By Christi Punteney
The El Paso County hearing into the confessions of Henry Lee Lucas continues, transcribed from the official record: the grand jury testimony of Detective Benito Perez resumes, followed by a statement of facts and the testimony of Lieutenant Jerry Smith of the Odessa Police Department and Eugene J. Ross. It runs verbatim. Pages 191 to 684.
THE COURT: Please be seated, ladies and gentlemen. Good morning.
Mr. Moody, I think you - - still think you had Mr. Perez, didn’t you?
MR. MOODY: Yes. Yes, Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right.
BY MR. MOODY:
Q. I think we reached the point where Detective Perez had completed the interview in Sierra Blanca, Texas, and had made arrangements for Henry Lucas to come to El Paso the next day and that Lucas had said that he had come to El Paso to work on just one case, this case, and that’s all. Is that where we are at?
A. Yes, that’s correct.
MR. MOODY: May I go ahead and proceed, Your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes. Yes, sir.
Q. (BY MR. MOODY) Now, Detective Perez, you made those arrangements - - with whom did you make those arrangements - - with whom did you make the arrangements for Henry Lucas to come to El Paso on that next day?
A. It was the Texas Rangers. Clayton Smith was the primary Texas Ranger who I communicated with.
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Q. Okay. What arrangement was made for Lucas’ arrival in El Paso on the next day?
A. Well, we had to contact the county jail to make arrangements there, and particularly the captain of the county jail and make sure that a separate cell was available for Mr. Lucas for obvious reasons. One, of course, is the safety factor in that that particular area we had to go to, the second floor, there was a lot of traffic there as far as personnel and there was a lot of details that had to be worked out the county jail personnel.
And then, of course, we had to make - - I would imagine the rangers made arrangements at the airport, Southwest airport, terminal airport where they come in.
Q. All right. Did you-all have a schedule as to his - - the defendant’s approximate time of arrival?
A. Approximate time around noon. They had another location to go to that morning. I believe it was just south of Lubbock, Texas. So we were kind of waiting for them to confirm the actual time and I believe the time was somewhere around 12:20 p.m. is when they actually arrived.
Q. When Henry Lucas arrived in El Paso, where did you - - where did you meet him?
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There at the Southwest Air Rangers terminal adjacent to the airport.
Q. How many vehicles did you have there at Southwest Air Rangers for the transportation of Henry Lucas and the Texas Rangers that were accompanying him?
A. There were two vehicles assigned and the lieutenant also arrived and he had his own personal - - his own city vehicle.
Q. What type of vehicles were you going to travel in on that day?
A. Well, they were Ford Fairmonts. I believe they are ‘82s. I’m not sure. And then the lieutenant had that old Dodge, ’79, something like that.
Q. These were the standard detective cars?
A. Yes, that’s correct.
Q. Unmarked?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. When Henry Lucas arrived, in what vehicle was he put and who was in the vehicle with him?
A. He was placed in our vehicle, and in our vehicle was myself and then Henry on the right front seat.
Q. Who was driving?
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I was driving.
Q. You were the driver?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Then Henry Lucas was there, again?
A. In the right front seat.
Q. Okay. Then who else was in that vehicle?
A. Detective Ed Uribe was in the right back seat and then Texas Ranger Clayton Smith was in the left back seat.
Q. What was your job on that particular assignment as the driver of that vehicle? What were you going to do?
A. Well, drive the vehicle - - Well, we had made arrangements in that Henry stated he would take us to the scene, the crime scene, that he would find it for us. And my responsibility at that time was to drive the vehicle and adhere to the directions of Henry.
When we were driving out there, some comments were made to the extent that I asked him was I driving too fast, too slow, which lane did he want me to go in? The conversation just kept to a minimum, if I recall.
Q. What was detective Ed Uribe’s job?
A. Okay. His responsibility was to take down notes as far as out direction of travel and places
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that we stopped or places that we turned as best that he could.
Q. Then, what, he had a book or something he was writing in or some note tablets or something like that?
A. Yes, sir, he had a notebook with him.
Q. Then approximately what time did you leave the Southwest Air Rangers?
A. Well, I would say about 12:40, 12:45 p.m.
Q. Where did you proceed first?
A. Well, we went to go have lunch.
Q. After lunch, where did you go?
A. I was directed to go to the Chevron truck stop located --
Q. Who directed you to go there?
A. Mr. Lucas.
Q. Why did he want you to go to the Chevron truck stop?
A. That’s where he said he wanted to start from. He said he was familiar with it and he said he wanted to start there.
Q. So that was your starting reference point?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. After arriving at the Chevron truck stop, what did you do?
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Then I asked Henry which way he wanted to go and he just went, “Towards the interstate going eastbound.” And then before coming out of the parking lot there asking, “Well, do you want to go on the access road or do you want to get on the freeway,” and get on the freeway.”
“Get on the freeway going eastbound.”
“And asked, “What lane do you want us to stay in?” We were to stay in the right-hand lane. Stayed in the right-hand lane.
Q. Approximately what speed did you travel on the freeway?
A. About 45 miles an hour.
Q. Did you travel all the time that you were on the freeway at the same approximate speed?
A. Yes, sir. On the freeway, yes, sir.
Q. What happened next?
A. Well, we continued on the freeway, and I believe it was the Lomaland exit he said to get off the interstate and then go, it would be south, on Lomaland.
Q. Was he looking for a reference point to exit the freeway?
A. Yes. Yes he was.
Q. What type of reference point was he looking
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for?
He said he was looking for a convenience store and a gas station, a particular gas station.
Q. All right. So then you went down Lomaland? Is that correct?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. Which direction on Lomaland?
A. That would be south on Lomaland.
Q. Was that at his direction?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. What happened as you traveled down Lomaland? How was Henry Lucas reacting and what, if anything, was said?
A. He kept looking around, I guess, trying to familiarize himself with the area and kept looking for the grocery store. I said, “No, no.” And then I said, “What do you want to do, Henry?”
He said, “Well, just keep on going.” So I kept continuing traveling south. And I guess at this time the speed was about 20 miles an hour or somewhere around there, And we got as far as the school - - I believe it’s Loma Terrace School -- and Henry said, “No, no, we come to far. This isn’t the area. This isn’t the street. Let’s go back.”
So I made a U-turn and went back north on
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Lomaland. Going back I asked Henry, “Where do you want to go, Henry?” He said, “Go to the interstate and right there.”
So we got to Lomaland and the interstate. I said, “What do you want to do now, Henry?”
He said, “Well, go ahead and get on the access road.”
I said, “Do you want to get on the freeway or do you want to stay on the access road?” I believe at this time he said, “No, go ahead and stay on the access road.” So we stayed on the access road, which is - - actually it’s Gateway East.
We just continued going eastbound and the whole time was looking around, There was construction, but I don’t remember that exact comments he made but he said, “Looks like the area, but keep on going.”
So we went down there towards Zaragoza and Gateway and he said, “Turn right,” and we turned right and this is going southbound on Zaragoza. That’s when he looked at the - - it was remodeled, I believe it’s a Texaco station. He said, “That’s the station I was looking for, but it’s been remodeled or they did something to it.” And then - -
Q. Did you go back later and find out if that
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Texaco station had been remodeled since the May 27, ’83, incident?
Well, what happened is that - - Of course, we had to ask around, and in doing so, I learned that, yes, it had been remodeled since that time.
Q. Then what? Let’s see. He noted that station and then you turned to the right on Zaragoza Road?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. Did he note anything else there near the corner of Zaragoza and Interstate 10 east?
A. Well, going southbound we noticed this convenience store. He said, “Keep on going southbound.”
Q. Do you recall the convenience store name?
A. I think he said he was looking for a Mini Mart or that’s what he called it, Mini Mart something like that. But if I recall correctly, it’s a Good Time Store, but I’m not really sure.
Q. Did he mention if he had stopped at either of those places on the dates of the offense?
A. No, I don’t recall.
Q. Then you proceeded on, I suspect, continued south on Zaragoza. Is that correct?
A. Yes, that’s correct.
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Q. What was Henry doing as you continued southbound on Zaragoza?
A. He was looking all around from the left to the right. Of course, he was in the right front seat and he was just looking around, looking around, “Just keep on going, keep on going.” He said, “The tracks are here somewhere.”
Q. He was looking for a reference point of railroad tracks?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. Did - - When you approached the intersection of Zaragoza and North Loop, did Henry Lucas say anything at that location?
A. We just kept looking around asking, “Well, what do you want to do Henry, turn left, turn right? What do you want to do?”
“No, keep on going straight.” Something to the effect that it looks familiar, but he wasn’t sure. He said, “No, just keep on going straight.”
Q. When was the next significant comment he made about the area that you recall?
A. When we got close to the railroad tracks, he said, “Those were the tracks I was talking about.”
Q. Approximately what speed were you traveling on Zaragoza?
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About 20 miles an hour.
Q. Now, the other vehicle, was there another vehicle following you?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. How many vehicles were following you?
A. It was just us, the lead vehicle, and Sergeant Apodaca in the following vehicle.
Q. Who was in the vehicle with Sergeant Apodaca?
A. It was another Texas Ranger. I believe he was the pilot, but I don’t recall his name.
Q. Is that all?
A. As far as I recall, yes, sir.
Q. Then after you saw the railroad tracks, what happened?
A. Well, then he started looking around even more so. But he said, “No, keep on going.”
I said okay. So - - meaning keep on going southbound on Zaragoza. And I think we passed Alameda, kept looking around, looking around, “keep on going.” So we started going towards - - across Alameda still southbound on Zaragoza. And we got close to the cemetery, he said, “No, no, go back. We have come too far. This ain’t it up here. Turn around and go back.” So down there by the cemetery
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we turned around and came back.
Q. That Zaragoza Road is the road that leads to the international bridge at Zaragoza?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. To cross over into Mexico?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. How close, approximately, is that cemetery from the International boundary crossing?
A. I guess one mile.
Q. Mrs. Apodaca’s home is only how far, probably from Mexico?
A. About between two and two-and-one-half miles.
Q. Now, when you got to the cemetery, what did Henry Lucas say, again?
A. He said, “No, we come too far. Turn around. Let’s go back.”
Q. Did you do that?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Then you proceeded back up Zaragoza up Zaragoza in a northerly direction?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. Where did you go from there?
A. Coming back north on Zaragoza, then from then we turned right in a street, and we made several turns afterwards but - -
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Q. You were not the person keeping the notes on where you turned right, where you turned left?
A. No, I was not.
Q. But there were several turns made?
A. Yes, sir, there were a lot of turns.
Q. At whose direction were you turning the vehicle and going from different location to different location?
A. At Henry’s direction.
Q. Approximately how long did it take you or did it take Henry Lucas to find the victim’s home?
A. Henry found it in about, I would say, about 55 minutes, somewhere in there.
Q. Does that count the time from the time you leave Airway, the service station, Chevron service station or does that count the time when you arrived on Zaragoza and North Loop?
A. No, from the time we left the Chevron service station to the time we parked the vehicle and he directed us towards the house.
Q. Do you recall as you were driving through these residential areas these turns that you talked about making, was there anything that Henry Lucas told you he was looking for, any things he was looking for?
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Well, he said he was looking for that small wooden fence. He said, “I can’t see it. I know it’s there.” And I think one other item he was looking for was the porch, the half porch.
Q. Did he ever talk about a river or water that he was looking for?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. How did that come up?
A. I believe it was when we were coming back on Zaragoza northbound he noticed that the bridge and then the canal was full of water. He said, “There’s the river, a bridge and a river. It’s actually a canal. It was full of water at that time. “That’s the river I was looking for.”
Q. DO you remember back on May 27th - - or actually the dates you were at the crime scene a day or so later, do you recall if the canal was also full at the time? A. Yes, it was.
Q. Do you remember yesterday you were talking about Henry Lucas mentioning some pipes and some tin buildings? Do you recall that?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. Did you-all ever get in the vicinity of
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anything that looked like that?
Yes, sir, we did.
Q. Did Henry make any comments about that?
A. We turned on a street going eastbound, runs parallel to the tracks, and he said, “those - - That’s the tin buildings I was talking about and those are the metal pipes or concrete pipes that I was telling you about.” I don’t recall the name of the street, though.
Q. At what point did he tell you to stop the vehicle so that he could get out?
A. Well, when he said he had found the house, he said, “I think I have got the house and go ahead and stop, pull over here.”
We were on - - I believe it’s Old Pueblo Road where we stopped the vehicle. I don’t know the exact address that we parked in front of the house.
We got out of the car and Henry says - - he just started walking towards the residence, which is it’s like an alleyway. And he says, “This is the alleyway.” And then going eastbound from Old Pueblo Road - - Actually it’s not an alleyway. It’s like an opening between several houses, but it gives the appearance of an alleyway.
And Henry took the lead and we just followed
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him. He kept on walking.
Q. Did he reach the residence of 144 Irma Place?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. What did he do upon reaching that residence?
A. We go there and he looked at the house and he looked and looked, and then he just - - moving his head back and forth and he said, “This is the house, but it’s different. The color is different. He said, “The cars, these cars weren’t here.” He pointed towards the - -
Q. Was the house different?
A. Yes, sir, it had been painted different.
Q. What about the - - What else did he do outside the house? Did he point out things to you while you were still outside?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct. He pointed towards that - - it would be the southeastern portion of the residence and he said, “That’s the door I went in, the kitchen door I went in.”
Q. Could you tell from standing outside the window that what he was pointing to was a bedroom?
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Was there any way to tell from where you were standing outside?
No, sir, not unless you had been in there.
Q. Was it, in fact, the room in which - - the master bedroom in the house where the attack had - - initially had taken place?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. All right. And then you - - Did he point out any other things outside the house?
A. Kept looking for that wooden fence. And he looked over there and he says - - you could see a small portion of the wooden fence. He said, “That’s the wooden fence I was looking for, but I don’t recall that.” They had put a chain-link fence. He said, “I don’t recall that fence being there.”
And he kept looking around towards the eastern portion of the house and he said, “There is something missing. There is something missing there. I know there was something there, but it’s not there anymore.”
Q. What, in fact - - Was something missing from there?
A. Yes, that’s correct.
Q. What was missing?
A. Well, they had a small wooded shed similar
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To a dog house but a lot bigger, and it was adjacent to the wooden fence but detached from the residence. And at the time of the offense it was there.
Q. Did he mention to you anything about him being in the proximity of the fence on the date of the murder, you know, that he was - - did he mention anything to you about his involvement in that fence?
A. Well, he said after he left the residence and going back towards his car, he said he went back behind the house, by the house and had to go over a wooden fence through an open field and then - - to get to his car.
Q. Had any items been found in the area of that wooden fence?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. What had been found?
A. If I recall correctly, it was a small turquoise jewelry, an earring or a ring or something like that. That was found, I believe it would be, in the northeastern portion outside of the residence close to that wooden fence.
Q. Did Henry Lucas note or say, talk about anything else about the house while you were outside?
A. I don’t recall any other major, no - - Well, okay. He pointed towards the, I guess it would be,
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The southwestern portion of the house. He said, “That’s the living room. That’s the living room I was telling you about,” and which is, “Yeah, that’s the living room. And then, of course, that little girl was coming by.
Q. All right. Then, what, a little girl came by after school?
A. Right, that’s correct.
Q. And could she get into the house or did you-all talk to her or - -
A. No, we were standing away from the residence and we had been there several minutes. And the little girl was coming by and she looked at us, but she kept walking towards the window next to the front door. And then she looked like she took off the screen and pushed the window and just got - - went in through the window. And a little while later she came out through the front door. Apparently she didn’t have her key.
Q. Did you approach the little girl and ask her mother was or where her parents were?
A. Well, what we did is we asked Henry if he could show us or tell us about things that occurred inside the residence, if we could get permission.
He said, “Yeah, be glad to.” So myself and
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Sergeant Apodaca went to the front door, knocked on the door, and the little girl came to the door. And we asked her if her mother was there, and she said no, her mother was at work.
“Do you have her phone number at work?”
“Yeah.”
“Could we call her or could you call your mother so we could talk to her?”
The little girl was very helpful. She went and got the phone and called her mother, and Sergeant Apodaca got on the phone and talked to her and asked if she could please talk to her at her residence.
Q. And did the mother show up?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. Didn’t take her long to get there?
A. No, a few minutes.
Q. When she got there did she allow you-all to go into the house?
A. Yes, she did.
Q. What did she and her little girl do while you-all were going through the house?
A. Well, I just recall we asked, “Where do you want to start, Henry?”
And he said, “I want to go to the kitchen door.” So we went to that side door and that’s the
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Place, the last time I saw the mother and daughter was there in, I call it, the living room area. And I didn’t see them again until after we were getting ready to leave.
Q. Okay. They didn’t come back into the areas where you-all were with Henry Lucas?
A. No, they did not.
Q. What things did Henry Lucas tell you about the house while you were inside the house?
A. Well, he went in through the door. He said, “This looks like the door,” and he says - - then he got into the kitchen and he said, “Yeah, it looks like the kitchen here.” And he pointed, “Down over there is the room, the bedroom,” and then he went. Of course, he had to lead all the time. He went down the hallway into the room, he said, “That’s the bathroom I was telling you about.” He said, “That’s where I washed up.”
And he peeked in there. He said, “See, that’s the type of bathtub I was telling you about.”
And, of course, the bathroom is kind of adjacent to the master bedroom, and that’s where the lady was. Because we had by then gone into that master bedroom, which is located in the southeastern portion of the residence, and he says, “The axe was - -
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And then he kept looking at the bed. He said, “Well there is something different,” and all this. He kept saying, “It doesn’t look right, the furniture.”
And he kept looking. He said, “No, doesn’t seem like it.” He said, “If I recall correctly, the bed was” - - he kept trying to motion, trying to figure out if it was one angle or another. There was a nightstand over here, a dresser here. And he would just - - he wasn’t sure.
So then he said, “I believe I left the axe here,” and he wasn’t sure whether it was by the doorway or right against the bed, which would be - - which would place it maybe three or four feet from the doorway itself.
Q. Where was the axe actually found?
A. If I recall correctly, it was by the doorway.
Q. So in other words, he was basically correct with where the axe was in the house?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. Was he correct in the assessment of the actual location of the furniture, the location of where the nightstand was and the dresser and - -
A. I think he got them reversed. The nightstand on one side of the bed and the dresser on the other side and the angle of the bed, because the
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Bed was at an angle because I guess it wouldn’t fit perpendicular to the wall. It was like at an angel. He was - - He was pretty close on the angle, if I recall correctly.
Q. After showing you that back portion of the house, the portion of the master bedroom and bathroom, did he show you any other area?
A. He walked into that other bedroom. I says, “Well, what did you do here, Henry?”
He says, “I went through some of the - - there was a drawer here, chest of drawers. I went through there looking for some things.”
“And then what did you do?”
“Well,” he started saying, “There was a bed here.”
“And what did you do then?”
He said, “Well, I just pulled covers over here.”
I said, “Why?”
“I don’t know. I just did.” And he went to the next bedroom.
Q. Had the covers in that bedroom been actually pulled back at the time of the murder?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. Had that chest of drawers been gone through?
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Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. Back at the time of the murder, had there appeared to be any reason why that bedspread had been pulled back?
A. We saw the bed covers. We just couldn’t figure out the rationale for it. Just hard to figure out.
Q. Did you-all go to any other areas in the house?
A. Well, he went - - continued down the hallway and he said, “Here is about where I hit her and then she fell,” and that he walked towards the front door. And he stopped about five or six feet from the front door. He said, “Here is about where she fell and here is where I did the job on her.”
Q. How far off was he on the actual position of the body and where he was telling you?
A. Well, he was about, 10, 15, 20 feet away from where the body actually lay. It was more towards what I call the dining room area which is going back towards the eastern portion of the
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residence away from the front door.
Q. All right. Did you go ahead and exit the house, then?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. Approximately how long do you think you spent inside the house?
A. Maybe 30 minutes. Not very long.
Q. After exiting the house, did the defendant make any further comments about the dwelling or did you-all question him any more about it?
A. No, not really. Just that he went alongside of the house. He said, “That’s the fence I was looking for, but it’s different. It’s not the way it was.” And, of course, he was looking at that chain-link fence, also. “This wasn’t here.” He just looked around and we left going - - we went back towards the car, towards the same area we got there.
Q. After getting back in the car, where did you go?
A. Well, we decided to come back to our office and, of course, confer with our supervisor and the district attorney’s office.
Q. On the trip back did you go by the Chevron truck stop?
A. Yes, we did.
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Q. Before getting to the Chevron truck stop, did either you or Detective Perez question him - - Pardon me - - Detective Uribe question him about what had happened to some of the property he had stolen.
A. We were just kind of making small talk coming back on the freeway. And he said, “That’s the freeway” - - I mean. Correction - - “That’s the truck stop.”
And if I recall correctly, I think he sold some of the stuff there. I’m not sure what it was. I keep thinking it was something fairly large, but I’m not sure what it was. But that girl was real foxy, a real foxy girl. Kind of described the girl there at the truck stop.
I said, “What do you mean, Henry? Was it that same night, another night or what?”
He said, “If I recall correctly, I think it was that same night. After I washed up, I drove back to this truck stop and I saw this girl there and I know I sold some stuff there.”
Q. Could he recall what he sold? A. No.
Q. After arriving back here at the police department crimes against persons office, is that when the videotape confession was taken?
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Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. Do you recall near the end of the videotape when Henry Lucas related to you that he had some more cases here in El Paso and he might come back on a later occasion to help you work on those?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. The next reply after that was a question by you: “That would be no problem. There is no other question unless you have something to add.”
And Henry Lucas’ reply, “No, I think I pretty well gave you all the detail. Of course, the one thing I did forget to mention after leaving the house< I did go back to the truck stop and sat in there and talked to a girl in there. I tried to get her to go with me. She wouldn’t go. After that I went to San Antonio.”
Okay. That particular phrase, do you remember that?
Yes, sir.
Q. That came up at the very end or near the very end of the taped interview, and, of course, you just testified to the part in the automobile when you were coming back he told you - - or he told you about selling some of the stolen property there?
A. Yes, sir.
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Q. After the taped interview was over, did you requestion him and try to gain some details about the people that he sold that property to?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. What did - - How did that conversation occur and what did you ask him?
A. I asked Henry if he could describe the girl and he said he could.
Q. What description did he give you?
A. If I could find my notes here.
Well, he said she was foxy looking, about 22 or 23 years old, Anglo, approximately 5 foot 2 in height, and he said she was well proportioned. And he said that there was another blonde-headed girl there in her 20’s, but he couldn’t describe too much of her. And then he said there were two other Mexican females in there and he said there were two black females in the kitchen. And he seemed to recall that there was black-headed cashier.
Q. At that point could he still relate to you what it was that he had actually sold?
A. No, he could not.
Q. Just like in his taped interview he said, “Maybe I can remember later.” Is that it?
A. Yes, that’s correct.
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Q. Based on the descriptions that you had received from Henry Lucas of the two Anglo females working at the Chevron truck stop, did you, after Henry Lucas left town - - Pardon me.
After this interview with Henry Lucas, after the videotaping was completed, did you have any more discussions with him, or did you have him transported over to the jail?
Well, I asked him if he could draw a - - He stated he parked his car in the parking lot of the truck stop. And I asked him, “Well, do you think you could draw a map of the truck stop and perhaps where you parked your car?”
If I recall correctly, he drew a map for me or a sketch of the truck stop in relationship to where he parked his car.
Q. Is that State’s Exhibit 5 that we have already looked at or was it another drawing?
A. I think it’s - - Well, that’s one for sure. In the small corner of - -
Q. I’ll let you look at that again. Was this the diagram or was it another diagram that he drew?
A. This is one diagram. But I thought I had drawn another diagram where he said he parked his car.
Q. Okay. Would you have put that in this
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notebook or would you have put that somewhere else?
It could have been in another - - in another notebook.
Q. Where did he show you he had parked the car, or stated that he parked the car?
A. Well, he said he parked the car facing the freeway. And this - - Of course, there is a sidewalk area that runs adjacent to Gateway East and you have the restaurant. Adjacent to the restaurant is the sidewalk area that extends away from the restaurant and then people park adjacent to the sidewalk. Well, he said he parked in that area but on the other side with the southern portion facing the freeway. And there was a light fixture on the, I guess, 30 or 40 feet from the restaurant.
He said, “Well, I parked somewhere in this area facing the interstate.
Q. Okay. And then did you have any further conversations with Henry Lucas that evening regarding this case?
A. I don’t think so. I don’t recall.
Q. Did you or did someone else have him transported over to the jail?
A. I think we took him to the county jail.
Q. Prior to leaving the Southwest Air Rangers
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with Henry Lucas and going on this trip to take you-all back to the crime scene, did you warn the defendant of his rights?
I believe when we got to the truck stop, before we left the truck stop, we gave him his rights.
Q. So it was at that point that you read him his statutory warnings?
A. That’s correct.
Q. The same warnings, I think, didn’t you read them yesterday in court?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You just read them straight off of that card?
A. Yes, that’s correct.
Q. Did you ask him if he understood those rights?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. Did you ask him if he wished to waive those rights and go ahead and make any statements and go to take you to the crime scene?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. Did he, in fact, waive those rights?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. Did you in any way coerce, force the defendant to make any statements or take you to the crime scene or make any of the statements that led to
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the subsequent finding of property related to this case?
No, I did not.
Q. Did you in any way promise him anything in exchange for these statements?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Did anybody else?
A. No, sir.
Q. In your presence?
A. No, sir.
Q. And he was always in your presence during this trip?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. Then you did not have any more discussions with Henry Lucas that day or the next you recall?
A. No, sir, I don’t recall. That I recall, no, sir.
Q. Did you then try to begin checking out the defendant’s story about going to the truck stop?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. What did you do to try to check that story out?
A. Well, I went with Detective Ed Uribe, went back to the truck stop and we talked to the manager, I believe her name was Mona Cardinal, and we asked
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Her if she was working back in 1983, May of 1983.
She said, “Yeah, I was working then, but I left the restaurant the early part,” because she was pregnant. I said, “Do you recall any of the girls that were working there?”
She said, “Well, I am fairly familiar with them.”
I said, “Well, do you recall the girl” - - I gave her the description brown hair, 5 foot 2 female, maybe 22, 23, foxy-looking, well proportioned.
She said, “It sounds like Kelly McMurray, but I’m not really sure if she was working at that time because I left the restaurant.”
And then she provided us with some other names of girls that had been working at that time, and then we just had to begin trying to locate those girls.
Q. Did you ask her for anybody in relationship to the second Anglo female, the one that was little bit older?
A. Well, a blonde-headed one, she said, “Well, may sound like Kathy Watson, but Kathy is a little heavier. I don’t know, but you might talk to her.” So we were given Kathy Watson’s name, also. I believe Kathy at that time was working at Denny’s on
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Lomaland.
Q. Initially were you able to locate Kelly McMurray?
A. Well, it took a while. We had to locate some of her friends here in El Paso and then we were advised she was in California, El Cajon, California, outside of San Diego, California.
Q. All right. Did you locate Kathy Watson?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Did you talk to Kathy Watson?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. What did you talk to her about?
A. Well, it was all on the phone. And I asked her if she had been employed at the truck stop here in El Paso, and she said yes. And I asked her if she recalled the latter part of May 1983, anything in particular - - the holiday, the Memorial Day holiday, and just trying to use that as a reference point.
Q. Memorial Day?
A. 1983.
Q. 1983. That was a reference point. Memorial Day that year, do you recall what date Memorial Day was on? It’s usually the last Monday in May, isn’t it?
A. Yes, sir, I believe so.
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Q. This murder on May 27th had occurred when? Do you recall what date, the 27th, 28th?
A. It would have been Friday night, early Saturday morning, the 27th to the 28th.
Q. Okay.
Q. So after giving Kathy Watson the reference point of late May ’83, what else did you ask her?
A. Well, it was Kelly McMurray that I was talking to on the phone.
Q. Oh, you didn’t talk to Kathy Watson on the phone?
A. I talked to Kathy Watson here, also.
Q. I thought you were talking about Kathy Watson. Are we talking about Kathy Watson or Kelly McMurray, first?
A. I thought it was Kelly.
Q. It was Kelly. So you were talking to Kelly McMurray over the phone and what did she tell you?
A. Well, asked her if she had been - - Of course, she recalled that time frame ans she kind of hesitated for awhile. And then she says, “Well, I vaguely recall.”
And I says, “Well, do you recall buying any items at the truck stop?”
And she said, “Yeah, I bought some stuff
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There, but the other people that were truck drivers were selling stuff there, also.”
I said, “Well, how about towards the last part of May? Do you recall that?” And that’s when the conversation came to a crockpot and a vacuum cleaner. I says. “You bought that there?” and she said yeah.
“Well, do you recall when?”
And she said, “Well, I don’t remember the exact date, no, but it’s towards the last part of May.”
“How about the person that you bought it from? Do you recall what he looked like?”
And she thought for awhile and she said, “Well, it seems like it was an older guy, in his 40’s, somewhere around there. Not very tall, not very short, either.”
And then the conversation came back around to her father, and says, well, you know, I asked her, “Have you ever heard of Henry Lee Lucas?”
“Yeah, as a matter of fact, my dad has a Life magazine and I was looking at it because my dad showed it to me. And that’s the person. It looks like the person that I bought that stuff from. You know, I can’t be positive. It looks like him.”
I was going to ask, “Well, does your father
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still have that magazine with that photograph in it?”
She says, “I’m sure he does.”
“Well, could you ask if he could hold it for us?”
She said she would. And we started talking more about the items that she had bought. She felt fairly certain it was a crockpot and a vacuum cleaner that she had bought. And then she started relating they even tried the vacuum cleaner at the truck stop.
I asked her, “Well, did you - - did anybody else, any other girls buy anything?”
And then she felt that maybe Kathy Watson, one of the other girls, might have bought something, but she wasn’t really sure.
Q. Did you arrange for her to send the crockpot to you?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. Did you ask her what happened to the vacuum cleaner?
A. Well, if I recall correctly, her boyfriend - - or her boyfriend kept the vacuum cleaner, Richard Drake, I believe was his name, there in Denver, Colorado. Apparently they split up and Kelly come on to San Diego or El Cajon, California, and Richard Drake stayed in Denver, Colorado.
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And I asked her if she had a phone number, address or location where perhaps we could get ahold of him. And the phone number that I was provided had been changed, and I contacted the police department in Denver and they were subsequently able to locate Richard Drake and they talked to him in reference to the vacuum cleaner.
Richard, according to the conversation that was told to me when I talked to that officer, he said that all he remembers is that he recalls that vacuum cleaner, but that he had left it or gave it to the church in Denver. And somewhere in my notes I have the name of the church, which I provided to the investigator in Denver and he made contact with the church authorities. But he was told the church did not keep records of items that were donated to them and they had no way of tracing that vacuum cleaner.
Q. So you were unable to trace the vacuum cleaner any further that to the church and then whatever the church did with it is unknown?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. But with regard to the crockpot, you did get the crockpot back?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. Then did you talk to Kathy Watson?
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Yes, I did.
Q. What did you talk to her about?
A. Well, basically if she could recall the - - if she was working the latter part of May of 1983 and if she was working at the truck stop and she bought - - or she was working that Memorial Day weekend and if she recalls buying any items from any individual there. And she didn’t seem to think she had bought anything, but she recalled that she had wanted to buy a stereo for her boyfriend and she was interested in that, and then she recalled there was an individual that sold some items there and that, as a matter of fact, he had taken a vacuum cleaner and had tried the vacuum cleaner inside the restaurant.
And at some point in the conversation, she said that the man also had a stereo which is what Kathy Watson was interested in. She went to the car of this individual and said that the car was, of course, parked facing the freeway in what she called the employee parking lot or parking area.
She recalled she looked at a stereo, but the stereo was kind of old and the stereo was the type that the speakers kind of swing out in front of the main body and the turntable. She felt that the turntable kind of dell out, also, and she said that,
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No, the stereo was too old-looking, it wouldn’t serve her purpose.
Q. Did she relate to you the coloring?
A. If I recall correctly, it’s some white or gray with black or some color. I don’t recall the exact color.
Q. Did you ask her to describe the person?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. How did she describe the person whom she had bought the property from?
A. A white male, approximately 5 foot 11, dark brown hair and bad teeth. And she said that he was missing teeth.
Q. Did you show her the photo lineup?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. In the photograph lineup was Henry Lee Lucas’ picture present?
A. Yes, it was.
Q. What - - Were these straight-on shots of the face or how was the photo lineup?
A. Yes, the frontal view of the individuals.
Q. Did she tentatively identify Henry Lucas on the photo lineup?
A. Yes, she did.
Q. In discussing her opportunity to view Henry
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Lucas with you, did she state - - or did she - - did she talk about her main view of the defendant? In other words, was it a straight-on view most of the time or was it a side view or what?
A. Kathy said that the individual talked to Kelly but that Kathy observed the individual from a profile, side profile more of the time than from the actual frontal view. And she asked if I had another photograph that we can show the profile if the individuals.
Q. Did you have the profile?
A. I only had the one end profile of Henry Lucas.
Q. Did she look at that?
A. Yes, she did.
Q. Based on that profile, did she positively identify Henry Lucas?
A. Yes, she did.
Q. Did you subsequently get some work records from the truck stop to see if Kelly McMurray and Kathy Watson were working on the night of the 27th, 28th, 29th, sometime in the late May of 83?
A. Yes, we did.
Q. Did you verify the fact that they had been working together?
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Yes, I did.
Q. Do you recall what date it was that they were working together?
A. I believe it’s the 29th, 28th, or 29th. I’m not really sure.
Q. Okay. The day after the murder on the 27th?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. They worked that night?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. Did you subsequently go back and interview any family members to try ascertain property that was still unaccounted for?
A. Yes, we did.
Q. What did - - Who did you interview in regards to that?
A. The first person was Dawn Russell due to the fact that - -
Q. Who is she?
A. She was the niece of the deceased. And she had lived with Mrs. Apodaca more of the time than anyone else in the family and she was more familiar with several of the items that might be possibly missing.
Q. Did you interview anyone else at the time?
A. Her mother, Dawn Russell’s mother. I
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believe it’s Erma.
Q. How was she related to the deceased?
A. That’s a daughter, daughter to the deceased.
Q. Did you have a chance to show them a photograph of the crockpot.
A. I don’t recall a photograph.
Q. All right. Did you have a chance to discuss with them items that were missing?
A. Yes.
Q. What items did they recall at that time that were missing?
A. Well, we asked Dawn if she ever owned a stereo, and she said, yeah, as a matter of fact, her dad had given her - - I believe it was her natural dad had given her a stereo, or grandfather - - her grandfather had given her a stereo. And we asked her to describe the stereo. And she said, as a matter of fact - - and she motioned with her hands about 24-, 30-some odd inches long, and the speakers kind of fell out from the main body of the stereo and the turntable fell out, also, or detached from the stereo.
I said, I asked her, “Well, can you locate that stereo?”
And then she said, “No. As a matter of fact, I didn’t even know it was missing.” As she started
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asking, trying to find it, and she said that she couldn’t. At least she went back later on to look for it and couldn’t find the stereo.
Q. Did the description that she gave of the stereo match the description that Kathy Watson had given?
A. Yes, that’s correct?
Q. Did the description that Henry Lucas gave where he had parked his car before going in to sell this property match the description of where Kathy Watson said she went to a car with the person she identified as Henry Lucas?
A. Yes, it did.
Q. Do you remember did you subsequently - - were you subsequently involved in a meeting with the family members to determine the disposition of the items for the estate of Mrs. Apodaca?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. Where was that held?
A. I believe it was Dr. Candelaria’s house and the family members gathered there, but I don’t recall the exact address or the street.
Q. Did we bring the crockpot to the meeting?
A. Yes, we did.
Q. Approximately how many family members were
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there?
I would say at least 20, 20 to 30.
Q. Did they range in age from, well, older people down to children?
A. Yes, that’s correct.
Q. Approximately how many of them identified the crockpot as being one just like the one the grandmother had?
A. The most - - The majority of the family members.
Q. Were you able to ascertain that that crockpot was, in fact, missing, had never been accounted for?
A. Well, they knew that she had several crockpots, and the reason is that they all remembered when they had the family gatherings and somebody would bring in the meat or whatever and they cooked it or would heat it up in the crockpots. But they couldn’t say, yes, that’s the same one, no. They said it was similar to one like that.
But then we tried to ascertain from the family members if any of them had taken a crockpot during the division of the property, and it was nothing conclusive there. Nobody recalled a crockpot had been taken by the family.
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Q. In other words, nobody in the family had the crockpot?
A. Yes, that’s correct.
Q. So we ascertained that it was one of the items that had been stolen?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. Then on October 25th, 1984, did Henry Lucas return to El Paso?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. Like he had said in what was his previous taped interview or one of your oral conversations with him that if he got a chance he might come back later and help you on some other cases?
A. Yes, sir, that’s right.
Q. Did you go out that day and did he try to help you on some cases?
A. Yes, sir, he did.
Q. That evening did he testify before the grand jury?
A. Yes, sir, he did.
Q. Was he there present in the crimes against persons office?
A. Yes, he was.
Q. Prior to going over to testify?
A. Yes, he was.
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Q. Do you recall who came over and warned him of his rights in regards to testifying?
A. Yes, sir. It was yourself, Mr. Bill Moody.
Q. Do you recall what I told him?
A. Well, if I recall correctly, you asked Henry if he wanted to testify before the grand jury and he said he wasn’t sure. He said he had to make some calls first. He wanted to call Sister Clemmie, I believe, or Bob Prince of the Texas Rangers, and then he talked it over with some - - the rangers.
And you asked him, “Well, do you need a lawyer or attorney to confer with in case you do decide to testify before the grand jury?”
He said, “No, no, I don’t want no attorneys. I don’t like attorneys.” And then he went back and talked to - - it was several other Texas Rangers that had come in. One was a pilot, but I don’t recall his name. And then he conferred with him. And after a while he decided yes, he would testify before the grand jury. And then he said that, well, he had never done - - or he had never testified before a grand jury before, so that’s why he was kind of hesitant to testify.
Q. Do you recall if I talked to him about whether or not the decision to testify was his?
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Yes, I recall that. You said, “Well, it’s up to you, Henry, whether you want to testify or not. Only you can make up your own mind, your own decision, on that.”
Henry said, “Yeah, I know.”
Q. Was anybody pressuring him to testify?
A. No, sir.
Q. After making his phone calls, did he voluntarily decide to testify?
A. Yes, sir, he did.
Q. He expressly stated he did not want to talk to a lawyer?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. Check very quickly through his supplements to make sure I haven’t overlooked something.
MR. MOODY: Pass the witness.
THE COURT: We are going to take a short break at this time, ladies and gentlemen.
(Recess was taken at 10:20 a.m.)
THE COURT: All right, Ms. Sipes, you may cross-examine.
MS. SIPES: Thank you, Your Honor.
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BY MR. PONTON:
Q. Detective Perez, when was the first contact you had with any member of the Department of Public Safety or the Texas Rangers regarding Henry Lucas being involved in any murder in El Paso County?
A. We talked to him about making arrangements to Sierra Blanca, it would have been the morning of September the 19th, I believe, 1984.
Q. Were you aware that Henry Lucas had been interviewed by fellow members of the El Paso Police Department crimes against persons office in December of 19983 regarding El Paso area murders?
A. I knew that he had come in and had talked to him, but I didn’t know any of the details, no, sir.
Q. Had you talked to Greg Lucas about any of those interviews he had conducted with Henry Lucas in December of 1983 and February of 1984?
A. No, sir, not really.
Q. When you say, “not really,” what type of conversations did you have? Did you discuss any of the details that Henry Lucas was giving Greg Lucas about El Paso area murders?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did Greg Lucas tell you that Henry Lucas had
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confessed to five different El Paso area murders?
No, sir.
Q. Did Greg Lucas tell you that they had been unable to find any of the bodies of the victims that Henry Lucas allegedly had killed?
A. You mean - - I think he may have mentioned one that they couldn’t find, but I really didn’t go into it.
Q. And you did not talk to any members of the DPS or Texas Rangers until September 19th, 1984, in regards to Henry Lucas?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. Had you spoken to any members of the DPS or the Texas Rangers until September 19th, 1984, regarding your investigation into the death of Librada Apodaca?
A. Maybe talked to - - Yes, sir. Would have been, I believe it was John Rudd and maybe Pernie Pena, but I’m not sure as far as the extent of the conversation.
Q. Who is John Rudd?
A. He is, I believe is what you would call, analysis expert or lab expert for the Texas Department of Public Safety.
Q. What, did he do some tests for you regarding
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the death of Librada Apodaca?
I think we sent all the bed sheets and items from the residence to him. There were several items taken to him here in El Paso and several other items were sent to the lab in Austin. And we were just trying to figure out or ascertain what we had here in El Paso, what we had in Austin and what was going to be sent to Austin.
Q. Did you send to Austin to have analyzed the semen found on the victim’s panties?
A. No, sir, I did not.
Q. Did someone else in your department?
A. I believe so, yes, sir.
Q. When was that sent to Austin?
A. I have no idea.
Q. Was it prior to or after the interviews with Henry Lucas in September of 1984?
A. I believe it was prior to.
Q. Did you have access to any laboratory report telling you what the blood and secretor type was of the semen found on the victim’s panties prior to your interview with Henry Lucas in September of 1984?
A. Yes, sir. I believe it was - - Yes, sir, I think I did.
Q. You did have that information prior to
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interviewing Henry Lucas in September of 1984?
I believe what U had was the blood type.
Q. Okay. And the secretor type, also?
A. I don’t recall exactly. I don’t recall.
Q. Did you ask the Department of Public Safety what Henry Lucas’ blood and secretor type was prior to your interviewing him regarding the death of Librada Apodaca?
A. No, sir, I did not.
Q. Have you subsequently learned what his blood and secretor type is?
A. I believe he’s A negative, but I’m not really sure.
Q. Let me put it to you this way. Have you subsequently learned that Henry Lucas’ blood and secretor type is different that the blood and secretor type found on the panties - - on the semen found on the panties of the victim?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And all the information, would all that information have been available to you prior to your interview with Henry Lucas in September of 1984?
A. I don’t know.
Q. Well, you have testified that you knew what the blood type was on the panties. Is that correct?
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On the panties. I thought - -
Q. You said the blood type found in the semen on the panties you testified to me just a minute ago that you knew what that was prior to interviewing Henry Lucas. Is that correct?
A. I thought you were referring to Mr. Lucas’ blood type.
Q. No, Detective Perez. I’m sorry. I’m not trying to confuse you.
Is it your testimony that prior to September of 1984 the members of the El Paso Police Department knew what the blood and secretor type was of the semen found on the victim’s panties?
I believe, yes. Of the blood type, yes.
Q. The blood type found in the semen found on the victim’s panties, you-all knew what that was?
A. I don’t know how they do that, but blood gathering or grouping on the semen. But if I recall correctly, we had information on the blood group, blood type, I should say. Now, on the semen, I don’t recall, at least from my viewpoint, having that information on semen as far as the blood group.
Q. Do you recall ever seeing any information regarding the semen being typed that was found on the victim’s panties?
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Yes. Yes.
Q. Do you recall when that semen was typed?
A. No, I sure don’t.
Q. Do you recall whether that semen was typed before or after your interview with Henry Lucas in September of 1984/
A. I believe it was after, but I’m not really sure. I’m not positive.
Q. That semen would have been taken from the crime scene on May 28th, 1983, would it not have been?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. Have you received any reports from John Rudd, the DPS analyst in Austin or here or wherever he is?
A. I may have, but at this particular time, I don’t recall.
Q. Well, you told me that the two contacts you had with the Department of Public Safety were with John Rudd and Fernie Pena?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. That was regarding evidence or items that was sent - - or that was being kept here in El Paso and other items had been sent to Austin and what had happened to the items.
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Q. Okay. What items?
A. Bed sheets, robe, panties, things of that nature. I don’t recall all the items that were sent.
Q. Do you know if it was semen sent?
A. That may have been sent, but I don’t know.
Q. Do you have any notes you have made regarding your investigation into this case?
A. Do I have any notes? Yes, sir.
Q. Do you have some supplements and reports that you made as a result of your investigation into this case?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. Do you think that if you looked at your notes it could refresh your memory regarding what items you may have sent to Mr. Rudd or Mr. Pena?
A. Well, I don’t think I sent any items.
Q. Well, do you think - - you have told me, sir, that you have been in contact with Mr. Rudd and Mr. Pena to have analysis made of certain physical items found from the crime scene of Librada Apodaca. Is that correct?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. Have you received any reports from them?
A. I may have, but I don’t recall.
Q. If you don’t recall, could you please look
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At your reports to see if they would refresh your memory? I believe that when you were testifying for the state, you had certain notes with you, maybe certain reports. If you could please do that, that way we could find out what, in fact, you might recall based upon your notes.
Q. I’d have to go through the file that the district attorney’s office has.
Q. We’re wiling for you to do that, sir. I’d like to know what reports you may have received from Mr. Rudd and Mr. Pena regarding any crime scene analysis or any other type of analysis.
A. Can I go over there, Judge?
THE COURT: Certainly.
You know, gentlemen, we have been going through discovery in this case for about six or eight months. This is part of the discovery. I don’t understand why these weren’t turned over to these defendants long before today.
MR. MOODY: They had been I turned over.
THE COURT: He just told me - -
MR PONTON: I have never seen a Rudd DPS, to my knowledge.
MR. MOODY: Yes, you have.
THE COURT: Mr. Moody, if he says he hasn’t,
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Let me suggest this to you: This Court ordered months ago that we get this discovery done and it should have been done. He should not have to be going through your files to get this information.
MR. MOODY: You don’t have that report? There it is.
MR. PONTON: But he mentioned a report from a Rudd.
MR. MOODY: This is Rudd and Pena, isn’t it?
MR. PONTON: It says Pena.
MR. MOODY: Pena is the same as Rudd. They work together. That’s the one. That’s the only one I know of.
MS. SIPES: This is not the one that refers to - - He says he took some bed sheets and he says he took the panties over there. We have the one that went to Austin, but not here.
MR. MOODY: I don’t have any record- -
THE COURT: You know, ladies and gentlemen, the reason that this case is costing so much is because we are not getting this information to each other. It’s going to cost - - It may put this country in bankruptcy if we keep going this way. If we will share information with each other, the defense attorneys will not have to drag it out of anybody and
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That way we can go on without taking these new depositions. It just seems like there are certain things that they are entitled to and they should have them>
MR. MOODY: We have let them have access to our files days and days on ends. We have given them copies and copies and copies of our case. We have given them full copy of our case. You know, I don’t know what more we can do.
THE COURT: Mr. Moody, I heard Mr. Perez just testify that he has been in touch with Mr. Rudd and Mr. Pena and that Mr. Rudd and Mr. Pena have given him reports. Now, where are they?
MR. MOODY: I don’t think he said that. He didn’t say that.
THE COURT: What is he in touch with them for?
MR. MOODY: I don’t know why he talked to them. It’s not in any of the case file here.
THE COURT: I can’t imagine why the police department would be in touch with people that test blood or test semen and not ask for a result of the test.
MR. MOODY: Well, you know, he might have been referring to this one right here on the Geovany
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Chavez one. That’s maybe what he is referring to.
THE COURT: Well, it seems to me what we are going to have to do is get Mr. Rudd and Mr. Pena in here and tell us what happened.
MR. MOODY: Well, that’s fine.
THE COURT: Mr. Perez, I wanted to ask you a question. Why would you be in touch with Mr. Rudd or Mr. Pena? Are they on your staff in the police department?
No, sir. The reason was that later on in the investigation I learned that we had property still here in El Paso that had not been sent to Austin and was trying to get all the property in Austin so it could all be examined to see if there was some evidence that could be helpful to us on the investigation. But apparently we had guys from identification and records that sent some to Austin and the other crew kept it here in El Paso, and then I was trying to get everything centralized or localized so we could have it one central location so we could get the reports back and perhaps be something there to benefit us.
THE COURT: And Mr. Rudd and Mr. Pena are the people it was sent to to be analyzed. Is that right?
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They sent some here in El Paso which Mr. Rudd and Mr. Pena are the experts in El Paso. There are some other agents in Austin. That’s why I called them, to see if they had any of the evidence here in El Paso, because I talked to several of the identification and records officers and some stuff was sent so Austin and some stuff was kept here in El Paso. And I wanted to verify it was all in Austin, if it wasn’t in Austin, to go to Austin.
MR. MOODY: So I mean, you know Austin did the analysis. That’s the report they have. It mentioned the bed sheets the panties. It mentioned all of that. They didn’t do an analysis here in El Paso by Rudd and Pena. That’s why there isn’t a report.
MS. SIPES: Your, Honor, that is contrary to Officer Perez’s testimony. Just now he said he took bed sheets out to DPS Officer Rudd and this was before October of 1984. The only item we have from Officer Rudd is 1986 and the blood from the now deceased suspect, Geovany Chavez. We have nothing from Mr. Rudd in the year of the murder or in 1984 whatsoever. I believe that’s what this gentleman testified to on direct.
THE COURT: Well, let’s find out right now.
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Somebody, whoever has him on examination right now, let’s ask him who examined what and where and when did they get it all together and when did it go to Austin. Let’s try to find out where it is or what has happened here.
MR. PONTON: May I approach the witness, Your Honor?
Q. (BY MR. PONTON): I’m going to show you a document that I want to introduce as Defense Exhibit 1, which is a copy of a DPS lab report dated January 28th, 1986, addressed to you from Fernie Pena.
Do you recognize that? That’s also been admitted in an disposition that we took on August 5th, 1986, of Jimmy Apodaca.
Yes, sir.
(Defendant’s exhibit marked, D-1)
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) That document, Defense Exhibit 1 at this pretrial hearing states that certain blood and liquid seminal fluid was submitted to the laboratory on January 24th, 1986. Is that correct?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. That was blood and seminal fluid from a suspect in this case by the name of Geovany Valenzuela Chavez. Is that correct?
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Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. It states that his blood was type A blood. Is that correct?
A. Yes, that’s correct.
Q. That his seminal fluid comes from a type A secretor individual?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. All right. Have you ever received any other report from Fernando Pena or Mr. Rudd from the DPS laboratory here in El Paso regarding the death of Librada Apodaca or any investigation into Henry Lucas?
A. No, sir. As far as I recall, this is the only one I received.
Q. Have you given any evidence or any requests to Frank Pena or Mr. Rudd here in El Paso regarding the death of Librada Apodaca or any investigation into Henry Lucas?
A. Just what is illustrated in this report.
Q. And that’s all?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right. Now, I want to show you what I’ll introduce as Defense Exhibit 2, and this is going to be a letter dated January 7th, 1986.
(Defendant’s exhibit marked, D-2)
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) Detective Perez, I want to
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show you what I marked for - -
MR. PONTON: At this time I would offer Defense 1 into evidence, Bill.
MR. MOODY: No objection.
THE COURT: Be admitted.
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) I want to show you what I have marked as Defense Exhibit 2 and the district attorney’s office has a copy of this. And this is a letter, a report dated January 7th, 1986, addressed to you, Detective Benito Perez, and signed by J.R. Urbanovsky, the supervisor from the criminalistics section of the Department of Public Safety. Can you identify that document?
A. Yes, sir, it’s sent to myself.
Q. Have you seen it before?
A. Apparently, but I don’t recall it.
Q. Is it not a copy of this same document that is before you right now from the district attorney’s file?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. These are the same documents, is that correct, these two items?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. Now, this document states that certain items were received on June 10th, 1985, by the laboratory
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At the Department of Public Safety. Is that correct?
Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. Among these items were pillow cases and bed sheets from - - Is that from the crime scene?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. Go ahead and look at your copy and I’ll read from my copy, if that’s all right. Also some of the evidence submitted was some vaginal swabs. Is that correct?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. And item 10 is panties. Is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, the second page of this report, the analysis states that the seminal stain found on the victim’s panties contain blood group substance A found in persons of group A secretor blood. Is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. The next paragraph states that Henry Lucas’ blood group is A nonsecretor. Is that correct?
A. Yes, that’s correct.
Q. Now, my question to you is: Have you sent any items to the Department of Public Safety laboratory in Austin other than the items reflected in this report?
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No, sir, not to my knowledge.
Q. At any time regarding any investigation of Henry Lucas or any investigation into the death of Librada Apodaca?
A. No, sir, I personally did not.
Q. Has anything else been sent to them since this report>
A. The January 7th?
Q. Yes. Since these items were sent in June of ’85 and since the - - or since the report was prepared in January of ’86, have any requests or any evidence been submitted to the Department of Public Safety laboratory in Austin?
A. No, sir, not to my knowledge.
Q. To your knowledge, is this the only report in the possession of the police department or the district attorney’s office from the Department of Public Safety laboratory in Austin regarding this case?
A. As far as I know, yes, sir.
MR. PONTON: We will offer Defense 2 at this time.
MR. MOODY: What?
MR. PONTON: I’ll offer Defense 2 at this time.
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MR. MOODY: No objection for the purpose of this hearing.
THE COURT: All right, sir. Are you going to use - -
MR. PONTON: I’m going to read from this.
THE COURT: I have a question.
MR. PONTON: Yes, Your Honor?
THE COURT: I understood that Defense 1 and Defense 2 are the same?
MR. PONTON: No, they are two different reports, Your Honor. May I approach the bench?
THE COURT: That’s fine. It’s clarified.
MR. PONTON: Two different reports.
Q. (BY MR. PONTON): Now, Mr. Perez, when were - - this report that the secretor type found in the semen in the victim’s panties is dated January 7th of 1986. Is that correct?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. Is that the first time you knew or anyone in the El Paso Police Department knew what that blood and secretor type was?
A. I think that someone had called, if I recall, but I don’t remember exactly who it was. But someone had told us it was a Doug Roubae, but I don’t recall and I don’t have nothing to that effect other than
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what this report here indicates? I’m just trying to - -
Q. You didn’t make - -
A. I’m trying to search my memory regarding that question, and I recall someone telling me that it was a Doug Roubae but exactly who it was and what position he was in, I don’t recall.
Q. Well, would this have been a call from a man on the street or would it have been a call from somebody at the Department of Public Safety laboratory?
A. It would have to be from some technician, some expert, but I just - -
Q. At the laboratory here in El Paso or in - - at the laboratory in Austin?
A. I don’t recall.
Q. And you don’t think that’s significant information as your role as an investigator in this case to make notes of the laboratory results from the semen found on the victim’s panties?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You think it’s important.
A. Yes, sir, it is.
Q. Did you think it was important enough to make a note of that at the time you received that information from the laboratory technician?
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I’m sure it’s important, but I just don’t recall what I did with that information.
Q. Do you think you made a note of it?
A. I don’t remember. I don’t recall.
Q. You don’t recall whether you made a note of it or not?
A. I don’t remember the date or when I received it. I have no independent knowledge of that, no sir.
Q. If you have no knowledge of that, sir, how could you make use of that information in your investigation into the death of Librada Apodaca?
A. Well, what I mean by that is that the suspects and subjects that were being focused on in the information, we did not go into their blood group and their blood type and semen type as each subject and suspect developed. It would have been too time consuming to get the analysis back, and we had well over between two and three hundred suspects at least in this case and the time just would not permit that. We didn’t have the resources to go into
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That thorough at that stage of the investigation.
Q. Well, let me ask you this, Detective. You are not an expert into this type of forensic analysis, are you?
A. No, sir, I’m not.
Q. But you have some knowledge about blood group typings, do you not, in your experience as a detective in the homicide division of the El Paso Police Department?
A. Some knowledge, not a whole lot.
Q. Is this your first murder case?
A. No, sir.
Q. It’s not? How many murder cases have you worked on?
A. Not very many, three or four.
Q. Hadn’t you testified earlier in a deposition that you had only worked on one other murder case other than this one and that was just to ask some questions of a victim for somebody from California - - asked questions for detectives from California regarding a California murder?
A. No. I interviewed a witness here in El Paso who turned out to be a subject for the authorities in California. That would have been the case prior to this case. And I thought your question was if I had
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Worked very many murders, and, no, it’s three or four.
Q. And that was the only case you worked prior to this one?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You have worked two since this one?
A. Something like that, yes, sir.
Q. My question still remains, Detective Perez, that as to blood group typings, do you know that everybody in this room and everybody alive has a certain blood group typings from their blood in their body?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And that that can be categorized by certain categories like blood group A, blood group B and blood group O. Are you aware of that?
A. Yes, sir, I have a working knowledge.
Q. Do you have a working knowledge that there is something known as a secretor type that is found in the blood found on semen?
A. I have - - Yes.
Q. And that’s essentially another blood group typing. Are you familiar with that?
A. Very, very little, yes, sir.
Q. Okay. If in your role as an investigator in a case if you find a blood spot on the floor of a
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crime scene that is blood group A and you think that blood spot comes from the suspect and you have a suspect who has a blood spot comes from the suspect and you have a suspect who had blood group B, would you clear that suspect as not being involved or would you clear that suspect as not being involved or would you confirm him as possibly being involved based upon that analysis?
Well, you would clear him for the time being. You wouldn’t concentrate as much on that individual, no.
Q. In other word, do you have enough knowledge of this type of blood group typing to know if you ha f a blood group A at the crime scene and the suspect has a different blood group it’s probable that he couldn’t have committed that crime?
A. Well, unless - -
Q. Given the information, not given other information, would that be correct?
A. Well, if there is only one subject, one victim, yes.
Q. Now, what was Librada Apodaca’s blood type, Detective Perez?
A. I don’t believe that they obtained the blood information from her.
Q. Did - - The El Paso Police Department never found out what blood type of the victim was in
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this case?
I’m reading the report now. According to this report, no, sir.
Q. And these two reports that I have shown you as Defense Exhibits 1 and 2 are the only two laboratory reports you have testified that you received - - or the El Paso Police Department had received in the investigation of this case. Is that correct?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. Now, I believe you testified that you sent some bed sheets to the DPS laboratory in Austin. Is that correct?
A. No, no. I talked to our identification and records and had them send the stuff or items we had here in El Paso to the lab in Austin so as to maintain the chain of custody of the chain of control.
Q. But you caused to have bed sheets sent to Austin. Is that correct?
A. The items that were here in El Paso to Austin, yes, that’s correct.
Q. Among those items, Detective, was among those items the bed sheets found in the bedroom of Librada Apodaca from the crime scene on May 28th, 1983
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Yes.
Q. Okay. Was blood on those bed sheets?
A. yes, sir.
Q. There was great deal of blood on those bed sheets, was there not?
A. I wouldn’t say a great deal. Yes, there was a substantial amount, but not a great deal.
Q. Were they not soaked in blood?
A. No, not really soaked.
Q. What blood was found on those bed sheets? Was it the victim’s blood?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. How do you know that?
A. Unless the subject hurt himself there.
Q. How do you know scientifically, Detective, that the blood found on her bed sheets was hers? Do you know her blood?
A. No, sir.
Q. Do you know the type of the blood found on the bed sheets?
A. No, sir.
Q. So you don’t really know whose blood that was, do you?
A. That’s correct.
Q. You don’t know whether somebody else was
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killed there and carried off, do you?
A.I think that the disarray of the room it would be highly unlikely if somebody else had been killed there.
Q. But did you not have available to you in your investigation of this case the ability to find out the blood type found on those sheets?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And did you not have available to you in your investigation of this case the availability to find out the blood type of the victim?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You never did that, did you?
A. Apparently it wasn’t done?
Q. By you are or anyone else in the El Paso Police Department?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. Now, what the El Paso Police Department did find out, Detective Perez, was that Geovany Valenzuela Chavez had blood group type A secretor blood based upon the report in Defense Exhibit 1. Is that correct?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. And what the El Paso Police Department also found out that the victim’s panties contained
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blood group substance A secretor blood based upon the Department of Public Safety lab report dated January 7th, 1986. Is that correct?
Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. Those are the same, are they not?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What the El Paso Police Department also found out was the Henry Lucas, the citizen accused here, has A nonsecretor blood. Is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, did that - - is that anything significant to you in your role as a lead investigator into the murder of Librada Apodaca?
A. Well, if I can refer to this report from the Texas Department of Public Safety dated January the 7th, it also states that without having a blood specimen from the victim, no conclusions can be made as to the possible blood group of the semen donor. My understanding is that there can be several thousands of people that would have a certain blood group, yes, that’s correct.
Q. Well, the thing is, there are several thousands of people who have blood group A secretor. Is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
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Q. But there’s also several thousands of people who have A nonsecretor. Is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And never the twain shall meet. You are either one or the other. Isn’t that correct?
A. I don’t know. I don’t know if they would change or not.
Q. Are you familiar, Detective, with what is known as antigen testing of blood group types?
A. No, sir.
Q. Are you familiar that that is a way of testing blood group types more specifically than using the A, B, O test?
A. No, sir.
Q. And are you familiar with the fact that if that is done, the possible universe of suspects from a potential blood group can be narrowed significantly?
A. No, sir.
Q. In other words, what I’m saying, that was not done in this case, was it, the antigen testing of the blood found on the bed sheet?
A. As far as I know, no, sir.
Q. Or the antigen testing of Geovany Chavez’ blood?
A. Was it done?
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Q. Yes.
A. According to this report, it was.
Q. No, antigen testing. It’s a more specific type of blood testing than A, B, O testing, Detective.
A. The report does not indicate that.
Q. Was it ever requested by you that antigen testing be done of the blood of Geovany Chavez?
A. No.
Q. Or that antigen testing be done of the sperm sample found on the victim’s panties?
A. No, sir.
Q. Are you aware that if that had been done, a much more precise match would have been made potentially between the suspect Geovany Chavez, who confessed to the murder of Librada Apodaca, and the semen found on her panties?
A. If I understand your question correctly, you are asking why Geovany was eliminated or set aside on investigation. Is that correct?
Q. No, no, Detective. My question is: Are you aware that if that type of antigen testing had been done on Geovany Chavez’ blood and semen type that it could have given the El Paso Police Department a very precise match or a very precise rejection as to whether or not Geovany Chavez could have committed
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this murder?
MR. MOODY: Your Honor, I am going to object. The witness has already stated he doesn’t know anything about antigen testing of either blood or semen. He’s not an expert in the field and that’s why he doesn’t know, sir.
THE COURT: Mr. Moody, I’m going to overrule your objection. Go ahead.
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) That was not done in this case, was it, the antigen testing?
A. No, it was not.
Q. Why was Geovany Chavez’ blood group and semen tested in January of 1986 by the El Paso Police Department?
A. That was in instructions from the district attorney’s office.
Q. From which member of the district attorney’s office?
A. I believe it was Mr. Bill Moody.
Q. And why did Mr. Bill Moody tell you that he wanted the blood and semen of Geovany Chavez, the man who had previously confessed to killing Librada Apodaca, tested in January of this year?
A. He wanted to see what his blood group was.
Q. Why? Did he tell you any reason why he
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wanted the blood group tested?
Just to see what it was.
Q. But did he tell you why he wanted to see what it was?
A. I don’t recall.
Q. You don’t recall?
A. No.
Q. Did you make any notes of that request by Mr. Bill Moody?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did you make any supplement regarding what you had done upon Mr. Bill Moody’s request?
A. I may have made a supplement, but - -
Q. If you did, may we please see it?
A. Apparently I didn’t make a supplement on that.
Q. You did not?
A. Apparently not, no, sir.
Q. You did not consider a request to have a person - - a person’s blood typed, a person who had confessed to this crime significant enough to make a supplement?
A. No, sir.
Q. After you received that request, what did you do next? Did you go to Juarez to see Geovany
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Chavez?
Yes, sir.
Q. Did you do anything else regarding that request?
A. Only we obtained a blood and semen sample.
Q. From the suspect Geovany Chavez?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. What did you do with the blood and semen sample?
A. We took it to Mr. Pena at the Texas Department of Public Safety lab.
Q. Do you have a supplement of your taking it to Fernie Pena at the DPS lab?
A. I don’t think so.
Q. Do you have a supplement on your trip to Juarez to get the blood and semen from Geovany Chavez?
A. No, sir.
Q. You don’t?
A. No, sir.
Q. What documents do you have to reflect the chain of custody of that blood and semen sample that you took from the suspect Geovany Chavez?
A. It was in my possession the whole time.
Q. Did you make a supplement regarding the fact you had gone to Juarez and gotten the semen and the
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blood and that you had taken that to the DPS lab so that you would have a document in your file to reflect that the chain of custody was unbroken?
No, sir.
Q. You do not?
A. No, sir, not that I recall.
Q. Where is the blood and semen sample now, to your knowledge?
A. To my knowledge, it’s with Mr. Pena.
Q. Do you know or are you guessing?
A. I don’t know because I left it with Mr. Pena.
Q. Have you seen any other documents regarding the chain of custody of that sample?
A. Just the report that he sent.
Q. And that’s the report that is Defense Exhibit 1 in this case. Is that correct?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. And you made no supplement whatsoever regarding that whole request or that trip to Juarez or taking that to the DPS lab or anything of that nature, did you?
A. That’s correct.
Q. Did you ever talk to Fernando Pena on the telephone regarding his findings upon this request?
A. I may have called him, but I couldn’t tell
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you when and what the circumstances were. I don’t recall.
Q. Do you recall if Fernando Pena gave you any results over the telephone about his lab test on the blood and semen from Geovany Chavez?
A. No, sir, I don’t recall.
Q. You don’t recall?
A. No, sir.
Q. Do you think he may have told you that he had gotten any results?
A. I don’t recall.
Q. You don’t recall?
A. No, sir.
Q. You don’t recall whether or not you received lab results from a suspect in a murder investigation?
A. You asked if I had received the results over the phone.
Q. Yes, I did.
A. I don’t recall. I don’t know if I went in person or I used the phone. I don’t recall, or if I saw Mr. Pena here in the courtroom.
Q. Sir, do you consider the findings from a Department of Public Safety laboratory regarding a murder suspect important evidence in a murder investigation?
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Important to an extent, yes.
Q. Important enough to either point out somebody as having committed - - possibly committed a crime or excluding him; that’s not important evidence to you?
A. It’s not the only factor that was considered, no.
Q. Let me ask you this. Is that evidence important enough to write down when you receive those kinds of results from somebody?
A. If it relates to the offense and if it can be corroborated, yes.
Q. Do you consider laboratory reports regarding a suspect relating to an offense?
A. Well, you asked if he was a suspect, and prior to that, that suspect had been eliminated from the investigation. Things that he had said were not corroborated, could not be corroborated.
Q. Is that the only reason he was excluded?
A. No, sir.
Q. Why else was he excluded?
A. Well, of course, we ran his fingerprint file to see if his fingerprints matched at the scene. Q. And did they?
A. No, sir.
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Q. And where is that fingerprint - - where is that record where the fingerprint card that you used to compare Geovany Chavez’ fingerprints with those found at the crime scene?
A. I would imagine it’s up in our identification and records section.
Q. Will that be made available to the attorneys for the defense of Henry Lee Lucas if we want to make that independent comparison?
A. Sure
MR. MOODY: Your Honor, you know, at a previous disposition, we have already covered this matter. Detective Bailon testified that he was the one that went over to Juarez, got the fingerprint cards, had the tests run here and then took the fingerprint cards back to Juarez, Mexico. That was the - - And so, I mean, they already know that’s where they are at.
THE COURT: Mr. Moody, why in the world would they take them back to Mexico? Why wouldn’t we keep them here?
MR. MOODY: They were the original cards of the Juarez police. They did not belong to the El Paso Police Department.
THE COURT: So we didn’t even have them make a copy of
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them?
MR. MOODY: I don’t know if we made a copy, but they were taken back.
MR. PONTON: I have been told, Your Honor - -
MR. MOODY: That was done not just with him but with many of the - - Wasn’t that true with many of the Juarez people that they questioned on prints, that they take those prints and that was a matter they do it, not in just this case but all cases, they take them over, they borrow them, they look at them and then they take them back? That’s what Mr. Bailon said, I believe, at the deposition, isn’t it, Mr. Ponton?
MR. PONTON: He testified he did that, but I wanted to tell the Court that the reason I asked this witness that is because Art Orozco from the El Paso Police Department identifications and records division told our independent fingerprint expert that they do not have Geovany Chavez’ fingerprints here within the police department, period. So that’s why we have been trying to out. That’s why Detective Bailon stated he thought they had been returned to Juarez.
It seems to me that since we - - that his fingerprints had previously been compared, there may
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Be a copy of it. That’s why I was asking this witness that, Mr. Moody.
THE COURT: Well, I’m going to allow you to go ahead and ask the questions. Of course, you-all have heard this. The attorneys have heard it, evidently on a deposition, but no one else has heard it. We don’t know - - I don’t know what - -
MR. MOODY: It’s not a surprise to the defense.
THE COURT: I don’t know what’s going on. None of us are in the El Paso Police Department as detectives, but I would like to hear it. It seems a little bit strange to me.
MR. MOODY: Your Honor, I was not objecting to the questioning. I was just trying to explain to the Court it looked like maybe that we had the prints and we were going to not give them to them when that already know that we don’t have those prints.
THE COURT: Well, I’m going to let him ask the questions. I don’t understand, really, why we don’t have the print, to be honest with you, but that’s - - maybe they will develop that. Maybe what has been said here answers the question.
MR. MOODY: All right.
Q. (BY MR. PONTON): Detective Perez, Geovany
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Chavez had an El Paso Police Department number, did he not?
I think he did, but I’m not sure what it was.
Q. Do you know what name that El Paso Police Department number was under?
A. No, sir, I sure don’t.
Q. Was that under alias name?
A. More than likely.
Q. Was it in your report?
A. I don’t know.
Q. Will you please look?
A. Through these on Geovany?
Q. We, let me make it clear here, Detective.
THE COURT: I’m going to take a five-minute recess. We are not going to go anywhere while he looks in his report to see of he can find that. I’ll be right back. I’m not going to be gone long. Look through there and see if you can find the information.
(A recess was taken.)
THE COURT: Let me ask a question. We have a bar association luncheon and we have to leave here at a quarter to 12:00. Do you-all want to recess and come back at 1:30 or do you want to go on for, say, ten minutes and then recess? I’ll do whatever you
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Would like. I just want to let you know that we are in a position that we are going to have to recess, anyway, in a few minutes.
MR. PONTON: Has he found any supplements regarding that?
MR. MOODY: No, he hasn’t. He has not found it yet.
MR. PONTON: Since he has not found the supplement yet, Your Honor, it might be better to wait.
THE COURT: Well, let’s see.
MR. PONTON: Whatever Your Honor wishes.
THE COURT: Officer Perez, if you don’t mind, if you would try to find those things for him during the lunch hour, would you please be back here at 1:30?
1:30.
(A lunch recess was taken)
THE COURT: Please be seated, ladies and gentlemen.
THE COURT: All right, Mr. Ponton, you may continue, sir.
MR. PONTON: Thank you, Your Honor.
Q. (BY MR. PONTON): Before we broke for lunch,
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Detective, you were - - it seems like we were discussing some of the reports, the telephonic reports you had gotten from the DPS and some of the other reports that you had gotten, and it’s my recollection that you had testified that you had only received two reports from the Department of Public Safety, which had been marked as Defense Exhibits 1 and 2, one in June of 1985 and one in January of 1986. Is that correct?
Yes, that’s correct.
Q. You had testified that you had gotten some telephonic results from the Department of Public Safety lab on at least two other occasions and make no notes or supplements regarding that. Is that correct?
A. I believe that I stated that I received a phone call from some person, I can’t recall who that person was, that gave that information.
Q. Okay. And do you recall if that was a phone call from El Paso or Austin?
A. No, it would have been from El Paso. I never talked to anyone from Austin.
Q. Okay. Now, do you recall when the evidence from the crime scene of Librada Apodaca was first turned over to the Department of Public Safety?
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If I recall correctly, some evidence was sent immediately after the crime. However, in going back to the records, I submitted some other, I would imagine the majority of the evidence, on September the 24th, 1984, I believe.
Q. All right.
A. I took it to the DPS lab here in El Paso.
Q. And do you know what evidence you took to them right after the crime?
A. No, sir, I do not.
Q. Do you have a supplement to reflect what evidence you took to them right after the crime?
A. It probably would be with the case, if there is something on it.
Q. May I approach the witness, Your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes, sir.
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) : I’m going to show you a property receipt, Detective, just handed to me by Bill Moody that I’ll mark for identification purposes as Defense Exhibit 3. Can you identify that?
(Defendant’s Exhibit marked, D-3)
It’s a property receipt in which - - dated 5-31-83 with our case number received from Property Officer Scott. The item is the - - well, it’s one and it contains a plastic bag containing 3 pieces of
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tooth.
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) And the date on that once again was?
A. 5-31-83
Q. All right. Now, can you recall if there was any other evidence from the Librada Apodaca crime scene given to the DPS lab right about that time, right after the crime?
A. No, sir.
Q. Do you know if there are any other supplements or any other property receipts reflecting any other property given to the DPS lab about that time?
A. No, sir, I sure don’t.
Q. So you have no way of knowing what, of anything else, may have been given to the DPS lab at that time?
A. Yes, sir. I don’t recall at this time.
MR. PONTON: Defense Exhibit 3 I’ll tender at this time.
MR. MOODY: No objection for purpose of this hearing, Your Honor.
(Defendant’s Exhibit marked, D-4.)
Q. (BY MR. PONTON): Now I’m going to show you what I have marked for identification purposes as
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Defense Exhibit 4 and can you identify that?
It’s a property receipt, El Paso Police Department, items - - date is 9-24-84 with our case number. Time is 10:34 a.m. The items that I took out from our property office.
Q. Okay. And this is a two-page property receipt showing 21 items, 12 on one page and 9 on another. Is that correct?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct?
Q. And it shows they were received by who?
A. Myself.
Q. Is that your signature?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. On that page. Is that your signature on this page?
A. Yes, sir, it is.
Q. Is your badge number 254-D?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. These property items, could you just please read that list?
A. From the very beginning? All of them?
Q. Yeah, the 21 items, please.
A. One is number 6, within it - -
Q. Let me read them and you tell me of this is correct. The first is a cigarette butt.
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Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. The second one is a blue fitted bed sheet?
A. Yes, sir, it is.
Q. The third one is a blood-stained slip?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. The fourth one is one pair of blood-stained panties?
A. Yes, that’s correct.
Q. And the fifth one is a T-shirt type robe, pink and red?
A. Yes, that’s correct.
Q. And then the next six are plastic cups that contained - - the first two contained hair, the next one is a gold-colored medallion and the chain, and scalp cut, a fingernail cutting, scalp and fingernail cuttings. Is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. The second page here shows three plastic cups with hair from various parts of the victim’s body. Is that correct?
A. Yes, that’s correct.
Q. And then you have 13 test tubes with samples?
A. Yes, that’s correct.
Q. And then you have a sheet, two pillow cases, a white pillow case, scrapings from the living room
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floor and paper tissue. Is that correct?
Yes, sir.
Q. My question to you, Officer, is can you recall if there were any other property submitted to DPS from the crime scene other than what has been shown to you in Defense Exhibits 3 and 4?
A. No, that’s all I recall is just these items here.
Q. Why were these items from the crime scene not submitted to the DPS laboratory until 16 months after the crime occurred?
A. Well, probably a breakdown in communications between the original identification and records officer that made the scene and ourselves. And upon noticing the error, we removed those items from our property office and submitted them to our lab here in El Paso to be then sent to the lab in Austin.
Q. Didn’t you testify at the beginning of your direct testimony to Mr. Moody that you were in charge of this investigation?
A. Yes, that’s correct.
Q. So would you be the only one ultimately responsible for seeing that physical items from the scene are promptly analyzed by the appropriate laboratory?
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I guess in the light that I was the chief investigator it would be my responsibility. There is other officers assigned that have certain areas of responsibility. However, it is my ultimate responsibility to make sure that their assignments are carried out.
Q. What was your understanding of who was responsible for seeing that the physical items were analyzed?
A. It was my understanding that identification and records were to have sent all those items taken from the scene for analyzation.
Q. And did you ever follow up to see if those items were analyzed until September of 1984 16 months after the crime occurred?
A. Yes, that’s correct.
Q. My question is: Did you ever check to see whether those items were analyzed prior to September of 1984?
A. No.
Q. Okay. Now my next question to you, sir, if those items were submitted to the DPS lab in September of 1984 as reflected in Defense Exhibit 4, why is it that you didn’t get a report back from the DPS lab until January of 1986, another 16 months
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later, on those items which had been submitted?
I don’t know. All I can imagine is these items stayed at the DPS lab here in El Paso and had not been sent to the DPS lab in Austin.
Q. Oh, so you are telling this Court that these items that are reflected in this property receipt I just read from in Defense Exhibit 4 were submitted to El Paso but were, in fact, not analyzed here but were analyzed in Austin. Is that correct?
A. Well, I don’t know where they were analyzed. But from my understanding, they should have been sent or they were going to be sent to Austin.
Q. And this report from Austin is dated January 1986. Isn’t that correct?
A. Yes, that’s correct.
Q. So it took the El Paso Police Department 16 months to send the physical evidence to a laboratory. Is that your testimony?
A. Yes, that’s correct.
Q. And then it took that laboratory 16 months to analyze that evidence. Is that correct?
A. Yes, that’s correct.
Q. So that 32 months after the crime, you as the chief investigating officer finally had in your possession laboratory reports showing the blood type
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of the semen found on the victim’s panties, for instance. Is that correct?
Yes, that’s correct.
Q. And you were never able to check that against any suspects until January of 1986 when you got that report. Is that correct?
A. Yes, that’s correct.
Q. Did you ever request that any possible suspect’s blood or semen be compared with that found on the panties of the victim other than Geovany Valenzuela Chavez?
A. No. Well, I don’t know if we had requested - - Well, I didn’t no. I didn’t, no.
Q. Did anyone else in El Paso Police Department, to your knowledge?
A. It may have come from the district attorney’s office on the comparison of Henry Lee Lucas.
Q. That’s also in that report, isn’t it?
A. I believe so, yes.
Q. That Henry Lee Lucas’ blood and secretor type is different than that found on the semen found on the victim’s panties. Isn’t that correct?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. Other than that comparison between Henry,
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Which excludes my client, and the comparison of Geovany Valenzuela Chavez, which excluded him as a possible, was any other comparison done, to your knowledge?
No, not to my knowledge.
Q. Did you do a comparison on Ottis Toole?
A. On blood? I don’t know. Not to my knowledge. I don’t know.
Q. Did you do one on Richard Ramirez, also known as the Night Stalker?
A. The blood, no.
Q. The blood and semen?
A. Not to my knowledge, no.
Q. The only comparisons that your office did of possible suspects in this case was the fingerprints. Isn’t that correct?
A. Comparisons?
Q. Of physical evidence to evidence from suspects is the fingerprints. Isn’t that correct?
A. Yes. As far as physical evidence, yes.
Q. And your office went through a couple hundred of possible suspects comparing their fingerprints to the fingerprints found at the scene. Isn’t that correct?
A. Yes, that’s correct.
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Q. And your office released all of those persons as possible suspects because their fingerprints didn’t match those found at the scene. Isn’t that correct?
A. Well, no, not entirely. They were not incarcerated, if that was your question. They were eliminated for the time being. And the ones that had certain crimes, lived in a certain area close to the victim’s were scrutinized a little bit more and the whole - - well, it was a substantial amount of suspects that were interviewed as a result of that. And see, of course, checking on their whereabouts and the relationship to this particular area. So they are not just submitted for comparisons and left at that, no.
Q. My question to you, however, Detective, is that all of these suspects that you and the rest of the members of the police department came up with, which were primarily people who lived in the area or people who committed crimes in the area or people - - suspicious type people who lived in Juarez, that’s essentially the people you-all were looking at. Isn’t that correct?
A. Not only those people, but we also checked around the country, also.
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Q. But isn’t it correct, Detective, that the vast majority of the persons you checked were in those three groups that I just told you, people who live in the area, people who committed burglaries or violent crimes in the area and people who were suspicious who lived in Juarez across the river from Ysleta. Isn’t that correct?
A. I guess that would be the majority. There was other groups that we had included, also.
Q. Are members of the family one of those other groups?
A. We had - - We interviewed one boy. I don’t recall his age. He was a family member.
Q. Do you recall his name?
A. No. He was a stepgrandson, I believe. And then, of course, the subject was Robert Avalos.
Q. And he was a family member, too, wasn’t he?
A. Yes, that’s correct.
Q. He was interviewed about this?
A. Yes, that’s correct.
Q. I want to get back to that last question that you never really answered, Detective, and that’s that the vast - - that is, that all of these people that you have testified that you-all looked at as being suspects in this crime were ultimately released
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From being suspects in this crime because their fingerprints didn’t match those at the crime scene. Isn’t that correct?
No, that’s not correct.
Q. Are you telling this Court that those two to three hundred possible suspects are still suspects in this case?
A. No, that’s not correct, either. We had - - That list is narrowed down to 15 to 20. There was periodic investigation done on those individuals.
Q. Give me the names of the suspects’ fingerprints that were found at the scene, Detective.
A. There is none.
Q. Does that include my client, Henry Lucas?
A. Yes, that’s correct.
Q. His fingerprints were not found at the scene, were they?
A. No, they were not.
Q. What about the fingerprints of any family member suspects? Were those found at the crime scene?
A. There was, I believe, one fingerprint.
Q. Who was that of?
A. Dawn Russell.
Q. And that was found on an item at the crime scene that was in a particular place, wasn’t it, that
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fingerprint?
It was - - I believe it was on the floor, but I’m not sure. In one of the bedrooms on the floor, if I’m correct. I’m trying to - - I don’t recall exactly which bedroom it was in.
Q. Wasn’t that on a ceramic item found on the floor of the empty bedroom near the window what was opened and was used possibly to gain entry to the house?
A. It could have been, yes, sir.
Q. It could have been?
A. Where you said it was found. I don’t recall exactly.
Q. You weren’t in charge of this investigation?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. And you didn’t know where the physical evidence was in the house of Librada Apodaca?
A. Well, the thing is, it’s been a long time. I just don’t recall at this time.
Q. But my problem is this. Haven’t you been reviewing this case for the last two or three weeks, Detective Perez?
A. Not on a daily basis, no.
Q. Weren’t you in deposition on three different days with Ms. Sipes and myself two weeks ago?
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Yes, that’s correct.
Q. And prior to that deposition, did you not bring into that - - did you not review some of your materials that you generated during the course of your investigation?
A. Yes, that’s correct.
Q. And didn’t you bring, in response to our subpoena duces tecum, to that deposition a box about the size of this one by Mr. Moody full of all the documents you worked on in this case?
A. Yes, that’s correct.
Q. That included your personal notebooks that had your notes and records of this case?
A. Yes, that’s correct.
Q. And didn’t you review those materials prior to that deposition?
A. Not every single item, no, sir.
Q. Didn’t you review those items in between days of the deposition so you would be ready to answer the questions propounded to you by the defense lawyers the next day?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Did you review any materials prior to testifying here today?
A. Just a few reports, yes.
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Q. Well, I’m still - - so you are telling this Court that you don’t remember where some of those physical items were at the crime scene. Is that correct?
A. No. I don’t recall exactly which bedroom that ceramic figurine was at with the fingerprint or the latent print of Dawn Russell.
Q. Can you recall which window was unlocked or locked on the house?
A. If I recall correctly, the middle bedroom is the one that had the windows - - safety latches unlatched.
Q. Yes. Can you recall whether the front door was locked or unlocked?
A. If I recall correctly, the front door was locked and the screen door was unlocked.
Q. Can you recall whether it had a burglar alarm on it?
A. There was a burglar alarm with a bell system set up on the doorway that leads down the hallway into the kitchen, which is the door that faces on the western portion of the residence.
Q. So did the front door have a burglar alarm attached to it or was it unattached?
A. I don’t recall a burglar alarm on the front
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door. I recall there was one on the side door that faces the western portion, yes.
Q. Isn’t it true, Detective Perez, that that front door had the same burglar alarm setup that the side door had but that it was unattached, that it’s one of those little pull type burglar alarms that you just attach a little chain to the door so if it opens up it sounds the bell so to speak, but the front door wasn’t hooked up? Isn’t that correct?
A. I don’t recall that, no, sir.
Q. Now, do you recall that there was that kind of setup on the kitchen door or the side door?
A. I remember - - On the door I just remember seeing the bell and then the electrical wires running to the contact above the bell - - I mean, the door, but I don’t recall if - - If I recall correctly, upon opening the door you would - - two contacts would come apart which would set off the alarm. But I really didn’t go and observe it that closely, no.
Q. You don’t remember opening that kitchen door to see if that burglar alarm worked while at the crime scene and that burglar alarm was off?
A. No, I did not.
Q. You were not there when it happened?
A. No, sir.
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Q. Now - -
MR. PONTON: may I approach the witness, Your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
Q. (BY MR. PONTON): This is a file from - - of fingerprint suspect eliminations. I won’t introduce this into evidence, but this has - -it must be close to 100 pages of requests for fingerprint comparisons to be made of possible suspects in this case against the crime scene fingerprints. Is that correct?
A. Yes, that’s correct.
Q. Would you please look through that file and just be able to tell the Court what I’m saying is correct, that that contains approximately 50 or 100 pages of fingerprint suspect eliminations?
A. Yes, that’s correct.
Q. And all of those people listed in this report were eliminated as suspects because their fingerprints weren’t found there. Is that correct?
A. That’s not entirely correct.
Q. Well, is it true that every person listed in this file does not have fingerprints that were found at the crime scene, to your knowledge?
A. Yes, to my knowledge.
Q. Okay. And that includes this page. Could
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you please tell the Court whose fingerprints were compared there?
Henry Lee Lucas.
Q. And please read the Court that paragraph.
A. The whole paragraph?
Q. Yes, please.
A. “Upon request of Senior Detective B. Perez, the undersigned compared the latent lifts in this case with the known prints of Henry Lee Lucas. The results of the comparisons were negative. No identification had been ascertained at this time. All the latent lifts were refiled,” and that’s identification Officer Arturo Orozco, badge number 359, in the print section.
Q. What date was that report made?
A. It was supplement dated 9-18-84 at 3:00p.m.
Q. Are you telling the Court that there are still suspects in this file that are active suspects in this case but whose fingerprints have been eliminated as not having been found at the scene?
A. No, no. Active suspects now?
Q. Yes.
A. I don’t think so.
Q. Well you just told me in response to my question that just because the people were eliminated
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because their fingerprints weren’t at the scene doesn’t mean they were eliminated as suspects. Isn’t that true?
If I heard you correctly, you asked me if we eliminated these suspects solely based on the fact that we had compared their fingerprints and thus they were eliminated. No, that is not correct.
There were some suspects here that we interviewed. There are some that we pulled out of county jail, as such. But not every single one here is solely eliminated based on the fingerprint comparison.
Q. How many active suspects do you have in this case now, besides Henry Lee Lucas?
A. Well, we have at least one unknown.
Q. Why is that? A. Haven’t been able to establish his identity.
Q. No. Excuse me, Detective. Why does the El Paso Police Department still have an unknown suspect in the case of the murder of Librada Apodaca?
A. I can’t - - Well, I personally feel there is another suspect involved in this case.
Q. Okay. And who do you think that other
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person or persons are, is or are?
I believe - - I personally believe that other suspect was a white male approximately the same age, perhaps a little bit skinnier.
Q. Same age as who?
A. As Henry Lucas. And this individual showed up in San Jon, New Mexico, a couple days after this incident, this murder here in El Paso. And he was traveling - - he was observed coming out of the vehicle that had been left disables at the roadside and which Henry had been driving.
Both of them entered the truck stop- - if I’m correct, that’s the Red X Truck Stop in San Jon, New Mexico. Both entered the restaurant and both were inside the restaurant or truck stop for a couple of hours. However, the ladies cannot make any type of positive identification on that other suspect in that if they could to be able to locate that suspect, to be able to interview that suspect, also.
Q. Are there any suspects in this case who are now dead?
A. I don’t understand your question.
Q. My question is: Did the police department have any active suspects in this case who were active suspects until they died?
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No. Not active.
Q. Or not - - Unactive possible suspects. I don’t know if I used the same terminology as the police department, but were there any suspects of any type that were being looked at by the police department who are now dead?
A. Yes.
Q. Who are those suspects?
A. That’s - - We have Geovany Chavez Valenzuela and we had - - Let me see if I can find it in my notes.
Q. Please look, Detective.
A. I think it’s in that other notebook.
MR PONTON: May the witness approach the files, Your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes
And Ruben Santano Ogas.
Q. Who is Ruben Santano Ogas?
A. He’s also a - - Well, he was a drug addict that lived at - - I believe the correct address is close to 129 Ceres Street. And of course - - In fact, if I recall correctly, he died of an overdose.
Q. Do you know when he died?
A. No, sir, I sure don’t.
Q. Do you know where 129 Ceres is in relation to 144 Irma?
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If I recall correctly, it’s a side street that runs, I believe it’s north and south, which would be east of that location past Candelaria Street. Candelaria is the first paved street east of Irma and kind of curves behind as you go back over the bridge and back towards the east and it runs off the other street.
Q. So in other words, it would be the first street directly behind the house across the canal from the house. Is that correct?
A. No.
Q. It would be across Candelaria and across the canal.
A. It’s the other way.
Q. But if my recollection is correct, from what you are describing to me, Detective, that would be within approximately one block from this house. Is that correct?
A. No, I think it’s a little further than that. Two to three city blocks.
MR MOODY: Your Honor, at this time we would like to interpose an objection. These subjects might be very relevant to the - - to their deposition. They might have - - They might be very relevant to a trial jury on the merits of the case, but they are
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Not relevant to the issue of whether or not Henry Lucas voluntarily gave a confession, the oral confessions, the videotaped confessions to Detective Perez which is the purpose of these hearings, as I understood them.
THE COURT: Well, I agree with you, Mr. Moody. I think that that objection is well taken. Let’s - - How many more questions do you have in this area?
MR. PONTON: I don’t have too many more, Your Honor. I just believe that - -
THE COURT: Well, let’s finish them up.
MR. PONTON: Yes, Your Honor.
Q. (BY MR. PONTON): Why was he a suspect, please? Let’s try to finish this up, Detective Perez.
A. I have in my notes, “Check with mother.” Have a Rudy Casillas. And either himself or Ruben Santana Ogas live at 129 Ceres. I have on there, “Two Anglos.” And then, slash, “transients.”
Now, this - - I don’t have the date on my notes, but this would have been early on in the investigation based on this notebook the way I have it set up. And if I recall correctly, the information came in where these two individuals were seen with two Anglo transients or these two
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Individuals observed two Anglo transients in the immediate area of the canal or the ditch right behind the 144 Irma Place.
However, if I recall correctly, Rudy Casillas left the El Paso area. I tried talking to his mother, Luisa, tried to get ahold of Ogas, and I was unsuccessful as far as being able to talk to him, interview them regarding that information that had come in. It could never be substantiated.
MR. PONTON: May I approach the witness, Your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
Q. (BY MR. PONTON): This notebook you are referring to, Detective, you have two notebooks here. Are these the notebooks you used to take notes down in the investigation of the death of Librada Apodaca?
A. No, no. It’s notes where I keep my notes on my notebook. However, I have other cases in these.
Q. I see you have certain items marked in yellow here. Are these, the highlighted parts, relevant to the Apodaca case?
A. No, sir. This case is concerning the kidnapping case.
Q. I want to go on to other matters because of the Court’s ruling.
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Let me ask you this, Detective. Would you be willing to sit down with me this afternoon to go over some of these matters that we have been talking about so we won’t be doing it in court and taking up the Judge’s time so that you can discuss with me some of these other suspects that you investigated in this case? Would you have any problem with that?
No.
Q. Okay
THE COURT: Is there any problem with that, Mr. Moody?
MR. MOODY: No, Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. Let’s do it.
Q. (BY MR. PONTON): Now, Detective Perez, that fingerprint repot said your office first compared Henry Lucas’ fingerprints to those found at the crime scene on September 19th, 1984. Please tell this Court when Henry Lucas first became a suspect in this death.
A. It was September the 19th, 1984.
Q. Okay. Now, that was the day that you went to Sierra Blanca with Jimmy Apodaca. Its’t that correct?
A. Yes, that’s correct.
Q. And at 3:00 in the afternoon when that
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report was being prepared, you and Jimmy Apodaca had just arrived in Sierra Blanca. Isn’t that correct?
Yes, that’s correct.
Q. And I believe you testified yesterday on direct examination to Mr. Moody that it was approximately 3:00 or 3:15 that you arrived in Sierra Blanca?
A. Yes, that’s correct.
Q. And that you started interviewing Henry Lucas approximately 4:15. Is that correct?
A. Yes, that’s correct.
Q. What did you do for an hour in Sierra Blanca between 3:15 and 4:15?
A. We were just there in their building, their county jail annex or administrative offices, whatever.
Q. Who was there present with you and Jimmy Apodaca?
A. It was a lady that was there, a deputy and there was a temporary sheriff, I believe. I think the sheriff there had been recently removed or something like that. But I don’t recall their names.
Q. Do you recall was the lady there a deputy or was she a jailer or was she - - did she have any official title or job? Do you recall?
A. No, I don’t recall.
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Q. I mean, was she an inmate?
A. No, no.
Q. Was she somebody’s friend?
A. I believe she was the wife of the temporary sheriff, but she was - - she was a jailer or a matron or dispatcher or some official capacity there.
Q. Who else was there? Was Clayton Smith there?
A. No, not until afterwards.
Q. After what? After the confession?
A. No, after they brought Henry in.
Q. Okay. Was Clayton smith at the jail when you and Jimmy Apodaca arrived at the jail?
A. No, I don’t recall that.
Q. Who else was present there in the anteroom of the jail while you and Jimmy Apodaca were waiting for an hour or so to see Henry Lucas besides the sheriff’s wife? Who else was there?
A. There was another temporary sheriff, but - -
Q. Is that the only persons who were present there for that hour, to your - -
A. To the best of my knowledge, yes.
Q. Now, when you first began to talk to Henry Lucas, I believe you testified that was about 4:15. Is that correct?
A. I believe it was 4:40 p.m.
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Q. 4:40 p.m., okay. And where did you and Jimmy Apodaca begin to interrogate Henry Lucas at 4:40 p.m., where, physically, at the jail?
A. We interviewed Henry in an office area that had a door to another conference room. And the conference room was right adjacent to that little office where, I guess it was, the dispatcher or people from there. And we were in one room that was rectangular in shape, just ourselves.
Q. How large was the room?
A. Oh, if I had to recall correctly, it was 20, 30 feet in width, maybe 50, 60 feet in length.
Q. So it was a very large room?
A. Yes, that’s right.
Q. Who was present there when you were interrogating Henry Lucas?
A. When we interviewed Henry, it was myself and Jimmy Apodaca, Sergeant Apodaca.
Q. Was anyone else in that very large room besides you and Henry Lucas and Jimmy Apodaca?
A. No.
Q. You said that Clayton Smith came in when Henry came in. Where did he come in from?
A. I think they had come from Monahans, nut I’m not really sure.
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Q. Yeah, but I’m talking about while you-all were there waiting, did Clayton Smith come into the jail sometime that afternoon?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. And approximately what time did you first see Clayton Smith that afternoon in Sierra Blanca?
A. Just prior to the interview.
Q. And did Clayton Smith walk into that 20-by-60 room with Henry Lucas?
A. No.
Q. Did he come into that room about the same time as Henry Lucas?
A. Into our interview room?
Q. Yes.
A. It was just myself, Sergeant Apodaca and Henry.
Q. Right. But before the interview began, Detective, did Clayton Smith come into that room about the time Henry Lucas came in?
A. I don’t recall that. I don’t think so, but I don’t recall.
Q. What room in that jail did you see Clayton Smith in right before your interview began with Henry Lucas?
A. It’s like a conference room. As you come
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straight into the building, you go into an open area. They have a large table there and I call it a conference room. And that’s where I saw Clayton and some other rangers. I don’t recall their names.
Q. And had Clayton Smith been in that conference room during that hour or so that you were waiting to see Henry Lucas?
A. No, I don’t recall that.
Q. Do you recall where he was?
A. I thought he was with Henry.
Q. Okay. Would that have been in the conference room or in the jail?
A. No, no. They were out on some site or - - They were not there in the building itself.
Q. Okay.
A. We were waiting for them. And then somewhere around that time is when they arrived.
Q. I understand it now. So in other words, Henry Lucas and Clayton Smith and other persons were out somewhere away from the jail?
A. Yes, that’s correct.
Q. Do you know how long they were out away from the jail that day before they arrived back to where you could interview Henry?
A. No, I don’t.
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Q. Had you ever talked to Clayton Smith before the afternoon of September 19th, 1984?
A. No.
Q. That afternoon in Sierra Blanca was the very first time you had ever spoken to Clayton Smith?
A. Yes, that’s correct.
Q. Did you talk to Clayton Smith briefly when he and Henry Lucas came in?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you ask him how it went?
A. No.
Q. Did you ask him if Henry had cleared a case that afternoon?
A. I don’t think so. I think it was just small talk.
Q. Did you ask him how Henry had done?
A. I don’t think so. I don’t recall. But I don’t think so.
Q. Did you ask him if Henry had been able to help him out any?
A. No, I don’t think so.
Q. Well, what was Henry doing in Sierra Blanca, then, Detective?
A. Well, I thought he was coming in from Monahans or something, some other city.
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Q. What was the purpose of his visit?
A. I don’t know if he was going to go to trial or he was coming from trial or he was going to the site. I really didn’t ask.
Q. Didn’t you just testify a few minutes ago that you and Jimmy Apodaca were waiting at the jail because Henry Lucas was out at some site with Clayton Smith and other persons?
A. No. They were at a site, coming back, but I don’t know what they were doing.
Q. It wasn’t your understanding they were looking at some potential murder site to see if Henry Lucas would confess to that crime?
A. It could have been.
Q. That wasn’t your understanding that afternoon in Sierra Blanca, Detective Perez?
A. I don’t recall what they were doing there.
Q. You didn’t think Henry Lucas was out rabbit hunting with Clayton Smith, did you?
A. They don’t allow a gun.
Q. My point is, Detective, I’m not trying to be too sarcastic here, but the point is they were out there doing something and you didn’t find out what they were doing that afternoon while you and Jimmy Apodaca were cooling your heels for an hour and a
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half?
No.
Q. You weren’t curious?
A. No.
Q. You can’t recall what it was that they were doing when they got back?
A. When they got back?
Q. You can’t recall what it was they were doing that afternoon. Is that your testimony here today?
A. Yes, that’s correct.
Q. Who came in with Henry Lucas that afternoon besides Clayton Smith?
A. I think Buster Collins was one Texas Ranger, and I don’t recall the other, the other people. I didn’t know the other people.
Q. How many other people?
A. Maybe two. I really don’t recall.
Q. The - - One, two, three, four?
A. It was at least three or four, at least.
Q. Did you make any notes of those people who where there?
A. No.
Q. Sir?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Do you remember talking any with those
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officers regarding Henry Lucas having cleared a case in Sierra Blanca that afternoon.
I didn’t, no. I didn’t know they had a case in Sierra Blanca.
Q. Do - - How long was it after Henry Lucas arrived back from his trip out into the country you and Jimmy Apodaca started interviewing him? How long was he back at the jail before you started talking to him?
A. It was a few minutes, 15, 20 minutes. It wasn’t very long. Somewhere around that time span.
Q. Where was Henry Lucas for that 15 or 20 minutes?
A. Right there in the same conference room area.
Q. Was Clayton Smith there in that conference room area?
A. Yes.
Q. Was the sheriff there?
A. I believe he was still there, the temporary sheriff.
Q. And were any Hudspeth deputies, Hudspeth County deputies there?
A. I don’t think he had any. I don’t recall any.
Q. Now the - - who talked with Henry Lucas for
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that 15 or 20 minutes before you began your interview?
I don’t recall anyone in particular sitting down and just having a conversation with him. I don’t recall.
Q. Did you?
A. No.
Q. Were you introduced to Henry Lucas?
A. I think I was, but very briefly.
Q. Do you recall who introduced you to Henry Lee Lucas?
A. My guess would have been Clayton Smith.
Q. Was that the first time you’d ever met Henry Lee Lucas?
A. Yes.
Q. That made an impression on you, didn’t it, Detective? You had heard of Henry Lee Lucas before that day, hadn’t you?
A. Yes, I had.
Q. He’d gotten to be a pretty famous or infamous, hadn’t he, by that time?
A. Yeah, I guess. Not really, but - -
Q. Hadn’t you read newspaper articles about how he was confessing to murders across the country?
A. I read some articles, but it’s not a whole bunch.
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Q. Had you seen any DPS teletypes or criminal reports regarding Henry Lee Lucas prior to September 19th, 1984?
A. I think I saw one that Lieutenant Jerry Smith had in Odessa. And he had it was like chronological type reports, dates and stuff like that, and I glanced through that. It was quite lengthy, but I really didn’t read the whole report.
Q. Was this chronological report allegedly of the crimes that Henry Lucas said he was involved in?
A. Well, yeah, himself and Ottis Toole.
Q. And was this a report prepared by Jerry Smith or by the Department of Public Safety?
A. You know, I think it was a Department of Public Safety, but I’m not really sure.
Q. Was it prepared by the Lucas Task Force under the auspices of the Department of Public Safety?
A. It might have been, but I’m not certain.
Q. When was it that you looked at that, Detective?
A. That was the time we had gone to Odessa to interview a suspect.
Q. In what case?
A. The same case.
Q. In the Librada Apodaca case?
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Yes.
Q. And what month and what year was that that you went to Odessa to interview that suspect?
A. Well, that was in the summer of ’84.
Q. The summer of 1984?
A. The summer or - - I don’t recall the exact month, but it was in ’84.
What happened is that a witness had approached the Odessa Police Department and he thought he had information on a suspect that we were looking for in this case.
Q. Who was that witness?
A. I believe his name is Frank Aldeis.
Q. How do you spell that last name?
A. I think it’s A L D E I S.
Q. Did he live in that county or Odessa?
A. If I recall correctly, he lived in Odessa.
Q. What was the information that he provided?
A. Well, that they were looking for an individual named Ernie or Ernesto Rodriquez. And apparently Odessa PD had put out a flyer or anyway a photo or a picture had been shown around Odessa. And this person thought that he had seen this individual near Odessa.
Q. Do you have a copy of that flyer or that
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picture?
If I do, it’s in my files, somewhere in there.
Q. Would you be able to provide a copy of that to me later this afternoon after we break when we look at these other matters?
A. Yes.
Q. Thank you.
How long did you talk with Jerry Smith that summer of 1984 when you went to Odessa to interview this man?
Well, I didn’t really talk to Jerry that long. I talked mostly with the person, that witness. And I went into an interview room with that person and I talked to him. And Jimmy is the one that talked to Lieutenant Smith.
Q. Jimmy talked to Jerry Smith?
A. Yes, Jimmy Apodaca, Sergeant Apodaca.
Q. Sergeant Jimmy Apodaca was your partner in supervising this investigation into the death of Librada Apodaca, wasn’t he?
A. Yes. He was the supervisor, yes.
Q. He was your supervisor in this case?
A. Yes, he was.
Q. He is also the nephew of the victim, Librada
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Apodaca. Isn’t that correct.
Yes, that’s correct.
Q. While you were in Odessa talking with Ernesto Rodriquez, Jimmy Apodaca was talking with Jerry Smith?
A. No, I was talking to Frank Aldeis.
Q. Oh, Frank Aldeis. I’m sorry.
A. About Ernesto Rodriquez.
Q. And Frank Aldeis. While you were talking with Frank Aldeis was Jimmy Apodaca talking to Jerry Smith?
A. Yes, he was.
Q. Do you know how long Jimmy Apodaca has known Jerry Smith?
A. I think that was the first time he met him, but I’m not certain.
Q. Do you know if Jimmy Apodaca talked to Jerry Smith about the case into the death of Librada Apodaca?
A. I have no personal knowledge that he talked to Jerry about that.
Q. Did he or Jerry ever tell you after your interview with Frank Aldeis that they had talked about the case of the death of Jimmy’s aunt?
A. I think they - - Jerry made the comments that - -
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something about, “We are here investigating. That’s why we were there.
Q. Right.
A. To investigate or interview this witness about the subject reference this case. And I recall that, you know, we talked, that what was mentioned was, of course, her name, Librada, that she had been axed to death and we were looking for this Ernesto Rodriquez. His name had surfaced and we thought he was here in Odessa, if he could be of assistance.
Q. What other discussions did you-all have with Jerry Smith that day about the - - this case?
A. That was really about it. There was nothing, no details, no.
Q. Did you take any materials from the case file up there to show to Frank Aldeis?
A. I don’t think so.
Q. Did you take any pictures of the victim?
A. No.
Q. To show him?
A. No.
Q. Did you take any pictures of the victim’s house to show him?
A. No.
Q. Did you take any pictures of the area to
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show to him?
No.
Q. How were you going to see if Frank Aldeis could confirm any details in the case if you weren’t going to take some of the photographs up there?
A. No, I was concerned whether Frank knew the whereabouts of Ernesto Rodriquez to see where he had been so we could - - we had a warrant outstanding for him, Ernesto Rodriquez.
Q. You-all had - - And was that warrant for Ernesto’s involvement in the death of Librada Rodriquez.
A. No, we had obtained a warrant for a burglary of habitation on Ernesto Rodriquez.
Q. So is it your testimony that Frank Aldeis was never a suspect in the death of Librada Apodaca?
A. No, he was just a witness.
Q. And he was - - when you say he was just a witness, he was a witness to that? What did you think he was a witness to?
A. A witness to the fact that he had supposedly talked to Ernesto Rodriquez.
Q. What was it that your information uncovered, that Ernesto knew about this death?
A. Well - -
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Q. You’re telling this Court, are you not, that Ernesto Rodriquez was a suspect in the death of Librada Apodaca?
A. Yes, that’s correct.
Q. And you’re telling this Court that Frank Aldeis was not a suspect in the death of Librada Apodaca?
A. Yes, that’s correct.
Q. But Frank Aldeis had information about - -
(Brief recess)
Q. (BY MR. PONTON): isn’t it true that Frank Aldeis told you and Jimmy Apodaca that he could find Ernesto Rodriquez if you-all went to Odessa?
A. No, no.
Q. It’s not?
A. No.
Q. What did Frank Aldeis say he could do for you if you made the trip all the way to Odessa to talk to him?
A. If I recall correctly, Frank contacted the Odessa Police Department, an officer there and stated he had seen the flyer, he had seen a photograph of who he thought was Ernesto Rodriquez. And he had talked to this person and this person had made certain comments that he was running away from El
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Paso, and he said, well, that was the reason. And he also said that he had messed up an old lady, something like that. And - -
Q. Had he - - And did you-all believe that when he talked about this messing up an old lady that this was referring to him messing up Librada Apodaca?
A. We didn’t know. That’s why we wanted to find out.
Q. And did you make some notes on that conversation?
A. Yes, it’s in that file.
Q. Did you make a supplement on the trip you made in Odessa to see Frank Aldeis?
A. I don’t think so, but I don’t recall. I don’t think so.
Q. You didn’t make a supplement on the fact that you were talking to somebody who could lead you to a man who might have committed this murder?
A. There was nothing that could be corroborated. There was nothing that could assist us in the investigation of this offense and not to confuse it anymore.
Q. Where is Frank Aldeis now?
A. I have no idea.
Q. When is the last time you talked to him?
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Just that one time.
Q. And do you know if he is still in Odessa?
A. I have no idea.
Q. Do you know if he has an address?
A. I think the address he gave us was a motel in Odessa.
Q. Did he have any family in Odessa?
A. I don’t think so.
MR. PONTON: May I approach the witness, Your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes, sir.
Q. (BY MR. PONTON): I’m going to mark this for identification as Defense Exhibit 5. This is that file that was just handed to Doris Sipes and me by Bill Moody, and could you please identify that?
A. Well, it’s a flyer put out by the City of Odessa to patrol division and traffic division - - or detective division.
(Defendant’s exhibit marked, D-5)
Q. (BY MR. PONTON): And could you please tell the Court whose name there it is under the heading of attempt to locate?
A. Attempt to locate Ernesto Salcedo Rodriquez.
Q. And would you please read to the Court the reason to locate, the whole paragraph?
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“Reason to locate: Burglary of habitation have -1 warrant or W 8453366-2. Subject is a suspect in homicide in El Paso reference elderly woman axed to death in her residence. Recommend $100,000 bond if subject apprehended.”
Q. Do you know, Detective Perez, what exculpatory evidence means?
A. Not really.
Q. Do you know that that means any evidence which tends to show that somebody else might have committed a murder or that the person accused of a crime didn’t commit that murder, that that would be one definition of exculpatory evidence?
A. I don’t understand what you’re - -
Q. My point is, I as an attorney consider the fact that in June of 1984 you had a flyer out for a suspect in this murder because you felt he may have been involved in axing an elderly woman to death in El Paso. I consider this type of evidence to be exculpatory evidence.
My question to you now is: Can you please tell me and this Court what other evidence you’re aware of like this that may exist in your file, any other evidence of any other suspects that were so important that you-all put out a flyer or that
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You-all would make a trip to Odessa or anyplace else or that you-all would make this kind of effort regarding it? Can you please tell me what other evidence like that may exist?
There is no other evidence. I did not make this flyer. This is the one I sent over there. This is the one I made here in El Paso.
Q. Yes.
A. If I could read that.
Q. Well, this is a wanted flyer that talks about him being wanted for burglary. Is that correct?
A. Yes. That’s what the information was that I sent to Odessa.
Q. Right. But when Odessa puts out their flyer, they say that the real reason for trying to locate him is because he is a suspect in a homicide in El Paso reference an elderly woman axed to death in her residence. Isn’t that correct?
A. That’s what on there, but I have no control over what Odessa puts on their flyers.
Q. How would Odessa find out that information unless they communicated with you or Jimmy Apodaca?
A. They could have called any officer in the division but more than likely one of us.
Q. Do you recall talking with any Odessa
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Officers in June of ’84 regarding Ernesto Rodriquez?
Just - - No, I don’t, except when we got back to Odessa and we talked to Lieutenant Smith.
Q. Well, my question to you, sir, is: Does Odessa put out flyers on El Paso murder suspects because they don’t have anything better to do or do they do it because are requested to do that by you or someone else in your department?
A. Probably upon request.
Q. And probably that request would come from you or Jimmy Apodaca, wouldn’t it?
A. More than likely.
Q. You can’t recall making that request?
A. All I recall is making my flyer that I sent to Odessa, a copy of it requesting assistance from Odessa authorities. Of course, they may have known about our murder here. I don’t know. But this is what I requested.
Q. Let me ask you this. This Odessa Police Department flyer where they talk about this man being a suspect in axing a woman to death in her residence in El Paso, doesn’t that tend to let you - - to tell you that they had some information about this case?
A. Yes.
Q. And that information would have come from
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you or Jimmy Apodaca?
Could have, but I know I didn’t do it.
Q. Well, so it either came from Jimmy Apodaca or someone else. Is that your testimony?
A. Not necessarily.
Q. This wanted flyer put out by the El Paso Police Department reference Ernesto Rodriquez is the wanted flyer where you said that the subject was wanted on an outstanding burglary of habitation night warrant. Is that correct?
A. Yes, that’s correct.
Q. If the subject is apprehended, please tell the Court who it says to contact if that subject is apprehended based upon what is written there in your flyer.
A. You want me to read the whole thing?
Q. Just the sentence about who to contact please.
A. “If the subject is apprehended, please contact Sergeant Apodaca in crimes against persons or Detective Ed Uribe, Detective Benito Perez, Jr., at 541-4122.”
Q. How many flyers were sent out by your department regarding the investigation into the death of Librada Apodaca?
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That was the only flyer made, I believe.
Q. And you’re referring to this flyer, which is page 3 of Defense Exhibit 5 which is the El Paso Police Department, subject Ernesto Rodriquez?
A. The interoffice memorandum?
Q. Yes.
A. That’s to the fugitive detail of the Odessa Police Department requesting assistance in apprehending Rodriquez. The first sentence was: “We are currently working a homicide case in which a 73-year-old lady was axed to death in her residence.” This was sent to their fugitive detail in Odessa.
The next one is the one here that was submitted here locally with a picture of Ernesto Rodriquez and warrant information and the vehicle information. And then bond had been set at $100,000. And also the subject is wanted for questioning in a major case.
This was sent to all the substations here in El Paso and I also submitted it to the border bridges. I took some copies of this there, also.
Q. When it’s referring to that that suspect is wanted for questioning in El Paso reference a major case, isn’t it true that that case is the investigation into the death of Librada Apodaca?
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Yes, that’s correct.
Q. He wasn’t wanted for questioning in any other major case in El Paso, was he?
A. Not to my knowledge.
Q. Is it your testimony today that this is the only flyer that you’re aware of ever being sent out regarding the investigation into the death of Librada Apodaca?
A. Apart from Crime Stoppers, but, yes, that’s correct.
Q. What flyer was sent out by Crime Stoppers, Detective Perez?
A. Just the regular one that comes out on Crime Stoppers and requesting information or assistance from anyone that has information leading to the arrest or apprehension of subjects involved in a particular offense.
Q. Did you have a picture on the flyer?
A. I think we ran it several times. The first time, I think, there was a request from the family not to put her photograph on there. And then I think later on we had one where her photograph was placed on there. I don’t recall exactly when or what. That was beyond my control.
Q. Did - - Was there ever a flyer put out that
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had a composite photograph on it?
No, I don’t think so. No, I don’t recall.
Q. Was there ever a flyer put out of any photograph other than this Mr. Rodriquez?
A. I don’t think so.
Q. Please tell me and this Court how many other suspects that you investigated in this case that were major enough for you to do this kind of work on, anything besides the - - How many other major suspects did you have in this case that you worked on?
A. Their names?
Q. Please.
A. I believe one was Estrello Baltazar Sanchez.
Q. Why was he - - Let’s get the list and then we will go back. Please give me the list of the names of the major suspects in this case. And the first one you just told me was Ernesto Baltazar?
A. No, Baltazar Sanchez Estrello.
Q. Okay. Who was the next major suspect?
A. It was another individual, Indio. I’ll have to look them up in my notes here. Francisco Villa Lopez.
Q. What was that?
A. Francisco Villa Lopez.
Q. Francisco Villa Lopez?
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Yes, that’s correct.
Q. And Indio?
A. That’s his nickname.
Q. And who else? Who else were major suspects in this case?
A. Let me think. Then, of course, Mr. Rodriquez. We had Tito Salmeron.
Q. Salmeron or Sanmeron?
A. Salmeron. I’d have to get his file because that involved about four or five of them - - no, involved about two of them. It was a girl there and Tito Salmeron.
Q. Who else was a major suspect in this case?
A. I’d have to go through all the notes.
Q. Was a fellow named Cruz Marrufo a major suspect?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was a fellow named Geovany Chavez a major suspect?
A. Yes.
Q. James Drury?
A. James Drury? Oh, okay. He was an accomplice or a friend of Ernesto Rodriquez.
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Q. Okay. Was a Robert Avalos, Jr., a major suspect?
A. Yes, I guess you could say that.
Q. Was Dawn Russell a major suspect?
A. Not really.
Q. Who else was a major suspect that we have not listed?
A. Oh, Antonio Cortez.
Q. Antonio Cortez?
A. And/or Tony Cortez. He is a friend of or an associate of Geovany.
Q. Who else?
A. There were so many. There was an individual who escaped, I think it was, in New Mexico that was apprehended in Silver City. I would have to go through the notes to find his name.
Q. Let’s do that after we break this afternoon. But my question to you now: Were any flyers put out on Ernesto Baltazar Sanchez Estrello or Francisco Villa Lopez or Tito Salmaron or Cruz
A. No.
Q. Or Geovany Chavez?
A. No.
Q. Or James Drury?
A. No.
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Q. Or Robert Avalos, Jr.?
A. No.
Q. Or Antonio Cortez?
A. No.
Q. Why was Ernesto Baltazar a major suspect?
A. Ernesto?
Q. Baltazar Sanchez Estrello.
A. Yeah. Okay. We had received information from the Albuquerque Police Department in which a lady had called in saying that a person, an individual named Indio or Francisco Villa had been observed or seen in Albuquerque and believes this was sometime in July of ’84. And my note indicates it was July the 5th of ’84.
All this girl stated, that this individual was from Juarez, Chihuahua, Mexico, and he had been involved in a homicide where he had killed an old lady, and she related this to the Albuquerque Police Department and that she felt that he should have been incarcerated.
MS. SIPES: Excuse me. Just a minute.
Q. (BY MR. PONTON): I’m sorry, Detective. Go on, please.
This list that you have just given me contains nine people, and on that list of nine
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Persons there are four I have never heard of before, Ernesto Baltazar, Ernesto Rodriquez, Tito Salmeron and Antonio Cortez. Does your department have files on each of these individuals?
Yes, we do.
Q. Are those files on those individuals part of your case files into the investigation of the death of Librada Apodaca?
A. Yes, they are.
Q. Have you reviewed those prior to coming here today?
A. No, I have not.
Q. Will you make those files available to Doris Sipes and me so we can review them as part of our preparation of this case?
A. Sure, they should all be in there, in my file.
Q. Will you make that entire file available to us?
A. They are in certain files. Just those individuals there is what you’re referring to?
Q. Does your file contain other persons who have been suspects in this case and why they were suspects in this case?
A. Yes, I would imagine that they do, but I
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don’t recall exactly which ones they are. I would have to go through the whole file and see how it relates.
Q. But is it your testimony here to me this this afternoon, to this Court that your file will contain documents regarding other suspects in this case besides these persons that you and I have just talked about?
A. In all probability, yes.
Q. This file will contain references to those suspects and why they were suspects in the death of Librada Apodaca. Is that your testimony?
A. Well, if I can review those items, if I can recall exactly how they surfaced, yes.
THE COURT: Let me ask a question. Where is your file?
MR. MOODY: It’s right here. We brought it down.
THE COURT: Let me ask a question. You know, gentlemen, I went off on vacation in August and I understood you-all took depositions.
MR. PONTON: We did, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Did you take this man’s deposition? That was the purpose of it, so I wouldn’t have to sit here and take depositions.
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MR. PONTON: We did, Your Honor, and when we took his deposition, at the very first time he arrived to that deposition he brought this box of materials, and I believe Ms. Sipes was here at that time and requested to see those items. And it’s my understanding that those items were taken back away and she was not allowed to look through those items, and Mr. Perez would only have a very few documents with him to be able to look at.
And in that deposition, Your Honor, I’ll refer to page 75 of the deposition I took - - Excuse me - - page 76: “After September 20th of 1984, Detective, did you receive any leads from any source whatsoever that any person other than Henry Lucas either killed Librada Apodaca or was involved in her death?” His answer was yes.
“How many?”
“I don’t recall.”
“Did you follow up on those leads?”
“Yes.”
“What was the result of that investigation?”
“They were eliminated.”
Then it goes on and he says that: “Are
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There any other suspects in this case that are still being investigated?”
At page 78 of that deposition, “Yes.”
“Who are those other suspects?”
“I don’t know.”
In other words, we had him under deposition, Your Honor, but his memory was as faulty in that deposition as it has been this afternoon in response to questions propounded by me. I don’t - - It’s my recollection that he didn’t say he didn’t recall to any questions propounded to him by Mr. Moody this morning. In the first ten minutes of his testimony to me, I kept a little running count, and in ten minutes, he didn’t recall eight items.
So it’s - - my answer to the Court is that we did take the deposition, we did try to get this information and it was not forthcoming. And it’s only now when we are cross-examining him in response to the motion to suppress confessions that we suddenly find out that there is all these other suspects that haven’t been disclosed to us, that we find out that the exculpatory information that the 34th Judicial district attorney’s office has been under a continuing duty to disclose hasn’t been disclosed, that there was a flyer for a suspect in
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This very case that we’ve never seen, a file on these suspects we have never seen them.
I apologize to the Court that we had to go into these discovery matters here this afternoon, but this is the first time we have been made aware of it.
THE COURT: Mr. Moody, why don’t you explain to me why these matters weren’t given to these people when they took the man’s deposition.
MR. MOODY: Well, Your Honor, as I recall at the one deposition were Mr. - - that I was present at and Mr. Perez was here and we talked about a box of material, at that time we took the position- - of course, the material was upstairs in our office and he didn’t have to review. But that - - anyway, that I told Ms. Sipes at that time if she wanted to come up and look at those materials at the hearing that that would be all right, to look at these materials. And then I guess they didn’t have time to come up and look at those materials.
And then at the next hearing I was not present at. And I think we took the position at that hearing that these matters were the work product of the police department and to certify that if they wanted to look at these matters, to certify that question up to the Court on the deposition. And we
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Left it at that because it was their certification and they didn’t take the certified question to the Court to ask him.
THE COURT: Well, Mr. Moody, you’re telling me that you had the material in your office. My question to you is: When did it get to your office and how did it get there?
Detective Perez brought it to our offices, I believe, the day of the deposition.
THE COURT: so he was - - there was a request for Mr. Perez’ deposition and at that time there was a subpoena for these records and rather than bring them to the deposition, he brought them to you and you didn’t produce them. Is that what you’re saying to me?
MR. MOODY: I said we had them and I told them if they wanted to look at them to come up and look at them.
THE COURT: But you just said he didn’t have time to review them.
MR. MOODY: Well, he didn’t have time to review them. She wanted to at them.
MR. PONTON: Your Honor, let me read from a deposition that was taken. It was the first deposition of this witness, and Bill Moody was
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present and Doris Sipes was present.
And at page 6 of this deposition, which was taken Friday, August 15th, right in your jury room right here, Doris Sipes asked the question: “Did you bring any notes” - - to this witness, “Did you bring any notes with you here today?”
“No, I did not.”
“Did you receive a subpoena?”
“Yes, I did.”
“Did it ask for any of your notes?”
Answer: “I thought the subpoena stated that you wanted the records or supplements.”
Question: “Did you bring any of those?”
Answer: I brought some records and I turned them over to the district attorney.”
Question: Would you turn them over to me now, please sir?
Mr. Moody: Well, he cannot. They are not in his possession.”
MR. MOODY: That’s right, they were not in his possession physically and that’s why after the
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hearing was over, Your Honor, I told her if she wanted to come up and look at them that she could.
MS. SIPES: That’s incorrect, Your Honor. The remainder of that deposition will show repeatedly that Mr. Moody refused on the record to let me look at those records and that he terminated the interview after - - You can see it was a very short deposition just by the number of pages.
Your Honor, let me go ahead and tell this Court something that is very, very disturbing to me as a defense attorney representing a man who this district attorney wants to send to his death. That in the physical evidence of this case, little matches were found throughout the home indicating, as one officer testified, that someone has entered the home in the nighttime and had then proceeded to light their way by the use of little matches.
I have never heard of Ernesto Rodriquez as a potential suspect until now. I have been handed a file and it appears that on June 15th of 1983 some 17 days after the murder of Librada Apodaca that Ernesto Rodriquez was a suspect in a burglary at the address of - - was a suspect in a burglary that occurred under very similar circumstances. The address was 8749 C O L O M A.
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Is that down in the Irma area, sir?
It’s in Ysleta.
MS. SIPES: How close is it to the Irma Street address?
A couple of miles.
MS. SIPES: Undersigned has received information that the above mentioned suspect, that means Mr. Rodriquez, was possibly involved in this particular offense whereby undersigned was able to contact ID&R and his fingerprints were definitely located at that burglary.
The residence had been ransacked. During the course of the burglary a window had been taken off an elderly woman’s home while she was in there asleep. They had - - They found numerous little matches, cardboard type, throughout. They then - - He and one of his buddies then went to a trailer house and admitted to a third person that they had axed - - that killed the complainant in this case where they had - - and had stabbed her numerous times with a long sword.
MR. MOODY: I don’t think that - -
MS. SIPES: Dagger instead of sword. I’m paraphrasing, but it says that in there.
THE COURT: One other question: Where is this Ernesto Rodriquez?
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MR. MOODY: He’s in - - Where is he?
In TDC.
THE COURT: Has anybody taken his fingerprints.
Yes, we did.
The court: And nothing?
Negative results. And we went a little bit further. We had CI’s - - we had two or three CI’S in this particular - - confidential informants - - in this - - with reference to this particular individual. And the last one we had, one was placed in the same cell with Ernesto and the other one was an associate or former friend or r=present friend of Ernesto. And, of course, he - - this was his responsibility, to try to ascertain as much information from Ernesto regarding Librada Apodaca. And could never be confirmed.
Two stories have come out regarding what Ms. Sipes was relating to just now. One is that they went to a trailer court in the lower valley and one of them was full of blood, only one time. And another time they went to a residence and there full of blood.
And then - - And this - - One of the
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Individuals, it was a little group of about three or four, half of that group we had in our office and they could - - the time element was off about a year. We just could not get it close enough and we didn’t have any homicides or residential homicides in the time frame that these people were referring to.
And one of the reasons is we wanted try to get more accurate information, and even with that confidential informer in the same tank or cell with Ernesto, we still couldn’t get any information regarding Librada Apodaca.
THE COURT: Well, officer - - Detective Perez, is there any truth to this statement that Ms. Sipes made that there were matches throughout the Apodaca house and throughout another house?
Okay. There were several matches in the Apodaca house. The one that Ms. Sipes is referring to, I don’t recall if there was matches there. We made his fingerprints.
What happened there is that they had entered the residence on Coloma, or Coloma Circle and the woman - - or the lady there had awakened. And that same individual, James Drury, I believe, was with Ernest or another individual and subsequently - - we had talked to him subsequently and he was with
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Ernesto. And what they did is they didn’t really ransack the whole house, they took some property and they took the lady’s keys and drove her car - - I believe her car was later founf in Juarez, Mexico.
But the only similarity, it was a residence, it was a burglary habitation at nighttime, but there was no injuries to the lady. We could never substantiate or corroborate where another lady had been killed by this particular group of individuals. And we talked to those people and they were incarcerated over in the county jail.
THE COURT: You know, what I don’t understand, Mr. Moody, is that we are trying to get these hearings - - I’d like to get to the suppression hearings and this type of thing.
MR. MOODY: So would I.
THE COURT: But you forced me now to open this up and take depositions of these people because you haven’t turned over things to them that should have been turned over to them at the depositions. So now I’m sitting here listening to all of this evidence which I shouldn’t have to listen to. It should have been gotten on deposition.
MR. MOODY: If they would have brought you the certified questions which all - -
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THE COURT: Mr. Moody, I was on vacation, and at the time I left here, I asked you and I told Ms. Sipes and everybody involved in this, I said, give them information that they are entitled to. They are certainly entitled to this information because this information is certainly exculpatory.
And there was no reason for you to take these papers away from this police officer. The police officer brought them to the deposition. Rather than him bringing there there, he put them in your office and you refused to give them to them, according to what I’ve heard.
And certainly that is not right and certainly that is not the way to conduct an investigation and it’s withholding evidence. And I’m telling you that I don’t want any more of it, that if you can’t be open with them and they have to discover it this way, it’s a disgrace and it’s a terribly bad situation to have to do it this way.
MR. MOODY: Well, I told them - -
THE COURT: If you have anything further up there in your office that these people should have, I want you to give it to them.
MR. MOODY: I told them if they want to look at anything we have, any time we have, if they want
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to come up - -
THE COURT: Mr. Moody, they don’t know what you have, because when they asked for these papers you took them. You just said to this Court he did not have time to review them. Well, that’s the purpose of a deposition. You can sit at a deposition and ask the question and review them at the deposition. But, you know, that’s not the way we are conducting this for some reason.
MR. MOODY: Well, you know, we are not very familiar with deposition procedures. They are very rare in criminal cases.
THE COURT: The reason it’s rare in this case, Mr. Moody, is because they are not getting any cooperation. They are not getting the exculpatory statements and things that they should be getting. If they were getting those, there would be no need to take the deposition of these officers.
Now, do you think that it’s not important to a criminal case to know other suspects in it and who might have been involved in it if your defense is, “I wasn’t there,” and that’s what their defense is, “I wasn’t there,” and that’s what their defense is, according to them?
MR. MOODY: Well, as far as the other suspects, it’s whether these people were suspects in
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this case or some other case. I think there were several - -
THE COURT: He just said they were suspects in this case. He listed nine names.
MR. PONTON: Your Honor, let me read something from a document that Ms. Sipes just handed me form this file which was taken from Detective Perez’ file that Mr. Moody gave - - This is regarding an interview with the subject Luis Johnston.
Johnston stated that reference a homicide that he had been questioned for on the night, both Rodriquez, this fellow in this flyer, and James Drury went to Johnston’s mobile home and that both Rodriquez and Drury were both full of blood. Both were bragging on how Rodriquez had struck or stabbed the victim with a large dagger to the back of the head, back and chest.
And Ms. Sipes just shows me another document in this file that talks about how this fellow, Rodriquez breaks into an old lady’s house, ransacks the house and leaves a trail of paper matches there, just exactly what happened at Librada Apodaca’s.
What my concern is and what Ms. Sipes’ concern is is that the state has been under a continuing duty to disclose exculpatory evidence, yet
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They did not disclose this stuff until it gets pulled out of this witness on cross-examination on a motion-to-suppress hearing. They didn’t consider it exculpatory to tell us that Geovany Valenzuela had confessed to killing Librada Apodaca.
So I’m just concerned that we are not getting the exculpatory information that the Constitutions of the United States and Texas tell us we are entitled to, and I just want to request once again that we get this information.
MR. MOODY: Again, you know, they can look at any of this stuff, get copies of any of this stuff. They have more information in this case than anybody has ever had in any case.
You know, they have - - You know, I don’t think we deny that they have a tremendous amount of information in this case. They probably haven’t had time to get all of it. I mean, I have not personally had time. I don’t think there is anybody alive that has the time to look at every piece of paper in this entire case. There are hundreds of thousands of pieces of paper>
THE COURT: But, Mr. Moody, if they had requested it and asked for it and it’s not given them when they requested and asked for it, certainly now
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Is not the time to bring it in. This is the time to have a motion for suppression. We are not here to take depositions. But as I say, it looks like we are going to have to because these things were not done at the deposition time. We would not have had to take a deposition.
If this gentleman or you or whoever had these files had gone to Ms. Sipes and Mr. Ponton, had said these are people we investigated, these are exculpatory statements, there are the things we had done, we wouldn’t have to spend the money to do those things. But now this thing is going to drag out forever. It’s going to be an awful expensive thing.
Now, then, I want - - Detective Perez, is this your - - all of these are your files?
Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Do you have any other files, Detective, that what is here in this box regarding this case?
No.
THE COURT: This box, this brown box next to Mr. Moody contains all the files in your possession regarding the investigation into this case?
That’s correct.
THE COURT: All right. Now let me ask you
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this. Ms. Sipes and Mr. Ponton, when do you want to go over these files with this officer?
MR. PONTON: Right now, Your Honor.
MS. SIPES: Right now.
THE COURT: We were going to recess. Mr. Moody had an appointment at 4:00. Mr. Jewkes or whoever, Mr. Moody, if you would like to go on, you go on. We are going to go over these in the jury room. Whoever you-all want to assign to go over with them, please, if it exculpatory material, let them see it.
MR. MOODY: They can see it all.
THE COURT: If it’s not, don’t let them see it.
MR. MOODY: They can see all of it.
MR. PONTON: May I inquire from you, Mr. Moody, what other exculpatory evidence exists that we could see that we haven’t seen?
MR. MOODY: I don’t know of any other. There are files in here that I have not even read.
THE COURT: Well, we are going to look at them, and here is what I want done. When it’s over with, where is - - Well, it’s 4:00. You’re not going to have time to do it by 5:00.
MR. PONTON: I’ll been glad to stay here late, Your Honor, with Detective Perez.
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THE COURT: Well, you’re going to be here for awhile doing it. I’m not going to let this witness go until we go through the whole thing.
MR. PONTON: If this witness is ready to - - is willing to stay.
THE COURT: I’ll tell you what we are going to do. We are going to work until 5:00. At 5:00 Mr. Dow, you take those records, put tapes around them, and lock them back here in my closet, my locked closet. I want you to sign them so that it will show in the morning - - and you get the attorneys to sign over those tapes so it will show in the morning that no one has been in it.
Mr. Dow: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: We will bring them back tomorrow morning and at 8:00 you be here to begin looking through these records. You understand, sir? 8:00 in the jury room tomorrow morning.
We are going to keep going through them with the district attorney and with Ms. Sipes and Mr. Ponton. We are going to go through the records. After we go through them, we will come back and continue this hearing.
Now, then, I want you as you go through there, Mr. Moody, if you find or if you feel like
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There is anything in these records that the defendant should not have, if it’s work product, that’s fine with me. Keep it aside. Here is what I want you to do. Put it aside. If you have any gripe about it, then we will have a hearing to find out whether you should have it.
You put aside those things that you want copies of that you feel like you need. We will talk about those. If you’re not - - If the district attorney has a problem with giving you a copy of it, we will talk about it. If they have no problem, then you will have a copy made for you sometime tomorrow.
MR. MOODY: We have no problem with a copy of any of these materials.
THE COURT: Mr. Moody, you said you haven’t been through them all, so I’m not so sure. I’m not sure what is in the material.
MR. MOODY: Well, I don’t either. But I mean, if there is something there and they think they need it, they can have it.
THE COURT: All right.
(An evening recess was taken.)
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)
Vs. ) CAUSE NO. 43314-120
)
Heard on
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For the State: WILLIAM MOODY First Assistant District Attorney
City-county Building
El Paso, TX 79901
Richard Jewkes
Assistant District Attorney
City-county Building
El Paso, TX 79901
Carol Pennock
Assistant District Attorney
City-county Building
El Paso, TX 79901
For the Defendant: ROD PONTON
Attorney at Law
Suite 505
Caples Building
El Paso, TX 79901
Doris Sipes
Attorney at Law
1011 North Mesa
El Paso, TX 79901
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Direct Examination by Mr. Moody 534
Cross-examination by Mr. Ponton 555
Redirect Examination by Mr. Moody 593
Recross-Examination by Mr. Ponton 600
Direct Examination by Mr. Jewkes 648
Cross-Examination by Mr. Ponton 665
Direct Examination by Mr. Moody 685
Cross-Examination by Mr. Ponton 704
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Direct Examination by Mr. Jewkes 648
Cross-Examination by Mr. Ponton 665
Direct Examination by Mr. Moody 685
Cross-Examination by Mr. Ponton 704
Direct Examination by Mr. Moody 534
Cross-examination by Mr. Ponton 555
Redirect Examination by Mr. Moody 593
Recross-Examination by Mr. Ponton 600
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S-6 Audiotape 547 547
S-7 Supplement 593 594
D-7 Memo 589 589 593 593
D-8 Receipt 591 591 593 593
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)
)
BE IT REMEMBERED that on the 11th day of September, 1986, beginning at 9:13 a.m., came on to be heard the continuation of pretrial motions in the above styled and numbered cause, before the HONORABLE BRUNSON MOORE, Judge Presiding in and for the 120th Judicial District Court, and that the same was reported by Meryl Wersinger, Certified Shorthand Reporter and Notary Public in and for the County Court at Law Number Four, El Paso County, Texas, and that the following proceedings were had as follows, to-wit:
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THE COURT: Let’s let the record reflect that Mr. Perez is still on the stand. I think we are on redirect. Is that correct?
MR. PONTON: Yes, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Ms. Sipes, this is your deposition. I wish you would take that.
MS. SIPES: Thank you.
MR. MOODY: I do not have any further questions. I think Mr. Perez has answered a lot of questions and I don’t have anymore.
THE COURT: All right. Are there any more questions for Detective Perez?
MR. PONTON: No, Your Honor.
THE COURT: May he be excused?
MR. PONTON: He may subject to recall at a later date.
THE COURT: All right.
THE COURT: Detective Perez, thank you, sir. You don’t - - We will be in touch with you if they need you again.
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. Thank you.
MR. PONTON: May I confer with the witness, Your Honor, for a moment on again discussing his copying of his exculpatory files?
THE COURT: Sure.
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How do you-all want to do that?
MR. PONTON: That’s what we were discussing.
THE COURT: Do you want me to call someone from downstairs to do it and let Mr. Perez go down there with him?
MR. PONTON: That would be the best, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Get Piti Vasquez’ office on the phone. You tell him I want somebody to come up here in that reproduction office, whatever they have to pick this up and then go down there and do it. Tell them I want them up here right now and let’s get it done.
And you let me know when they come up here and do it. I want to know when it’s done. All right?
Who are you going to call next?
MR. MOODY: Lieutenant Jerry Smith.
THE COURT: Good morning. Raise your right hand, sir.
Have a seat.
JERRY SMITH,
HAVING BEEN DULY SWORN BY THE Court to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, was examined and testified as follows:
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BY MR. MOODY:
Q. Would you state your name, sir?
A. Jerry Smith.
Q. How are you employed?
A. I’m a lieutenant with the Odessa, Texas Police Department.
Q. How long have you been employed as a law enforcement officer?
A. A little over 14 years, sir.
Q. Has it always been in the Odessa area?
A. Yes.
Q. With the Odessa Police Department?
A. I had about a year and a half with the sheriff’s department in Odessa.
Q. What is your assignment in the Odessa Police Department? What is your job function?
A. Detective lieutenant presently in charge of the narcotics division, Crime Stopers division and burglary division.
Q. Have you ever been in the homicide division?
A. Yes, sir, I have.
Q. When was that?
A. From around 1974 until 1983.
Q. You have worked homicide cases before with
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the Odessa Police Department?
Yes, sir, I have.
Q. At the time of your interview with Henry Lucas in regards to the Librada Apodaca case, were you in the homicide division then?
A. No, sir, I had just promoted out at that particular point in time, out of homicide. I had been promoted to lieutenant and been reassigned in my division.
Q. Have you ever lived in El Paso, Texas?
A. No, sir, I have not.
Q. Have you ever been in El Paso, Texas, for an extended period of time?
A. Just the last time we were out here for court, but that was on this trial.
Q. But other than the occasions you named, you have never been here more than two or three days?
A. No, sir, just weekend trips with family and things like that.
Q. Other than your involvement in taking the statement or taking the tape-recorded statement from the defendant Henry Lucas in this case, have you had any other involvement whatsoever in the Librada Apodaca case?
A. No, sir, I have not.
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Q. Now, going back to what would have been about the 18th, 17th, 18th, 19th of September of 1983, did you have occasion to contact Sergeant Jimmy Apodaca of the El Paso Police Department?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. Why was that?
A. I wanted to reconfirm whether they wanted me to ask Mr. Lucas about that particular homicide or not.
Q. Had you ever met Jimmy Apodaca before?
A. Yes, sir, a couple months before that I had met him.
Q. Where was that?
A. In Odessa.
Q. Then you met him in Odessa sometime in the summer, June or July?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You don’t have any exact date on that?
A. No, sir, I really don’t remember exactly when they were out there.
Q. What was the purpose of that meeting?
A. One of my detectives - - At that time, I was over the warrant division. We reorganized twice after I was promoted. But at that particular time I had the warrant division under my operations. And one of
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my guys had been apparently working on a flyer that the El Paso Police Department had sent around and had located some possible witnesses that could aid them in this case.
Q. When you met with Sergeant Jimmy Apodaca, did you meet with any other members of the El Paso Police Department?
A. He brought Detective Perez with him.
Q. Now, did you discuss with Sergeant Apodaca or Detective Perez or both of them any details of the Librada Apodaca Murder?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What details of the Librada Apodaca case were you made aware of by either Sergeant Apodaca or Detective Perez?
A. They, of course, were investigating this particular case when they were there. And out of curiosity, I just asked them what happened. I read that flyer at that time. It was the first time - -
Q. You men you read the - - Had you read the El Paso Police Department flyer or the Odessa Police Department flyer?
A. I don’t recall if it was theirs or ours at the time. When this particular witness was brought into our office is when I first became aware of this
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Flyer. I looked at it and we were just standing there in my office. I was sitting there. I think one or both of them were in my office getting ready to talk to this guy or had already talked to him and they just told me that the elderly woman had been axed to death out here.
And I believe it was Sergeant Apodaca that in passing said he believed it was sex after death.
Q. Can you recall if any other details were related to you at that time or any specific information about the case?
A. I think they talked about it being a burglary because this particular flyer mentioned burglaries or something, but it’s - - but any other details, they weren’t significant to me at the time.
Q. Okay. Was there any mention that the murder occurred in her residence?
A. Yes.
Q. Did they relate to you in what area of her residence the murder had occurred?
A. No.
Q. Did they give you the date of the offense?
A. On - - When I called him back to make sure that they still wanted me to ask Lucas about that, I asked him for the date at that time.
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Q. All right.
A. Apodaca - - Sergeant Apodaca was the one I was talking to about the date.
Q. So later you had the date of the offense?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you have the approximate time of the offense?
A. No.
Q. Did you have any description of any of the items missing?
A. No, sir, I don’t believe so.
Q. When they told you the fact about it was an elderly woman axed to death and then the portion about they believed that there was sex after death or sexual assault involved, what - - did anything come to your mind?
A. Yes, sir, I asked them if they had talked to Henry Lucas concerning that homicide.
Q. Why did you ask them that?
A. Because there had been several instances in a document that the DPS had put out on different crimes that he was suspected in where a sex after death had been part of the modus operandi on a particular case.
Q. So then what conversation, if any, did
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you-all have about Henry Lucas at the time?
I asked them if they had talked to him about this particular case and they said that they hadn’t, that some other people within their division had talked to him. And I think the gist of it was that they weren’t sure if he was questioned about this particular offense or not because they weren’t involved in that particular aspect of the investigation.
Q. Did you mention to them anything about whether or not you would be seeing Henry Lucas?
A. I told them that I had been told by the rangers that he would be back in our area and that I had requested through the local ranger office to talk to him one more time and that I would be scheduled at some future date to talk to him - - I wasn’t sure when - - but if they wanted me to, I would ask him about this particular case.
Q. All right. Did they request you talk to him about it?
A. Yes, sir. They said that if I didn’t mind, if I was going to be talking to him, anyway, just ask him. I agreed to do so.
Q. Did you-all decide if you wanted to or did you go into any idea how much in detail you would go
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into the case with him or had you-all discussed that?
I just told them I wouldn’t attempt to get a confession because I was not the case investigator on the thing. And my experience in homicide had been that any confession that is gotten by some other outsider is never quite what it would be unless it’s the person directly involved with the investigation.
Q. What, basically the outsider doesn’t have the information?
A. Doesn’t have the knowledge in order to corroborate any details of the thing. I would be working in the dark and didn’t have the information to go with on it.
Q. Did you request the detailed information?
A. No, sir.
Q. Was the detailed information given to you?
A. No, sir, it was not.
Q. The next contact that you had with Sergeant Apodaca was approximately when?
A. After - - When they were at my office after that?
Q. After they left in June of July?
A. Would have been when I called them on the telephone. I believe that would have been on the day I was going to talk to Mr. Lucas.
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Q. And you spoke directly to Sergeant Apodaca?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What did you tell or ask Sergeant Apodaca?
A. I told him that I had been given an appointment with Lucas on that day and that I wanted to know if he still wanted me to ask him about that offense. He said, “Sure, go ahead.”
And I told him if anything developed that I would contact him. I was scheduled initially to talk to him at 3:30 that afternoon, and I felt like with the time difference between Odessa or the Odessa area and this area that I could probably call him back at work and if not, how could I reach him. And he told me to call the dispatcher if he was off duty already.
Q. Okay. You gained no other details about the case?
A. No, sir.
Q. Then did you, in fact, have an opportunity to interview the defendant in this case, Henry Lucas?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. Where did you have the opportunity to interview him?
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Went to Monahans, Texas, which is about 30 miles west of Odessa to the Ward County Sheriff’s Department.
Q. Approximately what time was it that you finally got to meet him?
A. 11:30 that night, 11:30 p.m.
Q. Was the primary reason that you were going to interrogate, talk to Henry Lucas that night?
A. I had another homicide that I wanted to talk to him about.
Q. Why did you want to talk to him about that case?
A. We had a priest that was murdered in Odessa in December of ’81 and the suspect had been tried and convicted giving a confession indicating there was another person involved. And the defense attorney had indicated to me that he had heard that Mr. Lucas was in the area at the time of the murder. In order to cover my bases on any possible retrials or anything, I wanted to clear the air as far as Lucas was concerned.
Q. So you wanted to check up and see if he was or was not involved in that case?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was that a case in which you did have
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knowledge if many of the details?
Pardon me, sir?
Q. Was that a case - - Where the priest was murdered, did you have many of the details in that case?
A. Yes, sir, I was the investigator throughout in that case.
Q. So you did know the intimate details of that case?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. Did you tape record that particular discussion with Henry Lucas?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. Did you have a tape recorder with you?
A. yes, sir.
Q. Were you familiar with how to operate the tape recorder?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was the tape recorder in proper working order?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was it capable of recording voices?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Then did you warn defendant Henry Lucas of his rights, his Constitutional rights?
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Yes, I did.
Q. And did you warn him off one of the standard warning form cards?
A. I borrowed a card off of the Texas Ranger that accompanied me. I didn’t happen to have one with me.
Q. Were those the same warnings that you’re familiar with that appear in the Code of Criminal Procedure?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. I show you Article 3822 of the Code of Criminal Procedure, section 2A, numbers 1 through 5. Are those the rights that you read the defendant in this case?
A. yes, sir, they are.
Q. For the record, would you read them?
A. Prior to making a statement either received from a magistrate the warning provided in Article 1517 of this code, it was received from the person whom the statement is made warning that he has the right to remain silent and not make any statement at all and that any statement he makes may be used against him at his trial.
Any statement he makes may be used as evidence against him in court. He has the right to
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Have a lawyer present to advise him prior to and during any questioning. If he is unable to employ a lawyer, he has a right to have a lawyer appointed to advise him prior to and during any questioning and he has the right to terminate the interview at any time.
Q. All right. Did you ask Mr. Lucas if he understood those rights?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. Did you ask him if he wished to waive those rights and voluntarily give you a statement?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Did you tell him that the statement was being tape recorded?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And then after the defendant voluntarily waived his rights, did you begin to question him on the case involving the priest?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. That was the first thing you discussed with him?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was that the majority of the tape?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. That case has nothing to do with this case, does it?
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No, sir.
Q. Did you finally get to a point where you finished talking to Henry Lucas about the murder with the priest?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did he deny or admit to that murder?
A. He said he didn’t have anything to do with that murder.
Q. Then did you ask him about the El Paso murder?
A. yes, sir, I did.
Q. All right.
MR. MOODY: May I have this marked for identification purposes?
(State’s exhibit marked, S-6)
(An off-the-record discussion was held.)
Q. (BY MR. MOODY): All right. I have it set here on approximately the portion where you begin the interview with Henry Lucas on the El Paso case. Okay?
A. yes.
Q. Listen to this and see if this is an accurate transcription of the tape as you remember it, and, you know, then when I get done, I’ll ask you if that portion has been altered in any way, added anything to it or deleted from it that you can recall.
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All right, sir.
Q. Okay.
(An off-the-record discussion as held.)
(At this time, a portion of State’s Exhibit 6 was played with the following transcription :)
Mr. Lucas: “Tied up telephone. He had cut the telephone cord already to telephone, cut it. Like the telephone was up on the wall or something, he will cut the telephone cord right off the telephone.”
Mr. Smith: “Another deal I want to ask you about which people out of El Paso they asked me to visit with you and see. Right before you got locked up, then probably a week or so an old Mexican lady was chopped up with an axe in her house, a grey-headed old lady. Is that: - -
Mr. Lucas: “No, I told him I was out there, but they called me a liar, so” - -
Mr. Smith: “Is that what you told them?”
Mr. Lucas: “I told them I was out there, but they called me a liar, so I let it go” - -
Mr. Smith: “Is that right? This is some different guys that I talked to and they were - - What?”
Mr. Lucas: “It’s what I call north of El
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Paso.”
Mr. Smith: “You chopped the lady up with the axe. Can you tell me something about that?”
Mr. Lucas: “Well, that was during a break-in. I broke in her house.”
Mr. Smith: “Is that right before you got locked up?”
Mr. Lucas: “It was about - - I don’t know, about two or three more weeks before I got locked up, I guess, maybe a little longer. I really wasn’t locked up. It wasn’t too long.
Mr. Smith: “I’ve got an actual date on this thing. It’s May the 27th.”
Mr. Lucas: Yeah, I know I got locked up in jail on June the 11th.”
Mr. Smith: “Anything you can tell me about the particular murder?”
Mr. Lucas: “Well, the woman was in the - - in her bedroom when I went in. And it seems like I took her out of the bedroom, I think it was in the living room that - - is where I killed her. I don’t remember. I took some jewelry and some money and I can’t remember whether I took her television. I started to, but I don’t remember if I ever did or not.
“It was some - - this old, I call it Mexican
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jewelry, that I took. So, what do you call it, it’s like silver, but I don’t think it was.”
Mr. Smith: “Kind of cheap stuff?”
Mr. Lucas: “No, it looked expensive. It had this - - not sapphire, but green” - -
Mr. Smith: “Turquoise?”
Mr. Lucas: “Turquoise. Had that stuff on it. And I took it. Well, the woman looked to be about maybe 60 close to 60, maybe a little older, of, about five-two, five-three, about 100 - - maybe 115, 120 pounds, skinny-looking. If I can remember, I did a good job on her, did a really good job on her. Other than” - -
Mr. Smith: “Where did you get this?”
Mr. Lucas: “The axe came from her house is where the axe came from.”
Mr. Smith: “Do you remember anything about the area?”
Mr. Lucas: “Well’ it sits - - Well, you go through, back over, so forth, over a hill and back out, circle back around toward where the house was at back in there.
“I went out there and talked to El Paso. I had done quite a few out in that area and I talked to them and I told them, I said, ‘I got on, you know,
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Just recent down here.’
“No, no. You got none down here.”
Mr. Smith: “So two white boys you talked to out there?”
Mr. Lucas: “Yeah, well, there was three or four of them altogether. They didn’t want to even believe anything I had to say. And so I didn’t didn’t” - -
Mr. Smith: “You’re pretty sure that axe was yours?”
Mr. Lucas: “Oh, yeah.”
Mr. Smith: “That’s - - See, what happened is they’re coming to Odessa, two guys that didn’t get to talk to you.”
Mr. Lucas: “Yep.”
Mr. Smith: “And we were just talking about some cases and they brought this up and I said, ‘Well, hell, after visiting with them, and they said, “No, we had some guys to talk to him.’
“And I said, ‘well’” - -
Mr. Lucas: I told them I had one out there, but they said no, they ain’t got nothing out here like that. They didn’t have the murder out there.”
Mr. Smith: “No shit?”
Mr. Lucas: “I took them back where I had
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Bodies that evening and I asked old Pete over there out of Odessa, I said, you remember such and such, he worked out there, and he said, yeah, I know about it. But them guys, they didn’t know nothing.”
Mr. Smith: “Okay. I’ll tell you what I’ll do on that. If I call this buddy of mine that works for El Paso, I’m going to see if I can get him to - - apparently you’re all going to Sierra Blanca tomorrow?”
Mr. Lucas: “Yeah, as far as I know.”
Mr. Smith: “See if he can’t run down there and visit with you about that, because they - - I told him, I said, ‘Well,’ I said, ‘I’m going to be talking to Henry and , you know, was there’ - - I didn’t want to lead you on this.”
Mr. Lucas: “It was an old house. It’s not a” - -
Mr. Smith: “I don’t want to lead you on it, but is there anything else you done?”
Mr. Lucas: “Well, I had sex with her, there was sex and everything, but” - -
Mr. Smith: “Yeah. We’ll let them guys crack you. Appreciate that. You think” - -
Mr. Lucas: “Shoot, Deputy, I might be bluffing.”
Mr. Smith: “Ottis, that would fit with him?”
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Mr. Lucas: “No, Ottis wasn’t up there then.”
Mr. Smith: “No, I mean on this one of mine I was talking about.”
Mr. Lucas: “Oh, yeah. Yeah. I don’t want to say if wasn’t a guy there in Hobbs. It would be him.”
Mr. Smith: “Did he do some killing?”
Mr. Lucas: “Yeah, in Hobbs.”
MR. MOODY: That’s the end of it.
Q. (BY MR. MOODY) Now, that was the end of the discussion about the El Paso case?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, did you in any way threaten, intimidate, coerce Henry Lucas to give you the statement?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did you promise him anything in exchange for it?
A. No, sir.
Q. After obtaining the information that you had here regarding the Apodaca case, did you - - after finishing the interview with Henry Lucas, did you call El Paso?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Who did you talk to?
A. Called the police department dispatcher and
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I don’t know who what would have been. And I told them I needed to speak with Sergeant Apodaca and they got him hooked up with me.
Q. When you talked to Sergeant Apodaca, what do you recall telling him?
A. I told him that Lucas had told me he had done that murder. And then he asked me “What did he say?”
And I said, “Well, he took some jewelry.”
And he said, “What’d it look like?”
And I said, “Some turquoise stuff.”
And he asked me two or three things. And I told him that I hadn’t questioned him at that much detail, but there were scheduled to take him to Sierra Blanca tomorrow are that same day, it would have been, when I talked to him after midnight and that I would hook him up with the rangers there in Monahans and they could set up some way to go about meeting, talking to Lucas.
Q. Did you let Sergeant Apodaca talk to the rangers?
A. Yes, sir. I put the Ranger Clayton Smith on the phone with him and let them discuss the details of them meeting with Lucas.
Q. All right. Did you then - - When you had
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This tape - - Can you identify this tape as the original tape?
Yes, sir, it is. I put my initials on side A with the date and time.
Q. Did you have any further contact with Henry Lucas about this case after that?
A. No, sir.
Q. This tape recording is the extent of your conversations with Henry Lucas that night regarding Librada Apodaca?
A. Yes, sir.
MR. MOODY: Pass the witness.
MR. PONTON: May I approach the witness, Your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
Q. This tape, Lieutenant Smith, State’s Exhibit 6, I believe you previously just testified to Mr. Moody that those were your initials on it?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. This was a tape you had yourself in Monahans on the evening of June the 8th - - the evening of September 18th, 1984?
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Yes.
Q. When did you give this tape to anybody in El Paso?
A. It would have been June of 85, I believe, sir.
Q. What did you do with the tape between September of ’84 - - September 18thof 1984 and June of 1985?
A. Remained locked in a cabinet in my office.
Q. Who did you give it to in June of 1985?
A. I mailed it. A copy of the tape was made and mailed to Detective Perez of El Paso Police Department.
Q. what did you do with this original at that time in June of 1985?
A. I maintained it in my custody until we were out here the last time.
Q. When was that that you were out here the last time, do you recall?
A. It was when he fired his lawyer and didn’t never testify. I can’t remember the exact date on that, sir.
Q. Was that probably January of this year?
A. Yes, sir, I believe that’s right.
Q. Then at that time did you give this original
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to the DA’s office?
Yes, we gave it to Mr. Moody.
Q. Okay. We didn’t hear all of this tape.
MR PONTON: I want to play some other portions of it with your permission, Your Honor, because we just heard parts of it.
(At this time, a portion State’s Exhibit 6 was played with the following transcription: )
Mr. Lucas: “I don’t want to say there wasn’t a guy there in Hobbs that would be him.”
Mr. Smith: “Did he do some killing, the guy in Hobbs?”
Mr. Lucas: “Yes, sir, in Hobbs.”
Mr. Smith: “What was his name?”
Mr. Lucas: “He went by the name of Fred, but they had another name they told me he was.”
Mr. Smith: “Dallas PD know who he is?”
Mr. Lucas: “Yes, the sheriff down there.”
Mr. Smith: “The sheriff does? If we talk to him we might find out? That would be great if I could.”
Mr. Lucas: “He” - -
Mr. Smith: “How is everything going for you?”
Mr. Lucas: “Rough.”
Mr. Smith: “It’s a long time. When I
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talked to you, the last time we talked was in December.”
Mr. Lucas: “Yeah.”
Mr. Smith: “It snowed like hell.”
Mr. Lucas: “Yeah, I know.”
Mr. Smith: “Cold as hell. Coldest front we ever had in our lives.”
Mr. Lucas: “Yeah, I know. It started just as we got there almost, a little after we got there, turned cold.”
Mr. Smith: “Gosh almighty. You have been around some since then. I saw where you’d been in San Angelo and all that.”
Mr. Lucas: “Yeah. I’ve been in Florida, San Angelo, over here, back to California.”
Mr. Smith: “Do you want another cup of coffee?”
Mr. Lucas: “Yeah, I’ll take another cup of coffee, I imagine.”
Mr. Smith: “Is that coffee ready? Can I have one?”
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“He is going to get us some fresh cups. Well, I think” - -
Mr. Lucas: “Well, I think Ottis will be out here next month.”
Mr. Smith: “On the pretrial deal?”
Mr. Lucas: “Yeah.”
Mr. Smith: “I talked to him when they brought him up. I never even thought about this one, and I got to going back through my mind and looking around, I thought, well, I’ll ask and see on this, if it fit.”
Mr. Lucas: “I can remember that thing after you mentioned it. I remember him having that cup, but I can’t remember the - - Come to think about it, he did mention as accordion one time.”
Mr. Smith: “Would you mind scooting up? I don’t know if that mike is going to pick up that far or not. Thank you.”
Mr. Lucas: “It was - - I can remember him mentioning one. I don’t know whether he had one or what, but I do remember that now. But that cup, I definitely remember that. As far as I know, his wife messed it up. She got him told.”
Mr. Smith: “You said this deal here fits Ottis or was it that other dude that was over there
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in Hobbs that don’t live but about two blocks from where we found that car?”
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) Lieutenant, what case are you referring to there in the portion of that tape?
A. That Patrick Ryan case.
Q. That’s the case of the priest?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. In Odessa?
A. Yes.
Q. When you say on the tape that this deal sort of reflects that it could be like Ottis, did you have any of that file there with you when you were interviewing Henry Lucas?
A. The Ryan file?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. No, sir. I took the photograph of the priest in his car.
Q. Okay. You had that with you when you were interviewing Henry on the Ryan murder?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you have anything else of the Ryan file with you?
A. No, sir, I just tool those photographs with me.
Q. Okay. And these photographs were of a
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priest?
Yes, sir.
Q. And his car?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. How many photographs in all?
A. I think I had two photos of the priest and probably two of his car in his carport.
Q. How much more of that conversation is recorded, do you remember? How much of your interview with Henry is recorded on this tape? How much longer is that tape
A. Whenever that tape finishes, we are through. And the Texas Ranger Havrda began talking to him about a case that he was investigating.
Q. You testified, I believe, on direct testimony to Mr. Moody that your interview with Henry Lucas began approximately at 11:30 p.m. that night.
A. Somewhere in that neighborhood, yes, sir.
Q. This would be approximately midnight at this point in time on the tape?
A. Around 11:55 is when I marked the tape, yes, sir.
Q. At 11:55 is about the time when Henry mentioned the Librada Apodaca case?
A. No, it would have been a few minutes before
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that.
Q. Okay. So 11:55 was the end of the tape?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right. Then after the end of this tape, how long did you talk to Henry Lucas before Texas Ranger Havrda - -
A. H A V R D A, Havrda.
Q. Okay, Havrda. How long did you talk with Henry Lucas after you took this taped interview with him before Ranger Havrda talked to him?
A. Ranger Havrda came right in and began his interview and then I went out of the room. I believe he was recording his interview with Lucas in regards to another homicide, I believe.
Q. Do you know how long his interview went with Henry Lucas?
A. It would be pure speculation, sir. I had ridden over there with him. It was late. I called - - I was in the process of calling El Paso, and he was still visiting with him, I think. I went out and used the telephone to try and get in contact with these people out here.
Q. All right. Did you ride back toward Odessa with Ranger Havrda?
A. Yes, sir.
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Q. What time did you-all leave the Ward County sheriff’s office that night?
A. I don’t know, sir. I want to think it was around 1:00 or 1:30, but I’m not sure.
Q. Do you know what Henry Lucas had been doing that day of September 18th, 1984?
A. My own personal knowledge, we were in the courthouse in the sheriff’s department in a waiting room and I assumed that he was out with other agents.
Q. When did you arrive in the Ward County sheriff’s office that day?
A. We got there a little bit before 3:30 p.m.
Q. Had you previously been told by any Texas Rangers what Henry Lucas’ schedule was that day?
A. I had been told that morning that we had an appointment scheduled with him at 3:30, myself and Havrda.
Q. Who was - -
A. He would come by and pick me up and take me to where he was.
Q. Okay. And who was doing this, making these appointments for Henry Lucas to talk to law enforcement agents?
A. I don’t know. My appointment came through Ranger Havrda. I expressed I would like to talk to
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him on this Ryan deal, and he set up the appointment. I don’t know who he physically talked to on that.
Q. Do you know if he talked to Clayton Smith?
A. I don’t know, sir.
Q. Do you know Clayton Smith?
A. I do, sir.
Q. Was he in Ward County that day?
A. Yes, he was.
Q. What other Texas Rangers were in Ward County on September 18th, 1984, to your recollection?
A. Well, of course, Havrda, and I think there was another ranger out in Midland that was over there named Hodges, Charlie Hodges, but I don’t - - there may have been others, but I know the sheriff from Monahans was there, some other law enforcement people. But right now I couldn’t tell you who they all were. Several people there.
Q. It was an unusual event to have Henry Lucas there at the Ward County jail, wasn’t it? I mean, was something that was known among the local law enforcement officers. Is that correct?
A. I don’t know, sir. I wasn’t told until that day where we were going to meet with him, and I don’t know who-all was - - the people that were there obviously knew he was there, But I don’t know if
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everybody - - All the officers in Monahans may have been aware. I’m not sure.
Q. Can you give me any estimate on the total number of law enforcement officers there at the Ward County jail that afternoon and evening including yourself and the Texas Rangers and any local officers?
A. It would be a rough estimate on my part, and I’d say ten just because there were several people in this coffee lounge at any given time. I don’t know what their - - all of their business was.
Q. Why was it that you couldn’t talk to Henry Lucas at 3:30 and you ended up not talking to him until eight hours later at 11:30?
A. Someone else overran their appointment, obviously. It happened the last time before when I visited with him.
Q. And do you know who that person was?
A. No, sir. It would be speculation. I think Hodges, but I’m not sure.
Q. Was Hodges also investigating that Andrews murder?
A. Not to my knowledge, no, sir.
Q. Do you remember the murder that Hodges was there to investigate?
A. No, sir, I didn’t.
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Q. Do you know if he had gone out to any site of any alleged murder with Henry Lucas that day?
A. They had him out in the car, but I don’t know where they went.
Q. Was this someplace in Ward County, to your knowledge?
A. Sir, I don’t know.
Q. Okay. Did you get to the jail at about 3:30 that day?
A. It was a little bit before 3:30 because we were glad that we were going to get in relatively early where we could be through.
Q. Was Henry Lucas out in the field when you got there?
A. I didn’t see him. I assume that he was, sir.
Q. You were told that he wasn’t at the jail and you couldn’t see him at that time?
A. No, we weren’t told anything.
Q. Did you ask if you could see Henry Lucas when you got there?
A. No, sir. I just figured that whenever my time came they would say, “It’s your turn,” and I sat there and drank coffee.
Q. Who would they be that would say it would be your turn? Would it be the Texas Rangers?
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The rangers, yes, sir.
Q. Do you remember when Henry Lucas came in from the field?
A. I don’t know the exact time. I know that he had been back for awhile before we got to go in to see him and someone else was with him. I’m trying to remember who that was and I really can’t. I thought Hodges, but I know Charlie Hodges was with him that day and I can’t remember if it was that night or earlier that day when Hodges was with him.
Q. To your knowledge, was Henry Lucas in interviews with law agents all that day?
A. I would assume that he was, yes, sir.
Q. And was he in interviews with law enforcement agents all that evening up until the time you got to talk to him?
A. I don’t know about what he was doing all that evening. I just know that from 11:30 to midnight he was with me, in that time span.
Q. Was it your understanding, however, Lieutenant Smith, that before you talked to Henry that he was talking to either Ranger Hodges or somebody else about another case?
A. The reason I said Hodges - - I’m not trying to pin him down.
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Q. I understand it might not have been him.
A. I really didn’t pay attention. I know Hodges was there, but he was with another officer before I talked to him.
Q. Okay.
A. From another agency on another matter, I assume.
Q. All right. Now, did Henry Lucas have a lawyer there that day in Ward County?
A. No, sir, he did not.
Q. You testified earlier on direct testimony that you gave Henry Lucas his Miranda warnings or his Code of Criminal Procedure warnings before you started talking to him.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You said you read that from a card that you borrowed from one of the Texas Rangers?
A. From Havrda, yes, sir.
Q. Do you know if the other interviewers before you had similarly told Henry Lucas that?
A. I don’t know, sir. I wasn’t present.
Q. When did you begin this tape?
A. Right after we got in the room just probably within a matter of a couple minutes, said hello, how are you doing, got the card, started to read him his
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rights, had the tape turned on.
MR. PONTON: Let’s listen to the beginning, then.
Let the record reflect I rewound State’s Exhibit 6 to its very beginning and started it at that point.
(At this time, a portion of State’s Exhibit 6 was played with the following transcription: )
Mr. Smith: “So, what, was gay hung around Hobbs some. He was from Denver City. They left out of Hobbs with some folks and wound up at a local one-story motel down there on Second Street. That’s him. I don’t know.
Mr. Lucas: “I don’t think so.”
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) Lieutenant, that part that we just heard about that old boy from Hobbs, was that the very beginning of your conversations with Henry Lucas?
A. No, sir, it was not.
Q. What conversations did you have with Henry Lucas that day before we heard that on tape?
A. We talked about the priest murder, period.
Q. Did you record the Miranda warnings to Henry Lucas that day?
A. Yes, sir, I believe I did.
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Q. Please explain to me why I didn’t hear them when I played that tape from the beginning just then.
A. On June the 17th, 1985, Detective Perez called me and said that Mr. Lucas was claiming that I had fed him all kinds of information about this case and that my tape recording of this conversation had become an issue in this matter. They needed the copy of the tape and a statement from me on what had happened.
I then contacted city hall or one of our detectives told me that we had a machine available that would reproduce tapes. I then contacted the city manager’s office to ascertain who in our agency could do that for me.
Around 11:00 that morning, I took the original tape over the city hall, and there is a man there by the name of Bill Williamson who works in building services for the city of Odessa who is charged with the responsibility of reproducing tapes in a sound room for the city counsel and is an employee of the city of Odessa.
He came over to the sound room, took me up there and installed this tape into a machine and was beginning to trans- - - record a copy that I could sent out here to El Paso.
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While he was doing that, I looked down and I saw that he had - - a red light was showing and I looked to see what it was and it showed record. I said, “Are you erasing the tape?”
He said, “Well, I haven’t done this that often. I don’t know.”
And I said, “Let’s stop it and see.” I said, “If this record button is on, what’s going on here? I don’t - - If you got record going, you’re going to be erasing.”
He stopped the tape, played it back, and the first, I think, two minutes had been waxed out. And that’s what happened to it.
Q. All right. And there is no other copy of this tape that reflects that you gave Henry Lucas his warnings?
A. no, sir, this is it. I didn’t review the tape before I took it over there. I just took the tape. I assumed the man knew what he was doing. It’s my fault for not checking into it, but that’s what happened to it. And - -
Q. Did you make more than one copy that day?
A. No, sir, I did not.
Q. What was that fellow’s name who was helping you?
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His name was Bill Williamson. He is still employed there.
Q. Now, you testified earlier that you had interviewed Henry Lucas in December of 1983. Is that correct?
A. I believe that’s correct, yes, sir.
Q. What day in December, do you recall?
A. No, sir. I just remember the snowstorm is what - -
Q. Was it early December or late December?
A. I’m going to say it was before Christmas, but I’m not - - I was just promoted to lieutenant first week of December and it was a week or so after that, and that’s the time frame.
Q. Then, what case did you ask Henry Lucas about in December of ’83?
A. We had a lady that was murdered at a mall that we had some questions on and was found in a drainage ditch by a mall. Sex after death appeared to have been involved. And also Beverly Latrelle case.
Q. When when was Beverly Latrelle killed, do you recall?
A. I don’t have the exact date on it, no, sir.
Q. Do you know when the woman by the shopping
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mall was killed?
I don’t know the exact date on it, either, sir. I don’t have that available with me.
Q. Where did you talk to Henry Lucas in December of ’83?
A. It would have been in Midland, Texas.
Q. Was he there in the company of the Texas Rangers?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And had he been brought to Midland to be interviewed concerning Midland area cases?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Were some of the same Texas Rangers there with him in December of ’83 that you saw in September of ’84 in Ward County? Was Buster Collins there?
A. I don’t know, sir.
Q. Clayton Smith?
A. I think he was, yes, sir.
Q. Havrda?
A. Havrda was with him, yes, sir.
Q. Havrda. And who is that other ranger from Midland?
A. Hodges.
Q. Hodges. Was he there?
A. Yes, sir.
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Q. Can you recall anyone else?
A. The Sergeant of the rangers was over there, also.
Q. Bobby Prince?
A. No. Well, I say no. I don’t remember seeing him, but another, the Midland sergeant, Bob Favor.
Q. Do you know how long Henry was in Midland that day?
A. No, sir. I know that we were late getting to talk to him again and a snowstorm had come up and they had to leave.
Q. Where did they go with Henry? Did they take him back to Williamson County?
A. I don’t know, sir. I think they did. I think that Sheriff Boutwell was there, also.
Q. In your interview with Henry Lucas that day, did you tape record that interview?
A. I think parts of it were recorded. I’d just have to review that file and I don’t have it with me, sir.
Q. Do you think that there is - - at least port of that interview was tape recorded and that tape might be in your file?
A. Yes, sir.
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Q. Would you be willing to send to Ms. Sipes and me copies of that file and copies of that tape when you get back?
A. Which case, sir?
Q. The case, sir, that you said that you - -
A. In Latrelle?
Q. Yes, sir. What other case - -
A. I have no objection if my district attorney doesn’t. It’s an indicated case, and I don’t think he would have a problem and I’ll send you everything we have got, if it’s not any problem.
Q. Do you know if they are going to try Henry there?
A. I don’t know, sir.
Q. He is indicted for the Latrelle case?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. When you were questioning Henry Lucas in December of ’83, where were you questioning Henry Lucas?
A. We were at an apartment complex over in Midland.
Q. Why were you at an apartment complex in Midland rather than at the Midland sheriff’s office?
A. I think that they wanted to insure privacy or secrecy where the press wouldn’t get ahold of it
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and have a bunch of problems of trying to interview him.
Q. Isn’t it a fact Henry Lucas got too cold there at that jail because of that cold front and you-all had to take him someplace where he would be more comfortable?
A. I never knew he was in jail there, sir.
Q. Okay.
A. I sat in that apartment all afternoon to see him. I don’t know where he was.
Q. Did you ever go to Georgetown to see Henry Lucas?
A. No, sir.
Q. What procedures did you have to go through in December of ’83 to interview Henry Lucas? Let me ask my question first. Was that the first time you ever interviewed Henry Lucas?
A. Yes, sir, it was.
Q. Was that the first time you ever tried to interview Henry Lucas?
A. Myself personally, yes.
Q. When you say myself, yourself personally,
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had other members of your department tried to interview Henry Lucas prior to that time?
We had another man that interviewed him on the Latrell deal, I think, in Montague County.
Q. Do you know when he interviewed him on the Latrell deal?
A. I don’t know the date no, sir.
Q. Please tell me the procedures you had to go through personally in December of ’83 to be able to interview Henry Lucas in Midland.
A. I believe a ranger, I think it was Havrda, again called and let us know that he was going to be available and had set us up to come in and talk to him.
Q. And when Havrda called you, did he say what you had to do to be able to see Henry as far as when you had to be there or what you had to do or what did he tell you?
A. He just said he was going to be here and took us to this apartment and we sat and waited for Henry to come there.
Q. So then Havrda made all the arrangements with you?
A. I think he did, sir. On that occasion, he was with me and in that apartment I believe he would
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have been the one I was talking to.
Q. You were there to talk to Henry Lucas that day about the Latrell murder?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Have you ever talked - - had you talked with Havrda or any other Texas Rangers regarding that Latrell murder?
A. I believe that Havrda went with my man to Montague on that murder.
Q. Okay. Who was your man?
A. It would have been Detective Billy Hammett.
Q. When did Billy Hammett go to Montague with Havrda?
A. It was right after this first started when Henry was first in jail up there, and someone called our agency and said that he had told them about a murder in Odessa.
Q. Do you recall who called your agency?
A. No, sir, I don’t.
Q. The records would indicate that Henry Lucas was arrested June 11th, 1983, in Montague County, Texas, by Texas Ranger Phil Ryan and Montague County Sheriff W. F. Conway. Do you recall if that was in June or July of 1983 when you would have gone up there?
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Sir, I don’t have that information available to me as far as the dates and stuff. And like I said, that file, if my DA will let me, I’ll send you the whole thing. I’m not well versed on that right now to be able to discuss it with you.
Q. How long did your interview with Henry Lucas take in December?
A. I’m going to say an hour and a half or two hours.
Q. How much of that interview was tape recorded?
A. Sir, I don’t know. I would have to review that file.
Q. All right. Had you ever talked with any members of the El Paso Police Department regarding and El Paso area cases prior to June of 1984?
A. No, sir.
Q. Okay.
A. Now, what you said, any cases, that’s in - - you’re spanning a 14 year career, so that’s - -
Q. Well, let me ask you this. Had you been in contact at any time within the last five years with any El Paso Police Department Officers or any El Paso sheriff’s office officers regarding and El Paso area homicides? So that would extend back to, say, 1981, if you could rack your memory. I know that’s a
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pretty broad request, but - - in other words, if they had asked you to assist them.
That’s a question that has no - - I mean, somebody could have called me and said we were looking for so and so down here on a homicide and it wouldn’t have made an impact on me. I mean, that’s - -
Q. I understand that. I’m not trying to - -
A. You’re talking about a specific homicide?
Q. Well, I’m about to ask you that. I’m not trying to ask you an unfair question. Let me ask you the other way. Let me ask you specifically and then we will go on from there.
When was the first time you ever talked to Detective Benito Perez from the El Paso Police Department about anything?
I’m going to have to say it would have been when they came out there.
Q. That would be in June of ’84?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What about Jimmy Apodaca?
A. Be the same thing.
Q. Do you recall ever working with them on any other investigations prior to June of ’84?
A. No, sir.
Q. Do you recall working with Greg Lucas on any
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case prior to that time?
No, sir, I don’t.
Q. Do you recall receiving any inquiries about the Apodaca case prior to June of ’84?
A. No, sir.
Q. How much time did you spend with Jimmy Apodaca and Benito Perez in June of ’84 when they came to Odessa to talk to the witness who might have had information regarding that Rodriquez fellow who was in the flyer?
A. I want to say several hours just around them. They were in with the - - whoever they were talking to alone. I wasn’t in there when they talked to the guy.
Q. Did - -
A. I met Apodaca on one other occasion, in ’81, I believe. October of ’81 came to my mind, of that will answer your question.
Q. Okay.
A. I met a group of detectives out here in their CAP room and I didn’t remember him until I saw him again in June. But that was like, I’m so and so, and I still had trouble with his name as far as who he was.
Q. What was the occasion of your visit to the CAP room in 1981?
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My lieutenant brought me out here to look at their systems for working different cases as far as homicides, property crimes and everything. We were just looking at the paper flow and things like that.
Q. Okay. How much time did you spend out here in ’81?
A. Be two days, day and a half actually, driving out.
Q. How much time would you have spent with Jimmy Apodaca on that date?
A. No time. Like I said, there was a roomful of men. Apparently they have a meeting every morning, and we were introduced to the whole group, my lieutenant and I. This is so and so, and not being out here, they said, this is my lieutenant and introduced me and we were introduced to all the detectives at one time.
Q. In June when Jimmy Apodaca and Benito Perez were there in Odessa, did they spend the night there?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you-all go out and eat dinner that night?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you-all go eat breakfast the next morning?
A. I went to work. I don’t know if they did or
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not. I had work.
Q. Did you see them the next day?
A. I don’t think I did, sir.
THE COURT: Mr. Ponton, let’s get to a stopping place so we can take a little break here.
MR. PONTON: Okay. I think about a couple more minutes I’ll probably be done, Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. Go right ahead.
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) You said that you called Jimmy Apodaca in September of 1984, September 18th, to tell him you had an appointment that day to talk to Henry Lucas?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You called him that morning before you went to Monahans that afternoon?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you and Jimmy discuss any of the details of this case in that telephone conversation?
A. No, sir. I told him I didn’t want to know anything about it. I really didn’t want to be involved in it, to get down to it.
Q. Did he offer you some details and you tell him that you didn’t want to hear them?
A. No, sir.
Q. Then you called Jimmy Apodaca that night
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after your interview with Henry Lucas, didn’t you?
Yes, sir.
Q. That would have been after midnight?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. In Odessa or Monahans - -
A. Monahans time.
Q. And I guess after 11:00 p.m. in El Paso time?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What do you recall Jimmy Apodaca saying when you told him that Henry Lucas had said he was involved in this axe murder?
A. He said, “What did he say?”
Q. Yeah. Do you recall what he said?
A. That’s what I’m saying, He asked me, “What did he say?”
Q. Oh I see.
A. And I said he said he had done it. And he said, “What else?”
I said, “well, he took some jewelry, some turquoise jewelry and said she was a small, older woman and that he had - - I can’t remember if I told him about the rape part or not. I may or may not have.
But then I told him that I had been told that they were going to Sierra Blanca the next day
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And that - - or it would have been that day. I’m confused. But - - and that I would hook him up with the ranger that was there that was going to take him there and maybe they could get an appointment to see him and talk to him themselves.
Q. Was there anything else?
A. No, not that I can recall, sir.
Q. Did you ever receive any materials from the Department of Public Safety regarding their investigation into the Henry Lucas affair?
A. There is - -
Q. The is like a logbook and stuff like that?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was that made available to you before you asked Henry Lucas about the Odessa cases or the Midland cases?
A. No, sir. I think we had already been involved in those two things and they sent out a rather large book. I didn’t get it personally at first. One of my detectives named Long got it from one of the rangers. He got two of them. He gave me one and kept one, I believe.
MR. PONTON: I’m going to want to ask him a few questions about that, Judge, so this might be a good place to break.
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THE COURT: Well, let’s take a recess for about 10 or 15 minutes.
(A recess was taken.)
THE COURT: Be seated.
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) Detective Smith, when you interviewed Henry Lucas on September 18th, 1984, was there any kind of log or any kind of sign-in sheet or anything of that nature you had to sign when you went to interview Henry?
A. I think there was, sir. I don’t know if it was before or after. I think they had something or they asked - - one of the rangers asked me questions and was filling out something, I think.
Q. Do you recall what kind of form or what kind of document that was?
A. No, sir, I don’t.
Q. Was that in a document that you signed or was that a document that the Texas Rangers made notes on regarding the case you were there to see Henry about?
A. I think the rangers took the information from me from whoever they were talking to. I would be misleading you if I said that I didn’t do it. Like I said, we were late in the night, and if we did that - - I vaguely remember having some kind of form
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there that they may have filled out.
Q. Okay. During the break I handed you a copy of what is referred to as the old task force synopsis which is a voluminous document generated by the Department of Public Safety Henry Lucas Task Force, and what it contains is the synopses that cases Henry Lucas said he was involved in. Have you ever seen that before?
A. Sir, I don’t know if this is exactly like the one I have or not.
Q. That’s what I wanted to ask you, because you told me earlier that you had gotten some kind of document from the DPS and - -
A. I don’t believe there was a much information. There may have been, but just from my memory - - I don’t have that thing with me - - but I don’t believe there was - - there may have been this much, but I don’t recall it being that detailed.
Q. Okay. Then what all were the murders that you interrogated Henry Lucas about? Latrell?
A. Latrell and the lady at the mall.
Q. Did she have a name?
A. Sir, my mind has gone blank on that. I try to put those things behind me.
Q. My recollection of what you testified about
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this morning is that you had questioned Henry Lucas about Beverly Latrell?
Yes, sir.
Q. And the woman by the shopping mall that was found in the ditch?
A. I can’t recall her name right this minute. I’ll probably think of it the minute you ask me something else.
Q. And that priest from 1981?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Can you recall any others?
A. The Apodaca one, naturally. I can’t recall any other specific one, sir.
Q. All right. You stated earlier that the defense lawyer for the man accused of killing the priest had raised the point that Henry Lucas was possibly in Odessa when that priest was murdered?
A. In the hall, not in the courtroom.
Q. Did you ever hear that from a defense lawyer for a man that was being investigated for killing that priest?
A. Pardon me, sir?
Q. Did you ever hear anything about that from somebody representing a man accused of killing the priest?
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That’s who it was.
Q. Who was that lawyer?
A. It was John Clip and John Smith, and I think both of them were throwing that out at me, that Lucas and Toole were in the area and I should check them out, that their man was innocent.
Q. And this priest, what date did he die. Do you recall?
A. Yes, sir, it was December the 24th or 23rd of ’81. It was the 23rd or 24th, one, right before Christmas.
Q. Okay. Beverly Latrell disappeared on March 13th, 1981, didn’t she?
A. I believe the date here is 3-3 of ’81 on that thing you have given me here.
MR. PONTON: May I approach the witness, Your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes, sir.
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) I’m going to show you a document that have gotten from the Latrell file from Mr. Moody, which is a DPS memorandum dated 6-24-85 that I’ll mark for identification purposes as Defense 7.
(Defendant’s exhibit marked, D-7.)
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) This document states that
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it’s a DPS interoffice memorandum dated 6-24-85 regarding Beverly Joyce Lutrell murder to Captain H. R. Block from G. E. Powell, captain of the Texas Ranger Company E.
And it starts off as a synopsis of the case, doesn’t it, and Lucas’ involvement?
Yes, sir.
Q. Then here on this third page it states that a Dallas Times Herald article shows that the date of the offense as March 3rd, 1981, but that the correct date of the offense in March 12th, and 13th of 1981.
Do you have any independent recollection of the date that Beverly Lutrell was killed?
No, sir. If I had that file out and if I had known we were going to get into this issue, I would have brought me - -
Q. I’m not going to stay on this issue long?
A. If I had known we were going to talk about Latrull, I would have studied the file and been prepared to tell you dates and times and places, but I was not aware - -
Q. I understand. I’m not trying to trick you.
A. I couldn’t tell you one way or another if that is right or wrong.
Q. What I’m going to show you now I’m
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going to mark for identification purposes as Defense Exhibit 8 are Xerox copies of records from the Commercial Metals Company in Florida dated March 5th, ’81; March 9th, 1981, March 11th, 1981, and March 13th, 1981; March 16th, ’81 and March 19th, 1981.
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) These documents are copies of the scrap metal sales receipts to certain persons. Could you please read to the Court this one that is dated3-13-1981 and - -
A. What do you want me to do?
Q. If you could please read the customer and the amount and the signature.
A. It’s on Commercial Metals Company, Florida division, copy-something. It says, “Customer, H. Lucas,” L U C A S, “620 L.B.S.,” pounds, and it says, “material,” below that, “Tin, steel.” To the right of that, some kind of initials, Check number 839, paid by,” and “X” in “cash,” and at the bottom is says, “620 net pounds at 1.25 per CWT, $7.75,” I believe. And number “128476.”
(Defendant’s exhibit marked, D-8.)
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) Whose signature does that appear to be at the bottom of that?
A. It’s got the signature Henry Lucas on that.
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Q. One last thing, Lieutenant. I have here what I’ll refer to - - it’s a transcription of the El Paso part of the interview you took with Henry Lucas on September 18th.
A. Okay.
Q. It’s dated - - It’s an El Paso Department supplement dated 9-18-84, page one of three. And here at the beginning it talks about JS being Jerry Smith and HLL being Henry Lee Lucas, and it goes through three or four lines of you asking Henry about an old Mexican lady chopped up with an axe in her house, a grey-headed old lady and then two or three other questions and answers.
And would you please read the line by Henry Lucas that I have marked there with an arrow right here?
Okay, sir. “That’s what I call north of El Paso.”
Q. That’s what Henry Lucas was saying to you where this offense occurred, wasn’t it, when Henry Lucas says, “That’s what I call north of El Paso”?
A. I hadn’t asked him about the area yet, but that’s what this says here, yes.
Q. Based upon your recollection of that interview and being there when Henry Lucas states,
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“That’s what I call north of El Paso,” isn’t he referring to that being the location of this axe murder?
I assume that it is, yes, sir. Again, I hadn’t asked him where yet. That’s down further in the conversation.
MR. PONTON: I pass the witness, Your Honor.
MR. MOODY: A few questions, Your Honor.
MR. PONTON: At this time, Your Honor, I would offer Defense 7 and 8 into evidence, if there is no objection by the state.
MR. MOODY: No objection for the purposes of this hearing.
THE COURT: Be admitted.
What is 7?
MR. PONTON: 7 is Department of Public Safety interoffice memorandum to Captain H. R. Brock, Senior Ranger Captain, subject Beverly Latrell murder. And 8 was their Commercial Metals Company, Florida division.
(State’s exhibit marked, S-7.)
BY MR. MOODY:
q. Now, I’ll show you again what has been
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Marked for identification purposes as State’s Exhibit 7, and ask you did you specifically ask him - - of course, this is the three-page transcript of the portion of the tape recording in this - - in regards to Librada Apodaca. Is that correct?
All right, yes, sir.
Q. Now, did you ask him there a question about where was the area of the crime?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What was his response?
A. Well, it’s where you go through Mexico, all over, sort of over a hill and back out and you circle back around towards the house, was at back, in there.
Q. He mentioned you go through Mexico?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And then this portion here where you’re trying to confirm with him your comment, “You pretty sure that axe is yours?” And then his comment, “Oh, yeah.”
And then what are the next two comments there, first by you and then the defendant’s response?
“You pretty sure that axe was yours?”
“Oh, yeah.”
“See, what happened, ah, I kind of - - the two guys that didn’t get to talk to you, and we were just
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talking about some cases and they brought this up. And I said, “Well, heck, that fits with them,’ Said, ‘no, we had some guys talk to you’ and, uh, I said, ‘They didn’t talk to me about that one.’”
The next one here?
Q. That’s his response.
A. “Well, I told them” - - “I told them I had gone out there, but they said, ‘No, we ain’t got nothing on you.’ They didn’t have a murderer out there. What’s to say it ain’t murders out here? I took them back where I had bodies that evening and I asked old Pete over there out of Odessa, I said, ‘You remember such and such? She was working out there?’
“And he said, ‘Yeah.’ And he said, ‘I know about it and them guys they didn’t, nothing.’”
Q. Okay. So he was relating to you that he told the other two officers something about the case, that case, tried to show him that case. Is that correct?
A. What he saw, yes, sir. I believe so, yes, sir.
Q. All right. And then, obviously I don’t want to go too much into the Beverly Latrell case with you, because you have already stated you don’t have the independent recollection of that case without
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reviewing it. But the defense attorney did show you some documents from that case, and I’ll show you, I think, the same document, one of those.
Would you go ahead and read the sentence here about how it was according to DPS memo that Lucas became a suspect?
“Lucas became a suspect in the Latrell murder in June of 1983 when Lucas told Ranger Ryan and the sheriff of Montaque County that he had strangled a bum in a trailer house in Odessa, Texas.”
Q. All right. Then it goes back through the items that were confirmed after conversations with Henry Lucas both by, I believe, Texas Ranger and Odessa Police Department who interviewed Lucas, then, on two separate occasions.
In regards to the following, is the information given by Lucas - - And what are those? What are those pieced of information that related back to the Latrell case, according to this defense exhibit?
“Lucas, when shown pictures of victim and other women, victim’s pictures stated, ‘That’s her. I killed her. I’m positive.’”
Q. In other words, he was able to pick her out of a photo lineup?
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Yes, sir.
Q. Then what is the next one?
A. “Lucas stated he remembered chewing victim’s nipple. Victim’s right breast almost severed with tooth imprints on the breast and nipple.”
Q. What is number three?
A. “Lucas stated he stabbed victim more than once. Victim stabbed at least twice in the throat area.
Q. And what about the next portion?
A. “Lucas said victim was left naked on the bed.”
Q. These facts were all verified based on the case, is that correct, according to the memorandum?
A. Yes, yes.
Q. Just go down through, what, the 14 points of confirmation?
A. “Lucas said he strangled victim with telephone or lamp cord. Lucas stated that he had sex with victim. Autopsy confirmed victim had sex with someone.
“Lucas stated he went to the house and asked for something to eat and victim prepared a meal for him. There was food prepared to eat on the table.
“There was no forced entry to trailer. Lucas stated he left cigarettes, Pall Mall, at the scene.
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Pack of Pall Mall cigarettes were found at the scene.
“Lucas stated victim was wearing a robe when he arrived and when he left the robe was hanging on the bedpost. Robe and nightgown were found hanging on the bedpost.
“Lucas drew which was the crime scene.
“12-15-83, Lucas driven around Odessa abd turned into a mobile house parking lot and Lucas sat erect and stated that this was the park where he killed the woman with the telephone cord. Lucas knew that there was a small road behind the trailer park which leads to a large junkyard. While in the park on the night of 12-15-83 Lucas pointed out the location, stated he didn’t recognize the trailer. Lucas stated the victim’s trailer was older. Unknown to Lucas the victim’s trailer had been moved out after the offense. Lucas stated the trailer was bluish color. The trailer was yellow. However, at that time it sat under a mercury vapor light which made the color a bluish-yellow at night.”
Q. And then the last paragraph up there, defense exhibit - - in regards to their Defense Exhibit 8 which talked about the scrap metal records which you read from, what does this defense exhibit
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conclude with?
This last paragraph here?
Q. Yes.
A. “Dallas Times Herald article shows Lucas sold scrap metal in Florida on March 11th, 1981, and March 13, 1981. Writer has been advised that the Lucas signature on these two receipts appear to be signed by two different parties. If this is correct, then one or both are forgeries.”
Q. All right. And then a DPS lab report which comes from that file is dated way back, March 25th, 1981, way before Henry Lucas was in custody. Is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And the last paragraph where DPS lab was advising Odessa PD way back in 1981 in regards to the secretor or nonsecretor status of the suspect in that case, what did they respond?
A. “Therefore, the suspect is possibly a nonsecretor, 15 percent of the population.”
Q. Okay.
A. The whole thing?
Q. Yeah, the whole thing.
A. I’m sorry. “Winston cigarette butts one-inch long, orange paper filters from a Viceroy
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cigarette butts one-inch long. Orange filters did not respond to secretor blood group testing. Therefore, the suspect is possibly a nonsecretor, 15 percent of the population.”
Q. All right. And you know Henry Lucas is a nonsecretor, right, based on your prior investigations of him?
A. Yes, sir, we have been told that.
MR. MOODY: Pass the witness.
MR. PONTON: I have a couple more questions, Your Honor.
Q. Detective Smith, you testified earlier that you did not like to take confessions from persons unless it were your case. Is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And that was because, as you testified, you wouldn’t have knowledge of the details of that case unless it was your case and you were investigating it yourself?
A. Right.
Q. Isn’t it your practice to share some of the details of the case with the suspect to see if he can
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Confirm or deny some of those details when you’re going through sort of a preinterview type process?
No, sir, not in that instance.
Q. But in other murder investigations, for instance, you may have been involved in?
A. No, sir.
Q. Where you interrogated suspects?
A. No, sir.
Q. You never share any details of that offense with that suspect to see whether that suspect knows anything about it?
A. I’m trying to elicit details more than share details.
Q. Didn’t you testify earlier that you took some photographs of Beverly Latrell to show Henry Lucas?
A. No, sir, I didn’t take the photographs.
Q. But there were some photographs, weren’t there?
A. According to this memo, and my investigator took photos, a photo lineup of several women to Montaque, Texas - - or Montaque County.
Q. Okay. Do you know if he took any other information about the case with him?
A. I’m assuming they tool the file with them,
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sir.
Q. All right. And is it not your practice to give certain details to suspects like Henry Lucas to see if they even know anything about the case?
A. I would say that this particular case is completely different than most homicide suspects that I have ever dealt with, and it would have been handled in a different manner than most other homicides.
Q. Are you talking about the Latrell homicide or the Apodaca homicide?
A. I’m talking about the manner in which one would interview a suspect in a murder case as opposed to interviewing this particular suspect.
Q. Okay. Tell me how you would interview a suspect in a regular homicide.
A. Well, when you find a person, if you don’t know whether they are going to cooperate, what their, let’s say - - Can I give you a hypothetical situation?
Q. Please do, Lieutenant.
A. Let’s say you murdered that lady sitting next to you.
Q. Okay.
A. I didn’t know who you were.
Q. Okay.
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And through evidence and investigations I determined that you were probably the person.
Q. All right.
A. But I don’t know that for a fact.
Q. All right.
A. You’re an individual out of many hundreds of thousands in this city, and I have come to you and I talk to you.
Now, there are going to be certain things that you are going to know about that homicide that no one else will. But I don’t know you. I have no background on you, so I’m going to have to approach you from a standpoint completely different as to someone like that man over there who was cooperating with law enforcement people. And on this particular instance he says, “I didn’t kill the priest. I killed the lady in El Paso.”
You approach it in a different manner. The man has been around the country helping people. You don’t have to approach him from a standpoint like I would have to approach you as an unknown individual.
Q. Let’s continue on with your hypothetical on that. Let’s say you were approaching me to question me about murdering someone and you’d never met me before. Wouldn’t you sit down with me and try to
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Just sort of break the ice a little bit, try to get to know me a little bit, get me comfortable with you so I would be comfortable in talking with you about this?
I had - - If I had never been with you before and you were an unknown and had not cooperated with the whole countryside, yes, sir, I would.
Q. You would essentially want to make friends with me as much as possible so that you could get a relaxed type of interview from me to - - so maybe you could find out more about my involvement in an alleged homicide?
A. Yes, sir. If you were an unknown to me and had never before been around and had not helped the United States out basically with clearing murders, then I would approach it from a completely different standpoint.
Q. But isn’t it true, Lieutenant, that you did that same type of thing with Henry Lucas here?
A. No, sir, it’s not.
Q. That you didn’t try to be friendly toward him and be pleasant toward him and try to do whatever you could to make him comfortable while you were talking to him and things like that?
A. During the interview, yes, sir, we did.
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Q. And didn’t I hear you on that tape at the end of the tape tell Henry that you would go get him a fresh cup of coffee?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. And did you get him coffee before the interview began? Do you recall that?
A. We had some brought in, I believe, during that time at the first of it. We brought cups in.
Q. Do you recall whether he was given any food during that period of time?
A. Not while he was with me, no, sir.
Q. He wasn’t handcuffed at the time you were interviewing him, was he?
A. No, sir.
Q. Now, if you were interviewing me as an unknown suspect for a case that you had certain details about, would you ask me if I knew certain details of that offense to see? You know, for instance, let’s say you said, “Mr. Ponton, do you know anything about killing this blond-headed woman last month? And I didn’t say anything. Would you then ask me, “Well, Mr. Ponton, do you know if you were around this house at this certain part of town last month?”
Would you ask me that? How would you do
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that, Lieutenant?
The way I would do it, sir, is - - Having had established in my mind that you were the person?
Q. Yes.
A. Completely different from the situation of Mr. Lucas.
Q. I know that. That’s why I’m asking this.
A. I would have already been convinced enough to approach you from that standpoint and I would insure that you felt that I was confident that I knew you had done it.
Q. Okay.
A. I would not ask you, “Did you do it?” because I would be merely fishing, and you as a murderer would know that I was merely fishing and you would tell me to go jump in the lake. I would have to approach you from the standpoint, “I know you killed that lady sitting next to you. Let’s talk about it. Let’s get it worked out.”
In his case, I have to ask, “Did you?” He’s killing people. He’s killed people. “Did you kill this one?”
“No, I didn’t.”
In your case, a hypothetical situation, I’m going to approach you from a wholly different
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Psychological standpoint. I don’t know what your reaction is going to be when I start coming to you about this murder. I’m going to have to talk to you about, “Did you do it?” as opposed to, “I know you did it. Let’s straighten it out. Let’s confess to this thing and get it cleared up.”
Q. But whether you’re talking about me as a hypothetical or Henry Lucas in reality, before you do any interview you’re going to some homework, aren’t you? You’re going to - -
A. What do you mean by homework, sir?
Q. Well, if I were an unknown suspect, you just testified that you would have made sure in your mind that I was good for it and that you’d been able to connect me to the crime as an unknown suspect. You would have done that before you even talked to me. Isn’t that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you would have done some of that same homework with Henry Lucas before you interviewed him, wouldn’t you? I mean, you’re not going to talk to Henry Lucas - -
A. Well, sir, to start off with, they said he killed a woman in a trailer house, okay?
Q. Okay.
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Then you go talk to him and say, “Did you kill a woman in trailer house?”
“Yes, I did.”
Q. But my point to you, Lieutenant, is - -
A. I don’t understand your point. You’re using a completely different situation. I’m sure you already know that.
Q. I do and I’m not trying to confuse you, and if you don’t understand my question, please let me know.
What I’m making a point of is that before you would talk to Henry Lucas about killing Beverly Latrell in a trailer house, you would have gone and looked at the details of the Beverly Latrell murder, wouldn’t you?
And I assume the man that went up there did.
Q. That’s right.
A. Okay.
Q. And then you would have investigated whatever Henry Lucas has previously said about that, wouldn’t you have?
A. Pardon me, sir? I just blew my eardrums with this deal rubbing on my jacket.
Q. My question to you Lieutenant, is before you would question - - I know you said another man
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initially questioned Henry Lucas about Latrell.
Yes.
Q. But if you were going to do it, you would have tried to find out whatever Henry Lucas had previously said he knew about that murder, wouldn’t you have, to be able to look at the case file and say, “Well, Henry is right there, he is wrong there, he is right there.” You would have tried to find that out before going to interview him, wouldn’t you?
A. The problem that I’ve got with your approach on this question is it’s not allowing me a degree of explanation on this particular interview. Which interview are you referring to?
Q. Well, let’s talk about the priest’s murder which is on this tape that is State’s Exhibit 6.
Before you would have interviewed Henry Lucas about that priest’s murder, you would have looked at the case file about the murder and familiarized yourself with the details about that murder, wouldn’t you have?
If I was going to get a confession for the purpose of presenting in court, yes, sir, I would have.
Q. And when you asked Henry Lucas about that priest, had you ever received any information before
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that he had been involved in that?
No, sir, I had not.
Q. Okay. So let’s deal with a different situation, then, Latrell. Had there been a flyer sent out prior to you-all’s contact with Henry Lucas seeking information about the death - - about her death?
A. I’m going to have to look at that file to answer that. I would not be sure if there was one or not?
Q. Do you think there may have been one?
A. I don’t know, sir.
Q. All right.
A. The problem with Latrell, to answer this question, I was not the originating investigator during the whole thing.
Q. Yes, sir.
A. So I can’t tell you verbatim what is in that file. And when I’m given an opportunity to review it, I’ll let you - -
Q. I understand. And like I say, I’m not trying to trip you up at all on that.
The fact is, for instance, regarding the priest’s murder, do you just ask Henry Lucas id he killed a priest or do you have to ask Henry Lucas,
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“Well, Henry, do you remember being in Odessa? Do you remember being around this part of town? Do you remember a man who is dressed like this? Do you remember” - - Do you have to share some details there to be able to - -
Sir, to answer your question, If I understand what you’re saying, for me to get a confession - -
Q. Yes, sir.
A. - - on this priest’s murder.
Q. Yes, sir.
A. Had he been involved? Had he said, “Yes, I killed that priest” - -
Q. Yes, sir.
A. Had he been involved? Had he said, “Yes, I killed that priest” - -
Q. Yes, sir.
A. - - then I would have been in a position at that time to take an oral confession or a typed confession because of my knowledge about that offense.
Q. Isn’t it a fact, Lieutenant, that you shared information about these cases with Henry Lucas when you were interviewing him on September 18th, 1984, in Ward County?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. For instance, the first paragraph of the supplement that I have on what is said here on that tape recording this Apodaca murder, you state,
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“Another deal I wanted to ask you about which the people out of El Paso visited with me and asked me to visit with you and see right before - - right before you got locked up and probably a week or so had an old Mexican lady chopped up with an axe in her house, a grey-headed old lady.”
That to me tells me, Lieutenant, that you were telling Henry Lucas some of the details about the Apodaca murder at the very beginning to try to see if he was familiar with what you were talking about. Is that correct?
Yes, sir.
Q. Okay.
MR. PONTON: Your Honor, at this time I would to play the entire tape that he took from Henry Lucas on that day. Your Honor heard the tail end of it where he confessed - - where he mentions killing Librada Apodaca and just the very beginning where the tape was erased, allegedly erased where there was no Miranda warnings.
What I would like to play now is the rest of it which is about 10 or 15 minutes of what was in between so we can get a sense of the whole, complete interview that day in relationship between the parties.
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THE COURT: Go right ahead.
(At this time, a portion of State’s Exhibit 6 was played with the following transcription: )
Mr. Smith: “So, what was gay hung around Hobbs some. He was from Denver City. They left out of Hobbs with some folks and wound up at a local one-story motel down there on second street. That’s him. I don’t know - -
Mr. Lucas: I don’t think so.”
Mr. Smith: “Old boy is gay, hung around Hobbs quite a bit off and on but - - 20 miles over there from Hobbs, so he’d run over there and sport around a little bit and then take folks off. Looked like he’d had a pretty good fight in that motel room. Been right before Christmas, in December.”
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) Lieutenant, are you showing any pictures or any part of the file to Mr. Lucas?
A. I had pictures there, I said, “Is that him?” I think it was one point in there a picture of the priest there.
Q. So during some of these pauses, Henry Lucas is looking at a picture or something?
A. He has got the picture there and I said, “Is that him?” on one part of it. Yes, sir.
Q. Is there anything else from that file that
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you showed him?
The car picture and the picture of him.
Q. The picture of the priest’s car?
A. The picture of the priest’s car and the picture of the priest.
Q. Okay. Did you have any other documents that you showed to Henry during this interview?
A. No, sir.
(At this time, a portion of State’s Exhibit 6 was played with the following transcription: )
Mr. Smith: “Nope, I think you was up around Hobbs sometime, but I don’t know exactly when.”
Mr. Lucas: “Well, I was up there in ’82, but that was in - - it seems like it was the early part of ’82.
Mr. Smith: “Found that car, been to Odessa with him in it, whoever went with him and it was brought back to Hobbs. So whoever it was” - -
Mr. Lucas: “It wasn’t me.”
Mr. Smith: “His own car. Why don’t you go ahead and look at that full picture, Henry, to see if it had - - the clothing was taken out of the car, is one thing.”
Mr. Lucas: “No, I wouldn’t have nothing like that, because I never took a car back.”
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Mr. Smith: “Yep. Well, this old boy apparently was picked up - - picked up by somebody there in Hobbs. Like I said, he was running a gay circuit. The guy was a priest, but he wasn’t wearing no priest clothes when he got popped, and, you know, he was just wearing regular clothes. And he got picked - - he picked somebody up there in Hobbs, they drove to Odessa, And whoever he got picked a fight with him in there in his motel room, tied him up and drove the car back to Hobbs and left it in the parking lot there.
“That doesn’t sound like nothing?”
Mr. Lucas: “Nothing I would do. Maybe something Ottis would do, but not what I would do.”
Mr. Smith: Did Ottis ever mention to you anything about doing an accordion deal or anything, getting an accordion?
Mr. Lucas: “He never mentioned accordion.”
Mr. Smith: “He ever hung around Hobbs and that I - - that you know of?”
Mr. Lucas: “Me and Ottis both hung around Hobbs.”
Mr. Smith: “Is that right?”
Mr. Lucas: “I used to have a good buddy that lived in Hobbs down there.”
Mr. Smith: “Where did he live? Can you
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remember?”
Mr. Lucas: “Just go on back up there next to the airport back up there.”
Mr. Smith: “Carlsbad Highway?”
Mr. Lucas: “Yeah.”
Mr. Smith: “This Moose Lodge where this car was found is out there on the Carlsbad highway.”
Mr. Lucas: “My buddy lived out there. That road that turns right there by that Moose Lodge?”
Mr. Smith: “Yeah.”
Mr. Lucas: “That’s the road that I killed that girl on out there.”
Mr. Smith: “Is that right? That’s why I was trying to figure out if this guy was traveling in Hobbs or whatever. You wouldn’t have ever known he was a priest, because he died - - you know, he was full fledged gay, but he was - - he liked to be physical. You know, pretty rough stuff, is that he was liking; that. But that buddy of yours in Hobbs, is that right where he lived in that area?”
Mr. Lucas: “Yeah, he lived just out there about two and half blocks off of the main street going through town.”
Mr. Smith: “Where that same - - Where that Moose Lodge is?”
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Mr. Lucas: “Yeah.”
Mr. Smith: “Henry, you said you was in Hobbs the first part of ’82?
Mr. Lucas: “Yeah, I was there in - - the first part of ’82 and then I was back in there” - -
Mr. Smith: “Yeah. The first part of ’82?”
Mr. Lucas: “Let’s see, yeah, fist part of ’82. It was back in there, let’s see, yeah.”
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) Lieutenant, who was that person that just spoke?
A. Havrda.
Q. Havrda?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was he present during your entire interview?
A. He was in and out of the room. I don’t know if he was - - Probably for the majority of it.
Q. Was he present when you were interviewing Henry Lucas about the Apodaca murder? A. I believe so, yes.
Q. Who else was present?
A. Just me and Havrda and Lucas.
Q. No one else?
A. No, sir.
(At this time, State’s Exhibit Number 6 was played with the following transcription: )
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Mr. Smith: “I got my dates. It was December of ’81 - - I’m sorry. I said December of ’82.”
Mr. Lucas: “Yeah, I went in there the first part of ’82. I forget the exact date on that, but it was right around that time, somewhere in there that that girl was killed out there in Hobbs.”
Mr. Smith: “That buddy of yours, is he in any of that stuff?”
Mr. Lucas: “Was he before he died.”
Mr. Smith: “Did he die? When did he die?”
Mr. Lucas: “Oh” - -
Mr. Smith: “Been after this?”
Mr. Lucas: “Oh, yeah. I believe it was the last of ’83. It happened in ’83.”
Mr. Smith: “Did you ever see him up there?”
Mr. Lucas: “Well, he had all kinds of different stuff around that house. It’s possible. I wouldn’t say definite.”
Mr. Smith: “Yeah.”
Mr. Lucas: “But it was possible.”
Mr. Smith: “Would that fit with Ottis?”
Mr. Lucas: “Look, I can’t remember Ottis having any accordion.”
Mr. Smith: “Been a silver chalice, one of those silver cups, been a pretty big silver cup that
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they use - - what they used if for was to sprinkle that holy water.”
Mr. Lucas: “Oh, he had one of those, Ottis did. He had one of them.”
Mr. Smith: “Is that right?”
Mr. Lucas: “He still has it, I guess, if he ain’t got rid of it. He did have it.”
Mr. Smith: “You don’t know where he got that, by any chance?”
Mr. Lucas: “He got it on one of his trips, but I don’t know where. It was one - - Well, it looked pure silver. I don’t know if it was or not.”
Mr. Smith: “Pretty fancy looking?”
Mr. Lucas: “”A big gray type deal. He had that.”
Mr. Smith: “Did he know your buddy, too?”
Mr. Lucas: “Oh, yeah.”
Mr. Smith: “He did?”
Mr. Lucas: “I had Ottis out there two or three times.”
Mr. Smith: “How far did he live from that, Moose Lodge, do you reckon?”
Mr. Lucas: “Oh, let’s see. One, two, two and a half blocks.”
Mr. Smith: “By the trailer court?”
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Mr. Lucas: “Sort of a trailer court. Well, some old buildings up there, too, over that place.”
Mr. Smith: “Go on. That takes care of that. There’s nothing at all on this old boy that was beat and tied up.”
Mr. Lucas: “Ottis is good at that kind of stuff.”
Mr. Smith: “Used pillow cases in the room cut them and made a rope out of them and tied him up with that and cut the phone cord.”
Mr. Lucas: Ottis is good at that. He does that quite a bit.”
Mr. Smith: “What, do somebody in a motel room like that?”
Mr. Lucas: “Well, tie them up like that.”
Mr. Smith: “Tie them up” - -
Mr. Smith: “Cut the telephone cord off, right at the telephone. That’s the way he usually does. Instead of cutting it - - like if the telephone was up on the wall or something, he would cut the telephone cord right off the telephone.”
Mr. Smith: “Another deal I want to ask you about which the people out in El Paso was visiting with me and asked me to visit with you and see if right before you got locked up, then probably a week
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axe in her house, grey-headed old lady. Is that” - -
Mr. Lucas: “I told them I was out there, but they didn’t - - they called me a liar, so” - -
Mr. Smith: “Sir?”
Mr. Lucas: “I told them I was out there, but they called me a liar, so I let it go.”
Mr. Smith: “Is that right? Well, this is some different guys that I talked to and they were - - What?”
Mr. Lucas: That’s what I call north of El Paso.”
Mr. Smith: “You chopped the lady up with an axe? Can you tell me something about that?”
Mr. Lucas: “Well, that was during a break-in. I broke into her house.”
Mr. Smith: “Is that right before you got locked up?”
Mr. Lucas: “Um-hum. I was about - - I don’t even know, about two, two or three weeks before I got locked up, I guess, maybe a little longer. I wasn’t too long.”
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) Lieutenant, did you have any documents from this Apodaca case with you there?
A. No, sir.
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Q. Had any member of the El Paso Police Department taken any photographs of El Paso to give you before that interview?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did you have any kind of synopsis of this case?
A. No, sir.
Q. Hadn’t you gotten a flyer in June of ’84 when they were investigating whether or not a fellow named Rodriquez had possibly committed this murder?
A. I didn’t personally get it, no, sir.
Q. Did you ever read the flyer in Odessa when it got to the Odessa Police Department?
A. Whenever Apodaca and Perez came out there, I saw the flyer.
Q. All right. Did you read it at that time?
A. I probably did, yes, sir.
Q. Didn’t you testify earlier that you - - at that time that fugitive warrants was one of your job duties?
A. I had a warrant division under my - -
Q. Supervision?
A. - - supervision, yes, sir.
Q. Now, did Benito Perez of Jimmy Apodaca leave any of these items with you in June of ’84?
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I am sure that that flyer stayed there, but I didn’t keep it. It’s not my job - - I hate to sound like that - - to get out on the street and look for those people. The warrant division probably would have kept it.
Q. And you had talked to Jimmy Apodaca or Benito Perez earlier that day the 18th of September, hadn’t you?
A. During the - - September 18th.
Q. Yes, sir.
A. I talked to Apodaca on the phone, yes, sir.
Q. And I believe you testified earlier that during that phone conversation that Jimmy Apodaca talked to you a little bit more about the case?
A. I testified that I had asked him what the date of the case was.
Q. But I believe that you were asked what details of the case you knew about before the interview, and you stated that you knew that was an elderly woman axed to death.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You said that Jimmy Apodaca told you that there was a sex after death?
A. Possibly sex after death, yes, sir. That’s what started the whole thing. That’s why I’m sitting
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here.
Q. And it was a burglary? You knew that before?
A. I’m sure that I would assume that if she was in her house dead, there was at least a trickery involved in entry.
Q. And that there was murder in her residence. Do you remember Jimmy Apodaca telling you how he knew that there was possibly sex after death?
A. No, sir, I didn’t. I don’t believe I ever asked him.
Q. Have you ever been able to find out from your experience in homicide investigations whether or not an autopsy report can tell you whether there was sex right before death or whether there was sex right after death?
A. An autopsy, no, sir, but circumstances surrounding a particular homicide might indicate that.
Q. Did Jimmy Apodaca tell you some of those circumstances surrounding this homicide that led him to believe that there was possibly sex after death?
A. As I told you a while ago, sir, we didn’t even get it. He told me it looked like sex after death. And I said, “Have you-all talked to Lucas?” It was like bingo, sounds like what he’s been running down.
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Q. Did Jimmy Apodaca ever tell you that day when you had that phone conversation with him what he had done to look into Lucas’ possible involvement in this murder?
A. No, sir, I don’t believe he did.
Q. Did he tell you he had done any research into Henry Lucas’ whereabouts about that time?
A. I don’t believe he did, sir. I just asked him - - I told him I was going to go talk to him, did he still want me to ask him about it.
Q. And he said yes?
A. Yes, sir.
(At this time, a portion of State’s Exhibit 6 was played with the following transcription: )
Mr. Smith: I’ve got the actual date on this thing. It’s May the 27th.”
Mr. Lucas: “yeah. I know I got locked up in jail on June the 11th, so - -
Mr. Smith: “Anything you can tell me about the particular murder?”
Mr. Lucas: “Well, the woman was in the - - in her bedroom when I went in. And seems like I took her out of her bedroom. And I think it was in the living room is where I killed her at, if I can remember right. I took some jewelry and some money,
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And I can’t remember whether I took the television. I started to, but I don’t know whether I ever did or not. And there was some - - this old, I call it Mexican jewelry, sort of - - What do you call it? It’s like silver, but I don’t think it was.”
Mr. Smith: “Kind of cheap stuff or” - -
Mr. Lucas: “No, it looked expensive. It had this - - not sapphire but green” - -
Mr. Smith: “Turquoise?”
Mr. Lucas: “Turquoise, yeah. It had that stuff on it. And I took it. And the woman looked to be about maybe 60, close to 60, maybe a little older, about five-two, five-three, about 100 - - maybe 115, 120 pounds, skinny looking.”
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) When Henry Lucas is telling you that right there on the tape, Lieutenant, that’s after you told him at the beginning of the interview that the people in El Paso wanted you to ask him about an old - - old Mexican lady chopped up with an axe in her house, a gray-headed old lady. Isn’t that correct?
A. Yes, sir, I believe so. I was trying to - -
Q. In other words, when Henry Lucas is telling you in that tape that this lady was maybe 60, maybe a little older, about five-two, five-three, that that’s
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after you had already told Henry Lucas what it was on older Mexican lady?
Yes, that’s correct.
(At this time, a portion of State’s Exhibit 6 was played with the following transcription: )
Mr. Lucas: “If I can remember, I did a good job on her. I sure did a good job on her. I really worked her over.
Mr. Smith: “Where did you get this deal?”
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) And Lieutenant, when Henry Lucas is telling you there that he did a good job on her, that he really worked her over, that’s after you had told him in the beginning of the interview that you had an old Mexican lady chopped up with an axe in her house?
A. That’s correct, yes, sir.
Q. Okay.
(At this time, a portion of State’s Exhibit 6 was played with the following transcription: )
Mr. Lucas: The axe came from her house. That’s where teh axe came from.”
Mr. Smith: “Do you remember anything about the area?”
Mr. Lucas: “Well, it sets - - Well, you go through, back over sort of a hill, back out,
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circle back around towards the house was at. Back in there.”
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) When he talks about going through Mexico right there, that’s after you mentioned to him that it was an old Mexican lady?
A. Yes, sir.
(At this time, a portion of State’s Exhibit 6 was played with the following transcription: )
Mr. Lucas: I went out there and talked to El Paso. I had a done quite a few out in that area and I talked to them and I told them, I said, ‘I got one, you know, just recently down here.’
“’No, no, you ain’t got nothing here.’ And so” - -
Mr. Smith: “Two white boys you talked to out there, wasn’t it?”
Mr. Lucas: “Yeah, well, there was three or four of them altogether, and they didn’t want to even believe anything I had to say and so I didn’t - - I didn’t mess with them.”
Mr. Smith: “you’re pretty sure that axe was yours?”
Mr. Lucas: “Oh, yeah. I know it was, yeah.”
Mr. Smith: “That’s - - See, what happened, they came to Odessa, the two guys that didn’t get to
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talk to you.”
Mr. Lucas: “Yeah.”
Mr. Smith: “We were just talking about some cases and they brought this up and I said, ‘Well, hell, that fits with them.’ And they said, ‘We had some guys talk to him.”’
Mr. Lucas: “They didn’t talk. I told them I had one out there, but they said, ‘No, we ain’t got nothing out here like that.’ They didn’t have a murder out there.”
Mr. Smith: “Shit?”
Mr. Lucas: “We ain’t got no murders out here.’ I took them back where I had bodies that evening, and they don’t even - - I asked old Pete over there out of Odessa.”
Mr. Smith: “Montimel?”
Mr. Lucas: “Yeah. I said, do you remember such and such? He usually worked out there.’
“And he said, ‘Yeah.’
“I said, ‘I know about them.’”
Mr. Smith: “Them guys?”
Mr. Lucas: “They didn’t know anything about them.”
Mr. Smith: “Tell you what I’ll do on that. I’ll have to call a buddy of mine that works for El
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Paso. I’m going to see if I can get him to - - you-all apparently are going to Sierra Blanca tomorrow.”
Mr. Lucas: “Yeah, as far as I know.”
Mr. Smith: “See if he can’t run down there and visit with you about that, because they - - I told them, I said, ‘Well,’ I said, ‘I have talked to Henry,’ and, you know, ‘was there’ - - I don’t want to lead you on this.”
Mr. Lucas: “It’s an old house. It’s not a”- -
Mr. Smith: “I don’t want to lead you on it, but did you do anything after you done it?”
Mr. Lucas: “Well, I had sex with her. There was sex and everything like before.”
Mr. Smith: “Yeah. That will help them guys greatly. I appreciate that. I might be barking - - Well, Ottis, that would fit with him.”
Mr. Lucas: “No, Ottis wasn’t out there there then.”
Mr. Smith: “No, I mean this one of mine that I was talking about.”
Mr. Lucas: “Oh, yeah, yeah. I’d almost say if there wasn’t a guy there in Hobbs it would be him.”
Mr. Smith: “Did he do some killing, the guy in Hobbs?”
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Mr. Lucas: “Yeah.”
Mr. Smith: “What was his name?”
Mr. Lucas: “He went by the name of Fred but they had another name they told me he was.”
Mr. Smith: “Dallas PD know who he was?”
Mr. Lucas: “Yeah, the sheriff down there does.”
Mr. Smith: “Sheriff does? If I talked to him I can find out? That would be great if I could find him.”
Mr. Lucas: “Yeah, it would.”
Mr. Smith: “How was everything going for you?
Mr. Lucas: “Rough.”
Mr. Smith: “Is it? It’s a long time. Well, I talked to you - - the last time we talked was in December. I don’t know if you remember, but you had come to Midland and it snowed when you-all were leaving.”
Mr. Lucas: “Yeah.”
Mr. Smith: “Snowed like hell.”
Mr. Lucas: “Yeah, I know.”
Mr. Smith: “That was the coldest front we’d ever had in our lives.”
Mr. Lucas: “Yeah, I know. We got - - It started just as we got there, almost we got there it
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turned cold.”
Mr. Smith: “Gosh almighty, you have been around some since then. I saw the deal in San Angelo and all that.”
Mr. Lucas: “Yeah, been in Florida, San Angelo, over here, back to California.”
Mr. Smith: “Want another cup of coffee?”
Mr. Lucas: “Yeah, I’ll take another cup.”
Mr. Smith: “C.J., is that coffee ready? Can I have one? He is going to get us some fresh cups.”
Mr. Lucas: “Well, I think Ottis will be out here next month.”
Mr. Smith: “On the pretrial deal?”
Mr. Lucas: “Yeah.”
Mr. Smith: “I talked to him when they brought him up. I never even thought about this one, and I got to going back through my mind and looking around, I thought, well, I’ll ask and see on this, if it fit.”
Mr. Lucas: “I can remember that cup after you mentioned it. I remember him having that cup, but I can’t remember the - - Come to think of it, he did mention an accordion one time.
Mr. Smith: “Do you mind scooting up? I
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don’t know if that mike is going to pick up that far or not. Thank you.”
Mr. Lucas: “It was - - I can remember him mentioning one. I don’t know whether he had one or what, but I do remember that now. But that cup, I definitely remember that. As far as I know, his wife used to have the cup.”
Mr. Smith: “Is she down in Florida? He says this deal here fits Ottis or was it that other dude that was over there in Hobbs that don’t live but about two blocks from where we found that car? When we get Ottis back up here, we can get something up on that and talk to him?
Mr. Lucas: “But I know that cup. As far as that silver cup, I can remember Ottis having that. I think he had - - he gave that to his wife.”
Mr. Smith: “I don’t have a picture of that darn thing. I wish I did. I never did.”
Mr. Lucas: “Well, it’s sort of like a - - I call it a vial. They were small at the bottom and then they come up large at the top almost like a - - well, you could use it for a flower pitcher, if you wanted to put flowers in it.”
Mr. Smith: “Pretty good size deal?”
“You want to go ahead? I’m through with my
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Business. It don’t take this long to do this.
“I’ll get ahold of those boys out there in El Paso that he did the axe deal out there that they want us to check on. I think I’ll call them. I told him I would call him tonight. If they are going to be in Sierra Blanca, maybe we can set up something for them and they can come down there and visit with you if they want.
Mr. Lucas: “I went there to El Paso. O told them all about them cases out there and they said, “We ain’t got nothing like that. They got it.’”
Mr. Havrda: “Henry, you did some running around out in Colorado, didn’t you?”
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) Who is that?
A. Havrda.
Q. Hazard?
A. No, Havrda.
(At this time, a portion of State’s Exhibit 6 was played with the following transcription: )
Mr. Havrda: “Do you ever remember taking a car or pick up truck and leaving it in Colorado? It would be taken here from west Texas close to the New Mexico line?
Mr. Lucas: “I took a pickup. Me and Ottis
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did and drove it out there somewhere, but I don’t know whether it was out in Colorado or not.”
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) Is there anything else on this tape about El Paso?
A. I believe that winds it up. If you will let it play on out, I think I gave the time and everything and he starts on his things.
(At this time, a portion of State’s Exhibit 6 was played with the following transcription: )
Mr. Lucas: “Well, they had a camper on it, the pickup did we took. It was sort of a blue - - it was either a blue Chevrolet or blue GMC. I don’t know which it was.”
Mr. Havrda: “Do you remember how you come by that pickup truck?”
Mr. Lucas: “Yeah, Ottis killer the guy for it.”
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) What is that I’m hearing in the background?
A. That’s the city jailer looking at the file on a case he was working on.
(At this time, a portion of State’s Exhibit 6 was played with the following transcription: )
Mr. Havrda: “You’re right. It’s blue and it’s a Chevrolet pickup.”
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Mr. Smith: “Heck of a memory.”
Mr. Havrda: “You were right about something else. The man is dead.
“I would even say that the composite is - - “
Mr. Lucas: “How many times was he shot?”
Mr. Havrda: “A bunch. “This is a composite of Ottis, of the person that sold that blue pickup truck, and this is a picture of Ottis.”
Mr. Smith: “Let me see that composite.”
Mr. Lucas: “Yeah, that’s Ottis.”
Mr. Smith: “He had hair” - -
Mr. Havrda: “Bearing in mind that this composite was drawn several years ago and Ottis may have had that hair right there?”
Mr. Lucas: “He had hair. He just lost that in the last two and a half years, maybe, if he had it that long. He rubbed it off.”
Mr. Havrda: “Have you ever heard of Ottis going by the name of Glen. F. Brooks? I know that you-all went by different names and I know that he probably has gone by so many different names.”
Mr. Lucas: “I know Glen is one he went by. I can’t remember Brooks, but it’s possible.”
Mr. Smith: “I’m taking Tums, or you got
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Something else like that” - -
Mr. Lucas: “No, I’ve got stuff.”
Mr. Smith: “I got some Tums. I had barbecue today that set my stomach on fire.
Mr. Lucas: “No, I got Maalox and some other kind of stuff O got to take. I left the Maalox out in the plane out there today. I figured I’d need it tonight.”
Mr. Smith: “Kind of made the rounds today?”
Mr. Lucas: “Quite a few.”
Mr. Havrda: “This - - The victim or the deceased, he was kind of a drifter. He was a construction worker and he come originally out of Arkansas and he showed up here in west Texas, a little place called Andrews, and living in a small kind of a lower rundown motel there in Andrews. His old body was found on the side of the road shot a bunch of times, and the next thing we know his pickup shows up the next day in Colorado at a service station sold to the owner of the service station.”
Mr. Lucas: “Any ideas on how he can get away with it?
“I remember the truck. I think I sold it in - - Let me think. If I can think of it there, right there in Colorado. See, it was right next to Pueblo.
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I can’t think of the mane of the city, Colorado City. It’s right in there close to Denver. I thought we sold that. I can’t think of the name of the town. Me and Ottis got a case in there just about the time it happened.”
Mr. Smith: “Yeah.”
Mr. Havrda: “Yeah, you sure do.”
Mr. Lucas: “I know that what it is, but I just can’t put it in mind. I know what it was.”
Mr. Havrda: “Well, when I got to looking at where you had been arrested, you know, the place where you had been arrested, and where the pickup was found, real close. And I got to looking at the composite of Ottis.”
Mr. Lucas: “They did a better job on me then they did on Ottis. They had me down so you couldn’t tell them apart.”
Mr. Smith: “Is that right, on your composite?”
Mr. Lucas: “I forgot who drawed that, but they drawed it - - I mean, it was absolutely perfect. You could look right at the picture.”
Mr. Smith: “And know exactly who it was. There aren’t many of them like that. I went to high school with an old boy, nearly grew up with him. He robbed an old store and drew a composite of that guy.
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Shit, I never recognized him.”
MR. PONTON: I didn’t think it would go this long, Judge. We might break for lunch, if you want to.
THE COURT: Well, I have got a judge’s meeting that started at 12:00 and they probably have already left me out of it. We will be back at 1:30.
(A lunch recess was taken.)
THE COURT: Please be seated, ladies and gentlemen. I’m sorry to get started so late. I wasn’t watching the time.
Proceed.
MR. PONTON: Thank you, Your Honor. I just want to finish playing this tape and I think we will be done with this witness.
(At this time, a portion of State’s Exhibit 6 was played with the following transcription: )
Mr. Smith: “Somebody said he used to go into” - -
Mr. Lucas: “See, that was the second pickup we stole. We stole one out of - - down there next to Galveston. Took it way up in Oklahoma and left it.”
Mr. Smith: “And sold it there?”
Mr. Havrda: “Hell, I know it’s been a long day, Henry. Do you remember anything about that
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incident or what happened that night or” - -
Mr. Lucas: “Well, the guy was robbed of what money he had. We took what money he had. We had got together drinking and he took us to this motel. It was not a bad motel, but the outside of it was all rundown as far as the outside. And him and Ottis got to messing around. Ottis got to drinking. And when he gets to drinking, then look out.
“So finally he told the guy, he says, “I want to use your pickup.’
“The guy said, ‘No, you ain’t using my pickup.’
“And Ottis said, ‘Well, I’m going to take the damn thing.’
“And the guy said, ‘No.’
“And him and the guy got into a fight in there the motel room and Ottis ended up shooting him. It must have been eight or nine times he shot that guy. It could have been a little more, but he really filled that guy with bullets.
“But how anybody could have stopped from hearing that gun, I don’t know.”
Mr. Smith: “That was in a motel?”
Mr. Lucas: “Yeah, right there in the motel.
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And he took the guy from the motel, put him in the truck, took him way out of town about - - right close to five or six miles and he took and dumped the guy off the side of the road. And he said, ‘I got your pickup.’
“Yeah, he was - -the guy was - - I don’t know. He wasn’t a real bright guy. I wouldn’t call him a real bright guy, but he was a lot of mouth.”
Mr. Smith: “the dead guy?”
Mr. Lucas: “It got him in trouble.”
Mr. Smith: “It doesn’t take long, does it?”
Mr. Lucas: “I knew what had happened when he started arguing with Ottis. I knew what was going to happen.”
Mr. Havrda: “That’s - - You done seen that action before?”
Mr. Lucas: “Yeah. Of course, Ottis ain’t one to mess with when he gets drunk and gets to drinking. He gets mad. He will tear you up.”
Mr. Havrda: “Is he a pretty hefty fellow?”
Mr. Lucas: “Oh, yeah. He was bad when he gets mean.”
Mr. Smith: “Just fighting, pretty tough without the gun or anything, just fighting?”
Mr. Lucas: “He killed a guy with his
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fists.”
Mr. Smith: “Is that right?”
Mr. Lucas: “I seen him do it more than one time. I seen him beat that guy’s brains out. I don’t think that was over five or six miles out of town.
Mr. Smith: “Do you want to put a tape in and take a statement on that or do you - -
“This has just got general stuff on it. It don’t make no difference. Whatever you want to do is fine.”
Mr. Havrda: “Yeah.”
Mr. Smith: “This has got my two deals on there and yours is running into it. I will finish this at midnight on whatever day it happens to be.”
Mr. Lucas: “It ain’t quite midnight yet. It’s a few more minutes.”
Mr. Smith: “Well, my watch has got five ‘til. I was looking at the clock on the wall. It’s still Tuesday, the 18th of September, 1984, a the Ward County courthouse. I’m going to stop this tape interview with Mr. Henry Lucas. Present is C. J. Havrda and Jerry Smith. How about that?”
Q. (BY MR. PONOTN) Is that the end of what you taped that evening?
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That’s - - Yes, sir, as far as me, and then I think Mr. Havrda went into his Andrews homicide on his tape.
Q. And do you know where the tape of that Andrews homicide investigation is?
A. I would have no idea, sir.
Q. Who would be in charge of that file, Ranger Havrda or the Andrews Police Department?
A. I would assume it would be a joint investigation. They may both be in custody of that, sir.
Q. When you were taking that statement for Henry Lucas regarding this Apodaca murder based on - - that’s the supplement of it. When you were taking that from Henry Lucas, you knew certain of the details of the offense, didn’t you, as related to you by Jimmy Apodaca, Benito Perez, just a rough outline?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you know enough about it to where some of the details given to you by Henry Lucas in that interview were such that you knew what Henry was saying was false on some of those things he was saying?
A. Sir, this is not my thing, I don’t believe.
Q. I’m sorry. You’re right. I gave you the
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wrong one.
Well, earlier this morning, for instance, I showed you where Henry Lucas mentioned that this offense happened where he calls north of El Paso.
Yes, sir.
Q. You knew that this offense didn’t happen north of El Paso, didn’t you?
A. Sir, I didn’t know where it occurred.
Q. Did you think that any of the things that Henry was telling you in this confession were false?
A. I don’t have any way of knowing, sir. I just called Apodaca and told him what he had told me and let him make a decision whether he was telling the truth or not.
Q. Did he tell you that some of the things Henry was saying weren’t accurate?
A. No, sir. I didn’t relay the entire conversation with him. I just told him it sounded like he - - just he told me he hadn’t been a participant in one and told me he had done that one and I didn’t get into all the details with him.
Q. Do you know if Henry Lucas talked with any officers about this case that day before you did?
A. No, sir. I don’t know what anybody talked to him about prior to me and Havrda going in.
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Q. Didn’t you talk with some other officers that day about this offense before you went in there?
A. No, sir. They didn’t know what I was going to ask him about this one. I just threw it in.
Q. But you had talked to Jimmy Apodaca and Benito - - Jimmy Apodaca earlier that day?
A. Yes, sir. I thought you were referring to those officers in the - -
Q. I was initially, but then I - - In this confession that you took from Henry or this statement, Henry Lucas says right near the beginning of the statement right there, it says, Henry says, “I told them that I was out there, but they didn’t - - they called me a liar, so - - “ and you say, “Sir?” And then Henry says, “I told them I was out there, but they called me a liar, so I let it go.” Is that right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, did you take that to mean that Henry Lucas had previously tried to confess to this offense and had been disbelieved and called a liar by other El Paso officers when he tried to confess to this murder of Librada Apodaca.
A. The way he is putting it there, yes, sir, I would say the way he is putting it.
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Q. Is that the way you believed it at that time you heard it that day?
A. I didn’t know that they had actually talked to him about that offense at that time. Whenever he said that, I just assumed he had said something to them about it.
Q. But that day when you were taking the statement from Henry, Henry was telling you when he had tried to previously confess to this crime El Paso officers called him a liar about it.
A. That’s basically what he is saying, yes, sir.
MR PONTON: Pass the witness, Your Honor.
MR. MOODY: No further questions, Your Honor.
MR. PONTON: The witness may be excused, Your Honor, subject to recall.
THE COURT: Well, now, subject to recall. Does that mean he can’t go back to Odessa or does that - -
MR. PONTON: It means he can go back to Odessa and that if the defense requires him we will be in touch with him well in advance so he can make suitable travel plans. And I’m sure that that will be supplied by the state, too.
The court: Then you don’t have any intention of recalling him, then for the next 24
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hours?
MR. PONTON: No, we do not, Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. Thank you, Officer Smith.
MR. SMITH: Thank you, sir.
THE COURT: You may go on about your duty. Go back to Odessa, and if they need you, I guess we will have to call you again.
MR. SMITH: All right, sir. Thank you, sir.
THE COURT: Who will be your next witness, Mr. Moody?
MR. JEWKES: Deputy Eugene Ross, Your Honor.
THE COURT: How do you spell that last name?
MR. JEWKES: It’s R O S S, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Okay. Thank you. Mr. Ross, please raise your right hand.
Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Have a seat please, sir.
Go ahead.
EUGENE J. ROSS,
Having been duly sworn by the Court to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, was examined and testified as follows”
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BY MR. JEWKES:
Q. Deputy Ross, would you please state your full name for the record, sir?
A. Eugene J. Ross.
Q. How are you employed, sir?
A. I’m employed by Quay County Sheriff’s Department.
Q. Where is Quay County?
A. Quay County is Tucumcari.
Q. Is that in the state of New Mexico?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Deputy Ross, how long have you been employed by the county of Quay with the sheriff’s office?
A. I would be going on four years.
Q. Are you a peace officer certified by the state of New Mexico?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, Deputy Ross, I want you to think back to the date of June the 9th of 1983, and I ask you where you were living on that date?
A. I have been living in San Jon.
Q. Now, where is San Jon with respect to - - And by the way, for the court reporter’s benefit, would you spell San Jon, please, sir?
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Q. Is that two separate words?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Where in San Jon, New Mexico, with respect to Tucumcari?
A. It’s 22 miles east of Tucumcari on I-40.
Q. How far is San Jon from the Texas line?
A. 18 miles.
Q. Would San Jon be west of the Texas line?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And is it on a - - some type of thoroughfare leading into Texas, some type of highway?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, Deputy Ross, going back to that date of June 9th, 1983, were you employed by the Quay County Sheriff’s office on that date?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. I want to direct your attention to the approximate time of 12:05 a.m. on June the 9th, 1983, and I ask you if you can recall where you were at that time?
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Okay. 12:05 I was at home.
Q. At the approximate time of 12:05 a.m., did you receive a telephone call?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Who called you?
A. The dispatcher from my office.
Q. And what was the name of that sheriff’s dispatcher?
A. Gary Moore.
Q. Was he a deputy sheriff?
A. He’s a jailer.
Q. All right. Now, when Jailer Moore called you, did he give you some information?
A. He just told me there was a disturbance at the Red X.
Q. Deputy Ross, for the benefit of the Court, what is the Red X?
A. The Red X is a truck stop right off of I-40 on 39 and I-40.
Q. Is it located near any particular town?
A. It’s right in San Jon.
Q. Did Gary Moore give you any other information other that the fact there was some kind of disturbance at the Red X Truck Stop?
A. No, sir, he just told me there was a
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disturbance at the Red X and for me to go down and see.
Q. Did you do as you were requested?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Approximately how far is the Red X Truck Stop from where you were living at that time?
A. It’s about a five-minute drive.
Q. Now, as soon as you got to the Red X Truck Stop, did you enter it?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And once you entered the truck stop, would you please tell the Court exactly what you saw?
A. I went in and - - went in, and the night shift lady pointed out to me that there was a man there wanting to talk to me.
Q. Who was the lady that you talked to?
A. I can’t remember.
Q. Did she point to a particular man?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did she tell you anything about that particular man?
A. She just asked me that he has been there and she asked me if I could remove him from the premises.
Q. Did you approach that man?
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Yes, sir.
Q. Did you speak to him?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you get a good look at him?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Deputy Ross, is that man in this courtroom today?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What I’d like you to do, sir, is please point to that man and describe for the Court, first of all, where is he seated and secondly, how is he dressed?
A. Okay, he is sitting right over there. He is dressed in a red tie, white shirt and blue coat.
Q. Is he seated next to another man wearing a blue coat and a red tie?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Is he seated to the right of the man with the mustache?
A. He is seated to the right.
MR. JEWKES: Your Honor, I would ask the record to reflect the witness has identified the defendant.
THE COURT: It will so reflect.
Q. (BY MR. JEWKES) Now, Deputy Ross, when you
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approached the defendant, did you speak to him first or did he speak to you first?
He spoke to me first.
Q. Now, at that point in time when the defendant spoke to you, was he under arrest?
A. No, sir.
Q. Had he been detained by you in any way manner?
A. No, sir.
Q. Was he free to have left if he had chosen to do so?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Would you please tell the Court exactly what the defendant said to you when he first spoke?
A. When he came to me and he asked me that - - that he came down with two girls off the ramp. He had car trouble, and when he got to the Red X with the two girls - - Excuse me - - He said there was an Army type ambulance drove up and somebody asked the girls - - I guess the ambulance drove up and the two girls went up there, and then they said there was a man there in the ambulance and he asked them to get in and the two girls got in and they drove off.
Q. All right. Now, for clarification purposes, let’s back up just a little bit.
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When the defendant told you about the ramp, did you understand what he meant by the word ramp?
Yes, sir.
Q. For the purposes of the record that’s being made, what ramp was he referring to?
A. He is referring to - - there is an on-ramp of I-40 that he came down on and where he came down and walked to the Red X.
Q. All right. Are we referring to what is commonly known as an exit ramp off of an interstate highway?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, did the defendant give you any specific information concerning an automobile?
A. He told me his car was broke down on I-40.
Q. Did you subsequently check that out?
A. No, sir.
Q. Later on did you ever see the defendant’s car?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Where was the defendant’s car?
A. It was heading west on I-40 towards
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Tucumcari about a fourth of a mile from the exit.
Q. Was that automobile approximately where he had told you it was earlier?
A. yes, sir.
Q. Now, did the defendant tell you anything about two girls being with him?
A. All he told me, he had two girls that came off the ramp with him and that they got in the ambulance.
Q. An ambulance?
A. Yeah.
Q. Did he say what kind of an ambulance it was?
A. He described to me as an Army type ambulance with a red cross in the middle.
Q. All right, sir. Now, during the time that you were talking to the defendant, did he ever tell you his name?
A. yes, sir.
Q. And did he tell you his mane was Henry Lucas?
A. yes, sir.
Q. Did Henry Lucas tell you where he was from?
A. No, sir.
Q. After he told you that he had had two girls with him and that they had left with someone driving an ambulance, did the defendant give you any other
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information?
No, sir, that all the information he gave me.
Q. Did he ask you to do something based on that information?
A. Yes, sir. He told me to see if I could stop the ambulance and then bring the two girls back to him or down to the Red X where he was at.
Q. Well, did the defendant ever tell you in what direction the ambulance had driven away?
A. Okay. He told me that it left the Red X and got on the on-ramp down towards Tucumcari.
Q. All right. If that were the case, would that ambulance have been headed in a westerly direction?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What, if anything, did you tell the defendant about whether or not you could go down the road chasing some kind of ambulance?
A. Okay. I told the defendant that in order for me to go stop an ambulance, I have to have a complaint signed.
Q. Was the defendant willing to file a complaint?
A. He didn’t say. He just told me that - - He
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just kind of got off the track from there.
Q. Did Henry Lucas ever ask to make a phone call or ask you to make a phone call?
A. When he - - When I told him that I have to have a complaint signed from him, and he told me, he said, “Well, why don’t we just call Sheriff Conway?”
Q. All right. Now, in that regard, did you ask Henry Lucas who Sheriff Conway was?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did you know who Sheriff Conway was?
A. No, sir, I have never heard of the man.
Q. Did Henry Lucas have a telephone number in his possession?
A. Yes, sir. He got it out of his billfold and he dialed the number and called Sheriff Conway.
Q. All right, now. Where did this telephone conversation take place?
A. Right there by the counter by the gas pump.
Q. And did Henry Lucas call Sheriff Conway?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did Henry Lucas talk to him over the telephone?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Were you present when that conversation was being held?
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I was next to him, from here to the - - well, he was right next to me.
Q. Did you overhear any part of that conversation that Henry Lucas had with Sheriff Conway?
A. He was just telling Sheriff Conway that he had the two girls with him there, but somebody else took away - - took them from there.
Q. All right, sir. To the best of your recollection, do you recall any of the rest of that conversation between Henry Lucas and the sheriff?
A. No, I didn’t quite hear that.
Q. Did you ever talk to Sheriff Conway?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. Did you do so at that time?
A. Henry handed me the phone and told me that Sheriff Conway wanted to talk to me.
Q. All right. Now, did you engage in a conversation with Sheriff Conway?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And is that Sheriff Conway in Montaque County, Texas?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And just what did you and Sheriff Conway discuss?
A. He just advised me what Henry Lucas was up
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to or he - - Sheriff Conway told me that Henry was talking to him about he had two girls there with him, and he just told me that these two girls that Henry Lucas mentioned to him over the phone was, you know, he told me these two girls was missing.
Q. All right. Did Sheriff Conway at that time advise you as to the names of those two girls?
A. Yes, sir. He gave me the names of the two girls and furnished me the birthdays.
Q. Right offhand, can you recall the names of those girls?
A. Frieda Powell and Katie Rich.
Q. How would Frieda Powell’s last name be spelled?
A. P O W E L L.
Q. And Katie Rich, would you please spell her last name for the Court Reporter?
A. R I C H.
Q. Did Sheriff Conway ever indicate to you whether or not he had put out any all-points bulletins on those two women?
A. Well, when he was talking to me, he said he did.
Q. Do you recall where he sent those bulletins?
A. No. He just told me that he sent it along
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to Dallas, Deming, El Paso or out along that area there.
Q. Now, when he referred to Deming, did you take that to mean Deming, New Mexico?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And when he said El Paso, did you take that to mean El Paso, Texas?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Deputy Ross, did you have any further conversation with Sheriff Conway at that time?
A. Yes, sir. He just told me that, you know, whereabouts I was with Henry Lucas.
Q. He wanted to know where Henry was?
A. Yeah.
Q. Did you tell him?
A. Yes, sir. I told him I was at San Jon, New Mexico, at the Red X Truck Stop.
Q. Did Sheriff Conway ever indicate to you whether or not Henry was a suspect?
A. He just told me that Henry Lucas was wanted for murder back east, but he told me it was confidential and he advised me he would call me the next day at the office.
Q. Now, after that telephone conversation, did you and Henry Lucas sit down at a table?
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We went to the table and sat down for, I guess, about five minutes, and he got up and he just paced himself the floor in the Red X.
Q. Did you have any further conversations with Henry Lucas?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, during the time that you were seated at the table and the defendant was pacing the floor, was he under arrest at that time?
A. No, sir.
Q. Had he been detained by you?
A. No, sir.
Q. Was he free to come and go as he chose? A. Yes, sir.
Q. At that time did the defendant tell you where he had just come from?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Would you please tell the Court exactly what he said?
A. He told me he came from El Paso, Artesia, Roswell, Clovis and then on to San Jon.
Q. Now, did you previously testify just a few minutes ago that Henry Lucas had told you that when his car broke down he was trying to go back to Texas?
A. He didn’t say which way he was going. He just - -
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Q. Did he ever tell you that he was going to take the two girls back to Texas? A. Yes, sir, he did. He told me that.
Q. From the Red X Truck Stop, what direction would Texas have been? A. From the Red X Truck Stop, Texas would have been east.
Q. All right. When you later found the defendant’s car, in what direction was it pointing? A. The car was facing west towards Tucumcari, which would have been towards - -
Q. Would that indicate - - Excuse me. Go ahead.
A. Which have been going into the other direction.
Q. Would that indicate to you that the defendant was driving his car in a westerly direction when it broke down? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And would that be inconsistent with what he had told you earlier? A. No, sir.
Q. Now, after Henry Lucas told you that he was coming from El Paso, Artesia, Roswell and Clovis, did anyone else come into the truck stop?
A. While we was there - - While I was there with
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Henry Lucas, in between that time Ruben Moor and his wife showed up there.
Q. All right. And once Ruben Moor and his wife came into the truck stop, did they approach him?
A. Yes, sir. Q. Did they speak to you or Henry Lucas?
A. They first talked to Henry.
Q. Do you recall what they said to Henry Lucas? A. No, sir, because they was just a little bit further away from me.
Q. Do you recall whether or not the defendant said anything to them? A. No, sir.
Q. Shortly after that, did either Ruben Moor or his wife speak to you?
A. Henry - - Ruben did.
Q. Exactly what did Ruben Moor say to you, sir? A. Ruben told me that he came - - they came down to pick Henry up to take him home.
Q. Did Ruben Moor ever say where he and his wife lived? A. They - - No, they didn’t say.
Q. Did Ruben Moor say anything else to you? A. He just told me that something about he said that he used to believe Henry Lucas, and he
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said he, you know, changed so many stories now, he doesn’t know to believe him or not.
Q. Who changed stories so much? A. Henry Lucas.
Q. And those words came from Ruben Moor? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, did Ruben Moor ever say anything to you concerning the automobile that had been driven by Henry Lucas? A. Yes, sir. He advised me just to have that car picked up by a garage and have them store it.
Q. Was Henry Lucas standing there when Ruben Moor said that to you?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did the defendant ever object to his car being towed off to a garage and stored? A. No, sir.
Q. Didn’t bother him a bit? A. No, sir.
MR. JEWKES: Your Honor, I would like just a moment with co-counsel, please.
(An off-the - - record discussion was held.) Q. (BY MR. JEWKES) One last question, Deputy Ross.
During the time that Ruben Moor and his wife
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Were talking to Henry Lucas in the truck stop, did you ever overhear Henry Lucas say anything about the two girls that supposedly were with him earlier? A. He didn’t mention to them.
Q. In other words, Henry Lucas said nothing to Ruben Moor and Faye, his wife, in your presence? A. No, sir.
MR JEWKES: I’ll pass the witness, Your Honor.
BY MR.PONTON:
Q. Deputy Ross, my name is Rod Ponton.
Did you have - - make any notes or any police reports or any supplements based upon what occurred in San Jon, New Mexico, regarding Henry Lee Lucas?
Yes, sir.
Q. Do you have those with you?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Could I please see those? MR. JEWKES: Your Honor, I would ask the record to reflect the state is tendering to Mr. Ponton a Quay County offense incident report dated
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6-9-83 as well as - - Pardon me just a moment while I detach this - - as well as the El Paso Police Department supplement taken from Deputy Ross, Detective Benito Perez, dated July 10th, 1984, as well as affidavit signed by Deputy Ross dated September the 8th, 1986.
I would also ask the record to reflect that all of these items have been made available to the defense other than the affidavit which was received by our office yesterday.
THE COURT: It will so reflect.
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) The affidavit just tendered to me dated September 8th, 1986, is that your signature on the bottom of that, Deputy?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. This affidavit states: “To whom it may concern. On June 9th, ’86, Henry Lucas told Deputy Eugene Ross that he and another man came from El Paso traveling through Roswell, Clovis and on to San Jon where they broke down. While traveling they called Ruben Moor, who wired them $50 to Roswell.” Is that what that affidavit states? A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right. And this was notarized by Monique T. Isaacs, a notary public of the Sate of
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New Mexico. Is that correct? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Who is Monique Isaaco Do you know her?
A. She is our secretary.
Q. All right. This affidavit that states that Henry Lucas told you that he came from El Paso, at whose request was that affidavit made? A. By Chief Investigator Joe Alivar.
Q. Joe who? A. Joe Alivar.
Q. And is he in your office? A. Would that be Joe Avalos? Q. Yeah. Joe Avalos.
Q. Okay. When did he make that request to you, sir? A. It was back in July.
Q. Of 1986?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, the DA’s office has tendered to me two documents, one a July 10th, 1984, supplement, and you - - have you seen this before? That’s an El Paso Police Department multipurpose supplement dated July 10th, 1984.
A. Yes, sir.
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Q. Okay. When have you seen that supplement before, Deputy?
A. When Benny Perez and Joe Avalos was in San Jon.
Q. Okay. That was in July of 1985, wasn’t it? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you review that supplement before you came to testify here today? A. No, sir.
Q. All right. I want to show you another supplement that is an offense incident report number 147934 from New Mexico. Have you seen that before? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And isn’t that the supplement or incident report you made up back in June of 1983 when this incident happened? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And this report here, this New Mexico incident report was made right at the time of the events which occurred then. That is correct? A. Just during that day.
Q. Just during that day after it happened, you went to your office and typed up the report. I sthta correct? A. Yes, sir.
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Q. Is there anywhere in this report that says that Henry Lucas had come to El Paso, Texas?
A. No, sir. Q. Now, is there anything in this July 1984 supplement that you also subscribed and swore to, witnessed by Joe Avalos, is there anything in that supplement that says Henry Lee Lucas said in ’83 he had just come from El Paso? A. No, sir.
Q. Are you aware of any other supplements or any other statements or any other affidavits regarding your involvement in this Henry Lee Lucas matter other than thise two supplements and this half-page affidavit dated September 8th, 1986? In other words, do you know of any other statements that you’re involved with regarding Mr. Lucas other than these three which are now before you? A. That’s the only three, yeah.
Q. That’s all that you’re aware of? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Are you aware of any other document or affidavit that says anything about Henry Lucas telling you that he had come from El Paso when you first ran into him September 9 - - Excuse me - - June 9th, 1983? Page 669
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He just told me that on June the 9th. That’s when he told me he came from El Paso through Artesia and Roswell.
Q. Right. But is there any other document that says that besides this affidavit? A. No, sir. I just forgot that I didn’t put it in my original report.
Q. All right. Now, Deputy, the - - I’m a little confused on the time element of what happened in San Jon, New Mexico. You testified to Mr. Jewkes that you received a call a little after midnight, about 12:05 from the Red X Truck Stop? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And that telephone call was from the waitress there. Is that correct? A. No, it was from - -
Q. From Mr. Lucas? Who was the phone call from, please? A. Okay. The - -
Q. The first telephone call you received from the truck stop regarding Mr. Lucas.
A. The first call I got was from my office.
Q. All right. And was that the telephone call where your office said that the waitress at the truck stop wanted some assistance on a suspicious person
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out there?
He just called me and told me there was a disturbance and for me to go see.
Q. Okay. And did you go out to the truck stop at that time?
A. I got out there about five minutes after.
Q. Had you talked to Henry Lucas before you went to the truck stop? A. Say that again, sir? Q. Before you left your home to go to the truck stop that day, had you had any telephone conversations with Henry Lucas? A. No, sir, I never got a call from him.
Q. Did you ever have any telephone conversations with anybody besides your dispatcher before you went to the truck stop that night? A. The only call I had was only from a dispatcher.
Q. Okay. When you went to the truck stop, was Mr. Lucas there by himself or was he there with other friends or acquaintances of him?
A. He was there by himself along with the workers there.
Q. Okay. And is that when Mr. Lucas told you about his two girls, these two women he knew who had
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left in the ambulance?
Yes, sir.
Q. Okay. Now, did Mr. Lucas at that time tell you that he lived with a preacher named Ruben Moor in Stoneburg, Texas? A. No, sir.
Q. When did you first make contact with Ruben Moor?
A. Got there - - I had been there quite awhile with Henry Lucas.
Q. How long was quite awhile? A. About probably - - approximately an hour, and hour and 30 minutes, somewhere.
Q. Did you talk to Ruben Moor on the telephone? A. No, sir.
Q. Was Ruben Moor there at the truck stop?
A. Yes, sir. He came between that time, later on.
Q. Did he arrive at the truck stop after you did? A. No, sir.
Q. Or was he already there? A. No, sir, he wasn’t there.
Q. So within an hour and a half of the time you arrived at the truck stop, Ruben Moor arrived at the
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Red X Truck Stop in San Jon, New Mexico. Is that correct?
Yes, sir.
Q. That would be early in the morning hours of June 9th, 1983? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did Ruben Moor tell you that he had been in contact with Henry Lucas by telephone? A. He just advised me that Henry Lucas called later - - previous, before that, that he wanted some money. So Ruben Moor wired him some money.
Q. But you just saw Ruben Moor there at the truck stop. Is that correct? A. Yes, sir.
Q. So after Ruben Moor wired him some money, then Ruben Moor came to the truck stop himself. Is that correct? Is that the way you understood it? A. Well, when I was there with Lucas, okay, Ruben Moor and his wife came in.
Q. Okay.
A. Okay. That’s all I knew. I didn’t know nothing about Ruben or his wife until they showed up there at the Red X.
Q. Okay. Now, you talked to Sheriff Conway from Montaque County, Texas, that night, didn’t you?
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Yes, sir.
Q. Was that before or after Ruben Moor arrived at the truck stop? A. That was before.
Q. Before? A. Yes, sir.
Q. How did you get the number to call W. F. Conway?
A. Henry Lucas provided the number.
Q. All right. Now, your statement here says that Sheriff Conway sent out an APB for missing persons on Frieda Powell and Katie Rich and it says that he told you that Henry Lucas was wanted for murder back east, but Conway would not give you any other details and said that the information about Henry Lucas being wanted for murder back east was confidential.
Did you ask any more questions about that to Sheriff Conway? A. No, sir. I asked him and he just asked me it was confidential and he will call me the next - - that day when I got to the office.
Q. Did he tell you there was an arrest warrant for Henry Lucas for murder? A. No, sir.
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Q. Did he tell you any complaint had been filed against Henry Lucas for murder?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did you talk to Sheriff Conway later that day after that conversation?
A. He called the office, but I didn’t get a chance to talk to him.
Q. Do you know if he gave your office any information about any warrants or any information on why Henry Lucas was wanted for murder back east?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did you ever follow up that information yourself? A. No, sir. I advised the sheriff, and the sheriff asked me. I didn’t have any legal to apprehend Henry Lucas that night when I was up there with him, so he said just, you know, just let it by.
Q. And did you ever find out later that, in fact, there was no warrant for Henry Lucas back east and that he was not at least formally wanted for murder anywhere in the United States on June 8th or June 9th, 1983?
A. No, sir, nothing that I was aware of.
Q. Did you later find out that that was true? A. Would you repeat that question?
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Q. Did you later find out that on June 9th, 1983, Henry Lucas was not wanted for murder anywhere, at least, formally? A. No, sir. I didn’t.
Q. Now, Henry Lucas left the Red X Truck Stop with Ruben and Faye Moor, didn’t he?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Approximately what time on June 9th did he leave?
A. It would be around - - a little bit after 2:00 a.m.
Q. So would it be your testimony, then, that Ruben and Faye Moor didn’t stay at the truck stop very long at all?
A. No, sir.
Q. Just long enough to pick Henry Lucas up and then leave? A. They was there, I guess, say, about 30 minutes, I imagine.
Q. Long enough to gas up and get a cup of coffee and turn around and go back?
A. I don’t know, sir. All that, I never paid attention to it.
Q. Now, your statement says that Ruben Moor told you to take care of Henry Lucas’ car by having
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it towed to a garage. Did he tell you that while he was there at the truck stop?
Yes, sir.
Q. That would have been between 1:30 and 2:00 a.m. on the morning of June 9th, 1983. Is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Your statement goes on to say that you had talked with Belinda Reed who was a waitress at that truck stop and that Belinda Reed told you that Henry Lucas arrived at that truck stop with two men. When did Belinda Reed tell you - -
MR. JEWKES: Pardon me, Your Honor. I’m going to object. That’s a mischaracterization of the evidence. There is no evidence that Henry Lucas arrived with two men.
MR. PONTON: Excuse me. You’re absolutely right.
THE COURT: I’ll sustain the objection. Go ahead.
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) I didn’t mean to mislead you, sir. The statement says that Henry Lucas arrived at the truck stop with another man making two in all.
Do you know when Belinda Reed told you that
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Henry Lucas had arrived for the first time at the Red X Truck Stop?
She just advised me that there was two men came down the off-ramp coming towards the Red X. She said that was approximately about 6:00 p.m. in the afternoon.
Q. Would that be the afternoon of June 8th?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. So at that time you received the telephone call through your dispatcher shortly after midnight on June 9th, Mr. Lucas would have been at the Red X Truck stop for approximately six hours. Is that correct?
A. That I don’t know, sir.
Q. Well, she told you that he arrived there at 6:00 p.m. on June 8th. Is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Then you got a call from your dispatcher at midnight that he was - - that she was complaining about him being there. That’s correct, isn’t it?
A. At that time, she wasn’t - - they weren’t complaining about him.
Q. At midnight?
A. At midnight, yes, sir.
Q. That’s what I meant.
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But at 6:00 p.m. they weren’t complaining about him.
Q. But by midnight they were?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you understand that he stayed there at that truck stop for those six hours?
A. No, sir, I didn’t know whether he stayed there or not.
Q. Okay. Now, Mr. Lucas left at 2:00 in the morning. What did you do with that car?
A. I called one of the garages there and advised them there was a car up on the road on I-40 facing westbound on I-40, and I advised them that Mr. Moor advised me to have the car picked up and put in storage.
Q. Did Mr. Moor - - Go ahead. I didn’t mean to cut you off.
A. And then the garage man advised me that it would have to be in the morning before we could pick it up.
Q. Okay. Did Mr. Moor give you the keys to that car?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did Henry Lucas give you the keys to the car?
A. No, sir.
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Q. Did you go out and look at the car that night on the freeway?
A. I drove up there and I shined the light on it long enough to get the plate number off of it and where it was parked and which way it was headed.
Q. Did you check to see if it was locked or unlocked that night?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did you later find out whether it was locked or unlocked?
A. When - - The next morning I went straight in to work and the car was still there when I left, and when I came back, the car was gone so just I figured it was towed to the garage.
Q. You would drive by that place where it was parked on the freeway on your way to work?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you see that car again before July of 1985 which is when Joe Avalos and Benito Perez went to San Jon?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. When was the next time you saw that car?
A. I seen that car there at the garage.
Q. I mean, did you go look at it or search it or anything of that nature?
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No, sir, I never did go and search it.
Q. Okay.
MR. PONTON: We pass the witness at this time, Your Honor. I anticipate that both sides would need the testimony of this witness when we get to the pretrial motion to suppress evidence seized from that car. However, there would be other witnesses on that, so it might be better to get into that matter at that time even though it would require this witness to return.
THE COURT: Mr. Moody, what do you have to say to this?
MR. MOODY: We don’t mind if they take that out of order. If they want to do it now, I don’t see any problem in doing it while he is here.
THE COURT: Well, is it feasible to - -
MR. PONTON: It’s feasible, Your Honor. It’s just that I anticipate that some of the testimony from some of the other witnesses may be such that it would give me things I would then need to cross-examine this witness about, and without taking all those witnesses together, it might - - it might hamper our effective cross-examination of that whole group of witnesses of which there will be about half a dozen, Your Honor.
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THE COURT: When do you think we will get to that?
MR. MOODY: Well, we’re not even - - He is saying cross-examine. We didn’t even anticipate calling Mr. Ross as a witness on their motion to suppress the search, I mean, so I don’t see what cross he is talking about.
MR. PONTON: Well, then, direct examination by me at the time that we have the motion to suppress the searches of that car.
MR. MOODY: Well, I don’t see why he can’t just question him now. If he’s going to question him on direct. You know, I don’t care if he leads him, you know, it’s still - -
THE COURT: Well - -
MR. PONTON: Whatever Your Honor wishes.
THE COURT: I don’t - - To be honest with you, gentlemen, I don’t care. It’s you-all’s lawsuit. You try it. I’m just sitting here to listen to it.
MR. PONTON: I think it would be fairer to this defendant, Your Honor, if we could have this witness return at such time as we have the other witnesses who would testify to the numerous searches done of that vehicle at various points of time both
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with and without a warrant. Both of those motions to suppress with and without a warrant are on file in this case.
THE COURT: All right, Mr. Ponton. I have just asked the question: When do you think we would get to that part of this hearing?
MR. PONTON: I believe we would get to that, Your Honor, at the conclusion of the motions to suppress confessions.
THE COURT: Well - -
MR. PONTON: I believe that that motion - -
THE COURT: That doesn’t tell me much of anything.
MR. PONTON: Well, I - -
THE COURT: Does that mean tomorrow afternoon or - -
MR. PONTON: No, Your Honor, I would say it would be weeks from now.
THE COURT: All right. Mr. Ross, at this time if everybody is agreed, you may be excused to go on back about your duty and job. And if they need you at a later time, I assume they will get ahold of you. Thank you very much for coming in.
Yes, sir.
MR. JEWKES: Your Honor, excuse me, sir.
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Before he leaves, Mr. Ponton wanted a copy of one of the only documents that we have. We’re probably going to have to have this made before the deputy leaves so he can take the original back with him.
THE COURT: Well, I have a clerk here who can do those things for us.
Go down - - Al, make two copies of everything, bring them back. I don’t want any more copies than that. Bring them back, give them to me and we will dispense them.
MR JEWKES: All right. Your Honor, at this time, I would ask the record to reflect the state is tendering to the Defense a Quay County offense report dated 6-9-83 written by Eugene Ross. Attached therto is what is commonly referred - - what is commonly referred to as a 1029 is a vehicle entry into a computer.
THE COURT: Well, now, do we need copies of that?
MR. PONTON: He has an extra copy of this which he is giving me, I guess, Your Honor.
MR. JEWKES: That is correct, Your Honor. I just want the record to reflect.
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Editor's note: this is the official transcript and it runs verbatim, as the archive's rule for court records requires; nothing has been summarised or cut. Jerry Smith is the officer Lucas later said had supplied him with the details of the Librada Apodaca killing before any confession was taped, and his account of those September 1984 interviews is here. This archive records Henry Lee Lucas with eleven convictions, around three of them regarded as credible, against some six hundred confessions; the questioning in these pages is part of the mechanism by which that gap opened. It belongs to the El Paso County case and the 120th Judicial District, not to the Clay County trial already published as TRANSCRIPTS FROM THE TRIAL OF HENRY LEE LUCAS. Nothing said under oath in a transcript is a finding of fact, and Lucas in particular said a great many things that were not true.