By Christi Punteney
The El Paso County hearing continues, transcribed from the official record: the testimony of Greg Lucas, Buster Collins and Benjamin Art Archuleta, the grand jury testimony of Texas Ranger Bob Prince, and the statement of facts that precedes Henry Lee Lucas taking the stand. It runs verbatim. Pages 1363 to 1764.
IN THE DSTRICT COURT OF EL PASO COUNTY, TEXAS
THE STATE OF TEXAS )
)
VS. ) CAUSE NO. 43314-120
)
HENRY LEE LUCAS )
heard on
SEPTEMBER 18, 1986
Page 1363
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
A P P E A R A C E S
For the State: WILLIAM MOODY
First Assistant District Attorney
City-county Building
El Paso, TX 79901
RICHARD JEWKES
Assistant District Attorney
City-county Building
El Paso, TX 79901
Carol Pennock
Assistant District Attorney
City-county Building
El Paso, TX 79901
For the Defendant: ROD PONTON
Attorney at Law
Suite 505
Caples Building
El Paso, TX 79901
DORIS SIPES
Attorney at Law
1011 North Mesa
El Paso, TX, 79901
Page 1364
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
WITNESSES PAGE
GREG LUCAS
Continued Redirect Examination by Mr. Moody 1369
BUSTER COLLINS
Direct Examination by MR. Moody 1375
Cross-Examination by Ms. Sipes 1382
DAVID MARQUEZ
Direct Examination by Ms. Pennock 1403
Cross-Examination by Ms. Sipes 1409
Redirect Examination by Ms. Pennock 1438
Recross Examination by Ms. Sipes 1439
MARTIN BELTRAN
Direct Examination by Ms. Pennock 1441
Cross-Examination by Mr. Ponton 1147
BENJAMIN ART ARCHULETA
Direct Examination by Ms. Pennock 1476
Cross-Examination by Mr. Ponton 1480
Redirect Examination by Ms. Pennock 1483
BOB PRINCE
Direct Examination by Mr. Moody 1489
Cross-Examination by Mr. Ponton 1509
Page 1365
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
WITNESSES PAGE
BENJAMIN ART ARCHULETA
Direct Examination by Ms. Pennock 1476
Cross-Examination by Mr. Ponton 1480
Redirect Examination by Ms. Pennock 1483
MARTIN BELTRAN
Direct Examination by Ms. Pennock 1441
Cross-Examination by Mr. Ponton 1147
BUSTER COLLINS
Direct Examination by MR. Moody 1375
Cross-Examination by Ms. Sipes 1382
DAVID MARQUEZ
Direct Examination by Ms. Pennock 1403
Cross-Examination by Ms. Sipes 1409
Redirect Examination by Ms. Pennock 1438
Recross Examination by Ms. Sipes 1439
BOB PRINCE
Direct Examination by Mr. Moody 1489
Cross-Examination by Mr. Ponton 1509
Page 1366
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
EXHIBIT DESCRIPTION MARKED IDENTIFIED OFFERED REC’S
S-20 Audiotape 1484 1484 1484 1485
Page 1367
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
THE STATE OF TEXAS )
)
VS. ) CASUE NO. 43314-120
)
HENRY LEE LUCAS )
BE IT REMEMBERED that on the 18th day of September, 198, beginning at 9:15 a.m., came on to be heard the continuation of pretrial motions in the above styled and numbered cause, before the HONORABLE BRUNSON MOORE, Judge Presiding in and for the 120th Judicial District Court, and that the same was reported by Meryl Wersinger, Certified Shorthand Reported and Notary Public in and for the County Court at Law Number Four, El Paso County, Texas, and that the following proceedings were had as follows, to-wit:
Page 1368
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
THE COURT: Please be seated, ladies and gentlemen.
Mr. Moody, I think you have the witness, don’t you?
MR. MOODY: You’re correct, Your Honor. It’s our turn to go back with Greg Lucas here. I only have a few more questions.
CONTINUED REDIRECT EXAMIANTION
BY MR. MOODY:
Q. Now, Detective Lucas, is this a transcript - - or is this a transcript of the tape recording in the van ride that you were involved in on February 13th, 1984, I believe?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. Now, the first time that I note in that that you turned the tape recorder off, which the defense attorney was bringing that issue up, was 12:11 p.m.
A. Yes.
Q. Is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Why was the tape recorder stopped?
A. Well, at that time we were going to go across town to the west side, and then shortly after
Page 1369
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
that we decided to go eat lunch at the truck stop.
Q. That was right after the time when he mentioned the fact about the old lady in Mexico. Is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And the tape recorder was off for approximately five minutes.
A. That’s correct.
Q. Is that right? And where were you going in that five-minute time frame?
A. Well, like I say, we were on our way - - we are going to drive to the west side where he had talked about it in the first statement, and then during that time we had decided to turn around and go back and eat. But we were in El Paso on Interstate 10.
Q. All right. And apparently during that five-minute time period you must have mentioned something that you thought might be of some interest and you turned the machine back on. Is that correct?
A. That’s correct.
Q. All right. And then as soon as that was over, three minutes later at 12:19, you’re talking about now: Greg Lucas: “You want to go back to the truck stop and eat?”
Page 1370
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
David Marquez: “It would be a lot better than coming down to some other place.”
“I now show 12:19. I’m going to stop now.”
That stop was for lunch?
Yes, that’s correct.
Q. Is that correct? That was a lunch where?
A. At the Petro truck stop in Horizon City.
Q. Then the machine is turned back on at 1:35 p.m.?
A. Yes.
Q. That’s what the transcript shows. That was a time period that you-all were eating lunch?
A. Yes, and also on the drive on Interstate 10 to where - - well, turned near Airway.
Q. All right. Now, there were times when you would be driving fairly long distances, obviously. You were at one point way out past Horizon City, you were out past Horizon City and another point you would be way over on the west side of El Paso County?
A. That’s correct.
Q. And would there be time periods where there would be, just be, you know, no discussion, just drive time?
A. That’s correct.
Q. And rather than have the tape recorder just
Page 1371
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
With nothing, you just turned it off?
That’s correct.
Q. Then apparently from 1:35 to approximately 1:45 from the Chevron truck stop, you had it on there for approximately 10 minutes. What where you doing in that time period?
A. While we were talking?
Q. Well, where were you traveling from? We knew that you were - - at the first point you were talking about the Chevron truck stop?
A. That’s correct.
Q. And then the next time we see an actual time reflected is at 1:45.
A. We - - At that time we had just - - we were - -
Q. That you were going to stop the tape?
A. That’s correct. We were on the interstate between the truck stop at Airway before you get to the North-South Freeway. That’s where he was talking about the bars. We were trying to identify the bars he said he stopped at. And we couldn’t do so, and that’s when I turned off the tape.
Q. Then you turned off the tape and again it starts up at about 2:03 p.m. What were you doing in that time frame?
A. It took us that long to get to where he
Page 1372
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
pointed out Trans Mountain Road.
Q. That was the travel from the central part of El Paso on Interstate 10 out to the Trans Mountain Road exit?
A. Yes.
Q. When you were outside of the car, when you stopped the car out there, was the tape recorder off or on when you were out at Trans Mountain Road?
A. We stopped the tape recorder when we got out of the van.
Q. Those times are noted around 2:43 and 2:58 p.m.?
A. That’s correct.
Q. Then there is a trip down to Canutillo, which you already went over?
A. Yes.
MR. MOODY: Pass the witness.
MS. SIPES: I have no questions, Your Honor.
THE COURT: May this witness be excused?
MR. MOODY: Yes, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Thank you Officer Lucas.
Who will be your next witness, Mr. Moody?
MR. MOODY: Texas Ranger Buster Collins.
THE COURT: Who?
MR. MOODY: Buster Collins, Texas Ranger.
Page 1373
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
THE COURT: Officer Lucas, look in that room, jury room and see if he’s in there? Would you ask him to come in? Do you know him?
GREG LUCAS: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Ask him to come in, if you don’t mind.
MR. PONTON: Also, Your Honor, before this witness left I wanted to inquire from him on the pictures that the DA’s office were trying to find yesterday that were shown to Henry Lucas during his December 20th interview.
GREG LUCAS: I could not locate them, Your Honor. Detective Curtis Flynn has control of the investigation. His father became ill last night, and did not come to work. I will see if I can locate them this morning.
THE COURT: Mr. Lucas, if you could, you know, see if you can find them for us.
GREG LUCAS: Yes, sir, I will.
THE COURT: If you don’t mind.
Sir, would you please raise your right hand?
Have a seat, please.
CALVIN JERRY COLLINS,
Page 1374
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
THE COURT: Officer Lucas, look in that room, jury room and see if he’s in there? Would you ask him to come in? Do you know him?
GREG LUCAS: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Ask him to come in, if you don’t mind.
MR. PONTON: Also, Your Honor, before this witness left I wanted to inquire from him on the pictures that the DA’s office were trying to find yesterday that were shown to Henry Lucas during his December 20th interview.
GREG LUCAS: I could not locate them, Your Honor. Detective Curtis Flynn has control of the investigation. His father became ill last night, and did not come to work. I will see if I can locate them this morning.
THE COURT: Mr. Lucas, if you could, you know, see if you can find them for us.
GREG LUCAS: Yes, sir, I will.
THE COURT: If you don’t mind.
Sir, would you please raise your right hand?
Have a seat, please.
CALVIN JERRY COLLINS,
Page 1374
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
having been first duly sworn by the Court to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, was examined and testified as follows:
BY MR. MOODY:
Q. All right. Would you state your name, please?
A. Calvin Jerry Collins.
Q. How are you employed, sir?
A. I’m a Texas Ranger for the state of Texas.
Q. How long have you been a Texas Ranger?
A. Five years.
Q. Prior to that, how long had you been involved in law enforcement?
A. 14 years.
Q. So you have a total period of time in law enforcement of 19 years?
A. Just a little more than 19 years, yes, sir.
Q. And as far as your assignment as a Texas Ranger, what area have you been assigned to as your duty and location most recently?
A. The El Paso, Hudspeth and Culberson County areas.
Q. What would be considered the 34th Judicial
Page 1375
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
District of Texas?
Yes, sir.
Q. How long have you been assigned to this area?
A. Five years.
Q. Are you the only Texas Ranger assigned to this metropolitan and the two rural counties of Hudspeth and Culbertson?
A. Yes, sir, I am.
Q. And what superiors do you answer to as far as your headquarters for your company?
A. Captain Gene Powell of Midland, Texas, and Sergeant Bob Fabens, also in Midland, Texas.
Q. Now, regarding Henry Lucas, I’d like to draw your attention back to September of 1984 and ask you if you were in Sierra Blanca, Texas, that day?
A. Yes, sir, I was.
Q. And what was the purpose of you being in Sierra Blanca, Texas, which is part of Hudspeth County, in Hudspeth County?
A. Henry Lucas was being brought in by two other rangers to look at a murder site. Since I am assigned to cover the Hudspeth County area, of course, it’s customary for the ranger over that area to be there when others come in from out of the area. So I went down there to assist in transporting and
Page 1376
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
security on that particular case.
Q. All right. Were you briefed in any way as to what kind of case was going to be discussed or worked on down there?
A. No, sir, I was not.
Q. Your sole role was in transportation and security?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you had no cases that you were working on Henry Lucas/
A. No, sir, I did not.
Q. Had you been involved in the investigation and murder of Librada Apodaca here in El Paso County?
A. No, sir, I had not.
Q. Are you customarily involved in El Paso city homicide cases?
A. No, sir.
Q. Have you ever been involved in and El Paso city homicide cases?
A. Not directly, no, sir.
Q. So when you went down there on the 19th of September, 1984, did you have any knowledge whatsoever about the Librada Apodaca case?
A. No, sir.
Q. Didn’t even know that there was such a case?
Page 1377
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
No, sir, I did not.
Q. Do you remember seeing Sergeant Jimmy Apodaca of the El Paso Police Department and Detective Benny Perez there late that afternoon, early evening?
A. Yes, sir. There in Sierra Blanca, yes, sir.
Q. Were you aware that they were even going to be there?
A. No, sir, I was not.
Q. Were you present at any time when they interviewed Henry Lucas?
A. No, sir, I was not.
Q. Did you ever interview Henry Lucas - -
A. No, sir.
Q. - - yourself on the 19th of September?
A. No, sir.
Q. After Detective Perez interviewed Henry Lucas, did you become any more involved in what was going on there with the Librada Apodaca case?
A. No, sir, I did not.
Q. Now, on the next day, September the 20th, 1984, Henry Lucas was flown into El Paso, Texas. Were you present at all during that day’s travels with Henry Lucas?
A. No, sir, I was not.
Page 1378
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. Were you busy on some other assignment or what?
A. Yes, sir. I had another case going. Although I knew they were coming in, I had already made commitments for the next day and I advised them that night that I would not been available the next day to assist in transportation.
Q. Now, back on February, I believe, 13th, 1984, Henry Lucas was in El Paso with Ranger Clayton Smith and at that time Detective Greg Lucas of the El Paso of the El Paso Police Department, I believe, Lieutenant David Marquez of the sheriff’s department. Were you aware of that incident?
A. Yes, sir, I was.
Q. Were you present at that particular meeting?
A. Yes, sir, I was.
Q. What was your job on that occasion?
A. To provide security and transportation for the party.
Q. Were you in your own vehicle that day?
A. Yes, sir, I was.
Q. Was Henry Lucas being transported in your vehicle or another vehicle?
A. No, sir, he was being transported in a van.
Q. Were you in the van at all?
Page 1379
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
No, sir, I was not.
Q. Okay. Where were you located when the van was going around different parts of El Paso County?
A. I followed behind.
Q. Did the van ever travel down to the Ysleta area that day?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did the van ever travel south of Interstate 10 into the lower valley at all?
A. No, sir.
Q. On October 25th, 1984, Henry Lucas again was present in El Paso County this time with Detective Benito Perez, Detective Ed Uribe, Sergeant Jimmy Apodaca, again traveling to some other possible Lucas crime scenes. Do you recall that incident?
A. Yes, sir. I’m not sure about the date, but I do recall the fact that they came back a second time, yes, sir.
Q. That was the day Henry Lucas was indicted for the Librada Apodaca murder.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you recall that? Were you present on that occasion?
A. Yes, sir, I was.
Q. Again what was your role and function that
Page 1380
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
day?
Again to provide security and transportation for the group.
Q. Did you travel in the vehicle with Henry Lucas on that occasion?
A. No, sir, I did not.
Q. Did you go to the - - Were you present in the grand jury room when Henry Lucas testified?
A. No, sir, I was not.
Q. Did you leave the courthouse before the grand jury returned the indictment?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. Did you testify before the grand jury as a witness?
A. No, sir, I did not.
Q. Up until October 25th, 1984, did you know anything about the Librada Apodaca murder?
A. No, sir, I did not.
Q. Subsequently, it would have been, I believe, late May, early June of 1985, did you assist the 34th Judicial District Attorney’s office in traveling to
Page 1381
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
various spots in Texas, I believe, Louisiana, in regards to the Henry Lucas investigation?
Yes, sir, I did.
Q. Was that the first time that you were made privy of any of the information in the Librada Apodaca case?
A. Yes, sir, it is.
Q. Did you ever feed Henry Lucas any information about the Librada Apodaca case?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did anyone ever show him photographs of that case in your presence?
A. No, sir.
MR. MOODY: Pass the witness.
BY MS. SIPES:
Q. Ranger Collins, you have been with the Texas Rangers for how many years?
A. Five years.
Page 1382
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. And how many Texas Rangers are there?
A. There are 80 field investigators and 14 supervisors, 94 total.
Q. 94 total. Are you aware, sir, that some 70 Texas Rangers cleared murders in the state of Texas through confessions of Henry Lee Lucas?
A. No, sir, I am not.
Q. You’re not aware of that?
A. No, ma’am.
Q. Did you ever investigate any murders with Henry Lee Lucas?
A. No, ma’am, I did not.
MS. SIPES: May I approach the witness, Your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes, ma’am.
Q. (BY MS. SIPES) Ranger Collins, I’m going to show you what is a publication of the task force, the Texas Rangers task force that was working out of Williamson County, Georgetown, Texas, and it purports to be a log of cases that were investigated with Henry Lee Lucas. And I’ll ask you if you can tell the Court what this notation, the very first notation on this particular page show, sir?
A. Yes, ma’am. On September the 19th, it has officer’s name, Clayton McKinney and Buster
Page 1383
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Collins, from Alpine and El Paso. Interview time, 3:00 p.m. Ending time, 5:00 p.m. Interview on one case.
Q. Okay. What does that have reference to?
A. I suppose that would be the investigation that Clayton McKinney was involved in in Hudspeth County in which Mr. Lucas was brought to Hudspeth County on the date Mr. Moody had asked about earlier.
Q. And did you assist in that in any way?
A. Transportation and security, yes, ma’am, I did.
Q. Can you be more specific as to what you did in the transportation and security into that particular case on the 19th day of September, 1984?
A. On that particular day, a Department of Public Safety aircraft had flown Henry Lucas, Joe Coleman from Pecos, Clayton McKinney out of Alpine to Sierra Blanca for the purpose of trying to locate a crime scene Henry Lucas had told them about.
I offered a vehicle to assist in transportation of the pilot and the two rangers and Henry Lucas. Henry Lucas and Clayton McKinney and Joe Coleman were in a vehicle in front of me.
I followed them to an area that Henry Lucas claimed to be a crime area or an offense area, and
Page 1384
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
after that, I followed them back to the sheriff’s office in Sierra Blanca where we met with two El Paso Police Department officers. They interviewed Henry Lucas. Approximately two hours later he was taken back to the air strip, they were put on a plane and they flew - - took off at approximately 9:30 or 10:00 that night.
Q. On this log it has cases cleared, and it says, “murder or other”. What does that mean, do you know?
A. No, ma’am, I don’t.
Q. This was a murder investigation, wasn’t it, that you were involved in with Clayton McKinney?
A. Yes, ma’am, it was.
Q. And it was not any other crime; it was murder?
A. Yes, ma’am.
Q. And was it cleared that day, as you know that term to be used, with the task force?
A. Not to my knowledge.
Q. What knowledge do you have of the investigation and its results that day?
A. When Ranger McKinney arrived there, I was told at that time that there had been a rancher that had been killed or murdered on a ranch north of
Page 1385
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Sierra Blanca same 15 miles. He wanted to see if Henry Lucas could take them to the scene.
They got in their vehicles, I followed behind in mine. We were to a ranch house, the ranch house where, in fact, the murder had occurred. Mr. Lucas took them to the barn where the body was found and tried to describe it to him.
Ranger McKinney was not satisfied with the facts that were given by Henry Lucas as to where the body was found and other conditions around there, so therefore he didn’t feel like he could clear the case at that time. What he has done with is since or what he did with it afterwards, I have no knowledge of it.
Q. Okay. So the truth of that matter is that they were able to get to the crime scene out in a ranch country with Mr. Lucas in the car and Clayton McKinney in the same vehicle. Is that correct?
A. Yes, ma’am, it is.
Q. You were not in that vehicle so you don’t know what transpired?
A. No, I do not.
Q. But you know they got to the crime scene?
A. Yes, ma’am, they did.
Q. And that once they arrived at that crime scene, a man had been murdered who was from El Paso.
Page 1386
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Isn’t that correct?
I’m not sure about that. The only thing I know was that it was supposedly a rancher who had been beaten to death in his barn and his body was found in a barn by neighbors.
Q. Okay. And he had - - this particular victim had driven a car out there, hadn’t he?
A. I have - - I don’t know.
Q. You didn’t listen to them when you got out of the car there at the crime scene?
A. No, ma’am. As far as trying to listen to specific details about the crime, since I wasn’t involved in the investigation, you know, I didn’t pay that much attention to it.
Q. You got out of your car there at the crime scene, did you not?
A. Yes, ma’am, I did.
Q. You got up there and walked along with Ranger McKinney and Henry Lee Lucas, did you not?
A. For awhile, yes, ma’am, I did.
Q. And you were in close proximity and walking with them and providing security, were you not?
A. Yes, ma’am, I was.
Q. As you walked around that, there was a little corral there where a car had been parked.
Page 1387
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Isn’t that true?
I don’t know that there was a car parked there, ma’am. The only thing I - -
Q. Was there a corral that you-all went to?
A. Yes, ma’am. There was a corral there, yes, ma’am.
Q. There was an old barn or two, wasn’t there?
A. I believe there was one, yes, ma’am.
Q. Well, there was a shed and a barn. Isn’t that correct?
A. That could be, yes, ma’am.
Q. And there was a screen door out there, wasn’t there, kind of hanging off?
A. That I don’t recall.
Q. You don’t recall Henry Lee Lucas choosing the wrong place as far as the body was concerned?
A. Yes, ma’am, I do recall that.
Q. Do you recall that Ranger McKinney had fed some facts to Henry Lee Lucas that were inaccurate in order to test the validity of this confession. Do you recall that?
A. No, ma’am, I do not.
Q. You don’t recall that inaccurate facts were fed to Henry Lee Lucas in order to test the validity and that Henry Lee Lucas failed?
Page 1388
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
No, ma’am.
Q. And that Ranger McKinney became disgusted on the spot and the investigation was ended immediately?
A. No, ma’am.
Q. You don’t recall that part?
A. No, ma’am. Since I have no knowledge of the actual crime or crime scene, I didn’t know whether what Ranger McKinney was discussing with him was factual or not.
Q. So it’s your testimony, sir, then, that you drove from El Paso - - Was that on your offer or upon the order to appear in Hudspeth County?
A. No, ma’am. Any time a ranger from another assigned area comes into my area or if I go into another ranger’s area, I always contact that ranger and request assistance, just as another ranger would do for me or to me, and that’s what happened in this particular case.
Q. They contacted you?
A. Yes, ma’am.
Q. And asked you to come. Do you have any reason for your name and phone number appearing in the work noted of Detective Benny Perez on the 19th and the 18th of September, 1983 - - I mean, ’84?
A. No, ma’am, I do not.
Page 1389
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. You were not contacted by any of those officers?
A. No, ma’am. Not before that night, no, ma’am.
Q. Before that night?
A. The night of the 19th when Mr. Lucas was brought to Sierra Blanca.
Q. Were you contacted by Ranger McKinney and told that the El Paso police officers would be there?
A. I don’t recall that, no, ma’am.
Q. Do you recall receiving a phone call from Ranger McKinney?
A. Yes, ma’am, I do.
Q. And what was that conversation about?
A. They were going to fly Henry Lucas to the airstrip north - - northeast of Sierra Blanca, that afternoon. They wanted to see if they could - - if Henry Lucas could take them to a crime scene.
Q. And did Ranger McKinney tell you that he was going to feed some false information to Henry Lee Lucas to test the validity of his confession?
A. No, ma’am, I don’t recall that at all.
Q. You don’t recall that. So it’s your testimony, then, sir, that you drove to Sierra Blanca, that you followed along a ranch road for a number of
Page 1390
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
miles north of Sierra Blanca, Texas, into ranch country behind a car which contained Henry Lucas and Clayton McKinney and that you got out if the car when they stopped at a ranch headquarters and that you walked with them around the scene, that you never heard any of the details of the crime they were investigating and you don’t know their results of that investigation?
No, ma’am, I do not.
Q. Okay. Sir, I’ll hand you the same Texas Ranger task force log and ask you if it’s true that you were included in an investigation which occurred on 10-23 of ’84 into the death of the French prostitute in northeast El Paso which Henry Lee Lucas had confessed to killing. Is that correct?
A. Well, I know that Henry Lucas was brought here on several occasions that I assisted with transportation and security. Again I don’t recall exactly what the cases were about. I do know that on one particular incident there was an investigation involving a female from the northeast that supposedly was murdered and taken, her body dumped on the west side of the mountain.
Q. Okay. And, sir, on this particular date, did you travel with them in search of the body of the
Page 1391
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
French prostitute? Yes or no.
Yes.
Q. And is this case marked under cases cleared? Is there a mark under cases cleared, sir?
A. There is a dot, a green dot. What that signifies, I don’t know.
Q. For the French prostitute?
A. Yes, ma’am.
Q. And does this same log include the investigation where Henry Lee Lucas was taken to the river where a white female was killed, okay, and is this also marked under cases cleared?
A. Yes, ma’am.
Q. And underneath that, sir, is there a reference to your involvement in investigation from 8:00 a.m. to 10:30 p.m. where you cleared the above murder of Sima Warren occurring on 4-12-76 and Lucas appeared before the El Paso County Grand Jury. Is that right?
A. No, ma’am. I did not clear any cases by Henry Lucas.
Q. Well, isn’t this your name here, Buster Collins, Texas Ranger?
A. Yes, ma’am. Yes ma’am, it is.
Q. El Paso on 10-5-84. Is that correct?
Page 1392
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Yes, ma’am, it is.
Q. And were you with them from 8:00 to 10:30 p.m.?
A. Yes, ma’am, I was.
Q. And does this say here in the Texas Rangers task force that you-all cleared the murder of Sima Warren? Is that what it says?
A. It says that on the log, yes, ma’am.
Q. And then underneath that, there is some ditto marks, isn’t that correct, indicating you were involved in that investigation again on 12-26?
A. Yes, ma’am.
Q. And that this investigation also lasted from 10:00 a.m. - - from 8:00 a.m. to 10:00 a.m. and you interviewed reference other cases in the El Paso area.
Now, what other cases did you interview him in the El Paso area?
Ma’am, I did not interview Henry Lucas on any of the cases in the El Paso area.
Q. So then it’s your testimony - - Am I correct that your testimony, then, is that this log is inaccurate as to the murders that were cleared as to the times and dates that you interviewed Henry Lee Lucas?
A. I can’t say that, ma’am.
Page 1393
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. Well, is that correct or incorrect?
A. Well, again, ma’am, I can’t testify to the validity of that chart. The only thing I can testify to is that I aided in this particular case by assisting with transportation and security.
Q. Okay.
A. I don’t have any idea whether they cleared the cases or that was involved.
Q. But it does say that you were involved in clearing Sima Warren. It does say that you investigated or interviewed Henry Lee Lucas regarding his involvement in other El Paso cases, does it not?
A. Yes, ma’am, it does.
Q. It does say that you cleared a case of a French prostitute or helped to clear a case of a French prostitute, does it not?
A. My name is on it, yes, ma’am.
Q. Okay. The report which says you cleared the cases of Sima Warren which occurred on 4-12-76, are you aware that the attorney general of Texas did an investigation into the Lucas task force?
A. Yes, ma’am, I am.
Q. And have you had the opportunity to look at that report, sir?
A. No, ma’am, I have not.
Page 1394
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. Have you been told that there is an exhibit attached to that report which is a receipt for rent showing that Henry Lee Lucas was present and residing at the Benjamin trailer park in Port Deposit, Maryland, on the date that Sima Warren was killed in El Paso, Texas?
A. No, ma’am, I am not.
Q. To your knowledge, during the time that you spent assisting in the investigation of Henry Lee Lucas, did you ever see or hear any of the El Paso Police Department officers, any of the officers from the El Paso sheriff’s department or any of the Texas Rangers make any inquiry of Mr. Lucas as to where he was living at any particular time?
A. I don’t recall that, no, ma’am.
Q. Do you ever recall any investigation or inquiry as to where Mr. Lucas was receiving mail, working or residing at any time?
A. The only thing that I recall about that is just conversation, general conversation that Henry Lucas was living in Florida at one time. However, as far as dates or anything of that nature, I can’t be specific. Again, that was just over general conversation. But - -
Q. You heard numerous times various numbers
Page 1395
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Used as far as Henry Lee Lucas was considered and the confessions that he had made to murders. Isn’t that true?
Yes, ma’am.
Q. Large numbers, in the hundreds?
A. Yes, ma’am.
Q. Did you ever hear anyone question Mr. Lucas with regard to why no blood was ever found around or about Mr. Lucas, either upon him personally or upon any of his belongings?
A. No, ma’am.
Q. That was ever matched to any suspect - -
A. No, ma’am.
Q. - - I mean, any victim?
A. No.
Q. Nobody ever questioned him about that?
A. Not in my presence, no.
Q. As to why he would be involved in a trail that included over 500 murders yet there was never any evidence of any blood or any fingerprints?
A. No, ma’am, not in my presence did anyone ask him those particular questions.
Q. Did you ever read a book called The Hand of Death?
A. No, ma’am, I did not.
Page 1396
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. Did you ever hear reports that Henry Lucas was involved in cannibalism?
A. Again, general conversation. That’s about all.
Q. Do you know whether any testing was done by the DPS labs to determine whether these reports of cannibalism had any validity as far as physical evidence is concerned, blood or any other evidence?
A. No, ma’am, I haven’t heard that. I don’t know if they did.
Q. Just as a matter of being a law enforcement officer for some 19 years, you know that as a general rule it’s very, very difficult to get rid of the presence of blood. Isn’t that true?
A. If you keep the clothing or the articles of clothing that you’re wearing at the time, I would say there would be traces, yes.
Q. And that even months and years later, you can go back to an automobile or to a home and that you can - - a solution can be sprayed upon that area to even lift blood out of other substances. Isn’t that true?
A. I suppose that’s a possibility. I’m not up on these lab procedures, so I couldn’t say for sure. I’m sure it’s a possibility, though.
Page 1397
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. The Texas Rangers are officially part of the Texas Department of Public Safety, are they not?
A. Yes, ma’am.
Q. And the Texas Department of Public Safety is the agency charged with the scientific investigation and the maintenance of criminal laboratories here in Texas, are they not?
A. Yes, ma’am.
Q. And so the Texas Rangers have at their disposal or access to some of the finest scientific laboratories in the country, do you not?
A. I would so, yes, ma’am.
Q. Do you know whether they have ever found, by the use of those laboratories, any blood on or around Henry Lucas or on or around any place that he lived or on or around any automobile that he ever purportedly killed one of these victims in?
A. I’m not aware of it if they did.
Q. Do you think that would probably be the normal procedure?
A. Yes, ma’am.
Q. Do you know whether any of these officers ever discussed with Henry Lee Lucas why none of these surgical gloves were ever found around any of these over 500 murder scenes?
Page 1398
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
I never heard an officer ask him that, no.
Q. You never heard an officer ask him. They were never found on or about Henry Lee Lucas or any of his living quarters or any of his belongings?
A. I never heard an officer discuss that with him, no, ma’am.
Q. Sir, are you aware of a Texas Ranger report, which lists the different Texas Rangers that interviewed Henry Lee Lucas, reflects that 72 percent of the field officers of the Texas Rangers in the state of Texas interviewed Henry Lee Lucas as to murders in the state of Texas and that they cleared some probably 65 murders?
A. No, ma’am. I have never seen the report.
Q. That’s quite an accomplishment for one agency, is it not, to clear some 60-some-odd murders in one state that had been unsolvable theretofore?
A. It’s my understanding that the vast majority of the cases that they mark as cleared were cleared by other agencies with the rangers’ assistance as far as providing Mr. Lucas transportation to their locations. I don’t know that these - - this number of cases were cleared by the ranger service.
Q. Do you recognize these names as fellow field officers, sir?
Page 1399
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Yes, sir - - I mean - - Excuse me. Yes, ma’am, I do.
Q. Wouldn’t you agree that this makes for great statistics, the clearance of some 60-odd murders by any one agency?
A. If statistics is what you’re looking for, yes, ma’am.
Q. And you would agree, sir, that the statistics you looked at that involved your name are inaccurate. Isn’t that true?
A. Well, yes, ma’am. As far as my being involved in, specifically involved with these investigations, other than transportation and security I did not participate in the actual investigation of those particular cases.
Q. Okay. But, sir, isn’t it true that this reflects that a murder in Sierra Blanca was cleared by you and Clayton McKinney on the 19th day of - - September 19th, ’84? That’s inaccurate, isn’t it?
A. Yes, ma’am, that is.
Q. Does it also reflect that you participated in the clearance of Sima Warren here in El Paso? That’s inaccurate, isn’t it?
A. That’s correct.
Q. They are great statistics, but they are
Page 1400
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
inaccurate?
In those two points that you pointed out to me, you know, I think they should have gone a little further as far as clarifying exactly what each individual had to do with the particular case. In my particular point of view, I did nothing more than transportation, security for Mr. Lucas.
Q. And you didn’t clear any murder of a French prostitute in northeast El Paso as having been done by Henry Lucas, did you, sir?
A. No, ma’am, I did not.
Q. Thank you.
MS. SIPES: I pass the witness, Your Honor.
MR. MOODY: No further questions.
THE COURT: Thank you. May this ranger officer be excused?
MR. MOODY: Yes, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Thank you, sir. You may be excused.
Mr. Moody, you want to see me? I’ll take five minutes, if you want to.
(A recess was taken.)
THE COURT: Who is going to be next?
MR. MOODY: David Marquez.
THE COURT: Who?
Page 1401
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
BENJAMIN ART ARCHULETA,
Having been first duly sworn by the Court to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, was examined and testified as follows:
BY MS. PENNOCK:
Q. Would you please state your name for the record?
A. Benjamin Art Archuleta.
Q. How are you currently employed?
A. I’m a lieutenant with the Dona Ana County Sheriff’s Department in Las Cruces, New Mexico.
Q. How long have you been so employed?
A. 11 years.
Q. Have you ever met in person Henry Lee Lucas?
A. No, ma’am.
Q. Have you ever had occasion to talk on the telephone to someone who identified themselves as Henry Lee Lucas?
A. Yes, ma’am.
Q. When did that conversation occur?
A. July 17th of 1983. I believe it was the 15th of July ’83.
Q. Would it refresh your memory to see a
Page 1476
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
transcript of that conversation?
Yes, ma’am.
MS. PENNOCK: May I approach the witness, Your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes, ma’am.
Q. (BY MS. PENNOCK) The document I have handed to you, Lieutenant, is that a transcript of the conversation, the telephone conversation that you had with Henry Lee Lucas?
A. Yes, ma’am.
Q. Does it refresh your memory as to the date of that conversation?
A. Yes, ma’am. July 15th, 1983.
Q. Now, other than that phone conversation on July 15th, 1983, have you had any other conversation with Henry Lee Lucas?
A. No, ma’am.
Q. Have you listened to anybody else’s conversation with Henry Lee Lucas other than that date?
A. No, ma’am.
Q. On July 15th, 1983, who was present, at least on your end of the telephone, during that conversation?
A. Myself and Investigator Charlie Engleking.
Page 1477
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. Now, did you place a phone call to someone in order to initiate that phone conversation?
A. Yes, ma’am.
Q. And who was it that you spoke to initially?
A. I don’t know the name of the individual, but I believe it was the sheriff of the agency where Mr. Lucas was being detained.
Q. Had you expected to actually talk to Henry Lee Lucas on that day?
A. No, ma’am.
Q. So were you initially prepared to record that telephone conversation?
A. No, ma’am.
Q. So you were initially prepared to record that telephone conversation?
A. No, ma’am.
Now, on that transcript that you have identified, I believe it indicates that a conversation is in progress when the recorder comes on. Is that correct? A. Yes, ma’am.
Q. Approximately how long did it take you after you started talking to Henry Lee Lucas to get your recorder and get it on?
A. Maybe a couple of minutes.
Q. Now, basically what was it that you discussed with Henry Lee Lucas that day?
A. He provided information pertaining to an
Page 1478
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
alleged homicide in which he alleged he picked up a female in Deming, New Mexico, at a truck stop and that the young lady had allegedly been killed somewhere in New Mexico, possibly within out jurisdiction, being Dona Ana County.
Q. Did you have any particular cases in mind to investigate when you talked to Henry Lee Lucas?
A. Yes, ma’am.
Q. And what were those case?
We had two unsolved homicides, being interstate deaths, one of a female that had been found on Interstate 10 west of Los Cruces next - - well, nearby to the Border Patrol checkpoint, and the other one being a Chinese individual, male, that had been found dad near the Anthony rest area.
Q. Now, have you at any time discusses the murder of Librada Apodaca here in El Paso with anyone?
A. No, ma’am.
Q. Do you know anything about that case at all?
A. No, ma’am.
Q. Did you discuss anything about any El Paso cases during your phone conversation with Henry Lee Lucas?
A. No, ma’am.
Q. Did anyone else in your presence discuss any
Page 1479
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
El Paso case with Henry Lee Lucas?
No, ma’am.
MS. PENNOCK: Pass the witness.
BY MR. PONTON.
Q. Lieutenant, Henry Lee Lucas admitted to you on the telephone that he had strangled one woman and that he stabbed another with a knife. Do you recall that?
A. I would have to refer to the transcript. I don’t recall.
Q. How did you come to call Henry Lucas in Montaque County? Why did you think he might be responsible for the two deaths that you were investigating?
A. I don’t recall the specific incident that led me to call. I believe it was a teletype that had come out in which it had said that the vehicle which Mr. Lucas had originally abandoned had been found in New Mexico and his MO was to leave a person dead near the side of the road, and any agency that was - - that had such cases unsolved could contact Montaque County and get, you know, further information to see if the MO might be similar.
Page 1480
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. Do you recall if that was a teletype from the Texas Rangers? A. I don’t recall that, sir. I attempted to find the original teletype, but I was not able to do so.
So what it is, I just called over to see if I could get basic information on the MO, and I was surprised to have Mr. Lucas cone on the line after a couple minutes of speaking with the sheriff, I believe.
Q. Did you review the statement that you took from Henry Lee Lucas before you came here to testify today? A. I attempted to find my copy. I was not able to do so. At about 12:30 today I was provided with a copy, and I quickly read through it in the last hour.
Q. And what Henry Lucas confessed to you that day was to picking up two girls at two different times and strangling one of them and knifing the other after having had voluntary sex with each of them. Isn’t that substantially the way the stories went as given to you by Henry Lucas on the telephone?
A. Are we talking about one of the girls being the one from Deming or is this another case, perhaps?
Q. Well, I believe these are the two offenses that Henry Lucas talked with you about.
Page 1481
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
I recall him talking about the girl in Deming and then a possible other victim from the Tucson area, but I don’t remember the circumstances of the Tucson. I would have to refer to the transcript and try to find it in there.
MR. PONTON: May I approach the witness, Your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes, sir.
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) I can’t find the page number here, but here I have circled a reference where Henry Lucas is asked by you, “Was she killed inside your car, sir?”
And Henry Lucas says yes or “Yeah.”
And then you ask him, “You say you used a butcher knife?” And his response was, “Yeah.”
Is that correct?
Yes, sir.
Q. Did you ever go look at that car that Henry Lucas - -
A. No, sir.
Q. Did you ever find out if there was any blood found in that car?
A. No, sir.
Q. And here at the next page, didn’t you ask Henry, “Was she pretty well bloody?”
Page 1482
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
And Henry says, “Well, not what you call real bloody, just she was bleeding quite a bit.”
Yes, sir.
Q. Now, were you ever able to clear the two murder cases that you had in your jurisdiction based on Henry Lucas’ interview with you?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did you consider this interview credible?
A. At that moment or at this moment?
Q. At this moment?
A. No, sir.
MR. PONTON: We pass the witness, Your Honor.
BY MS. PENNOCK
Q. Just one other thing, Lieutenant. I believe that you said that recently you have been contacted by the defense or some of their representatives. Is that correct?
A. Yes, ma’am.
Q. And they were interested in you trying to find the tape?
A. Yes, ma’am.
Q. And did you, in fact, find that and bring that here today?
Page 1483
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Yes, ma’am, I have the original cassette which this transcript is derived from.
MS. PENNOCK: May I approach the witness, Your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes, ma’am.
(State’s exhibit marked, S-20.)
THE COURT: Is that going to be a state exhibit?
COURT REPORTER: Yes.
THE COURT: Has anyone heard it? Have you heard it?
MS. PENNOCK: No, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Have you heard it?
MR. PONTON: No, your honor.
MS. PENNOCK: The main purpose for offering it at this time is just to get it as part of the record so that the defense can have a copy of it, because I believe that they want a copy of it.
Q. (BY MS. PENNOCK) I show you what has been marked for identification as State’s Exhibit Number 20. Is that the tape that you made of your conversation with Henry Lee Lucas on July 15th, 1983?
A. Yes, ma’am.
MS. PENNOCK: At this time, Your Honor, the state would offer this into evidence for purposes of
Page 1484
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
this hearing and to make it available to the defense.
THE COURT: Fine. Thank you, Ms. Pennock.
MS. PENNOCK: State has no further questions of this witness.
THE COURT: Be admitted.
MR. PONTON: Defense does not, either.
THE COURT: Do you have other questions, Mr. Ponton?
MR. PONTON: No, we do not.
THE COURT: May this witness be excused?
MR. PONTON: He may, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Thank you. Officer, you may go back to your duties.
Thank you, sir.
THE COURT: Ms. Pennock, who will be your next witness?
MS. PENNOCK: I think that - -
THE COURT: Why don’t you go and ask Mr. Moody if he is ready.
MS. PENNOCK: Thank you.
(An off-the-record discussion was held.)
MR. PONTON: Your Honor, before this witness testifies, the defendants would like to play the videotape of the interview taken in Georgetown on December 20th. We feel it’s important for the
Page 1485
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
purposes of this hearing the manner of the interview be viewed.
THE COURT: Wait a minute, Mr. Ponton. You know, neither of the other attorneys are here. I don’t know what interview you’re talking about. I don’t know. You know, we are going to have to wait until these other attorneys - -
MR. PONTON: Yes, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Ranger Price, just make yourself at home. I guess we are going to be a few minutes.
MR. PRINCE: Okay. Thank you, Judge.
THE COURT: Well, let’s take a break for a few minutes and when Mr. Moody and then come back, we can get ready to start in.
(A recess was taken.)
THE COURT: Are you-all ready?
MS. PENNOCK: I’m sorry. I can’t find Mr. moody and I think we need him here.
THE COURT: Well, do you need a few more minutes?
MR. MODY: No, Your Honor. Rod said he wanted to play the videotape of the December ’83 tape for you. It’s about three and a half hours long.
THE COURT: For me?
Page 1486
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
MR. PONTON: Yes, Your Honor. I don’t think - -
MR. MOODY: He can watch it at his leisure.
THE COURT: Why do I need to see it?
MR. PONTON: It’s the tape with the files with the photographs that are showing him, And they are showing him that, and it’s the only videotape in this case regarding El Paso on the videotape that stuff is happening.
And I just think since so much - - since parts have been testified under the rule of optional completeness that maybe they should have viewed, maybe not all three and a half hours but enough of a portion of it for Your Honor in court so that Your Honor could see the manner in which that interview was taken.
THE COURT: Let me ask this, Mr. Ponton.
MR. PONTON: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: What does that have to do with this gentleman’s testimony?
MR. PONTON: It doesn’t have anything to do with this man’s testimony. I was just thinking that it might - - in the scheme of things, viewing some of that might be better to take place now because it’s sort of the tail end of what we have already had in testimony before Your Honor.
Page 1487
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
THE COURT: Then, what am I going to do with (unreadable) keep him hanging around here just until you-all get ready to start talking to him?
MR. PONTON: Well - -
THE COURT: He is from out of town, just got in here and now I’m going to tell him just go out and have fun while we watch these movies?
See, I can watch that movie some other time. Why can’t I watch that movie sometime Monday?
MR. MOODY: Any time you want to.
MR. PONTON: It’s Your Honor’s - -
THE COURT: You know, the schedule you people set up was Monday mornings we would be off, Friday afternoons we are off. So as a result, I have set other hearings. And everybody knew that.
I don’t think I am going to do that, Mr. Ponton. I think we are going to have to take this gentleman’s testimony, see if we can get through it, then he is going to have to leave here and come back. And that’s a shame, too, but that’s what is going to have to happen.
And then between the time that - - if that happens and the time he comes back, I’ll watch your movie. I don’t know when, but I will get it done sometime.
Page 1488
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
MR. MOODY: All right. I guess they are prepared - -
THE COURT: Well, yes, let’s go on with this. I don’t think we need to see that movie at this time.
Sir, would you raise your right hand?
Have a seat, please.
BOB PRINCE,
Having been first duly sworn by the Court to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, was examined and testified as follows:
BY MR. MOODY:
Q. All right. Would you state your name, please?
A. Bob Prince.
Q. And what is your profession, sir?
A. I’m an officer with the Texas Department of Public Safety presently serving as the captain of the Texas Rangers.
Q. In that regard where are you stationed?
A. Houston.
Q. What company are you with?
A. I’m with Company A of the Texas Rangers.
Page 1489
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. Are you the commanding officer of that company?
A. Yes, sir, I am.
Q. The Texas Rangers are, what, divided into companies?
A. We are divided into six ranger companies throughout the state.
Q. All right. How long have you been a captain of the rangers?
A. I was formally promoted September the 2nd of this year. I was in an acting capacity for - - since July the 1st, but formally promoted September the 2nd.
Q. And before that what rank did you hold and what company were you assigned to?
A. I was sergeant, Texas Rangers Company F, based in Waco.
Q. How long have you been a Texas Ranger?
A. 12 years, 2 months, length of time in the ranger service.
Q. At the time of your promotion to captain in the rangers, were you the senior sergeant in the rangers?
A. Yes, sir, I was.
Q. Prior to your 12 years and 2 months experience with the rangers, were you previously part
Page 1490
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
of the Department of Public Safety or another law enforcement agency?
Yes, I was with the Texas Department of Public Safety serving as a Texas highway patrolman for a period of time, and then two years as an investigator of the motor vehicle theft section.
Q. How long in total years do you have in law enforcement?
A. Approximately 20.
Q. Do you have any college degrees or have you attended the universities?
A. Yes, sir. I have a bachelor of science degree from Texas Christian University in Fort Worth.
Q. Texas Christian?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What years did you attend?
A. I - - In 1960.
Q. In regard to the creation of what has been called the ranger task force regarding Henry Lucas, when did you receive that assignment?
A. Received the assignment in the latter part of November 1983.
Q. At that time you were stationed in Waco, Texas?
A. Yes, I was.
Page 1491
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. Is that where you live?
A. Yes.
Q. With, what, your wife and family?
A. Wife and family, yes.
Q. Did you in any way seek that assignment?
A. No, sir.
Q. How long were you assigned or was the task force in existence?
A. The task force was in existence for approximately 17 months while Lucas was in custody at the Williamson County jail. We continued to work together after that, but I don’t know if it was called a task force after that. But we did continue working together for some - - for a period of time after that.
Q. Did being assigned to this unit cause you to be away from your family for long extended periods of time?
A. Yes, sir, it did. I’d say overall approximately two years, in excess of two years.
Q. Did you in - - I guess I don’t want to go into everything that ever happened in the task force, but just relate to the Judge, you know, how the task
Page 1492
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
force was created and what was its purpose.
All right, sir. We were created at the request of Williamson County Sheriff Jim Boutwell. As you’re probably aware, Henry Lucas was first arrested in Montaque County and received nationwide attention and then transferred to Denton County. And when he finished in Denton County in November of 1983 or thereabouts, he was transferred to Williamson County jail.
There had been a tremendous amount of news media coverage and also coverage in the law enforcement circles that there was a possibility that Henry Lucas was involved in a large number of homicides. Therefore, there was a tremendous amount of interest in officers wanting to interview Lucas, so the sheriff of Williamson County requested from the director of the Department of Public Safety, Colonel Jim Adams, that a task force be set up to handle - - to assist in handling the influx of officers that would be coming in, the tremendous volume of calls that were coming in. He wanted the staff of the task force to coordinate this.
And Colonel Adams approved and I was assigned to head the task force, very much of a minitask force, and our purpose was to serve as
Page 1493
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Coordinator for law enforcement officers to come in and interview Lucas. The first day I arrived there, which was like the Monday after Thanksgiving in November 1983, there was approximately 70 out-of-state telephone calls to return. And so I - - of officers wanting to talk to him, so I set up a calendar. And as - - I tried to return the calls as they had come in.
And whenever officers would want to come talk to him, I set up an orderly process where they could come in for two hours on a certain date, and if they needed two days with him, we would put that on the calendar.
Our role was to serve only as the coordinator for these officers coming in. We were not set up in an investigative capacity but only to serve and coordinate the information from the officers that were coming in.
Q. Okay.
A. That’s kind of it in a nutshell. There were some other things. I don’t know if you would like that, but that was pretty much it in a nutshell.
Q. One of the - - When you were talking about
Page 1494
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Not being the investigative agency, in other words, you-all were not - - were actually going through case by case with Henry Lucas to try to prove whether or not he committed a case in, let’s say, Colorado, North Carolina?
No, sir. We did not have the authority or the responsibility or the duties to investigate cases. You know, outside of Texas we would have no knowledge or certainly interest in the case from out of state.
The majority of the cases in Texas we would have absolutely no knowledge of. It would be up to the investigating agencies totally to come in and make the determination as to whether or not they believed Lucas was involved in a particular homicide. This was not the - - my responsibility not the task force responsibility as we were set up.
Q. Were you even present when Henry Lucas was interviewed? Were you present at all with the interviews with Henry Lucas and other agencies?
A. Some of the interviews. I was present on a very small, small number of them, but it was very rare for me to sit in on an interview.
We had a tremendous amount of telephone traffic coming in. Normally we would have - - or a lot of times we would have three to five telephone
Page 1495
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
lines lit up at one time with officers wanting to obtain information concerning Lucas’ whereabouts on a certain date, if we had it, you know, any other information we had plus wanting to come see him.
So we were extremely busy, extremely busy handling telephone traffic. Normally there were just two of us that were working on this on a full-time basis. After a several-month period, we did get a half-day secretary to come in, but we were just inundated with telephone calls, with mail-in cases, officers coming in to see him or wanting to come in and see him, requests from officers wanting us to take them to different locations to see if he could point out a particular crime scene.
Q. Did you set up logs to indicate when people would actually come to Williamson County to interview Henry Lucas to note who was actually going in and talking to him?
A. Yes, sir. I realize we didn’t get near everyone to sign the log. We tried to request each person that came in and interviewed Lucas to sign a log where we could have a record of who came in and talked with Lucas, how long they were there and also whether or not they - - any remarks they might have
Page 1496
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Concerning their interview. If they did believe Lucas was involved in their particular homicide, we did ask for a synopsis concerning that homicide giving the details of the homicide as well as the MO or modus operandi.
And then we were keeping a tracking chart or flow chart or travel log, whatever you want to call it, where if there was a determination that Lucas was at a particular location on a certain date we could enter that on that particular daily log or travel log where we could keep some type of a background as to where he was at particular times. We did make this information available to any and all peace officers that did have a legitimate need and request for this information.
However, it was their determination completely as to whether or not Lucas was at their location. Even though our log might show that Lucas was at a particular location, it was up to the investigating agency to determine whether or not he was at the alibi location or whether he was at their particular crime scene.
We kept a travel log, one sheet for each month of the year over the past few years, and whenever we would get a confirmed or suspected
Page 1497
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
location for Lucas being at a location, we would enter it in on that particular date. If there was a conflict of a case, like I stated, we would let the investigating agency of the homicide determine whether he was at the homicide location or at the location that was on the travel log.
Q. Was this log, travel log, flow chart updated from time to time?
A. Yes, it was continuously updated. We, in the beginning, tried to - - or did have this printed up. But by the time that it would start being printed, it would be outdated because of the numerous changes that were made on it.
There was updates on it from time to time, and then finally we stopped making the updates other than in our master log, our master book because of the, you know - - whenever one change was made, well, all of the past travel logs that were out would be inaccurate. And so we decided to just go ahead and keep a master log and if an agency had an inquiry concerning a certain period of time, you know, they could - - we could refer to the master log of the latest information that we had.
Q. All right. And did information sometimes
Page 1498
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
change, in other words, from - - at one time a case might be considered cleared and then it comes back as later that that agency tells you, well, now we have second thoughts about the case or something new has developed and now we are not considering it cleared?
Yes, sir.
Q. You would take those off?
A. Yes, sir. Like I say before - - Like I said before, this was the investigating agency’s determination completely as to whether or not he was involved. And if they at any time in the future determined or in their opinion determined that he was not involved, well, we certainly would remove it if we obtained the information.
Q. How did you treat Henry Lucas in the time frame that he was there in Williamson County?
A. I think I treated him well. I think I treated him just like I would want to be treated under the same circumstances.
This is a policy that I have tried to follow throughout my law enforcement career is to treat any suspect or violator just like I would want to be treated should the roles be reversed. And I never had any occasion, any reason to treat him other than very kind.
Page 1499
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. Did he give you trouble?
A. Absolutely none. He gave me no trouble whatsoever.
Q. Was he always cooperative?
A. No, he wasn’t always cooperative. You know, there were days when he didn’t feel like cooperating, but the majority of the time he was cooperative.
Q. Were you in charge of his status in the jail at Williamson County, how he would - - you know, what he would be allowed to wear while in jail, what he would be allowed to eat while in the jail, and how his jail cell would be kept while he was there in the jail?
A. No, sir, not at all. This was - - This total responsibility was the sheriff or the sheriff’s department in Williamson County. He was not my prisoner or the task force prisoner. He was the prisoner of the Williamson County sheriff.
Q. The only times that he would be directly your prisoner would be on trips that you would take where Sheriff Boutwell or his deputies would not be present?
A. Yes, sir, technically this would be correct.
Q. And other than those rare occasions, he was not directly in your custody?
Page 1500
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
He would not be directly in my custody, although I might be the one with him, you know, in my office. You know, certainly I would consider him in my custody then. But we were in the housing area of the Williamson County Sheriff’s Department jail.
Q. Was that an area separate from the jail cell areas?
A. Yes, sir, it was. It was outside of the actual jail.
Q. And it was in that area that the interviews were conducted?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. In regards to the Librada Apodaca case, other than on October 25th, 1984, did you have any direct involvement in that case?
A. No, sir. No, sir, I was not aware of that case at all. Of course, there is a lot of miles between where we were and El Paso, and I was not familiar with the case at all.
Q. Did you have any information about the details of that case?
A. None, no, sir. None whatsoever.
Q. Did your logs, mail-in logs or other logs ever indicate that Henry Lucas was interrogated in Williamson County about the Librada Apodaca case?
Page 1501
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Not that I’m aware of. However, I wouldn’t have the name of - - always have a name of who the officers interviewed Lucas, which case they are interviewing him about.
Q. On the 25th of October, 1984, did you receive a call from Henry Lucas on or about that date?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. And what was the context of that conversation?
A. To the best of my recollection, actually Clayton Smith was on the phone first and said that Henry wanted to talk to me. He wanted my advice as to whether or not he should testify before the El Paso grand jury.
And then Lucas got on the line. And I don’t remember all of the conversation, but when Lucas got on the line, he asked me whether or not that he should - - he should go before the grand jury and testify, so that was solely up to his.
Q. Did he request an attorney?
A. No, sir, he did not, not of me, I can’t speak for anyone else.
Page 1502
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. While you were on the phone, he did not request an attorney?
A. No, sir, he did not.
Q. To advise him on that issue.
A. Correct.
Q. Did he finally tell you whether or not he was going to testify or not before he got off the phone?
A. I don’t believe I can accurately answer that. I don’t recall him telling me that he was or was not. I believe he elected that he was still going to think about it. I think I just talked to him for a very brief time.
Q. On the issue of requesting lawyers, had Henry Lucas ever talked to you about what he thought about lawyers and whether or not he wanted legal assistance during the time that he was present in Williamson County?
A. Well, sir, he had some attorneys all the time that he was in Williamson County. Any comments I heard from him concerning lawyers were very negative, that he had no use for them and he wanted to go ahead and talk. They were advising him not to talk, and he wanted to go ahead and talk with the officers.
Page 1503
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. All right. His attorneys were aware that he was talking to law enforcement officers, were they not?
A. Yes, sir, they saw him very regularly. On numerous occasions they would come in while an interview was in progress and would have the officer stop the interview where the attorneys could converse with him.
Q. And while they would give him the advice, he apparently did not want to take that advice?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. That is, not to talk to law enforcement officers?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. Why was he in Williamson County? Was there a primary case that he was there for?
A. Yes, sir, he had - - Williamson County had filed murder charges on him concerning on unidentified body that had been found and he was transferred to Williamson County to be tried concerning that case.
Q. That was the orange socks case?
A. That’s the one they refer to as the orange socks case.
Q. Did the judge there in Williamson County
Page 1504
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
ever instruct law enforcement officers not to discuss a particular case?
Yes, sir.
Q. With Henry Lucas?
A. Yes, sir, he did.
Q. What was the nature of that?
A. Prior to my arriving there on the task force, I was told that the judge had instructed officers not to talk to Lucas concerning the orange socks case. And to my knowledge, that order was heeded.
Q. And the judge’s orders were only in response to that one case?
A. Yes, sir that was my understanding.
Q. And you did not discuss the orange socks case with him, then?
A. That’s correct. I did not personally. I can’t speak for everyone else, but to my knowledge no one else did.
Q. And that case was, what, transferred on a change of venue?
A. Yes, it was.
Q. To Tom Green?
A. To Tom Green County in San Angelo.
Q. Do you remember approximately when that trail was?
Page 1505
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
It was in early 1984. I may be missing the months a little bit, but something like March and April of 1984.
Q. While that trial was going on, did you-all question him at that time or did you allow him just to - -
A. No, sir, I remained in Georgetown. One of his traveling companions, Ottis Toole, was brought to Georgetown and we continued the task force operation with him allowing officers to come in and interview Ottis Toole.
Whether or not he was - - Lucas was interviewed in San Angelo, I have no knowledge of that.
Q. And approximately how long did that trial last, the one in Georgetown - - Pardon me - - I mean, the one in San Angelo?
A. I would have to just approximate. I’d say approximately four to six weeks, somewhere around there.
Q. And then was Henry Lucas returned to Williamson County after the conclusion of that trial?
A. Yes, sir, he was.
Q. In regards to any statements that Henry Lucas made in response to any interviews you were
Page 1506
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
involved in, did you ever coerce him in any way, threaten him in any way so he would make the statements?
No, sir.
Q. Did you ever promise him anything in exchange for making such statements?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did you ever feed him any information regarding the Librada Apodaca case?
A. No, sir, I did not.
Q. Did you ever have that information even accessible to you?
A. No, sir, I did not.
Q. Did you ever travel to El Paso, Texas, with him for - - when he went to various crime scene areas?
A. No, sir, not in El Paso. Now, we did land in El Paso on our - - on a trip to California to refuel, but he was not interviewed by any El Paso officers concerning any local cases. We landed in El Paso to refuel going to California and returning from California.
Q. When was the first time that you were even
Page 1507
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
aware of the Librada Apodaca case?
I guess it would be probably on his second trip. To the best of my recollection, it was on his second trip to El Paso, and the best of my recollection, it was probably in October of ’84.
Q. Okay. And when it - - The log eventually showed that the Librada Apodaca case was a cleared case out of El Paso?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And how did the information get to the task force that the case was cleared?
A. I don’t know how it got to Clayton Smith for sure. My recollection is, if my recollection is correct, I received it from Clayton Smith after the trip out here.
Q. When did you obtain any really detailed information about the Librada Apodaca case, if ever?
A. The first time that I received any briefing concerning the case - - and it was on a very limited basis then - - was probably from you - - or I’m sure it was from you - - in either May or June of 1985 when you came to Williamson County. Or if I recall correctly, it was you and Joe Avalos and Ranger Buster Collins and Mr. Steve Simmons.
Page 1508
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
MR. MOODY: Pass the witness.
BY MR. PONTON:
Q. Your testimony is that you first heard about Librada Apodaca case when Mr. Moody came to Williamson County?
A. No, sir.
Q. What was it that you just said? I didn’t hear that.
A. Okay. He asked when my first detailed information of the Apodaca case was.
Q. Okay. Do you recall when you - - if you received any information about the 20th of September of ’84 that Henry Lucas was here in El Paso?
A. Okay. If I ‘m getting my trips right - - When was the first time that he came to El Paso? And then I go from there.
Q. To my knowledge, it was February of ’84, February 13th.
A. Okay. I don’t recall. The first that I’m aware of - - was aware of the case, to the best of my recollection, is when he was brought out here the second time. And to the best of my recollection, that was in October of ’84.
Page 1509
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. Well, okay. There were three times. He was here in February and he was right here in September and then he came back in October.
So the second time on the Apodaca case was in October, so do you think that’s when you first learned about the Apodaca case?
I’m sorry. I’d have to look at the logs. I don’t recall but two trips to El Paso. There possibly was three, but I don’t recall but two.
Q. I had spoken with you a week or two ago in regard to requesting you bring some records with you, didn’t I?
A. Yes, sir, you did.
Q. And you brought a boxful of records in response to my request?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. May we see these now?
A. Well, sir, I gave these to Mr. Moody, and this would be at his discretion.
(An off-the-record discussion was held.)
THE COURT: For my information, what kind of records are these?
The books he is looking at, there are several books there. That is, the attorney general came out with a chronology of Lucas’ travels and we
Page 1510
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
received an advance copy before it was made public, and we responded to each issue in there that we felt needed further explanation or that we took exception to and put our documentation to show on our position in there. And this is what it is.
He requested my reports, and althought this in not maybe a report as such, it was in a memo form to the director of the Department of Public Safety. They probably need a little explanation there to - -
THE COURT: The reason I asked the question is because what I’m trying to find out is can you examine the witness without looking at this first?
MR. PONTON: I can. I believe that one of us wanted - - that Ms. Sipes wanted to look at some of these materials while I was examining the witness, and then we might be able to.
THE COURT: All right. You-all conduct it any way you want to. I was just trying to find out.
MR. MOODY: They have had access to the task force, what is it, the task force information. When we went to Williamson County, we got copies of their - - the task force information, brought that back, and then we have given defense attorneys copies of that information. Probably a lot of this
Page 1511
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
may be repetitive and they may already have it.
Q. Quite a bit of it, I think, in the largest book there on the top nearest MS. Sipes is probably repetitive.
This travel log, this is just the latest update we have, you know. As I stated before, this was updated periodically and this is the last entries we have in it.
But probably 80 percent of it would be repetition in that book.
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) Now, the task force put together what they call a synopsis?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Had they not, on each case in which - - each case which has been cleared through the confession of Henry Lucas?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
MR. PONTON: May I approach the witness, Your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes, sir.
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) I’m going on to show you a copy of what I refer to as the old task force synopsis.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You-all had two sets, didn’t you?
Page 1512
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Yes, sir.
Q. An old set and then one was a new set, and the new set substantially embodied most of the old set but you renumbered some of the offenses. Is that correct?
A. Right. The reason for that is we deleted some that had been - - the investigating agency had changed their mind.
Q. Okay. Now, here in my copy is a supplement dated, I guess it would be, 9-26-84 because that’s the last date on the subject report. Would that be correct?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. And would you tell the Court who that is to and who that is from?
A. It’s addressed to A. F. Hacker, who is chief of the Texas Department of Public Safety, Criminal Law Enforcement Division. It was from me.
Q. All right. And here on page 5 of this, you have a task force synopsis regarding the offense numbered 179 from the Henry Lee Lucas task force.
A. Right.
Q. Would you please tell the Court the date and location and victim on that?
A. Okay. The date of the offense?
Page 1513
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. Yes.
A. That would be - - I have it as May the 27th, 1983. Librada Apodaca is the victim. And the location, El Paso.
Q. All right. And the last paragraph here, it says who cleared it. What does that state?
A. Okay. I have listed as Benito Perez of the El Paso Police Department.
Q. As being the officer who cleared the offense. Is that correct?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. So therefore, as of the 26th day of September, 1984, Librada Apodaca was part of the official DPS task force synopsis on cases cleared because of Henry Lucas’ confession. Is that correct?
A. That’s correct.
Q. You testified to - - in response to Mr. Moody’s question on the role of the task force that the role of the task force was only to sort of accommodate or make available Henry Lucas to be interviewed by other agencies. Is that correct?
A. Yes, sir, that was generally correct.
Q. You-all didn’t clear cases yourselves, did you?
A. Normally not. There are exceptions to that,
Page 1514
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
but - - there are some exceptions to that, but that is generally a correct statement.
Q. And for a little background, please tell the Court who were the members for the Lucas task force.
A. Well, it varied from time to time. Myself, Bob Prince, Clayton Smith, Jim Boutwell. We certainly considered him a member. Bob Werner for a period of time, assistant chief, criminal law enforcement. I guess those would be the ones officially. If you had an official task force, they would be the ones officially. IF you had an official task force, they would be the ones that you would consider members.
Q. You’re familiar with the book called The Hand of Death by an author name Max Call, aren’t you?
A. Yes, sir, I am.
Q. Have you read the forward to that book by Jim Boutwell?
A. Yes, sir, I have.
Q. Are you familiar with the statement that Jim Boutwell makes in there that Henry Lucas was an integral member of the Lucas task force?
A. I don’t know that I recall that statement. I have read - - or scanned the book quite some time ago.
Q. Did you not consider Henry Lucas to be the
Page 1515
MERYL WERSINGER, C. S. R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
crucial member of the Lucas task force?
I don’t know that I would consider him a member of the task force. Certainly there would not be a need to have a Lucas task force without Henry Lucas. But if you’re considering did we consider him a peace officer as a member of the task force, no, sir, I did not.
Q. Not that you considered him a peace officer as a member of the task force, but did you and the other members of the task force not consider him to be a member of the task force?
A. I have to stand by my earlier statement here that, you know, he was not - - he would not be a member of the task force; however, we would not have a Lucas task force without Henry Lucas.
Q. The task force was created at the request of Sheriff Boutwell, was it not?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. When did Sheriff Boutwell make that request to the task force - - I mean, to the DPS?
A. I’m sorry. I don’t know the exact date. I do know that he made the request and I was called to meet with Sheriff Boutwell, the assistant senior ranger captain and assistant director of the DPS concerning the formation of the task force. This
Page 1516
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
would have been very shortly - - when I was first aware of it very shortly before Thanksgiving 1983.
Q. Sheriff Boutwell formerly worked for the DPS, did he not?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. What was his role - - What were his jobs when he was with DPS, do you recall?
A. I didn’t know him when he was DPS. I understand he at one time was a ranger. HE was an intelligence agent with DPS. I’m not aware that he held any other positions, but I’m aware - - although I don’t have firsthand knowledge, but I am aware that he held those capacities.
Q. And he was a former Texas Ranger?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. Buster Collins testified earlier today that there were approximately 80 field rangers and 14 administrative rangers. Is that approximately correct?
A. Yes, sir, be 14 supervisors and 80 field rangers.
Q. And would that have been the numbers back in ’83 and ’84?
A. Yes, sir. That’s been a constant number since 1974.
Page 1517
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. Okay. And when did you first join the Texas Rangers Service, sir?
A. September the 1st, 1974.
Q. And you received a promotion just at the beginning of this month?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. Which - - Was that promotion in large part because of your involvement in the Henry Lucas task force?
A. I can’t answer that. I was the sergeant that had the most time in the state. There are six ranger sergeants in the state. I had the most time on as a sergeant, which doesn’t always make you the next captain. But the supervisors that promoted me to captain would have to answer why I was promoted to captain.
Q. Did Texas Rangers interview Henry Lucas or did they let other agencies come in to interview Henry Lucas?
A. There were several Texas Rangers that interviewed Lucas by themselves. Several Texas Rangers were with other peace officers when they came to interview Lucas. It would just depend upon the circumstances. You know, there are some rangers based all over the state, and it would be dependent
Page 1518
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
upon the particular circumstances there.
Q. Do you have any idea how many Texas Rangers actually interviewed Henry Lucas?
A. I would have to guess and I wouldn’t think that guess would be anywhere near accurate.
Q. Would you try? Since you were the author of much of the DPS synopsis that Lucas - -
A. I would think probably - - I can try. I know it’s not anywhere near an accurate number, but I would say actual interviews, probably 40 rangers that had some part in an interview.
There is quite a number of rangers listed because they assisted in the transportation and our security and maybe not always played a part in an interview. I would have to go back and try to pick out that particular number.
MR. PONOTN: May I approach the witness, Your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes, sir.
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) I have here, sir, is a compilation based upon all of the entries in the DPS task force and the interview logs.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And these are based in the actual entries of the logs on the officers interviewing Lucas.
Page 1519
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Uh-huh.
Q. And I came up with that list there, which if you could please read those two pages there. I came up with 58 Texas Rangers who interviewed Henry Lucas during the period that the Lucas task force was in operation.
Would you please take a moment to review my list and see if you have any disagreement with my compilation of the Texas Rangers who interviewed Henry Lucas?
Okay.
Q. I’ll be glad to provide any other documents that we have here if you want to do any comparison.
A. I wouldn’t say your numbers would be accurate. There are some you have listed that are not Texas Rangers, some that I have not - - I don’t have any idea who they are.
Q. Okay. Such as?
A. Well, Bud Denton, for one. You know, I’d have to look at the log to see what agency he was with. But - -
Q. Okay. He is listed April 4th, 1985.
A. - - that would be inaccurate information you would have.
Q. Even without any compilation, it would be
Page 1520
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
your testimony that at least 50 percent of the active field rangers interviewed henry Lucas?
Well, I believe that’s what I stated earlier, approximately 40, which would be about 50 percent of the 80 field rangers.
Q. And the percentage of - - Do you know how many cases were cleared based upon the interviews the Texas Rangers engaged in with henry Lucas?
A. Where the ranger was the actual clearing officer with the authority - - or with the sole responsibility of clearing the case, I would say in the ball park of 10 to 15.
Q. 10 to 15?
A. Yes, sir, where they were the actual officer that made the determination. Nearly all of the determinations were made in agreement with the local officer that was working with the ranger.
Q. How many offenses were initially cleared as having been committed by henry Lucas based upon the involvement of the Texas Ranger task force?
A. Without doing some search on some of my papers, I’m sorry, I couldn’t tell you.
Q. Can you give me an approximate number?
A. I don’t believe I could give you anywhere near an accurate number.
Page 1521
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. Would it be around 200 or 225?
A. No, sir.
Q. Would it be greater or lesser than that figure?
A. It would be lesser.
Q. But approximately ten cases were cleared by Texas Rangers based upon their interviews with henry Lucas?
A. I’m not even sure the number would be quite that high where the ranger would have the sole responsibility of clearing the case.
Q. Or the joint responsibility of clearing the case?
A. Joint responsibility, probably a little more than that.
Q. Approximately how many would that be?
A. I’d rather look at my records and determine an accurate number, but - -
Q. Do you have those records here in the materials that you brought with you?
A. No, sir, I do not.
Q. Where would those records be that would reflect the number of cases cleared by Texas Rangers who had either sole or joint authority to clear the cases based on Henry Lucas’ confessions?
Page 1522
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
I guess that would be in my reports back in Houston, if Mr. Moody doesn’t have them in his file. And in order to get an exact number - -
Q. Well, let’s - - I have been provided some materials from Mr. Moody such as this task force synopsis that I showed you earlier.
A. Okay.
Q. I’d like to go through a few offenses - -
A. All right, sir.
Q. - - based on that, and I’ll let you look at the task force logs. What I’ll do is I’ll refer you to certain task force numbers.
A. All right, sir.
Q. I’ll ask you to read to the Court who cleared those cases based upon what is written in the documents which were prepared there.
A. Okay.
Q. Also, would you tell the Court who, if you did not prepare much of that document yourself? A. No, I prepared the document myself. Possibly before we go further we should clarify what the terminology is of the cleared and what the terminology - - or what it would mean to have someone listed as the clearing officer.
Q. Well, the - - isn’t it true, Captain, that
Page 1523
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
when Henry Lucas was listed in the synopsis as having committed a crime and that crime was listed as being cleared, that essentially was the ranger terminology for the case being solved? Not necessarily that Henry Lucas was formally indicted or convicted for the crime, but that was the assessment based upon the task force synopsis that the case was solved as having been committed by henry Lucas. Would that be a fair statement?
No, I don’t believe that would be a fair statement. What it would mean is that someone from the investigating agency would believe Lucas was involved in the homicide. That certainly didn’t close the homicide or make a final determination that Lucas was involved. It just means that there was someone from the investigating agency that believed he was involved. And there certainly are different levels of determination of whether or not he was involved.
Q. Well, regardless of the level of involvement, the terminology used by the Texas Rangers task force was, quote, cleared, unquote. Is that correct?
A. Yes, sir, you’re correct.
Q. And when that terminology was used by the Texas Ranger task force, that was an indication that
Page 1524
the task force was satisfied that Henry Lucas had committed that crime. Is that not correct?
Absolutely not. The task force did not make the determination whether or not Lucas was involved in a homicide.
Q. Well, if it was listed as cleared, it would - - would there then be a determination that as far as the clearing officer was concerned, Henry Lucas had committed that homicide?
A. To the best of our information, we had received that from a responsible person that was involved with the investigation of the homicide. That did not in any way indicate that we were at the task force determining whether or not Lucas was involved. We were listing the information that we received.
Q. Okay.
A. And not making a determination as to the accuracy.
Q. So - - I guess it appears to me that you were, in essence, then, wearing two hats. Because if the task force was not clearing cases, as you suggest, yet certain individual members of the task force were clearing cases. Is that correct?
A. Well, we are getting off on something a
Page 1525
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Little different now. I believe I’m listed maybe as a couple times as a clearing officer on a case. These would be on nonhomicide cases where a victim would contact me after an encounter, a suspected encounter with Lucas. There is one time in Bastrop County, I believe, where I was along and listed myself and sheriff Mosely, if I remember correctly.
But as far as the task force making the determination of a homicide where we were not the investigator, we did not. Clayton Smith made the determination on one that was within his assigned area of responsibility and his normal rank of duties, but asides from that, I don’t believe that we - - the task force was involved in calling the shots as to whether or not Lucas was involved in a homicide.
Q. Well, let’s let the document speak for itself for a little - - for a few minutes here.
A. All right, sir.
Q. Let me ask you to turn to the old task force synopsis, number 18, and please read to the court the name of the victim and then the last paragraph who cleared the case?
A. Okay. That’s - - The name of the victim - - Did you ask for the name of the victim?
Q. Yes. As we do this, if you would tell me
Page 1526
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
who - -
Armando Alvarez. Did you ask for the date?
Q. Well, yeah, go ahead and give the date, and then we’ll just - -
A. Armando Alvarez was the victim. Date of homicide we have listed as 7-9-82. Have the clearing officer as being Casey King, a Texas Ranger in Kingsville.
Q. Please turn to task force number 20 and give the same information.
A. Okay. This would be an unidentified - - Excuse me - - an unidentified white female. Body was found on 6-21-79. And we have the clearing officer as being Ranger Clayton Smith. This would be the one we referred to earlier as being in his normal area of investigative responsibility.
Q. Okay. Please turn to task force number 58.
A. Okay. This is Yolanda Garcia on 4-18-79. We do have the clearing or list as clearing officers Ranger Clayton Smith and Joaquin Jackson. I might ass Joaquin Jackson is the actual clearing officer. However, Clayton Smith was involved in taking some of the initial interview on this case.
Q. Joaquin Jackson is a Texas Ranger in Uvalde,
Page 1527
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Texas, is he not?
Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. Sir, please turn to task force 38.
A. Okay.
Q. Okay, this was in November of ’79. This is going to be an unidentified white male.
Q. Okay.
A. And the information was received from - - Clayton smith has confirmed the offense. And this is who we received the information from. The clearing officer would be the sheriff or Kimble County, however.
Q. How is that written in the Lucans task force synopsis?
A. Okay. As I stated, it was Clayton Smith.
Q. The exact language is?
A. “Offense confirmed by Texas Ranger Clayton Smith.”
Q. Thank you. And please turn to 35, task force number 35.
A. Okay. This is going to be nonhomicide on - - occurred on 10-4-78. Deborah Shepard would be the victim, and I’m the one that interviewed this particular victim and I have listed as offense confirmed by Sergeant Bob Prince.
Page 1528
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
THE COURT: You know, Mr. Ponton - - Let me interrupt you a second. What does this have to do with the confession of Henry Lee Lucas?
MR. PONTON: Your Honor, it has to do with determining the veracity and credibility of the man who was in charge of the Texas Ranger task force.
Your Honor, this has to do with determining the manner in which Henry Lucas was interrogated while he wsa under the control of the Texas Rangers.
This has to do, Your Honor, with determining the fact that the Texas Rangers who had custody of Henry Lucas when he came to El Paso to confess to killing Librada Apodaca. This has to do with determining the fact that the same Texas Rangers took confessions from henry Lucas, took many, many confessions form Henry Lucas, and the majority of all those cases are no longer confirmed as having been committed by him. The majority of those cases are no longer attributed to him.
It has to do with determining the background and framework of the Lucas task force which the defense would contend was not set up to really dig down into the veracity of confessions or the facts behind confessions such as the facts behind the
Page 1529
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
MR. PONTON: Yes, Your Honor.
THE COURT: I’m not here to find out about the credibility of the Texas Rangers. That’s not my job. I’m not going to do that.
I’m here for one purpose. Is the confession that Henry Lucas made in El Paso or is the confession that we are going to use at his trial, if this case goes to trial, is that confession going to be used or are we going to suppress that confession.
MR. PONTON: Yes, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Now, I don’t think - - These rangers didn’t take that confession, to my knowledge. Nothing I heard in the last couple of weeks has said that the ranger took a confession from henry Lucas about this case. I would like to get to, if we possibly can, the confession and the suppression of the Henry Lee Lucas suppression - - or confession in El Paso.
MR. PONTON: Yes, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Now, you know, I’m - - if you have anything that will discredit the rangers or anyone else, this is not the time to bring it up. You might bring that up if it has something to do with this lawsuit. But today we are talking about a confession and whether it should be suppressed, and
Page 1531
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
this gentleman hasn’t taken that confession.
MR. PONTON: He has not, Your Honor. However, he was the man who was in charge or Henry Lucas in September 18th, ’84, when henry Lucas was in ward county giving an initial confession to jerry Smith. He was the man - -
THE COURT: Well, that doesn’t make him responsible for it because he was there. He wasn’t - - He has testified he didn’t hear the man make the confession.
You know, all I’m saying is, let’s please try to get to the matter before the Court.
MR. PONTON: Yes, Your Honor.
THE COURT: And that’s the suppression of the Henry Lee Lucas confession in which he says he killed this Apodaca woman. Let’s get to that.
Let’s don’t try to discredit everybody in the state. Let’s talk about what we are doing. If there is any discrediting to do, it will possibly come out, but let’s get to this case.
If you-all want to get to those other cases, that’s all right with me, but you’re going to have to do it somewhere else. You know, I don’t have time for it. I want to get to this lawsuit.
MR. PONTON: Yes, Your Honor.
Page 1532
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
THE COURT: so let’s talk to this gentleman about the suppression of this case, or this confession, if you don’t mind.
And I’m not getting on you, Mr. Ponton. I’m - -
MR. PONTON: I understand, Your Honor.
THE COURT: I have just done two weeks of this and I would just like to get to the point.
MR. PONTON: Could I have a few moments to - -
THE COURT: Yes. Let’s take a short recess. Take all the time you need to get your thoughts together about getting some evidence about suppressing this confession.
(A recess was taken.)
THE COURT: All right. Please be seated.
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) Captain, I want to show you the task force interview log. You’re, familiar with that, are you not?
A. Yes, sir, I am.
Q. As a matter of fact, you told me earlier today that the original of that document is still in your possession. Is that correct?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. And the date we have there is September 20th, 1984, one of the dates we have there. Is that
Page 1533
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
correct?
Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. And on September 20th, 1984 - - Well, let’s back up. Let’s start with the 18th and move forward.
Here on the 18th we have that - - the date is marked off, is punched out here, but do you know if this entry for George Frazier, who signed the register, would be for the 18th or 17th? DO you have any knowledge of that?
I would think it would be probably the 18th, because this would be on a trip and I see he was interviewed in Georgetown on the 17th. So I’m sure it would be on the trip during the 18th.
Q. So on the 18th it shows that George Frazier, a ranger in San Angelo, and a sheriff from Sutton County interviewed Henry Lucas?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And then Henry Lucas went to Midland on that day and to Colorado City. Is that correct?
A. I don’t know that he went to those locations. That’s where those officers were from that interviewed him.
Q. Well, here on the remarks it says, “Taken to Colorado City.”
A. I wasn’t on that trip. I’m sorry.
Page 1534
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. You made many trips, did you not, with henry Lucas to crime scenes?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. Then on the 18th, Henry Lucas ends up being spoken to by Jerry Smith?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, you say you were not present on that trip. Did Jerry Smith and those officers that are referred to in that report ever speak with you prior to being given permission to interview henry Lucas?
A. Not Jerry Smith - - Well, I have talked with jerry Smith before but not concerning this trip. I had met Jerry Smith when he interviewed Ottis Toole once before several months earlier.
Q. Was that an interview taken with Ottis Toole at Georgetown at Williamson County jail?
A. No, sir, that was in Big Spring.
Q. Was Ottis Toole in big Spring under the Texas Ranger custody?
A. Yes, sir, he was.
Q. Now, did any of those persons listed there on the DPS interview log on September 18th, 1984, speak with you to be given permission to interview henry Lucas, do you recall?
Page 1535
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
No, sir, I don’t recall. I don’t recall how this trip was set up.
Q. Well, for the benefit of the Court, let’s - -
A. I’m sorry. I don’t recall that.
Q. Let me ask you what would happen of an officer from a jurisdiction in Texas wanted to interview Henry Lucas and Henry Lucas was in Georgetown. Would that officer have to talk with you or Clayton smith to be able to confirm an interview time with Henry Lucas?
A. Either one of us. However, normally it was through me. But either one of us could do it. Normally, the way we would do it when we would go on trip such as this, there would be a request from - - or maybe through a ranger, just for example, George Frazier in San Angelo, and we would contact maybe his sergeant and state that, okay, we will have two days there that, you know, he can be in your part of the state and if you have any other officers that need to talk to him while he is there. This would be the normal procedure.
Q. And was it not one of your main responsibilities in the Lucas task force to be able to make those arrangements for Henry Lucas to be interviewed by other officers?
Page 1536
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Yes, sir, it was.
Q. And for the most part, those interviews had to be confirmed through you rather than through Clayton Smith or anyone else. Is that correct?
A. Not necessarily. It would be whoever would put it on the log. You know, if for some reason I might be out and if someone called in a request, we had a calendar hanging on the wall and we would write in the dates and the times they would come in. And, you know, this could be done by Clayton Smith or myself.
Q. Now, for the benefit of the Court, please tell me what you-all would do to do any kind of preliminary checkuo on these offenses prior to that officer taking the time and money to go to Georgetown, for instance, to interview Henry Lucas.
Would you-all try to engage in some kind of correspondence or conversation or interview with those officers to find out if they were even close?
Normally - - Or a lot of the time, they would give us a date of their homicide and we would check in that book there, the travel log to see if there was a conflict, documented conflict. If there was a conflict, say, where he was in jail at the time or selling blood at the time in another area of the
Page 1537
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
state, we would give them that other information.
Q. Now, what about if your information showed that Henry Lucas was in a certain location but, say, wasn’t in jail or something? What would you do in that situation?
A. We would let the investigating officer make the determination if he was in the location listed on the log of if he was at the crime scene location.
Q. And the DPS log on henry Lucas’ whereabouts was compiled by you, was it not?
A. In the later stages. There was already quite a bit of information compiled when I first got or first entered into the task force. Phil Ryan and other officers had submitted quite a bit of information and the travel log was already started. After, say, November of ’83 when I arrived, well, you’re correct, I did enter it on there.
Q. And that travel log, are you familiar enough with it to be able to state that it would have an entry on June 4th, 1983, that would have said Henry left Stoneburg, Texas, on that date?
A. I would have to look at the travel log to state that.
Q. Are you familiar enough with the travel log to remember from your own personal memory that Henry
Page 1538
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Lucas was in Stoneburg, Montaque County, during the month of May 1983?
Not without looking at the log, no sir.
Q. When an officer would call to Georgetown to interview Henry Lucas, did you-all refer to that log to try to determine whether or not that officer should take the time to interview henry Lucas? A. Normally we would, yes, sir.
Q. Okay. I refer you, sir, to the last page of the DPS time log. Can you identify that document?
A. Yes, sir. This is one of the very early documents that was - - we did consider it a travel log. As I stated, though, it’s outdated almost by the time it’s printed, because we would update it daily.
Q. Okay. Do you have a final version of that time log?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Is that the final version?
A. No, sir.
Q. Do you know where a copy of the final version is?
A. Laying right in front of your desk there.
Q. Okay.
A. It’s the top document.
Q. Oh, okay. This one right here?
Page 1539
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
No, sir, the top document.
Q. All right. Let’s refer to your up-to-date version here. And would this be the document that you would refer to if an officer called in to interview Henry Lucas to speak with him regarding an offense?
A. Yes, sir, it was.
Q. Okay. Now, doesn’t that document reflect that Henry Lucas took a driver’s license test in Bowie, Texas, on May 20th, 1983?
A. Yes, sir, it does.
Q. And then on May 23rd, 1983, he obtained registration papers on a 1973 Pontiac in Stoneburg, Texas?
A. Yes, sir, it does.
Q. All right. And then on the 26th it says - - it confirms the murder of Ruth Manguno in Louisiana? A. Yes, sir, it does.
Q. The 27th, confirms the murder of Librada Apodaca in El Paso?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. The June 3rd, it says that Henry Lucas was a suspect in the murder of two unidentified white females in El Paso?
A. Yes, sir.
Page 1540
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. And on June 4th it says he left Stoneburg, Texas?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, when you have a time log that has those kinds of inconsistencies in them, would you discuss those inconsistencies with an investigating officer who would call in seeking to interview Henry Lucas?
A. Probably wouldn’t list it as a suspect. Listing Lucas as a suspect would only mean that he was considered for an interview one time and was possibly entered into the book prior to the formation of the task force, that they went to talk to Lucas, maybe, about two white females in El Paso.
Q. Right, but I don’t believe that would answer my question, Captain.
A. I’m sorry.
Q. My question is what you and I have just read for the Court from your time log shows that Henry Lucas on the 20th and the 23rd was in Stoneburg and that he left there on the 4th, but it also says on the 26th he was in Louisiana and the 27th and the 3rd he was in El Paso.
Now, do you think it would be physically possible for any person to be physically present in all those places on those dates?
Page 1541
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Well, sir, let me answer it the best way I can, and I’m going to have to restate my earlier answer. It would be up to the investigating agency to determine whether or not he was at the location on here or whether or not he was at the homicide location.
Now, if you’re asking if he could physically be in El Paso on the 27th of May and then in Stoneburg on June the 4th, yes, sir, that would be no problem at all.
Q. But my point that - - the question that you’re not responding to, captain Prince, is when an officer would want to interview Henry Lucas regarding an offense that allegedly occurred on May 27th - -
A. Okay.
Q. - - would you tell that officer when he called that Henry Lucas had all those inconsistent dates around that time so that officer could decide whether or not to spend his city or county’s tax dollars to come interview Henry Lucas?
A. If I saw what I thought to be a conflict, yes, certainly I would. And when they come, every bit of the information we had would be made available to them.
The copy of the travel log that you just
Page 1542
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
handed me would be made - - our latest copy would be made available to them. If there was any conflict on our updated version, you know, certainly we would make that available to them.
Q. Do you recall making that information available to the El Paso Police Department officers who requested to interview Henry Lucas on September 19th, 1984, prior to them interviewing Henry Lucas in Sierra Blanca, Texas?
A. No, sir, because I was not aware they were going to want to interview Lucas about that particular homicide, to the best of my recollection.
Q. Did not Clayton Smith or any other ranger contact you from Monahans or Ward County on the 18th to see if it were all right for two El Paso officers to interview Henry Lucas on the 19th?
A. Yes, sir, I believe they did.
Q. Do you recall - -
A. I don’t know - - Excuse me. Let me clarify that. I think the - - when he called, he asked if they could go ahead and take him on to El Paso. I don’t believe the question was whether or not they could interview him in Monahans or wherever they were.
Q. Right. They asked you if henry Lucas could be taken to El Paso for an interview by El Paso
Page 1543
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
officers. Is that correct?
To the best of my recollection, that’s correct.
Q. Do you know who made that request to you?
A. I believe that was Clayton Smith.
Q. And did you tell Clayton Smith that was all right?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. Do you recall if Clayton Smith had that same time log with him on September 18th, ’84, that you had?
A. I doubt if he would have had the updated one. We kept three master files. We kept one in our office in Georgetown, and normally it didn’t travel, for obvious reasons, due to wear and tear.
The other one we had was at our crime analysis headquarters in Austin. And at the senior ranger captain’s office in Austin. Any time we had any type of update on the book I would call both those locations and have them make changes in their book.
Q. Do you recall telling Clayton Smith or do
Page 1544
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
you recall telling any of the El Paso officers that Henry Lucas had been confirmed as killing someone in St. Tammany Parish, Louisiana, the day before this woman was allegedly killed in el Paso prior to that interview on September 19th?
Okay. Restating me earlier answer, I was not aware of the date of the homicide they were going to talk to him about in El Paso. So in answer to your question, no, I did not tell him that there was a confirmed homicide in Louisiana.
Q. Did you earlier testify that you-all did no - - that you-all were not involved in any investigation of Lucas or his murders? Is that correct?
A. As a general rule, that is correct. We were not set up to be an investigative body, and the task force was not set up to be an investigative body. We were set up to be the coordinating unit for officers to come in and talk with Lucas and to coordinate the information as well as interviews.
Q. Did the task force do any investigation that you can think of?
A. I’d say on a very limited basis we did. You know, we certainly didn’t take away our authority to be investigators, such as when Lucas directed officers to - - in the Bastrop County. This is one of
Page 1545
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
the counties that Clayton Smith worked during his normal course of duties. And certainly he would be the chief investigator - - he and the sheriff would be the chief investigators on that particular case.
Q. Did the task force go out to try to investigate and make judgments on the validity of confessions or the validity of where Henry Lucas was and things of that nature or was that left up to the local agencies involved?
A. That was left up to the local agencies for their determination of whether or not Lucas was involved.
Q. Is it your testimony you have no idea whether or not Clayton Smith or any other ranger had that information on September 19th, 1984, that Henry Lucas had been confirmed as killing someone in Louisiana the day before Librada Apodaca was killed? Do you know whether - -
A. Let me try to answer that. Clayton Smith certainly would have the information available. Whether or not he had it with him, whether or not he passed it on, I’m sorry, I can’t answer that question. But we would have had that information in our master file.
Q. Did the task force members, you or Clayton
Page 1546
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Smith or Jim Boutwell, ever discuss cases that local officers were bringing to Henry Lucas prior to those officers interviewing Henry Lucas?
In a limited manner, yes. If you were an officer from anyplace and you wanted to mail a case in to determine whether or not there is any reason to come and interview Lucas, certainly this case would be discussed with Lucas ahead of time. Normally it would be tape recorded and then the tape recording would be sent back to the investigating agency for their determination whether or not they wanted to come and further interview Lucas or not.
But as far as us finding out about a case and the three of us discuss it, I don’t know that I could give it as an example where we did that. Of course, we talked to homicide quite a bit, because this is all we were hearing. During - - In our process there, probably several thousands of homicides, you know, were discussed down there in the task force area.
Q. So what you’re describing for the Court is the situation where an investigating agency would mail in an offense synopsis to the task force and request the task force to interview Henry Lucas to see if he had knowledge of that case. Is that
Page 1547
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
correct?
That’s correct.
Q. You would tape record those interviews with Henry Lucas?
A. That’s correct.
Q. And you would send those tape-recorded interviews back to the investigating officer?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. Would the task force keep copies of those tape-recorded interviews?
A. Would not.
Q. Do you know if the task force received any synopsis from El Paso agencies?
A. I don’t know.
Q. Any El Paso agencies, whether it be sheriff or police?
A. I’m not aware of us receiving any, and I don’t believe our records indicate that we received any. I’m not aware of any coming in.
Q. Were you present on the September 20th trip when Henry Lucas went to Brownfield in the morning and came to El Paso in the afternoon?
A. No, sir, I was not.
Q. Were you present on the October 23rd through 26th trip to El Paso?
Page 1548
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
No, sir, I was not.
Q. You’re familiar with both those trips, are you not?
A. Yes, sir, I am. One of them, I believe, I had forgotten about until you brought up the dates there, because I thought they made just two trips. But I assume now they did make three trips to El Paso. But I didn’t make any of the three.
Q. To mention homicides that the task force was investigating, were there not other investigative agencies that were looking at Henry Lucas for other crimes besides homicides?
A. Yes, sir. I’m aware of - - I’m aware of one agency that talked to him about some armed robberies.
Q. Do you remember the FBI coming to Georgetown and interviewing Henry Lucas about a bunch of bank robberies?
A. I recall them coming. I don’t recall what they interviewed him about.
Q. Do you recall whether Henry Lucas was ever charged in any bank robbery ar armed robbery?
A. Yes, sir, I am.
Q. Has he been?
A. Yes, sir, he has.
Q. What is that, do you know?
Page 1549
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
In Chambers County, Texas, a bank robbery and murder. He was indicted.
Q. Okay. And is that for robbing a bank in Chambers County?
A. The murder occurred during the bank robbery. I think the indictment was for capital murder.
Q. I want to refer you to the entry for February 27th, of ’84 where special agents Martin Fox and Larry Cornet of the FBI in Houston interviewed Henry Lucas reference numerous kidnappings and two bank robberies. Would one of those bank robberies have been the one in Chambers County?
A. Yes, sir. Yes, sir, I believe that’s correct.
Q. Okay. Now, before these officers would come and actually physically interview Henry Lucas at the jail in Georgetown, would you or anyone from the task force sit down and talk to the officers about their cases?
A. Yes, sir, we would.
Q. This would be before they would talk to Henry Lucas?
A. Excuse me. I answered before I heard the question very good. Not necessarily about the cases. We would sit down and talk concerning the procedures
Page 1550
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
that should be used. But as far as discussing the cases, sometimes we would and sometimes we wouldn’t.
Q. What were the procedures that should be used? Are you referring to procedures on how to interview Henry Lucas?
A. Yes, yes. I would advise them that they should talk to Lucas just in a conversation tone. It wouldn’t necessarily need to be an interrogation. Treat him as an equal, just sitting down and talking with him, and this was very successful.
I would tell them that you believe what you can confirm what he says. HE will tell you lots of information that would not be valid. He would tell you possibly some information that would be valid, but you believe him only if you can confirm it.
This would be the message I would try to relay to everyone.
Q. What about whether or not Henry Lucas was unfamiliar with the crime? Would you suggest to the officers that they share certain details about the crime with Henry Lucas to see if that would familiarize himself with that particular crime?
A. No. I don’t believe I ever - - if he had no knowledge of it. Another thing that I would tell them is that Lucas was very good at drawing diagrams
Page 1551
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
or maps on how to get to a location or drawing a diagram of a particular crime scene and also possibly picking out a victim’s picture out of a photo lineup.
Q. Would you ever suggest that these officers interviewing Henry Lucas show a victim’s picture to henry by itself to see if that might familiarize himself with a certain crime?
A. A live photo, yes.
Q. A live photo?
A. Right.
Q. Would you ever suggest to them that they might want to explain certain details of the crime to Henry or maybe show a photograph of the crime scene to see if that could familiarize him with that particular - -
A. No, this would be left up to their own discretion as to, you know, as to how much they gave him, whatever they felt like was necessary. This would be left up to the individual officers. And, you know, the suggestion I gave them was suggestions only. I was certainly not their supervisor. It’s their determination how to interview Lucas.
Q. Would you share with them the fact that the task force had been perhaps more successful with Henry in the past if certain of these details were
Page 1552
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
shared with him prior to beginning an interview?
No.
Q. Is that not the case?
A. Maybe I’m not following your question right, but if you’re trying to - - if possibly I’m reading this to - - if you’re stating that I’m suggesting to them they should give Lucas the information on a homicide where can feed it back, is this - -
Q. Yes. Let me ask you that. Did you ever suggest that they give henry Lucas information on a crime so he could feed it back to them?
A. Absolutely not.
Q. Did you suggest that they give Henry Lucas information about a crime such as showing him a photograph of the victim, describing a certain area where the crime may have occurred?
A. I would have to answer that just like I did awhile ago. I did not suggest to them that they give him information concerning a crime.
Certainly there are times you might have to give him information where it occurred such as a city or state, a race and sex, you know, this type of information. You certainly have to have some starting point.
Page 1553
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
THE tapes that they had of their interviews would certainly determine how much they gave him. Each case and each officer had to stand on his own merits. This is not - - As the coordinator of the task force, we were not making the call as to whether or not Lucas was involved in a homicide or as to how much information Lucas should be given.
Q. Would that same procedure be followed by other task force members in advising potential investigating officers on how to interview Henry Lucas?
A. Yes, sir, I believe it would.
Q. Would you also tell the investigating officers that there were certain things that Henry didn’t like?
A. Yes.
Q. Would you tell them that he wouldn’t like being challenged in an interview?
A. He wouldn’t like being called a liar?
Q. Yes.
A. I would tell most of the officers this.
Q. Would you tell them that Henry liked to be allowed to have his coffee and his cigarettes?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And, in fact, he was allowed to have coffee
Page 1554
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
and cigarettes, as much as he wanted?
Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. Would you ever suggest to these officers that it would be a nice gesture if they would bring Henry a carton of cigarettes to give to him at the conclusion of their interviews?
A. I don’t know about the conclusion, but I did suggest that they bring them and I would always explain that we have no provisions to buy Lucas cigarettes. They have to come out of my pocket if they don’t bring cigarettes. And so different officers would bring cigarettes when they came in.
Q. Henry sometimes would end up with as many as 30 or 40 cartons of cigarettes in his jail cell in Williamson County as a result of these investigating officers bringing him these cartons. Is that a fair statement?
A. I think that would be a completely erroneous statement.
Q. There were never times when you would see that many cartons of cigarettes in his jail cell in Williamson County?
A. I have never seen, that I can recall, over two cartons that I can recall.
Q. How many Henry Lucas conferences have you
Page 1555
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
been to?
I would say roughly five, approximately five.
Q. Where would those be located/
A. I have been to one in Nevada, one in Wisconsin - - Well, let me clarify that. Not Henry Lucas conferences, where Henry Lucas was discussed. Wisconsin, Oklahoma. I believe I have been to two in Texas - - three in Texas.
Q. Where were those located?
A. One in - - Two in Austin, one in Huntsville. Let’s see. There would have been one in Arkansas. I don’t believe I left any out.
Q. You brought, in response to my request, documents regarding the Monroe, Louisiana, conference. Is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Is that the first conference or the second conference in Monroe, Louisiana? A. That was probably the second conference. I didn’t go to either one of them, but I think that was the second conference. If I’m not mistaken, the first conference was probably in September or October - - Well, I’m not going to try to suggest when the first one was, but it was - - but I believe the one you have in your hand is the second conference.
Page 1556
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. And do you have any documents on those other conferences that you just mentioned to me?
A. Only what I brought you. You asked me to bring you some brochures showing me to be the speaker. I brought those, the ones that I had. There have been other conferences that I haven’t attended.
Q. Which ones are those?
A. There was one in Arizona, I believe, and one in Tennessee - - two in Tennessee. I have been to a conference in Tennessee that was a very small group of people. I have been to one up in Tennessee, and they had two there, I believe.
Q. Did you or any members of the task force ever go to Florida to investigate Henry Lucas or Ottis Toole?
A. I did not, but yes, there have been some go.
Q. Who was that?
A. Originally Clayton Smith - - Rangers or - -
Q. Rangers.
A. Okay, rangers. Clayton Smith went twice, I believe.
Q. And that was to investigate Henry Lucas’ whereabouts during a certain period of time. Is that correct?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Page 1557
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. And why was this investigating officer from Texas doing an investigation at Texas state expense in Florida and doing an investigation personally rather than relying upon an investigation by the local agency?
A. Okay. The first time he went, it was in response to an alibi that Lucas had concerning his orange socks case. It is where he was allegedly working on the same day or near the same day that the homicide occurred in Williamson County, Texas.
Q. And was that the trip where he determined that there were forgeries made on those work records of Henry Lee Lucas?
A. Yes, sir, I believe that was the first trip. That’s when the determination was made.
Q. Do you know what basis he made for making the determination himself that the Florida work records were forged?
A. I’d have to kind of summarize. There is quite a bit of information there. I don’t know that it’s a very simple answer whether to say that he determined this.
I know that Lucas told them that the foreman of a roofing job there was showing him to be present at work when, in fact, he was not at work, and then
Page 1558
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Would pay the foreman of the job part of his salary when he would get it.
Ranger Smith and another officer went to Florida to interview some other employees of that roofing company and the foreman and did determine from the interviews that the foreman was indeed forging these documents and also did learn that the foreman who was forging the documents had previously served time in the penitentiary for forgery. This was explored at great length in the trial of the orange socks case which was tried in Tom Green County.
Q. Was that foreman ever charged with forgery on the basis of Clayton Smith’s investigation of these records?
A. No, sir, he was not, to my knowledge. I believe he took a polygraph, that forged the - -
Q. Did he pass the polygraph?
A. That’s controversial. The one set of examiners said he passed it. Several other examiners said he did not pass it.
Q. That’s - - Henry Lucas has taken polygraphs several times before, too, hasn’t he?
MR. MOODY: Your Honor, I’m going to object to polygraph evidence in this case.
THE COURT: Let’s try to get to this
Page 1559
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
confession, if we can.
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) At the time that Henry is being interviewed out in the field by investigating officers, Captain Prince, would he be - - would you get a report at the end of the day on the outcome of those trips?
A. Not always. Sometimes we would at the end of the day.
Q. Do you recall getting any report at the end of September 19th, 1984, regarding Henry Lucas being interviewed by El Paso officers?
A. I did talk with Clayton Smith when they - - No, let me back up. I believe that was in October. Did Lucas go before the grand jury in October?
Q. Yes.
A. I don’t recall the report, then, on the dates you’re talking about.
Q. Do you recall - - Do you recall any conversations regarding the El Paso - - with Clayton Smith or any of the El Paso officers on the outcome of their interviews with henry Lucas on either the 19th or the 20th of September in 1984?
A. No, sir. That’s too long ago for me to remember.
Q. Do you recall being told by Clayton Smith or
Page 1560
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
by Benito Perez or Jimmy Apodaca that they confirmed that Henry Lucas had killed Librada Apodaca?
I did receive that information from Clayton Smith at some time. When I received it, I’m sorry. I can’t tell you.
Q. According to the task force synopsis that I showed you earlier this afternoon, that information would have had to have been received by the 24th of September, the date you authored the synopsis report on Librada Apodaca. Is that correct?
A. That would be correct, then.
Q. Can you tell from this interview log when Henry Lucas returned to Georgetown from his trip to El Paso on September 20th, 1984?
A. It appears that he probably returned on the night of the 20th.
Q. Do you recall talking to Henry Lucas about this case in El Paso when he got back to Georgetown?
A. No, sir, I do not.
Q. Do you recall ever talking to Henry Lucas about this case regarding Librada Apodaca?
A. I don’t recall ever talking to him about this case.
Q. Do you recall ever talking to Henry Lucas about any case where he talked about killing someone
Page 1561
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
with an axe?
In a conversation between Lucas and Ottis Toole, I believe it was brought up that they had killed someone with an axe, but they couldn’t remember where.
Q. You’re sure that wasn’t a reference to the time that Henry Lucas said that he and Ottis Toole would steal cars from victims and that they would chop those cars up with an axe into little pieces? Do you recall that?
A. I don’t recall him ever saying that.
Q. Do you recall making the arrangements for Henry Lucas to come back to El Paso October 23rd. 1984?
A. I don’t specifically remember making arrangements. Obviously I did if he flew out here, but I don’t specifically recall making the arrangements.
Q. But those arrangements had to be approved by you, did they not?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. And this was going to be a lengthy trip for Henry to come spend four days in one city. Is that not correct?
A. I don’t believe our - - I don’t believe he
Page 1562
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
was out here four days. If I recall correctly, I don’t ever recall him being out here over one or two days at a time.
Q. Do you recall having any conversations with Bill Moody or anyone in the district attorney’s office before Henry Lucas came to El Paso on October 23rd, 1984?
A. No, sir. I never heard of Bill Moody before now.
Q. Do you recall if there was any conversations between any member of the task force and Bill Moody or any member of the DA’s office here in El Paso prior to Henry Lucas coming out here that trip?
A. No, not that I am aware of.
Q. What kind of phone records were kept by the task force?
A. Well, we didn’t keep phone records.
Q. Did the task force have a telephone separate and apart from the telephone used by the Williamson County Sheriff’s office?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did the task force make long distance telephone calls?
A. yes, sir.
Page 1563
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. How did the task force pay for those long distance telephone calls?
A. Well, we are members of what we call Regional Organized Crime Information Center. They have a WATS line that we could call on. Also we can call on the state WATS line, the TEXAM.
Q. Are those telephone calls independently logged someplace that were made by the task force during that time?
A. Most of them that were made or some of them that were made in state were - - or the ones that were made out-of-state would be up to the ROCIC to record, and I don’t know that they recorded the - - the information. I think they just dial the number and then connected you up.
Q. The task force interview log here shows that Henry Lucas was in El Paso October 23rd through the 26th. Is that correct? Is that correct?
A. That’s what it states. I can’t tell you whether it’s correct or not, but this is what it states.
Q. Can you think of any other city in Texas that Henry spent four days in other than El Paso and other than Georgetown, as far as going to crime scenes?
Page 1564
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
He probably did in Houston, Houston area.
Q. That would probably have been the only other place in Texas. Is that correct?
A. To the best of my knowledge, that is probably correct. I would have to look at the calendar. I’m wanting to doubt the accuracy of the dates. I’m not sure he was in El Paso four days. I don’t recall him being out here four days.
Q. Do you recall any discussions as to the purpose of Henry Lucas’ trip to El Paso in 1984 with El Paso officers or DA’s?
A. No, sir, I do not recall any conversation.
Q. With you and those persons?
A. That’s correct. I don’t recall it.
Q. Do you recall anyone else in the task force having any conversations as to why Henry Lucas was coming to El Paso for - - at least your records indicate for four days?
A. No, sir. I don’t recall specifically the conversation or I don’t recall specifically the other people having conversation. I just don’t recall a specific conversation.
Q. Did you not try to determine prior to approving Henry Lucas’ travel to another jurisdiction why the officers in that jurisdiction wanted to
Page 1565
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
interview Henry Lucas?
We would leave that up to the local coordinator. The local coordinator would normally be, if it was in Texas, would normally be the locally based ranger, and he would determine through the local contacts there how long that they needed him.
And if they called and said they needed Lucas there two days or one day, whatever, you know, that would be their determination. It wouldn’t be our determination. We might tell them how long they could have him because of other interviews, but if they needed him for a certain length of time, we certainly would try to accommodate them.
Q. Did you receive any reports from Clayton Smith or other task force members on these daily activities by Henry Lucas?
A. You mean, when he was traveling?
Q. When Henry was traveling.
A. When he was hauled in every day?
A. Yes.
A. I would talk to Clayton or whoever was with him quite frequently. I don’t know that I talked to him every day, but we would talk quite frequently.
Q. Would you have any reports made by Clayton Smith or anyone regarding these travels by Henry
Page 1566
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Lucas?
When we would return, if they did have a confirmed case or local agencies did clear a case, yes, he would bring back a synopsis.
Q. And do you recall if he brought back any synopsis from the October trip?
A. No, sir, I don’t recall that. I could look at the date when they gave us information on Sima Warren and I could - - But as far as these, knowing offhand whether that was, no, I don’t have that information.
Q. Henry Lucas spent two days traveling around El Paso on October 23rd and October 24th going to purported crime scenes. Did you receive telephone reports from Clayton Smith at the end of each of those days?
A. I just have to answer you like I did awhile ago. I don’t recall exactly what days he called.
Q. Henry Lucas appeared before the El Paso County Grand Jury on October 25th. Do you remember that?
A. I don’t remember that date, but I do recall a telephone conversation prior to him going before the grand jury.
Q. Who was that telephone conversation with?
Page 1567
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Clayton Smith and also Henry Lucas.
Q. You talked to Clayton Smith on the telephone?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Clayton Smith called you?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And told you that Henry wanted your advice as to whether he should appear before the grand jury. Is that correct?
A. That’s correct.
Q. And then did you talk to Henry Lucas?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. Didn’t Clayton Smith tell you Henry was reluctant and didn’t want to go before the grand jury?
A. I believe he did.
Q. And did Clayton Smith tell you that he and Bill Moody had been trying for some time to convince henry to appear before the grand jury and Henry was not being cooperative?
A. No, sir.
Q. He didn’t tell you something to that effect?
A. No, sir. If I remember the gist of the conversation, Henry wanted to talk to him about whether or not he should go before the grand jury. And when I talked with him, I told him that was totally his decision. I wouldn’t advise him one way
Page 1568
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
or the other.
Q. Who was Henry’s lawyer on October 25th, 1984?
A. There were several of record.
Q. Please name all the ones you can remember.
A. All the ones I can remember? One name would be Don Higginbotham and his co-counsel there in Georgetown.
Q. Parker McCullough?
A. Parker McCullough, yes, sir, plus a female attorney in there in Georgetown that was handling an appeal.
Q. Named Laura Little?
A. I believe that’s correct.
Q. When you received this telephone call from Clayton Smith on October 25th, 1984, you were in Georgetown, weren’t you?
A. No, sir.
Q. Where were you?
A. I was in my home in Waco.
Q. And when you received that telephone call, you knew that Henry Lucas had at least three lawyers in Georgetown at that time. Is that correct?
A. That’s correct.
Q. And when you received this telephone call from Clayton Smith, did you not perceive that request
Page 1569
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
to be a request for legal advice/
No, sir.
Q. You don’t think that when somebody asks you whether or not they should appear before a grand jury that that is not a request for legal advice as to what could happen if they appear before the grand jury, what rights they might have by appearing - - to not appear before a grand jury, what rights they might give up if they do appear before a grand jury, what the consequences might be of appearing before a grand jury? You didn’t think that was the nature of that request?
A. No, sir. I perceived that the nature of my request - - his request was as to whether or not I thought he should go before the grand jury, and I would not advise him either way. And I wouldn’t today.
Q. You didn’t give any friendly advice that he should cooperate, but whatever he wanted to do was up to him?
A. I told him - -That’s exactly what I told him. It was his decision. I would not advise him either way.
Q. You didn’t advise him not to, did you, sir?
A. No, sir.
Page 1570
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. When you received this telephone call, did you call Don Higginbotham and Parker McCullough or Laura Little?
A. No, sir, I did not.
Q. Who else did you talk to regarding Henry appearing before the grand jury?
A. When?
Q. That day.
A. No one.
Q. Did you ever have any conversations with Clemmie Schroeder?
A. I have had conversations with Clemmie Schroeder.
Q. Did you have any conversations with Clemmie Schroeder on October 24th, 1984, regarding whether or not Henry Lucas should appear before the El Paso County Grand Jury?
A. Not that I recall.
Q. Do you recall being told - - Do you recall telling Clayton Smith to have - - to get in touch with Clemmie and have her talk to Henry and that she would talk him into going before the grand jury?
A. No, not that I recall.
Q. Do you know if Henry Lucas talked to Clemmie Schroeder that day?
Page 1571
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
I don’t have any idea.
Q. When you were talking with Clayton Smith that day, did you ask Clayton Smith that - - to see if he can make arrangements for Henry to get his own lawyer in El Paso to independently advise Henry Lucas whether he should appear before the El Paso County Grand Jury?
A. No, sir, I did not.
Q. Do you know if that was done?
A. No, sir. I have no way of knowing.
Q. When Henry asked you about appearing before the grand jury, did you tell him that if he appeared before the grand jury and admitted to killing Librada Apodaca that in all likelihood the grand jury would indict him for capital murder and that the punishment for capital murder was life or death?
A. No, sir. I have already testified as to what I advised him, that it was his decision of whether or not he should appear before the grand jury. I would not advise him either way. And that was about the extent of my conversation with him that I recall.
Q. You knew at that time that what I just said is true, did you not?
A. You better ask your question again.
Page 1572
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. When Henry Lucas called you on October 25th of 1984, based upon your years of experience as a Texas Ranger, did you not have a very good gut feeling that if Henry appeared before that grand jury and admitted to killing Librada Apodaca that that grand jury would in all probability indict him for capital murder and that the penalty for capital murder would be life or death?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. But you didn’t tell that to Henry?
A. That’s correct.
Q. Now, Henry was calling you that day because he looked up to you sort of as his - - as a - - I hate to use the word friend, but, I mean, you-all had developed a certain rapport over the , I guess, about 12 months that the task force had been in operation up to that time. Would that not be correct?
A. That’s correct.
Q. And Henry oftentimes turned to you for advice about certain problems he might have here and there, would he not?
A. We had a - - obviously a good rapport, but I don’t - - I can’t think of any problems that he has come to me with.
Q. You saw each other almost every day when
Page 1573
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Henry was in Georgetown. Is that correct?
Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. As a matter of fact, you moved to Georgetown from Waco for part of the time that the task force was in operation. Isn’t that correct?
A. That’s not correct.
Q. You did not make arrangements to spend the night in Georgetown away from your home in Waco for a good bit of time that the task force was in operation?
A. Yes, but I didn’t consider that moving. Certainly I had to stay down there during the operation.
Q. You stayed down there during the work week?
A. I did not move my residence.
Q. But you actually stayed in Georgetown all day and you would spend the night there and you would be there the next day much of the time the task force was in operation. Is that correct?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. And Henry Lucas would ask you about problems he might be having with Clemmie Schroeder or problems he might be having with some investigating officer who had been rude to him or things of that nature, wouldn’t he?
Page 1574
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
I’m not aware specifically. I don’t recall any discussions like that right offhand.
Q. What kind of discussions do you recall having with Henry Lucas regarding the legal consequences of what he was confessing to at that time?
A. At that particular time?
Q. Yeah.
A. Or during that period of time?
Q. During that period of time.
A. Okay. Numerous times when officers would come in, you know, I would tell them Lucas appeared to be very willing to talk about his cases, and he would expect them to go back and file charges if that’s what they wanted to do. And then I would say this in front of Lucas. And I said, “No, Lucas, is this or is this or is this not correct?” And he said, “Yes, that is correct.”
Q. Would you advise him that by giving these confessions it was likely that he would be prosecuted for capital murder not only in El Paso but other places where he would receive the death penalty?
A. Yes, sir. He has been told that by me.
Q. By you?
A. Yes.
Page 1575
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. Did you ever discuss the Hand of Death with Henry Lucas?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. Did you believe Henry Lucas was involved in an organization called the Hand of Death?
A. No, sir, I did not.
Q. Did you ever talk with Henry Lucas whether or not he was responsible for the death of Jimmy Hoffa?
A. No, sir, I did not.
Q. Did you know he confessed to killing him?
A. Only what I read in the newspaper is the first I had seen of it.
Q. Did you ever talk to Henry about him kidnapping 500 school children and taking them to Mexico to sell them into slavery?
A. I knew that he had stated that he had kidnapped a large number. I never heard him say the figure 500 that I recall.
Q. Do you attach any credibility to that story?
A. I - - It’s possible that that occurred. I do know that he was interviewed by the FBI several times concerning that allegation.
Q. So it’s possible that Henry - - So you believe it’s possible that Henry Lucas did kidnap 500
Page 1576
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
school children and take them to Mexico?
No, sir, I do not. I think it’s possible that he did some.
Q. Some what?
A. Just what we are talking about, some children and take them into Mexico.
Q. 100, 200?
A. I cannot put a number on that at all.
Q. Were you aware that Jimmy - - I mean, that Henry Lucas had confessed to killing Lee Harvey Oswald?
A. No, sir, I have never heard that until you just stated it.
Q. Are you aware that Henry Lucas confessed to doing contract killings for wealthy oilmen in Texas?
A. Not until you just said everything.
Q. Are you familiar that Henry Lucas has confessed to going to Switzerland to perform contract killings?
A. He told me that, yes, sir.
Q. Did you believe him when he told you that?
A. I did not.
Q. Do you know that Henry Lucas confessed going to Canada to kill people?
A. Yes, sir.
Page 1577
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. Have you ever seen any proof that Henry Lucas was in Canada?
A. I have seen what I think is pretty good documentation that he was in Canada. I don’t know that I have seen absolute proof that he was in Canada.
At one time we did think that Canada - - or the Canadian authorities thought that their equivalency computer to the NCIC did have some inquiries on henry Lucas, but they determined they did not. But at one time they did tell us they had about five or six inquires in their computer on Henry Lucas, but they later retracted that.
Q. You don’t think an inquiry in a computer should prove somebody is in Canada, do you?
A. Well, the Canadian authorities thought he might have been there.
Q. Do you know that Henry Lucas confessed going to Mexico and committing murders?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you believe that he did that?
A. I have no way of knowing that because I never did discuss that with him.
Q. This transcript that we have of the Monroe, Louisiana, conference of henry Lucas, this was the first of the second conference?
Page 1578
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
I believe that’s probably the second conference.
Q. You testified that you did not attend that?
A. That’s correct.
Q. Did you read the transcript of the conference?
A. No, sir.
Q. I want to read you a portion of it. It doesn’t have a page number, but it is when David Marquez, who is a lieutenant from the El Paso Sheriff’s office, who testified there this morning and this is David Marquez speaking at the conference in Monroe, Louisiana.
MR. MOODY: Your Honor, you know, I don’t understand. He is asking Bob Prince about something David Marquez said, and he didn’t ask him - - and he had David Marquez on the stand and he didn’t ask him. And now he asks somebody else.
MR. PONTON: I didn’t have the document when David Marquez testified this morning.
THE COURT: He couldn’t ask him about this because he didn’t have this, but then I don’t understand what this has to do with this confession.
MR. PONTON: It has to do with the veracity
Page 1579
to be given to Henry Lucas for committing this crime and whether or not this man would tell the El Paso authorities that Henry Lucas should not been believed at all, Your Honor.
And I have here a statement regarding an El Paso murder by an El Paso sheriff’s officer that I believe is pertinent to this line of questioning.
THE COURT: God, how can this man - - he wasn’t there. He has never met the officer. He doesn’t know what the officer said. What is your question to him that would be pertinent to the suppression of Henry Lucas’ confession in El Paso?
MR. PONTON: Well, it would be whether or not he has ever heard from David Marquez that Henry Lucas and Ottis Toole traveled in Mexico with poodles at a time when they didn’t have a permit to take the poodles to Mexico and whether he ever shared that information with Bill moody or anybody in El Paso. That’s the pertinence, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Do you know David Marquez?
No, sir, not that I’m aware of.
THE COURT: From what I can tell, he doesn’t know the man, so he couldn’t have heard it. And you just got that so you couldn’t have known it to ask David Marquez, so I don’t see what it has to do with
Page 1580
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
This confession. That’s what I’m saying.
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) Let me ask you this, Captain. Clayton smith was at this conference, is that correct, to your knowledge? I have seen some references here to him speaking.
A. Well, I’m sure he was, then. I didn’t recall whether he was there or not.
Q. And there were - - Here is a reference to Don Overstreet and there were some other Texas Rangers at that conference. Is that correct? To the best of your recollection, is that correct?
A. I’m sorry, sir. I wasn’t there and I don’t know who was there. You just asked me to bring that document and I did.
Q. And I appreciate your bringing it, Captain. This document was disseminated to the members of the Lucas task force after it was prepared by the Regional Organized Crime Information Center, wasn’t it?
A. Yes, sir. I don’t know when I received that, but I did not receive that.
Q. And this document, sir, talks about some officers in there clearly stating at a conference with their fellow law enforcement officials that they think that Henry Lucas and Ottis Toole are committing
Page 1581
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Fraudulent confessions that should be given no veracity whatsoever. Would that be a fair statement?
You’re saying that for the first time out of that. I haven’t head that. I’m not surprised to hear that from some officers that - - because this is certainly a controversial person as to whether he is believable, and that is why we have had the position all along you believe him if you can confirm it. If you can’t confirm it, you just don’t know whether to believe it or not.
Q. When Henry Lucas talks about school children to Mexico and killing Jimmy Hoffa and things of that nature, do you consider that to be a fraudulent confession?
A. I certainly think Mr. Hoffa was, but I never heard him state that. I have heard him state that he has taken school children to Mexico, and I think that determination should be made by the investigating authorities. I would have no knowledge of specific case. This is why we contacted the FBI, and they did have numerous conversations with him about that one point.
Q. Isn’t it true that you have heard Henry Lucas confess to literally hundreds of crimes that you know or have been able to confirm he did not
Page 1582
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
commit?
No, sir. I think that’s a very erroneous statement. I can think of probably three or four where there is absolutely no way that he could have committed and that he did give very accurate description, and we just cannot explain how he can do that.
But as far as many, no, I can’t. I have heard, you know, of a lot that you can’t confirm, but it’s not absolutely a fact he couldn’t have done them.
Q. Would it, then, be your testimony that every one of henry Lucas’ confessions that you’re aware of but in three or four cases should be believed? Is that your testimony?
A. No, sir, not at all.
Q. Well, is it not true, Captain, that Henry Lucas, to your knowledge, has confessed to much more than three of four crimes that it’s impossible for him to have committed?
A. No, sir. I don’t know that I can say that there was that many. I can say there are quite a number that you can’t confirm one way or the other where he would describe a homicide and you can’t locate that particular type homicide. But, now, I have always taken the position you believe him if you
Page 1583
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
can confirm. If you can’t confirm it, he is not always believable.
Q. You know Phil Ryan, don’t you?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Texas Ranger in Decatur?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you know Henry Lucas confessed to approximately 77 murders to him in June of 1983, none of which could ever be confirmed as having been a crime that was actually committed. You’re aware of that, are you not?
A. I’m aware also that these crimes may have been committed, yet they could not be confirmed.
Q. Well, that could apply to practically anything.
A. Sure. As we were talking awhile ago about Canada, he described several homicides to the Canadian authorities. The Canadian authorities were not able to document these particular homicides. This does - - is not absolute proof he didn’t commit them. It just states that they have not been able to confirm what he said.
Q. Now, the Texas Rangers through their task force synopsis that I showed you earlier today that is sitting right here before you - -
Page 1584
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Yes.
Q. - - disseminated information to the general law enforcement public and to the general public through the news media that Henry Lucas was confirmed as having committed 156 crimes and later over 200 crimes. Is that correct?
A. No, sir, that’s not correct.
Q. This information in this task force synopsis here was not shared with other law enforcement agencies that Henry Lucas had probably committed those crimes?
A. Well, we are going to have to break your question up some. You asked several questions there.
Q. I don’t mean to confuse you, Captain, but is it not true the information in this task force synopsis on Henry Lucas committing all of these crimes was shared with other law enforcement agencies?
A. That answer is correct.
Q. And did not you at times and your boss Colonel Adams, at times and other members of the Texas Rangers, the DPS, appear before the news media to announce that they had found the world’s greatest serial murderer and that they had been able to confirm his involvement in 150 or 200 case?
A. I’m not aware of the figure ever being 200.
Page 1585
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
I believe awhile ago you stated well in excess of 200. I’m not aware of him ever being confirmed being involved in that many. There has been some statements made by me and also by Colonel Adams in response to questions from the media.
Q. That’s correct. And those responses by you our your boss, Colonel Adams, would be that Henry Lucas is a serial killer and the Texas Ranger task force has been able to confirm that he has killed 150 or 200 people, something in that neighborhood. Is that correct?
A. No, sir, I don’t believe that is correct. The Texas Ranger Task Force is not the one confirming the homicides. We are getting away completely from our responsibility. Our responsibility is - -
Q. Sir, but the - - I know what your responsibility is and you told that - -
A. Okay.
Q. You told that to us earlier.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. But would you not make statements to the news media that the Texas Ranger task force and other agencies were able to confirm that Henry Lee Lucas was the world’s greatest serial killer and killed in excess of 150 people based on the clearance of those
Page 1586
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
crimes by the task force or the agencies involved. Would that be a fair statement?
No, sir, it would not.
Q. Why not?
A. Well, you’re getting back to the same thing. I keep trying to answer the Texas Ranger task force is not confirming these homicides.
Q. I’m not - - Well, they are not, but I have got a list here of about 25 or 30 cases where Texas Rangers interviewed Henry Lucas and your own synopsis says that the Texas Ranger cleared the case.
A. Well, there is a difference between the Texas Ranger task force and Texas Rangers, as I explained earlier.
Q. Well, you confused me. I’m sorry.
THE COURT: Let me say this to you. I’m not confused, and I’m the one that is supposed to make the decision and I’m not confused at all about it. This doesn’t confuse me at all. We have gone over it over it and over it.
MR. PONTON: My point is - -
THE COURT: I think what he is saying - - And correct me if I’m wrong. He is saying the task force confirmed a particular case because the local officers, whoever they might have been, told us that
Page 1587
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
they took the facts that they got from Henry Lucas and they investigated them and they said yes, we are going to go with because we think he did it.
MR. PONTON: That’s right.
THE COURT: And they said - - On their list, they said, okay, then, Joe Brown from Louisiana, wherever you are, then you’re confirming that your murder, rape, whatever it is, that you think you have some evidence on it. And that is what he is saying to me.
He is not saying he confirmed it. He is saying that the local people that investigated confirmed it and he made the checkmark and said okay, confirmed.
Now, is that what you’re saying, Officer?
Yes, sir, that’s exactly - -
THE COURT: That’s what I thought you were saying all along, and I’m not trying to get involved in your lawsuit.
MR. PONTON: I understand.
THE COURT: I think I understand that. I have been understanding that for almost two days.
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) The point that is escaping me here, Captain, is it your testimony that you or Colonel Adams never in response to questions from the
Page 1586
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
News media told the news media that Henry Lucas was responsible for in excess of 150 murders across the country?
Okay.
Q. However you want to crack down that responsibility - -
A. Okay.
Q. - - would that be a fair statement?
A. Yes, it would be a pretty fair statement.
Q. And at the time that the task force was sharing that information with the general public and at the time the task force was sharing that information with law enforcement officials through the synopsis, were they also telling the public and the law enforcement officials that Henry Lucas had made much more than 150 fraudulent confessions that could be shown that he could not have occurred - - not have committed?
A. Yes, sir. I believe this would be a correct statement, that Lucas made lots of claims that could not be corroborated. If you could not corroborate his claim, you didn’t believe it, and so there were lots of things he said that could be unbelievable because you couldn’t find any proof to believe him.
Q. Let’s talk about that proof for a moment.
Page 1589
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Let’s exclude from this discussion I’m about to have with you the murders of Kate Rich and Becky Powell, which are murders of two persons that Henry Lucas confessed to and for which he has been convicted and which were two people he knew prior to their respective disappearances.
Other than those two cases, please tell me how many bodies henry Lucas took law enforcement officials to as a result of his confessions.
None that I am aware of.
Q. And please tell me how many murders that you think Henry Lucas has confesses to that you want to give any kind of veracity to.
A. It would be impossible for me to say how many that I believe Lucas was involved in. The agencies that have interviewed Lucas, there is approximately, approximately 162 that they still believe he is responsible for even after the take away and this sort of thing. There is approximately 162 in their determination.
There are certainly different levels of certainty, certainty different levels of belief in these 162. There is 11 of them where he has been convicted. This is one level or certainty, quite a number more where he has been charged with the crime.
Page 1590
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. Indicted?
A. Indicted. And there is many more where the officers very strongly believe he is involves but see no reason to indict him, and there is others where there is a disagreement even among the investigating officers whether or no he is involved.
But the number is somewhere in the neighborhood of about 162 where the investigating officers believe Lucas is involved in their homicide.
Q. Okay. Let’s take your own figures here, Captain. 162, taking away the two from North Texas, how many of those 160 murders that the DPS thinks Henry Lucas is good for, how many of those did henry Lucas take an officer to the victim’s body where the victim’s body was not known beforehand?
A. As I stated awhile ago, none that I’m aware of.
Q. Would it be a fair statement that Henry Lucas has had far more indictments dismissed against him then he now has pending against him?
A. No, I don’t believe that would be an accurate statement at all.
Q. You’re not aware of four indictments being dismissed in Lubbock County, Texas?
A. Yes, sir - - No. I believe there is three,
Page 1591
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
if I’m not mistaken.
Q. All right. And you’re not aware - -
THE COURT: You know, Rod - - I mean, Mr. Ponton, what does this have to do with this confession?
MR. PONTON: This has to do with this confession, Your Honor, because I believe the evidence would show that Captain Prince and the Texas Rangers task force had information that Henry Lee Lucas would confess to anything and everything with absolutely no basis whatsoever for having any involvement in it and that the task force knew that Henry Lee Lucas was giving fraudulent confessions and task force knew this on September 20th, 1984, and October 25th, 1984, when Henry Lee Lucas was in El Paso County, Texas, confessing to killing Librada Apodaca.
THE COURT: But I’m talking about this confession. You mean to tell me you think they knew that he was going to falsely confess to this killing and they let him do it?
MR. PONTON: Based on his track record, I believe they certainly could have told - - accurately told that to the district attorneys of El Paso County, and he said he hasn’t done that.
Page 1592
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
THE COURT: A murder that he voluntarily confessed to, according to what I have been told. I haven’t heard anybody say or come in and say to me that this man or the rangers or anybody have been indicted for anything. I think that the indictment is against Lucas, I think the indictment - - This hearing is for the suppression of a confession. I don’t - - I’d just like to get to that part of it. That’s all I want to do.
MR. PONTON: Well, Your Honor, I - -
THE COURT: Do you want to take a recess and take it up in the morning or are you about through?
MR. PONTON: I believe I’m not through, Your Honor, I believe that I would tie this type of questioning up later to show that the legal issue before Your Honor of whether or not Henry Lucas’ confession to killing Librada Apodaca was voluntary, I believe I can tie it up by showing that it’s not voluntary, that the manner in which Henry Lucas was treated, like a king, being taken around the state in a big DPS airplane and fed well at Forti’s restaurant stopped as soon as Henry Lucas stopped giving confessions to the DPS task force.
THE COURT: But you have got to remember that talking to Lucas at Forti’s restaurant was not done
Page 1594
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
By this man, it was done by his officer. It was done by the local police department and they have so testified that they took him to Forti’s.
I’m going to be willing to bet you that Captain Prince nor any of his people who have testified here in this courtroom could even tell you there was a Forti’s restaurant in El Paso. The local police officers took these people to the restaurant. These people didn’t take anybody to that restaurant.
MR. PONTON: I believe, Your Honor, that the testimony would be that Clayton Smith and Buster Collins were along on that dining adventure.
THE COURT: They certainly were. They were along on it because they made this man available, But they did not take the man to the restaurant. The local people took his confession. The local people did those things.
MR. PONTON: But that precisely my point here, Your Honor, that those rangers were making Henry Lucas available who would confess to anything a local officer put in front of him as long as he was dined well, taken around in a captain’s chair in a car, flown well, things of this nature which I consider to be something that would take away hos voluntariness of the confession of Librada Apodaca’s
Page 1595
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
murder.
THE COURT; We will talk about that tomorrow morning. Let’s come back in the morning at - - Well, how long do you think you will be?
MR. PONTON: I am sure we could - -
MS. SIPES: Your Honor, we have some material we subpoenaed from Captain Prince and we would request copies of, and if we could get a ruling on that, it is possible that we could have those copied before - -
THE COURT: Where is the material?
MS. SIPES: Right here, Your honor.
MR. PONTON: Right here, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Mr. Moody, do you have any problems with that?
MR. MOODY: Which ones do they want, Your Honor?
THE COURT: I have no idea what they want. I don’t have anybody here now to do any copying for me because - -
MR. PONTON: I can just take this to my office, your honor. We have a - -
THE COURT: Well, I’m not going to let you take them to your office.
MR. PONTON: I just made that offer. It’s
Page 1596
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
up to Mr. Moody to - -
THE COURT: I’ll tell you what you do. If you will - - Excuse me - - can agree to let - - if you-all agree to let either one of you have it, that’s fine with me. If you don’t agree and you agree to the copies, I’ll have the copies made way we have been trying to have copies made.
MR. MOODY: I would rather do it that way.
MS. SIPES: I would, too, Your Honor.
THE COURT: I think so. I think that that way we don’t get into any arguments.
MR. MOODY: We won’t have any arguments at all.
THE COURT: Tell me what it is that you want copied.
MR. PONTON: These documents right here.
THE COURT: You-all can spend some time here right now looking over them if you like and then tomorrow morning we will send down, have them copied, do what you want.
I want to get some idea how long you think you’re going to be with this gentleman, because I’m going to start at 9:00 or I’m going to start at 8:00 or - - you know, what I want to do is, as I told you, I have set aside tomorrow afternoon for other matters.
Page 1597
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Now, then, I’d like to get this over with if I possibly can. If I can’t, that’s something that I just can’t do.
MR. PONTON: All I could suggest is that if we started at 9:00 we will work very hard at trying to finish. I can’t make any - - We might not be able to, but this is information that Ms. Sipes and I want to - -
THE COURT: Well, how far are right now from quitting? You’re not going to ask him the same old questions again, are you?
MR. PONTON: No, Your Honor, I will not.
THE COURT: So if we don’t ask the same questions anymore, then we are going to get into new questions concerning the Henry Lucas confession to the killing of Librada Apodaca?
MR. PONTON: Yes, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Can we try to get into that?
MR. PONTON: Yes, Your Honor.
THE COURT: This is two weeks not and we are finally going to get into it. Okay. I’d appreciate it. Boy, I would just love to get into that part of this hearing.
MR. PONTON: Yes, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Okay. Do you think we can start
Page 1598
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
at 9:00?
MR. PONTON: Yes, Your Honor.
THE COURT: If you think I’m not going to push you, you’re wrong. We will start at 9:00. You-all can be here at 8:00 or 7:30 to read that material if you want to or you can - - we will start getting it typed - - copied tomorrow morning. I want you to read over that material so you will be ready to go. But let’s try to get with what we are doing, please.
(An evening recess was taken.)
Page 1593
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
IN THE DISTRICT OF EL PASO COUNTY, TEXAS
THE STATE OF TEXAS )
)
VS. ) CAUSE NO. 43314-120
)
HENRY LEE LUCAS )
heard on
SEPTEMBER 29TH, 1986
Page 1719
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
For the State: WILLIAM MOODY
First Assistant District Attorney
City-county Building
El Paso, TX 79901
RICHARD JEWKES
Assistant District Attorney
City-county Building
El Paso, TX 79901
CAROL PENNOCK
Assistant District Attorney
City-county Building
El Paso, TX 79901
For the Defendant: ROD PONTON
Attorney at Law
Suite 505
Caples Building
El Paso, TX 79901
DORIS SIPES
Attorney at Law
1011 North Mesa
El Paso, TX 79901
Page 1720
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
WITNESSES PAGE
HENRY LEE LUCAS
DIRECT Examination by Mr. Ponton 1765
Page 1721
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
WITNESSES PAGE
HENRY LEE LUCAS
DIRECT Examination by Mr. Ponton 1765
Page 1722
EXHIBITS DESCRIPTION MARKED IDENTIFIED OFFERED REC’D
D-18 Bowie Medical
Records 1783 1783 1783 1813
D-19 Bowie Memorial
Hospital 1783 1783 1784 1813
D-20 Wichita Falls
Hospital
Records 1784 1784 1784 1813
D-21 Ryan’s
Notebook 1786 1787 1787 1813
D-22 Task Force
Interview
Log 1801 1801 1804 1813
D-23 Dr. Benold’s
Records 1855 1855 1856 1856
D-24 Williamson
County Jail
Records 1856 1856 1858 1858
D-25 Confessions 1860 1865 1867 1867
Page 1723
THE STATE OF TEXAS )
)
VS. ) CAUSE NO. 43314-120
)
HENRY LEE LUCAS )
BE IT REMEMBERED that on the 29th day of September, 1986, beginning at 1:10 p.m. came to be heard the continuation of pretrial motions in the above styled and numbered cause, before the HONORABLE BRUNSON MOORE, Judge Presiding in and for the 120th Judicial District Court, and that the same was reported by Meryl Wersinger, Certified Shorthand Reporter and Notary Public in and for the County Court at Law Number Four, El Paso County, Texas, and that the following proceedings were had as follows, to-wit:
Page 1724
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, I guess the first thing we need to take up is the motion to dismiss because of the state’s withholding of exculpatory evidence. I have just received a copy of that.
Mr. Ponton, do you want to get into that at this time?
MR. PONTON: Yes, Your Honor. It had been a continuing concern of Ms. Sipes and I in our defense of Mr. Lucas that we felt that we have not been given all of the material in the possession of the district attorney’s office that is exculpatory of this defendant’s involvement in the crime he was accused of committing here in El Paso County.
The district attorney’s office as noted in the motion has possession for - - since June of 1983 that another suspect has confessed to this crime by the name of Geovany Chavez. The district attorney’s office had possession since shortly after that of several other statements and confessions - - confessions or other statements implicating suspects in this case, many of which have not been disclosed to counsel for the defense.
For example, as delineated in the motion, there were approximately 23 statements or confessions
Page 1725
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Implicating persons or implicating the - - whoever made the statement in this case that we have been able to find after a diligent search of all the material we have been able to have access to. The - - After a search of that material, it was apparent that over half of those statements and confessions were not provided to counsel for the defense through the court’s order that the state provide all exculpatory or impeachment material to the counsel for the defendant herein.
The track record there of failing to disclose these matters of knowing that exculpatory matters, for instance, stayed within Benito Perez’ box of papers but withdrawing those papers from Ms. Sipes when she was deposing that witness at a deposition held in this cause shows to me that the state was not fully complying with their Constitutional duty under Brady versus Maryland to provide to counsel for the defense all exculpatory materials in this case.
The - - Because of that, we have moved that this Court either dismiss this prosecution because the state has failed to provide all those materials pertinent to the mandate of Brady or that we have a further query and order from the Court that all such
Page 1726
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
materials be disclosed.
If the state had possession of all these other statements and implications and confessions of other persons to the death of Librada Apodaca, there may yet be more. If we have 23 statements or confessions here that - - in this case, only four of which are Henry Lucas’, there may be another 19 statements existing that we do not have access to and have not been privy to yet, and I don’t believe that is the way the Constitution tells all of us that these exculpatory should be disclosed.
So based on that and based on the statements and confessions listed in this motion, we request that the Court either dismiss this prosecution because the state has withheld exculpatory evidence from the defense herein or that we have a further inquiry as to what additional exculpatory material that the state may have in its possession that has been heretofore undisclosed to the defense.
MR. MOODY: Well, Your Honor, I think Brady versus Maryland applies to settings where the defense is talking about exculpatory material that is withheld to them - - withheld from them and the trial is actually held and then they did not have that evidence in their possession at the time that the
Page 1727
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
trial was actually held. It never delineates at what moment the state is to turn over any exculpatory evidence, if there is any. There is a great deal of disparity, you know, between the state’s position and the defense position as to what is exculpatory and what is not exculpatory evidence in this case.
For that matter, I mean, you know, they are claiming things in these 23 different statements that relate even to facts - -they are claiming things like if someone has a dream and in that dream they state that someone else did the murder that that is exculpatory. Well, I’ve never seen any case law that, if a person had a dream, that we have to turn over dream evidence to the defense. I don’t think that is hardly exculpatory whatsoever, and it varies on each of their 23 points on the exculpatory of that kind of evidence.
The defense has at this time been turned over - - or I believe is in the process of being turned over a copy of every single piece of evidence or paper that we have, and they have gone through these notebooks and we have given them copies of those, the pages they wanted. I can’t see anything - - We don’t have anything at this point that would be exculpatory or inculpatory.
Page 1728
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
I told them even if we find things that are inculpatory, things that tend to prove he is going to be guilty between now and a trial date setting, we will turn those over. I will inform you of things - - I will inform trial counsel of things that we plan to do between now and trial so that they don’t come back and say we surprised them, we tried to do some things that we didn’t tell them about. As soon as we obtain any information that is, well, of any value, we will be happy to turn it over to them and then they can decide if it’s exculpatory or inculpatory for their own purpose.
Brady just doesn’t apply at this phase of the trial. Brady applies as an appellate issue after a trial has already been had.
And we did have some questions on - - particularly on the Geovany Chavez statement. And in regards to that, we were the ones at the pretrial hearing that brought out that evidence at the, I believe, the second deposition with Jimmy Apodaca. We had that evidence brought out. Not that they brought it out, we brought it out through our questioning.
MR. PONTON: Excuse me. I think that’s a misstatement of the record of that deposition, Mr.
Page 1729
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Moody.
MR. MOODY: Well, I don’t think - -
THE COURT: Well, let me say this to you, Mr. Ponton. If it is indeed a misstatement, you can call it to the Court’s attention after Mr. Moody gets through.
MR. PONTON: Yes, Your Honor.
MR. MOODY: And additionally, even that particular statement, the exculpability of it in our mind or the state’s position is highly nebulous. If somebody that is under a threat or under duress when they give a statement, if somebody walks into this courtroom right now and points the gun at one of these people out here and says, “Now, you say that you did it,” and they say, “Okay, I did it. Just don’t shoot me,” now, is that exculpatory? DO we have to turn that over? I mean, to me, you know, that’s the type of evidence that is absolutely unbelievable, gained by duress same as the cattle prod incident.
That evidence was turned over to them. We had asked that the questions in those areas be certified up for the Court so when the Judge got back from his trip that we could discuss those matters with the Court. We will take whatever responsibility
Page 1730
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
on it not being actually brought to the Court’s attention. It was done, though, because our understanding was that when the court left that hopefully a great deal of pretrial matters would not end up in the media.
Unfortunately, they were while the Court was gone, and we wanted to wait until the Court got back to see how the Court wanted - - or if any of those things should be released because it seemed like as soon as we would release any information, the next thing we knew is we saw it on the front pages of the newspapers. The defense attorney in this case - - without that being their fault, but it did seem like from our interpretation something that the Court did not want to see happening in this trial. So that’s the reason - - that was the reason why, we were waiting for the court to get back and for the defense to certify up the questions to the Court.
We don’t feel that there is any merit to this motion, and if necessary, at least for the issue of dismissal, for the issue if the court wants us to continue to give over papers and documents as we get them, we will be happy to. We have been in the process of giving them all videotape copies, all tapes recorded copies of every statement even to the extent
Page 1731
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
of giving them all the copies of all the extraneous cases.
I can’t think of anything in our file that they haven’t looked at, seen or whatever. There was the problem of what was in Detective Perez’ personal notes that he had taken in the case, which we hadn’t even looked at at one point. And when I finally did try to look at it, I had trouble reading it to see what it says, anyway.
So I don’t know if, you know, that can be said, you know, that was totally in our possession and totally exculpatory in its nature. But even if it was, there isn’t any harm at this point. Defense obviously has had access to it, they have access to it, and they will have continual access to it.
MR. PONTON: If I might briefly respond, Your Honor?
In response to Mr. Moody’s discussion of the state disclosing that Jimmy Apodaca and Benito Perez had gone to Juarez and witnessed the torture of Geovany Chavez, I believe the deposition would show that Ms. Sipes was asking that question of the witness, Jimmy Apodaca. And when it became apparent that he was about to testify that he was a party to torture in Mexico, she requested that he not answer
Page 1732
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
That question and that he seek independent counsel to advise him of his Fifth Amendment right not to incriminate himself.
And the next day he came back, after seeking such counsel and in response to voir dire by Richard Jewkes, did state exactly what Ms. Sipes anticipated that he would state the day before, that he had witnessed and had been a party to a torture in Mexico.
The fact that Mr. Moody says that Geovany Chavez’ torture - - his confession under torture is not exculpatory is belied by the fact that Mr. Moody himself two years later, in January of this year, made a request that Geovany Chavez’ blood and semen be checked. If he gave no veracity to that confession in June of 1983, why is he asking the Juarez judicial police to arrest Geovany Chavez In January of 1986 and hold him so that Mr. Moody can make arrangements to have to have the blood and semen checked of Geovany Chavez, which, by the way, later checks out that Geovany Chavez’s blood and semen matches that found on the victim, Librada Apodaca, and Lucas’ blood and semen doesn’t.
If that is the case, it seems to me that they should clearly be in possession of some communications between the district attorney’s office
Page 1733
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
and the judicial police in Juarez, which might be a communication to the effect for Mr. Moody, “Well, maybe we have some additional information that Geovany Chavez did it. Please arrest this guy so we can check up on him again.” If they had that - - If they had enough to go to that trouble, they must have - - they might have some additional things that we have not seen, Your Honor.
I believe I cited cases in my motion to Your Honor that states that - - to the effect that a trial is not a game of wits. A trial is not a game of chance for the district attorney’s office to engage in a slight of hand, that Brady requires that the defense be given material far enough in advance of trial to be able to make good use of it.
From what Mr. Moody proffered to the court, it appears that his interpretation of Brady is they can hold back all this exculpatory material until sometime during the trial and that would discharge their duty under the constitutions of the United States and Texas. I submit to the court that that is not what Brady teaches us and that is not the manner in which the ABA standards for the prosecution function teach prosecutors to try a case, that it should be done in a fair spirit to try to - - so that
Page 1734
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
The trial of the cause, which all of us are involved, will be a truth-seeking process.
That’s all I have, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Well, I agree that Brady says that you should get any of this information prior to the trial. I don’t know how much prior, but you certainly should have it before the trial so that you can make use of it. It shouldn’t be handed to you in the middle of the trial and say, here it is, because at that point in time you have no - - you can’t go out and investigate unless the trial is closed down to give you time to go out and find out whether or not any of that is true or not true, whether the information given to you is exculpatory or not. I agree with that.
I don’t - - I want to give Mr. Moody the opportunity to clear up for this court what you said concerning him having - - or the district attorney’s office having Mr. Geovany Chavez arrested in Juarez for the purpose of questioning. I would like - - if Mr. Moody would like to, Mr. Moody, you may want to clear that up at this time. If not, I’ll leave it like it is.
MR. MOODY: No, Your Honor, we obviously did not - - I did not order Mr. Geovany Chavez’ arrest in
Page 1735
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Mexico. I can see by reading the case and our file and I’m sure the defense can see as they were reading our file and the material that they had in their possession that Mr. Geovany Chavez might be a suspect. In fact, the police had considered him a suspect. You can see that from reading our files.
As I was reconsidering our evidence in our files, that was what prompted me to say, well, let’s run a blood semen type of Geovany Chavez. Let’s see if - - would the El Paso police go to Juarez or make liaison with the Juarez officials to see if Mr. Chavez would voluntarily give us a semen or a blood sample for the purposes of seeing how it would come out on a test.
Since he had been a suspect and I felt that the defense would have to be blind no to be able to see him as a suspect in this case, at one time we sought a - - the permission, consent in Mexico for that. That’s all there was to it.
There was no arrest of Mr., Chavez, to my knowledge. I certainly didn’t order any arrest. I don’t have any power to order any arrest in Mexico nor would I have if I had such power ordered him arrested in Mexico.
It simply is a matter of trying to find out
Page 1736
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
for either elimination purposes, couldn’t be eliminated or maybe was he still a potential suspect. And of course, that file and those blood results were given to the defense. They had those in advance about Mr. Geovany Chavez’ blood type.
And putting that together with the evidence that was already in our file that they knew of that he was a suspect early on, that was, you know, there wasn’t anything more. I didn’t think - - I didn’t know of anything else to disclose to them not being aware of the cattle prod incident until it was brought up later.
THE COURT: Well, in other words, you’re saying you had nothing to do with the cattle prod incident?
MR. MOODY: No. That - - We weren’t even - - From what I understand, that was involved way back in July or something of ’83 right after the murder. And we had not been - - we did not get involved in this case - - I know I personally did not get involved in this case until probably September 20th, 1984, the date that they tell me that Henry Lucas is confessing to the case here, that the facts and details seem rather similar to our case and how do you want the confession taken? And it was my recommendation to do
Page 1737
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
it on a videotape on September 20th, 1984. It must have been at least over a year after the cattle prod incident had occurred that I was even involved in this case.
THE COURT: So what you’re tell us now for this record is that in your opinion Mr. Geovany Chavez gave a semen sample or blood sample without incident. He was asked to give it and gave it and that’s what happened.
MR. MOODY: Yes, that was my understanding. And I think the defense attorneys had a long opportunity to depose both Sergeant Apodaca and Detective Perez who were present when this sample was given, and I don’t - - from my recollection of that deposition, I don’t recall any coercion or threats that were used in that incident.
THE COURT: And that was the voluntary statement? I mean, there’s no - -
MR. MOODY: There was no statement, from my understanding.
THE COURT: A voluntary - - He voluntarily gave this - -
MR. MOODY: That’s what we under - - That’s what I have been told by the El Paso police, and I think that is what was testified to in deposition in
Page 1738
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
these pretrial matters.
THE COURT: That’s fine, Mr. Moody. I’m glad you clarified that for me, because I was thinking that possibly - - I’m glad this came out because I was thinking possibly you were saying to this Court that this man had volunteered to be tortured at the time he was tortured. But the volunteering came when he gave the semen sample rather than when he was tortured to give a confession. Is that correct?
MR. MOODY: Right. That’s what I was saying, that at the time that we were advised of the case, what they were speaking of here was the semen sample and I thought that is what you wanted me to address - -
THE COURT: Well, that’s exactly what - -
MR. MOODY: I addressed both issues. We knew nothing about the cattle prod incident. And when we knew of the - -
THE COURT: I assumed maybe that the semen sample was given at the same time. I don’t know.
MR. MOODY: No, there was - - must have been at least over a year, I assume a year.
THE COURT: I understand that.
MR. MOODY: I assume that the July ’83 incident occurred and, of course, the - -
Page 1739
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
THE COURT: I understand that. That’s the reason I wanted you to clarify for this record that you - - neither you nor your office had anything to do with that. That’s the reason I wanted that on this record.
MR. MOODY: No.
THE COURT: I don’t want this record to have anything - - that has anything with your office saying that this man volunteered to be - - to have a cattle prod used on his testicles. I think - -
MR. MOODY: I don’t - - It’s not - -It - -And I think the court is aware that, you know, the district attorney’s office doesn’t become involved in a case until it is officially presented or maybe a few days before it’s presented if they have some questions about the presentation, and there was no presentation of the case until September, I think, of ’84.
THE COURT: That’s the reason I wanted you to clear it up. I didn’t want anybody to get a misconception here.
MR. PONTON: Your honor, it was our information from some investigation that we had undertaken or tried to undertake in Juarez that in, I believe it was, in January of 1986 when Mr. Moody
Page 1740
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Made that request, our investigation showed that perhaps Mr. Chavez was arrested. I can’t say whether he was arrested because of this or maybe he was arrested on another charge. And that information was shared with the district attorney’s office, so I can’t tell the Court exactly what that is because I don’t know that. Our information is sketchy from Juarez.
I do know, however, based upon the deposition testimony of Joe Bailon and Benito Perez that in the summer of 1983, I don’t believe as Mr. Moody testified that the district attorney’s office was involved at that time but certainly that the El Paso Police Department was. And they went over to Juarez. And their testimony was that they went down the street with a couple of Juarez judicial police officers and rounded up 10 or 15 transvestites and male prostitutes and loaded them in an old Cadillac like cord wood and arrested them and brought them to the Juarez jail. I believe that they were so crowded in that old Cadillac that Benito Perez feared for his manhood - - I believe something to that effect it was told to me - - and that they were literally just stacked up to the ceiling in this old Cadillac, arrested with these two El Paso police officers and
Page 1741
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Driven to the Juarez jail where that stayed.
They were fingerprinted and the fingerprints were brought to El Paso to be checked against the crime scene in the Librada Apodaca case, and they stayed arrested at the instructions of the El Paso Police Department until Art Orozco calls back to Juarez and says, “These fingerprints don’t match. Let them go.” And I believe that is on the record, Your Honor, in the depositions of Joe Bailon and Benito Perez.
So that apparently occurred at a time prior to the 34th judicial District Attorney’s involvement in the case, but it certainly shows that the el Paso Police Department was in the practice of going to Mexico and causing Mexican citizens to be arrested and held without probable cause in Juarez so that they could be investigated for an American case.
THE COURT: Well, Mr. Ponton, this is the first I have ever heard of anything like what you have just said. To be honest with you, I don’t know how to answer it, don’t know anything about it other than what you have told me. That’s the first I have heard of that.
But I was interested in clearing up when you made a statement that the district attorney had had
Page 1742
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
The police go to Juarez to have this man arrested or picked up. I wanted to clarify for this record by Mr. Moody that he had not been involved in that particular thing and you have just clarified it as well as Mr. Moody. That’s what I wanted to clear.
I don’t want any accusations or allegations on this record that someone has done something wrong if it was someone else, you see? And I’m not - - That’s the only thing I wanted. I just think that there was a misstatement and I wanted to clarify it.
MR. PONTON: That’s fine, Your Honor. Along that same vein, I’d like to inquire on the record at this time and it’s something that Ms. Sipes and I have in that motion before Your Honor, in that in January of 1986 when Mr. Moody is requesting this blood and semen type of Geovany Chavez at a time 15 to 16 months after this client, this citizen accused, Henry Lucas, is indicted in this case, I have never yet been in receipt of any document or any satisfactory answer as to what information or what new information the district attorney’s office had 16 months after my client’s indictment to make them want to take a second look at Geovany Chavez.
And it appears to me that if they had cleared him back in summer of 1983 that it must have
Page 1743
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Been some additional information inculpating Geovany Chavez to make then want to take a second look. And we - - if they have that document, we would request it. We have not seen that.
For instance, in January of 1986 they asked for blood and semen tests of all the other suspects in the case, and so that, to my mind, makes it appear that there must have been some additional Brady material in existence in January of 1986 that perhaps Ms. Sipes and I have not been privy to.
MR. MOODY: Your Honor, my recollection on that point was - - I think in January of ’86 Gary Richardson was the attorney at the time. The Court had set the trial date for February or March of that year. WE were anticipating getting ready to go to trial and that’s, you know, like in any case when I’m anticipating getting ready to go to trial, we start to, you know, tie up some of the loose ends, get some of the questions that may have not been answered by the police department or by the arresting agency.
And that was in part of my review of the file. IT was a question in my mind as to his - - as to him being a suspect. And I felt that Mr. Richardson would probably bring him up as a suspect or might well do so, and that’s why I wanted the test
Page 1744
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
done, and for no other reason.
There were no documents of that. I mean, I don’t customarily make documents between myself and the police department on requests that I make. You know, their information is put down in supplements, and there is nothing in any supplement that they have given us or any notebook that we have looked at or anything that would indicate anything otherwise. And that’s just a simple matter of us getting ready for a trial.
And as I have told the defense, there are a few things we are going to do in anticipation of this trial and as we find some of those things out, I will let them know what we find out, good or bad.
THE COURT: Mr. Moody, have all the test results. Whether it be blood or semen tests or fingerprint tests, have those all been turned over to the defendant - - to the defense attorneys?
MR. MOODY: TO my knowledge, they have. To my knowledge, everything we have has been turned over to them. There was a question at one time about, I think, Ricardo Ramirez, the nightstalker. There has been a question whether or not those prints had been compared. And I think we found the supplement - - Did we find that? In all the supplements we gave you,
Page 1745
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
that showed that he had been compared and his prints did not match.
We have got some additional information that I have told the defense about last week. We ran some more fingerprints on some other people and those are presently being compared. As soon as those are finished being compared, those results will be turned over, plus, you know, their own independent expert can come in and look at that material and if they come up with a different opinion than our experts, well, then, that’s fine.
THE COURT: Mr. Ponton, what - - are you satisfied that you have received the test results for blood and semen and also for any fingerprints that they may have? Have you received all that, to your knowledge?
MR. PONTON: To my knowledge, we have, Your Honor. As I stated in the motion, however, you know, I’m a little reluctant to state unequivocally that I have so received that because of the fact that if they had something that suddenly showed a fingerprint of somebody at that site, from what Mr. Moody says I don’t know if he is going to give that to me now or if he is going to wait until halfway through our case or something.
Page 1746
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
And so I believe Mr. Moody when he says he has given me everything, but on the other hand, he didn’t give me some things in the past that I think at the time he knew were Brady discovery type materials. So it makes me just a little hesitant to give a firm answer to the Court.
Not doubting your word there, Mr. Moody, but it’s just the track record here belies the - - your Constitutional duty here.
MR. MOODY: There are certain things in the file - - As the defense is well aware, it’s a very extensive file. And I don’t know. They - - At this point they may have read every document and looked at every videotape and every audiotape. I can assure them that I have not. There are things in this file that I have not seen because it’s so voluminous. That’s why we made the exception here in this case to give them everything so that, you know, in case I have missed something, either missed something or have not looked at something that at least they will have an opportunity to look at it.
They have been working, I’m sure, very dutifully on going through it, and I can tell from their motions and their preparation of trial that they have been reading, you know, the stuff that we
Page 1747
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Have been giving them. So we are giving them everything we have.
The problem with the notebooks, there were some things in the notebooks that, I mean, I haven’t read a lot of the stuff in this box. The stuff that was in there, I hadn’t gotten around to it at the time that came up. As soon as I would have read it and if I would have seen it, I would have told them about it if it really looked exculpatory. But I hadn’t read it at that time.
As we develop anything, like I have told the defense and I have told the Court, if we develop anything between now and the time of trial, we will turn it over as soon as we get it or within a day or, you know, as soon as I can reasonably get it into a written form and to them, we will do it.
THE COURT: It seems to me, Mr. Ponton, that rather than to deny your motion at this time, I’m going to take your motion under advisement for the sole purpose to find out what we find out throughout the course of this hearing. If there are going to be some things I don’t - - I think that you may find some things that in talking to people on the witness stand that you didn’t know. I have no idea.
But I’m going to instruct the state again
Page 1748
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
That they are to turn to the defendants any and all material that would be covered under Brady, under the Brady motion file, If there is any exculpatory statements, anything exculpatory in the file that you feel like may - - may not be exculpatory or it might be, if it has a chance and you don’t want to turn it over, you bring it to me and let me look at it.
But I don’t want to get involved in the trial of this lawsuit and having the state in the middle of the trial say, “Oh, my goodness. Here is something that we didn’t turn over that might be of help to you,” because someone on the witness stand brought it up and said, well, I made a statement or I had this and then we suddenly find it.
I don’t want that to happen. Because if that happens, you see, there is only one or two things we can do. At that point in time we would have to dismiss the case possibly or we would have to stop in the middle of the trial, give the defendant’s attorneys the right to go out and investigate, if indeed they needed to investigate whatever it was, and that would then again take up more time.
So let’s see if we can’t get it all to them so we won’t have a problem when this case goes to trial.
Page 1749
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Mr. Ponton - -
MR. PONTON: Yes, Your Honor.
THE COURT: - - some months ago I told you if you wanted to you could go through these files. Now, then, it seems to me like you have had ample opportunity to go through them. Are there files that you have not gone through?
MR. PONTON. Your Honor, there are files I have not gone through. However, I would have to say that to my knowledge there are not files that I have not been given access to. There may be, but the case is so voluminous, Your Honor, that through a great deal of effort, I think Ms. Sipes and I have been through almost all the files.
But I just could not tell you I have been thorough everything. I have tried to, but I haven’t. And I am continuing to go through a new files as the case progresses.
THE COURT: Is there anything at this time that you know exists or that you have a deep feeling exists that you think you ought to have or have copies of or you ought to know about that the state has?
MR. PONTON: The reason why Geovany Chavez was a suspect in ’83 and the reason why he was enough
Page 1750
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Of a suspect 15 months later that he would be redetained and have his blood and semen taken.
And the other thing, Your Honor, is a matter which has previously been before the Court which is the initial statement given by Dawn Russell, the granddaughter of the victim in this case, which seemingly has disappeared from not only the district attorney’s file but from the police department’s files and from the police department’s files and from the police department’s computer. And yet she was a suspect in this case, may yet remain one, for all I know.
I don’t know what additional leads may have been developed, but the initial statement given by her has disappeared. I know that Ms. Pennock made a good search for it, she told me, up at the police department.
But those are the two things that we specifically have knowledge of at this time that we do not have in our possession that the state either would have in their possession now or did have in their possession at one time, Your honor.
THE COURT: Well, has anybody explained to you why that particular statement is not with us?
MR. PONTON: I believe that Ms. Pennock said that it just could not be found.
Page 1751
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
MR. MOODY: There has been two explanations, Your Honor. One is that - - well, first of all, we have looked through the file and we have gone through everything, not just our copy of the file but the police department copy of the file, and there is no indication that there is such a statement. The only thing that gives you the indication is that her second statement - - her statement says, “This is my second statement.”
The defense has had an opportunity to depose Miss Russell and they have. She has, in stating, I believe at her deposition, that there really and truly may be the only statement that she ever gave was this, what is now called, “My second statement.”
So I mean, I don’t know. It’s either number one, there really is no, quote, first statement, or if there is, it has been lost, you know. We have not been able to find it.
THE COURT: Well, I’ll accept the lost statement. I have no reason to believe that if the young lady said she made a prior statement, she didn’t make it. You know, she said she made two statements, then I think that the young lady made two statements. I’m not going to question her veracity at this time.
Page 1752
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
MR. MOODY: Well, okay. Well, that’s fine. But like I said, it’s - -
THE COURT: But I will accept the excuse that it’s lost at this time. You know, this case is a little - - it’s a little unusual from the very beginning of the case.
But, anyway, Mr. Ponton, do you want to address the Court?
MR. PONTON: That’s all, if Mr. Moody has no other explanation for his second look at Geovany Chavez in January of 1986.
MR. MOODY: I have already given the court that response.
THE COURT: Well, then, I’m not going - - I will not rule on your motion at this time. I will not deny your motion. We will just see what happens. We will take it under advisement at this particular time. I will direct the state to turn over any and all exculpatory evidence that they have in their possession.
Now, then, Mr. Moody, I want you to understand this. If you get some exculpatory evidence that you have never seen or heard of, then, of course, you would turn it over at that time. But I’m certainly not holding you to turn over
Page 1753
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
exculpatory evidence that you don’t have.
MR. MOODY: I understand.
THE COURT: But I understand that you will turn over everything you have in your files that are exculpatory and of I were you, I would again ask the detectives, Mr. Apodaca, who investigated this case, and Mr. Perez, I would ask both of those gentlemen if they know of any evidence or any statement or any videos by anybody, whether they have it in their possession or another police officer has it or if anybody that they know of has any exculpatory evidence, I would request that you ask them to please bring it to you so you can look into it.
Certainly all of us, not only the state and the defendant but all of us are trying to get to the truth of this matter. We are not trying to withhold anything from anybody. We just want the truth.
MR. MOODY: Thank you, Your Honor. I understand.
THE COURT: All right, Mr. Ponton?
MR. PONTON: Yes, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Are you ready to proceed with your evidence in this case?
MR. PONTON: I am, Your Honor. But the next witness that the defense will call in support of
Page 1754
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Their motion to suppress the confessions in this case will be the defendant, henry Lee Lucas.
But prior to him testifying, I would like to go through with the Court what the law - -what I consider to be the law and what Mr. Lucas’ rights are under the Fifth Amendment to the United States Constitution.
THE COURT: Go right ahead.
MR. PONTON: Under Article 1, Section 10, I have a case here, your Honor, called Lindley versus State and I have given a copy of it to the state.
May I approach the bench, Your Honor?
THE COURT: You may.
MR. PONTON: I have marked in red there that the defendant has the right to testify in a limited capacity at a hearing to suppress confessions.
THE COURT: All right. Go ahead.
MR. PONTON: And then another case I have tendered to Your Honor right here is Blackman versus State and Blackman versus State states that when a defendant testifies even before a jury he has a right to invoke his Fifth Amendment privilege not to testify as to extraneous matters that he might be accused of or have some potential liability. And I believe that that privilege, Your Honor, would
Page 1755
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Continue until such time as all potential liability is extinguished.
And the reason I’m bringing these cases to the court’s attention is that we propose to ask the defendant certain questions in this case regarding the voluntariness of his confessions in this case, the voluntariness of the confessions he gave in the case regarding Librada Apodaca. In that cause, Your Honor, the Supreme Court tells us that the standard to use in determining the voluntariness of a confession is the totality of the circumstances, and in that regard, the totality of the circumstances under which Mr. Lucas gave this confession are inextricably intertwined with his involvement with the Lucas task force and the Texas Rangers.
I believe this Court has already heard testimony that every time he came to El Paso to confess, he was in the company of the Texas Rangers. He would land ere at the airport in the King Aire and be accompanied by them everywhere he went, even to restaurants. Therefore, what I’m proffering to the Court is that we intend to ask the defendant questions about his confessions here and certain of the methods in which he was treated by the Texas Ranger task force.
Page 1756
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
What we do not propose to ask him, Your Honor, is whether - - is to go into the facts of his guilt or innocence in this case or his guilt or innocence in many of the other cases in which he is accused.
The - - This whole file here, Your Honor, if I could approach the bench, I’ll just let Your Honor thumb through it if you want to. This consists of teletypes of all pending cases against henry Lucas from which the cases are still open. And as the Court can see it’s - - I don’t even have a complete number, but it’s numerous.
And as the Court has already heard in this case, Mr. Lucas has given confessions implicating himself in - - probably in excess of 300 case. So therefore I submit, Your Honor, for Mr. Lucas to be cross-examined by the state on his guilt or innocence in this or other cases would violate his Fifth Amendment right not to testify against himself, and I intend to try to trim the line to where we don’t open the door to those matters, your Honor. And if doors were opened, of course, the Court would then have to make such ruling at that time.
But at this time I would like to put the defendant on the stand subject to the ruling of the
Page 1757
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Court that the state would not be allowed to go into matters concerning the facts of offenses and the guilt or innocence of the defendant in other offenses because for them to do so would violate his Fifth Amendment right not to testify against himself and his Article 1, Section 10, right under the Texas Constitution not to testify against himself.
And I believe that for the defendant to testify on the voluntariness of the confessions does not open the door to those matters going to the guilt of the accused in this or other cases, so I would ask that the Court rule on that prior to the defendant taking the stand.
MR. MOODY: Well, Your Honor, you know, the defense has contended all through these hearings that this is an unusual case, a case of first impression, a case where a defendant has confessed to multiple confessions. He is again stating his argument here that they are all intertwined, that they are all part of the totality of the entire circumstances. It has been under that ideal that I think the Court has allowed the defense to question all of the state’s witnesses about these issues of other cases.
Now, to some degree they have limited that question and properly so. We have tried to stick to
Page 1758
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
The basic nature of this case, but the defense has on many occasions - - on occasions gone far afield into the issue of henry Lucas’ confessions in other areas, and not to put him on the witness stand and to ask him only about El Paso while he can sit there and hold press conferences and say, “I have never killed nobody except my mama and that was an accident,” and he can keep blurting that out, “I have an alibi to every case that happened,” and make all these press statements and put all that out and come on the witness stand and say, “I don’t want to talk about any of that under cross-examination. All I want to do is just contend my innocence,” I can’t see any Fifth Amendment right he has anymore.
He said he didn’t do anything, didn’t kill anybody nut his mama. But I want to know if all these people framed him, how did they frame him and why did they frame him in several of these other cases so maybe we can get to the truth of the matter.
Justice is what we seek. And yet on the other hand, truth is what they seek, yet they don’t’ want Henry to stand up and talk about his other cases which are supposedly, under their theory, so intertwined with all of this that we have to hear all these months. I would just rather have heard the El
Page 1759
Paso case and that was it, it could go away.
But, you know, they are the ones that wanted to bring in the totality of everything else and they have, and so now I don’t think they can limit it. They have opened the door if he takes the stand for those purposes and we are going to ask the Court for a full cross-examination on these issues. I can’t see any reversible harm, since he doesn’t want to testify in the trial in chief, just because he says something here on the stand he doesn’t have the ability to testify. So I don’t see what harm could be done even if the Court did allow us to cross-examine him in those areas.
THE COURT: Well, Mr. Moody, wouldn’t it be harm is he under oath here in the courtroom testified that he had indeed committed a crime that you nor I nor anyone else knew about it, just blurted it out? Wouldn’t that be harm for him?
MR. MOODY: Well, it could be. But he has been saying all along he hasn’t killed anybody but his mama.
THE COURT: I understand that. And I further understand that this is the first time in some two years that Mr. Lucas has had an attorney’s advice on anything that he did. He had an attorney’s
Page 1760
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Advice in Georgetown, Texas, for that year and a half - - for a year and a half. Even though he was told he could have a lawyer, no lawyer was presented to him. He turned it down. He did not want a lawyer, so I’m told.
But he does indeed today have lawyers. I’m going to rule that Mr. Lucas can take the witness stand and he can testify, and his testimony and the cross-examination will be limited to how this confession was taken.
One of the main reasons for that is if I allowed the state of the defense to go into every confession of every crime that Mr. Lucas has been accused of, as Officer Prince testified, he investigated over 5,000 took him well over a year. I don’t have a year. I don’t think any of us do.
MR. MOODY: Right.
THE COURT: We have got to find out how any other confession had - - what it had to do with this confession. I’m not going to open it up to everything. I’m going to limit it. I’m not going to allow questions, Mr. Lucas, did you commit this crime, did you commit that crime? That’s not what we are talking about.
MR. MOODY: No, Your Honor. I wouldn’t ask
Page 1761
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Him in those manners. I’m not going to ask the question in that manner. I’m not going to ask him a single question, never intended to ask him did he kill all these 162 people. But I just want to know like in a case in another county, well, who framed him there? I mean, who did it to him? If he is saying that these people, that these law enforcement agents all across the country conspired to get him - -
THE COURT: Let me - -
MR. MOODY: - - and it’s part of their defense that they are out to get him, well, let’s hear from him.
THE COURT: Let me say this to you, Mr. Moody. I am not - -If that particular problem comes up after Mr. Ponton has put him on and he’s limited - - Mr. Ponton - - as I said, to this confession, if indeed you feel like you have some confessions that he has talked about to these policemen that would benefit you without asking him, now, did you do this, then you and I and Mr. Ponton will talk about it and then we will talk about whether or not you will be allowed to ask those questions.
So I’m not going to preclude you at this time, but I will certainly - - you keep a close eye on it and I’ll keep a close eye on it and we will see
Page 1762
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Whether or not that is necessary in order to help you with your case.
I’m not going to say you can’t ask the questions because I’m not going to limit you any more than I would like to have the case limited. I want the case limited to this confession, Mr. Ponton, if I possibly can.
See, we are not talking about anything other than this. We are talking about the suppression of the confessions that Henry Lucas made in El Paso and Sierra Blanca and Odessa, in Marathon or whatever. That’s what we are talking about. And if we could get to that issue, there is no telling how soon we could get to the trial of this case, It might just surprise everybody. But we need to get to the issue.
MR. PONTON: Yes, Your Honor.
THE COURT: If you will try to do that for me, I’ll try to keep everything within certain bounds. Now, if it looks like we are getting out of bounds, let’s make an objection and you can either approach the bench or whatever you would like concerning that.
Mr. Moody, I’m not going to limit you except that I will limit the examination of Mr. Lucas to this particular problem that we have before us, which is the suppression of the confession here in El Paso.
Page 1763
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
MR. MOODY: All right. Thank you, Your Honor.
THE COURT: And I think we might further say that any, you know, we get into this thing, we will limit - - we will limit that.
Now, Mr. Ponton, you’re going to have a burden that seems to me like if Mr. Lucas starts getting involved in other things, it’s going to be your burden to stop him. You understand me?
MR. PONTON: Yes, Your Honor.
THE COURT: I’m not going to stop him. It’s not my problem. So I’m going to leave that up to you-all. So if you-all let him go, he’s gone. Now, you’re going to have to make the objection. I’m not going to make the objection.
MR. PONTON: I am, Your Honor. The - - I want to explain to the Court before I begin that I am not going to try to go into the detail of everything Mr. Lucas did from when he was arrested in June of ’83 until the present time. However, I do feel that I have a duty to go into certain matters that happened while Mr. Lucas was with the task force that go to his voluntariness of this confession in this case.
THE COURT: Mr. Ponton, and I have opened that up to you and you may certainly go into that and
Page 1764
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Editor's note: this is the official transcript and it runs verbatim, as the archive's rule for court records requires; nothing has been summarised or cut. Bob Prince commanded the Lucas Task Force at Georgetown and was the officer most responsible for the system under which Lucas confessed to hundreds of killings across the country; his account of that system is here. The pages that follow this article, 1765 to 2094, are Lucas’s own testimony and are already published. This archive records Henry Lee Lucas with eleven convictions, around three of them regarded as credible, against some six hundred confessions; the questioning in these pages is part of the mechanism by which that gap opened. It belongs to the El Paso County case and the 120th Judicial District, not to the Clay County trial already published as TRANSCRIPTS FROM THE TRIAL OF HENRY LEE LUCAS. Nothing said under oath in a transcript is a finding of fact, and Lucas in particular said a great many things that were not true.