INTERVIEWS WITH DOCTORS REGARDING HENRY LEE LUCAS

Transcribed BY Ellen Grogan

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Dr. Gilliland Interview - Nov. 5, 1992

G: "This is Dr. Gilliland."

B: "Hello. My name is Brad Shellady. I am working with Vic Feazell on Henry Lucas's defense."

G: "Working with Vic Feazell on Henry Lucas's defense."

B: "Right. Henry's appeal."

G: "His appeal. Which extraterrestrial event of Henry's are you working on?"

B: "I am looking into the reports from your office that pertain to the Stoneburg remains and Becky Powell. May I ask you some questions concerning them?"

G: "You are, of course, aware that all of these details are intimately familiar. Nothing about any of these cases . . . that time has passed. Ask anything you want and I will tell you, if I remember."

B: "Thank you. The conclusion for the Stoneburg remains reads '. . . the bone fragments recovered is that of an adult human and that the bone has been subjected to heat.' It goes on to state '. . . the material was recovered following a confession that an adult human had been killed and the body burned.' How sure is that conclusion?"

G: "I am certain that that was a human bone. I am certain it was subjected to heat . . . under a reasonable doubt."

B: "The passage that caught my eye was that the history received with the bones was that someone had already confessed to killing and burning someone."

G: "That's not . . . That's history. If the history is not correct, that doesn't change the fact that that is a human bone and that it was subjected to heat."

B: "Turning to the Becky Powell autopsy, I noticed that you were not able to make a positive identification of her."

G: "Um . . . Not to the exclusion of all other people in the world. That was a strong circumstantial identification, in part by what he said but in part on the basis of superimposition of her face on the skeleton. The skull."

B: "Was everything else found to be consistent with Becky Powell?"

G: "Yes."

B: "Was there any pressure from law enforcement to reach those conclusions?"

G: "No. They wondered if there was anything here and I said 'Yes,' in the one case. Yeah."

B: "The Stoneburg case."

G: "The cremated remains. They said 'Could it be something?' I said 'It could. It could be not We've got to look at it. If it is, it is. If not.'"

B: "Your conclusion was that it was part of a human at one time."

G: "Yes. There was one very distinctive bit of bone fragment."

B: "Do you know if that evidence would still be around?"

G: "Um . . . I don't have any recollection. I . . . It might be in old DCMA records. Dallas County Medical Examiner records. That body was released, or fragments were released, to the family. That is my personal tendency. I am not saying that I have any independent recollection of whether we returned that material to the family because we couldn't positively identify that. I thought about it. It wasn't that I didn't say, 'There's some little x-ray that has this very fragment on it. It is a unique fragment. It does have unique markings.' But we never could find anything to make the comparison with. But with circumstantial, we have released a number of remains to people and said, "This is circumstantially your relative."

B: "Was the bone fragment from Stoneburg a complete enough piece to identify and pinpoint in the anatomy?"

G: "Yes."

B: "So you were able to compare it to an independent source?"

G: "Yes."

B: "That's basically what I needed."

G: "Could I have your name again?"

B: "Brad Shellady.  S. H. E. L. L. A.D.Y. Would you like a phone number for me?"

G: "I was hoping this was going to be it and you weren't going to surprise me with a subpoena or anything."

B: "No. That's not the case."

G: "I am reasonably certain about the limited things that I am certain about and I have always tried to state what it is that I am certain about and then say, 'by history,' when it comes to something that is historical."

B: "Thank you very much."

G: "You're welcome."

B: "Goodbye."

END OF INTERVIEW (Dr. Gilliland is now located in North Carolina.)

 

Dr. Gilliland Interview - Nov. 9, 1992

B: "This is Brad Shellady calling back. We spoke last Thursday."

G: "Yes."

B: "I came across a couple more things I was wondering if you would answer for me?"

G "Certainly."

B: "Was the skeleton of Freida Powell complete?"

G: "I don't remember. Do you have a copy of the report?"

B: "Yes."

G: (Irritated) "What does it say?"

B: "I really can't make it out."

G: (Irritated) "Does it say it's a complete human skeleton?"

B: "No. Would it say complete?"

G: "It would say complete."

B: "Then it is correct to say it was a partial?"

G: "Right."

B: "What was the method of superimposition used?"

G: "That was done later. Dr. Matthews and I did that years later."

B: "What method was used for that?"

G: "He took a photograph of the young woman and a photograph of the skull and literally double exposed."

B: "You're saying that he laid Frieda's picture over a picture of the skull and then found what reference points he could, is that correct?"

G: "Yes."

B: "What was your interest in doing it years later?"

G: "We were interested in the process and had gotten better at it. The doctor said, 'I could do that.' I said, 'Oh, yeah?' He said, 'Yeah.' And so we did."

B: "Was the case then picked at random for this?"

G: "Oh, it's always been an interesting case to me. That's close to at random. It was not prompted by any external event."

B: "How do you spell the name of the doctor that was working with you?"

G: "B-E-S-A-N-T; M-A-T-T-H-E-W-S. Since it was informal, he may or may not have any independent recollection of this activity. His phone number is (214) 385–2200."

B: "Could I get your first name please?"

G: "M.G.F. Try not to surprise me with a subpoena. It really irritates me."

B: "I will not do that."

G: "Because, like I said, I really think he's good for this one."

B: "Thank you very much."

G: "Goodbye."

END OF INTERVIEW

 

Dr Jose Acosta Interview Regarding Henry Lee Lucas - Dec 10, 1992

Dr. Acosta is a forensic pathologist currently working at Illini Hospital in Moline, IL.

BS: "Hi, Doctor. I am currently involved with writing a book concerning a murder case in Texas which involves a rape. A post-mortem rape where there were no sperm samples found. I was wondering, is it possible, or probable, to commit a rape and leave no forensic trail?"

DA: "Well, that depends on how they define rape. You don't have to ejaculate to commit rape. In some states, penetration, or attempt at penetration, is rape. In that case you would not have any sperm."

BS: "Would it be possible to commit this act and not have any trauma show on the body?"

DA: "Yea. Usually trauma is done to the victim putting up some resistance. If the victim decides that she doesn't want to fight this thing and just get it over with, she might not have trauma."

BS: "How probable is it to not leave any forensic evidence? Hair samples. Whatever."

DA: "To be negative, negative, negative for everything? (Laughs) I don't think you can. I think you have to leave something behind. Of course it depends on the time element. I am thinking vaginal rape but it could be oral or someplace else. You have to take samples from all three places."

BS: "This case concerns and alleged vaginal rape that tested negative for sperm."

DA: "You might not be able to see spermatozoa but you can always do chemical tests that indicate that semen has been deposited. Specifically you are looking for enzymes. Acid Phosphotates which might be present in the vaginal secretion, which in females they shouldn't be there."

BS: "So you are saying that to commit a rape, forceful or not, and to come up negative on all points would be very improbable."

DA: "Yes You have to have something."

BS: "How long have you been a forensic pathologist?"

DA: "Oh, I have been doing this since 1968."

BS: "Thank you very much. That clears up some things."

DA: "Well, I hope it works for your book."

BS: "Thank you very much."

DA: "You're quite welcome."

BS: "Goodbye."

DA: "Bye."

END OF INTERVIEW

 

Dr Jose Acosta Interview Regarding Henry Lee Lucas – Dec 11, 1992

I am standing in Dr. Acosta's office, located in the lab at Illini Hospital. I have handed him a copy of Viola Lucas's autopsy and asked if he would explain it to me.

DA: "When you are talking about cause of death, that is the event that people die of, and then you also have to say what the mechanism is by which death occurred. In other words, the stabbing is an event but what happened? Did he punctured a lung? Did he cut the heart out? Whatever. That's your mechanism. I think what he [the doctor] was trying to say here [indicating a passage in the autopsy] is that the stabbing is to an artery which is in one of the main branches coming out from the cervical area of the aorta. Stabbing or cutting an artery causes hemorrhage or bleeding, and edema which is swelling of the tissues by fluid caused by that cut. That's your mechanism of death. Death is due to the stab in the neck."

BS: "Would it be accurate to say…"

DA: "It's death by stabbing of the neck."

BS: "So, the knife punctured the artery and she bled to death internally, is this correct?"

DA: "Internally, yes."

Dr. Acosta then helped me put together a drawing of the injury to illustrate the nature of the injury and to better show the location of the cuts.

END OF INTERVIEW

 

BONUS HENRY LEE LUCAS INTERVIEW

INTERVIEW BETWEEN BETTY CRAWFORD, BOB LEMONS, HUGH AYNESWORTH AND CRAWFORD'S DAUGHTER

A - Hugh Aynesworth                             B - Betty Crawford
C - Crawford's Daughter                         L - Bob Lemons

B - I can't tell you what date.

A – Well, now, you had – Officer Dixon told me you've been in touch with him somehow by correspondence or maybe telephone calls or some . . .

B - Well, his sister called me that he was getting out.

A – Which sister was that?

B - Almeda.

A - Almeda Kaiser and said – Hello –

C - Hi.

A - And said he was going to get out in Michigan?

B - Uh, huh.

A - And did she tell you when and –

B - She just said she didn't – shut that dog up – she didn't say – she just said that he was coming – he was already on his way when she called.

A - Oh, I see.

B - And that why first – she told me to come back up – then they flew him home, is all I know.

A - Did they plane him home?

B - Yeah, cause he was already home when I found that out and that was two or three – she told me he was on his way home when he was coming home – and she didn't let me know for a couple days and he was already home.

A - Oh, I see.

B - I tear those down and -

A - Let's pull up a little closer . . . Well, okay. That's alright. I mean, you may have to help me up but at least I'm here.

L - We got him right where we want him.

C - . . .

B - . . . Well, sit down and . . . oldest daughter, . . .

A - Hi, how are you?

L - Hi.

A - Jim, Bob and Hugh. Jim, Bob and Hugh – that sounds like . . .

L - Jim, Bob and Hugh – that sounds like the Three Stooges to me.

A – Heckle and Jeckle and –

B – And then she said he'd been in for a couple of days and she's calling me and staying at his niece's in Pennsylvania.

A – Which niece is that?

B - Anomi Hurdol?

A - Is that A O M A?

B - A N I M - I O M A, something like that, I could –

A - Alright. Where does she live?

B - Then, she lived – it was in Athens – Athens in Pennsylvania – Avandale – or something like that.

A - You mean that Henry was staying over there at that time?

B - Uh, huh. They have a trailer up there.

A - Why was he over there – why wasn't he with Almeda?

B - Well, I guess he was supposed to been going up there working the mushroom job – the mushroom factory.

A - But you didn't see him for a period of time?

B - No, I didn't see him till he was here – down at Almeda's – for maybe two or three weeks or so and then he come in once with her and I didn't see him no more till about October – November.

A- So, October. So, is the next time you saw him for any period of time at all?

B - Uh, huh.

A - . . . Then you all – did you start . . .

B - Well, the reason we got married was the . . . give him a home.

A - Did you feel sorry for him?

B - At the time, I did, you know. I thought he didn't have nobody, no . . . you know. I just figured, you know, maybe if I give him a home it'd straighten him up and like that, that's all.

A - You knew the other members . . .

B - Yeah, but see, 'cause my husband . . . father was his – Anomi Hurdol's uncle. My husband's half uncle.

A - Oh, I see, I see. I can't keep track . . .

B - See, I was a Crawford and he was their half. He was my husband's half uncle.

A - So your mother-in-law then was his half-sister?

B - Half-sister.

A - Oh, I got you now. I may not keep up, but I got you now.

B - Uh, huh . . .

C - . . .

A - Well, then you – your husband had been killed, I understand.

B - Yeah, electrocuted, uh, huh.

A - Alright – what – three or four years before that?

B - Oh, I - we had been separated . . . divorced in '72 and he was killed in '73. And I married Henry in December of '75.

A - Here?

B - Yeah.

A - In northeastern -

B - Elkton.

A - Elkton?

B - That's the only place you can . . .

A - So, you just sort of took him in, really?

B - Yeah, that's the reason.

A - Did you have – you had two children?

B - I had three little – all to my husband.

A - Uh, huh. You the oldest pup?

B - Uh, huh - she' eighteen.

A - So, then where did you live – did you live here?

B - Well, I was living in northeast when Henry and I met again – I was living in one – a place that's not there too much anymore – it was Harvey's Court – it was down in town.

A - Harvey's Court?

B - Yeah. And then we moved from there to Pt. Deposit in the house and we stayed there a couple of months and then come back up there to my brother's in town 'cause we use – two other weeks, then I bought a trailer.

A - Where did you put that trailer?

B - At Bentsman's Trailer Club.

A - And is that in town here?

B - No, that's in Pt. Deposit.

A - In Pt. Deposit. Now, try to figure out the time that Henry was bound to have been here. You said he came in in August, then he went up to Pennsylvania – just over the line, I guess.

B - Uh, huh.

A - Then you got together with him around October or so of '75?

B - Well, he had his car then – Almeda helped him get a car . . .

A - What kind of car?

B - He had a Cadillac – a white Cadillac. I don't know what year it was.

A - You know, you were too little . . .

C - . . . About '67.

A - So the point is – you were with him then, starting about October, really.

B - Yeah.

A - 'Cause he was here - you knew that he was -

B - So, well, I knew where his whereabouts till around '77 and the only time he could a done anything is when he went down to Virginia for about one or two days with his father – Almeda died to his brother Harry.

A – Harry, his brother here?

B - Harry Waugh.

A - . . .

B - Yeah, Harry Waugh. W A U G H.

A - Now where did Harry Waugh live?

B - Just down around Stanton, Virginia. It's not – it's spelled S T A N T O N, but they pronounce it –

A - People pronounce that both ways . . . Well, in other words, then, from October, well, actually, from August of '75, you knew where he was.

B - Well, no –

A - You really knew from October of '75 till –

B - Till sometime in July of '77 – he left in July of '77.

A - How do you remember it was July of '77?

B - Because he was supposed to have gone back up there to that mushroom factory to work, you know. He kept saying well, I – they'd hold two or three weeks back on me, you know – two weeks, then get paid on the third week. Well, it was the third week and they kept coming home later and later every – come back later and later every night, so I knew something was wrong.

A - He wasn't working?

B - He wasn't really working 'cause then my little nephew told me, he said – he said, I really – I seen him coming out there where I live and he was living . . . with his sister, Opal, all the time.

A - Oh, he was at Opal's part of the town when he was with also.

B - Supposed to be in July, supposed to be working in July, he was at Opal's.

A - Uh, huh. But before that was with you all the time except the time you were talking about?

B - Yeah, and he drove a girl – a woman to Rhode Island, but they come back the next day – and she come back two days later, so I knew –

A - Who was the woman, do you recall?

B - Alls I know is her name was Jan and she had her daughter and her little boy with her – they all come back.

A - Could that be a woman named Jan Miller?

B - Yeah.

A - Okay and as far as you recall, they were only gone overnight?

B - Well, it took them as long as took them up there, drop her off, bought the coffee and come back, but don't forget to come back and he was back the next day or, you know, . . . long it takes to drive to Rhode Island.

A - So, what you're saying is that there is no doubt in your mind that from August of '75 when you knew where he was between the family till July of '77 – there's no way he was gone more than a couple nights?

B - That's right.

A - But he was with you all this time?

B - Yeah, we were married . . .

A - I know, but I mean, you know.

B - You know, not unless he went out to the store or something like that.

A - I know, but I mean, every night – every night he was with you?

B - Yeah, he is. Well, see, if he went out in the car, I'd know.

L - Yeah, when he was working – that's when he was supposed to be working – he was at his sister's. Did he stay overnight there or did he – would he - he was coming back – going . . .

B - He was coming back to Atlanta then. He said he got something about his car – he didn't have the right insurance or something on his car or something – license – and the cops was following him in Pennsylvania. And he give me the Pennsylvania number to call him – I'd call that number to find out, you know, if he was telling me the truth and it was a disconnected number. So I knew something was up, then. And after that the last time he called, he said he couldn't – he couldn't . . ., you know. And I haven't seen him since then. But –

A - Well, of course, what you're talking about him being late and going up there – that's only the month of July – that few days in July.

B - Been in July and I think it might have been the first day of August.

A - Uh, huh. But up to July first, he was here all the time, every night, except for those two times you mentioned – Road Island and down in Virginia.

B - Uh, huh.

A - So, you know, of course, that he's confessed to a lot – a lot of murders . . .

B - Oh, I know – I think it's just . . . trying to . . . himself a lot – that's what it is – what I feel, they ought to torture him the way he tortured his victims. That's what I think.

A - Uh, huh. Have you been in touch with the family at all in recent years?

B - No, they wouldn't – but you know, from hearing that – I don't associate too much with families. His sister allowed me to call – I mean, I have nothing against her or nothing like that – she was never . . . you know, and she didn't like what happened either, but I don't associate too much with the family – once in a while.

A - Well, during that period of time, course, you said he killed a lot of people here which he obviously couldn't have.

B - No, not by himself, at least.

A - Well -

B - And if he wasn't there he couldn't a done it.

A - Yeah, that's a good point. Now, why – you just think he's doing this – why?

B - To make himself – to keep it going and going and going till they just gets tired of him, you know, bringing all this stuff out because he couldn't kill all them – he didn't have time to kill all them people . . . to keep himself alive from being executed, I think is what it is.

A - Oh, I see what you're getting at – that makes some sense.

B - You know, 'cause he got, what, eighty years for that – for that other lady and, I think, seventy-five years for that common-law wife and, I think –

A - And the death penalty for another one.

B - On another one. But I think he's trying to keep himself from –

C - . . . die for saying that (in audible)

B - Well, he never going to get out. Fran Dixon done assured me of that.

A - I beg your pardon?

B - Well, he said he'd never get out.

A - No, he'll never – he'll never walk the streets again, see – would you be afraid of him if he got out?

B - I wouldn't be afraid of him getting out, but my children – my girls, you know, that's why . . .

C - I wouldn't be afraid of him, I . . . the day I see him, he's gone.

A - Well, yeah, I don't think you'll see him unless you come down to Texas and look through there –

C - . . .

A - Is that in Hurst where you . . .

B - Uh, huh.

A - Tell me about the time period when y'all were down in Hurst.

B - Well, it was June the 3rd to June 10th,  I believe – something like that. It was one week.

A - June 3rd of 1977?

B - I went down to visit my mother – were going to make a move down there because they said there was work down there and places was cheaper. So I got a U-Haul and everything and he had to have his friend come with him which I didn't want - Ben Polaski, and Ben was killed.

A - How was he killed?

B - His wife said he was thrown out the car, said Mafia or something did it.

A - We had heard that. We didn't necessarily believe that, though.

B - Well, that's what she said. She was –

A - Well, do you believe it? Do you think he was Mafia?

B - Well, either that or maybe he was ganged or something like them Johnstons – did do that kind of stuff around here.

A - Why would they be trying to get even with him?

C - Uh, . . .

A - I mean, was he –

B - I didn't know what Ben done, you know. I didn't know, you know, after – after I left from 'round there, I didn't even know – we left him up in Illinois and I didn't see him no more after that.

A - Well, did – what was Ben's wife's name?

B - Carol -

A - Carol – did she go with him?

B - When we went to Texas, yeah.

A - So there was you and Henry, Ben and Carol and –

B - My three girls and her little girls and just having a baby.

A - You had a load, didn't you?

B - Yeah. We had a U-Haul and then, coming back, you see, I went down there to see my mother 'cause she was staying down at my sister's.

A - And that was her step-sister?

B - Yeah. It was and then we come back, we brought my mama back 'cause she . . . coming back and we still had Carol and then – but we dropped them off at Illinois – and the U-Haul.

A - Why did you drop the U-Haul off in New Orleans?

B - Well, it was just – it was trying to . . . and they said they would turn it in, so –

A - Oh, I see, then –

B - No, it had their stuff in it and Henry just left half of my stuff because it was at night – we were leaving and we couldn't see . . . put it in the station wagon and all like that and the man . . . that . . . Polaski . . . – he said he would turn it in.

A - What relatives do you still have down there?

B - My sister and her two daughters.

A - . . . Hurst?

B - Uh, huh.

A - Well, I don't understand. Did Henry, – was he ever vicious, mean toward you or the kids or any of that stuff?

B - Well, nothing ever treated mean too much, but he was always nervous.

A - Nervous?

B - Uh, huh. But he did molest my children – daughters. I found that out.

A - You found that out after he left, I guess, didn't you? How did you – did they tell you that they – where they scared of him?

B - Yes, he threatened to kill them and that's what they told me.

A - Did he ever threaten to kill you?

B - No, but he always wanted to move to Duluth, Minnesota, and no way.

A - Where?

B - To Duluth, Minnesota. And it gets cold enough here.

A - Well, that – that – I'm talking about getting really mean. Duluth, Minnesota, ain't mean.

B - Yeah, but up there . . . 'cause I can't drive or nothing like that.

A - I see.

B - And I figured, you know, something was up and he wanted to . . . I figured . . . he could have tried to, you know, kill us all 'cause you always . . . dead father – Social Security and stuff.

A - Well, if he killed them, he wouldn't get that, would he?

B - Yeah, but he could have – they would have never known, you know . . .

A - Did he – were – you don't drive at all?

B - No.

A - So that's another reason you'd know he's home or not, wouldn't you?

B - Yes, because I don't drive. I'd love to . . .

L - Before he wanted to move to Minnesota, had he given you any reason to be afraid of him?

B - No, not really. I mean, I think . . . he was afraid of me because I demanded, you know, for the kids to go to school. He didn't care if they went to school or not. I did, and I told him to get out and get a job and stuff like that. And I know one – a lot of times I'd send – give him money to go pay the bills and I'd go billing the next month and it wasn't paid – all paid, you know, and I'd get after him about that – well, I paid it – they're wrong, you know.

A - Well, I bet he was awful close to home on the third of every month, wasn't he?

B - Yes.

A - That's the day the mail brings the good stuff.

B - Well, the . . . Come home first, you see.

A - Oh.

B - And then the Social Security come home the third.

A - And so he helped you spend that up, huh?

B - Well, I paid my bills first, I always pay the rent – what are you looking for . . .

C - . . .

B - Paid the rent and, you know, land rent and bills come first and then what was ever left was – what are you doing?

C - Carol asked me to . . .

A - Do you remember did Henry work at any company while you were married to him where there might be records showing exactly –

B - He – he had a job for a couple of days with a tree trimming company, but I can't remember the name, and he was –

A - What town was that in, do you know?

B - Well, the men were living in Pt. Deposit, but I don't know who – you know, where they come from.

A - Yeah, I see – but that was just a couple of days?

B - Yeah, but he could have a permanent job with them.

A - He really didn't want to work.

B - No.
 
A - He probably thought –
 
B - You know which one is there's?
 
C - Yeah.
 
A - He probably thought he had it pretty easy here.
 
B - Yeah.
 
A - Well, did he work – he did work with some of his family members, didn't he, during that period of time – didn't he do some work – junkie –
 
B - Well, he helped Wade – his – Almeda's husband in the junkyard.
 
A - Uh, huh.
 
B - And then – and took in odd things like that. He would do odd things like that or something, or like Mr. Benjamin needed something, you know, dug up or something like that. Help clean up the trailer park or something. But it wouldn't be nothing that really would pay him any money.
 
A - Yeah.
 
B - So -
 
A - With the exception of a couple days – all odd jobs, huh?
 
B - Yeah, he's always buying – wanting cars. And I know the last one he bought was – last one got was a Ford station wagon – was green . . .
 
A - What kind – excuse me, what kind would that have been, do you know – Ford – Ford?
 
B - Ford – it was a big one I couldn't tell you that right now.
 
A - It was green?
 
B - Uh, huh.
 
A - Where would he get the money for –
 
B - I paid for it – it was in my name, but I didn't want it. But the trailer was handy as ever and he took off with the car.
 
A - He did – when they left?
 
B - Yeah. 'Cause, see, I didn't know where he was, so how could I have gotten ahold of him?
 
A - Have you learned since where he went from here?
 
B – No, I don't – . . . To Opal's.
 
A - To Opal's.
 
B - Yeah, the rising Sun . . . school house . . . 'cause that's where it was 'cause he had come bought the kids a puppy one night – one day he said he – was his boss was going to turn them over 'cause they were little poodles – thoroughbred – they're daddy . . . and he bought the poodle – eight days old poodle – why, he was going to bump them over, you know, but I found out he had stolen from his sister's, but that was before he left and –
 
A - Well, he didn't – how old did you think –
 
B - I didn't really know. I have no idea.
 
A - You didn't really miss him, being gone, I guess.
 
B - No, I was glad in a way.
 
(Tape Stops)
 
A - Well, did your girls like him at first?
 
B - No, they didn't like. Well, not really . . . at first – they just – it was just somebody to drive them around. They didn't understand a lot – they were little.
 
C - I didn't . . .
 
B - No, she didn't, but the other two didn't.
 
A - But you were only about, what? – about eight years old at the time?
 
C - Well, when he first started coming around, I was six. The day after my father died.
 
B - No, it wasn't.
 
C - No . . .
 
B - You got him to move two years.
 
A - He was in prison then.
 
B - Yeah, he was there.
 
A - . . . '75.
 
B - In '75, your daddy was killed in '73.
 
C - I was thinking of something else . . .
 
B - Yeah, he did come around when you were little, yes. When you was first born, he got out of jail 'cause it was '70 'cause Wendy was – my baby was – had just been born. This been a month or so old when he come out in '70.
 
C - But he always gave me weird looks when he . . . that's why I didn't like him.
 
A - Even when you were eight years old?
 
C – Yeah, when I was nine or ten, he did…
 
B – Well, I told them, they know all about that.
 
A - Yeah. You should have told your mother real fast, but I guess you get scared, don't you?
 
C - . . . trouble -
 
B - Then . . . if I had known, I probably would have killed him myself, you know.
 
A - Did you ever get in an argument – a heated argument with him?
 
B - Not really too much, 'cause -
 
C - One time.
 
B - One time, but that was over –
 
C - He beat me and he . . .
 
B - And he was terrible and he shouldn't have and I told him she's my daughter – don't do that 'cause I say so, because it was nothing over – 'cause she didn't do some dishes or something and he shouldn't have whipped her that much . . .
 
A - When he went down to Hurst, why did he insist on abandoning Carol, was it –
 
B - I don't know – they were supposed to put the way down, but they didn't do it . . .
 
A - And you brought your mother back with you?
 
B - And she paid – yeah, she paid for us back.
 
A - Uh, huh.
 
B - And she's convalescent.
 
A - She ill?
 
B - Uh, huh. She had an operation.
 
A - Oh.
 
B - That's all.
 
A - Well, of course, the police that've cleared these cases on Henry, they say, well, maybe his wife says that, but, you know, that's his wife and she loves him and she doesn't want him to die and all that stuff. Tell me how you feel about that.
 
B - Huh. If he died tomorrow, I wouldn't care, or today – that's what I'd tell them. I have no use – no love – no nothing for him. I . . . the day he left. I was nothing – there really wasn't a lot of love there in the first place. I was just trying to give him a home and . . . and I got fed up, I mean, after you're married over a year and then he won't try - so what's he use, you know.
 
A - Well, have you had anybody to accuse you of trying to cover up from this period of time?
 
B - No, they haven't never accused me.
 
A - I thought maybe some of the police that made these cases . . .
 
B - No, uh, uh. 'Cause I would make no excuses for him. And they . . .
 
A - Well, I definitely believe what you're telling me and I didn't want to leave you . . . the exact dates and things from putting together various things and we certainly believe you. But I was just saying that some people are probably not going to. They say, well, you know, it's his wife, what do you expect. But what I'm interested in – what really got kind of relationship – I'd like to ask you something else that's just a little bit tricky, but it goes along with some of the things that he's been saying. He always talks about having sex with his victims and having sex after death and all this stuff – do you believe that?
 
B - Well, it could be true. I mean, if he's sick enough to kill people, he's sick enough to be having sex.
 
A - Well, okay, but my point is that I've talked to people that he's lived with over the years – stayed with him from time to time – they tell me that he is not very sexual – he really isn't that much into sex.
 
B - Um. No, but it's more like now, he could be of lately – it could have a time that, you know, tried to love, but and then, no, he wasn't into . . . but you don't know what he did when he wasn't at home.
 
A - Well, 'course, all I know what the other people tell me and most of them tell me that he wasn't but he wasn't psychologically into sex except deviant sex with another man or with children.
 
B - Well, I didn't know about with other men.
 
A - Yeah. Well, 'course, he traveled around and got involved with Toole.
 
B - Yeah, I found that out.
 
A - And Toole is a homosexual – blatant – blatant fag . . . in other words – you didn't have any reason to believe he would do that?
 
B - Oh, I didn't even know . . .
 
A - Oh, I know, I know, but I mean –
 
C - . . .
 
A – I guess you could say that.
 
L – Did he have any close friends there in town – the kind he was . . .
 
B – Only Ben, only the . . . and that's the only one.
 
C – And he was just as bad as Henry.
 
B - And he was – had to watch him, too.
 
C  – . . .
 
A – He what?
 
C – . . . he tried things with my own friends, too.
 
B – . . .
 
A - How old a man was this Polaski?
 
B – 'Bout – if he was living, I think he'd be around my age or older.
 
C – He's hitting forty.
 
A – How old are you?
 
B – About thirty-eight.
 
A – Thirty-eight?
 
B - Uh, huh.
 
L - He brought any other friends around into the house or –
 
B – Uh, huh.
 
C  – . . .
 
B – Well, that was . . . but they never bothered in the house.
 
A - . . .
 
B - Yeah, they never bothered us – they lived right out in the trailer for one of the couple trailers and stuff like that. I, you know, we never went very far to anybody else 'cause Almeda's was about as far as we went.
 
A – How far was that from where you lived, to her house?