By Serial Killer Magazine
This is part two of the complete transcript of the eleven-hour interrogation of Robert Pickton by the RCMP on 23 February 2002, the day after his arrest. Pages 64 to 126 of 252.
Sergeant Bill Fordy is still leading. Constable Dana Lillies takes over the questioning through this stretch.
What this is. A police interrogation reproduced complete and unabridged. Nothing added, removed or corrected. The transcript’s own spelling errors, false starts and repetitions are preserved exactly as the RCMP transcriber produced them, along with the speaker labels, the action notes, the redaction markers and the page numbering, so any passage can be cited to its page.
Who holds it. A Royal Canadian Mounted Police record, Project Evenhanded, file 2001E-1388. A Canadian record, so the United States public-domain rule for government works does not apply. Crown copyright generally runs fifty years, which would place this 2002 transcript within term, and it was also used as an exhibit in R. v. Pickton.
What has not been verified. The recording was not listened to. The transcript came from a third-party host whose own right to post it has not been established. Long dashes in the original typography have been rendered as hyphens; no word has been altered.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Anyway in other words?
Robert PICKTON: I’m not fussy.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: You’re not fussy. Alright.
Robert PICKTON: But I haven’t, like I say I haven’t had it for awhile.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: You haven’t had sex in about how long?
Robert PICKTON: Just about a year.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: About a year eh.
Robert PICKTON: Um, hum.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Okay. Um, it’s funny you know, when they do studies um, you know, on people that have ah, you know, been identified as having killed lots of people and hurt lots of people, they always look back on their lives and something happened to them they were younger in terms of a relationship or something, where they had, things didn’t go well. Alright. You know, they look back and it’s one thing that the experts can say. When you look back on your life, is there a time where you know, tell me about your first sexual relationship you had with a girl.
Robert PICKTON: (SHRUGS) Not much to say. Now when I was in school, a lot of girls went to school with me and wasn’t interested.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Um, hum. So tell me about the first time you had sex.
Robert PICKTON: I can’t remember.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Okay, tell me about the first time you were with a prostitute.
Robert PICKTON: I didn’t even have sex with Connie neither. But the first girl was . . . going out with.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.
Robert PICKTON: Don’t know. I got a good memory but I don’t know.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Well you want, you must remember the first prostitute. I mean everybody does. It’s normal the first time you have a prostitute, to remember it. It’s perfectly normal.
Robert PICKTON: I think about the first time was when I was with Lynn. Ah, the one that knifed me.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.
Robert PICKTON: Probably my first time. And even that time I didn’t know any, anything I could only go to sleep. Kept on, we’re just heading home, I was just gonna go home, and go to bed. But I had thirty-four hundred dollars on me. But I think the first time was when I, when I got knifed there. (YAWNING) (HEAD IN HIS HANDS)
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.
Robert PICKTON: (INDECIPHERABLE) I don’t know. V(6)
Sgt. Bill FORDY: So the first time you were with a prostitute was ---------- is that what you’re telling me?
Robert PICKTON: Yeah, I guess so.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: And the only other prostitute you’ve ever been with is Roxanne?
Robert PICKTON: Roxanne.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: And ...
Robert PICKTON: Roxanne.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Yeah.
Robert PICKTON: She’s nice, she’s a nice person.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Yeah, and she’s missing?
Robert PICKTON: Is she missing?
Sgt. Bill FORDY: I’m asking, I don’t know.
Robert PICKTON: I don’t know.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Do you think she’s dead?
Robert PICKTON: I hope not.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Okay.
Robert PICKTON: I haven’t seen her for awhile.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Yeah.
Robert PICKTON: I hope not. I haven’t seen her for awhile. Like I seen her, like I says, she phoned me about three months ago. Hi Willy, this is Roxanne. (YAWNING)
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Um, hum. Okay um, so I guess what you’re telling me then ah, Robert, or Rob is that none of these girls have ever been to your place and you never had sex with any of these girls.
Robert PICKTON: No. But that doesn’t mean very much neither.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Well actually it means a lot. I’m gonna tell you something okay. The police in this investigation are some of the best policemen in the province, some of the policemen have the most integrity in the province right. Alright. Nothing is gonna....
Robert PICKTON: (INDECIPHERABLE). Dana LILLIES: Hi, how you doin’?
Robert PICKTON: Not too bad. (13:13) Dana LILLIES: Um, I just brought you guys some lunch.
Robert PICKTON: Oh thank you. Dana LILLIES: You’ll be able to eat something right. Um, do you want a juice or a pop?
Robert PICKTON: If possible. Dana LILLIES: Coke, Orange juice.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: I’ll have Coke too. Dana LILLIES: (INDECIPHERABLE)
Robert PICKTON: It don’t matter, it don’t matter. Anything. Dana LILLIES: You want Orange juice, Coke?
Sgt. Bill FORDY: What you got? Dana LILLIES: Orange juice. That too.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: I’ll have (INDECIPHERABLE). Thanks. You gotta go to the bathroom or anything?
Robert PICKTON: What’s that?
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Gotta go to the bathroom?
Robert PICKTON: No, I’m okay, I’m fine.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Thanks man. I just gotta double check and see what this says, because I’ve got allergies. What you got?
Robert PICKTON: I don’t know what I got.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Have a look. (LEAVES ROOM - PICKTON DRINKS ORANGE JUICE AND PUTS LUNCH ASIDE - 2 MIN 25 SEC) You didn’t eat it?
Robert PICKTON: No, no thanks.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: You don’t want it. Do you mind if I eat mine?
Robert PICKTON: Go ahead, go ahead. I’m just a plain guy.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: So am I, that’s why I’m taking all this garbage off, these vegetables. (PAUSE 40 SEC) well what do you weigh?
Robert PICKTON: Hum?
Sgt. Bill FORDY: How much you weigh?
Robert PICKTON: Hundred and seventy-five pounds.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Look like you’re in good shape. Not bad actually. Do you like pizza?
Robert PICKTON: Don’t like pizza.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: No. Fattening?
Robert PICKTON: No, I like chicken or meat better than anything else. (INDECIPHERABLE). Chicken.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Well I sure appre, appreciate your ah, being such a nice guy with me. Well I treat people the way I want to be treated, better than being an asshole to them you know. Where about’s were you in Michigan, where else did you go? Detroit?
Robert PICKTON: Detroit is Michigan.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Yeah, but Detroit City.
Robert PICKTON: Pontiac.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.
Robert PICKTON: Nice area around there.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Yeah, I met my wife in Niagara Falls, New York which isn’t that far. That whole area’s so populated now. Detroit, Buffalo, Toronto, it’s concrete like for miles and miles and miles and miles. (PAUSE 15 SEC) what kind was yours.
Robert PICKTON: I don’t know.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Oh, you didn’t know (INDECIPHERABLE). (WHISPERING) Mine is ham. What do you think about those peppercorn porks and stuff that Safe Way sells now? Sell them decorated up.
Robert PICKTON: It’s ah, pork chops and...
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Yeah, I’m the same. (PAUSE 40 SEC) (FORDY EATING) Got go to the can?
Robert PICKTON: No, I’m okay.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: You’re sure you’re okay?
Robert PICKTON: Yeah. Okay.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Alright. (PICKTON TAKES A DRINK)
Robert PICKTON: Yeah, I don’t know where Roxanne’s gone, I know about a month ago they says ah, she’s in Vancouver there. Month, month and a half ago.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.
Robert PICKTON: Well maybe two months ago. It was, it was around December I think.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Um, hum. December this year?
Robert PICKTON: Last year.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Or um, 2001. Gave you a blowjob or head.
Robert PICKTON: That was a long time ago.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: (LAUGHING)
Robert PICKTON: She’s good, she’s real good, she’s real good.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Gives good head?
Robert PICKTON: Um, hum. She’s real good. Nice person. Very, very nice person.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Um, hum. So I’ll give you a couple of minutes you can eat that if you like. Alright.
Robert PICKTON: That’s okay.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: I’m just gonna go to the washroom, you gotta go?
Robert PICKTON: No.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: I’ll be right back. (LEAVES ROOM 4 MIN 30 SEC) (FORDY RE- ENTERS ROOM. PICKTON MOVES ABRUPTLY) You didn’t eat. How’s a guy to stay, work so hard without ever eatin’.
Robert PICKTON: Well I like to eat.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Just don’t eat now, this time of the day.
Robert PICKTON: Yeah. Yeah, I eat about eight.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: We can box this up then, and if you want to eat it later, you can eat later, how’s that. I’ll put it down there. What do you make of all that media this has gotten?
Robert PICKTON: Out to lunch. Out to lunch.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Pretty spectacular eh? You’re like the Pope. (LAUGHING)
Robert PICKTON: Out to lunch.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Um, hum. There’s been ah, a lot of it around our office too. When this first broke, you can imagine everybody, they were gettin’ calls to everybody. Actually I got called into a meeting with some ah, senior guys, that I don’t know how you do that. Um, are you with me?
Robert PICKTON: Um, hum.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: When ah, some of us thought that it was at your place ah, was in the media about what was at your house.
Robert PICKTON: At the house?
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Do you remember that, at the trailer I mean, out at your property.
Robert PICKTON: I don’t know, I wasn’t there.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: No, no, no. It was in the media. No, I didn’t mean you were there, sorry, you misunderstood me. And there was stuff in the papers, on the radio.
Robert PICKTON: Yeah, you can’t go by what it says on paper.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Well I know that. Tell me about that.
Robert PICKTON: People put anything in there, (INDECIPHERABLE) pay some money, what are reasons for ah, get some money for drugs and they’ll put anything, any kind of story in there.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: What do you mean? About the inhaler you mean.
Robert PICKTON: Well, I don’t know if it is about the inhaler. If it is about the inhaler or anything I don’t know anything about this here. But anyways over and above I mean.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Mmm.
Robert PICKTON: They’ll put anything in the paper. Like ah, when Dinah went missing.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Yeah.
Robert PICKTON: Big thing in the paper, heard about missing.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Dinah’s not missing.
Robert PICKTON: Yeah, I know that.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: I know that too. That’s pretty spectacular though wasn’t it? One of the ah, ...
Robert PICKTON: I know Cheryl.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Hum?
Robert PICKTON: I know Cheryl.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Cheryl?
Robert PICKTON: The one that was in the paper there.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: I’m sorry, I’m confused.
Robert PICKTON: The one that was in the paper, the one that was worried about her.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Oh, oh, worried about Dinah you mean.
Robert PICKTON: Yeah, I’ve known Cheryl for a lot of years.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Yeah.
Robert PICKTON: I know her for a long, long time.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Yeah.
Robert PICKTON: I know her mom.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: How do you know her?
Robert PICKTON: Through friends.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Have you ever had sex with her?
Robert PICKTON: No. Through friends.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Yeah.
Robert PICKTON: I knew her mom.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Yeah. So you know the whole family. How long you been with Dinah?
Robert PICKTON: Seven years, eight years.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Yeah. Consider one, her one of your best friends?
Robert PICKTON: Nice person. Nice person. (13:30)
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Yeah.
Robert PICKTON: Nice person.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.
Robert PICKTON: Really never had sex with her.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Pardon me?
Robert PICKTON: I never had sex with her.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: You’ve never had sex with her, for seven years. Really. Wow.
Robert PICKTON: You don’t believe me, you can ask her.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: No, no I mean I don’t, I’m not gonna say I think you’re lying to me. It just seems that’s an awful long time to be with a girl and never have sex.
Robert PICKTON: I might help people out.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Yeah. Well that’s one thing that, (OVER TALKING)
Robert PICKTON: I try, I try to help people out.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Try to help people out and stuff. What else you doin’ for money?
Robert PICKTON: Who me?
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Yeah.
Robert PICKTON: I just want to get doin’ pigs.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Pigs. What else?
Robert PICKTON: That’s it.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Now your brother said in the paper something about ah, buying cars or something.
Robert PICKTON: I buy cars from the Vancouver Police Department.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Tell me about that.
Robert PICKTON: Well I buy all the, all the, all the, the vehicles from the Vancouver Police.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Yeah.
Robert PICKTON: I got a contract there. I get anywhere up to about seventy a year.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Seventy. That’s one a week.
Robert PICKTON: Seventy a year.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: More than one a week. Yeah. How’d you ever get that contract?
Robert PICKTON: I had that contract for about four years. For about three years I guess, four years.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.
Robert PICKTON: About three or four years.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Yeah, so what’s the deal, you tow the vehicles for them or?
Robert PICKTON: No.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Just buy them?
Robert PICKTON: Just buy the veh... just buy the ones that are up for salvage, up for scrap.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.
Robert PICKTON: And you buy it from other auctions and here and there, Canada Auctions, and Able Auctions and Ross Auctions and ship ‘em out and just peel off whatever you don’t want off of them, ship ‘em out to the bone yard and the rest goes to I just salvage whatever I can, the alternators, starters, this, that, little stuff. Maybe a good motor. If it’s a half decent vehicle, then I, then I bring it over to my place there, strip it out, pull the motor out. Sell the motor.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: To bad you don’t, can’t refund lottery tickets or anything in them and...
Robert PICKTON: Well one time there, I got a vehicle there, it had six hundred dollars in it.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: That’s all right, that’s like winning the lottery.
Robert PICKTON: But that’s not mine.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: It’s like winning the lottery.
Robert PICKTON: Yeah, but it’s not mine.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: What did you do with the money?
Robert PICKTON: No, it’s not mine, I mean myself, I mean, even if I can find money in there, it’s not mine, I can’t take it. It’s not mine to have.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: So what did you do with that six hundred bucks then?
Robert PICKTON: It went back to the guy who had the, who had the vehicle.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: So whenever you find something in the vehicle then you always take it back to the owners?
Robert PICKTON: Usually if I can find ‘em, because it’s not really mine to have. I don’t, I don’t, I don’t steal from anybody, I don’t have to, me myself, I try to help people out. Like people steal from me right, left, and center and I try to help and knife’s in the back.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.
Robert PICKTON: But now I’ll still help up today.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Well you know what, it’s good to hear that you’re like that Rob.
Robert PICKTON: Yeah. Well the only thing is, if I had to do the whole thing over again, I’ll try and help. Even if I get knifed in the back again.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.
Robert PICKTON: I’ll still try to help.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Yeah. So when you take stuff back to these owner’s do they ever say thanks or do they just expect you to do that because the cops had the car or how does that work?
Robert PICKTON: No. No, no, no, no, no. The vehicle’s from the Vancouver Police, I mean whatever becomes of them, it doesn’t matter it’s already been checked out. I got ah, ah, one truck I got out of from Vancouver Police Department, it was, it had the seat folded in, had a big ax in there, blood, blood all over the ax. I don’t know if the police ever did find that ax, if, they try and find the weapon on that one. But I opened the seat up and there’s a, there’s a...
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Is it still there?
Robert PICKTON: No it’s gone now. Big single bladed axe, blood all over it.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: I think they found one out at your place.
Robert PICKTON: An axe?
Sgt. Bill FORDY: I think so, yeah, maybe they found it.
Robert PICKTON: Anyway, the thing is, that came out so ah, there, if, if, if that’s the one then, they found it, then I don’t know. It was at my place, it was at the house, front house.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: No, I thought it was in the workshop. Maybe I’m, maybe I was wrong, maybe it’s a different one.
Robert PICKTON: All I know there’s supposed to be ah, I know it’s a single bladed axe (13:35) and it had blood, blood all over it. It came out of ah, 1989 Chev Astro. Astro Mini Van.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.
Robert PICKTON: Yeah.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.
Robert PICKTON: And the back seat was folded together and it was laying right in there.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Yeah.
Robert PICKTON: But that’s ah, I’m going back about a year and two, almost two and a half, three years ago.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Yeah.
Robert PICKTON: Two years, two and half years ago. It had blood all over the back, ah, the back rests of the seats and everything else. Now whatever’s took place I don’t have a clue. But life goes on. Well, well when I took anything from the Vancouver Police Department they don’t, well they said we don’t want anything back, we don’t want nothing. So just take everything, bring everything over and, and I sold the other one for two or three hundred bucks or whatever else.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Now is it your practice um, to search those vehicles when you get them right away, to see if they have mistaken, mistakenly left or left anything?
Robert PICKTON: I, I bring so many vehicles in, I bring so much in. I go through about a hundred and fifty vehicles a year. I haven’t got the time of day to worry about one needle or one of this or one of that.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: One what? You say needle?
Robert PICKTON: (TAKES A DRINK) One needle or...
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Needle?
Robert PICKTON: Needles.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Oh, needle.
Robert PICKTON: Needles or anything else or whatever you know what I mean. I look at the radio or look at this or look at that and look at the side of, look at the vehicle shape or whatever. If I can use the front end, if I can use this part or that part or whatever.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Did you ever go through the trunks or the glove boxes?
Robert PICKTON: Yeah, there’s everything in them. Yeah, everything in them.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Like what?
Robert PICKTON: Anything you want to get. You won’t believe what you find in those things. You find this, you find that, inhalers, so on so forth. Fuck it’s outrageous. Outrageous. Mostly bras, tops, this, that, clothes, people sleeping in them, but now that they got tighter security at the, at the compound now. Now they got security there twenty-four hour a day.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.
Robert PICKTON: Before they never had that. They used to take those stereos out, they’d take this out, take that out. And I just got a hold, just got off the shelves or left, maybe a good motor.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: So when you find that stuff, is it normal for you to ah, put it in bags and send it to people and stuff?
Robert PICKTON: No. I never bother me myself, if you bothered with every, you don’t get any work done.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: God you’d be doin’ it all day I guess eh?
Robert PICKTON: Ah fuck, I mean, I, I bring two to three to four a day in.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Oh, wow.
Robert PICKTON: I haven’t got the time of day to bother with it.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Yeah, no, I see what you mean.
Robert PICKTON: Myself I mean it’s ah, clothes everything else in it, everything stays right in the vehicle, I just, I just take out whatever I, if I see a good motor or see this or see that, that’s it, that’s all I take out.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: So you leave everything in the vehicle.
Robert PICKTON: I don’t take anything out.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Oh, okay.
Robert PICKTON: I don’t take anything out.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: So you never take anything into your shop?
Robert PICKTON: Ah, if I see something in value I do.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Like what?
Robert PICKTON: Well if I see tools or see that or see that, see this or see that, anything that is worth value, I put to one side. Yes I do.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: So everything else you just leave in the car.
Robert PICKTON: It, I mean ah, I don’t have the time of day to play with everything.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Yeah, I understand, no. No I was just...especially coming that, that quantity coming in and coming out and you know, if you’re gonna, if you’re doin’ three or four a day....
Robert PICKTON: I see so much...
Sgt. Bill FORDY: You’re doin’ more cars than you are pigs for Christ’s sake.
Robert PICKTON: No.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: (LAUGHING) I’m just kiddin’.
Robert PICKTON: I go through a lot of scrap.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Mmm. So you said you, you’d find bras, is that what you said, bras and clothes?
Robert PICKTON: Clothes of every, of every sort, of every sort. You name it, it was all there. Everything’s there.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Like what?
Robert PICKTON: Well clothes, pants, this, that, people live in the cars everything else. And ah, I think a lot of it’s being picked up and they’re being brought over and just you know, some place for them to shack out or whatever. Yeah. Now over and above even the last party that brought their clothes over to me, they brought their clothes over to me and she was staying in a van, in a, in a car or van. No a trailer, no a van, a van behind the Cobalt. and I says, I just threw all the, all her stuff on the bed there, she’s supposed to be coming back the next day and do the washing and drying. Cause all her clothes and everything else. I don’t know whatever happened to her. I don’t know whatever happened to her.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: What’s her name?
Robert PICKTON: French girl. She’s a french girl. All her clothes, everything else is ah, still on the bed. And all I know that ah, that’s all hers.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: What you said, you said something about the hotel or something.
Robert PICKTON: Behind the Cobalt.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: What about it?
Robert PICKTON: That’s where she, that’s where she was staying in the van behind the Cobalt. Ah, three or four or five vehicles back there, staying back there.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Oh, she came over and told you that.
Robert PICKTON: Yeah. That’s where she was staying. Another person was staying on the, behind the ah, underneath the Geogia viaduct.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Who was that?
Robert PICKTON: I don’t know, she’s probably still there.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Oh, so not a girl that’s on the poster here?
Robert PICKTON: No, not that I, I don’t know. I can’t tell one from another, there’s so many of ‘em, back and forth.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Well I’ll tell you what though, If you, if you were the guy that killed all fifty of those girls you’d remember them. So I’ll tell what, you know what, one thing I’ll say is that I’ve talked to a lot of killers.
Robert PICKTON: Um, hum.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: And you do remember those heightened things cause they’re important things in your life. So if that was the case, then you would have remembered them.
Robert PICKTON: I don’t, believe me I don’t.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Unless you’re in an absolute frenzy or something.
Robert PICKTON: I don’t remember any one of these really I don’t, honestly. I’m telling you the honest truth.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Well that’s all I want, is I want you to tell me the truth. I appreciate that.
Robert PICKTON: I’m telling the honest truth. I am telling you that. And ah, anything about this inhaler and everything else I don’t know nothing about this ...
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Tell me about that. Tell me what you know.
Robert PICKTON: I don’t, I don’t know nothing about it, really I don’t, I honestly, I don’t. My lawyer told me about that, when, when I was at the lawyer’s office. And I says if it came from that big black bag, that was in Nancy’s room, that girl that was staying in the van brought it over to me. And Dinah will straighten that up for you. She knows all about it. That’s all I do know, cause Dinah knows her. And I never had sex with her. She stayed over one night and I, I gave her a hundred dollar bill and I never had sex with her. And ah, everything’s, everything’s in that ah, black bag came from her. It’s a big long bag with everything in it and everything else. Now ah, anymore than that I mean a lot of this stuff is ah, I don’t know. I got people coming in and out of my place like you wouldn’t believe. There’s more people coming in and out of my place than Cod Liver pills. Now my place is, you won’t believe how many people even, even after hours. If you don’t believe me you can talk to Nancy. She was staying there for almost five months. She was scared, she says Willy ah, don’t go outside or anything else because she says, she’s terrified, even, even when I worked in the barn at night.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.
Robert PICKTON: She says I want, I can’t go to bed til, til you come in. I phoned the paramedics up on Lynn, when she was staying at my place. She ah, she was overdosed everything else. Well I was going to kill her, why didn’t, why didn’t, why didn’t, why did I phone the paramedics up, why do you bring the, bring the police department and everything else in there. Do I look like a murderer? The innocent people go to jail too, believe me, they can, they can be set up, people out there will set anybody up for anything. And I’m not trying to hide anything, I’m not trying to get away from anything but I’m telling you the honest truth. You can take me as I am, you can take me any way ah, whatever. I don’t know, I mean I can’t read anybody else’s mind. I’m myself and the problem is I’m sorry about ah living, I’m sorry about the way I am, but I’ll still be out there to help the next person when they need help. And I don’t care about this party, or that party if they need a hand I will help and I hope to get the same thing in return. Now any more than that, I can’t help you. There is quite a few people know about my gun, I never kept anything, any, anything for a secret. I kept open minded and I kept everything to myse, ah, everything to everything.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: You’re Hilti gun.
Robert PICKTON: No, no. Everything. Even my .22, everything else. I never kept any secrets.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Tell me about your .22.
Robert PICKTON: Well I had a little .22, I shouldn’t be talkin’ because my, my lawyer’s not here.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Mmm, it’s up to you.
Robert PICKTON: Yeah, cause I shouldn’t be, I really shouldn’t be. But the problem is I mean, I’m open and like I says, I never kept any secrets, I told everybody about everything. Dave would come over, oh, yeah, I got one, I got a .22 and so on and so forth and the, and it’s also, I got this and I got that, yeah. Only thing is ah, sometimes I use the .22, I shouldn’t be talkin’ but I’ll tell you this ah, I use the .22, sometimes I do big, big boars. Big boars, I mean my Hilti thing, my pin driver goes in that far, the head is very, very solid, very heavy. Very, very big boned, sometimes you have to use three or four or five shots to even bring ‘em down.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Hum.
Robert PICKTON: That’s heavy, they’re, they’re...
Sgt. Bill FORDY: That would be a lot of work, wouldn’t it.
Robert PICKTON: Oh yeah, couldn’t do that. Then they make a lot noise.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.
Robert PICKTON: So the problem is I put plastic around it, just to quietin’ the noise down a little bit, and I really, mean big pigs.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.
Robert PICKTON: And that’s why, and then I figure I, I put this here little plastic thing over the top of it, over the top but you probably know about that too right. Anyways I put that thing over the top of it to quiet it down, but I never used it.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Ah, so you just lost me. Say that again. We were talking about your Hilti gun.
Robert PICKTON: No. Talking about a .22.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Okay. Alright, sorry.
Robert PICKTON: But they are both .22 is anyways is .22 calibre and the Hilti and the .22 on the other.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Yeah. Yeah.
Robert PICKTON: But I shouldn’t be talking about that. That’s, that’s for the lawyer. But anyways like I says, you could take as I am, you and take me any which way you want, you could drag me up and down the road here and that still doesn’t make me remember anything, I remember dates, I remember this, I remember that, remember faces or whatever but I don’t remember any of these people really. Really, honestly I don’t. Like you can link me up with them, I’m charged, I’m you can do whatever you want to do with me, that still doesn’t make me a murderer, just because but I don’t know ‘em and as you guys can link whatever onto me I can’t help that, because that’s your privilege. I got nailed to the cross, I’m just a plain little farm boy, I’m just myself but again I don’t do, I wouldn’t change very much. If I had to do the whole thing over again, I’m myself. I’m sorry, I’m sorry for living. And ah, you know, if I can, I’ll take my life for any one of those people (POINTS TO PICTURE BOARD) just to, (CRYING) just to have them alive. So...sorry.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Can I sha, just shake my hand okay. I want to make a deal with you here right now okay. It’s okay Rob, don’t, don’t apologize for anything, don’t apologize for who you are okay. We just shook hands alright. We’re gonna make a deal, you and I. Okay. (STANDS UP)
Robert PICKTON: (OVER TALKING) I’m sorry. I’m sorry, I’m sorry.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: You don’t need to apologize to me ever again. Alright because I accept you for who you are, I don’t want you to change anything, who you are. We’re gonna make a deal, you and I, right now.
Robert PICKTON: I’m really sorry, I mean I can’t help you any more than that. But I can, if I take my life for any one of those people, I would do so.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Thank you for telling me that Rob.
Robert PICKTON: Any one of them, just so that... (PAUSE 10 SEC - FORDY STANDING WRITING ON BOARD)
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Okay, I’m gonna tell you something about myself okay. I’m an honest guy, I have a lot of integrity and when I give somebody my word I mean it with all my heart okay. I’m gonna swear on my kids head here today, I promise two things alright. I’ll promise to treat you well and with respect. (SHAKES HANDS) I’ll promise you that okay. I promise to tell the truth, shake my hand on that too okay. (SHAKES HANDS) Sign my name right here. Bill FORDY. Rob I want you to stand up, stand up right now for me please. I want you to make me the same promise that I just made you. (PICKTON WRITES) Okay, you promise to treat me well and with respect and you promise to tell the truth. Thank you Rob. (SHAKES HANDS) Have a seat. Rob I told you that this was a massive investigation okay. (OVER TALKING) I just want you to listen to me for one second okay. Rob listen to me for one second okay. I told you earlier that this is a massive investigation.
Robert PICKTON: I know that.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: (STANDING) There are some of the best policemen in the province working on this investigation. Some of the sharpest minds are involved in this investigation okay.
Robert PICKTON: Um, hum.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: I promised you right now I will treat you with respect and I promise you that I will tell you the truth here today. Robert I’m telling you right now you did kill some of these girls. I’m telling you right now you took them away from their families and I’m gonna go over some of that Robert. Okay, I want you to listen to me.
Robert PICKTON: Um, hum. (HEAD ON HAND)
Sgt. Bill FORDY: And I want you to know that I speak from my heart okay. I want to understand you here today, I’m not here for one second not liking you or holding any disdain for you. Okay, but know that I know the truth. Alright I’m speaking to you from today from the heart.
Robert PICKTON: Um, hum.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: I’m not gonna lie to you, I’m not gonna mislead you, and I don’t want you to say anything for a couple of minutes okay.
Robert PICKTON Okay.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: I want you think about what I have to say. (STANDS) Because this investigation is built like a house, it’s a house okay. Remember we talked about Helen COOK. A house is built with a foundation Rob, and in that foundation, around that foundation are building blocks. (SITTING) Alright and the building blocks of this investigation is DNA. The same DNA that put Peter Van OSSELAER in jail for twenty-five years is gonna put you in jail okay. You’re, you’re gonna get convicted on these murders, alright. There’s no disputing that anymore. The only thing that I’m here to do though if to try to understand you and try to understand why Rob. I don’t sit here holding any ill feelings towards you, or feeling, or holding anything against you. Okay, I don’t, I don’t sit here and hate you and that’s one of the reasons I’m here today is because I have the ability to, to get beyond the obvious.
Robert PICKTON: I know that, I told you that already. (FORDY STANDING)
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Okay. So what I’m gonna do is I’m gonna go over some of this evidence with you. Right now, because girl number four here, Mona WILSON, was at your house.
Robert PICKTON: That I don’t know.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Hear me out please. I know, I already know the answer and I told you I’d give you my word, I’m not gonna lie to you, I’m here on video I give my word in front of everybody. I’m not gonna lie to you. But I’m gonna show you right now, that you’re going to jail. Okay and you’re gonna go to jail for a long time. And that decision to speak or not to speak is yours alone. Right, nobody can make you say anything you don’t want to say Rob and I’m certainly not gonna do that to you. I’m gonna treat you with respect and dignity, just like I gave you my word right here. I promise to treat you well and with respect and I promise to tell the truth. You and I both made that deal right now so I don’t want you to say anything to me right now okay. Cause when you talk to me I want it to be the truth. Alright. This girl here Mona WILSON has been at your place.
Robert PICKTON: I don’t know.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: She has been. Okay. I know that, everybody in this building knows that because there is conclusive evidence. I’m not talking Rob, about one drop or two drops of DNA, that put Peter Van OSSELAER in jail. I’m talking about huge amounts of DNA. I’m talking about blood letting, I’m talking about transfer DNA, I’m talking about passive drops. Irresputible, indisputable, forensic evidence, one in forty-two million chance, do you know how many people there are in the world. Five or six billion. Her DNA match comes back one in forty-two trillion. You’re done, okay. Rob you’re done on this and I’ve spent some time here with you today, and you know what, I don’t see you as a monster. I don’t see you as the kind of guy that would go out and hurt innocent little kids...
Robert PICKTON: I wouldn’t. I don’t.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: And if I thought for one second that you were that kind of person Rob I wouldn’t waste one second of my time with you, I wouldn’t sit here, I wouldn’t care. But I don’t see you as that kind of person, I saw the way that you talked about your mother, you know, how much you love your mother and I understand that because I love my mother the same way that you love your mother. And I wish my mother was still with me (OVERTALKING) at my side everyday.
Robert PICKTON: I wish she was here too.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: And if your mother was still alive and was beside you Rob you probably wouldn’t be in this chair right now, dealing with these issues you’ve have to deal with because all of your problems started after your mom died. That’s when you started killing people.
Robert PICKTON: No.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Not before hand. You telling me you killed someone before your mom died? (PICKTON SHAKING HEAD “NO”) Okay Rob, because we both know that you did okay. So what I want you to do is just listen to me, remember you told me you were gonna tell me the truth. I don’t want you to say any lies to me, I don’t want you to say anything that’s not the truth. Okay. Because and you know what, I understand, let me tell you something else Rob, I understand you, your, your need to lie to me right now, because you’re scared. You know, deep down inside your gut you don’t know what’s gonna happen. You know, you don’t know what’s gonna happen Monday. All you know right now is yes, you are a big media celebrity.
Robert PICKTON: Yeah, no kidding.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: You are bigger than the Pope, you’re bigger than Princess Diana, you’re just like fuckin’ Bin Laden. You know you’re on the front page of every paper in the country today. Every one.
Robert PICKTON: In the paper?
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Everybody knows who you are right now.
Robert PICKTON: In the paper today? They put me in the paper.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Absolutely. This is done, you are over, okay. Only one thing left Rob, that is for me to decide what kind of person you are because there is irrefutable DNA evidence that you are responsible for taking these girls.
Robert PICKTON: You, mean I’m in the paper too, today?
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Yeah. And Rob you know what, when we look at our lives, we look at the map that’s laid out for us, cause there is a map for each of us right. Everything that happens to us Rob, happens for a reason. There’s a reason that you were on that farm, that you were raised the way that you were, that your dad was a hard worker, that your mom was a hard worker, that your sister did what she did to you.
Robert PICKTON: My sister didn’t do anything to me.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: She didn’t do anything, that’s right, you’re exactly right.
Robert PICKTON: No.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: She left the farm.
Robert PICKTON: No.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Hear me out.
Robert PICKTON: She didn’t leave the farm.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Hear me out for a second, she went away to school.
Robert PICKTON: She was going to school.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: I’m not here to talk about her anyway. Rob I’m here to understand you. And we look back on our lives, and we start to, to look at why we are the way we are, you will look back and you will ask yourself gees I wonder why that happened. Why did my mom die, why did I have the relationship that I had with her. Why did Connie not come up and marry me? When all I wanted was I wanted her love, and wanted her to be by my side.
Robert PICKTON: No, no, not necessarily.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: That’s what you wanted.
Robert PICKTON: No, no I says I real, I miss her, still miss her.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Yeah, absolutely, you know what and that’s normal. And you probably still miss your mom.
Robert PICKTON: I miss her a little bit yeah.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: And that’s normal. And if your mom was here, and if your mom was still alive, Rob, you probably wouldn’t be in this situation that you’re in right now. And you said a number of times, if you could go back and change things...
Robert PICKTON: If I could back, I wouldn’t change very much.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: You wouldn’t change very much. You know what that tells me? That deep down inside you have a good side to you.
Robert PICKTON: I wouldn’t change much, I mean I my, myself.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: And you are who you are and that you still like yourself. Because Rob, hard workers, people that get up every morning and work hard like you and I...
Robert PICKTON: Well I’m in the papers today.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Yes you are. Do you know why you’re in the paper? Because you’re done. It’s all over. It’s all over. (PAUSE 9 SEC) And it’s over because all those pieces of that puzzle, all the things that you need to build a case, to build a house are in place. (PAUSE 30 SEC)
Robert PICKTON: I, I don’t think any of those girls been to my place.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Rob you know what, I don’t want you to say that anymore okay.
Robert PICKTON: Okay.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: I want you to tell me the truth as a man, okay. And you know what, if you, if you choose not to talk to me then that’s okay but I’d rather you not talk to me than tell me any lies okay. I prefer that please, out of respect for me and, you know, we shook on it man to man. And ah, I’m a man of my word and I would like you to be a man of your word. Now one of the things that the investigators have done in this investigation and I told you about the blood spatter people and how the best um, investigators in the province and in the country are out there. They’re at your place okay and they are gathering evidence. Alright, they’re gathering evidence from in your (14:03) motor home, or your mobile home, from in the trailers, from in the slaughterhouse, from the workshops, from everywhere okay. They’re bringing equipment in to dig into the ground, they’re gonna be there for a year. Okay, they’re gonna get everything, every buried animal, every buried human, every buried piece of equipment that’s in that yard is gonna be discovered. Okay, you know that they’re spending a million dollars a month just digging. This is the biggest investigation, crime scene investigation in the history of Canada. They’re not gonna stop spending money, they will resolve this. This is a machine, this is a snowball that will not stop. Alright and one of the things they’ve done is they’ve done DNA. They’ve had people come in and look at bloodstains and analyze them, and look at them and they look at the patterns and they can basically write a story, based on what they see. It’s irrefutable, indisputable forensic evidence. Now if we were talkin’ about, just hear me out, if we were talking about one isolated thing, you know what then, that wouldn’t matter. But when you’ve got a freight train of evidence coming down the track that’s different Rob. And this is a freight train mister, this is a super freight train. And that evidence is getting bigger and bigger and bigger, and that train’s only been going for two weeks, mister. A year from now I can’t imagine it’s unbelievable how much evidence there’s gonna be. Alright this, this train right now is on the, is on the, the, the start of the assent down the tracks and there’s already an abundance of evidence. Enough that’s gonna convict you and keep you in jail for a long time. I’m gonna go over some of that, the only thing that matters now, is what kind of person is Robert PICKTON. Cause everybody’s gonna know what you did, just matters what kind of person are you know. And I can’t say what kind of person you are, I, I got a feeling that I think you’re a good person cause I can see it in your eyes, and see you look me in the eyes and I think you are a good person that really does want to help and I thank you for that. Cause if I thought you were the kind of guy that was out hurting innocent little kids, abducting kids, like Clifford OLSON, that would be different my friend. And I hope in my heart of hearts that you’re not that person that’s abducted all those other little kids from the ah, skids too, from the east end too. Cause I hope that’s not the case and if that is the case then I’m wasting my time with you and I’m wrong about you and I really hope Rob, that’s not the case.
Robert PICKTON: Little kids, what do you mean little kids.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: I hope you’re not the kind, the guy that’s been taking some of those other little kids that the media.
Robert PICKTON: Me?
Sgt. Bill FORDY: ...hasn’t got a hold of that. I hope that is not the case.
Robert PICKTON: I don’t know what that’s all about, but I found, what, what you got anyways.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Well what do I got here, you want me to show you?
Robert PICKTON: Yeah.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: I’ll show you, okay. This is a forensic laboratory report Rob. You know what, let me, let me do it better, let me get you some pictures okay. Cause I want to make sure ...that you understand exactly what I’m talking about. This is very, very important. Now I talked to you about DNA right. (FORDY OPENS BLUE BINDER) Do you know how, how DNA transfers, the different ways that DNA transfers? Okay there’s blood right, semen, saliva, skin cells, transfers, there’s all different ways. Like when you and I shake hands your DNA is on my hand. Okay. Do you understand that? While the investigators have been out at your property okay. They called in Jack MELLIS, Jack is an expert in blood spatter analysis, he’s the best in the province. He’s the man, he goes around internationally and lectures okay. He’s in your Dodge motor home..
Robert PICKTON: Dodge motor home?
Sgt. Bill FORDY: The Dodge, the motor home, whatever the heck you want to call it. That’ll be a Dodge motor home, that’s what it’s called. He’s in there okay, and he’s done a forensic examination...
Robert PICKTON: Um, hum.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Let me turn around (FORDY MOVES RIGHT BESIDE PICKTON) here and explain this, of the motor home. Alright. Do you remember this, see the, see the two beds (INDECIPHERABLE) you cant’ see the other one there, do you see the line? See it okay?
Robert PICKTON: Um, hum.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Alright. See you come in here and you go down the hallway and there’s two beds at the end. What we’ve done Rob is we’ve looked at that mattress okay. They took that mattress, they’ve analyzed it, see anything on there?
Robert PICKTON: No.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: What do you see, what do you see here?
Robert PICKTON: A bunch of drawings.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Okay. What are the drawings around? I mean it looks like a little dog, it looks like a poodle actually.
Robert PICKTON: I don’t know.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Actually what it is, is bloodstains. You know, and it’s human blood. Lots of it, it’s called blood letting. Remember we talked earlier about ah, special lighting for different situations that the police use. We talked about the for, the special lights it’s the same mattress under different light.
Robert PICKTON: Um, hum.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: This mattress is in your Dodge, in your motor home, camper whatever the heck you want to call it. Now some of the guys joke around, call it a poodle but it’s not, it’s actually it’s kinda sad and this is Mona WILSON’s blood.
Robert PICKTON: So what’s that to do with me?
Sgt. Bill FORDY: I’ll explain that to you. Let me explain that to you okay. So Mona’s blood, huge blood pooling is on this mattress. Alright. The experts say that that would have rendered her unconscious, the amount of blood pooling there. Cause they’re experts okay, I’m certainly not an expert and neither are you, but I’m, I’m telling you what the experts say. The most, this is the most respected guy in the province. Alright. He’s the, the most respected guy in the province and that’s his expert opinion. This is the wall beside, now you lift the mattress up and this is the wall. Alright. See this? This is called blood spatter alright, that’s from ah, I’ll, I’ll read you his report. But that’s from impact. Like if I was to ah, a hit you ah, with a knife, remember when, when --------- stabbed you, that blood would squirtV(6) off. So there’d be blood squirting all over the place. Alright, that’s what that is. This, this is called transfer blood. Different kind of blood, different pattern, this is still Mona’s blood. So she’s, she’s been ah, this is where she’s been done. This is the corner, zone C still, here’s the date it was seized. What they’ve done here though is they’ve taken the mattress out because that’s crucial evidence right. Just like Peter Van OSSELAER got convicted on. Want to know what Peter Van OSSELAER looked like, this. Peter Van OSSELAER got twenty-five years on that. Alright. Continuation right around the side here, see here, here’s the line actually, you can see where the mattress was lifted from. Here’s the other end, see the line here. See the blood spatter. (PAUSE 18 SEC) Plastic underneath, garbage bags. This is the floor, blood patterns taken. This is the floor again, see what they do Rob, is they take a swab, roll it and get the blood.
Robert PICKTON: But why, what has that got to do with me?
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Hear me out, I’m gonna explain it to you. Her blood is everywhere at your place right, she’s never been to your place. You told me that. This is the floor again, spatter, now trust me, this is not from a bloody nose. Okay.
Robert PICKTON: No, I agree, I agree with that.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Cupboards, ... this is blood from all over the crime scene, this is where she was killed or rendered unconscious anyway. Here’s the most interesting thing, I’ll just skip ahead. See what she’s dragged along the, at the place.
Robert PICKTON: What’s that?
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Blood transfer. Or either that or someone had a lot of blood on them when they went by. So then you either had blood on you or pulled her by. Same thing here. This is a crime scene’s dream come true, this kind of blood letting. And I told you how Peter Van OSSELAER got convicted. This is ten times as much DNA as Peter ever had. (FORDY FLIPPING PAGES) Table, table again, counter, counter, this is the part I want to show you. See again, the underside of the V(6) mattress, the plastic gone, it’s funny that’s how --------- described the place where you had sex with her too.
Robert PICKTON: What?
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Before you guys, before you guys had the stabbing.
Robert PICKTON: No.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: I’m just telling you that’s how she described it. I, I want you to know Rob that like I’m just presenting this to you. Okay.
Robert PICKTON: Um, hum. V(6)
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Like you know, the stuff that I say about what --------- said things like that, that’s their evidence I’m just telling you what their evidence is gonna be okay. That’s all alright, it’s not my ah, my own thoughts alright, I just want you to know that. I’m just , I’m just the messenger here. Okay. Do you understand that? Right. Okay. So we got huge amounts of blood here alright.
Robert PICKTON: But that don’t mean I did it.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Not yet, okay I’m gonna show you how you, how you, you know you’re gonna be convicted, based on DNA and based on some other stuff too, okay. Because we both know that you did it. Right and you know it’s normal right now, to do what you’re doing and kinda grasping to that, to that lie, to that straw. I’ve seen it before in other investigations you know I’ve heard about it in drownings where um, ah, you know someone falls into the water and ah, you know the current is pulling them down and pulling down, and pulling down and there’s been people that have been there and stuck out their hands trying to help people. And instead of taking that person’s hand, that person that’s offering help you know, they hang onto a stick that they think is gonna pull them out of the water. And right now Rob that’s what you’re doing, you’re hanging onto a little bit of a lie hoping it’s gonna pull you out and it’s not okay. Alright, that little lie is not gonna help you right now. The only thing that matters is what kind of person are you now. Because you are, you are gonna be convicted on this. So this DNA here all over the place, it’s all over the place, it’s on the walls, it’s on the floors, it’s on the floor around the wall, it’s on the floor, just hear me out. It’s on the floor around the ah, the mattress. It’s all been analyzed and comes back as Mona. Alright, the other thing that I’m trying to show you.
Robert PICKTON: (OVER TALKING) That’s Mona?
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Hum?
Robert PICKTON: That’s Mona?
Sgt. Bill FORDY: You may not know her as Mona, okay, you just, you just killed her. Um, this is the part I want to show you, let’s take you back. Let’s take, oh there it is, there’s her shoes. She had her shoes on too, when you killed her.
Robert PICKTON: What?
Sgt. Bill FORDY: But what you did , is you put her shoes in the cupboard because they got blood on them (OVER TALKING) too.
Robert PICKTON: No.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Or someone else cleaned up for you after the fact maybe but um, yeah, her DNA is on those too. And the thing is when you handle something like that, people don’t realize of course, that DNA goes two ways right. Like when you and I shook hands this morning ah, I just when we made our deal to tell the truth, you know your DNA is on my hands and my DNA is on your hands, like there’s a transfer. Just like how blood transfers, like where you know, if I go like this Rob, my DNA is on the wall right. And with the, the way the science works nowadays, they can come in just their high tech equipment and they can take that DNA. And what they’ve done, I’m gonna explain it to you, cause this is really fascinating, cause I’m not a scientific kind of guy but it is really fascinating for me. When I ah, when I get to read this, cause as an investigator this is, this is like winning the lottery. You know, you can’t nobody else can come in and say well that, my name’s Robert PICKTON he’s, he’s ah, not really Robert PICKTON. You’re probably wondering well jeez, how did they even get my DNA? We had your DNA, the police had your DNA. Alright and they’ve done an analysis so the first part that they analyzed was the molding, the moldings around the ah, floor and um, the mattress area. Okay. There was a sock there, I guess I must have missed it in the pictures, one of her socks was there too and it had blood on it. Her blood, Mona’s blood, alright. So this girl that you, you’ve never known and you’ve never had at your place there, her DNA’s all over. And you can’t, you can’t argue with that.
Robert PICKTON: But that...
Sgt. Bill FORDY: And you’re, and you’re gonna probably ask yourself how does that tie to me? Cause you’re saying to me right now ...
Robert PICKTON: It doesn’t, I mean I don’t even know her.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Okay, hear me out then. You’re probably saying to me, well Bill yeah, okay, her DNA’s at my place now, okay she died at my place. You, you have to acknowledge that right.
Robert PICKTON: Possible, okay, okay.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Yeah and you’re saying to me Billy ...
Robert PICKTON: I mean, I mean that’s what you say, I mean I, ...
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Hear me out for a second okay.
Robert PICKTON: Okay.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: And you’re saying okay, yeah, I agree with you now, the experts are gonna say she died there. That’s where she died based on the amount of blood. And you’re saying to yourself but Bill how does that prove that it’s me? And you’re saying to yourself show me that it’s me and yeah, I’ll admit it, because you are a logical thinker. That’s what the experts say about you, is you are logical and you think okay, show me and then you told me here today that you were a good person. Right. So you’re a logical thinker and a good person so naturally what you’re gonna say to me is Bill show me how that ties to me. Right, that’s probably what you’re thinking. And then yeah, once you show me I will accept responsibility. That’s what the experts say you’re gonna do, because deep down inside you are a good person, you know the difference between good and bad and let’s face it. So I’m show...
Robert PICKTON: So my picture’s all over the front page.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Hear me out.
Robert PICKTON: Shit. ... I didn’t do anything.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: You know what Rob you did.
Robert PICKTON: I didn’t.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Hear me out, please stop it. I don’t want anymore lies okay. And (14:20) you know what Rob, if your mom was in this room right now, with us, if your mother, whom you love, and whom you respect, was in this room right now Rob, she would want you to tell the truth. (PICKTON TAKES A DRINK) She would want you to be responsible and she would want you to be the standup, solid, good person. Alright. She would want you to find balance in your life because you’ve gone through life probably where you can’t find balance. And you’re searching for that and you don’t understand yourself, and you’re probably scared inside. Because you are a good person that simply wants balance Rob, we all want balance in our lives. That’s all we want is balance, we want balance (FORDY TOUCHES PICKTON WITH THE FILE) and we want to be loved and we want to be respected and that’s all you’ve ever wanted, is to be loved and to have balance in your life. That’s all I want and that’s all you’ve ever wanted and if your mom was here she would want you to tell the truth and to be a standup, responsible guy Rob.
Robert PICKTON: But I didn’t do anything.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: You did okay, stop it. Please don’t say that anymore. I’m gonna show you. Alright and you know what, you’re probably sitting there and you’re, and you’re wondering Jesus how do I get out of this now?
Robert PICKTON: I didn’t do anything.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Hear me out, that’s what you’re wondering right. What’s, what are you wondering?
Robert PICKTON: I didn’t do anything, I don’t know her.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Okay you may not know her name.
Robert PICKTON: No.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: You might know her as a different name...
Robert PICKTON: No. I don’t know her face or nothing else.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Well maybe she looked a little bit different but I know you remember her eye okay and you know what, it’s okay for you right now to be scared. (FORDY MOVES AWAY) It’s okay for you to say jeez Bill I don’t know her. I don’t want to accept responsibility because this is a scary time for you. This is a scary, scary time and there are a lot of people right now that think that you’re some crazy, sick, demented, wacko. There are people out there that think that of you. There are some cops in this building right now that think you’re some crazy, sick, demented, wacko. I’m gonna tell you though, there are also some cops that think these girls live on the East side of Vancouver, they’re out there selling their bodies, they had no self-respect, they’re jamming needles into their arms, heroin, coke, up, down, speed, whatever, they are the masters of their own destiny and everything happens to everybody for a reason. I’ve been involved in cases where I’ve seen girls from the East end stealing from each other, you know, breaking into houses, stealing from innocent, good, hard working people. I’ve seen those kind of girls in action. Okay. There are different camps in this building right now Rob, there are camps that see you as some sick, sick, demented man. Some weirdo, now I hope that’s not the case. You know, you’re probably asking yourself jeez, what are my friends gonna think of me? What are the people around me gonna think of me? Are they still gonna be my friends? (PICKTON - HEAD IN HIS HANDS) Are they gonna leave me and abandon me, leave me on my own, to go away to jail forever and be alone? I can’t work anymore, can’t go back to my farm. I can’t imagine what’s going through your head right now, other than you’re scared. Other than you’re asking yourself why, why did this happen to me?
Robert PICKTON: Why?
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Probably wishing that you were understood when you were younger, asking yourself why, why me? Why have I ended up the way I am? Why have I ended up here today, talking to Bill? Why have I taken these lives, why had I done the things that I’ve done?
Robert PICKTON: I didn’t.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Because you know what Rob, you have and I’ll, I’m, I’m gonna say something else, if you’re not asking yourself why, then I am scared for you. Okay, because then you are beyond help. You are beyond ever understanding yourself and you are beyond ever, anybody else ever understanding you either. You are that weirdo if that’s the case. If you’re not asking yourself why. And it’s normal to cling to a lie right now. I’ve seen it, I’ve seen it in kids where we learn it as young kids. Anybody that’s a parent sees it, you talk to your parents and they’ve seen it, I’ve seen it in my own kids Rob. (PICKTON TAKES A DRINK) I can go outside and ah, you know, my son’s playing outside, he breaks the window, I go over and I say to him, Liam, did you break that window? What’s the first thing that he says? He says no, because when we’re young we learn to lie Rob. And right now you’re...
Robert PICKTON: This is, this is way out of hand.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Well you know what, Rob you’re right, this is way out of hand. (PICKTON HOLDS HIS HEAD IN HIS HAND) This is very, very far gone, this is the train that’s at the end of the track. It’s on the tracks, it’s picking up speed and as that train keeps going there’s gonna be more and more evidence. Rob this investigation is really only two weeks old on you. And there’s already tons of evidence coming in, tons and tons, and tons and tons and tons. The end result of this investigation is inevitable you’re gonna be convicted and you’re gonna go to jail okay. I can’t change that Rob, and neither can you right now. The only thing that matters now is what kind of person are you? What kind of person, more importantly, do you want to be? You can’t change the past, okay, you can’t go back unfortunately, and change the things that you’ve done. You also can’t change the things that were done to you. You can’t do that, if we could everybody in this building would be changing things. That’s not the way it works. The only thing that you can do Rob is you can change what kind of person you want to be. That’s the only thing you can change, that’s the only thing you have any control over now, is what kind of person does Robert William PICKTON want to be. Because you’re done on this. Your brother knows it, Dinah knows it, everybody knows it now and you know it. They’re gonna keep going through your property, they’re gonna find more, they’re gonna find lots of stuff there, stuff that you can’t explain, you can’t explain everything off Rob, you know that. You can’t explain it off in lies anyways. This is over for you. (PAUSE 15 SEC) This is over Rob. This isn’t going away. I know you just wanted to balance you were born into that pig farm, deep down inside you probably loved it at one time. I know that. I know that inside you is that you have some goodness, alright, (FORDY TOUCHES PICKTON’S LEG) I know that.
Robert PICKTON: Okay.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: You know what Rob, you know when your mom died of cancer, and that cancer was inside her, and it just ate and ate and ate and ate away, and kept eating, and she got sicker and sicker and sicker and then she died, and she was gone. That’s what this lie is, it’s like a cancer and it’s gonna kill you and you’re the only one who can take care of that. Right now you’re the surgeon Rob. You got the knife in your hand, you’ve got to cut that cancer out and you’ve gotta cut that lie out. Because if you don’t, it’s gonna kill you. It’s gonna eat you and it’s gonna eat you and it’s gonna eat you, it’s gonna get worse and worse and worse and you’re gonna be asking yourself why, why, why? All you ever wanted was balance. And you wanted to be understood and I want to understand you Rob. Before an alcoholic can get help Rob, he’s gotta say hi, my name is John and I’m an alcoholic. He’s gotta go into that recovery house, he has to say hi, my name is John, and I’m an alcoholic and I need help. Before a fuckin’ drug addict can get help Rob, he’s gotta stand up and say hi, my name is Rick I’m an alcoholic, I’m a drug addict and I need help.
Robert PICKTON: Shit, it’s in the paper and everything else?
Sgt. Bill FORDY: You’re done.
Robert PICKTON: I can’t even go to the fuckin’ courthouse or anything.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Um, hum. That’s where you’re gonna go is in the courthouse. You’re not gonna get released and you’re in jail now, you’re gonna stay here. Yeah, it’s gonna be hard for you, you’re gonna have a long, tough, difficult haul, it’s not gonna be easy. (PAUSE 20 SEC)
Robert PICKTON: So I’m not gonna go back am I?
Sgt. Bill FORDY: No.
Robert PICKTON: Not on paro, not on bail or anything else.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: No. You’ll be held in custody.
Robert PICKTON: I’ll be in custody?
Sgt. Bill FORDY: You’re gonna be in custody, in jail, yeah.
Robert PICKTON: Until I deal with this here.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Well you’re yeah. It’s over. It’s done. The only thing you can do now is start to put it behind you. And in some sense I, you know what I’m sure you’re relieved this is over, this game of cat and mouse is over now. You know Rob they’ve done some of the most incredible things you’ve ever seen in this investigation that they’re doing. You’ve seen the satellite or how they’re using satellites now? I mean they’ve got it nailed down as to when ah, you’re saying that girl dropped off her inhaler, her bag, they got the date nailed down okay. Alright. What would you say if I told you that they’re altering the traj, trajectory on the satellites? And you saw that movie Enemy of the State you know what they can do right. You saw the movie Enemy of the State. Alright did you the, the satellites when they were looking for Bin Laden they were able to satellite right down...
Robert PICKTON: I don’t watch TV.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Okay, well I’ll explain it to you then alright. Alright. They’re able to, to alter the trajectory, the angle of these satellites so they can look down and they can see a license plate on a car. Okay. That’s how good it is. And we know the last day she picked up her, her stuff alright. Now you’ve told me this story...
Robert PICKTON: Who’s this?
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Um, I’m sorry, a different girl. The one that left the bag there.
Robert PICKTON: She’s not here. Is she here too?
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Yeah, she’s here, she’s one of those.
Robert PICKTON: She’s dead.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Yeah.
Robert PICKTON: She’s dead.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Yeah.
Robert PICKTON: The one ah, the one that dropped the bag off.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Yeah.
Robert PICKTON: She’s dead
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Yeah. Yeah.
Robert PICKTON: Where is she?
Sgt. Bill FORDY: I’m gonna explain this to you.
Robert PICKTON: She’s dead.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Hear me out for a second alright. Hear me out for a second okay.
Robert PICKTON: She’s dead too?
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Hear me out for a second okay.
Robert PICKTON: No way, no way.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: (CLEARS THROAT)
Robert PICKTON: I dropped her off at the bus depot.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Yeah, okay. You know what, you dropped her off at the bus depot? Is that what you’re telling me, what your evidence is, is that what you’re telling me.
Robert PICKTON: I did.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Okay.
Robert PICKTON: She never did come back. She was supposed to be back the next, the same night.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Yeah. What time of the day did you do that?
Robert PICKTON: Nine.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Nine in the morning. So you dropped her off at nine in the morning, she slept the night and you took her there at nine in the morning.
Robert PICKTON: Um, hum.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Where did you guys sleep?
Robert PICKTON: In my trailer, in, in the trailer.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Did you have sex with her?
Robert PICKTON: No.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Okay.
Robert PICKTON: I was going to.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: What happened?
Robert PICKTON: It was kinda late in the night and I says I gotta be back to work in the morning. So I tell her I’d take her to the bus depot, in Coquitlam at the Canadian Super Store. So I dropped her off there, she was supposed to be coming back that night. She never come back.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: She never left your property.
Robert PICKTON: What you mean she never left the property?
Sgt. Bill FORDY: She never left your property.
Robert PICKTON: I took her to the bus depot. ... I took her to the bus depot. ... And she was supposed to be back that same, the next night. I gave her a hundred dollar bill (PAUSE - 10 SECONDS) Now you mean she came back?
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Rob you know what, I feel sorry for you right now, trying to tell these lies.
Robert PICKTON: I’m not lying.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Hear me out for a second. Okay. When you say that you remind me of my son. Alright, he’s five years old.
Robert PICKTON: I’m not lying.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: And when he’s caught in a lie that’s exactly how he reacts. Okay.
Robert PICKTON: Okay, I think we better, I better go back.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Okay Rob, you know what, you don’t have to tell me anything alright.
Robert PICKTON: But she, you’re saying she’s dead.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Hear me out for a second. Just let me, let me address one point first okay. You don’t have to tell me anything or say anything to me. Alright, I understand that. But I am duty bound to come in here and talk to you about the case and that’s what I’m gonna do.
Robert PICKTON: And you’re saying she’s dead.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: She’s dead. And we’re gonna walk through some of the evidence here, and you know what, we never even finished talking about the first girl yet. There’s lots more evidence I haven’t talked to you about yet.
Robert PICKTON: Cause I didn’t do it, I didn’t. I didn’t. And I’ll tell you right now.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Who did?
Robert PICKTON: I don’t know. I honestly don’t know. I’ll tell you right now.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: She’s buried on your property?
Robert PICKTON: I don’t know nothing about it. I don’t, now honestly I don’t. I’m being honest with you.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: I want you to be honest.
Robert PICKTON: I am. I am. I can’t, I mean I haven’t seen her in my life really.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: You haven’t seen her anywhere in your life? You know Rob, when we go through our lives, alright, there are different kinds of people.
Robert PICKTON: What, what makes you think I did it, I mean ...
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Hear me out, I’m gonna explain things to you.
Robert PICKTON: I don’t even go in the trailer.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: I’m gonna explain things to you okay.
Robert PICKTON: Just because it’s on my property doesn’t mean very much does it?
Sgt. Bill FORDY: What?
Robert PICKTON: The trailer, the motor home. I never been in there for, quite a spell now.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: So you’ve never been in that motor home? You’re telling me that too.
Robert PICKTON: Not for quite a spell. Not for quite a spell. Not for quite a spell. I’ve only been in my trailer. I’m telling you right now.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: I’m lettin’ you tell me, I’m listening to you.
Robert PICKTON: And like I says the other girl there with the black case, I dropped her off at the bus depot at about nine o’clock in the morning. I’m not too sure exactly what date. She’s a French girl. She’s a French girl. What name is her? What, what’s her name?
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Which one, I mean there’s a lot of them. Which one?
Robert PICKTON: The one with the black case, that black bag, a black duffle bag or whatever.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: The one that told you that ah, she was staying in a van behind the Cobalt.
Robert PICKTON: Yeah. I know that one.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Yeah.
Robert PICKTON: And I took that one back to the bus depot and ah, it’s like I says, I mean ah, ...
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Is that the, is that the one who um, you never slept with.
Robert PICKTON: No, I slept with her.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Oh you did sleep her.
Robert PICKTON: Um, hum.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Did you have sex with her?
Robert PICKTON: No. No. She’ll tell you the same thing too. I dropped her off at the bus depot.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Where?
Robert PICKTON: At the Canadian Super Store. No, not down, not the ah, the Coquitlam Station.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Um, where did you work that day? Cause you remember dropping her off you must remember where you worked.
Robert PICKTON: I don’t remember. (KNOCKING)
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Come on in.
Sgt. Jim HUNTER: Bill can I see you for a sec?
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Absolutely.
Sgt. Jim HUNTER: Sorry to interrupt you.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Excuse me Rob. (LEAVES ROOM)
Robert PICKTON: I don’t believe this. No, no way, can’t believe this. (PAUSE 5 MIN 30 SEC)
Robert PICKTON: I can’t believe this. (PAUSE 25 SEC)
Sgt. Bill FORDY: How you doin? Did you finish the juice? (14:49:33)
Robert PICKTON: What’s that?
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Just hang on a sec. I think I have, I think I might owe you an apology here. Ah, Jim just asked me cause Jim’s a monitor and Jim’s my partner. He’s ah, he mentioned something to me and I said well maybe I’ve made a mistake ah, and I quite frankly I think I did have, just one sec, and ah, you said to me that you didn’t kill Roxanne.
Robert PICKTON: Why is she missing?
Sgt. Bill FORDY: No, no. Hear me out for a second, I, I asked you if you killed her and you said yeah, you said no.
Robert PICKTON: I didn’t.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Right, you said no, you didn’t kill her right.
Robert PICKTON: Yeah.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Okay. I might have misunderstood you, because when I thought that she was dead alright, and I thought from your impression that she was dead. So I thought you know...
Robert PICKTON: Why did you find her?
Sgt. Bill FORDY: No, just hear me out for a second alright. Sorry.
Robert PICKTON: I can’t believe this.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Just hang on. Just hang on, let me finish. Just hang on. Um, no just let me finish. Um, I thought if he’s lying to me about this girl, about Sereena say or, or Mona or Patricia or any of these other girls, then he’s lying to me about Roxanne too. It’s kinda like you know, that little boy who cried wolf.
Robert PICKTON: I am not lying.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Okay see I, I want to apologize because I, I got locked on that and I thought if he was lying about one he’s lying about them all but that’s not the case. That’s what people are probably gonna think about you that you know, if you lie about one then you’re lying about them all. You understand that like you know, the little boy that cried wolf but anyway, you want to see these, sure you can see ‘em. And that’s what people are gonna think about you ah, there’s today’s paper um, (PAUSE 15 SEC) hold on one sec, I just gotta check something this isn’t the right paper, you can read that okay.
Robert PICKTON: Can I see that one please.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Ah, it’s the wrong paper, I think, it’s the sport section.
Robert PICKTON: This is it, on the bottom, this is it.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Oh, your right, that’s what it is, it’s not the, I thought it was the lead story. Well it is there, it’s, it’s on the bottom, it is the front page. You can read those for a second. (LEAVES ROOM FOR 6 MIN 30 SEC) (PICKTON READS NEWSPAPER)
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Get the idea? Where’s the other one?
Robert PICKTON: Other what.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Oh they’re both here. Get the idea? Believe me now? That you’re done. (PAUSE 30 SEC) Now the irony of you holdin’ her picture, Mona WILSON’s picture is that ah, you killed her, you took her life. That crime scene examination is done now. Okay, you realize now you’re done, it’s in the paper as your charged, okay, you’re done. It’s over, you know, you’re not gonna get bail ah, you’re gonna be held in custody you know, you’re gonna go to trial, you’re gonna go to jail and ah, you know, you may or may not die there. I don’t know. Okay, you are done you’re asking yourself gee Bill that’s great that you got her DNA there, that’s great that she died at my place.
Robert PICKTON: I don’t know her, to be honest with you I don’t.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: You know what Bob.
Robert PICKTON: I know you don’t believe me.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: And neither is the jury and neither is the judge and neither is anybody that reads the papers because you know what your DNA is with hers. You’re done, you’re done. Just like we shook hands, your DNA was on me, my DNA is on you, took samples of your DNA’s together with hers. You’re done, it’s over, you’re done. (FORDY HOLDING MONA WILSON PICTURE TO PICKTON) Done, done, done, done like dinner, roast pork. And you can cry wolf to this right and people will think that you’ve done ‘em all, it’s your choice. You’re done and you have no idea Rob, you have no idea what those investigators are doin’ up there. They’re digging, they’re gonna go through every centimeter, every inch, of that property of yours. Okay, there’s two camps here even. There’s camps that say they’re buried alive or that they’re buried whole you know, that they’re killed and they’re buried like as a whole bo, whole person. Right just some people think that’s what you are because you’re a burier and there’s other people that think no, maybe they’re chopped up and ground and skinned like pigs and you know, we’ll find a tooth here and a bone here and you know, fingernail here and bla, bla, bla, bla, bla. Because of regardless of which way you did it, it’s gonna get recovered. They’re gonna go through every bone on the property, every piece of evidence on that property and there’ll be people saying oh, no, no that’s a pig bone, or that’s a, a bird bone or a cow bone or a horse bone or whatever cause you know what, they’re probably gonna find those things too. But amongst those things are gonna be the human stuff and the experts because they’re gettin’ paid a lot of money, and it’s a high profile case right. They’re gonna get their, they’re gonna get their evidence and your DNA is with hers. It’s all over.
Robert PICKTON: I didn’t do that.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: It’s all over.
Robert PICKTON: I don’t even know her really.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Bob it’s all over, alright. So for you to sit here and look me square in the eyes...
Robert PICKTON: ...square in the eyes.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: To do that and say you didn’t . . .
Robert PICKTON: I didn’t.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: . . . do it, tells me that you’re nothing but a dirty, rotten little liar.
Robert PICKTON: Well you think what you want to think but I...
Sgt. Bill FORDY: That’s what you’re telling me. Okay because I know the difference. Not only I know the difference every investigator in this building, every person that sitting on the jury, every judge that’s gonna be on the bench, every person that’s gonna be in the gallery of the court room, every person that’s gonna read a newspaper is gonna know that your DNA is with her DNA and she is dead. It’s not somebody else’s DNA there’s billions of people on the earth Bob it’s your DNA. One person. Robert William PICKTON. So you’re done on this. And you can continue to lie, you can continue to, to hide behind lies because that’s what people do when they’re scared and . . .
Robert PICKTON: (INDECIPHERABLE)
Sgt. Bill FORDY: . . . they don’t know what their future’s gonna hold. And that’s what you’re doing is you’re scared and you don’t know what’s gonna happen. You know, and you know what Bob, that’s normal.
Robert PICKTON: Who’s the other one?
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Ah, where would you like me to start? How about I start here? (POINTS TO PHOTO 1 OF PHOTO BOARD)
Robert PICKTON: There.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: How about I start with number one?
Robert PICKTON: Yeah, right.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Sereena ABOTSWAY. You’re also charged with her murder Bob.
Robert PICKTON: No way.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Yes sir. (PAUSE) (FORDY TAPPING HIS FEET) And you know what Bob they’re gonna keep, they’re gonna keep going at that crime scene. They’re not even, they’re not even one tenth of the way done there in the, in the house, the trailer, the motor homes, the barns, the slaughter houses, the property. They haven’t even started diggin’ they just got all the equipment there. Heaven knows what else they’re gonna find there.
Robert PICKTON: They’re not gonna find nothing there.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: You know what? You’re wrong. They’ve already got you linked to tons of them and this is in two weeks Bob, we’re two weeks into this investigation. This, this investigation it’s gonna go on for a year. You must be scared inside, I can’t imagine how you feel, but you’re done okay. What you do is, what you need to do is you need to realize that, you need to come to some sort of understanding and you need to start looking at yourself. Start thinking about okay, who am I prepared to take down with me. Am I prepared to take down Dave?
Robert PICKTON: Dave, what’s Dave got to do with it?
Sgt. Bill FORDY: He’s got the same last name you do.
Robert PICKTON: What’s that got to do...
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Well as long as you live a lie ... as long as you’re lying, he’s tied to that lie. DJ, what are the effects gonna be on him? The other people that are involved in your life. The people that trust you, they may even love you, these people that you’ve been lying to...
Robert PICKTON: I gotta go back to cell.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Yeah, you know what, Rob my duty is to come in here and talk to you um, that’s what I’m gonna do. That decision to talk or not to talk and, and to talk to me about these girls is yours. Okay. Um, I’m not gonna make you say anything you don’t want to say alright.
Robert PICKTON: I didn’t do it...
Sgt. Bill FORDY: But you did okay, and we both know that. And there’s lots and lots of ah, evidence and there’s lots of people that you know, you think of your friends you know, are talking to us about the way that you told them ah, you know, the good way to kill a girl, the good way to get rid of somebody.
Robert PICKTON: Really, who said that?
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Have you ever, let me ask you, have you ever said to anybody, a good way to kill a girl or that you could get rid of somebody, have you ever asked somebody to get rid of them. Because I’m gonna tell you the answer to all those questions is yes. That there are lots of witnesses now coming forward. That all these people have friends and eyes on the streets now, who all know you now and now that they realize. When, when they started this investigation they had a professional criminal profiler look at it and they said this guy will have a couple of things. One, he will be known to the girls, he will have a means of getting them out of the area and he will have a means of disposing of the bodies. You have all three of those traits. Okay.
Robert PICKTON: How’s that?
Sgt. Bill FORDY: You’re known to the girls, okay. Dinah’s been down there with you, you know, you’re known. They know you, all, all those street trade workers down there have been, interviewed now. There, there’s a thing called loyalty alright and when they’re not in trouble they’re anti-police, right. They hate the police, nobody cooperates with the police but when their, I won’t say loved ones, the people that are like them and they’re got a lot in common but all of a sudden, they realize there is one person on the outside there, that’s harming all the people on the inside you know. It’s like a rattlesnake going around ah, you know ah, a den full of little baby ah, cubs right. That rattlesnake can bite anybody it wants, and hurt anybody, but when those cubs get angry and they become bears, they can fight back, black bears. Alright. And now what’s happening is the streets now have eyes and everybody ‘s coming forward and saying I remember seeing him with this girl, I remember seeing with that girl. Your own friends, people that you worked with are coming forward, talking about you, alright. You think this is bad now, you want to continue living this lie? You want to continue living this lie, do you you want to know what people are gonna say about you. Because you’re living a lie right and that choice to live that lie or not is yours. I want to show you a tape I’ve got here, just a second. (PAUSE 15 SEC) (FORDY SETS UP AND RETRIEVES A VIDEO) this one jumps to my mind and you’re thinkin’ hum, this is not good, because now the people that are around me, the people that I thought were my friends or my colleagues, people that I’ve worked with, people that I’ve had a beer with, people that I’ve partied with are all of a sudden putting all the pieces of the puzzle together, and when you get a whole bunch of pieces to a puzzle then at the end you get a picture. And now a picture is starting to be developed of you. Okay, one component is you’re done because your DNA is with Mona WILSON’s DNA. Robert and Mona are tied together forever. Okay, I’m sorry, I might have said the name Roxanne earlier. I wasn’t talkin’ about Roxanne, I have no idea who Roxanne is, it’s a name you told me. I may have mistaken it. You and Mona are tied together through DNA. (POINTING AT PICTURE)
Robert PICKTON: I don’t know her.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Okay, no she’s not alive, you don’t know her anymore cause she’s dead, you killed her. Now your friends even, your trusted friends, are all coming forward and guess who’s camp they’re, they’re, they’re all gettin’ in, the police. Okay, not because they don’t like you, because they know what the right thing to do is. Remember this, (PLAYING TAPE )
Robert PICKTON: Who’s that?
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Dwayne CHUBB.
Robert PICKTON: Who?
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Don’t know him?
Robert PICKTON: Who is it?
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Dwayne. (PAUSE 15 SEC) this is a tape of Dwayne CHUBB. (PAUSE 30 SEC)
Robert PICKTON: Saw Willy. (PAUSE 20 SEC)
Sgt. Bill FORDY: He’s identified her off the photos.
Robert PICKTON: Who’s that?
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Dwayne.
Robert PICKTON: Who’s Dwayne? (PAUSE 20 SEC)
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Yeah.
Robert PICKTON: That’s ...Scott.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Hum.
Robert PICKTON: That’s Scott.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: We call him Dwayne, you might know him as Scott. (PAUSE 40 SEC)
Robert PICKTON: Yeah, Lynn THOMPSON.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Hum.
Robert PICKTON: What. (PAUSE 25 SEC) What? .... What? (PAUSE 35 SEC) is that Scott CHUBB?
Sgt. Bill FORDY: CHUBB yeah. Dwayne, I call him Dwayne CHUBB. Scott CHUBB, same guy. (PAUSE 1 MIN)
Robert PICKTON: Ten thousand bucks what...(PAUSE 55 SEC) that’s Scott CHUBB, right.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: CHUBB. I call him Dwayne, you might call him Scott. (PAUSE 20 SEC)
Robert PICKTON: Dirty rotten pigs.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Yeah, threatened them. (PAUSE 15 SEC)
Robert PICKTON: Night before last, I talked to him?
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Al TRAUTMAN did. (PAUSE 1 MIN 10 SEC)
Robert PICKTON: What? (PAUSE 40 SEC) (STOPS THE TAPE. REWINDS)
Robert PICKTON: Is there more, or is that it?
Sgt. Bill FORDY: There’s lots. But I guess you get the picture eh? (PUTS TAPE AWAY AND INTO BOX. STANDING UP) You know, so you can continue to try and spin the same story, but really I gotta tell you um, (SITS DOWN) Rob nobody’s gonna believe you. Now when, and you know how stories work right, when you tell a lie about one thing, when it’s painfully obvious, what you know the story about the little ah, boy that cried wolf. You know, soon, nobody believes you about anything. And that’s what’s gonna happen here Rob, and you can lie about one thing, you can lie about two things but when those one or two things get proven, people look at the big picture and say well he’s probably lying about everything. I mean you know CHUBB’s how’s that gonna look in court. What kind of guy is Robert PICKTON gonna be perceived as? And you and I both know that they’re gonna find things in the ground there. And you’re gonna try to tell some little story that well it wasn’t me it was someone else, how did that get there, I’ve been framed. And nobody’s gonna believe you because you’ve lied about other things. You lied about one or two things and...
Robert PICKTON: (OVER TALKING) (INDECIPHERABLE)
Sgt. Bill FORDY: ...now people are gonna think you lie about everything. That decision is to tell the truth or not is yours. Alright Rob. You’re the only person that has control over what kind of person you want to be because that evidence is gonna keep coming in. You’re not gonna be able to hide from it, you’re not gonna be able to run away from it. You know, you’re certainly not gettin’ out of jail. There’s two camps I told you, there’s two, the investigators are saying two things, one, you killed the girls and buried them whole. Then the other camp is saying that you probably you know, screwed them after they were dead, had some postmortem sex, chopped them up and they’re gonna find teeth, they’re gonna find fingernails, they’re gonna find stuff that was fed to the pigs. Even if they were fed to the pigs, the, the DNA would live through the pig shit. (PICKTON PICKS UP MONA WILSON PHOTO THEN PUTS DOWN) So you are gonna be done, and you know, convicted and um, sent away. There are a lot of people though that want to understand you, and you probably won’t even under, understand yourself. They say that when someone is like you, you know, cause you have, you have taken Mona’s life you know, and I, I call her Mona, because I don’t know what her street name was. (PICKS UP AND SHOWS PHOTO OF MONA WILSON TO PICKTON) So I’m gonna call her Mona okay. And I’m gonna call her Mona rather than ah, Mona WILSON because that sounds too formal, I’m gonna call her Mona. And you took her life, and your DNA is with her DNA. So when you say you don’t know her, you’ve never been with her and she’s never been to your house, she’s never been on your property, never been in your car, never been anywhere, then that’s a lie. That’s a bald faced lie. Right. And society can accept a lot of things, and they are intrigued by a lot of things. The one thing that they’re not accepting of and they’re not intrigued by, nobody ever cares to listen to is a bald faced little liar. Nobody likes a liar. You can break into a hundred houses, steal a bunch of cars, rape a bunch of women, do a bunch of murders and you can be still respected if you tell the truth. But if you do all those things and you tell a bunch of little lies then nobody’s gonna respect you. Nobody’s gonna care about you. They’re just gonna throw you away, lock you in jail forever and no ones gonna care, and no ones ever gonna talk about you. You’re just gonna be the little liar. You’re already convicted on one. You’re gonna be convicted on another and another, and another, and another and you’re a hard working guy Rob, inside you there is some good, there’s some, some good work ethics, you know, there’s some understanding of what it’s like to work for your money, to, to be an honest hard worker. Okay, and I don’t know what it was when you were growing up that caused you to want to find that balance to need that balance. And, I hope for a second that you’re not involved with anything else other than these girls. I really, truly do hope that from the bottom of my heart Rob. Because if you are and if I’m wrong about you, then I’m ashamed of myself. But I’m a good guy that I look in the mirror everyday and I respect myself. I might do some things that are wrong, that I’m ashamed of or I’m not proud of, but at least I acknowledge those things. Because I am a stand-up guy and it takes courage to do that and you have to be brave and you have to be strong. And it takes guts and sometimes it’s scary to climb a hill and get to the top and jump off. Sometimes that’s what you have to do Rob. (PAUSE) And if DJ or Tammy or someone was looking in this room right now, and they knew what I know now, the truth and they were looking at you, Rob, they would see one of two people. One who acknowledges what kind of person they are, who admits yeah, I made some mistakes, I’ve done some things that were wrong and wants to be understood. They’re gonna be willing to accept you when you say, when you say that Rob. They’re not gonna be willing to accept the other guy. DJ’s not and Tammy’s not nobody else that matters is. Rob and you know what the right thing to do is mister. The right thing to do is to be brave and to be strong for Tammy, to be strong for DJ, to be strong for the people that you love and the same people that love you. If your mother was in this room, she would want you to tell the truth too Rob. You need to tell the truth for your mother and for DJ and for Tammy because it’s the right thing to do Rob.
Robert PICKTON: Scott CHUBB.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: He’s gonna give evidence.
Robert PICKTON: He’s gonna give evidence.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Absolutely.
Robert PICKTON: After everything I helped him with.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Yeah. He’s just the first Rob, there’s lots of people coming (15:29) forward now. I told you this case is getting bigger and stronger everyday, everyday, everyday this case gets better. The foundations of this case are the DNA. (FORDY PONTS TOWARDS THE DOOR) The witnesses are coming in, friends of the girls are coming in. Rob, I’m not sittin’ here saying that I think your some crazy, some wacko cause I have listened to you here today and I know that you have some good in you. And you’re smart, you’re not a dummy. If you think for one second that I’m sitting here thinking you’re just a plain dumb pig farmer, that is not the case. My friend know that, know that I know that you are not stupid and you know that too. And you may be looking for balance but you are not stupid my friend. You know what true love is. ... yeah, these girls were at the end of the road, they’re down in East Van, they’re wired on drugs, they’re selling their bodies, they’re certainly not like your mother. But at one time they had mothers too you know, that held them, cuddled with them, loved them, cared for them and had dreams for their children. Nobody ever dreamt in a million years, nobody ever, ever wants their daughter to end up on skid row, banging down into their arms, HIV positive, dying anyway. And I don’t know, deep down inside Rob I wonder, you know, there’s a part of me that thinks because you kept saying you’re helping people, you’re helping people, you’re helping people, you were just trying to help these girls. There’s a part of me that thinks maybe that’s what it is cause you kept saying I help people, I help people, I want to help people, I won’t stop helping people. (GOES OVER AND TAPS ON HIS HEART) And inside you is a heart with some goodness (TAPS ON PICKTON’S HEART AGAIN) that sees a glass half full of water, not a glass that’s half empty. And I know that these girls they are not the kind of girls that you’d never want marry, you know, they’re not like Connie. But you still took those girls away Rob. If Tammy and DJ were here right now ... they were with us right now Rob. They’d want you to tell the truth. They’d want you to be brave and be strong, do the right thing. I know this is hard for you right now, your guts are probably churning, you don’ t know what to do, it’s normal Rob. I know you’re asking oh, God what do I (15:34) do, what do I do, I feel caged in, I don’t know what to do. You have this piano on your back.
Robert PICKTON: (PICKTON RUBS HIS EYES) I don’t know Monica.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Hum.
Robert PICKTON: I don’t know her. I still don’t know her.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: You knew her as Monica.
Robert PICKTON: I don’t know her.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: You know what, hold her picture Rob. (FORDY PASSES PICTURE TO PICKTON) Just keep it there with you, you know why it’s important you know, for you to hold that? Because you guys are tied together forever. And you know what you can’t look me in the eyes and tell me you didn’t kill her because you did.
Robert PICKTON: I didn’t. (PICKTON PUT PICTURE ON DESK)
Sgt. Bill FORDY: You did kill her and you know you can’t change that, you know, and you know what, there’s a part of me that thinks maybe you know, now that you’re in jail and you’re arrested and you know, you realize that the whole world is gonna think you’re, you’re wrong. You probably, if you could go back and change things you probably would. You probably would wouldn’t you. You would wouldn’t you. You would wouldn’t you Rob? You’d change things wouldn’t you?
Robert PICKTON: I don’t know her.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Yeah, you may not know her name, okay. But you did, you know, you took her life there in the trail, in the Dodge and yeah, you know I think it’s probably normal for you right now to try to separate yourself from them. To run away from that and I can’t imagine the feeling. (PICKTON MOVES PICTURE AWAY) I can’t imagine. You know and, and I wonder about her, I wonder if she screamed, I wonder if she was stoned, I wonder if she knew it was coming. You know, or was it just out of the blue. (FORDY HOLDS PICTURE) You know, because there are people that are gonna say that you were like the worst kind of killer. You’re a coward, you sneak up behind them and hit ‘em while they weren’t lookin’ or hit ‘em while they’re down or asleep and you know, that’s what some people are gonna say about you. You know, not only is he some sick, weirdo that probably had sex with them after they are dead probably didn’t even have the guts to kill them from the front, that he was a coward, he jumped on them from behind you know, maybe used a gun or used a knife or used handcuffs or used whatever he had to do. I don’t know what you did you know, because all I know is one thing and that’s, that you killed this girl. You took her from her, from the world here. You can’t change that. You can’t change what you did. You also can’t argue with what you did. (PUTS MONA WILSON’S PHOTO DOWN) Rob, cause you can’t explain off the DNA, your DNA together. You’re done. Okay, you’re gonna go to jail for twenty-five years. There’s nothing we can do about that, nothing you can do about that right now, can’t change that.
Robert PICKTON: Twenty-five years anyways right.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Well twenty-five years is ah, conviction for murder right. I mean I’m not a judge but that’s what Peter Van OSSELAER got. The only thing that matters now Rob, quite frankly is what do you want to do? Do you want to clear it up cause that, I and you know what, honestly I don’t think you killed all fifty of those girls. But I do know you killed her. (POINTING) And I do know you killed Sereena. I’m more interested in talking about this one right now. We’ll talk about the other ones later. That’s all I want from you quite frankly. And when you tell me I’m gonna shake your hand and say thank you very much for telling me. And if you tell me it’s gonna be because you want to and you know it’s the right thing to do. Right? And after you tell me I’m not gonna hate you. I’m gonna respect you for, for being honest with me because I’ve, I’ve talked to lots of murderers, I don’t hate murderers. Murders, murders happen for lots of different reasons and I want to understand you quite frankly. I want to understand you, I want to find out what it is that you needed to do to have your balance. Cause we all need balance. And I want to talk about how things happened. I’m not gonna, I’m not gonna dislike you Rob. I’m not gonna yell at you. I’m not gonna let anybody else yell at you or be mean to you quite frankly. Alright, what I want is I want you to tell me the truth. I want you to say Bill this is what happened and this is why. Rob that’s what I want you to do. Rob. Things happen for lots of different reasons Rob. Some people have a quench for doing one thing some people have a quench for doing another. Like I said to you I do not think you killed all fifty of these women. But I know you killed her and that’s where I want to start. I want to start with Mona WILSON, I want you to tell me what happened. You may not know her name but you do know that you took her, okay, you do know that and I know that. And all I want is I want you to tell me the truth and I want you to tell me how it happened.
Robert PICKTON: And who’s this other girl?
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Sereena. but I don’t want to talk about her yet. I want to talk about Mona first. I want you to tell me about her. I want you to tell me what you did with her, where she’s gone or if she’s buried out, if she’s buried whole, if she’s cut into parts whatever, I, I’m not gonna be surprised by what you tell me. I, I’ve had guys tell me about cutting a girl up and putting her in a Canada Post bag and burying them. Nothing you say to me is gonna surprise me. I’ve had guys tell me that they raped and murdered sixteen year old girls, took them out, buried them in the woods. If they, people tell me about all different types of killing. So when you tell me about this, it’s not gonna surprise me. But I do want the truth and I want you to tell me the truth because it’s the right thing for you to do, and you know that Rob. Very matter of fact, very business like, you do know that, you are a logical thinker. And you are not stupid, and I do not think you killed all fifty of these women. But I want you to tell me about this one. Start with this one.
Robert PICKTON: I don’t know about this one.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Which one do you want to talk about first then?
Robert PICKTON: I don’t know about that.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Pardon. (PICKTON TOUCHES MONA WILSON’S PHOTO)
Robert PICKTON: I don’t know about her.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Okay, tell me about the ones you know. Rob, I want you to tell me. (PAUSE) Rob, I want you to tell me the truth. You are a big boy, you are an adult. You are mature, you are smart, you are not stupid, you are not crazy. I want to understand you and you want to understand yourself as well. I’m a student of human behaviour and I speak to you from the heart. I want you to teach me about yourself, I want you to teach me about how did Robert PICKTON do the things he did. I want you to because you know it’s the right thing to do and you want to help me understand you. We all want to be understood Rob. We all have a destiny, we all have a calling in life. You can be dead tomorrow. I want you to tell me Robert, (FORDY TOUCHES PICKTON’S LEG) I know you’re with me, I know you’re hearing my words and I know that you know I’m making sense. And that this is, it’s logical and it makes sense to you. Cause you are a logical thinker.
Robert PICKTON: I want to go to the cell.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: No . . . You’re not going to your cell okay. Rob, I want you to know that you can’t run from this . . .
Robert PICKTON: I’m not running.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: . . . you can’t hide from this. When you and I walk through a room (15:45) we leave our DNA in that room, we leave our scent in that room, we leave our perspiration, our sweat, our cells. You cannot lea, you cannot change the places you’ve been or where you’ve left your DNA. You cannot, you cannot change that at all Rob. These girls quite frankly, they’re, they’re in the scum of the world okay, these girls are on the East end of Vancouver, they’re jamming needles in their arms, they’re HIV, they’re Hep B, they’re Hep A, they’re Hep C, they’re walking around they’re killing machines. Everyone of these girls has probably killed more guys than you have killed people, because they’ve transmitted their disease. (PICKTON RUBS EYES) Rob none of these girls wanted to end up where they ended up, nobody ever wants to end up down there. These girls were all gonna die, everyone of these girls was gonna die. Everything happens for a reason Rob, they were all down there infected with their diseases, selling their bodies for a reason. You came into the picture Rob and you, you took some of these girls, okay. I’m not sitting here for one second in judgment of you like you’re some child killer. Know that. If you were the kind of guy out killing kids, trust me, this would not be a pretty picture. And if I thought for one second you were that kind of guy, do you think I would want to understand you or want you to understand yourself? Not a chance pal, and if it turns out that you’re responsible for any of those missing kids from the East side then you know what, God bless me for sitting here with you and being that wrong. That wrong in judgment.
Robert PICKTON: Are there a bunch of kids missing too?
Sgt. Bill FORDY: There’s kids missing too. You’re absolutely right there are and I hope you’re not, you’re not a pedophile out there hurting those kids. Rob but I do know that you have taken some of these girls. Okay, and you and I both know that and we both know there’s evidence to show that. And there’s gonna be more evidence to show that. It’s never gonna go away this case is only gonna get better, it’s not gonna get worse. Alright, everyday this case gets stronger and stronger and stronger. This is a train coming down the tracks, the train’s loaded with evidence and in every box there’s DNA, there’s body parts, are witnesses coming forward, are your friends coming forward. People that you worked with, people that you drank with, people that you gave money to, people that took money from you, quite frankly Rob, people that probably used you. That used you then and rode on your coat tails and they’re gonna do it now. They’re gonna say I knew Robert PICKTON and you’re gonna try to say I didn’t kill any of those girls and the newspapers is gonna say that you killed fifty or a hundred, who knows where the number’s gonna end up. It started out as twenty-seven two months ago, now it’s up to fifty. I don’t know where it’s gonna be six months from now. And they’re gonna ride your coat tails Rob, and they’re gonna, they’re gonna rob you of any dignity or decency that you have. They’re gonna have cancer pills and they’re gonna be just stickin’ them in you and they’re gonna be reaping the benefits while you rot in jail. (FORDY TAPS ON PICKTON’S LEG) Because right now Rob, you’re sticking to a lie, you’re clinging to a lie and you’re hoping that lie is gonna get you out of trouble and you know what the irony of it is? The longer you lie the worse things are gonna be for you. That’s the irony (FORDY TAPS ON PICKTON’S KNEE) of this situation. The longer you lie the worse it’s gonna be for you and the worse it’s gonna be for the people around you. (FORDY TAPS ON PICKTON’S KNEE) The worse it’s gonna be for Tammy and the worse it’s gonna be for DJ, the only one who might benefit out of all this is your sister Linda. (FORDY TAPS ON PICKTON’S KNEE) So you can cling to those lies as long as you like, but know that those lies are helping everybody and hurting one person and it’s you. (FORDY TAPS ON PICKTON’S KNEE) And that lie is like a cancer and it’s, it’s in you and it’s spreading and it’s gonna get worse and worse and worse. Picture it Rob you are a glass of water and that lie is water drops dripping into that glass. Drip, drip, drip, drip, drip. Rob eventually that glass overflows. And your glass is almost full and it’s filling up and now everybody else is coming to pour water in there. Nobody can make you do anything you don’t want to do Rob. But you must realize that you are done on this, you can’t hide from it any longer. This is gonna spread through you, this lie is gonna get worse. You know, there’s gonna be people watching you, there’s gonna be people glad that you’re lying about this. If all the people in Port Coquitlam are coming forward now, you know, people that you knew, giving statements, I saw him do this, I saw him do that, well I was surprised when I saw that because I thought he was gay or I thought he was this, or this, or that or bla, bla, bla. Everybody’s got a Robert PICKTON story now. Cause (FORDY TAPS ON PICKTON’S KNEE) there’s different kinds of killers. Did you know that? (FORDY TAPS ON PICKTON’S KNEE) There’s different kinds of killers Rob, there’s respected killers and there’s despised killers. Child molesters are despised. Clifford OLSON is despised because he raped and murdered innocent little children. He followed them around in his van, he picked them up, he drugged them, he got them drunk, he put spikes through their heads, through their hands, and he brutally raped little children. That’s what Clifford OLSON did to kids. He wrecked the families, destroyed them families, moms and dads lied awake at night and cried. You think you missed your mom when she died? Imagine if you had a child eight or nine years old taken away from you, ripped out of your arms. Imagine how you would feel, that hatred you would have, for somebody like Clifford OLSON. Everybody hates Clifford OLSON, he’s hated in jail, he is the worst kind of killer. (FORDY TAPS ON PICKTON’S KNEE) And you need to ask yourself Rob, what kind of killer do you want be remembered as? Because you are a killer, you have taken lives... there’s no question about that Rob, and you can’t change it, it’s not gonna go away, and you know what, I know it probably hurts you too, and you want to be understood. You haven’t killed any kids have you?
Robert PICKTON: I haven’t killed anybody really. But...
Sgt. Bill FORDY: You haven’t killed any kids? Tell me you haven’t killed any kids.
Robert PICKTON: No.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Have you killed any kids? Good thank you for telling me that. (FORDY HOLDS OUT HAND TO SHAKE) Thank you for telling me that I hope you’re telling me the truth here.
Robert PICKTON: I am.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: I told you I was... (15:54)
Robert PICKTON: But I never killed anybody neither.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Thank you for telling me you never killed any kids. (PICKTON SHAKES HIS HAND) Thanks. You know it’s important Rob that you start to understand yourself. That you look inside and say what kind of person is Robert PICKTON? What kind of person does Robert PICKTON want to be? And when you look back and you think about when your mom was on her death bed and your mother was dying of cancer, (PICKTON YAWNS) and she was thinking about her son Robert, and her goals and her expectations and what she wanted for her son, for her little Robert, (FORDY TAKES A DRINK) what she wanted for you. Because I’m sure (FORDY MOVES AWAY) as a parent myself, when we look at our children, we can accept that they all do things that may, may be right or may be wrong. Rob but we can’t accept when they deny responsibility for those things. And worse Rob, when they try to lie their way out of them. And I’ve lost my mother to cancer, I know the pain that somebody feels when you lose somebody that you love. And before my mother died I told her that I loved her and I was there and I said mom, I love you, you’ve been a good mom. (PICKTON HAS HAND OVER EYES) She was a good mom to me ... and I think about her all the time and I hope that when I’m doing the things that I do, you know, I know she’s up there watching me, I hope that she’s proud of me, that she respects me for the person I’ve become.
Robert PICKTON: So I’m being charged for murder two, two murders right.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Yup. For now. How’s that make you feel Rob? Rob how’s that make you feel?
Robert PICKTON: Make me feel sick.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: You know that feeling is not gonna go away. You know that feeling is gonna get worse. Do you know how I knew the answer to that before you even told me? Rob because I’ve interviewed lots of killers and I’ve sat in room with lots and lots of people. (FORDY LEANS IN) I don’t care who you are...
Robert PICKTON: And I’m not gonna get out on bail or nothing right, you say.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: No. No, you’re not. (PAUSE) You’re not, absolutely not, you’re not gonna get bail. And you know when I wake up in the mornings I think about my mom, when I’m in the shower I sometimes think about her. You know, I think about how lucky I was to have somebody that loved me and I hope that everything that I do everyday, makes her smile, because I know she’s up there watching me, looking down on me, and watching what I do. Rob and your mom is no different, your mom is watching down on us right now. Rob, know that she’s in this room with us. She’s watching over you, she’s watching over me, and if you want to make your mom proud, if you want to meet her again in heaven, then you need to be responsible, you need to do what your mother would want you to do, and you know what that is. You love your mother. Don’t let your mother down. Do not betray your mother’s honour. You’re gonna get charged with these Rob, you’re already charged, you’re gonna be convicted. This investigation is gonna continue, this is two weeks worth of evidence, you’re already charged with two, this is all (16:00) over okay. This is all over, this is not gonna go away.
Robert PICKTON: And who’s the other one?
Sgt. Bill FORDY: (POINTS TO FIRST PHOTO) Sereena. So what I want you to do Rob...
Robert PICKTON: Where’s her file?
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Her picture?
Robert PICKTON: Her file.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Oh, it’s here, I haven’t even got to it yet. I told you Rob, I don’t want to talk about Sereena until I’m done talking about Mona. Until you’ve told me what you did.
Robert PICKTON: I didn’t do anything.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Because you did it, you took her, you’re charged with it, you’re gonna go to court, you’re gonna be convicted, and you’re gonna be sentenced. And the same thing’s gonna happen (POINTS AT A PHOTO) with Sereena and the same thing’s gonna happen with Heather. The same thing’s probably gonna happen with Christine, (TAPS ON FIFTH PHOTO) and you know, that list is gonna grow and grow and grow, and grow, and grow. It’s never gonna go away that’s for sure. As you look here, you must see pictures that you recognize. Because I know that you recognize them. (FORDY TAPS ON A PHOTO) And you remember them. They might look a little different because this might have been just before they went down the skids, some of them looked a lot worse than that probably as they got in worse into the drugs and the prostitution but eventually Rob, you’re gonna be tied to all the ones that you’re responsible for. Alright, you can’t run away from that, and you can’t hide from it, and you can continue to live your lie as long as you like but as long as you live that lie you’re hurting people like Tammy, you’re hurting DJ, and Dave, I don’t know, I don’t know whether you’re hurting him or helping him. It’s up to you to decide I guess. But you need to realize this is over, this whole book is written except for one thing Rob, and that’s your side of the story. Your need to be understood, your need to explain to me why you did what you did, if you know why you did what you did, because you may not know. And when you explain it to me maybe I can help you understand but I know that you need to tell me. You’re dying to tell (16:03) me, you know how I know that, because I’ve talked to lots of people that have been in the situation that you’re in right now. And I, I watch them when they tell me things and then how good they feel after. A feeling of relief that everyone of them feels, (FORDY MOVES CLOSER) and know they’ve done something good out of whatever it is they’ve done, good, bad or indifferent. That they need to be understood. I said to you I don’t think you killed all these girls, I hope you haven’t Rob. But I know you’ve killed at least one, two, and others probably and as the evidence comes in, it’s gonna be reflected and indicated, and you’re not, you’re never, ever gonna be able to explain it all off, never, ever, ever, ever can you explain it off.
Robert PICKTON: So where do I go from here, I go to court, then I go to...
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Pre-trial and you’re held there and then you go to court and go to court, and go to court, and go to court and then you go to jail and there you go and you’ll probably die there. Unless you live, you’re a long liver. And the other thing Rob, that you gotta be I guess concerned about is and I hope you always wore condoms, but when you’re with girls like this, there’s always the risk of ah, infectious diseases too. (PICKTON HAS HAND OVER EYES) (PAUSE 15 SEC) you have to realize this is good, this is over that this train of pain, outside it’s raining out, it’s going down the tracks and every time it goes it turns another wheel, it gets more evidence and it gets heavier it’s gonna run right over (FORDY TAPS PICKTON’S LEG) you Rob. This is all over. It’s all, all over. And I know you’re good with dates, I know you’re smart, I know you’re not some whacko, some crazy guy, I know that. But you have made mistakes, there’s evidence all over the place, you can’t hide from it. Rob, I want you to tell me the truth, I want you to tell me about what’s gone on here. I want to understand you, you’re need for your balance you’re searching for whatever it is you’re searching for.
Robert PICKTON: I gotta sleep on it for a couple before we continue.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: No. I want to understand you know what this pain inside your stomach it’s not gonna go away. It’s not gonna get worse for Christ’s sake I interviewed a guy in that room across the hall who hung himself at Surrey Pre-trial because he couldn’t handle it, cause he killed a young girl. (POINTING FINGER AT HIM) Cause it eats and eats and eats and (TAPPING ON PICKTON’S KNEE EACH TIME) worse it’s gonna get worse and worse and worse. It is never gonna get better than it is right now, it’s gonna get worse, it’s gonna grow inside you like a cancer cell, like it killed your mother for Christ’s sake. You know, have you ever, ever tired to figure out why some people when they’re old they die, and two months later their spouse dies. They die of some disease that comes on, it’s cause it’s in, it’s inside you and it grows from within. Right now you got a disease and it’s gonna eat you up, you need (TAPS ON LEG) to tell me, you want to, (TAPS ON LEG) you want (TAPS ON LEG) to talk about this, you’re wondering yourself Rob. You can’t run from this, you can’t hide, this is gonna keep going and going and going and going. (PICKTON HAS HAND OVER EYES) I want to understand you, I want to understand what happened. (PICKTON REMOVES HAND FROM OVER EYES) Rob. I’m not gonna judge you, I’m not going to hate you. I’m going to try to understand you. (FORDY POINTS AT PHOTO) Cause if this is a situation where you’re just trying to help these girls speed up a, a death that’s inevitable, then explain that to me. You know you’re not taking these, these girls and sending them down to Coquitlam Center and puttin’ ‘em in a shopping cart in the middle of the street for kids to find. You know, you have the decency not to shock the community to take these girls from the skids. (PICKTON BEGINS TO LOOK AT PHOTOS) People aren’t gonna hate you. If you lie, you run and you hide though, you’re gonna hate yourself Rob.
Robert PICKTON: So I’m charged with mur, murder of her too right.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Yeah. You’re absolutely right you are. This isn’t going away, Rob. (TAPPING ON LEG) This is never, ever, ever gonna go away. (PAUSE 35 SEC) Jim HUNTER: Excuse me Bill, I just, I need to see you outside, I just want Dana to sit with Willy for a bit, I’ll talk to you about some new evidence that just came in.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Okay. I’ll be right back Rob. Jim HUNTER: I’m just gonna leave you with Dana for a minute.
Cst. Dana LILLIES: Hi Robert, how you doing? (BRINGS IN TOILET PAPER ROLL)
Robert PICKTON: Not too bad.
Cst. Dana LILLIES: Not too bad.
Robert PICKTON: Not too bad.
Cst. Dana LILLIES: I guess ah, you’re in a bit of different position right now than you were last time we were talking. It’s a lot to digest isn’t it?
Robert PICKTON: I guess I’m locked up forever.
Cst. Dana LILLIES: Yeah, well like I was telling you last week, we both knew that this was, was gonna happen.
Robert PICKTON: Did you find those bones I was telling you about?
Cst. Dana LILLIES: Yeah, yeah, we did.
Robert PICKTON: And they’re...
Cst. Dana LILLIES: So you’re map was perfect.
Robert PICKTON: And they’re Ostrich bones?
Cst. Dana LILLIES: Yes and you knew they would be.
Robert PICKTON: I told you that. But...
Cst. Dana LILLIES: But of course there’s, there’s all this other evidence that’s come to light. And like Bill was telling you, there’s more coming out everyday, every, every hour. How are you feeling?
Robert PICKTON: I don’t know, I don’t feel my toes because they are not on the ground.
Cst. Dana LILLIES: You don’t feel your toes?
Robert PICKTON: Yeah, because it’s not on the ground.
Cst. Dana LILLIES: I’ll bet. It is a lot to be taken in, were you able to sleep last night? Have you eaten anything since you’ve been in, in custody here? (PICKTON SHAKES HEAD “NO”) I brought you a sandwich.
Robert PICKTON: I don’t like it.
Cst. Dana LILLIES: You don’t like it. Well what do you want to eat, cause we, we should really get you something to eat.
Robert PICKTON: I didn’t eat anything yet.
Cst. Dana LILLIES: What, what would you like to eat Robert?
Robert PICKTON: I don’t know. At this stage, do I deserve anything to eat?
Cst. Dana LILLIES: What’s that?
Robert PICKTON: Do I deserve anything to eat?
Cst. Dana LILLIES: Of course you do. (LILLIES PUTS TOILET PAPER DOWN) Robert, you’re a human being, you’re a human being who’s made some mistakes, and that’s why we’re here to talk to you. To understand, we’re not here to judge you, I told you that last week, that I wasn’t going to judge you. I’m ready to listen to whatever you have to say.
Robert PICKTON: I’m dead before I start.
Cst. Dana LILLIES: You’re not dead.
Robert PICKTON: Just as well.
Cst. Dana LILLIES: Like I said, you’re a human being, and we’re treating you like a human being. You deserve that. (PAUSE)
Robert PICKTON: I should be on death row.
Cst. Dana LILLIES: Well I don’t, I don’t happen to believe that. You know, sitting and talking with you last week, I can see...
Robert PICKTON: I’m finished, I’m finished.
Cst. Dana LILLIES: Well you know, we’ve come to a point.
Robert PICKTON: I’m dead.
Cst. Dana LILLIES: You know what Robert, we’ve come to a point where, where you have to deal with what’s happened. And you have to accept what’s happened and, and the best way to, to deal with it is openly and honestly. But this is not the end of the world.
Robert PICKTON: What is?
Cst. Dana LILLIES: You’re gonna go on living...
Robert PICKTON: For what?
Cst. Dana LILLIES: Because you have some really good qualities in you and what we’re, over, over the last um, couple of weeks that I’ve been involved in this investigation, I’ve been speaking with some people that know you.
Robert PICKTON: I’m over with, I’m finished.
Cst. Dana LILLIES: And, and they see the same thing that I saw when I was talking to you last week. You have really good qualities in you, you’re, you are a giving person, you do care about people and I think that a lot of people have taken advantage of that.
Robert PICKTON: I’m finished.
Cst. Dana LILLIES: You are going to go to jail, that, that much is true. And life as you knew it, is over now, you’re not going to be going back to the farm and that’s gonna be a difficult thing for you I’m sure, cause that, that’s your whole life right? ... It’s a huge change, it’s a lot to, it’s a lot to take in, but you have to be strong...
Robert PICKTON: For what?
Cst. Dana LILLIES: For you.
Robert PICKTON: Dying?
Cst. Dana LILLIES: No you have to be strong for you and for the people who care about you. Dave is your fiercest protector. He’s beside himself right now. ... I think what’s important now, is to give the families (LILLIES POINTS TO PICTURE BOARD) some closure. Families just want answers and you can give them those answers. It’s also your choice to just you know, keep your mouth shut about everything that happened, and it’s all going to ah, come to light over the next several months, as the investigation continues. But you can put an end to the suffering right now by giving them the closure that they, they so desperately need. And there’s people out there who are thinking right now that you’re some kind of a monster. They don’t see the side that I saw, when we sat and visited for a couple of hours there. You are a human being that has good qualities (PICKTON SNORTS) why do, why do you do that?
Robert PICKTON: I’m dead.
Cst. Dana LILLIES: But you’re not. You’re not dead Robert but you are at a cross roads right now, you’re, you’re in a place where you can make the decision of how you’re gonna proceed from here.
Robert PICKTON: I’m dead.
Cst. Dana LILLIES: Robert you’re not dead. You’re living and breathing, you’re sitting right here in front of me and you’re gonna go on living and breathing. But like you know, like Bill was telling you, you can get this, this poison out of you or you can continue to let it fester. I don’t think you should do that. You’re shaking your head.
Robert PICKTON: I’m dead. I’m a walking corpse.
Cst. Dana LILLIES: Why do you say that?
Robert PICKTON: Well when my name is mud. I’m locked up here forever. You tell me why I don’t think that.
Cst. Dana LILLIES: Well you know people are gonna have their own perception of what happened. But the only way that they’re going to have any real um, idea of what happened is if you, you explain things as best as you can. You know, I know that it’s a difficult thing that (PAUSE). (LILLIES TOUCHES PICKTON’S LEG) Do you want to tell me about what happened, see if it helps.
Robert PICKTON: What’s it gonna help, I mean I’m dead already.
Cst. Dana LILLIES: It might help you feel better Robert.
Robert PICKTON: Yeah, what’s it gonna do? I’m cram, nailed to the cross and... (16:21) (PAUSE 25 SEC)
Cst. Dana LILLIES: (LILLIES TOUCHES PICKTON’S LEG) So I wasn’t here just a minute ago um, Robert does this, this was Mona right? (LILLIES KNOCKS ON PICTURE BOARD)
Robert PICKTON: That’s what they say.
Cst. Dana LILLIES: Um, hum. So I, I really want to understand what happened with Mona. I do.
Robert PICKTON: I didn’t do anything really.
Cst. Dana LILLIES: Okay, well we, we all know that’s not the case Robert.
Robert PICKTON: That’s what they say now, so I mean I’m nailed to the cross anyways.
Cst. Dana LILLIES: Okay. Like, like Bill was telling you um, her DNA is all over that, that trailer...
Robert PICKTON: I know, I heard that yeah.
Cst. Dana LILLIES: Alright, so you understand all that, you understand that your DNA is also with Mona (OVER TALKING)
Robert PICKTON: But, but I always been in there, I’ve been in there off and on but I don’t know anything about this here.
Cst. Dana LILLIES: Okay. You know what? Um, something that I don’t think Bill mentioned to you was, was where your DNA and her DNA was