By Christi Punteney
The El Paso County hearing continues, transcribed from the official record: the conclusion of Henry Lee Lucas’s own grand jury testimony, followed by Charles Edward Fagan in two parts, Ted Everett and Bob Lemons. It runs verbatim. Pages 2101 to 2425.
THE STATE OF TEXAS )
)
VS. ) CAUSE NO. 43314-120
)
HENRY LEE LUCAS )
heard on
OCTOBMER 1, 1986
Page 2095
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
For the State: WILLIAM MOODY
First Assistant District Attorney
City-county Building
El Paso, TX 79901
RICHARD JEWKES
Assistant District Attorney
City-county Building
El Paso, TX 79901
CAROL PENNOCK
Assistant District Attorney
City-county Building
El Paso, TX 79901
For the Defendant: ROD PONTON:
Attorney at Law
Suite 505
Caples Building
El Paso, TX 79901
DORIS SIPES
Attorney at Law
1011 North Mesa
El Paso, TX 79901
Page 2096
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
WITNESSES PAGE
HENRY LEE LUCAS
Cont’d Cross-Examination by Mr. Moody 2010
Voir Dire Examination by Mr. Ponton 2251
Cont’d Voir Dire Examination by Mr. Ponton 2254
Redirect Examination by Mr. Ponton 2281
Voir Dire Examination by Mr. Jewkes 2288
CHARLES FAGAN
Direct Examination by Mr. Ponton 2299
Cross-examination by Mr. Moody 2321
Redirect Examination by Mr. Ponton 2338
Page 2097
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
ALPAHBETICAL INDEX
WITNESSES PAGE
CHARLES FAGAN
Direct Examination by Mr. Ponton 2299
Cross-Examination by Mr. Moody 2321
Redirect Examination by Mr. Ponton 2328
HENRY LEE LUCAS
Cont’d Cross-Examination by Mr. Moody 2101
Voir Dire Examination by Mr. Ponton 2251
Redirect Examination by Mr. Ponton 2281
Voir Dire Examination by Mr. Jewkes 2288
Page 2098
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
EXHIBIT DESCRIPTION MARKED IDENTIFIED OFFERED REC’D
D-26 A Notebook 2281 2451 2281
D-26-B Bill 2281 2282 2281
D-26-C Magistrate
Warning 2281 2282 2281
D-26-D Document 2281 2282 2281
D-26-E Money Order 2281 2282 2281
D-26-F Bluefield
Hospital
Records 2281 2282 2281
D-26-G Welfare
Records 2281 2282 2281
D-26-H Ryan Report 2281 2282 2281
D-26-I Letter 2281 2282 2281
D-26-J Receipts 2281 2282 2281
D-26-K Kiser’s Scrap
Records 2281 2282 2281
D-26-L Hoopes Dairy
Farm Records 2281 2282 2281
D-26-M Kaolin Mushroom
Farm Records 2281 2282 2281
D-26-N Police Reports 2281 2282 2281
D-26-R Cecil County
Records 2281 2282 2281
D-26-S Lucas Dental
Records 2281 2282 2281
D-26-T Leonard Kiser’s
Divorce Records2281 2282 2281
D-26-U Benjamin’s Trailer
Park Records 2281 2282 2281
D-26-V Maryland
Records 2281 2282 2281
D-26-W Maryland Title
Records 2281 2282 2281
D-26-X Marriage
License 2281 2282 2281
D-26-Y Letter 2281 2282 2281
D-26-Z Auto Records 2281 2282 2281
D-26-AA Paychecks 2281 2282 2281
D-26-BB Auto Insurance 2281 2282 2281
D-26-CC Receipts 2281 2282 2281
D-26-DD Letter 2281 2282 2281
D-26-EE Receipts 2281 2282 2281
D-26-GG Foodstamp
Records 2281 2282 2281
D-26-HH Records 2281 2282 2281
D-26-II School Records 2281 2282 2281
D-26-MM Work Records 2281 2282 2281
D-26-OO Foodstamp
Records 2281 2282 2281
D-26-QQ Payroll Checks 2281 2282 2281
D-26-RR Southeast Colorcoat
Work Records 2281 2282 2281
D-26-XX Pickup Order 2281 2282 2281
D-26-YY Florida School
Records 2281 2282 2281
D-27 Report 2300 2300
Page 2099A
THE STATE OF TEXAS )
)
VS. ) CAUSE NO. 43314-120
)
HENRY LEE LUCAS )
BE IT REMEMBERED that on the 1st day of October, 6, 1986, beginning at 9:15 a.m., came on to be heard the continuation of pretrial motions in the above styled and numbered cause, before the HONORABLE BRUNSON MOORE, Judge Presiding in and for the 12th Judicial District Court, and that the same was reported by Meryl Wersinger, Certified Shorthand Reporter and Notary Public in and for County Court at Law Number Four, El Paso County, Texas, and that the following proceedings were has a follows, to-wit:
Page 2100
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
BY MR. MOODY:
Q. Okay. We were going over some of the details in the videotaped confession and in those details, I was asking you where you had gotten some of that information.
Some of it you had said that you had gotten from Detective Perez and some of it you had gotten from Lieutenant Jerry Smith and some of it you had said you just got lucky and guessed right. Is that correct?
Yes.
Q. I think we have gone over height and weight, and they asked you about how many murders you had at that time and I think your response was, “I’d say 180, 185.”
That was of September 20th, 1984. That ended up being fairly close to the total that you actually cleared. Is that right?
That’s what the rangers said, yes.
Q. At that time you said, though, “I have still got a long way to go.” And they asked you, “How many total do you think there were?” And you were saying, “Way over 360.”
Why were you saying - - How did you come up
Page 2101
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
with a number like 360?
Well, if you’re talking thousands of people and all of them talking about different cases, why, it’s easy to come up with that number.
Q. Because El Paso isn’t the only place that you - - or the El Paso detectives aren’t the only people that you ever told that, you know, you had maybe over 300?
A. No, I told everybody that.
Q. You had around 300, 360. That seemed to be a fairly standard answer late in the investigation.
I think early in the investigation you centered in on about 100. Is that right? I think down in Montaque, I think that was - -
I think so.
Q. Now, when you said that you had three years of college in this videotaped confession, you had made reference to - - Is that what you were referring to, when you had been in prison and you would get some credits for courses and done things like that> Is that what you meant by college?
A. No, it wasn’t. It was just a false statement.
Q. Just false. I think you mentioned that to
Page 2102
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Other people, too, that you had college credits and then when I think you were really pinned down on it, you said, “Well, I mean, when I was in prison I got some credits toward things.” Is that what you were talking about? A. That wasn’t what I was talking about, but that’s a good enough answer.
Q. Then you talked about the car you were driving at the time of this murder, “Was driving a ’73 Pontiac Catalina.” That was the vehicle - - That would be true; that was the vehicle that you were trying to buy at the time. Right?
A. That’s one of the three vehicles that I used in the confessions, yes.
Q. And, of course, that was one of them that you used in your very late confessions because that car, you hadn’t even attempted to purchase that until what was it, March or April of ’83?
A. Yes.
Q. Somewhere in that time frame?
A. Yes.
Q. You never had the title transferred over to your name on that car, did you? A. No.
Q. And, in fact, you were supposed to be making
Page 2103
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
payments on that, weren’t you? A. I had made some, yeah.
Q. You had made an original down payment of something like, what, $100?
A. No, it was more than that.
Q. It was more than that? And you had - - you had made one partial payment for like $50?
A. Right.
Q. But at the time the car broke down in San Jon, you still owed money on the car, if I remember right?
A. Yes.
Q. So you hadn’t paid for it in its entirety?
A. No, I hadn’t.
Q. After that, I mean, you never really intended to pay for it?
A. Yes, I did, too.
Q. You did want to - - You were going to pay for it even if it was all broken down and you were in jail?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. How were you going to pay for it?
A. Well, after I got in jail, I couldn’t pay for it, but while I was on the outside, I could pay for it.
Page 2104
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. The fact of the matter is, you never have to this day paid for it,. And I’m not criticizing you for not paying for it, but you have not paid for the car?
A. Not yet, no.
Q. That car you were getting ready, you mentioned it here in your videotape that you were driving it and you drove it over to San Jon. In this its typed out and it says, “St. John,” but it’s really San Jon, New Mexico, just north of Tucumcari - - east of Tucumcari on Interstate 40. Correct? A. That is where it was left at, yes.
Q. Now, you had to do certain things to get that car ready, didn’t you? A. Yes, I did.
Q. And that’s some of the verification that we have gone back and proved like you had to go get your driver’s license? A. Yes.
Q. Which you did in May of ’83?
A. Yes.
Q. And then you had to get the car inspection made - - inspected. Right?
A. Yes.
Q. And did you actually go down and get the car inspected?
Page 2105
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Yes, I did.
Q. Do you recall who inspected the car for you?
A. I don’t remember his name. It’s there in Stoneburg.
Q. Okay. When he inspected the car, did he go ahead and did it pass the inspection?
A. Yes.
Q. When they do that - - When they do that, they put mileage on the inspection sticker itself, don’t they?
A. I guess so. I don’t know. I haven’t paid that much attention.
Q. You don’t know if they do that?
A. No.
Q. Do you recall him doing it that day?
A. I remember him looking in the car. That’s all I remember.
Q. They look at the odometer and see what it says and then they write it up on the - - they write t on the little inspection sticker and then they put that on the windshield. Right?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you see him looking in at the odometer in the car?
A. I seen him looking in the car, but I don’t
Page 2106
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
know what he was doing.
Q. Do you remember when you bought the car if it had over 100,000 miles or less than 100,000 miles on it?
A. I have no idea.
Q. So you never did pay any attention to what the mileage was on the car?
A. No.
Q. And that inspection sticker was obtained on, what was it, May 12th, 1983?
A. It was before I got the tag, but I couldn’t tell you exactly when.
Q. Now, did you have an opportunity there in - - when you were working on the car trying to get it all ready and cleaned up and nice - -
A. Yes I was.
Q. You were getting ready to take a trip?
A. I was.
Q. And the last thing that you needed to do to get ready to take a trip was the license plates?
A. I needed license plates, which I had Rueben Moore get me.
Q. That was the very last step that you needed to get the car ready for your trip?
A. No.
Page 2107
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. You needed something else to get your car ready?
A. Yes.
Q. What did you need to do?
A. I had to find out if it was going to run on the highway.
Q. Because all that time in May when you had it there, you were working - - you didn’t really go out and drive it anywhere?
A. No, I just drove around the area there. I drove back and forth to the store and back and forth up around the campground.
Q. But, I mean, that wouldn’t - - to the store was only just almost - -
A. A mile.
Q. Very closeby. So you wouldn’t have probably put, what, very few miles on that car?
A. I put a lot of miles on the car. Because like I said, I drove it around there in the House of Prayer, I’d drive it around in a great big circle, about a mile circle I don’t know how many times. I drove it for almost two months there.
Q. You drove it around in circles for hours at a time?
A. Right.
Page 2108
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. How many miles do you think you drove it in circles?
A. I have no idea in miles, but it was a lot because I had to adjust the transmission and I had to fix the bottom of the motor and stuff like that.
Q. There would obviously be people that would have seen you?
A. Yes.
Q. Driving it around? A. Yes.
Q. For days on end and hours and hours?
A. They would.
Q. Whatever. I don’t know how long you were driving it. But you never took it on any trips?
A. Not until I got the tags for it. Then I went on trips.
Q. Where did you go on that trip?
A. Dallas, Wichita Falls, to Gainesville, several different places around Montaque County there.
Q. Was this just one trip or several trips?
A. No, several trips.
Q. When was this?
A. After I got tags for it.
Q. Sometime after, you know, after that, May? It would have been late May. Right
Page 2109
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
I didn’t have legal tags on it until May 21st, if I remember right.
Q. May 21st or 22nd?
A. I was driving before then, because I got other tags and put on it.
Q. That’s when you were just driving around, down to the store and around the House of Prayer?
A. No, when I went out on the road.
Q. When you went on these other trips when you got that - -
A. I put a temporary tag on it.
Q. So after May 21st, you would take a few of these trips?
A. Yes.
Q. Would you be gone a day or so?
A. No, I wouldn’t go a day or so. I may go half the night or I may go all night. I would never go in the daytime so much.
Q. You could drive, you know, long periods of time without really resting?
A. I wouldn’t say real long. I mean, I have drove probably from Florida to Texas. I drove that without hardly any sleep, maybe just to take a break on the road. But that’s about it.
Q. So you made several of these trips in those
Page 2110
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
few days in late May and maybe early June?
Yes.
Q. And you’re saying those trips were to Dallas?
A. Dallas, Wichita Falls, Gainesville.
Q. Any others?
A. Well, like I say, I went all over Montaque County.
Q. Yeah.
A. In that area.
Q. Any other places outside of Montaque County other than this Gainesville, Wichita Falls, Dallas?
A. Not at that time, no.
Q. Not at that time. Now, did anybody go with you on these trips?
A. No. I always told somebody when I was going somewhere.
Q. Who would you always tell?
A. Rueben and Faye.
Q. Then you left, I guess, on what you say was June 4th of 1984?
A. Yes, 12:00 in the day.
Q. I think the defense attorney asked you about that trip, leaving, and he talked about, I think, was it you going out to New Mexico and then into Arizona and that - - Do you remember talking about that?
Page 2111
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
You asked me about that.
Q. Okay. He did ask you, though, about that trip?
A. No, he did not.
Q. He didn’t ask you about that? Let me see if I can find it. Just a second. Let’s see what he asked you about that.
When you were talking to your defense attorney on direct, I think you stated that it was on June 4th of ’83 that you left Stoneburg, that you had come there in May or June of ’82, that you had gone to Dallas and back. The only trip you had taken was in the spring of ’83.
On June 4th, you left there at noon. You asked Ruben to keep it, that being the gun.
Yes.
Q. You talked about the gun, keep the gun?
A. Yes.
Q. That you didn’t want to take it with you and that Rueben gave it to Faye. And then on June 9th, you returned to Stoneburg after the car had broken down in San Jon, New Mexico?
A. Right.
Q. So you did talk about that trip?
A. Briefly, yes.
Page 2112
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. Yeah, briefly. I would like to go into a little more detail about that trip.
You say you left about noon of June 4th of 1983?
Yes.
Q. From Stoneburg. Did anybody go with you?
A. No, nobody went.
Q. What did you take with you?
A. I took my suitcase, some clothes.
Q. Did you take anything else?
A. Some tools in case I broke down on the road.
Q. And then where did you go?
A. Mostly driving. I went from Stoneburg to Altus, Oklahoma, to - -
Q. Okay. Altus, Oklahoma. Okay. And - -
A. And I went from there to Amarillo.
Q. Where did you end up spending the night?
A. Just outside of Amarillo.
Q. So you went up there to Amarillo and you stopped up there?
A. Yes.
Q. You went to Altus, Oklahoma, and then to Amarillo. Is that all you went to that first day?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you pick up any people on that occasion
Page 2113
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
or - -
No.
Q. No one was with you that day?
A. No.
Q. Did you spend the night in the car or motel or - -
A. I spent the night in the motel, Sands Motel.
Q. There in Amarillo our just outside of Amarillo?
A. Outside.
Q. That would be the night of June 4th?
A. Yes.
Q. Then where did you go on June 5th?
A. Brady, Texas.
Q. Brady, Texas. Did you spend the day there?
A. Spent the night there in a motel.
Q. You didn’t go anywhere else other than just go straight from Amarillo to Brady?
A. Right.
Q. And you stayed at a motel there?
A. Correct.
Q. I think we have got that receipt. What was the name of that motel, do you remember?
A. O don’t remember, offhand.
Q. Then on June 6th, where did you go?
Page 2114
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Went from there to Austin to San Antonio.
Q. Went down to Austin, then to San Antonio. And where did you go from there?
A. I went to a pawn shop in San Antonio.
Q. Why would you go to a pawn shop in San Antonio?
A. Pawn some tools.
Q. Some of the tools that you had taken?
A. Yes.
Q. And then from there, did you spend the night in San Antonio or did you go on from there?
A. No, I went on back to Brady. And I think it’s 83. I’m not sure. Somewhere around 83, 87 there. I don’t know which cuts up to it.
Q. Okay.
A. I went from there, Brady, to Amarillo and hit 70 south.
Q. Wait a minute. Did you spend the night again in Brady?
A. No.
Q. So you went from Brady, Texas, to Austin to San Antonio, then back up to Brady and then where?
A. Then to Amarillo.
Q. Then into Amarillo. And where did you end up spending the night?
Page 2115
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Outside of Amarillo, slept in the car.
Q. Had you picked up anybody on this trip so far?
A. No.
Q. And then, like you said, you spent the night there. And June 7th, where did you go?
A. I went from outside of Amarillo to San - - not San - - Orangeville or something like that, at the state line in New Mexico. I remember it’s just across the state line into Arizona.
Q. You came from Amarillo and went all the way through New Mexico?
A. Yes.
Q. What highway were you traveling on?
A. On 70 until I hit Interstate 10.
Q. 70 to I-10. And you didn’t come through El Paso?
A. No, I went through Las Cruces.
Q. Did you come down through what was it, Hobbs, Clovis?
A. I don’t know what the names were. Clovis, I think, is the name of one of them. I came across White Sands, the missile range.
Q. Did you get up on I-10 in Las Cruses, went through Deming?
Page 2116
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Yes.
Q. And Lordsburg?
A. I stopped in Deming and sold some more tools.
Q. That was all on the 7th?
A. Yeah.
Q. Do you know where you stopped in Deming?
A. Yep.
Q. What was the name of it?
A. It’s just an auto place where they work on cars there.
Q. And then you went a little further. Okay, you went through Deming?
A. Went through Deming to - -
Q. Went through Lordsburg?
A. Went through to the state line. I was about a mile on the other side of the state line at the truck stop up there.
Q. There is a truck stop out there on the Arizona-New Mexico line?
A. Yes.
Q. That’s on Interstate 10?
A. Right.
Q. And then did you spend the night there?
A. No, I turned around and come back to Deming.
Q. Came all the way back to Deming. And did
Page 2117
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
you spend the night there in Deming?
After I called Rueben, yeah.
Q. Why did you call Rueben?
A. To get some money.
Q. Why did you need money?
A. Because I was broke.
Q. Were you out of gas by now?
A. Just about, yeah.
Q. And, what, you called him collect?
A. Yes.
Q. And then did you go ahead and spend that night waiting for the money to get there or - -
A. I had to wait quite a few hours for it to get there.
Q. You didn’t do any more traveling on June 7th?
A. I started out on June 8th, the next day, where did you go?
Q. I picked up a hitchhiker heading into Amarillo.
A. You picked up a hitchhiker?
Q. Yes.
A. And where did you pick him up?
Q. There at the Deming truck stop.
Page 2118
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. Okay. Do you remember his name?
A. No. He was heading for Oklahoma City is what he said, and he wanted to go as far as Amarillo.
Q. Could you describe him?
A. He is about your height, maybe a little more weight, a little heavier.
Q. So about 5’5”, maybe 180 pounds?
A. He was a little heavier than that.
Q. 200 pounds?
A. Very close to 200.
Q. Was he Anglo, Mexican-American, black?
A. No, he was white.
Q. How else can you describe him?
A. Sort of sandy hair, well dressed guy.
Q. Well dressed. What do you mean well dressed?
A. Well, he had on nice clean clothes, white shirt and dress pants, stuff like that.
Q. Then you came back. You were heading back to Stoneburg or where? How - -
A. No, I was going to go back to Stoneburg. And then on the way back to Amarillo is where I changed my mind about going back to Stoneburg.
Q. So then you drove back to - - you drove back up, what, through Las Cruces or how did you - -
A. Yes, through Las Cruces.
Page 2119
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. Back up again - -
A. Back up 70.
Q. Back up 70 and went up to - -
A. I think there is two or three other routes there after you get in towards Amarillo that you got to take to get on onto Amarillo. I don’t remember the exact routes, but, see, there’s two or three different routes.
Q. So you go into Amarillo and then what happened?
A. Well, I start having problems with the car.
Q. Was that hitchhiker get off there? I mean, he was trying to go to Oklahoma City.
A. No, because he couldn’t find a truck stop there. So I took him. I said, “The truck stop is on out this way, so we will go out this way,” so we ended up in San Jon - - San Juan or San Jon, whatever you call it.
Q. So that’s when your car breaks down heading west?
A. Yes, I just blew it up. Blew the engine up. That’s the last place I saw him, so I don’t know
Page 2120
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Where he went. The last time I seen him he was getting on a tractor-trailer heading out. I don’t know where he went.
Q. All right. Then do you remember, I think it was, Gene Ross said that you had said you had just been in El Paso. That is not correct?
A. It is not.
Q. The closest you came to El Paso was Las Cruces?
A. Yeah, but I didn’t know how far El Paso was from Las Cruces, so I couldn’t tell you how close I was.
Q. Now, after the videotape session was over, did you talk to - - did you talk to Benny Perez again in a post-videotaped interview?
A. We talked on - - They had talked quite a bit there about something, but I don’t remember right now what it was. We talked for quite awhile.
Q. Okay. That was the post-videotape. That was primarily on trying to pin down the - - this sale of property at the truck stop and what the waitresses looked like. Is that what you remember?
A. We had already done that.
Q. Okay. I thought yesterday that you said it was after the videotaped confession you talked some
Page 2121
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
More and gave some descriptions.
Well, he wanted some more descriptions. I couldn’t give him no more descriptions because I didn’t know nobody.
Q. Okay. So you had talked about it a little bit or you talked about it before the videotaping, and then you talked about it again a little bit after the videotape?
A. Yes.
Q. You can’t remember what more you talked about - -
A. No.
Q. - - after that? A. No, right now I can’t remember. We talked about some things, but I don’t remember what all we talked about.
Q. Would it have been the Apodaca case or something else?
A. No, it was about the Apodaca case, but I don’t remember what it was about.
Q. Then I want to go back to February 13th, 1984, trip to El Paso, which was your first trip here.
A. Yes.
Q. As far as with the rangers.
A. Yes.
Page 2122
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. That was the one where you arrived and you rode around in the van - -
A. Right.
Q. - - to different areas?
A. Right.
Q. And that particular trip, I think you - - didn’t you state yesterday you said that it was Greg Lucas who was driving?
A. The way I remember, he was the one that was driving.
Q. Yesterday you were real sure about that.
A. Yeah.
Q. Are you still that sure?
A. Yes, I’m sure of it.
Q. I mean, even though you have seen this other Detective Curt Flynn come in here and say, “I was driving the van. Greg Lucas was not driving the van. Greg Lucas was operating the tape recorder”?
A. It was Greg Lucas that was driving the van.
Q. So they have got that backwards?
A. They had the tape recorder laying right there in front of me, so I know that he was the one doing the driving.
Q. And Greg Lucas was saying, “I’m the one doing most of the talking”?
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
He was.
Q. He was doing most of the talking and driving?
A. Yes.
Q. And turning the tape recorder on or off?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, do you remember going out, like he said, east of El Paso, out to - - out past the Petro truck stop and the Union 76 truck stop?
A. Yes.
Q. And then going down what they called Horizon Boulevard looking for the location of where there had been one boy and one girl that had been killed out there?
A. Yes.
Q. And you simply had no idea where that scene was and you left that scene?
A. At that time I didn’t know where it was at.
Q. Okay. Did you ever know where it was at?
A. Yeah.
Q. How did you know where it was at?
A. Through a police officer.
Q. Who told you where the scene was on that? A. I don’t know, but I found out.
Q. Did you ever - - You went back out there again?
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Yes.
Q. When did you go back out on Horizon Boulevard?
A. The next trip down.
Q. You mean on September - - the September trip?
A. When he was driving around there, yeah.
Q. You went back out to Horizon Boulevard?
A. It was either September or October. I don’t remember exactly which one.
Q. At the time you did the videotaped confession and went to the Librada Apodaca house?
A. I think it was after that.
Q. The one in October, then?
A. Yeah.
Q. The one where you came down and testified before the grand jury?
A. Yes. It was that time that we drove around.
Q. Now, that was the time that you were riding around in the car with Benny Perez?
A. Yes.
Q. And you’re saying - - Did they take you out to that location or - -
A. No, I took them them because I knew the
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
location.
Q. You took them because you knew that location. How did you know that location?
A. From talking to the police officers.
Q. Now, you can’t remember which police officers you talked to that gave you the information exactly where - -
A. Well, between - -
Q. - - the site?
A. - - the van ride, between talking to the police officers on the phone, between talking to police officers that came to El Paso - - I mean, from El Paso to Georgetown, it was all in those.
Q. But somehow they told you where those bodies of those kids were found? A. Right.
Q. And did they show you pictures or how did they - - or did they just tell you?
A. No, they told me about it. They didn’t show me pictures.
Q. But based simply on being told where that scene was you were able to then go ahead a point it out in that October trip?
A. Yes.
Q. Even though when you had been out there, I
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Think, on the February trip, you had never really gotten all the way to that crime scene?
We passed it.
Q. You went by it?
A. Yeah.
Q. Of course, you didn’t know it was the scene then?
A. No.
Q. What was it near?
A. Near a roadside park.
Q. Are you sure we are talking about the same case? I’m talking about one that is off of Horizon Boulevard, not off of the interstate. There is a roadside park on the interstate.
A. There is a roadside park in back of the Phillip 66 service station, too, the truck stop. Q. There is one up there. And that’s - - So that’s the one you pointed out to them and said, “That’s where the bodies are”?
A. Right.
Q. How close did you get to exactly where the bodies were?
A. We didn’t get out and walk. I just told them about it.
Q. Let’s go back - - I still want to get back
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
to February 13th, the van ride. Coming back towards the Petro truck stop where you were going to have lunch - - where you did have lunch. Right?
They say that’s were it was at, but I don’t remember exactly. I don’t know.
Q. You’ve listened to, I think, the videotape, I mean, the audiotape and you have heard Detective Lucas and Detective Flynn testify about you saying - - they asked you about anymore murders and you point, “Well there is the one in Mexico.” They say you point. You can’t tell that from the audiotape. They claim you’re pointing toward the lower valley. Did that occur?
A. I was not - -
Q. You weren’t pointing at all?
I didn’t talk about that. I talked about the other case that I talked to the investigator about.
Q. You mentioned - - You said, “The old lady in Mexico”?
A. Yeah.
Q. According to the video - - the audiotape. Right?
A. Yeah, but they are talking about one in Mexico and I’m talking about another.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. Which Mexico are you talking about?
A. New Mexico.
Q. You’re talking about an old lady in New Mexico?
A. One that they out - - they was out there looking for a body is the one I was talking about.
Q. And in regards to the pointing incident, you did not point toward the lower valley?
A. I did not.
Q. Officer Flynn - - Detective Flynn, Detective Lucas and Ranger Clayton Smith are all mistaken on that point?
A. They are if they testified I pointed towards Mexico, because I did not.
Q. You did say, I think, yesterday, maybe it was the day before, that they took you down - - Greg Lucas and them in the van took you off down - -
A. They took me down here, down to this road down here. I don’t know what it is. And they took me all the way back down into that area. I don’t know what it is, houses or something.
Q. I think you’re saying, though, that they took you around the lower valley, kind of around Librada Apodaca’s home?
A. Yes, they did.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. Can you remember what - - how close did you actually get to the Librada Apodaca house?
A. I don’t know exactly.
Q. But you did get down - - you went down to Zaragoza Road, that same road you went down later? A. We come into the same little old town there, whatever that little old town is that is out there.
Q. Ysleta, the one that has the mission standing up there? It’s one of the oldest missions in the United States and it looks like a little bitty town right in the middle, you know, there is a city that’s grown up around it. That’s what you - -
A. Went there and turned around and came back.
Q. So you were down in that area? A. Yes.
Q. According to you, on the February 13th trip?
A. Yes.
Q. Have you ever tried to remember if they actually took you back in any of the little residential areas in there. Did they do that? A. I have tried to remember, but I don’t remember, offhand.
Q. You can’t remember if you actually drove by the house? A. No.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. They might have taken you by the house? A. They might have. I don’t have any idea.
Q. Did they point out a house to you?
A. No, they was just trying to see if I had any kind of crimes in that area. I didn’t have any.
Q. At that time did they ask you about Librada Apodaca? Did they ask you about an old lady?
A. Not a name. They just - - There was somebody that mentioned the axe murder, but I don’t remember whether it was Greg Lucas, whether it was the other guy behind me. I don’t remember. We talked about the axe murder. He asked me did I do any, and I said no.
Q. So they - - One of the people in the van asked you, you know, “How about the axe murder?”
A. Yes.
Q. They were trying to see maybe if you could get close to the Librada Apodaca scene.
A. Yes.
Q. Do you remember anything else that they told you about the axe murder?
A. That’s all that was mentioned at that time. They just asked if I had ever done an axe murder and I said no.
Q. They never went into detail of going to the
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
house and saying, “How about this house right here?”
No.
Q. Now, you know that Detective Lucas, Detective Flynn and, I believe, also, Clayton Smith, say that they never went anywhere near that area.
A. Well, that’s what they say.
Q. And they are also not telling the truth or they have forgotten?
A. I just - - I know where I was at when I was in the van. And I don’t call them no liars, but I know we went in that area.
Q. And you don’t remember if it was Greg Lucas or Curtis Flynn. It was one of those two?
A. Yes.
Q. That told you - - That asked you?
A. It was only those two in the van plus Clayton Smith, and I don’t remember - - and Sheriff Boutwell was there.
Q. Are you sure it wasn’t Ray Hardison?
A. No, it was Sheriff Boutwell.
Q. Are you absolutely positive?
A. Yeah, I’m positive.
Q. Of course, Sheriff Boutwell would have no idea about the location of the axe murder in El Paso?
A. I guess so.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. Neither would Clayton Smith?
A. Unless they discussed it with him. I have no idea.
Q. Then how long did you spend down there in the Ysleta area on that trip?
A. Long enough to drive down there and back. We didn’t really drive around down there. We just drove to that area and back.
Q. Have you got any idea on how much time it was?
A. No, I wouldn’t even attempt to guess, because I just don’t know how long it took us to drive down there and back.
Q. Why at that time, since I think you said you had already in Montaque County seen - - or had you seen some aerial photographs or something about it, you had seen the railroad tracks, the river?
A. I couldn’t swear to it that it was in - - well, it was February, yeah. I had already seen - -
Q. So you had already seen that. Why didn’t you just go ahead and try and guess that? I mean, you - -
A. I just - -
Q. You knew a lot of detail at that time. Right?
A. I didn’t - - Let’s just say I didn’t know
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
enough to try to get a case like that. I just didn’t know.
Q. What details did you know about the axe murder on February 13th, 1984?
A. Well, I knew it was an axe murder. I knew it happened in El Paso. I knew it was a burglarized house and the type of house, what type. That’s it.
Like I say, I didn’t go into a lot of details about that. You know, just - - nobody was willing to volunteer the information, so I didn’t try to go into it.
Q. At that time did you know that it was a sexual assault case?
A. No, I didn’t. I don’t think I knew it at that time. I might have, but I don’t remember.
Q. All you knew was that - - as of February 13th, 1984, was that it was an axe murder?
A. Yes.
Q. And you had seen a picture of the house and you had seen an aerial photograph that showed the - -
A. Showed tanks.
Q. - - the railroad tracks and the canal?
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Yes.
Q. Anything else at all?
A. Not that I can remember, no.
Q. Of course, when you drove down there, you drove across the railroad tracks and the canal?
A. I didn’t know where I was at then until I went back out there a second time. I didn’t know where I was at. I knew I was out in that area.
Q. It didn’t snap on you that you were in the area of that case and then - - because they were asking you about an axe murder?
A. Yeah, but I didn’t - - it didn’t dawn on me then.
Q. And it didn’t dawn on you to tell them, “Well, yeah, I did an axe murder out there. I burglarized the house and the house looked like this.” You could have at least given them that. Right?
A. Yeah, I could have then, but, you know, I couldn’t take them to it, you know, because I didn’t know where it was at. He asked me where I-10 is and I can tell you where I-10 is, but anything else about it, I can’t tell them.
Q. You went back up Interstate 10 and then you went out west, right, to the - -
A. Yeah. At that time, yeah.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. You looked out in the area around what we call Trans Mountain Road up by the mountain in the desert area?
A. Yep.
Q. Looking for - -
A. We drove way out.
Q. - - looking, working the Elizabeth Allen case, the redhead. Right?
A. Right.
Q. Where did you go from there?
A. Across the mountains. You know, across the mountain over there.
Q. And after that?
A. After that, we drove all the way out I-10 to some little town on I-10 there. I don’t know the name of it. It’s on the other side of the racetrack. I don’t know what that is.
Q. Did anybody on that trip - - Other than that one reference when you were down in the lower valley about the axe murder, did anybody else discuss the axe murder case with you?
A. Not in the car, no.
Q. Not in the car or - -
A. At that time, no.
Q. In the jail, anywhere?
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
No, not at that time.
Q. There was no other discussion of the Librada Apodaca case other than this one comment by either Detective Flynn or Detective Lucas about the axe murder?
A. Yes.
Q. That’s when you were in the van down around the Ysleta mission?
A. Right.
Q. Now, you remember December of, I guess it would be 1983 when Detective Greg Lucas came to El Paso - - Pardon me - - came to Georgetown where you were at and you-all did that videotape interview? A. I couldn’t tell you exactly the month he came, because I don’t know.
Q. Okay. Let me get the - - Now, that interview in December of ’83 with Greg Lucas was in Georgetown, was that before or after the meeting with this person that you talk about that said they were from El Paso but you - -
A. That was after that.
Q. That was after that?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. Then you remember us going over that part of the videotape here in the courtroom where they asked
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
the videotape here in the courtroom where they asked you about a lot of cases, and then they asked you, I think Martin Beltran asked you, “Aside from her, did you stop anyone else?”
Your answer was, “Not at that time. I broke in some homes.”
And then, “There in El Paso?”
“Well, in El Paso, I guess you would say.”
“Can you describe the area where this happened and when?”
“That was in - - Let’s see - - would have been ’81. Me and two kids that were with me.”
And, “Describe what you did when you burglarized those houses.”
“Well, we broke the back door open on one place and we burglarized it. We went over to another house in that area, we went through a window.”
Where - - When you said that, was that just something you were making up or was it something that had been given to you or where did that come from?
That, I don’t know.
Q. I mean, you don’t know where that came from?
A. We had talked about so much I couldn’t tell you where that came from. I don’t know.
Q. And then it says, “Were there any people in
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
The house when you went in?”
“Well, there was a woman there asleep when we went in.”
And again, is that - - is this information that you were - - where you were just making it up as you were going or had you been given some information of an El Paso case like that?
It’s possible I was given the information.
Q. Not by - -
A. I couldn’t swear to it.
Q. Not by Greg Lucas or Martin Beltran or - -
A. No.
Q. - - these people, because in these videotapes it doesn’t mention that.
A. No.
Q. If you got it from somebody, you got it maybe from this - -
A. Before, that guy before.
Q. The guy you talked to before?
A. I think he worked for the sheriff’s department, but I wouldn’t swear to it. I just don’t know.
Q. Talked about going in the nighttime, talked about going in and raping her. Do you remember that?
A. Yeah. I remember what was said there, but I
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
just don’t remember when I said it.
Q. You can’t remember if this is something that you were either making up or that had been given to you by someone?
A. No.
Q. You described her as an older lady, 50, 55 years old, sort of gray-headed, sort of heavy-set. Do you know where you got that description from?
A. No, I have no idea.
Q. You talked also in that about being in El Paso right before you were arrested in the Pontiac. Do you remember that?
A. It’s possible I did. I couldn’t swear to it because I don’t remember.
Q. That was on the videotape. And in fact, you said that you were - - it was either May or June of ’83, and you were there at the truck stop and you abducted a girl from there, that she was blonde-headed and about five feet none, classic dressed, well dresses woman wearing a light blue dress. And this is the woman you took out west of El Paso and killed?
A. That’s the one that the investigator gave me. That’s where that case came from.
Q. But the - - Actually, the investigator, that private investigator had shown you a picture of a
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
red-headed lady?
Yeah, but I forgot she was red-headed.
Q. You called this one blonde-headed?
A. Yeah.
Q. Actually, the description you give here is much like the description that you give Detective Perez of the waitress at the truck stop that you sold the property to?
A. O don’t know that, either. I don’t remember what I told him.
Q. It isn’t a cast that the waitress, this blonde-haired lady was a person that you - - that you did you see here in May or June of ’83; you fantasized about taking her out and killing her?
A. I did see her in ’83. I told you that. I told you that back in 1981 when I saw those waitresses in the place up there. Those are the only two that I remember.
Q. Do you fantasize a lot about killing people?
A. No, I do not.
Q. Now, you were - - do you remember the Reverend Bob Larson?
A. I remember him and Sister Clemmie come in together, but I don’t remember that much about him. I just know that he came in, some kind of minister.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
That’s all.
Q. And he visited you both in Georgetown and then later he even visited you in Waco?
A. Yeah, against a court order.
Q. But you talked to him freely there in Waco, didn’t you?
A. Not really.
Q. When you were in Waco, you weren’t under the control of the rangers anymore?
A. No, but I was under a court order that I wasn’t to talk to nobody without the supervision of my attorney.
Q. At one time - - Of course, at that time in Waco you were telling General Mattox and - -if he was there or the attorney general’s people, Vic Feazell and the DA’s people there, you were testifying before the grand jury there in Waco about not having done any of these murders, particularly those three in McLennan County, and yet Bob Larson has tapes of you at that same time telling him that you did do all those murders?
A. Yes. He also has a tape saying they are all lies, too. He also has a letter to that effect.
Q. And why would you be telling Bob Larson - -
A. Because the sheriff put him up to come up
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
there.
Q. The sheriff put Bob Larson to going up?
A. That’s right.
Q. You heard Bob Larson testify in the courtroom here - -
A. I did, but I didn’t have a chance to have my lawyers question him.
Q. Gary Richardson questioned him, didn’t he?
A. Not really questioned him. He just sat over there and more or less went through the motions of questioning him, as far as I was concerned.
Q. Are you not happy with Gary Richardson?
A. No, I am not.
Q. Why not?
MR. PONTON: Object to going into this line of questioning. He is getting onto the attorney-client relationship with Mr. Richardson.
THE COURT: I’ll sustain the objection.
Q. (BY MR. MOODY) And - - Okay. We are trying to get down to - - You’re saying the reason that you told Bob Larson the things that you told him was because he was being sent there by Sheriff Boutwell?
A. That’s right.
Q. How did you know he was being sent there by Sheriff Boutwell?
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
There will be brought out at a later date in the hearing, but I don’t want to go into it.
Q. Okay. I mean, he didn’t tell you that, did he?
A. No, he didn’t have to.
Q. I still - - Why would you have to lie to Bob Larson? Why would you tell Bob Larson the story just because he was working for Sheriff Boutwell?
In fact, logic would tell you that you would tell - - if you knew he was coming in for the sheriff to try to get you to say things that weren’t true, you would tell him the other side of the story. You would tell him you hadn’t killed anybody.
Not really.
Q. Well, why not?
A. Because back then I was under a threat and I was not going to give him any information.
Q. You were under a threat from whom?
A. Sheriff Boutwell.
Q. What was Sheriff Boutwell threatening you about then?
A. About confessions.
Q. He was actually in the jail there?
A. That’s right. My attorney found him in the jail and run him out of the jail.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. What was he trying to get you to do?
A. Trying to get me to go back to confessing these false crimes.
Q. And you told your attorney? Your attorney saw him there?
A. Yes.
Q. You didn’t try to maybe tape record Sheriff Boutwell doing this stuff?
A. Sheriff Boutwell illegally taped us talking.
Q. He has got some of those tapes?
A. That’s right.
Q. Have those been used as evidence, to your knowledge?
A. Not yet, they haven’t.
Q. Now, your lawyers in Waco, your lawyer in Waco was Gary Richardson. Is that correct?
A. It was not.
Q. It was not?
A. No.
Q. Who was your lawyer when you were in Waco?
A. Guy Cox.
Q. Guy Cox. Any other lawyers?
A. No.
Q. Was Gary Richardson at all involved in your case when you were in Waco?
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
He took over the case after it was almost over up there.
Q. All right. At that time you were cooperating with the attorney general’s office?
A. I was.
Q. And with the district attorney, Vic Feazell?
A. I was.
Q. Who are - - I guess they are agents of the state of Texas?
A. Vic Feazell was interested in his cases and his cases only.
Q. Okay.
A. And the attorney general was interested in all of them?
Q. Okay. And you wanted to cooperate with them and help them in any way you could to clear up these cases. Is that right?
A. Let’s say what I had to tell them is confidential, because I went to the grand jury with them and I’m not going to repeat what I went to the grand jury with.
Q. No, no, I’m not trying to get into what you told them. Okay? I just want to know - - What you were doing is you were trying to cooperate with them so that the truth would come out?
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
I did cooperate with them.
Q. And you had, you know, you tried - - And I don’t want to go into what you turned over to them and what stuff you gave them. But you allowed them through your attorneys to get whatever evidence was necessary that you had possession of or had access to so that they could have that to help in your defense?
A. I did.
Q. And you instructed your attorneys, I think, what, you still had those - - What are those folks down there who had done orange socks for you, Higginbotham and Parker McCullough?
A. Higginbotham and Parker McCullough.
Q. And they still had things of yours and you asked them to give them to your lawyer?
A. I asked them to give them to everybody, but I don’t know who-all they gave them to. I have no idea.
Q. But whoever you asked everybody to give them to, the intent was to get that material to the attorney general and Vic Feazell so they could help start to clear you on this case - - on those three cases and then also the whole series of cases. Right?
A. Correct.
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Q. And that was all being done with your knowledge and with your permission?
A. It was being done then and before then.
Q. Now, I think Hugh Aynesworth is supposed to come in and testify as soon as you finish. When did you meet Hugh Aynesworth?
A. 1983.
Q. And what was the purpose of talking to Hugh Aynesworth?
A. My attorney brought him to me because I requested to talk to somebody that was an investigator who would take a case under the agreement of book rights and things like that.
Q. Which attorney was it that hooked you up with Hugh Aynesworth?
A. He was in Denton County. That’s all I can tell you.
Q. Your Denton County defense attorney?
A. Yes.
Q. That was just primarily for getting together for the book rights and - -
A. No, because I wanted him to go into some investigation for me, and I have something to pay him for his expenses.
Q. And you wanted him to investigate certain
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things?
I wanted him to investigate anything I pled guilty to or anything that I made a statement on.
Q. Why did you want him to do that?
A. Because I knew they were all false statements, you know, that I was making.
Q. I’m not interested in going into what information that Hugh Aynesworth is doing for you.
A. I have no idea on that, either.
Q. I’m not really concerned about that. But he has - - You know, he has worked with you extensively on your cases?
A. He has tried to whenever the officers would let him.
Q. And, of course, he has written many articles in the newspapers about inconsistencies between - -
A. I have heard that, yes.
Q. - - your murders and your whereabouts?
A. I have heard that, yes, sir.
Q. Basically he was trying to explore any alibi type defense that you had? A. As far as I know, yes.
Q. Now, again, I’m not interested in going into the details of all these false confessions that you have given. Like I said, that would take a
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tremendous amount of time.
But there are maybe 25 or 30 of them that I only want to ask you one question about, and that is the question, well, obviously, this is a false confession since all the confession were false, you know, who is it, as best you can remember, that supplied the false information in about 25 or 30 cases. I don’t want to go into what the details of the cases were all about. You can do that?
I can answer that offhand on all of them.
Q. Okay.
A. That’s an easy question.
Q. All right.
MR. PONTON: Well, at this time, Your Honor, I would object going into those extraneous offenses, because Mr. Lucas is up here for the limited purpose of talking about his voluntariness of his confession.
THE COURT: I’ll overrule your objection.
MR. MOODY: I don’t think this will take too long.
THE COURT: Well, we are going to take a brief recess while you get those out, Mr. Moody.
MR. MOODY: Okay.
(A brief recess was taken.)
THE COURT: Okay, Mr. Moody.
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MR. MOODY: Thank you, Your Honor.
Q. (BY MR. MOODY) Mr. Lucas, we are going, I think, rather quickly go through some, not all, of your prior confessions which you have stated are false and I’m not going into the details of the cases with you or for you to say whether you did them or whether you didn’t do them but just to determine which were the officers in those cases that gave you the information that was able to, I suppose, clear that case.
And some of them you may be able to tell me their names on some of the files and some of them you may not. Just do the best you can with it. Okay?
As far as names, I know that I can’t give you names.
Q. What I’ll do is I’ll give the names of the people in the case.
A. I still wouldn’t know them.
Q. Some of them you might and some of them you might not. If you can’t, then you’ll just have to describe the person to the best you can remember. Just give me the physical description and go on to the next one. I’ll try to make these all very fast.
Let’s start with - - I guess we will start
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With the oldest of the cases that you cleared. That was a 1970 case. I think you will be familiar with that one.
That is out of Kaufman County, Texas, Linda Phillips, the schoolteacher. That was August 9th, 1970, was the alleged date of that offense. That was a case in which you did plead guilty to murder and were sentenced to life imprisonment on May 24th of 1984.
Now, on that case the people that you dealt with were a former sheriff, I think Roy Brockway, Texas Ranger Stewart Dowell and then some of the other people there in that area. Do you remember who it was in the Kaufman County case with Linda Phillips that supplied the information to you that enabled you to give them enough detail and that allowed you to get back to the scene of the crime?
That was done by the Texas Ranger in Smith County and the ex-sheriff there in that county.
Q. The two that I mentioned Stewart Dowell?
A. Yes.
Q. And Roy Brockway?
A. Yes.
Q. And just very briefly, how did they give you the information? Did they show you photographs? Did
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they - -
They showed the entire case.
Q. Just gave the entire case to you, let you read it. You know, basically, “I have got a little folder on that case,” just let you read the whole thing and then - -
A. They had a lot more than that.
Q. I just have a little bit of what they had. And then apparently you signed a confession - -
A. Yes.
Q. - - in that case?
A. Right.
Q. You got back out to the scene. How did you do that?
A. They took me back to the scene.
Q. They just took you to the scene and they are the ones that are just saying that you - - you led them to the scene, but they are the ones that actually led you?
A. Yes.
Q. Let’s go to one on Carol Ann Lane. That’s a case out of North Carolina.
The alleged date of that offence, I believe, was October the 12th, 1976. And this was a case in which you were spoken to by, I believe it was, the
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North Carolina Bureau of Investigations, particularly an Agent W. W. Campbell who spoke to you about this case.
This is a case that Coral Ann Lane, a white female, approximately 22 years of age, she was a hitchhiker. The body was found October 12th, ’76, on the shoulder of the highway in a wooded area, found fully clothed wearing a black sweater. She had been stabbed numerous times in the chest, neck and back. She had also been struck with a blunt object. She may have been choked. There were no signs of a struggle at the scene. There was evidence of a rape. The victim had been allowed to redress before death in that case.
Another person involved, O.L. Wise from the North Carolina State Bureau of Investigation is the person that said cleared the case. Do you remember this one?
Vaguely. That’s about the only thing I can say. That’s a mail-in case and it would be cleared by Clayton Smith before it ever came to me.
Q. So Clayton Smith is the one who would have given you the details of that case?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. It says here that on June 4th, ’84, you gave
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Correct directions to the location where the victim’s body had been dumped. You described the nature of the wounds and described the missing pocketbook which had been taken and correctly identified the type of knife used.
That’s because of the mail-in, what the mail-in said to Clayton Smith.
Q. That was all because of Clayton Smith. It wasn’t because any of the officers themselves from North Carolina?
A. No.
Q. Clayton Smith basically just let you look at the whole file?
A. I saw the whole file.
Q. The photographs and everything?
A. Yes.
Q. Marian Calquist, this is out of Liberty, Georgia. I think you even made a trip to Georgia, did you not?
A. I went with Clayton Smith and one of the other rangers, but I don’t remember who he was.
Q. Just to give you a brief thing on this, if you can remember it.
The agent involved there and some of the people involved, an Agent J. J. McLammory and Liberty
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County Sheriff - - it’s Detective John Dasher, also a man by the name of Ralph Stone from the Georgia Bureau of Investigation.
This is a case that occurred December 17th, 1976. The victim had been seen working on December 17th. On the 18th some hunters found her body three miles east of a place called Hinesville, Georgia, lying on her side on the side of the road, Stacy Store Road. Her vehicle was discovered 100 feet away.
Witnesses said she had been abducted by a male as she got into her vehicle at a supermarket. The victim had been stabbed seven times in the chest.
It says here that, “Lucas directed the officers to the location of the store where he abducted her from and also to the location of where the body was found. Lucas stated the correct method of death,” that was, stabbed several times. “Lucas stated that Ottis Toole was with them.
Offense confirmed and cleared by the Georgia Bureau of Investigation.”
Do you recall that case?
I can recall it, but I won’t talk about that because there is an indictment on that case now.
Q. You don’t even want to say who gave you that
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information on that one?
No.
Q. Holly Marie Andrews, a case out of Colorado. This is a case worked out of Arapahoe County, Colorado. The victim, Holly Andrews, was a hitchhiker, a white female. The body was found nude except socks. She was raped. She was stabbed.
Apparently you talked to Howard Gillespie, the agent in charge, Colorado bureau, on this case and let’s see who else. It says here, “Lucas admitted this offense to Joe Antonio from the Pueblo County Sheriff’s office. He also directed officers to the location where the victim’s purse had been discarded approximately five miles from the scene of the offense.”
Do you recall who gave you the information on that case?
They did. And I have never directed them nowhere. I have never been in Colorado.
Q. What they were saying was you had directed them with information that - -
A. I did not.
Q. - - where the purse was. In other words, they were saying you said where the purse was.
A. I did not.
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Q. You did not say in your confession that the purse would be found discarded in a dumpster some - -
A. I did not.
Q. - - some miles from the scene?
A. I did not know.
Q. Who was it that gave you the information in that case?
A. The entire state of Colorado.
Q. Can we narrow it down a little bit? There is a lot of people in Colorado.
A. Everybody that came in talked about the cases.
Q. They all talked about this one. Do you remember this one pretty well?
A. I remember it pretty well, yes.
Q. What, did they show you pictures?
A. They described case to me that - - when he came in. And that’s the only way I can tell you about it. They brought pictures, they mailed pictures in. Clayton Smith was involved in it and I don’t know how many others.
Q. In other words, this one Clayton Smith and numerous Colorado Bureau of Investigation officers were involved in giving you the information that allowed you to claim the case?
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Yes.
Q. Including, I suppose, Joe Antonio from Pueblo County?
A. Yes.
Q. Here is a case, Mary Harrison out of Kingfisher, Oklahoma, not too far from Oklahoma City, a case that occurred on January the 8th, 1977. She was an elderly 73-year-old white female killed in her residence. The front door of the residence had been kicked in. She had been stabbed 42 times in the throat, chest, back and arms. There is no sexual assault in this case. Apparently a small amount of costume jewelry and a small amount of money was taken.
On July 26, 1984, you confessed to Colee Barker, sheriff of Kingfisher, Oklahoma, about this case giving a written confession. “Lucas stated he and Ottis Toole had sex with her before death and stated victim had been beaten. To cooperate with Toole, the phone receiver cord was cut. However, the phone was not taken. Shoeprints found at the scene had rib-type soles on them which Lucas described as roofer type working shoes. Plastic flashlight was left at the scene which Lucas described as being Ottis Toole’s flashlight.”
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Do you remember how you got the details for this case?
That was a mail-in case that Clayton had that Clayton cleared through Ottis Toole which I verified by Ottis Toole’s telephone call.
Q. So this is one, it’s a mail-in and - - that Clayton Smith gave you the initial information on?
A. Yes.
Q. And then you were allowed to talk to Ottis Toole. And were you shown photographs on this case? A. Yes.
Q. And allowed to read he entire case file?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. And then Ottis talked to you about the case? A. Yes.
Q. After you had talked to somebody and Ottis told you something about this one?
A. The sheriff asked Ottis Toole to call me about the case and go over the case with me. And while I was sitting there doing the conversation, why, he wrote a statement out on that effect and I signed it.
Q. Now, that is Sheriff Corlee Barker of Kingfisher, not Sheriff - -
A. He was the sheriff of that county.
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Q. Right.
A. That’s all I know.
Q. So he had you call Ottis and go over it with him.
Did the sheriff show you any pictures or - -
Yes.
Q. Sheriff Barker?
A. Yes.
Q. And did he let you read the case, too, or did he read it to you?
A. I didn’t read over the case. I just more or less talked on the phone and give him the answers that Ottis gave me over the phone.
Q. Okay. On that one is Ottis telling you that he really committed this murder?
A. I have no idea what he actually committed or he didn’t commit. I have no idea, no. I’m just telling you the sheriff had been down talking to him, and when he come back by Georgetown, he asked me to call him to see if he could verify it with him.
Q. Apparently Sheriff Barker had gone to Florida to talk to Ottis?
A. Yes.
Q. You don’t know if the sheriff had just given Ottis the information that he was given back to you - -
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I have no idea.
Q. - - or whether Ottis really did this or not?
A. I have no idea.
Q. There is one on Elizabeth Taylor, not the Elizabeth Taylor, which was in Arkansas, Little Rock. And that case occurred on July 4th, 1978.
“Victim found dead in her apartment house suffering severe beating to the head, one stab wound to the vagina. Lucas admitted this offense stating that he had gone to the apartment, knocked on the door and told the victim his car had overheated and he needed water. She allowed the suspect to enter the apartment in daylight hours. Lucas beat her about the head and stabbed her after raping her. Lucas was allegedly alone on this case.
“The case confirmed, Brad Bennett, Pulaski County Sheriff’s Department of Little Rock, Arkansas.”
Do you remember this case?
I remember vaguely. It was cleared by them through pictures, videotapes, several other ways that one was did. So I couldn’t tell you exactly who did show me all the videos and stuff like that.
Q. Okay.
A. It was cleared by them.
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Q. That was cleared by the officer and local authorities?
A. Yes.
Q. Clayton Smith and them didn’t have any part in this one?
A. No, they came down.
Q. And the officers that came down showed you what, now?
A. Videotapes.
Q. Videotapes of the crime scene?
A. Yes. They showed me the crime scene photographs that was taken of the body and things like that and description of where the house - - the apartment house was at, the road going to the apartment house, the interstate that ran by the apartment house. That was all gave to me be the people up there.
Q. The local officers?
A. Yes.
Q. How many different officers gave you that information, just one or several?
A. There was several of them came down there.
Q. Just from the Little Rock Police Department?
A. Yes.
Q. Or the Pulaski County Sheriff’s Department?
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Both the sheriff and the city and the state.
Q. But they allowed you to watch videotapes of the crime scene prior to you giving a confession? A. I’ve watched many videos of crime scenes.
Q. They allowed you to look at those before you gave your statement?
A. Yes.
Q. They let you look at all these pictures before you gave your statements?
A. Yes.
Q. The next one is on a Gladys Gilmore, Montgomery County, Louisiana. This is the prison warden’s wife. Do you remember that one?
A. I remember going through some down there with them, but I don’t know what they were.
Q. Okay. This is one where her skeletal remains were found in the wooded area. She was tied with some seat belts.
On October 9th you were interviewed by Alabama officers including, I believe, Lieutenant Ted Payne, Sergeant C. K. Hoffer and Alabama Bureau of Investigation Officials regarding this case.
It says, “Lucas gave accurate physical description of the victim, was correct on the make of the victim’s vehicle and the description of the
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Victim’s blouse, damage that was done to the blouse. Lucas thought she possibly had a wig on, which she did. Lucas said he cut and used seat belts from the vehicle to tie her to a tree, which was correct, and as to the tree being a pine tree. Lucas also said the vehicle was stuck, which it was. Lucas drew a fairly accurate diagram of the crime scene and was correct on the description of a blue hair brush which belonged to the victim.”
How - -
I remember that case. That was give to me by the Georgia Bureau of Investigation.
Q. Was given to you by the Georgia bureau?
A. Yes.
Q. Not the Alabama?
A. No.
MR PONTON: Excuse me, Mr. Moody. What date of that offense?
MR. MOODY: That was July 6th, 1978.
Q. (BY MR. MOODY) Given to you by the Georgia bureau?
A. Yes.
Q. How did they give it to you?
A. They came in to interview, which Alabama had asked them to question me on that case when they came
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in.
Q. And to get all those kind of details you would obviously have had to have seen crime scene photos?
A. I did.
Q. Or done it, one of the two?
A. I seen the crime scene photographs, videotapes of it, everything.
Q. You saw videotapes of the crime scene, you saw photos. And this is - - I mean, you saw those prior to giving them any detail?
A. Yes.
Q. Did they let you look at the case reports and did they go over those with you, too?
A. They went over all the case reports, photographs that was taken of the area and pictures of the car inside and out. The make of the car was plainly seen. They had taken a photograph of the nameplate on the car.
Q. The next one here is a Pat Rowl from - - this is from the Arlington, Texas, area, around Dallas.
“Body found floating face down in the Trinity River. Death resulted from severe blows to the top of the head. Hands which were suspected to belong to the victim were found approximately 200
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Feet from where the victim’s body was found. The body had decomposed to a certain degree. Wearing reddish-brown lace-up boots, mid-calf, with back half of the heels resoled, white like material.”
The - - It says “On 11-28-84 Lucas was taken to Arlington where he was interviewed.” You described killing the woman and throwing her into the Trinity River. You described to several officers prior to the other department officers knowing that Arlington offense. “Lucas was shown a live picture of the victim.” Then you, “directed them to the location of the Trinity River where the homicide occurred and where he dumped the body in the river pointing out the exact location. Lucas then pointed out a bar where he had picked the victim up stating he was in the bar drinking beer with Toole. Remained in the car and that he saw” - - Let’s see.
“He also correctly pointed out the area of the bar and the area where the victim had last been seen.”
Do you recall that case?
I recall some of it. I know which case you’re talking about. That was give to me by Dallas police oifficers, Bob Prince. It may not have been Dallas. It could have been Forth Worth. It was one
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of those two agencies that gave me the information.
Q. Do you have any idea who it was on the police departments?
A. It was somebody that Bob Prince knew who worked up in that area, and he had made arrangements for them to interview me on all cases in that particular area.
MR. PONTON: What was the date of that death, Mr. Moody?
MR. MOODY: November 24th, 1978. Well, I’m not sure that’s the exact date because they mentioned that it was - - That may have been the date the body was found, and it was in decomposition so it would be fairly accurate, fairly close.
Q. (BY MR. MOODY) What, did they - - did they show you photographs or - -
A. Yes.
Q. Who did that?
A. The woman. I don’t know her name. She was their investigator. That’s all I know.
Q. The woman from the Dallas PD?
A. It’s either Dallas or Forth Worth. I don’t know which it was. I don’t remember.
Q. Is that the same Dallas police officer, female, that gave you that phony case and caught you
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on it?
No, this is not the same one.
Q. Different woman?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you remember going out to that exact location on the Trinity River and pointing it out to them?
A. I remember them taking me out there, yeah.
Q. No, you didn’t point it out to them. They took you to the - -
A. They took me to the area.
Q. They took you to the area?
A. Yes.
Q. How did you get to the - - Well, according to this report, I mean, you pointed out the exact spot where the body was found.
A. Yeah, by the pictures.
Q. By the pictures?
A. Yes.
Q. You could just tell? Great parts of the Trinity River look an awful lot alike, don’t they?
A. Pretty close. We walked the whole Trinity River so I could find it. There was special items in the picture that told me where it was at.
Q. Can you recall what those were?
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Trees and stuff like that that were blocking the river.
Q. Do you remember, I guess, Detective Captain Dennis Rhoden and Arlington PD people themselves?
A. Yes. We went over the case before we went out there and we talked about it. They showed me pictures of it and stuff like that.
Q. So the Arlington PD also gave you - -
A. Yes.
Q. - - the pictures before going to the scene?
A. Yes.
Q. Here was an interesting case, a child molestation case out of San Diego, California, where the victims were not killed, where they were alive - - they are still alive today.
This is a case apparently where you went into a - - Let’s see here. You went into a private residence in San Diego, California, sexually - - or what happened in this crime was sexually assaulted all three victims. They were a 12-year-old female, 12-year-old female, 10-year-old male.
“Held knife to each victim at different times. Victims were forced to commit oral sodomy on each other and commit oral sodomy on the suspect. The victims described the suspect at that time, white
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male, 25 years of age, five-nine, 185.
“San Diego homicide detectives interviewed Lucas in reference to numerous homicides in California, and during that interview, Lucas stated that he had entered a single-story residence through the front door with a knife and sexually molested two young girls and one young boy.
“Investigating officers at the time were unaware of that offense because they were homicide detectives and this was obviously not a homicide. After interviewing officers returned to San Diego, contact was made with the sex crimes division and it was learned that a child molestation incident had occurred as Lucas described it on December 2nd, 1978. At a later date Lucas was again interviewed on the incident and he described the same details.
“This case was cleared by Artie Jordan and D. R. Ayers detectives, San Diego Police Department.”
Do you remember that case?
Yes, I do.
Q. How was it that you could give it to the homicide detectives that didn’t know anything about it?
A. Well, there was about 15 different agencies come in and talked about different cases.
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Q. 15 different agencies talked to you about that child molestation case?
A. No, they talked about several different cases. But they would always bring the same files back with them.
Q. Which people would do that?
A. The one that included that area. He was the investigator for a certain area.
Q. Yes, sir.
A. See, they’re not like out of this state. They are different. So, now, there are probably five or six thousand miles difference, you know, along each, - - five or six hundred miles long, section is.
Q. Yes.
A. And he was the one that would go around to each one in the California area and get their cases and then come and question me in Georgetown about it.
Q. This was a guy from the California Bureau of Investigations?
A. I don’t know where he was from. He was from California.
Q. But he was the guy that actually came from their state agency?
A. The original, the investigator that came out here from California. Where he is from, I don’t know.
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Q. So in other words - -
A. But there was a different agency I worked with when I went to California.
Q. This was the original investigator who came to Georgetown and Montaque County.
MR. PONTON: What is the date of that offense, Mr. Moody?
MR. MOODY: This date, December 2nd, 1978.
Q. (BY MR. MOODY) To Montaque County.
A. He worked the Hemet, California, area, Beaumont area, San Diego area, Los Angeles area, places like that.
Q. Can you describe him, what he looked like a little bit?
A. He is a - - Diamond or something like that is his name, but I don’t remember the whole name of it. They call him Diamond or something like that.
Q. And, what, he gave you this case and he told you about several - -
A. He told me about all the cases, because I was giving him some false cases and he was going back and checking them out. And it was panning out to be what I told him, so he would go around the whole state of California and gather up cases and bring
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them in.
Q. So he just brought you a whole bunch of California cases?
A. Yes.
Q. He would let you sit down and look at the photographs?
A. We sat down and looked at the photographs and the files and everything.
Q. And then based on that, you later told San Diego that - - homicide detectives that you hadn’t maybe killed anybody in San Diego, but there was a child molestation case. Is that right?
A. I told them about the case and they cleared it. I never did go back to the scene or anything like that.
Q. All right. Linda Sue Atkins, white female, 29 years of age, Bakersfield, California. Date, January 11, 1979.
In this case, it says, “During the evening of January 11, ’79, the victim drove her vehicle to a motel across town from the one she was staying at, which had been a discotheque. The vehicle was found in the parking lot on January 16th. Her body was found in a vacant field west of the motel. Cause of death, several stab wounds to the front chest, neck
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and slashed throat. The body was nearly nude.
“On June 18th, 1984, Lucas was interviewed by Bakersfield Detective Les Vincent. During the interview Lucas correctly described the geographic location, correctly described the manner of death and also correctly described the victim’s vehicle.”
Additionally, you went to California, found that motel, pointed it out, pointed out the restaurant, pointed out the field and actually. According to these reports, pointed out very closely the actual spot where the body was found.
Now, do you recall that case?
Yes, I do.
Q. How did you - -
A. The same was as this other case, the guy from California.
Q. Okay. Was that the same guy?
A. It was 15 different cases in California that were cleared because of that - - because of the pictures and everything being brought to me and things like that. And I never did take them back to a scene of any of them. They took me back.
Q. They always took you to the scene?
A. Yes.
Q. You never directed any of the California
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officers to the scene?
No, I did not. No.
Q. They would take you directly - - Like in this case, they would take you directly to the field and they would say, “Here is where the body was found. Is this the place?” and you would say, “That’s it”?
A. Yes.
Q. Or it’s like in the case with the little girls underneath the bridge, they took you out underneath the bridge and showed you that scene?
A. They took me to the area after showing me the pictures of it.
Q. Okay.
A. Which they already had the route marked - - They had went over the route they were going to take, went over the area where they were going to take, went over the area where they were going to go and checked out motels where they were going to stay the nights and also find out whether I would stay in jail or in a motel at night.
Q. An unidentified female in Dade County, Florida, Miami. Okay. Date, February 4th, 1979.
On that date, “The recent deceased body of victim was discovered. The body sustained stab wounds to the chest, the wounds being four and a half inches deep. The body had been burned. The victim
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Was laying on her back. Lucas stated the victim had been kidnapped at gunpoint from a shopping center while she was talking on the phone. Lucas described to Deputy Smith each item, article of clothing the victim was wearing, the scene where the body was located and the position of the body in its final resting place.
“Cleared by Detective Greg Smith, Deputy Sheriff, Dade County, Florida.”
Those are mail-in cases.
Q. It’s a mail-in case?
A. Yes.
Q. So in other words, from - -
A. From Smith.
Q. Clayton Smith?
A. Yeah. He was doing those at that time, and Sheriff Boutwell was, so it would be one of those two.
Q. So they had - - they must have showed you, what, the photographs?
A. The photographs and - - The area photographs and things like that of the city of Miami and the area around Miami.
Q. And then, what, did Detective Greg Smith from Dade County came to talk to you?
A. Yes.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. And then after he came to talk to you, I mean, did he show you pictures?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. And all that? He showed you pictures, told you - -
A. Well, he didn’t tell me anything on it. I just have them back to him what I had already learned from the case from the file.
Q. But he did actually show you the crime scene photos?
A. Yes.
Q. Yolanda Garcia. It’s a case out of Zavala County, Texas, originated in Uvalde, Texas.
“Date of the offense, 4-18-79. Victim was abducted by two men from a parking lot in Uvalde. Her vehicle was found later and her body was found later in a brush area along a creek near Batesville, Texas.
“Lucas stated that he and Toole forced the victim at gunpoint into a pickup truck. Toole and Garcia drove down Highway 117 towards Batesville. Lucas and Becky and Frank followed in a bluish-green Ford station wagon. They pulled off into a field west of a dirt road on highway 117. Lucas stated he was not present at the time Toole killed the victim
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
as he had gone back to the station wagon after they had both raped the victim.
“The victim’s body was found. She had been stabbed four times in the chest, once in the vagina. The body was lying on her stomach. She was wearing a peach-colored dress. Panty hose had been removed from the right leg, still on the left ankle.
“Near the body were victim’s purse, panty girdle and shoes. Victim’s pickup was situated nearby.
“The offense was cleared by Rangers Clayton Smith and Joaquin Jackson.
They actually stated that you were able to get them back to the exact scene of this crime. That would be, I think, Joaquin Jackson, a Texas Ranger.
Do you remember that case?
Yeah. Well, they have the wrong name of who cleared the case. Clayton Smith did not go on that case. That was Bob Prince.
Q. Okay.
A. That was a case that was cleared through a telephone call to Ottis Toole which had told those authorities that he had done it, committed the crime and he asked me to back him up.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. So he had told - - Ottis Toole had told them he did it?
A. Yes.
Q. And he wanted you to back him up?
A. Yes.
Q. Then Ottis Toole gave you information in this case?
A. Well, they did, too.
Q. Ottis gave it to you and then who else gave you the information?
A. The ranger from that area down there.
Q. The one I mentioned, Joaquin Jackson?
A. Yes.
Q. And how do you explain the fact - -
A. The deputy, which you don’t have on there, he is, also.
Q. The deputy also gave you some?
A. Yes.
Q. Were you allowed to see photos in this case?
A. Yes.
Q. Who showed you those?
A. The ranger, Joaquin Jackson, and the deputy that came with him to Georgetown.
Q. That’s when there was a sheriff’s deputy that worked the case jointly with him on this one?
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Yes.
Q. Did they both give you the details of the case?
A. Well, he discussed the whole case there in front of me. He wanted to know if I was responsible or whether I was with Ottis or whether Ottis was lying to me - - to them. And I said, well, I don’t know. I would have to talk to Ottis on it to find out whether he - - what he had said about it.
And so a phone call was placed through from Georgetown to Florida to the jail down there. And I talked to Ottis on the phone, which all phone calls were tape recorded and - - on both ends, the way I understood it. And that’s how that case was got cleared.
Q. How did you actually get the crime scene on that?
A. They took me there. They had been to it.
Q. Joaquin Jackson or someone else?
A. Whoever was driving the car. I don’t know whether it was Joaquin or the other one.
Q. You weren’t directing them? As you were driving down the road you didn’t say, “Hey, wait a minute. It’s over there”?
A. No, I did not.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. They in turn, then, didn’t drive to where you told them. They took you?
A. No, they took me to the area of the crime scene, and then from the crime scene area, which was about 100 feet from where they took me to, and I just described it to them from the pictures.
Q. Charlotte Wallace out of Houston, Texas. Houston, Texas, did a very interesting thing, didn’t they? They brought you how many cases?
A. I have no comment on that one.
Q. You’re not under indictment in Charlotte Wallace, are you?
A. I don’t know which one it is yet, but - -
Q. Okay.
A. I’ll have to wait until you get into the case so I can visualize what you’re talking about.
Q. This is the one - - This is another elderly lady, white female, 68, in her home.
“Victim apparently came into her own house in mid-morning hours and surprised the suspects who were burglarizing her home. She was struck over the head with an unknown object and strangled to death manually. There was a dishtowel wrapped around her head as a gag and was tied in the back with two knots. She had a laceration on one of her fingers and a torn
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
appearance.
She was fully clothed. Her blouse was pulled up. Appeared to be caused by being drug a short distance across the floor. Entry was gained by breaking out a rear window. A black flashlight was found at the scene.
“Numerous articles of jewelry were taken. The entire house was ransacked with the exception of one upstairs bedroom. Both Lucas and Toole confessed to this case.”
You also - - Of all the cases in Houston, and they drove you around a lot in Houston to try to get to crime scenes, this is the only one you could find in Houston?
No, that’s the only one they wanted me to clear.
MR. PONTON: What was the date of that crime?
MR. MOODY: The date of that crime is May 16th, 1979.
That’s out of 248 cases.
Q. (BY MR. MOODY) They - - They originally bring you 248 cases and said, you know, just wanted to go over some of them and have you done any of them, and you narrowed it down to how many?
A. 60-something, but I don’t remember exactly.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. Just approximately. Obviously, you didn’t take all 248 cases?
A. No.
Q. Then they drove you around trying to find the location of maybe these 60 or however many cases it was. You were unable to fine the location of any of the cases with the exception of this case.
What information was given to you in this case that made it possible for you to find this scene?
Well, they drove right up to the house and walked around the house to the back window. That’s how I found it.
Q. They just drove up to the very house, stopped right there and said - - they didn’t say, “This is it,” but - -
A. They just got out and walked around the house through to the back window.
Q. Okay.
A. The pictures that I already saw, saw that it was the same house.
Q. They had shown you the outside of the house?
A. Yes.
Q. Had they shown you - -
A. They even had pictures in the car we was traveling in.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. Did they show you photos from the inside of the house?
A. Yes.
Q. All the detail of this case, was it supplied to you by the, I guess, Sergeant Ken Williamson who was involved here and Sergeant Boyd Smith of the Houston PD?
A. Yes.
Q. This - - The rangers didn’t - -
A. There was a lieutenant there, but I don’t know where she come from or even where she is at now. She was a lieutenant at the time.
Q. But this is a case that it was a Houston PD officers that gave you the facts?
A. Right.
Q. And that was in advance of you signing any confession which we have here or videotaping the confession?
A. If I ain’t mistaken, they videotaped all of the confessions, but I don’t know for sure.
Q. This is one, in fact, they even - - they even videotaped the van ride to the scene?
A. Yes, correct.
Q. And that videotape should show them pulling up there in front and them, you know, getting out of
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
the car?
If it was on that same trip. We went on several different trips, now, and I can’t say that is the same one. I can’t do that because we didn’t travel in the van at all times. We was traveling in cars and the van.
Q. But you only went to this house one time?
A. The best I can remember, yes.
Q. Just one time to the house. And one time you went to the house it was because they just flat drove you right to the house?
A. Yeah, that’s right.
Q. Stopped the car, not on your command but on - -
A. Well, they stopped all six or seven cars. There was a bunch of us together.
Q. There is one in Jefferson County, Colorado, Linda Hutchins, white female, 17 years of age. Date of the offense, August 15th, 1979.
“Victim had been at a party in Lakewood, Colorado, on August 14th, ’79. Had left, hitchhiked on her way home. Reported missing. Body found September 1st, ’79. Body was found off the roadway in Jefferson County, Colorado, seminude, having died of skull fractures. Just the socks were left on.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Her blouse was pulled up.
“Lucas was interviewed regarding the case. He stated he was drawing her picture the night before. Lucas described the route taken and described the bridge. Lucas stated he killed the victim with a tire tool. The picture which Lucas drew closely resembles the victim’s picture.
“Cleared by Sergeant Steve Forsythe, Jefferson County Sheriff’s Department, Golden, Colorado.”
Do you remember that one?
Yeah. That was the one I was interviewed the day before by Clayton Smith on and I was trying to draw the picture the best I remembered from the pictures that I saw inside the folder. And so the officer showed up the next day and that’s how come that one.
Q. In other words, there was a mail-in case on that case?
A. Yes.
Q. They mailed it in?
A. Yes.
Q. And then the very next day - -
A. Well, it had been there awhile.
Q. Oh, okay.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
The cases had.
Q. Okay.
A. We had a day off that we wasn’t doing anything so they went through the file.
Q. And Clayton Smith had shown you what kind of crime scene photos?
A. The whole crime scene. Everything there was connected with that crime, I had already saw it.
Q. You had already seen the photo of the victim?
A. Yes. That’s what I was drawing it from.
Q. And that’s how you described that information to the Jefferson County, Colorado, people?
A. Yes.
Q. Did they show you the crime scene photos, too?
A. Yes.
Q. They went over the - -
A. They went over it to see if I was right.
Q. Allene Courczinski, Englewood, Colorado.
MR. PONTON: What was that date, Mr. Moody?
MR. MOODY: I will give it in just a second. I was looking for the fact sheet.
January 16th, 1980.
Q. (BY MR. MOODY) On this case, “Thursday, January 17th, 1980, approximately 9:18 a.m., victim
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Was found dead in a field south of Colorado 470 in Daniels Park Road approximately 100 yards west of the roadway. Subsequent investigation revealed victim to have been bound with her hands behind her back, had been raped. Actual cause of death attributed to multiple stab wounds in the upper back.”
Do you remember that case?
I remember mail-in cases, but I don’t remember - - I don’t remember that particular one.
Q. Do you think that was a mail-in?
A. Yes. I don’t remember talking to any officers about it.
Q. So any information that you gained on that case would have been gained by Clayton Smith or - -
A. It would be either Clayton Smith or the sheriff. I don’t know which one did give it to me.
Q. They would have shown you photographs on that case?
A. Yes.
Q. Would have gone over all the details?
A. Yes.
Q. Vicki Aycock, white female, 28, March 12th. 1980.
This is a case where, “The telephone company received a phone call from an hysterical woman
Page 2189
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Between 11:50 a.m. and 12:00 noon in Fitzgerald, Georgia. The operator heard two gunshots. The telephone company traced the call back and called the police. When the police arrived, they found that a brick had been thrown through a sliding glass door in the back. The victim was shot with .357 magnum pistol in the living room. There was a small child in a playpen in the same room that was unharmed.
“Georgia officers - - Lucas directed Georgia officers to the crime scene, provided a sketch of the interior residence. Lucas described the victim and the wagon, method of death, also of disposal of the weapon, which was recovered. Lucas stated that Toole was with him.
“Offense confirmed, Sheriff John Hughes, Ben Hill County Sheriff’s office and Georgia Bureau of Investigation Agent Jack White.”
That you were also able - - According to this, you were able to find the house when you were in Georgia in this particular instance. Do you remember this one?
I remember the case, but I won’t go into that case because that - - I’m having some difficulty with the Georgia Department of Investigations because they know who did the actual killing in that case.
Page 2190
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. They know who did it?
A. Yes.
Q. And they just pinned it on you?
A. Yes.
Q. The Georgia people?
A. Yes.
Q. Is there any particular person in Georgia that is trying to put it on you or is it just a combination?
A. Probably a misunderstanding when we went to Georgia. And when I came back from Georgia, they had already knew who did the actual killing of the woman, and they wanted me to take the case and I refused to do so. And that’s what - - one of the cases why O come back to Waco.
Q. Could you give us the name of the officer involved?
A. I won’t at this time, no.
Q. Can you tell us if it’s just one person or a combination of people that are - -
A. It’s one individual at that location.
Q. It’s not Ralph Stone with the GBI, is it?
A. I have no comment.
Q. Marla Sharp, Provo, Utah. This is a case on June 30th, 1978, 25 years old. “The victim was found
Page 2191
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
In her house June 30th, ’78, lying on her bed clothed only in Mormon Temple garments, which had been worn. The victim had been in bath, had gone to bed when her other roommates had left the house.
“Only physical evidence found at the scene was a beer tap handle with a brand name Budweiser on it. Serological analysis of seminal fluids show they come from a nonsecretor. Saliva specimens from the breast also show a nonsecretor.
“Lucas stated that he entered Provo sometime about 8:00 p.m., that Ottis Toole was with him at the time. He claimed he and Toole went to a church in the area to get financial assistance. Later he indicated that they went to the area of the homicide, entered the house with the intent to steal money. He went upstairs and found the victim laying on the bed. Lucas stated he strangled the victim, gave a physical description of her that matched her description.
“Lucas identified the beer tap handle, advised he had stolen several of these in a burglary possibly in Indiana. He would carry these handles to break out windows. Lucas also recalled that there was a fair in town with a Ferris wheel with rides. This was correct.
“Observation is there was a carnival in town
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
During the pre-4th of July week. Lucas stated he killed the girl and then had sex with her indicating that he had inserted some type of foreign objects inside the vagina.
“Lucas stated that Toole did participate in the death as he was then downstairs looking for something to steal. There were grease stains found at the scene that were inconsistent with the victim’s lifestyle. Lucas indicated that he was consistently working on vehicle during her travels. He indicated that his hands would have been greasy.”
This is a case where there is also some eyewitnesses in Utah to place you and Ottis Toole - -
That is also a case that is not cleared.
Q. Who gave you all that information?
A. That came from Provo, Utah.
Q. That would be - - Let’s see. Is that Lieutenant George Pierpoint?
A. I have no more comment on that.
Q. The people from - -
A. They have been threatening to indict me on that charge, and I want them to do whatever they are going to do and then I’ll take care of my part on it.
Q. It wasn’t Clayton Smith, it wasn’t Sheriff
Page 2193
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Boutwell. It - -
It was a mail-in case by Bob Prince.
Q. Mail-in, Prince. And then you’re saying Prince - -
A. Also phone calls.
Q. And phone calls.
A. I won’t go into any more detail. I said that’s all.
Q. It’s a combination of Prince and these Utah authorities that gave you the information?
A. They gave me the information on this case, yes.
Q. Did they show you photos?
A. I have no more comment about it.
THE COURT: Mr. Moody, let’s stop for lunch at this time.
(A lunch recess was taken.)
Q. (BY MR. MOODY) All right. I just have a few more here. Let’s see.
Here is one out of Fort Bend County, Texas. Dion Marie Wilkinson. The date, March 4th, 1981. Location, Fort Bend County, Texas. Body was located on the Southern Pacific Railroad right-of-way on the Brazos River. The victim had died from multiple stab wounds.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
“Lucas had admitted that he killed the victim after abducting her from the U-Totem store on Highway 6 in Harris County. Led officers to the location where he had discarded the body, also describing to them the abduction and murder.”
That offense was cleared through Harris County Sheriff’s Department Earl Baquel of the sheriff’s department down there. There was a ranger, I think, out of Richmond, Texas, Ranger Milton Wright present on that case.
This is a case that they also noted, they said that this is a spontaneous case, a case in which they were out looking for other cases actually in Harris County, and I guess they crossed over from Harris County into Fort Bend County, which is adjacent to it. And you pointed out or they say you pointed out a location of this murder that they weren’t even familiar with.
Do you recall that?
That came from a dead sheriff.
Q. Dead sheriff?
A. Yeah, he’s dead now.
Q. How did you get the information on this one?
A. He gave it to me.
Q. What sheriff was that?
Page 2195
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
The one up above Dallas is all I know.
Q. Up above Dallas?
A. Yeah. Up there off of 75.
Q. And he is now dead?
A. Yeah.
Q. How did he have any information on a case out of - -
A. It was his case.
Q. It was his case?
A. Yep.
Q. What, he must have been the sheriff down in that county before he moved?
A. I don’t have any idea. He had the case ever since it was - - first thing, and he said it was haunting him and he said he wanted it cleared up.
Q. He must have, what, he told you before you ever went down to Houston?
A. Yeah.
Q. Did he show you pictures?
A. Yes. He had the original file.
Q. And based on those photographs, how long before that incident or pointing out this thing to these Houston people, Harris County people, how long before that had he gone over that case with you?
A. Not too long. I was up in his county and he
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Had went over the case with me. That’s all I know.
Q. And then sometime later you were back in the county and then just from these photographs you recognized this must be that case?
a. No, they had the same case.
Q. Harris County had the same case?
A. Yeah.
Q. And - - Well, how did you know when you got to that location?
A. By photographs.
Q. Did they tell you you were going - -
A. They had the photographs in the car as we were going showing them to me.
Q. They had the photos in the car. That would be - - Would that be this Sheriff’s Deputy Baquel?
A. I guess that’s the one it is. I don’t know their names.
Q. And apparently they crossed over from Harris County into Fort Bend County?
A. Yes.
Q. And showed you this location?
A. Yes.
Q. And then you just verified it for them?
A. Right.
Q. And the details from that case you had
Page 2197
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
remembered from what the dead sheriff had told you?
Yeah. I remember some of them, and then when we was going through there, we was going over all the others.
Q. And then whatever - - the people in the car just gave you the rest of the facts?
A. Yes.
Q. And then after you had all the facts, you went back and signed a written confession in that case just giving - -
A. Went back to the office, yeah.
Q. Just gave them back the facts they had just given you?
A. Yeah.
Q. Then there was a couple of cases out of Washington state, two cases, that being the case on Lisa Martiney and Chris Ann Baxter.
The person that came down and talked to you from Kennewick, Washington, was Detective Dave Haven from their police department. Do you remember him?
I remember a bunch of people from Washington, but I don’t know their names.
Q. Okay. Now, this is a case - - Let’s see if I can recall this one. This is one where the victim was named Lisa Martini, white female, 18 years
Page 2198
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Of age. Killed in her apartment. “Body was found nude, numerous stab wounds with several elongated slashes, two being x-shaped approximately two inches long in the back, one deep cut encircling the neck which almost decapitated the victim. The left breast had been severed. There was evidence of a foreign object inserted into the rectum.
“At the scene at the time of the murder, a towel was found and on that towel there was blood, blood not from the victim but blood from the assailant. That blood has been analyzed and” - - against your blood type, and according to the Washington bureau people, they can eliminate 99.46 percent of the population of the United States, that this blood type is that closely matched to you.
Do you remember this case?
I remember talking about it. It’s a mail-in case. It was brought down by the Green River people from up there in Washington, and it was also brought by Kennewick Police Department.
Q. Okay. So Green River - - the Green River task force?
A. Yes.
Q. Gave you information on it first?
A. They came down to investigate all the
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Murders for the Washington area. This was included in that case.
Q. And this is one of those cases?
A. Yes.
MR. PONTON: Mr. Moody, what was the date of that?
MR. MOODY: This case is dated November 1st, 1978, is the date that the body was found.
MR. PONTON: On Martini?
MR. MOODY: On Martini, yes.
Q. (BY MR. MOODY) So the Green River people had this case with them. They had photographs?
A. They had photographs, they had a small synopsis of it, and plus that, they had picked up the same case there at Williamson County on this one here, too, where they had sent it in.
Q. I don’t understand. Williamson County?
They had - -
Georgetown is where they originally sent the whole case file, to Georgetown.
Q. The Green River task force sent this - -
A. No, Kennewick.
Q. Kennewick PD?
A. Right.
Q. Sent this case to Georgetown?
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
To Georgetown.
Q. And so Clayton Smith - -
A. I had been interviewed by Clayton on it. He had got ready to send it back and hadn’t, and the Washington task force came in and they took the file back with them along with theirs.
Q. So the Green River task force took this case back with them to Washington, I guess, to give back to probably Detective Haven there in Kennewick?
A. Yes.
Q. Detective Haven then came down. Did he show you a bunch of stuff on this case?
A. He showed some of the pictures and things like that, but that’s about it.
Q. He did show you - -
A. I already gave them my statement on it.
Q. Did he also - - Did he give you any of the details in the case before you wrote your confession?
A. He didn’t, no.
Q. When he was down there, he was also - - there was a case that he brought with him that he wasn’t familiar with from an adjoining agency in Spokane, Washington, that being the Chris Ann Baxter case?
A. That’s a teenager that he brought with him.
Q. Yeah, that was the teenager case.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Apparently he didn’t know much about that case. That case, dated, 10-2-78, Spokane, Washington, victim Chris Ann Baxter, white female, 16 years of age.
“Victim found in rural area in Spokane County, Washington, lying on her back, nude from shoulders down wearing only a sweater and both socks. Death was due to manual strangulation, beating with some type of object to the head. The victim had obviously been at the scene two or three days. Type A blood, which is consistent with the blood type” - - I think that’s your blood type?
I don’t have any idea.
Q. - - “was found in the victim’s mouth indicating she had bitten the suspect.”
On this one, Detective Haven, while interviewing suspect Lucas on the Lisa Martini case, had the offense involving the Baxter case described to him by Lucas. In other words, he says he asked you if there were any other cases and you - -
That’s because that case was with the other case.
Q. Did he - - Did Haven give you this case or who gave you this case?
A. No, that was brought down with the task force.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. Okay. Green River had given you this one, too?
A. Yes.
MR. PONTON: What was the date of this offense?
MR. MOODY: 10-2-78.
Q. (BY MR. MOODY) They had shown you the photos?
A. Yes.
Q. And was this a mail-in case, also?
A. It was with the file that came in, so I guess it was a mail-in. But it was with the original file.
Q. And the Green River task force people showed you all the photographs and went over all the details with you?
A. Yea, yeah.
Q. And did you deny the case to them or accept it as that time?
A. I denied it.
Q. Same thing with Lisa Martini?
A. Right.
Q. You originally denied them to the Green River task force and when Detective Haven comes down you accept them - -
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Yes.
Q. - - and give him back the information you already had?
A. Yes.
Q. The Odessa case, Ector County, one of the earliest cases you were involved on, Beverly Lutrell, March 3rd, 1981.
States here, “Victim was stabbed in the throat, upper chest with a butcher knife, strangled with a telephone cord. Lucas and Toole claimed to have had sex with the victim after death. Body was left nude. Lucas stated he and Toole wore rubber gloves at the residence. Lucas left part of a pack of Pall Mall cigarettes at the residence. Suspects drank Budweiser and Coors beer and ate at the residence.
Offense confirmed by the Odessa Police Department.”
In this case I think there was a - - the cigarettes at the scene, there was some that were smoked left and were tested as to nonsecretor status, which is - - which you understand that’s your status. Right?
Yes. That’s what you-all been saying, so I guess it’s true.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. Okay. And do you remember this case?
A. I do.
Q. Also they said when you went to Odessa you took them to the area of where the trailer had been located?
A. I didn’t take them nowhere. They took me.
Q. Okay. How did you get this case?
A. That came out of a flyer book from the police department along with photographs that was sent to Montaque County and to Odessa police officers.
Q. A flyer book from the PD. What do you mean a flyer book?
A. It’s a book where they keep all the unsolved murder case in or wanted cases and stuff like that.
Q. They just had a deal up there in Montaque County?
A. They had three books up there.
Q. And you read it on that?
A. Yes.
Q. Who was letting you do that reading?
A. That would have been Phil Ryan.
Q. And then you say photos were sent - -
A. Yes.
Q. And then after the photos were sent, a couple of officers from Odessa PD came down?
Page 2205
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Yes.
Q. And, what, did they give you any information on the case?
A. They sat there and went through the whole entire case with them.
Q. Gave you the whole file?
A. They didn’t hand it to me. You know, I was reading it when they was reading it.
Q. They read it and you read it or they let you read it?
A. It was laying right there on the table in front of me. I had to read it.
Q. Then would - - After they would let you read the file and see the photographs, then they let you sign a confession?
A. Not there. They waited until I went to Odessa.
Q. And then did - - about going to the scene on this one, again they took you to the scene?
A. Yes.
Q. Not you took them.
I guess so far your most famous case, the orange socks case - -
I won’t make any comments.
Q. You won’t talk about that one because it’s
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
on appeal?
Right.
Q. There were some cases in Montgomery County, Texas. Montgomery County is a county above or just north of - -
A. Above Houston.
Q. Right. Approximately three murders there. You were indicted on three and pled to two and one was dismissed. Of the two that you worked on, Laura Jean Domez, Montgomery County, and then there is one unidentified female in Montgomery County.
Let’s see. First, on Laura Jean Domez, this was a Mexican-American girl who was picked up in Houston, whose body was taken to, I believe, in Montgomery County. The sheriff there, Joe Corley, was involved in the investigation.
They say that you had given them confessions that are detailed on this case and, in fact, let them to the scene or where the bodies were of both of these people.
I did not.
Q. Where did you get the information to these case?
A. Those cases came to Montaque County, and the police officers from - - investigators from the Conroe
Page 2207
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Police Department or sheriff’s department came to Conroe and went over the cases with me.
Q. It was Conroe PD?
A. Sheriff, I think. Sheriff’s department.
Q. Sheriff’s department. They came to Montaque County?
A. Right. They showed me all the photographs, the synopsis report. They then took me to Conroe where my attorney got in the car with me, and he knows I did not lead them to the crime scenes and - - They said that I did, but I did not.
Also, the one murder they dismissed. They found out that couldn’t have did it because I was in Oklahoma City, and so they dismissed that one and then forced me to plead on the other two.
MR. PONTON: Mr. Moody, what date is that crime you’re referring to?
MR. MOODY: The one I’m talking about here is - - the first one was Laura Jean Domez. I believe this is April 18th, 1983.
Right.
Q. (BY MR. MOODY) And these were both springtime 1983 cases, as I recall?
A. Right.
Q. Let me pull the other one. That is on an
Page 2208
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Unidentified female, Montgomery County. The date on that one was - - Let’s see. Where is that - - March 17th, 1983. Both of these bodies were burned.
That’s right.
Q. And, in fact, in the original 77 cases to Phil Ryan, you mentioned some bodies burned that you had taken out of Houston, the Houston area and deposited up north of Houston. And these two cases you mentioned the fact that - - I think it was something like that the bodies had been burned and these two cases seemed to match those two cases.
A. That’s because I had already seen the two cases.
Q. But when did you see them?
A. Before I took and wrote that part of that in my original confession.
Q. Where had you seen that?
A. There in Montaque County.
Q. Well, before you were giving any of your confessions - -
A. They had sent the thing there to see if I was involved in that, too.
Q. When you were just there on the gun charge?
A. Yes.
Q. I mean, you hadn’t even been charged with
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
the murders of Kate and Becky?
That’s right.
Q. But Montgomery County sent up this information to see if you had done these murders?
A. That’s because Sheriff Conway sent out teletypes to all different kinds of things that I had confessed to in 1982.
Q. Okay. I don’t want to get too far off the track, but you were saying those things you confessed to in 1982, and I never did understand yesterday when you talked about that. What did you confess to in 1982?
A. I had gave a bunch of phony confessions because they kept riding my back and keeping me in jail and stuff.
Q. Did you give them these confessions in writing or - -
A. Yes.
Q. - - or orally or how?
A. Writing and orally, and tape recordings.
Q. What types of crimes were you - - Were they murders or were they - -
A. Everything you could think of.
Q. Just all kinds. They were all fictitious crimes?
Page 2210
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Yeah.
Q. But Sheriff Conway didn’t take any action against you in ’82?
A. No, because it wasn’t anything - - they found out none of it was true. They sent teletypes all over the United States.
Q. Then you said something about you were forced to plead guilty on these two cases?
A. That’s right.
Q. How were you forced to plead guilty?
A. With the threat of going to Huntsville to death row and losing my visitation rights and everything that I had.
Q. Just the same old threats?
A. Yes.
Q. Nothing new or anything in this case?
A. No.
Q. Again you did not tell that judge when you were pleading guilty to these two offices that - -
A. I wasn’t about to, no.
Q. That you were being threatened?
A. Nope.
Q. Do you remember your lawyer’s name that was in the car with you?
A. William Hall is the best I can remember.
Page 2211
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
William Hall, Jr., or something like that.
Q. Did they videotape that trip?
A. Not that one. They didn’t video none of it. They tape recorded it.
Q. They tape recorded the trip in Montgomery County?
A. Yes, and they had the TV follow us out to one of them, the one they dismissed.
Q. There is a couple cases out of Hale County, Texas, Plainview area.
The first one you pled to, Glenna Biggers. Date of that offense, I believe, 12-19-82. And that was the murder of an elderly female in her home, 66 years of age, I believe she was.
Do you remember that case?
I remember that’s the one I was driving the ’73 Pontiac on.
Q. You told them about a ’73 Pontiac on that one?
A. Yeah, it would be the same one I told out here.
Q. You gave them information in that case about the weapons used, a 15-inch butcher knife that was left in her stomach and a fork that was left in her throat. You gave them the information - - You showed
Page 2212
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Them - - You were able to show them then location, according to law enforcement officials in Hale County. You showed them the farm house where the lady was killed at, which was way off the - - quite a ways off the roadway in a small town.
You don’t - - Do you remember that?
No.
Q. Do you remember the facts?
A. I remember the one you’re talking about, but it wasn’t out of town.
Q. Okay.
A. It was inside the town. They took the two knives and the fork or whatever you call it out of the file cabinet and showed it to me. They showed me a whole bunch of things. They showed me all the pictures of the crime, where she was at in the house and everything else.
Q. Who showed you all the pictures?
A. The ranger that was there investigating.
Q. The ranger that was there investigating.
A. Yes.
Q. Was that Jackie Peeples?
A. Now, I - -
Q. Was that his name or you don’t remember?
A. No, not from Lubbock.
Page 2213
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. It was a ranger, though?
A. It was a ranger, Texas Ranger.
Q. Wasn’t Clayton Smith?
A. No. I think Bob Prince was with us and Clayton Smith both, but we met up with the rangers from out in that area.
Q. Were the local law enforcement officials present, also?
A. Yeah, when they took us out to the crime scene.
Q. Well, when the photographs were shown?
A. Yes.
Q. They were present during that and they would be able to say that that did occur?
A. Yes.
Q. And then you did not lead them to the scene, they just took you to the house?
A. Right.
Q. The other case that - - from Hale County was the headless body case.
A. Which they dismissed.
Q. Right. They dismissed that case.
A. Because they forced me to plead to the other two, and they dismissed that one.
Q. Was there anything else in forcing you to
Page 2214
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
plead on this one other than - -
The same thing.
Q. The same thing. Something you didn’t let your lawyer know about, something you didn’t let your - -
A. Well, they switched lawyers on me during the - - I went out. I was supposed to meet my lawyer in his place, and they took me on into the courtroom.
Q. And so that lawyer just came in and he had only been on your case, what, one day?
A. He hadn’t been there 15 minutes.
Q. Just like that he pled you guilty?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you remember what his name was?
A. No, I don’t.
Q. And you got life on that case?
A. Yes.
Q. Did that lawyer even look at the facts of that case or even work on it?
A. I doubt it. He didn’t have time to do it.
Q. And where did you get the details of the headless body, please, out of Plainview?
A. From the one there in Montaque County. They tried to match up my description of my phony cases
Page 2215
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
with another case.
MR. PONTON: What date is that bill that you’re referring to on the headless case?
MR. MOODY:
CHARLES EDWARD FAGEN
Having been first duly sworn by the Court to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, was examined and testified as follows:
MY MR. PONTON:
Q. Would you please state your name?
A. Charles Edward Fagan.
Q. How do you spell that?
A. F A G A N.
Q. How are you employed, sir?
A. I’m a detective corporal assigned to the criminal investigation division with the Lake County Sheriff’s Department in Waukegan, Illinois.
Q. How long have you so been employed?
A. 15 years.
Q. And in that regard, do you have - - what are your responsibilities?
A. I’m a supervisor of all the detectives in the eastern half of Lake County.
Q. Since we are from Texas, please tell the Court where Lake County is in Illinois.
A. Lake County is the northeasternmost county in the state of Illinois. We border Wisconsin to the
Page 2299
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
north and Cook County, which is the city of Chicago, to the south.
Q. And did you have the occasion to investigate a homicide of a certain woman named Lisa Slusser?
A. I did.
Q. And when did she die?
A. August the 24th. She was abducted the 24th of August, 1977. Her body was located August the 26th of 1977.
Q. Okay. And the - - how was she abducted or how was - - how did the crime occur, just very briefly?
A. Approximately 3:00 p.m. in the afternoon she was away from her residence, which is a small subdivision located in a wooded area, and she was out gathering acorns and flowers for a school project and subsequent to that, abducted off her bicycle.
Q. And was that crime still open and still being investigated?
A. Yes, sir, it was.
Q. How old was she?
A. 12 years old.
Q. Now, in 1984 did a certain individual by the name of Henry Lee Lucas come to your attention?
A. He did.
Q. How was that?
Page 2300
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
I was investigating another murder, and during the course of that investigation, my duties let me to Milwaukie, Wisconsin. In conversation with two Milwaukie detectives, Jim Gogger and a Tom Jacklin, I was advised by them they had previously spoken to Henry Lucas and Mr. Lucas confessed to three or four murders within their city limits.
Q. Up in Milwaukie?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And did that make you interested in wanting to talk to him about Miss Slusser’s death?
A. It did.
Q. Did you try to make arrangements to talk to Henry Lee Lucas in regard to the death of Lisa Slusser?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. What did you do to do that?
A. I contacted Sergeant Bob Prince. That name was provided to me by the Milwaukie city detectives.
Q. Did you know who Sergeant Bob Prince was?
A. No, sir, other than I knew he was heading a task force handling Henry Lucas out of Georgetown, Texas.
Q. Did you later find out he was a Texas Ranger?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Page 2301
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. Did Sergeant Prince tell you that talk to Henry Lucas?
A. Sergeant Prince said that schedule pretty rough at the time that I spoke to him and there was quite an extensive waiting list of police officers trying to talk to Henry.
And subsequent to that phone conversation, maybe a week later or so, we were advised by Sergeant Prince in a phone call that members of the Madison Police Department and other Wisconsin agencies would be talking to Henry on June the 10th and 11th. They had a two-day block with them. He suggested that we contact them and see if some way we could fit into their schedule.
Q. Did he ask you to provide any materials or documents to the Texas Ranger task force prior to your interview with Henry Lucas? A. Yes, sir, he did.
Q. And did he was documents concerning the murder of Lisa Slusser?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What documents and materials did he request that you send to the Texas Ranger task force before you could come down to interview Henry Lucas?
A. Crime scene photos, police reports.
Page 2302
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. Any aerial photographs?
A. Yes. Aerial photographs, yes, sir.
Q. Synopsis of the crime?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Photographs of the victim?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Before and after death?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Anything else?
A. No, not that I can recall.
Q. Any maps of the area?
A. Yes, Illinois map. Yes, sir.
Q. So Bob Prince requested before you could talk to Henry Lucas that you send to Georgetown maps of the area, crime scene photographs, photographs of the victim before death, photographs of the victim after death and a description of the crime and a description of the victim. Is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And did you do all of that? A. No, sir, I didn’t.
Q. Why did you not do that? A. I would have rather talked to Henry cold without him having that information.
Q. And did you subsequently come down to talk
Page 2303
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
to Henry Lucas in Georgetown?
Yes, sir, I did.
Q. Is that when you came down with the Milwaukie, Wisconsin, detectives? A. Yes, sir. We met them there.
Q. Now, before you could come talk to Henry Lucas in Georgetown, did you talk to sergeant Bob Prince there regarding your interview with Henry Lucas?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And what did Sergeant Bob Prince tell you you needed to do before your interview with Henry Lucas?
A. Sergeant Prince explained to us that we had to understand that Mr. Lucas had confessed to over 116 murders, I believe, at that time and that he had a little problem with recall. And he suggested, first of all, that we provide Mr. Lucas with the information as - - in regards to when the crime happened, the date, the time, the time of day, the location that she was abducted from, where her body was found. He requested that she be shown - - or that Lucas be shown a picture of the victim and of the crime scene.
Q. And did he also want a map of the area?
A. Yes, sir.
Page 2304
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. And he wanted Mr. Lucas to see all if that before you interviewed Henry Lucas about your crime?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. So then did you provide that information to Bob Prince and Henry Lucas?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And did Henry Lucas have an opportunity to review all of that crime scene information before your interview with him?
A. No, sir. During the interview I reviewed it with Mr. Lucas.
Q. And was that based on your instructions from Bob Prince? A. It was.
Q. So then did you interview Henry Lucas on whether or not he had killed Lisa Slusser?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. Did he confess to killing her?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. Did you think he killed her?
A. No, I didn’t.
Q. Even being given all of that information, wasn’t Mr. Lucas - - tell the Court if Mr. Lucas was able to give colors of the bicycle or things of that nature, some of the significant crime scene details.
Page 2305
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Mr. Lucas was wrong on the color of the bicycle. He was wrong on the size of the bicycle. He was wrong on the physical description of the victim. He was wrong on the actual geography of the area. There weren’t very many consistencies. I don’t recall him being right on anything in regards to her murder.
Q. You previously provided me a videotape of that confession session with Henry Lucas, did you not?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. And this was when you were in Georgetown, Texas, on May 3rd, 1984. Is that correct?
A. No, sir, June the 11th.
Q. Excuse me. June 11th, 1984?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And without playing the whole thing, although I will, after I show it to you, tender it into the record, I want to show you parts of this and I’ll ask you some questions as we go along and stop it. But we will do it - - try to do it briefly and quickly.
A. All right, sir.
(An off-the-record discussion was held.)
THE COURT: Have you-all ever seen this tape?
Page 2306
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
MR. JEWKES: Sir?
THE COURT: Have you seen this?
MR. JEWKES: I don’t believe I have seen it, no, sir. I believe Mr. Moody had.
MR. PONTON: The audio is going to be - -
THE COURT: Sounds a little like Sesame Street.
MR. PONTON: Now I put it on pause.
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) Let me ask you if you can identify this frame at the beginning of this videotape, Detective Fagan?
A. Yes, sir, I can. What you’re reviewing in - -
Q. Is this Henry Lucas here? A. Yes, it is.
Q. That is facing the camera?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And is this the first person in the foreground with his back to the camera, is that you?
A. Yes, sir, it is.
Q. Who is this person to your left?
A. That’s one of the detectives that work for me, Detective Blazincic and he spells his name B L A Z I N C I C.
Q. And this table in front of you, is that the table of the interview room in Georgetown, Texas?
Page 2307
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Yes, sir, it is.
Q. What are all those materials spread out on the table between you and Mr. Lucas?
A. There are a number of things there. First of all, the original police reports and the original abduction on Lisa Slusser, photographs of the crime scene, drawings made by Mr. Lucas, portions of Mr. Lucas’ memoirs.
Q. And when you were asking him questions about whether or not he was involved in the murder of Lisa Slusser, were you showing him all of those materials prior to asking him those questions?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And that was on the instructions of Sergeant Bob Prince of the Texas Ranger task force, wasn’t it?
A. Yes, it was.
Q. And please tell me a little bit, by way of explanation, how that interview would go if you were going to ask him if he had ever seen the victim before. Would you show him a picture of the victim first?
A. Yes, sir. Mr. Prince requested that, first of all, we show him a live picture of the victim. This investigation, which was conducted in 1977, was prior to the time that I went into the criminal
Page 2308
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
investigation division. Therefore, we were unable to locate a live picture of the victim Lisa. We did have a photocopy of a live picture of her, which was very dark in color, and actually what Mr. Lucas saw was an actual crime scene picture of the victim depicting the wound she sustained and the location and the position of her body.
Q. Now, when you showed him the picture of the victim, did you show it in a whole photo showup or photo lineup of the victim and a bunch of other persons or was it just a picture of the victim?
A. Just a picture solely of the victim.
Q. That was the way it had been recommended by Bob Prince, wasn’t it?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And he identified the one picture that you held up to him as being the woman he killed or the girl he killed, didn’t he?
A. Yes.
Q. How else did that interview go, Detective Fagan, when you were asking Henry Lucas about the way the crime occurred? Explain that a little bit to the Court.
A. I unfolded an Illinois map in front of Mr. Lucas at the the beginning of the interview and
Page 2309
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
pointed out on that map the area where the girl was abducted from and also pointed out on that map the area where she was located.
Q. And that was the way that Bob Prince had requested that you conduct the interview, wasn’t it?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Okay. And after you showed Mr. Henry Lucas where the crime occurred and where the girl was taken to, did he tell you whether or not he had taken the girl from that place and to that place? A. Yes, he said he did. But he was very inconsistent with the facts surrounding the events that took place in regards to abduction and murder.
Q. Okay. Did you show Mr. Lucas or describe to Mr. Lucas the place, the school or wherever the victim was abducted from and describe the place where the victim was taken to and so forth?
A. Yes. I described the area she was taken from and he was also shown an aerial photo of the area she was located.
Q. Um-hum. And the aerial photograph, was that at the suggestion of Sergeant Bob Prince? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And after you showed him the aerial photograph, did Mr. Lucas say that area looked
Page 2310
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
familiar?
Yes, he did.
Q. Did he describe that area prior to your showing him the aerial photograph?
A. No, sir.
Q. Was it your opinion he was only describing back to you what he saw in the picture in front of him?
A. It was my opinion we led him all the way through the interview.
Q. Him being led all the way through the interview, is that the normal way that you conducted homicide interviews or interviews with homicide suspects?
A. No, sit, it isn’t.
Q. Had you conducted an interview like that prior to coming down to the Texas Ranger task force?
A. I had probably been involved in over 25 homicide investigations.
Q. The way that that interview was conducted, was that at the specific directions of Sergeant Bob Prince and the Texas Rangers?
A. Yes. And we were also - - it was also pointed out to us to make sure that we didn’t call him a liar, Mr. Lucas. It would upset him.
Page 2312
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. Now, did Henry Lucas talk to you abo… committing this crime with a fellow named Ott..
A. Yes, sir. I recall asking him - - or telling him that I had previously interviewed Ottis Toole and that Ottis Toole stated that this particular murder looked like something Henry would do.
Q. Now, tell - - you went to interview Ottis Toole, didn’t you?
A. I did.
Q. Tell the Court how long that interview took.
A. About two minutes.
Q. How long did it take for you to judge the credibility of Ottis Toole?
A. About the length of the interview, two minutes, not long.
Q. After seeing Ottis Toole, did you think he would have anything believable to say to you or anybody else? A. No, sir.
Q. Now, when you talked to - - did you talk to Bob Prince and the Texas Rangers in Georgetown after your interview with Henry Lucas?
A. I did.
Q. Did you tell them that Henry Lucas had implicated Ottis Toole?
Page 2312
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
No.
Q. Did they later find that out from a synopsis?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did the Texas Rangers ever tell you that Henry Lucas had been identified from certain documents as not even having met Ottis Toole until February of 1979, two years after your crime occurred?
A. No, sir.
Q. Would that have been something that would have affected your judgment on the credibility of Henry Lucas if he was confessing to committing a crime with somebody two years prior to even meeting that person?
A. Well, at this particular point in the interview, Ottis Toole never played a part in our investigation.
Q. I see.
A. He was never mentioned, actually.
Q. The - - Did - - Your interview with Henry Lucas, do you know if that was ever cleared by you?
A. You’re talking about the actual murder?
Q. The actual murder of Lisa Slusser. Was that murder ever cleared by you based upon Henry Lucas’ confession?
A. No, sir.
Page 2313
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. Did I show you a synopsis prepared by … Texas Ranger task force, I believe it was, yeste…
A. Yes, you did.
Q. And in task force synopsis number 149, did I show you where the Texas Rangers had written that they had - - that that case had been cleared by you based upon Henry Lucas’ confession?
A. Yes, it did state that.
Q. It stated that in the task force synopsis?
A. In the synopsis.
Q. Did you ever clear that case? A. No, sir.
Q. Did you ever tell the Texas Rangers you cleared that case?
A. No, sir. As a matter of fact, there were several other things that we requested from the Texas Rangers.
Q. Please tell the Court what you requested from the Texas Rangers after your interview with Henry Lucas so that you could follow up in your investigation of whether or not he was involved with Lisa Slusser.
A. During the course of the interview, Mr. Lucas, he was asked as far as his sexual activities, and he stated to me that while he was incarcerated in
Page 2314
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Prison in Pontiac, Michigan, he attempted to commit suicide by using a razor blade around his abdominal area.
Subsequent to that, he had major stomach surgery and as a result of that surgery, he said that he still become erect and still had the same sensations, sexual sensations, but when he would reach climax he never ejaculated seminal fluid. We were interested if the Department of Public Safety - - and it was requested of Sergeant Prince to see if, in fact, a test could be conducted on Mr. Lucas to see if, in fact, he could ejaculate seminal fluid. Mr. Prince stated that he would see that that test was done.
There had to be four or five subsequent calls in regards to that test, and we have never even as of yet ever received any information in regards to that test.
Q. Are you aware that the Department of Public Safety has a lab reports in their possession showing that Mr. Lucas does ejaculate semen?
A. I’m aware because I talked to you yesterday. That was the first time I was aware that they did conduct any type of test on him.
Q. Were you aware that they had that
Page 2315
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
information probably at the time of your conversation with Sergeant Prince?
No, not at all.
Q. And how many times did you request that the DPS provide you with this laboratory information on whether Henry Lucas could ejaculate semen?
A. Conservatively, three or four times.
Q. And they never gave you that information, did they? A. No.
Q. And if that information showed that Mr. Lucas ejaculated semen, that would clear him from the supposed rape of Lisa Slusser, wouldn’t it?
A. Well, no, sir, it wouldn’t actually. Lisa Slusser, it was never brought out either in the autopsy protocol or during the autopsy itself that the victim was sexually assaulted. The only thing that was brought out is that there was blood around the vaginal area, no semen.
Q. Okay. How long after you talked to Henry Lucas in Georgetown did you talk to Ottis Toole in Florida?
A. I talked to Ottis Toole prior to talking to Henry Lucas.
Q. Where was that?
Page 2316
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
In Jacksonville, Florida.
Q. And did Ottis tell you whether or not he was involved in this case at all?
A. Yes, he said he was not involved in it.
Q. The Court hasn’t met Ottis Toole. Could you please give a little description of him to the Court based on your interview with him?
A. Are you talking about a physical description?
Q. Well, physical and the way he responded to you and the way you judged his credibility, things of that nature.
MR. MOODY: Well, Your Honor, we will object to that. Ottis Toole isn’t on trial here, Henry Lucas is.
THE COURT: Well, I’ll sustain the objection. Let’s go on to something else.
MR. MOODY: Hard enough to try Henry Lucas, let alone Ottis Toole.
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) Did you subsequently find out about some other officers going down to Texas and reinterviewing Henry Lucas about the Slusser case?
A. Yes, sir. Detective Bill Behrens from the Cook County Sheriff’s Department had telephoned out office, and I personally had spoken to him and he advised me that he was - -
Page 2317
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
MR. JEWKES: Objection, Your Honor. We object as to hearsay anything related by the detective from Cook County.
THE COURT: Well, I’m going to let him tell what the detective said. Go ahead.
Mr. Behrens stated that he was going to travel to Georgetown, Texas, for the purposes of interviewing Mr. Lucas in regards to two unsolved homicides of young females they had still under investigation in their county. Prior to going to him, I provided Mr. - - Detective Behrens with an itinerary provided to us from the Department of Public Safety and also explained to them what exactly we were requested to do as far as interviewing Mr. Lucas, instructions that we received from the Department of Public Safety.
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) Those instructions were that before you could interview Henry Lucas you had to show him a crime scene photograph, photograph of the victim before death, photograph of the victim after death, a synopsis of the crime, a map of the area and an aerial photograph. Is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Those are the six things that the Texas
Page 2316
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Rangers told you you had to provide to Henry Lucas before they would allow you to interview him. Is that true?
Yes, sir.
Q. And you told that to the detective from Chicago?
A. Yes, sir. And I also provided him with - - Now we had finally obtained a live photograph of our victim, Lisa Slusser, and I gave him that and five other similar photographs and asked him if he would show those to Mr. Lucas during the course of his interview.
Q. Did he?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. Did Henry Lucas identify Lisa Slusser?
A. Yes. We received a subsequent phone call from Detective Behrens, and he said Mr. Lucas immediately picked out the picture of our victim.
Q. This is after you had shown him the picture a little while ago?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, did it come to pass that that - - that the detective from Chicago solving that crime came out in the media up in Illinois?
A. Yes, sir. Just - - I think it was noteworthy.
Page 2319
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
After we interviewed Mr. Lucas, we never went back to the victim’s parents at all at any time and told them that we had come to Texas to interview Mr. Lucas, because we were not convinced, first of all, of his involvement in the murder, and after the Cook County detective did interview Mr. Lucas, it did appear in the Chicago papers that he had solve two murders in the Cook County area and also the our murder in Lake County had been solved.
Q. And you hadn’t solved that, had you? You still - -
A. It’s still under investigation as we speak.
Q. So what did you have to do with the parents of the victim at that time?
A. We had to really hustle and go up to the parent’s house and - - This is six months later or so - - and explain to them that, yes, we did come and talk to Mr. Lucas in Georgetown, but we felt very strongly that he was not our suspect.
Q. What is your opinion of what happened to you and your dealings with the Texas Rangers? A. I can’t speak very highly of the Department of Public Safety. I thought that they requested us to give Mr. Lucas too much information and lead him through the investigation.
Page 2320
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. Do you feel like they tried to use you?
A. Yes, sir, I do.
Q. Do you feel like the Texas Rangers tried to use you?
A. Yes, sir, I do.
Q. To put another notch in their gun, another case clearing in their statistics?
A. Whatever vernacular you use, yes, I believe so.
Q. Didn’t that seem to be the way you perceived the Texas Rangers’ desires at the time?
A. It seemed like they were interested in statistics, yes, sir.
MR. PONTON: We pass the witness, Your Honor.
BY MR. MOODY:
Q. How long did you interview Henry Lucas?
A. I believe the interview would be approximately an hour or so, hour and a half, within that range.
Q. Approximately one hour?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Interview?
Page 2321
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
That’s a guess.
Q. You were trying to share time with, what, some Wisconsin detectives when you were there? A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. Did you have problems with getting the time scheduled in or - -
A. No, it was just a matter of stand by and wait. And after all the Wisconsin authorities had their opportunity to interview Mr. Lucas if, in fact, there had been any time left over during that two-day block, we were ready. And as it turned out, we did have an opportunity to interview him.
Q. And you mentioned Bill Behrens there.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, Bill Behrens is with the Cook County Sheriff’s Department. Had you ever worked with him before?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did he seem to be a very professional officer, very experienced?
A. I thought he was.
Q. Done hundreds of homicides in Cook County?
A. That, I don’t know, sir.
Q. Anyway, your impression of Mr. Behrens was that he was a very professional officer?
Page 2322
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
My - - I don’t have a very high impression of Mr. Behrens, because the first thing I told him prior to leaving Texas, that we wanted no publicity on the Lisa Slusser case at all.
Q. Are you still with the Waukegan - -
A. Yes, sir, I am. Lake County Sheriff’s Department.
Q. Lake County?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Let’s see. Who is Willie Smith?
A. He is our chief investigator.
Q. Is he your superior?
A. Yes, he is.
Q. All right. Are you aware that I have spoken to Willie Smith?
A. No.
Q. Did you know that Willie Smith told me he thought that you-all had given him too much information, you - - that it was - -
A. Yes.
Q. That it was - - That the problem was with you-all giving him too much information?
A. Absolutely. That is exactly what we told the chief investigator on our return.
Q. Not the Texas Rangers that gave him too much
Page 2323
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
information, it was you-all that gave him too much information?
Yes, sir.
Q. You-all gave him too much information?
A. Yes.
Q. And you only spent, what, one hour there?
A. Around that, yes, around that.
Q. The - - Let’s see. Apparently you said you didn’t have a very high opinion of the Texas Rangers. Is that what you said?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Would you be surprised if they didn’t have a very high opinion of you?
A. Doesn’t surprise me.
Q. That, in fact, they say that they told you not to give him so much information and that, you know, that you were - - that you spent almost no time with Henry Lucas and what time you did spend there you just apparently fed him the information?
A. What would you like for me to reply? I don’t know what you’re looking for.
Q. Well, does it surprise you that, you know, you’re blaming them, they are blaming you?
A. I have no opinion one way or the other.
MR. PONTON: Does Mr. - - Excuse me, Your
Page 2324
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Honor. I object unless Mr. Moody’s stating that the Texas Rangers are blaming him based on some report which we have not had an opportunity to review.
MR. MOODY: No, there is no report.
THE COURT: Okay.
MR. PONTON: Is there any reported conversations with the Texas Rangers regarding this that we haven’t seen?
MR. MOODY: No, there is not.
MR. PONTON: We have sought discovery and we have not seen any - -
MR. MOODY: No, there isn’t.
MR. PONTON: - - documents regarding any criticism of this gentleman by the Texas Rangers.
MR. MOODY: There is none.
THE COURT: Well, let me clarify it. I haven’t heard this gentleman blame the Texas Rangers for anything nor have I heard the Texas Rangers blame him. I think the blame is - - these are statements being made by Mr. Moody, that nobody is blaming anybody. We are trying to get to the truth of what happened.
Q. (BY MR. MOODY) How many days did you spend in Georgetown?
A. I don’t recall. Two days, I believe.
Page 2325
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. And let’s see. Are you aware that some of the Wisconsin authorities still feel comfortable with their cases?
A. No, I’m not.
Q. You don’t think they do not feel or you just don’t know?
A. I don’t care.
Q. You’re not saying, though, in this case - - You know nothing about the Librada Apodaca case?
A. No, sir, I don’t.
Q. The case in Texas, how it was handled?
A. No, sir.
Q. What happened to it?
A. No, sir.
Q. Don’t know anybody involved?
A. No, sir.
Q. No idea. He could have killed the person, he might not?
A. No, sir.
Q. You got to talk to Henry Lucas long enough, you got to look into his background long enough?
A. Yes, sir, a little bit.
Q. He certainly wouldn’t be the kind of person you would like to take back to Waukegan, Illinois, and living next door to you, is he?
Page 2326
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
He would have been the kind of person I would have loved to take back to Waukegan, Illinois.
Q. And live next door to you?
A. No. And to have him get in a car and show me exactly the circumstances surrounding the death of Lisa Slusser, only under those circumstances. No, I wouldn’t want him to be my neighbor, no.
Q. And I think that Bill Behrens still feels comfortable with one of the cases he has.
A. I can’t speak for Detective Behrens. I don’t know.
Q. You’re not coming in here and saying that Henry Lucas isn’t a mass murderer or is he, are you?
A. I can only speak for Lisa Slusser.
Q. Okay. Just one case? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You don’t think, in your opinion, he killed Lisa Slusser?
A. No, sir, I don’t.
Q. As to any other case, you just have no opinion?
A. I have no opinion.
MR. MOODY: No further questions.
MR. PONTON: Just a couple, Your Honor.
Page 2327
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
REDIRECT EXAMIANTION
BY MR. PONTON:
Q. Detective Fagan, the two days you spent in Georgetown, there were a lot of officers waiting to talk to Henry Lucas, weren’t there?
A. Yes, sir, there was.
Q. Did you sit and talk to some of them while you were waiting to get your interview slot to see Henry Lucas?
A. Yes.
Q. And did these other officers also tell you that they had been given the six requirements prior to being allowed to interview Henry Lucas by the Texas Rangers?
A. Basically, yes.
Q. That the Texas Rangers were basically telling all of these officers that before they could - - before any of you could interview Henry Lucas you had to go in and show Henry Lucas crime scene photos, victim photos before death, victim photos after death, an aerial photograph, a map and a synopsis of the crime. Is that correct?
A. Yes. The only exception to that, I don’t believe victim photos after death. I think that he was more interested in victim photos prior to death.
Page 2328
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
But in our case, we had no actual photographs of the victim prior to death.
Q. But those other five requirements that I spoke to you about - -
A. Yes, sir.
Q. - - were those five requirements - - were those five requirements an instruction not only to you, but to your knowledge to the other officers that you were waiting with to see Henry Lucas? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And the Texas Rangers instructed all of you officers from out of town that before you could interview Henry Lucas, you had to satisfy these five requirements, show him that information and then interview him on whether or not he was involved in that death?
A. Yes, sir, that’s basically it.
MR. PONTON: We pass the witness, Your Honor.
Wait. Wait. Excuse me, Your Honor, I have a question from Ms. Sipes.
Q. (BY MS. SIPES) Now, this tape that I showed you that I’ll mark for purposes of this hearing as Defendant’s Exhibit 27, is this a copy of the - - or the original of the videotape that you took in Georgetown when you interviewed Henry Lucas?
Page 2329
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Yes, sir, I believe it’s the original tape.
Q. Let me pop it out and ask you to identify it for me. Tomorrow I’ll bring my tape player. Maybe we can see it at the regular speed.
Now I’ll mark this for purposes of this hearing as Defendant’s Exhibit Number 27 and ask if you can identify Defendant’s Exhibit 27?
(Defendant’s exhibit marked, D-27.)
Yes, sir, this is my writing that gives the original report number on the abduction and homicide and my writing that it was a taped interview with Henry Lee Lucas. That’s the original.
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) As to your knowledge, is this the full and complete - - the full and complete videotape of the interview you took with Henry Lucas in Georgetown, Texas?
A. Yes, sir. Mr. Lucas operated the camera.
Q. Okay. This Mr. Lucas?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. And to your knowledge, are there any alterations or additions to this tape?
A. No, sir.
MR. PONTON: At This time we would move to admit Defendant’s Exhibit Number 27 into evidence in this cause, Your Honor, for purposes of this hearing.
Page 2330
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
MR. JEWKES: Your Honor, we object on the grounds the proper predicate hasn’t been laid for the admissibility of the tape. There is no showing as to whether or not that is an original or duplicate. There is no showing whether or not - -
THE COURT: Well, the man testified it was the original.
MR. PONTON: Yeah, he did.
THE COURT: Is there any - -
MR. PONTON: He testified it was the original. He testified that it was the complete tape. He testified that no alterations or additions had been made to the tape.
THE COURT: Well, of course, we don’t know it’s a complete tape because we haven’t been able to see it.
MR. PONTON: Right. But based on this witness’ knowledge of the outside of it, that’s what he said, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Is there an audio part of that?
MR. PONTON: There is, but it’s - - it’s squeaky. It’s too fast for this tape machine, Your Honor, and what I propose to do is play the tape or portions of the tape in the morning when I bring my own tape machine that plays at the proper speed.
Page 2331
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
But let me ask a couple more questions of this witness. It might clear it up.
THE COURT: Go ahead.
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) You and I viewed part of this tape in my office yesterday evening, did we not?
A. Yes.
Q. Did we view the same tape that is now marked as Defendant’s Exhibit 27?
A. Yes, sir.
Q, Did that audio work at the time you and I viewed it?
Yes.
Q. And did the video work?
A. Yes.
Q. And to your knowledge, is it still the same tape as the original tape that was taken when you interviewed Henry Lucas in Georgetown, Texas?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. With no additions, alterations or subtractions?
A. No, sir.
MR. PONTON: Move for its admission at this time, Your Honor.
MR. JEWKES: Your Honor, at this time we would ask the Court to withhold admitting it until we
Page 2332
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Have a chance to see it to make sure it’s in an all - -
THE COURT: Well, all right. And I can’t admit it, Mr. Ponton, under the present circumstances for that particular reason.
MR. PONTON: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Now, here is the problem. Let’s assume we play that tape tomorrow morning and everything works fine. This gentleman isn’t here. Then the tape is not going to be admissible because no is here to identify that as being the original tape.
So what Mr. Jewkes is telling you is that if you want to introduce that tape, he is going to make you keep this gentleman here overnight. Now, that’s what he is saying and so we are going to have to pay for it, but that’s all right with me. It’s just another bill that the county is going to pay for. You have a nice evening. You have a nice meal. We are going to pay for it. That’s what you want, that’s what we’ll do. And the expense is on the county.
(An evening recess was taken.)
Page 2333
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
THE STATE OF TEXAS )
)
VS. ) CAUSE NO. 43314-120
)
HENRY LEE LUCAS )
heard on
OCTOBER 2, 1986
Page 2334
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Page 2335
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
For the State: WILLIAM MOODY
First Assistant District Attorney
City-county Building
El Paso, TX 79901
RICHARD JEWKES
Assistant District Attorney
City-county Building
El Paso, TX 79901
CAROL PENNOCK
Assistant District Attorney
City-county Building
El Paso, TX, 79901
For the Defendant: ROD PONTON
Attorney at Law
Suite 505
El Paso, TX 79901
DORIS SIPES
Attorney at Law
1011 North Mesa
El Paso, TX 79901
Page 2336
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
WITNESSES: PAGE
CHARLES FAGEN
Cont’d Redirect Examination by Mr. Ponton 2341
Recross-examination by Mr. Moody 2346
Redirect Examination by Mr. Ponton 2348
TED EVERETT
Direct Examination by Mr. Ponton 2353
Cross-examination by Mr. Moody 2373
Redirect Examination by Mr. Ponton 2382
BOB LEMONS
Direct Examination by Mr. Ponton 2385
MIKE FEARY
Direct Examination by Mr. Ponton 2427
Cross-Examination by Mr. Moody 2499
BART DAULTON
Direct Examination by Mr. Ponton 2541
Cross-Examination by Mr. Moody 2556
Redirect Examination by Mr. Ponton 2560
ROBERT H. COLLISON
Direct Examination by Mr. Ponton 2562
Cross-Examination by Mr. Moody 2571
Page 2337
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
WITNESSES: PAGE
ROBERT H. COLLISON
Direct Examination by Mr. Ponton 2562
Cross-Examination by Mr. Moody 2571
BART DAULTON
Direct Examination by Mr. Ponton 2541
Cross-Examination by Mr. Moody 2556
Redirect Examination by Mr. Ponton 2560
TED EVERETT
Direct Examination by Mr. Ponton 2353
Cross-examination by Mr. Moody 2373
Redirect Examination by Mr. Ponton 2382
CHARLES FAGEN
Cont’d Redirect Examination by Mr. Ponton 2341
Recross-examination by Mr. Moody 2346
Redirect Examination by Mr. Ponton 2348
MIKE FEARY
Direct Examination by Mr. Ponton 2427
Cross-Examination by Mr. Moody 2499
BOB LEMONS
Direct Examination by Mr. Ponton 2385
Page 2338
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
EXHIBIT DESCRIPTION MARKED IDENTIFIED OFFERED REC’D
D-27 Tape 2345 2345
D-28 Synopsis 2367 2367
D-29 Letter 2412 2412
D-30 Report 2444 2445
Page 2339
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
IN THE DISTICT COURT OF EL PASO COUNTY, TEXAS
THE STATE OF TEXAS )
)
VS ) CAUSE NO. 43314-120
)
HENRY LEE LUCAS )
BE IT REMEMBERED that on the 2nd day of October 1986, beginning at 9:05 a.m., came in to be heard the continuation of pretrial motions in the above styled and numbered cause, before the HONORABLE BRUNSON MOORE, Judge Presiding in and for the 120th Judicial District Court, and that the same was reported by Meryl Wersinger, Certified Shorthand Reporter and Notary Public in and for County Court at Law Number four, El Paso County, Texas, and that the following proceedings were had as follows, to wit:
Page 2340
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
THE COURT: All right, Mr. Ponton. You can continue with Mr. Fagan.
MR. PONTON: Thank you, Your Honor.
BY MR. PONTON:
Q. Detective, yesterday we were talking about your involvement in the investigation about the death of Lisa Ann Slusser, and I want to show you what it is - - what will be identified for the purposes of the record as the DPS Lucas Task force synopsis, the new version, and these are some documents that have been provided for us by the district attorney’s office.
And here at task force synopsis number 135, can you please tell me if this is listed as a - - if this is not listed as a cleared case here in the task force synopsis, all of the cases in the synopsis are cases that have been noted as cleared?
Yes, sir. It indicates on this synopsis that the case was cleared by myself and Detective Blazincic.
Q. And that is shown in task force synopsis number 135 prepared by the Texas Rangers and the Texas Department of Public Safety.
Now, did you ever clear that case, Detective
Page 2341
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Fagan?
No, sir.
Q. Did Detective Blazincic - - Pardon my pronunciation - - ever clear that case?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did you ever tell the Texas Rangers you had cleared that case?
A. No, sir.
Q. All you had done was go down to Georgetown and interview Henry Lucas. Is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, I want to show you the copy here of the interview that was at issue yesterday, and once again I’ll ask if you can identify this videotape which I’ll hand you and which has been marked as Defendant’s Exhibit 27.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. In Williamson County, Texas?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Can you see the screen?
A. Yes, sir, I can.
THE COURT: Mr. Moody, why don’t you move so
Page 2342
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
You can see it, if you want to. Do you want to see this?
MR. MOODY: I have no objections to this. I don’t need to see it.
(At this time, a portion of Defendant’s Exhibit 27 was played with the following transcription: )
MR. FAGAN: “And you can see, it goes right out the back door. This is where she was picked up, in this area here.”
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) It would be easier - - And I don’t think the Court Reporter needs to take down the audio of the tape, but I want to ask you some questions based upon what we can see here.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Does this look to be a true and correct copy of the tape I have just showed you, which is Defendant’s Exhibit 27?
A. Yes, sir, it does.
Q. And, in fact, you were in my office last night after court when you were - - when we were making this copy, were you not?
A. Yes, sir, I was.
Q. This copy I have here, does this show the events that took place on June 11th, 1984, when you
Page 2343
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
were interviewing Henry Lucas?
It does.
Q. What are you doing here, can you tell? Are you showing Henry Lucas something?
A. Yes, sir, I’m showing him an Illinois map and I’m showing him the area where the victim was abducted from and the area where she was located at.
Q. And what are some of these other items that are on this table between where Detective Blazincic is sitting and Henry Lucas is sitting?
A. Crime scene pictures, pictures that were drawn by Mr. Lucas indicating a girl lying in tall grass, our police reports, photographs of the crime scene, which I’m showing him right now, I believe.
Q. And you have a copy - - you have several photographs there that you’re showing him there, are you not?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, had he identified that victim prior to being shown those photographs?
A. No.
Q. So you were showing him just the photographs of the victim and asking him if he had seen that person before?
A. Yes, sir.
Page 2344
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. And what did he say?
A. He said he believed he picked one up - - one up along up in there.
Q. Did you subsequently check on the details of what he said had occurred when he murdered Lisa Ann Slusser?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Were any of his details correct?
A. No, sir.
MR. PONTON: Your Honor, I would at this time move for the introduction of Defendant’s Exhibit 27 into evidence in this cause and also ask that this copy of it be the actual tape introduced into evidence so this detective can take his original back with him.
MR. MOODY: I have no objection to that, Your Honor. That’s fine.
THE COURT: Be admitted, then.
THE COURT: What number was that, Mr. Ponton?
MR. PONTON: 27, Your Honor.
We have no further questions of this witness, Your Honor.
MR. MOODY: Only a couple questions.
Page 2345
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
BY MR. MOODY:
Q. You stated that when you were asking Henry Lucas, the defendant in this case, the details, he told you - - he just got none of the details correct. Right?
A. Yes, sir. He didn’t get any of them correct. The color of the bike, physical description of the girl, clothing description, geographical indications in the area she was taken from, road surfaces, nothing.
Q. He didn’t even get lucky on one point?
A. Not that I can recall. He got lucky on every point we told him.
Q. Right, yeah. In the preinterview he got nothing correct?
A. There was no preinterview conducted with him. That’s the - -
Q. Oh. Actually, in the first, if we watched the whole thing, we could see it where you talked to him?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And he has nothing correct, and then when you start giving him the information, then he can just give it back to you?
Page 2346
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Yes, sir, this is correct.
Q. And you realized the problem of that when you - - probably as you were doing it, and maybe even more so dramatically when you went back and watched your own videotape in Illinois?
A. Yes, sir. I think more so after we reviewed the tape.
Q. No question in your mind that way that this particular interview was handled, the information what was given to him, the case was contaminated to the degree?
A. Yes, it was.
Q. That you couldn’t make any conclusion based on it?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Were the rangers present when you were doing this interview with Mr. Lucas?
A. No, sir.
Q. Let’s see. Based on - - You had - - Had you done any background study on Henry Lucas, what kind of person he was, you know, what kind of offenses he had been involved in?
A. No, sir.
Q. At any time?
A. No, sir.
Page 2347
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. Have you since?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. Like you said, you can’t make any conclusions about the other cases?
A. No.
Q. Certainly from the information you have learned about Henry Lucas, do you believe that he is the type of person that is capable of committing a number of murders?
A. I can’t come to any conclusion on that, sir. I was basically only interested in one murder case we had in Illinois. I have no opinions one way or the other.
Q. Okay. Thank you.
MR. PONTON: Couple more questions.
BY MR. PONTON:
Q. Detective, did the Texas Rangers tell you in June of 1984 when you questioned Henry Lucas that Henry Lucas had told them that he was living in New Castle - - in Wilmington, New Castle County, Delaware, on August 24, 1977?
A. No, sir.
Q. And that he was working at a place called
Page 2348
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Airway Carpet and had payroll records to reflect that he was living there in August - - living there in Delaware and working there in Delaware on August 24, 1977?
No, sir, they didn’t.
Q. Now, they did tell you that Henry’s interview would go a lot better if you brought him something, didn’t they?
A. Well, yes.
Q. Now, if this judge sat here for about an hour of this interview, there would be a time when you would leave the room there on the videotape. Is that correct?
A. That’s correct, sir.
Q. When you left that room, what were you doing? Please tell the Court.
A. I gave Sergeant Prince a $20 bill to buy Mr. Lucas a couple cartons of cigarettes, and it’s indicated after I returned to the room I stated to Mr. Lucas that gave Sergeant Prince money to buy him cigarettes.
Q. That pleased Mr. Lucas, didn’t it?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And why did you do that, Detective?
A. We were told by the Texas Rangers, Sergeant
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Prince, that if we brought him cigarettes it would be a nice gesture.
Q. Things would go better in the interview if you would bring Mr. Lucas a couple of cartons of cigarettes? Is that pretty much what they told you?
A. Yes.
Q. When you made this videotape, was this equipment already there or did you have to bring your own equipment down? A. The equipment was set up.
Q. Do you know if - - You were there for, what, three days?
A. Two or three days. I’m not sure on that.
Q. Was this equipment there the whole time?
A. It was there the time I was there. I can’t speak for the other times.
Q. Right. That’s what I referring to, the whole time that you were there.
A. Yes.
Q. Was it set up for every interview with Henry Lucas to videotape?
A. Yes. The other Wisconsin agencies also videotaped their interviews.
Q. Did you observe any interviews with Henry Lucas where the videotape equipment was not operating,
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
not recording?
I’m not aware of any.
MR. PONTON: That’s all we have, Your Honor.
MR. MOODY: All right.
BY MR. MOODY:
Q. You were not - - You had - - You have had some experience in taking statements from defendants, have you not?
A. Yes, sir, I have.
Q. And you knew that - - you know that you cannot give or promise anything in exchange for statements. Correct?
A. Yes, sir, I do.
Q. And you were not giving these cigarettes in exchange for this videotape, were you?
A. No, sir.
Q. I mean, it’s not uncommon for police officers to keep defendants comfortable in Illinois or whatever state, to let them have some cigarettes, let them have coffee, to let them eat or to during while they are in the interview. Isn’t that correct?
A. This is true, yes, sir.
MR. MOODY: Nothing further.
Page 2351
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
MR. PONTON: That’s all we have for this witness.
THE COURT: May this witness go?
MR. MOODY: Yes, sir.
MR. PONTON: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: On back to wherever he’s - - to Illinois or wherever. Thank you, sir.
Thank you, Judge.
MR. PONTON: He is excused. He may have to be recalled at the trial before the jury, but - -
THE COURT: Well, Mr. Fagan, if indeed this case goes to trial, we will have a trial before the end of this year. I’m getting ready to call a jury panel within the next 10 days.
All right, sir.
THE COURT: Let’s call the next witness.
I think that’s what I’m planning to do. Right now that’s the procedure.
Mr. Moody, that doesn’t mean I have overruled their motion at this point in time. Of course, Ms. Sipes, I want you to understand I haven’t prejudged your case. I think, you know, any reasonable attorney might think I have done that and I haven’t.
MS. SIPES: I understand that, Your Honor.
Page 2352
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
THE COURT: What I’m saying is or trying to say, that if this case goes forward, it will go forward immediately after we get through with these hearings.
MS. SIPES: I understand that, Your Honor.
THE COURT: There will only be a break of a few days and that break will only be for the purpose of getting that jury sworn in and getting those people here, because we are going to continue on with this case until we finally finalize it.
All right, sir. Please take a seat in the witness chair.
Would you raise your right hand, please, sir?
TED EVERETT,
Having been first duly sworn by the Court to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, was examined and testified as follows:
BY MR. PONTON:
Q. Please state your name.
A. Ted Everett.
Q. Where do you live?
Page 2353
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
I live in Analaska, Texas.
Q. What county is that in?
A. Polk County.
Q. What is your occupation?
A. I’m the sheriff of Polk County.
Q. How long have you been sheriff of Polk County, Texas?
A. I have been sheriff since 1981.
Q. And please briefly tell the Court your background in law enforcement and things of that nature.
A. I have been in law enforcement since 1975. I was a deputy sheriff under two other sheriffs. I worked as an investigator for the district attorney’s office and I was elected sheriff in 1981.
Q. The - - How many people are in the sheriff’s department there in Polk County?
A. 27.
Q. Now - -
THE COURT: Mr. Ponton, I think you ought to turn that TV off.
MR. PONTON: Yeah. I’m sorry, Your Honor. I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to leave it on.
THE COURT: Thank you.
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) Now, Sheriff, did you have
Page 2354
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Occasion to be involved in an investigation that led you to interview the suspect in that investigation, Henry Lucas?
Yes.
Q. And what was - - was that a homicide? A. Yes, it was.
Q. Who was the victim of that homicide?
A. The victim is unknown.
Q. What was her date of death?
A. That is unknown.
Q. When was her body found?
A. Her body was found in 1977, I believe November of 1977, if I remember correctly.
Q. In regards to that, please tell me a little bit about the investigation into that and how Henry Lucas first came up as a suspect in that case.
A. The body was found, like I say, in 1977. The officer that was investigating it at that time was named Kenneth Acker. Later, years later, Mr. Acker quit the sheriff’s department and moved to Cherokee County and went to work with the sheriff’s department there.
The case involving the unknown body of a
Page 2355
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Female had never been solved and had never been identified, either. Mr. Acker called me in 1984 and advised me that he felt that Lucas could identify the girl and that he had killed her.
Q. Now, when Mr. Acker - - when Deputy Acker interviewed Henry Lucas in Cherokee County, is Cherokee County near Polk County?
A. It’s several counties away.
Q. But it’s in the same part of the state?
A. Yes.
Q. When he interviewed Henry Lucas in Cherokee County, was Mr. Lucas there with some Texas Rangers?
A. Yes, he was.
Q. And was he there with some Texas Rangers to look at supposedly some crime scenes in Cherokee County?
A. Let me correct that. I assume he was. I wasn’t there, so - -
Q. Now - - And Deputy Acker told you that Henry Lucas had confessed to the murder of this unidentified female?
A. That’s correct.
Q. Now, did you have an idea at that time who this unidentified female might be?
Page 2356
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
A. Did I personally have one? No.
Q. Did the department?
A. It was believed that it was a possibility it was a Stephanie Lee Smith.
Q. Okay. Now, please tell the Court who Stephanie Lee smith was.
A. Stephanie Lee Smith was a white female. She was born and raised in Florida. She was going to college, I think, in New Orleans, medical college there, trying to get to a job there or something, and she disappeared from the college campus there, right off of it, in 1977.
Q. Now, who was her father?
A. Mr. Smith was - - I think at that time he was chief of police in Florida, some small town in Florida. I don’t really remember.
Q. Would it be Dunedin, Florida, D U N E D I N? A. Yes, that sounds correct.
Q. Now, when the deputy came to you and told you that Henry Lucas had confessed to this crime, did he give you any details of what he thought Henry Lucas would say regarding his involvement in the case?
A. Yes. He had a - - He had been corresponding throughout the years, I think, with the Smith family,
Page 2357
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
And he had - - some of the things he had received was a photograph of Stephanie Lee Smith, which he gave me to put in a photographic lineup. I went to a studio and they gave me some other pictures of young girls about - - approximately the same age, and I put that photograph in with the other photographs. And he told me at the time, he says, “He is going to pick her picture out, but he is going to say she had hair like Farah Fawcett.”
Q. And this photo lineup, had you given this photo lineup to Deputy Acker?
A. I hadn’t give it to him, no. I had it.
Q. Oh. Did he have a photograph of the victim, however?
A. Yes, he gave me the photograph of the victim.
Q. In your photo lineup that you showed subsequently to Henry Lucas, you had eight photographs?
A. That’s correct.
Q. And one was a homemade photograph of the victim made by her family; in other words, it was a snapshot?
A. Yes.
Q. And the other seven photographs were professional studio type pictures with good
Page 2358
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
nature, sharp detail. Is that correct?
I would say, yeah. Now, I’m not positive that that was a home photo. It was approximately the same size as the others.
Q. If you had to describe the difference between the photograph of the victim and the other seven photographs, could you describe any difference between those?
A. Yes, quality, and the picture is not as sharp as the others.
Q. Okay. Now, when did Henry Lucas come to Polk County, Texas?
A. Okay. For the interview? Q. Yes.
A. Okay. He came in 1984, February, I believe it was.
Q. And did you interview Henry Lucas that day? A. I did.
Q. Who else was with Henry Lucas when he came to Polk County in February of 1984?
A. Ranger Bob Prince, and I think there was a pilot.
Q. Did you interview Henry Lucas first at the Polk County courthouse or did you-all go to a crime
Page 2359
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
scene first?
We interviewed him first at the Polk County jail, I believe, and then - - That’s where my office is. And then we went to Corrigan, Texas, to the police department there where we spoke - - or where he, I think gave a confession. We took down details of the confession he took.
Q. In that confession, he talked about he and Ottis Toole coming through New Orleans in June of 1977, didn’t he?
A. That’s correct.
Q. And then he went on to talk about some detail of killing this Stephanie Lee Smith. Is that correct?
A. That’s correct.
Q. Now, the - - previously the deputy, the other deputy had told you that Henry Lucas would pick out the photograph of the victim but that Lucas would say that her hair was different at the time she was abducted, that she had a Farah Fawcett hairdo. Is that correct?
A. That’s correct.
Q. Now, did you show Henry Lucas your photo spread of eight pictures?
A. I did.
Page 2360
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. At the Polk County jail?
A. I did.
Q. What did Henry Lucas do with that?
A. He looked at it briefly, he says, “This is the girl,” and then he pointed to the picture of Stephanie Lee Smith. He said, “This is the girl, but she didn’t have hair like this. She had hair like Farah Fawcett,” and pointed to another one of the pictures of a girl in another picture that had hair like Farah Fawcett.
Q. And then he told you the details of the way the alleged abduction and rape and killing took place. Is that correct?
A. Eventually, yes.
Q. Now, Henry Lucas then went with you and some other deputies and Bob Prince out to the crime scene, didn’t he? A. That’s correct.
Q. Is that a rural area of Polk County?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. How many dirt roads - - How many miles of dirt roads are there in Polk County, would you estimate? A. There are thousands of miles of dirt roads in Polk County.
Page 2361
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. And Henry - - Please tell the Court how Henry Lucas did when he was leading you-all to the crime scene where the person you thought was Stephanie Lee Smith had been found.
A. I - - For whatever reasons, I was a little suspicious of the whole thing, so I made sure he rode with me. I drove and he sat in the front seat with me, and I told him I was going to go north on 59 and when he wanted me to turn, just tell me to turn or to tell me where to turn.
And we crossed - - As soon as you leave Corrigan north on 59, the first dirt road to the left, he indicated for me to turn on it.
Q. Did you proceed up that road?
A. I did.
Q. Did that road eventually lead to the vicinity of where the person you thought was Stephanie Lee Smith had been found? A. That’s correct.
Q. How close did Henry Lucas get to that location that day?
A. Well, within several miles.
Q. Maybe about five? A. Yeah. From Corrigan PD to where the body was was a little over five miles, so I would guess
Page 2362
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Probably within two or three miles of it.
Q. Did you consider that pretty close for the rural nature of your county and - -
A. That’s extremely close, yes.
Q. Sort of like finding a needle in a haystack, isn’t it?
A. Yes.
Q. Did that make you think that Henry Lucas might be involved in that abduction and death?
A. Yes.
Q. Then did you do a follow-up investigation to try to confirm what Henry Lucas had told you about that crime?
A. Yes, we did what we could. Do you want me to tell what I did?
Q. Yeah. For instance, didn’t you exhume the body? A. Yes, I had the body exhumed. I was able to locate some x-rays of Stephanie Lee Smith’s feet in Florida. It seems that she had had spurs on her heels and she had had an operation on those spurs. The x-rays, we took and sent with the bones of her feet along with the x-rays to the experts and they said it was not her.
Q. So the person that Henry Lucas identified as
Page 2363
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
killing in 1977 was not the person whose body was found in your county?
That’s correct.
Q. Do you know who that body is?
A. I do not.
Q. To this day? A. I do not.
Q. Now, the - -
A. I - -
Q. Yes. Go ahead, please.
A. Do you want me to finish?
Q. Please finish. Tell us what else you did on the followup?
A. Well, I - - several months after that, after we confirmed it was not her, I went - - made an appointment to go to Georgetown to visit with Henry again. At this time I was extremely suspicious of what he had told us, so I took several of the newspaper people with me and asked to interview Henry. And they let me in to interview Henry with the newspaper people, and I showed him the lineup again, the same lineup that I had showed him and he could not pick the girl’s picture out at this time.
Q. How many months was this after you had - - after Henry Lucas had previously identified her
Page 2364
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
picture?
I would - - I don’t remember, to be honest, but I think it was about two or three.
Q. Two or three months?
A. Yes, it wasn’t very long afterwards.
Q. And two or three months after identifying Stephanie Lee Smith as the person he killed in Polk County, he couldn’t pick her picture out in the same photo lineup he was shown three months before?
A. That’s right.
Q. If your initial interview with Henry was in February of ’84, then your second interview would have been approximately in May, somewhere in that time frame?
A. That would be close, yes.
Q. In February of 1984, did you talk with Bob Prince when Bob Price was with Henry Lucas in Polk County, Texas? A. Well, yeah, I’m sure I talked with him briefly.
Q. Did you - - Do you remember talking with Bob Prince after Henry Lucas said he and Ottis Toole had abducted and killed Stephanie Lee Smith? Do you remember sharing any information with Bob Prince about Ottis Toole?
Page 2365
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Bob Price was right there with us the whole time. You know, it’s not like I had to share it with him. He was there when it was going on.
Q. Did Bob Prince ever tell you during the time that Henry Lucas was confessing to killing Stephanie Smith in the summer of ’77 that the Texas Rangers had information that Henry Lucas did not even meet Ottis Toole until February of 1979?
A. No.
Q. He never told you that?
A. Not that I remember. I remember no conversation about Ottis Toole being - - or when - - I distinctly remember being under the impression that Lucas and O’Toole - - or Toole were together.
Q. That’s what Henry told you?
A. Yes.
Q. And - -
A. I don’t remember anyone ever telling me anything different.
Q. And that’s what Henry Lucas told you in front of Bob Prince?
A. That’s correct.
Q. And Bob Prince never told you that they knew that Henry didn’t even meet Ottis Toole until two years later?
Page 2366
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
No.
Q. Now, I want to - -
MR. PONTON: May I approach the witness, Your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes, sir.
(Defendant’s exhibit marked, D-28.)
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) I want to show you what I’ll mark as Defendant’s exhibit 28. Is that correct?
This will be a copy of the - - what will be known as the Lucas task force synopsis new number 57. And I showed you this yesterday, didn’t I, where this was the book that document, Defendant’s 28, came from the task force synopsis of all the cleared offenses attributed to Henry Lucas. Is that correct?
Okay. You haven’t showed me this document.
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) Okay. Well, then, I’ll ask if you can read it then.
MR. PONTON: It’s new number 57 from the task force synopsis book.
MR. MOODY: What?
MR. PONTON: It’s new number 57 from the task force synopsis book.
Is this a 5 or a 6?
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) I think that’s number 57.
A. No, right here.
Page 2367
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. It looks like a six to me.
A. It looks to me like, “On 6-10-77 Stephanie Lee Smith disappeared without a trace after leaving a job interview at the LSU medical complex in New Orleans, Louisiana. On 11-25 of ’77, skeletal remains of victim unidentified at the time were found in a rural area of Polk County, Texas. Also found at the scene was a Playboy magazine.
“On 2-22 of ’84 Lucas was taken to Polk County after he had described a kidnapping - - after he had described kidnapping a young lady in New Orleans and killing her in Polk County, Texas. He further stated he strangled the victim manually and possibly may have stabbed her, also.
“Lucas was shown a photo spread of eight white females generally the same age with a live photo of the victim included. Lucas without hesitation picked the victim’s photo.
“At the time the victim was kidnapped she was wearing Farah Fawcett hairstyle and she did not have it in photo included in the photo spread. However, one of the eight girls did have the hairstyle described when Lucas picked out the victim’s picture. He also pointed to another photo
Page 2368
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Of a Farah Fawcett hairstyle and stated, ‘This is the hairstyle that should be on the victim.’
“Lucas then led officers to the scene where he and Toole had killed the victim and left her body, further stating they had left a Playboy magazine nearby. Lucas then described how he and Toole had abducted the victim and Lucas had raped her numerous times and on each occasion Toole had watched and masturbated. He also stated that both he and Toole had raped the victim after death.
“Lucas advised they were driving a 1965 Ford Country Squire station wagon, green in color, with Maryland license plates. The father of the victim is chief of police in Dunedin, Florida.
“Cleared by Polk County Sheriff Ted Everett, Texas Ranger Tommy Walker.”
Q. Have you ever seen that document before or the Texas Ranger synopsis before, Sheriff?
A. I believe I have, yes.
Q. Did you clear this offense?
A. No, I did not.
Q. It’s not cleared today, is it?
A. No. On the day that Lucas was there, I believe that they asked us if we considered it cleared, and I believe the reply basically was that
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
we do until something else comes up.
But of course, at that time he had given us a confession and led us to the scene, and that’s really the time that you start investigating.
Q. It was within how many months of that initial confession that you discovered that the person that Henry Lucas had confessed to killing wasn’t the person whose body was found in the county?
A. Well, it was within a month.
Q. And so within a month you knew that Henry Lucas’ confession was not only wrong on other details, but it was wrong on the victim?
A. That’s correct.
Q. And a month later, did you consider it cleared?
A. No.
Q. And you didn’t consider it cleared at the time of that initial confession, did you?
A. I think probably the consensus was that it was cleared at that initial sitting. I think the impression was, you know, this is it. So it was not until the further investigation when the body was exhumed and found to be the wrong person that the
Page 2370
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Doubts really arose or that I could convince anyone else that it wasn’t her.
Q. Now, the body was found in November of ‘’77. Do you-all have any estimation as to the time that body might have - - that person might have been killed? Would it have been summer of 1977?
A. Yeah, probably. Yes. The body was very deteriorated when it was found, It had been in the ground, I think, several months.
Q. And did - - Well, If you had to estimate a time frame in which that person would have disappeared, could you do that, that the person would have been killed and left there in your county?
A. Yes, within two months prior of finding the body, at least.
Q. And up to how long before? Would it be two months to three months or three months to four months, or is there any time frame you can give me?
A. Possibly the autopsy could. I couldn’t myself. I never saw the body at the time or was involved in the investigation at the time it was found.
Q. When Bob Prince was there with you in Polk County when you were interviewing Henry Lucas, did he tell you where Henry Lucas lived during 1977?
Page 2371
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Not that I remember.
Q. Did Bob Prince tell you that Henry Lucas was married to his wife, Betty Crawford, in Port Deposit, Maryland, and that Betty Crawford would testify that Henry Lucas was with her every day of that year and never left her sight practically until they split up in July of 1977. Did Bob Prince tell you that?
A. No.
Q. Did Bob Prince tell you that after Henry Lucas left his wife he stayed in Port Deposit, Maryland, for about a month and then he moved to Wilmington, Delaware, and started working for a carpet company and that there were work records to document that Henry Lucas was in Delaware until the end of 1977. Did Bob Prince tell you that?
A. I did not know the movements of Henry Lucas at the time we interviewed him. Bob Prince or no one had told me where he was or anything.
Q. Bob Prince made no effort to tell you where they had been able to confirm that Henry Lucas actually lived during the period of time that you were investigating this murder in your county?
A. I have no recollection nor do I have any documents. No documents were given to me at the time we interviewed Lucas as to his whereabouts anywhere
Page 2372
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
in his past life.
Q. In investigating the murder of someone who was killed in your county in the summer or fall of 1977, would it be an important fact for you to know that a suspect is linked with work records and a statement by his wife to being up in Delaware and Maryland all during the period of time that it’s possible that your victim was killed?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you finally tell the task force that Henry had confessed to killing the wrong person?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know if the finally changed their records? A. I don’t know. I think after you contacted me about coming here to testify, I checked with them again to see if I was still down as cleared and told them to make sure that they didn’t have it as cleared, because as far as I was concerned, it was not cleared.
MR. PONTON: We pass the witness, Your Honor.
MR. MOODY: All right.
BY MR. MOODY:
Q. Sheriff, let me go ahead and show you those
Page 2373
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Records from the task force. They showed you the first page of that synopsis, and the second page of the synopsis is a supplement that was added to it adding on your information.
“It has been determined the victim found, through medical records and dental charts, was not Stephanie Lee Smith.” Right? So the rangers did update that, apparently?
Yes.
Q. They did. In fact, in this they show - - they do not - -on the supplement they do not show it cleared, do they? It doesn’t say this case is still considered cleared?
A. That’s correct. It doesn’t say anything about the case being cleared there.
Q. In fact - - And here is their final log and all it says for the 25th day of November, 1977, “Skeletal remains of an unidentified female found in Polk County, Texas. Lucas led officers to the scene.” But it does not say that he is confirmed. Is that correct? It’s not cleared?
A. That’s correct. It doesn’t say anything about it being confirmed.
Q. That’s all it says?
A. Right.
Page 2374
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. These logs are not deceptive, are they?
A. No.
Q. They are saying the exact truth. Now, in that regard, Henry Lucas was still able to lead you to a - - within a close area of the crime scene itself?
A. That’s correct.
Q. And that was the - - that was the most impressive thing to you?
A. That’s correct.
Q. All right. Were there any photos that you showed him in the case or any photos that he had seen that could have - - If he had looked at a crime scene photo in some of your crime scene photos of the body and where it was in the stump hole, that could have been anywhere in your county, couldn’t it?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. By looking at that, there is no way you could have told where in your county or in maybe many, many other parts of Texas that that could have been from?
A. That’s correct.
Q. So even if he had looked at your crime scene photos, there is no way he could have, by looking at those crime scene photos, got you to that location, is there?
Page 2375
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
No.
Q. The problem that you-all had was he was describing a person that he killed as someone different than actually the person that was killed?
A. That’s correct.
Q. And is it your opinion that Henry Lucas absolutely did not kill the person that is still unidentified that was found in that stump hole?
A. Is that my opinion?
Q. Yes.
A. It is my opinion that he did not.
Q. That he did not kill that lady?
A. That’s my opinion.
Q. Now, you took him out to that area. How did - - Or you took him or you were driving him. Is that correct?
A. That’s correct.
Q. How did - - Did you lead him to the scene or in any way - -
A. No.
Q. You weren’t - - Was that trip videotaped or audiotaped?
A. No.
Q. And to your knowledge, he had not been in your county before?
Page 2376
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
That’s correct.
Q. So did you have an explanation of how he got so close to the scene?
A. Highway 59 north across Piney Creek, take the first dirt road to the left.
Q. Somebody had told him that, do you think?
A. There is only two ways he could have known, someone told him or he was there.
Q. So in other words, he could have actually killed this person and actually done the offense but simply confused it with another victim?
A. That’s correct.
Q. This was a type of case that didn’t lead yourself to very much physical evidence, wasn’t it?
A. That’s correct.
Q. It really didn’t have any physical evidence to work on?
A. None. In fact, sir, the way he led us, I didn’t even know you could get to the body where the body had been buried. In other words, when - - the only time that I ever visited where the body had been found was sometime right after it had been found, I was - - went up with another officer, and we went up 59. And it’s a little logging road is what it is, and it comes right into 59.
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
And when we turned off 59, go not much further than from here to the back of the courtroom into the woods, and there is a big like mud hole, bog there. You can’t cross it. And the body was found in a stump hole just off to the right of that, and that’s the only way that I had ever been there. I didn’t know you could get to it this other way that he took us.
Q. Apparently he knew you could. He knew something about your county and how to get there that you didn’t know?
A. That’s correct.
Q. That was kind of remarkable?
A. That’s correct.
Q. So, I mean, there is still in your mind a very real possibility that he could have committed the offense and killed this lady, but it just wasn’t - - obviously it wasn’t Stephanie Lee Smith?
A. That’s correct.
Q. This was not a case that you had any leads on anyone else, was there?
A. No.
Q. And it was not a case of what you would call maybe high visibility in Polk County, as far as the degree, I’m talking about. I mean, you know, it’s a
Page 2378
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Murder case which might make it to some degree noteworthy, but it wasn’t anybody in your town that was very well-to-do, that there was - - obviously it was an unidentified female?
That’s correct.
Q. There wasn’t a lot of family present pressing for you to solve the case or anything like that?
A. There is not any. We don’t know who she is. But, see, we get bodies often, you know. Being close to Houston, Texas, we are a good burial ground. We also have a nice lake to dump bodies in, so they do it often to us that way.
Q. All right.
A. It’s not unusual to find one.
Q. And, you know, you’re aware that, you know, that Henry Lucas had killed his mother, Henry Lucas had killed - -
A. I have heard that.
Q. Yes. And that additionally virtually everyone believe that he killed Frieda Powell, his girlfriend - - his common-law wife and a lady named Kate Rich, an 82-year-old crippled lady up in Ringgold, Texas. Were you aware of those cases? A. I think I was aware of the first one, not
Page 2379
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
the second one, I think. You said an 82-year-old lady?
Q. Yeah.
A. No, I don’t know anything about that.
Q. Certainly you think he has the potential to have committed your crime with that background? A. You’re asking my opinion?
Q. Yes.
A. Yes.
Q. Now, you have had crimes, whether they are homicides or not, were a wife will alibi her husband, haven’t you?
A. Oh, yeah. Yes.
Q. I mean, that’s not anything particularly - -
A. Unusual? No.
Q. Alibis themselves are not particularly unusual in criminal cases, are they?
A. No, they are not.
Q. A lot of times you got to go up against alibis from either witnesses or sometimes even records as to where people have been. Isn’t that true?
A. That’s correct.
Q. And just because Henry Lucas’ wife had said that while he was with her every day of that year and
Page 2380
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Never left her little side for even a day, if it was a case in your county, I mean, would that be - - would that be - - that’s it, you just close the books and say, well, if the wife says he is there, that’s it, we quit, that’s an airtight alibi?
Alibis - - To me alibis are like confessions. They hold no weight at all unless they can be backed up with solid evidence.
Q. That’s right.
A. If they can be documented.
Q. Yeah, documented to the exact time frame?
A. That’s correct.
Q. In other words, there is - - people can travel distances in times - -
A. Very quickly.
Q. And particularly in a very mobile society as America? A. That’s right.
Q. It doesn’t take too many days to get to places like from Delaware to Texas?
A. That’s correct.
Q. If you wanted to. And, of course, in this case there is really no way you can pin down the exact date of the death of this lady?
A. No date or time.
Page 2381
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. Just a very - - Your basic opinion may be sometime around a couple months before, but it could have been more, it could have been less. It depends on - - You’re not an expert in that area?
A. No.
Q. You would feel more comfortable to let the coroner who would have done the autopsy who would be more qualified to tell is an approximate time of death?
A. That’s correct.
MR. MOODY: No further questions.
BY MR. PONTON:
Q. Sheriff, how did - - what was it that made your department believe that this unidentified female was Stephanie Lee Smith?
A. The first thing that made us think that it possibly was her was our dental records. The dental records almost go up to, I think - -it’s hard to remember now, but I think it was about two teeth that matched perfectly and there was dental work, I think, on two other teeth that Stephanie Lee Smith had not had, supposedly.
Our contention at the time was that possibly
Page 2382
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
She had went to a dentist while she was in New Orleans, had something else done that maybe her parents didn’t know about or her dentist in Florida didn’t know about. In other words, just being off that little bit was not enough to discount her.
Q. And then - - This case was being investigated intensively by whom at that time? Was it that deputy?
A. Yes.
Q. What was his name?
A. Kenneth Acker.
Q. And Kenneth Acker stayed in close contact with the family of Stephanie Lee Smith, didn’t he?
A. As far as I know. Now, they were on a first-name basis, I think, when they would talk on the phone and all. I had - - Excuse me.
There had been a number of other potential victims that they had checked out, but I think the one that he felt that it was most likely to be was Stephanie Lee Smith.
Q. Now, Deputy Acker had been assigned to a certain area of Polk County prior to Henry Lucas coming there to look at that crime scene, hadn’t he?
A. That’s correct. He was a precinct deputy in Corrigan, Texas.
Q. The victim’s body was found right north of
Page 2383
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Corrigan, wasn’t it?
Approximately five miles north of Corrigan.
Q. And was Deputy Acker intimately familiar with that area where the body was found?
A. Yes, he lived and worked there.
Q. Deputy Acker had interviewed Henry Lucas prior to henry Lucas coming to look at the crime scene where he thought Stephanie Lee Smith was, hadn’t he?
A. Prior to any interviews by us, yes.
Q. Had he shown him a photograph of Stephanie Lee Smith?
A. You will have to ask Mr. Lucas. I don’t know.
Q. Do you have any opinion as to whether or not Henry Lucas was shown any crime scene details prior to him arriving to go out to Stephanie Lee Smith’s site? A. Do I have any information to that effect?
Q. Do you have any opinion as to whether or not Henry Lucas may have been shown some crime scene details or any details at all of this offense?
A. You want an opinion?
Q. Yes.
A. My opinion is he saw that picture.
Page 2384
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
MR. PONTON: That’s all we have, Your Honor.
MR. MOODY: Nothing further.
THE COURT: May this gentleman be excused?
MR. PONTON: He may, Your Honor, subject to recall at the trial.
Thank you.
Thank you.
THE COURT: Who will be your next witness?
MR. PONTON: Bob Lemons, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Mr. Lemons, please have a seat in the witness chair.
THE COURT: Would you please raise your right hand?
Fine.
BOB W. LEMONS,
Having been first duly sworn by the Court to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, was examined and testified as follows:
BY MR. PONTON:
Q. What is your full name, sir?
A. My name is Bob W. Lemons.
Q. Where do you live now, sir?
Page 2385
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
I live in Ringgold, Texas.
Q. Do you have a profession?
A. I was a sheet metal man. I owned a sheet metal shop. I am retired now.
Q. And where was your sheet metal shop?
A. The last one that I had was in Gainesville.
Q. And prior to that, where were you working?
A. Lubbock.
Q. Are you married?
A. I am married.
Q. Do you have any children?
A. Yes, I have six.
Q. Does your wife have any children by a prior marriage?
A. Well, when I say six, we are both in a second marriage, and together we have six, yes.
Q. Now, please tell the Court when you were living in Lubbock, Texas, the time frame.
A. When I lived there? Q. Yes, the time frame, when you moved there, when you left there.
A. I lived in Lubbock from 1968 until 1975.
Q. All right. Now, did you and your wife suffer a tragic event in 1975?
A. Yes, we did.
Page 2386
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. What was that? A. We lost our daughter, Deborah Sue, August the 24th, of ’75.
Q. Please tell the Court just briefly about the crime, what happened, things of that nature. Just very briefly. I don’t want to go into any of the details.
A. Well, it was a very brutal crime that obviously happened at about 9:00 in the evening on August 24th of ’75. She was stabbed 19 times, left dead on the step of her home.
Q. She was a newlywed, wasn’t she?
A. Yes, eight weeks.
Q. How old was she at the time?
A. 18.
Q. What happened next with the investigation into the death of your daughter, Deborah Sue Williamson? What - -
A. Are you talking about in the beginning?
Q. In the beginning, yes.
A. Well, I think Lubbock PD probably investigated as well as they had ability to do so. Looking back on it and having had an opportunity to see some of the things that were done and not done, I can see that that wasn’t real good.
Page 2387
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
About a month after Deborah had been killed, because our other two daughters’ lives had been continuously threatened and someone was trying to kill them, Lubbock PD told us they couldn’t protect us anymore and we were going to have to do something different. The same day the school called and said our children could not attend school there anymore.
So we - - that day, we left. We closed the business, left our home and left Lubbock.
Q. Did you move to Gainesville?
A. Yes.
Q. And for the next eight years, did the crime of the brutal murder of your daughter remain unsolved?
A. It did.
Q. Now, Mr. Lemons, did there come a time when you were informed that your daughter’s murder had been solved? A. The afternoon, May 17th, 1984, we got a call from Lubbock Detective George White saying that Henry Lucas had confessed to the murder.
Q. What was the date again?
A. May 17th, 1984.
Q. All right. And what did the Detective White tell you about Henry Lucas’ involvement in the death of your daughter, Deborah Sue Williamson?
Page 2385
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
All he told me on the phone was that Henry Lucas and Ottis Toole had killed her, on the telephone. That’s all I got. We did go out there. That was on a Friday, I believe, and we went out on Monday. We got more information then, a lot more.
Q. When you went to Lubbock on Monday?
A. Yes.
Q. What was you and your wife’s reaction at being told that the murder of your daughter had finally been solved? A. Total relief.
Q. You had been - - It had been a very dark part of your life all those years, hadn’t it? A. We lived like we had fallen off the planet Mars, because we didn’t dare tell anybody where we were or what we were doing. It was very difficult.
Q. You and your wife went to Lubbock that next Monday. Please tell the Court what transpired when you got to Lubbock.
A. We got to Lubbock Monday morning and went to Ranger Jackie Peeples’ office where we met with him and Detective George White.
Q. When you say, “ranger,” do you mean Texas Ranger?
A. Texas Rangers, Jackie Peeples, yes. They
Page 2389
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Allowed us to read the confession that Henry had given. And after reading it, we both realized that Henry Lucas knew absolutely nothing about what had transpired in Deborah’s case, and we questioned Ranger Peeples and Detective White as to why they would even consider this because, you know, he just didn’t know anything about it.
And they tried real hard to sell us on the idea that, yes, he indeed did. He had to know. He had - - knew things that only the murderer could know. And finally, in the attempt to sell us, they asked u if there was any way that they could convince us, and we gave them just a couple of simple questions which had to do with the murder scene, and aid yes, if he could answer these, you know, then yeah, we will buy it.
And they were supposed to get back to us in about a week or ten days. And the next thing that we heard, three weeks later Henry had been indicted. We went back because - -
Q. When you say, “Henry had been indicted” - - Excuse me. I don’t want to interrupt - - I don’t mean to interrupt. But when you say, “Henry had been indicted,” you mean he had been indicted for the murder of your daughter, Deborah Sue Williamson?
Page 2390
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
That is correct.
Q. Then what happened next?
A. We went back out, went to the district attorney’s office, and the district attorney’s refused to talk to us. We finally did get to see an assistant district attorney by the name of David Hess. He was a first assistant. And David’s response to it is that, “I have tried to tell them that you-all weren’t going to buy this. It had to be something more to it than this for you to understand.”
Q. Who does David Hess work for now?
A. David Hess works for the attorney general now.
Q. For the state of Texas?
A. That’s correct.
Q. And what happened next there when you were going over that with Assistant District Attorney David Hess?
A. I’m sorry. I didn’t understand.
Q. What happened next in the case when you were, as you were saying, you were going over it with David Hess?
A. Well we were finally given - - This did happen later on, though. It wasn’t at that particular meeting. But we were given Deborah’s - -
Page 2391
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
the tape recording that was made when Henry was out there by the - - In fact, the district attorney did give us that.
Q. Who was the district attorney?
A. Jim Bob Darnell.
Q. Had you not been to him several times expressing your opinion that they indicted the wrong man for killing your daughter?
A. We tried to talk to him, but as far as we ever got was to David Hess up until the day I’m talking about, which was very probably was like around the middle of July in ’84 or in - - yeah, in ’84.
Q. How long after Henry’s indictment was this time that you’re referring to when you finally got to see the district attorney in Lubbock County?
A. We are talking probably six weeks.
Q. And before the Lubbock County Grand Jury indicted Henry Lucas for killing Deborah Sue Williamson, had you told the district attorney’s office in Lubbock that you did not believe that Henry Lucas had killed your daughter?
A. I didn’t talk to the district attorney’s office before the indictment. We certainly expressed that opinion to Ranger Jackie Peeples and to
Page 2392
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Detective George White.
Q. After the indictment, did you express that opinion to the district attorney, Jim Bob Darnell?
A. Yes, we did, at the meeting in July.
Q. And what was his response?
A. His response was that we weren’t ever going to believe that Henry did it because we had our mind made up who did, which is absolutely false, because we had never expressed an opinion about who could have done it.
After we heard the tape that was made in the car and realized that Henry had not given them one direction in taking them, directing them to Deborah’s home and, in fact, the type of house he said he was looking for, everything was totally wrong, and we went back in to Jim Bob Darnell’s office and he says, “Well, now you must be convinced.”
And I says, “Mr. Darnell, have you ever listened to the tape?
And he said, “No.”
I said, “Well, you really ought to do that, because I think if you did you would understand also that Henry knows nothing about this.”
And he got very angry, and as a matter of fact, asked me to leave.
Page 2393
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. Henry remained indicted for the death of your daughter until early this year, didn’t he?
A. I am not exactly sure what the date was, but it was, yes, it was this year that we finally got the district attorney out there to drop not only Deborah’s but the other cases that Henry took there.
Q. Henry took two or three other cases in Lubbock County, didn’t he?
A. He took three cases in Lubbock County.
Q. Your daughter’s and two others?
A. Right.
Q. He was indicted on all three of those, wasn’t he?
A. Correct.
Q. And he took all those cases about the - - He took the other two cases about the time he was taking Deborah Sue’s case, didn’t he?
A. It was all on the same visit.
Q. The indictment for all three of those cases came out of the same grand jury, didn’t it?
A. Correct.
Q. In the spring of 1986, the Lubbock County District Attorney’s office dismissed all three of those indictments, didn’t they?
A. Actually, I’m trying to remember back, and
Page 2394
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
I’m thinking that it was the spring of ’85 that it was all dismissed.
Q. Maybe so. I may be - -
A. I believe that’s correct.
Q. Okay. I don’t mean to mislead you. There is so many details in this case it’s hard to keep up with them.
A. I understand.
Q. But you do know, do you not, that the indictments against Henry Lucas for the murder of your daughter and of the other two murders he confessed to in Lubbock County have been dismissed by the district attorney of Lubbock County?
A. I know that for a fact, yes.
Q. And this was after you had finally been able to convince the district attorney that Henry Lucas couldn’t have committed these crimes?
A. I don’t know that I ever convinced the district attorney of anything, to be perfectly truthful with you. I think the way it came about, Gary Richardson, who was acting as Henry’s attorney at the time, went to Lubbock and demanded a speedy trial, to either try him or dismiss it, you know. And the district attorney just dismissed all of them.
Q. Now, after Henry was indicted for killing
Page 2395
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Deborah Sue, did you try to talk some more with the Texas Rangers regarding your opinion on whether or not Henry Lucas could have killed your daughter?
Yes. In September, in fact - -
Q. September of what year?
A. I have the dates. September 5, I believe, is correct. I know it was the first week of September.
Q. Is that 19- --
A. In 1984. Joyce and I went to Georgetown believing that if nobody else is going to listen to us - - You have got to remember by this time we already had information and evidence to prove Henry did not kill Deborah as well as a lot of other folks.
Q. Let me - - Let me - - When you refer to Joyce, are you referring to your wife?
A. My wife.
Q. When you’re referring to this evidence, let’s - - for the benefit of the Court, the date of your daughter’s death was August 25th, 19- - -
A. It was actually the evening of the 24th. She was found after midnight.
Q. Now, before you and your wife went to talk to Bob Prince and the Texas Rangers in Georgetown, did you get some information? Did you uncover some
Page 2396
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
information where Henry Lucas was in August of 1975?
Yes
Q. Where was that? Where was he?
A. Well, Henry was released from Jackson prison in Michigan, state prison in Michigan on August 22nd of 1975, and he left there at about 8:30 in the morning. This was verified by Deputy Warden Frank Blow, which we have documents on.
We also know that Henry went directly to Maryland, to Perryville, Maryland. He was met there about 2:30 in the afternoon on the 23rd day of August by his sister, Almeda Kiser, and niece, Aomia Pierce. He stayed that evening with Wade and Almeda, his half-sister and brother-in-law.
The next day he went over to a little town about 30 miles away in Pennsylvania and stayed with his niece and her husband until he was married in December.
We found work records at Kaolin Mushroom Company in Pennsylvania. We found where he had worked at a farm. We had documents on all this, where he had bought cars, where he, you know, a lot about - - much too much to try to remember.
Q. Now, had you gathered these documents up during the summer of 1984?
Page 2397
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Yes, we did.
Q. And did you take those documents on where Henry Lucas actually lived and where he actually was in 1975 to the Texas Rangers in Georgetown, Texas, in September of 1984?
A. I took them there and tried to - -
Q. What did the Texas Rangers do with these documents that you brought to them?
A. They wouldn’t accept the documents and they also - - well, Bob Prince specifically told me that I would either get up and leave his office or he would bodily throw me out. He didn’t want to hear what I had to say, same as everybody else.
Q. Did you tell them that you thought Henry had gotten out of prison in Michigan two days before your daughter’s death?
A. I told him that I knew he got out because I had the document in my hand, a letter from Deputy Warden Frank Elow.
Q. Did Bob Prince - -
A. And Bob - -
Q. Did Bob Prince tell you anything about whether or not he thought that any documents still existed on that?
A. His response to that was that there was no
Page 2398
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Way to know when Henry got out of prison because the records had burned, was the first thing. A little bit later he told me that after five years they destroyed the records up there.
And I kept trying to tell him, “Look, I got the record.” And he didn’t want to hear it. He just simply made it very clear that I either get up and leave or he would throw me out bodily. And knowing that I would wind up in jail, I got up and left.
Q. When was this?
A. This was the first week of September 1984.
Q. Now, did you try to talk to any more Texas Rangers about the information you had uncovered on where Henry Lucas was in actuality when he was supposedly killing all these people?
A. I tried to talk to Floyd Hacker, I tried to talk to Jim Adams, I tried to talk to Governor White and I tried to talk to Attorney General Jim Mattox. I tried again to talk to Lubbock PD, I tried talking to the Lubbock district attorney’s office. And everywhere I went everybody had the same story, they didn’t want to hear it. They were not at all interested.
We even had other people that had evidence that we had asked them to hear. They refused. The
Page 2399
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Only thing that anybody was interested in is they had themselves a mass murderer and that’s all they wanted. They weren’t interested in the truth. They just wanted a mass murderer.
Q. The Texas Rangers were getting a lot of good publicity from having the world’s biggest mass murderer in their midst, weren’t they?
A. They sure were. I would say that they were living a celebrity life, flying in a private jet all over the country, living well, eating well, something that I’m sure you couldn’t do on a Texas Ranger salary.
Q. And they were the biggest thing to hit law enforcement in a long time, weren’t they, for being able to clear 300 cases?
A. Oh, yes. Absolutely. Never in history has this ever happened.
Q. Now, from that time that Bob Prince threw you out of his office in September of 1984, September 5th, 1984, did you continue to try to present the truth about Henry Lucas to the government officials of the state of Texas?
A. Yes, we did.
Q. Who finally listened to you? Was it a government official or was it a journalist?
Page 2400
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Well, unfortunately, we met Hugh Aynesworth, who was doing literally the same thing Joyce and I were doing, and we got together and finished the investigation, which we were totally - - totally finished with by January of 1985.
And even after that, not only myself but Hugh as well, we tried to get to the governor. We tried to get to Jim Adams. Hugh finally did get to Attorney General Jim Mattox, and he listened and accepted the information.
Q. And the information you were referring to consisted of documents on Henry Lucas’ whereabouts. Is that correct?
A. Yes, it did.
MR. PONTON: May I approach the witness, Your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) I want to show you what has been marked for identification purposes as Defendant’s Exhibit 26 and - -
A. Remember that I cannot see well.
Q. I know. And I don’t want you to look at every one of these, but I want to look at some of these and tell me if you can identify some of these as documents that you personally helped to find with
Page 2401
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
your money in the fall and winter of 1984.
Here is a - - Defendant’s Exhibit 26-F, Bluefield hospital records; 26-G, welfare records from Virginia.
Yes, sir.
Q. Here is a record, 26-J, receipts and other documents received from Darrell and Aomi Pierce.
A. Yes, I got those.
Q. 24-K, Kiser scrap metal records.
A. I got those.
Q. 24-L, Hoopes Dairy Farm records?
A. Hugh and I both got some of this together. The ones you mentioned previously, Joyce and I got.
Q. And later at a break I’ll ask you to go through those in more detail.
But based on what I just read to you - - And I understand that your eyesight is very poor, but based on what I read to you, does that sound like some of the documents that you personally tracked down at your own expense in the winter of ’84? A. That is the document that we traced down, yes.
Q. And those documents prove when Henry Lucas actually lived and worked during much of the period of his freedom from prison, don’t they?
Page 2402
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
That’s true.
Q. And are these the documents that were finally submitted to Attorney General Jim Mattox of the state of Texas? A. Yes, it is. I spent - - Joyce and I spent about ten days in a motel in Austin relaying the information that he had to Mike Feary, the investigator for the attorney general.
Q. And did Mike Feary, the investigator for the attorney general, follow up on the documents and information you-all provided?
A. Yes, he did. As a matter of fact, Jim Mattox asked me to come aboard as a Lucas consultant and go with Mike to save the state some money so he didn’t have to go look all these people up because I already knew them and knew where they were. I did absolutely nothing except take him where he needed to go, and I did interview Almeda Kiser because that’s the way she wanted it. But - -
Q. Who is she? A. Almeda Kiser, Henry’s half-sister that lives in Port Deposit.
Q. And she was a witness to Henry Lucas living up there for a couple years, wasn’t she?
A. Yes.
Page 2403
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. Now, finally in April of 1985, did there come a time when the grand jury investigation was begun into whether Henry Lucas was either the world’ greatest mass killer of the world’s greatest mass confessor?
A. Yeah. In Waco, you’re talking about?
Q. Yes.
A. Yes.
Q. Yes.
Q. And that grand jury looked at some of these documents that you and Mike Feary and Hugh Aynesworth had uncovered?
A. We made all the document available, tape recordings, videos, what-have-you.
Q. And do you know if that grand jury reached any conclusions?
A. They did not.
Q. Do you know if that grand jury accepted the fact that these documents reflected where Henry Lucas lived during much of his freedom?
A. I think they accepted that, okay. The way I understand it is that they had no authority. They understood what had happened, but they had no authority to do anything about it. I don’t - - That’s all I know about it.
Q. And what had happened was that all during
Page 2404
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
the time that Henry Lucas was in the care and custody and control of the Texas Rangers, there existed these documents in Defendant’s Exhibit 26 to prove where Henry Lucas actually lived. Isn’t that what happened?
That is what happened.
Q. How much trouble did you as - - you as a private citizen have going out and finding those records, the documentary proof on where Henry Lucas lived?
A. I had a lot of trouble. It took me a lot of time. The way we had to come by documents sometimes certainly is not behooving to our character.
Q. But you could get them. Right?
A. We got them, yes, we did. And then we met Fran Dixon, a Maryland state trooper, who certainly was a great help to us.
Q. And do you have any - - would it surprise you, Mr. Lemons, that in Defendant’s Exhibit 26-A, which has been tendered but not yet admitted into evidence, there exists 186 cases cleared while Henry Lucas was a member of the Texas Ranger task force that are contradicted by those records in front of you?
A. I know that for a fact.
Q. You have looked at a lot of facts of the cases Henry Lucas confessed to versus the facts as to
Page 2405
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
where Henry Lucas was actually living at the time, haven’t you?
Yes, I have.
Q. How many cases do you think Henry Lucas falsely confessed to which have been confirmed as cleared by the Texas Rangers task force?
A. I’m not sure about the number on it because the number changed so often. I saw as many as - - And I’m taking it just by the Texas Rangers. I’m not absolutely sure. I have seen as many as 360 names on the list and I have seen as little as a couple of hundred, and this changed quite often.
I also noticed on that official chronology that the date he was released from prison kept changing, also, to suit the needs of the Texas Rangers.
Q. And this was - - And was that changing date, his release date from prison occurring after you had told Bobby Prince that you had a document showing exactly when Henry Lucas was released from prison?
A. Yes. That document was totally refused by all law enforcement in this state.
Q. And after you offered Texas Ranger Bobby Prince, the sergeant in charge of the Texas Ranger task force, the document proving when henry Lucas
Page 2406
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Left the prison in Michigan, he kept changing that date on the DPS time log?
He did that.
Q. So they could clear more cases with Henry?
A. He did that.
THE COURT: Mr. Ponton, let’s take a break for a few minutes, if you don’t mind.
MR. PONTON: Thank you, Your Honor.
(A brief recess was taken.)
MR. PONTON: Just a couple more questions, Your Honor.
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) Mr. Lemons, you first were involved with the Texas Rangers in the investigation of the death of Deborah Sue Williamson when Jackie Peeples was telling you that Henry Lucas had killed your daughter. Is that correct?
A. That’s correct.
Q. And Jackie Peeples, the Texas Ranger from Lubbock, told you that Henry Lucas had killed your daughter in 1984. Is that correct?
A. That’s correct.
Q. And you went - - Let me ask you this. When he told you that Henry Lucas had killed you daughter, did he tell you that at the time that Henry Lucas - - Let me back up.
Page 2407
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
He told you that Henry Lucas said that Henry and Ottis had killed Deborah Sue in August of 1975. Is that correct?
That’s correct.
Q. Did he tell you - - And what time was this in 1984 when he told you that?
A. It was - - Let’s see. Let’s see. May 19th or 20th.
Q. And on May 20th, 1984, did Jackie Peeples tell you that the Texas Rangers had information that they knew that Henry Lucas never even met Ottis Toole until February 15th, 1979?
A. At that time they did they tell me that?
Q. Yes.
A. No.
Q. Now, did you later find out yourself independently when Henry Lucas met Ottis Toole?
A. Yes, I found out. I’m not exactly sure what the dates was. I could look it up on my records, but it would have been in 1984, sometime prior to October that I found that out, yes.
Q. And sometime around September of 1984 when you found out that Henry Lucas didn’t even meet Ottis Toole until four years after the death of your daughter, did you tell that information to the Texas
Page 2408
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Rangers?
I tried to.
Q. Would they listen to you?
A. No.
Q. Are you aware that after September of 1984 when you tried to tell them about Henry and Ottis Toole not even meeting until 1979, that Henry Lucas while in their custody continued to repeatedly confess to committing crimes with Ottis Toole prior to 1979?
A. I’m aware of that.
Q. And they were accepting confessions from Henry Lucas that Henry was committing crimes with Ottis in the period from 1975 and 1979, were they not, the Texas Rangers?
A. That’s true.
Q. And they were doing this at a time after you had tried to tell them that Henry didn’t even meet Ottis until February of 1979. Is that correct?
A. That’s true.
Q. And your information that you were able to independently develop showed that any time Henry Lucas confessed to a crime that he committed with Ottis Toole prior to February of 1979, that that automatically makes that confession invalid, doesn’t it?
Page 2409
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Absolutely. Not only that but I can prove where Henry Lucas was up to February of 1979. That’s an area we covered very carefully.
Q. And that was when he was up in Maryland and Pennsylvania and Delaware. Is that correct?
A. And West Virginia.
Q. And West Virginia. And those records are contained in those documents in front of you?
A. That’s correct.
Q. Now, you say you tried to go to Mark White with the information that Henry Lucas, while in the custody of the Texas Rangers, was falsely confessing to crimes?
A. I tried that.
Q. When was that?
A. I began trying to see Mark White in October or 1984. I finally did get an audience with him, and I’m kind of - - not in a very orthodox manner, but I did get it in January of this year?
Q. When was that? When was that that you first tried to talk to him about this?
A. It was probably around the first part of October of ’84 that I first began. Again, I have records to indicate that that I don’t have in front of me here, but I know it was about that time.
Page 2410
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. Would he listen to you?
A. I could never get an appointment. I finally saw Mark White because I went down and with help of some of the news media, Mark White realized that I was going to be in a press conference asking questions, and agreed, rather than have me do that, he would see me privately. And the man done absolutely nothing but tell me lies after I did see him.
Q. When was that that you saw Mark White?
A. This January of this year.
Q. Did he tell you he knew anything about Lucas?
A. He didn’t want to talk about Lucas, and, in fact, wouldn’t talk about Lucas. He did set me up a meeting with the DPS commission to talk about that.
What he did promise me, that they would do a very thorough investigation into Deborah’s death, and for an hour and five minute we discussed it. And nothing was ever done. The meeting never developed with the DPS commission.
I did meet with Mr. Feigner, with the commission. I was supposed to meet with the commission in about two or three days to relay the information I had to them, and instead of allowing me to come and pass this information along, they held a
Page 2411
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
meeting behind closed doors and notified me that it had been done and found no wrongdoing.
Q. This was in January of ’86?
A. Yes.
Q. I want to show you what I’ll mark for purposes of this examination as Defendant’s Exhibit 29.
(Defendant’s exhibit marked, D-29.)
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) This is a copy of a letter from Jerry Allen Potter dated April 23rd, 1985, and it’s addressed to Texas Ranger Sergeant Bob Prince and Sheriff Boutwell.
And I’m going to read to you - - I know your eyesight is very bad and you have to use that magnifying glass, so I’m going to read to you from paragraph four of this letter dated April 23rd, 1985.
And for purposes of the record, I’ll identify the writer of the letter, Jerry Allen Potter, as a public relations man who apparently was hired by the Department of public Safety to do, quote, damage control, unquote, after the Hugh Aynesworth stories first appeared in April of 1985 criticizing the Texas Ranger task force. And Mr. Potter was identified - - was hired by the DPS to try to make some good press to counteract Hugh Aynesworth’s bad press.
Page 2412
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
And this letter was - - came into my possession because a private citizen filed a Freedom of Information Act request with the governor’s office. So I’m going to read to you from paragraph four of this letter from Jerry Potter April 23rd, 1985. This is after he talks about how he couldn’t get some newspapers to respond to him trying to file some pro-Texas Rangers articles.
“Finally, though, I went to the governor’s office and left a copy of the paper I gave to Sheriff Boutwell and left with Jill for Bob. Soon I got a call back from a secretary to Gilbert Pena in the governor’s office of criminal justice. Soon after that, I got a call from Mark McKenna of the governor’s press secretary’s office, and he wanted a meeting. I showed the paper to him and he said he would do what he could do. And today I got a call from an assistant U.S. attorney who knew I had been talking to you and Jim and Henry and Clemmie.”
And he is referring to Jerry Potter, that the U.S. attorney knew that Jerry Potter was talking to Bob Prince, Jim Boutwell, Henry Lucas and Clemmie Schroeder.
Jerry Potter goes on to say, “I told her,” the U.S. attorney, “what I knew and that I suspected
Page 2413
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Aynesworth was the one perpetrating a hoax and he, Aynesworth, using Mattox and Feazell, got Henry locked where he couldn’t deny Aynesworth’s charges. I suggested that Aynesworth knew Henry well enough to know that he would day whatever his captors needed him to say and it wouldn’t matter as far as his news story was concerned that Aynesworth hadn’t talked to Henry in months. This federal attorney said that my assessment was corroborated by other information they were picking up.”
He goes on to talk about trying to talk to a Texas Supreme Court justice to look into the Aynesworth-Feazell irregularities. He goes then to talk about trying to get 60 Minutes to do a pro-ranger story, and then he goes on to talk about how us discussing with editor Jim Black of Taylor Publishing Company in Dallas to publish a pro-ranger book.
Now, the reason I read that to you, Mr. Lemons, does that letter dated April 23rd, 1985, indicate to you that Governor Mark White had knowledge that the Texas Rangers were using Henry to falsely confess to cases?
MR. MOODY: Your Honor, I would object to that. That calls for hearsay, speculation, rumor.
Page 2414
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
It’s not even relevant to this hearing, anyway.
THE COURT: Well, I’m going to let him answer the question.
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) Do you remember the question?
A. Yeah. I think it - - Yes, you’re right. But I can also tell you, yes, Mark White did have knowledge of it, long before that, even.
Q. How do you know that, Mr. Lemons?
A. Only because of conversations that I heard - - I overheard in Gilbert Pena’s office, the gentleman you just mentioned there, whom we talked to several times during this.
Q. Now, for purposes of the record here, Gilbert Pena is in charge of Governor Mark White’s criminal justice division. Is that correct?
A. That’s true. See, we talked with Gilbert back months before this letter was actually even written and relayed the information to Gilbert, but Gilbert could not get us an appointment with the governor. But I’m very sure that information was made available. At least, that is what he told me.
Q. Gilbert Pena told you that he passed on that information to Governor Mark White?
A. That’s what he said.
Page 2415
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. When was this?
A. I would have to think about this a minute in order to - - And I’m not even sure that I can do it without some notes. But the first - - the first time that I saw Gilbert Pena was probably March or April of ’85. It was before - -
Q. That letter?
A. It was before the story came out.
Q. Before Hugh Aynesworth’s stories came out?
A. Yes.
Q. Before Henry Lucas went to the McLennan County Grand Jury?
A. Yes.
Q. And before that, Mark White was provided information through Gilbert Pena by you that Henry Lucas was falsely confessing to cases. Is that correct?
A. That is correct. What I was trying to do at the time was to get Mr. Pena to get an appointment with the governor so that we could lay this out and save him - - and at that time I was thinking Jim Adams, as well, embarrassment by having it come out in the paper. But I never could get it done.
Q. Would it surprise you that Governor Mark White last Friday personally told me that he had no
Page 2416
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
personal knowledge of anything in the Lucas case?
I would - - That would not surprise me at all. Because the man lied to me, why not to you?
Q. Do you think that Mark White was telling the truth when he personally told me in Bill Moody’s presence that - -
MR. MOODY: Your Honor, I object to that. It’s rank hearsay. What does he know about any conversations?
MR. PONTON: He knows what he told the governor’s office. That’s why I’m asking him.
THE COURT: Well, let me suggest this to you, Mr. Ponton. Because this gentleman told Mr. Gilbert Pena something does not necessarily mean that Mr. Gilbert Pena relayed that message or what he was told to the governor - - or to Governor Mark White.
Now, you’re assuming that to be true, and I’m going to tell you that I’m not going to assume that to be true. That is an assumption on your part. Now, when you start making those types of accusations, than I would hope that you can prove that.
Now, I don’t think that this gentleman can come up here with an opinion as to what happened between you and Mark White unless you can tie it down to something that he has knowledge of.
Page 2417
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
MR. PONTON: I think I can here, Your Honor.
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) Mr. Lemons, you have just testified that in approximately March - - February or March of 1985 you went to Gilbert Pena in Governor Mark white’s office and provided documentation to him that Henry Lucas could not have committed all these murders that he confessed to. Is that correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. And in that conversation, did Gilbert Pena tell you that he would give those documents or share those documents with Mark White?
MR. MOODY: I’m going to object to anything Gilbert Pena said. That’s hearsay.
THE COURT: Well, I’m going to overrule that. You can answer that question. You can tell us what he told you.
What Gilbert Pena told me was that he would make arrangements for me to meet with Mark White and that he would brief him on what the meeting was about. That’s really - - That’s what he said.
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) Did you ever find out whether Mark White had been briefed by Gilbert Pena?
A. The only thing I can tell you is that in several meetings with Gilbert after he told me
Page 2418
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
That he made every effort to make this appointment but had not been able to.
Q. Do you - -
A. And by what he said, I assumed at the time that he meant that he, yes, had either shared them or tried to share them. I don’t know, you know. I mean, that’s all I know about it.
Q. Would Mark White ever meet with you?
A. No, he wouldn’t. The only way I ever got a meeting with Mark White in January of this year. We were going to crash a press conference on Thursday, that he holds every Thursday in the capitol building because I had some questions for him that I was determined to ask.
And his security got wind of what was going on and they escorted us away. And we made it very clear to them that we were going to talk to him and he could either do it in public or in his office, whichever he wanted, and he chose that afternoon to see us in his office.
Q. Are you telling this Court that Governor Mark White’s security personnel escorted you away from a public press conference?
A. Joyce and I were escorted away by his security, yes.
Page 2419
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. And ha she done anything since that meeting?
A. No. His office will not - - will not - - I’m not even - - I’m not just saying Mark White. His office will not talk to us anymore.
Mark White has done absolutely nothing. That is evident because certainly the letter that I received from DPS commission several months ago telling me that in the beginning the Lubbock PD had done a very thorough investigation into Deborah’s murder and when Henry got involved the Texas Rangers did a very thorough investigation into her murder, and they saw no purpose for going any further with it.
Q. And in your meeting with Governor White this year, did you tell him any of the facts behind why you thought Henry Lucas was falsely confessing to crimes while in custody of the Texas Rangers?
A. I did as much as I could in an hour and five minutes.
Q. In an hour and five minutes you told him part of your knowledge of the Henry Lee Lucas story?
A. Yes.
Q. And you personally told him that you had evidence that Henry Lucas could not have committed most, if not all, the crimes he confessed to?
A. I not only told him, I furnished him with
Page 2420
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Some copies of documentation.
Q. When was this?
A. This was January of this year.
Q. Now, let me ask you my question again. Would it surprise you, then, that one week ago Governor Mark White - -
MR. MOODY: Your Honor, I’m going to object to anything that - - He cannot have any knowledge, and so what if it is a surprise to him? There is - - He has no knowledge whatever of any conversation Mr. Ponton has with anybody.
THE COURT: Well, I’m going to let Mr. Ponton ask his question. I don’t know that we can object to Mr. Ponton’s question until we hear it.
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) Let me ask it to you this way, Mr. Lemons.
One week ago, in the presence of Mr. Bill Moody, who is Governor White’s campaign manager here in El Paso County, Mark White told me personally that he had no knowledge - -
MR. MOODY: Your Honor, he is testifying. That’s not a question.
MR. PONTON: I’m not going to ask him - -
MR. MOODY: I object to the form of what - -
THE COURT: Well, Mr. Moody, I’m going to
Page 2421
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Let him phrase his question the way he would like to phrase it. That’s not testimony. That’s not merely a - -
MR. MOODY: If he wants to get on the stand and testify as a witness in this case - -
THE COURT: We have not heard his question, have we?
Now, we’re not - - Let me say this to you and to Mr. Ponton. We are not afraid of the truth in this case.
MR. MOODY: Of course not.
THE COURT: So let’s ask the question. Let’s get it out. If it’s truth, we are going to find it. If it’s not truth, then we are going to find that, too. So you ask the question, Mr. Ponton.
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) The question, Mr. Lemons, is this: One week ago, Governor Mark White told me, in the presence of Mr. Moody, Governor White’s campaign manager for El Paso County, that he had no knowledge of anything in the Lucas investigation and that if I had any questions on that, I should contact the Public Safety Commission.
Now, based upon your conversation with Mark White in January of this year and based upon the documents you personally gave him in January of this
Page 2422
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
year, was Governor White being truthful with me or not?
Governor White was lying to you. I can assure you of that. I know because I did give him those documents, I did spend an hour and five minutes with him explaining it to him. But he would lie to me, why wouldn’t he lie to anybody else?
Q. Would it surprise you that I have been told that he has promised to make Bill Moody a judge if Bill Moody would get the needle for Henry Lucas?
A. Why, that would not surprise me in the slightest.
MR. MOODY: I would like to know where you got that allegation.
THE COURT: Well, I’m going to - -
MR. MOODY: You’re nothing but a liar.
THE COURT: We are going to recess at this point and I want to see both lawyers. Mr. Moody, I want to see you and Mr. Ponton and the lawyers in my office.
MR. MOODY: I want to know where you got that.
THE COURT: Mr. Moody, I want to see you in my office. There is not going to be any of that in my courtroom.
Page 2423
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
(A brief recess was taken.)
THE COURT: All right.
MR. PONTON: May I proceed, Your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes, sir.
MR. PONTON: At this time, Your Honor, I’d like to offer a formal apology to Mr. Bill Moody. The remarks that I made before we broke have no basis, have no real basis in fact in the documents we have in our possession at this time. I believe that they were made by me intemperately in the heat of this battle, and I believe that that was an improper personal attack on Mr. Moody. And at this time, I personally apologize to him for that.
I would respectfully request that any members of the press who are present, not - - if they felt it appropriate not to publish any remarks I may have made, because at this time there is no basis for it. And I think any publication of them would only do harm to a very fine man and a very fine prosecutor, a man who has been exceedingly fair and open with both Doris Sipes and myself as we have tried to render our Constitutional duty to provide a fair trial to the citizen accused in this case, Mr. Lucas.
And so I would respectfully request that such be done, if possible, because I think that we
Page 2424
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
All say things in haste and anger that we later regret, and I think all of us hope that such statements that are made in those kinds of situations can be withdrawn. At this time I would respectfully request that those statements such as I made be formally retracted, and I don’t mean to make any kind of aspersions whatsoever upon a very fine man and a very fine prosecutor and a man that, I’m sure, will be a - - if he ever goes on to any other position, will be just as fair and honest and open in whatever tasks he may have in the future as he has been with me and Ms. Sipes in this case.
THE COURT: Thank you, Mr. Ponton. Let’s go on with the examination of the witness.
MR. PONTON: I have no further questions, Your Honor.
MR. MOODY: No questions, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Thank you. May Mr. Lemons be excused?
MR. PONTON: Hey may, Your Honor, subject to recall at the trial of this cause.
THE COURT: Call your next witness. Thank you, Mr. Lemons.
THE WITNESS: You’re very welcome, sir.
MR. PONTON: Wait, Your Honor. There’s one
Page 2425
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Editor's note: this is the official transcript and it runs verbatim, as the archive's rule for court records requires; nothing has been summarised or cut. These pages complete Lucas’s testimony, which began at page 1765 and is published in two earlier parts. Bob Lemons and his wife Joyce also appear in the Clay County proceedings, and their separate grand jury testimony there was transcribed by Jodi Renée Lester. This archive records Henry Lee Lucas with eleven convictions, around three of them regarded as credible, against some six hundred confessions; the questioning in these pages is part of the mechanism by which that gap opened. It belongs to the El Paso County case and the 120th Judicial District, not to the Clay County trial already published as TRANSCRIPTS FROM THE TRIAL OF HENRY LEE LUCAS. Nothing said under oath in a transcript is a finding of fact, and Lucas in particular said a great many things that were not true.