Transcribed by Christi Punteney
Henry Lee Lucas takes the stand at the El Paso County hearing and is questioned about how his confessions were taken. Transcribed verbatim from the official record, pages 1765 to 1870.
We will limit what Mr. Lucas says to this hearing. You understand?
We are not here to have him confess to anything. We are here to find out how this confession was received by the police or how it was gotten from him.
MR. PONTON: Yes, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Now, lets go on. If you want to call him, call him. If you don’t, don’t.
MR. PONTON: Okay. At this time, Your Honor, the defense would call Henry Lee Lucas.
THE COURT: Mr. Lucas, raise your right hand, sir.
All right, sir. Have a seat.
HENRY LEE LUCAS,
Having been first duly sworn by the Court to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, was examined and testified as follows:
BY MR. PONTON:
Q. Please state your full name.
A. Henry Lee Lucas.
Q. When were you born, Mr. Lucas?
August 23rd, 1936.
MR. MOODY: Your Honor, I don’t believe the mike phone is on.
THE COURT: Bob, turn it on.
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) Where were you born, Mr. Lucas?
A. Montgomery County, Virginia.
Q. Now, you understand that you have certain rights not to incriminate yourself under the Fifth Amendment of the United States Constitution, do you not/
A. Yes, sir, that’s what you read me.
Q. And as your heard our colloquy here with the court, that you have a right to testify to certain matters regarding the voluntariness of your confession here, but you also have a right not to testify about your guilt or innocence not only in this case but in all the other cases in which you’re charged. Do you understand that?
A. Yes, sir, I think I do. Q. And understanding that, you do not wish to waive any Fifth Amendment right you may have regarding your involvement in any of these other cases of your guilt or innocence here. Is that correct?
A. Correct.
Q. You wish only to testify as to the voluntariness of the confession taken here in El Paso. Is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, Mr. Lucas, I want to direct your attention back to a time in May of 1983. In May of 1983, where were you living?
A. I was living in Stoneburg, Texas.
Q. Where in Stoneburg?
A. House of prayer.
Q. And who was living with you there at the House of prayer?
A. ’83 I had been living by myself there at the House of Prayer.
Q. Who else was on the grounds that saw you there?
A. There was Ruben Moore, Faye Moore, Pop Moore, which is deceased now, and there was Ronald Miller, Gladys Miller. Her son, which I don’t remember his name, he was there, and there was a Mexican lady and a Mexican man lived there.
Q. Now, did there come a time in May of 1983 when you purchased a pistol?
A. I don’t remember whether it was in May or not. I think it was a little earlier than that.
Q. Okay. Can you recall when that was?
A. Well, it was during the time that Gilbert Bengle and his wife was having problems, mental problems, and he had come to me and asked me if I would take the gun so that his wife couldn’t commit suicide with it because she was running around asking, you know, people to take her life.
Q. And did you agree with Mr. Bengle to take the gun from him?
A. I did, yes.
Q. And did you keep that gun with you there at the House of Prayer all the time you owned that gun?
A. It wasn’t with me. It was in the kitchen at the House of prayer.
Q. Okay. Now, at the House of Prayer, can you describe for the Court was that a converted chicken coop or chicken ranch of some kind, Mr. Lucas?
A. It was a chicken ranch is what it used to be. Then they built a chapel, and they were in the
process of building apartments, which I built all but one apartment.
MR. PONTON: May I approach the witness, Your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes, sir.
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) I want to show you what has been marked as entered into evidence as Defendant’s Exhibit 16, Mr. Lucas. Can you identify that picture?
A. This is the picture of the section of the chicken ranch where I lived.
Q. Okay.
A. The place where you see the trailer back here is my doors, right there.
Q. Okay. So if I put my finger right here, that’s going to be where you lived?
A. Right.
MR. PONTON: Okay. I want to show this to the Court. May I approach the bench, Your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes, sir.
MR. PONTON: Mr. Lucas identified that door as the place he lived at the House of Prayer.
THE COURT: All right, sir.
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) Now, would you please explain to the Court what that cook shack was there at the House of Prayer? Well, the cook shack was, when it was first built, it was built to have meetings in which it was two sections of it. There was one section where they had the meetings and the other section which they used as a kitchen for the residents there to eat at the House of Prayer.
Q. Is that kitchen where you took all your meals while you were living there at the House of Prayer?
A. Yes, that’s where I ate at and that’s where I cooked my meals when I had a chance to cook any meals.
Q. And this pistol that you say you got from Gilbert Bengle, it stayed at that kitchen?
A. Yes, it was hid in what they call a warmer in the kitchen. And I kept it in back of that so people wouldn’t be getting it.
Q. And that was the kitchen where you took your meals every day?
A. Yes, sir, that’s where I spent most of my time when I was on the campground.
Q. And you always had access to that kitchen?
A. Right.
Q. And you always had the run of that kitchen?
A. Right.
Q. And you always had the run of that kitchen?
A. I did.
Q. Could you cook your meals there?
A. Yes, I cooked my - - I didn’t have a stove or refrigerator in my place.
Q. Now, there came a time when you prepared to leave Stoneburg. Is that correct?
A. Yes, that’s correct.
Q. And approximately what time, what moth - - what day and month was that in 1983?
A. That was in June, June the 11th - - or June the 4th is when I left.
Q. Now, you moved to Stoneburg to the House of Prayer approximately when?
A. I came there, I think, either the first of June or the last of May of ’82.
Q. Now, during the spring of 1983, did you ever leave there for any time other than any close-in trip - - any extended trip except the trip you’re referring to on June 4th, 1983?
A. Nothing but to Dallas and back. That’s all, if that’s what you are talking about.
Q. So you remained there continuously that spring of ’83 until June 4th. Is that correct?
A. Correct.
Q. Now, Mr. Lucas, when you were preparing for your trip on June 4th, what did you do with that
pistol?
Well, I kept it up until about 12:00, you know, there at the kitchen. And then when I got ready to leave, why, I told Ruben, I said, “Look, this thing will get me in trouble if I take it with me.” And I said, “I don’t want to do that.”
So I said, “Would you take and keep it?” I said, “I don’t want it.” And Ruben took it and handed it over to Faye.
Q. And was that at the cook shack where you had the pistol?
A. It was, yes, inside the kitchen.
Q. And after that it was in Faye Moore’s possession. Is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, you returned to Stoneburg on June 9th. Is that correct?
A. Correct.
Q. And you were arrested in Stoneburg on June 11?
A. June 11th after noon is when it was.
Q. That is when you were arrested by Phil Ryan and W. F. Conway?
A. Right.
Q. And can you tell the Court what the warrant
was for that they arrested you on?
Supposed to have been, the way they explained to me, for carrying a firearm.
Q. Is that under the Texas statute that makes it a crime for a felon to carry a firearm away from the premises where he lives?
A. Correct.
Q. Is it your testimony today that you never possessed that firearm away from the premises where you lived?
A. I did not, no.
Q. Now, you were incarcerated for how many days in Stoneburg, Texas, prior to first giving any confession to W. F. Conway and Phil Ryan?
A. That depends on which one you’re talking about, whether you’re talking in ’82 or ’83.
Q. Well, let’s discuss for a moment the 1982 incarceration. Did there come a time in October of 1982 when you were jailed in Stoneburg, Texas?
A. Yes, I was. It was in 17th of - - or 17th of October I was arrested.
Q. And was that an arrest because of a warrant for an outstanding parole violation from the state of Pennsylvania?
A. No, it was for probation.
Q. Probation? From where?
A. State of Maryland.
Q. Maryland?
A. I had paroled to Florida.
Q. Now, how long were you held in jail in October of 1982 in Montaque County?
A. I stayed in jail from October 17th until November 5th.
Q. And during that period of time from October 17th to November 5th, did you have a lawyer?
A. No, I was refused one.
Q. Did you request a lawyer?
A. I did.
Q. Did Sheriff Conway or any of the authorities in Montaque County give you a lawyer at that time?
A. No, I did not have one.
Q. Were you eventually released because you were told that they did not - - that no one wanted to extradite you?
A. I was released in a $2,000 personal bond. And I had learned later that they had already released me a week and a half before on the fugitive warrant.
Q. Okay. Now, at that time that you were in jail in October and November of 1982, did sheriff
Conway tell you that you were a suspect in the investigation of the disappearances of two people in north Texas?
He not only told me, he said he was going to get me regardless of what I did.
Q. Okay. And after you were released from jail on November 5th of 1982, did you continue to live in Stoneburg, Texas?
A. I did.
Q. And did you continue to see Sheriff Conway and Phil Ryan and other persons up there in Stoneburg, Texas?
A. Well, he saw Smith, which is the DA’s investigator. I saw him practically every day. And the sheriff, he would be coming around at least twice a week. And Phil Ryan, he would come around sometimes. But I would see them every day, him or the deputy, one.
Q. Was it your understanding that when you were seeing them they were continuing to see you for your investigations - -as a part of their investigations into the disappearances of those two persons in north Texas? A. Well, I was under constant surveillance night and day.
Q. Then, Mr. Lucas, did you see some of these persons in May of 1983 prior to your trip on June 4th?
A. Yes. I saw some deputies which came up and drove through the yard just before I left. And I also had to go take a lie detector’s test in March of ’83.
Q. You took several of those, didn’t you?
A. Yes, I did. I took three altogether.
Q. Now, in June of 1983, you were arrested on a warrant for a felon in possession of a firearm away from where you lived. Is it true that you gave a confession to the deputy there the evening of June 15th, 1983?
A. I believe I did. I gave him a whole list of confessions. I don’t remember exactly what all they were about, but there was a whole list of them which I had been doing ever since 1982.
Q. Now, when - - between June 11th of ’83 when you were arrested and June 15th of 1983 when you gave your initial confession, did you have a lawyer?
A. No, I was refused a lawyer.
Q. Did you request a lawyer?
A. I did. I requested a lawyer. I requested phone calls. I requested visits. I requested cigarettes. And none of it was given to me.
Q. When were you first given a lawyer on your initial arrest in Texas in June of 19 - - any time in ’83?
A. After they brought me back from the state hospital up in Wichita.
Q. Now, were you given any medical attention or any type of treatment prior to your initial confession in June 15th of 1983?
A. I was given some type of shot in the hospital for something. I don’t know what it was. I asked them for something to sleep with, and they had gave me this shot.
Q. Is that before or after your confession?
A. That was before the confession. And they gave me some kind of a pill to take a couple hours after I took the shot. And when I got back to the jail, that’s the last I remember until Wichita Falls.
Q. Okay. Now, do you remember your first confession that you wrote out on a legal pad when you were in the custody of the Montaque County jail on the evening of June 15th, 1983?
A. I can’t remember parts of it. I don’t remember every word I said.
Q. Can you remember stating in there that you had been refused a lawyer? Yes. I think that was around the first or last part of it. I don’t remember which.
Q. Now, when you first talked to a jailer there, do you remember his name?
A. I don’t remember his name. I remember he came back to my cell and we were standing there talking, because I asked him if I could make a phone call. And he said no, that the only one that could authorize a phone call was the sheriff and that he had gave orders that I wasn’t going to receive any.
Q. Had you been given any phone calls before that time?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Had anybody, any of your friends been allowed to come see you?
A. I wasn’t allowed to see nobody.
Q. Had Ruben and Faye Moore been allowed to see you?
A. Not since ’82, they hadn’t.
Q. Now, when you talked to the jailer there, you told him that you wanted to talk to him about your involvement in the deaths of Kate Rich and Becky, didn’t you?
A. No, I didn’t tell him in those words. I said I had something to tell him.
Q. Okay.
A. Which he stated - - at that time he said, “If it’s what I’m thinking about, you better get on your knees and pray.”
Q. But, Mr. Lucas, my question to you, at the time that he told you that, did you - - did he tell you that before you made any statement to him, that you had a right to remain silent and - -
A. No.
Q. - - before you made any statement to him, that you had the right to a lawyer and that you had a right not to testify against yourself and the other Miranda warnings that I’m sure you’re now familiar with? Did he tell you that at that time?
A. No, he did not.
Q. Did he go and make a telephone call to Sheriff Conway?
A. He did.
Q. And after that telephone call, did he come back and give you a pad and paper?
A. He did, yes.
Q. When he brought you back that pad and paper, did he tell you that you had a right not to incriminate yourself?
A. He never said a word. He just handed me the
paper and pencil.
Q. Did you then write out a three-page statement?
A. I really - -I thought I wrote a six-page statement.
Q. I’ll bring it into evidence later, Mr. Lucas.
But you did write out of a handwritten statement at that time. Is that correct?
I did, yes.
Q. Then there came a time when Sheriff Conway and Phil Ryan came to the jail that evening. Is that correct?
A. That’s right.
Q. When they did, were they given that statement that you had written out?
A. They had already received the statement before they took me out of my cell to their office.
Q. When they received that statement before they brought you to their office, did they tell you that you had a right not to incriminate yourself?
A. No, they did not.
Q. And you gave them a further confession that evening, did you not?
A. I gave them a lot of confessions that evening.
Q. But the confessions you gave them later that evening, Mr. Lucas, were all after your initial three-page handwritten confession. Is that correct?
A. Correct.
Q. Now, after that confession, did you - - do you recall being treated for some medical problems?
A.I wasn’t treated right then. I was later on. I was treated in, I think, June of July for some medical problems, and I was taken to Bowie. I was taken to McCullough and given different medication.
MR. PONTON: I’m going to try to get to El Paso as soon as I can, Your Honor, but I feel that I have to go into some of these preliminary matters.
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) While they were looking at that, Mr. Lucas, let me ask you a question about that pistol.
When you were arrested on June 11th, 1983, by Phil Ryan and Sheriff Conway, they told you they were arresting you for possessing a pistol. Is that correct?
That’s correct. Yes.
Q. Do you know who they got their information from about you possessing that pistol?
A. I didn’t at that particular time, but I knew
From seeing Faye come back and get the gun with the other woman that that’s what it was for.
Q. Now, do you think that he got his information from Faye Moore? A. Well, he showed me two statements after I got back to the jail that was wrote up by Ruben and Faye or supposed to have been.
Q. To your knowledge, did Ruben or Faye Moore ever see you possess that pistol away from that cook shack, which is where you - -
A. They couldn’t have, because I never did it.
Q. Now, I want to show you - -
MR. PONTON: May I approach the witness, Your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes, sir.
Q. (BY MR. PONOTN) What I have here, Mr. Lucas, is some records from the Bowie clinic. Can you tell the Court what county Bowie is in?
A. It’s in Montaque County.
Q. Here’s a physician’s report dated June 16th, 1983, at 7:10 p.m. where the physician says that the - - a Dr. Aujia says he gave you Phenergan 50 milligrams and Demerol 30 milligrams. Can you remember going to the Bowie clinic on that day? And here it is showing that you went there on the 18th of
June and you were given Dalmane for depression.
I remember going.
Q. That you were having suicidal thoughts and things of that nature. Do you remember that?
A. I remember that one, yes.
(Defendant’s exhibit marked, D-18)
MR. PONTON: At this time we would offer Defendant’s Exhibit 18 for purposes of this hearing as the records from the Bowie clinic regarding Mr. Lucas’ treatment for - - with Dalmane and other sedative type drugs.
(Defendant’s exhibit marked, D-19)
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) Now, Mr. Lucas, I want to show you some records that are marked here as Defendant’s Exhibit 19 from the Bowie Memorial Hospital, and these are records that show that you went there on June 18th, signed by Dr. Shatt, and you were treated with Dalmane and you were having suicidal thoughts and the diagnosis was agitated depression.
Can you recall going to the Bowie Memorial Hospital?
I went there, but I thought that was in July.
Q. The records will reflect whatever you were given.
MR. PONTON: So at this time I would offer Defendant’s Exhibit 19 for purposes of this hearing.
MR. MOODY: I have no objection.
(Defendant’s exhibit marked, D-20.)
Q. (BY MR. PONOTN) And while we are at it, I want to show you records from the Wichita Falls hospital showing that you were admitted on June 19th for attempted suicide.
A. That’s a suicide that they said I committed, but I didn’t do it.
Q. But that’s what your diagnosis was when you went there. And it shows that you were treated with Thorazine.
Do you remember going to Wichita Falls hospital?
I can remember going there, yeah.
MR. PONTON: Okay, A this time we would offer the records from the Wichita Falls hospital as Defendant’s Exhibit 20 for purposes of this hearing.
MR. MOODY: No objection to that, Your Honor.
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) While you were there at the jail in Montaque County, were you given Thorazine and other drugs by prescription during the summer of 1983, Mr. Lucas?
A. I was given them from a few days after I was arrested up until 1985.
Q. All right. Now, but please think about my question before you answer it.
My question was: Were you given Thorizine and other drugs while you were an inmate at the Montaque County jail in the summer of 1983?
I was, yes. That’s right.
Q. Now, the - - you testified earlier that on the night of June 15th, 1983, that you gave a confession to Phil Ryan and to Sheriff Conway. Had you been in what is called the cold cell prior to giving this confession?
A. That is where I stayed was what they call a cold cell.
Q. Was this the woman’s cell there at the Montaque County jail?
A. I suppose. I don’t know for sure. I know it was a cell with two empty room in it, and that’s what I was in.
Q. Did they keep you there under an air conditioner?
A. Under a - - I guess under an air conditioner or icebox. I don’t know which it was, but it was cold.
Q. Did they give you a blanket? No.
Q. Did they - - After you gave a confession to them on the cases that they had been investigating you for for nine months - -
A. Yes.
Q. - - did they give you a blanket then?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, you stated that you gave certain confessions to Phil Ryan and W. F. Conway that night. I have here a notebook that I’ll mark as Defendant’s Exhibit 21, which is Ranger Phil Ryan’s notebook, and in here he talks about approximately 77 cases that you confessed to him about.
Does that sound like the cases that you were confessing to him about the night of June 15th and the morning of June 16th, of 1983?
Yes.
(Defendant’s exhibit marked, D-21.)
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) Did you go through a bunch of cases from San Antonio to the East coast to the West coast and all around with Phil Ryan that night and the next morning?
A. I did, yes.
Q. Did you sleep any that night?
A. No.
Q. Would it surprise you, Mr. Lucas, that Texas Ranger Ryan testified here earlier, as you heard, that he couldn’t confirm your involvement in any of these cases except for those of Kate Rich and Becky Powell?
A. Those are all fake cases that I have made up in my head.
Q. All right.
MR. PONTON: At this time I would offer Ranger Ryan’s notebook as Defense Exhibit 21for purposes of this hearing.
MR. MOODY: No objection.
Q. (BY MR. MOODY) Now, Ranger Ryan, as you heard him testify here week before last, said that he began to show you real cases after you had given him 77 cases he couldn’t confirm - - or approximately 77. I can’t remember the exact number, but he testified about it.
He also testified that you gave - - that he would give you a fake case every two or three days to see if you would take it. Do you recall taking it or telling him that you committed these crimes that he would make up every two or three days?
Well, I would tell him I committed all of them. Q. You didn’t know which was fake and which wasn’t?
A. No.
Q. Now - - And that continued all the way through the summer of 1983 in Montaque County, Texas?
A. It did, up until the time I went to that town where I pled guilty to one. O don’t remember where it was.
Q. Now, you have pled guilty or been found guilty in 11 homicides. Is that correct?
A. Most of them I pled on, I guess.
Q. You had a trial for capital murder in Tom Green County on a change of venue from Williamson County in what is known as the orange socks case and that trial was held in February through April of 1984. Is that correct?
A. I’m sure, yeah.
Q. The verdict of the jury in that case was death. Is that correct?
A. That’s what they said, yes.
Q. You had a trial in Denton County in September or August of 1983 and were found guilty in the death of a woman named Frieda Powell. Is that correct?
A. True.
Q. You have also been found guilty in nine other murders in Texas and West Virginia and other states. Is that correct?
A. I haven’t been found guilty. I have pled on them.
Q. You pled guilty?
A. Yeah.
Q. When you pled guilty, the judge found you guilty after you entered a plea of guilty to the charge? A. Right.
Q. One of those was for life without parole from West Virginia. Do you remember being sentenced to that?
A. I do, yeah.
Q. To the other cases, you have got six other life sentences. Do you remember that?
A. Life or years, I don’t know which.
Q. There were two or three that were for 75 years and one for 60 years. Is that correct?
A. True.
Q. So you stand before this Court testifying as a man who at the current time is serving a custody sentence in 10 first-degree felonies, plus you’re awaiting the Court of Criminal Appeals decision on your capital murder conviction. Is that correct?
That’s true, yeah.
Q. Now, there came a time when you left Montaque County to go to Williamson County. Was that in September of 1983? A. No. O went from Montaque County to Denton, Texas.
Q. Let me ask you this: Before you left Montaque County, do you recall seeing a lot of officers up there questioning you about cases you were involved in?
A. I saw officers seven days a week.
Q. And did you try to confess to all the cases they would bring to you?
A. I did, ye.
Q. And did you know at the time that - - Let me ask you this.
Did you ever speak to any officers from El Paso County, Texas, in the summer of 1983 while you were in Montaque County?
I spoke to some officers from El Paso in Montaque County, but I don’t know their names.
Q. And did they ask you about homicides in El Paso?
A. They did, and which I gave them, you know, a Bunch of things that I could make up.
Q. And tell the Court why you were making these things up. Is it what you call legal suicide?
A. No, not at that particular time, it wasn’t. What I was trying to do is get people to open their eyes up to the fact that I had been charged illegally with the gun charge.
Q. And then later you came to be sentenced to several life terms. Is that correct?
A. Correct, yeah.
Q. And at that time did you begin to feel you had nothing more to live for?
A. Well, at that time I didn’t, no.
Q. Now, did - - when did you first go to Williamson County, Texas, with Sheriff Jim Boutwell?
A. In July of ’83.
Q. And did you return down there and again in September of 1983?
A. No, I returned down there in November of ’83.
Q. Okay. And when you returned down there, did it come to pass that they set up what is known as the Texas Ranger task force or the Lucas task force?
A. They did, yeah.
Q. Was it set up by the time you arrived back there in November of ’83? No. They had talked about it, but they hadn’t set it up yet.
Q. But it was set up shortly after that, wasn’t it?
A. Yes, it was.
Q. And who were the members of that task force? A. Myself, Prince - -
Q. You’re talking about Sergeant Bobby Prince? A. Correct.
Q. Is that the Texas Ranger from Waco?
A. Right. And Clayton Smith, a Texas Ranger; Bob Warner, a Texas Ranger.
Q. Is he the chief of the criminal law enforcement for the Department of Public Safety?
A. I guess. I think that’s what he is. I’m not sure. And there was - -
Q. Was the sheriff a member?
A. Sheriff Boutwell was, yes.
Q. There was a secretary, too, wasn’t there?
A. Yeah, a girl named Jill. I don’t remember her last name.
Q. Now, the task force was created for people to interview you about cases. Is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, how many - - by the time this task force was set up in November or December of ’83, do you have any idea how many cases you had confessed to by that time? A. I Would estimate probably 150.
Q. And a good half of those or so, would those be the cases that had actually occurred, I other words, where a police officer had a file and a date and a victim and he was asking you about specific details?
A. It was some of them, yes. I would say probably 50 of them.
Q. 50 of them were like that? A. Yes.
Q. Would that mean that maybe 100 of them were made up?
A. True.
Q. By you? A. Yes.
Q. Like the ones that I showed you in Defendant’s Exhibit 21, Texas Phil Ryan’s notebook?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, of those 50 that you had confessed to that were from actual victims, did you know base on some of the dates that the officers were telling you at the time that you couldn’t have committed those crimes because you were someplace else?
At the particular time I knew I Was somewhere else because I Knew I hadn’t committed them.
Q. Now, by December of 1983 had you discussed with Texas Ranger Phil Ryan or Sheriff Jim Boutwell or Texas Ranger Bob Prince where you had actually lived over the past eight years between your release from prison in 1975 and your arrest in June of 1983?
A. I had discussed it with Sheriff Boutwell. I also gave them - - Phil Ryan a complete description of where I was at. And I had gave my attorney in - - which was in the orange socks case, I had gave him a complete detail, which he turned over to the prosecutor and the sheriff.
Q. And this was of where you actually had been during that period of time. Is that correct? A. True, yes.
Q. Now, do you know if by the end of 1983 whether or not the members of the Texas Ranger task force had told you they had been able to confirm any of that?
A. Well, I know they had, because they went and got the check stubs and everything that I had and they went and got all the car records where I was at. They got the addresses and everything where I was at, so I know they investigated it.
Q. And what check stubs are you referring to, MR. Lucas? A. The Southeast Color Coat Roofing Company.
Q. And that is in Jacksonville, Florida, where you were working?
A. Right.
Q. And those were the check stubs from your paychecks on a weekly basis?
A. Right. And they had the check stubs where I worked in Pennsylvania at the mushroom companies.
Q. That was Kaolin mushroom farms. IS that correct? A. Right.
Q. They got information on your getting a driver’s license and registering a car in Stoneburg, Texas, in May of 1983?
A. They had, yes.
Q. Did they discuss these things with you? And I’m talking about during the time frame up through December of 1983.
A. They wasn’t a day went by that they didn’t ask somewhere where I was at. And I would tell them. If I was someplace, they would check it out.
Q. And when they would talk with you about this,
Mr. Lucas, would they come back to you with information, documentation and ask you if you could identify it or if it was correct? Would they do things like that?
They would, yeah.
Q. Now, the Texas Ranger task force set up interviews with you how many days a week?
A. It was seven days a week, and then I told them I couldn’t take it and so they knocked it down to five days a week.
Q. How many hours a day would they have you confessing to these cases? A. Well, seven days a week. Sometimes I would be up, at least, I would say, four out of seven days I would be up four days and nights.
Q. You would work through the night sometime?
A. Right.
Q. And were most of these interviews, did most of these interviews take place at the Williamson County jail? A. The most of them did, yeah. That’s where they would send the files and stuff.
Q. Now, you talk about sending a file to the Williamson County jail. Do you recall if when you would have these interviews, would these interviews
be with the Texas Rangers interviewing you or would they be with an officer from a city where a crime had occurred? A. They would be with the Texas Rangers.
Q. Would they interview you about a crime before someone would come from the city to interview you?
A. Almost all the time they would because they wanted to know ahead of time whether I was responsible for it or whether I wasn’t.
Q. And when you say whether you were responsible for it, they wanted to know whether or not you would claim responsibility for it?
A. Right, yeah.
Q. And would that be so they wouldn’t have somebody come there on a dry run?
A. True.
Q. Do you know if the Texas Rangers would request that these investigating agencies send a synopsis of the crime and photographs of the crime scene and of the victim to them so they could show those to you before they would set up an interview?
A. Well, they would send a synopsis report. They would send all crime photographs, regardless of What shape the body was in or anything else. They would send it to me.
Q. And who would discuss these with you prior to the Texas Rangers setting up an interview for the officer from the agency to come out there?
A. Most all interviews was done with Clayton Smith unless Clayton had to be off somewhere, and then it would be done by the sheriff or Bob Prince.
Q. And tell me how these interviews would go with Clayton Smith, and I’m talking about the preliminary interviews before an officer would come out there.
A. Well - -
Q. Would he have the file of - - the synopsis or a photograph or something?
A. He had the synopsis report, which he would come out to a table about like what they are sitting at there. And I would be sitting on one side of the table and he would be on the other and he would lay the folder out there with the synopsis reports and the pictures.
Q. And would you either read the synopsis report or discuss it with him at that time?
A. We would discuss it, yeah. He would be reading to see what he could ask me questions out of,
And I would be reading it so that he would know - - I would know what to answer him. I was reading it upside down. He was reading it the other way.
MR. PONOTN: May I approach the witness, Your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes, sir.
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) I want to show you what has been marked as Defendant’s Exhibit 10 and entered into evidence for purposes of this hearing. Can you identify the two persons in that photograph?
A. Yeah, that’s Clayton Smith and myself.
Q. Okay. And can you tell what you-all are looking at in that photograph?
A. That’s a synopsis report on a homicide.
Q. Is that a file or something that you-all were looking at there?
A. Yes.
Q. And is that the way that the Texas Rangers would carry out many of the preliminary interviews with you prior to arranging an interview for an officer to come visit you there at the task force?
A. All the interviews would be done on the same basis, and they would make tape recordings of what I was saying and then what he would be saying and which they would make a report out to send back to the Agency. And they would state on the report whether they felt that I was responsible for a crime or I wasn’t, and then they would send it back.
Q. Okay. And then if they stated that they thought that you might be responsible for the crime, would they set up an interview for that agency to come talk to you?
A. Yes.
Q. And at that time would the agency come to Williamson County to interview you?
A. He would, but it would take him three of four months to get there because that’s how far backlogged they was.
Q. You has such a backlog of people to see you.
Now, when that person from a local agency would come out to see you, would that person - - that person wouldn’t know that you and Clayton Smith had gone through the file, would they?
A. He would know that I went through the file, but he wouldn’t know that I knew what was in the file.
Q. So he would come out there. When a local investigating agency person would come out there, he would think that you had told Clayton Smith about the crime without being told anything about it. Would that be right? True, because all we done was make an audio. We didn’t make no video.
Q. So he couldn’t see on a videotape that might be sent back to him that you were looking at a file, maybe, when you were making an audiotape?
A. No, he couldn’t.
Q. Now, these audiotapes you would make, would you be making those while you and Clayton Smith were going through his file?
A. Yes.
Q. Then after that audiotape would be sent back to the agency, would an interview be set up?
A. They would make the arrangements through Bob Prince to set an interview up.
Q. And I want to show you what has been marked - - what I’ll mark as Defendant’s Exhibit 22, which is a copy of the task force interview log put together at the Williamson County jail.
(Defendant’s exhibit marked, D-22)
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) Did you ever see this?
A. This is the log where they would have to sign and state how many cases they cleared or what cases they were clearing, and they would have to sign those as they came in to interview me.
Q. That was the whole purpose, they were trying to clear cases. Isn’t that correct?
Right, yes.
Q. And they would - - was there any kind of camaraderie you could observe or any kind of good spirits that you could observe among the law enforcement officers when they could get a bunch of cleared cases in a day from you?
A. Well, they would go out and celebrate at nighttime.
Q. They would go out and celebrate at night if you would clear a bunch of cases for them during the day?
A. True.
Q. Would you see that they would ever get mad or upset with you if you wouldn’t clear cases? A. Oh, I have had that happen, yes. I have been plainly told when I go into an interview I go in there and clear cases. I don’t go in there no to clear them.
Q. For instance, Mr. Lucas, were you ever told by Sergeant Bobby Prince what would happen if you stopped clearing cases - -
A. Yes, I have.
Q. - - for the Texas Ranger task force?
A. I have by Bobby Prince and Sheriff Boutwell.
Q. What was it that Bobby Prince told you would happen to you if you quit clearing cases for the Texas Rangers?
A. Well, he said my goose would be cooked and I would be sent to Huntsville, and I wouldn’t be allowed no visitors and I wouldn’t be allowed no nothing that I had in my cell and I would be treated just like any other inmate.
Q. I want to read to you, Mr. Lucas, an article which is an interview with Jim Boutwell, the sheriff of Williamson County, Texas, and Sergeant Bob Prince which was printed in the September 24th, 1984, Law Enforcement News. And the day of publication, I might add, I four days after you confessed to killing Librada Apodaca.
And after I read this I want to ask you if if he ever told you this, and I’m quoting from page 14 of the interview by - - and this is Bob Prince speaking.
“We have explained to Lucas that as long as he is giving us information that we can confirm, we can keep him here. When he gets to the point where he has no more information or he doesn’t want to talk with us anymore, death row is waiting for him down there at the penitentiary.” He told me that, yes.
Q. He told you that on more than one occasion, didn’t he?
A. Just about every time I would go out somewhere, he would tell me what was in store unless I came back with some cases solved or I would continue to confess to them.
MR. PONTON: We would offer this as Defendant’s Exhibit 22 at this time for purposes of this hearing, Your Honor.
I have - -
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) Wait. Let me ask the questions here, Mr. Lucas.
Now, let’s go into a little bit the way you were living in the summer of 1983 - - Excuse me - - the spring of 1983 at the House of Prayer. How were you employed?
Well, I worked sometimes. Most of the time I would have to spend there at the House of Prayer because jobs I had been refused because of the Sheriff of Montaque County.
Q. Because people in the area knew that he was investigating you. Is that correct?
A. True.
Q. And how much money were you making at that time a month, can you estimate?
Sometimes I might make $10, sometimes I might make $30.
Q. You wouldn’t make much money. Are you talking about a day or a month?
A. A month.
Q. So you wouldn’t make very much money at all?
A. No.
Q. That’s not enough to live on, is it, Mr. Lucas?
A. No.
Q. How did you survive or that did you eat, for instance? Please tell the Court what you ate.
A. Well, Ruben, he would furnish some of the food. And whenever I would get money, I would give it back to him. But I was living mostly at that time off of cheese and peanut butter.
Q. Is this a good - - This photograph of you marked and entered into evidence as Defendant’s Exhibit 15, is this a good picture of the way you looked shortly after your arrest in Montaque County?
A. Yes.
Q. Is that about what you looked like in June of 19 - -
A. Maybe a little worser than that, because I Think they washed that shirt since then.
Q. Now, there came a time when you started to live a little better than that in Williamson County. Isn’t that correct, Mr. Lucas?
A. I lived good in Williamson County.
Q. How - - Is this a good photograph in Defendant’s exhibit 13 of your jail cell there in Williamson County?
A. Well, yeah.
Q. Is that a photograph that has all the paintings in it and all the - - and the television?
A. True.
Q. Radio?
A. That’s not half of the stuff I had in that cell.
Q. Now, how much stuff did you have in your little room at the chicken shack at the House of Prayer, Mr. Lucas?
A. I had a bed, part of a TV set, part of a coffee pot. And that was it.
Q. Did the TV set work?
A. Yeah, it worked, but the case was all busted all to pieces on it.
Q. And that was all you had in there?
A. That’s it.
Q. You had a lot more things in your cell in Williamson County than that, didn’t you?
A. I did, yeah.
Q. Did you have to pay for any of these things that I can identify in Defendant’s Exhibit 13? Did you have to pay for the television set or the painting supplies or the radio or the books or the posters on the wall or the clothing, the fresh, clean and pressed clothing that you were wearing? Did you have to pay for any of that?
A. No.
Q. Now, what did you eat at Williamson County, Mr. Lucas?
A. Well, most of the time I would eat hamburgers. And when I would go out, why, I would go out and get steak or whatever I wanted.
Q. Now, when you say you would go out, would you just walk out the front door and go where you wanted or would you - -
A. No, I would be escorted, but I could go anyplace I wanted.
Q. And who would escort you? Would it be Clayton Smith?
A. Well, the sheriff, Clayton Smith and Bob Prince, too. All three of them did.
Q. Would this be to go to local restaurants around Williamson County or in Georgetown, Texas?
A. Yes.
Q. Were you fond of going to the Sonic to get a hamburger?
A. I’d go there every change I’d get because they make good hamburgers.
Q. Hamburgers is one of your favorite foods, isn’t it, Mr. Lucas?
A. Yes.
Q. Were hamburgers better than the peanut butter and cheese in Montaque?
A. A whole lot better.
Q. What about the food at the jail, Mr. Luca, what would - - would you eat whatever anybody else ate there?
A. No, I had my own food in this jail.
Q. What do you mean you had your own food at the jail? I don’t see a refrigerator here in your cell.
A. No, but they had it downstairs.
Q. I see.
A. They had all the food kept downstairs, but they would by me special food.
Q. Who would buy you special food, Mr. Lucas? The sheriff.
Q. And what kind of food would that be? Would you make requests for special food?
A. Yeah, I get to request. They’d buy me gallons of milk or hamburger or steak or whatever I wanted. All I had to do was ask for it and I would get it.
Q. Any kind of food you would ask for within reason they would give you. Isn’t that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Would they feed it to you pretty much anytime that you wanted it?
A. Anytime I wanted it, no matter what time of night or day.
Q. Would you have to eat with the other prisoners at the same time they ate?
A. No.
Q. So you would eat whenever you wanted?
A. Yes.
Q. And you would eat whatever you wanted to eat?
A. Yes. Anything, yeah.
Q. Now, who provided you those clothes that I see here in Defendant’s Exhibit 13, Mr. Lucas?
A. The sheriff gave me some of them and Clemmie Schroeder gave me some of them.
Q. Now Clemmie Schroeder is a - - was a woman who had a jail ministry there at the jail, at the Williamson County jail. Is that correct?
A. She did, yes.
Q. And you and her became friends, did you not?
A. Yes.
Q. And she would come there and pray with all the inmates?
A. She would, yeah.
Q. And would the sheriff let her sit and visit with you?
A. She could visit anytime, anytime of the night or day. She stayed in my cell probably - - sometimes 18 hours a day.
Q. And she would advise you as to her Christian beliefs - -
A. Yes.
Q. - - and things of that nature. Is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, would anybody at the jail be given the opportunity to visit with their friends up to 18 hours a day?
A. No. They only had - - You could come in on Saturdays for two hours, I think it was.
Q. And could Ms. Schroeder come in seven days a week if she wanted to?
A. She could come in anytime she wanted. That was the sheriff’s orders.
Q. Now, you enjoyed her visits, did you not?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, did Sheriff Boutwell or Sergeant Prince ever tell you that they would keep her from seeing you if you didn’t confess?
A. They did, but they regretted it later.
Q. Did there come a time when they said if you wouldn’t confess to certain things that they wouldn’t let you see her?
A. They did, yes.
Q. When was that, Mr. Lucas?
A. One time when - - about this case out here and some other cases that was involved at that time.
Q. When you say, “this case out here,” are you referring to the case that you’re accused of committing here in El Paso County?
A. Yes.
Q. The case here, cause number 43341 in the120th District Court involving a woman named Librada Apodaca?
A. Yes.
Q. And was that a threat that you couldn’t see Clemmie Schroeder unless you made certain statements in connection with this case?
A. That’s true, yes.
Q. Now, you would - -
MR. PONTON: When does Your Honor wish to take the afternoon break, if he is going to take one?
THE COURT: Well, are you ready, MR. Ponton? Are you going to take over the Court now.
MR. PONTON: Well, I’m at a neutral stopping point, but I can continue. Whatever Your Honor wishes.
THE COURT: Well, if you’re ready, let’s take a break. We will take a break. Mr. Ponton is ready to take a break, ladies and gentlemen.
(A brief recess was taken.)
THE COURT: Mr. Ponton, are you ready to proceed?
MR. PONTON: Yes, Your Honor, I am.
THE COURT: I had a - - The Court Reporter said that I had never ruled on the admission of those exhibits that you introduced, and I was under the impression that you had not requested their admittance. However, if you have requested it - -
MR. PONTON: I will do so now. I move that Defendant’s Exhibits - -
THE COURT: It would be 18 through 22 - -
MR. PONTON: - - be admitted into evidence for purposes of this hearing.
THE COURT: Now, Mr. Moody, do you have any objection or do you know which ones we are talking about?
MR. MOODY: Yes, I know which ones you’re talking about, Your Honor. I have no objection for purposes of this hearing.
THE COURT: Thank you. They will be admitted.
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) Now, Mr. Lucas, the treatment you received at the Williamson County jail would not - - would continue if you went out on crime scene trips during the time the Texas Rangers task force was in operation. Is that correct?
A. That’s true, yes.
Q. Can you tell the Court the number of states you flew to while you were under the custody of the Texas Rangers at the Williamson County jail?
A. I can try. There was Arkansas, Louisiana twice, California, West Virginia and - - Let’s see. Well, I flew all over Texas. I don’t think there
Isn’t a spot in Texas I haven’t been.
Q. How did you fly to these other states, Mr. Lucas?
A. I flew in the governor’s planes from the other states. It’s aircraft where the governor would use - -
Q. That was - - Sometimes those were jets, private business type jet airplanes, were they not?
A. The one from West Virginia was, and the other one from California was a Beechcraft.
Q. Can you estimate how many airplanes you rode in while you were a member of the Texas Ranger task force? Would it have been in excess of a dozen?
A. More than that.
Q. Now, had you ever ridden in an airplane before you got involved with the Texas Rangers? A. Once when I flew from Michigan to Maryland.
Q. And that was the day you were released from prison in 1975. IS that correct?
A. Correct, yeah.
Q. And you have never flown on any other kind of plane before that?
A. No.
Q. There were times - - Were there ever times when you would tell the Texas Rangers that you didn’t want to go to crime scenes?
There has been a lot of times I told them that.
Q. What would happen when they would tell you that, Mr. Lucas?
A. I would get called on the bench and told how I was to do or else go to prison.
Q. And when you say, “called on the bench,” what do you mean, they’d call you in a room and talk to you?
A. Call me in the sheriff’s office.
Q. And?
A. And I’d get plainly told I’d either go on with my confessions and so what the rangers and them told me while I was out on call or I would go to death row and that would be that.
Q. And would they imply to you that when you went to death row you would be executed?
A. They had implied it, yeah.
Q. Now, was there ever a time when you would not want to go on any of those trips unless certain things were done for your benefit?
A. It was, yes.
Q. Such as a trip to California?
A. True.
Q. Can you tell the Court what requirements you had before you would fly to California with the Texas Rangers?
A. I told them I would not stay in a jail and I would not be without my TV and I would not be with coffee and smoke whenever I wanted to.
Q. Did they ever tell you you couldn’t smoke on that airplane?
A. They did to start with, and then they changed after I gave them what I wanted.
Q. After they gave you what you wanted, what your demands were, then did you agree to go out to California with them?
A. I did.
Q. And did you visit crime scenes in California?
A. I did.
Q. Did you make certain confessions to crimes while you were out there in California?
A. I did.
Q. Now, when you would go on these trips out of town, where would you eat?
A. Restaurants.
Q. Who did you eat with?
A. With the rest of the people.
Q. Would these people always include Texas Rangers?
No, they would be civilians, regular population, civilians.
Q. I mean, the people you would go to the restaurant with. I mean, when you left Texas, Mr. Lucas, for out-of-state trips, in other words, was a Texas Ranger always with you?
A. Yes, at all times.
Q. When you left Georgetown to go to different places in Texas, was a member of the Texas Rangers always with you?
A. Always. It was their responsibility.
Q. And when you would leave, you would go eat in restaurants with the Texas Rangers and the local investigating agencies. Is that correct?
A. True.
Q. And would these trips that would occur after these agencies had come to Georgetown to interview you?
A. The only one that I can remember going out on that they didn’t interview me until I got out, and that was one where I went to California.
Q. And do you know if any of those cases that you tried to confess to in California are still considered cleared? I think so, yes.
Q. Okay. Now, for the Court’s benefit, when you talk about going out to a crime scene, that would really be the third time that you would talk about a case. Is that correct?
A. Correct, yeah.
Q. The first somebody, usually they would mail a synopsis in with a photograph of the victim and you and Clayton Smith would go over that together. Is that correct?
A. Generally it would be three times. A lot of times it would be more than that because different agencies would bring the same crime in.
Q. And they wouldn’t know that other agency had brought it in?
A. No.
Q. But you would have an initial interview with a Texas Ranger. Is that true?
A. Yes.
Q. Then somebody would come to Williamson County to interview you?
A. True.
Q. Now, when that local investigating agent would come to Williamson County, would you go over that file with anybody before you would be interviewed by that agent?
Yeah. I have done it. Most of the time they would come in and they would stay in there for maybe 15 or 20 minutes discussing what my rules are about questioning me, and then they would take me down and they would bring me in the office.
And I have never gave them any confession which I told them ahead of tome that I didn’t do them.
Q. What you’re saying is that you always told them you didn’t do them?
A. That’s correct.
Q. The Texas Rangers?
A. Well, to them, too, when they would come into the office.
Q. But my question, Mr. Lucas, is that you would - - would you go over - - say somebody from El Paso would come to interview you in Williamson County.
A. Yeah.
Q. That person from El Paso, would that person from El Paso have sent a synopsis of the case to Williamson County ahead of time?
A. Some of them I believe they did, yeah.
Q. Some of them?
A. On certain cases. I don’t know that cases they were, yeah.
Q. Excuse me, MR. Lucas. Some cases they would? A. Yeah.
Q. Not in every case, but in many of the cases they would send a synopsis and a photograph?
A. True, yeah.
Q. Would a member of the Texas Rangers go through that with you?
A. Yes.
Q. Then he would send back a statement and a tape to the agent, for instance, here in El Paso possibly saying that you had been involved. Is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And then that person from that local agency, for instance, El Paso, would go to Williamson County to interview you?
A. Right.
Q. When they got to Williamson County, would there be any kind of preinterview with you between you and the Texas Rangers or you with the local agent regarding the facts of the case before you would start a confession interview with the local agent?
A. That was every time, okay? Always.
Q. And tell me - - please tell the Court what you mean by that kind of preinterview. Well, before they turned the tapes on or videotapes, they would sit down and go over the entire case with me to see whether or not I could give them any kind of information on it. And when I would give somebody a - - maybe one or two things out of the whole thing, they would sit there and tape that whole confession then.
Q. So there would be a period of time where the tape recorder wouldn’t be on and you and the local agent would discuss the case?
A. Sometimes all morning. We might discuss it all morning and then that afternoon they would tape the confession.
Q. Would - - Do you know if the Texas Rangers ever requested that these local agents provide certain details to you during the interview?
A. That was one of the things, yes.
Q. What kind of details would these local agents have to provide to you during the interview?
A. The pictures or a crime scene, pictures of an area where the crime happened, the type of crime it was, and sometimes they would give me the year and sometimes they wouldn’t.
Q. And then after you had that, they would begin the interview with you? Yes.
Q. Would there be times when you would remember the details of the crime based upon the synopsis interview that you had previously?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, when you would come to crime scenes, that would then be in general the third time that you had gone over the case with the investigating agents. Is that correct?
A. Correct, yeah.
Q. Now, you testified here earlier that you talked to an officer from El Paso while you were in jail in Montaque County in the summer of 1983.
A. I did. I can describe him to you, but I don’t know him.
Q. Would you please describe him to me?
A. He is about my height, about 180 pounds, sort of grayish hair, white guy.
Q. And do you recall whether or not you had any discussion with him regarding the death of Librada Apodaca or the death of - - actually the axe murder of an elderly Mexican-American female here in El Paso County?
A. I had some talk of it, but he said he didn’t work the case and he didn’t want to get into too much detail because he wanted to give the local people a chance to come themselves.
Q. And do you know where he was getting his information from regarding the case?
A. Yeah, out of a folder that the police agencies have. It’s a book with all types of crimes in it that - - what they call flyers, I guess is what you call them.
Q. Is that like a little one-page wanted poster or a little one-page - -
A. Yeah.
Q. - - information about the crime?
A. Right.
Q. You saw a lot of those during the time you were in custody of the Texas Rangers, didn’t you?
A. I saw just about everything there was, yeah.
Q. Do you know if they brought you a lot of these unsolved crimes from around the country based on those wanted flyers?
A. Yes. That’s where they would notify the authorities from was them wanted posters.
Q. Now, the - - there came a time that you had telephone conversations with a couple of officers on El Paso related cases. Do you remember that?
A. I had three phone calls, but - - I know they were officers from here, but I don’t remember what they were.
Q. Do you remember a phone call on July 15th, 1983, from a couple of deputy sheriffs from southern New Mexico by the name of Archuleta and Engelking?
A. Yes, I remember those.
Q. Do you remember them calling you while up in Montaque County, Texas?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you remember them asking you about unsolved murders and homicides from El Paso?
A. They did, yes.
Q. Do you remember them asking you if you were involved in the disappearance of a couple of girls whose - - I think one body would have been found east of El Paso and another one up in the White Sands area or - - east of Las Cruces?
A. We had talked about them, yes.
Q. East of Las Cruses. And you tried to discuss with them that you were involved in those cases, didn’t you?
A. Yes.
Q. And at that time, six weeks after the death of Librada Apodaca, did you tell either one of those officers that you had killed Librada Apodaca at theend of May of ’83 six - -
No, I hadn’t.
Q. And there came a time, did there not, when you had occasion to speak with a private investigator from El Paso?
A. I spoke with him, yes, but I don’t know his name.
Q. And - - Mike Lee. Does that refresh your memory?
A. Lee does. That’s about all.
Q. What did he look like?
A. He is a short, real heavy-bearded guy, chubby, short, I would say in his late 50’s.
Q. And when do you recall talking to him?
A. Well, I talked to him on two different occasions. I talked to him not too long after I was arrested. I think it was about three, four weeks after I was arrested I talked to him. And he came back to El Paso and then he came back again and talked to me.
Q. And that would have been the summer of 1983?
A. Right.
Q. And he first talked to you, then, near the end of June of 1983?
A. Right around either the end of June or the middle of June.
Q. And he was investigating the disappearance of a red-headed woman here in El Paso, wasn’t he?
A. Correct.
Q. Did you tell him anything about being involved in the murder of Librada Apodaca, an elderly Mexican female who had been killed with an axe here in El Paso at the end of May?
A. No, I didn’t give him that one. I gave him all the other ones.
Q. You gave him all the ones he asked about?
A. All the other - - I gave him every case he asked about. I told him I was involved.
Q. Did he ask you about the death of Librada Apodaca?
A. I don’t - - I can’t say positive he did, because I think it was after that that I found out about the Apodaca woman.
Q. But you confessed to him to murders in El Paso County, didn’t you?
A. I think I got them all. I’m not sure.
Q. And then later, in July, you confessed to a couple of murders to the New Mexico Investigators Archuleta and Engelking, didn’t you?
A. True, yeah.
Q. And then in the fall of 1983, you talked with a couple of El Paso investigators, one of whim was Greg Lucas whom you saw up here in the stand. Do you remember that?
A. Yes.
Q. Who else did you talk to regarding El Paso cases in 1983?
A. Well, I talked to that gray-headed guy that I was talking about.
Q. Yes.
A. He drove an Dodge police car. It was about to fall apart, it seemed like, when I rode around in it.
And I talked to the investigator. I talked to two other police officers that was on the stand here. I talked to both of them. I talked to Apodaca.
Q. No, I’m talking about in 1983. I want you to try to remember who you talked to from the El Paso area.
A. Well, the FBI was up there from El Paso.
Q. They were investigating the possible disappearance of somebody whose body would have been found on the White Sands Missile Range in federal jurisdiction?
A. No, they were investigating a murder that Took place over here next to the air base over here.
Q. Oh, Fort Bliss?
A. Yeah.
Q. And do you know if you told them that you were involved in that case?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you make any statement to them about killing Librada Apodaca?
A. No.
Q. Now, when - - do you remember when Greg Lucas came to Williamson County right before Christmas in 1983?
A. I vaguely - - I remembered him and another man come down there.
Q. And you-all had a taped interview at that time, didn’t you?
A. Sure did.
Q. You made certain confessions to him about some El Paso cases?
A. Cases I had learned about in El Paso, yeah.
Q. Now, at that time was he asking you about El Paso, any unsolved murders that he had in El Paso?
A. He was asking me about all of them, I guess. I don’t know exactly how many there were. There was about seven or eight, somewhere in between seven, eight, or nine, something like that.
Q. Was he asking you to tell him about any and all murders that you were involved in in El Paso County, Texas?
A. Yeah, because he said if he had any more, he could look them up.
Q. Do you recall telling him anything about the death of Librada Apodaca?
A. No, I don’t.
Q. Okay. Now, you came to El Paso on February 13th, 1984, to look at some supposed crime scene sites with Greg Lucas. Do you remember that?
A. I remember this, yeah.
Q. Did you have a lawyer when you came to El Paso?
A. I had one in Georgetown.
Q. Did you ever have a lawyer from El Paso to advise you on your legal rights as to confessing to El Paso County cases?
A. No.
Q. Did you consult with an attorney there in Williamson County prior to coming out here in February of ’84?
A. No, I didn’t.
Q. You went to several crime scene sites that day. Do you remember that?
I went to approximately five the first day, and I think it was four the second day.
Q. And do you know if you were able to lead the investigators to where any bodies were supposedly buried?
A. I have never led them to a crime scene, never. They have taken me to crime scenes, but I have never led them.
Q. Now, I’m talking about El Paso, Mr. Lucas.
A. Well, that’s what I’m talking about.
Q. When you say, “never,” you’re referring to that you never led them in El Paso to any crime scenes. Is that correct?
A. Right.
Q. Now, when - - do you recall in September of 1984 going to Monahans, Texas, to talk about cases with Texas Rangers and other investigating agencies there?
A. I do, yeah.
Q. And in September of 1984, approximately how long had you been involved with the Texas Ranger task force? Would that have been about 10 months, 11 months at the time?
A. I would say close to it.
Q. And when you flew to Monahans, Texas, that day, were you in a DPS aircraft?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you go up to Red Bluff Lake that day or was that the next day?
A. That was the day before. We would have been on that aircraft flying from different places. And I had come in from - - Well, that was my fifth day in there flying around. And we had come into Monahans late that evening. And so I would have to say, yeah, it was somewhere in that area, but I don’t remember exactly the name of the lakes or anything.
Q. How many days do you remember being on the road when you finally got to Monahans?
A. That was my fifth day.
Q. And where would you sleep when you were on the road on trips like that?
A. Sometimes I would stay at a jail and sometimes I would fly. We would fly night and day.
Q. And had you slept much in the previous days before you talked to Lieutenant Jerry Smith there in Monahans? I hadn’t slept any since I left Georgetown.
Q. And do you remember talking with Lieutenant Jerry Smith from the Odessa Police Department - -
A. Yeah, I remember Jerry.
Q. - - the evening of September 18th, 1984?
A. Yes, I remember.
Q. Now, did you have a lawyer there when you were talking to him?
A. No, I didn’t have nobody there.
Q. Did the Texas Rangers make any lawyer available to you that day to advise you as to your legal rights before confessing?
A. No.
Q. In September of 1984, your orange socks case was over. Is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you have a lawyer?
A. I still had one that they appointed to go with me on cases, yes.
Q. When you say go with you on cases, was he with you that day?
A. No.
Q. Who was that?
A. Mr. Higginbotham.
Q. He was your lawyer appointed on the orange socks case, wasn’t he?
Yes.
Q. Now, when Jerry Smith interviewing you, was he interviewing you about a woman named Sandlin from Odessa, a victim from Odessa, Texas?
A. If I remember right, he was - -
Q. Excuse me. Not - - I have the wrong name. It’s - - I don’t recall the name, Mr. Lucas, but do you recall him asking you about the death of a woman in a trailer in Odessa?
A. Not then he wasn’t, because that case was already cleared then.
Q. As having been committed by you?
A. Yes.
Q. Who was he talking about?
A. A girl that - - who had disappeared from the Midland-Odessa area.
Q. Yes.
A. I don’t recall her name. But I had told him that I was good for it, but I never could show him where she was at.
Q. Now, Mr. Lucas, he interviewed you there at the Monahans jail, didn’t he?
A. He did.
Q. And he asked you about several cases and then he asked you about the El Paso case, didn’t he?
True, yes.
Q. He didn’t give you any warnings that day even, did he, before he asked you about that?
A. No, he did not.
Q. Do you remember if you signed anything?
A. I didn’t sign nothing, not with him.
Q. So by the time he got around to talking with you, you just sat down with him and you just started talking with him about his things he was asking you about. Is that correct?
A. Yeah, we just - - he asked me, you know, if I was guilty of it. And I said, “Well, I don’t know. I would have to see some detail on it.” And he gave me the detail.
Q. And is that what he did regarding the case of Librada Apodaca?
A. Yes.
Q. And I got - - I’m going to read the first sentence that he stated to you about this case on September 18th, 1984, and ask you if you remember this.
“Another deal I wanted to ask you about, which the people out of El Paso visiting with me and asked me to visit with you and see, right before you got locked up in probably a week or so, had an old, old Mexican lady chopped up with an axe in her house, a gray-headed old lady.”
Do you remember him asking you about that?
Yes.
Q. Now, the tape of that interview you heard played here in court, didn’t you?
A. Yes.
Q. And you heard Lieutenant Smith say the first part of that had been erased?
A. True, it had.
Q. Did the first part of that contain any warnings?
A. No, it did not.
Q. When I say, “warnings,” you know that I’m referring to the Miranda warnings warning you of your Fifth Amendment right not to incriminate yourself prior to being interrogated in custody. You’re aware of those? A. True. It contained - - The only thing it contained was about that girl up there in Midland.
Q. And that was the only thing on the beginning of that tape?
A. True.
Q. Now, the - - at the time you made the statement on September 18th, 1984, had you had any run-ins by that time with Sergeant Bob Prince or Jim Boutwell regarding your not wanting to give more confessions?
Yes, I had.
Q. And had you told them that?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And what was their response to you prior to this confession on September 18th, 1984?
A. I Was told that I would have to cooperate with the task force, and if I didn’t cooperate with the task force that I would be sent to death row.
Q. Did they tell you that if you didn’t cooperate they would stop feeding you whatever you wanted at the Williamson County jail?
A. Yes, they did.
Q. Did they tell you that if you stopped cooperating with them that you would stop driving out to these crime scenes with all these other people?
A. He told me I would not go anywhere except to Huntsville and I would lose all my visitation rights, I’d lose everything I had.
Q. Had you ever lived better in your life than you did while you were a member of the Texas Ranger task force? No, I didn’t.
Q. Had you ever had as much, as many things, as many paints and television sets or clothes and things like that before you were involved with the Texas Ranger task force?
A. No. I had my own car, stuff like that, but that’s it.
Q. Now, the special privileges you were given by the Texas Ranger task force ended when, Mr. Lucas?
A. The day I went to Waco.
Q. And that would have been in April of 1985. Is that correct?
A. February or April, somewhere around in there.
Q. February, okay.
A. I don’t remember exactly.
Q. That was when you stopped confessing?
A. That’s it.
Q. You eventually appeared before the McLennan County Grand Jury, didn’t you?
A. Yes.
Q. You told the McLennan County Grand Jury that all of your confessions to these cases were false because of the way the Texas Rangers were treating you. Is that correct?
A. Correct, yes, sir.
Q. Now, on September 19th, 1984, do you recall going to some crime scenes that day?
A. September?
Q. That was the day after Monahans and that was the day you ended up in Sierra Blanca that night.
A. Yeah, I remember.
Q. Did you go out to a couple of ranches that day?
A. Yeah.
Q. Did you go - -
A. I went out there with some guy. I don’t remember who he was.
Q. And did you go out to a ranch with somebody where an old rancher was supposedly killed out by his barn?
A. It wasn’t supposed to be a rancher. It was supposed to be somebody from El Paso here.
Q. That was killed on a ranch out there somewhere around Sierra Blanca?
A. True.
Q. Did you try to show them where it happened?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Didn’t they say you were off quite a bit?
A. Quite a ways, yeah.
Q. Now, do you remember a couple of officers
From El Paso coming to Sierra Blanca to interview you late in the afternoon that day? A. Yeah, it was Perez and Apodaca.
Q. Now, was that the day you learned when this crime occurred or would that have been the next day here in El Paso?
A. Well, it had been the same day, except it was earlier in the - - that afternoon, because I learned about it, it was about - - pretty close to 12:00, I guess, that night, the night before.
Q. From Jerry Smith?
A. Yeah.
Q. Now, at the time that you gave that statement to Jerry Smith and at the time that the - - that you gave the interview, the confession to Benito Perez and Jimmy Apodaca on September 19th, did the Texas Rangers know where you were on May 27th, 1983?
A. Yes.
Q. Where was that?
A. Montaque County.
Q. And you had told that information to the Texas Rangers many times before this time, didn’t you? I had, and they had checked it out.
Q. And as a matter of fact, were you aware that there were some DPS documents that were created that said you didn’t leave Stoneburg until June 4th?
A. Yes, I am.
Q. Now, do you remember the Texas Rangers telling Benito Perez or Jimmy Apodaca that they knew or they had information in their possession that showed that you were in Montaque County on the day Librada Apodaca was killed? A. Not in front of me they didn’t, no.
Q. Do you remember Jimmy Apodaca or Benito Perez ever telling you that they had that information?
A. No.
Q. Did you have a lawyer with you in Sierra Blanca, Texas, on September 19th, 1984?
A. No.
Q. You were given certain rights on the tape that was heard taken on September 19th, 1984, at the beginning of that confession. Are you familiar with those rights, those Miranda warnings?
A. Yes.
Q. And you were told that - - you were asked if you understood your rights at that time?
A. I knew, yes.
Q. Please tell the Court what you understood would happen to you if didn’t tape this confession or if you didn’t give these men what they were asking for with the Texas Rangers there?
A. Well, I would lose my visitation rights. I would lose my - - everything I had in Georgetown. I would lose being out by being put on death row. And that was stated by Bob Prince, that there would be no hope for me once I went to death row.
Q. SO even though these Miranda warnings were read to you on September 19th, 1984, you knew that if you didn’t give this confession that you would go to death row?
A. That’s right.
Q. Now, the next day you flew to Brownsfield, Texas, to Terry County and entered a guilty plea on a case up there, didn’t you?
A. I did, yes.
Q. And then you came to El Paso County about noon that day. Is that correct?
A. I did against my will, yes.
Q. And when you came to El Paso that day, you were there to go look at some crime scenes. Is that what you understood?
A. Yes.
Q. And when you arrived in El Paso that day, where did you - - do you remember who met you at the airport?
A. They was two officers and a ranger. I think it was Perez, and I can’t think of the other guy’s name. It wasn’t Apodaca. We picked Apodaca up at his office up here.
Q. Okay. And did you-all go eat lunch first?
A. Well, we stopped by out there, yes.
Q. And do you remember going to a Mexican restaurant?
A. I did, yes.
Q. Named Forti’s?
A. Yes.
Q. And what did you eat?
A. I ate a grilled cheese sandwich.
Q. Did they have the grilled cheese there for you?
A. No.
Q. Did they have to - - What did they have to do to feed you what you wanted that day?
A. They had to go to the store to buy it.
Q. Who are you talking about, the Texas Rangers or the people at the restaurant?
A. No, the people at the restaurant.
Q. And was this common? I mean, would you able make these kinds of special demands on what you wanted to eat when you were on the road like that, Mr. Lucas?
A. Yes.
Q. What would happen if they wouldn’t give you what you wanted to eat like that?
A. They wouldn’t get what they wanted.
Q. So you understood it that if they gave you some food and some privileges that you would give them some confessions. Is that correct?
A. That’s true.
Q. And you understood that if you didn’t give them the confessions they would send you to death row?
A. Well, we made an agreement. Bob Prince and the sheriff made the agreement with me that whenever I’m on the road that I can eat in restaurants, that I can eat the food I Wanted, and if I wanted coffee or cigarettes, I would get it - - or they would get it, whether they had to go get it or not.
Q. Now, the - - after lunch, where did you go next on September 20th, 1984, when you were in El Paso County, Mr. Lucas?
A. We drove to the office.
Q. When you say “the office,” are you talking
About the - -
Right here at the police department, upstairs.
Q. Police department. And what did you-all do when you got here?
A. They had to get batteries for the tape recorder, and we picked up another guy to go with us out to the scene.
Q. And what kind of tape recorder did they get that day?
A. I don’t know the name of it. It was about - - probably six inches long, probably two, three inches deep and about four inches, I guess, wide, five.
Q. What color was it?
A. Black and silver.
Q. Did it have batteries?
A. Yes.
Q. Did they use it that afternoon?
A. They did.
Q. Where did you go from the police department after you left here that afternoon?
A. Well, after they read the - - after they started to read the rights - - They didn’t read them that time - - they went on to the, oh, what do you call it out here, the Chevron or whatever it is, truck stop. And they put the tape recorder on and from there we proceeded on east.
Q. And did they end up driving you to an adobe house?
A. Well, the first time I told them where to turn it wasn’t the right road and so they said, well, we will drive you and you tell us when we get to the scene.
Q. Now, the first time when you tried to tell them where to turn, was that - - tell - - Which exit? If you’re heading east from that truck stop, would that have been the first exit past the truck stop?
A. No, it wasn’t the first exit. It was the one the other side of where them big white gas tanks is out on I-10.
Q. Yes.
A. That’s the exit I turned off on.
Q. They told you after you went down there a ways that that was the wrong exit. Is that true?
A. True, because I couldn’t find the river or the railroad I was looking for.
Q. This was - - Why were you looking for the river and the railroad, Mr. Lucas?
A. Because of the pictures.
Q. Who had shown you these pictures? I don’t know whether it was when it was in Georgetown or whether I was in - - when I was in Montaque County. But I know I had seen the pictures of the house and everything after what’s-his-name had described it to me.
Q. After Jerry Smith had described it to you?
A. Yes.
Q. So somebody sometime before that had shown you those pictures?
A. Yes.
Q. And when you were going to the house that afternoon, was that trip being tape recorded?
A. It was.
Q. Now, had they tape recorded you the day before in sierra Blanca?
A. They had.
Q. And you remember that, don’t you?
A. Yes, because they had to use a - - they had brought a tape recorder with them, but there were no batteries in it so they had to use the one there in Sierra Blanca.
Q. They had to borrow one from the police agencies there in Sierra Blanca?
A. Yes.
Q. And is that why they went to make sure they had batteries the next day?
Yes.
Q. The day before with Jerry Smith, was that conversation with him tape recorded?
A. It was.
Q. And that conversation that you had back at the crimes against persons offices the evening of September 20th, 1984, that confession, was that tape recorded? A. Back in the office it wasn’t tape recorded, it was videoed.
Q. Okay. So all the conversations you had with El Paso officers were tape recorded or videotaped. Is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, who drove who to the crime scene here in El Paso County?
A. Perez drove me to the crime scene, but he didn’t tell me it was the crime scene. He just drove right up in front of the house. He stopped and said, “Is there anything you recognize?”
And I said no. He drove out and we drove around the block a couple of times, come back and parked at the same driveway. And we walked from there straight up to the house.
Q. And when you walked up to that house, how many adobe type houses or stucco houses did you see up there?
A. That’s the only one there. That’s the only one I had seen in that area.
Q. Hadn’t you previously been told that it was a stucco house or an adobe type house?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, you gave a confession later that day here in the police office, do you remember that, that was on videotape? A. Yes.
Q. And that confession or videotape was done about 5:00 on the 20th. Do you remember that?
A. It was started a little earlier than that, but they had to back up because they didn’t read me the rights on the tape.
Q. Then they got the rights read on the tape and they started again?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, the time they gave you your rights on the 20th on that videotape, did you - - you understood what those rights meant, didn’t you?
A. I know what they are supposed to mean, but law enforcement don’t follow them rights.
Q. But, Mr. Lucas, my point is did you know what would happen to you if you didn’t give that confession?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. What would have happened to you if you didn’t give that confession to the El Paso Police Department while you were there with the Texas Rangers?
A. I would have went to death row.
Q. Now, the - - you went back the next day to Williamson County, didn’t you?
A. Yes.
Q. And did they ever tell you they got an arrest warrant for you for killing Librada Apodaca?
A. Not then, no.
Q. Did - - Do you remember Greg Lucas and some of the other El Paso officers wanting you to come back to El Paso to look at some more crime scenes?
A. I did.
Q. And was this for crime scenes that you had confessed to the murder of the victims?
A. Yes.
Q. And do you remember coming back to El Paso in October of 1984?
A. I do, yeah.
Q. About October 23rd?
A. Yes.
Q. And you spent three of four days here, didn’t you?
A. I did.
Q. And you went out to several crime scenes with different officers at that time to look for the victims of the people - - to look for the bodies of the people that you supposedly killed here in El Paso. Is that true?
A. Yes.
Q. Did they ever find any bodies on those trips?
A. No, we didn’t find no bodies. Found crime scenes, but that’s all.
Q. Now, how many El Paso area crimes do you recall confessing to, Mr. Lucas?
A. Oh - -
Q. Would it be about six?
A. No, it was more than that. It was - - I believe altogether it was nine.
Q. And out of those nine, how many bodies do you recall that were ever recovered?
A. There wasn’t no bodies recovered where I took the, you know, where we went.
Q. Except for the crime scene of Librada Apodaca where they knew they had a body. Is that correct?
Well, yeah. They had some crime scenes out there with other bodies, too, but I couldn’t pick them out.
Q. Now, on September 20th, 1984, when you were in El Paso County, did you have a lawyer?
A. No.
Q. Did the police department make a lawyer available to you here in El Paso County?
A. Not then, no.
Q. Did they make it available for you to talk with any lawyer you may have had back in Georgetown before they took you to any crime scene?
A. No.
Q. Did they make it available for you to talk with any lawyer you may have had in Georgetown before giving a videotaped confession?
A. No.
Q. After three days of going to crime scenes and not finding bodies in October of 1984, Mr. Lucas, did you get a request from Mr. Bill Moody to appear before the El Paso County Grand Jury?
A. I had several requests from him.
Q. Were those requests all during the period of time that you were here in El Paso?
Yes.
Q. In October?
A. Yes.
Q. And what had you told him to his first requests?
A. I told him no.
Q. Had you ever appeared before a grand jury before?
A. No.
Q. Have you appeared before any grand jury since other than the one in McLennan County?
A. No, I haven’t.
Q. Do you recall what day of that trip, the first, second or third day that Mr. Moody first asked you to appear before the El Paso County Grand Jury?
A. It was on the day of the grand jury, the night - - or the evening of the grand jury.
Q. Now, I don’t believe - - that day was the 25th of October of 1984. What did Mr. Moody do when you told him no?
A. He said do I want a lawyer. And I said, “Well, I have got to have some legal advice about going to a grand jury because I have never went before.”
And he said, “Well, why don’t you have
Somebody call one for you?” is the way he said it, and which the Ranger Smith called Clemmie because I wanted to talk to Clemmie. And I talked to her and she suggested that I take and get a lawyer and get legal advice because she couldn’t give it to me.
And when I got through talking with her, he called - -Smith went into the other room, him and somebody else - - I don’t know who it was - - went in and called Bob Prince. And so when I sat down and talked to Bob Price, Bob Prince gave me an ultimatum. “Either go to the grand jury or Huntsville.” He said, “I’m tired of it.” And so I - -
Q. When he said he was tired of it, what was he tired of?
A. About me refusing to keep going out to these crime scenes.
Q. And did Bob Prince make a lawyer available to you to consult with - -
A. No.
Q. - - before you appeared before the El Paso County Grand Jury?
A. No, because he had even refused my attorneys.
Q. Did Bob Prince threaten to cut off any visitation privileges you had with anyone?
A. Yes.
Q. What was that?
A. I couldn’t see Clemmie no more.
Q. Did he tell you that when he talked to you on the phone?
A. Yes.
Q. And did he know that you had a lawyer in Williamson County then?
A. Yes, because he is the one that originally said I could get me one.
Q. Did he make arrangements for you to call that lawyer that evening that you appeared at the El Paso County Grand Jury?
A. No, because he told me he was in Waco and he wasn’t going to bother Georgetown.
Q. Prince told you that he was in Waco?
A. Yeah.
Q. And did you then appear before the El Paso County Grand Jury?
A. I did, after a couple more requests from Mr. Moody.
Q. And did you continue to tell Mr. Moody you didn’t really want to appear?
A. Yes.
Q. Did Mr. Moody make any arrangements for you to get a local lawyer - - No.
Q. - - in El Paso County?
A. No, he did not. He come back the last time and said that I would be doing law enforcement a favor by going to the grand jury and that the grand jury wanted to see me.
Q. Did he show you any subpoena from the grand jury?
A. No.
Q. Did you understand what would happen to you if you did not appear before the grand jury on the evening of October 25th, 1984?
A. I knew what would happen to me if I didn’t, yes.
Q. What would that have been?
A. I would have got all my stuff taken and I would be on the next car out for Huntsville.
MR. PONTON: May I approach the witness, Your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes, sir.
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) I want to show you, Mr. Lucas, some records from a doctor named Douglas and Steven Benhold in Williamson County. Do you remember seeing a Dr. Benhold? Yes.
Q. In January of ’84?
A. Yes.
Q. For him prescribing Thorazine for you?
A. Yes, sir.
MR. PONTON: Offer Defendant’s Exhibit 23 at this time, Your Honor, for purposes of this hearing.
MR. MOODY: No objection.
THE COURT: Be admitted.
(Defendant’s exhibit marked. D-24.)
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) And I want to show you now, Mr. Lucas, some medical records from the Williamson County jail, and they show that you were given Thorazine for much of the time you were there at Williamson County jail. Do you remember being given Thorazine while you were at the jail?
A. I was given it daily, sometimes three to four times a day.
Q. And would this sometimes be by prescription and sometimes not?
A. Yes.
Q. And if it wasn’t by prescription, how would it be given to you?
A. They just would bring it to me.
Q. Would they ever do anything with the Thorazine if you got reluctant to give any confessions?
I have found a taste of it in my milkshakes that I used to drink.
Q. Did they ever take your dosage away or increase your dosage if you stopped giving confessions?
A. No, I - - they - - not as far as increase, I don’t think. I think that they can give to me, I guess you would call it, increase as far as a bigger dose, but as far as different times, you know. But I don’t recall offhand whether it was bigger dose or not. I just remember it three, four times a day.
Q. Was that for much of the time you were at the jail?
A. Yes.
Q. In the custody of the Texas Rangers?
A. Yes. I would be taking different drugs, but I don’t know what all they were.
Q. They would give you some antidepressant drugs, too, wouldn’t they, sometimes?
A. Sometimes, yes.
Q. Elavil, do you remember that?
A. Yeah.
MR. PONTON: At this time I would offer Defendant’s Exhibit 24, the Williamson County medical records, for purposes of this hearing.
THE COURT: It will be admitted.
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) Now, Mr. Lucas, approximately when was it that you stopped your confessions while under the custody of the Texas Rangers?
A. Well, as far as completely stopping them, that was in February, I think, 17th of ’85.
Q. February of ’85?
A. Yes.
Q. And would that have been when you went to - -
A. That’s when I received a subpoena for Waco.
Q. And where did you start staying when you received that?
A. I stayed in Waco for, I think, three - - three months, I think it was, maybe a little longer.
Q. Were you given these drugs while you were there in Waco?
A. No.
Q. Were you given any special food privileges while you were in Waco?
A. No, I ate the same thing the other inmates ate.
Q. Were you threatened with going to death row if you didn’t give confessions while in Waco?
A. Well, I was told if I stopped, I would go.
Q. I’m talking about when you were in Waco.
A. That’s what I’m talking about. They said if I stopped confessing that I would go to Huntsville.
Q. That’s what the Texas Rangers told you. Right?
A. Yeah.
Q. When you were in Waco, you were talking with the attorney general of the state of Texas and with the district attorney of McLennan County?
A. I was also talking with Boutwell, too. Boutwell would sneak into the jail up there in Waco.
Q. And he would - - what would Boutwell tell you while he was - - you were there in Waco?
A. He would tell me, he would say, “You know that you’re hunting us and we want you to come back and confess. We don’t care, you know, if you - - that is, if you want to stay in Williamson County.” HE says, “I’ll start right back over, right where you left off.”
And so I told him no. He tried after that to get me to go back to confessing and I wouldn’t do it.
Q. And was that the end of your special privileges?
A. Yes.
Q. Mr. Lucas, I’m going to show you what I’ll mark as Defendant’s Exhibit 25 and ask if you can identify this?
(Defendant’s exhibit marked, D-25.)
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) While they look at that, Mr. Lucas, I want to ask about some other things, a couple other things before we finish.
While you were there as a member of the Texas Ranger task force, did the Texas Ranger task force ask you to go to other states to help law enforcement?
Yes.
Q. Didn’t they ask you to help law enforcement in several different cases?
A. Yes.
Q. Did they ask you to go to West Virginia to help them help the widow of a trooper who killed himself?
A. Yes.
Q. Did they tell you that that widow couldn’t get any insurance benefits unless there was a killer of that man found? She couldn’t get no insurance or compensation.
Q. And did they ask you to give a confession to that case?
A. Yes, they did.
Q. The - - Didn’t you go to Arkansas to help law enforcement on a case there?
A. Yes.
Q. And wasn’t that a case where a trooper had been shot out by his - -
A. No, that was where a son had committed a crime up there.
Q. Oh, where the trooper’s son had committed the crime?
A. Yes.
Q. And he had gone to trial on that, hadn’t he?
A. Yes.
Q. And gotten a new trial?
A. He did after I got through up there, yeah.
Q. And - - Because you gave a confession to that crime?
A. Yes.
Q. And you were asked to help solve some other law enforcement related murders, weren’t you?
A. Yes.
Q. To - -
A. One in Louisiana where a mother or sister one, worked for the police department there in Covington, Louisiana, and they wanted me to solve that murder case for them.
Q. They asked you about solving the daughter of a Louisiana patrolman whose body was found in East Texas, didn’t they?
A. Yes.
Q. Polk County, someplace like that?
A. Somewhere over in there, yes.
Q. They got you to confess to that crime, didn’t they?
A. Yes.
Q. The number of - - You have no way of knowing the number of confessions you have given, do you, Mr. Lucas?
A. It’s up in the hundreds, but I don’t know.
Q. You were interviewed about thousands of cases, weren’t you?
A. Yes.
Q. And during that time that you were giving all these confessions, were the Texas Rangers telling you you would go to Huntsville if you didn’t give those confessions? Yes, that, and along with telling me how good I was doing for the families, the relatives of the victims.
Q. Would that make you feel good when they were talking to you like that?
A. Yeah.
Q. They would make you feel like you were doing something good in your life?
A. Yes.
Q. And would they make you feel like you were good friends with them?
A. I was good friends with them, at least, that’s what I thought at the time.
Q. With Prince?
A. Yes.
Q. Boutwell?
A. Prince and Boutwell.
Q. Clayton Smith?
A. I didn’t travel that much with Clayton, mostly Bob Prince and the sheriff.
Q. But you and the sheriff and Prince traveled around to a lot of places? Yes.
Q. Ate in a lot of restaurants together?
A. Yes.
Q. Stayed in a lot of hotels together?
A. Yes.
Q. Visited with a whole lot of people together, didn’t you?
A. Yes.
Q. And that relationship only went so far, though, didn’t it?
A. It only went as far as my confessions.
Q. They would give you that kind of friendship and that kind of good feelings as long as you would confess. Is that what - -
A. Yes.
Q. And would they threaten you that that would be the end of their friendship and the end of the things they could do for you if you stopped confessing?
A. That would be the end of all of it.
Q. I want to show you what I’ll mark - - what I have marked as Defendant’s Exhibit 25 and ask if you
Can identify that as a Xerox copy of the very first confession you gave in Texas to any crime, the handwritten confession you gave to the jailer in Montaque County the night of June 15th, 1983?
A. This is the first part of my confession, yeah.
Q. The last page is the first parts?
A. No, the whole - -
Q. The whole thing?
A. The whole thing combined - -
Q. Yes.
A. - - but I didn’t know what I was writing. I was just writing.
Q. Okay. Now, when you gave that confession, that was after you talked with the jailer there in Williamson County. Is that correct?
A. Yeah, about close to two hours after I talked to him.
Q. And when you talked with him, you were in custody at the jail. Is that correct?
A. Yeah, I was in the ice cell.
Q. And when you talked to him, you told him you wanted to make a statement. Is that true?
A. Well, I first asked him if I could make a phone call to get an attorney. I wanted to call Ruben Moore to see if I could get him to get me an attorney.
Q. Okay.
A. And I was refused that.
Q. I want you to read to the Court - - DO you have your glasses - - what I have underlined in red on page 3 of Defendant’s Exhibit 25.
A. It says, “Since I am not allowed to buy cigarettes or make phone calls.”
Q. Okay. Now down to the next sentence, please read to the Court the next thing I have underlined in red.
A. It says, “I’m not allowed to contact anyone in here and by myself and still can’t talk with a lawyer on this.”
Q. Okay. At the time you wrote this, you had been in custody for four days. Is that correct?
A. Four or five days. I don’t remember exactly.
Q. Had you been allowed to talk to any lawyer at all?
A. I wasn’t allowed to talk to nobody.
Q. They were keeping you there without talking to a lawyer or Ruben Moore or anyone. Is that correct?
A. I wasn’t allowed to talk to the trusties or anybody.
Q. And you were allowed to talk to a lawyer after you gave this confession?
A. It was a few days after that, yeah. It was after I went to court for the arraignments on the gun charge. Then they - - there was an attorney appointed, and we didn’t get along to good.
MR. PONTON: Okay. At this time I would offer Defendant’s Exhibit 25 for the purposes of this hearing.
MR. MOODY: No objection for purposes of this hearing.
THE COURT: It will be admitted.
Q. (BY MR. PONTON) Now, Mr. Lucas, you have given, as you have testified here, confessions to hundreds of murders and other crimes during the period of time you were with the Texas Rangers.
A. Yes.
Q. Did you give those confessions knowingly and voluntarily?
A. I wouldn’t call it voluntarily. I know I gave them, but I wouldn’t call it voluntarily gave to them.
Q. During the period of time that you were giving these confessions, were you being given the Drug Thorazine and other drugs most of that time?
Yes.
Q. During the time that you were giving these confessions, were you told by the Texas Rangers that you would go to death row if you wouldn’t give the confession?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. Did the Texas Rangers know that you were giving confessions to try to commit legal suicide?
A. They had to, because I told them I was.
Q. And after you told them that, did they stop taking confessions from you?
A. No, they had me make a tape stating that wasn’t trying to commit suicide.
Q. The times that you came to El Paso regarding the murder of Librada Apodaca were in September of 1984 and October of 1984. Is that correct?
A. Correct, yeah.
Q. And in September of ’84 and October of ’84, did El Paso - - had El Paso been told by the Texas Rangers that the Texas Rangers believed that you were in Montaque County all during the month of May of 1983?
A. Yes, they had.
Q. Wait. Do you know if the El Paso officers, however, had been told that by the Texas Rangers?
A. I didn’t know whether Perez or Apodaca or any of them was.
Q. Right.
A. But I know the other El Paso officers were told.
Q. Well, do you know - - the Texas Rangers knew, didn’t they?
A. Yes, they did.
Q. But you don’t know if Perez or Apodaca ever knew that, do you?
A. I can’t say they knew it, no.
MR. PONTON: I pass the witness.
THE COURT: Mr. Moody, it’s 4:30 or about 25 to 5:00. Do you want to start or would you rather wait until the morning?
MR. MOODY: Well - -
THE COURT: It’s up to you. I don’t care.
MR. MOODY: Let’s go ahead and start tomorrow morning.
THE COURT: All right. I think that’s wiser, because you’ll only have about 20 minutes today and you will have all morning tomorrow.
He will start at 9:00 tomorrow morning, ladies and gentlemen.
(An evening recess was taken.)
Editor's note: this is the official transcript and it runs verbatim, as the archive's rule for court records requires. One mechanical change was made and nothing else: the dashes that mark a broken-off or self-corrected sentence are printed as a spaced double hyphen, which is the court reporter's own convention, because the archive's house style does not use em dashes. The transcript file supplied to the archive is no longer available here to re-check that substitution against. The exchange opens with the court setting the limit on what Lucas may say, that the hearing is not there to take a confession but to establish how an earlier one was obtained, and that framing governs everything after it. This archive records Henry Lee Lucas with eleven convictions, around three of them regarded as credible, against some six hundred confessions; the questioning here is the mechanism by which that gap opened. It belongs to the El Paso County case and the 120th Judicial District, not to the Clay County trial already published as TRANSCRIPTS FROM THE TRIAL OF HENRY LEE LUCAS. Nothing said under oath in a transcript is a finding of fact, and Lucas in particular said a great many things that were not true.