By Christi Punteney
The El Paso County hearing continues, transcribed from the official record: the testimony of Detective Edward Uribe, the testimony of Sergeant Jimmy Apodaca in two parts with a statement of facts between them, and the grand jury testimony of Greg Lucas. It runs verbatim. Pages 1001 to 1274.
THE COURT: Please raise your right hand, sir.
EDWARD URIBE,
Having been duly sworn by the Court to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, was examined and testified as follows:
BY MR. MOODY:
Q. Would you state your name, sir?
A. Edward Uribe.
Q. And how are you employed?
A. Detective with the El Paso Police Department, crimes against persons, the robbery section.
Q. How long have you been an El Paso officer?
A. 21 years, seven months.
Q. How long have you worked in the crimes against persons division in the El Paso Police Department?
A. Four Years.
Q. When the case regarding Librada Apodaca’s murder began with the police going to her home, discovering her body there on the 28th day of May, 1983, were you involved in the case at its inception?
A. I was not.
Page 1001
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Q. When did you first become involved in the Librada Apodaca case?
A. The following Tuesday after that Saturday.
Q. For the next - - From that time period, I guess, June ’83 through October 25th, 1984, the date Henry Lucas was indicted for the death of Librada Apodaca, what was your primary function in the Librada Apodaca, what was your primary function in the Librada Apodaca investigation?
A. I was more or less a supporting role - - I worked the supporting role for Detective Perez and assisted him in the investigation.
Q. Whenever he would need some help?
A. Right.
Q. You also had your - - constantly you had your other robberies and different things that you were working on?
A. I did.
Q. Did you ever just continually work on the Librada Apodaca case for all that period of time?
A. No, not continuously. We had other cases we worked and we had the regular robberies that we do have during that period of time.
Q. So more or less you worked off and on on the Librada Apodaca case as it was necessary?
A. That is correct, sir.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Q. That was the primarily when Detective Perez requested you to do something?
A. Right. Or if we had to bring somebody in to be interviewed, go with them or sometimes be present when he did interview them, assisted him in checking out information that we did receive.
Q. You were one of the three El Paso police officers who had a great deal of knowledge about the Librada Apodaca case. Is that correct.
A. Not - -
Q. As far as - - I mean, more than the other officer?
A. Yes.
Q. You typified you knew less that Benny?
A. Right.
Q. Did you ever pass on any information regarding the Librada Apodaca death to Lieutenant Jerry Smith of the Odessa Police Department?
A. No, sir, I did not.
Q. Did you ever speak to him?
A. I believe I did talk to him a couple of times when he called. He would call for Benny when he did call.
Q. That was after the September 20th confession at times when you were calling to get his copies
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
of tapes and that type of material?
Right.
Q. Asking for a statement from him?
A. Either Sergeant Apodaca or Benito.
Q. Did you ever give anyone the inside information of the Henry Lucas case?
A. No, sir, I did not.
Q. One of the things that you got involved in regarding the Henry Lucas investigation was the - - a trip on the 20th of September, 1984?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you recall that?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You had - - Had you gone to Sierra Blanca the day previous with Benny Perez and Sergeant Apodaca?
A. No, sir, I did not.
Q. So you were not - - you would not have been present and listened to that interview?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did you - - In fact, were you at the airport the next day on September 20th when Henry Lucas arrived in El Paso?
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Yes, sir, I was.
Q. And who were you with? A. I was with Detective Perez.
Q. Where did you-all go after the aircraft arrived around noon, sometime around noon to 1:00 time frame?
A. We did go to Forti’s restaurant.
Q. Did you - - After going to lunch, where did you go?
A. We returned to the Chevron station on Gateway.
Q. Why did you go there?
A. We had asked Henry Lucas where he wanted to start from, and he mentioned the truck stop.
Q. So that would be - - the starting reference point would be the Chevron truck stop at, what is that, 6666 Gateway - -
A. East.
Q. East. Now, either prior to getting to the Chevron truck stop or when you first arrived at the Chevron truck stop, did you read Henry Lucas his Miranda warnings?
A. Yes, sir. On the way out there I was in the back seat in the right rear and I did advise him of his rights. He did advise that he understood his
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
rights.
Q. And the rights that you read him, were they read off of a standard Miranda warning card?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. I think I have a sample of one here. Was it a card just like that?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right. And just for the record, would you read those rights that you read to Henry Lucas that afternoon?
A. “You have the right to have a lawyer present to advise you either prior to any questioning or during any questioning. If you’re unable to employ a lawyer, you have the right to have a lawyer appointed to counsel with you prior to or during any questioning. And you have the right to remain silent and not make any statement at all and that any statement you make may and probably will be used as evidence against you at your trial and that any statement may be used as evidence against you in court. You have the right to terminate the interview at any time.”
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Q. All right. After warning him of those rights did you ask him if he understood those rights?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And how did he respond to that?
A. He said he did.
Q. And after stating he understood those rights did you ask him if he wanted to waive or give up those rights, and take you-all to the scene of this crime?
A. He said he did and he knew his rights by heart.
Q. Did he ever request an attorney present?
A. No, sir.
Q. And the purpose of him coming to El Paso that day was to see if he could actually find the Librada Apodaca crime scene?
A. That is correct, sir.
Q. Now, what was your job on this trip in the vehicle with Detective Perez, yourself, Henry Lucas, and I believe, what, Clayton Smith?
A. One of my main concerns was for the safety of Detective Perez and, of course, to watch Henry Lee just in case he did try to make a move to escape. And then the other is to take notes as to the area we were going into, the route we took.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Q. You were sitting on the right rear?
A. Right, sir.
Q. Now, did - - In fact, if Henry Lucas would have tried to leave the vehicle, would you have been the first person that would have an opportunity to exit the vehicle on the same side as he was on?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Then did - - Upon leaving the truck stop, where did - - how did the trip go from there?
A. We continued from the truck stop eastbound on Interstate 10. Lucas had advised us it would be about the fourth of fifth main exit after the truck stop where we would be making the right turn.
We continued east on Interstate 10 East until we approached the Lomaland exit. At that exit he advised to go ahead and get off the freeway and make a right.
We headed south on Lomaland and Lucas kept looking around to see if he could familiarize himself or see if he recognized anything that he might have seen prior. We continued all the way past Loma Terrace School, and at this time when we were going by the school, he says, “Let’s go back to the interstate. This ain’t the right one.”
We made a U-turn there at Lomaland and went
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Back up to I-10 East. At that point - -
Q. It took him a fair distance, then, going down Lomaland to realize he was in the wrong area?
A. Right, sir.
Q. Did you-all indicate to him in any way that he was in the wrong area?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did you slow the car down or stop the car?
A. No, sir. As a matter of fact, Detective Perez, once we got back up on I-10 East, we continued east. And at this point, Detective Perez asked him if he wanted to get up on I-10 or stay on the access road and he advised, “No, go ahead and stay on the access road.”
And at one point Detective Perez asked him if he was going the right speed and he said, “Yeah, you’re in the right speed.” It was approximately 50 miles an hour.
Q. Now, when you got to the intersection of Zaragoza Road or even prior to that, what was Henry Lucas doing in the car as you were driving?
A. He would look around, try to recognize, I guess, buildings in the area he was in. And we continued all the way until we got up to close to Zaragoza, and then he advised to go ahead and make a
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Right turn. As we made the right turn south on Zaragoza, he mentioned the fact that that’s the filling station he had - - he was talking about. And he says, “But it looks different.” And the Texaco station has been remodeled or had been remodeled from the time period of ’83 to the time period when we went by.
He then noticed a Good Time Store approximately one block or half a block from the station. He says, “That’s the mini-mart I was talking about.”
We continued south on Zaragoza and again he kept looking around. As we approached the railroad tracks, he says, “There is the railroad tracks I was talking about.”
Q. Okay. Hold on a second before we go into the railroad tracks. And these are the railroad tracks that cross Zaragoza past North Loop but before you get to Alameda?
A. Right. Just north of Roseway.
(State’s exhibit marked, S-8.)
Q. (BY MR. MOODY) I show you what is marked as State’s Exhibit 8. Is that the railroad tracks that you’re referring to approximately at Roseway and Zaragoza?
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Right. This is looking from the south. You would be coming in from the other direction.
Q. You-all were coming in from the north, but that is the railroad tracks there?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right. Then, after going by the railroad tracks, what happened?
A. He advised to go ahead and continue heading south. We continued heading south and just followed Zaragoza all the way down to Alameda, past Alameda, continued south on Zaragoza past - -
Q. Did you go - -
A. Past - -
Q. Now, by this time you had actually gone by the cutoff that would lead you to Irma Road. Is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you-all in any way indicate the Henry Lucas that he was going too far?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did you keep on going?
A. Right.
Q. Went across Alameda and where did you proceed to?
A. We passed the cemetery or adjacent to the - -
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Or next to the cemetery is the projects. We passed the projects. Then he had advised we had gone too far. Let’s go back to the railroad tracks. We made a U-turn just past the cemetery and continued north on Zaragoza back towards the railroad tracks.
Again during this time Detective Perez asked him if we were going too fast and he advised, “No, you’re going the right speed,” and again kept looking around to see if he recognized anything.
Q. When you got up in the area near the railroad tracks, what happened? A. He advised to go ahead and make a right turn on the first street past - - or before we get to the railroad tracks. We made a right turn on Roseway.
Q. Okay. And you then proceeded on Roseway and what happened on Roseway?
A. We continued on Roseway. And at this point, he mentions the tin buildings that he mentioned prior to Detective Perez. And - -
Q. What was his comment directly about that?
A. “Those are the tin buildings I told you about.”
Q. Okay. And approximately how far are these tin buildings on Roseway in maybe a straight line distance to the home of Librada Apodaca?
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
I’d say approximately five city blocks.
Q. Not too far away?
A. No, sir.
(State’s exhibit marked, S-9.)
Q. (BY MR. MOODY) And is this - - I show you a photograph, State’s Exhibit Number 9. Is that a photograph of some of the tin buildings - -
A. Yes, sir, they are.
Q. - - that Henry Lucas referred to?
A. Right, sir. They are on the north side of Roseway.
Q. Then after pointing out the tin buildings to you, did he point anything else out?
A. We continued on Roseway, and as we were approaching Presa he says, “We’ve gone too far. It’s to the right.” And he indicated with his hand to the right rear. We made a left turn on Presa and he says. “We have gone too far.”
As we approached Leonardo, he said, “Go ahead and make a right turn.” And as we made the right turn, he says, “Go ahead and pull over. Let me think for - - Let me think for a few seconds.”
We pulled over approximately 30 feet, 40 feet from the intersection, and Detective Perez just stopped the car. And Lucas brought up his hands to
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
His head with a motion placing his hands to his head like if he was thinking.
Then you could see the traffic on Zaragoza. And he says, “Let’s go back to the railroad tracks.” We continued on Leonardo all the way to Candelaria, made a right turn on Candelaria, a left turn on Roseway.
As we approached Zaragoza again he says, “Go ahead and make a left turn at Zaragoza and make a left turn right past the canal.”
Q. Okay.
A. Which he had mentioned before.
Q. When you were back on Roseway, did he ever mention anything about any pipes?
A. Yes. Now that you mention it, he did mention some pipes next to the tin buildings.
(State’s exhibit marked, S-10.)
Q. (BY MR. MOODY) I show you what’s been marked for identification purposes as State’s Exhibit Number 10. Are those the cement pipes that you were just referring to? A. Right sir.
Q. What did he comment about those pipes?
A. That he had mentioned those in - - to Detective Perez and Sergeant Apodaca.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Q. The day before? A. Right, in Sierra Blanca.
Q. Okay. Now, the canal that you mentioned, did Henry Lucas make any reference to the canal as you approached it?
A. That’s when he mentioned that he thought that canal was the river, and that was the river he was talking about.
Q. And on that day that you were - - September 20th, was the canal full that day?
A. No, sir, it was not.
Q. How full was it?
A. I don’t think there was any water at all. If I recall, there was no water at all.
Q. So then after going - - Let’s see. He told you to turn where, now, as you were approaching the canal?
A. The first street past the canal, which would be Old Pueblo.
Q. The first street past or the first street prior to?
A. Past the canal.
Q. Which way did he want you to turn?
A. Make a left.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Q. Make a left?
A. Right, sir.
Q. All right. Did you-all do so?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What area did you go into then?
A. We went into the area of Old Pueblo and Irma, Irma Place.
Q. In regards to when you made the turn, the left on Old Pueblo, how did Henry Lucas react as you started going down Old Pueblo which is kind of a winding street, is it not?
A. Right. He again continued looking around and started to familiarize himself.
Q. Was he looking for anything in particular that he was mentioning?
A. He did mention that - - I don’t know if it was at that time or later on, but he did mention that he was looking for a fence, a wooden picket fence that he recalled.
Q. What happened next?
A. We continued south on Old Pueblo, and he suddenly turned to a house that is on Old Pueblo. And Detective Perez advised or asked him if he wanted us to stop.
And he says, “No, not really. That looks
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
similar
to - -that house there looks similar to the house we were looking for only it’s got a carport to the left of it.” The house that he was looking at did not have a carport.
Q. After going through or after looking at that house that looked to Henry Lucas like something like the house that he was looking for, what happened next?
A. We continued all the way to the intersection of Old Pueblo, Candelaria and Alameda. And at this time he says, “Go ahead and make another U-turn.” And it’s - - Well, two streets run into Alameda at that point, so we went ahead and made a U-turn and came up Old Pueblo.
And then he says, “Go ahead and make a right.” There is a vacant lot next to that house he had looked at before.
Detective Perez then asked him if he wanted to stop. And he says, “No, just go ahead and continue straight.” And we went up to Candelaria, made a left turn on Candelaria, went across the canal. And he says, “No, go ahead and make a U-turn.”
We made a U-turn at Zaragoza and San Fernando. We continued again south on Candelaria, went through that vacant lot again and he says, “Go
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Ahead and stop for a few - - for a few seconds.”
We stopped there for a few seconds and Detective Perez asked him, “Do you want me to - - Do you want to go down and look around?” And he says, “No, let’s just wait a few seconds.”
Q. This vacant lot, is this the area where there used to be a bus terminal?
A. I believe so. It used to be the garage for - -
Q. The garage for buses?
A. The old lower valley bus - -
Q. It’s a fairly large vacant lot?
A. Yeah, right.
Q. And how far is that from the crime scene?
A. It’s approximately half a block from Irma Place and then about a block to the address.
Q. So Henry Lucas, after asking to stop there, looked around for awhile and then what happened?
A. Then he said, “Let’s go back to the railroad tracks.” As we started to make a right turn, he said, “Go ahead and make a right turn here,” which would be Irma Place. We - -
Q. You were going back down Old Pueblo to connect up with Alameda?
A. No. We made a right turn to - -
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Q. To go back to - - not to Alameda. I mean, to Zaragoza to go back to the railroad tracks?
A. Right.
Q. Okay. And as you approached Irma place, what did the defendant tell you?
A. He said to go ahead and make a right turn on Irma Place. We went into Irma Place.
Q. Okay. Hold on one second there before we continue.
(State’s exhibit, marked, S-11.)
Q. (BY MR. MOODY) I show you what has been marked as State’s Exhibit 11 and is this Old Pueblo Road and Irma Place?
A. Right, sir.
Q. And looking from the direction that the photograph is being taken, was this the direction you were heading back towards Zaragoza when Henry Lucas asked you to turn on Irma Place?
A. Right, sir.
Q. So you made a right-hand turn there on Irma Place?
A. Right.
Q. Which is a dead-end street, is it not?
A. Yes, sir.
(State’s exhibit marked, S-12.)
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Q. (BY MR. MOODY) I show you now what has been marked as State’s Exhibit 12. After making the right-hand turn onto Irma Place, is this a photograph of how it would look looking down Irma Place toward the dead-end area? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Then what happened?
A. We continued into Irma Place. And as we got to the end, we made a U-turn and we stopped for a few seconds, then we continued back out from Irma Place. We got to Old Pueblo - -
Q. Did you-all in any way indicate to Henry Lucas at that time that the Apodaca residence was right there, I mean, near the end of the U-turn?
A. No, sir.
Q. SO then you made the U-turn that you had to make to get out of there?
A. Right, sir.
Q. Did you come back out Irma Place?
A. We came out Irma Place. We got to Old Pueblo.
Q. Where did you go there?
A. And then we went to the left. He advised to go ahead and take a left turn. We went down Old Pueblo, through the vacant lot again, back on
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Candelaria.
Q. was this at his direction?
A. Right, sir.
Q. Okay.
A. We went past the canal and he said, “Go ahead and make a left turn at the canal.” You can only - - You can only make a left turn on the road on the north side of the canal, so we made a left turn alongside of the canal and we continued on that little road on the north side of the canal.
Q. That is the canal that the back of Mrs. Apodaca’s home faces?
A. That is correct, sir.
Q. Is that correct? Was any comment made by anyone in the vehicle that the Apodaca home was on the other side of the canal?
A. No, sir.
Q. Then what happened?
A. As we approached the intersection of the canal or that road right next to the canal and Zaragoza, you could see the traffic on Sunland Road - - or correction - - on Pendale Road. And he says, “Let’s go over there where all that traffic is at.”
We made a right turn on Zaragoza, a left turn on Sunland. We went all the way to Pendale,
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Made a left turn on Pendale. And again during this period of time Henry kept looking around to see if he could recognize anything.
Q. Was Henry Lucas the one that was directing Detective Perez where to turn at this point, also?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Then where did you-all proceed?
A. We made a left turn on Pendale to Old County, again made a left turn on Borunda to Teodoso, another left on Teodoso to Leonardo, made a U-turn back on Teodoso up to Zaragoza.
Q. Going through all these areas that you had been through, were there numerous homes in this area?
A. Yes, sir. Yes, there were.
Q. And were all of them - - were many of them basically adobe type homes?
A. Not really. A lot of them are stucco, adobe, but there are some other homes, cinder block, I guess.
Q. All different types of homes? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was there anything that Henry Lucas was commenting about as you were driving through this area, anything he was looking for, what he was trying to home in on?
A. As far as I could see, he was looking for
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
that picket fence, that wooden picket fence he had mentioned.
Q. Okay. Then what happened?
A. As we got to Teodoso and Zaragoza, he says, “Go ahead and make a left turn and a right turn,” which again would lead us to Old Pueblo.
Q. So you got - - he told you to turn left onto Zaragoza?
A. Right.
Q. Which you did?
A. Right.
Q. After driving just a very short distance, he told you to make another right?
A. Right.
Q. Which again took you back to Old Pueblo Road?
A. Right, sir.
Q. Then what happened?
A. As we approached Irma, he again kept looking around. And at this point, he says, “Why don’t you go ahead and pull over?”
We pulled over, and which we were approximately, I’d say, 20 or 30 feet from Irma Place. And then he said - - Detective Perez, I believe, said, “DO you want to get out of the car?”
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
And he said, “Yeah, let’s go ahead and get out of the car.”
We got out of the car, and at this time he started looking around and started walking across the street. As we walked across the street, there is only - - I think there is only one house, empty lot and then the next house, and then we started walking down that empty lot.
He says, “This is the alley I was referring to.” And we continued walking through the vacant lot area. A couple of dogs came at us and he made the comment, “Don’t worry about it. He won’t hurt you. He won’t bite.” And we just kept walking. He was leading the way all the way.
And we got up to the - - we got up close to the area of the house and he stopped and he just kept looking around. And that’s when he made the comment, “This is the house. That’s the bedroom over there,” sort of pointing to the right. He says, “That’s the back door.” And we just stood around for a little while. And that’s when - -
Q. Was he pointing out different things from the outside?
A. Yes. He had pointed to the area of the - - it would be the right side of the house which he
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
mentions was - - mentioned was the bedroom.
And then when he pointed to the left he mentioned or he pointed towards - - to the kitchen door, the rear door.
Q. Did you-all have a chance or an opportunity to enter the home? A. Yes, sir, we did.
Q. When was that?
A. While there, a little girl shows up at the house and we see her opening a window, going through the window. Then Sergeant Apodaca goes and talks to the little girl, we make a phone call and the mother of the little girl shows up.
Q. Did the mother let you-all inside the house?
A. Yes, sir, she did.
Q. Did she and he daughter stay in a separate area of the house while you-all were in the bedroom areas?
A. Yes. She went to the, I guess it’s the front living room area, and they turned on the TV and they were watching TV while we were going through the rest of the area of the house.
Q. Did Henry Lucas point out areas inside the house?
A. Yes, sir, he did.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Q. As best as you can remember, what areas did he point out?
A. We walked in through the kitchen, then made a right towards, I guess it’s your living room area. Then he pointed to the left, which would be the bedroom and the bathroom area.
Q. Did you-all go back in that area? A. Right, sir. We went to the left and he mention the bedroom area.
Q. All right. Did he point out the correct room were the victim was initially attacked?
A. As far as I know. I had never been in the house before. I was not at the crime scene.
Q. Okay. After leaving the house, did you-ll come back towards the downtown area? A. Yes, sir, we did.
Q. DO you remember any discussion by henry Lucas about the truck stop on the way back?
A. We got back on I-10 from Zaragoza, and as we went by the truck stop, he made the comment that he had sold some of the stuff there at the truck stop after he had left the scene.
Q. Did he mention at that time who he had sold it to or anything like that or just that he had sold something.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
He just mentioned that he - - As far as I recall, he made the comment that he had sold some of the items there at the truck stop.
MR. MOODY: Pass the witness.
BY MS. SIPES:
Q. Detective Uribe, you state that you first met Mr. Lucas on September the - - Let’s see - - September the 24th? A. 20th.
Q. 20th of 1984. Is that correct?
A. I believe so.
Q. Prior to your meeting with him, had you discussed Henry Lee Lucas with any other law enforcement people?
A. Not myself. Detective Perez had mentioned the fact that he was going to Sierra Blanca with Sergeant Apodaca to interview Henry at Sierra Blanca.
Q. Had you discussed Henry Lee Lucas with other El Paso law enforcement officers who had interviewed Mr. Lucas before?
A. I personally, no.
Q. Who had?
A. I don’t know.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Q. When you say you personally, do you know of anyone else who had?
A. I understand - - Well, I had heard and I guess in the general meeting that Flynn and Lucas were - - had gone down, I believe it was David Marquez from the sheriff’s department, they also had gone down to Georgetown to talk to him.
Q. How had your knowledge of this come about?
A. I think, if I’m not mistaken - - I might be mistaken. I’m not sure exactly how, but I believe it was during our morning meeting something was brought up they were out of town, that they had gone to interview Mr. Lucas in reference of a store clerk up on Dyer.
Q. Okay. Sir, you state that you work in crimes against persons at this time. Is that correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. And that you began work on the murder investigation of Librada Apodaca the following Tuesday after the death was discovered on May 28th, 1983?
A. That’s correct.
Q. And you also state that you’d never been to the home?
A. Right. I had never been to the home. I had
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
the long weekend off. It was Memorial Day weekend and I was out of town.
Q. Now, had you ever worked on a - - had you ever been assigned to a murder case before this?
A. I had participated in some, yes.
Q. In what way?
A. We did follow-up work on a couple of the cases.
Q. How many, sir?
A. I’d say three, at least, that I know of offhand.
Q. So you had spent some 20-odd years with the police department here in El Paso and it was very few murder investigations that you had dealt with. Isn’t that correct? A. Personally, yes.
Q. And in your assignment in crimes against persons, you were assigned particularly to what area?
A. Robbery and kidnappings.
Q. Okay. And Detective Perez had been your partner in that area. Is that correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. And is that how you became assigned to this case?
A. No, Detective Perez and I had worked
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
together. All the time that I had been up in crimes against persons he has been my partner.
Q. Okay. Would you tell the Court very briefly what procedure you and Sergeant Apodaca and Detective Perez would use in order to keep updated on the ongoing investigation?
A. Well, mainly Detective Perez would advise me, we got this phone call, this followup on this, can you do this for me, and I’d go on the computer or whatever resources we needed to try to get the information in reference to information we had received.
Q. Okay. Isn’t it true, sir, that there was a procedure whereby members of your department would meet each morning and exchange information and be updated on the various cases that you were involved in and that this particular procedure was an object of study by other law enforcement agents in Texas?
A. No.
Q. That’s not true?
A. No, I don’t think so. The only time that I actually recall it being brought up, we did have a meeting in the mornings for the crimes against persons and it’s mostly to see who is present, if somebody is missing. And once we get through with
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
that, we go into the robbery section.
And we did have a small meeting where Sergeant Apodaca goes through the reports that we receive that the - - from the following day or the weekend. And we read the cases and we try - - what we try to do is see if there is anything similar to another robbery we are working.
Say, for instance, I have the lower valley and if by chance this same MO fits the description of a robbery that is up on Dyer Street, then I’ll mention it to the officers connected to the Dyer Street area that fits the description of what is occurring in the valley or any other part of town.
Q. Okay. If you have a lead and it has, say, fallen off, is a dead-end lead, do you advise the other officers of that?
A. Sometimes you do, sometimes you don’t It’s up to the officer that is working the case.
Q. Were you aware that Detective Benny Perez had contacted the sheriff of Hale County and the sheriff of Montaque County with regard to Lucas’ involvement in the Librada Apodaca murder as early as the second week of June 1983 and had met with a dead-end lead in that as far as Mr. Lucas’ involvement was concerned?
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Like I said, sometimes I’ll be working a lead as you call it or information that we have received. Now, there is a chance that Detective Perez might be working another lead and he will be calling, like you say, Montaque or - -
Q. But were you aware of this particular incident?
A. I recall - - What I recall is that he did try calling Montaque and the sheriff wasn’t in and he was waiting for a phone call. And then maybe later on he tried again, but I don’t know if he did talk to him. If he did, I don’t recall. I don’t know what was said.
Q. Okay. Sir, did you or anyone else in your department ever give information to the Odessa newspaper regarding the death of Librada Apodaca so that they could publish an article? I believe it’s the Odessa Statesman.
A. I’m not aware of it.
Q. Okay.
Q. Did you ever get a copy of that article that was published up there in the Odessa Statesman?
A. I did not.
Q. Did you or anyone else in your department give Detective Smith of Odessa information so he
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
could cause details of the Apodaca murder to be placed in the Odessa Statesman?
No, I have no personal knowledge of it.
Q. Did you bring your field notes with you here today?
A. Yes.
Q. May I see those, sir? Thank you.
Sir, did you cause to be published in the newspapers that are distributed in Juarez certain articles carrying the details of the murder of Librada Apodaca?
No, sir - - No, ma’am.
Q. The date that you first met Mr. Lucas there in September of 1984, was it there at Southwest Air Rangers that you first met him?
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. Okay. Now, prior to that had you listened to the taped recording of the so-called confession of Sierra Blanca of the day before?
A. No, ma’am, I did not.
Q. Why were you told that you were out there at Southwest Air Rangers?
A. Because, like I said before, my partner and - - Detective Perez, I mean, we work together and we went out there.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Q. Well, did you ask why you were going out there to further your investigation?
A. Because the rangers were bringing in Henry Lee Lucas and he felt that he could find the residence of Librada Apodaca.
Q. Okay. Did they tell you that in that confession that Mr. - - in that recorded statement that Mr. Lucas had placed the date as May the 5th or May the 6th? Did they tell you that?
A. No, ma’am.
Q. Did they tell you in that Sierra Blanca confession that Mr. Lucas had stated that he was coming back from Tucson, Arizona?
A. The - - In other words, the day that we were supposed to have gone out, I understand that, what was it, 12:00 and they were waiting for a phone call. That’s all I recall, that they were waiting for a phone call as to when he was going to be released from Lubbock and they would let us know what time they were going to get to the airport.
Tentatively there was a 12:00, 12:30 time of arrival. Detective Perez and Sergeant Apodaca discussed some of the case, but I had other cases that I worked and I was tied up.
Q. We understand that everybody had other cases
Page 1034
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
That they were working and nobody was really concentrating on the Lucas case. We understand that.
No, it’s not that.
Q. It’s not.
A. No, because Detective Perez was the one in charge of the investigation.
Q. Was he doing other cases?
A. He was doing other cases, also.
Q. Did they tell you that Mr. Lucas said that he had turned north off of the interstate and had traveled up in an area some 30 minutes?
A. No, this is the first time I know about that.
Q. Did you-all go north off of the interstate that day?
A. Not to my knowledge.
Q. Okay. Did they tell you they were having problems with a dog in the backyard as far as Mr. Lucas going through the backyard and entering the kitchen door?
A. No, ma’am.
Q. No, they didn’t tell you that? A. No.
Q. Did they tell you they were having problems with that so-called confession about the entry into the kitchen door?
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
No, I’m not aware of it.
Q. Did they tell you this did not match the facts of this particular case?
A. Detective Perez I do recall mentioning something that - - in reference to some of the items as to the crime scene did not match, but specifically I can’t recall exactly what.
Q. Did they tell you that there was a burglar alarm on that kitchen door that was intact and that his story of the day before could not have been true about his entry through the kitchen door? Did they tell you that?
A. This is the first time I heard of an alarm.
Q. This is the first time you heard of it. Even though you hadn’t been to the crime scene, you had studied the crime scene photographs, had you not?
A. No, ma’am.
Q. You never did?
A. No, ma’am.
Q. Did they tell you they were having a problem with Mr. Lucas’ confession in that the crime scene did not how an initial hit in the bedroom?
A. No, ma’am, I’m not aware of that.
Q. That Mr. Lucas had confessed to killing the woman and initially hitting her in the living room as
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
opposed to the bedroom, they didn’t tell you that?
No, ma’am.
Q. That they were having problems in that area? Did they tell you that they were having problems with where Mr. Lucas said he found the axe, that that was erroneous?
A. I think I had heard in reference to the axe that family members had placed the axe behind the door to the kitchen, but I do recall Mr. Lucas saying that the axe was in the bedroom.
Q. Did they tell you it was behind the washing machine in the utility room? Is that were the family told you that the axe was always kept?
A. The family didn’t tell me personally. Like I said - -
Q. You read that in the reports, did you not?
A. No, I did not read the reports. It was brought out, though, that the kitchen - - or that the axe was always behind a door in the kitchen.
Q. Did they tell you they were having problems because Henry Lucas had stated in that confession that he had cleaned himself off, the blood, and had dried all the blood off with a towel and that no such towel was found at the scene? Did they tell you that?
A. No, but I recall Mr. Lucas, when we left the
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
bedroom, he said, “From there I went to the washroom. This is the washroom that I used. This is where I washed my hands.” And he mentioned to Detective Perez something about the medicine cabinet that he had mentioned to him in Sierra Blanca.
Q. Did they tell you that they were having problems because Henry Lucas had confessed to taking the victim’s purse with the money in it the day before where in truth, in fact, the purse was at the murder scene with the money in it? Did they tell you about that?
A. No.
Q. Did they tell you that the day before Mr. Luca had said that he had gone over a road after he left that house which fits the description of Trans Mountain Road, the road through the mountains and into New Mexico having left the north side of El Paso? Did they tell you they were having problems with that route?
A. No, ma’am, I don’t know that.
Q. Did they tell you they were having problems with some so-called surgical gloves at the scene that Mr. Lucas claims that he left there at the scene which were never found? Did they tell you that?
Page 1038
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
The only thing I recall about the surgical gloves is that Mr. Lucas had mentioned - - during one of our brief talks with Mr. Lucas he mentioned that he would get the surgical gloves by going in the hospitals and doctors in California and it was easy to obtain.
Q. He had left there at the scene, hadn’t he?
A. I don’t recall.
Q. Your fellow officers, Mr. Apodaca and Mr. Perez, didn’t tell you that the day before he had said he had thrown the surgical gloves down there at the murder scene and that no such gloves were found?
A. No ma’am.
Q. They didn’t discuss with you, then, all the problems with the confession that they had had which Mr. Lucas had given the day before which didn’t fit this particular crime. Is that right?
A. Like I said, the case was not discussed with me.
Q. Okay. So you really didn’t know what you were doing out there at the airport that morning. Is that right?
A. The only thing I knew we were going to escort Mr. Lucas to see if he could find the route to the Librada residence.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Q. Okay. When you went out to the airport that morning, sir, Henry Lucas had not been in your custody, had he?
A. No, ma’am.
Q. But you knew, did you not, that he had been in the custody of the Texas Rangers for some one year and four months, is that right, three months?
A. I don’t know the exact time, but I knew he was in custody.
Q. And you knew that he had several sentences with regard to other allegations of murder. Isn’t that true?
A. Yes, he mentioned it.
Q. And you knew that he was not serving those sentences. Isn’t that true.
A. I thought he was incarcerated pending the disposition of them.
Q. You knew he was not in the Texas Department of Corrections. Isn’t that right?
A. I knew he was in Georgetown.
Q. Okay. And you knew he was flying around in a King Aire. Isn’t that true?
A. I don’t know how much about planes, but I knew he was flying around in a plane.
Q. A big plane, wasn’t it?
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Not that big.
Q. Not that big. You knew he was dressed in street clothes, did you not?
A. Yes.
Q. And you knew when he got off that airplane he was not handcuffed, was he?
A. I’m not sure if he was handcuffed or not.
Q. Can you remember?
A. He might have - - As soon as he got off they might have placed the handcuffs on him.
Q. What did you know about his attorneys? Did you know whether or not he was being represented by an attorney when he got off that airplane that morning?
A. No, ma’am, I did not.
Q. Did you inquire of Mr. Lucas whether he had an attorney?
A. No. As a matter of fact, Mr. Lucas made a couple of comments, “The hell with the attorneys. I don’t need an attorney.”
Q. Did you know that in his initial confession, his very first confession after his arrest on June the 11th of 1983, Mr. Lucas said he had been asking for an attorney and it looked like he wasn’t going to get one?
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
I have no idea about that.
Q. You have no idea?
A. No, ma’am.
Q. Did you talk with any of his attorneys that were representing him at that time and get their permission to do any further interviews with him?
A. No, ma’am.
Q. When you gave him his rights off of the sample card which Mr. Moody showed to you, did you have him initial that card?
A. No, ma’am.
Q. And you have been a detective with the El Paso Police Department for some 20-odd years?
Yes, ma’am.
Q. Isn’t it your regular procedure to have the person that you’re interviewing initial that card?
A. Most of the time, it is. In this case we were traveling on a freeway, he was handcuffed, he was in the right front seat, and I felt we should give him a warning before we did start.
Q. If he was handcuffed, Detective, how was he gesticulating and making all these gestures and
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
giving all these directions, sir?
Like this and like that. He was handcuffed in front.
Q. Okay. Did you handcuff him while he was eating there at Forti’s Mexican food restaurant?
A. Na, ma’am, we got better sense.
Q. What kind of inquiry did you make into his mental health at that time?
A. I personally didn’t make any at all.
Q. Did anyone there make any inquiry into his mental health knowing he had confessed to doing away with Lee Harvey Oswald?
A. I have no knowledge of that.
Q. If you had known that he had confessed to killing Lee Harvey Oswald, would you have made inquiry into the state of his mental health that day?
A. Probably would.
Q. And if you had known that he had confessed to kidnapping 500 little United States citizens and taking them into Mexico and selling them into slavery, would you have made inquiry into his mental health?
A. Probably would.
Q. If you had known that he had confessed to killing Jimmy Hoffa of the Teamsters organization, would you have made inquiry into his mental health?
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
I probably would.
Q. If you had known about the taped confession of the day before, would you have made more inquiry into what was happening that day, Officer?
A. I felt that my partner knew what we were doing, and he was the main investigator and I was just going along with him.
Q. Was there any time that day that Henry Lee Lucas was out of control or out of the custody of the Texas Rangers or did they accompany Mr. Lucas everywhere he went?
A. I would say, most of time that we were traveling around, moving around, Clayton Smith was with us.
Q. And he had been with Clayton Smith or Sergeant Prince continually for about a year and three months. Isn’t that true?
A. As far as I know, yes. They - - He was part of the - - Clayton Smith was the task force lawman along with Bob Prince.
Q. Knowing he had been traveling with these gentlemen in California, traveling in governors’ planes to West Virginia, to Florida - -
MR. MOODY: Your Honor, I object to that. I mean, she is misstating the evidence quite freely
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
here.
THE COURT: I’ll sustain the objection.
MS. SIPES: Well, I’d like to be corrected.
THE COURT: I don’t know. Let’s approach the bench.
MR. MOODY: You’ve already said the DPS - -
THE COURT: Mr. Moody, let’s approach the bench.
MS. SIPES: It doesn’t - -
THE COURT: Let’s approach the bench. Let me just say this to you. I don’t know whose plane that he was traveling in, if the governor’s plane is correct or if it’s not correct. I don’t know.
MR. MOODY: But, You Honor - -
THE COURT: But I sustained your objection. If there is any proof of that, certainly you’re entitled to bring that out at some time, if that has anything to do with the suppression of this confession. You know, that’s the problem here. We need to suppress this confession and get to that part of the case.
MS. SIPES: Well, Your Honor, I think that this - -
THE COURT: I’m going to be here six months
Page 1045
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
taking depositions.
MS. SIPES: I’m not taking a deposition, Your Honor. The fact that this man had been under the total control of the Texas Rangers for a year and three months and have been traveling around - -
THE COURT: Well, I - -
MS. SIPES: instead goes to his willingness and whether he was doing this of his own free will.
THE COURT: And I haven’t stopped you from going into that. The objection was that you said that he was traveling in a governor’s airplane. Mr. Moody doesn’t believe that. I don’t know that. If there is proof of that, I’d like to have it.
MR. MOODY: The record so far, it has been stated in court by Clayton Smith that he traveled in the Department of Public safety airplanes.
MS. SIPES: You think I’m referring to Governor White? I’m referring to the governor of West Virginia. He sent his plane for him and took him back, and to the governor of Louisiana.
MR. MOODY: I don’t know anything about the governors of the other states.
MS. SIPES: Both those governors of the other states had sent planes for him. I’m not
Page 1046
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Talking about Governor White.
THE COURT: Why don’t you do this. Make it clear so we don’t have that problem.
Q. (BY MS. SIPES) Now, sir, did you know that the governor of West Virginia and the governor of Louisiana had sent their planes from their offices to pick up Mr. Lucas and the Texas Rangers and transport him to those states for murder investigations?
A. I have no personal knowledge of that, no.
Q. Would you have made more inquiry into the mental state and the physical well-being of henry lee Lucas had you known that?
A. Like I said, I was not the prime investigator. Detective Perez was the one. Again was just as a supporting role for him.
Q. But, sir, you were the one who administered to Mr. Lucas his written rights - - I mean, his legal rights. Isn’t that true?
A. That is correct.
Q. I’m asking whether you knew the background of how Mr. Lucas came to you and whether he was fully capable of waiving his rights that day.
A. Ms. Sipes, you don’t - - you know, I have issued my warnings and I don’t know the individual that we were arresting or placing under arrest.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
There is no way I can check as to their mental health on each case that we arrest.
Q. But isn’t it true, sir, that for the most part when you interview a witness or a potential defendant that that person is either incarcerated in the El Paso County jail or you’re interviewing him or her at their home and you know a little bit about their background?
A. Sometimes you don’t. We have arrested many a suspect on a simple theft charge it turns out it’s going to be a robbery. When you bring them over from the jail, you do give the warning, but you still don’t look into the background because you’re working on that particular case, you know, and that’s it.
Q. In this particular case Henry Lucas had gathered a lot of publicity, had he not?
A. Yes.
Q. And both in the newspapers and in notional television. Isn’t that true?
A. As far as I know, yes.
Q. And you knew a little bit about his background?
A. Of what he was confessing to, yes. I mean, just from what I read in the papers.
Q. Okay.
Page 1048
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
But do you believe everything you read in the papers?
Q. Let me ask you this, sir. Did you know that there had been an order issued by a district judge as far as a gag order was concerned regarding Henry Lee Lucas and publicity that has never been rescinded?
A. I understand the judge did issue one, yes.
Q. Did you understand it that day in September of 1984 when you went out there to interview him?
A. As far as I know, the order wasn’t issued then.
Q. And do you know that another district judge had issued an order in Georgetown regarding further inquiries being made of henry Lee Lucas by any law enforcement agencies? A. No, ma’am, I had no knowledge of that.
Q. The Texas Rangers didn’t tell you that?
A. No, ma’am.
Q. Had you been aware of that order, would you have continued with your inquiry, sir?
A. If he voluntarily came in to us and said he didn’t want an attorney, the hell with the attorneys, and he still talked to us, you have to follow his request.
Q. But Henry Lee Lucas didn’t just walk in off
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
The sidewalk, did he, sir? He arrived in a DPS King Aire airplane accompanied by two Texas Rangers, did he not?
Arrangements had been made with the Texas Rangers, with Mr. Lucas, with Detective Perez and sergeant Apodaca that he was coming in. I was just their assistant.
Q. This was a custodial interrogation that was made of Mr. Lucas, was it not?
A. In a way, yes.
Q. When you were out at Southwest Air Rangers, who was present?
A. As far as I can recall, Clayton Smith, Carl Mullins, the pilot; Mr. Lucas, Sergeant Apodaca, Detective Perez and myself.
Q. And did anyone else see the officers there with Mr. Lucas?
A. I mean, it’s an open public place. I don’t know if anybody recognized him.
Q. Did you meet the airplane outside there on the strip or did you go inside that reception are there?
A. They walked from the plane - - As a matter of fact, we were in the parking lot when they showed up because at the time the arrival was scheduled to come
Page 1050
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
In, they were a few minutes late. By then we had walked out to the car and were walking back when Clayton showed up.
Q. And were you carrying a recorder with you, sir?
A. No, ma’am.
Q. And did you carry or have access to a recorder during your interview with Henry Lee Lucas on that day?
A. As far as the route, no. I believe when we brought him back in, the videotape was there. Is that what you’re referring to, the recorder?
Q. Let’s talk about the trip. Did you have a recorder of any tape, video or audio or both?
A. No ma’am.
Q. On that trip?
A. No ma’am.
Q. And you realize, do you not, sir, that when Henry Lee Lucas had been in El Paso before making a tour to different murder sites that that had been recorded by the El Paso Police Department and the sheriff’s department?
A. I have no knowledge of that.
Q. You have no knowledge of that?
Page 1051
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
No ma’am.
Q. All of the statements that you have referred to here today were made without the benefit of any type of recording. Is that correct?
A. What I have said, yeah. I never used a recorder.
Q. Okay. And - -
A. Up to that point.
Q. As a result of what he told you orally that day, as a result of the statements that he made to you, did you come across any weapon or any other piece of evidence which would indicate that he was involved in this crime that you haven’t known about there before?
A. I don’t understand the question.
Q. Did he lead you to any piece of evidence that you had not already had access to?
A. He took us to the crime scene. I had never been in to the crime scene.
Q. Sir, let me hand you your notes and ask you if you can identify those? Do your notes indicate that you went to the crime scene On June the 8th with Sergeant Apodaca?
A. Yes.
Q. So you had been to the crime scene before?
Page 1052
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
No, I take it back. It was not the crime scene. It was Jimmy Apodaca’s mother’s home which was next door, and we went over there.
Q. Is that the mother’s home there? A. Right next door to it.
Q. Which home have you drawn out there?
A. If I’m not mistaken, this is another investigation, reference Lomart up on North Mesa. See, I was working other robbery cases, okay? And it just so happens that I put that information underneath, okay? But if you will refer to the next page, it’s the Lomart robbery.
Q. Where did this murder take place?
A. On Irma Way.
Q. 146 Irma Way?
A. I believe so.
Q. Would you read for the Court what you say there in your notes on that day of June the 8th, 1983?
A. It starts on the top, George Malone, a phone number, 6104 Pinta Way, EPPD Number 148082, and I got 01261161 on 6-8. I even put 33. “At approximately 11:05 a.m. undersigned and Sergeant Jimmy Apodaca went by 164 Irma Way.”
MR. MOODY: 146 Irma was is Apodaca’s mother’s home, not - - The residence we are talking
Page 1053
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
About is 144 Irma Way, is the residence of the murder.
THE COURT: MR. moody, you know, you, of course, are going to be allowed to bring out any discrepancies in this testimony, but you’re not going to be allowed to just break in here and make remarks like this and I’m not going to allow Ms. Sipes or anyone else to. You know, you can make any - - bring out anything you want in your examination.
MR. MOODY: Well, she is misstating the address where the events occurred.
THE COURT: Mr. Moody, you can’t - - you’re not going to do that. Now, I’m not going to let you do it. If she is making a mistake, it’s wonderful that you have been able to point it out, but do it like you ought to do it.
Don’t just make that statement in open court. You know you can’t do that. I don’t disagree with your statement. I’m merely saying let’s do it that right way.
Q. (BY MS. SIPES) So had you or had you not been by the crime scene, sir? A. In this note right here, I went by Jimmy Apodaca’s home, okay, hi parent’s home, which is next door to the victim’s residence.
Q. Okay. Well, let’s go back, then, to my
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Question before we got off on this dead-end line of questioning and go over to what was it that you and the other officers discovered that was evidence of this - - of Henry Lee Lucas having committed this crime by virtue of what he told you that day that you didn’t already know?
Well, he took us to the scene and he went through the residence showing the exact bedroom, the bathroom, where supposedly he had left the victim.
Q. Now, did you discover any evidence, sir, as a result of what he led you to? Did he lead you to anything he had secreted or anything that he had hidden that would show that he had been there before, anything at all that you had not discovered before?
A. I really don’t know what had been discovered, okay, because I was never there at the scene, inside the residence, let me put it that way.
Q. And inside the residence sir, did you have a recorder with you and did you have it one/
A. No, ma’am, I did not.
Q. Did you take Henry Lee Lucas into the home?
A. I was in the party that did go into the residence.
Q. Can you describe very briefly for the court who went into the home and where they were positioned
Page 1055
in the house?
We were led in by Mr. Lucas. Detective Perez was there, Sergeant Apodaca was there, Clayton Smith was there, and I don’t recall if Mr. Mullins went into the residence or not. I went in. And while in the house, that’s the first time I had been in there, and while he was talking to Detective Perez in the bedroom, I looked around. I could see the little girl that lived at the house and the mother.
Q. Where were they?
A. They were in the living room portion or the front door portion watching TV.
Q. Okay. Was anybody in there talking to them?
A. I don’t know.
Q. Did they see what you did and hear what you did?
A. I don’t believe so, no.
Q. You don’t believe so?
A. No, ma’am.
Q. Okay. You recorded Henry Lee Lucas again, did you not, on a later trip?
A. I recorded?
Q. Yes, sir. In October didn’t Mr. Lucas come back on another confession trip on which you made your recordings, the tapes?
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Oh, when he took us to the northeast?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. Yes, ma’am.
Q. You recorded him that time, didn’t you, sir?
A. Yes ma’am.
Q. So on henry Lee Lucas’ first trip to El Paso with the sheriff’s department and members of the EPPD and Texas Rangers where nothing was found, he was recorded except for a 30-minute lapse. On the second trip on the Librada Apodaca, there was absolutely no recording whatsoever. And then on the third trip, the recorders were brought into play again. Is that right?
A. I don’t know anything about the first trip, okay, so I can’t say whether it was recorded or not. I know that we did not record him on the Librada Apodaca when he did bring him in.
And the following time he was the one that voluntarily came back. As a matter of fact, he made the comment to our sergeant and lieutenant that if he came back to try to help us out, he wanted to work with Detective Perez and myself.
Q. Okay. But the question is did you record him on the second trip in October and the third trip in October?
Page 1057
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Yes, ma’am.
Q. What did you use to record him with?
A. We had a tape recorder, and I believe Detective Perez has the tapes.
Q. Okay. And those trips and confessions and tapes didn’t pan out, did they, sir? A. Not as far as I know, no.
Q. And did Mr. Lucas lead you on the Apodaca trip similar to the way he led you on the second trip with you in October? A. I’m sorry. I didn’t - -
Q. Are the two trips and the manner in which they were made, are they similar?
A. Yes. We would meet him and talk and he was going to take us out to another crime scene, so we just follow his instructions.
Q. Does the victim’s home look like an adobe home from the outside/
A. As far as I can tell, no.
Q. Is it an adobe home? A. I don’t believe so. Probably Stucco.
Q. As a matter of fact, isn’t it cement block and stucco?
A. I’m not sure. I never did test it. I never did look at it that close.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Q. How many times have you been to that house? A. As far as in the house, just - -
Q. Outside.
A. Outside? I’d say about four or five times.
Q. Okay. Were they all in the daylight hours?
A. Yes.
Q. And you’re unable to tell us here today whether that home is stucco, adope or cinder block or a combination of any of them?
A. I never did - - No, it wasn’t something I was looking for, so I can’t really say. I don’t want to say it was a stucco and then you go over there and find out it’s cinder block.
Q. That wasn’t your area of concentration, was it?
A. It was to a certain point.
Q. Did Mr. Lucas draw any maps for you there at the scene during September?
A. Not at the scene, no, as far as I recall. Not to me.
Q. To anyone else?
A. Not that I recall.
Q. Did he draw any maps later on at the EPPD offices? A. Yes, ma’am.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Q. Do you have those with you?
A. No, ma’am.
Q. What maps did he draw that day at the EPPD office?
A. It wasn’t really a map. It was a layout that he had driven in. And Detective Perez asked him to put a drawing as to the area where he had been sitting inside the truck stop in reference to where his car was at, where the waitresses had gone to view the items he had for sale.
Q. Okay. Just those two drawings were made, that one of the truck stop and the one where he had parked his car at the scene?
A. As far as I recall, yes, ma’am.
Q. Where had he parked his car at the scene?
A. It was to the east of the main building or the restaurant, and it was on the parking area facing towards the freeway.
Q. You’re talking about the truck stop?
A. Yes, ma’am.
Q. Am I mistaken in that I thought you said he had also made a drawing of where he had parked his car at the victim’s scene? A. No, ma’am, I didn’t say that.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Q. Okay. I’m sorry. He made two drawings, one of where he parked his car where?
A. At the truck stop.
Q. Okay. So both of these drawings were at the - - of the truck stop?
A. Yes, ma’am.
Q. One was the inside, one was the outside?
A. Right.
Q. Did he ever show you where he had parked his car at the victim’s residence?
A. Not to me, no.
Q. To anyone else?
A. I don’t know.
Q. You don’t know?
A. No.
Q. You have never looked at that in a supplement or had anybody tell you?
A. As far as I recall, no.
Q. Was there a chain-link fence there at the crime scene?
A. By the time that we - - or that Mr. Lucas took us here, yes, there was.
Q. And there wasn’t one there on May 27th, 1983?
A. As far as I know, no.
Q. You’re certain of that?
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
From what I heard from Sergeant Apodaca and when Mr. Lucas took us out there, he says, “That’s what I have been looking for.” And, of course, part of the chain-link fence had been rolled up to the end and I’m sorry. Part of the wooden fence had been rolled up and the chain-link fence had been installed.
Q. Had you gone inside the truck stop that day of September 20th, 1984?
A. No, ma’am.
Q. To your knowledge, had Mr. Lucas been taken inside that truck stop by other officers?
A. No, ma’am.
Q. Did you ever make inquiry as to whether he had been there on his first trip out here?
A. I had the occasion to go with Detective Perez to talk to a couple of the witnesses, yes.
Q. Did you talk with any law enforcement officers to see whether they had taken him into the truck stop?
A. No, ma’am.
Q. You would grant us that if he had been taken in there several months before by other law enforcement officers he would then be able to draw a facsimile of the interior?
A. I guess so.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Q. Okay. At whose direction did you make the October crime search?
A. I don’t know. It was probably Detective Perez that suggested we do it.
Q. Okay. And you say as you were driving back to the downtown El Paso after being at the crime scene that Mr. Lucas mentioned that he had sold something at the truck stop?
A. Yes, ma’am.
Q. What was it he said, to the best of your memory?
A. If I recall right, he said as we were going by, again he pointed with his hands. He says, “By the way, I did sell some of the stuff out there at the truck stop after I came back from the crime scene.”
Q. Did he tell you what?
A. No, ma’am.
Q. You’re certain that he did not tell you what?
A. He didn’t tell me personally.
Q. Did he tell anyone else there?
A. He might have. I don’t recall.
Q. Did the officers tell you that this differed from his other statements as to where he had sold the items from the home?
A. I recall that when we did bring him back, he
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
did mention that he had sold some of the stuff in the flea market in San Antonio.
Q. Did you subsequently make any inquiry into the truthfulness of that statement that he had sold items at a flea market in San Antonio?
A. I believe Detective Perez did follow that up and we did try to contact some people down there to see if we could locate the persons having knowledge as to him being down there or if anybody recognized him or if they recalled buying items from him.
Q. Did you or Detective Perez go to San Antonio?
A. No, ma’am.
Q. Did anyone contact anyone at a flea market?
A. I believe Detective Perez did contact either a ranger or sheriff, officer down there to look into it, but I’m not sure. And I don’t know what were the results.
Q. Sir, you made a supplement of your investigation into this visit to the crime scene on September the 20th. Isn’t that correct?
A. Yes, ma’am.
Q. And you have reviewed it prior to testifying
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
here today yesterday with Mr. Jewkes. Isn’t that correct?
With who?
Q. Mr. Jewkes. Didn’t you review this yesterday with Mr. Jewkes?
A. No, ma’am.
Q. You have reviewed it?
A. Yes, ma’am.
MS. SIPES: May I approach the witness, Your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes, ma’am.
Q. (BY MS. SIPES) Can you identify that for the Court, please, sir? Is that a supplement which you made?
A. I don’t believe so.
Q. You don’t believe so?
A. No, ma’am, I never did make that supplement.
Q. You never did make that supplement?
A. No, ma’am. I believe it’s my partner, Detective Perez. Turn that first page. It’s Perez.
Q. Detective Benny Perez?
A. It’s not my supplement.
Q. DO you have your supplement with you? A. In reference to that?
Q. Yes, sir.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Yes, ma’am, that’s my supplement there.
Q. May I see it?
A. Sure.
Q. In your supplement, sir, do you mention at all driving back by the Chevron truck stop and the comment that was purportedly made by Mr. Lucas - -
A. No, ma’am.
Q. - - in regards to his having sold any items in that truck stop?
A. No ma’am, I did not.
Q. And did you make any other written reference to the comment made by Mr. Lucas as having told you that he had sold some items in there?
A. No, ma’am.
Q. There is no written reference or recorded reference anywhere to that?
A. As far as I know, it was just one of those comments that was brought out and I didn’t make a supplement. I don’t know if Detective Perez did or not.
Q. Okay. Isn’t it true, sir, that there has been no reference to that purported statement as having been made by Mr. Lucas in this case in either written form or taped form?
A. I don’t know of Detective Perez made it. I
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
couldn’t tell you.
Q. Okay. But you certainly have not? A. No, ma’am.
Q. Have you ever testified to that before today?
A. No, ma’am. It was brought out and I just said what I recalled.
Q. Okay. This is the first time that you have ever mentioned it?
A. As far as I know, yes.
Q. Have you discussed it before with Mr. Moody? A. No, ma’am.
Q. Okay.
MS. SIPES: Just a moment, Your Honor.
Q. (BY MS. SIPES) Once again, sir, just to make sure I haven’t misunderstood you, with the exception of Officer Smith there in Odessa you did not talk with any other law enforcement personnel about Henry Lee Lucas prior to your interview with him on September the 20th of 1984?
A. As far as I can recall, no, ma’am.
Q. Other than Apodaca and Perez?
A. Right.
Q. Okay.
MS. SIPES: Thank you, sir.
THE COURT: We are going to take a brief
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
recess, ladies and gentlemen.
(A recess was taken.)
THE COURT: All right, ladies and gentlemen, let’s keep going here.
Be seated, please.
MR. moody, I think the witness has been turned back to you.
MR. MOODY: Thank you, Your Honor.
BY MR. MOODY:
Q. In regards to Henry Lucas’ mental health on, what was it, the 20th day of September, 1984, di dhe appear to be under the influence of liquor?
A. No, sir.
Q. Under the influence of any drugs?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did his responses to questions given to him either by yourself or others seem appropriate?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was he telling you anything bizarre, way out of the ordinary? A. Not that day.
Q. Was he mentioning anything to you about Jimmy Hoffa or any of these things defense counsel
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
has talked to you about?
That’s the first time I heard about it.
Q. How did he seem? How did he act?
A. He acted normal. He responded to questions was asked him. It was no doubt in my mind he knew what he was talking about.
(State’s exhibit marked, S-13)
Q. (BY MR. MOODY) And then in regards to whether or not - - I think Ms. Sipes was asking you something - - First, before I get into that, I have another photograph here, State’s exhibit 13. Do you recognize that photograph?
A. Yes, it’s the victim’s home and it’s more or less taken from the area where Mr. Lucas stopped and he advised, “That’s the bedroom to the right and the door to the left.”
MR. MOODY: Your Honor, I guess at this point we will offer into evidence for purposes of this hearing the photographs - - Let’s see. Where did they go - - State’s exhibit 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, and 13.
MS. SIPES: We have no objection, Your Honor.
THE COURT: They will be admitted.
Q. (BY MR. MOODY) Now, do you remember when Ms. Sipes was talking to you about the going by the truck stop and Henry Lucas’ comment?
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Yes, sir.
Q. About selling the property?
A. Right.
Q. At the truck stop. Did you-all follow up on that information?
A. Yes, we did. We contacted the people working there and we did find that items were purchased by some of the waitresses that were working at the truck stop. We traced it down and we did receive some of the items back and similar items back.
Q. Did, in fact, these waitresses identify Henry Lucas; some of them did?
A. Yes.
Q. As being the one who sold the property and the property matched back to property like that which was missing?
A. Right. It was returned back from San Diego and up in Denver, I believe.
Q. Primarily the crockpot?
A. Right.
Q. And up until the time that Mr. Lucas mentioned to you, to all of you that he sold some of the items there at the truck stop, did you have any idea that there were any items ever sold from that, the Apodaca case at the truck stop?
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
We had no idea.
Q. So, in effect, that statement that he gave to you back on September 20th did lead you to other evidence?
A. Yes, sir, it did.
Q. Evidence that was allegedly taken in the Apodaca burglary murder?
A. Yes, sir.
MR. MOODY: Pass the witness.
BY MS. SIPES:
Q. Detective Uribe, you took certain notes, did you not, on September the 20th of 1984?
A. Yes, ma’am.
Q. And you took down the directions of the trip to the crime scene. Is that right?
A. That’s correct.
Q. And you state there in your supplement that the interview had basically ended at that point and that Detective Perez would handle matters from that point on. Is that right?
Page 1071
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Up to the point where we arrived and Mr. Lucas indicated the bedroom, the kitchen, then at that time my supplement ended there. My supplement was mostly covering the route that we had taken. From there Detective Perez covered the little girl going through the window, calling the parents and whatever took place inside.
Q. So your interview, then, of Henry Lucas for all purposes, ended, then, upon arrival of the home and detective Perez took over from there?
A. Right. See, at that time Detective Perez had been the driver, so I was the one who was taking the notes. And then from there, being that he is the case agent or investigator in charge, he went ahead and took the notes for the rest of the - - going through the residence and coming back.
Q. However, you continued to make several noted in your field notes, did you not, indicating that you left the house at 4:15 p.m.?
A. Right.
Q. Okay. And then you go ahead and you took a statement from Mr. Lucas down at the EPPD headquarters. Is that correct?
A. We talked to him again at the - - at the office and he agreed to put it on videotape.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Q. Okay. You made notes of your interview down at the office, did you not/
A. You - -
Q. Consisting of a page here in your field notes?
A. Right, in reference to - -
Q. Indicating - -
A. - - to the interview, the video portion of it.
Q. Okay. So were you present in the interview room when the videotape was made?
A. Yes, ma’am.
Q. And where were you seated, sir, if, in fact, you were?
A. Facing the camera. Mr. Lucas was at the right, Detective Perez was to hos left and I was to the right of detective Perez.
Q. Who else was in that room?
A. That’s all I remember.
Q. Was there anyone else present in an adjacent room or - -
A. Yeah. Curt Flynn was running the video and - -
Q. What about Clayton Smith, Ranger Clayton smith. Where was he?
A. Don’t know if he was there or back in our office with Sergeant Apodaca. I don’t know their
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
location.
Q. Okay. And you took notes of what Mr. Lucas said, did you not? A. Some of them. Not verbatim, just took some notes.
Q. Okay, some of the notes. And at this point after having been to the home, then Mr. Lucas changes the direction of where he went off of interstate 10, does he not? He changes it from south - - He changes it from north to south. Isn’t that right?
A. I don’t know were you get north from. As I recall, it was all south.
MS. SIPES: May I approach the witness, Your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes, ma’am.
Q. (BY MS. SIPES) Sir, I hand you what has been testified to earlier in here as a transcript of a recording taken by Sergeant Jimmy Apodaca and Detective Perez on September the 19th, 1984, in Sierra Blanca, Texas.
A. I wasn’t present.
Q. Okay. And I’ll ask you, sir, if you would read for - - does that purport to be a statement taken by those officers of Henry Lee Lucas on that date?
A. Looks like it.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Q. Would you speak up into the mike?
A. Yes, ma’am, it looks like a supplement.
Q. Okay. Does he ask him what day it was that he had gone to the residence here in El Paso?
A. It says BP, which I believe is Benny Perez: “What day was it? Do you remember?”
And HL, which would be Henry Lucas: “That was on the 11th of of January of 1983. In this case, if I recall right, was anywhere from the 5th of May until the 6th of May. May be off a day or two, but I don’t think so. It was when I was coming back from Tucson, Arizona. I had been out there running around and I come back into El Paso and left interstate 10. The best I can remember, I went north of there.”
Q. Okay. So this represents - -
A. “I could be wrong.”
Q. The statement that you took represents a departure in direction. He is going north in that one, is he not?
A. He says, “I could be wrong, but it seems like I turned north.”
Q. Okay. And in your statement, he was going in what direction?
A. South.
Q. But this is after he had been to the
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
victim’s home in a carful of policemen. Isn’t that correct?
That is correct.
Q. Okay. Now, he still insists in the statement that he gave you that he went through the kitchen door, is that right, according to your notes? A. Went around, back door was unlocked, went in through kitchen, went into the living room, heard noise and went - -
Q. Isn’t it true, sir, that all the evidence from the crime scene indicates that nobody went through or left through the kitchen door?
A. As far as I recall, that’s correct.
Q. Am I correct in that?
A. As far as I recall.
Q. So this would be erroneous?
A. This is what he is saying. I’m just copying down what he is saying.
Q. Okay. You continue to make notes, do you not?
A. I believe so.
Q. Okay. And can you interpret that notation right here for me that I marked number 1?
A. Apparently he had just mentioned that he had received one death sentence and he’s got five more.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
He pleaded to two and he has got three convictions.
Q. So he was telling you about his personal history at that point, was he not?
A. Yes, ma’am.
Q. He had one death sentence, he had five more and he had - - Did he tell you how many people - - A. No - -
Q. - - that he had - - murders that he had cleared?
A. He mentioned he had cleared over 185 or “185 cleared and I got over 360.”
Q. So he told you there on the spot while you were taking this statement from him that he had killed 360 people?
A. Over 360.
Q. Did that make you have any inquiry into his mental stability at that point?
A. No ma’am.
Q. Did you ever make any inquiry to see if his fingerprints had ever been picked up at the 185 he cleared or the 365 that he claimed to have done?
A. Not personally, no, ma’am.
Q. Do you know for a fact that there are no fingerprints in any of those so-called murders?
A. He did mention the fact that he always wore
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
gloves.
Q. Do you know whether or not any of those gloves have ever been found in any of the purported crime scenes?
A. I have no knowledge of that.
Q. Do you think that would be important for you to make inquiry into, sir, in determining whether this confession has any validity to it? A. It’s a possibility that Detective Perez did, but I don’t know.
Q. And did you ask him to describe the vehicle has was traveling in?
A. Right.
Q. And did he describe it for you?
A. ’73 maroon, claimed he left at San Jon off of Amarillo.
Q. Okay. Did you ask him where he went after that?
A. That’s now, in reference to leaving from here and that’s when he sold - - advised he had gone to San Antonio and sold the coins and jewelry.
Q. So he told you he left here and went to San Antonio and sold coins and jewelry, is what he was telling you? After he had been to the police department and after he had been videotaped in a
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
confession, he told you that he had gone to San Antonio and had sold coins and jewelry?
The question, I believe, if I recall correctly, was after he left El Paso where did you go, and he mentioned the fact that he had gone to San Antonio.
Q. And did you ask how the car got from San Antonio up to San Jon, New Mexico?
A. No, ma’am, I didn’t.
Q. Did anyone else?
A. As far as I know, no.
Q. Did you ever find any jewelry missing from the crime scene?
A. As far as I can recall, I do recall that some of the family members said that she had some jewelry in the closet there in the bedroom and some monies, but I don’t know if anything ever came up, no, I don’t.
Q. Did you ever read or did you ever give a supplement indicting that jewelry was missing from the crime scene?
A. No, ma’am.
Q, And you have - - The last notation you have here says what, sir?
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Any evidence in car from here.
Q. Did you make any inquiry into that?
A. That would be believed when he started letting us know he had sold some of these items to the waitresses.
Q. So in other words, you asked him if he had anything in the car that he had taken from the victim’s home. Is that right?
A. Right.
Q. And what did he say?
A. He - -
Q. That he had sold it all?
A. I don’t recall exactly what he mentioned he had in the car, because he’d said he had some stuff in the car. But I don’t recall the evidence.
Q. Did you ever learn what evidence was in the car in San Jon that purportedly came from the victim’s house?
A. No, ma’am, I never looked into that. If any of the evidence was found, I believe California handled it first. I don’t know what was found.
Q. Do you know whether any evidence was found in Mr. Lucas’ car that purportedly came from the victim’s home?
A. I have no knowledge of it, no, ma’am.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Q. Do you know of anyone else who does?
A. No ma’am.
Q. Okay. Is that the last of your notes there in this particular notebook on Henry Lucas? Could you check real briefly for me, please?
A. As far as I can tell, yes. There is a date here, but I don’t recall what it was and I don’t know if it’s in reference to this case or not.
Q. What is that, sir?
A. 11-14-85, 10:35, truck stop. I don’t know it it’s in reference to this case or not?
Q. Okay. I believe you have another reference over here, do you not, 8-16-85, 10:00 a.m. Is that on the Henry Lee Lucas case?
A. I have no idea.
Q. You have no idea? Okay. Did you go out to the truck stop, sir, to interview witnesses?
A. I went a couple of times.
Q. Okay. Who was the initial individual that you talked to at the truck stop?
A. I believe we talked to the - - to the manager in trying to find out who he was working and getting their schedules.
Q. Did you get the original time record of the waitresses there at the truck stop?
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Later on, we did. We had to go to the self-storage locker to look for them.
Q. What is the name of the person that you talked to that had a recollection of buying an item from someone she identified as Henry Lee Luca within this time period?
A. I didn’t take those notes down. That was taken care of Detective Perez.
Q. Were you with him?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You don’t recall that person’s name?
A. No, ma’am.
Q. Was she living in El Paso? A. The manager was, the one that was working.
Q. Let’s talk about the very first person that told you that they bought something from Henry Lee Lucas.
A. I think, if I’m not mistaken, detective Perez had to contact them by phone because they had moved out.
Q. Okay.
A. I could be mistaken, though.
Q. You don’t have any notes whatsoever?
A. Not in reference to that, no.
Q. Okay. How many items were identified as
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Having been bought from Henry Lee Lucas at that truck stop?
As far as I can tell, the crockpot, the blender. As far as I know, those were the items that were identified.
Q. Were those items bought by different people/
A. Yes, ma’am.
Q. How was the blender paid for?
A. Oh, there was an iron, too.
Q. Who was the iron paid for?
A. A check, I believe.
Q. Did you discover the date on that check?
A. I didn’t personally. Detective Perez took care of that.
Q. Okay. Detective Perez did. Do you have knowledge of what date was on that check?
A. No ma’am.
Q. You have no idea?
A. No ma’am.
Q. Is it May 27th, May 28th, May 29th?
A. I have no idea.
Q. Or is it a month later, sir?
A. I have no idea.
Q. Do you-all meet and discuss this case, sir?
A. Now and then.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Q. Is it true that the blender and the iron were purportedly bought the same evening as the crockpot?
A. As far as I can tell.
Q. And so, therefore, we can go directly to the date that that check was cashed and find out what night those people bought those items and saw Henry Lee Lucas?
A. I didn’t know.
Q. You don’t know, okay. Sir, you knew that Henry Lee Lucas had been here prior to September of 1984 and had made travels with law enforcement agencies to different crime scenes. Is that true?
A. I had heard that he was brought in by other members of the department.
Q. And that he had given several different confessions that day?
A. I have no knowledge as to that.
Q. Okay. You also knew, didn’t you not, sir, that no bodies were found at those sites/
A. That is correct.
Q. And then in October of 1984 you went one more time with Henry Lee Lucas to several different crime scenes. Is that right? A. Yeah, in the area, because we never did find
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
any crime scenes.
Q. Okay. But he confessed to you that he had murdered five other people in October, did he not, here in El Paso?
A. Don’t recall id it was five.
Q. Do you want to look at your notes of that? A. I don’t think I have any notes.
Q. You have a tape recording of that, do you not?
A. Um-hum.
Q. It was around five or six, was it not, that he confessed to in October? A. I don’t recall if it was five or six.
Q. Could you just check your notes real quickly and give us an estimate, sir?
A. As far as I can tell, just three.
Q. Okay, three. And did that investigation into those confessions turn up any bodies?
A. No ma’am.
Q. Okay. Did you have reason, then, to doubt the validity of the October confessions?
A. I didn’t get your question.
Q. He told you orally on the tape that he had murdered three people here in El Paso. That was in October of ’84. Is that correct?
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Right.
Q. So he confessed to you that he had done this. Is that right?
A. Right.
Q. And you went out to the scenes with him. Is that right?
A. No, ma’am.
Q. And did you check the records here in El Paso to see if there had been any report of any bodies or murders at those scenes? A. Right, we didn’t find any.
Q. And you didn’t find any recorded deaths or murders at those scenes?
A. Not at the scenes.
Q. And based upon that information, did you then have reason to doubt the validity of the confessions he gave to you concerning those murders? A. Well, we were just checking it out, I believe, on a prior trip that he had talked to Detectives Curt Flynn and Lucas and Marquez. He had taken them - - We didn’t know at the time that he had taken them to that same area.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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Q. And did they find any bodies? A. Nat as far as I know.
Q. Did you have a reason, then, to doubt the validity of those confessions? A. Well, we checked it out. We can’t find nothing. We just didn’t find nothing.
Q. Well, are you still looking for those bodies? Let me ask you that.
A. We aren’t. Myself personally, no.
Q. And why is that?
A. Because we never did find them.
Q. Well, do you believe Mr. Lucas committed those murders?
A. I don’t know.
Q. You don’t know.
A. No.
Q. Do you have reason to doubt the validity of those confessions, sir, in October of 1984?
A. If you can’t find the bodies, you’re not going to be able to prove it. You have to find the bodies first, and then you have to check into the body and see who it belongs to. And that’s the only way we can get back to it.
Q. Yet you-all aren’t looking for the bodies, are you?
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Personally, no.
Q. Once up found out that there were no bodies to these confessions in October, did it give you cause to suspect the validity of the September 20th confession? A. There we had - - To me personally, once he took me to that house, okay, he led us right to it. I felt real strongly and I still do.
Q. Okay. But your interview with Henry Lee Lucas was over there at the victim’s house there on the 20th. Is that right?
A. My part of it was the supplement in reference to the route, okay? When we talked to him again, it was covered by Detective Perez.
MS. SIPES: Okay. Thank you, sir.
MR. MOODY: Nothing further of this witness, Your Honor.
MS. SIPES: Just one more.
Where is the tape on the October confessions? DO you have that?
MR. MOODY: Yes, we have that.
MS. SIPES: And may we have copies of the references to the Lucas case in the field notes?
MR. MOODY: Yeah, I don’t have any problems with that.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
THE COURT: All right. Is there anything further?
MS. SIPES: I have nothing further, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Mr. Moody? MR. MOODY: Nothing further of this witness, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Thank you, Officer. You’re excused.
Now, who do you have as your next witness?
MR. MOODY: Jimmy Apodaca.
THE COURT: It’s 11:30. Do you want to at 1:30 or do you want to start right now?
MR. MOODY: I’d like to break it up quite a bit. He’ll be a long witness.
THE COURT: Yeah, I know it’s going to take a day and a half, probably.
MR. MOODY: Well, I guess probably we can start him at 1:30.
THE COURT: Sir? MR. MOODY: We might as well start him at 1:30.
THE COURT: All right. Well, let’s start - - Is he here now? If he’s all ready, let’s tell him. Bring him in and let’s tell him what we are going to
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
do.
(A recess was taken.)
THE COURT: Please raise your right hand.
Have a seat, please.
JIMMY APODACA, JR.,
Having been duly sworn by the Court to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, was examined and testified as follows:
BY MR. MOODY:
Q. Will you state your name, please, sir?
A. My name is Jimmy Apodaca, Jr.
Q. How are you employed, sir?
A. I’m employed by the El Paso Police Department.
Q. How long have you worked with the El Paso Police Department?
A. A little over 22 years.
Q. 22 or 23?
A. 22.
Q. In what division do you work?
A. Crimes against persons.
Q. How long have you worked in crimes against persons?
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Approximately seven years.
Q. Are you the senior sergeant in the crimes against persons division?
A. Yes, sir, I am.
Q. Were you the senior sergeant in crimes against persons division, El Paso Police Department, May 28th, 1983?
A. Yes, sir, I was.
Q. What is the - - Just very briefly, what is the setup of who is in command in crimes against persons and who were the sergeants at that time back on May 28th, ’83?
A. Commander of crimes against persons is Lieutenant John Lanahan.
Q. Okay. Then, of course, we know you were the senior sergeant.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Over what division?
A. Robbery, sex crimes.
Q. Okay. Then were there other sergeants?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Who were they?
A. Sergeant Duane Johnson.
Q. Okay. What was he over? What was his responsibility?
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Homicide.
Q. Was Sergeant Duane Johnson in town on May 28th, 1983? A. I don’t know if he was in town or not, but he was not working. He was - - I believe he was out of town, but I’m not sure.
Q. Was there another sergeant?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Who was that?
A. Sergeant Paul Salcedo.
Q. Was he the junior sergeant?
A. Yes, he was.
Q. He had been there only approximately how long?
A. My recollection, about maybe four of five months.
Q. Now, May 28th, 1983, was a Saturday. Is that correct?
A. I believe so, yes, sir.
Q. Were you on duty that Saturday?
A. I was not.
Q. Were you down here at crimes against persons on that Saturday afternoon?
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
I was called in by Lieutenant Lanahan to come and assist.
Q. Why was that?
A. The lieutenant called me at home and advised me if I - - asked me if I could come and give Sergeant Salcedo a hand. They were handling two homicides that had occurred that evening of the 26th, 27th or sometime in that time frame?
Q. Okay. In other words, there were several homicide that occurred that evening of the 26th, 27th or sometime in that time frame?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Sergeant Salcedo was the only sergeant on duty with Sergeant Johnson out of town or on vacation or whatever?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You don’t normally work Saturdays, do you?
A. No, sir, not unless I get called out.
Q. And El Paso is not like New York or maybe Houston where they just have murders every day, are we?
A. No, sir, we are not.
Q. All right. Is it a rare occurrence that we have two or three homicides occurring within a 24-hour or 48-hour period?
A. It is.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Q. When that does occur, however, are you and your men called in to assist?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. The homicide division?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. In other word, you just don’t leave the crime scene and say, well, we only have one homicide sergeant. We will just wait until he finishes that crime and go on to the next one?
A. We don’t do that, sir.
Q. You have a homicide you try to get detective out to that location. Is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, this is not the first time that you have been involved in homicide investigations, is it? A. No, it’s not.
Q. You have been called to the scene of numerous homicides, have you not? A. Yes, I have.
Q. In a supervisory capacity? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And the decision to call you to the scene is made by who?
A. Lieutenant Lanahan.
Q. Now, when they called you down or when
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Lieutenant Lanahan had you come down, was the Librada Apodaca case, had it already been discovered at that moment?
No, it had not, sir.
Q. So in other words, you were being called down to help on the other couple of homicides that junior Sergeant Salcedo was working on?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And approximately what time did you arrive at CAP? A. Approximately 2:30, 3:00, somewhere around about that time. I don’t recall.
Q. While you were at CAP, did you get to start to assist Sergeant Salcedo in trying to get things working on those other cases?
A. As soon as I walked into the office, Sergeant Salcedo was on the telephone with the dispatcher.
Q. Okay. What was going on?
A. He advised me that another murder was just being reported.
Q. Did he tell you where that murder address was located?
A. He mentioned to me that it was somewhere down in the valley on Irma - - or he didn’t know how
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
to pronounce the name - - on Irma Road or something like that.
Q. Did that alarm you?
A. Sure did.
Q. Why is that?
A. When I heard the name Irma Road, there’s only three families living on that road. That’s my parents and my two - - one aunt and one uncle.
Q. Did he describe what type of murder it was?
A. He was still on the telephone when I walked in.
Q. All right. So as soon as you knew it was on Irma Road, you knew, then, the homicide might well involve a relative of yours?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. I imagine that put you in some degree of shock and concern, did it not?
A. Yes, sir, it did.
Q. What did you do upon hearing that information?
A. I got on the telephone and talked to the dispatcher. Apparently they were getting some information on the units in the field, and I asked him what the address was and the dispatcher advised me that it was 144 Irma Road.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Q. Your first concern was probably for your parents, was it not?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. When you heard the address of 144 Irma Place, did you realize then who it probably was?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Who would that be?
A. My aunt.
Q. What did you do next?
A. Lieutenant Lanahan was in the office, also, and we decided to go to the scene. We were trying to get some men to proceed to the scene.
Q. Were you having trouble because you had people out all over working the other homicides?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And has the El Paso Police Department under Lieutenant Lanahan’s direction used a team concept to the working of murder cases?
MR. PONTON: Your Honor, I object to - - a little leading is fine, but he is leading too much and I object to the leading nature of that question.
THE COURT: Well, I’m going to let him go on with this hearing. Just, Mr. Moody, don’t lead so far. Just give him a little bit of rope.
MR. MOODY: Okay.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Q. (BY MR. MOODY) In what concept does the CAP use in trying to work on its homicide cases?
A. We usually try and use the team concept.
Q. What does that entail?
A. We try to get as many people out to the scene and start the investigation at the scene and start the investigation at the scene as soon as possible, get the investigation going.
Q. All right. Do you pursue it with as many people as possible until - - for how long a period of time?
A. Initially we get as many people as we need at the scene until some leads develop or we get a suspect.
Q. Now, before Lieutenant Lanahan came to crimes against persons, was that the concept used?
A. I don’t know, sir. I wasn’t there.
Q. Since he has been there, has the overall rate of murder cases solved been very high?
A. Yes, it has.
Q. As high or higher than anyplace in the country?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Who drove down to Irma, Irma Road?
A. Lieutenant Lanahan.
Q. And when you got to 144 Irma Road, what did
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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you first see and what did you do?
Well, there was a bunch of people there crying and some officers were protecting the scene.
Q. Did you recognize some of the people that were very upset?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you notice if your parents were there?
A. Yes, they were.
Q. Were they upset?
A. Yes, they were.
Q. Were your parents very close - - Did they spend a lot of time with the deceased in this case?
A. Yes, sir, they did.
Q. They lived, what, next door to each other?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. For how long had they been neighbors?
A. Since they’d been married, about approximately, I would say, 53, 54 years.
Q. What did you then try to do initially at the crime scene?
A. At the crime scene, Lieutenant Lanahan was the man in charge. He was ranking officer at the scene, so I was trying to make some assignments along with Lieutenant Lanahan to try to canvass the area, get the - - trying to get the crime people assigned to
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
the crime scene.
Q. All right. Do you recall anything else that you were doing?
A. Besides talking to some of the relatives, that’s about it.
Q. Did you try to calm and comfort some of the relatives?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Did you spend most of your time trying to get them calmed down?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. Did you go in to the crime scene itself?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. How long did you spend inside the crime scene?
A. Approximately 30 to 45 minutes, somewhere around there.
Q. All right. When was it that you were assigned the supervisory responsibility for this case?
A. The same day, sir.
Q. Did you ask to be put in charge of the case or - -
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And - - But whose decision was that?
A. Lieutenant Lanahan’s.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Q. If Lieutenant Lanahan would not have allowed you to work the case, would you have worked on it?
A. I would not.
Q. Did you insist that you be given the case?
A. No, sir.
Q. Was there really anybody else to assign the case to, I mean, that didn’t already have work, other cases pending? Were there any other supervisors?
A. Besides Sergeant Salcedo, he’s the only one that would have handled the case, but he was already working two other homicides.
Q. When you are the supervisor of a case, whether it was the Librada Apodaca case or a robbery case or a kidnapping case or any other homicide case that you may have also supervised, what is your duty, your responsibilities in those cases?
A. Initially it’s just to assign the case to the officers and assist - - if they need any type of assistance, just provide them with any assistance in any way I can, and then they keep me informed as to the progress of the case.
Q. But do you keep notes as such as to the progress that is occurring?
A. No, sir, I don’t.
Q. You rarely end up testifying in court. Is
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
that right?
Right. I never hardly testify in court. Well, occasionally. I shouldn’t say never. Occasionally I testify.
Q. You don’t normally get involved in collecting the evidence, taking the statements, following up on the information?
A. No, sir, I don’t.
Q. Who assigned Detective Benito Perez to be the agent in charge of this case?
A. I did.
Q. Why did you assign this case to Benito Perez?
A. Number one, he is one of my subordinates.
Q. Okay. When Lieutenant Lanahan gave this case to you, was it with the understanding that your division or your unit would work it?
A. Well, when he assigned the case to me, I’m the supervisor so I can assign whoever I want to assign to the case.
Q. And when you have in the past taken cases like this, have you assigned the people in your division, robbery, sex crimes, rather than assigning someone like Greg Lucas or Curtis Flynn or somebody to a case? You don’t assign them, do you?
A. No, sir, I don’t.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Q. They are not really under your direct supervision?
A. They are not.
Q. Was there any particular reason why you assigned Benito Perez to head up this investigation?
A. Besides being one of the subordinates, he was an excellent investigator, very thorough.
Q. Was he one of your senior people?
A. Yes, she has got the most experience as an investigator.
Q. Senior investigator in your division in robbery?
A. Yes, in robbery.
Q. Did you also assign him someone else who had homicide experience?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Who was that?
A. Detective Joe Bailon.
Q. He had worked homicide for many years?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Were you aware the Greg Lucas and Curtis Flynn and Marvin Beltran at one time were working on a case, Elizabeth Allen case?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. Were you really involved or your division at
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
all really involved in that case, though?
No, we were not. My section - -Not my section - - The division was involved.
Q. Right.
A. But not my section.
Q. And at one time Henry Lucas was questioned by those officers, was he not?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Were they given - - Or where was the file kept, physically kept, the Librada Apodaca case kept? Where was case file? Where was all of it kept so long as it was under your section?
A. Detective Perez kept the file.
Q. And other unsolved homicides, were they kept somewhere else?
A. They were kept in the homicide office.
Q. And did you-all ever give the Librada Apodaca case over to Detectives Lucas and Beltran and Flynn to - - so they could talk to Henry Lucas about it?
A. No, sir, we did not.
Q. Did you ever personally discuss in detail those with any of the other officers in homicide, the Librada Apodaca case?
A. No, sir.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Q. The only people that you - - Who were the only people you were discussing the Librada Apodaca case with?
A. Just my group, my investigators.
Q. And who in your group primarily had responsibility of the case after, let’s say, the first couple of months?
A. Detective Perez.
Q. Was Detective Uribe assigned to support him?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Were any other officers in your division actively working that case?
A. Detective Bailon was working with - - also. He was also assisting Detective Perez on the case.
Q. Though was he - - did he later leave the case?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. I think he retired from the police department?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Any other officers? A. Actively involved, no, sir, just us.
Q. Just those two? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you keep, I guess Lieutenant Lanahan, advised on any progress in the case?
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Yes, sir, I did.
Q. Did you ever call the Texas Ranger task force regarding Henry Lee Lucas prior to September 18th, 1984?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Did you ever discuss the Henry Lee Lucas case with any other outside officer from any other agency other that Jerry Smith? A. No, I did not, sir.
Q. When was it and why did you discuss the case with Lieutenant Jerry Smith of the Odessa Police Department?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Yes. When was that approximately and why did - - how did it come up?
A. Detective Perez was working on the subject and he sent some flyers to Odessa where the suspect was supposedly headed for. He sent some flyers out there. Apparently the flyers were distributed with - - to the officers of the Odessa Police Department, but unknown who. We received a phone call from Jerry Smith saying that one of the officers picked up a person who had - - might have seen this suspect in Odessa.
Q. Okay. Now, had you known Jerry Smith before
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
this?
I had met Jerry Smith once before when he and his supervisor came to El Paso on one occasion.
Q. How long previous to the summer of ’84 had that been, just approximately?
A. Approximately two years or a year. I don’t recall.
Q. Had you spent a lot of time socializing with him or doing anything with him on that other occasion two years previous?
A. I did not socialize with him nor spend a lot of time with him.
Q. Other than just meeting him, did you do anything else with him?
A. Nothing, sir.
Q. Had you had any other involvement with him at all after September - - or I mean, prior to September - - Pardon me - - prior to the summer of 1983 when you went over to Odessa?
A. No, sir.
Q. Hadn’t gone to conventions with him or seen him at other police functions or anything like that?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did you and Detective Perez then go to Odessa sometime in the summer of 1983?
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Yes, we did.
Q. All right. And did you meet with Lieutenant Jerry Smith?
A. Yes, we did.
Q. What happened at that meeting?
A. In Odessa, we were in Jerry Smith’s office. We were - - Benny Perez was interviewing the person that seem this so-called suspect, and Jerry and I were in the office. Jerry had been in El Paso a month before and he used to work homicide in Odessa and - - as a sergeant. He had been promoted to lieutenant since he was in El Paso and was assigned to the narcotics division.
So we just sat down in his office and I told him a little - - gave him information on the case that - - in question right now.
Q. All right. What information did you give him about this case?
A. Told him that my aunt had been murdered in her home.
Q. Okay. It was your aunt that had been murdered?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. That was in her home?
A. Yes, sir.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Q. What other details?
A. With the axe.
Q. An axe. Did you give him any other details?
A. I think I told him that she had been sexually assaulted.
Q. All right. Did you either mention her age or imply that was an older lady?
A. I don’t recall if I mentioned her age or not.
Q. Did you discuss anything about whether a burglary was involved? A. No, sir.
Q. Did you give him anything else other than those very basic facts?
A. That’s all.
Q. The facts that you gave him - - Let’s see. Some of those - - The fact that it was in her home had already come out in the newspapers in El Paso. Correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. That was nothing beyond public knowledge. Had the fact that it was an axe murder come out in the - -
A. Yes, sir.
Q. - - in the press? Had the fact that she was your aunt, had that come out?
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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I don’t know if it had or not, sir. I don’t recall.
Q. Her name, though, had been in the paper?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Her name, Librada Apodaca, and your name, Santiago Apodaca, the same name? A. Yes, sir.
Q. The only thing that you gave him that had not appeared in the newspaper was the sexual assault aspect. Is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. That had not been revealed? A. Had not been revealed.
Q. The information in the initial news reports, however, didn’t give any more detail that what we have just discussed here, axe murder in her residence?
A. I’m sorry. I don’t understand your question.
Q. The initial newspaper, television accounts of the case back when it happened, May 28th, 1983, they were not made privy to the details of this case, were they?
A. No, sir.
Q. Other than the basics, the address, an axe murder, her name, very few - - that was basically all?
A. Yes, sir.
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Q. Now, did - - are you certain that you didn’t give Lieutenant Jerry Smith any further information on it?
A. Yes, I’m certain.
Q. After you gave him this basic information, did he respond to you in any way?
A. Well, he brought out the name of Henry Lucas.
Q. All right. When he brought out that name, what did you say about it?
A. He asked if we ever thought about Henry Lucas committing this murder.
Q. What did you tell him in response to that question?
A. We had not.
Q. What, did he give any response, then, back to you on that?
A. Well, he said that he had just talked to Mr. Lucas and that he had solved one or two cases in Odessa with him.
Q. Did he ask your permission to do anything?
A. Well, he said that he had an appointment to meet with Mr. Lucas in a couple months.
Q. And did he say anything else?
A. He asked me if it was all right with me if he would ask him - - if he asked him if he had ever
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Committed a murder in El Paso.
Q. And how did you respond to this?
A. I said yes, if you want to ask him, go ahead and ask him.
Q. Did Jerry Smith ever call back requesting a bunch of detailed information about the case?
A. No, sir, he did not.
Q. Now, did he call on or about the 18th of April - - Pardon me - - the 18th of September, 1983?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. 1983?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did he talk to you?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. And what did he tell you?
A. He said that he was going to meet with Mr. Lucas that night and wanted to know if we had solved our murder case.
Q. And what did you say?
A. I said that we had not solved it yet.
Q. Was there any further conversation?
A. He asked me if it was all right if he would go ahead and ask Mr. Lucas if he had committed any murders in El Paso.
Q. And what did you say?
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Go ahead.
Q. Did he ask for any specific piece of information at that time?
A. He wanted to know the date that it occurred.
Q. Did you give him that date?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. You gave him May, what, the 27th?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. 1983?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did he want to know any further information?
A. That’s it.
Q. All right. Then did you hear back from Jerry Smith later, either on the night of the 18th or early morning hours of the 19th of September?
A. Yes. Yes, I did.
Q. How was that?
A. He called me at home.
Q. Where you were?
A. I was at home.
Q. Did he wake you up or what?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. What did he tell you?
A. He told me that he had just finished interviewing Mr. Lucas and had asked him about El
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Paso and that Mr. Lucas had advised him that just prior to him being arrested that he had killed an old lady in El Paso.
Q. Did he tell you anything else?
A. He told me he killed her with an axe and he had sex with her.
Q. Anything else that you can recall?
A. He advised me that he - - it would be better for us to go down and interview Mr. Lucas, that he looked pretty good but that it would be better for us to interview him because he didn’t know any facts about the case and he didn’t want to mess up the case for us.
Q. Did he even tell you at that time that he had tape recorder that interview?
A. I think he did tell me about that.
Q. Did he play the tape recording back to you over the telephone? A. No, he did not.
Q. Did you ever hear that tape recording until we requested it to be sent to us?
A. No, sir, I had not heard that recording.
Q. Until what, quite a bit later or a little bit later?
A. I don’t recall when it was that we finally
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played it.
Q. Certainly it wasn’t by the next day, September 20th?
A. No sir, it was not.
Q. All right. Did you have occasion then to talk to a Texas Ranger about - -
A. Yes, sir.
Q. - - about making arrangements to see Henry Lucas on September 20th?
A. Yes, sir. Mr. - - Lieutenant Smith said that the rangers were - - had Mr. Lucas in custody and that I would have to talk to them to make arrangements, for us to make arrangements to make an appointment with Mr. Lucas so we can talk to him about the case.
Q. All right. So did you talk to the ranger?
A. I did.
Q. Which ranger? Do you recall now?
A. Clayton Smith.
Q. What arrangements did you make with Clayton Smith?
A. We made arrangements for us to meet them in Sierra Blanca the following day or the next day.
Q. Did you set up a time at that time or did you set it up later?
A. Yes, sir. He said that they should be in
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Sierra Blanca sometime in the afternoon at approximately 4:00.
Q. Did you then go ahead and contact Benny Perez at that time that night or did you wait until the next morning?
A. I waited until the morning.
Q. And did you make the arrangements for yourself and Detective Perez to go to Sierra Blanca that - - late on the afternoon of September 20th?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. When you went up there, did you take the case file with you?
A. I didn’t take anything with me.
Q. Did Detective Perez? A. Not that I recall. I don’t know, sir.
Q. Did you-all take crime scene photos?
A. Not to my knowledge.
Q. You didn’t?
A. I didn’t take any crime - -
Q. Were you present when Detective Perez questioned Henry Lucas?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. And did he question him before you went to the audiotaped interview?
A. Yes, he did.
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Q. Did he - - So at first there was a pretape interview?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And was there a posttape-recorded interview?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you do any of the questioning or who primarily did the questioning?
A. Most of all the questioning was done by Detective Perez.
Q. Did Detective Perez feed Henry Lucas the information of the case?
A. He did not.
Q. And after having the interview with Henry Lucas, what was - - what were your thoughts regarding his involvement in this case?
A. I believed that Henry Lucas knew a lot about this crime scene and that he was a good suspect.
Q. Did the issue of whether or not Henry Lucas could take you to the crime scene come up that afternoon?
A. Yes, it did.
Q. What - - How did that come out and what
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developed from that?
Detective Perez asked Mr. Lucas if he could find the crime scene in El Paso. He replied could. Then he said it was a 99 percent chance he could find that, the scene. So he asked him if he was willing to come to El Paso and find the scene for us. He said he would.
Q. Did you terminate the interviews with Henry Lucas? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And was Henry Lucas warned of his rights by Detective Perez or yourself?
A. By Detective Perez.
Q. Was he warned before - - well, when you first met him?
A. Yes, sir. He warned him of his rights right away.
Q. Then did he warn him again on the tape recording?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did Henry Lucas state that he understood his rights?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did he state that he wanted to waive or give up those rights?
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Yes, he did.
Q. Did he voluntarily give you the statements? A. Yes, he did.
Q. Di d you-all threaten him, coerce him or promise him anything in exchange for his statements? A. No, sir.
Q. Did you then have the opportunity to confer with Ranger Clayton Smith again?
A. Yes, we did.
Q. Why is that?
A. We were trying to make arrangements for the rangers or Mr. Smith, Clayton Smith, to bring Mr. Lucas to El Paso.
Q. Were those arrangements formalized that afternoon?
A. Yes, they were.
Q. And what was the plan?
A. They would be in El Paso sometime around noon.
Q. And where would they arrive?
A. At, what is it, Southwest Air Rangers, the airport - - there at the airport.
Q. All right. Did you go back to El Paso that evening?
A. Yes, we did.
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Q. Did you make arrangements to see if Henry Lucas could take you to the crime scene the next day?
A. Yes, we did.
Q. Were you at the airport when Henry Lucas and Clayton Smith arrived?
A. Yes, sir, we were.
Q. Arrived after his arrival. Did you have several vehicles there to travel in?
A. Yes, we did.
Q. Who got in which vehicles, do you recall?
A. At the airport?
Q. Yeah.
A. Lucas, Jerry Smith - - I’m sorry, Clayton Smith, Detective Perez and Uribe got in one car, and the pilot and myself went in my car, I believe. I don’t recall exactly.
Q. Okay. But you definitely did not go in the same vehicle with Henry Lucas?
A. No, I did not.
Q. After having lunch, did you proceed to the Chevron truck stop located at 6666 Gateway East?
A. Yes, we did.
Q. And again were you in the vehicle with Henry Lucas or a separate vehicle?
A. I was in a separate vehicle.
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Q. Who was with you?
A. One of the rangers, the pilot of the airplane. I don’t recall his name.
Q. During the trip did you get on the radio or in any way communicate to the other vehicle as to where to go or where to turn or anything like that?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Did you follow that vehicle?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Were you ever leading the vehicle?
No, sir, I was not.
Q. Always in the trailing position?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you recall the part of the trip when the vehicle with Henry Lucas in it stopped on Old Pueblo Road?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And Henry Lucas and the other people in that vehicle exited the vehicle?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you also exit your vehicle?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. What happened at that point?
A. We walked towards the victim’s home.
Q. Did you or anyone else suggest or comment to
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Henry Lucas or direct him in any way towards 144 Irma Place?
No, we did not.
Q. Who was leading this walk towards the home?
A. Mr. Lucas.
Q. And when he arrived at 144 Irma Place, what, if anything, happened?
A. He said, “This is the house.”
Q. Did he make any other comments that you recall?
A. We were all standing outside the house waiting for the people that live at the house now. And we were standing on the west side of the house and Mr. Lucas pointed at a window located on the - - facing the east of the house on the - - facing the south of the house on the east corner and then he said, “That is the bedroom where the lady was.”
Q. Could you tell from looking at the outside of the house that there was a bedroom in that area?
A. No, you couldn’t.
Q. Based on your being in the house even prior to the murder, was he pointing to the correct bedroom?
A. Yes, he was.
Q. Did he say anything else?
A. He said that the house looked different than
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when he was there.
Q. Did he say how it looked different?
A. That - - He said something about the paint, that it had been painted.
Q. Had the house, in fact, been painted a different color?
A. Yes, sir, it had.
Q. Were there any other objects he was looking for that seemed different?
A. He was looking for a wooden fence.
Q. Did you-all go over to an area in attempts to locate the remnants of a wooden fence?
A. In back of the house, I believe.
Q. Do you recall what Henry Lucas’ comments were when he was in that area?
A. He said the fence, the wooden fence ran right along here at the side of the house.
Q. Was he correct about that fact?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did he mention any facts as to why he knew the fence was there?
A. He had jumped the fence, went over the fence.
Q. Was there any information that you remembered from the crime scene that was - - any evidence that was collected in the area where the
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fence was?
Yes, there was a little piece of jewelry that was found just outside the home close to the wooden fence.
Q. Did you-all go into the home?
A. Yes, we did.
Q. Did you have permission of the lady that was the current occupier of the home?
A. Yes, we did.
Q. What transpired inside the home, as best you recall?
A. Mr. Lucas was with Detective Perez and Uribe in front, as I was in back, staying in the back just following him around. I don’t recall what the conversation was all about.
Q. Do you remember any of it or - -
A. I don’t recall what was inside the house. He was just showing them different rooms.
Q. Who was showing who?
A. Mr. Lucas was showing the investigators.
Q. Was Henry Lucas then transported back to the crimes against persons office?
A. Yes, he was.
Q. Where a videotaped interview was had? A. Yes, sir.
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Q. Was he talked to other than during the interview, the videotaped interview by Detective Perez?
A. I don’t understand what you mean by was he talked to.
Q. Did Detective Perez talk to him at all other than the videotaped interview that late afternoon, early evening there at the crimes against persons office?
A. I don’t know if he did or not. I don’t know. But Detective Perez took over the - -Mr. Lucas, and I don’t recall if there was any conversation between them.
Q. All right. Were you present with the videotape interview? A. I was not.
Q. Do you ever remember a discussion - - Were you present during a discussion about the - - whether or not Henry Lucas acted by himself or alone in regards to this case?
A. If I recall correctly, sometime during that day I was in the office with Detective Perez and Mr. Lucas when Detective Perez asked him if he was - - if he committed the offense by himself.
Q. Do you recall what his reply, what Mr.
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Lucas’ reply to that was?
He says, “I told you what I did. It’s up to you to find out if anybody else was with me,” or something to that, you know.
Q. It’s up to you to find out what?
A. “If somebody else was with me,” or “who else was with me,” or something to that effect. I don’t really recall exactly what his words were.
Q. Had you always, in your opinion, suspected that more than one person was involved in this homicide? A. We believed that there was more than one person involved, yes, sir.
Q. You have been involved in the interrogation of - - or watched interrogations of many defendants, whether it’s for robbery or kidnapping or even a homicide, have you not?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And is it unusual for them to talk about their part in a case but not want to talk about their accomplices?
A. Sometimes the do talk about the accomplices.
Q. Sometimes they do and sometimes they won’t?
A. Right.
Q. Do you remember being at the CAP offices on
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The night of October 25th, 1984, the night that Henry Lucas was taken before the El Paso County Grand Jury?
Yes, sir.
Q. Did you go before the El Paso County Grand Jury?
A. No, I did not.
Q. You did not testify as a witness? A. No, I did not.
Q. Did not go into the room when Mr. Lucas - - Or did you go into the room when Mr. Lucas was testifying?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Were any other family members present at crimes against persons that evening?
A. No, sir.
Q. Was Henry Lucas coerced, intimidated or promised anything in exchange for testifying before the grand jury?
A. No, sir.
MR. MOODY: Pass the witness.
THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, let’s take a break for a few minutes and we will get right back into it.
(A recess was taken.)
THE COURT: We can start at the
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cross-examination.
Let me tell you: There has been a request made, Ms. Sipes, that we quit at 4:00 today. Is that agreeable with you-all?
MS. SIPES: Certainly, Your Honor.
THE COURT: If it is, Mr. Moody, is that all right?
MR. MOODY: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Let’s see if we can quit about 4:00 and start early tomorrow morning.
Okay. Go right ahead.
BY MS. SIPES:
Q. Mr. Apodaca - - Or Sergeant Apodaca - - Excuse me - - you had been with the police department how long when you first became involved in the investigation of your aunt, Librada Apodaca’s death?
A. Well, I have been on 22 years. This happened approximately three years ago, so approximately 19 years.
Q. 19 years. And you were with the crimes against persons, is that correct?
A. Yes, sir - - Yes, ma’am.
Q. Tell us a little bit about the structure of
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the crimes against persons division. How is it set up?
We got the homicide division, homicide section, and the robbery, sex crimes section.
Q. Robbery and sex crimes is one division and homicide is another are there three?
A. There is three sections.
Q. And Lieutenant Lanahan is in charge over all of the crimes against persons. Is that correct?
A. Yes, ma’am.
Q. And you’re in charge of robbery. Is that right?
A. And sex crimes.
Q. You’re in charge of both of those units?
A. Yes, ma’am.
Q. And that is your job assignment in May of 1983?
A. Yes, ma’am.
Q. Who is in charge of homicides?
A. The sergeant?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. We have two sergeants, Duane Johnson and at that time, it was Sergeant Paul Salcedo.
Q. How many detectives work in the homicide division other than those two sergeants?
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I think about 12, 13 or 14, somewhere around there. I don’t know.
Q. And approximately how many detectives work in the robbery division?
A. Four.
Q. And how many detectives work in the sex crimes division?
A. Three.
Q. Okay. And your experience with regard to homicide was exactly what in May of 1983?
A. I used to be assigned to the homicide section before I went to robbery, sex crimes.
Q. Can you tell us a little bit about that, what you did?
A. I - - When I first came up to crimes against persons was in September of 1979. I was assigned to the homicide division - - I mean, homicide section. I was assigned the task of investigating every homicide what came up. And if it was not solved within a certain amount of time, it would be turned over to another sergeant at time.
Q. And how long did you have those duties? A. Approximately two and a half or three years.
Q. So it’s your testimony, then, that you were well experienced in the investigation of homicide as
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a general rule?
Well, I supervised homicide, yes, ma’am.
Q. How many homicides were you supervising in 1983?
A. I don’t recall if - - I don’t recall if I handled any homicides or not.
Q. Well - -
A. I don’t recall. I would have to check the list.
Q. Okay. And during your 19 years of experience there in May of 1983, had you ever known a relative to be in charge of an investigation that involved a victim who was a relative and suspects who were relatives?
A. I have never known of that. I don’t know if there have been or not been.
Q. Is that the - - Is that a factual rendition of what happened here?
A. I don’t understand your question. I’m sorry.
Q. In the Librada Apodaca murder, is it true that you were assigned the supervisor?
A. Yes, ma’am.
Q. Supervisory position to investigate the death of a victim who was a relative and to investigate suspects who were relatives?
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I was given the task of being the supervisor of the case.
Q. And is it true, sir, that the victim was relative and that suspects were also relatives?
A. The victim was a relative.
Q. And as in the latter part of the question true, also, sir?
A. Everybody was a suspect at that time?
Q. I’ll ask you to answer me yes or no, sir.
A. I don’t understand what you’re asking me.
Q. Were there suspects who were related to you?”
A. Again, everybody was a suspect. All family members and everybody else was a suspect.
Q. Were there particular family members who were suspects in that investigations that were dealt with in this matter?
A. Initially?
Q. Initially and ongoing.
A. Detective Perez is the one who handled all the investigation. He would be the one to answer that.
Q. Sir, I’m going to ask you. You were supervising this investigation, were you not?
A. This and other cases, yes, ma’am.
Q. And didn’t you tell me at your deposition
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earlier this year that this was a case of particular importance to you?
I was concerned with the case, yes, ma’am.
Q. And didn’t you tell me also that you had asked for this assignment and told detective - - or Lieutenant Lanahan that you could handle this even though relatives were involved?
A. I didn’t say that, ma’am. I said that I could handle the case.
Q. Even though your aunt was the victim?
A. Yes, ma’am.
Q. You told me that, didn’t you?
A. Yes, ma’am.
Q. And do you know as a supervisor, having access to the file and having made all of these trips and participated in the investigation as the record has shown, whether or not there were suspects who were related to you, i.e., Dawn Russell and Robert Avalos?
A. I don’t know what you’re asking me. I’m sorry. You lost me.
Q. I don’t mean to confuse you. Were there suspects in the murder or your aunt who were related to you?
A. Everybody was a suspect, again. Relatives
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and other people were suspects.
Q. Were there particular relatives that you investigated, i.e., Dawn Russell?
A. I didn’t investigate Dawn Russell, no, ma’am.
Q. You as a supervisor, did the detectives that you were in charge of investigating Dawn Russell - -
A. They checked her out, yes, ma’am.
Q. And did they investigate Robert Avalos?
A. They checked him out, yes, ma’am.
Q. A grandson of the victim?
A. They checked him out, yes, ma’am.
Q. And did they check out our uncle, Joe Apodaca?
A. Yes, ma’am, they did.
Q. And were they all considered prime suspects in the killing of Librada Apodaca?
A. I don’t understand what you mean by prime suspects.
Q. Did you or other detectives spend over two hours investigating those individuals?
A. I didn’t spend any time investigating them.
Q. Sir, when I say, “you,” I’m talking about you as the supervisor and the work done by you and your detectives. I’m not trying to trick you and when you rephrase my question, you know, and say
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you personally didn’t do something, it just makes me ask the question again.
Did you or any of your people working for you do that, sir?
Yes, they did.
Q. Thank you. Did you tell anyone at the scene that you had a clue on the afternoon that the body was discovered that the murder had been done by Robert Avalos?
A. I mentioned that name to Lieutenant Lanahan, yes, ma’am.
Q. And did you tell him what that clue was?
A. That he had a record.
Q. Well, I’m not talking - -
A. That he was involved in drugs.
Q. But there was a clue which you had found at the crime scene which was indicative of the murder having been done by a relative or yours, Robert Avalos?
A. I don’t recall.
Q. You don’t recall any such clue?
A. No, ma’am.
Q. Sir, there was an individual there at the front door of the Apodaca home making a list of who-all went in and out of the premises. Who was
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that officer?
I don’t recall his name.
Q. What unit would he have been assigned to?
A. I don’t recall that.
Q. Do you have any idea where that notebook would be?
A. No, I don’t.
Q. If I were to ask you to make inquiry about its whereabouts, do you think you could find that for us?
A. Could be with the case, I guess. It should be with the case.
MS. SIPES: DO you have it?
MS. PENNOCK: Yes.
MR. MOODY: I think you-all have it. I have not seen it in a long time.
MS. SIPES: What’s that Ms. Pennock? We do not have it and have not looked at it and we have no receipt as having given it to us.
Q. (BY MS. SIPES) Sir, do you recall on June 2nd of 1983 that Detective Valdez made a composite drawing of two suspects? DO you recall that?
A. I don’t know.
Q. Do you recall making any assignments on the scene on the 28th of different individuals to
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conduct?
I think most of the assignment was done by Lieutenant Lanahan at that time.
Q. Did he assign anyone to make a canvass of the area neighbors for any evidence relating to suspects or witnesses?
A. I’m sure we did assign somebody.
Q. Okay. Do you recall any descriptions of suspects that came out of that canvass?
A. No, I don’t.
Q. You recall none?
A. I don’t recall if there were any or not.
Q. You don’t recall of there were any. Do you recall Lieutenant Lanahan assigning an individual to take statements from certain family members?
A. There were some family members that were brought into the station, yes, ma’am.
Q. Do you recall who was given that assignment?
A. I remember Detective Charlie Haro was one of them, but I don’t know who the other ones were.
Q. How do you spell that last name, sir?
A. H A R O.
Q. H A R O?
A. yes, ma’am.
Q. Is he with the CAP?
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He retired.
Q. Was he with CAP at that time?
A. Yes, ma’am, he was.
Q. And do you recall whether statements were made of family members there at the scene?
A. The statements were all taken in the office, I believe, in our crimes against persons office.
Q. Okay. And do you recall whether Dawn Russell gave a statement or not?
A. I don’t recall if she did or not.
Q. Did you ever check to see whether she did or not?
A. No, I don’t - - I didn’t.
Q. Can you tell us why she was a suspect?
A. Well, she wasn’t a suspect. We found her fingerprints on a little figurine that was at the scene.
Q. You also found then on a jewelry box, did you not?
A. Not that I know of. They could have been, but I don’t recall if it was or not.
Q. Okay. And do you recall what the fingerprints expert told you about those fingerprints?
A. No, I don’t.
Q. You don’t recall him telling you that they
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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were fresh?
No, I don’t recall that. I didn’t talk to the fingerprint expert.
Q. Was Dawn Russell ever hypnotized and questioned about the murder of Librada Apodaca?
A. Not to my knowledge.
MS. PENNOCK: Just for the purposes of the record, in response to Ms. Sipes earlier sidebar comments that a list of people who had come and gone the from the scene had not been provided and that I did not have a receipt of it, I would like the record to reflect that she has it in your hand now studying it, that we took it from the file and gave it to them.
And I’d like to state that I recall that that has been in the file for some time and that I believe the Court’s orders are that we have to make that entire file available and has been available.
I don’t believe it has been our responsibility to point out each item to Ms. Sipes. Unless she requested it, it would not been receipted to her.
MR. MOODY: I just note on the outside of the file on 2-23-86 - -
MS. SIPES: Does it refer to this?
MR. MOODY: It refers to this file. I
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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Didn’t record every page.
THE COURT: Well, certainly the record will reflect that. I have no idea of knowing what the problem is.
MR. MOODY: I don’t think it’s a major problem.
THE COURT: Sir?
MR. MOODY: I don’t think it’s a major problem.
THE COURT: I don’t know. I mean, if she is seeing it for the first time, it may have been in the file and she is just now seeing it. I don’t know. So I’m not going to get into those little arguments along that line with any of them.
Q. (BY MS. SIPES) Sir, would it be correct to say that you went into the home of Librada Apodaca at about 3:44 on the afternoon of the 28th of 1983?
A. Approximately sometime around there. I don’t recall exactly the time.
Q. And would it be true to say that you probably entered through the front door?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And that that front door had a burglar alarm devices on it?
A. Yes, it did.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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Q. And that it had a chain hook which was neatly placed in place so that it would not go off?
A. The front door?
Q. The burglar alarm.
A. On the front door?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. Are you asking me if it was on? Was I waiting for it to go off?
Q. That it was off, sir?
A. Off?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. it was off, yes.
Q. Did you find anything that would indicate that there had been a struggle or any blows in the living room?
A. We found some blood - - I saw some blood on the, I believe it was, on the wall.
Q. And which wall was that, sir, of the living room?
A. That would be the wall coming from the hallway.
Q. Has there ever been a supplement made that details or indicates where blood was placed in that home?
A. I don’t know if there was or not.
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Q. Okay. But you definitely recall blood in the living room itself?
A. As far as I can recall, yes, ma’am. I’m not positive, but I think there was some blood there.
Q. And can you tell us how much and on what wall?
A. I don’t know how much blood and I already explained which wall. I believe it was on the wall in the hallway that goes from the hallway to the living room.
Q. But it was actually in the living room?
A. As far as I can recall, yes, ma’am.
Q. And would you describe that as a lot of blood or a small amount of blood or how would you describe it, to the best of your recollection?
A. I don’t know how much a lot of blood is, but there was some blood.
Q. Can you describe it for us? Can you have any recollection of how much it was?
A. No, I can’t describe it.
Q. Okay. Did it indicate to you that there had been a struggle in that living room?
A. My recollection was that somebody had been running or walking by there or something. Apparently smears of blood on the wall, it will make a - -
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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Q. Smears?
A. - - not smears, but when somebody, what, strikes something and blood spatters on the wall.
Q. Cast off staining?
A. Something like that.
Q. IS that what you would call it in homicide terms? A. I don’t know what it’s called.
Q. Have you ever had any training in blood stains as a member of the homicide? A. Yes, we have, but I just don’t remember the exact phrase on that.
Q. But it wasn’t smears, it was something that came from a weapon?
A. Yes, ma’am. It splattered, you know, downward. That’s what I can recall.
Q. Did you notice any blood on the carpet there in the living room or upon any other items?
A. There were some blood in the carpet in the living room.
Q. Where was it? A. Right there where she was laying.
Q. Okay. She was found in the living room? A. Yes, ma’am.
Q. As opposed to the den. Is that what you’re
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telling us?
Yes, ma’am.
Q. Okay. Now, there were two living areas. Is that correct?
A. We have the living room and a little dining room and the den.
Q. Okay. Now, which room had the television in it so we can define what we are talking about?
A. The den.
Q. The den?
A. Yes ma’am.
Q. Which room had the organ in it?
A. The organ was in the living room.
Q. Did you see any blood in the kitchen? A. I don’t think that I saw any blood in the kitchen.
Q. Can you tell us what the back door looked like? What condition was it in?
A. When I was inside the house, the back door was locked.
Q. Okay. Was the burglar alarm intact?
A. Yes, it was.
Q. Okay. And can you tell us whether there was any blood anywhere else in the house, and if so, just describe it very briefly?
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Besides the bedroom, living room, the wall, and I believe there was some blood in the bathroom or something where somebody apparently had washed off.
Q. There was blood in the bathroom?
A. It appears to be that - - I recall that there was some. There might have been some blood in the sink of the bathroom.
Q. Okay. And was there any - - was there a bloody towel in that bathroom?
A. I don’t recall.
Q. Okay. There was blood in a bedroom, I believe you said?
A. Yes, ma’am.
Q. And do you recall how much blood?
A. There was a lot of blood in there.
Q. A lot of blood. A lot more blood there than in the living room?
A. Yes, ma’am.
Q. Okay. Did it indicate to you that there had been a struggle there?
A. It appeared there had been, that somebody had been attacked there, yes, ma’am.
Q. Did you have the opportunity to look into a third bedroom which did not have a bed in it?
A. Yes, I did.
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Q. And what, if anything, did you see in there, sir?
A. What I can recall - - This is what I can recall. I don’t have any notes or anything, so - - but I can recall seeing a sewing basket, a half gallon of milk and some, I think it was tomato juice.
Q. A little six-pack of individual cans of tomato juice?
A. Yes, ma’am.
Q. A little porcelain or ceramic swan? A. I believe that’s what it was, a little swan.
Q. A little jewelry box? A. Yes, ma’am, or a jewelry or sewing box, one. I don’t recall what it was.
Q. And a blanket?
A. I don’t remember. I don’t remember the blanket.
Q. Do you recall whether the organ was in place or not?
A. No, I don’t recall.
Q. And a relative or yours, Dawn Russell’s fingerprints were found on that swan, were they not? A. That’s what we were advised, yes, ma’am.
Q. You were also advised they were found on a jewelry box on the floor?
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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I don’t recall the prints upon the box.
Q. Do you recall a roll of tape with a name written on it that was also in that room and had been placed there by Dawn Russell. Do you recall that? A. I recall a roll of tape, yes, ma’am.
Q. Do you recall a name being written on it?
A. There was a name on it, yes, ma’am.
Q. Do you recall that Dawn Russell had written that on there?
A. I don’t know if she did or not.
Q. Do you recall a woman’s belt lying there in that room on the floor that belonged to Dawn Russell?
A. No, I don’t.
Q. You don’t recall that. You never did ask her who that belonged to?
A. I never talked to Dawn.
MR. MOODY: Your Honor? Excuse me, Your Honor. I object to this line of questioning.
If we could proceed into the area where the voluntariness of henry Lucas’ confessions. Now, I understand that the defense is interested in making an issue of other suspects in the case, which is fine in the case of the trial or merits and, you know, we are certainly respecting that. But at this hearing I don’t think it’s that relevant of an issue as to
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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Whether or not henry Lucas gave these confessions voluntarily.
MS. SIPES: Your honor, so far the state has produced for this Court to examine four either written or videoed or taped confessions of Henry Lucas. All four of those confessions are different and they start out being a confession to a crime that is totally unrecognizable as the one for which this man is on trial. And it has gone through a period of time down to where on the video they finally get it right.
We now have a situation where the officer in charge of this matter was present during the taking of those confessions. The pertinent matters are all not a matter of record but come orally from the police officers themselves.
It’s my contention that I’m entitled to go into the background of why they wanted a confession from Henry Lee Lucas and what it was that was - -
THE COURT: Ms. Sipes, I’m going to let you continue.
Q. (BY MS. SIPES) Now, Sergeant Apodaca, your officers then proceeded, did they not, to take a statement from Dawn Russell as to her whereabouts at
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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the time of the murder. Is that correct?
They did take a statement from Dawn Russell. I don’t know if they took it that day or later, but a statement was taken from her.
Q. Okay. Do you know where that statement is?
A. It’s in the file.
Q. This would be taken the same day or the next day. Is that correct?
A. I don’t know if the statement was taken the day of the murder or there was no statement taken the day of the murder. I don’t recall.
Q. okay. Now, she is constantly referred to as probably the person who last saw the victim alive. Would there necessarily be a statement in there as to her whereabouts at the time of the murder?
A. I don’t know if they took a statement or not, Ms. Sipes. I don’t know.
Q. Okay. Is it unusual procedure when a person makes a second statement to say, “This is my second statement”?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. And I believe I asked you at your deposition earlier about her first statement. Have you ever been able to locate that first statement for me?
A. No, ma’am.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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Q. Have you looked for it?
A. I have looked for a statement. The only one I could find was in the case.
Q. A computerized search was done of the EPPD records on Dawn Russell, was it not?
A. I didn’t do it. I did not do the actual search myself.
Q. It was done by your office, was it not, sir?
A. I don’t know if it was done by my office. Maybe somebody else did. I don’t know.
Q. And that search showed that your relative, Dawn Russell, had been involved in several incidents which caused her to be picked up and placed in the computer, did it not?
One involved a situation where she and a friend had taken an unauthorized car at the age of 12 years old and gone out driving it without permission and had wrecked the automobile, had taken it back to the home and concealed it. Isn’t that true?
I have not seen the report that says that. I know that she is - - that her name is on the computer and there is - - I have seen reports with Dawn Russell’s name on them, but I have not read them.
Q. At the time of this incident Dawn Russell was about 12 or 13 years old, wasn’t she?
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I really don’t know. Something like that, somewhere, 12, 13 years old.
Q. She had already taken a car out and wrecked it that belonged to a third party. Isn’t that true?
A. I have no knowledge of that.
Q. Did she drive your aunt’s car?
A. Not to my knowledge.
Q. She had also been picked up in a burglary, had she not, sir?
A. Again I’m not aware of that.
Q. Your investigators did not tell you that?
A. No, they did not.
Q. And did they tell you that she had been picked up in the burglary with other individuals with extensive police records?
A. No, they did not.
Q. You never knew that?
A. I did not know that.
Q. Did they ever tell you that she came in to make a statement about nightmares that she had been having about her grandmother’s death?
A. I’m aware of that, yes, ma’am.
Q. I’m aware of that, yes, ma’am.
Q. You were there in the office when she came on to make that statement?
A. Yes, I was.
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Q. And was she hypnotized, sir? A. Not to my knowledge. I don’t know if she was or not. I don’t remember.
Q. You knew that Dawn Russell had later told her physicians that her recollection of this particular crime had caused the police to become - -
MR. MOODY: Your Honor, I’m going to object to her reading out of the medical records of Dawn Russell.
THE COURT: Now, Ms. Sipes, I can’t - - I don’t understand what that has to do with the suppression of this confession.
MS. SIPES: Your Honor, what it has to do with the suppression of the confession, and I would invite the Court and Mr. Moody to look at the medical records and the different references it has to Dawn Russell’s knowledge of who did the murder. I’d invite you to make an in camera inspection before I ask another question about it.
THE COURT: Well, how does that - - what - - how does that show that this confession was not properly taken?
MS. SIPES: Your Honor, it shows that the confession was not properly taken because a family murder - - a family member was - - evidently knew who
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
In the family had committed the murder and who was responsible for it and that this information was available and that it was very fortunate for the family for Mr. Lucas to come along.
He didn’t make a - - He didn’t make the right confession until he made four attempts and was coached.
THE COURT: Where - - Let me - - Let’s look at the medical records. Have you seen the medical?
MR. MOODY: No, I have never seen it.
MR. PONTON: Copies have been given to the district attorney’s office.
MR. MOODY: I guess Richard has seen it. I have not.
THE COURT: Let me see. What are - - Show me here what you’re talking about.
MS. SIPES: Okay.
THE COURT: Well, I see. Bill, I don’t know. I’m just looking.
MS. SIPES: You have a copy, Bill.
THE COURT: Have you seen this?
MR. JEWKES: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: You know what she’s talking about, then?
MR. JEWKES: Yes, sir. These were medical
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
records that were prepared at Sun Valley Hospital by Dr. Passmore.
MS. SIPES: Here is one reference, Your Honor. Here is - -
MR. JEWKES: They are medical records of Dawn Russell.
MS. SIPES: Dawn is quite honest about stating she has nightmares about her grandmother’s death and can recall in her dreams many things that the police have found phenomenal. There is also some strong anger directed at the trial and the likelihood of the individual who committed the murder getting off.
MR. JEWKES: She is talking about Henry Lucas, Your Honor.
MR. PONTON: That was in January of ’86.
MR. JEWKES: He was indicted in October of 19- - -
THE COURT: This was January when?
MR. PONTON: ’86 is the date on there.
MR. MOODY: You know, I mean, a 12- or 13- year old is going to be frightened over this. This is a horrible murder. It’s most likely that she is - -
THE COURT: Well, it is a horrible murder,
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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But - -
MR. MOODY: And she was almost home that night, almost there.
THE COURT: Well, Ms. Sipes says she was there. I mean, that’s what she is saying.
MR. MOODY: A 12- or 13-year-old girl wielding an axe?
THE COURT: I have no idea.
MR. PONTON: Dreams of seeing Shorty with axe and - -
THE COURT: Dreamed what?
MS. SIPES: Dreams of seeing Shorty O with axe and raping grandmother.
MR. MOODY: Dreams are going to be admissible in court?
THE COURT: Bill, you know. I’m not admitting anything. I’m just looking. They asked that I looked at it in camera. I’m just looking to see what it is. I don’t know.
MS. PENNOCK: You know, it strikes me that the defense filed a motion to depose Dr. Passmore and that the judge signed an order for that deposition and the deposition did not occur because the - -
THE COURT: Dr. Passmore?
MS. PENNOCK: Yes, because the defense
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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failed to bring the things to - - so that they could be served.
THE COURT: What does he have to do with this?
MS. PENNOCK: That’s the person who is making the records. Now, the defense is questioning this witness about Ben Passmore’s records when they had an opportunity to depose him and didn’t do it.
THE COURT: You know, I don’t - -
MR. MOODY: Where was it that she said she - -
THE COURT: I don’t know, Bill. You know, you got - - I don’t know. You have to let me see here.
MR. MOODY: Where does it say she say that she did it?
MS. SIPES: Lucas is jail because of her. “Grandmother can’t go to heaven because Lucas is in jail because of her.”
THE COURT: See, I don’t - - Well, let’s - - Let me ask you this. Now, we’ve got a motion to suppress this confession. Now, I don’t - - if this, all of this is for a trial, as far as a trial is concerned, this would be, you know, damaging evidence if you can get it in, such as that. But the idea is, I don’t see how - -
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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MR. MOODY: You mean, if they want to prove Dawn Russell did it?
THE COURT: I don’t see how her psychiatric evidence can come in at this suppression hearing unless there is something in here that shows - - or that she is admitting that she did the killing or did the crime instead of somebody else, then that might come in. You know, if you have got someone else saying, “I did it,” but, Doris, I don’t see anything in here that says, “I did it.”
MS. SIPES: She says Lucas is in jail because of her.
MR. MOODY: Well, she’s a witness. She has helped identify some of the property, so - -
MR. PONTON: I think the point is - -
THE COURT: You’re going to be able sometime to cross-examine that young lady and ask her what she meant.
MS. SIPES: Your Honor, they are not talking about written confessions. They are trying to bootstrap their whole case up with purported oral statements made by Henry Lucas that they said that there was additional matters that they chose not to make a record of.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
We are not only trying to suppress the written confessions, we are trying to suppress the oral confessions. When we are trying to do that, the veracity and the motive behind these statements comes into play.
THE COURT: Well - -
MR. PONTON: If they knew these confessions of Henry Lucas were false at the time they were taking them, it’s our contention that that would prove that the statements were not taken voluntarily from Henry Lucas.
THE COURT: How could they have known? I don’t understand. If they knew they were false, they why would they bring the charges? You know, it doesn’t follow that I’m going bring a charge against somebody if I know the statement that I took was false.
MR. PONTON: Because it might exculpate somebody else.
THE COURT: Well - -
MR. PONTON: That’s one reason, one possibility.
THE COURT: But of course, this, I’m told, comes in ’86. Mr. Lucas was indicted it would be long before that.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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MR. MOODY: Yeah.
MS. SIPES: Your Honor, that statement the girl initially gave has totally disappeared, has totally disappeared. Her fingerprints are the only fresh fingerprints found in that house other than the victim.
MR. MOODY: She is saying fresh. But, Ms. Sipes, you know no fingerprint expert in the country says this is a fresh print or this is a stale print. They don’t say that.
MS. SIPES: I’ve got one who will.
MR. MOODY: I would say no qualified expert would.
MS. SIPES: I Have got one who is qualified
THE COURT: Let me say this. I do know that I have heard fingerprint experts, and I have heard the local fingerprint expert testify as to fingerprints and I have heard him say on this witness stand that it was not a fresh print and had been there a long time and we didn’t get a good take on it, you know, of the fingerprints. And he has testified fingerprints fade with age and they get blurry as time goes on and such as that.
NOW, I have heard them testify to that, Bill. YOU put a fingerprint on something this morning and
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
you go back to that fingerprint two months from now, the print is not going to be the same. IN other words, it’s not going to be fresh.
MR. MOODY: You can’t tell the age of a print based on - -
THE COURT: I know you can tell that it’s not a brand-new print.
MR. MOODY: WE will be happy to bring down whatever expert.
THE COURT: Well, I’m not going to question it. YOU-all have experts.
MR. MOODY: They have got them and - -
THE COURT: I’m not questioning that. I don’t know that this has anything to do with this. That’s what I’m saying.
MR. MOODY: I don’t think it has anything to do with whether or not it’s a volunteered statement.
THE COURT: If you can bring it into the suppression, then I don’t mind listening to it. I do know that I would like somebody, if there are statements missing I would like somebody to find those statements.
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MR. MOODY: Well, that’s why - -
THE COURT: Because those statements are very important to the case.
MR. MOODY: That’s why - -
THE COURT: And the first time you made the statement is just as important as the second statement or maybe more so.
IF MR. Lucas confessed four times, then certainly two statements would be worthwhile looking at. We have his four confessions. We ought to have the statements of everybody involved.
Now, then, the people that investigated this lawsuit ought to know, and it is a very important lawsuit, very important case especially since a police officer’s relative was hurt or murdered. And it makes it a little more important that the average case, and therefore it seems to me like those statements ought to have been a little bit more guarded than any other in any other case. We shouldn’t be losing things.
MR. MOODY: Well, I’d say we are lucky we haven’t lost more at the rate of - - The amount of paperwork we have in the case is voluminous.
THE COURT: Exactly.
MR. MOODY: You know, I don’t know if the
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Question is it’s lost or we just can’t find it. We have looked through all the ID&R files and can’t find it there. It’s the only statement that we have not been able to locate. I don’t know if there are any - - are there any other papers we have not actually come up with at all on some things that I Just can’t - -
MS. SIPES: I keep asking for the nightstalker’s prints, and you have never been able to give me those for us to see those.
MR. MOODY: I told - - Who was it the other day?
MS. SIPES: Benny Perez.
MR. MOODY: Those we have got to have because even I have seen those. Not in regards to that case, but in regards to when he was arrested in California because of the - - he had been arrested here in El Paso previously. I know we have his prints here on file. Those should be no problem.
MR. PONTON: That’s not what Art Orozco tells.
THE COURT: Don’t you think the people in California would send them to us? MS. SIPES: Your Honor, Mr. Apodaca testified he has a whole packet on Ramirez, that it’s here and that they were compared.
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But there is no record of it. I have asked for the supplement to show that and Art Orozco says he didn’t do it.
THE COURT: Ms. Sipes says that you have a packet on this, the nightstalker? A. Yes, we do, Judge.
THE COURT: And that you have his prints?
Yes, we do, Judge.
THE COURT: Well, she would like to compare those prints. Is that what you - -
MS. SIPES: No. I have been told that there was a supplement comparing his fingerprints to those found at the scene and I have asked for the supplement, but I have yet to get it.
THE COURT: Is there such a - -
Judge, Benito Perez is the one in charge of the case and I’m sure he had the fingerprints compared because he told me had them compared. Now, the supplement, I don’t know where it’s at.
MS. SIPES: They just asked me if there were any more items that I had asked for that I hadn’t gotten, and that was one of them.
THE COURT: Well, we can certainly ask him after the break here. WE are not going to be able to go back into this this evening. We are going to quit
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MERYL WERSINGER, C.S.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
MS. Sipes, do you have a copy of this?
MS. SIPES: This?
THE COURT: Yes.
MS. SIPES: Yes, Your Honor.
THE COURT: That I can take home and read?
MR. PONTON: This is the Court’s copy right here.
THE COURT: All right. I’m going to take it and read it. I don’t think it’s admissible. I don’t think you ought to be able to get into it, but I’m going to give you the benefit of the doubt.
But, I’ll - - Well, now, wait a minute. How much as I going to have to read here? You-all keep piling up files.
How much - -
MR. PONTON: This was given to us, the envelope by your court reporter, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Is this it or is this it?
MS. SIPES: Both.
THE COURT: Both?
MR. PONTON: I think you’ll find that a lot of that, Your Honor, has possible records that - -
THE COURT: All right. I’m going to read it. I just don’t want duplicates of anything. I’m going to read them both.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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And, Ms. Sipes, I’m going to say this to you at this time: I don’t think that we ought to get into it because I don’t think that it has anything to do with this hearing. I’m reading it mainly because it’s the end of the day and I will read it to see if, indeed, you should get into it.
But otherwise, I think we ought to get into this confession, find out what is wrong with this confession, if anything. And then after we get into this and if we prove this confession to be good or bad and we go on with the trial of this case, then there is no question that this material would be admissible or could be admissible if properly admitted.
MR. JEWKES: Your Honor, pardon me. Could we have a copy of that made so we can look at it tonight, too?
MR. PONTON: You already have it.
THE COURT: I thought you-all had a copy.
MR. JEWKES: It has never been given to us, Your Honor.
MS. SIPES: It was made during the lunch hour the other day.
MR. JEWKES: We have never gotten a copy.
MS. SIPES: Carol asked for it.
Page 1165
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
MR. MOODY: We asked for it.
MR. JEWKES: But we’ve never gotten it. We would like our copy.
THE COURT: I’ll be more than happy to let you-all have a copy. Certainly you may have a copy. How do you want it done? Now, before we have always had to have someone go with the person doing the copying to make sure nothing is taken out of it, nothing is added to it.
MR. JEWKES: We trust the defense, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Don’t trust me, you know. I’m not going to be trustworthy and you-all say, well, this is missing. The heck with that. I don’t want that.
MR. JEWKES: You got my word I’m not going to set you up. Whatever, Your Honor, just - -
THE COURT: How do you-all want to do it? Do you want me to call and have the copy man come up here?
MR. PONTON: That might be easiest or I could give them a copy of my copy.
THE COURT: Do you have a copy?
MR. PONTON: I have a copy at my office and I can give them a copy of that and get it to them
Page 1166
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
by 5:00, I imagine.
THE COURT: Do you want to do that?
MR. JEWKES: Sure.
MR. PONTON: That would be easier.
THE COURT: Do you have a copy of all of this?
MR. PONTON: Yes, Your Honor.
THE COURT: I will give it back to you in the morning. If you want to copy - -Is this the Court’s?
MR. PONTON: That is the Court’s copy.
THE COURT: You’re telling me this should be filed in the Court papers?
MR. PONTON: Well, that was - -
MS. SIPES: It was subpoenaed.
MR. PONTON: It was subpoenaed by the defense. That was tendered to the Court by the custodians of those records.
THE COURT: Well, how did you get them?
MR. PONTON: I asked your court reporter to look at the Court’s copy of that.
THE COURT: When did you ask her to do that?
MR. PONTON: I asked her at lunch - - either this morning or at the lunch break, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Now, where did you have it?
Page 1167
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
COURT REPORTER: With the evidence.
THE COURT: Here?
COURT REPORTER: Yes.
THE COURT: Well, you know, you ought to keep me informed of what is mine and what is theirs, because I’m not - -
COURT REPORTER: You told me to keep this.
THE COURT: I don’t want them to lose what is mine. I don’t care if they lose what is theirs, but I don’t want to lose what is mine.
Okay. I’ll read it. You give him a copy.
MR. PONTON: I will, Your Honor.
THE COURT: We will start at 9:00 tomorrow morning, Mr. Apodaca - - or sergeant Apodaca. Thank you. We will see you in the morning.
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
(An evening recess was taken.)
Page 1168
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
IN THE DISTRICT OF EL PASO COUNTY, TEXAS
THE STATE OF TEXAS )
)
VS. ) CAUSE NO. 43314-120
)
HENRY LEE LUCAS )
heard on
SEPTEMBER 17, 1986
Page 1169
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
A P P E A R AN C E S
For the state: WILLIAM MOODY
First Assistant District Attorney
City-county Building
El Paso, TX 79901
RICHARD JEWKES
City-county Building
El Paso, TX 79901
Carol Pennock
City-county Building
El Paso, TX 79901
For the Defendant: ROD PONTON
Attorney at Law
Suite 505
Caples Building
El Paso, TX 79901
DORIS SIPES
Attorney at law
1011 North Mesa
El Paso, TX 79901
Page 1170
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
WITNESSES PAGE
JIMMY APODACA
Continued Cross-Examination 1177
Redirect Examination by Mr. Moody 1241
Greg Lucas
Direct Examination by. Mr. Moody 1255
Cross-examination by Ms. Sipes 1275
Page 1171
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
WITNESSES PAGE
JIMMY APODACA
Continued Cross-examination by Ms. Sipes 1177
Redirect Examination by Mr. Moody 1241
GREG LUCAS
Direct Examination 1255
Cross-examination 1275
Page 1172
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
EXHIBIT DESCRIPTION MARKED IDENTIFIED OFFERED REC’D
S-14 Photo 1247 1247 1248 1249
S-15 Photo 1247 1248 1248 1249
S-16 Videotape 1263 1263
S-17 Videotape 1263 1263
S-18 Audiotape 1263 1263
S-19 Audiotape 1263 1263
Page 1173
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
THE COURT: All right. Now, Mr. Moody has informed me, Mr. Ponton, that you did not give Mr. Jewkes a copy of the psychiatric report that you told this Court you would last evening.
MR. PONTON: No, Your Honor, I was mistaken. I had thought that I had gotten copies of that previously, and I did not have copies to have copies made for him. I searched for them and I realized I hadn’t gotten copies, so I apologize for my mistake.
MR. MOODY: That was my problem. You just hadn’t had a chance to see them, and obviously they thought they had copies and they didn’t.
THE COURT: And you do not have any copies of this?
MR. PONTON: No, I don’t Your Honor.
THE COURT: Bob, call downstairs and get one of Piti’s men. I want two copies of that front and back. I think what you ought to do is you send Louisa down there with them. She is a good watcher. She would sit there and watch them and see that no one sticks anything in their pockets. In the meantime, you answer my phone or something. Let’s get this going.
All right. Now, Ms. Sipes, let me suggest this to you. Since they did not receive a copy of
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
this, I’m not going to allow any questions concerning this at this time and I’ll reserve any judgment concerning the state has an opportunity to look over these reports.
MS. SIPES: Yes, Your Honor.
MR. MOODY: Just one thing your honor. I think we made substantial progress on the availability of documents and records yesterday. Mr. Ponton and I worked out an agreement that whatever we had left in our filing cabinets, extraneous offenses or thereof, we would give copies of all that material. They would give us in exchange copies of whatever documents that they have that they obtained under subpoena and that type of stuff, so I think that both sides will probably have an equal file, you know, pretty close to an equal file.
THE COURT: You know, that sounds reasonable to me. That will sure save us lots of time.
MR. MOODY: Well, I sure hope so.
THE COURT: All right. Ms. Sipes, let’s go on with the examination of this witness, but let’s leave out anything that might concern this matter that we took up late yesterday evening. Okay?
MS. SIPES: Yes, Your Honor.
Page 1176
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
BY MS. SIPES:
Q. Sergeant Apodaca, Mr. - - of Greg Lucas worked in the crimes against persons division back in 1983. Is that correct?
A. Yes, ma’am.
Q. He was a detective. Is that right? A. Yes, ma’am.
Q. Are you aware that Detective Greg Lucas had arranged for an interview with Henry Lee Lucas on several other murders here in El Paso in December of 1983? A. I don’t recall the date, but I was aware he was interviewing Mr. Lucas.
Q. Okay. And since Detective Perez had made an inquiry as to the involvement of Henry Lee Lucas in this case back in June of 1983, did you then consult with Detective Greg Lucas and ask him to once again put this case to Mr. Lucas?
A. I did not.
Q. Are you aware that Detective Greg Lucas received from the Texas Rangers a packet containing instructions about his interview that was to take place in December of ’83, along with a time flow chart?
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
I’m not aware of that.
Q. Are you aware that that time flow chart showed that Henry Lee Lucas was in Louisiana on May 26th of 1983, that he had confessed to another murder in St. Tammany Parish, Louisiana, at that time?
A. I was not aware at that time that Mr. Lucas was in Louisiana.
Q. Are you aware sir, that eventually when Detective Greg Lucas and his partner went to Georgetown, Texas, to interview Henry Lee Lucas that they first went to his attorney, Mr. Higginbotham and secured permission from Mr. Higginbotham before they has an interview and obtained any confessions from him?
A. No, I’m not aware.
Q. Mr. - - I mean, Detective Greg Lucas did not come back to the crimes against persons detail and make a report in any of these morning conferences which he have heard about on direct examination between you and Mr. Moody?
A. I don’t recall him ever saying anything in a meeting. He might have, I don’t recall.
Q. You don’t recall Detective Greg Lucas coming to the crimes against persons and making a report in one of the early morning conferences that Henry Lee
Page 1175
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Lucas had confessed to a number of murders here in El Paso?
I don’t recall if he did. He might have done it, but I just don’t recall if he did or not.
Q. That wasn’t an event of some importance there in the crimes against persons detail?
A. The reason that Mr. Lucas went to interview - - I’m sorry. Yeah, Greg Lucas went to - - this is my understanding - - went to interview Mr. Lucas in Georgetown was in reference to a missing person we had.
Q. Okay. But once he was there, isn’t it true that a tape recording was made of Henry Lee Lucas confessing to numerous burglaries, rapes and murders here in El Paso County?
A. I’m not aware of that, no, I’m not.
Q. And is it your testimony that Detective Lucas never came to any of these meetings and told about all the murders he had solved that previous week in Georgetown?
A. My testimony is I do not remember if he did or not.
Q. Do you-all have an interoffice memorandum sheet that you pass around the crimes that have been solved, confessions that have been obtained?
Page 1179
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
We do not.
Q. You do not. If Detective Jerry Smith of Odessa had testified that he had initially met you here in El Paso because of the unique communication system which you had set up here in El Paso or were a part of and that he was down here to observe your early morning conferences and the way that you-all disseminate materials there in the crimes against persons detail, would he be in error?
A. Most of the information is passed out at the morning meetings that we have. The shift meetings are information on cases that are being investigated at that time and that occurred during the weekend or something, that the sergeant will just go ahead and give a briefing of what occurred.
Q. Okay. It’s your testimony that there was no briefing on the success of Detective Greg Lucas in obtaining a tape recording which took in excess of about 120 pages to type up wherein Henry Lee Lucas confessed to numerous murders, robberies, rapes and burglaries here in El Paso?
A. If he did, I do not remember.
Q. And you have no recollection of that time flow chart that your department received in December of 1983?
Page 1180
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
I did not see one.
Q. Okay. Now, did you ever see a transcription of the tape recording that Detective Greg Lucas made of Henry Lee Lucas in Georgetown, Texas, in December of 1983?
A. I never did read it. I saw it. I never read it.
Q. Where was it that you saw it?
A. It might have been there in the office. I don’t recall where exactly it was. It might have been on his desk. I just saw it there on his desk, but I don’t recall. It was just - - I just glanced through it.
Q. Did you discuss it with Detective Lucas?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Did you discuss the rape and the burglaries that he had confessed to?
A. I did not.
Q. Did you ask Detective Lucas to check these with known crimes in the El Paso area?
A. I did not.
Q. Do you know if anyone else did? A. I don’t recall if they did or not.
Q. Who should have done that? Who would have had the authority to have done that?
Page 1181
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
The supervisor, the immediate supervisor. I don’t know who it was at that time. It could have been Sergeant Johnson or Sergeant - - I don’t know if Salcedo was there or who was there. I know Johnson was there. I don’t know if he was the supervisor at that time or not.
Q. So thereafter, sir, I believe you testified on direct examination that you made contact with Detective Jerry Smith in Odessa, Texas. Is that correct?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. And your trip to Odessa, Texas, was for what purpose, sir?
A. I went to Odessa with Detective Perez, to follow up on information that a suspect that Benny Perez had that was a known burglar in El Paso.
Q. That suspect’s name was what?
A. I think his last name was Rodriquez. I don’t recall his first name.
Q. Ernesto? Would it be Ernesto?
A. Probably. I don’t recall that first name. I don’t recall.
Q. DO you recall the name of the witness that you went to interview there?
A. I don’t recall that.
Page 1182
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. You don’t recall that, either. Have you reviewed any of your records prior to coming in here and testifying?
A. I did not. I don’t have any records.
Q. You don’t have any records?
A. Benny Perez has all the reports. He made all the reports.
Q. You didn’t have to account for your time out of the city of El Paso?
A. The fact that I was out of town, you know, I just made a travel request. That’s about it.
Q. Did you take the file with you to Odessa, sir?
A. I did not take the file with me.
Q, Okay. How do you account for the fact that after your trip to Odessa that a newspaper article appeared in the Odessa Statesman giving the details of this murder?
I never read the article.
Q. Do you know where the information came from that appeared in that newspaper article?
A. I sure don’t.
Q. You don’t think it came from Detective Jerry Smith or from you?
A. It didn’t come from me. You’re talking
Page 1183
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
about the suspect that was out there?
Q. I’m talking about - -
A. Are you talking about the suspect Rodriquez?
Q. I’ve got the information that came out about your aunt’s murder.
A. I wasn’t aware that it came out in the newspaper.
Q. Okay. And so you did not furnish information that was the basis for that newspaper article in Odessa after your trip to Odessa, did you, sir?
A. I did not furnish any information.
Q. You don’t know how that came to be timed right around the time you went to Odessa?
A. No, ma’am.
Q. And I believe it was your testimony on direct examination that Detective Lucas - - Detective Smith in Odessa was the one who initially presented the possibility to you that Henry Lee Lucas might perhaps be involved in this murder?
A. Yes, it was.
Q. Did you at any point drop the investigation into Mr. Rodriquez?
A. I had nothing to do with it. Benny was the one doing all the followup on Mr. Rodriquez.
Page 1184
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. Well, what were you doing up there in Odessa?
A. I just went with him.
Q. You just went with him?
A. Yes, ma’am.
Q. Now, at that time, the suspect Rodriquez had confessed to this murder, had he not, to a friend of his?
A. The information I got was that this friend that Detective Perez interviewed in Odessa believed that he had seen somebody that looked like the photograph or composite, whatever Benny sent to Odessa, and he told him he had killed an old lady in El Paso.
Q. Okay. And he had been seen the evening of this murder covered with blood, had he not?
A. I don’t - - I don’t know. I don’t know that.
Q. You don’t know that? A. I did not interview the witness in Odessa.
Q. I’m not talking about what this witness knew, sir. I’m talking about what you knew before you made a 300-mile trip up to Odessa to interview a witness.
You knew that there was a suspect Rodriquez, didn’t you?
Benny advised me that he wanted to go to Odessa because they had a witness that might have
Page 1185
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
seen Rodriquez at the scene - - I mean, Odessa. But I did not get any details from him.
Q. You have no idea why Rodriquez was a suspect?
A. Other than he was a known burglar in El Paso and Benny was looking at burglars and so forth. That’s how it came up.
Q. He didn’t tell you that a person who had seen Mr. Rodriquez at the crime scene as was with him that night had told the police and made a report regarding this murder?
A. No, I don’t recall telling me this.
Q. You don’t recall that at all?
A. No, ma’am.
Q. You don’t recall that Mr. Rodriquez and the friend of his going to a trailer house both covered with blood?
A. He mentioned something to that, but I don’t recall exactly what he said, Ms. Sipes. I’m sorry. I don’t recall.
Q. Is it your testimony, sir, that you-all dropped the investigation of Rodriquez once you had gone to Odessa?
A. My testimony is that he was not in custody, so apparently the detective was still working on the case.
Page 1186
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. And it’s your testimony also that you did not give Detective Smith any details of this murder other than what - -
A. What murder, this, the one - -
Q. The Apodaca murder.
A. Oh, just that she was my aunt, she had been killed in her home and she had been sexually assaulted and killed with an axe.
Q. And therefore, Detective Smith contacted you, did he not.
A. Yes, ma’am, he did.
Q. And what was said in that conversation?
A. He called me sometime in September, I think it was the 18th, somewhere around there, that he was going to go interview Mr. Lucas in an appointment. And he wanted to know if our case had been solved yet.
Q. Okay. Did he tell you that you needed to get in touch with some Texas Rangers before this case could be presented to Henry Lee Lucas?
A. Oh, no, he didn’t say anything.
Q. He didn’t. Thereafter did you contact Clayton McKinney, Texas Ranger in Alpine, Texas?
A. I did not contact Clayton McKinney.
Q. Did any of your detectives contact Clayton McKinney?
Page 1178
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
I don’t know if they did.
Q. You don’t know if they did. Did you or any of your men under your direction contact Buster Collins - -
A. I did not.
Q. - - Texas Ranger?
A. I did not.
Q. Did any of your employees, any of the other detectives contact - -
A. The only one that would have a probably done it is Benny Perez that I could see, But I don’t know if he did or not.
Q. You know nothing about contacting the Texas Rangers. Is that your testimony?
A. I don’t remember me contacting. I don’t - - Myself, I don’t remember me contacting anybody.
Q. Did any of the detectives working on this case, sir, contact you and say, “Look, I contacted the Texas Rangers, I set everything up and everything is lined up to present this case to Henry Lee Lucas?
A. No, ma’am. Nobody told me that.
Q. Nobody told you anything like that, of that nature? Nobody told you anything about contacting Clayton McKinney or Buster Collins?
A. That I can recall, nobody did.
Page 1188
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. Or Clayton smith?
A. Clayton Smith? I know nobody had told me about Clayton Smith.
Q. Have you ever talked with Clayton Smith?
A. Yes, I have.
Q. When was that?
A. The night that Jerry Smith called me at home.
Q. What did you do when you called Clayton Smith?
A. I asked him if there was a possibility that we could meet with Mr. Lucas.
Q. What did he tell you?
A. He told us that he was going to be in Sierra Blanca the following day, maybe we could ride up there.
Q. Okay. Did he tell you and outline for you the standard procedures for interviewing henry Lee Lucas?
A. No, he did not.
Q. He gave you no directions or guidelines that he required?
A. Not that I recall.
Q. Nothing as far as the task force was concerned was required of you?
A. Not that I recall.
Page 1189
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. And at that point, sir, did - - had Detective Smith played for you the tape that he had obtained in his interview of Henry Lee Lucas in, I believe, Monahans?
A. No, he did not.
Q. He did not. Did he tell you the contents of that tape?
A. He did not.
Q. What, if anything, did he tell you?
A. Just told me Mr. Lucas had admitted to killing an old lady just before he was arrested in El Paso.
Q. Now, isn’t it true that Henry Lee Lucas had admitted killing an old lady in El Paso prior to that? He admitted it to your own detective, detective Greg Lucas?
A. I don’t know if he did or not.
Q. You didn’t know that he had already confessed to killing an old lady here in El Paso - -
A. No, I did not.
Q. - - to Detective Greg Lucas in December of 1983?
A. I don’t recall that.
Q. And that it’s included in a tape that you admitted seeing there on the desktop there in the
Page 1190
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
crimes against persons office?
No, I did not.
Q. And that the admission of September - - December 1983 and what he told Detective Smith in Odessa are almost identical?
A. I don’t understand the question. I’m sorry.
Q. You don’t know that those two statements are almost identical? A. I never saw the one from Detective Lucas.
Q. You never saw it?
A. No, ma’am.
Q. Did you ever ask Detective Greg Lucas to drive Mr. Lucas down to the crime scene there on Irma Road?
A. No, I did not.
Q. You didn’t. Did Detective Lucas ever tell you that he had?
A. No, he did not.
Q. After that, I believe it’s your testimony that you went to - - that you checked with Jerry Smith in Odessa because Jerry Smith said that Henry Lee Lucas had admitted to El Paso murders. Is that right?
A. What was the question again?
Q. Now, in December of ’83, your own detective, Detective Greg Lucas, had returned from Georgetown
Page 1191
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
telling the department that Henry Lee Lucas had confessed to committing murders in El Paso. Isn’t that right?
I never heard Officer Lucas say anything about that.
Q. And you never proceeded any further along that line, did you, sir?
A. No, I did not.
Q. And no one else in your department did other than to bring Henry Lee Lucas here and make travels around and about the city and county of El Paso. Isn’t that true?
Q. Mr. Lucas, they brought him downtown. Now, where they took him, I don’t know.
Q. Okay. But when Jerry Smith from Odessa called you and said he had confessed to El Paso murders, you immediately called Clayton Smith of the Texas Rangers and made arrangements to go to Sierra Blanca to talk with MR. Lucas. Is that correct?
A. I did not call Jerry Smith - - or Clayton Smith.
Q. He called you?
A. He was there with Jerry Smith at the time that Jerry Smith called me.
Q. And so I shouldn’t question you, then, about
Page 1192
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
whether you called. I have to ask the questions just exactly right. Is that right, Officer?
Well, all I know is you asked me if I called. I never called Jerry Smith, but he called me.
Q. But you did speak with him that night? A. Yes, I did.
Q. When Detective Smith called, you immediately made arrangements to talk with Henry Lee Lucas. Isn’t that right?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Now, at that time the fingerprints of Henry Lee Lucas had been with El Paso EPPD since December of ’83. Now we are into August of ’84.
Had Henry Lee Lucas’ fingerprints been checked against those latent prints that were lifted from the crime scene prior to that time?
I don’t know if they had or not.
Q. Did you ask or direct that that check be made?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Do you know whether it was made?
A. It was made - - I don’t recall when they were made, but they were compared, I think, after we came back from Sierra Blanca. I don’t recall exactly.
Q. Isn’t it true, sir, that the comparison of
Page 1193
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
those fingerprints was made before you tape recorded Henry Lee Lucas in Sierra Blanca?
I don’t recall if it was before then or not. I don’t recall.
Q. Do you know where we would be able to look to determine that information, sir?
A. Probably the case file. It might be in the case file. I don’t know.
Q. Do you recall whether or not any phone calls were made from Sierra Blanca back to El Paso by you or Detective Perez to check on the results of that comparison?
A. I did not call myself.
Q. Okay.
A. I don’t know if Benny did. I don’t know if he did. I doubt it.
Q. Do you know if anyone called you or Detective Perez?
A. No.
Q. When was it that you made inquiry into this area of the fingerprint comparison?
A. I don’t believe I did. I think it was done by Detective Perez.
Q. But do you know when?
A. I don’t remember when it was.
Page 1194
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. DO you know that back in December of 1983 that Detective Greg Lucas had already checked the El Paso EPPD computer and had already submitted the fingerprints to ID&R, Orozco, as of December of 1983 and that had met with no results? A. I don’t recall. I don’t recall that.
Q. You don’t recall that. You don’t recall that being presented at one of the early morning conferences in the crimes against persons division here in El Paso?
A. I don’t recall if they did or not.
Q. DO you recall that when you arrived - - Do you recall whether or not in a supplement that Henry Lee Lucas’ fingerprints were checked with the latents in the Librada Apodaca case on September the 19th of 1984 at 3:00 p.m. and that the results were negative?
A. I don’t recall if it was or not.
Q. That would be the day of Detective Smith’s taping Henry Lee Lucas in Monahans, wouldn’t it, sir?
A. I don’t recall the exact date that he called me up. It was the 18th or 19th, somewhere around there, midnight.
Q. It would be the day before you went to Sierra Blanca? A. No. The day we went to Sierra Blanca was
Page 1195
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
the following day after I received the phone call, so I don’t know. We were in Sierra Blanca by about 3:00 in the afternoon.
Q. Was that the 19th?
A. Yes, ma’am.
Q. And so the fingerprints had been checked and had been compared prior to your making any taped confession of Henry Lee Lucas. Isn’t that right? A. If that is what the supplement says, I guess so.
Q. And were you aware of that prior to making that tape?
A. No, I was not.
Q. Was Benny Perez aware of that prior to making the tape?
A. I don’t know if he was or not.
Q. Okay. Who-all was present in the room when the tape was made in Sierra Blanca in the 19th of September of 1984?
A. Mr. Lucas, Detective Perez and myself.
Q. Do you recall whether or not, sir, you were identified on tape as having been in the room?
A. I think I was.
Q. Okay. How long has it been since you have looked at the transcription of that tape, sir?
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
I don’t think I ever looked at it.
MS. SIPES: May I approach the witness, Your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes, ma’am.
Q. (BY MS. SIPES) I hand you, sir, what is purportedly a transcription of that tape that you and Detective Perez made there in Sierra Blanca on September the 19th of 1984 and I’d ask you, sir, to read with me just a little bit.
I believe it says: What day was that? Do you remember?” Is that correct?
That’s correct.
Q. That was on the 11th of January, 1983. Now, they are talking about the date that Henry Lee Lucas was arrested. That’s probably a typo, wouldn’t you agree?
A. Probably.
Q. Since he was arrested on the 11th of June, ’83?
A. Yes, ma’am.
Q. And what does Henry Lee Lucas say about when this particular crime occurred?
A. According to this report, it says, “In this case, if I can recall right, it was anywhere from the 5th of May until the 6th of May. I may be off a day
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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or two, but I don’t think so.”
Q. Okay. Now, did that match up with the facts as you knew them on that day when you were in that room?
A. No, it does not.
Q. Okay.
Q. What does he say about the location and where he went off of Interstate 10 to commit this murder? Would you please tell the Court?
A. It says here, “The best I can remember, I went north off there. I could be wrong. It seemed like I turned north off Interstate 10.
Q. Okay. Then what does he say?
A. “And I traveled about 30, 30 minutes off of Interstate 10 driving around in different neighborhoods.”
Q. Okay. Now, does that meet with the facts as you knew them to be on that day?
A. I don’t understand what you mean by that, Ms. Sipes.
Q. Was the house of Librada Apodaca north of Interstate 10 in El Paso County, Texas?
A. No, it is not.
Q. So therefore, that did not meet with the facts as you knew them on that day, did it, sir?
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
It did not.
Q. Okay. How does Mr. Lucas describe his entry into the home of the woman that he murdered?
A. It says here, “Went in through the kitchen door.”
Q. Now, did that meet with the facts of this crime as you knew them on the day that you took this confession?
A. No, it did not.
Q. There was absolutely no possibility that Henry Lee Lucas went through the kitchen door and committed this murder. Isn’t that correct?
A. That’s correct.
Q. Okay. Now, what does Henry Lee Lucas say in his statement on the 19th about where he first struck the victim and where all of the blows were had by the victim? What does he say?
A. It says here, “And I caught her just before she got to the front door of the house. And when she did, I hit her.”
Q. Okay. There at the front door of the house was there any blood?
A. No, ma’am.
Q. And does that fit with the facts as you knew them to be on that day?
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
No, it does not.
Q. In fact, most of the blood was back in one of the bedrooms, wasn’t it, sir?
A. Yes, it was.
Q. Okay. Now, what does Henry Lee Lucas say about washing up and leaving blood on a towel?
A. “I washed my handle, and washed my face off and my arms and dried off on a towel that was hanging there on that sort of a rack like.”
Q. Now, had there been any bloody towel found at the scene as you knew the facts to be on that day?
A. That, I don’t remember. I don’t recall if there was any towels with blood.
Q. Okay. What does Henry Lee Lucas say he found there as far as property was concerned?
A. He found some old silver that was there.
Q. Old silver. Now, he doesn’t say silver jewelry, he doesn’t say silverware, he doesn’t say anything other than just old silver. Is that correct?
A. That’s correct.
Q. Now, did you know or has any silver turned up missing?
A. Not to my knowledge.
Q. Okay. What does he say about her purse and the money in the purse?
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
That her purse was over sort of beside the bed on an old, I guess you would call it, nightstand.
Q. Did he take money out of it?
A. “And I took some money out of it.”
Q. Okay. Now, does that fit with the facts as you knew them to be on that day?
A. I don’t recall if there was a purse there or not. I don’t remember.
Q. Wasn’t the purse still there in the closet with some $80 of cash in it undisturbed?
A. There was one purse in the closet, yes, ma’am.
Q. Was there an empty purse there by where Henry Lee Lucas says there was?
A. I don’t recall if there was or not.
Q. Were there any antique items missing from the home? Any antiques, had they been reported as missing?
A. No, ma’am, they had not been reported as missing.
Q. Does Henry Lee Lucas tell you there he took some antiques?
A. He says he took - - that he was looking. “I went back in the den and looked around in there for some old china and I couldn’t find any.”
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. Then what does he say in the next sentence?
A. “And this radio was sitting there on sort of a table and I took it.”
Q. Then what does he say in the next sentence?
A. “there was another - - a couple other items that I took out of the house which was antique items, and I went from there.”
Q. Okay. And so were there ever any antiques missing from this home?
A. Not that I know of.
Q. Okay. Did that fit with the facts as you knew them to be on that day?
A. At that time we didn’t know exactly what was missing.
Q. Okay. And what about the radio?
A. We didn’t know if there was a radio missing or not.
Q. And how does he tell you that he got out of the house?
A. Well, he went on back through the back of the house.
Q. And he just walked out that back kitchen door. Is that what he leads you to believe?
A. He is talking about the back of the house. It’s the only door is the kitchen.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. Did that fit with the facts as you knew them to be on that day?
A. No, it did not.
Q. And read for the Court, would you, please, how Henry Lee Lucas describes his leaving the home?
A. “I drove from there on around - - back around to - - I can’t think of the name of that road now, but there is a road that goes back sort of, well, it’s the same road that goes all the way across the mountains up there in - - I guess it makes it through El Paso.”
Q. And what would you assume that road to be?
A. I would assume that would be Zaragoza Road.
Q. You wouldn’t assume it to be Trans Mountain?
A. No, ma’am.
Q. You want to read it one more time?
A. “I go in and I drove from there on around - - back around through - - I can’t think of the name of that road now, but there is a road that goes all the way across the mountains up there in - - I guess it makes it through El Paso.”
Q. What’s the next sentence?
A. “I guess before you get to the New Mexico side.”
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. And you think that’s Zaragoza?
A. Well, I had not read up to the New Mexico side.
Q. Now, he doesn’t describe the physical appearance of the woman, does he? Is that basically the end of the confession?
A. He describes what she was wearing, yes, ma’am.
Q. Okay. You want to go ahead and read that?
A. Which one?
Q. What does he say about her physical appearance?
A. The clothing she was wearing or the physical appearance or - -
Q. No, about her physical appearance. What I want to ask you, Detective, is how is it you knew that it was Librada Apodaca he was talking about?
A. It doesn’t say. I can’t see any description here on - -
Q. Now, he had given a description the day before to Jerry Smith. Isn’t that right?
A. Yes, ma’am.
Q. And you have seen that taped confession, haven’t you, and how does he describe the woman there to Jerry Smith?
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
About five-two, five-three, about 100, maybe 115, 120 pounds.
Q. One hundred and what?
A. 115 to 120 pounds.
Q. Five-two to five-three, 115 to 120 pounds. Can you estimate for me, sir, how tall Librada Apodaca was?
A. She was about five-two - - five-one, five-two.
Q. How much did she weigh?
A. About 10- - - I’m just guessing - - 125, 130 pounds.
Q. Sir, isn’t it true that Librada Apodaca was a rather large woman?
A. She was not heavy. She was just - - She was short and I would say maybe 130 pounds.
Q. Wouldn’t it be more likely to say she weighed about 155, 160 pounds?
A. I don’t think she weighed that much.
Q. You don’t think she weighed that much. Did you ever look on the autopsy to see how much she weighed?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Okay. How old does he say the woman was?
A. Maybe 60, close to 60, maybe a little older.
Q. And how old was Librada Apodaca?
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
I think she was 72.
Q. 72. He says from 50 to 60, maybe a little older?
A. She was 60 to - - close to 60, maybe a little older.
Q. And does he describe her as skinny?
A. Skinny-looking, if I can remember what it says here.
Q. Would anybody ever describe Librada Apodaca as skinny?
A. I don’t know how people would describe her. She was not fat. I don’t know if she would be described as thin.
Q. They wouldn’t describe Librada Apodaca as a large woman?
A. Not - - I would not describe her as a large woman?
A. You would not.
MR. PONTON: Your Honor, I have to go across the street for a very brief hearing on another case.
THE COURT: All right. Go ahead.
MR. PONTON: I’ll be back in about 15 minutes, but Ms. Sipes - -
THE COURT: She don’t need you. Go on.
Q. (BY MS. SIPES) So it’s your testimony, then,
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
that that physical description would apply to Librada Apodaca?
Well, it’s close, close enough.
Q. Close enough. What made you think that these two confessions were talking about Librada Apodaca?
A. Well, he was describing a lot of things that were close enough to where he was a very good suspect for the case. And being that he had been confessing to all those other murders, we thought that he might be off a little bit on the description and on the actual description of the method he went to the house and so forth and about things inside the house.
Q. Okay. After it had been determined that his fingerprints were not present, didn’t you and Detective Perez ask him if he had been wearing surgical gloves? That was one of the questions you-all asked in Sierra Blanca. Isn’t that true?
A. According to this, yes, Benny did ask him.
Q. What did Benny ask him?
A. “Did you wear any gloves?”
Q. And this is after the test had been made and had confirmed that Mr. Lucas’ fingerprints were not at the Apodaca residence there on Irma Place?
A. I don’t know if the test had been made.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. Sir, would you look at those two statements and tell me what he said in those two statements that confirmed in your mind that he was talking about the death of Librada Apodaca?
A. Yes, ma’am. He starts talking about the axe being in the room, about striking her with an axe.
Q. Was the axe in the room or was it regularly kept out there behind the washing machine.
A. It was - - The information we had was that it was usually kept in the washing machine - - in back of the washing machine.
Q. She didn’t regularly keep it there in the bedroom, did she?
A. I Don’t know if she did. I think the information that we had was that the axe was usually in the back of it.
Q. How does Henry describe that axe, as a single blade or a double blade?
A. Is it here? I don’t recall how he described it.
Q. He doesn’t describe the axe in either of these two, does he, sir?
A. Not that I can see.
Q. Do you recall him describing it in the
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
statement that he gave to the El Paso Police Department on the 20th?
I don’t recall.
Q. You don’t recall. Do you ever recall him saying it was a single-blade axe?
A. No, I don’t recall that.
Q. What else makes you think that it was Librada Apodaca he was talking about?
A. On this here?
Q. Yes, sir, on either one or both.
A. On both of them?
Q. Yes.
A. Well, he ransacked the house, he killed her with the axe, he had sex with her.
And on this one here, this one here on the desk, like I said, the only thing I knew at that time was what Detective Jerry Smith had told me about him chopping her up and about him having sex with a lady and then being in the home.
Q. Okay, sir. So those are the items, aren’t they, sir, that you provided Detective Jerry Smith with, that there had been sex, there had been an old woman, your aunt, and that it had been chopping with an axe and it took place in her home. Isn’t that true?
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Yes, ma’am.
Q. Okay. So then after that interview - - or before the interview, did you-all visit with Henry Lee Lucas any?
A. Before the interview?
Q. Before the tape.
A. Before the tape? Yes, we did.
Q. How long would you say you visited with him?
A. I don’t know exactly how long that was.
Q. When you started your interview with Henry Lee Lucas there on the 19th, you knew he had just been taken out north of Sierra Blanca to where a man from El Paso had been murdered, didn’t you?
A. I did not know it.
Q. You didn’t know that an El Pasoan had been murdered over in Sierra Blanca and Henry Lee Lucas had confessed to it?
A. I did not know it.
Q. That a Texas Ranger drove him out there moments before your interview?
A. No ma’am, I did not know that.
Q. And that they found his confession to be false?
A. I did not know that.
Q. That he drove them to that spot, also?
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
I did not know that.
Q. Directed them and gave them the directions of how to get there?
A. No, ma’am, I did not know that.
Q. And found that was a false confession?
A. I did not know that.
Q. And this was moments before you took the taped confession of Henry Lee Lucas?
A. I did not know that.
Q. Did you visit with him about the facts of the case or show him any photographs or part of your file?
A. I did not show him any photographs.
Q. Did Detective Perez?
A. No, he did not.
Q. And after that, sir, the interview was terminated at approximately what time?
A. There was a postinterview after the tape, also.
Q. Okay.
A. Where he draw us a diagram of the house.
Q. Do you have those diagrams?
A. I do not.
Q. You didn’t make any tape recording of all of these facts that he told you that Detective Perez
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
made notes about, did you?
No, ma’am, it was not recorded.
Q. You-all didn’t start the tape machine up again and ask him about those peculiar facts that are pertinent to the Librada Apodaca murder, you just taped the part that wasn’t pertinent, didn’t you, sir?
A. We just taped that part right there.
Q. Okay. And you turned it off when he got over the facts that Detective Perez has testified to, didn’t you?
A. I don’t know what he testified to.
Q. How long would you say that postinterview took?
A. Ms. Sipes, I do not remember how long it took.
Q. Did you give him his warnings before you started the interview?
A. Detective Perez did.
Q. And how was that conducted?
A. He - - Originally when we sat down, he read it from the Miranda warning card.
Q. Did Detective Lucas - - I mean, did Henry Lee Lucas sign anything?
A. I’m pretty sure he did.
Q. And prior to this, had you contacted Mr.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Lucas’ attorney there in Georgetown, Mr. Higginbotham?
No, he he did not want an attorney present.
Q. The only person that you had talked to had been a law enforcement agency, an agent, Texas Ranger Clayton Smith?
A. We talked to him.
Q. That was the only person’s permission that you had asked. Isn’t that right?
A. Okay. And thereafter, sir, what took place after the postinterview?
A. We asked Mr. Lucas if he could bring us - - if he would come to El Paso and show us where the house was located.
Q. Okay. What did he say?
A. He said yes, he would.
Q. And you met with Mr. Lucas the next day. Is that correct?
A. That’s correct.
Q. And I believe you testified that you met him at Southwest Air Rangers?
A. Yes, ma’am.
Q. And did you meet him at the plane or did you meet him indoors or outdoors?
A. We met him inside the - -
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. The reception area?
A. - - the building, yes, ma’am.
Q. What other witness were there other than law enforcement agency people?
A. Just ourselves.
Q. Was anybody else there at the reception desk?
A. I’m sure there was somebody there.
Q. Okay. And was Texas Ranger Monte Malloy there?
A. I don’t think we was there. I don’t recall if he was there or not.
Q. I believe it’s your testimony that you rode in a second car behind the one in which Mr. Lucas was traveling. Is that right?
A. That’s correct.
Q. And that you-all proceeded to Forti’s restaurant?
A. That’s correct.
Q. Whereupon Mr. Lucas had lunch with you, Detective Perez, Clayton Smith of the Texas Rangers, the pilot from the DPS, Detective Ed Uribe. Who else was there?
A. I think Lieutenant Lanahan was with us, but I don’t remember for sure.
Q. Okay. Who picked up the lunch tab that day?
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
I did.
Q. Okay. Did Henry Lee Lucas tell you the circumstances under which he would travel to the home of the victim?
A. Yes, ma’am, he did.
Q. Did he lay down certain guidelines to you?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. And did that include that no taped recording would be made?
A. No, I don’t recall him saying anything about a tape recording.
Q. Okay. Who was it that decided not to make a tape recording of this trip to the victim’s house?
A. It was just nobody decided. We just didn’t do it.
Q. Just didn’t do it. Now, he had been out here in January of 1984 and he traveled about in a big van with all kinds of recording equipment. Do you know why it was decided not to record this trip?
A. We figured that if he would take us to the scene and would locate - - would find the scene for us, that would be good enough for us.
Q. But you didn’t think it would be important to make a record of that trip, sir?
A. It was being - - We did not think of making a
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
A video, a video or a - -
Q. Audio?
A. - - audio.
Q. And why was it that it was important to make an audio the day before in Sierra Blanca, but it wasn’t important to make an audio of his further confession of how he got to the home of the victim there on Irma Place?
A. Like I explained before, it was just something we did not think about.
Q. Now, you weren’t in the automobile, so you don’t know what was said. Is that correct?
A. That’s correct.
Q. And you have not had any opportunity to look at a tape, so - - or view a tape or listen to a tape. Is that correct?
A. No, I have not.
Q. So you don’t know what was said or done in that automobile?
A. No, I don’t.
Q. Was Henry Lee Lucas handcuffed while in the automobile?
A. I think he was.
Q. Okay. There at Forti’s, had he received any special treatment?
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
I think he wanted a cheese sandwich. They didn’t have any bread, so they had to buy some bread, some white bread.
Q. They didn’t have to send out for some special cheese for Henry?
A. Not that - - I think it was just the bread. I think it was bread.
Q. Just the bread. The owners didn’t have to leave and go buy special cheese?
A. I don’t think so. I think it was just the bread. I might be wrong.
Q. Did you ever say to one of the owner there at the restaurant, “You have got to keep this boy happy so he will keep talking”?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Did you hear anyone else make that remark to them?
A. No, ma’am, I did not.
Q. Who made the request of the owners to provide this food, be it bread or cheese?
A. Detective Perez.
Q. Detective Perez. Now, you were present when the home was entered by the law enforcement people that day. Is that correct?
A. Yes, I was.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. Can you tell us after the arrival of the owner of the home and her daughter how it was that you came to enter the home and what happened in there?
A. We entered the home through the side door, I would say, the kitchen door.
Q. Who-all entered?
A. Mr. Lucas, Detective Perez, Detective Uribe, myself, Clayton Smith, and the pilot.
Q. Okay. Now, you entered through the kitchen door. Did Mr. Lucas tell you that that’s how he entered that home?
A. Yes, ma’am.
Q. And you knew that not to be the facts, didn’t you?
A. Yes, ma’am.
Q. And did you go into the living room?
A. Yes, we did.
Q. And who was in that living room?
A. All of us.
Q. How about the owner and the little girl?
A. I don’t think they were in the living room. I think they stayed mainly in the den.
Q. Okay. What, if anything, did Mr. Lucas show you in the living room?
A. He showed us where the lady had died.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. Did he go over there by the front door like he had just told you the night before?
A. He walked around the house, and he was mainly with Detective Perez and Uribe and I was just staying behind.
Q. But my question, sir, to you, just in the evening before, in the late hours, 8:00 or 9:00, he had told you that the woman had almost got out the front door and say, “This is where I grabbed her, caught her and hit her,” or something like that?
A. I wasn’t close enough to hear him talk to the officers. I don’t know what he told the officers.
Q. So you don’t know anything that he said in the house?
A. Not - - I wasn’t close enough to hear. You know, at certain times I would be close enough, but at that time I do not know what he told the officer about the door.
Q. Was a recording, a tape or video, either video or audio, made of what Henry Lee Lucas was saying in that home as he walked about and talked about the killing?
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
No, it was not.
Q. Do you know why that is?
A. Like I said before, we just overlooked that.
Q. Isn’t a tape recording part of your regular equipment, Officer - - Sergeant?
A. Not really. We hardly ever use a tape recording in the investigations.
Q. When you go out to talk to a confessed murderer, you don’t make a tape recording of what he is telling you?
A. I don’t understand what you mean by that.
Q. Wouldn’t it be normal police procedure to tape record what a confessed murderer is telling you about the murder? Wouldn’t that just be very simple normal procedure? A. It could be, but we hardly do that. We don’t usually - -
Q. How does a police officer come by a tape recorder? Does he have to check it out or does he have one assigned to him? Does he use his own?
A. We have tape recorders in the office that are available to detectives.
Q. Do they have to check them out?
A. No, not really. They just go get them.
Q. Is there a time record on who checks them
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
out?
No, there is not.
Q. Do they ever lose them? A. No, they don’t, not that I know of.
Q. There is no record of who checks out tape recorders and if they keep them or if they lose them or whether they turn it back in or - -
A. NO, we don’t keep a record of who checks them out.
Q. So it’s your testimony, then, that you only heard part of what was said by Henry Lucas in the home? A. Yes, ma’am.
Q. Did you hear anything being said about the carpet there in the living room? A. No, I did not. I don’t know what you mean by carpet.
Q. Well, the rug. Was there a rug in the living room, a rug on the floor?
A. There was a carpet, yes, ma’am.
Q. And did you hear Henry Lee Lucas say anything about it?
A. The only thing I saw is when he was pointing at the officers, I guess he was showing them where the blood was. I don’t know what he was showing them.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. Had the carpet been replaced?
A. I don’t think it had. I don’t know.
Q. What, if anything, did you hear Henry Lee Lucas say within that home? A. Really nothing that - - just - - he was just showing the officers and taking them around where she was and what he had done inside the house and so forth. But I actually did not see or hear - - I mean, I did not hear him say anything about what went on.
Q. Other than the people who lived there, how many people were in that house on the Lucas case including Mr. Lucas?
A. I think - - Let’s see. I think there was seven of us including Mr. Lucas.
Q. Seven?
A. Two rangers, Lucas - - Six of us, I think. Six of us, yeah.
Q. How was Henry Lee Lucas dressed compared to how the law enforcement personnel was dressed?
A. Oh, he was dressed - - he had on jeans. I think he was wearing blue jeans. I don’t know what he was - - I don’t recall how he was dressed. He was not wearing a suit.
Q. Was it obvious that MR. Lucas was a prisoner?
A. I think he was handcuffed, so that might be
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
pretty obvious that he was a prisoner.
Q. So as he was going around there he was handcuffed and it would have been obvious to anyone there in the area that this was a man who was in custody?
A. Yes, ma’am.
Q. And while in custody he made numerous statements there at the house which were not recorded. Is that right?
A. That’s correct.
Q. While there at the house, did you discover anything about this crime that you had not already known?
A. Myself, I did not.
Q. Did anyone else?
A. I don’t know if Detective Perez and Detective Uribe, the one that was with hi, they might have found something.
Q. Can you tell us just very briefly how it came that you-all left the home there at Irma Place? A. We got through there and we just came back to the office.
Q. Were the same people traveling in the same cars?
A. Yes, ma’am.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. So you were not party to any of his conversations once you-all left the lower valley area? A. I was not.
Q. So when did you see Henry Lucas again?
A. I saw him in the office, Benito Perez’ office.
Q. Okay. This was about what time? A. It was - - I believe that was after the videotape. I believe that is when it was when I saw him there.
Q. Where were you during the videotape?
A. I was conferring with my lieutenant.
Q. Lanahan?
A. Yes, ma’am.
Q. And you were not present during the videotape. Is that correct?
A. That’s correct.
Q. And so you saw him after the video was made. Had a written statement already been made, also?
A. No, that I don’t recall.
Q. What offices were you in?
A. The robbery offices.
Q. Who was present other than MR. Lucas and Detective Perez and yourself?
A. There were other officers in the office
Page 1224
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
going in and out.
Q. What about Ranger Smith?
A. He was with him.
Q. Okay. Did you continue to discuss this case?
A. Not with them. I was - - Like I say, I was conferring with the lieutenant, bringing him up to date on what had happened.
Q. Did you call members of your family to let them know that someone had confessed to what you thought was the Librada Apodaca killing?
A. No, I did not.
Q. You did not call members of your family. And was a record made of that postvideotaped interview of Henry Lee Lucas?
A. I did not make one.
Q. Did anyone else, to your knowledge?
A. Not unless Detective Perez made it.
Q. Was he still in custody at that time?
A. Well, he was in custody of the Texas Rangers at the time.
Q. Okay. Did anything that he told you in that postvideo interview lead to evidence of this crime that you did not know about? A. No.
Q. Prior to - -
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Not that I can recall.
Q. Not that you can recall. When was the next time you talked with Clayton Smith? A. That’s a good question. I think that Detective Perez had made arrangements for Mr. Lucas to be brought back to El Paso to see if we could locate other crimes he could have committed in El Paso.
Q. Okay. Were those arrangements made?
A. Those arrangements were made.
Q. During those conversations and while making those arrangements, did the Librada Apodaca case come up in conversation?
A. Not to my knowledge. They maybe might have come up between Benito and Clayton.
Q. Okay. Henry Lee Lucas came back to El Paso. Is that correct?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. And did he work with essentially the same people that he had on September the 20th, 1984?
A. Yes, ma’am.
Q. And were any changes made?
A. What do you mean by changes? Q. Were the interviews and the trips conducted in the same manner?
Page 1226
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
I think this time they did - - they did tape the trip.
Q. Was is that?
A. I guess the detective decided that we better tape it this time.
Q. Had you-all discussed it there at one of those early morning conferences in crimes against persons?
A. Discuss what, ma’am?
Q. The fact that you had not made a tape before and had made a decision then to tape these confessions?
A. We were kind of disappointed we had not taped him the first time. We should have thought about it. We just overlooked it, so we thought we better tape it this time.
Q. Did Texas Ranger Smith ever mention to you that he made a habit of taping all of the confessions that Henry Lee Lucas made whether on the road or in Georgetown?
A. No, ma’am, he did not tell me that.
Q. Did Texas Ranger Clayton Smith have a recorder that day?
A. Not to my knowledge. I don’t know if he had or not.
Page 1227
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. Were you present during any of the travels of Henry Lee Lucas in his confessions that he made after September?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. And did you travel in the automobile with him?
A. I did.
Q. Were you present when the tapes were made?
A. Yes, ma’am.
Q. And had struck up a little bit of rapport between you and Henry Lee. Is that right?
A. Well, we were talking to him, I guess.
Q. And had Henry Lee Lucas told you that he was making these confessions for the families of the victims? A. Yes, ma’am.
Q. And that he wanted them to rest assures that some finality had come to these murder investigations?
A. He did mention something to that effect.
Q. And he was interested in helping the families. Is that right?
A. Yes, ma’am.
Q. HE Knew that you were a law enforcement officer whose family had suffered a loss with the death of Librada Apodaca?
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
I don’t think he knew that she was my aunt. I never told him.
Q. You don’t think he knew that?
A. No, ma’am.
Q. And did you find any bodies or any statistical evidence that a murder had been committed - - any murders had been committed on the trip in October of ’84?
A. He did take us to the site of a murder that occurred back in the 19- - - I believe in 1976.
Q. Where was this?
A. It’s up there off of Doniphan Drive close to - - What is the name of that? Border Town? Is that Border Town? What is that, Border Town? What is that?
A. Border - -
MR. MOODY: Borderland.
Close to Borderland.
Q. (BY MS. SIPES) Was this a murder that took place on the river?
A. Yes, ma’am.
Q. Had he been asked about this before?
A. Had he been asked about this before? I don’t know if he had or not.
Q. Had he been taken there in his trip in
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
the early part of 1984?
I don’t know if he had or not.
Q. Were any bodies found as a result of his confessions?
A. No, ma’am.
Q. Did Detective Greg Lucas ask permission to terminate these investigations?
A. Not to me, he didn’t.
Q. Did he to Lieutenant Lanahan?
A. I don’t know if he did or not.
Q. Was it discussed in the crimes against persons conferences?
A. Again, if it was, I do not recall.
Q. You do not recall.
THE COURT: Ms. Sipes, get to a stopping place so we can take a short break.
MS. SIPES: Now is as good a time as any.
THE COURT: Mr. Moody, here is a copy for you and here is Mr. Ponton’s.
(A recess was taken.)
THE COURT: Ms. Sipes, you may continue. Please be seated, ladies and gentlemen. Ms. Sipes, you may continue.
Q. (BY MS. SIPES) Mr. Apodaca - - I mean, Sergeant Apodaca, have you ever seen the autopsy in
Page 1230
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
this case?
No, I haven’t.
Q. Are you aware that it refers to the victim of Librada Apodaca as mildly obese?
A. I did not see the autopsy report.
Q. Would you disagree with the doctor’s description of her as mildly obese?
A. Yes, I would.
Q. Sir, back out to the time frame in which you-all were inside the house located there at 144 Irma Way reportedly going through the house and following Mr. Lucas, do you recall a time when the rug or the carpet there in the living room was moved back?
A. I sure don’t recall that.
Q. Do you recall assisting in that?
A. No, I do not.
Q. Do you recall seeing it done?
A. I don’t recall seeing it.
Q. So you have no recollection of that whatsoever?
A. I don’t remember anything about that.
Q. Are you aware that Detective Greg Lucas finalized his investigation without giving any credibility to the other confessions that Henry Lee
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Lucas made to crimes in El Paso?
I’m not aware of that.
Q. You’re not aware of that?
A. No.
Q. Were you aware at the time that you took this confession from Henry Lee Lucas that he had confessed to the murder of Lee Harvey Oswald?
A. I was not aware of that.
Q. Had you known that at the time would you have given as much credibility to the statement of Henry Lee Lucas there in Sierra Blanca?
A. I probably would have.
Q. You probably would have. Did you know at the time that he gave you that statement that he had confessed to the murder of people in Finland, Switzerland, Canada and Mexico?
A. No, I was not aware of that.
Q. As well as every state in the United States?
A. I was not aware of that.
Q. If you had known that, would that have reflected upon the credibility which you gave Henry Lee Lucas that night in Sierra Blanca?
A. If he would have given us details about another case, it would have made no difference to me about him coming to El Paso.
Page 1232
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. If you had known that he had been presented this case before by other officers and had traveled to the location before with other officers, would you have given his statement as much credibility as you did that evening?
A. I don’t know if I would have or not?
Q. Sir, and it’s your testimony, then, that the interview by Detective Greg Lucas of December 20th, 1983, was taped after obtaining the permission of Mr. Lucas’ attorney, Mr. Higginbotham. Isn’t that correct?
A. I’m sorry. I didn’t understand the question.
Q. The interview of Mr. Lucas took place in 12-20-1983 in Georgetown, Texas, and having the permission of Mr. Higginbotham, his attorney, was taped. That conversation was taped and you saw it there in the CAP office?
A. I saw the report. It was a big report. But I believe it was transcribed - - it was a transcription of the tape, but I never saw the tape.
Q. Okay. And his trip to El Paso on February the 13th of 1984 with Detective Greg Lucas was also taped? A. I think it was. I’m not sure.
Q. And his so-called confession of September
Page 1233
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
18th, 1984, by Detective Smith in Odessa was taped?
As far as I know, it was taped.
Q. And the confession which you and Detective Perez took on 9-20-1984 was taped - - 9-19-84 was taped?
A. Yes, it was.
Q. There was no tape of the trip to the home or any of the extraneous materials that you and Detective Perez have testified to?
A. There was no tape done.
Q. There was a tape on October 23rd through the 25th, 1984, when he traveled here in El Paso and confessed to numerous crimes. Is that correct?
A. Yes, ma’am.
Q. Is - - Was the Librada Apodaca home there on Irma Way where - - the Librada Apodaca home, was that an adobe home?
A. I think it’s - - I think it’s adobe with plaster.
Q. Does it appear to be adobe from the outside or the inside?
A. No, it doesn’t appear to be adobe. I think it’s - - Like I say, it has plaster on the outside.
Q. Has plaster and brick, does it not?
A. It has plaster and I think brick. I don’t
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
know. I would have to look at it.
MS. SIPES: I don’t want to enter into evidence. Do you have any objection? I don’t want to enter it into evidence. I just want to show them to him.
MR. MOODY: That’s fine.
MS. SIPES: May I approach the witness, Your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes, ma’am.
Q. (BY MS. SIPES) Sir, I hand you tow photographs and ask if you can identify those for the Court, please. Are those - - What are those?
A. Those are the photographs of the victim’s home.
Q. Does it appear to be adobe from the outside?
A. No, it doesn’t.
Q. And would there be any reason why a person going into that home in the nighttime would know or would think that that house was adobe?
A. It doesn’t appear to be.
Q. Sir, you investigated another relative as being a possible suspect in this murder, did you not?
A. I did not investigate any other relative.
Q. The office?
A. The office.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. The office did, did it not, the crimes against persons office?
A. Who was that?
Q. Robert Avalos, a grandson of the victim.
A. Detective Perez did investigate him, yes.
Q. And did you ever tell anyone at the crime scene on May the 28th of 1983 that you had found a clue connecting him to the murder?
A. No, ma’am, I did not.
Q. Did you ever obtain his fingerprints from California and compare them in this case?
A. I think that we have his - -
Q. Did the office?
A. Ma’am?
Q. Did the office ever obtain - -
A. I think the fingerprints were - - we do have a package on Mr. Avalos in our department.
Q. He was a grandson of the victim, was he not?
A. Yes, he is.
Q. He had lived there previously at her home. Isn’t that correct?
A. I don’t know if he did there or not.
Q. You don’t know whether he lived there for over a year?
A. I don’t think so. I’m not aware of it.
Page 1236
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. Did you ever determine his whereabouts at the time of the commission of this crime?
A. From Detective Perez, yes.
Q. Did you - - And where were you told that he was?
A. In California.
Q. Were you ever told that he was here in El Paso?
A. Not during the commission of the crime.
Q. Were you ever told that he was in El Paso during the commission of the crime and borrowing money?
A. No, nobody told me that.
Q. You were never told that. You were never told that he was recently - - that he was released from law enforcement agencies in California on the 24th day of May, 1983, and returned to El Paso and was here at the time of the commission of the offense?
A. No. No, ma’am.
Q. Okay. You investigated an individual by the name of Giovanny Valenzuela Chavez as a possible suspect, did you not?
A. Yes, we did.
Q. And he was an early suspect, wasn’t he, sir?
A. Yes, he was.
Page 1237
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. And when did he become a suspect?
A. He was identified as being a - - being in the - - at the victim’s home on the week of the murder.
Q. And did this individual have a police record and if so, what for?
A. He does have a police record, but I don’t know what he was arrested for.
Q. You participated in a deposition concerning the investigation that tool place into a confession that was made by Giovani Valenzuela Chavez. Isn’t that correct?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And prior to that confession being taken, he had been interviewed by a Detective Bailon of the El Paso Police Department?
A. I’m trying to recall whether or not he had been interviewed before the - - Would you ask me the question again? I’m trying to think.
Q. A confession was obtained by the police in Juarez from Giovany Valenzuela Chavez, is that correct, and where you present?
A. I was present when they were interrogating him, yes.
Q. Prior to the interrogation, he had already been interviewed by Detective Jose Bailon of the El
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Paso Police Department, had he not?
I don’t know if he had been interviewed by Detective Bailon or not.
Q. Isn’t it true, sir, that Giovany Valenzuela Chavez, now deceased, was interviewed by Detective Jose Bailon and he made a report back to you regarding the information that he had secured from that interview?
A. That, I do not recall, if Detective Bailon did talk to him or if it was that the Juarez police officer that did actually talk to him. He did tell me that he had got information that he had - - that the police in Juarez had talked to Giovany and he denied having any knowledge of the crime.
Q. So despite this denial, you and several other officers from the El Paso Police Department then proceeded to Juarez and conducted an interview of him, did you not?
A. We went to Juarez and conducted - - Detective Bailon and I went to Juarez.
Q. Okay. Had you received any information in any way, whether it be direct or through other individuals from an investigation that had been conducted by local private investigator, Jay J. Armes, concerning Giovany Valenzuela Chavez?
Page 1239
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
No, ma’am.
Q. Were you then requested to obtain from Giovany Valenzuela Chavez a semen sample and a blood sample in 1986?
A. Yes, we were.
Q. And who requested that of you?
A. The district attorney, Mr. Moody.
Q. Are you aware of the facts that led up to that request? A. No, I’m not.
Q. Had there been any investigation, to your knowledge, by you are anyone else if Giovany Valenzuela Chavez until 1986 when you received a request from the district attorney’s office?
A. Not unless Detective Perez went in there with him again, but I’m not aware of that. I’m talking about after I talked to him.
Q. Did you make any inquiry as to why you received this request in 1986 after you had taken a confession from Henry Lee Lucas several times?
A. No, I did not.
Q. You didn’t make inquiry?
A. No. We just met with Mr. Moody and Mr.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Moody wanted to know if we could get some blood and semen samples from Giovany.
Q. Did you know why this request had been made after you had taken these numerous confessions from Mr. Henry Lee Lucas?
A. No, ma’am. The only thing, it’s my opinion why it was done. But that’s my own opinion. I don’t know why it was done.
MS. SIPES: I pass the witness, Your Honor.
BY MR. MOODY:
Q. I’d like to go over just very briefly with you, I guess, that audiotaped interview with - - between Henry Lucas and Jerry Smith in Odessa.
Now, you have already stated or is it true that you did not see or hear the contents of this interview until after - - until much after your interviews with Henry Lucas? A. Correct.
Q. All right. Now, defense attorney was pointing out some of the inconsistencies in what was said by Henry Lucas and the facts of the case as you knew them when she was asking you on cross-examination. Is that correct?
Page 1241
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
That’s correct.
Q. All right. Were there also not numerous consistencies in what Henry Lucas was saying in that taped interview?
A. Let me see them again.
Q. Alright. We will start going over them. Did he - - DID Henry Lucas in that interview indicate to Jerry Smith the approximate time of the murder in El Paso?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. What time frame did he put it in there?
A. About two or three weeks before he was locked up.
Q. All right. What day was he locked up?
A. I believe it was June 11th, somewhere.
Q. Of ’83. And two or three weeks prior to that would put it in what time frame, around May 27th?
A. Approximately.
Q. Okay. Did he tell Detective Smith - - Or Lieutenant Smith asks just the basic question here, “Is there anything you can tell me about the particular murder?”
Did he mention anything about where the lady was when he first entered the house?
He says that she was in her bedroom.
Page 1242
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. Okay. And was that consistent - -
A. Yes, it was.
Q. - - with the facts of the case? A. Yes, it was.
Q. Does he mention whether or not she left the bedroom?
A. Yes, it does.
Q. All right. Was that consistent with the facts of the case?
A. Yes, it was.
Q. Did he mention the room in which he believed that he killed her? A. Yes, sir, he did - - does.
Q. What room was that?
A. In the living room.
Q. All right. And is that consistent with the location of the murder?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. Did he mention if he took any jewelry?
A. Yes, sir, he does.
Q. All right. And did you, in fact, ascertain if jewelry was missing and how did you know that?
A. Well, there was some jewelry found just outside of the home in the backyard, a piece of costume jewelry.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. And with some interviews with the family did it indicate that some jewelry was missing?
A. Yes.
Q. And did he state what type of jewelry he thought it was? A. Mexican jewelry.
Q. Okay. Did he further describe the color later?
A. Yes, turquoise jewelry.
Q. All right. And was there some turquoise jewelry missing?
A. We did find some turquoise jewelry outside of the house. Now, whether there was any turquoise missing or not, I don’t recall.
Q. But there was some that had been left behind?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did he state if he brought the axe into the home or was the axe inside the home?
A. He says that the axe was in the home.
Q. All right. AND was the murder weapon in this case from the home of the victim? Is that at consistent fact?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. All right. Did he say whether the house was a new house, an old house, anything like that?
Page 1244
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
He said it was an old house.
Q. All right. Is that consistent? Is it an old house? A. Yes, it was.
Q. All right. In regards to your-all’s taped interview in - - Let’s see. This is the tape recorded interview in Sierra Blanca, Texas.
Now, are there, like again, the defense attorney brought up the points that were inconsistent with the facts of the case.
Correct.
Q. Throughout this interview, did she not?
A. Yes, she did.
Q. But are there also many consistent facts in that interview?
A. Yes, it says - -
Q. Okay. Let’s go through those. Now, did - - was anything mentioned in that interview about whether or not there was a light on in the house? A. Yes, it does.
Q. And was - - did you-all have information that a light was on in the house that evening and then subsequently turned off?
A. Right.
Q. Was that fact consistent?
Page 1245
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Yes, it is.
Q. Now, he mentioned - - defense attorney talked about going through the doorway. And did he indicate how many steps were at the doorway?
A. Two steps.
Q. And is that consistent with that entrance?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. Again did he indicate the area in which the victim was initially found?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. What room was that?
A. The bedroom.
Q. Was that consistent?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did he indicate to you an area, one area, at least, where he struck the victim?
A. He said, “I caught her just before she got to the front door. And when she did” - - Let me see. Okay. “She fell towards the same part of the living room. I hit her maybe four, maybe five times with the axe.”
Q. Was she struck multiple times with the axe?
A. Yes, she was.
Q. Does it state any area other than, of course, the head area where she was struck?
Page 1246
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Okay. It says, “I hit her pretty close to center ways of the back with the axe.”
Q. All right.
(State’s exhibit marked, S-14)
Q. (BY MR. MOODY) I’ll show you what has been marked as State’s Exhibit 14. Is there a wound center ways between the shoulder blades in her back? A. Yes, sir, sure appears to be one.
Q. All right.
Q. Did he mention what kind of clothing she was wearing? A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right. What did he say she was wearing?
A. A pink slip and an old pair of - - old-fashioned pair of white panties.
Q. Was that, in fact, what she was wearing?
A. As far as I can recall, yes, sir, she was.
Q. All right. And about - - Was he asked anything about what was done with the clothing and where it was, what was done with it?
A. Said that, “I just - - I think I just took them off and threw them down there on the floor.”
MR. MOODY: I need to mark this.
(State’s exhibit marked, S-15.)
Q. (BY MR. MOODY) And I show you what has been
Page 1247
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
marked for identification purposes State’s Exhibit 15,and are her panties thrown down there next to the body?
Yes, sir.
Q. Did he mention anything as to what he did with the slip or how he had left that portion of the clothing?
A. It says here, “I don’t think I ever took it off her, just her slip and housecoat. I think I just - - I don’t think I took it off. I think I more or less pushed it up.”
Q. All right. And according to the photograph, that’s the way the body was found at the scene?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And was the clothing pushed up?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did he mention whether or not she had anything on her feet?
A. He said, “I don’t think she had anything on her feet.”
Q. And is that correct, according to the photograph?
A. Yes, sir.
MR. MOODY: All right. We will offer State’s Exhibits 14 and 15 for the purposes of this
Page 1248
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
hearing.
MS. SIPES: I have no objection, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Be admitted.
Q. (BY MR. MOODY) Had you given him those types of detailed information that I just went over with you?
A. No, I did not, sir.
Q. That were consistent with the crime?
A. I did not give him any information.
Q. Did anybody else, to your knowledge?
A. Not to my knowledge.
Q. Was he ever allowed to look at any crime scene photos?
A. No, he was not.
MR. MOODY: Pass the witness.
MY MS. SIPES:
Q. Sir, you were aware that Henry Lee Lucas had confessed to some, I believe 360 some-odd crimes. Isn’t that what he told you-all that day out at the - -
A. Something to that amount
Q. And you were aware, having listened to the tape that Jerry Smith made, that he was regularly shown photographs of the crime scenes, were you not?
Page 1249
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
I don’t know if they told me about that or not. I don’t recall him telling me anything about photographs.
Q. The particular photographs that you looked at here today and identified for the Court were photographs that were developed in June of 1983, were they not?
A. I imagine they were. Is there a date on it?
Q. They were made at the time very close to the murder. Isn’t that correct?
A. They usually make them right away, that’s correct.
Q. And you had possession of these at the time that you went out there to Sierra Blanca and interviewed Henry Lee Lucas, did you not?
A. I did not. But Detective Perez might have had it, but I don’t think he took it with him.
Q. Are you aware there were numerous tapes of other conversations where Henry Lucas says, “You’re going to have to show me a photograph first. I have killed so many I have to have some way to identify them”? Are you aware of that?
A. No, I was not.
Q. HE didn’t tell you that that night, did he?
A. No, ma’am.
Page 1250
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. YOU didn’t show this photograph to him that shows the underwear?
A. No, I did not.
Q. And you testified that in one of the statements that he says that he hot her on the back with the axe. Is that correct?
A. That’s correct.
Q. And he says he hit her pretty good, didn’t he? Weren’t those the words he used?
A. I think so.
Q. Hit her pretty good?
A. I think that’s what he said.
Q. Okay. Have you ever looked at the autopsy regarding the back of Librada Apodaca?
A. The autopsy report?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. No, I have not.
Q. Would you read for the clerk what the autopsy says about the back?
A. “Multiple dull abrasions are present on the back.”
Q. Turn the page.
A. “Especially over the right shoulder where they measure up to two inches at its greatest dimensions and one in the midline in the back which
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
barely breaks the skin measuring three inches.”
Q. There were dull abrasions to the back and abrasions which measured three inches and which barely broke the skin. Is that right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Does it say anything about being an axe wound?
A. No, it does not.
Q. Thank you sir. So you had this autopsy when you went out there and took that confession from Henry Lucas, did you not? It had been - -
A. It should have been in the case, yes, ma’am.
Q. May 28th, 1983, was the return on it?
A. Yes, ma’am.
Q. Isn’t that correct?
A. Un-hum.
Q. So you knew there was no heavy chopping to the back of Librada Apodaca when you took that statement. Isn’t that tight?
A. I did not - - I was not aware of the autopsy report, no ma’am.
Q. Okay. And the other items that you testified to on redirect by Mr. Moody are items that can clearly be seen from photographs?
A. Yes.
Page 1252
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. The steps there on the back door, the placement of the underwear in the living room.
Look at this autopsy once again and tell the Court, would you please, what she was wearing and tell the Court of Henry Lee Lucas mentioned this very noticeable - -
“She was wearing a long cotton housedress with a cartoon roadrunner on the front and the words, ‘My motor is running.’”
Q. A long cotton housedress with a roadrunner cartoon written on the front with the words?
A. “My motor is running.”
Q. My motor is running. Did Henry Lee Lucas mention a housedress that night or did he mention a cartoon or anything like that? A. No, ma’am, he didn’t.
Q. Okay.
MS. SIPES: I pass the witness.
MR. MOODY: No further questions.
THE COURT: Officer Apodaca, you may be excused.
Thank you, sir.
THE COURT: Who will be the next witness? MR. MOODY: Detective Greg Lucas. Let me see if he’s here. I told him I’d call him as soon as
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
we needed him.
THE COURT: Well, why don’t you take about a five-minute break and then call him and then we will come back.
(A lunch recess was taken.)
THE COURT: Please be seated, ladies and gentlemen.
THE COURT: Officer, would you please raise your right hand?
Thank you.
MR. PONTON: For the information of the Court, I requested prior to the witness coming here that he look for some photographs that were shown as - - that he had shown Henry Lucas during an interview between this witness and Henry Lucas in Georgetown on December 20th of 1983. And Mr. Moody informs me that they are still looking for them and they made a call to Detective Flynn to go and try to find those photographs during the testimony of this witness.
MR. MOODY: They just asked for them, Your Honor, just moments before we came in the courtroom.
THE COURT: All right.
Page 1254
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
GREG LUCAS,
having been previously duly sworn by the Court to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, was examined and testified as follows:
BY MR. MOODY:
Q. Detective Lucas, how long have you been employed by the El Paso Police Department?
A. 13 years.
Q. And in what division do you presently work?
A. Forgery, fugitive.
Q. And did you ever work in the homicide division?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. How long did you work in homicide?
A. A little less than two and a half years.
Q. While you were working in homicide, was one of the cases that was assigned to you the case of Elizabeth Allen?
A. Yes, it was.
Q. What was that case? Not going into all the details of it, but what primarily was the problem in that case?
A. Elizabeth Allen has been missing, I believe,
Page 1255
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
since 1978 or 1979, and she has never been found.
Q. She was, what, reported missing January 21st, 1980? A. That sounds about right.
Q. And it looked like she had last been seen January 20th, 1980?
A. Yes.
Q. Was her family concerned about her whereabouts?
A. Yes, sir, and they still are, to my knowledge.
Q. And in that regard, did her sister ever contact you regarding henry Lucas? A. Yes, she did.
Q. What was that all about?
A. Well, she was convinced that Henry Lucas was responsible for her disappearance.
Q. This was Elizabeth Allen’s sister?
A. Yes.
Q. When - - And did she tell you why she was convinced he was the responsible person?
A. Well, there were several reasons. As it turned out, there were more. Her car that disappeared was in California. She had sent a private investigator to talk to Henry Lucas before I
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
talked to him.
Q. Her automobile was discovered?
A. Yes, it was.
Q. In California. Whereabouts in California was that vehicle discovered?
A. I don’t remember the city. It was abandoned on the freeway.
Q. All right. And approximately how far was it from the home of Jack and O’Bera Smart?
A. I was told about 15 miles. I have never been out there, never measured it myself.
Q. All right. Did you know Jack and O’Bera Smart to be the acquaintances of Henry Lucas?
A. Yes.
Q. As a matter of fact, they were the ones that had sent Henry Lucas to Ringgold, Texas, to take care of a lady named Kate Rich?
A. That’s correct.
Q. Now, do you remember if any items were found inside the car?
A. The most important item was a thermos. There was also some food, some bread and mustard, et cetera, and also some napkins, I believe.
Q. A thermos like you would put coffee in?
A. Yes.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. And you said that she had hired or the family had hired a private investigator by the name of Mike Lee?
A. Yes.
Q. And who is he?
A. He is - - was a private investigator at the time that I talked to him.
Q. Okay. And had he done anything in regards to the Elizabeth Allen case?
A. He went and interviewed Henry Lucas.
Q. Where did he interview Henry Lucas, as far as you know?
A. In Georgetown, Texas.
Q. Then, was it your understanding that he had shown a picture of Mrs. Elizabeth Allen - - of Elizabeth Allen to Henry Lucas? A. Yes, he did.
Q. And based on that and the request by - - Was a request made by you - - to you by the sister of Elizabeth Allen to try to at least interview Henry Lucas about this case?
A. Well, she wanted me to find out if Henry Lucas was responsible.
Q. So did you make preparations to go to Georgetown, Texas, and for you yourself to interview
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Henry Lucas?
Yes, I did.
Q. At that time did you know very much about Henry Lucas?
A. Well, during that time period I went to a seminar on Henry Lucas that was put on by the rangers or it was not actually hosted by them but the rangers were there and gave some of the information that they had - - that they had received from him.
Q. So before going to Georgetown, Texas, to interview Henry Lucas, what preparation, if any, did you take before going down there to interview Henry Lucas?
A. Well, the first this I did was - - in the office I was sharing with Detective Flynn we had a large bookcase with a bunch of files of unsolved homicides that went back to the early ‘70’s, and I went through most of those files to see what information was in there, what kind of evidence there was, what kind of homicides there were, how they were committed, whether there was any evidence linking somebody that maybe they just couldn’t prove or whatever.
Q. So you went over basically your unsolved murders?
Page 1259
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Yes.
Q. Here in El Paso?
A. Yes, that’s correct.
Q. And, now, is the robbery office in a separate set of offices from the homicide office?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. Was the Librada Apodaca case among those cases that you looked through?
A. No, it was not.
Q. Why not?
A. Because the homicide was being investigated by the robbery detectives and they had the file in their office.
Q. Did you ever look at or go through the Librada Apodaca case?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Prior to going to Georgetown?
A. No.
Q. At any time?
A. No.
Q. Even to this day have you ever gone through the Librada Apodaca case?
A. No.
Q. Did you have any idea where she lived, where this murder occurred, how to get there?
Page 1260
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
The only thing I knew was that she was related to Sergeant Apodaca and that she lived in the lower valley. Other than that, I had no other information.
Q. If you had to today could you take us to that house?
A. No.
Q. Did you call the ranger - - rangers and set up an appointment or get an appointment to talk to Henry Lucas in Georgetown?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. When was that appointment set for?
A. December the 20th, 1983.
Q. Did anyone go with you?
A. Detective Martin Beltran of the - - he is assigned to the sex crime unit, which is also assigned to the robbery unit.
Q. All right. Did he - - Was there any case that he was going down there to discuss?
A. No, he was just going with me to help me with the investigation.
Q. Now, when you got down to Georgetown, did you interview Henry Lucas?
A. Yes.
Q. Where did you - - Where did this interview
Page 1261
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
occur?
There was a room that was set up for interview in the Williamson County jail facility in the courthouse.
Q. Did you videotape and audiotape that interview of - - that particular interview?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Did you know how to operate both the audio and videotape equipment?
A. Well, Henry showed me how to insert the machine. It was a little different than the one we used here, but we did not have any problems with it.
Q. Was it operating properly?
A. Yes, it was.
Q. Were the devices capable of taking down either video pictures and audio or just in regards to tape recorder, the audio portion?
A. Yes, they were capable.
Q. After you finished taking those or taking that interview, did you ever have occasion to really look at the audiotape - - or the videotape and replay the videotapes, the audiotapes?
A. Yes, I have.
Q. Were they true and correct copies of what had occurred?
Page 1262
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Yes.
Q. Were they ever altered or - - in any way, things added on to them or deleted from them?
A. No.
(State’s exhibits marked, S-16, S-17, S-18, and S-19.)
Q. (BY MR. MOODY) I show you what has been marked for identification purposes as State’s Exhibit 17, 16, 18 and 19 and ask you if these are the original video and audiotapes of your interviews in Georgetown, Texas, dated December 20th,. 1983?
A. Yes, they are.
Q. How can you identify them?
A. The face of most of it was written by Martin Beltran with his initials, which I recognize. My handwriting also appears on the labels.
Q. All right. Then, were these - - was this videotape subsequently transcribed?
A. Yes, it was.
Q. Did you check the transcription to make sure it was an accurate transcription of the video/audiotapes?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, in regards to this videotape, did you identify the voices on the tape?
A. Yes.
Page 1263
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. Did you read Henry Lucas his full and complete warnings?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you ask Henry Lucas if he wished to waive those rights?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Did he do so?
A. Yes.
Q. Did he ever request an attorney at any time during this interview?
A. No, he did not.
Q. And let’s see. Let’s go through this transcript, a few places in it. Are you familiar with this transcript?
A. Yes, this is the transcription from this tape.
Q. All right. Do you recall if you asked Henry Lucas approximately how many times he had been in El Paso prior to his arrest in June of ’83?
A. Yes, I did ask him that question.
Q. All right. Would you turn to page 2? What was his response?
A. Well, he counted out loud and he said about seven times.
All right. Did he ever talk to you in that
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
interview about picking up a woman at the El Paso truck stop?
Yes, he did.
Q. All right. Would you turn to page 10, please? Did he describe that woman?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. How does he describe her?
A. He said blondish-haired woman, approximately 35 to 40 years old, about five-foot tall to five-foot nine, maybe five-foot nine, and he called her a classic dressed woman.
Q. All right.
A. He also said she was - - Oh, excuse me.
Q. What else did he say?
A. He said she was well dresses and had a lot of Mexican jewelry.
Q. On page 11 did he tell you if he actually abducted this woman or what happened to her?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. Where did he say he abducted her from?
A. From a truck stop.
Q. Any particular part of the truck stop? Referencing page 11.
A. From the parking lot.
Q. Did he tell you what type of vehicle he was
Page 1265
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
driving on that occasion on page 12?
He said he had a Pontiac Catalina.
Q. Did he describe what color it was on that page?
A. White top with maroon - - the bottom was maroon.
Q. Okay. Going to page 13, did he tell what kind of license plates it had on it and what happened to that vehicle?
A. He said it did have Texas license plates and it was registered to another woman.
Q. Okay.
A. And her name was Martha Walker, he thought.
Q. Did he tell you what happened to that vehicle? In reference to probably page 13.
A. Oh, she said he left it in San Jon, New Mexico.
Q. Did he say why?
A. He called it San Juan in the beginning.
Q. Did he tell you when this incident occurred, this confrontation with this person at the truck stop in - -
A. He said it was June of ’83.
Q. Did he give you a time?
A. Time of day?
Page 1266
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. Yeah, approximately a time of the day that that occurred?
A. He said 2:00 or 2:30 in the morning - - or he said at night, and I asked him if it was in the morning and he said yes.
Q. Going to page 20, did he further describe her as to whether she was - - basically her weight, her height, her age?
A. He said that she was not light. She weighed a good 155 to 160 pounds and she was 30 to 35 - - Excuse me - - 35 to 40 years old and roughly five-foot-nine.
Q. Did he reference this incident with any particular person or somebody that he had called? I’ll reference you to page 23 on that.
A. He said after that he called Ruben from Deming, New Mexico, Rueben Moore.
Q. Did he say why he called Rueben?
A. He was out of money and he was going to go back, I believe.
Q. Okay. Now, I refer you to page 26. Going to another time frame, not June of ’83, did you question him about ever being in El Paso for any other type of incidents?
A. He talked about being here in 1981, in June.
Page 1267
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. did he discuss going into what he called Mexico?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. What did he say about that?
A. He said that he was with Frank, who was Becky’s brother, and Becky and Ottis Toole.
Q. Okay. Did he describe the area in Mexico to you? Referring to page 28.
A. I asked about the landscape. He said it was a small town.
Q. All right. Are you familiar and did you point him out- - did you have some pictures of the international bridge?
A. Yes. I did of the one at Cordova, yes.
Q. Did he indicate that was the one?
A. No, he said that was not the one.
Q. All right. When he mentioned a small town, are you familiar with Ysleta? A. Yes, I am.
Q. Is that - - Has that ever been considered a small town that El Paso grew up around?
A. That’s correct.
Q. Does it have the appearance of small town?
A. Yes, it does.
Q. Does he describe any buildings in the area?
Page 1268
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Referring you to page 29.
He remembered a, what he called a rescue type of building, sort of a sand type building near a gas station.
Q. Did he tell you how he would spend the night on that particular trip - - Referring you to page 31 - - where he had stayed, whether in a motel or what he would do?
A. He said they had stayed in the car overnight.
Q. Referring you to page 37, did he mention an additional murder that you were familiar with? A. He talked about when he went through Arizona that they had a head of a - - I believe that it was a woman that they had decapitated. The head was in the car. And when they had gone through the vegetable - - the fruit-vegetable deal there that he went through and they did not search the car, but the head was in the car.
Q. All right. Did the - - Were you familiar with that case that he was referring to?
A. Yes, I had heard about it in the seminar I went to.
Q. We he telling you where he had left the head and where the body was? A. Yes. He said that the body was in Plainview
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
and that the head was in the car and he buried it in Arizona later.
Q. All right. Were you familiar with the case out of Plainview, Texas, with the decapitation?
A. I knew the general details of it from the seminar. I didn’t know any of the actual details. I never investigated it or spoken firsthand with any of the investigators.
Q. Referring you to page 59, did he ever talk to you about going into the truck stop in June of ’83, when he referred to it first as June of ’83?
A. He said approximately June the 7th or 8th of ’83 he stopped at a truck stop there.
Q. Okay. Referring to page 85, did Henry Lucas ever discuss whether or not he had broken into some homes in El Paso?
A. He did say he broke in some homes. Those were his words.
Q. Okay. Did he ever talk to you about how he broke into some of those homes?
A. One he said he went through the window.
Q. Did he tell you if there was anyone in the house when he went in?
A. Yes.
Q. Who was in the house?
Page 1270
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Just let me find it here. I believe he said an old woman. Let me find it.
Q. Referring to probably page 87 and 88.
A. He said, “There was a woman asleep when he went in.”
Q. All right. He inferred that there were other people with him on that occasion?
A. Yes.
Q. Did he state whether or not he or the people with him raped the lady?
A. His words are, “We raped her back out there.”
Q. All right. Did he describe that lady to you as far as how old she was, what she looked like, her basic weight?
A. He said, “She was a woman, maybe 50, 55 years old, sort of gray-haired, sort of heavy build.”
Q. All right. Now, that woman, though, he did not say he killed her, did he?
A. No, he said they left her tied up.
Q. Now, going to that particular interview, did you terminate that interview that day?>
A. Yes.
Q. And the types of photographs that you showed Henry Lucas in regards to this interview, what were they, crime scene photos?
Page 1271
MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
No, they were just - - Before I went up there Detective Flynn and I discussed it. And in order to get a bearing on what he might discuss, we took pictures of landmarks including the Cordova bridge, the truck stops - - I knew that he stopped at truck stops quite often - - and also some of the exits along the way to see if he could remember them.
Q. And why was it that you had photographed truck stops and that type - -
A. Well, from my experience at the seminar, I learned that he favored truck stops. He would stay at truck stops quite often.
Q. And the truck stop that he was referring to as I was asking you questions, was that - - which truck stop was that?
A. The Chevron truck stop located at Interstate 10 and Airway Boulevard.
Q. All right. And then on the - - or after that occasion, did you set up an opportunity for an appointment for Henry Lucas to come to EL Paso so that he could take you around to whatever crime scenes there were?
A. Yes, we did.
Q. And when did that occur?
A. February 13th, 1984.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. All right. And that was - - was the one in which a van was used?
A. That’s correct.
Q. Did Henry Lucas ever indicate to you in any way about an old woman being murdered during that van ride?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. How did that come about?
A. Well, from our first interview, he talked about two homicides, the one of the body he dropped in Horizon City and one that occurred on Trans Mountain Road in that initial interview. So our purpose was to get out to these two places to go in that area to determine where the homicides had occurred.
We - - Our first - - From the airport when he came in, we went up toward or went out Interstate 10 toward Horizon City. And when we went up to - - Actually we ended up going to Horizon City by the golf course and what have you.
When we came back down - - down Horizon, I believe it’s Horizon Boulevard, right at the freeway just before we turned on the access toad he pointed toward Ysleta and said that he killed a woman in Mexico there and pointed toward the Ysleta area.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Q. Did you go down to that area?
A. No.
Q. When he said Mexico, what did you think?
A. Well, the fact was is that he was being held in Texas and he wasn’t about to go to Mexico and try to determine if there had been any homicides that occurred there. To be honest, I wasn’t interested in solving a homicide that occurred in Mexico, so I just let it go.
Q. Did you ever even travel into the lower valley?
A. No, we did not.
Q. Did you ever feed Henry Lucas any information about the Librada Apodaca case?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Did you ever show him any crime scene photos of any crime scene?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Did anyone ever do that in your presence?
A. No.
MR. MOODY: Pass the witness.
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MERYL WERSINGER, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
EL PASO, TEXAS 79901 (915) 546-2190
Editor's note: this is the official transcript and it runs verbatim, as the archive's rule for court records requires; nothing has been summarised or cut. Sergeant Jimmy Apodaca was both an investigating officer and the husband of the victim, Librada Apodaca, and Lucas later testified that the photograph he identified her from had come out of Apodaca’s own pocket. His account of the investigation is here in his own words. This archive records Henry Lee Lucas with eleven convictions, around three of them regarded as credible, against some six hundred confessions; the questioning in these pages is part of the mechanism by which that gap opened. It belongs to the El Paso County case and the 120th Judicial District, not to the Clay County trial already published as TRANSCRIPTS FROM THE TRIAL OF HENRY LEE LUCAS. Nothing said under oath in a transcript is a finding of fact, and Lucas in particular said a great many things that were not true.