like that to the exclusion of all others.
A. But I didn’t realize that this was definitely taken from this. But that is unusual to me.
Q. Both apparently got involved in some degree then, into home burglaries, to residential type. Is that correct? Is that a similar pattern?
A. I don’t know that Henry did any home burglaries. I’m not familiar with that. I don’t know. I just don’t know.
Q. Okay. Both of them are - - Of course, in our case, it’s a home burglary.
A. Oh, I see what you mean. Well - -
Q. Both - -
A. But I’m not of the opinion that Henry was here to do it.
Q. Both apparently - - Or if I’m wrong, state that I’m wrong on these. Both were or are chronic
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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you find the body with socks on, a rape victim or murder victim that Henry Lee Lucas did.
Q. No, I’m not saying that every victim you find out there that was left nude with the exception of socks on them that Henry Lee Lucas did it.
But, you know, that is an unusual trait. I mean, if you’re going to strip the body entirely and just leave one item left, that is kind of odd. I have not seen that in a lot of murder cases, have you? A. No.
Q. It would probably indicate to you something about the person that did this murder has some kind of a fetish or something about the feet, shoes, socks? A. If indeed the same person did all of those, yes.
Q. One of the interesting things was that in the book, you mentioned it with Bundy and with these type of people one of the triggering mechanisms or the triggering mechanism seemed to be this intoxication, this drinking problem. Do you recall that triggering mechanism? A. Oh, yes.
Q. Would you find it interesting to know that, like in our case and in several of the cases with Henry Lucas involved, particularly in our case he
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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Mentions the fact that he was drinking, he was intoxicated, he was high before committing our crime? If you believe he committed our crime. But he mentions a triggering mechanism of drinking prior to many of his murders.
A. Mr. Moody, if you go back to the early interviews when Henry was led into some of these interviews, it was always suggested to him, “Where you on dope? Were you drunk?” Pretty soon, in other words, everything he confessed to, he picked that up and used it.
Q. But, I mean, at least that similar pattern is mentioned? A. Sure.
Q. Both of them had apparently a history of being Peeping Toms. Is that correct? A. I don’t know whether Henry ever told me he peeped in windows or not. I don’t know. I know Ted did.
Q. There is some stuff in the psychological reports from Michigan that indicate that he had that propensity? A. Yes.
Q. And family members talked about him wandering around to look into windows. Do you recall
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that?
A. Yes.
Q. Apparently this Peeping Tom thing has something to do with - - the way Bundy was describing it was this voyeurism helped satisfy the sick fantasies that he would have? A. Yes.
Q. And you’re aware form looking at the psychological reports of Henry Lucas he also had these same kind of sick fantasies going on in his mind for quite a few years? A. Well, Mr. Moody, when you asked me if I had read all the psychological reports, I told you I thought I had read some of them. I’m not that familiar with these explicit things you’re bringing up. I vaguely recall these things. It might be of more benefit for you to put them in the record, because I don’t really remember what is in that.
Q. Okay. I’ll do that. Bundy would have the dreams of kidnapping people or fantasies of kidnapping and then both Henry Lucas and Ted Bundy had been convicted - - Well, I don’t know whether - - because Bundy - - Yes, he was convicted on a kidnapping charge in - - Was it Utah? Was that the girl that - -
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Salt Lake City, the DaRonch case.
Q. - - the one that got away? And Henry Lucas has been convicted of attempted kidnapping where the girl was up in Adrian, Michigan, after released from prison, after being - -
A. That’s when his parole was revoked.
Q. Was revoked? A. Yes.
Q. In fact, he actually was then, I think, additionally convicted on top of his parole being revoked for a kidnapping. So they both have kidnapping charges in their background? A. Um-hum.
Q. Bundy apparently gave no feeling of guilt when he talked to you-all and that’s mentioned, isn’t it? A. Bundy didn’t have any remorse at all except that he got caught.
Q. Lucas, when you look at his videotapes - - Of course, I think, you know, you could explain it by saying that he doesn’t have any guilt because he didn’t do them, but when you look at him describing the murders and they are very terrible murders, that some of them that he confesses to, he does not appear to show any remorse or feelings in any of them except
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For maybe Becky Powell. He does seem to be emotionally moved by that one. Is that correct? A. I would agree with you. For the first six months that Henry and I talked about Becky he would break down and cry almost every time. And it was not a contrived thing. I think he was really affected by that.
Q. But - - And you have seen a lot of videotapes where he doesn’t seem moved or - - to any degree by any - -
A. I have seen a lot of them. Because I don’t believe he did the crimes I don’t imagine why he should get upset with those.
Q. You talked about when Bundy would start talking about the actual incidents that he would get in maybe a trance like state. His eyes would darken. It wasn’t even like you were really conducting an interview anymore, but, I mean, he was just reliving this experience again in his mind. Is that correct? A. Sometimes, not always. He would never react twice the same way, but I do recall some occasions like you described. He would just grab the microphone and sort of take off. He would get strange facial contortions. Welts would appear and he would get a little dark like he was in a dreamlike
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state at times. Other times he would laugh and joke about it.
Q. And other - - When there - - Would you be surprised that - - not in all of the cases where henry Lucas allegedly would take the officers to the crime scene, but in some of those cases where he would take them to the crime scene they would indicate some of this same feeling, this like, in other words, they weren’t even questioning him anymore, that he was in a trance like state. Would that surprise you?
A. Nothing would surprise me about this case.
Q. Do you think there is a possibility that Lucas and Toole are Bundy copycats in a sense that is it more than just a coincidence that Bundy was being tried in Florida, Miami, and then in Orlando in June and July of ’79 and then in Orlando in January and February of ’80 at the same time period that Lucas and Toole were living in Florida? And apparently they would have been subject to the mass media of ted Bundy. I’m sure that, you know - - I mean, I don’t think that they are avid readers of the press, but - -
A. I’m sorry. I sort if lost track. What were you asking me? Q. Do you think it would be possible that they would be Bundy copycats?
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A.I would find it very hard to believe. Mr. Toole and Mr. Lucas lived in the stratus of society that was just totally, totally different from this. I don’t see - - Possibly they read the paper, possibly. I don’t think Henry had heard of Mr. Bundy when I first talked to him. I can’t say that for sure, but - -
And as you look, you know, when you say copycat, you’re talking about two people, two murderers on the extreme ends of the scope here. You have got - - Mr. Lucas is not an educated man. He is not a man that has ever had anything and traveled in the circles of Bundy traveled in. He is a very educated, very articulate man. They operated in different socioeconomic stratas.
Q. Isn’t it possible that Henry Lucas to some degree could be a poor man’s - - and maybe poor and dumb man’s Ted Bundy? A. I could not imagine it.
Q. Ted Bundy’s family and friends didn’t suspect him, according to your-all’s - -
A. No, they didn’t suspect him. In fact, some of them still to this day probably thing he’s innocent.
Q. Again Lucas’ family and friends would not suspect him of being this type of person?
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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A.That’s true, in part. They - - And there is a reason for that. The reason they don’t think he did it is because they know where he was during all four or five of these years and they know darn well he couldn’t have been out in Texas and Florida killing people.
I don’t think they put it beyond him, because a lot of his family does not like Henry at all. They don’t want ever to see him again. They just don’t like him, He does not have a close family situation.
Q. Going through all these things I have gone through with you, there are a lot of striking similarities between Henry Lucas and Ted Bundy, are there not? There are some differences, of course, and I know there are some differences.
A. There are some similarities. We certainly didn’t explore very many of the differences.
Q. And I think you believe or do you believe, that Henry Lucas did kill Frieda Powell and Mrs. Rich and his mother? A. I do believe that.
Q. And you have not had the opportunity to go over the details of each and every one of the other cases across the United States? Page 2651
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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Of course not.
Q. And would you - - I don’t know. Maybe you won’t concede the point. But would you concede the point that a person who kills three people certainly has the potential to kill more? A. I Think if anyone kills, period, he has a potential to kill more.
Q. And while you said, I believe, that Henry Lucas - - you never believed he killed 100 people based with his psychological background and what you know about him, he is the type of person that could very easily be a multiple killer, not to the degree of 100, but the degree of 20 or 30 if he can get away with it. Do you believe that? A. I would have agreed with you when I first met him, but since I have gotten to know the situation a lot better, when Henry killed it was for a specific rejection or something concerning a woman. It was not - -
Henry Lucas didn’t go around killing, randomly shooting people, raping people and all this stuff. I don’t believe it. There is no evidence of that other than his confessions. And I was privy to the day when he told me what he was doing, all the way. He said, “I don’t like cops. I’m going to get
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Even. I’m going to do this. I’m going to take 18 in New Orleans. I’m going to take some out in California.”
This man is not what he looks like, what his profile looks like. He killed his mother - - And he and I have some very real differences. He says he killed his mother very accidently. I think that there was a hatred there so much that - - I think that there was argument and I think he killed her, but I don’t think he felt that badly about it.
Q. In fact, with his mother, he gives that story about it’s - - he makes it almost like an accident, and it wasn’t almost like an accident, according to the autopsy. And you have studied that, I think, and you - - Have you had trial transcripts? Have you studied the trial transcripts from Michigan on his mother? A. I have read them. I haven’t really studied them that much because he has already served his time for that one.
Q. Right.
A. But I think that he might have swung accidently. But once he - - I think it was hatred there.
And I - - With Becky, I think Becky was
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
leaving him. And I think they got in an argument and maybe he did it accidently. But I know that these things happen when he has some problem with a woman.
Q. What about Mrs. Rich, the 82-year-old woman?
A. I can’t understand that one. I can’t understand that.
Q. There is a great discussion or there is some discussion in the book about spontaneous violent actions by Bundy. Some of it is planned, but the actual moment, murder, sometimes is spontaneous or am I misstating that? A. No. Bundy used to plot. In fact, his enjoyment came in the chase and the seizure and everything more than the actual killing itself.
Q. The possession factor that you discussed? A. Right. Possession, right. But Henry and I have had a lot of conversations, because from - - once he told me he killed Mrs. Rich, he told me he killed Becky. Now he says he did not.
I haven’t investigated them, but I found that everything else he told be during those months, almost everything else was true. So I believe that when he said he killed Mrs. Rich and Becky.
I’m aware, too, that they found Becky’s - - some of her remains. I don’t know how they would
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Have found them otherwise, and I think some of Mrs. Rich’s clothing, things of that sort.
But that’s as far as I’ll go, because I don’t see any other evidence and I don’t think you would be trying this case if you had a strong one anywhere else.
Q. Wait a minute. I don’t understand.
A. I’m saying I don’t think you would be trying the Apodaca case if there was a strong case somewhere else.
Q. Oh, if there was a stronger case - -
A. Yes.
Q. Yes. I mean, you concede that this is, based on your investigations, this is probably one of the three or four cases that has some strength in it. Is that correct? A. That’s what I would assume. That’s what I have always been told by the rangers. And once again, if you will please forgive me, this is my opinion on a lot of things that I’m really not qualified to talk about other than just being an interviewer, and investigator, no.
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MR. MOODY: Well, thank you very much.
Thank you.
MR. MOODY: Pass the witness.
MR. PONTON: Just a couple of questions, Mr. Aynesworth.
BY MR. PONTON
Q. You said that there was no evidence that you were ever able to uncover that Henry Lucas was a house burglar. Is that correct? A. Yes.
Q. But you have some evidence on some burglaries in your own home, do you not? A. Yes.
Q. Please tell me about that, any recent burglaries or break-ins you have had of your own home? A. I have been burglarized twice in the last 11 months in my home.
Q. What was taken? A. The first time a typewriter, television set, a bunch of tapes.
Q. Tapes of what? A. Interviews with Mr. Lucas and other characters and relatives, things of that sort.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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Q. And - -
A. I don’t know how many exactly, because I have a lot of them and I don’t know exactly what was missing.
Q. What about the other one? A. The other one was about four weeks ago. And in that case, three cameras, I think, were taken, about 20 tapes, some of those blank tapes, videotapes.
Q. Yes.
A. A few audiotapes.
Q. Where the audiotapes of interviews? A. Yes.
Q. Regarding the Lucas case? A. Yes, all of them, and they were all marked. Didn’t take the VCR, didn’t take any of my television sets but - -
Q. They took the tapes of interviews with Lucas in the Lucas investigation? A. Yes, they did.
Q. Now, you tried to provide information to the Texas Rangers about the Lucas hoax as early as, I think you testified, January of ’84? A. Or February. I’m not sure exactly what date.
Q. That was not accepted by them, was it? A. Well, Mr. Boutwell and Mr. Prince said, “You
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
just don’t understand,” and that - - Mr. Boutwell told me that after the trial he would share - - that he would show me that they had done the investigation on it.
Q. Has he ever done so? A. Well, no, because it became pretty apparent I was the sort of a - - sort of a gnat on the horizon that was just bugging them a little bit. They didn’t want me questioning him and particularly after I gave an interview in Austin in April saying that they had not done such an investigation and they he was at Jacksonville.
Q. And then later after your stories and - - Did they try to use any of your information to clear up the fact that Henry Lucas couldn’t have committed those crimes that he confessed to? A. I don’t quite understand what you mean, sir.
Q. Well, as a matter of fact, after April of ’85 when your stories appeared, didn’t the Texas Rangers try to redouble their efforts to prove that Henry Lucas had committed some of these crimes and some of these records and things that he had that showed him to be in other places that maybe weren’t accurate? A. Well, I know they called various jurisdictions to try to do some more investigation
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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really fast, yes.
Q. But that investigation wasn’t really to definitely show where Henry was, was it? A. I think at this point it was to cover their problem.
Q. Would you consider that the way the Texas Rangers and the Texas Ranger task force handled the truth about where Henry Lucas was was a coverup? A. I don’t know whether I would call it a coverup. It was certainly an inept investigation. It was certainly a duplicitous situation. It was that they built it from nowhere and they knew it,
Q. Perhaps instead of Watergate, a Lucasgate? A. Well - -
Q. Have you ever heard that used? A. I haven’t heard that used.
Q. As a matter of fact what I showed you in that letter, in Defendant’s exhibit 29, showed that the governor’s office of the state of Texas was talking with the - - apparently talking with the U.S. attorney’s office in April of ’85 regarding - - trying to stop this toothpaste from coming out of the tube. Is that your opinion of that letter?
A. Well, that’s what that letter reflects, but we know before that there was an effort made to shore
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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Up the investigation. In January of that year they put a Captain Warner, I believe, on that task force and at that point they started investigating it a little tighter and tightening up some things.
MR. PONTON: Thank you, Mr. Aynesworth. I have no further questions, Your Honor.
MR. MOODY: Excuse me. I did forget one question.
BY MR. MOODY:
Q. When I was taking down your testimony, maybe I didn’t get it right or maybe you didn’t - - maybe you meant to state it another way. I know that comes out that way. You mentioned like - - Maybe I got - - Henry Lucas was telling you in those early interviews, and I have quoted down here from your testimony, “They know I making,” and you use the word some of these up - -
A. I don’t remember whether I said some or not, but - -
Q. Because that’s the word I got and I focused on it because obviously it seemed important to me if he was telling, “I was making some of them,” then it might infer that some of them I am not making up.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-21
Seems to me he said, “They know I’m making it up,” or “making these up” or - - I don’t recall exactly, sir, but the implication was that they knew - - they knew he was making it up. They didn’t care. was That was it. That was the implication that I got and if I misphrased it, I’m sorry.
Q. No, that’s why I wanted to give you a chance on that point. To me, if he really did say, “I’m making some of them up,” that would be significant to me. But if he said, “I’m making all of these up,” that wouldn’t.
A. I feel if he would have said some, I would have said, “Okay. Which ones?” I would have dug in a little bit more at that point.
Q. That’s why when you said some, that’s when I got interested.
MR. MOODY: Thank you.
THE COURT: Thank you, Mr. Aynesworth.
At this time, we’ll take a short break.
(A recess was taken.)
JAMES LANG,
Having been first duly sworn by the Court to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, was examined and testified as follows:
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
BY MR. PONTON:
Q. What is your name, sir?
A. James Lang, L A N G.
Q. How are you employed? A. Assistant district attorney of Tehama County, California.
Q. That is the elected district attorney? A. That is correct.
Q. Tell me a little bit about your background, please.
A. I was a Los Angeles policeman from 1948 to 1968. I was admitted to practice law in 1968 in California.
I spent a period of time in the Orange County, California, Public Defender’s office. I transferred to the Orange County District Attorney’s office for approximately a year and a half. I was in charge of their branch office in Harbor Judicial District in Orange County.
I moved to Red Bluff, California, as assistant district attorney of Tehama County for four years. I was judge of the court in the Red Bluff Judicial District for six years, and then I was the
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Criminal defense attorney for a period of a year and a half, two years.
I ran and was elected district attorney and I have since been reelected district attorney.
Q. Did you have occasion to investigate the death - - the disappearance and death of a woman named Rashell Ward in your county? A. I did.
Q. She was abducted on March 3rd, 1983? A. That is correct.
Q. And the investigation into the abduction and death led to Henry Lucas, did it not? A. Yes, it did.
Q. Please tell me a little bit about how your county became involved in looking at Henry Lucas as a suspect in the death of Rashell Ward.
A. The Tehama County Sheriff’s Department received information - - and I do not know from what source - - that MR. Lucas was in custody, that Mr. Lucas was confessing to having committed numerous killings throughout the country. He had indicated that he had been on the West coast, and as a result of that, there was a contact made between sheriff’s office investigators and Mr. Lucas in - - I believe in 1983.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. And those investigators were William Cashdollar? A. That is correct.
Q. And who? A. Ellen Groves.
Q. And based on that, did they begin to investigate the possibility of Henry Lucas killing Rashell Ward? A. They investigated that possibility. They came back here, interviewed Mr. Lucas.
Q. When was that? A. In 1983. I believe in August of 1983.
Q. Would that have been in Montaque County, Texas? A. Yes.
Q. All right. What else did they do? A. They went to Tucumcari, New Mexico, where a vehicle had been - - had apparently broken down that had allegedly belonged to Mr. Lucas. They conducted a search of that vehicle along with the New Mexico authorities. Then they returned to California.
Q. And did they return to California with some evidence from that vehicle? A. That is my understanding, yes.
Q. And to your knowledge, did they return to
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
California with all the evidence that was in that vehicle? A. I believe that they did not. I believe some of it was left with New Mexico and some they took with them.
Q. All right. Now, upon checking that evidence from the vehicle, was there anything there to tie Henry Lucas to having been in Tehama, California, in March of 1983? A. Nothing that I’m aware of.
Q. Was Henry Lucas ever charged in your county with that death of Rashell Ward? A. He was not.
Q. There came a time when you did a followup investigation on Henry Lucas’ involvement, wasn’t there? A. There was.
Q. Now, at that initial investigation was there any work done on Henry Lucas’ actual whereabouts in March of ’83?
A. Well, it was my understanding that the sheriff’s department had attempted to place Mr. Lucas in California during that period of time and had been unsuccessful in doing that.
They had interviewed Mr. Moore, Rueben Moore
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Who indicated that Lucas had not left Montaque County during the period of time that we were interested in, to wit, March of 1983. They were unable to place him in California during that period of time. And I’m not aware of what other investigation they conducted between then and February - - approximately February of this year when I became involved in the investigation.
Q. Now, back to that initial involvement of Henry Lucas, didn’t he confess to those detectives in - - while he was in Montaque County twice? A. I was informed that he had confessed.
Q. And he gave an initial confession that admitted killing Rashell Ward and gave some - - quite a few crime scene details, didn’t he? You have seen that? A. He admitted killing Rashell Ward and he gave some details concerning the crime, yes.
Q. And then the detectives went to New Mexico and then they came back to Montaque County to interview him a second time, didn’t they? A. That is correct.
Q. And the second interview didn’t go quite as well as the first, did it? A. Well, I have reviewed the transcript of the
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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Interviews that were conducted by those investigators and - -
Q. Please describe the two transcripts to the Court, you impressions of them.
A. My impression or my opinion after reading the transcripts was that Mr. Lucas really had no facts concerning the crime. The facts that he related were facts that had been related to him.
Q. By the interviewing detectives? A. That is correct.
Q. And as a matter of fact, in that second interview with Henry Lucas he gave even fewer details than he did in the first interview? A. That is correct.
Q. Now - -
A. In neither of them - - There actually were three interviews, two of them conducted the same day and then one two days later that I reviewed. And at no time in any of those interviews did Lucas indicate - - was he able to say or did he say how Rashell Ward died.
He gave - - He said he had either strangled, stabbed or shot her. He ended up in the third interview finally saying he had shot her. He gave the wrong location of the bullet wound.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. Wrong type of gun? A. Well, he vacillated between a .22 and a .38. I think he finally agreed upon it being a .38 caliber gun.
Q. Henry Lucas came out to California to go to that crime scene, didn’t he? A. He was brought to California, I believe it was, in August of ’84.
Q. By the Texas Rangers? A. Yes.
Q. When he was in California, who were his California escorts in addition to the Texas Rangers? A. There were investigators from the California Department of Justice.
Q. Is that like the attorney general’s office or the Department of Public Safety here in Texas? A. It is a branch of the attorney general’s office.
Q. Is that like the state police? A. Well, they are not a state police, but they are a branch of the attorney general’s office. They have statewide jurisdiction. Generally they do not become involved in investigations except upon request of the local authorities.
Q. Now, Henry Lucas came to your county to go
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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to the crime scene of - - What was the victim’s name, Rashell Ward? A. Rashell Ward.
Q. And was that at your request? A. I was not aware - - No, it was not at my request.
Q. Were you even aware that Henry Lucas was going to come do this in your county? A. No, I was not.
Q. When did you become aware that Henry Lucas was being brought to Tehama County by the Texas Rangers and the California Department of Justice people? A. I was not aware that he had been there until the day after or a couple days after he left.
Q. Did he try to take them to that crime scene? A. I have reviewed a sheriff’s office report that indicates that he was taken to the crime scene.
Q. And gave a confession to how he killed her there? A. He indicated that that was the scene of the killing. He indicated the position of the body, and I don’t recall if he gave any other details of the killing.
Q. He said he killed Rashell Ward there,
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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didn’t he? A. Yes, he did.
Q. And did you find out the way in which that trip to California was handled? I mean, did you find out from talking to other officers the number of persons on that trip or the manner of transportation or the manner of treatment of Henry Lucas? A. Somewhat.
Q. Please describe that to me.
A. I was - - When I contacted - - When I found out that Mr. Lucas had been in the county, I contacted the sheriff’s office. I questioned them regarding why he had been brought there, why I had not been notified. And I was informed by them that they were notified at the last minute that he was being brought to the county, that they were not allowed to have any personal contact with him although Groves did accompany them as they traveled around the county with Mr. Lucas, that there was a state agent, Department of Justice agent and Mr. Prince from the Texas Rangers. They were not allowed to ask Lucas any questions. The questioning was done by Prince from the Texas Rangers. They were not allowed to ask Lucas any questions. The questioning was done by Prince and by the California state agent, that they were told that Mr. Lucas did not want to talk to them. That he was becoming very agitated, very
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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touchy, and they were afraid that if the local authorities talked to him he might stop cooperating in the investigation.
Q. In essence, the local agencies in California were told by the Texas Rangers that they were not to be allowed to interview Henry Lucas regarding crimes in their jurisdictions. Is that correct? A. It was my understanding that the Tehama County Sheriff’s Department was told that when Lucas was brought to Tehama County.
Q. That the only people that - - to be allowed to really interview Henry Lucas were the Texas Rangers and for him to be accompanied by them and by the state officials from California? A. During that trip, that is correct.
Q. Now, did you believe that confession of Henry Lucas’? A. No, I did not.
Q. So what did you do? When you, as district attorney of that county, questioned that confession, what did you do to follow up on it to see whether or not it was true or false? A. I came to Texas - - I became involved because some allegations were made that an ex-sheriff who was pending a state appointment to the Board of
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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Corrections in California had actually been involved in the murder of Rashell Ward and another murder. And that - - At that point in time, I became involved actively in the investigation.
I connected, or, rather, I received a call from Phil Ryan from the Texas Rangers in the latter part of March of 1986 or the first part of April. He told me he had been contacted by a private investigator in California inquiring about the Henry Lucas case, specifically his connection with Rashell Ward. And in that phone conversation, he, Phil Ryan, informed me that he had made contact with Lucas at the House of Prayer on the 4th of March, 1983, and that he felt it was in his notes but he had not yet located his notes. He told me he would continue to try to locate those notes.
He called me back a few days later, maybe a week later, informed me that he had located the notes and he had, in fact, talked to Henry Lucas on the 4th of March at the House of Prayer in Montaque. I guess that’s in Montaque County.
Q. That’s correct.
A. At that point we made arrangements with Doris Sipes or I contacted Doris Sipes, asked her to contact Lucas to determine whether Lucas would talk
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
To me. She called me back and said he would. My investigator, Mr. Kinatzer, and I came to El Paso. We interviewed Mr. Lucas for some time on the 15th of April of this year.
On the 16th of April, we interviewed Mr. Moore in Montaque County and then we returned to California.
Q. Based on that interview with Henry Lucas and based upon your interviews with Mr. Moore in Montaque County, do you have any opinion as to whether or not Henry Lucas killed Rashell Ward in Tehama County, California, on March 4th, 1983? A. Yes, I do.
Q. What is that opinion? A. In my opinion, Henry Lucas had nothing to do with the death of Rashell Ward.
Q. Based on your conversations with Rueben Moore, do you have an opinion as to where Henry Lucas was on that date? A. Yes, I do.
Q. What is that? A. In my opinion, he was at the House of Prayer in Montaque County. And that’s based not only on Mr. Moore’s statements to me. He detailed their activities and Lucas’ activities from the time lucas
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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was released from jail, I believe, in 1982 until he was - - until he left in June of 1983. It was based upon those details, that conversation and Ranger Phil Ryan’s statement to me that he had, in fact, seen Lucas in Montaque County on the 4th of March, 1983.
Q. When you spoke with Rueben Moore, was he certain that Henry Lucas never left Montaque County until June 4th, 1983, with the exception of maybe a brief few-hour trip? A. He informed us that Lucas was physically present there all of the time except form one overnight period.
Q. And that overnight period would have consisted of leaving at dark and coming back early in the morning. Is that correct? A. That’s what we were informed, yes.
Q. And that period that you’re saying that Rueben Moore was certain that Henry Lucas was in Montaque County includes the date May 27th, 1983, does it not? A. Yes, it would have.
Q. Now - - So as you testify here today, you’re certain that this citizen accused had nothing to do with the murder of Rashell Ward in your county? A. That is correct.
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Q. How much has it cost your county in time and money to investigate the bogus confession of Henry Lucas to that murder? Do you have any idea? A. I have no idea.
Q. Would it be - - It was quite an extensive investigation, was it not? A. It would be several thousand dollars. It involved a trip by Cashdollar to - - and Groves to El Paso, to New Mexico. Cashdollar attended a conference, I believe, in Louisiana, another one in Sacramento regarding the Lucas confessions, the whole Lucas saga, and they probably spent five or six months actively investigating the Lucas phase.
Q. Henry Lucas confessed to killing other people in Tehama County, didn’t he? A. Not that I’m aware of.
Q. Did he confess to dumping any bodies there that you-all were not able to find or anything of that nature? A. Not in Tehama County. He confessed to some killings in other locations in California.
Q. Do you know if he is charged with any of those crimes? A. Not to my knowledge, he isn’t.
Q. Do you know if any of those crimes have been
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similarly disproved in the manner in which you have been able to disprove his confession? A. I have been informed that he is not - - that he is no longer a suspect in these crimes.
Q. So to your knowledge, Henry Lucas is no longer a suspect in any murders in California? A. To my knowledge.
MR. PONTON: I pass the witness, Your Honor.
BY MR. MOODY:
Q. How are you doing today? A. Fine.
Q. In relationship to this case, the fact that Phil Ryan, a Texas Ranger, would have been or was capable of saying in your case that, “I saw Henry Lucas in Montaque County on the very date if your-all’s offense,” was that more - - was that a critical factor in your case? A. He said he had seen him the day following - -
Q. Pardon me? A. - - the date of the murder in our county, and, yes, it was an important factor.
Q. As far as giving credibility to testimony, you would have felt or would you have felt more
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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concerned with a law enforcement officer testifying as an alibi than as a layperson?
You have probably tried cases where alibi has been a defense before, coming up against a law enforcement officer saying one thing versus a layperson. I’m not trying to say that laypeople are less truthful than law enforcement officers, but, I mean that would present a different problem from the prosecution standpoint, don’t they? A. Well, I would be more inclined to accept the police officer’s testimony in terms of his ability to perceive and his ability to recollect or - -
Q. Because they pay closer attention to detail like that? A. That’s true.
Q. Of course, in our case, Ranger Phil Ryan has not said that. In fact, he has to the contrary. He does not know if henry Lucas was in El Paso - - Pardon me - - if he was in Montaque County on May 27th, 1983, or not. He may or may not have been. He didn’t - - was not in that area, did not - - was not - - did not check on him that day or in that time period.
The fact that if - - excluding the Phil Ryan testimony from your case, if you would have been more - - if you would have been involved in their part of the
Page 2677
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Investigation and Henry Lucas had given a confession in the Rashell Ward case saying that, you know, “I did kill her,” give a much better details than he did on the way the murder was committed and had some very small, intricate, precise details of the case right, but then your police officers went ahead and asked him, you know, what happened to the stolen - - you know, let’s say that she - - let’s assume she had some jewelry taken from her and that jewelry - - and your police officers asked what did they do with it, “What did you do with it, Mr. Lucas;” “Well, I sold it at a truck stop here in Tehama County” - - in fact the - - I don’t know what kind of truck stops you have there, but let’s say a Standard truck stop on a road, “Well, please describe to us the people that you sold it to,” and then, in fact, you went out there and you talked to some of the waitresses and two of them were able to identify Henry Lucas, some of the property that was sold was recovered, family members then relate back that property just like that looked - - you know, that the jewelry, you know, they couldn’t exclude it to the exclusion of all other jewelry, because, obviously, let’s say, it wasn’t unique jewelry, it wasn’t signed or anything but jewelry like that was sold by Mr.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Lucas there the day - - or the day after the murder in your county, would that have made you feel more comfortable with a case - - with the case, him supplying details that were unknown to the police? A. Well, Lucas never supplied any details in our case that were not known to the police. As a matter of fact, he could not supply details that were known.
If I could have - - If I had had credible evidence to show that Lucas was, in fact, in Tehama County on the 3rd of March, 1983, I would have taken a stronger look at Henry Lucas. His confession in no way convinced me that he knew anything about the Rashell Ward death.
Q. You probably don’t even know what I was driving at, but I was kind of giving you a scenario on our case here in El Paso County in May 27th, 1983, at least viewed from the state’s standpoint.
Just like in any case, as a prosecutor you look to try to corroborate evidence of a confession when you get one, do you not? A. Yes.
Q. When you get the corroborating evidence, that makes you much more convinced that the information is correct, does it not?
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
If I have a confession and I have corroborating evidence, certainly I feel more comfortable with the confession.
Q. You have convicted probably many people who have had alibi defenses, have you not? A. I have convicted people who have presented an alibi defense, yes.
Q. And if you had corroborating evidence behind your confession, you would not be afraid to prosecute simply because there was an alibi, would you? A. It would depend upon the caliber of the confession.
Q. Right. Depend upon the caliber of the confession and the caliber of the alibi? A. True.
Q. Was it coming from friends, was it coming from relatives, could it be documented with actual pieces of evidence, their alibi. Correct? A. Um-hum.
Q. You would look at all those factors. But it is nothing strange or unusual for you to have to fight an alibi defense, is it? A. Oh, no.
Q. And it’s nothing strange or unusual that you try to corroborate your confessions; I’m sure you do
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
try to do that in California? A. We do, yes.
Q. Now, you don’t - - you’re not in constant contact with all the other law enforcement agencies in California to be certain that none of the other cases in California is Henry Lucas even a suspect in, are you - - or are you? A. No, that is just my understanding.
Q. Okay.
A. I have not had personal contact with other agencies regarding Henry Lucas cases.
Q. And, of course, I’m sure as a prosecutor you would agree that each case would certainly need to stand or fall on its own merits? A. Certainly.
Q. You’re not here to pass judgment in the El Paso case, are you? A. No, sir.
Q. You’re certainly not here to tell the Judge that just because Rueben Moore and Faye Moore say that Henry Lucas was in Montaque County on May 27th, 1983, that the district attorney should just dismiss his case and give up here, are you? A. I am in no way indicating that I am indicating what the district attorney in El Paso
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
County should do.
Q. You’re aware that - - Even I don’t know what your perception of Rueben Moore was, but you’re aware that Rueben Moore may not - - there is three possibilities. He was telling the truth, he is right; he is lying or he is mistaken. He may be telling the truth as he believes it, but he just isn’t right, he doesn’t remember it correctly.
A. Well, those three possibilities are always present with a witness. Rueben Moore impressed me as being a credible person when I interviewed him.
Q. However, I don’t think - - or did you know that at the time that he was - - in May of 1983 when he was - - when he is mentioning the fact that Henry was there all the time and he was - - very carefully saw him and knew where he was and knew his whereabouts, were you aware of the fact that he was going through some very difficult personal times himself, that he was going through a very - - and it’s not to cast any aspersions on him because it happened to a lot of people - - but he was going through a very difficult divorce, went through a very personal period of hardship in his life and were you aware of that? A. No, I was not aware of that.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. And is it not a fact that when people are going through periods like that they are much less interested in, you know, maybe other people’s problems or whereabouts than they are of their own personal problems? Would you concede that fact? A. I would have to say it would depend upon the person, the individual. I don’t know what effect that might have had on Rueben Moore.
Q. All right. In your case were you stating that you believed that it was your local law enforcement officials that were giving Henry Lucas the information that he did get correct? Apparently he got very little correct but- -
A. It was my impression from reading the transcripts of the interviews of the tapes that someone had given Lucas information regarding the crime prior to the time our investigators arrived.
Our investigator gave him the rest of the information. They showed him an individual photograph of Rashell Ward and asked him if that is the girl he killed, and they showed him a photograph of the crime scene, pointed out the grass, the bridge, the water. In that photograph the crime scene included a photograph of a body lying there. They
Page 2683
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Suggested to him that he had shot her with a .38.
Q. So - -
A. There were just a series of things like that.
Q. Your dissatisfaction of the case was more or less based on what your officers had given to him rather than maybe what the Texas Rangers - - or the Texas Rangers had given him. Is that correct? A. That’s all I’m aware of. In my opinion, somebody gave him some information before our investigators got here such as the fact that Rashell Ward was a school girl, she was 14 years of age and that she had been abducted somewhere in the vicinity of the school. I don’t know who gave him that information.
Q. Yeah.
A. But it appeared that he had it when he started to talk to our people. Our people - - I’m totally dissatisfied with the way our people conducted it because they gave him all the information that was necessary.
Q. Right. And that would not be the proper way to do an investigation? A. Not in my opinion.
Q. Now, in dealing with - - if you assume that you did have, for a moment, you would capture a mass
Page 2684
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Killer out in Tehama County, California, an alleged mass killer who may have been saying he killed, you know, 30, 40, 100 people throughout the United States, the actual interrogation process of a person like that would in some degree be different than when you’re just questioning a person who has only killed one person because you - - Or maybe not. I don’t know. Let’s see if you agree with this scenario.
You have got - - If a person has killed a number of people over a span of time, they are liable to get some of their facts and details jumbled and confused between one case and another. Would you concede that? A. Possibly.
Q. And to get them started, you couldn’t just start the interrogation with, “Well, tell me everything you have ever done and who you” - - It might be a good place to start it, but if there were cases that looked like the defendant may have committed, you might have to get to saying, “Well, how about in the state of Illinois? How about in the state of California?”
When you’re getting down to an actual victim, I don’t agree with showing crime scene photos, but you might want to show an individual photo or photo
Page 2685
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Lineup just to clear your mind whether or not, you know, you have got a case here, “Do you think you killed this person?”
And if he says, “No,” fine. If he says, “Yes,” okay. Then, maybe you would go into some details. You might have to give him a few details to get started and then see if he could get the rest of it right.
Would that be totally bad, do you think, in the handling of it? A. If I were handling that type of a situation, I would ascertain simply whether or not he was claiming to have killed people in certain locations. I would not question him regarding those crimes. I would call the local authorities from those areas and say, “Here is what I have got. I have got a fellow who is saying that he killed somebody in your area. Are you interested in talking to him?”
Q. Right. And let them - -
A. And let them do it.
Q. - - and let them come down and do their interview. In other words, you would act maybe as a coordinating agency to at least, you know, you would have him in your custody so they could, if they wanted to come down and talk to him they could, and
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Then they would run their own investigation the way they see fit?
A.Yes.
MR. MOODY: All right. No further questions.
MR. PONTON: we have no further questions, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Call your next witness.
MR. PONTON: Robert Conaster.
ROBERT J. CONASTER,
Having been first duly sworn by the court to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, was examined and testified as follows:
BY MR. PONTON:
Q. What is your name? A. Robert J. Conaster, C O N A T S E R.
Q. How are you employed? A. I’m chief investigator for the County of Tehama in the DA’s office.
Q. How long have you been chief investigator? A. For 11 years.
Q. How long have you been in law enforcement? A. 22 years.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. What was your involvement in law enforcement prior to being the chief investigator in the Tehama County District Attorney’s office? A. I was a detective for the City of West Covina in the Los Angeles County Police department.
Q. As a detective in Tehama County for the district attorney, did you have occasion to investigate the death of Rashell Ward? A. I Was not involved in the original investigation.
Q. Were you aware that in the initial investigation - - she died on March 4th, 1983? A. 3rd.
Q. March 3rd, 1983. And in the initial investigation there were no - - you were not able to apprehend any suspects initially. Is that correct? A. That’s correct.
Q. There were some witnesses, however, that gave you enough details to be able to make a drawing of a suspect. Is that correct? A. That’s correct.
(Defendant’s exhibit marked, D-31.)
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) I’m going to show you what I’ll mark for identification purposes of this testimony as defendant’s Exhibit 31, and this would
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
be a copy of portions of the Rashell Ward murder investigation.
And here on the front of this, can you identify this drawing on the front of this Defendant’s Exhibit 31? A. That’s a composite of the suspect description as given to the sheriff’s office by a witness.
Q. And can you read the description that is written here on the right-hand corner of that drawing here?
A. It’s early 30’s, 190 pounds, six-foot tall, husky build, dark brown hair, lots of hair, beard and mustache, dark clothing and wavy hair.
Q. And on the upper left corner of that drawing is there a Xerox copy of a small photograph of Henry Lucas? A. Yes, there is.
Q. Does Henry Lucas appear in that photograph the way he appears here in court today? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And is Henry Lucas in court today? A. Yes, he is.
Q. Is he the gentleman seated over here by himself at the defense table?
Page 2689
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Yes.
MR. PONTON: May the record reflect that this witness has identified the defendant herein, Your Honor? THE COURT: It will so reflect.
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) Mr. Lucas has no beard, does he? A. No.
Q. His hair, though wavy, is not too long, is it? A. That’s correct.
Q. Now, in your investigation of whether Henry Lucas was involved in the death of Rashell Ward, did you have occasion to follow up on where Henry Lucas was in March of ’83 and then to talk with Henry Lucas as to whether he committed this murder? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And please tell me briefly what that investigation was and what it uncovered.
A. The district attorney, Jim Lang, and I traveled to El Paso and talked to Mr. Lucas who told us he did not kill Rashell Ward and was not in California in March of ’83.
Then we traveled to Bowie, Texas, and talked to Rueben Moore, who is the minister at the House of
Page 2690
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Prayer, who advised us that Lucas had not left the Bowie area except for one night in March of ’83.
Q. And did you also find out that a Texas Ranger had been surveilling Henry Lucas during that period of time? A. I have no personal knowledge of that.
Q. Did you learn that from the report? A. From Mr. Lang.
Q. And did he tell you that Texas Ranger Phil Ryan was keeping his eye on Henry Lucas not only during March of ’83 but all the way until June 4th of when Henry Lucas left Montaque County? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You interviewed Rueben Moore yourself? A. Yes, sir.
Q. With the district attorney? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did Rueben Moore tell you that Henry Lucas remained in Montaque County continuously until June 4th of 1983? A. Yes, sir.
Q. With the exception of a brief overnight trip of a few hours’ duration? A. That’s correct.
Q. And was Rueben Moore certain about that?
Page 2691
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Yes, he was.
Q. And did you believe him to be credible when he was telling you that? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Please briefly look through the rest of Defendant’s Exhibit 31 and tell me if you can identify that as being true and correct copies of the investigative reports and confessions given by Henry Lucas regarding the death of Rashell Ward.
A. Yes, it is.
Q. The whole file contains the investigative report and confessions and things of that nature? A. Yes, sir.
Q. That’s not the complete file, but that’s substantial portions of it - -
A. Yes, sir.
Q. - - that you can tell. Is that correct? A. Yes, sir.
Q. When you talked to Henry Lucas in El Paso, did you believe him when he told you he didn’t have anything to do with killing Rashell Ward? A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. Did you believe him when he said he wasn’t in California on March 3rd, 1983? A. Yes, sir.
Page 2692
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. Did you review those confessions that Henry Lucas gave to detective Groves and Cashdollar? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do those confessions contain certain details of the crime? A. Yes, they do.
Q. They describe the victim and her age and approximate area where she was killed and things of that nature, don’t they? A. Yes, they do.
Q. Described some jewelry? A. I don’t recall the jewelry.
Q. Did you review the reports from when Henry Lucas came to your county and led officers to the scene where Rashell Ward was killed? Did you review those reports? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And those reports indicated that Henry Lucas did, in fact, do that; that he supposedly led the investigating officers to the scene of Rashell Ward’s death. Is that correct? A. That’s correct.
Q. And there while at the scene of her death he described certain crime scene details to them and made a confession to killing Rashell Ward. Is that
Page 2693
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
correct?
That’s correct.
Q. Are you satisfied not that Henry Lucas had nothing to do with the death of Rashell Ward? A. Yes, sir.
Q. How did Henry Lucas get the information to confess to killing her and how did Henry Lucas get the information to be able to lead the Texas Rangers and the California Department of Justice officers to the site of Rashell Ward’s death? Do you have any thoughts on that? A. I have no personal knowledge of where the information came from. There were suggestions made during the interview with the Tehama County Sheriff’s office that could have given Mr. Lucas information.
Q. What kind of suggestions? A. Oh, he was shown a picture of the crime scene, for one.
Q. By whom?
A. By the detectives from Tehama County.
Q. Do you know if the Texas Rangers suggested to that detective that he show those photographs to Henry Lucas? A. Not to my knowledge.
Q. Are you satisfied that any information Henry
Page 2694
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Lucas got about the Rashell Ward came from a police file or investigative report or from the mouth of the detective rather than from being involved in it? A. I feel a portion of that information was obtained through interviews with the detectives.
Q. Did you find out about Henry Lucas - - about the manner in which Henry Lucas came to Tehama County in the company of the Texas Rangers to go to that crime scene? A. I’m sorry. I didn’t - -
Q. Did you learn how he got there, who he was accompanied with and the manner of that trip? A. Only after the trip, because we were not advised when they brought him to Tehama County.
Q. Did you subsequently learn that the Texas Rangers had asked that local investigating agencies not have any contact with Henry Lucas regarding the homicides he was going to confess to?
A. I was advised that by Detective Groves.
Q. That’s what he had been told by the Texas Rangers. Is that correct? A. That’s correct.
Q. And so when Henry Lucas went out there without your presence or the district attorney’s
Page 2695
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
presence or the presence of some of the other officers that had greater knowledge about that crime scene, when he was out there with the Texas Rangers he confessed to killing Rashell Ward? A. That’s true.
MR. PONTON: At this time, Your Honor, I would offer Defendant’s 31.
MR. MOODY: Your Honor, I’m still going over it. I probably will not have any objections to it, but I did need to finish reading it. There are some spots in here I haven’t seen before.
THE COURT: Okay.
MR. PONTON: Pass the witness at this time, Your Honor.
BY MR. MOODY:
Q. The biggest problem in your case, sir, was the problem with local detectives giving too much information to Henry Lucas? A. Well, from reading the transcripts of interviews, I feel that they did give too much information to Henry Lucas. As far as any other agency, I have no personal knowledge of that.
Q. Like you said, you had no personal knowledge
Page 2696
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
that the rangers or anyone else gave him information but merely that your officers gave him information? A. That’s true.
MR. MOODY: No further questions.
MR. PONTON: We have none at this time, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Well, I’m going to let Mr. Moody review that, whatever it is. What are you trying to introduce here? MR. MOODY: It looks like the - - I don’t know. It looks like the case file or something for this Tehama County case of Rashell Ward.
THE COURT: Is that what you’re trying to introduce? MR. PONTON: Yes, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Thank you, sir.
Is this gentleman - - Is he willing to give you that file? Is that his file? MR. PONTON: I have already made a copy of it. He provided it to me and I believe - - I may be mistaken, but I believe that file or something similar to it has been provided to Mr. Moody.
MR. MOORDY: We have a similar copy to most of it. I’m just getting to the back part of it.
THE COURT: All right, Mr. Moody. We will
Page 2697
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Reserve any objection you have to it at this time. Let’s call the next witness.
MR. PONTON: Fran Dixon.
THE COURT: Who is this? MR. PONTON: Fran Dixon, Your Honor.
THE COURT: F R - -
MR. PONTON: - - A N, Dixon.
THE COURT: You better start winding down because you have got one hour.
MR. PONTON: I am, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Please have a seat in the witness chair, sir.
FRANCIS E. DIXON, JR.,
Having been first duly sworn by the Court to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, was examined and testified as follows:
BY MR. PONTON:
Q. What is your name? A. Francis E. Dixon, Jr.
Q. How are you employed? A. I’m a detective for the Maryland State Police in North East, Maryland.
Page 2698
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. Is that a town, North East, Maryland? A. Yes, it is.
Q. How long have you been with the Maryland State Police? A. Eighteen and a half years.
Q. How long have you been in law enforcement? A. Eighteen and a half years.
Q. In regard to your involvement with the Maryland State Police, has all of that time been in that part of Maryland? A. Yes, it has.
Q. Did you grow up in that part of Maryland?
A. Yes, I did. I have lived there all my life.
Q. You are a peace officer, I’m assuming, in the state of Maryland? A. Yes, I am.
Q. What are your duties with the Maryland State Police?
A. I’m a detective assigned to all types of criminal investigation, rape, murder, robbery, theft, fraud, any type of criminal activity.
Q. Now, did there come a time when you were alerted to a certain suspect in certain crimes by the name of Henry Lucas? A. Yes.
Page 2699
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. When was that? A. On June 23rd, 1983, I first became aware of Henry Lucas.
Q. And how was it that you became aware of Henry Lucas on June 23rd, 1983? A. We received a teletype from Ranger Phil Ryan of the Texas Rangers sent to us from Montaque County, Texas. In this teletype it told us that Henry Lucas was in their custody charges with homicide and he was claiming to have killed numerous other females in various parts of the country and claimed he had killed a young girl in Perrysville, Maryland, which is also in our area in Cecil County.
Q. Based on that teletype, Maryland, did you do some investigation as to whether Henry Lucas killed a girl in Perryville, Maryland? A. Yes, I did.
Q. What was the result of that investigation? A. We had no such homicide. We had no one missing, nothing at all.
Q. Yet Henry Lucas, according to the teletype, had confessed to Ranger Phil Ryan to killing that girl in Perrysville, Maryland. Is that correct? A. Yes.
Q. Now, did you call back to Ranger Ryan to
Page 2700
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Relay that information to him? A. I called Ranger Ryan that day, not to specifically relay that information to him. We did have one girl missing from Havre de Grace, Maryland, which is in Harford County on the opposite side of the river from our county. Because of that, I contacted the Havre de Grace police officer who was involved in that investigation, and he and I got together and called Phil Ryan in Texas.
Q. When you called Phil Ryan in Texas, tell me about that conversation and what took place.
A. Well, I explained - - we explained to him that we had a girl missing from Havre de Grace but none from Perryville and could we get some additional information on what Lucas was saying. And he said, “He is right here. Would you like to talk to him?” And he put Henry Lucas on the phone.
Q. Did you talk to Henry Lucas? A. Yes, I did.
Q. What did Henry Lucas tell you? A. Well, John Van Gotter, the officer in Havre de Grace, asked him if he had killed this girl that was missing in Havre de Grace, and he said yes, he did.
He asked him to describe the girl, and he
Page 2701
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Describer her with dark brown hair, brown eyes. She was, in fact, blonde-haired and blue eyes. He asked him what kind of vehicle she had been in when she disappeared. She was in a red Plymouth Duster, I believe it was. It was an ex- Coca-Cola fleet car, which is bright red and white, Coca-Cola colors.
Q. With that kind of Coca-Cola wave on the side? A. I’m not exactly sure of that, but that - - the way they painted their fleet cars, yes.
Q. How did he describe the car? A. He said it was a dark blue or a black car.
Q. And - - But he said he had killed this girl there in Havre de Grace? A. Yes, he did.
Q. Did he tell you he had killed anybody else up in your neck of the woods? A. He then said that he had also killed a woman, he thought, on a cliff overlooking a body of water where ships went by. And we have the Delaware - - or Chesapeake and Delaware canal which connects the Chesapeake with the port of Philadelphia, and there are higher banks along the canal so we felt that was probably the area he was talking about.
He told me he left a pickup truck there when
Page 2702
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
He murdered the girl, gave me the serial number of the truck and the color. Said it was blue and white.
The Chesapeake and Delaware canal runs through our are plus Delaware’s area, also, so as a result of that, I contacted the Delaware State Police in New Castle County, Delaware, police - - Newark Police Department in Newark, Delaware, and tried to identify a victim or see if they had any bodies recovered or pickups recovered in that area and again came up with nothing.
Q. And you ran down that serial number that Henry Lucas gave you, didn’t you? A. Yes, I did. I ran it through Maryland, Delaware, Pennsylvania, Florida and never could get any information on the serial number at all. I couldn’t come up with a registered vehicle with that serial number.
Q. Now, rather than being satisfied with your determination that Henry Lucas didn’t know anything about those crimes that he was confessing to, did you also initiate an investigation into Henry Lucas’ whereabouts? A. Yes, I did.
Q. And did you find out that he lived right in your part of Maryland?
Page 2703
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Yes, he did. His wife lives there, his family lives there right in our county.
Q. And did you go talk to them? A. Yes, I did.
Q. Did you talk to some people he worked for? A. Well, he worked - - the only person I would have talked to that he worked for would be his brother-in-law, Wade Kiser.
Q. All right.
A. He worked there in the junkyard with him.
Q. And when did Henry Lucas say these murders occurred that he committed in your jurisdiction? A. He didn’t give us any specific time or date but supposedly while he had been living in our area.
Q. And based on your talking with Henry Lucas’ wife and half-sister and her brother and your other investigation, did you determine that Henry Lucas lived up there for a period of time? A. Yes.
Q. What period of time? A. He was released from prison in Michigan on August the 22nd, 1975. And he left our area - - he left for short periods of time, a day or two at a time several times, but he left our area in February of 1979 and went to Jacksonville, Florida, and did
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
not return again until 1981.
Q. And when was it that you determined that Henry Lucas was in North East, Maryland, or across the river in Delaware for those four years? A. When did I determine that? Q. Yes. When did you determine that, based upon your personal investigation? A. Well, I talked to his wife, Betty Crawford, on July - - I’m sorry - - on June the 23rd, the day I received the information from Texas.
I first went to Havre de Grace and met with Sergeant Van Guilder and left there and went to Betty Crawford’s residence. At 1925 hours is when I contacted Betty Crawford on June 23rd, 1983.
Q. Did you have any trouble - -
A. At that time - - I’m sorry.
Q. Go ahead. I didn’t mean to interrupt you. I’m sorry. Please continue.
A. At that time she gave me basically a rundown of Henry Lucas, when he - - how he got there, when he got there and her marriage to him and how long they stayed and lived together, et cetera.
Q. Had she been contacted by Texas Rangers prior to your contact with her? A. No.
Page 2705
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. Now, did you have any trouble finding her and the rest of Henry Lucas’ family? A. No.
Q. And they readily told you that they could confirm Henry Lucas’ presence in the corner of Pennsylvania, Maryland and Delaware for that four-year period? A. Yes.
Q. Now, did you have any further contacts with the Texas Ranger Phil Ryan or any of the Texas Rangers after you determined where Henry Lucas lived for those four years? A. I sent a teletype to Phil Ryan.
Q. Excuse me.
MR. PONTON: Just a minute, Your Honor.
THE COURT: You go right ahead.
I sent a teletype to Phil Ryan in Montaque County, Texas, on July the 13th, 1983, advising him that we had conducted an investigation in our area and we were unable to conform any homicides or missing persons as reported by Lucas. And I sent him a copy of our report - - my report of investigation.
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) Did that copy of your report of an investigation show the work you had done to locate Henry Lucas’ actual whereabouts for that
Page 2706
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
four-year period? A. Yes, it did.
Q. And you sent that to him in July of 1983? A. Yes, I did.
Q. Did you ever hear anything back from Phil Ryan? A. No, I didn’t.
Q. Did you ever hear anything back from the Texas Rangers for a long time? A. I got a call from Bob Warner, I believe, in 1985. That was the next time I heard anything from the Texas Rangers.
Q. Had you become aware in the meantime that Henry Lucas, while under the care, custody and control of the Texas Rangers and the Texas Ranger task force had confessed to hundreds of murders and that probably half of those occurred during the four-year period that you found out where he was, but they occurred at places other than North East, Maryland? A. Yes.
Q. You found that out? When did you find that out? A. I couldn’t be sure on that. It was televised national news. It was in a local paper at
Page 2707
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
home and so on and so forth. It wasn’t too long after I became involved in this investigation, a very short time.
Q. And - -
A. You know, within a week or so, I would say.
Q. Okay.
A. I don’t have an exact date when all that came to light.
Q. But then after you sent the report to Phil Ryan in July of ’83 that showed him who would say that Henry Lucas was in Maryland for that four-year period, you didn’t hear anything more from the Texas Rangers, did you? A. No, I didn’t.
Q. And this was at a time when you became aware that Henry Lucas was committing - - or confessing to committing numerous homicides around the country? A. Yes.
Q. Did you wonder why you hadn’t been contacted again by the Texas Rangers? A. Yes, I did.
Q. What was - - What were your thoughts regarding that? A. I was - - I couldn’t understand it. It was very frustrating to me, I guess. Not only the Texas
Page 2708
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Rangers, but other departments all over the country had that information.
Q. Other departments had that information? A. I received calls shortly after that from other departments. One specifically I remember was Denver, Colorado. Also gave them the information and still nothing. Nobody - -
Q. Did Denver ever tell you that they thought Henry Lucas had committed a murder in their county and they didn’t believe that he was up where you were? A. Yes.
Q. Despite your sending them your report that showed who would say that he was up there? A. Yes.
Q. Did they ever follow up on that? A. No.
Q. Did it appear to you that the Texas Rangers and these other jurisdictions just wanted to clear a case out of the mouth of the world’s greatest mass murderer? A. I wasn’t too sure what their objective was. It appeared to be that way. Again, I was - - I just couldn’t understand it. I can’t comprehend it. I still can’t.
Q. And this was information that you were able
Page 2709
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
To find the day you received a teletype from Texas and you were able to immediately follow u on it and had no trouble ascertaining witnesses who would establish Henry Lee Lucas’ alibi for a four-year period. Is that correct? A. That’s correct.
Q. You didn’t hear anything from the Texas Rangers until when, ’85? A. It was 1985, yes. It was while Michael Feary from the attorney general’s office was there.
Q. And he was up in your part of Maryland to investigate Henry Lucas’ whereabouts? A. Yes, he was.
Q. And was he the first official investigator from Texas to come to Maryland to ascertain the alibi of Henry Lucas? A. Yes, he was.
Q. And while he was up there, was he able to confirm what you had already done almost two years previously? A. Yes.
Q. And that was to confirm that Henry Lucas remained in Maryland, Pennsylvania, and Delaware for the four years of ’75 to ’79? A. Yes, he did.
Page 2710
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. While Mike Feary, the chief criminal investigator for the Texas attorney general’s office, was in Maryland, did you receive any phone call from the Texas Rangers? A. Yes, I did.
Q. Who was that phone call from? A. Bob Warner.
Q. Did you understand that he was chief of the criminal law enforcement for the Texas Rangers? A. Yes, I did. That’s what he told me.
Q. And what did Bob Warner, the chief of criminal law enforcement for the Texas Rangers, tell you in that conversation? A. He told me that we had - - in his words, “We have to put Ottis Toole and Henry Lucas together prior to 1979.” And I told him it was impossible, that we had no information of putting them together in Maryland. We didn’t - - No one in Maryland knew Ottis - - or Ottis Toole, however it’s pronounced, and that I could not do that.
Q. What did he - - Did he tell you why he had a problem? Did he tell you why it was so important that he put Ottis Toole and Henry Lucas together in Maryland prior to ’79? A. He said that they were having - - “We are
Page 2711
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Quite a problem down here in Texas,” that things were bad. And I knew basically what was going on, that things looked bad for them at that point.
Q. And in this telephone call or prior to this telephone call had you been able to ascertain for yourself whether Henry Lucas and Ottis Toole were together in Maryland, Delaware, or Pennsylvania? A. No. We had no information indicating they were ever together.
Q. And you tried to find that information, didn’t you? A. Yes.
Q. Because Henry Lucas was confessing to committing murders with Ottis Toole up there prior to February 15th of ’79 when he met Ottis Toole? A. Yes.
Q. And you were able to find information, were you not, that indicated that Henry Lucas and Ottis Toole first met in Jacksonville, Florida, on February 15th, 1979? A. Only through other investigators. I didn’t personally find that. We showed pictures of Ottis Toole to the family and talked to all of them, you know, persons that knew Henry while I was there, and nobody ever recognized him. They did not know him.
Page 2712
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
They said they had never seen him before.
Q. Now, when Bob Warner called you, did you get the impression that he also knew that Henry Lucas didn’t meet Ottis Toole prior to February of ’79? A. I’m not sure there. I don’t know how he felt about it. I’m not sure if he thought he did or not. His words to me is, “We need to put him with Henry up in Maryland.” And I told him we couldn’t. We had already been through that.
Q. Did you basically consider his request a request to you that you either lie or manufacture evidence to put Henry Lucas in Maryland prior to ’79? A. I was uneasy about the way that he approached me. I didn’t feel right about it.
Q. Would you characterize his request as a request that you either lie or manufacture evidence? A. I can’t characterize it. I felt uneasy about it. I can’t - - I don’t know what his intentions were.
Q. Was that - -
A. I can’t say it was a request for me to lie, if you understand what I’m saying. I didn’t - - I felt uneasy about it.
Q. Was that, however, the implication you felt at the time of that conversation? Page 2713
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
I felt that way, yes.
Q. Did you have any further contact with the Texas Rangers after that conversation? A. He called while I was not there around the same period of time, whether it was, you know, a day or a couple days or whatever and requested a copy of my report, talked to Trooper Pierce, who is one of the men I work with, and left his address, and I mailed him a copy of my report.
In the note left to me by Trooper Pierce, he was interested in statements from Betty Crawford indicating Henry’s presence in Maryland. That was what he was specifically interested in.
Q. He was - -
A. I mailed him a copy of my report.
Q. This was late in April of ’85? A. In that time period, yes.
Q. Now, that report that you mailed to Bob Warner in late April of 1985, was that a copy of the same report that you sent to Phil Ryan in July of 1983? A. Yes, it was.
Q. Do you have a copy of that report with you? A. Yes, I do. I have my copy of the report. Here is a supplemental to it.
Page 2714
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
MR. PONTON: I’m going to mark this for - - as Defendant’s Exhibit 32.
(Defendant’s exhibit marked, D-32.) Q. (BY MR. PONTON) This report that I’m handing to Mr. Moody, is that the original copy of the report that you prepared in July of 1983 regarding Henry Lucas’ whereabouts in Maryland, Delaware and Pennsylvania from 1975 to ’79? A. That is the investigator’s copy, which is a carbon of the original report. That’s what that would be. There is four copies to our report, the original, of course, being the hard copy.
Q. And that report or a copy of it was originally sent in July of ’83 to Texas Ranger Phil Ryan? A. Yes.
Q. And in April of ’85, Bob Warner in his second phone call to you asked for a copy of it? A. He specifically asked for a statement from Betty Crawford, if I could contact her and ask her where Henry was in, you know, in this time period that we are discussing and if - - or if I had already had a statement from her, to send to him. Because of that request, I sent him a copy of the report because everything he needed was in there.
Page 2715
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. Did you get any impression from him as to what he wanted from Betty Crawford? A. Just what she had told us is what I assumed, that Henry and her were married and living in North East, Maryland, Cecil County.
Q. And you knew as of June 23rd, 1983, didn’t you, that she would say that she was married to Henry Lucas from December of ’75 until late ’77 and that he had practically never left her sight except for a couple days? A. Yes, that’s correct. She told me that repeatedly.
Q. And in 1985 do you know if she had ever been contacted by Texas Rangers? A. No, I don’t.
Q. Did you talk to her in 1985? A. Yes, I have.
Q. When you talked to her in 1985, when was that? A. I talked to her numerous times in 1985, Mr. Ponton.
Q. Are you aware of her ever being contacted by any member of the Texas Rangers? A. No.
Q. Are you aware of Wade or Almeda Kiser,
Page 2716
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Henry’s half-brother - - half - - sister and brother-in-law, ever being contacted by the Texas Rangers? A. No, I’m not.
Q. They were given information about the Kisers in July of 83, weren’t they? A. Yes, they were.
Q. All the other information that you tracked down regarding Henry Lucas’s whereabouts, do you know if any of those other persons were ever contacted by the Texas Rangers? A. No, I don’t.
Q. To your knowledge, they were not? A. To my knowledge, I can’t - - you know, they may have been called on the phone or something, but to my knowledge, no.
Q. You did an intensive investigation, did you not, of every homicide that Henry Lucas said he was involved in in you part of Maryland. Is that correct? A. Yes. We have none.
Q. You have none? A. No.
Q. The homicide Henry Lucas confessed to committing never happened, did they? A. No.
Page 2717
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. And you’re satisfied as to that, aren’t you? A. Yes.
Q. Do you think Henry Lucas killed anybody in Maryland? A. Do I think he did? Q. Do you have any information? A. I have no indication that he did.
MR. PONTON: Pass the witness, Your Honor, subject to the introduction of this document, which Mr. Moody may want to go over.
BY MR. MOODY:
Q. All right. You said something about the fact that Mrs. Crawford mentioned to you the fact that she was with Henry Lucas night and day and she was keeping very close contact with him and watching him very closely. Right? A. Well, in her words, she couldn’t get rid of him, for the most part. He wouldn’t go to work. She couldn’t get him to work. He depended on her for support and et cetera. She left - - She said he had left one time and took a lady to Rhode Island. Together they went to Hurst, Texas, one time.
Q. Apparently she wasn’t watching him that
Page 2718
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
closely because he was able to apparently rape and molest and sexually harass her daughters, wasn’t he? A. That’s correct, when she went to work.
Q. Repeatedly? A. Yes.
Q. That these children were only, what, eight or nine years old? A. Yes.
Q. At the time that they were being molested by this man? A. Yes.
Q. That not only was he molesting them, but he was threatening to kill them if they ever mentioned anything about these sexual molestations? A. That’s right.
Q. When he was mentioning the fact back here to Ranger Ryan and yourself that he had molested children in Maryland - - Do you recall that, that he had sexually molested children in Maryland, young children? A. He said that he had picked up an eight-year-old girl in Perryville.
Q. Yeah.
A. And supposedly took her somewhere. I have heard two or three different stories from him on that.
Page 2719
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. You know, it’s not untrue that he did sexually molest an eight-year-old child in Perryville, Maryland, if you believe what these girls told you later? A. That’s correct. He did.
Q. And that this case, their molestation case never came forward until you started questioning them in 1983? A. That’s right.
Q. All right. I mean, is it so hard to believe that there may have been another girl molested in that Maryland area and it went unreported just as this went unreported? A. Well, the report was that she was kidnapped and murdered, you know, is gone, and we have no girls missing.
Q. Right.
A. He may have molested many young girls, but, you know, they are all there, as far as I know. Unless their parents never reported them missing, they are gone.
Q. Sexual molestation cases are very underreported in children, are they not? A. Yes, they are.
Q. There is no telling how many people that he
Page 2720
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
has done that over the years, is there? A. No, there is not.
Q. When he was giving you some details on people that he had murdered, many of these murders were many years ago. Correct? I mean, they had been in the time frame when he was in Maryland, ’75, ’78? A. Supposedly, yes.
Q. There is no way to tell that he hadn’t picked up a hitchhiker or somebody that you wouldn’t have any notice was actually missing and killed them and dumped them in some locality that you could never find any by the time you’re looking at it in 1983, you’re looking for who knows what? I mean, there is still a very possible - -
A. That’s very possible, Mr. Moody/
Q. - - that there could be dead bodies out in Maryland that you have never found? A. Yes, sir, I’m sure - -
Q. That this man would have killed? A. Yes.
Q. I mean, he is not a nice man. You don’t like him, do you, as a person, from what you have heard him? A. What I know of him, I don’t like him, no. I have never really met him personally.
Page 2721
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. Based on what you do know of him, that he has killed his mother, that he has sexually molested little children, he has the potential to kill people, does he not, and to sexually molesting women? A. I would think so.
Q. And when you talked to - - Was it Almeda Kiser? A. Yes, I have talked to Almeda Kiser.
Q. - - he had - - there was also the allegation there that he had sexually molested some of her stepchildren or her children? A. Yes, but I wasn’t aware of that until probably the latter part of ’84 or ’85 when I contacted her. I contacted Almeda numerous times with numerous police officers from other parts of the country and Mike Feary and so on and so forth, and she did not tell me that the first time I talked to her.
I found out that much later, that she had - - she said she had caught him with her - - her - - I don’t know whether she caught him, but her granddaughter had come to her and said Henry had done some things to her.
Q. And how old was that granddaughter at that time of the molestation? Page 2722
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
I believe she was - - I can’t tell you exactly. She was young, eight or younger, even. That’s when he stole Randy’s pickup truck and left. It was in that time period.
Q. So this man definitely in Maryland has a repeated history of sexually molesting little bitty children, doesn’t he? A. Yes. We don’t have - - You know, we don’t have a record of how many or anything like that or - - you say repeated history - -
Q. Well, you’ve got - -
A. I have people who tell me that.
Q. You have got Almeda Kiser - -
A. Right.
Q. - - and you then have got Mrs. Crawford? A. Yes. It would be in the same time period. I don’t know what you call history.
Q. And again both of those cases were never reported until much later? A. Yes, until I - - all this came to light in June of ’83.
MR. MOODY: Well, no further questions.
MR. PONTON: Do you have any objection to the introduction of this document, Mr. Moody? MR. MOODY: No, I don’t.
Page 2723
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
THE COURT: Be admitted.
Mr. Ponton, you may have it. I have no problem with that.
THE COURT: Mr. Ponton, who is next? MR. PONTON: I have one brief witness and I think I can finish in 15 minutes with him, Your Honor.
THE COURT: I’m running out of time, Mr. Ponton. Who is it? MR. PONTON: Mr. Mobley.
THE COURT: Mr. Ponton, if there is any secrets, you can tell them to us, too. Just get him out here. Let’s get it - - We are going to recess now or you get your witness out here.
MR. PONTON: Dick Mobley.
THE COURT: Go get him. I want you to make it brief.
MR. PONTON: I will, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Please have a seat in the witness chair, sir.
MR. PONTON: Mr. Mobley, we have 15 minutes. Please have a seat.
THE COURT: That means seven minutes. Seven minutes for you and seven for Mr. Moody.
MR. PONTON: That’s correct.
Page 2724
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
RICHARD G. MOBLEY,
Having been first duly sworn by the Court to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing bu the truth, was examined and testified as follows:
BY MR. PONTON:
Q. Mr. Mobley, please state your name.
A. Lieutenant Richard G. Mobley.
Q. How are you employed?
A. Criminal investigator of the sheriff’s department, Cecil County Maryland.
Q. How long have you been in law enforcement? A. Since June 6th, 1971.
Q. How long have you been with the sheriff’s department? A. Since June 6th, 1971.
Q. And as a sheriff’s investigator for Cecil County, Maryland, did you come into contact with a person named Henry Lee Lucas or some - - to follow up some investigation regarding Henry Lucas? A. Yes, I did.
Q. When was that? A. Pardon?
Page 2725
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. When was that? A. My first information on Henry Lucas was on October the 18th, 1982.
Q. And why was that? A. I received a teletype from Ranger Ryan from the Texas Rangers inquiring into the status of an outstanding warrant on the individual.
Q. Did you understand Texas Ranger Phil Ryan to be a Texas Ranger from Decatur, Texas, in north Texas? A. I believe Montaque County, if I recall.
Q. Montaque County was one of his counties. Now, what warrant was he inquiring about, Mr. Mobley? A. An outstanding violation of probation warrant.
Q. And what did he ask you about that warrant? A. Well, first of all, whether was valid and what it was for.
Q. What did you tell him? A. About the circumstances under which this was issued, the date of issuance and whether or not the state of Maryland would be willing to authorize extradition for Mr. Lucas.
Q. And in response to those questions, what did you tell Texas Ranger Philip Ryan? A. Well, nothing immediately. I contacted
Page 2726
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
state’s attorney, Mr. Paul Bidack, at that time, who has to authorize extradition for Cecil County.
Q. Did he authorize extradition? A. No, sir, he did not.
Q. Did he tell you that Cecil County, Maryland, was not extraditing Henry Lucas? A. Yes, sir, it was, because the only purpose of the issuance of that was he failed to make restitutional payments in the amount of 3,000-some-dollars.
Q. And based on that conversation with him, did you call back Texas Ranger Philip Ryan? A. I had him on hold at the time.
Q. Did you immediately tell him that there would be no extradition, that the warrant was moot or invalid at the time? A. No, I just told him extradition wasn’t authorized.
Q. When you say “extradition wasn’t authorized,” if it’s not authorized would an arrest under that warrant have been authorized? A. No, sir.
Q. And did you tell Texas Ranger Ryan that? A. Yes, sir, I did. It was in the mile system only, which is statewide. Was no the MCI system,
Page 2727
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Which is the system nationwide.
Q. Did you subsequently find out that Henry Lucas was arrested by Texas Ranger Ryan on that warrant? A. Not positively. I believe he was held on the strength of that warrant for a period of time.
Q. Was there any legal basis for holding Mr. Lucas on that warrant from your county in Maryland? A. Not on that particular warrant, no, sir.
Q. If he were arrested under that warrant, would that have been an illegal arrest? A. If that was the basis of probable cause for the obtaining of a fugitive warrant, yes.
Q. Now, you followed up some more investigation on Henry Lucas, did you not.
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Was that to determine whether he was involved in homicides in your area? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And what homicides did Henry Lee Lucas claim to have committed in your area? A. Involved an eight-year-old girl taken from Perryville, Maryland, from an area known as the Twin Oaks.
Q. Didn’t he describe that in some detail?
Page 2728
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Yes, sir, he did.
Q. How did you come into receipt of that information? A. I’m not exactly sure how I received the information. It was a rather large packet. I believe it was distributed from the Department of Public Safety in Florida to all law enforcement agencies, because the allegations include not only that but it included other ones throughout the United States.
Q. And did you investigate whether Henry Lucas had killed that eight-year-old girl that had been abducted from Perryville, Maryland? A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. Please tell me what you did to investigate that.
A. Well, first of all, the time frame in which this occurred was described as 1977, 1978, involving an eight-year-old girl, pigtails, from the Twin Oaks area, Perryville, Maryland, which is Cecil County.
We immediately went back and sandwiched that particular date by three years either way, ’75 on the far side of it through ’80 on this side.
Q. Yes.
A. We had no missing person’s report. Although
Page 2729
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
we do have concurrent jurisdiction in Cecil County with the Maryland State Police, we also inquired from them whether they had any outstanding missing person’s report for that particular time frame for any individual that would match that basic description. There were none.
Q. Are you satisfied that Henry Lucas did not commit that homicide? A. Yes, sir, I am.
Q. Are you satisfied that that homicide never even occurred? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you do some followup work on where Henry Lucas - - whether Henry Lucas lived in your jurisdiction? A. Yes, sir, he did.
Q. What was your findings on that, Detective? A. I would have to go back and forth and refresh my memory.
Q. Please do, very briefly.
Well, just to make it a little quicker, sir, you were able to have - - to engage in a personal investigation as to whether Henry Lucas lived in your jurisdiction? A. Yes, sir, he did.
Page 2730
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. And you found out that he lived up there from ’75 until ’79, more or less. Is that correct? A. Basically from the time he was released from prison in Michigan until February 1979 when he was involved in a theft of a vehicle from Randy Kiser, yes.
Q. And when were you able to find out that information, approximately what year, 1983? A. Yes, sir. It would have been during 1983, if you don’t want to be more specific than that.
Q. I don’t want to be more specific that that at this time for purposes of time.
Now, that information that you obtained regarding where Henry Lucas actually lived consisted of interviews with family members and places where he worked, things of that nature, didn’t it? A. That’s correct, yes, sir.
Q. You went and talked to some people at some mushroom farms? A. No, sir, I did not personally do that.
Q. But you were aware that he worked at some on that area? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And he worked at some dairy farms? A. I’m not personally aware of that.
Page 2731
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. But you became aware of that? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What did you do with that information? Did you ever share that information with the Texas Rangers or the Texas Department of Public Safety? A. Yes, sir. I have a roster of people that the information was shared with and the deeds and the method of distribution.
Q. Okay. Do you have a copy of that with you in your file? A. Yes, sir, I do.
Q. May I please see it? A. If you will bear with me for a minute.
Q. I certainly will, sir.
Q. Did you find it? A. Yes, sir.
MR. PONTON: And if I could just take this out of here, I’ll mark this as Defense Exhibit 32. Is that my number now? Defense Exhibit 33.
(Defendant’s exhibit marked, D-33.)
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) Now, on this Defense Exhibit 32, Mr. Mobley, you have listed here - -
A. That’s Mobley, sir.
Q. Mobley. I’m sorry, sir. I apologize to you.
And Mr. Mobley, the - - you have listed here
Page 2732
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
some contacts between certain persons and yourself. Is that correct? A. That’s correct.
Q. And this is - - are these items when you gave criminal information and alibi information about Henry Lucas to these persons? A. Yes, sir. Not the times but the dates.
Q. Okay. And this shows that you shared information with an attorney in Wichita Falls who is a DSP - - DPS perhaps? A. Delaware State police.
Q. Delaware State Police? A. Yes, sir.
Q. It shows that in 10-18-82 you talked with Ranger Ryan in Montaque County, right here? A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. And it shows that you talked with the FBI in June of ’83? A. That’s correct, yes, sir.
Q. And some other contacts. Now, were the Texas Rangers aware of Henry Lucas’ alibi up there in your part of Texas based upon your information? A. Yes, sir, they were.
Q. When, approximately? A. Well - -
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Yesr. Give me a year.
Sometime in 1983.
Q. And based in that information you provided the Texas Rangers in 1983, did you ever hear anything back from them, any followup report, any - -
A. No, sir, although I had numerous inquiries. But I don’t recall specifically what it was for. IO have had correspondence.
Q. And did the Texas Rangers ever go up there to your part of the country to follow up on the information you gave them? A. No contact with me. I had no contact with them personally involving followup on any of them.
Q. And you had personal knowledge at the time that Henry Lucas - - or knowledge from your investigation that Henry Lucas was present there at a time when he was confessing to committing murders all around the country? A. That’s correct, yes, sir.
Q. And the Texas Rangers never contacted you as to that information, did they? A. No, sir.
MR. PONTON: Pass the witness, subject to the introduction of Defense Exhibit 33.
MR. MOODY: We don’t have any objection to
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Defense Exhibit 33.
THE COURT: Be admitted.
MR. MOODY: And we don’t have any questions.
THE COURT: Thank you, sir.
We will adjourn until 1:00 on Monday.
(An evening recess was taken.)
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Editor's note: this is the official transcript and it runs verbatim, as the archive's rule for court records requires; nothing has been summarised or cut. Hugh Aynesworth is the Dallas Times Herald reporter whose 1985 investigation first demonstrated that Lucas could not have been where his confessions placed him, and whose work led directly to hearings of this kind. His sworn account of that reporting is here. This archive records Henry Lee Lucas with eleven convictions, around three of them regarded as credible, against some six hundred confessions; the questioning in these pages is part of the mechanism by which that gap opened. It belongs to the El Paso County case and the 120th Judicial District, not to the Clay County trial already published as TRANSCRIPTS FROM THE TRIAL OF HENRY LEE LUCAS. Nothing said under oath in a transcript is a finding of fact, and Lucas in particular said a great many things that were not true.