Transcribed by Christi Punteney
Below is the opening of the El Paso County hearing into the confessions of Henry Lee Lucas, transcribed from the official record: the statement of facts and the testimony of Texas Ranger Wes Statton, Detective Curtis John Flynn and Benito Perez Jr. It runs verbatim. Pages 1 to 184.
The State of Texas
Vs.
Henry Lee Lucas
Case No. 43312-120
Heard on
September 8, 1986
(Property of Rod Ponton Attorney at Law Copy 2)
Meryl Wersinger, Official Court Reporter
El Paso, Texas (915) 546-2190
Page 1
For the state: William Moody
First Assistant District Attorney
City - - County Building
El Paso, TX 79901
Richard Jewkes
Assistant District Attorney
City - - County Building
El Paso, TX 79901
Carol Pennock
Assistant District Attorney
City - - County Building
El Paso, TX 79901
For the Defendant:
Rod Ponton
Attorney at Law
Suite 505
Caples Building
El Paso, TX 79901
Doris Sipes
Attorney at Law
1011 North Mesa
El Paso, TX 79901
Meryl Wersinger, Official Court Reporter
El Paso, Texas (915) 546-2190
Page 2
Witnesses: Page
Wes Statton
Examination by Mr. Moody 9
Cross-Examination by Mr. Ponton 13
Lumea Mary Brady
Direct examination by Mr. Moody 52
Cross-Examination by Ms. Sipes 65
Redirect Examination by Mr. Moody 74
Curtis John Flynn
Direct Examination by Mr. Moody 75
Cross-Examination by Mr. Ponton 104
Redirect Examination by Mr. Moody 140
Recross-Examination by Mr. Ponton 143
Redirect Examination by Mr. Moody 150
Benito Perez, JR.
Direct Examination by Mr. Moody 153
Meryl Wersinger, Official Court Reporter
El Paso, TX (915) 546-2190
Page 3
Witnesses: Page
Lumea Mary Brady
Direct examination by Mr. Moody 52
Cross-Examination by Ms. Sipes 65
Redirect Examination by Mr. Moody 74
Curtis John Flynn
Direct Examination by Mr. Moody 75
Cross-Examination by Mr. Ponton 104
Redirect Examination by Mr. Moody 140
Recross-Examination by Mr. Ponton 143
Redirect Examination by Mr. Moody 150
Benito Perez, JR.
Direct Examination by Mr. Moody 153
Wes Statton
Examination by Mr. Moody 9
Cross-Examination by Mr. Ponton 13
Page 4
Meryl Wersinger, Official Court Reporter
El Paso, TX (915) 546-2190
Exhibit Description Marked Identified Offered Rec’d
s-1 Transcript 54 54 64 64
s-2 Videotape 79 79
s-3 Audiotape 141 141
s-4 Audiotape 167 168
s-5 Diagrams 177 177
PAGE 5
Meryl Wersinger, Official Court Reporter
El Paso, TX (915) 546-2190
The State of Texas
Vs.
Henry Le Lucas
Case No. 43314-120
BE IT REMEMBERED that on the 8th day of September, 1986, beginning at 9:17 a.m., came on to be heard the pretrial motions in the above styled and numbered case, before the HONORABLE BRUNSON MOORE, Judge Presiding in and for the 120th Judicial District Court, and that the same was taken by Meryl Wersinger, Certified Shorthand Reporter and Notary Public in and for County Court at Law Number Four, El Paso County, Texas, and that the following proceedings were had as follows, to-wit:
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Meryl Wersinger, Official Court Reporter
El Paso, TX (915) 546-2190
THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, we are going to call the case of the State of Texas versus Henry Lee Lucas, cause number 43314. Mr. Lucas has been charged with the felony offense of capital murder, four counts.
Now, then, the State is represented by Mr. Bill Moody, Mr. Richard Jewkes and Ms. Pennock. The defendants are represented by Ms. Sipes and Mr. Ponton.
Now, are the parties ready to proceed?
Mr. Moody: State of Texas is ready to proceed, Your Honor.
Ms. Sipes: The defense is ready to proceed, Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. At this time we are going to take up the motion filed by the defense in this case to suppress the evidence and this is the motion on the suppression of the confession. Is that correct?
Ms. Sipes: Yes, Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. Is the state ready to proceed with that?
Mr. Moody: Yes, we are, Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. Do we have and witnesses in the courtroom, Mr. Moody, at this time
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Meryl Wersinger, Official Court Reporter
El Paso, Texas (915) 546 - - 2190
THE COURT: that you would like to have sworn so that we may invoke the Rule if necessary?
Mr. Moody: Yes, we have Mr. Wes Statton and Detective Benito Perez present here today.
THE COURT: Would you gentlemen please raise your right hands?
Mr. Moody: And also Detective Curtis Flynn.
THE COURT: Anybody that is going to testify, please raise your right hands.
Thank you.
Do you wish to invoke the Rule, Ms. Sipes?
Ms. Sipes: Yes, we do, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Gentlemen, the Rule has been invoked. This means that those of you who are not testifying must wait outside of the hearing of what is taking place in the courtroom. You are not to discuss this case among yourselves nor are you to discuss it with any other persons other than the attorneys involved. If anybody comes to you and wants to talk to you about this case while this hearing in process, you are to report that person to me immediately.
Who will be your first witness, Mr. Moody?
Mr. Moody: We will call Mr. We Statton.
Did the defense have some issue - -
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Meryl Wersinger, Official Court Reporter
El Paso, Texas (915) 546 - - 2190
THE COURT: Mr. Statton, if you don’t mind, would you please take the stand?
Mr. Moody: May we proceed, Your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes, sir.
Mr. Moody: Did you want us to speak from the podium or the chair?
THE COURT: However you like to. Let’s do this, ladies and gentlemen: Let’s just make it as easy as you want to. You can either use the podium or not use it or however. We will be kind of informal as far as that’s concerned because I don’t want to have a lot of formalities concerning this part of the trial.
Go ahead, sir.
WES STATTON, having been previously duly sworn by the Court to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, was examined and testified as follows:
By Mr. Moody:
Q. Would you state your name sir?
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Meryl Wersinger, Official Court Reporter
El Paso, Texas (915) 546 - - 2190
THE COURT: Mr. Statton, if you don’t mind, would you please take the stand?
Mr. Moody: May we proceed, Your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes, sir.
Mr. Moody: Did you want us to speak from the podium or the chair?
THE COURT: However you like to. Let’s do this, ladies and gentlemen: Let’s just make it as easy as you want to. You can either use the podium or not use it or however. We will be kind of informal as far as that’s concerned because I don’t want to have a lot of formalities concerning this part of the trial.
Go ahead, sir.
WES STATTON, having been previously duly sworn by the Court to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, was examined and testified as follows:
By Mr. Moody:
Q. Would you state your name sir?
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Meryl Wersinger, Official Court Reporter
El Paso, Texas (915) 546 - - 2190
My name is Wes Statton.
Q. The spelling of that last name, would you spell it?
A. S T A T T O N
Q. How are you employed, Mr. Statton?
A. My wife and I own a transportation company here in El Paso.
Q. All right. I’d like to draw your attention back to the 25th day of October, 1984, and were you a member of the El Paso County Grand Jury sitting in and for the 34th Judicial District of Texas?
A. I was.
Q. Did you hold a position on that grand jury?
A. I did. I was foreman of the grand jury.
Q. Now, going back to that date, the 25th of October of ’84, was that one of your regular days to - - Thursday, I believe it was - - to meet on cases?
A. Yes, sir, it was.
Q. Were you instructed after finishing your normal cases to return sometime in the early evening hours?
A. We were instructed to return to the jury room in the early evening hours between 6:30 and 7:00 p.m.
Q. Did you and the grand jury so convene?
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Meryl Wersinger, Official Court Reporter
El Paso, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Yes, sir, we did convene.
Q. At approximately 8:15 that evening did Henry Lee Lucas appear before you?
A. He did, sir.
Q. Do you see that same Henry Lee Lucus present in the courtroom today?
A. He is present in the courtroom.
Q. Would you point him out to the Judge?
Mr. Moody: All right. Would the record reflect this witness has identified the defendant?
THE COURT: It will so reflect.
Q. (By Mr. Moody) All right. Now, prior to 8:15 p.m., did anyone inform you that Henry Lee Lucas was present in El Paso that evening?
A. The grand jury was informed that he was present in town.
Q. Did you-all request to see him?
A. The jury requested to question him concerning the case.
Q. And then when he did appear, did he testify before you?
A. He did testify before us.
Q. When he testified, do you recall his demeanor, how he appeared, how he acted?
A. Mr. Lucas appeared very calm, very cool
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Meryl Wersinger, Official Court Reporter
El Paso, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
during the entire session.
Q. Did he appear to be under the influence of any alcoholic beverages or any drugs?
A. No, sir, he did not.
Q. Did he answer the questions that were propounded to him in a normal manner?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was he threatened while he was in your presence?
A. No, sir.
Q. Was he intimidated or promised anything in exchange for his testimony before the grand jury?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did he appear to be testifying voluntarily?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. After he testified, did the grand jury meet with only its members present and deliberate on the case?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was any deliberation done prior to that deliberation itself when you-all were alone?
A. No, sir.
Q. After your deliberation was an indictment for capital murder returned against Henry Lee Lucas?
A. It was, sir.
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Meryl Wersinger, Official Court Reporter
El Paso, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Q. Did at least nine of you concur on that oath for a true bill?
A. It was a true bill, sir.
Q. Did at least nine of you vote?
A. Yes, sir, nine voting.
Mr. Moody: Pass the witness.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. PONTON:
Q. Is it Mr. Statton?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. My name is Rod Ponton, sir. I’m one of the two lawyers here for Mr. Lucas. My co-counsel here is Doris Sipes.
When was this grand jury impaneled, Mr. Statton, that you were the foreman of, do you recall?
I believe it was in early September.
Q. Was this the grand jury for the 34th Judicial District?
A. Judge Woodard’s court, yes sir.
Q. Was October the 25th of 1984 the first discussion or the first time any evidence or any mention of Henry Lucas was made to the grand jury?
A. I do not recall if it was that day precisely was the only time it was brought up or not. It may
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Meryl Wersinger, Official Court Reporter
El Paso, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
have been brought up in two days preceding that.
Q. Was this session on the 25th? Was that the day of your grand jury’s normal meeting?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. The day of the week, was that the Thursday the grand jury or - -
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you recall whether or not any members of the district attorney’s staff may have appeared before the grand jury to inform them of the investigation into Henry Lee Lucas prior to the 25th of October of ’84?
A. I do not recall, sir.
Q. Would it be your testimony that they did not or is it possible they did?
A. No, sir, I would not say that. I said I do not recall.
Q. Do you recall whether or not either on the 25th of October or any other day any members of the law enforcement either testified before the grand jury or summarized an investigation or a case before your grand jury regarding my client, Henry Lucas?
A. Yes, there was.
Q. Would that have been on the 25th of October or previous?
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Meryl Wersinger, Official Court Reporter
El Paso, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
I do not recall what day it was, sir.
Q. Would it have been one or more than one law enforcement witness who would have done that?
A. It could have been one. It could have been more than one. I don’t recall how many testified.
Q. Do you not have a clerk in the grand jury who keeps a record of people who appear?
A. Yes, sir. I’m sure that’s a matter of record.
Q. Was the grand jury informed Henry Lucas was in town by being told that by members of the district attorney’s office?
A. We requested to talk to him.
Q. But my question, sir, is how did the grand jury know that Henry Lucas was in town?
A. We were informed by the district attorney’s office.
Q. Did the district attorney tell you whether or not Henry Lucas wanted to talk to the grand jury?
A. He did not say it in those words. We said that we wanted to talk to Mr. Lucas.
Q. Sir, in response to your request that Mr. Lucas appear, did any members of the district attorney’s office tell you or other members of the grand jury whether Mr. Lucas would on would not
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Meryl Wersinger, Official Court Reporter
El Paso, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
appear?
They advised us later in the day that he would appear that evening.
Q. Do you recall which member of the district attorney’s office you were talking with regarding the appearance of Mr. Lucas?
A. I believe it was Mr. Moody.
Q. Did Mr. Moody tell you whether or not he had had any difficulty in getting Mr. Lucas to come down and talk to the grand jury?
A. No, sir, he said Mr. Lucas would volunteer to talk to the grand jury.
Q. Did he say he had spoken to Mr. Lucas?
A. I do not remember those exact words.
Q. Was it your understanding that Mr. Moody had had a discussion with Mr. Lucas and it was after that discussion?
A. Later in the day Mr. Moody did inform the grand jury that Mr. Lucas would talk to the grand jury that evening.
Q. Did - - Now, it was your testimony earlier that the grand jury did not threaten Mr. Lucas or promise him anything in return for his testimony towards the grand jury?
A. That’s correct, Sir.
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Meryl Wersinger, Official Court Reporter
El Paso, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Q. Did you have any personal knowledge whether there were any promises made to Mr. Lucas by Mr. Moody or any other member of the district attorney’s office in return for Mr. Lucas’s testifying before the grand jury?
A. There was none made in our presence.
Q. But do you know whether there were any made not in your presence?
A. There was none made in our presence.
Q. When the grand jury - - And I want to caution you, sir. I don’t want to ask you any questions about the grand jury deliberations or whatever you and the other members of the grand jury discussed when witnesses were not there, nor do I want to ask you about precisely what witnesses said, but when Mr. Moody are any other members of the district attorney’s office were presenting the case to the grand jury, was any mention made by them that Mr. Lucas had confessed to many other murders?
A. No, sir.
Q. Was there any discussion by members of the grand jury that Mr. Lucas had been in the news media as a mass-murderer?
A. No, sir.
Q. Had you heard of Mr. Lucas prior to his
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Meryl Wersinger, Official Court Reporter
El Paso, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
appearance before the grand jury?
No, sir.
Q. Do you know whether any other members of the grand jury have - -
Mr. Moody: Your Honor, I object to that. It calls for speculation on the part of this witness.
THE COURT: I’ll overrule, Go ahead.
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) If you know from personal knowledge of your discussions with other members, not discussions during deliberations, I caution you, whether or not any other members of the grand jury had knowledge that Mr. Lucas had been prominently displayed in the news media as a mass-murderer?
A. I would have no personal knowledge of grand jury members as an individual, but there was no discussion during grand jury deliberations - - grand jury discussions.
Q. Were any videotapes played to the members of the grand jury?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was one of those videotapes a videotape of a confession purportedly made by Mr. Lucas in El Paso?
A. I believe so.
Q. Were any other videotapes played to the grand jury besides that confession?
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Meryl Wersinger, Official Court Reporter
El Paso, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
I would have to say I don’t remember any others, but I won’t say they weren’t played.
Q. Were any audiotapes played for the grand jury?
A. Not that I recall.
Q. Were any tapes played for the grand jury of any return to the crime scene reenactment, return to the crime scene?
A. No.
Q. Where any videotapes played to the grand jury of any interviews with any witnesses other than Mr. Lucas?
A. I don’t recall any.
Q. Do you recall the members of the grand jury being told that Mr. Lucas had confessed to this crime that your grand jury indicted him for on three different days, two, three different occasions?
A. No, sir.
Q. Do you recall whether the grand jury was told he had confessed to this crime on more than one occasion?
A. No, sir.
Q. Do you recall seeing any written confession signed by Mr. Lucas in this case?
A. I don’t recall it, Counselor, but I won’t
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El Paso, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
say we didn’t.
Q. The evening of the 25th of October, did any members of law enforcement testify before the grand jury?
A. I do not recall any.
Q. The evening of the 25th of October, did Mr. Moody or other members of the district attorney’s office make any presentation to the grand jury of any type prior to Mr. Lucas testifying?
A. No.
Q. Did Mr. Moody or any other member of the district attorney’s office give the grand jury any type of synopsis of what they expected Mr. Lucas to say?
A. No.
Q. Did anybody testify or give any kind of synopsis of evidence after Mr. Lucas testified?
A. We - - The grand jury deliberated after hearing Mr. Lucas’ testimony for some time.
Q. Do you recall whether or not the grand jury requested to hear evidence from any other personor persons after Mr. Lucas testified?
A. We did not talk to anyone else individually.
Q. Did you request to see any members of a group after Mr. Lucas had testified?
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El Paso, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
I do not believe so.
Q. Do you recall who was present in the grand jury room when Mr. Lucas testified?
A. Mr. Moody, Mr. Simmons, a couple members of their staff, I believe, several Texas Rangers, several deputies of the El Paso County Sheriff’s Department.
Q. When you say “several Texas Rangers,” could you give me an estimate of the number?
A. I recall either two or three.
Q. When you say several members of the El Paso Police Department, can you estimate that number?
A. I would guess there were two to four deputies in the room totally.
Q. Two to four sheriff deputies?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you recall if there were any members of the El Paso Police Department in the room, also?
A. There were some plainclothes people there. They did not identify themselves to the grand jury, so I would have no way of knowing who they were.
Q. Can you give me any estimate of the total number of known grand jury members who were present in the grand jury room when Mr. Lucas testified?
A. In the grand jury room?
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Meryl Wersinger, Official Court Reporter
El Paso, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
Q. Yes, sir.
A. I have no knowledge of anyone else.
Q. But my question to you, Mr. Statton, is can you estimate the total number of nongrand jury members in the grand jury room when Mr. Lucas testified?
A. Other than - -
Q. I’m asking you to give me an estimate of the total number of the persons you just testified about. I’m not trying to confuse you, sir.
A. Counting the deputies and Mr. Simmon’s staff, I would say there may have been nine to ten to eleven people.
Q. All right. Who asked the questions of Mr. Lucas?
A. Mr. Moody.
Q. Did Mr. Moody make any comments during that questioning on the evidence that had been uncovered in this investigation in the crime the grand jury was inquiring into?
A. There was no discussion of evidence at that time that I recall.
Q. After Mr. Lucas testified, did the grand jury have any discussions with Mr. Moody or any of those other members who were present in there before
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Meryl Wersinger, Official Court Reporter
El Paso, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
the grand jury began deliberating?
Not before the grand jury began deliberating, no, sir.
Q. When Mr. Lucas left, did everybody else leave?
A. Yes, sir. And the grand jury retired to the grand jury room.
Q. Were any - - Do you recall if a police officer named Jimmy Apodaca was present?
A. I did not talk to the gentleman that evening.
Q. Do you remember whether or not he was there?
A. I do not know. I would not know the man.
Q. Do you know if any other family members of the Apodaca family were present that evening?
A. I do not know, sir.
Q. Did they ever appear before your grand jury?
A. Not that I recall.
Q. Do you recall if Jimmy Apodaca ever appeared before your grand jury?
A. Counselor, I do not recall.
Q. Can you recall at all, sir, how many times the grand jury met to inquire into Henry Lucas?
A. We had been meeting that week and we had discussed Mr. Lucas for a couple of days.
Q. Do you recall what day of that week your
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Meryl Wersinger, Official Court Reporter
El Paso, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
grand jury first met?
No, sir, I don’t because we were meeting on several other subjects.
Q. Do you recall whether or not your grand jury ever met to inquire into offenses committed by Mr. Lucas but not this offense he was indicted for?
A. You are referring whether we inquired into other offenses alleged by - - against Mr. Lucas?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. I do not recall that.
Q. Do you recall any evidence before the grand jury or any proffer of testimony before the grand jury that Mr. Lucas may have confessed to other crimes in El Paso County in which bodies were not found?
A. We did not involve ourselves regarding that. We were only involved with the Apodaca case concerning Mr. Lucas.
Q. Was any of that information provided you or your grand jury as a basis for the further inquiry into the Apodaca murder?
A. Rephrase your question, please.
Q. Well, was the grand jury aware that Mr. Lucas had been in El Paso twice before in the company of law enforcement officials twice before the day
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El Paso, TEXAS (915) 546-2190
before he appeared before you?
We did not concern ourselves with that.
Q. That’s not my question, however, sir. Was the grand jury aware that Henry Lee Lucas had been in El Paso County twice before October 25, 1984, in the company of Texas Rangers and law enforcement agents to go to purported crime scenes in El Paso?
A. We did not have any official knowledge concerning grand jury involving that.
Q. DID you have any unofficial or any knowledge of any type that MR. Henry Lucas had been in El Paso County, Texas, on, I believe the date is February 13th, 1984, and also on September 20th, 1984, and at each of those times had discussions with law enforcement officials about his involvement in cases other than Librada Apodaca?
A. We were not informed of any of those discussions.
Q. When you say you were not informed, sir, were you - - did you or any other members of the grand jury have any type of knowledge of it rather than a formal presentation of the case?
MR MOODY: Your Honor, we are going to object to this line of questioning proceeding at this point. We are here on voluntariness of the statement
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he gave on that date, not on a motion hearing on the issue of what the grand jury knew or didn’t know on those dates. It’s not the purpose of this hearing. As I understood it, it was to discuss the voluntariness of the confession Jackson B. Sheering. And I think the defense has been granted some leniency in going into this, but I think they are going far afield and I would ask the Court to cut off this line of questioning.
MR. PONTON: Your Honor, briefly in response to Mr. Moody, I don’t believe this grand jury met in a vacuum. I believe they should be entitled to go into the background the grand jury had into Mr. Henry Lucas. I believe also that the matters I’m inquiring into would go to the credibility of Mr. Lucas before the grand jury and the basis the grand jury may have had in addition to his testimony for returning a capital murder indictment against him.
I’m not going to inquire into the grand jury’s deliberations nor the - - actually what any witnesses said, but I believe I should be able to inquire into whether or not they were aware of these other things that led up to this indictment and this investigation hearing.
THE COURT: I’m going to let you go ahead,
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Mr. Ponton.
Mr. Ponton: I’ll try to keep it brief, Your Honor.
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) Mr. Statton, once again, was the grand jury aware from any source the Mr. Lucas had previously been in El Paso and had previously been investigated for involvement in murders other than Librada Apodaca’s?
A. Again, Counselor, there were not official discussion durng deliberations by the grand jury concerning any of the cases. If any of the members of the grand jury were informed, it was through media or other types of sources, but there was no discussion of any nature of any of it.
Q. Were you aware personally?
A. No, sir.
Q. Was the grand jury informally advised that Henry Lucas had been in El Paso in investigation of other purported El Paso murders?
A. We were not informally advised by any member of the district attorney’s staff, if that is what you are getting at.
Q. Or any member of law enforcement?
A. No, sir.
Q. Had any other - - How long was your grand
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jury in session, sir?
Our total grand jury session was approximately six months.
Q. How many other defendants appeared before your grand jury to confess during that six-month period?
A. Concerning what case, sir?
Q. Any case.
A. I would have no way of recalling how many people appeared before the grand jury because we looked at a lot of cases over that period.
Q. Let’s concern ourselves, then, with murder cases and how many persons that you were inquiring into whether or not there was probable cause to indict them for murder.
How many of those persons appeared before the grand jury and confessed during the six-month term?
In trying to understand your question, you are asking me how many people appeared before us confessing to a capital murder case during that time period?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. There was only one.
Q. Was that Mr. Lucas?
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Yes, sir.
Q. Now, let me ask you how many persons appeared before the grand jury and confessed to a murder case, any type of murder, during that same period? A. I believe this is the only actual confession that we had.
Q. This would be the only actual confession to murder or to any crime?
A. I did not say to any other crime.
Q. That’s why I’m asking you to clarify.
A. All right, sir. To a murder case? Q. Have you had any discussions with the district attorney’s office since - - concerning Henry Lucas since the end of the grand jury term?
A. Only one.
Q. When was that, sir?
A. Approximately - - I don’t have the exact date, but within the last 30 days I was called by a private detective supposedly representing your office questioning me what the grand jury deliberated about and why I was being subpoenaed to be present in the Lucas case.
Q. Did you ever sit down with any members of the district attorney’s office since that time?
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Only this morning when I reported to the district attorney’s office.
Q. What time was that this morning, sir?
A. Approximately ten minutes of 9:00.
Q. Who did you visit with this morning at the district attorney’s office?
A. All I met with was Mr. Moody.
Q. Did Mr. Moody instruct you to testify that you did not recall things of you don’t have and specific recollection of it?
A. Mr. Moody did not instruct me to say anything or not to recall anything. I was merely waiting in Mr. Moody’s office until we came directly to this courtroom.
Q. Prior to the time that Mr. Lucas appeared before your grand jury, sir, had your grand jury see the videotaped confession by Mr. Lucas wherein he confessed to killing Librada Apodaca?
A. We saw the videotape prior to hearing Mr. Lucas’ testimony.
Q. Do you recall if it was the same day you saw Mr. Lucas live or a previous day?
A. I believe it was the same date.
Q. Had you and other members of the grand jury also heard a case synopsis from Mr. Moody or
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From other members of law enforcement regarding the Librada Apodaca murder prior to Mr. Lucas testifying?
We had been discussing the Apodaca murder throughout the day.
Q. Okay. Was there any doubt in your mind that there was probable cause to indict Mr. Lucas for the murder of Librada Apodaca after you viewed that videotaped confession?
A. After seeing the videotape and after hearing Mr. Lucas’ testimony, it was our opinion that there was probable cause for indictment.
Q. Yes, sir, but that’s not my question. My question to you, sir, after hearing the case synopsis from Mr. Moody and anyone else who appeared before the grand jury and after viewing the videotaped confession by Mr. Lucas but before Mr. Lucas testified live, was there any doubt in your mind that there was probable cause to indict Henry Lee Lucas for the offense of capital murder?
A. Based on the evidence we reviewed as a grand jury during the analysis of the case and the presentation, we had no doubt that there was probable cause for the indictment.
Q. Prior to Mr. Lucas testifying?
A. After Mr. Lucas’ testimony.
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Q. But you are not answering my question, sir. My question to you sir is: Was it your opinion that there was probable cause to indict Mr. Lucas?
MR. MOODY: Your Honor, we object to this question. You know, the witness has already answered the question. I mean, it’s like trying to ask a juror in the middle of a trial, “Well, when did you believe the defendant was guilty?” I mean, the grand jury gives the defendant the benefit of the doubt or anybody else who hears all the evidence and then they make up their mind.
Now, they knew Mr. Lucas was going to come in and talk to them so they were going to give him an opportunity. You know, they don’t make up their mind in advance, you know, before they hear from the defendant.
THE COURT: I’m going to let him answer the question.
Rephrase your question, Mr. Ponton.
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) Mr. Statton, once again I’m referring to the period of time after the grand jury heard the videotaped confession, heard and saw the videotaped confession.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And prior to Mr. Lucas testifying live, was
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it your opinion at that time that there was probable cause to indict Mr. Lucas for the offense of capital murder based upon the videotaped confession and all the other evidence that the grand jury may have heard?
It was my personal opinion since there was no formal discussion among the grand jury members that there would be probable cause and we should go on and hear his testimony that night.
Q. So it is your testimony that the videotaped confession alone was not sufficient to support an indictment for capital murder?
A. No, sir. I didn’t say that. You asked me if I had thought there was probable cause and I said leading up to that point, based on what had been presented to us in the grand jury room and plus what we saw on the videotape that there would be probable cause for an indictment, so we should therefore go on and hear his testimony that night, which we did.
Q. Had it been proffered to the members of the grand jury that Mr. Lucas would appear before the grand jury and deny involvement in the case or explain the confession or otherwise try to exculpate himself?
A. No, sir, it was not presented in that manner at all. Late in the day on - - after deliberations
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And hearing this case along with others, we were advised that Mr. Lucas was in El Paso and might be available, and we asked to see him. And in about an hour or so later we were informed that he would meet with the grand jury.
Q. Had the grand jury ever requested to see any other defendant in any other murder case during that six-month term?
A. Without going into some deliberations of other cases, which I think some of them are still pending, I would only answer that we have talked to a number of witnesses over a six-month period regarding several other cases, some of which I don’t believe are still unsolved, let me say.
Q. That’s right. But let’s clarify, sir. I’m not asking about witnesses, I’m asking about defendants.
And so my question to you: Did the members of your grand jury ever request that any other defendant in any other murder case ever appear before your grand jury to testify?
We did hear some defendants against another case?
Q. Was it a murder case?
A. I believe it was a murder case.
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Q. And did your grand jury request that those defendants appear?
A. The grand jury requested to talk to those people, yes.
Q. In that other case?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did their attorneys appear with them?
A. I do not recall if they had counsel present or not. They were certainly read their rights.
Q. Would that instance and instance of Mr. Lucas be the only two that you are aware of wherein defendants were requested in a murder case to appear before your grand jury?
A. The only ones I recall at this time.
Q. Was it a no bill or a true bill returned in that other case, sir?
Q. I believe that other case is still pending, Counselor.
Q. So no indictment was returned against the persons who testified before the grand jury?
A. No, sir.
Q. Why did the grand jury want to talk to Henry Lucas, sir?
A. You want to rephrase that?
Q. Why did the members of the grand jury, the
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September term grand jury want to talk to Mr. Henry Lucas after viewing his videotape?
MR. JEWKES: I’m going to object. That’s probably calling for speculation as to what the other - -
THE COURT: I’ll sustain the objection.
Q. (BY MR. POTON) Why did you feel it necessary as foreman of the grand jury, sir, to request that Henry Lucas appear before the grand jury?
A. I - - On a personal basis, you are asking?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. I felt that in view of the fact that he was in town, if he would appear before the grand jury we would like to hear it in person to see if there was anything coming out at the time that we had not already heard.
Q. And prior to his appearing, you had been told, had you not, that he would appear to confess to a crime rather than appear to explain away a crime or exculpate himself?
A. I don’t believe it was worded that way, Counselor. No, sir.
Q. Can you tell me how it was worded?
A. I don’t recall exactly the wording, but when the grand jury asked the district attorney’s office on the afternoon to ask Mr. Lucas if he would appear
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before the grand jury, and they came back later in the day and said that he would appear. It was handled in that manner. I don’t think there was any discussions as to what he would say or anything like that. In fact, I’m sure of it.
Q. Sir, you previously testified that the grand jury had met for, I believe you said, a couple of days earlier that week of the 25th regarding Henry Lucas. Is that correct?
A. We met - - We were working on another case paralleling this case which caused us to be extended by the judge in charge of the grand jury at that time. We did not just hear one individual case, counselor, each day. We would hear sometimes as many as 25 cases.
Q. I understand that.
A. Okay. I do not recall exactly how many days prior to this case was discussed, okay, but all day that day on Thursday it was discussed. We would leave a case, come back to a case, sometimes depending on what was being presented to us and who we were talking to. We talked to an awful lot of people in six months’ time.
Q. Had the grand jury discussed the possibility of indicting Lacas for that crime prior to that week?
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No, sir.
Q. Had the grand jury heard any evidence about that, this Librada Apodaca murder either regarding Henry Lucas, regarding any other suspect prior to that week?
A. The Apodaca murder had been presented to the grand jury, okay? The murder had been reviewed extensively.
Q. Can you tell me approximately when that was?
A. No, sir, I can’t remember. I’m sure those dockets are available to you.
Q. Would that be early or late in the term?
A. No, it was late in the term. When I say late in the term, it was late in October. Let me - - Keep in mind this was a six-month term.
Q. That’s right. So that the case presentation on Librada Apodaca case would have been the same month as Mr. Lucas?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. When the Apodaca case was presented to the grand jury, was any evidence presented to the grand jury that persons other than Henry Lucas had confessed to murdering Librada Apodaca?
A. No, we had no knowledge of anyone else confessing to the murder.
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Q. When the case regarding the murder of Librada Apodaca was presented to your grand jury, was there any evidence that the semen found on the panties of the victim did not match the blood and secretor type of Henry Lucas?
A. I do not recall that particular item being discussed. We did discuss it was a rape/murder case, okay, but I’d have to leave it at that point.
Q. You don’t recall any discussion of the laboratory report from the Department of Public Safety comparing Mr. Lucas’ semen and blood type to the blood type of the semen found on the victim’s panties?
A. Counselor, I do not recall those. There were reports presented, okay, to the grand jury but exactly what those reports said, I do not recall. Before answering them, I would want to see the reports.
Q. Would you recall that if the report had said that Mr. Lucas’ blood and secretor type is different than that found on the victim?
A. I do not recall that.
Q. My question to you is: Do you think you would have recalled it if that had been in the report that the reports showed that Mr. Lucas is potentially
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excluded from the class of persons who would have raped the person?
Counselor, if there had been something there, I believe, that excluded Mr. Lucas, we certainly would not have indicted him at that time on probable cause. There again, let me repeat there were a number or reports, okay? I do not recall what each one of those reports said and before I would want to testify as to what they said, I would ask to see those reports again and review them.
Q. Do you recall hearing and evidence regarding Mr. Lucas having been present in Montague County, Texas, on the date that this murder occurred?
A. No, sir.
Q. Do you recall hearing any evidence from a Texas Ranger named Phil Ryan or any synopsis of summary of what his testimony might be if he would - - To refresh your memory, he is a Texas Ranger stationed in Decatur north of Montague County in an adjacent county to Montague County, Texas?
A. Yes, we did hear some witnesses. I do not recall their names, but I do not recall any testimony as to Mr. Lucas present in another county in Texas on or about that date.
Q. Do you recall being shown any report
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Prepared by this Texas Ranger that stated that Henry Lucas left Montague County on June 4th, 1983?
No, sir. Again, I don’t recall that.
Q. Do you recall hearing any evidence or testimony or summary of testimony from what Sheriff W.P. Conway of Montague County might have stated regarding Henry Lucas’ presence in Montague County in May of 1983?
A. No, sir, I don’t recall anything of that nature.
Q. Was the grand jury informed that Henry Lucas in May of 1983 was a suspect in the murder of a girl named Frieda Powell and an elderly woman named Kate Rich in Montague County?
A. The grand jury was informed that Mr. Lucas was presently under investigation in several other cities throughout the United States concerning murders then pending before juries or before court.
Q. Okay.
A. There was no - - Counselor, what I’m getting at, I don’t recall any direct referral to the people whom you are referring to.
Q. All right. These people I’m referring to, sir - - Was the grand jury informed that Sheriff W.F. Conway and Texas Ranger Phil Ryan and Henry Lucas
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Under informal surveillance in May of 1983 in Montague County because he was their prime suspect in two murder investigations they were engaged in Montague County?
I don’t recall that.
Q. Was the grand jury told that each of these persons could confirm Mr. Lucas’ presence in Montague County on many days in May of 1983?
A. No, sir.
Q. Was the grand jury informed that Henry Lucas - - that there was documentary evidence such as a driver’s license application and getting an inspection for a car that placed him in Montague County in May of 1983.
A. No, sir.
Q. Was the grand jury informed that the persons with whom Henry Lucas lived with in Montague County had told the Texas Ranger and the sheriff up there that they would tell them any time Henry Lucas left Montague County and that they did not tell Texas Ranger or the sheriff that Henry Lucas left Montague until June 4th, 1983?
A. I do not recall anything of that nature.
Q. Do you recall your grand jury being told that there was a gardener who had worked for the
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Victim the day before she was killed and who lived in the area of Juarez across the river from Ysleta and who confessed to killing her?
No, sir, we were not informed.
Q. Was the grand jury informed that Henry Lucas had confessed to killing a woman named Ruth Ann Manguno in Jefferson Parish, Louisiana, on May 26th, of 1983 at a point in time approximately 20to 24 hours prior to the murder of Librada Apodaca?
A. No, sir, I don’t recall that. I previously stated that we were informed that there were a number of cases pending in a number of cities in other states also but nothing specific as to the cities, et cetera.
Q. Was the grand jury informed that Mr. Lucas had been indicted in any other cities or states for murder?
A. Yes.
Q. Were they told any particular number?
A. No, sir.
Q. Would you have felt it important testimony to the grand jury that Mr. Lucus had confessed to killing another woman east of New Orleans, Louisiana, less than 24 hours before Librada Apodaca was killed knowing that Mr. Lucas could not fly? Would that
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have been - -
That was not told to us, Counselor, that I recall. I do not recall anything concerning Mr. Lucas not flying.
Q. Did Bill Moody tell the grand jury that he had been to Louisiana to investigate that case?
A. I do not recall Mr. Moody even discussing that case with us.
Q. Did Mr. Moody discuss with the grand jury the fact that he and Steve Simmons and another member of the district attorney’s staff had taken a two-week trip around Texas to look into other Lucas murders?
A. No, sir, he did not.
Q. Did Mr. Moody or any member of the district attorney’s staff tell the grand jury whether or not it was physically possible for Mr. Lucas to have killed someone east of New Orleans less than a day before Librada Apodaca’s murder and still have been present in El Paso the night she was murdered?
A. I don’t recall any discussion of that nature.
MR. MOODY: Your Honor, they are just asking questions here. I mean, we hadn’t even made that trip yet. How could I talk to them about things I hadn’t even done yet?
THE COURT: Mr. Moody - -
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MR. MOODY: I mean, it’s got to end sometime here.
THE COURT: I understand that and I think that’s a proper objection. If that is the truth, I don’t know when you made the trip or when you didn’t, but, Mr. Ponton, let’s don’t put the cart before the horse, you know. Let’s - -
MR. PONTON: I’ll go on, Your Honor.
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) Mr. Statton, do you recall being told by anyone that Mr. Lucas had been investigated for any other murder in El Paso County other than Librada Apodaca’s?
A. I do not recall that, no, sir.
Q. Do you recall if there were any discussions not during deliberations of that among the members of the grand jury?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did Mr. Lucas tell you that when he appeared before the grand jury?
A. Pardon? Would you repeat that?
Q. Did Mr. Lucas tell members of the grand jury he had been in El Paso previously?
A. I would want to see the deposition of that night. I don’t recall that exact statement.
Q. Was the grand jury informed of the exact way
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in which Mr. Lucas got to El Paso?
No, sir.
Q. Was there not any discussion that Mr. Lucas had been driving around El Paso County the day before he appeared before the grand jury trying to lead officers to sites where other bodies might be?
A. I do not believe that was part of any of the grand jury deliberation or information.
Q. Did the members of the 34th Judicial District Attorney’s office tell the members of your grand jury that he had been - - that Mr. Lucas had confessed to five other murders in El Paso County and had tried to take officers of the El Paso County and had tried to take officers of El Paso Police Department and the Texas Rangers and the El Paso sheriff’s office to the places where purportedly these five other bodies were and after an intensive investigation none of those bodies had been recovered and Mr. Lucas was no longer considered a suspect in the five other cases he confessed to here in El Paso County?
A. Counselor, there was discussion of some previous cases, unsolved, pinpoint locations of bodies, et cetera, but there was no eminent discussion that Mr. Lucas led them around anywhere, or anything, with the grand jury. All we were aware
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Of was there were other cases that had not been solved and that was about the extent of it. There was no eminent discussion.
Q. I guess my question to you, Mr. Statton, is were the members of the grand jury informed that Mr. Lucas had confessed to other murders in El Paso County that could not be confirmed despite an intensive investigation?
A. I don’t recall a statement being made that Mr. Lucas had confessed to other murders in El Paso County, no.
Q. Or that he had confessed to murders in El Paso County that could not be confirmed?
A. No, sir. I don’t remember any wording of that nature.
Q. Do you recall any statements to the grand jury that Mr. Lucas had confessed not only here in El Paso County but other places to murders which had not even occurred, fictitious murders?
A. No. I would have to go back to my previous statement that we were aware that there were other cities and other states. As to what his confessions were and the eminent details of those cases, Counselor, we did not have those.
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Q. Where the members of the grand jury informed that in June of 1983 Henry Lucas confessed to 77 murders which never took place?
A. I don’t recall that, no.
Q. Was the grand jury given any evidence that Henry Lucas had committed the murder of Librada Apodaca other than his confession?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Without going into the specific testimony, can you tell me what that was?
A. I don’t think I’m allowed to go into the specific testimony except there was hard items of evidence presented to the grand jury both at the scene and at some other locations in El Paso concerning the murder case of Henry Lee Lucas and Librada Apodaca.
Q. What were those physical items, sir?
A. A crockpot for being one, I believe a vacuum cleaner or some other household items which were taken from the Apodaca home.
Q. Was the - - Were the persons that ultimately ended up with those items, did those persons testify before the grand jury?
A. No, sir, we had depositions from them.
Q. Was it the understanding of the members of
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The grand jury that those items did not come from the Apodaca residence?
Yes, sir.
Q. What were the items from the house that the grand jury - - the physical items from the house?
A. I don’t recall all the physical items. A crockpot, a vacuum cleaner, some other personal effects, I believe, were involved.
Q. Were the things from the crime scene itself viewed by the grand jury?
A. Yes. We did not view the items because they had disappeared from the house and were later found.
Q. And that’s - - You are referring to the crockpot and vacuum cleaner?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Were there any other items from the crime scene that were viewed or discussed by the grand jury besides the crockpot and the vacuum?
A. The murder weapon was discussed extensively, items of that nature.
Q. Were any other items discussed?
A. Counselor, I recall other items, but I could not be absolutely specific as to what they were without rereading it.
Q. Were these items that were supposedly taken
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from the house by Henry Lucas or were these items left at the house that tied Lucas to the crime?
I would not want to answer that question specifically as you phrased it. To the best of my knowledge, these items came from the crime scene, were part of the investigation going on by the police officers and tied to the crime by Mr. Lucas.
Q. How many depositions did the grand jury consider in returning an indictment against Mr. Lucas?
A. I don’t recall how many dispositions, but there were a lot of reports, some depositions, et cetera.
Q. Do you recall approximately?
A. I have no idea how many, approximately. There were a considerable number of reports in detail concerning the whole case.
Q. Did the grand jury request that any of the writers of those reports appear before the grand jury to explain them?
A. No, sir, the reports were authenticated in such a manner that they didn’t feel it was necessary at the time.
Q. During that term of the grand jury, were there any other weeks where the grand jury met for three days on one case?
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There was a case pending, without getting any more specific, that there were a lot more than three days of it being discussed. It was being discussed for weeks.
Q. Did it involve Mr. Lucas?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did your grand jury ever consider any case against Mr. Lucas and no bill him?
A. No, sir.
Q. This was the only - - This murder of Librada Apodaca was the only case regarding Lucas that was given to the grand jury?
A. Yes, sir.
MR. PONTON: We have no further questions, Your Honor.
MR. MOODY: No further questions.
THE COURT: May this gentleman be excused?
MR. PONTON: Yes he may, Your Honor, subject to recall, however.
THE COURT: Well, Mr. Statton, you go on about your business. Leave a phone number at work or wherever so we can contact you if we need you. Thank you, sir.
We are going to take a brief recess.
(A recess was taken.)
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MR. MOODY: The state would next call Detective Curtis Flynn.
THE COURT: We may not get through with him before lunch. Ms. Brady, you may go on about your business.
MS. Brady: Thank you.
THE COURT: Detective, please have a seat in the witness chair, sir.
Let the record reflect that this gentleman has previously been sworn. Is that correct, sir?
MR. Flynn: Yes, sir, that is.
THE COURT: Thank you.
CURTIS JOHN FLYNN,
Having been previously duly sworn by the Court to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, was examined and testified as follows:
BY MR. MOODY:
Q. Would you state your name, sir?
A. I’m Curtis John Flynn.
Q. All right. How are you employed, sir?
A. I’m employed as a detective with the crimes against persons division of the El Paso Police Department.
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Q. How long have you worked with the El Paso Police Department?
A. I have been with the El Paso Police Department about - - going on 12 years now.
Q. Going back to the 20th day of September, 1984, do you recall if you were a member of the homicide division with the El Paso Police Department at that time?
A. Yes, sir, I was.
Q. In particular, late afternoon hours of September 20th, 1984, were you involved in taking a videotaped confession of Henry Lee Lucas?
A. Yes, sir, I was.
Q. Do you see that same person that the videotaped confession was taken of present here in the courtroom today?
A. Yes, sir, I do.
Q. Would you point him out to the Judge and describe where he is seated, what he is wearing?
A. Yeah. Mr. Lucas is seated over here at the defense table. It looks like he has a dark blue jacket on, a red polka dot tie, a white shirt.
MR. MOODY: Let the record reflect this witness has also identified the defendant.
THE COURT: It will so reflect.
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Q. (BY MR. MOODY) Would you briefly describe the room in which the videotaped confession was taken?
A. Yes, sir. This is a room on the third floor of the city-county building. It’s adjacent to the crimes against person office and it is part of the crimes against person offices. It’s a room that is carpeted, it’s well lighted and it’s approximately 20 feet by 20 feet square. It has a one-way mirror on one wall, one doorway in and out. And the videotape equipment that we have is permanently installed in that room with the camera being in the room with the suspect and the videotape recording equipment, the monitoring equipment being in an adjacent room right next to it.
Q. Which room were you in for this videotaping session?
A. I was pretty much in and out of both rooms, but during the actual taping of the confession, I was in the adjacent room next to the room where Mr. Lucas was seated.
Q. Were you the person that was operating the videotape machinery?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. What training had you had on operating the videotape machine player that was there in the CAP
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office?
I had been trained by supervisors of our alpha unit which deal with this type of recording systems, plus I had also gone through my own individual training with the manuals and the instruction booklets that accompany each of the instruments that we use.
Q. Are these - - Is this particular machine very difficult to operate?
A. No, it’s not. It’s just like any basic home videotaping unit that many people have.
Q. And you were - - You did know how to operate the machinery at the time?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Was the videotape machine operating properly on that late afternoon in question?
A. Yes, sir, it was.
Q. Was it capable of talking down the videotaped type confession?
A. Yes, sir, it was.
Q. It was in proper functioning order?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you go ahead and take the videotaped confession?
A. Yes, sir. Subsequently that afternoon I did
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Tape the videotape confession or I operated the machines that recorded the session in its entirety.
(State’s exhibit marked, s-2.)
Q. (BY MR. MOODY) All right. I’ll show you what has been marked for identification purposes as State’s Exhibit Number 2 for the purposes of this hearing and ask you if it is - - if that, in effect, is the original videotaped confession taken from the defendant that afternoon of September 20th, 1984?
A. Yes, sir, it is.
Q. How can you identify it?
A. I have marked the tape itself in several different locations, one being the label on the back with my initials and the date, and also I marked on the actual tape itself, under the cover my initials and the date.
Q. Have you since reviewed this videotape to see if it is a true and authentic recording of the events that transpired on the 20th day of September 1984.
A. Yes, I have.
Q. To make sure that the tape was not altered, did you do any particular - - take any particular procedures so it could not be altered?
A. Yes. The tape itself - - Actually several
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Things were done. The tape itself has a tab here on the back that can be broken out which would keep the the tape from being erased, accidentally erased or changed in any fashion. The only thing that you can do with this tape now is to view it.
Also the taping system that we used there uses a time and date generator which superimposes on the videotape the date and the time in hours, minutes and seconds through the entirety of the taping session so that you can see immediately if there were any changes or deletions in the tape.
Q. All right. Was the - - And have you checked the actual videotape since, like I said, to make sure there have been no additions or deletions in regards to this tape?
A. I checked it immediately after the taping session to make sure that everything had taped correctly and there were no problems with it. At that point everything was - - appeared to be correct and I have checked it one more time since.
Q. And there was not any additions or deletions at that time?
A. No, sir, it was in the same order it was when I too the tape on the 20th.
Q. Can we play it again no so - - And again
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watch the tape closely to make sure there are no additions or deletions since its original taking?
Yes
THE COURT: Mr. Moody, just - - there is a question Ms. Sipes was made to try a lawsuit this weekend. As a matter of fact, I understand it went to last night. They have a question of that jury and maybe we ought to get that over with. How long will this take?
MR. MOODY: Oh, this videotape is approximately about 15 minutes, something like that, 10 minutes. It’s not a particularly lengthy tape. It’s about 15 minutes.
THE COURT: Ms. Sipes, you and Mr. Moody approach the bench. I need to ask you a question. (An off-the-record discussion was held.)
THE COURT: We will go right on then. Officer, if you would like that microphone comes out and you can step around in front and hold that mike in your hand if you would like to.
(At this time, State’s Exhibit Number 2 was played with the following transcription:)
Mr. Perez: “The time is now 5:36 p.m. The date is September the 20th, 1984. I am a detective the El Paso Police Department. I’m here to take
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The statement from Mr. Henry Lee Lucas concerning a case, a murder/burglary that occurred in May of 1983.
“The statement is being tape recorded on a Panasonic machine, model number M, as in Mary, V as in Victor, 8200, serial number F, as in Frank, 2-K, as in King, 0023.
“At this time, I’d like for all persons in the room to identify their voices by stating their name and position. I’ll begin by identifying myself as Detective Benito Perez, Jr. I am the interviewer.
To my immediate left front is - -
Mr. Lucas: “Henry Lee Lucas.”
Mr. Perez: And to my immediate right front is” - -
Mr. Uribe: “Detective Ed Uribe, detective with the police department crimes against persons.”
Mr. Perez: “at this time I’d like to advise you of your Constitutional rights, Henry.
“You have the right to remain silent, not make any statement at all, that any statement you make may be used as evidence against you at your trial. Do you understand that, Henry?”
Mr. Lucas: “Yes.”
Mr. Perez: “Any statement you make may be used as evidence against you in court. Do you
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understand that?”
Mr. Lucas: “Yes.”
Mr. Perez: “You have the right to have a lawyer present to advise you prior to and during any questioning.”
Mr. Lucas: “I understand that.”
Mr. Perez: “If you are unable to employ a lawyer, you have the right to have a lawyer appointed to advise you prior to answering any questions.”
Mr. Lucas: “Yes.”
Mr. Perez: “You have the right to terminate the interview at any time.”
Mr. Lucas: “Yes.”
Mr. Perez: “You do understand?”
Mr. Lucas: “Yes, I understand.”
Mr. Perez: “Your Constitutional rights?”
Mr. Lucas: “Right.”
Mr. Perez: “Knowing that you understand, do you wish to waive these rights?”
Mr. Lucas: “Yes, I’ll waive them.”
Mr. Perez: “Pardon?”
Mr. Lucas: “I’ll waive them.”
Mr. Perez:” Okay. Now, Henry, understanding first the offense, talking about the offense of capital murder.”
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Mr. Lucas: “I understand.”
Mr. Perez: “Do you understand what capital murder is?”
Mr. Lucas: “Yes.”
Mr. Perez: “Of course, you understand that it is - - intentionally causes the death of an individual.”
Mr. Lucas: “Yes.”
Mr. Perez: “And, of course, you understand that” - -
Mr. Lucas: “Yes.”
Mr. Perez: - - “in the murder itself, potentially there is an attempt or an actual kidnapping, burglary, robbery or aggravated sexual abuse. It then becomes a capital murder. And do you understand that the penalty under the law of the State of Texas for capital murder is life in prison or the death penalty?”
Mr. Lucas: “Yes.”
Mr. Perez: “You do understand that?”
Mr. Lucas: “Yes, sir.”
Mr. Perez: “And still you understand - - it’s your understanding that you till waive your right to give a statement?”
Mr. Lucas: “Yes.”
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Mr. Perez: “I do have to ask you some questions here and that you are of sound mind and health?”
Mr. Lucas: “Yes.”
Mr. Perez: “Have you used alcohol or drugs recently?”
Mr. Lucas: “No alcohol. I have taken antibiotic medicine for my stomach.”
Mr. Perez: “For your stomach. Your stomach is sore?”
Mr. Lucas: “Yes.”
Mr. Perez: “Okay. I know that you have traveled quite a bit, you put in quite a lot of hours. If you would like, if you are tired. I don’t know if you are.”
Mr. Lucas: “I’m not that tired.”
Mr. Perez: “You are not that tired?”
Mr. Lucas: “No.”
Mr. Perez: “Do you still wish to continue with the interview?”
Mr. Lucas: “Yes. Fine.”
Mr. Perez: “When was the last time you had something to eat or drink, Henry?”
Mr. Lucas: “Just a few minutes ago.”
Mr. Perez: “So no one has threatened you or
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coerced you in any way to elicit this statement from you?”
Mr. Lucas: “No.”
Mr. Perez: “Again I’ll have to advise you this statement is being taped, videotape
Mr. Lucas: “Yes.”
Mr. Perez: “And I understand that you would like for the record to stipulate that this tape will only be used in evidence in the official judicial proceedings?”
Mr. Lucas: “Right.”
Mr. Perez: “I guess briefly we are going to discuss a murder of an elderly lady that occurred in May of 1983.
Mr. Lucas: ‘”Yes.”
Mr. Perez: “For the record, the case - - the El Paso case number for that is 01-37804 K, as in king. The victim’s name was Mrs. Librada, L I B R A D A, Apodaca. She resided at 144 Irma Place.
“Henry, if you would, in your own words tell us basically the events that led to or how you arrived to her house in that - - understand how you got to El Paso and all that night.
“Before we get into that, Henry, we understand that you did go with police officers today
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voluntarily?”
Mr. Lucas: “Yes.”
Mr. Perez: “And you did show the residence where you committed the murder?”
Mr. Lucas: “Yes.”
Mr. Perez: “Here in El Paso. You were not coerced into going to show these officers?”
Mr. Lucas: “No.”
Mr. Perez: “And it is the residence in which you committed the murder?”
Mr. Lucas: “Yes. Took me awhile to find it, but I found it.”
Mr. Perez: “You found it.”
Mr. Lucas: “You go back one place one time, you have been there one time, and you try going back to it, it’s a little difficult.”
Mr. Perez: “A little hard?”
Mr. Lucas: “Yeah.”
Mr. Perez: “You did good, though. Now if you can just briefly or basically just tell us what happened, Henry.”
Mr. Lucas: “Well, I started out with I was on my way back from California. I had been out in California. I had stopped off at a truck stop up here at this end of El Paso. And I sat there for
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awhile drinking coffee and when - - I took and got a sandwich. And I had dropped off a guy just up the road there a little ways and came down to the truck stop and got the coffee and sandwich and I sat there for approximately, well, I got in there about 8:00, 8:30, somewhere around there. I’m not positive, but somewhere around there at the truck stop and I had coffee and a sandwich.
“And I had talked to one of the waitresses in there then, a sort of blonde-headed, and I took and went from there on back out to the car and got back on Interstate 10 heading east. And I was getting a little low on money and stuff and I decided to look for a place to break into, and so I went on out the Interstate 10 for quite a ways and I turned off of Interstate 10 there at a service station, went down by the service station, got gas.
“And then I went out from there, I went out this roadway until I came to a railroad bridge or a railroad, and then I crossed it and then I went on out to a little bridgeway and I crossed it. And then I went a little further and I turned off of that road onto another road and I drove up it a ways and I decided I better park so I could find me a place to break into.
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“So I pulled over to the side of the road and parked, got out and started walking. And I walked for quite a ways around through there the way I was going and I came up on this house where I could see dim light shining out the window. So I couldn’t see anything else around the place except just a vacant field and some other residences, but they was far enough away that there wouldn’t be any sound of me breaking into the place.
“So I go on back down the back of the residence and go around to the end, you know, and I come up on this doorway, and so I tried the door to see if it’s open and it was. So I go in and ended up in the kitchen, and when I got into the kitchen, I walked into the - - I call it the living room.
“And I heard a noise and when I heard that noise, why, I went back to the direction I heard the noise from and when I opened this door, this woman was there. She came running up against me and knocked me up against the edge of the wall there and I grabbed her, and when she knocked me up against the wall, this axe fell over on my feet.
“So I reached down and picked the axe up, and she kept trying to fight to get awayfrom me and I hauled off and hit her. She went sort of backwards
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Like on the bed, and then I swung at her there and then. From after swinging at her, she got away from me and she went in towards the living room and when she got in there, I hit her again with the axe. And I must have hit her five or six times there in the living room, and when - - She was just laying there.
“So I take and get up and go on back to the bedroom and I walk around in the bedroom, looking, you know. Then I seen this blood on my hands from the light that was in the living room - - or the bedroom there, so I take a walk on back to look for the bathroom, and I wash - - I take my rubber gloves off that I usually wear. And I wash my hands and face and hands and my arms off and I put my gloves back on.
“So I walked on back into this bedroom and I started going through everything in the bedroom, the dresser and vanity and closet, and I got some little box of silver coins and stuff that was in the closet in there and I got a couple other items out of the closet and I set it out on the floor there so I could pick it up. And I went on across from there and I said, ‘What the heck? I might as well have sex.’ So I go back and have sex with her.
“And then I come on back out and I go back
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Into this other bedroom and I go through it and I had taken - - come out of there and I went on back into the dining room area and I found me a video sitting in there, so I took it and I looked around through the cabinets and stuff there. I didn’t find anything I really wanted, so I went on back to -- in the living room area and I looked around in there, but I didn’t want anything there.
“So I go on back to the bedroom to pick up the rest of the stuff, and when I get it all picked up and everything, I went on back out to the kitchen. And there were some beer she had sitting on the kitchen table, so I reached and got me a can of beer on my way on through the house and I was lit up when I went on out of the house.
“I guess, all together, about 30 minutes had passed, maybe a little longer and I went on back out across - - back across the wooden fence that was there, but the fence ain’t there now. But it was there. And I crossed across it and went on back over the road, went on back down the roadway and cut back down across the road there and went on back around, back down to the car and I get in it and head on out, and I come on up this way when I came out and I make a right and went back there. I’m sure I crossed a
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Bridge, and I think it’s that other big bridge that we crossed today, come back out and hit 10 and I took and went east on 10, went on into San Antonio.”
Mr. Perez: “Henry, what more or less is the date would this be you were arrested on what?
Mr. Lucas: “I was registered - - arrested on June the 11th.”
Mr. Perez: “How many weeks prior to this?”
Mr. Lucas: “It was three, three or four weeks prior to that, which I estimate in my own mind to be around the 5th or 6th of May. I could be wrong, but I just estimate that.”
Mr. Perez: “Could you describe the lady for us if you would, Henry?”
Mr. Lucas: “Well, she had black hair, sort of blackish-gray hair, a little gray in it. She is about, I estimate, about 140 to 145 pounds, approximately 5’2” or 5’3”. She wasn’t skinny and she wasn’t heavy. She was more of a medium build.
“She is about anywhere from 50 to 60 years old, right in that area.”
Mr. Perez: “What was she wearing?”
Mr. Lucas: “She had a pink, well, I call it, a slip on and a housecoat when I - - when she ran by me there in the doorway. I don’t remember taking her
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Clothes off. I remember pushing her clothes up and taking an old pair of white panties off of her, and I believe I threw the panties down there next to the body, if I ain’t mistaken.”
Mr. Perez: “COuold you describe or identify what you mean by sex, that you had sex with her?”
Mr. Lucas: “I had what they call regular sex, vaginal sex with her.”
Mr. Perez: “Did you ejaculate?”
Mr. Lucas: “Yes. As far as I know, I did.”
Mr. Perez: “How many times did you have sex with her?”
Mr. Lucas: “It’s possible I had it twice, but I think I just had it once. I can remember one time, but I was pretty well - - when I went there, I was pretty well on drugs, alcohol and everything else. I was pretty well high when I was there.”
Mr. Perez: “Did you know if she was alive or dead at the time?”
Mr. Lucas: “Well, I checked her and she was dead, as far as I can remember.”
Mr. Perez: “When did you check her?”
Mr. Lucas: “It was after I had come back from the bathroom. I had checked her then and she was dead.”
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Mr. Perez: “The axe that you said you struck her with, could you describe it for us?”
Mr. Lucas: “It’s a regular - - regular chopping axe. The handle was about maybe three feet long, wooden handle. It was just a regular - - It wasn’t a double-bladed axe that I can remember. It was just a single-bladed axe.”
Mr. Perez: “Do you remember where you left the axe?” Mr. Lucas: “I either left it laying by the bed or I left it laying against the bed. That’s the last place I can remember having it.”
Mr. Perez: “Was this prior or after washing your hands?”
Mr. Lucas: “This was, I believe, after. I’m not positive, but I believe it was after. I brought it back in there and sat it down.”
Mr. Perez: “Where did you - - The first major blow that you struck the lady, where did you” - -
Mr. Lucas: “It was in the back sort of up above the or between the shoulder blades just about was the blow.”
Mr. Perez: “When you struck her with that force, what happened then?”
Mr. Lucas: “She fell. That was - - Well,
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the first blows passed, I think, in the bedroom, but I’m not sure. But I don’t think I hit her too hard there. The second blow would have been between the shoulder blades, which I cornered her as she was running towards the front door. And when I hit her, she went over to my left and seemed like she had fell over the top of something, but I can’t remember exactly what that was.”
Mr. Perez: You stated earlier there was a light in the bedroom?
Mr. Lucas: “Yeah, there was a lamp that was on in the bedroom.”
Mr. Perez: “You did show where that light was on in the house today when we went out there?”
Mr. Lucas: “I believe I did, yeah. I showed you the bedroom where she was at, where the axe was at, the way I had come through the house, and the best I can remember, where I left the body. As far as the body, I could be a little off, but I think I did.
“I showed you each room I went into. I told you about the medicine cabinet in the bathroom area yesterday, I told you the type of bathtub that was there and the type of sink that was there. I tried to draw you the best way I can remember the house. I
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tried to draw you a diagram of that.”
Mr. Perez: “Is there” - -
Mr. Lucas: “There is - - Well, all the stuff in the house just don’t look right because I think it’s all new from somebody else. But it’s what I call the older style furniture that was in the house. It wasn’t new furniture.”
Mr. Perez: “So it’s your understanding that that is the house?”
Mr. Lucas: “I’m positive of that. It’s the same door that I went in with the glass in it and everything, and the rooms - - the only room that has really got me puzzled and that is that center room coming out of the kitchen. I can’t remember that room, but it’s possible I just overlooked it and I thought the whole thing was the living room.”
Mr. Perez: “Is there anything else that you would like to add or maybe delete from this interview?
Mr. Lucas: “No, there ain’t nothing I want to delete from it. As far as I know, I’m telling you straight down the line the way it happened. As I told - - When I first started telling you-all this, I told you then I don’t care what I got or how I got it or anything else. That - - This is strictly off my
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conscience and that’s all I’m interested in.”
Mr. Perez: “Could you describe the medicine cabinet to us?”
Mr. Lucas: “Well, it’s a big mirror that sits in front of the cabinet, and it sits in the wall like in the bathroom and it’s got a big door mirror on it.”
Mr. Perez: “That’s the same one you described to us yesterday?”
Mr. Lucas: “Yes, same one.”
Mr. Perez: “Henry, when you went into the house and you struck the lady with the axe, was that done deliberately or” - -
Mr. Lucas: “Well, I had to hit her. That’s the only way I could do it, you know. That’s the only way I could stop her. In other words, because she would have gotten away from me if I hadn’t. So I went ahead and done it.”
Mr. Perez: “Did you know when you struck her that it could have caused death or did cause death?”
Mr. Lucas: “Oh, I knew it was going to cause death, yeah. It’s like I told everyone else, and I’ll tell you the same thing. I never left a witness, as far as leaving a witness. Unfortunately,
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she was in the house. That’s why she got it.”
Mr. Perez: “How many - - I understand that you have been found guilty or you have pled guilty to how many cases total now?”
Mr. Lucas: “I have got one death sentence and five - - I have pled on two and I have got three - - Let’s see, one, two - - two I pled on and three convictions, which is five, and one capital murder.”
Mr. Perez: “How many cases have you cleared - - or confirmed, I should say?
Mr. Lucas: “I would say 180. I would say roughly 185 that’s cleared. I have got a long way to go.”
Mr. Perez: “How many total do you think there are?”
Mr. Lucas: “Way over 360,”
Mr. Perez: “360.”
Mr. Lucas: “I got a lot here in El Paso yet, but maybe later on I can come back and clear them up if I can get the same people to work with.
Mr. Perez: “Be no problem.”
Mr. Lucas: “I won’t work with nobody else.”
Mr. Perez: “You’re a pleasure. If there is no other questions, unless you have something to add, Henry."
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Mr. Lucas: “No, I think I have pretty well gave you all the details. Of course, I did - - one thing I did forget to mention. After leaving the house, I did go back to the truck stop and sat in there talking to a girl in there trying to get her to go with me. She wouldn’t go and after that, I went on back to San Antonio where I sold the stuff I had taken out of the house.”
Mr. Perez: “What did you sell in San Antonio?”
Mr. Lucas: “I sold all them silver coins, jewelry. There were two or three other items I sold that came out of the house. I didn’t think I sold that radio right then. I think I kept it. As far as the rest of the stuff, I think I sold it all the next day in San Antonio.”
Mr. Perez: “What is your educational background?”
Mr. Lucas: “I have got a fourth grade education, three years of college, and I have got every kind of trade you can think of.
Mr. Perez: “What did they estimate your IQ to be at?”
Mr. Lucas: “I have had doctors tell me my IQ was about 80.”
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Mr. Perez: “Do you believe them?”
Mr. Lucas: “No, I know my IQ is way over that.”
Mr. Perez: “What kind of car did you use when you committed this murder?”
Mr. Lucas: “I was driving a ’73 Pontiac Catalina. It was maroon with a crème top.”
Mr. Perez: “Where did you leave this vehicle at?”
Mr. Lucas: “San Jon, New Mexico.” Mr. Perez: “San Jon, New Mexico?”
Mr. Lucas: “Yes.”
Mr. Perez: “Where is that?”
Mr. Lucas: “Come out of Amarillo, come across the state line of Texas and go into Mexico and it’s the next town into Mexico.”
Mr. Perez: “How was it that the car was found?”
Mr. Lucas: “I called the sheriff and told him to come get it so people wouldn’t strip it on the highway and he come over and picked it up. I talked to the sheriff up there and told him what the circumstances was about the car, and he said, “Well, I’ll take it over and lock it up in the pound. That way you can come get it when you want it.’
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Mr. Perez: “Was that car stolen?”
Mr. Lucas: “No, I was buying the car from another woman. I hadn’t finished paying for it, so it was still in her name.”
Mr. Perez: “Do you remember the woman’s name?”
Mr. Lucas: “I want to call her Martha Moor, but I don’t think that’s right. I think - - Moor is the last name, but it’s something else besides Martha. I can’t think of the first name. It’s Ruben Moor’s ex-sister-in-law.”
Mr. Perez: “Do you recall what you did with the glove that you had?”
Mr. Lucas: “They were surgical gloves. They come out of a hospital out of, I believe it’s San Francisco, California. I go in doctor’s offices all across the country, pick them up and use them.”
Mr. Perez: “Do you recall what you did with those gloves?”
Mr. Lucas: “I threw them out, I think, before I got back to the car. If I remember, I threw them down.”
Mr. Perez: “If there is anything else you would like to say at this time, Henry?”
Mr. Lucas: “I can’t think of anything that
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would be important. I will remember eventually what else I took out of the house, but I just don’t right now. Like I said before about the picture lineup, I won’t look at one unless you can get a bunch of people that look exactly alike where I can go pick her picture out of that bunch and show you who it really is.”
Mr. Perez: “You feel confident you can pick her out?”
Mr. Lucas: “I feel confident I can. I have before and I know I can.”
Mr. Perez: “With this in mind, this will terminate this interview, taped interview. It is now 6:04 p.m. Thank you very much, Henry. Good luck to you.
THE COURT: Mr. Moody, let’s take a lunch break. Let’s come back at 1:30, ladies and gentlemen.
(A lunch recess was taken.)
THE COURT: Okay. Mr. Moody, you may proceed, sir.
MR. PONTON: Excuse me. If I could, Your Honor, this is Ann Leon over here who had some records that she wanted to give to your Honor. She has been subpoenaed by the defense here to bring some records.
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THE COURT: All right. Ms. Leon, come on up here. Why don’t you just turn them over to the bailiff? He will hold onto them. Do you want a receipt for hat?
MS. LEON: No, sir.
THE COURT: Let the record reflect, then, Ms. Ann Leon has turned over some records. What type of records have you turned over to us?
MS. LEON: Medical records from Sun Valley Hospital.
THE COURT: Fine. Okay.
Now, is this lady excused?
MR. PONTON: She’s excused, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Fine. Ms. Leon, you may go back to your job. Thank you very much.
MR. PONTON: Subject to recall, Ms. Leon, as we discussed.
THE COURT: Mr. Dow, just bring those medical records up and put them on the reporter’s desk there and we will go from there. Thank you. All right.
Mr. Moody?
Q. (BY MR. MOODY) All right. Now, Detective Flynn, right before lunch we finished watching the videotaped confession, State’s Exhibit Number 2.
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After viewing it again today, is that still - - is that an unaltered version of the confession as you remember it?
Yes, sir, it is.
Q. Nothing has been added to it or deleted from it?
A. No, sir.
Q. The safeguards you noted, the timing of the seconds were flashing through there, were they not?
A. Yes, that was all consistent.
Q. Was Henry Lucas in any way harassed or coerced in any way in your presence or to your knowledge in order to obtain this statement?
A. No, sir, he was not.
Q. Was he in any way promised anything in exchange for this statement?
A. No, sir, not to my knowledge.
MR. MOODY: Pass the witness.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. PONTON
Q. Detective Flynn, this tape of henry Lee Lucas was taken on September 20th, 1984, was it not?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. That was not the first videotape you ever
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took of Henry Lee Lucas, was it?
That is the only one I have taken of him.
Q. Where you not present on February 13th, 1984, when a videotape was done at a time when Henry Lucas went to some crime scenes or was that just an audiotape?
A. That was just an audiotape.
Q. Was another videotape taken of Henry Lucas on September 20th, 1984, prior to this one?
A. No, sir, not to my knowledge.
Q. Did not the - - Did not you and the other officers start to take a videotape confession from Henry Lucas and have to stop and start again to take this confession right here that we saw before lunch? A. No, sir, not to my knowledge. It was all this one tape.
Q. You didn’t take part of the confession and realize that something had messed up or something hadn’t been said and you went back to do the rest of it, went back to do this one first?
A. No, sir.
Q. So this is the only videotape, to your knowledge, that you have been involved with regarding Henry Lucas?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
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Q. I don’t recall having heard your voice identified at the beginning of this tape. Is that correct?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct. I was not in the room that the recording was being taken. I was in the adjacent room. My voice would not have been picked up on any mikes nor could I have been seen by Mr. Lucas or any of the two officers that were in the room with him.
Q. You weren’t standing behind the camera that was focused in on Mr. Lucas?
A. No, sir. That was a stationary setup in that one location. I sat that up prior to starting the tape and then I went into the other room where all the controls for the recording were. There is a videotape monitor there, television set, as it were, something similar to this one and also the one-way glass that I could look through and see the occupants of the room.
Q. Didn’t - - Did you not just testify that you went back and forth from that room where the one-way mirror was into the room where Henry Lucas was?
A. Well, that was to set up the camera prior to the starting of the tape, but for the duration of the tape, I was in the videotape room, which would be the
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room adjacent to the room where Mr. Lucas was, for the entirety of the tape.
Q. For the entire duration. Were you there from the very beginning when the tape was started?
A. Yes, sir, I started it.
Q. Was the door opened or closed between that room and the room where Mr. Lucas was?
A. Two doors intervening and both were closed - - No, I take that back. The door leading into the room where Mr. Lucas was closed. There is another door right next to it that leads into the videotape room. That was opened and closed from time to time.
Q. Was anybody else in the videotape control room with you when Mr. Lucas was giving his confession?
A. I don’t remember specifically. I do believe that there were some other people that stepped in and out. There were some Texas Rangers and other - - some officers in and out of my room. There was no one in and out of the room where Mr. Lucas was.
Q. Can you recall the names of any of those Texas Rangers or other officers who were in and out of your room?
A. No, sir. To tell you the truth, when they first got in there with Mr. Lucas, that’s the first
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Time I had seen him, about 15 minutes prior to starting the tape. And I was very busy setting up the equipment and I didn’t talk to these gentlemen any more than that.
Q. Did you recognize any of these Texas Rangers as having been Texas Rangers assigned to El Paso?
A. No, sir. I did not. I believe they were all from out of town.
Q. Had you ever reviewed any confessions by Henry Lucas prior to taping this confession?
A. I had seen some tapes or listened to some audiotapes of henry talking about some other cases.
Q. Some audiotapes or videotapes? I’m sorry. I didn’t catch that.
A. I had seen some bits and pieces of some videotapes and listened to some audiotapes, nothing really in its entirety.
Q. Was this regarding other cases in El Paso County or other parts of the State?
A. This was in regards to a specific case in El Paso County.
Q. Do you recall the case?
A. This was in reference to a murder that Mr. Lucas had said he committed in El Paso County and where he deposited the body around the Trans Mountain
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area of El Paso. This was in regards to an interview where my partner at the time, Detective Greg Lucas, had gone and interviewed him and brought back some tapes, videotapes of interviewing him.
Q. Was that the time Greg Lucas went to Williamson County to interview Henry Lucas?
A. Yes, sir, I believe so.
Q. Do you know how many times Greg Lucas went to Williamson County to interview Henry Lucas?
A. I believe just once.
Q. Had you ever interviewed or seen Henry Lucas prior to that September 20th of 1984?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. When was that?
A. The first time that I had seen and talked with Mr. Lucas was in February, February the 13th, when he was brought here to El Paso.
Q. Was that when he was brought here to try to go to the crime scenes involving the case that your partner, Greg Lucas, had talked to Henry about in December?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. Did you travel around with Greg Lucas and Henry Lucas in February of 84?
A. Yes, I did.
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Q. Did Henry Lucas take you to any crime scenes?
A. Yes, he took us to several crime scenes around El Paso or several areas that he was trying to describe to us.
Q. Did he describe several areas where he said he had dumped bodies?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you ever find any bodies where he said there were some?
A. We were doing this in conjunction with the sheriff’s department. They had a crime scene around Horizon City where they had two bodies dumped and we did interview him in reference to that or the sheriff’s deputies did - -
Q. What was - - Excuse me. I didn’t mean to interrupt.
A. There was also another crime scene location down by the river, the Rio Grande, around the Canutillo area we had taken him to where we had discovered a body, and he showed us two other locations where he remembered dropping off a body after having committed a murder.
Q. Does that make a total of five in El Paso County that you-all were questioning him about in February of 1984?
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A total of four, I believe.
Q. You said two near Horizon City?
A. Well, there were two bodies in one location.
Q. But five different bodies, four different locations?
A. Yes.
Q. Is that correct?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. Other than - - What happened with the case with the two bodies near Horizon City? Was that case ever cleared as having been committed by Henry Lucas?
A. No, it was not. When we took him out to the area, he checked around the area and to the best of his knowledge, he couldn’t have recollected being out there having committed any murder.
Q. In February of 1984, how many unsolved transient type murders were there in El Paso County, to your knowledge?
A. In El Paso County, that would encompass the sheriff’s department, also. I’m not sure there, but as far as the City of El Paso, my jurisdiction --
Q. Your jurisdiction, please.
A. I don’t recall any, to be specific. There may have been, but I would have to go back through and check our records.
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Q. Any other than these five or any, period?
A. The two bodies that were out in Horizon City that the sheriff’s department were interested in was a case handled by them. I was not involved in that investigation at all. The one body that was left down by the Rio Grande, I believe at that particular time, was approximately a year old. There were no other bodies that I knew of or that I can specifically recall at this point that were unsolved transient type cases.
Q. Would that include El Paso County murders? Would you be aware of murders that the sheriff’s department would be working on?
A. Just whatever I would read in the newspapers or if the sheriff’s department asked for some assistance or cooperation in reference to an investigation, I might know about it, but not as a routine matter, no.
Q. So is it your testimony that other than these five murders that you were questioning Henry Lucas about in February of 1984, there were no other transient type unsolved murders in El Paso County at that time, to your knowledge?
A. No. First off, we were not questioning him about five murders. He had come to us indicating he
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Had some murders out there. If he was able to have shown us a body or the remains of a body or something like that, then we would have certainly have generated a case on that, but at that particular point there were only the two bodies in Horizon City, one separate case handled by the sheriff’s department and then there was one other case where a young lady had been killed and her body had been deposited down by the Rio Grande around Canutillo area. Those were the only two specific cases we had bodies at the time.
Q. And you were not able to conclude that Henry Lucas was involved in all of either one of those cases, were you?
A. Either one of those two cases, the bodies in Horizon City and the one out there by the Rio Grande, no, sir.
Q. And why was that?
A. He indicated that he didn’t know anything about it, was not involved, and there was no other direct evidence to indicate that he was involved.
Q. Now, was Henry Lucas taken to look at a possible crime scene or did he take you-all to a possible crime scene near the Executive Center exit on Interstate 10, Gateway West?
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No, sir.
Q. Prior to your talking to Henry Lucas in February of 1984, did you review the supplements taken from the interviews with Greg Lucas and Henry Lucas in Williamson County that were taken in December of ’83?
A. I didn’t review the supplements. I talked with Detective Lucas and he explained to me primarily what he was looking for. At that particular point, he was the primary investigator in the case.
Q. Had you ever spoken with any investigators with the Department of the Army or the FBI regarding any possible murders that may have been committed within their jurisdictions in this area by Henry Lucas?
A. Yes, I believe there was one case they were looking into where the body of the victim had been dropped on the freeway or the highway leading between Las Cruses and Alamogordo, New Mexico, across the Oregon Mountains. I believe the body was deposited onto military property and they were looking into that.
Q. Do you recall whether or not that case was ever cleared as having been committed by Henry Lucas?
A. Not to my knowledge.
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Q. Were you aware of the two Army investigators who had spoken with Henry Lucas about that crime in July of 1983?
A. I can’t say specifically. Something vague in the back of my mind. I believe I do remember some military people talking to him, but specifically I don’t recall.
Q. A couple of investigators by the name of Archuleta and Engleking?
A. Not specifically, no, sir.
Q. When - - Did you do any work on the case involving the death of Librada Apodaca other than this videotape?
A. Other than this videotape, no, sir.
Q. Did you work with Greg Lucas on any cases during the period of time between the death of Librada Apodaca and the taking of this videotape?
A. Yes, I ‘m sure there were several cases in that time period. We both worked as partners in the crimes against persons division.
Q. Did he discuss with you the fact that he was working on the case of the death of - - involving the death of Librada Apodaca?
A. No, sir, to my knowledge, he was not.
Q. To your knowledge, he was not working on
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that case?
No, sir, he was not.
Q. Do you recall that Greg Lucas asked Henry Lucas about the Librada Apodaca murder when he was in Georgetown in December of 1983?
A. No, sir, I was not with him as far as my own communications with Detective Lucas. It was never my - - there was never any indication he discussed the Librada Apodaca murder with Mr. Lucas at all.
Q. Ever?
A. Ever.
THE COURT: Go ahead.
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) When Greg Lucas went to Georgetown in December of 1983, did you discuss with him that trip prior to him going out there?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did he tell you what cases he was curious about as to whether or not Henry Lucas was involved in?
A. There was a private investigator who had seen Mr. Lucas and in his mind, felt Mr. Lucas was talking about a case where we had a missing person where we never really recovered the body of the individual in the case. And we had discussed that case. That was part of the reason that - - well, I
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believe all the reason Detective Lucas was going to talk to Mr. Lucas in Georgetown.
We had discussed that case and I had taken some photographs of the city of El Paso, just general pictorial renderings of the approaches on each of the highways coming into El Paso and so forth so that if necessary, these could be shown to Mr. Lucas during the interview. Now, whether they were shown to him or not, I’m not sure. I believe some of them where.
Q. Do you recall the name of the private detective?
A. I believe his last name was Lee.
Q. And do you recall the missing person that he was involved in investigating?
A. The name escapes me right now. I knew you were going to ask me that.
Q. Do you recall the family that had hired him to look into that missing person?
A. Well, it was for the family and I just - - right now the name just escapes me. I’m sorry.
Q. Do you recall approximately when it was that that private detective talked to Henry Lucas about this missing person in El Paso County?
A. I believe it was a couple months before Detective Lucas went down there to see him.
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Q. So that would place it in the fall of 1983?
A. I think pretty close to then. I’m just guessing at that.
Q. Assuming that my records indicate that Greg Lucas went there December 20th, 1983 - -
A. I believe that’s approximately correct.
Q. - - then do you recall how long that private detective spent with Henry Lucas?
A. No, sir, I don’t know how long he - - specifically he spent there. I didn’t talk with him, Greg Lucas, in reference to his interview with Henry.
Q. How many photographs did you take of El Paso for Greg Lucas for him to take to Georgetown?
A. I don’t recall specifically how many. I would estimate probably about 15 or 20.
Q. And what areas were these photographs of specifically, to the best of your recollection?
A. Okay. Specifically, the Trans Mountain area, Trans Mountain and the Interstate 10, all of the approaches, in other words, I-10 east and west, Trans Mountain itself, views of Trans Mountain Road both - - well, actually east and west at the location with the interstate, views of, I believe, northeast El Paso coming into U.S. 54 and the view of El Paso as you come in on Interstate 10, west from east of El Paso
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as you come into the city limits. And I believe that there were also some photographs taken of the Chevron truck stop located at, I believe, Airway and Interstate 10.
Q. Where any photographs taken of the central El Paso area?
A. I believe, if I’m not mistaken, there was a couple of photographs taken of the downtown El Paso area from the freeway as you were traveling into El Paso right about where Geronimo Street where the freeway dips down where you can see the downtown El Paso area. I took some photographs of that.
Q. Do you know where the photographs that you took are right now?
A. Not specifically. I would just assume they were with Detective Lucas’ investigation.
Q. Into that missing person?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you recall the date that missing person disappeared?
A. It was about a year prior to this. I’m not - - as a matter of fact, I’m not real sure on that.
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Q. Was it in 1982?
A. To tell the truth, I’m not sure.
Q. Okay. Did you ever talk to Henry Lucas on the telephone prior to seeing him on September 20th, 1984?
A. No, sir, I did not. I have never had any conversation with him on the phone.
Q. Are you aware of any members of the El Paso Police Department who had any conversations with him by telephone?
A. No, sir, I’m not.
Q. On - - In February of 1984, how long were you and Lieutenant Marquez and Clayton Smith and Ray Hardison with Henry Lucas when you - - all were driving around looking at crime scenes, approximately?
A. From approximately 11:00, 11:30 in the morning that day. I left them at about 4:00 or 4:30, around that time. They were with him for a little while longer after that. I don’t know specifically how much longer.
Q. Were all of you in a van that day?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. Was - - What type of van was it? Was it a police department van?
A. No, we obtained a van through a local car
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Dealer that was an acquaintance of Detective Lucas and he allowed us to use the van for security purposes because, number one, it was unmarked, number two, it would accommodate all the individuals that needed to ride along. And it’s basically your typical custom modified van that - - bench seat in the back and had four - - I believe a total of four captain’s chairs, swivel type captain chairs.
Q. Was it new?
A. I believe it was used, but it was about six months old or so.
Q. What dealership provided that to the police department?
A. It was the Story Cadillac dealership.
Q. What person at the dealership did you-all contact to gain - - to get use of that vehicle?
A. I don’t recall the gentleman’s name. He was one of the - - I believe the new car manager there.
Q. And do you know if there was any kind of formal contract or any kind of formal document reflecting that they were loaning this van to the police department?
A. Oh, no, it was just strictly a favor. Detective Lucas knew this gentleman and asked if there was any such van that he might be able to give
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him. And he just loaned it to him on that basis.
Q. To your knowledge, was that van ever used again in the investigation of Henry Lucas in El Paso County?
A. No, sir, not to my knowledge.
Q. Referring to February 13th of ’84, was - - did - - Let me get this straight. It was you and Lieutenant David Marquez with the El Paso County Sheriff’s office and Clayton Smith with the Texas Rangers from Georgetown?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And Ray Hardison from the Williamson County Sheriff’s Department?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And Henry Lucas?
A. Yes.
Q. Was there anyone else?
A. Detective Greg Lucas.
Q. And Detective Greg Lucas. Why was Ray Hardison present, do you know?
A. No, I don’t, aside from the fact, I believe, that he was the sheriff in charge of Henry at that particular time. I think it was out of his jail and that might have been why he came along.
Q. Do you know how they arrived in El Paso
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County that day?
Yes, by Department of Public Safety aircraft.
Q. Do you know what type of aircraft?
A. A twin engine Cessna.
Q. What time of the day did that aircraft arrive?
A. I believe it arrived about 11:15 a.m.
Q. Did you and Greg Lucas and David Marquez meet it at the airport?
A. Yes, we did.
Q. Where did you-all go after you met the airplane?
A. After the airplane was met and they transferred over to the van, we left that location and went out Interstate 10 east toward the outskirts of town.
Q. Did you stop for lunch?
A. Yes, after we had gone out to Interstate 10 east and looked around that particular area and the Horizon City area, right after that it was pretty close to lunch time - - well, actually past lunch time and we stopped and had lunch.
Q. Where was that?
A. At the Iron Skillet at the Petro truck stop.
Q. And did Mr. Lucas go in and eat with you,
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Mr. Henry Lucas?
Yes, sir, he did.
Q. Was he handcuffed when he went in there or not?
A. No, sir, he was not.
Q. Was he dressed in civilian clothes?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you find anything out I-10 east before lunch on February 13th, 84?
A. When we went out there to that area, Mr. Lucas indicated that he seemed to remember dropping a body off the side of the interstate out there, but when we arrived out there, the whole area where he remembered having dropped the body had been graded up and there was extensive road work being done out there.
And when we got out there, he mentioned that right after - - off the bat, he said “How long has this be going on?” We indicated it started relatively recently and he said, “That wasn’t here when I dropped the body. That road work, that grading was not here.”
Q. Was there any other discussion regarding that east I-10 alleged murder?
A. There was some discussion just among us
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There if he was positive about it, and he said he was and that he described the area prior to the excavation out there as being kind of a grassy area, which was consistent. And other than that, that was about it.
Q. Had you ever had a report of any body found out in that area?
A. No, sir, not in that location.
Q. And then you went to Horizon City?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. Had you ever had a report of a missing person at Horizon City?
A. Yes, there were two bodies found out there, unsolved homicide case that the sheriff’s department was handling.
Q. Was Henry Lucas questioned about that case?
A. We went out in that particular area. The whole format of taking Mr. Lucas around was based on, “We are going to drive you out in this direction. If you see something that you recall, specifically recall in reference to a homicide you might have committed, you bring it to our attention.” This is primarily the format as we went out Interstate 10 east and this is where he was describing these things to us.
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So when we started out towards Horizon City, we asked - - we told him that we were going to head out this road and asked him if he had ever been out there and asked if he had ever committed any murders. Specifically, there were no details in reference to cases we have. It was just sort of if you see something that jogs your memory or if you specifically remember something, you tell us about it.
Q. Where did this van drive to in Horizon City?
A. Just straight out Horizon City Boulevard. I was driving the van. Henry was riding in the right front passenger seat with me, and we went out Horizon Boulevard. We went out about halfway into the housing area, city out there, whatever you want to call it, turned around and came back.
Q. Where was the point where you turned around and came back in reference to the place where the unidentified bodies had been located?
A. I’m not sure where the bodies had been located by the sheriff’s department. They had not given us a copy of that case and I had not worked it at all, so I was just informed that we were well past the areas where the bodies had been dropped off. So if he hadn’t said anything at that time, obviously he was not involved or wasn’t going to say whether he
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was involved or not, so we just turned around and came back. Once again, like I said, we gave no specific indications or specific information about any cases.
Q. You didn’t give him any information about those unidentified bodies found there in Horizon City?
A. No, sir, not to my knowledge. Aside from the fact there had been two bodies recovered out there, but specific information such as they were recovered right over there or anything along those lines, no, sir. As a matter of fact, even after I had gone out there driving the van myself with the sheriff’s deputies in the back, I still couldn’t take you back out there and show you where it was at.
Q. From there, did you drive up as you go to - - did you go to Canutillo next or did you go up to Trans Mountain?
A. At that particular point, we headed back down toward the freeway.
Q. Did you go by the truck stop?
A. Which truck stop are you referring to?
Q. The Chevron truck stop at Airway and Interstate 10.
A. After we came back out of Horizon City, we doubled back and went to the Petro truck stop and had
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Lunch, and then after we had lunch, we proceeded once again on the freeway on Interstate 10 west down to the area of the Chevron truck stop. And at that point, best of my recollection, we got off the freeway, drove through the truck stop, did not stop, did not get out of the vehicle, got back onto the freeway.
At that point he indicated yes, he recognized the truck stop area and he started to guide us to an area off of Trans Mountain Road where he indicated that he had dropped her body. At that point, he was doing all the navigation. He would tell me where to go and as we were driving along, he would indicate where to get off the freeway. And at this point, he indicated the Trans Mountain exit.
Q. Where is that Petro Lewis truck stop that you are referring to?
A. The Petro truck stop is out at, I believe it is Horizon exit by the east city limits of El Paso.
Q. Coming back from that location, you drove past the Zaragoza exit, didn’t you?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you would have driven past the Zaragoza exit going east on your way out to Horizon Boulevard, would you not?
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Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. And when you were heading east toward Horizon City to look for those two - - for the location where those two bodies were, was that when Henry Lucas was in the front passenger seat of the van with you driving?
Yes, sir, he was up front at that time.
Q. And you drove past the Zaragoza exit and as you drove past that exit, did Henry Lucas make any mention to you of having committed a murder in that area?
A. No, sir, he made no mention at that time. Later on he made mention of something to that effect when we were coming back from Horizon City.
Q. When he made mention coming back, what mention did he make, sir?
A. When we were coming back from Horizon City on Horizon Boulevard, just prior to turning onto the Gateway and then subsequently getting on the freeway again heading west, Greg Lucas had asked him after, you know, we had finished up the area in Horizon if he had done any other cases in El Paso, and he stopped for a second and thought and then he pointed off in a southwesterly direction and said, “Just that old lady
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in Mexico.” And he was pointing toward the Ysleta area.
Q. Did you question him any further about that case?
A. No, sir. As a matter of fact, based on the fact that he said, “Just that old lady in Mexico,” we didn’t go into it any further. Like I said, he pointed off in the direction - - This roadway as it comes down to the freeway is relatively high up and you can pretty much see the whole lower valley and the city of El Paso.
And at that point as were coming down, slowing down to the stop, he reached over and pointed toward Ysleta and said, “Just that old lady in Mexico,” and that was the only comment he made. And at that point, primarily my function in that case was just to drive them around, chauffeur them around basically, and Detective Lucas didn’t pursue it any further.
MR. PONTON: May I approach the witness, Your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes, sir.
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) This is a transcript of the February 13th 1984, van trip that was taken. The second line on page 9 is Henry Lucas. Could you
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Please read that?
Just this where it says, “Henry Lucas”?
Q. Yes.
A. “It’s the same, but I - - we ain’t - - we ain’t got no cases up here.”
Q. Do you know who Henry Lucas was referring to when he said we?
A. I’d have to read back through the rest of the transcript. I don’t know who he is referring to. Very possible be referring to Ottis Toole.
Q. Do you recall whether Henry Lucas had ever during the February 13th, 1984, interview mentioned committing any murders in El Paso with anyone other than Ottis Toole?
A. No, sir, specifically I don’t recall.
Q. Would you - - Do you recall reviewing this transcript before you testified again today?
A. No, sir, I have never reviewed the transcript.
Q. Did you ever look at the tape before testifying today - -
A. Yes.
Q. - - of the - - listen to the tape of the February 13th, 1984, van ride? Did you ever listen to that since that day?
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Yes, sir, I have.
Q. When was the last time you listened to that tape, sir?
A. The last time I recall listening to it, I believe it was Wednesday or Thursday of last week sometime. I’m not sure.
Q. Did you ever listen to that tape before the videotaping Henry Lucas in September of ’84?
A. No, sir, I did not.
Q. Did you ever have any conversations with any other - - with members of any other law enforcement jurisdictions regarding the death of Librada Apodaca?
A. No, sir. I was not in any way involved in the death - - in the investigation of the death of Librada Apodaca aside from taking this videotaped confession of what Mr. Lucas had to say.
Q. Were you involved in taping any confessions of statements of Mr. Lucas in October of 1984?
A. No, sir, I was not.
Q. Do you know how many cases in El Paso County Henry Lucas claims to have been involved in?
A. No, sir, not specifically. I know that he has talked about some cases, if that’s what you mean. I can indicate what cases he has been talking about.
Q. Please indicate for me the cases that he has
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indicated he had any involvement in.
Well, there were two cases where we do not have a body involved in the case, one being the instance where he pointed out the location on Interstate 10 east and west coming into the city limits of El Paso on the east side of town. At that location, the area had been all graded up, I believe, in preparation for putting in the gateways out there. There was no body at that point found nor had there been any reported there. It’s unknown, you know, how far decomposition might have affected the bodies of whatever or whether the grading might have destroyed any evidence that might have been there.
The next case that he indicated that he might have been involved with was a case where he indicated he picked someone up at the truck stop and taken them out, strangled them and left them in the desert after having postmortem sex with the body in the area of the gas line road off of Trans Mountain where he described to Detective Lucas during his interview with him.
Q. That was the interview of December of ’83?
A. I believe so, when Detective Lucas went to Georgetown to talk to him.
Q. Was that alleged body ever found?
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No, sir, it was not.
Q. Was it your conclusion that that murder never took place?
A. Well, it’s kind of hard to say being in a desert area out there. There is a great deal of animal activity and so forth. The only thing I can say is that I was unable to uncover any kind of evidence that there was a body there. There were no bones and so forth. It would just strictly be speculation as to how much animal activity might have taken place, decomposition. It might have totally eradicated the crime scene of where the body might have been.
Q. Was a thorough search made of that crime scene?
A. Yes, sir, on several different occasions.
Q. Did the Boy Scouts ever assist in any of those searches?
A. No, sir, not to my knowledge.
Q. When Mr. Lucas came - - returned to El Paso - - Let me ask you this: Do you know if Mr. Lucas came to El Paso between February of ’84 and September of ’84, Mr. Henry Lucas?
A. I don’t specifically recall. I don’t think so.
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Q. Do you know if any members of the El Paso Police Department had any conversations with Henry Lucas between February and September of ’84?
A. No, sir, specifically I don’t. I believe that some of the other detectives in crimes against persons, specifically Benny Perez, may have talked to him prior to his visit here in El Paso. I believe that it was just prior to, maybe the day before. But other instances where he might have been brought into town, the only thing I can tell you is I did not interview with him. I did not talk to him nor did I see him.
Q. Nor are you aware of any other members of the El Paso Police Department speaking to him except right before the September 20th, ’84, visit?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. Were you aware of the medication that Henry Lucas was taking in September of ’84?
A. The only thing that was ever indicated that was having some problems with his stomach. Specifically the medicine he was taking, no. He never said to me.
Q. Where did Mr. Lucas spend the night of September 20th, 1984?
A. In the El Paso County Jail.
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Q. Do you know what he had to eat that night?
A. No, sir, I don’t.
Q. Were you aware Henry Lucas had been interviewed on September 19th, 1984, by Benny Perez in Sierra Blanca, Texas?
A. That is the interview that I was talking about. I’m not positive. I don’t know. All I’m getting it from is just hearsay, speculation. I cannot say for sure that he did interview him. I believe he did.
Q. Do you know where Henry Lucas spent the night of September 20th, 1984?
A. No, sir, I do not.
Q. Do you know where Henry Lucas was the morning of September 19th, 1984, prior to coming to El Paso?
A. No, sir, I do not.
Q. When - - Do you know when Henry Lucas left El Paso after the September 20th confession?
A. No sir, I don’t.
Q. In February of 1984 when the van was going to these various sites, were there any other police cars or units following the van?
A. Yes, sir, there was.
Q. How many?
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There was one other police car from El Paso Police Department.
Q. Was it marked?
A. No, sir, it wasn’t a marked detective car.
Q. Who was in it?
A. I don’t recall specifically.
Q. Do you recall how many officers?
A. I believe there were just two.
Q. And in September of 1984, on September 20th, didn’t Henry Lucas go out to the alleged crime scene of the death of Librada Apodaca?
A. No, sir, he did not.
Q. He did not on September 20th, 1984?
A. No. I’m sorry. I’m confused here. I’m thinking of February.
Q. I’m sorry. I’m not trying to confuse you, Officer.
Did not Henry Lucas on September 20th, 1984, go to 144 Irma which is the place where Librada Apodaca had been living in May of ’83?
I was told that he had gone out there, but to tell you the truth, 15 minutes prior to my seeing him I wouldn’t have known where he was.
Q. Were you told whether or not he had gone out there in that same van that you used in February?
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No, sir, I was never told specifically what type of vehicle he went out there in. I don’t think he went out there in that van based on the fact that it was just done as a favor to Detective Lucas on a one-time basis.
Q. Okay. Do you know how many officers went out there to that crime scene on September 20th?
A. No, sir, I have no idea.
Q. When Henry gave this confession that is identified as State’s Exhibit 2, did Mr. Lucas have a lawyer?
A. On - - When this confession was taken?
Q. Yes, September 20th, 1984, confession.
A. No, sir.
Q. Do you know if any lawyer - - if he was given access to any lawyer to discuss his rights under the Texas and United States Constitutions prior to giving that confession to the officers?
A. Yes, sir. He has had an attorney on almost a continuing basis ever since we became involved in the case. As a matter of fact, my partner, Detective Lucas, secured permission from his attorney in Georgetown to come and visit with him and talk to him prior to even going and talking to Mr. Lucas. So at that particular point, at any rate, he did have an
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attorney who was actively representing him.
Q. Do you know if that attorney gave any specific permission for Henry to talk about the death of Librada Apodaca with members of the El Paso Police Department on September 20th, 1984?
A. I have no knowledge of that.
Q. Do you know who his attorney was in September of 1984?
A. No, sir, I do not.
Q. Did you or any other members of the El Paso Police Department speak with any attorney for Henry Lucas on September of 1984?
A. Well, sir, I don’t know if any of the other detectives might have talked with his attorney at that time. I know that I did not.
Q. Was there anything more on that videotape? Is there any other discussions videotaped that indicated - - besides what is on the videotape marked State’s Exhibit 2?
A. No, sir, I believe not.
MR. PONTON: Pass the witness, Your Honor.
THE COURT: We are going to recess. Ms. Sipes, you are wanted in the other court.
(A recess was taken)
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BY MR. MOODY:
Q. Detective Lucas - - Detective Flynn, did - - to this day have you ever been to the Librada Apodaca’s home?
A. No, sir, I have not.
Q. Do you have any idea exactly where it’s at?
A. Other than I believe it’s in the lower valley somewhere, I couldn’t take you there right now.
Q. Did you ever take Henry Lucas to her home, to Librada Apodaca?
A. No, sir.
Q. Now, the defense attorneys asked you about the, I guess, February 1984 ride in the van where you were out in Horizon city area. Do you recall that?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you recall them asking you about the portion about the reference to the old lady in Mexico?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, that van ride, that was audiotaped, was it not?
A. Yes, sir, it was.
Q. And you have had a chance to listen to that, have you not?
A. Yes, sir.
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Q. I would like you to listen to this portion. Is this the portion you were speaking about? Just go ahead and - - Just for one second, stop.
MR. MOODY: Mark this as State’s Exhibit 3.
(State’s Exhibit marked, s-3)
Q. (BY MR. MOODY) Now, if I have this in the right place, let’s try to listen to this to see if this is the portion that you recall on the reference where you were talking about when Lucas was pointing. Remember that part?
A. Yes, sir.
(At this time, a portion of State’s Exhibit 3 was played with the following transcription :)
Mr. Lucas: “The only other one I know is that old woman and there ain’t no way we can go out to her, I don’t think.”
Greg Lucas: “Why is that?”
Henry Lucas: “I think it’s out in Mexico.”
Greg Lucas: “In Mexico?”
Henry Lucas: “I think it is.”
Greg Lucas: “Well, can you find it, do you think, the direction that you traveled on the interstate?”
Henry Lucas: “Yeah, I can find it.”
Q. (BY MR. MOODY) Okay. Now, was that the
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portion of the tape when he had pointed out when he was around the Horizon Boulevard exit right before you went to lunch?
Yes, sir, that’s the section of the tape.
Q. All right.
THE COURT: I was asking if she was able to get any of that on her recorder, and I couldn’t hear it.
MR. MOODY: The volume is low on that tape. The quality is not real high. We have a transcript of it.
THE COURT: Mr. Moody, I’m not questioning it. I was just wondering if the court reporter was able to get it down is what I was - -
MR. MOODY: Did you want to see that afterwards?
Pass the witness.
MR. PONTON: May I play that again, Your Honor, maybe turn it up to see if we could hear it a little better with Mr. Moody’s assistance?
(At this time, a portion of State’s Exhibit 3 was played with the following transcription :)
Henry Lucas: “It’s the same, but we haven’t got no cases up there.”
Greg Lucas: “Let’s go back to the freeway.
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Okay, Henry. You said that you got the one between those two mileposts we talked about. How many others - - How many other cases in this county or this area?
Henry Lucas: “the only other one I know is that old woman and there ain’t no way we can go out to her, I don’t think.”
Greg Lucas: “Why is that?”
Henry Lucas: “I think it’s out in Mexico.”
Greg Lucas: “In Mexico?”
Henry Lucas: “I think it is.”
Greg Lucas: “Well, can you find it, do you think, the direction that you traveled on the interstate?”
Henry Lucas: “Yeah, I can find it.”
Greg Lucas: “Okay. We’ll just get back on Interstate 10 west and let you us where it’s at. It’s going to be a long drive from here, I have now 12:11 p.m., so we are going to stop the tape, okay?”
RECROSS-EXAMINATION
By Mr. Ponton:
Q. Sir, the quality is poor on that, but what I remember hearing on that just then was you or someone saying that you were about to get back on the interstate after whatever it was that Mr. Lucas said
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on the tape. Is that what you recall?
Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. So when Mr. Lucas was making reference to the old woman, that would have been at a time when the van was not on the interstate?
A. Yes, sir. That’s when we were still on Horizon Boulevard right there about ready to make a right turn onto Gateway, which would be another 200 yards down the road turns into the freeway.
Q. Okay. That would have been on your way back from looking at the purported crime scenes there in Horizon City?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. Do you recall that the tape that was transcribed, whether or not that tape was turned off and on at different periods of time during the time you were driving around with Henry Lucas?
A. Yes, sir, it was. It was turned off and on. Each time the tape was turned off Detective Lucas would give the time it was turned off and then the time it was turned back on.
Q. Now, do you know if the tape was turned off between going out to the Horizon City area and the time that you just heard when he said it was 12:11 and he was about to turn the tape off?
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I’m not sure I understand what you are - -
MR. PONTON: May I approach the witness, Your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes, sir.
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) I just found something here in my transcript, page 2 of the 2-13-84 transcript where - - Could you read that where he says where Greg Lucas makes that statement at the bottom of that page?
A. Yes. “I think we will go ahead and end the tape here. I have 11:29 and we will just stop the tape until we are ready to - - when you are ready, Henry, okay?”
Q. Okay. And the next entry there it says - - Could you please read the time the tape was started up again?
A. The time is 12:00 noon.
Q. Okay. Do you recall what the group of you-all in the van with the captain’s chairs did for that 30 minute period of time that the tape was not on, where you-all went and what you were doing?
A. Well, I’d have to read a little bit more of the transcript there to - -
Q. Okay. I didn’t mean to take it away from you. There is nothing in the transcript for that period of time, but feel free - -
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MR. PONTON: May I approach the witness?
Q. Prior to the tape being turned off, in other words, is that what I’m talking about.
A. Okay. Between that time period of 11:29, that’s when we picked him up at the airport.
Q. Yes.
A, The tape was initially stopped after people were identified on the tape and the primary aspect of the tape was begun. The tape was shut off at 11:29 and then it was turned back on again about 12:00 noon. Now, this would be when we were out in the area of Interstate 10 east and west by the east city limit markers of El Paso.
Q. Is that out where you were looking at Horizon City?
A. No sir. This would be beyond that a little ways where we were looking for the purported bodies alongside the roadway that Henry told us about, and the gap in there of approximately 30 minutes would be just merely the drive from El Paso International Airport out to that location.
Q. Do you have any recollection, sir, of what discussions took place during that 30 minute break in the tape when you were out there on east I-10 near the east El Paso city limits?
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No, sir, there was really no specific conversations in reference to cases or murders or anything like that. It was just small talk until we got out there to that area and the tape was turned back on.
Q. Do you recall any talk during that period of time about a Mexican lady from California that you-all may have had any discussions with Henry Lucas about possibly killing?
A. No, sir, I don’t recall that.
Q. Was there only one tape recorder that day on February 13th, 1984, or was there more than one tape recorder in the van when you-all were riding around with Henry?
A. To my knowledge, there was just one tape recorder in operation. Someone else in the sheriff’s office might have had a breast pocket tape recorder of some sort, but I have no knowledge of that.
Q. You think they may have had a breast pocket tape recorder?
A. No. I’m just saying, you know, it’s a possibility, but there is no information to indicate that.
Q. When you got to the crime scenes, would you-all go out and walk around a little?
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The only crime scene we got out of the van at and walked around was the one on Trans Mountain. When we got out to the area Trans Mountain and he directed us to turn off of the freeway onto Trans Mountain Road, as we were proceeding east on Trans Mountain, he said, “Now you come to a dirt road up here. The first dirt road that you come to, make a right.”
And approximately three quarters of a mile to a mile up is a dirt road. It’s the gas line road that runs pretty much parallel to the interstate system. They call it the gas line road because it’s Southern Union Gas construction line down through there. It is just a dirt road.
And that’s where he indicated that we should turn right and turn off of the Trans Mountain Road. When we got into that area out there, we did stop the vehicles where he indicated that we should stop the van, and we got out and looked around.
Q. When the tape was stopped, what type of discussions would you have with Henry Lucas?
A. Really nothing of any importance. The only thing that comes to mind to me was a remark that Henry made to me as we were going out the freeway from the airport. This would be to the first
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Location where we were looking for the first two bodies. We noticed two hitchhikers on the side of the road, a man and a woman. They looked like transient types. They were hitchhiking and Henry looked at them for a long time until we passed them, and then he turns around and looks at me and says, “I would have picked them up.”
And I just noticed - - I remember it was to me kind of surprising because it made me almost want to go back and tell these kind of people, you know, these two people on the side of the road who we had in the van and tell them how fortunate they were that we had him and he wasn’t out alone because of his statement.
Q. He didn’t tell you he was going to pick them up and kill them, did he?
A. No, but by the tone of his voice and the way he said it, I think it was pretty clear what his intentions were.
Q. Oh. Then - - So is it your testimony that all the times when the tape was turned off you engaged in small talk and you only talked about these offenses when the tape was turned on?
A. Yes, sir.
MR. PONTON: Pass the witness, Your Honor.
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BY MR. MOODY:
Q. All right. In other words, when you have long distances to travel between one area and another where there wouldn’t be much said, that the time - - instead of having a long period of nothing being said on the tape, you just turned it off?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. Not you, but I think Greg Lucas was the one?
A. Yes, Detective Lucas was the one operating the tape and during the periods of time when we were not at areas where Henry was going to point something out to us or we were not going to discuss the case, we just turned the tape off.
Q. So in other words, you were at the airport - - when Mr. Ponton was talking to you and you mentioned the time was 11:29 or Greg Lucas did, 11:29 a.m., and that was the initial beginning of the tape and then turned it off and the next time we pick it up on page 3 is you’re west of Clint about a half an hour later. Is that right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. In other words, that’s the time it took you-all to get sorted out there in the parking lot
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And headed out in the direction and get to out near Clint, Texas?
Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. Then on page 9 on the reference to the old woman, Greg Lucas stopped the tape at 12:11 p.m., is that correct, according to that transcript?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. And then it is picked back up at what time on page 10?
A. It’s started back again at 12:16 p.m.
Q. All right. Where were you-all at 12:16 p.m.?
A. I think this was just prior to our stopping to have lunch. I don’t know specifically where we were at that particular point.
Q. Then he stops. At the next reference to a time is stopped at 12:19?
A. Yes.
Q. And then the next time it’s picked up is at 1:35 p.m.? Is that the lunch break there?
A. Yes, sir, from 12:19 to 1:35 would be the lunch break. 1:35 is when we were approaching the Airway exit and that’s where the Chevron truck stop is.
Q. That’s when you were on your way back out to the west side and Trans Mountain road to go into the
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Area to look for the body, supposed body out by Trans Mountain Road?
Yes. This is the information provided to us by Henry in reference to the case that I couldn’t remember before. Elizabeth Allen was the name of the individual in that case that went missing. He was giving us information about someone he had picked up at that particular truck stop, so that’s why the tape starts at that particular location.
MR. MOODY: All right. No further questions.
MR. PONTON: We have no more, Your Honor.
THE COURT: May this officer be excused?
MR. PONTON: Yes.
MR. MOODY: Yes.
THE COURT: Thank you, Officer Flynn. You may be excused. Go back to your business.
Who will be your next witness Mr. Moody?
MR. MOODY: Detective Benito Perez.
THE COURT: Detective Perez, were you sworn in this morning?
MR. PEREZ: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Thank you, sir. Have a seat, please.
MR. PEREZ: Thank you.
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BENITO PEREZ, JR.,
Having been previously duly sworn by the court to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, was examined and testified as follows:
BY MR. MOODY:
Q. All right. Would you state your name, sir?
A. Benito Perez, Jr.
Q. How are you employed?
A. By the city of El Paso as a police officer.
Q. How long have you been so employed?
A. It will be about 16 years now.
Q. What division do you work in?
A. I’m currently assigned to the crimes against person division.
Q. Were you the chief investigative agent on the Librada Apodaca case?
A. Yes, sir, I was.
Q. It was primarily your case?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. In regards to suspect Henry Lee Lucas, when was the first time that you either spoke to Henry Lucas, the defendant in this case, or saw him in person?
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I believe it was September the 19th of 1984, if I’m correct.
Q. Where was that?
A. It was in Sierra Blanca, Texas.
Q. Had you had any conversations with him before that?
A. No, sir, I did not.
Q. By phone or otherwise?
A. That is correct.
Q. Where was the file itself? Who had custody, care of the file on Librada Apodaca case?
A. I did.
Q. Had you given out the information about the Librada Apodaca case to other officers of the El Paso Police Department, and if so, who else was privy to the case?
A. Basically myself and just officers - - very few officers in our division.
Q. Was Detective Uribe one of those?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was Detective Greg Lucas or Detective Curtis Flynn at all involved in that involved in that investigation of Henry Lucas and Librada Apodaca?
A. No, sir, they were not.
Q. Were they privy to the information of that
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file?
Not really.
Q. The only other person that might have had a working knowledge of the case was Sergeant Jimmy Apodaca?
A. Yes, sir. He was one of them, yes, sir.
Q. Now, when you went to talk to Henry Lee Lucas in this case in Sierra Blanca, Texas, do you recall approximately what time you arrived in Sierra Blanca?
A. I believe it was somewhere around 3:00 p.m. that afternoon.
Q. Why was it that you went to Sierra Blanca?
A. If I recall correctly, Sergeant Apodaca was contacted by Lieutenant Jerry Smith of the Odessa Police Department. He stated that he had information for us from Henry Lucas regarding our - - this one particular case that we were working on.
Q. Were arrangements made so that you-all had an opportunity to interview the defendant in this case?
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Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. Approximately what time was it that you got a chance to first see and speak to Henry Lee Lucas?
A. If I recall correctly, I believe it was 4:55 p.m. If I may refer to my notes, I could probably be more accurate.
Q. All right. That would be fine. What time was it, then, that you initially saw and spoke to Henry Lucas?
A. I have in my notes as 4:40 p.m. the 19th of September, 1984.
Q. That would be in Sierra Blanca, Texas?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. Was anyone present with you during this interview?
A. Just myself, Sergeant Apodaca and Henry Lee Lucas.
Q. Were any of the Texas Rangers or other people traveling with Henry Lucas present in the interview room with you and Sergeant Apodaca?
A. No, they were not.
Q. Did you brief those people at all on the details of the Librada Apodaca case before speaking to Henry Lucas?
A. No, I did not.
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Q. Would you describe the room in which the interview occurred?
A. It was an office area to their Sierra Blanca County Jail. I would say about maybe 15 feet wide and approximately 50 to 60 feet long. If I recall correctly, it was two or three desks, plenty of chairs, good lighting. But a lot of like desk type were there, also. Had one door that led to, I guess it was, their interview room over there, their conference room, I should say.
Q. Okay. Would you describe the lighting and ventilation of the room?
A. It was well lit, ventilation was good.
Q. Before beginning the interview, did you introduce yourself to the defendant?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. Did you warn him of his rights?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. I show you a card here. Was it the standard card used by the district attorney’s office, El Paso County, Texas, that you carry with you?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. All right. Would you just read for the record the rights that you read to Henry Lee Lucas prior to interviewing him?
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I had Henry, of course sign it after it was read to him and basically it’s four paragraphs.
Paragraph number 1. You have the right to have a lawyer present to advise you either prior to any questioning or during any questioning.
Paragraph 2: If you are unable to employ a lawyer, you have the right to have a lawyer appointed to counsel with you prior to or during any questioning.
Paragraph 3: You have the right to remain silent and not make any statement at all and that any statement you make may and probably will be used as evidence against you at your trial and that any statement you make may be used as evidence against you in court.
Paragraph number 4: You have the right to terminate the interview at any time.
And, of course, Mr. Lucas signed it and the time is on the card itself.
Q. All right. Now, did you ask Mr. Lucas if he understood his rights?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. How did he respond to that?
A. He responded yes, he did.
Q. Did you ask him if he wanted to waive those
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rights or give those rights up and talk to you freely and voluntarily?
Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. How did he respond to that?
A. He responded yes, he was willing to talk to us.
Q. Did you threaten him, coerce him or intimidate him in any way to obtain a statement from him?
A. No, sir, we did not.
Q. Did you promise him anything in exchange for giving such a statement?
A. No, sir, we did not.
Q. Did he ever request an attorney?
A. No, he did not.
Q. Then you - - After warning him of his rights and after him waiving those rights, what did you do?
A. We discussed - - Well, I asked him if he had any knowledge of this particular crime. He said yeah, you know, just a brief interview, and he gave me certain information which I wrote down.
Q. Okay. Was this interview - - Was this initial interview tape recorded or - -
A. No.
Q. It was not taped?
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No, it was not.
Q. Just an oral interview between you and the defendant?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. Sergeant Apodaca was also present?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. Now, what information, as best you can remember - - You said you took notes?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. Of this interview - - did you discuss with Henry Lucas at this oral interview what led to the tape recording in Sierra Blanca?
A. I reduced the interview to my notebook in the form of notes. Basically started out by asking Mr. Lucas when he thought he arrived in El Paso.
Q. Okay. What did he respond to that?
A. Stated somewhere between 7:00 or 8:00 p.m., as far as he could recall, and that after he got into El Paso, the city limits of El Paso, he cruised or went looking around neighborhoods until approximately 10:00 p.m.
Of course, these were approximate times that he was giving us. And then from there, he described the interior of the residence.
Q. But did you ask him about, then, what did
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the residence look like?
Well, what had happened is he started talking about this lady that he had axed, and then he stated that when he entered the residence he was - - or the lady was in the master bedroom and the axe was there in the bedroom itself and then - -
Q. Wait a minute. Going back - - I forgot a point here.
You said that he told you he initially go in El Paso around 7.00 that evening, that he cruised the neighborhood and he indicated, what, he entered the residence around 10:00 p.m.?
Yes, sir.
Q. Sometime around that time period?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Did he indicate to you at approximately what time the murder would have been committed?
It would have been shortly after 10:00 p.m. and another note that I have, he stated that the kitchen door was open, he entered the residence and he saw the light inside the house or the rear of the house.
Q. Was the time, let’s say, 10:30 p.m. or so consistent with the time of death of Librada Apodaca on the 27th of May, 1983, based on your independent
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investigation?
That would be fairly accurate.
Q. And then you said that he mentioned a light was on?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. Had that also been confirmed by other evidence that you had in the case?
A. Yes.
Q. The light being on?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. And then where - - Did you say where he said the initial attack occurred?
A. He stated he went towards the back of the house, and the lady was in the bedroom and she came out of the bed and brushed against him and stated that the axe rubbed against his leg or fell on his leg and he picked up the axe. And then - -
Q. Now, was the master bedroom, based on your investigation of the crime scene, did it confirm that was the probable place where the initial confrontation occurred?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. Then what did you ask him?
A. When I asked him what happened then, he stated that the lady continued running towards the
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Living room, and at this time he stated that he had - - he hit her with a real good chop toward the center portion of her back which then plunged towards her and she fell on top of a small table. And apparently he stated that the table was in the living room and then, of course, he stated that he did a job on her or he chopped her up pretty good and she laid on the floor.
Q. Had it been determined at the crime scene that a small table and been broken there near where the body was found?
A. Well, actually it was like a stool, a piano stool, which would be, I guess, consistent with a small table.
Q. And then, of course, the actual point where he said that he had killed her being there in that room, the living room area, was that consistent with the point where she was murdered?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. What did you ask him next?
A. Well, I asked if he could describe the lady, and he stated that she was between 50 and 60 years of age. She had black hair and was kind of skinny to medium build.
And he said that after she laid on the floor,
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The living room floor that he had sex with her and he thought that he had sex after she had passed away, but he wasn’t quite clear on that point. Then afterwards he went rummaging or looking through the house and stated he found some silver coins and a radio. He thought the radio was maybe 18 by 12 inches.
At that time he felt that afterwards, after he left the residence he had gone on towards San Antonio.
Q. In regards to the silver coins that he described to you in that initial interview, did you later - - did that later lead you to information that silver coins were, in fact, missing?
A. Yes, sir, it led us to the fact that other members of the family recall seeing silver coins and that if I recall correctly, she was - - the lady was saving the silver coins because she was going to take a trip to Las Vegas, Nevada. She wanted to use them there. I believe that’s where it came from. And if I recall, family members stated she kept them in a small like tin or silver box in her closet.
Q. But this was information that you did not have at the time when you interviewed him?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
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Q. You had to go back and reinterview them based on what he told you?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. Then what did you talk about?
A. Then we asked Henry if he recalled what the lady was wearing and he said as far as he could recall, she had on a pink slip and he felt she had on white panties, the old style or the style that was - - elderly ladies used to wear. And he mentioned something about a robe, that the lady had on a robe, but he wasn’t quite clear as to the color or type of robe.
And he stated that after he had sex with the lady, then he washed up in the bathroom and as far as he could recall, he left the axe either in the same bedroom or the bedroom from where the lady had come out of.
Q. Did there appear from the crime scene that activity had occurred in that bedroom?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. Also confirming his statement on that?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. How close was he on the items that she was wearing?
A. He was right on the pink slip. And the
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Panties, if I recall correctly, he was correct about that, also. The robe, I remember or recall not about a robe, houserobe or smock or something like that. But I myself, I’m not really sure.
Q. Do you recall anything else that you talked about in that initial interview?
A. Yes. Well, asked him about the description of the residence and he stated that it had a porch, the house did or what he called a carport or a half porch. He mentioned that it was a half porch, and the residence was - - the texture of the building was similar to adobe.
Q. How close was he on that point?
A. Very accurate. Right on it.
Q. What else did you-all talk about?
A. That was really about it until we began the taped interview.
Q. All right. The purpose of the initial interview, what is the purpose of the initial interview before you start actually getting either a written or a tape recorded or videotaped confession?
A. Well, see, if we are talking about this particular crime that we are investigating and to ascertain whether you know, he wasn’t referring to some other crime or some other city or some other
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the knowledge that he has regarding this crime. And as go into the taped interview, well, I’m still taking notes to see if he is still consistent with what he told me in the prior interview and he is not changing his story once we started the taped interview.
Q. All right. So approximately how long did the oral interview last?
A. Well, I have my notes. We began the taped interview at 5:20 p.m., so 40 minutes, I guess.
Q. And then a taped interview begun?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
(State’s Exhibit marked, s-4.)
Q. (BY MR. MOODY) Before we go into this, not all of the information that he gave you was absolutely correct, was it?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. One of the major points, the points of entry in the case?
A. I personally believe he was wrong in that area.
Q. Did you try to change his mind on that point?
A. No, sir.
Q. In other words, tell him, “Well, no, no,
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Henry. You didn’t go in through the door. You went in through a window”?
Everything that we said during the interview, taped interview and while I was taking the notes was neither confirmed nor denied to Henry. It was just an interview where I was taking down the notes.
Q. Was that information that he was supplying to you?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. Now, I’ll show you what has been marked - - we have marked it here as State’s Exhibit Number 4 and do you recognize this tape recording?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Is that the tape recording that you-all - - that you held with defendant, Henry Lucas, in this case?
A. yes, sir.
Q. On the 19th of September of 1984 in Sierra Blanca, Texas?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. And again, in this you played it on a tape recorder?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. Were you capable of playing the tape
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recorder?
Yes, sir, I was.
Q. Was it in - - Was the tape recorder in proper working order?
A. Yes, it was.
Q. All right. And did you warn the defendant of his rights on this tape recording?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And did you identify the parties? You know, did you identify who was speaking and can you identify the voices on the tape recording?
A. I can identify the voices on the tape recording. I believe I may have started the tape before my voice was able to clearly identify itself on it, but I can identify my voice.
Q. You can identify your voice. Whose voices are on the tape?
A. Basically myself and Henry Lucas.
Q. All right. And have you listened to this tape recently?
A. Yes, sir, I have.
Q. Has anything been added to it or deleted from it or is it in the same condition it was when you took it?
A. It appears to be in the same condition when
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I took it.
Q. Nothing - - It does not appear it has been tampered with in any way?
A. No, sir, it does not.
Q. All right. We will let you listen to it again in Court just to be sure.
(At this time, State’s Exhibit Number 4 was played with the following transcription:)
Mr. Perez: “Present in this room in the Sierra Blanca County Jail is Sergeant Jimmy Apodaca and Henry Lee Lucas. Before we begin the interview, I would like to read the rights to Henry Lee Lucas.
“You have the right to have a lawyer present to advise you either prior to any questioning or during any questioning. If you are unable to employ a lawyer, you have the right to have a lawyer appointed to counsel with you prior to or during any questioning and if - - and you have the right to remain silent and not make any statement at all and that any statement you make may and probably will be used in evidence against you at your trials and that any statement you make may be used as evidence against you in court. You have the right to terminate the interview at any time.’
“Mr. Lucas, do you understand your rights?”
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Henry Lucas: “Yes. Yes, I understand them.”
Mr. Perez: “You can proceed with the interview, Mr. Lucas.”
Henry Lucas: “Well, it starts back before I was arrested on the gun charge there in Stoneburg.
Mr. Perez: “What day was that, do you remember?”
Henry Lucas: “That was on the 11th of June, 1983. And this case, if I recall right, would have been anywhere from the 5th of May until the 6th of May. I might be off a day or two, but I don’t think so. This was when I was coming back from Tucson, Arizona. I had been out there running around and I came back to El Paso and left Interstate 10.
“The best I can remember, I went north off there. I could be wrong on it, but it seems like I turned north off of Interstate 10 And I traveled about 30, 30 minutes off of Interstate 10 driving around in different neighborhoods and I ended up on this one street, So I decided I would park the car and get out and walk.
“So I over to the side of the street and parked and started walking up the streets looking for people that wasn’t home, and I come up onto this
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One house and I could see a light on in it, you know, and I couldn’t see nobody moving around in the house nowhere so I figured they just left the light on for security.
“So I went on around the back of the house and went in the little walkway there, behind the house and went up, I think, two steps or something like that and went into the kitchen door. I tried to see if it was open. It was open, so I went on in. And I got through into the living room and I started to look around the living room and I heard a noise and so I took and I went to where I heard a noise from, which was the bedroom, and as soon as I walked in the door of the bedroom, why, the woman jumped by the bed and run and she run right by me.
“And when she did, why, as she was going by me, she pushed me back against the edge of the wall where this axe fell over and I grabbed the axe and took after her, you know. And I caught her just before she got to the front door of the house and when she did, I hit her pretty close to centerways of the back with the axe and she screamed, I mean, as far as screaming, and she fell towards the center part of the living room. And when she did, I hit her, I think, four, maybe five times after that with the
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axe.
“And there was blood spewed on me and on her, and I want to, you know, where’s her body. I took and had sex with it after that and I went on back into the bedroom, you know. I still had the axe in my hand and I got to thinking, you know, I said, ‘Well, I better wash up, you know, before I got back out onto the street.’
“So I went into the - - I turned out of the bedroom and went on back in towards the back of the house to a bathroom there and I washed my hands and I washed my face off and my arms and dried off on a towel that was hanging there on sort of a rack like and turned around and walked on back into the bedroom. And I started going through the drawers and dressers and stuff in there and went into a closet and looked in it and I found this old silver that was there, and so I took it. Her purse was over sort of beside the bed on an old, I guess you would call it, nightstand and I took money out of it.
“And after I took the money, I walked on back to the other side of the house and went through another bedroom. And then I went from there, I went back into the dining room. I looked around in there for some old china and I couldn’t find any. And this
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Radio was sitting in there on a - - sort of a table, and I took it and there was another - - a couple other items I took it and there was another - - a couple other items that I took out of the house which was antique items.
“And I went from there, I went back into the living room, and I think I checked her to see if she was dead and she was so I turned around and I went on back out through the back of the house and walked on down - - through there. And after I got outside, I turned this radio on to see if it played and it did.
“I went on down the street playing the radio until I got to my car. And I got in and drove from there on back back around through to - - I can’t think of that road now, but there is a road that goes back up sort of - - well, the same road that goes all the way across the mountain out there in, well, I guess it would be on the Mexico side. I ain’t sure, but I think it is or just before you get to the Mexico side. There is a road that goes through there and goes all the way back up across the mountain back over there to an Air Force base. I was back over in that direction. I come out.”
Mr. Perez: “Do you remember the clothing that the lady had” - -
Mr. Lucas: “Yeah, it was a pink slip and an
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old pair, well, I call them an old pair. It’s an old-fashioned pair of white panties.”
Mr. Perez: “What did you do with the white panties?”
Mr. Lucas: “I think I just took them off and threw them down there on the floor. I believe I did. And she had an old, looked like a white bra, but I don’t know. I don’t think I ever took it off of her, as far as her bra, just her slip and housecoat, I don’t think I took it off. I think I more or less pushed it up, just a little bit in the front. I don’t think she had anything on her feet, as far as her feet were concerned.”
Mr. Perez: “Did you wear any gloves?”
Mr. Lucas: “Yeah, I had rubber - - these standard rubber surgical gloves on and I had tore one of those when I was hitting her with the axe, split open. I took those rubber gloves back and throwed them down next to where the car was at.”
Mr. Perez: “Where did you buy those
Mr. Lucas: “I didn’t. I steal them out of doctor’s offices.”
Mr. Perez: “When you were arrested, did you still have those particular gloves?”
Mr. Lucas: “That, I don’t know whether they
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were still in the car or not because the car was left up in San Johns, New Mexico.”
Mr. Perez: “The same car you were driving, you left it in San Johns, New Mexico?”
Mr. Lucas: “Yeah, I blew the engine up in it. They may still have still been in the car. I took my clothes out or took some of them out, anyway, and took them back to Stoneburg with me. I had a minister come there and pick me up to go back to Stoneburg. And when I got arrested, well, the sheriff took all my clothes and everything I had.
Mr. Perez: “This would conclude the interview with Mr. Henry Lee Lucas. The time now is 5:30 p.m. The interview began at 5:20 p.m.”
Q. (BY MR. MOODY) Is that the tape recording?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. And you did not detect any additions or deletions in listening to it?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Now, after this interview concluded at, what, approximately 5:30 p.m. Is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. - - what did you-all do then?
A. Well, then we had another interview with Henry trying to establish some other details that he
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Had explained or said in the taped interview.
Do you want me to on or - -
Q. Yeah.
A. One of them I asked him if he could describe the bathroom. He stated that it was an old type bathroom with the bottoms like iron or cast iron of the bathtub. And then the towel that he had used was near the rack and, of course, the old silver. He felt it was about $80 worth of silver dollars, nickels that were in the metal box. And then he also stated that he had pulled the shades down to the side window of the master bedroom or the bedroom where the lady had come out of.
Q. All right. Had they been found in that pulled down position?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. Was his description of the bathroom basically correct?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. Did you have him draw a diagram of the house?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. There in Sierra Blanca?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
(State’s exhibit marked, s-5.)
Q. (BY MR. MOODY) All right. I show you what
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has been marked as State’s Exhibit 5 and ask you if that particular note tablet - - What is that note tablet?
We asked Henry if he could describe or draw a map of the interior of the residence, and he drew us a map of the house and, of course, had him sign it at the bottom of the drawing. And he also did a little brief diagram of the truck stop.
Q. Did he do this, these drawings while he was in Sierra Blanca that afternoon?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. At what point in the interview did he do those drawings?
A. This was after we had finished the tape interview and we were still in that, I guess, oral interview.
Q. Now, the first page of State’s Exhibit 5 is his rendition of the house?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. That’s correct?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. And page 2 is what?
A. His - - The top portion of the drawing is the drawing of the interior of the bathroom. And the second part is where the front of the house was
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Or the exterior or the front part of the house was and in relationship to where he had parked his vehicle to the residence.
Q. All right. And page 3 and page 4 are very scanty diagrams, but what are they of?
A. Well, basically he was trying to draw a map of where Interstate 10 goes through El Paso and he calls it, “over the mountains,” but it’s through El Paso around the mountains. And he himself drew the interstate and the mountain and where it says Interstate 10 and in relationship to where the truck stop is.
Q. Okay. So what else, then, did you discuss with him in this post-tape recorded session?
A. Well, I asked him if he could more or less tell us a distance from the truck to - - towards the residence, and he put in, he stated he thought it was about the fourth exit from the truck stop or maybe one half mile to two miles from Interstate 10.
And then we asked him, “Well, can you describe the area, and he said, well, he says, “near Interstate 10 there is a shopping mall there” - - Excuse me - - “there is old style bars close to the residence,” and he thought that he had passed a drive-in - - what he called a bank drive-in or a
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Drive-in bank. And then asked him, “well, is there any other” - -
Q. Is there any like a shopping type center located fairly near the Apodaca residence?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. Where is that located?
A. Where you have the K Mart and right across the street from K Mart, which would be, I would imagine, maybe a mile from her residence and that is in the same immediate area, and there is a - -
Q. What about old-style bars or a drive-in bank? How close are those to the residence?
A. The drive-in bank is there on Alameda not too far from Zaragoza and Zaragoza and Alameda would put it about two or three city blocks from Mrs. Apodaca’s residence. And the old-style bars are about three or four blocks west of Zaragoza on Alameda would give the appearance of old-style bars.
Q. What else did he describe for you in the approximate are of the crime scene?
A. He said there was fields near the residence and he had to cross a bridge with the river going underneath the bridge and after you pass the tracks or the railroad tracks. And he felt that after you crossed the railroad tracks, it would be, oh, about a
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Fourth of a mile distance where you would turn off that street onto the other street which would take you towards the residence.
Then he described - - Well, I asked him: “Can you describe the buildings around here?” And he said, “Yeah, there are some tin buildings,” which are close to the tracks which are close to the river. And then he said there were some pipes like you use in a steel mill also alongside of the railroad tracks.
Q. Now, would you, if you had to come - - you were heading south on Zaragoza to get to 144 Irma, would you have to cross a bridge with a river or canal?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. Is it past the railroad tracks?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. Are there some tin buildings and cement pipes - -
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. - - in the area by the railroad tracks?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. All of this you intended to confirm based on your observations in the area?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. Did some of you have to go back and actually
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look and see if those things were there or did you know some of the things were actually there?
There were certainly items I didn’t really know about like the tin buildings with the cement or steel pipes. He would describe them with his hand motion and saying it was fairly large pipes. And I myself was not aware of them until we had to go back and look at that area again and then we discovered they were just off of Zaragoza Road maybe a city to two city blocks east of Zaragoza just on the other side of the railroad tracks.
Q. All right. So in this postinterview, post-tape recorded interview, the defendant did give you information that you were not aware of that you later confirmed to be true?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. It did tend to corroborate the belief he was familiar with the area?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. What else did he talk about about the area? Do you recall if anything else - -
A. It was really about it as far as the area that he could recall. We did feel fairly certain that he could find it.
Q. All right. Did you talk about anything else
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after trying to go over the idea, you know, of whether or not you could find the residence as the way he was describing this area to you?
Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. The area where the crime occurred. Did you discuss anything else after that?
A. Well, he talked about some other cases that apparently he was familiar with, but I personally had no knowledge of those other cases. We asked him if he could come to El Paso to take us to the residence or show us to the residence.
Q. All right. And did he say that he would do that?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. Did he do this one case?
A. No, he said he would come to El Paso, but he would only work on this one case and he wouldn’t - - he didn’t want to discuss any other cases and just take us to this one crime scene or the to this house. No other - - He didn’t want us to talk about any other cases, just this one here.
THE COURT: Mr. Moody, if we come to a place where we can stop for the day?
MR. MOODY: This is as good place as any.
THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, let’s call
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It quits for the day. We will be back at - - start at 9:00 tomorrow morning.
(An evening recess was taken.)
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Editor's note: this is the official transcript and it runs verbatim, as the archive's rule for court records requires; nothing has been summarised or cut. One mechanical change was made and nothing else: the dashes that mark a broken-off or self-corrected sentence are printed as a spaced double hyphen, which is the court reporter's own convention, because the archive's house style does not use em dashes. The transcript file supplied to the archive is no longer available here to re-check that substitution against. It is a different case from the one already on this site: TRANSCRIPTS FROM THE TRIAL OF HENRY LEE LUCAS covers Clay County and the 54th District at Waco, while this is El Paso County and the 120th Judicial District. Henry Lee Lucas is recorded in this archive with eleven convictions, around three of which are regarded as credible, against some six hundred confessions. That gap is what this hearing was convened to examine, and reading the questions put to the officers here is the clearest account of it the archive holds. Nothing a witness says in a transcript is a finding; it is what that person said under oath on that day.