At twenty past two on the afternoon of October 29, 1979, an assistant district attorney from Queens set up a tape recorder in a house at 316 Warburton Avenue in Yonkers and questioned three members of the Carr family for something over two hours. Samuel Carr was there, and his wife Frances, and their daughter Wheat, with the family's lawyer beside them. David Berkowitz had been in prison for two years by then.
Samuel Carr is the Sam. Berkowitz's letters, the ones that named him Son of Sam, had been read as referring to Carr's black labrador, which Berkowitz shot in April 1977. His son John Carr died in Minot, North Dakota in February 1978 of a gunshot wound to the head, five months after Berkowitz was arrested, and the Queens District Attorney's office had reopened the case on the theory that the shootings had not been the work of one man.
What the recording catches is a family being asked, politely and at length, to account for a dead relative. Herbert Leifer wants to know who they spoke to in North Dakota and when, what happened to John's car and his effects, what the family knows about the Church of Scientology, and whether anybody has called the house. Samuel Carr describes noticing cars behind his own and driving out of his way to avoid leading them to an eighty-three-year-old friend he played pinochle with. The transcript breaks off mid-answer, with Leifer asking what kind of car it was.
Berkowitz does not speak here and never did. He is the subject of the questions, not a party to them, and the people answering are the family of a man the district attorney's office suspected of having been involved alongside him. John Carr was dead by the time of this interview and was never charged with anything. The accomplice theory that prompted the reinvestigation is not something this archive takes a position on: what the document records is what one prosecutor asked and what three members of one family answered on one afternoon in 1979, which is a narrower thing than an answer.
Records of the Queens County District Attorney's office are public records of a New York state prosecuting agency, so the words are free to reproduce and there is nothing to clear. The route they took to get here is worth knowing, though: our copy came out of the working papers of the journalist who spent years on the accomplice theory, deposited in a public archive, which makes it a copy from a private collection rather than a copy from the file. For anything citable the custodian is the Office of the District Attorney of Queens County, Courts Building, 125-01 Queens Boulevard, Jamaica, New York.
What you are reading is not the scanned paper. The capture holds two things: twenty-four scanned pages of the original, and a twenty-three-page transcription somebody typed out by hand before depositing it. We have published the typed version, because the scan is barely readable - eighty per cent of its words are real English against the typed version's eighty-nine, and two OCR engines shown the same pages agreed with each other on fifty-nine per cent of words, which is the lowest figure of anything in this category. Set against each other, the scan gives you "nobody from theNew TorkCity Polioe Department" where the typed page gives you a sentence.
But a re-keyed page is not a record, and this one has no apparatus at all: no note of what was uncertain, nothing marked as a guess, no indication of anything skipped. Its cleanliness is evidence that it was typed, not that it is right. Treat it as a finding aid, check anything that matters against the scan, and cite the original. We have not repaired a single word of it, and deliberately so - running a spelling repairer over typed text invents errors rather than fixing them.
Four names survive on the scanned pages that the typed version does not carry at all, from the detectives' handwritten follow-up reports at the front: Borgia, O'Brien, Sean Greene and a Wilson who is recorded first as having seen a shooting and then as denying it. Those pages are the department's DD5 forms, written by hand and scanned badly, and printing them would put several hundred words of scrambled characters on this page for the sake of four legible names. They are quoted here instead. The covering memorandum of the same date, from Tom McCarthy to District Attorney John J. Santucci, is printed in full below.
10/29/79 – From: Tom McCarthy To: District Attorney John J. Santucci Subject: “SON OF SAM” Attached is a selection of the more interesting DD5s on Voskichian. I call attention to those relating to Wheat, Cinotti, Sperrazza, Baldwin, Larsen, Kortleven, and David Berkowitz. Copy H Leifer October 29th, 1979 at 2:20 in the afternoon, we’re at 316 Warburton Avenue, Yonkers, New York. Present at this time is myself, Assistant District Attorney Herbert Leifer, Detective Investigator George Byrd, Shield 901, Queens D.A.’s Office, Wheat Carr, Louis Ecker, counsel for the Carr family, Frances Carr, Samuel Carr. We are present here with regard to an investigation involving David Berkowitz, John Carr. This is to elicit information with regarding to the above-named individuals. We have previously spoken to Wheat Carr and there were some additional questions we had with regard to an incident which occurred in North Dakota. Now Wheat, when we had spoken to you on Friday you had said to us that you had not spoken to anyone in North Dakota since approximately October 5th of this year, is that correct?
WHEAT CARR: No, I said it was October 12th.
MR. LEIFER: October 12th.
WHEAT CARR: The day the stuff came out in the papers.
MR. LEIFER: Okay, now we have representatives in Minot, North Dakota as recently as this past Saturday who interviewed Linda O’Conner.
WHEAT CARR: Right.
MR. LEIFER: Linda O’Conner indicated to our investigators that they had an hour & a half phone conversation w/you, uh, as recently as uh, Wednesday of last week.
WHEAT CARR: I have been trying to locate them there.
MR. LEIFER: Have you spoken to anybody in Minot, ND between today and last week at all?
WHEAT CARR: I spoke to Craig, her ex-husband I guess he is, trying to locate them. I don’t really…
MR. LEIFER: Was that last week?
WHEAT CARR: It may have been.
MR. LEIFER: And did you have any conversations with Craig or any representative of the Minot newspaper with regard to our investigators in ND?
WHEAT CARR: No one in the Minot newspapers, definitely not, and w/Craig, the only thing I did ask Craig, I said “Do you believe this stuff?” & he said no.
MR. LEIFER: Was that possibly last week?
WHEAT CARR: Do you know when I called? (talking to someone else) (Voice) Inaudible…
WHEAT CARR: Because I had been trying to get ahold of her. We had a number that was incorrect & then I had some difficulty trying to get it because the name I remember was Conner, not O’Conner, so exactly when I spoke to Craig I honestly don’t remember.
MR. LEIFER: Did you speak to Terry Gardner at all last week?
WHEAT CARR: Uh, no, I did not.
MR. LEIFER: Now, was Michael a member of the Church of Scientology?
WHEAT CARR: Yes he was.
MR. LEIFER: Was, and could you just give us an idea how long he was w/the church or Mrs. Carr or Mr. Carr.
WHEAT CARR: Four to five years.
MR. LEIFER: I see. And uh, we also understand at one time he worked for the Phoenix House in New York.
WHEAT CARR: Michael worked in Phoenix House? If he did I never heard about it.
MR. LEIFER: No connection at all w/the Phoenix House?
WHEAT CARR: No, Michael’s only jobs that I know of in New York City were connected w/professional photography, commercial photography. (voice) Tony happens to be a photographer.
WHEAT CARR: Yeah, Tony Petricelli is a commercial photographer & that was at the time that he… (voice) Inaudible…
WHEAT CARR: I never heard of such a name, I don’t see how he had time. (Frances Carr I think) Okay, I have never heard of that name.
MR. LEIFER: Never did any counseling through the Church of Scientology at the Phoenix House which is a drug rehabilitation center.
FRANCES CARR: Nobody does. Scientologists do not work outside of their own building.
MR. LEIFER: I see. Its my understanding that they don’t. Do you know the location of the Scientology Church that he was affiliated with? Inaud…on 6th Ave. & 10th St. You had also mentioned that uh, you recall John mentioning to you the name of a friend of his who lived on Long Island, somebody he had gone to school with, Steve something or other, you have any recollection? I didn’t say Steve, I said the only Steve that I knew of… Right Was a Steve that he went to high school with, who I had no idea what happened him, I believe that he was killed in the service, but I don’t know that to be a fact. Cause you had mentioned something about a broker living on Long Island.
WHEAT CARR: His name is Larry Belello.
MR. LEIFER: Larry Belello.
WHEAT CARR: I said that he was the only other person that I could think of that John had visited during the times that he was here in the last 3 or 4 years.
MR. LEIFER: Do you have any idea where on Long Island he lived? Or the spelling of his name?
FRANCES CARR: You want his address? I have 34 Chucknick Blvd. North Babylon & its Bilello and his first name is Lawrence, very, very close friend of John’s.
MR. LEIFER: Uh, Mr. Carr, there was a blue Mercury Montego that John came down from ND in.
SAMUEL CARR: Right.
MR. LEIFER: That I understand was parked here for a long time until it was very recently sold.
SAMUEL CARR: That’s right.
MR. LEIFER: Do you recall what kind of license plates were on that car?
SAMUEL CARR: North Dakota.
MR. LEIFER: You know what ever happened to them?
SAMUEL CARR: I have them.
MR. LEIFER: You have them. Uh, could we have the license plate number.
SAMUEL CARR: Probably a few months because I had one at home.
MR. LEIFER: When John came back from ND in January ’78, we were advised that he had a gun w/him, a.44 caliber colt pistol, was that ever found in the automobile or any papers regarding that in the automobile? (voice) No.
FRANCES CARR: I know where if he had guns, where he would have it, what kind it was.
WHEAT CARR: The only gun I know about him having was a pistol,.22, air pistol I believe, I could be wrong, but it was.22, and he had that in ND & his van was burglarized somewhere along the lines, somewhere out there, his apartment or something.
FRANCES CARR: The van before this, he’s talking about when he came back.
WHEAT CARR: Yeah, I know, but I’m saying this is the only gun I have any knowledge of John having.
MR. LEIFER: Now the automobile, do you have the plates there? (voice) 462653, exp. Date 3/31/78, tag #565781
WHEAT CARR: Do you want to say the plate # again Daddy to see if you read it right.
MR. LEIFER:? (voice) The plate number again please.
SAMUEL CARR: 462653
MR. LEIFER: And that’s ND.
SAMUEL CARR: Right.
MR. LEIFER: Was that car registered to John do you know?
SAMUEL CARR: Yes.
MR. LEIFER: It was registered. Did you have a copy of the registration? Did you have when you sold the car?
SAMUEL CARR: Yes.
MR. LEIFER: Was it to John C. Carr.
SAMUEL CARR: That’s right.
WHEAT CARR: You did?
SAMUEL CARR: Yeah. Cause I got a…
FRANCES CARR: Are you asking whether he had the registration, the original registration?
MR. LEIFER: Yes.
FRANCES CARR: Cause the police have his wallet, they have never returned it.
SAMUEL CARR: No, I had a, there was a registration in the car.
MR. LEIFER: Do you recall what address was on the registration?
SAMUEL CARR: It was a house in town, I don’t know, I don’t recall, there was a title on that car too & I had to send to ND & I got a copy of the title & I had it changed over from his name. I sent a copy of the death certificate & they sent me a copy of the title changing it over where I could sell that car.
MR. LEIFER: And who did you sell that car to?
SAMUEL CARR: A colored family down here on Woodworth Ave., I don’t recall the name. The copy of the title, I had, I went out with them, cause he, to the Motor Vehicle Bureau & I showed them all the papers I had w/the authorization from the state of ND & they accepted that before I sold the car.
MR. LEIFER: Now before you sold the car did you go through it completely to see whether there was anything it any of John’s personal effects & the papers that he had?
SAMUEL CARR: Yes. No papers except uh, copy that…sheet registration from ND.
MR. LEIFER: You have any pictures of John, we had seen some & Wheat had showed us some pictures of John but they were very small snapshots. You have any pictures of John standing up?
SAMUEL CARR: No.
FRANCES CARR: Not standing up.
WHEAT CARR: Not full length.
MR. LEIFER: Or full face pictures.
WHEAT CARR: Other than high school, I don’t believe, other than snapshots, his high school picture is the only one, I don’t even know where it is.
MR. LEIFER: Wheat, you had mentioned that you had some samples of John’s writing, a letter that he had written to you, do you have that?
WHEAT CARR: I have a letter that he wrote from bootcamp someplace.
MR. LEIFER: What was the name of the doctor who treated Harvey, your dog?
SAMUEL CARR: The chief at the NY Animal Medical Center.
FRANCES CARR: I don’t recall his name, Wheat might recall his name.
MR. LEIFER: You know where, you don’t happen to have the address of the hospital.
SAMUEL CARR: Done on 62nd St. & East River Drive.
MR. LEIFER: And the bullet is still in Harvey?
SAMUEL CARR: That is correct, very close to the heart. That’s the reason we will not have it removed cause it could mean it could kill him.
FRANCES CARR: He just asked you whether it was still there Sam, all he asked you whether it was still there.
SAMUEL CARR: Well, I’m giving him a reason why the bullet…
FRANCES CARR: Well it is still there okay, it is still there.
MR. LEIFER: When John used to come back on leaves from ND or from any other military leaves, he was in the service about 11 years, did he have any close friends in town?
FRANCES CARR: Here?
MR. LEIFER: Here in Yonkers.
FRANCES CARR: There was a young man he grew up & went to school w/he went to school there and he…till the 12th grade.
MR. LEIFER: Yeah, I know, but were there any close friends that he visited w/when he came home on leave?
FRANCES CARR: The only friends he uh there’s Larry Bilello that we mentioned and Richard Folk.
MR. LEIFER: Richard Folk?
FRANCES CARR: A ha.
MR. LEIFER: Does he still live in town?
FRANCES CARR: He lives in this area, he lives in Westchester.
MR. LEIFER: What’s that, Folk?
FRANCES CARR: No, its Focht.
MR. LEIFER: And Richard?
FRANCES CARR: Yes.
FRANCES CARR: Yes, and they went to school from the time they were in kindergarten.
MR. LEIFER: And, uh, you have any recent address?
FRANCES CARR: No I don’t, I don’t remember.
MR. LEIFER: Just somewhere here in Westchester County.
FRANCES CARR: Yes, he lives in Westchester.
WHEAT CARR: He finds us more often than we find him.
MR. LEIFER: Mr. Carr, had you ever seen David Berkowitz around the neighborhood?
SAMUEL CARR: No.
MR. LEIFER: How about you, Mrs. Carr?
FRANCES CARR: No sir.
MR. LEIFER: And Wheat the only time you saw him was when he was w/Freddy in the car that day.
WHEAT CARR: That one day.
MR. LEIFER: Since this incident, have you ever had an occasion to speak to Freddy about Berkowitz?
WHEAT CARR: No. We haven’t seen him since June, 1977.
MR. LEIFER: When did that incident happen that you believe Freddy was involved w/your two dogs at the construction plant?
WHEAT CARR: That was in uh, early in the year, it was before Harvey was shot so it was early in the year.
MR. LEIFER: And what year was that?
WHEAT CARR: ’77.
MR. LEIFER: Early in ’77.
WHEAT CARR: That’s correct.
MR. LEIFER: And that was never, that incident was never reported to the police or anybody?
WHEAT CARR: No, well started to make the report and he said well, too many people had access cause there were 5 keys so they said well forget it, its just a dog, same thing they said when Harvey was shot, its really just a dog.
MR. LEIFER: And who was the uh, gentleman that you were in the construction business with at that time?
WHEAT CARR: His name is Jim Faulkner.
MR. LEIFER: Jim Faulkner, and he is still around town?
WHEAT CARR: He’s not here, he’s now remarried & lives in New Rochelle, I don’t know where cause he’s married to a very jealous girl. He is, very honestly, a former NYC cop, was suspended & finally thrown off the job cause of an incident that occurred off duty 5 years before I knew him, so, you’re gonna check him, that’s gonna come out, I’d rather tell you than someone else.
MR. LEIFER: Now we’re told that at one time while you were working for the PD in Yonkers, you had made a request for a 1,000 rounds of reloads.
WHEAT CARR: What?
MR. LEIFER: For ammunition for.44 caliber,.38 caliber,.357 magnum, and.22 caliber.
WHEAT CARR:.44 caliber?
MR. LEIFER: Yeah.
WHEAT CARR: That’s somebody’s imagination working overtime, I do own a.357 magnum, I do own a.25 automatic and uh, we have several other handguns which I do go regularly and shoot and the reason…I may have asked somebody about the price of reloads, that’s very possible, they’re the cheapest thing to shoot at a target but never.44s, and I had no use for them.
MR. LEIFER: No, you may you do have a number of guns, are they yours or your husband’s or…
WHEAT CARR: Uh, they are mine, they are, yeah they’re mine, they’re registered to me and/or my father, some of the ones on my permit are registered, are his and some are mine, they’re both on permits.
MR. LEIFER: Do you have any permit with you or available.
WHEAT CARR: Not really, I don’t even know where it is, its been so long since I carried the thing. Carried the gun or carried the permit, I don’t know where it is off hand right now.
MR. LEIFER: Was it at a regular carry permit?
WHEAT CARR: It was a limited carry current employment only restriction an it has to do w/the fact that I do transport large sums of money in connection w/this business. The current employment had to do w/…inaudible…got the permit prior to being involved, being employed by the police department.
MR. LEIFER: And it was issued in the name of Wheat Carr.
WHEAT CARR: Wheat Micheline Carr.
MR. LEIFER: And Mr. Carr, do you also have a permit?
SAMUEL CARR: A ha.
MR. LEIFER: And you have it with you also. Could we have the number on it please. How long you been licensed?
WHEAT CARR: Was I 21, 21 when I got it. I think I was only 21, 22, I’m not even sure of the original date, but I was on my own, that’s about how old I was, in my early 20’s. (voice) You still have all these weapons?
WHEAT CARR: I’m 29. (voice) You have all these weapons?
SAMUEL CARR: Yep.
WHEAT CARR: Some of them are mine really.
SAMUEL CARR: Some are here.
MR. LEIFER: Do you shoot regularly at range?
WHEAT CARR: I haven’t in quite a long time.
MR. LEIFER: Where did you shoot when you…
WHEAT CARR: Uh, the police pistol range in Elmswood/Ford, Hardsly/Drosley rather, Westchester, pistol & rifle…inaudible…
MR. LEIFER: Mr. Carr, how long were you licensed to carry a weapon?
WHEAT CARR: It should say on the permit.
SAMUEL CARR: No, that’s a replacement, the original permit. (voice) Could I ask you a question before we go on?
SAMUEL CARR: Sure. (voice) Uh, I’m getting a feeling from the tone of these questions that…
WHEAT CARR: They’re making me uncomfortable. (voice) Are these people the targets of any investigation are they suspects, or…
MR. LEIFER: No, the only reason the question about the guns came to life was that we heard something mentioned to us on Friday that she did have a number of guns and she did mention.357.
WHEAT CARR: I didn’t mention that to you. I didn’t mention anything about what guns I owned, I’m sure of that, if you got that, you got that from the Yonkers PD which is where the information on our permits is. I’m sure I didn’t mention what I got. I don’t recall that at all. (voice) Alright, alright, can I ask where this conversation will be going from this point on.
MR. LEIFER: Well, as we had told Wheat on Friday, uh, a lot of muddy waters have been raised as a result of things that have been published in the newspaper and uh, our office didn’t have an investigation going prior to the recent articles in the newspaper but as a result of them we have started checking up on a number of the facts which were raised as a result of the newspaper articles & Det. Byrd & myself have been out here, we have spoken to Wheat on a prior occasion w/regard to just generally John Carr. (voice) You do it on a Friday night.
MR. LEIFER: Friday night, yeah, and uh, again I said uh, during our conversation there had been a.357 mentioned, there had been a.22 mentioned, there had been a 9 milimeter mentioned and at that time I had not asked Wheat whether or not she was licensed and I just asked her now.
FRANCES CARR: Can I ask you a question?
MR. LEIFER: Sure.
FRANCES CARR: Um, is there any, any reason to believe that all of this story has any truth in it at all, I mean is there really some investigation that’s going on, is there really some police department that has brought this to life or is this just the fancy of the reporter that wants to sell his newspapers?
MR. LEIFER: As far as…
FRANCES CARR: Before you started you said you didn’t start until the newspapers started to write…does he have any proof that anything he’s saying its true or is it all fiction & part of his imagination?
MR. LEIFER: Uh, as far as what they print in the newspaper I really can’t tell you, I have no idea whether he is imagining it or not.
FRANCES CARR: But he is implying that NYC had opened an investigation in conjunction w/the ND police is that true?
MR. LEIFER: I am not aware of any investigation of the NYC PD?
FRANCES CARR: Then why is it nobody from the NYC PD has made any kind of uh, big splashes on the newspapers that there is no investigation and that we have been so badly damaged by it.
MR. LEIFER: If there isn’t any investigation presently in progress by the NYC PD I can’t see the reason why they would come forward in any way & deny it because they, there isn’t anything pending as far as I know.
SAMUEL CARR: My original permit was 33891 on the 21st of December, 1968.
MR. LEIFER: Can I have the date again please.
SAMUEL CARR: 21st of December, 1968, the original permit number was 33891.
MR. LEIFER: Cause the permit you’re showing me now shows original permit number 35349.
SAMUEL CARR: That was due to the fact that it was, uh…
MR. LEIFER: I just want to read this, the weapons listed on the rear of the permit uh, attached on a typewritten piece of paper: Colt,.22 caliber…I can’t read the small print.
DET. BYRD: We have a Colt,.22 caliber # 1012, got a Colt,.25 caliber # OD25941, we have a Bower? 25, number uh, 011595, there was Smith and Wesson.32, # 82530, we have a Colt,.38 # 906060, Colt,.38, F31292, S&W.357 Serial no. 2k20360, S&W.357 Serial no. N11668
MR. LEIFER: I’m returning Mr. Carr’s permit. Mr. Carr, you have these guns around the house?
SAMUEL CARR: Yes.
MR. LEIFER: Now Wheat are any of those guns that we mentioned, you had said something about some of them were yours, you know which one’s yours and which ones you have and which ones your dad doesn’t have?
WHEAT CARR: I’m just trying to think which ones are where, okay. The Bower.25 is mine. The Smith & Wesson w/the K serial number.357 is mine, and one of the colts, there is a colt.38 and I’m not sure which serial number but one of them is mine.
MR. LEIFER: And do you have those weapons that you mentioned in your home??: They’re here in a safe spot.
MR. LEIFER: Do you have any guns in your house aside from the ones your husband may have??: The only guns in the house right now that I can think of off hand, I could be wrong, there may be one of mine up there for whatever reason, very honestly I think they’re all here & the other other ones would be his & they’d be in the house.?: And you know which guns those are?
MR. LEIFER: Or any type of guns your husband may have in the house.
FRANCES CARR: Inaudible…
MR. LEIFER: Only in that they were mentioned to us the other day.
SAMUEL CARR: Again, why would it be important?
WHEAT CARR: John mentioned it.
MR. LEIFER: Why would they not, you know, then why…inaudible…just trying to clear it up, that’s all, you know.
WHEAT CARR: What is confusing about them?
MR. LEIFER: Its just that there are a lot of guns involved & we’re just trying to track down and know where each one is & who has it, that was it.
WHEAT CARR: Okay, well I really don’t even know what he has, and I’m sure he has a service revolver, I believe he has two other ones, uh, they’re rarely in the house unless he’s there & I think one of them may be in his locker, you know, I’m sure his service revolver, I’ve never seen his service revolver at home except once and that was to clean it.
MR. LEIFER: Was uh, John licensed do you know in NY?
WHEAT CARR: Not in New York, no.
MR. LEIFER: How about Michael?
WHEAT CARR: Never, Michael wanted nothing to do w/guns.
MR. LEIFER: Now you had brought down a card w/the handwriting sample, uh…
FRANCES CARR: That’s a personal letter, I don’t think that’s important.
WHEAT CARR: Do you obtain copies of his handwriting?
MR. LEIFER: No. We have not been able to obtain any copies of your brother’s handwriting.
FRANCES CARR: I don’t mind furnishing you with copies of his handwriting, but I will pick it out.
MR. LEIFER: Fine.
FRANCES CARR: Something that I have.
MR. LEIFER: Fine, I would appreciate any sample that you might give us, something that you feel would not be personal and something you would not want to leave the house. Again, if you have a picture of him, a full-faced picture, again something that would not uh, something that you would not mind parting with temporarily, uh, we could make a one-on-one picture, we have a polaroid with us today, I don’t know if we can come out with it or not.
FRANCES CARR: Um, I’m the kind of person who does not like to be reminded of this sort of thing and I have put all his pictures away until such a time that I feel I can take them out so its not convenient for me to give you one right now.
MR. LEIFER: Now Wheat you had mentioned that uh, there was a box of your brother’s papers that your father had.
WHEAT CARR: They were $1 bills, that sort of thing, bank statement bills and not any personal papers. My brother didn’t write letters, he’s just not that kind of person. If we have any letters, there’s maybe six of them from the whole time he was in the service, if we still have them. We’re also not the people that save letters, so…
FRANCES CARR: We had us…inaud…the telephone business. If we had to talk to each other we talked on the telephone, we had very high telephone bills but very few letters around, so uh, most of our, John didn’t like writing letters and he said he had cobwebs in his mailbox because I never wrote to him so, most of our conversations were on the phone.
WHEAT CARR: Tell me something, I asked you, you said you’d try to check into it I don’t know if you had time, about some letters that we had received from Berkowitz that we’re having difficulty having returned to us, supposedly because of the D.A.’s hold, whether it be from Brooklyn, Bronx, Queens, Manhattan, I don’t even know, were you able to find out anything?
MR. LEIFER: I have not, since I saw you on Friday, been able to come up with any information w/regard to whose hold it is and we’re checking through the Yonkers PD in an attempt to find out whose holding up the letters and why they’re being held. I don’t know where they are at the present time.
FRANCES CARR: It really doesn’t have anything to do with this conversation.
WHEAT CARR: No, well its just a request Daddy made.
FRANCES CARR: Okay, well I just assume we do this and nothing else.
MR. LEIFER: Alright, in the personal property that came from Minot.
FRANCES CARR: We never received any.
MR. LEIFER: You never received any of his personal property from Minot.
FRANCES CARR: The police had not given us a coroner’s report nor have they given us back his wallet, which apparently was the only thing that was on his body.
MR. LEIFER: Well, how about any of the other personal things he may have, personal effects he may have had in his car.
FRANCES CARR: Inaudible… …from John are, he was only gone from here what 24, 48 hours.
WHEAT CARR: Three days I think, he left on Monday and it happened on Wednesday.
FRANCES CARR: Okay, and he only took his clothes with him, he lives uh, you know, so uh, the only papers that we have are those that substantiate his Air Force uh, the things, his Air Force papers. He had uh, and he went to school in the meantime, he didn’t work or you know, I mean he went to college all the rest of the time since he got out so there was nothing of any importance in what we had except those things we needed to get for his daughter, social security and hopefully V.A. benefits.
MR. LEIFER: No personal effects at that time like clothing or ah, anything of that nature, for example he had a, Carr mentioned a buddha necklace did that ever come…
FRANCES CARR: I have that, its something he gave me.
MR. LEIFER: No, No, No, that’s what I’m asking uh…
FRANCES CARR: Cause you were speaking about it.
MR. LEIFER: There was a buddha necklace we had discussed it was in a picture that he had w/he and his daughter.
FRANCES CARR: What was it, what did it look like? Did it have 3 parts to it?
MR. LEIFER: Uh, it was a very small picture & I’d asked…
FRANCES CARR: I know what you’re speaking about & it’s a thing that he brought back which he told me was a, like a good luck charm, it has 3 different figures on it, it is a thing that he gave me and I don’t think that he took that back to ND w/him.
MR. LEIFER: Well this was only one…
FRANCES CARR: Well they were not together.
MR. LEIFER: Did he say it was a rubbing buddha?
WHEAT CARR: No, he had the necklace, that’s the only thing I know of.
MR. LEIFER: Yeah, right, that was what we were talking about.
WHEAT CARR: He had it on him, the pictures I think you’re thinking of are pictures that were taken like in a park or something.
MR. LEIFER: There were trees around, I couldn’t tell exactly where it was from.
WHEAT CARR: We stopped for soup and he may have had the necklace on at that time, but I haven’t seen it.
FRANCES CARR: I don’t know if you’re even that familiar with it.
WHEAT CARR: Yeah, I’ve seen it on him.
FRANCES CARR: Its something that is normally kept in a house and hung above the bed or something like that, but it is a religious artifacts that he brought back from, its one of his phase in the Air Force when he was sent overseas.
MR. LEIFER: No, this is, what I am referring to is a necklace which is a buddha, which was found hanging in the closer of the O’Conner apartment after John died & I was wondering whether it ever got here.
FRANCES CARR: No, no.
WHEAT CARR: Cause he only had the one that I know of.
FRANCES CARR: Then we’re not talking about the same thing.
MR. LEIFER: This was a good luck piece that he always wore except when he was upset and he would take it off.
FRANCES CARR: I don’t know what you are talking about.
MR. LEIFER: Okay. I was wondering whether that might have come.
FRANCES CARR: No, I thought you were talking about a, no, nothing like that has come.
MR. LEIFER: Nothing of his personal effects ever got to you from ND.
SAMUEL CARR: No, his bag, his wallet is being held up there.
DET. BYRD: Uh, getting back to uh, the Mercury, were there any artifacts or anything in the glove compartment of that car, uh, papers, receipts, anything like that do you know Mr. Carr?
SAMUEL CARR: There were bills, and registration.
DET. BYRD: You don’t recall a receipt for a.44 colt?
SAMUEL CARR: To my knowledge he didn’t own one.
MR. LEIFER: Because we’ve been told by Linda O’Conner that there was a receipt in the glove compartment which he always kept locked and she had gone in there to get something for him out of the glove compartment and she had seen a yellow receipt made out in the name of John C. Carr for a.44 caliber colt.
SAMUEL CARR: To my knowledge, he never owned one.
MR. LEIFER: Was he into shooting, Wheat, like as you are, or a…
WHEAT CARR: Yeah, he did, uh, what since we were twelve, we’ve been going up to the range? Since we were kids.
FRANCES CARR: John spent a lot of time with the Westchester Police at the Rifle Range, a.22 rifle first.
WHEAT CARR: He did some hunting out in Texas.
MR. LEIFER: At one time in front of this building there was a sign, Carr’s illustrated graphics or graphic illustrations.
FRANCES CARR: Michael is a, Michael graduated from the Rochester Institute of Technology and Professional Photography.
MR. LEIFER: And that, was that his business that he ran out of this.
FRANCES CARR: He was going to have one of…
WHEAT CARR: I remember they made out signs. I don’t remember there ever being a sign up.
MR. LEIFER: It was in one of the police reports that there had been a sign in front of the house at one time.
WHEAT CARR: Yeah, there was a sign in front of the house, it said private property, cars would be towed away at owner’s expense, that’s the only sign.
FRANCES CARR: We had never put answering service or for Mike’s studio, have ever put a sign out.
WHEAT CARR: Only signs that existed were the ones that were already on the door.
FRANCES CARR: All he did was ask you did we have a sign out.
WHEAT CARR: No.
FRANCES CARR: Okay.
MR. LEIFER: Now, as we had discussed in regard to Michael you had said that you had spoken to him about 1 o’clock in the morning the day that he died.
WHEAT CARR: About 10 o’clock till somewhere after 12 and before 1:00.
MR. LEIFER: Did he give you any indication where he was going at that time?
WHEAT CARR: Down to the city to party and relax. He had worked since 7 o’clock in the morning and he has a little rest, a little fun.
MR. LEIFER: But he never mentioned where he was going or where he was heading for or anything of that nature. Do you know when Michael became involved w/the Church of Scientology?
WHEAT CARR: I would say roughly four or five years ago.
MR. LEIFER: And did he go down to New York to the Church of Scientology on a regular basis?
WHEAT CARR: What’s regular?
MR. LEIFER: Well, did he go there every Wednesday, Thursday, Tuesday, was there a regular schedule where he would go to the…
SAMUEL CARR: Set day.
MR. LEIFER: Set day every week.
FRANCES CARR: He took a lot of courses there and took a lot of…inaud…He spent a lot of time there.
MR. LEIFER: Well, I know he worked here full time is that right?
FRANCES CARR: Recently, yes. He’s been out of college for a long…since 1973, okay.
MR. LEIFER: When did he first become involved with the church, was that while he was in college or after he graduated?
FRANCES CARR: No, aftwards.
MR. LEIFER: Afterwards. And when he got out of college when he was back home again in Yonkers did he work, he worked here, is that correct? At the switchboard?
FRANCES CARR: Inaud…tried to set up…no.
MR. LEIFER: No, not the switchboard, but as management of the…
FRANCES CARR: No sir, he has only worked with me since January of 1978.
WHEAT CARR: January, February, whenever we incorporated.
FRANCES CARR: January, February.
MR. LEIFER: About a year and a half.
FRANCES CARR: Right. He was trained to be a professional photographer and he worked for several photographers and knew commercial photographers in NYC and for a while he was actually on the staff of the Church of Scientology.
MR. LEIFER: In what capacity?
FRANCES CARR: Staff member, whatever they do.
MR. LEIFER: Was that related to his photography or was that related to…
FRANCES CARR: No, no, Scientology.
MR. LEIFER: Now did he go, when he was on the staff did he go, was it a regular 9 to 5 job, did he go in there every day and return every day or…
FRANCES CARR: Yes.
MR. LEIFER: And when did he leave the staff of the Church of Scientology?
FRANCES CARR: When we were out of there, when we were up in…inaud…in 1977, I don’t know the date, I really don’t know the date.
MR. LEIFER: But he did leave the staff in the time when he started working here w/the answering service.
FRANCES CARR: When he left the staff he went back to work w/Tony Petricelli.
MR. LEIFER: Right. When did he start working here full time?
FRANCES CARR: 1978.
MR. LEIFER: Okay, and wen he worked here full time was he still very active with the Church of Scientology?
FRANCES CARR: He was active with the Church of Scientology until the moment of his death. He is very proud of being part of it.
MR. LEIFER: As an active member did he go there on a regular basis?
FRANCES CARR: Why are you asking this, I’ve already answered you.
MR. LEIFER: No, but you…
FRANCES CARR: Yes he did, it’s not a 9 to 5 job, they are, they have, they are open at 10 o’clock in the morning until 10 o’clock at night, nobody works those long hours. He worked whatever his schedule was, or he went for auditing.
SAMUEL CARR: Could you give us a couple minutes to ourselves. H: Sure. Sure, certainly. The time is now 3:07.
Mr. Ecker: Yeah, we took a short recess so that I could have a conversation with my clients. Uh, you asked Wheat a question before about having a conversation w/Linda O’Conner is it.
WHEAT CARR: Right.
Mr. Ecker: Last week, and Wheat would like to clear the air on that little piece of business.
WHEAT CARR: Yes, I did talk to Linda, okay. I explained to you previously that Linda’s very concerned about her job. Linda asked me not to mention speaking to hear. She wants no connection with us, she feels that we’ll endanger her position. Obviously, Linda didn’t hesitate to tell you or your people in ND that she spoke to me so I don’t feel bound by that anymore. Okay. I did speak to her and we did go over much the same things we had gone over at the time of John’s death.
MR. LEIFER: Could you just tell us the substance of the conversation as best you recall and when was the conversation?
WHEAT CARR: The conversation was last week. I honestly am not sure of which day, okay. What day did I see you?
MR. LEIFER: Friday.
WHEAT CARR: Friday, it may have been either Wednesday or Thursday evening, uh, basically what it was was I asked her if she had been contacted and I asked her to tell me everything she could think of that was important. I asked her if she had been notified about Michael’s death. And she told me yes and she described that Terry Gardner telling her about Michael’s death. The other thing was just basically I said do you think, do you, you think this is true what they’re saying. She told me 90% of it, no, about John being involved in drugs, obviously that’s a matter of public record yes he is. I think that’s really about all it was.
MR. LEIFER: Now before you spoke to Linda had you spoken to anybody else up in ND that same time.
WHEAT CARR: Only Craig in order to reach Linda.
MR. LEIFER: And did he tell you who the investigators we had were, what their names were.
WHEAT CARR: No, not at all.
MR. LEIFER: Cause Linda indicated to our investigators that you had told her that one of the gentleman’s names was Mike.
WHEAT CARR: No.
MR. LEIFER: And were just…inaud…
WHEAT CARR: I have no way of knowing that I didn’t even know that you had people out there.
MR. LEIFER: But you had spoken to Craig prior to speaking to Linda.
WHEAT CARR: And the only conversation I had w/Craig was to get Linda’s phone number and again, do you think John could have done these weird things they’re saying, what do you think his frame of mind was at that time?
MR. LEIFER: You spoke to her for a long time, you spoke to her about an hour and a half.
WHEAT CARR: Yeah.
MR. LEIFER: And you were just going over the circumstances of John’s death and uh.
WHEAT CARR: That’s all.
MR. LEIFER: And that was it.
WHEAT CARR: That’s all. I told her a little bit about the publicity here, you know, just the way they were wording it here as opposed to the way it was worded in ND. She read me the newspapers.
MR. LEIFER: Of course as you know she spoke to our investigators at length with regard to this, and of course told them about her conversation with you.
WHEAT CARR: She did tell you that she had an appointment, she was very it, she had told them to call her at a certain time of day and she was gonna set up and meet w/them. But she said she didn’t want them to know she’d been in touch with us recently, just because she’s so afraid of losing her job.
MR. LEIFER: And have you spoken to her since that time?
WHEAT CARR: No. Definitely not.
MR. LEIFER: Have you spoken to anyone in ND since speaking to Linda?
WHEAT CARR: No, I have not, is there somebody else that she’s supposed to have talked to
MR. LEIFER: No, that’s why I’m asking.
WHEAT CARR: No, uh, the 12th, the day I spoke to Terry Gardner and to whatever the sheriff’s name is, Swan.
MR. LEIFER: Swan.
WHEAT CARR: And this past week when I spoke to Linda, other than that, I don’t, and Craig, I haven’t talked to anyone else in ND.
MR. LEIFER: Now, when you spoke to Terry Gardner & Sheriff Shwan, did you question him about what happened to John’s property, his wallet, his clothing, any of his personal effects?
WHEAT CARR: Yes.
MR. LEIFER: And what did they tell you?
WHEAT CARR: They told me they were impounded, they had an open investigation, they didn’t have to release it until the investigation was closed, that they were not going to release it.
MR. LEIFER: Did you discuss w/them at all any question w/regard to whether or not it is in fact John that died in ND?
WHEAT CARR: I don’t remember but I would imagine my conversation w/them was taped, it’s a police department.
MR. LEIFER: Oh, I don’t know whether it was or not.
WHEAT CARR: I do not remember specifically discussing that.
MR. LEIFER: Does Terry Gardner believe that your brother is the one that died in ND?
WHEAT CARR: Apparently, I can’t answer for him.
MR. LEIFER: No, but has he ever mentioned it to you?
WHEAT CARR: I don’t remember anything specific about that. Obviously he’s investigating my brother’s death. That’s what he told me, so I’m assuming he thinks it was John.
MR. LEIFER: Mr. Carr, you have any reason, anything you know, in the back of your mind that you could think of why David Berkowitz picked on your family?
WHEAT CARR: Do you want to walk in the backyard please.
FRANCES CARR: We know where his apartment…
WHEAT CARR: Cause the obvious, the obvious… HL; We know, alright, no, I know where the apartment is and I’ve seen pictures. (voice) No, no, so tell him no.
SAMUEL CARR: In my mind I was trying to think them, the answer must be no.
FRANCES CARR: Well, you must have thought of that enough times by now.
MR. LEIFER: Alright, this is a person you have never seen.
SAMUEL CARR: I have never seen him.
MR. LEIFER: Never spoken to.
SAMUEL CARR: Never spoken to.
MR. LEIFER: And, of course you’ve read all the articles John Wheaties and your name certainly mentioned a number of times, can you think of anything, was there any possibility that somewhere you might have run into him somewhere. That, you know, something in the back of your mind that never really clicked because no one ever asked you about it.
SAMUEL CARR: Not to my knowledge.
MR. LEIFER: And What you had never met him.
WHEAT CARR: Not at all.
MR. LEIFER: Did he ever call here that you know of, or that anyone of the three of you had ever received a phone call from him.
FRANCES CARR: Isn’t this all part of the record?
SAMUEL CARR: There were phone calls.
FRANCES CARR: You know that as well as we do.
MR. LEIFER: If I had all the answers…
FRANCES CARR: We had threatening phone calls.
WHEAT CARR: You read the reports up in the Yonkers PD.
FRANCES CARR: You know that we had threatening phone calls.
WHEAT CARR: You know that we reported…
FRANCES CARR: You know that we had threatening phone calls, you know all of them, you know all the letters we received, how would we know whether David Berkowitz made those calls?
MR. LEIFER: Well, that’s why I’m asking you.
FRANCES CARR: He never identified himself as David Berkowitz.
MR. LEIFER: So on any of the threatening calls that you did receive there was no indication.
FRANCES CARR: There was no names, they didn’t say I’m so & so, okay.
MR. LEIFER: Now, when you asked me haven’t I read all the reports, there were many reports, there were thousands of pages.
FRANCES CARR: Okay.
MR. LEIFER: I could assure you that I have not read every one of the many thousands of pages of reports that were given to the various police officers who were involved in the investigation and the reason I’m asking you the questions is so that you can because you’re the first-hand person, so that you could let me know about.
FRANCES CARR: Alright, no, we did not ever know who was making the threatening phone calls. The personal making the calls never said I’m David Berkowitz, I’m calling you to annoy you or any such thing as that.
MR. LEIFER: When you got the phone call from the Cassaras, Mr. & Mrs. Cassara, in New Rochelle w/regard to having received a card, a get well card and you contacted them.
DET. BYRD: We just turned over the tape, the time is 3:15.
MR. LEIFER: We learned from the Cassaras after seeing your return address on the envelope and the Cassaras checked their records and they came up with a name David Berkowitz. Did you in any way look up David Berkowitz in the phone directory to see whether or not there was a David Berkowitz in the area?
WHEAT CARR: Yes.
FRANCES CARR: Yes we did, yes.
MR. LEIFER: And as a result of that did you in any way attempt to contact the person to find out what it was all about?
FRANCES CARR: Him and me?
MR. LEIFER: Yeah.
FRANCES CARR: No.
MR. LEIFER: So there was no communication between yourselves to Berkowitz, you never went up the hill to take a look at who he might have been.
FRANCES CARR: No. Not when he could shoot the dog, I wouldn’t go let him shoot me. No, we would have had no reason to do that. Maybe a reason but it would not seem like a safe thing to do. (voice) Alright, so the answer is no.
MR. LEIFER: Now Mr. Carr you went to the 109 Precinct w/certain information, is that correct? That was a few days before Berkowitz was arrested.
SAMUEL CARR: Yes.
MR. LEIFER: And you could tell us generally what you told police at that time.
SAMUEL CARR: Could I date back a couple weeks?
MR. LEIFER: Sure.
SAMUEL CARR: I had information, I called the 109th and I was told the detective would get back to me. I never received the phone call, number one. Number two after reading the article in the Yonkers paper I said to myself choice language, so I had worked the board the night and I had about two or three hours sleep the night, then I read the paper. So I come downstairs and say I don’t know what the hell is going on but I’m going out to the 109th. I went out to the 109th and downstairs the patrol officer directed me upstairs. Upstairs there was a patrolman sitting here there was a short person, I would say 5’7’’, 5’8’’ dressed up, and then there was an officer sitting, patrol officer in civilian clothes back there and they said can I help you. I says yes, I have information here, I says I called I says I was told a detective would get back to me, never did and I says I have and I’m pretty sure, I says this is so and so. So he said to him, patrol officer said, Captain you want me to handle it. He says yeah. So I sat at the desk and the captain who was sitting, stood up over there and I had given him all the information that I had collected. And they asked me why I thought it was him. I says from information that I had gotten. So I said do you want this information they had written down, he says no, we’ll throw it in the harbor.
FRANCES CARR: That’s what you told them, you gave them the information and they said they’d throw it in the harbor.
SAMUEL CARR: That’s right. The next thing you know, all hell broke loose.
MR. LEIFER: What information was that that you had given them at the 109?
SAMUEL CARR: I had given them information pertaining to Berkowitz, his car and so forth.
MR. LEIFER: And now, information w/regard to his car, what did you know about his car and how did you learn about his car?
SAMUEL CARR: Through sources I learned what kind of car he was driving.
MR. LEIFER: You say through sources, how did you learn what kind of car he was driving? We’re trying to clear up muddy waters here and if you’re gonna say through sources I learned, it’s not helping us.
SAMUEL CARR: Information was given to me.
Mr. Ecker: Apparently Mr. Carr had a friend in law enforcement who supplied the information for him. He’d prefer not to advise the identity of that individual for obvious reasons.
MR. LEIFER: Well if it was Wheat she told us that she had checked something out on computers, so ah…
WHEAT CARR: Wasn’t me.
Mr. Ecker: No it wasn’t you.
MR. LEIFER: Well was it a Yonkers police officer who checked out his license plate was it a NY state trooper, was it a NYC city police officer. (voice) If you want, tell him, what agency it was.
SAMUEL CARR: It was a federal agency.
MR. LEIFER: And through a federal agency you learned about Berkowitz’s car.
SAMUEL CARR: That’s correct. Due to the simple reason when I would leave here I would drive out and then I would notice a tail on me so I would, I’d go visit friends in Eastchester, an elderly gentleman 83 years old, certain days I would go over and play pinocle with him or gin rummy, and I, in order not w/this happening around, I didn’t want to bring any more problems to this 83 year-old gentleman where he lived. So I would go through take him on a run what I call a run I would go every place but anyplace except Eastchester. In fact, one night I noticed a tail on me and I spotted the car and I didn’t see the plate number. I went through one-way streets hoping to get locked up so I could get this guy that was behind me. I didn’t know who it was didn’t know how many people were in the car, all I know was that a car was on my tail.
MR. LEIFER: What kind of car was it
SAMUEL CARR: I couldn’t tell that night.