PHONE CONVERSATION WITH HENRY LEE LUCAS AND OTTIS TOOLE

Transcribed for Serial Killer Magazine BY Dion Brass - Art by JEFFERY COX

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Henry Lee Lucas: “…anybody might say, or anybody might do.”

Ottis Toole: “Yeah.”

Lucas: “You know that.”

Toole: “Yeah.”

Lucas: “And, I feel, myselfnow, I don’t know whether this is your feeling, but I feel if we are honest… that when we leave here”

Toole: “Yeah.”

Lucas: “Wherever we go, we’ll still be together.”

Toole: “Oh yeah.”

Lucas: “And, it’s your decision, uh”

Toole: “Sure will, ‘cause I think about you all the time.”

Lucas: “Well, I do too. I’ve got your picture down here in my cell.”

Toole: “Well, I got yours, too.”

Lucas: “So, uh… You missed, uhI mean, it’s a friendship Ottis, there’s not, uhh”

Toole: “You need to be talkin’ louder, ya keep fadin’ out.”

Lucas: “Uh, it’s the telephone, really. Uh, what I’m tryna say to you, is I want you to be honest.”

Toole: “Yeah.”

Lucas: “And I want you to tell the truth… Those things have got to be done... And also, if you wantlike I saidif you wanna denounce the hands of god, the devil; in other words, it‘s your decision. And that decision, if you wanna do it”

Toole: “Yeah.”

Lucas: “Will cost you your life.”

Toole: “Yeah.”

Lucas: “Now, you fully understand that?”

Toole: “Oh yeah.”

Lucas: “Now, like I said: I’ve told them what I’ve done”

Toole: “Yeah.”

Lucas: “And only what I’ve done. And I told the police [1:32 INDECIPHERABLE] that, I told ‘em where we’ve been. And the things that, uh, I’ve done myself, I’ve admitted to it.

Toole: “Yeah.”

Lucas: “And, uh”

Toole: “You’re fadin’ out again Henry.”

Lucas: “Ahh… Has, ahh, Terry told you what all the circumstances is?”

Toole: “Yeah.”

Lucas: “I mean, you know that I wanna make sure you understand.”

Toole: “Well, I ain’t got nothin’ left no more, you know.”

Lucas: “Well, I ain’t either. I mean”

Toole: “Well, I didn’t do it, you know.”

Lucas: “Well, you didn’t do any of it?”

Toole: “I said I didn’t do it to certain extents.”

Lucas: “Well, I know that. You see, ahh, if you admitted to something you didn‘t do, it‘s wrong. You understand that. What I want you to do is just to tell the truth. If I was invoinvolved in something, you tell the truth, you understand? Don‘t hold back because of me, and I‘m not gonna hold back because of you.”

Toole: “How many people did you kill, Henry?”

Lucas: “A hundred and fifty.”

Toole: “A hundred and fifty?”

Lucas: “Yeah, between a hundred and fifty, a hundred and sixty.”

Toole: “Between a hundred and fifty, a hundred and sixty?”

Lucas: “Yeah.”

Toole: “By yourself?”

Lucas: “No, not by myself. And, uh…”

Toole: “I was with you on some of them, myself. Wasn’t I?”

Lucas: “If you want to admit to that, yes.”

Toole: “Yeah.”

Lucas: “It’s up to you. Like I said, I haven‘t involved you.”

Toole: “Yeah.”

Lucas: “What I’ve done, what I admitted to… was what I wanted to do.”

Toole: “Yeah.”

Lucas: “Y’know? And there’s one person involvedthey’re the only reason that I’ve ever come forward with what I’ve said.”

Toole: “Yeah.”

Lucas: “And”

Toole: “It gut-bothered you, didn’t it Henry?”

Lucas: “It’s not only got to the botherin’ me, it’s who done it. And, uh… I‘m not gonna rest ‘til I know… what‘s involved and who‘s involved in it.”

Toole: “Well, I’m involved all the way, Henry.”

Lucas: “Then I want to know that.”

Toole: “Huh?”

Lucas: “Then I want to know that.”

Toole: “I am. I was involvedI was involved all the way with you.”

Lucas: “Alright. And I want you to tell the sheriff the truth. That‘s what I want you to do. I also want you to give out descriptions; as to who and where. And if you kif you know where this girl‘s at, I want you to admit to it.”

Toole: “Yeah. You know I was doin‘ lots of that way before I met you.”

Lucas: “Yeah, I know that… I know that.”

Toole: “I been doin’ that since I was about fourteen years old.”

Lucas: “You know you’re on recording now?”

Toole: “I know that, too.”

Lucas: “Alright. So… I’ve been doin’ it for a long time. It’s not just, uh, just that, but it‘s”

Toole: “Well, I don’t care what you done, I still care about you, the waythe way it goes.”

Lucas: “Well, I know that, and, uh”

2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEtY6WSFw6I

Lucas: “… of course eventually, we’ll probably end up at the same place.”

Toole: “We might.”

Lucas: “Mmm, there ain’t no doubt on that. ‘Cause I know, uh”

Toole: “Unless we end up in the electric chair first.”

Lucas: “Well, they’ve always got, ahhregardless of what you, you plead guilty to. If you get charged with capital murder, you get charged with it.”

Toole: “Yeah.”

Lucas: “I mean, that’s, uh, understanding before you ever get involved.”

Toole: “Yeah.”

Lucas: “And, I know I’ve got capital murder on me. I’m facin’ death… and I don’t care… okay”

Toole: “Well, I, I… I’m comin’ forward to sayin’ anyone I’ve done that I can remember, though, you know.”

Lucas: “Well, that’s what I want you to do. And…”

Toole: “Well, it don’t make a difference what you say, Henry, I still care about you. The way it goes.”

Lucas: “Well, I know. Uh, there’s somethin’ that I’ve got to ask you.”

Toole: “Yeah.”

Lucas: “Now, the organization we belong to”

Toole: “Yeah.”

Lucas: “You know what, uhwhat the circumstances is there.”

Toole: “Yeah.”

Lucas: “Alright. Now, when I start telling’ them full and complete”

Toole: “Yeah.”

Lucas: “It’s gonna cost me my life.”

Toole: “Y”

Lucas: “You understand that?”

Toole: “Yeah.”

Lucas: “And it’s also gonna cost you your life.”

Toole: “Oh yeah.”

Lucas: “So… I just want to know that you are a person, and this has to be Ottis Toole talkin’, not somebody else.”

Toole: “That’s right, it is me.”

Lucas: “So, I just want you to feel that my feelings for you is just like it always been.”

Toole: “You know it’sHow you knowHow you can tell if it’s me talkin’ or not?”

Lucas: “I can hear you already.”

Toole: “Huh?”

Lucas: “I can hear you already.”

Toole: “Can you?”

Lucas: “Yeah.”

Toole: “You know what you told me that’ll make you madder than anything?”

Lucas: “Yeah I do.”

Toole: “[1:49 INDECIPHERABLE] make you mad, won’t it?”

Lucas: “Yep, it will. And”

Toole: “See, I couldn’t remember that, could I?”

Lucas: “No.”

Toole: [laughs]

Lucas: “I just wanted you to know the truth. That‘s what I want you to know.”

Toole: “Yeah.”

Lucas: “And… I think that if I can help them in any way to solve what’s been… solved”

Toole: “Well, the same thing with me, Henry. Although if you can tell the truth for me about it, go tell the truth of it. Don’t hold back.”

Lucas: “Well, alright.”

Toole: “Huh?”

Lucas: “I’ll do that, and, uh, I feel that, uh, you can do the same with me.”

Toole: “Yeah, I sure can.”

Lucas: “Because each one of us has donated our lives to one thing, and there ain’t nothin’ in this world gonna change that.”

Toole: “Yeah.”

Lucas: “So, uh… if there’s any information you can give to the sheriff about this girl, or have any idea, I”

Toole: “I took [2:51 INDECIPHERABLE] mini-market [INDECIPHERABLE] mini-market.”

Lucas: “Well I guess this is what you call a mimini-market. I don’t know for sure. Uh… it concerns a grey car with a red top on it.”

Toole: “Grey car with a red top…”

Lucas: “Yeah, and, uh”

Toole: “That don’t hit my mind, it don’t.”

Lucas: “It, uh… the girl, I think’s about twenty years old. Something like that.”

Toole: “Yeah, you need to talk louder. You’re fadin’ out again.”

Lucas: “I said it’s a girl about twenty years old. And it‘s across from a school. You ever been around one like that? This is on Highway 35just off of Highway 35.”

Toole: “And that’s, uh, comin’ from Dallas?”

Lucas: “Yeah.”

Toole: “I can’t picture it in my mind right now. Maybe it’ll come to me later.”

Lucas: “Let’s see: this is what? Uh, June?”

Toole: “Huh?”

Officer in background: “June of ‘82.”

Lucas: “June of ‘82.”

Toole: “June of ‘82?”

Lucas: “Yeah.”

Toole: “… June of ‘82... Well, I‘ve been out of the city several times, you know.”

Lucas: “Yeah, I know you have. Uh, I thought you would know”

Toole: “Every time I saw people I would go take off two or three days, I would fly across country, you know.”

Lucas: “Yeah, I know. Well, that’s the same way I done, you know.”

Toole: “Instead of drivin’ the car, I would leave the car, you know, and fly under a different name.”

Lucas: “Yeah.”

Toole: “Sometime I didn’t even need to do that, I’d just buy a ticket and fly.”

Lucas: “Yeah.”

Toole: “But [4:29 INDECIPHERABLE] I just, I just bought the ticket and got on the jet, you know.”

Lucas: “Yeah. Uh… was you ever around, uh… uh, let‘s see: what is it? Around Round Cockor around Round Street”

Toole: “Round Woods?”

Lucas: “Yeah.”

Toole: “You need to talk louder again, you’re fadin’ out.”

Lucas: “[to officer] Round what?”

Officer: “Round Rock.”

Lucas: “[to Toole] Round Rock.”

Toole: “Maybe, there’s so many of ‘em, you know. I don’t know the name of all them towns, Henry, you know.”

Lucas: “Yeah.”

Toole: “You know, you can take me in circles all day long, and I wouldn’t know which way I’m goin’.”

Lucas: “[laughs] I know that. Uh”

Toole: “Just like sometimes you’d tell me you were in another town; well shoot! we still in the same town.”

Lucas: “Ha ha. Yeah.”

Toole: “You would do that to me, too.”

Lucas: “Yeah, I done that.”

Toole: “Take me in circles.”

Lucas: “Well, I had to do it really, because of, uh, certain circumstances, which I’m sure you’ve, uh, been in up in Delaware, and I’m sure you’ve been in when you was up in, uh, uh, by that lake up in uhI mean not the lake, but up inby that canal up in uh, uh, the edge of Maryland.”

Toole: “Yeah.”

Lucas: “Do you remember what happened up there?”

Toole: “Yeah.”

Lucas: “Well, the same thing is liable to happen here that happened there.”

Toole: “Yeah.”

Lucas: “Uh”

Toole: “We had toWe had to run off and leave the truck ‘cause somebody, uh, got out on us.”

Lucas: “Yeah, I know it. I just want you to know”

Toole: “They started the truck up on us.”

Lucas: “Yeah, I know it. But I just want you to know what the circumstances is.”

Toole: “Yeah.”

Lucas: “Because any time we walk out on that street from now on”

Toole: “Yeah.”

Lucas: “That’s the way it’s gonna be, it‘swe’re gonna be known.”

Toole: “What if something does happen to me like that, Henry? I done lived my life, anyhow.”

Lucas: “Well, I have too. And, uh… But I didn’t wanna involve you, unless you personally told me to do it.”

Toole: “Yeah.”

Lucas: “That’s something I didn’t wanna do. So, either you tell me: I go ahead. Then I go ahead.”

Toole: “Yeah. Go ahead and tell them the thing you want to tell them, Henry.”

Lucas: “Alright. But I don’t wantlike I say, nowI don’t want you to come back ten, ten days later and say ‘well, I didn’t say it’.”

Toole: “No. I want you to go tell ‘em everything you wanna tell ’em and be done with it.”

Lucas: “Alright.”

3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSh4gg1O2Po

Lucas: “…And, they treatin’ you alright down there?”

Toole: “Yeah, thuh, they treatin’ me alright down here.”

Lucas: “You tell ‘em if they don’t, I’m gonna come down there myself.”

Toole: “You gonna come down here yourself?”

Lucas: “That‘s right. Is Terry around there?”

Toole: “Yeah, he’s sittin’ right here, in front of me.”

Lucas: “You tell him what I said.”

Toole: [laughs]

Terry: “I’m listenin’ to you Henry. Go ahead.”

Lucas: “’Cause I just wantas long as he’s honest with you, Terry, that’s what I want.”

Toole: “Yeah.”

Terry: “There it is. [0:27 INDECIPHERABLE due to technical interference]”

Toole: “I keep holdin’ back ‘cause I don’t want touh, I really don’t want to burn you, Henry.”

Lucas: “You can’t burn me! There ain‘t no way possible you can burn me.”

Toole: “Well, if you cook, I’m gonna cook with you”

Lucas: “You know. Because I’ve already got the death penalty. I mean there ain’t no, uh, jokes about that”

Toole: “Yeah.”

Lucas: “And I don’t care. I told the press I don’t care. I’ve told everybody I’ve come into contact with: I don’t care.”

Toole: “Yeah.”

Lucas: “But I want, mainly, to stop other people from doin’ what we’ve done.”

Toole: “You know I still worked for Betty, I did, up ‘til I got put in jail with you, there.”

Lucas: “You did?”

Toole: “Yeah.”

Lucas: “She’s mad at me.”

Toole: “Well, I can’t help it, I… I’m mad at you a certain extent, you know, but, uh… I just wish that was one thing you didn‘t do, you know.”

Lucas: “Well, when it comes down to that certain party, I didn‘t do it.”

Toole: “Huh?”

Lucas: “When it comes down that one party, I didn’t do it.”

Toole: “You didn’t do it?”

Lucas: “No I didn’t. Now, you know who did, but I can’t, uh, can’t do anything about that”

Toole: “Yeah.”

Lucas: “’cause my hands are tied. What I’m after is the people themselves.”

Toole: “Yeah.”

Lucas: “And, uh… I wouldn’t’ve started this whole thing if it wasn’t for that.”

Toole: “Yeah.”

Lucas: “And, uh… until I find out who did, they’ll be mine. Not somebody else’s.”

Toole: “Yeah.”

Lucas: “And, uh… I live with it, as I had done it, because I’m responsible, because I brought her here.”

Toole: “Yeah.”

Lucas: “That makes me responsible. But, when it comes down to it I’m gonna get the person that did do it. ‘Cause there ain’t no way out for ‘em.”

Toole: “Yeah.”

Lucas: “You know, as long as we understand each other; as long as we know the truth about each other”

Toole: “Yeah.”

Lucas: “And that’s all I want.”

Toole: “That was prettythat was somethat was something [2:38 INDECIPHERABLE] together too, wasn’t it?”

Lucas: “Well, we’re gonna meet together.”

Toole: “Oh yeah.”

Lucas: “I’ve requested for us to.”

Toole: “Yeah.”

Lucas: “So we can sit down and go over details for ‘em. Give ‘em details.”

Toole: “Yeah.”

Lucas: “That’s my request, and the sheriff’ll tell you the same thing.”

Toole: “You know that I”

Lucas: “’Cause I want to do it, because there’s things I know, and things that you know, and that way we can put ‘em together and they can come up with the bodies, and stuff. That‘s what I want.”

Toole: “Yeah, ‘cause they scattered from herehere, in about forty-eight different states.”

Lucas: “Oh, I know. But, uh. But who’s gonna do it if we don’t? There ain’t nobody who’s gonna do it, unless we do it.”

Toole: “Yeah.”

Lucas: “So”

Toole: “I got one down here I wish I could come up with the body’s at, but I can’t come up with the body in my mind.”

Lucas: “Well, I gave ‘em eight that I had done; eight or nine, I don’t know which. In Florida.”

Toole: “You know, it really bothers me, too.”

Lucas: “Yeah, well, don’t let it bother you. That’s what they want it to do, is to bother you. Don‘t let it bother you. If you done something and you wanna confess to that, then you confess to it.”

Toole: “Yeah.”

Lucas: “But don’t depend on other people. Depend on yourself.”

Toole: “Yeah.”

Lucas: “And… that way there won’t be no hard feelings between yourself, ‘cause ifonce you get hard feelings on yourself, then you ain’t nothin’”

Toole: “Yeah.”
Lucas: “You gotta face it, and that’s the only person than can face it.”

Toole: “That’s right.”

Lucas: “And if there’s anything that I can do in order to help you find somebodyif you don’t know where it’s atthen ask me.”

Toole: “Well, you kept ukept up with it more than I did. I didn’t keep up with all that.”

Lucas: “Well, I had to. I’ve tried to give ‘em details”

Toole: “You’d take me in circles all day long, and I wouldn’t know where I’m at.”

Lucas: “[laughs] Well, I know that, and…”

Toole: “You know I know road-maps, but I don’t, uh, I don’t know the difference from one city to another city when it’s uh, in another, ’nother county, you know.

Lucas: “Yeah, I know that.”

Toole: “Another state, I mean.”

Lucas: “Yeah. But I think you know Florida as ‘bout as good as anyone around.”

Toole: “Yeah.”

Lucas: “And I think that you know that, uh, places that you and I have been in Florida, thatwe know that there’s people there”

Toole: “Yeah.”

Lucas: “But they’ve never been able to find ‘em.”

Toole: “Yeah.”

Lucas: “Just like there’s people here in Texas that they can’t find.”

Toole: “Yeah.”

Lucas: “There’s people in California that they can’t find. There‘s people all over that they can‘t find. And I‘ve tried to give ‘em details; I’ve tried to give ’em descriptions of every person that I can‘t pinpoint, I can‘t put my finger right on and say ‘that’s where she’s at.”

Toole: “Yeah.”

Lucas: “And, uh… I’ve give up to as high as two hundred descriptions…”

Toole: “Yeah.”

Lucas: “Of, uh, different people, and it’s been awkward; not something that’s make-believe or something that somebody’s said”

Toole: “Yeah.”

Lucas: “And, uh, I can’t pinpoint my, uh, my location.”

Toole: “Yeah.”

Lucas: “And, uh, it’s caused a lot of confusion, uh”
Toole: “I wanna ask you somethin’ too, Henry.”

Lucas: “What is it?”

Toole: “How manyhow many niggers did me and you kill.”

Lucas: “Ahh niggers. Ahh, let’s see… that’d be, uh… approximately twelve all together.”

Toole: “About twelve?”

Lucas: “Yeah. Somewhere around that nuh, around that area.”

Toole: “Some of ‘em was, ahh…”

Lucas: “Well, what they call niggers, or half niggers and half, uh, white.”

Toole: “Yeah. Some of ‘em was gay and what have you, too, wasn’t they?”

Lucas: “Yeah. They’ve been a mixed breed of people as far as, uh, the killings themselves.”

4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pUYNASfWNM

Lucas: “And”

Toole: “Well, I liked to [0:00 INDECIPHERABLE] ‘em up, and all that mess, too.”

Lucas: “Yeah. [while laughing] Well, I’ve been through that, too. Uh, I have done it, you know.”

Toole: “Yeah.”

Lucas: “Uh, I’m not gonna deny that, and”

Toole: “Yeah.”

Lucas: “I’ve done it because I’ve had to do it.”

Toole: “Yeah.”

Lucas: “’Cause, uh…”

Toole: “I’ve been tryna block that outta my mind, you know”

Lucas: “ThereThere is no way you can do it. Blockin’ somethin’ outta your mind is impossible. So, uh… as far as, uh, what you’ve done, what you’ve said, uh, you’re the only one that knows the truth.”

Toole: “Yeah.”

Lucas: “And, uh, that truth has to be comin’ from you. Just like I have to tell the truth about what I’ve done. I’ve told ‘em one here this morning’ that I’d done, that I forgot about doin’.”

Toole: “Yeah. Are you countin‘ just the ones you killed by yourself, or me and you killed together?”

Lucas: “I’ve only told ‘em ‘bout the ones that I’ve done. Yeah”

Toole: “You told ’em a hundred and fifty, didn’t you?”

Lucas: “Yeah, and”

Toole: “Huh?”

Lucas: “Yeah, I gave ‘em a hundred and fifty positively identifications onon the ones that I’ve done.”

Toole: “I said we mI told ‘em with me and you together, maybe ‘bumm, ‘bout se’bout fifty or sixty, you know.”

Lucas: [laughs] “There’s a lot more than that, boy!”

Toole: “Yeah.”

Lucas: “Mmm. You best, uhthe only thing I’m askin’ Ottis”

Toole: “I killed over a hundred and something by myself.”

Lucas: “Well, that’sha ha, I know that’s a whole lot.”

Toole: “Yeah.”

Lucas: “Um. The thing is, uh, when I asked for this call”

Toole: “Yeah.”

Lucas: “Is I thought that you were doing some things because of me.”

Toole: “Yeah.”

Lucas: “’Cause of what you believe that I have done.”

Toole: “Yeah.”

Lucas: “But I don’t want you to do that. I want you to only tellif you done something, I want you to tell what you’ve done, and if I’m involved in it, then you tell ‘em that. Because that’s the only way that I’ll know, definitely”

Toole: “Yeah.”

Lucas: “That you’re gonna be honest.”

Toole: “Yeah.”

Lucas: “And, uh, I don’t hold anything against anybody.”

Toole: “Yeah.”

Lucas: “If I’ve done something, then I’ve done it. And…”

Toole: “Yeah.”

Lucas: “I mean, uh Becky has meant more to me than any [2:18 INDECIPHERABLE] part of my life. And I want to know”

Toole: “You and her mYou and her m [2:20 INDECIPHERABLE]”

Lucas: “Well, I know. That’s the same with, uhhher, because, uh… when she died, I died”

Toole: “I know she annoyed you at times, but that was natural, you know.”

Lucas: “Well, that’s always natural. I mean, everybody that runs together, or be’s together anywhere else, is always gonna have arguments, there’s nobody [2:39 INDECIPHERABLE]. And I don‘t wanna let arguments interfere with what has to be done.”

Toole: “Yeah.”

Lucas: “And, uh, I didn’t feel right, if I say ‘well yeah, Ottis done so-and-so‘, or ‘I done so-and-so’. I didn’t feel that was right, you know.”

Toole: “Yeah.”

Lucas: “And… I’ve been arguin’ with police officers, I’ve been… practically jumped on top of by police officers up in, uh, Monterey. And, uh”

Toole: “I ain’t jumped on nobody.”

Lucas: “Well, they come close with me gettin’ on ‘em, I tell you. And, uh”

Toole: “I ain’t jumped on none of ‘em ‘cause I wouldn’t be gettin’ nowhere.”

Lucas: “No you won’t. Um, that’s why I had to hold off, you know: ‘cause I don’t want to do it.”

Toole: “I used to do that when I was younger, you know, I used to bite back at ‘em, but, uh, I got the daylights beat out of me, too.”

Lucas: “[laughs] Well, that’s true, too.”

Toole: “But I cut that out, you know.”

Lucas: “Yeah. But, uh, there‘s another case I was gonna ask you about, but I been told that I‘m not allowed to ask, and, uh, I promised my attorney I wouldn‘t ask.”

Toole: “Huh?”

Lucas: “I promised my attorney I would awouldn’t ask about a certain case, so I won’t ask about it.”

Toole: “Okay.”

Lucas: “And, uh”