By Serial Killer Magazine
This is part three of the complete transcript of the eleven-hour interrogation of Robert Pickton by the RCMP on 23 February 2002, the day after his arrest. Pages 127 to 189 of 252.
Staff Sergeant Don Adam, the officer in charge of Project Evenhanded, takes over the interview in this part. The approach changes with him.
What this is. A police interrogation reproduced complete and unabridged. Nothing added, removed or corrected. The transcript’s own spelling errors, false starts and repetitions are preserved exactly as the RCMP transcriber produced them, along with the speaker labels, the action notes, the redaction markers and the page numbering, so any passage can be cited to its page.
Who holds it. A Royal Canadian Mounted Police record, Project Evenhanded, file 2001E-1388. A Canadian record, so the United States public-domain rule for government works does not apply. Crown copyright generally runs fifty years, which would place this 2002 transcript within term, and it was also used as an exhibit in R. v. Pickton.
What has not been verified. The recording was not listened to. The transcript came from a third-party host whose own right to post it has not been established. Long dashes in the original typography have been rendered as hyphens; no word has been altered.
found. He didn’t mention that did he?
Robert PICKTON: I don’t know. I don’t know.
Cst. Dana LILLIES: Okay. I don’t think he did mention it and your DNA was found on the dildo that you had at the ah, connected to the end of the gun there and that’s where her DNA was also found on the tip of that dildo.
Robert PICKTON: But that doesn’t mean I did it.
Cst. Dana LILLIES: Yes it does Robert. It does.
Robert PICKTON: Just because.
Cst. Dana LILLIES: And you know what, you’re just hurting yourself and you’re hurting your family and you’re hurting the families of these women by continuing to deny that.
Robert PICKTON: I never did it.
Cst. Dana LILLIES: (SIGHS) You and I both know...
Robert PICKTON: Look, (OVER TALKING)...
Cst. Dana LILLIES: ...you know what Robert, ...
Robert PICKTON: There’s a lot of people know I had the gun.
Cst. Dana LILLIES: Robert, you and I both know that’s not true (PICKTON PUTS (16:24) HAND OVER EYES) and knowing all the things that I know about this investigation, knowing about the kind of um, sex that you had with these women, that doesn’t change the way that I see you, I still see the good in you. I still see the Robert who I sat and chatted with for, for a couple of hours. I still see the Robert who, who went out into the barn and saw that his, his favorite calf was slaughtered as a child. You have real feelings and that’s very clear to me. That’s not something that a person can fake and as a person with real feelings I know that you’re gonna do the right thing ... and you know, I’d like to share something else with you, I fully believe that people become the way that they are for a reason. Because of things that have happened to them in their lives and that’s what I want to understand. We talked quite a lot the other day about, about your, your history and about growing up on the farm. And I think that anyone in your same set of circumstances would have wound up doing the same things as you. And maybe if you had been raised under the circumstances that I was raised we’d be in, in different seats right now. So I’m not here to judge you, I’m here to understand you.
Robert PICKTON: I’m never gonna walk again.
Cst. Dana LILLIES: You’re never gonna walk again? Why do you say that?
Robert PICKTON: Well I got two murder charges already against me.
Cst. Dana LILLIES: Um, hum.
Robert PICKTON: And maybe more pending. So the one on top the other eh?
Cst. Dana LILLIES: Um, hum. And you know what else, that’s another way for you to, to look at this okay. You know as well as I do, that they’re gonna continue to find more evidence, they’re gonna continue to connect you to more of these murders and you’re in a situation where you can sit and wait everyday for the next um, bomb to drop or you can sit here and, and, and accept the fact that this is something that’s happened, something that’s in the past, you want to address it openly, honestly and move forward in your life, because you are still alive Robert. You may not, if I was in your situation I wouldn’t want to be sitting there waiting everyday to see if there’s new evidence or if there’s which one I’m going to be connected with next. I’d want to just get it all out in the open, address it and deal with it and carry on from there. Because all it’s gonna do is, is drag this out for yourself, for the families and for all the investigators who are working on this and for your family. For Linda and for Dave and for Dave’s kids. The longer this is drawn out, the more pain it causes everyone involved. And you told me something last week, you told me that you want to help people. So that when it comes time that you need help, they’re there to help you. Well here’s your chance to help people. Here’s your chance to help these families have some closure, to help your own family have some closure and to help you have closure. Because I think that you have from, some demons that you’re struggling with and by just sitting there silently, you’re allowing those demons to, to take control. You are a human being Robert, you deserve to be treated fairly and with respect and you deserve to live the rest of your life. (16:30) Don’t let the demons take over. (PAUSE 50 SEC) Remember when we were talking last week, I could see that, that this really is having an impact on you, I mean this is a life altering thing that you’re going through. And the media is painting things the way that they want to paint it, that’s what the media does. But you have a choice about, about having a voice in that. (PICKTON SHAKES HEAD “NO”) So I’ll tell you what we have is ah, like a big jigsaw puzzle. So we have a lot of pieces coming in but there’s certain pieces that only you can fill in. And it’s really important to have those pieces so that um, everybody will have a better understanding so that the families will have some closure. So that your family will have some closure. So that you don’t have to sit here waiting and wondering what’s gonna happen in the next hour, I mean like, like my boss was just telling you there’s this new evidence that’s come in now. Are you hearing me? (PICKTON - SLIGHT SHAKE “NO”) You’re shaking your head. What are you thinking Robert? (PAUSE 40 SEC) what are you thinking?
Robert PICKTON: I don’t know.
Cst. Dana LILLIES: Maybe I should ask you what you’re feeling, cause I imagine you’re feeling all sorts of different things right now.
Robert PICKTON: I can’t get over Scott CHUBB on that...on the machine there.
Cst. Dana LILLIES: What, I’m sorry, I didn’t hear you.
Robert PICKTON: I can’t get over Scott CHUBB that, up on the machine there.
Cst. Dana LILLIES: Weren’t you surprised that Scott CHUBB came forward to us? Was that a nod? Yeah. And you know, you helped a lot a people along the way, you’ve given a lot of people money, you’ve been there for other people and you know, (PICKTON PUTS HAND OVER FACE) what I think really sucks is a lot of these people were using you to support their drug habits. You’re there trying to help these people, and they burn you in the end. But I’ll tell you there was I don’t know if you’ve been watching any of the news but there’s a tip line that we have put on the news so people with information are calling into that number. We’re getting all kinds of information, people who know you, people who knew you years ago, people who had certain conversations with you and all of that stuff is, is being followed up on as we speak. So that’s why I say there’s still more that’s gonna be, that we’re gonna be faced with on a day to day basis. So you can cut all that stuff off right now, and just say okay, here’s what happened, here’s what I did and all those people will have nothing else, won’t be able to ride your coat tails because like you were telling me, this is big. It’s big news, front page news you saw it yourself. Now are you gonna let these people who screwed you over benefit from that? (PAUSE 20 SEC)
Robert PICKTON: I can’t get over Scott CHUBB.
Cst. Dana LILLIES: Tell me about Scott. You guys good friends?
Robert PICKTON: I can’t get over Scott CHUBB.
Cst. Dana LILLIES: Tell me about him Robert, I’m interested. (PAUSE 20 SEC)
Robert PICKTON: I can’t get over it.
Cst. Dana LILLIES: I’m not someone who was speaking with him but you know, that was, that was...
Robert PICKTON: Who was speaking with him?
Cst. Dana LILLIES: I’m not sure. But um, is Scott someone that you worked with?
Robert PICKTON: That was Scott CHUBB right?
Cst. Dana LILLIES: I, I’m just going on what you’re saying here, cause I don’t know the man.
Robert PICKTON: I think he put the video back in there again.
Cst. Dana LILLIES: He put it in the other room or in the box?
Robert PICKTON: In the box.
Cst. Dana LILLIES: Okay, well you, you saw it, so you know who it is obviously.
Robert PICKTON: I think it’s Scott CHUBB.
Cst. Dana LILLIES: So where do you know Scott CHUBB from? (PAUSE 20 SEC)
Robert PICKTON: Scott CHUBB. Fuck. (PICKTON PUTS HAND OVER FACE) I can’t believe this. Way out now.
Cst. Dana LILLIES: It hurts doesn’t it?
Robert PICKTON: Scott CHUBB of all guys. Of all guys, him. What is he trying to do?
Cst. Dana LILLIES: Well I can’t answer that Robert but I can tell you that we’re getting lots and lots of phone calls, so there’s gonna be other people like Scott CHUBB.
Robert PICKTON: Well Scott CHUBB. I could put him away for a long time. (16:40)
Cst. Dana LILLIES: Is that right? So you, you have some dirt on Scott do you?
Robert PICKTON: But that’s here nor there.
Cst. Dana LILLIES: How long did you know him for?
Robert PICKTON: Years.
Cst. Dana LILLIES: Did he work on the farm?
Robert PICKTON: No he worked down at the construction site. Scott, no, not supposed to say anything.
Cst. Dana LILLIES: Hum? Say anything about what?
Robert PICKTON: Without my lawyer present.
Cst. Dana LILLIES: Um, hum. Well I think Bill also explained that’s, that’s, that’s your choice to make. (PAUSE 25 SEC) so how is this gonna all play out Robert?
Robert PICKTON: I don’t know. I don’t know.
Cst. Dana LILLIES: Well you know what? You’re the one who’s gonna make that decision. It’s gonna play out, you know, minute by minute, hour by hour, week by week, month by month, year by year or we can tidy it up right now. (PAUSE 40 SEC) You know Robert, I’m, I’m, I really would like to, to understand ... will you tell me about the, the ah, gun with the dildo on it?
Robert PICKTON: Well I put that on there as far as, in case I have to use it for, cause I’m shooting boars. Well I shouldn’t talk about this, it’ll be in court anyways right. It’s gotta go to court.
Cst. Dana LILLIES: For shooting boars.
Robert PICKTON: Yeah, pigs.
Cst. Dana LILLIES: With a dildo on the end of it?
Robert PICKTON: Yeah, I put it on there for a silencer. But I never used it.
Cst. Dana LILLIES: That sounds a little unusual.
Robert PICKTON: Yeah, (INDECIPHERABLE) the houses are moving in.
Cst. Dana LILLIES: So tell me how did Mona’s DNA get on the tip of that dildo?
Robert PICKTON: I don’t know.
Cst. Dana LILLIES: Yes you do. (PAUSE 30 SEC) You know Robert I’d feel a lot better (16:45) if you’d had something to eat.
Robert PICKTON: I don’t have to eat at all.
Cst. Dana LILLIES: You have to eat sometime. We can get you whatever you want?
Robert PICKTON: I don’t feel like eating.
Cst. Dana LILLIES: Does your stomach feel upset? Why don’t you feel like eating? (PAUSE 35 SEC) Can I ask you a question?
Robert PICKTON: What’s that?
Cst. Dana LILLIES: When you kill a woman, are you understanding why you’re doing that or is it something that just happens?
Robert PICKTON: I don’t do that.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Yes you do, Robert. (LILLIES TOUCHES PICKTON’S LEG) We both know that. (PAUSE 2O SEC) You know I know that’s there’s people in your life...
Robert PICKTON: So what’s gonna happen to me now?
Cst. Dana LILLIES: Well you’re just gonna be in jail, you’re gonna be going to court on Monday but you’re gonna be in jail for a long time.
Robert PICKTON: For the rest of my life right?
Cst. Dana LILLIES: Yeah.
Robert PICKTON: I might as well face it right now, right?
Cst. Dana LILLIES: Um, hum.
Robert PICKTON: So I’m going to rot in jail.
Cst. Dana LILLIES: You still have a life to live, it’s gonna be, it’s gonna be an altered life.
Robert PICKTON: Hum.
Cst. Dana LILLIES: There’s no question about that I can’t, I can’t uh lie to you about that.
Robert PICKTON: So I’d going the pen, the penitentiary?
Cst. Dana LILLIES: I’m not sure where you’re gonna go, but you will be going to jail and you will continue to live, and you will adapt. It’s gonna be a big adjustment for you but you’ll just have to take one day at a time right. That’s all anybody can do. (PAUSE 40 SEC) which way is this gonna go Robert? Are we gonna draw this out for years and make it a pains taking thing, or are we gonna address it all, take your lumps and go on with your life?
Robert PICKTON: Well I want to die.
Cst. Dana LILLIES: You want to die, well I don’t want you to die. Your mother doesn’t want you to die. Dave doesn’t want you to die. But they all want closure. They don’t want to see this thing dragged out for years, they want closure so that, not only can, so you that you can get on with your life, but so that they can get on with their lives.
Robert PICKTON: What life.
Cst. Dana LILLIES: Like I said you’re life is going to be different, there’s no question about that, but it’s gonna go on and it’s not the end of the world. It might feel like it, but it’s not. (PAUSE 40 SEC) You know what um, when I first started doing this job, nine years ago, I saw things very black and white. I thought you know, that there was good people and that’s there’s bad people and that there was no middle ground. What I’ve come to realize over the years is there’s really no such thing as black and white, it’s vast grey area. People do things for different reasons, sometimes they’re reasons that, that person understands and sometimes they’re reasons that the person can’t comprehend. That doesn’t make you a bad person. A lot of the people that um, I’ve been talking to and that the other investigators have been talking to say that you know, that you’re a good person, that you like to help people. You know I was talking to your sister Linda, she said that you were a very giving, loving person, like your dad. She compared you to her, to your dad, she said that you guys were a lot alike. Linda ah, I guess ah, adored her dad, your dad. And I think that you get those, those good traits from your parents. And somewhere for some reason, something happened, maybe in your past or um, something compels you to do these things. But that doesn’t completely make the, the good parts of Robert disappear, they’re still there. And that, that all those good parts, the good Robert needs to go on living, needs to, to put an end to all of this, drawn out investigation. (PAUSE 25 SEC) And from, from the things that I’ve seen I think that you’re a person with a lot of love in you. I look at, I saw the picture of, of your horse that (16:55) you had mounted and it’s clear that you, you loved that animal. You’re not an evil person, you’re a good person who’s done some thing that, that we have to deal with. And we know that’s the truth isn’t it Robert? (PAUSE 25 SEC) And you know what I see? I see a person who is a hard worker, whose spent his life devoted to that farm, who helps people no matter how down and out, helps them, is generous and all these people that you have been there for haven’t been there for you, and I think that’s a real shame. Now I know the things that, that you have done, I know that you killed Mona and I know that, that you killed many others but that, that still doesn’t detract from the good qualities that you have.
Robert PICKTON: (PICKTON PICKS UP AND PUTS DOWN MONA WILSON’S PHOTO) I don’t know her.
Cst. Dana LILLIES: Okay, and that might be true, that you know her but you did kill her. (PICKTON SHAKING HEAD “NO”) Yes you did. (PAUSE 35 SEC) Tell me something Robert, I want to understand what it is you’re feeling when you kill one of these women. Are you feeling angry, are you feeling scared? (PAUSE 25 SEC) You know it’s not an easy thing to talk about. I mean you may be worried about how you’re gonna be viewed and maybe you’re worried about implicating yourself further, but I’ll tell you that’s not something that’s gonna make any difference because no matter what you say (17:00) you are still going to go to jail. So the reason that I’m here talking to you and the reason that Bill is taking the time to talk to you is to try to understand and to try to help you understand yourself better and what, what ah, what sort of triggers this, to happen. Was it something that’s like a, a switch that just get’s clicked on and, and you just react, or is it something that you planned for weeks in advance? (PAUSE 30 SEC) Or is it maybe something that, that’s not planned weeks in advance, something that just you decide when you wake up in the morning that this is something you gonna do today.
Robert PICKTON: See I don’t know her.
Cst. Dana LILLIES: That’s not what I asked is it? You probably don’t know her. (LILLIES PICKS UP HER PHOTO AND SHOWS PICKTON) Her name is Mona WILSON, she was a prostitute, and you killed her. Now whether or not you knew her isn’t really the issue. The reality of the situation is that the evidence doesn’t lie, the reality of the situation is her blood is all over that camper and it’s mixed with your DNA. So whether or not you knew her, where she lived, who her parents were, whether or not she had children, that’s not what I’m asking. (PASSES PHOTO TO PICKTON WHO PUTS IT DOWN ON THE TABLE)
Robert PICKTON: I don’t know her.
Cst. Dana LILLIES: And you never will, because she’s dead. What’s going on in your head right now? (PAUSE 25 SEC)
Robert PICKTON: I just can’t get over Scott.
Cst. Dana LILLIES: Um, hum. Well like I was telling you Robert there’s more people coming forward every day and you can bet your bottom dollar that with this being on the front pa ah, front page news we’re gonna get a lot more calls. So I want you to sit here and think for a minute okay. I want you to sit here and think about every conversation that you’ve ever had with anyone about how to get rid of bodies, about people that you’ve killed, about violent sex that you’ve had. I want you to think long and hard about that because all those people are on the phone. Police officers are on their way to go and talk to them. They’re riding those coat tails, and you can cut those coat tails off right now by saying, by taking responsibility or you can draw this out and let all the Scott CHUBB’s of the world come into the lime light. (PAUSE 45 SEC) What are you think ah, Dave’s gonna have to say about all this?
Robert PICKTON: Don’t know.
Cst. Dana LILLIES: Well like I was telling you, not only is this investigation having a tremendous impact on your life but it’s got a ripple effect and it effects the lives of everybody around you. And the way it works is, every time more evidence comes it’s another ripple and it, and it washes outward and it affects everybody that cares about you and that you care about. And ever time there’s more evidence there’s another ripple and another ripple. What I’m saying to you is let’s make one splash and deal with it, so that it doesn’t continue to be drawn out. (PAUSE 20 SEC) Like I said Robert the evidence does not lie and there’s a mountain of it and there’s more building everyday. (PAUSE 50 SEC) (LILLIES MOVES AWAY) There’s something I’d like for you to take a look at. I don’t know if you’ve seen any of this ah, media footage but I can guarantee you there’s gonna be a lot more of it today, a lot more than what we already have. (PLAYING VIDEO) this was a couple of weeks ago. (PLAYING MEDIA VIDEO).
Robert PICKTON: (INDECIPHERABLE) Oh good God.
Cst. Dana LILLIES: Why do you say that? (TURNS OFF VIDEO) Hum?
Robert PICKTON: It’s getting more and more.
Cst. Dana LILLIES: And you know something Robert, these people they want answers. They want closure and you can give that to them. We can give it to them eventually but you can give it to them today. Yes you can, yes you can. You need to show these people that you’re not a cowardly monster. I know that you’re not a cowardly monster, they don’t know that. And these people lie in bed at night wondering if tomorrow they’re gonna hear word, wonder if tomorrow there’s gonna be a piece of evidence that’s going to link their daughter, their sister, their girlfriend to your farm. You can give those answers. You saw the number that we had up there with the tip line, we have more calls coming in than we have investigators to deal with them. And with each day we’re putting more and more pieces of the puzzle together, but it’s, it’s drawing it out unnecessarily...: Robert. Give these people the answers that they need, give them the closure, let them go on with their lives. (PAUSE 35 SEC)
Robert PICKTON: I’d like to go back to my room.
Cst. Dana LILLIES: Well, you know what, that’s not gonna happen right now. Cause there’s more things that we want to talk to you about. Are you absorbing this are you understanding the situation? (PAUSE 25 SEC) You know better than anybody what we’re going to find at that farm and we’re going to find it, eventually. It might not be today, it might not be tomorrow, it might not even be six months from now. But they’re not going to leave until they find everything and until they have answers for those families. ... Robert...
Robert PICKTON: I can’t help you.
Cst. Dana LILLIES: Yes you can. Yes you can. (PICKTON PUTS HAND OVER EYES) Why do you say no? Robert why do you say no? Is it because you’re afraid or is it because you just don’t care?
Sgt. Bill FORDY: All right, see Don or something I’ll be back in a second. (LILLIES LEAVES- TAKES TOILET PAPER) Thanks. How are you Rob? How’s things?
Robert PICKTON: Okay.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Good, um, a couple of things. I want to ah, share with you. You’re okay, you hungry or anything? You hungry or anything?
Robert PICKTON: I don’t feel like eating, I mean I don’t feel like even eating, I feel like dying.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: You feel like dying. Okay. Um,...
Robert PICKTON: I don’t want to eat or anything.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: You’re not gonna eat. Okay, you don’t have to, that ah, that’s up to you, I just wanted to offer, that’s all. (FORDY TAKES A DRINK) Um, last time I was in talking to you, Jim came to get me and told me that ah, another person had just called in who was ah, a friend of yours. First thing I want to do is I’m gonna play that for you okay. Before I do that though, I just want to play this first.
Robert PICKTON: Who’s the person that phoned, who’s this?
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Just a second, you’re ahead of me, you’re ahead of me. I made a mistake I think I called CHUBB’s Dwayne.
Robert PICKTON: Yeah.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Actually, I think he goes by Scott. You were right, so I apologize for that, let me clarify that. I just want to make sure that I understood some, one thing that he said then I’m gonna play this other tape for you. Okay? (PLAYING TAPE) (CHUBB)
Robert PICKTON: Dinah.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Dinah TAYLOR. (PICKTON OPENS BOTTLE AND TAKES A DRINK) (PLAYING TAPE 2 MIN 30 SEC)
Robert PICKTON: Right. (PLAYING TAPE - APPROX 1 MIN)
Robert PICKTON: He, hurt who? (TAPE PLAYING - 15 SEC)
Robert PICKTON: Lynn, Lynn. Ten thousand dollars. (TAPE PLAYING - 2 MIN 1O SEC) (PICKTON YAWNING)
Robert PICKTON: (INDECIPHERABLE). . . called the house? Can I talk to him? (TAPE PLAYING 20 SEC) well no.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Telephone. (TAPE PLAYING - 40 SEC)
Robert PICKTON: Run that by me again... (17:30)
Sgt. Bill FORDY: You get the idea right. Do you have ah, do you have friend by the name of ah, Andy BELL? Do you remember Andy? His name is Andrew BELLWOOD but also known as Andy BELL, lived with you for about three months, worked on your ah, farm. And ah, yeah, (INDECIPHERABLE) years. Um, he’s been interviewed today.
Robert PICKTON: Who’s he?
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Andy BELL, you’ll recognize the voice. Got the tape right there. I want you to ah, just a second. I want you to listen to this tape okay, Rob.
Robert PICKTON: Andy BELL.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Yeah, worked on your farm. He’s gonna be a witness. (PLAYING AUDIO TAPE)
Sgt. Bill FORDY: He’s in Alberta now.
Robert PICKTON: Who? What’s his name?
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Andrew BELL. (TAPE PLAYING - 35 SEC)
Robert PICKTON: Well this guy out to lunch. (TAPE PLAYING - 1 MIN 20 SEC)
Robert PICKTON: He what? (TAPE PLAYING - 1 MIN 5 SEC)
Robert PICKTON: That (INDECIPHERABLE) guy is out to lunch. (TAPE PLAYING - 1 MIN)
Robert PICKTON: Oh. Bull! (TAPE PLAYING - 30 SEC)
Robert PICKTON: Yeah, right. (TAPE PLAYING - 20 SEC, TAPE TURNED OFF)
Robert PICKTON: (LAUGHING) Funny stories in there aren’t they?
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Well I mean I told you Rob, a lot of people are calling in now. Um, you know, there’s a, a lot of people that have an interest in this now. Ah, some of your friends even have called in. Now speaking with Dave, as you know, Dave’s been interviewed and ah, ah, a number of times.
Robert PICKTON: Today?
Sgt. Bill FORDY: I, I think he’s being interviewed again today, there’s a number of investigators here. But speaking with Dave, one of things that Dave has said ah, I, I want to clarify it with you is that um, the inhaler that was found, the one with the shiny case, that you found that somewhere alright. Where did you find that?
Robert PICKTON: If I know what it looked like ah, because I’m going back awhile.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Okay, well you must remember because you told Dave it was in a shiny case. Right, that’s the same one I’m talking about.
Robert PICKTON: It was over a year ago.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Okay, well where was it. Where did you find it?
Robert PICKTON: (PAUSE 16 SEC) That’s a long time ago.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Yeah, obviously though it’s an important, it’s an important um, ...
Robert PICKTON: It’s a long time ago.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Yeah, you found it in, in a glove box of a car, what colour was the car? Maybe that will help refresh your memory.
Robert PICKTON: Dark grey.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: It was a grey car okay. What was the make of the car? It was in a shiny case, is that why you even picked it up?
Robert PICKTON: No it was on, it was on the floor, the floorboard of the passenger side.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Floor board of the passenger side. Was it in the glove box? Okay ah, a grey car, what kind of car was it obviously you’ve very good with cars. (FORDY TURNS OFF TV)
Robert PICKTON: But there’s so many.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Yeah, but this is obviously, it was nice that’s why you picked it up right? Is that what, was it by itself, was it with something else?
Robert PICKTON: I can’t remember.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Okay, so what you do remember though is it was on the floorboard, it was on the floor on the passenger side of the grey car and it was in a shiny case and that was why you remembered it. Was, was there anything else beside it, was there another, try to think back, was there something else that was with that um, ...
Robert PICKTON: There was something else with it.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: ...shiny case.
Robert PICKTON: There was something else with it too. I can’t remember (INDECIPHERABLE)
Sgt. Bill FORDY: It was in that grey car hey, okay. You know we’ve got, it’s interesting that you say that because you told a number of people about that who ah, actually I’m, I’m thinking you might have made a mistake actually because a lot of people are coming forward now. I told you some people are, are coming in and obviously ah, ...
Robert PICKTON: That guy’s off the deep end of this because...
Sgt. Bill FORDY: No, I mean you know what, I’m not the judge alright.
Robert PICKTON: I know, I know.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: I’m just the guy that ah, is here talking to you. Some people obviously are coming to your defense. Like Linda PLASMAN, do you know Linda.
Robert PICKTON: Lynn.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: That name doesn’t mean anything to me but...
Robert PICKTON: Nancy PLASMAN.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Okay, I’ve got it as Linda maybe Nancy’s her middle name.
Robert PICKTON: Nancy.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Pardon me?
Robert PICKTON: Nancy.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Okay.
Robert PICKTON: She was staying with my, staying at my place.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Okay um, is it possible you told her it was in a grey car then and she’s mistaken.
Robert PICKTON: I don’t know.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Ah, okay, cause she’s come forward I guess and suggested that you said, you told her that it was in a red car.
Robert PICKTON: Ah no, I think ah, everybody was referring to the red car full of clothes.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Okay, that’s not where the, you found this in a grey car. Okay, now when you picked up that inhaler do you remember anything specific about it?
Robert PICKTON: That’s how it looks pretty expensive.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: (LAUGHING) yeah, I guess so eh. Of course, that’s why you picked it up.
Robert PICKTON: (INDECIPHERABLE) It’s expensive.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Now what did you do with it?
Robert PICKTON: I phoned up another party and they said it was worth around four hundred bucks.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Okay, but what did you did with that inhaler, did you take it inside?
Robert PICKTON: Yeah.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: And do you remember the name on it?
Robert PICKTON: Not, not off hand.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: The inhaler eh? Okay. Um, you obviously know, (PICKTON: (INDECIPHERABLE) pardon me?
Robert PICKTON: Not off hand, there’s a name on it.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Yeah. Could you just, think, try to think back and see if you remember it.
Robert PICKTON: I remember dates but I can’t remember.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: You remember, what date was that, that you found it? What dates were on the inhaler?
Robert PICKTON: I can’t remember that. I can’t remember that, I mean myself, I mean it’s, but then, that doesn’t even fizz on me really.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Okay.
Robert PICKTON: Cause I was, I mean, when I phoned over there he says it’s outdated or not and I says I don’t think it is outdated, I think there’s one little cartridge in there or something.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Do you remember who you phoned, did you phone a pharmacist. I guess.
Robert PICKTON: No I phoned ah, um, Lee and Lee was telling me.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Lee?
Robert PICKTON: I know her as Lee, I know her name as Lee.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Is she a pharmacist or is she a doctor or?
Robert PICKTON: No. No.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: (INDECIPHERABLE)
Robert PICKTON: ...she, she, she’s up there pretty high.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: But she works in the, in the business.
Robert PICKTON: No, she, she knows all about drugs and everything else.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Oh, okay. She’s a drug dealer.
Robert PICKTON: No, yes, no. Yes and no.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Yes and no.
Robert PICKTON: I mean she, she works with ah, she, she’s doctor’s a degree and everything else.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Ah, okay, PHD.
Robert PICKTON: So, so she knows what’s, what’s what.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Alright. Okay. So you told ah, your one friend then, that it was in a red car.
Robert PICKTON: No.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Is that correct or no?
Robert PICKTON: No.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: That’s not correct. Okay.
Robert PICKTON: The red car came in, when the last shipment came in.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Okay. So you never told anybody then, that it was in a red car? Okay. You sure about that? Okay. So you’re recollection is that it was found in a grey car and it was by itself, there’s nothing else there.
Robert PICKTON: No, there was something else there.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Okay, what was it?
Robert PICKTON: I don’t know.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Okay, I want you, I want you to think about it.
Robert PICKTON: I don’t know.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Okay.
Robert PICKTON: That’s going back.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Yeah, but I mean obviously that’s an expensive inhaler...
Robert PICKTON: It’s going back almost a year and a half ago.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Yeah, cause you told Dave about it, right.
Robert PICKTON: Oh yes.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: You told Dave you found it.
Robert PICKTON: Oh yeah.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Yeah, what did you tell Dave, do you remember that? Unless Dave’s lying.
Robert PICKTON: I never did, I never even told Dave.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Yeah, well unless, are you telling me Dave’s lying to us then?
Robert PICKTON: No, I mean I don’t think Dave really knows.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Okay. Dave’s telling us that you told him.
Robert PICKTON: I told him I found, found it in the car, I didn’t tell him what kind of car. Yeah, that’s true. And he presumed it’s a red car because it’s full of clothes all this. We always talking about a red car.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: So Dave’s not lying to us then.
Robert PICKTON: No.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Okay, well. . .
Robert PICKTON: (INDECIPHERABLE)
Sgt. Bill FORDY: . . . what else was with it?
Robert PICKTON: I think a purse was scattered around.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: A purse.
Robert PICKTON: I think it was, I’m not sure. I’m not sure. I’m not sure. I’m not sure. I’m going back a long time here, we just only playing with junk I mean.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Yeah.
Robert PICKTON: So I don’t know.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Okay. So you told Dave then that it was in a car and you think there might have been a purse there.
Robert PICKTON: There might have been, yeah.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: What colour was the purse?
Robert PICKTON: I don’t know, black probably.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Black eh, what did you do with it?
Robert PICKTON: I think it stayed in the car.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Stayed in the car.
Robert PICKTON: I think, I’m not sure.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Alright. So you took the inhaler out and never took the purse out?
Robert PICKTON: I don’t know, I can’t remember. There’s so much stuff I went through.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Yeah.
Robert PICKTON: And I just, like I said I just moved vehicles around all the time.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Yeah, but I mean, the fact that the purse is there obviously, I see a purse in an empty car, I look to see if there’s money in it, so you obviously...
Robert PICKTON: No, no there’s no money in it, because it had all been cleaned out.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Ah, okay. So the inhaler is there, . . .
Robert PICKTON: (INDECIPHERABLE)
Sgt. Bill FORDY: . . . what was in the wallet? What was in the purse, the black purse?
Robert PICKTON: Probably a condoms or whatever.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Condoms, okay. How many condoms?
Robert PICKTON: I don’t know, I don’t know. You’re asking me something what I don’t know anything about. We’re I mean, I go through so much stuff in there.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Okay, so you, you, you took the purse out...
Robert PICKTON: No, no I didn’t say I took the purse out.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Oh, you left it in there, you took the inhaler out...
Robert PICKTON: I don’t, I can’t remember.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Well obviously you took the inhaler out cause it was worth four hundred dollars.
Robert PICKTON: Yeah, yeah looks ah, looks expensive so I says I’m gonna open that and that’s it.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: So you phoned up Lee, what’s Lee’s last name? The Dr, the dentist, the PHD.
Robert PICKTON: I can’t, can’t help you with that.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Okay, what’s her phone number, I’m sorry?
Robert PICKTON: I can’t help you with that neither.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Okay, you can’t remember it.
Robert PICKTON: Ah, she moved to a different ah, different place.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Okay where, where did she work?
Robert PICKTON: She doesn’t.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: I’m sorry what was this? Okay, you told me she had her PHD.
Robert PICKTON: No, she, she’s up there pretty high.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Ah okay, and what company was she working for?
Robert PICKTON: She’s doesn’t. She doesn’t work.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Ah, okay but she’s got ah, like a Master Degree or PHD or something? In what, do you remember?
Robert PICKTON: Of any, any I mean anything, doctor stuff yes.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Okay. How do you spell her first name?
Robert PICKTON: Lee, L-E-E.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: And her, her last name? Just think about it for a second.
Robert PICKTON: I’m been trying to think about it all day.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Ah, okay cause she can maybe help your story out a little bit. Um, and what’s ah, her phone number? Where did she li, where did she work?
Robert PICKTON: She didn’t.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Okay, where did she live?
Robert PICKTON: Off of Harris Road.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Off of Harris Road okay, what colour was the building?
Robert PICKTON: You’re asking me the impossible.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Well I mean she’s obviously a very good friend of yours, somebody that you call about something important like this so.
Robert PICKTON: Yeah, but that’s before ah, a everybody know her address everything else, so she wants, she wants to keep herselfs quiet.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Yeah, this is, this is the most important day of your life. Let’s be honest.
Robert PICKTON: I don’t know what her last name is.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Okay. So you don’t know Lee’s last name.
Robert PICKTON: I don’t know if she’s using a married name or her maiden name neither.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Let’s, let’s be honest you don’t want to tell me Lee’s last name.
Robert PICKTON: No I don’t, know...
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Okay. (OVER TALKING)
Robert PICKTON: He, he got ah, she got a son named Rocky.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Rocky. Make movies about guy’s like that. Ah, okay. So you found the inhaler in the glove box...
Robert PICKTON: No, on the floor.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: On the floor. Cause Dave told us you found it in the glove box.
Robert PICKTON: Okay, okay.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: So...
Robert PICKTON: Close enough but I mean I think it was on the floor but I’m not ...
Sgt. Bill FORDY: I mean he’s, he’s given the exact words but I mean.
Robert PICKTON: Okay, we’ll, let’s say in the glove box then.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: No I mean I, it’s important that I, we talk about what you remember.
Robert PICKTON: I think, I think it was on the floor.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: On the floor okay. And you think there was a purse there, a black purse ah, do you remember what was in the purse?
Robert PICKTON: I think some needles, some ah, I don’t know.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Condoms, you said you there was condoms.
Robert PICKTON: Probably condoms.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Needles God that’s scary. Okay.
Robert PICKTON: I don’t know. We’re going back a long time here.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Yeah, we are. We’re going back right to ah, when Sereena was killed. Sereena ABOTSWAY. Obviously you know that, that was Sereena’s inhaler.
Robert PICKTON: Sereena, who’s that?
Sgt. Bill FORDY: (FORDY MOVES OVER, TAPS ON FIRST PHOTO AND MOVES BACK) Okay, and that’s obviously the inhaler that we recovered. Ah, it’s dated July 19th, alright. And that as you know, that was ah, leaked out to the media so, (POINTS TO FIRST PICTURE) you took the inhaler in and you, you didn’t take anything else in.
Robert PICKTON: I can’t remember.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Okay you didn’t, you know, you might have taken her purse in then or not?
Robert PICKTON: I don’t know. I might have.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Her purse and the condoms. Okay.
Robert PICKTON: I might have ah, because of any, it might have been everything was in her purse, I don’t know.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Okay.
Robert PICKTON: I’m going back awhile here.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Yeah, well it’s only, it’s not that long. You’re doin’, you’re doin’ a good job, thanks, I appreciate that. Um, so Sereena then disappeared on July 19th, that’s the day she picked up her inhaler right, and ah,...
Robert PICKTON: It looked fairly new when I, when I...
Sgt. Bill FORDY: It was brand new. It was brand new, it was the same day she got it.
Robert PICKTON: Oh really.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Which is probably why it makes sense, you thought it was so, it was so expensive right. It makes sense to me, I can understand how you would think that. Okay. The, the thing that’s interesting about Sereena’s inhaler ah, being in your house, and ah, the fact that she’s never been there, right.
Robert PICKTON: She hasn’t been there.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Yeah.
Robert PICKTON: I don’t know her really.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Yeah, that’s great um, but I have to tell you her DNA’s all over your house. It’s all over clothing, I’ll tell you something else, you’re DNA’s on top of it so um, can’t argue with it, you’re done on that. We talked earlier about ah, Mona’s DNA and how the fact you’re DNA is mixed with her DNA. The same thing with Sereena, and in addition to her inhaler as being there and ah, her ID being there. Her DNA is all over the place. Her blood is all over the place, your DNA is with her DNA. Okay.
Robert PICKTON: That’s impossible.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: No it’s not. It’s, it’s there. Okay and um, one of the things that’s very, very interesting about that, is you know, your DNA’s with Mona, it’s intermixed, you DNA’s with Sereena it’s intermixed, her inhaler’s there and you know what, the reason you made up that story about the inhaler was because it was leaked out of our office. The thing the, the officer didn’t know, that in, that ah, leaked that evidence about the inhaler, was that your blood was everywhere too. And...
Robert PICKTON: Yeah, but that, that was when I got knifed. V(6)
Sgt. Bill FORDY: And that never got out. Now you’re, you’re talkin’ about ---- -----
Robert PICKTON: Yeah.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Yeah, that’s a different incident.
Robert PICKTON: But it’s still my blood.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Yeah. But your, your, your blood is intermixed also with Sereena’s the girl in number one there. So not only ah, you’re finished on that one, you’re finished on the other one as well. So in actual fact you know, how you’re charged with two murders, okay. One of them is Mona WILSON, the other one is Sereena, they’re both really ah, solid, strong cases. I’m gonna tell you something else though. Ah, in addition to the DNA of those two girls, okay. And DNA is transferred in lots of ways okay, Rob. It’s transferred in saliva, it’s transferred in hair, it’s transferred in spit, it ah, blood, ah, bodily fluids. In addition to Sereena’s DNA, in addition to Mona’s DNA, there’s eight other female’s DNA in your house. You know, that are still being profiled, that’s in addition to all the other witnesses that are coming in. There’s DNA for, there’s hair there that hasn’t been analyzed as well, that looks like it’s been ripped out of girls scalp where there, you know, there’s been arguments and, and fights. They’re going through not only the trailer ah, that you live in but also the camper as well. The camper where Mona was ah, recovered, they’re going through that as well to see what other hair samples are there. Cause there’s lots of hair there with the bulbs on it. What happens is when you pull the bulb out of someone’s head, you pull the hair out of someone’s scalp, there’s a bulb on the end and that contains DNA. So in addition to Mona’s DNA...
Robert PICKTON: How would...
Sgt. Bill FORDY: ...mixed with your DNA, and Sereena’s DNA mixed with your DNA there’s also DNA of eight other women. And there’s, there’s hair of who knows how many other women, that’s still being analyzed. Um, tore right out of the scalp, all the garbage is being analyzed, everything you know. This, it’s interesting that this guy calls in and says that ah, you said after you killed some of the girls you fed them to the pigs.
Robert PICKTON: That’s a crock of shit.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: You know what, that’s interesting if it, if in fact it’s true cause if it’s not true then it’s no big deal. If you’ve just buried them all under the townhouses or ...
Robert PICKTON: Oh yeah, right.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: And you know, in the property there. They’re still gonna get found because we’re digging there. But if you did feed them to the pigs their DNA comes out the pig, the pig shit and you probably know there’s a case just over in England where they did that you know, where they fed a guy to a pig and this, the pig shit out the DNA. You know, so even if you did do that, you know, those pig troughs and things like that, there’s, it leaks into the ground, the soil can be analyzed all that stuff so it ah, doesn’t matter, it doesn’t affect anything. It doesn’t affect ah, the degradation of the DNA. The fact I guess, that they’re willing to spend millions and millions of dollars ah, on this investigation, on this search, in my, in my mind anyway, is very interesting because what it says is that, there is ah, a dogged determination to find the truth. That the investigators that are assigned to this case are going to overturn every rock, to look under every rock, to look under ever stone um, seize every exhibit they can. You know, they’ve got an exhibit tracking system, right now they’ve got a brand new ah, computer system out there specifically designed for this investigation. All the highest tech um, ah, techniques are being brought in. I talked earlier there about ah, today about what I thought I was telling you about Sereena you might have thought I was talking about Roxanne.
Robert PICKTON: Who?
Sgt. Bill FORDY: About Sereena. I was talking about Sereena. We know the day July 19th, that she picked up that inhaler okay.
Robert PICKTON: That’s, that’s, that what I said, around ah...
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Yeah, you know the interesting thing is though, she was on the Methadone program and she had to pick up her Methadone everyday, she was never seen again after the 19th, she was at your place. We’re gonna be able to show download everything to show that she never left your property as well, that you killed her. Indisputable evidence Rob that you took her, that you, you’re also responsible for her. Now you’re probably sitting there right now, and you’re probably asking yourself what’s in it for me right now. What’s the, what do I do here now, to save face, how can I possibly, possibly come out of this situation right now, and, and keep it together. Because you’re, you’re thinking that you know you’ve had a pretty hard life, shit happens right, you know. It’s meant to be, it’s meant to be hey, hey, my, my, rock and roll will never die. And quite frankly you are a survivor. You told me earlier today how you’ve been attacked by a black bear. You were attacked by wild pigs or by pigs on your property. You’ve been attacked by crazy hookers, tried to kill you, Robert PICKTON you quite frankly you are a survivor. You have been able to come out of everything that anybody has ever thrown at you, you’re a hard working guy that has never in your life got one ounce of respect or recognition. And you will come out of this I am confident that you will survive this. You will do your crime, you will do your time but you will survive. Because you, my friend you are a survivor. You can take on black bears, you can take on wild boars, you can take on crazed hookers, you can survive this. So you’re asking yourself what is the up side for me here. The upside quite frankly Robert is you can go to jail on two conditions. You can go to jail with respect, with respect of yourself and with the other people you’re gonna be in jail with and other people that are gonna read the papers or you can go to jail with no respect. No self-respect, nobody caring about who Robert PICKTON is, cause you can go to jail on either set of terms with respect, or without respect. And you know, I wonder what you’re gonna do and I don’t know what the answer to that is because you’ve lived you’re whole life and no ones ever respected you. You told me about how you got on that tractor that day with blisters and puss running out of your leg, how you persevered through that cause you are clearly a survivor. How you survived that and yet Rob, no one has ever shown you the decency or respect that you deserved. The irony of it is this is the first time in your life, that you’ve ever been recognized. Right now you’re as big as the Pope. You know, Christ you know, you’re given the same amount of media coverage as Bin Laden got. This is the first time in your life, that people are actually noticing you. All the good things that you’ve done in your life and no ones ever paid you any respect for that. So now you’re in a situation where you can either have respect or you can have no respect. You can go back to the way you were. Shit (18:00) happens, back when life was good. (HAND COVERING EYES) The other aspect that you need to think about Rob, is this investigation is costing a million dollars a month. One million dollars per month, which isn’t a lot of money but on the other hand it is a lot of money when you consider that they’re gonna be there another year. So in addition to having some respect, the respect of the people you’ve got look at one, yourself, two the people you’re gonna be in jail with and three the people that are gonna read about you in the papers. You can save us a lot of money, you can be a hero, by taking us to where those girls are. Cause you took Sereena, and you took Mona and you can take us to them, and/or any other girls cause like I said to you Rob, I don’t think you killed all fifty but I do think that you are very logical. Okay, you’re like me, I see a situation, I analyze and I say okay, what’s the best way to deal with the situation. And right now you see this situation, you realize okay, the police have my DNA mixed with her DNA, I’m gonna go away now I need to de, to deal with what’s best. Cause there’s two ways to deal with it. I could deal with it one way, I can be up front, stand up be brave. Or I can deal with it another way because you know what, we talked about the little boy that cries wolf. He’s never believed. Now when they start looking at the missing kids, they’re gonna look at you too Rob. Was it just the hookers, or was it the hookers and the little kids? That’s what they’re gonna say, was he good, was he crazy, was he crazy or was he good? And I don’t know Rob, maybe you are crazy, you know, because I’ll quite frankly there are people that are gonna say you’re crazy, that you’re a wacko. That’s you’re a shell of a person, that is just a wacko, that wouldn’t care who he killed old, young, prostitutes. There are people that will say that about you. But there are also people that would, that might say you know what,
Robert PICKTON was a hero. When he knew that his day was over he at least had the decency to end it quickly. Because they’re gonna dig down everywhere on that property Rob. If they have to go under the townhouses they will, they’re gonna sift through every piece of stone, every piece of dirt, they’re gonna get all the bones out of there.
Robert PICKTON: What makes you think there’s even bones even in there?
Sgt. Bill FORDY: No well, I don’t know that Rob. I do know that you were responsible for taking those lives. (PAUSE) And if those bones have been mixed in and moved somewhere else, then I want you to take me there. Rob, that is what I want you to do. And you’re asking yourself why should I do this? I know you’re saying to yourself right now, what’s in it for me? If you don’t do this Rob, your side of the story is never gonna be told. Okay, cause people aren’t gonna believe it. The media is gonna paint their own story and it’s not gonna be the truth. If you want your side of the story to be told I’m the person to tell it to. That is what, that is if that is what you want to do. Because you have killed Sereena okay, and you have killed Mona and you know, we can’t change that. And you know, I don’t know you’ve said to me here today a number of times if you could change the past you wouldn’t. I don’t know if you mean that or not.
Robert PICKTON: I didn’t do anything.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: You, you did. Okay, how do you explain to me, (FORDY LEANS (18:05) FORWARD) I want you to explain to me how Mona, we’ll go with Mona’s first. How Mona’s blood is mixed with your blood? (PAUSE 20 SEC) I would like you to explain to me Rob, how your DNA is mixed with Mona’s DNA? (PAUSE 1 MIN 20 SEC)
Robert PICKTON: I don’t know. I don’t know. Just because she was on my property everything else, I don’t know how it got mixed up or whatever, I, I don’t know how I got set up on this here.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Okay. That’s, that’s a good answer. The, you know...
Robert PICKTON: I was never in that trailer.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Okay. I want you to explain to me, how Mona’s DNA got on the dildo. The .22 dildo.
Robert PICKTON: Yeah, because in my bottom drawer in my, in my ah, trailer. Now how it got ah, I, I’m not sure. I’m not sure. Unless somebody else trying to set me up. I’m never in that trailer. Sgt Bill FORDY: What trailer are you talking about?
Robert PICKTON: Or in the motor home. I haven’t been in there for quite a spell. Quite a spell.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Okay, so what you’re telling me Rob and I’m a logical guy okay. (FORDY STANDS UP) Now I’m just gonna you know, maybe I need, what I need to do is see it. Maybe that’ll help me out okay. I’m not sure so let’s, this is the DNA chart okay. (NEW FLIP CHART WRITTEN ON 18:08) Let’s call this Mona, Robert ah, Sereena and we’ll put here X for ah, if you able to give it an explanation okay. So we have Mona’s DNA and Robert’s DNA and we have them mixed. And that is mixed together and we don’t have an explanation right? Okay. We have Sereena’s DNA, Robert’s DNA and we have them mixed do I have an explanation? Can you explain to me how any of your DNA would be with her DNA? Her blood that is in your place.
Robert PICKTON: I got knifed back in ‘97.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Okay, that’s --------- , you’re talking about ---- ---- when you gotV(6) V(6) stabbed, your DNA. So you can’t explain that either can you.
Robert PICKTON: No I said I got knifed back in ‘97.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Okay I’m talking about mixed with her DNA.
Robert PICKTON: I don’t know what all...
Sgt. Bill FORDY: So there’s no explanation for that right. Is that, is that what you’re telling me? Okay that’s fine. So then we’ve got the dildo .22. We’ve got Mona’s DNA, Rob’s DNA in combination. And what’s slash, your explanation of that. I’m sorry?
Robert PICKTON: There’s a set up here somewhere’s.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: So you’ve got no explanation of that either, do you, okay.
Robert PICKTON: (SHAKES HEAD “NO”)
Sgt. Bill FORDY: So I’ve got one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine check marks, and no explanations.
Robert PICKTON: It don’t look good does it?
Sgt. Bill FORDY: It doesn’t look good does it? Ah, you know, one thing that I know is that when people are in a situation like you’re in right now and you know what you’d have to trust me ah, that people are, there are lots of people coming in and you know you maybe thinking to yourself, jeez you know what Bill I don’t know you that well, I don’t want to trust you. (FORDY SITS DOWN) First of all you’re a policeman and I don’t know if, if that’s what you’re thinking, but I want you to know that I haven’t lied to you about anything here today. And no policeman in the world is ever gonna try to set somebody up. (PICKTON YAWNS) Okay. Nobody else has your DNA, nobody else has Mona’s DNA, nobody else has Sereena’s DNA. Alright, their DNA is unique to them. This isn’t a set up. You know what, if it looks like a duck, and it quacks like a duck, it is a duck. If it looks like a pig, it squeals like a pig, it is a pig. Rob you are at the most important day of your life, you’re at the crossroads of your life. Right now you’re going down the road, you can go this way or you can go this way. One way you have respect and self- preservation another way you’re just a little liar. If you decide to tell me what happened, nobody can ever take that away from you. Nobody can ever, ever take that away from you, that self-respect that you’re gonna have. Alright. And if you look at all these check marks and you’re a logical guy, there’s only one conclusion.
Robert PICKTON: (YAWNING)
Sgt. Bill FORDY: If it looks like a pig, squeals like a pig, smells like a pig, it is a pig. Rob. And right now you’re asking yourself, how do I deal with this, what do I do? It’s painfully obvious what you need to do Rob. It is painfully obvious. Out of everything that you’ve done you can still be a hero at some level, by resolving this, one hundred percent. You know what, you know how Goldie got kicked by those two little fillies, and as a result of it you had to take her in to the taxidermist and get her head stuffed. Remember you told me that, how Goldie got hurt? See these two little fillies here, Mona, Sereena, these two fillies have just kicked you. You’re done. Just like you couldn’t fix her, you couldn’t fix Goldie, couldn’t bring her back and make her the way she was. Make him the way he was, you can never be the way you were again. Now we need to talk about the upside. How can this work better for you? How can you get some respect? How can people really know what happened with Robert PICKTON? There’s only one way for that to happen Rob and that’s for you to tell me. For you to say Bill, this is what happened. Very matter of fact, very business like (PAUSE). Because it’s not a matter of fact, if you, if you think for a second that you’re being quiet um, ah, is gonna help somehow help you through this, okay. Rob, and I’m not threatening you or anything like that, because you’re the one who has to live with yourself. At the end of the day I can go home and I can respect myself and look forward to the rest of my life. You need to start thinking about the rest of your life now. (DRAWING ON CHART) What is the best way for you to live the rest of your life cause this is a highway, it’s gonna go one way or it’s gonna go another. I’ve just shown, you’ve seen the map, nine to zero. Eight other female DNA profiles, habits, see this has only been ten days, twelve days Rob, since this broke. Since the Tuesday prior, it’s the sixth. And there’s ten profiles, two of which, which you’re mixed with. (FORDY MOVES OVER TO PICTURE BOARD AND TAPS ON PICTURE 1) Sereena ABOTSWAY was never seen again after the 19th, the day she picked up that inhaler that you have. She was never seen again. So when you do the math, Rob it’s crystal clear what the right thing to do is. A couple of days ago you know, I got (18:17) home from work late, Rob and ah, my wife said go talk to Liam. I said why? She said because he called Jim an asshole. Jim is my neighbour Rob, he’s a very nice man, but ah, I’ve been working late a lot lately and I haven’t been home much, and I went up to Liam’s room, and he was in his bedroom and I said Liam I need to talk to you. He said, okay. And he said, I said mom said that you called Jim an asshole. He said yeah. I said, why did you do that? He started to cry. I said Liam I need to, I need you to answer my question. Why did you call Jim an asshole? And he said because when I was walking to school, I had slept in ah, that morning alright, because I was late getting home. Jim was swearing about my police car being parked on the sidewalk. So my son heard Liam say, heard Jim say, complain that my car was parked on the sidewalk, and he says, and Jim says, or my, Liam said Jim you’re an asshole and my wife heard it. And until I went up and I sat down and he explained to me why he said that Jim was an asshole, my wife didn’t understand. But when he explained what happened and understood then she forgave him and I forgave him and I hugged him and I said okay, Liam thanks for explaining that to me and I went downstairs and watched some TV and then I told my wife. Up until he explained it, my wife just thought he was be, ah, being a bad kid and misbehaving. Because in the absence of an explanation people always think the worst. And that’s what people are gonna think of you Rob, the worst and the absence of you giving an explanation. This is not about smoke and mirrors, this is about logic, it’s crystal clear right there, look at those check marks. It’s right there, DNA, DNA, DNA. There’s witnesses that see these ST people, (FORDY TAPS 1 PHOTO ON THE BOARD) she was in a transition house in Surrey with another girl that’s on this poster. And a friend of her’s called in, gave a statement, you may or may not know her friend, Yolanda DYCK, DICK. She actually saw you and Sereena together. That’s right. She saw pictures of you in the paper and felt it was important to phone in. This is not gonna stop Rob, people are gonna keep calling in, witnesses are gonna keep calling in, they’re gonna keep finding DNA. You’re friends are gonna keep turning on you, you can stop all that right now. You can turn all that around if you want. All that if you want, and you know in terms of understanding, you know I will give you some credit. You know, none of these bodies have been found out in public places or in schoolyards where kids can find them. You know, they’re not in the middle of a shopping cart, in the middle of a parking lot, where mom and her two kids on their way there, they were off to Safe Way can find these kids. You know, you’ve taken the decency to, to get rid of them in a good means. You know, you never meant to shock the community, you know, at least I think that’s the case and I hope that is the case, and you’re the only one who can tell me if that is the case Rob. They weren’t left out “to rot” like pigs in ah, in a, ah, middle of a parking lot, in the sun. Well there actually is the one guy who ah, drove by the one day and saw the raven pecking on a native girl, bloated and you came out and yelled at him he said he was bird watching. And he left and came back and her body was gone.
Robert PICKTON: What?
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Yeah. There’s all kinds of people calls coming in now.
Robert PICKTON: A raven.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Yeah, like a crow, black crow, black bird.
Robert PICKTON: Picking on a somebody.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Picking on a girl yeah. And you came out and shooed him off the yard, he was bird watching. It’s not gonna stop. (PICKTON TAKES A DRINK) The funniest thing is ah, I hope this isn’t the case, that you think that you know, you’re gonna, your butt saved by somebody like Dinah TAYLOR or something like that, who ah, was interviewed today and she’s actually in Thunder Bay now, at a Reserve there. Ah, who tells us that she’s the one who actually told you the story about where to say you got something, something from her. She was gonna say was ah, at a hotel or something. So these lies, you know, once you start adding them all in with the check marks um, paint a pretty disparaging picture for you Rob. And now the logical thing, the logical part of you needs to look at that and say I am done here, here, here, and here, and here. Now what is the best thing for me to do. Do I go through door number one or do I go through door number two? Both doors might be a little bit rusty, a little bit bumpy Rob, I’m not gonna be dishonest with you, I’m not gonna lie to you about that. You know, life is not ah, gonna be a roller coaster. There’s gonna be some ups and some downs that’s for sure. But at the end of the day you could do one, one thing right here, and you know, you could go out, I guess with style and you can take us and you can show us where some of these girls are. (PAUSE 40 SEC) You can take us out if you want and show us where, Heather is. (KNOCKS ON THE PICTURE BOARD) Tell us what you did to her. If you like. (PAUSE 25 SEC) th (KNOCKS ON 6 PICTURE) Diane ROCK you can show us what you did with her. (KNOCKING)
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: Hi Bill. I’m just wondering if I should spend, come in and spend just a couple of seconds with Willy so that, I don’t think he’s quite got the whole picture of what’s going on here.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Absolutely, do you want me to leave you with him?
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: No, no I’m just only ah, just want to lay this out for him because ah, you guys ah, hi Bob, or Robert which to do you prefer to be called?
Robert PICKTON: Doesn’t matter.
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: It’s hard for Don ADAM by the way. (SHAKES HANDS) Have a seat. I’ll call you well I don’t know, I’ve heard some people say you prefer to be called Robert, I knew you as Willy, I used to be stationed in Coquitlam back in the early eighties with John PEARSON and then all those guys back in the days when ah, you guys were burying equipment and doing that kind of stuff. Bob I’m in charge of this investigation alright, I’m a S/Sgt. and ah, Bill’s gone over some of this stuff but I think that maybe you need to hear from me sort of the overall picture and I’m not gonna be, spend a lot of time with you, but I want to just set things out, sort of crystal clear as to how this comes together. Okay. The first thing you need to know is this, okay Robert. Right now we can associate you to twelve of these women. Alright, and that’s two weeks into the investigation. Okay, twelve of them. Next you need to know is that relative to Sereena ABOTSWAY and, and ah, I’m not a front line investigator right, I direct the guys, relative to her we have Linda DICK, who will state last summer that she met you and Sereena together and Sereena introduced you alright as Robert and that Sereena said you were going out to your farm. (PICKTON (18:30) SHAKES HEAD “NO”) No, no, no. No, just wait and listen. Okay. Okay, just wait and listen. Never saw her again, that will be evidence. The next evidence is that I’ve got my people tracking every movement of Sereena ABOTSWAY. Sereena ABOTSWAY was no good with money Robert. What happened is that every three days she would have to go to Welfare to get money, they would give her I think it’s thirty-five dollars. I could stand to be corrected on that but she was no good with it. She was always in getting her asthma medicine alright. She disappeared on the 19th of July, 2001 alright. So firstly, DICK puts you with her, secondly we can lock in when she disappeared, alright. Now Bill’s talked to you about that, but here’s your problem alright. The media released about that ah, inhaler alright. We have statements from people, including your brother, alright, where you say yes, it was a shiny case, I brought it into the house. Willy that’s gonna be the evidence, alright. A shiny case I brought into the house. You discuss it with a whole bunch of people and we have that. You can’t move away from that’s your position. Willy, you need to understand something, that inhaler was not found by itself in your house, it was found in a tote bag belonging to Sereena ABOTSWAY. Inside the tote bag are her shoes, her clothes, a needle and on that needle is her DNA and your DNA, together. Okay. Additionally, when we went out into the garbage, we found layers of garbage, we found her second inhaler that she got on the ah, 19th, in your garbage. No, no, no this is a fact, in your garbage, under layers of garbage we found two more of her inhalers. Yeah, we got four of them. Alright. Willy, you need to understand, you told a lie to try and justify how that inhaler got into your house, (PICKTON SHAKES HEAD “NO”) oh yeah, Willy. There’s no point in shaking your head just listen to me, so you know what the evidence is, cause you need to know where you are. You need to know where you are because only by knowing where you are Willy, only by knowing exactly how locked in your are, how the lies are dragging you down like a stone. If you pick up a great big boulder Willy and step into a deep lake, what happens to you? (PICKTON WIPES HIS EYES) You go to the bottom don’t you. And the lies that you’ve told, the little cover ups you’ve tried to create, are stones that are gonna carry you to the bottom Willy. Alright, so you need to listen to me ‘cause I am not here to lie, and Bill got a bit of the evidence confused alright and it’s not his intention to lie and I’m gonna straighten up that confusion out right here and now. Cause we’re not here to lie to you about evidence, and we’re not here to exaggerate the evidence Willy. We don’t have to. Do you understand? So where, where Bill has got, made mistakes or got confused I’m gonna straighten you out on that. Sereena ABOTSWAY you will be convicted of that, alright. On the tote bag Willy is her blood. Alright. And Willy you are locked into all of your stories about finding that one inhaler, Willy one inhaler. Not a tote bag with blood, not extra inhalers in your garbage, not any of that stuff Willy. You are completely finished on that case. Mona WILSON, that is a murder site inside that motor home. We have got tons of witness talking about you in that motor home. There are tons of them. I’ve got forty-five guys out taking statements and have working night and day. Alright. I’ve got a room full of statements, videos, Dictaphone taped statements, everybody talking about you. It is an army of investigators and they are the best in the province and we’re not making mistakes Willy, it is coming down on you like an avalanche okay, and you’ve helped to bring it down, by your little stories alright, and we have that from the people. They’re afraid of you alright, and they tell you oh, well this, but in truth they’re giving us stuff. Mona WILSON, that’s a murder scene, alright, no doubt about it. There’s the drag marks, where you dragged her out of there. Alright. There’s the fact that you’ve got the dildo with the gun and your mixed DNA with hers on that dildo. How do you think a jury is gonna look at a dildo on the end of a gun Willy, that’s got DNA of you and her connected with a murder scene. What are they gonna think alright. Probably what happened Willy, I don’t know. It doesn’t end there, we’ve got the I.D. of Heather BOTTOMLEY, alright another girl, we got more identification, more property of another girl there. We got the statements alright, your friend alright and he is your friend, he likes you, he talks about liking you. But he’s not willing to sit by Willy when you murder somebody. People aren’t willing to stand by you when you, when they know you’re a killer. And you know he talks about the needle with the windshield washer fluid.
Robert PICKTON: I don’t know nothing about that.
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: You don’t know anything about that absolutely not. (SHAKING HEAD) Well Willy I got bad news for you because inside your ah, entertainment unit or whatever it is, a chest of drawers in your trailer.
Robert PICKTON: Um, hum.
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: Guess what’s there? A needle with windshield washer fluid. Yes Willy absolutely.
Robert PICKTON: I know nothing about that.
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: Willy tell me your story.
Robert PICKTON: I’m honest with you.
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: Well you want to know something, I haven’t even started but you want to know how bad it is, that your brother Dave alright, is talking to a Mark and Bruce those two policemen he’s been dealing with and talking with. He told them today I know it’s over for Willy, I know there’s bodies, he’s, he’s saying Dinah TAYLOR killed some of those women. Some of the women, women it wasn’t Willy that did it, he just got rid of the bodies and he’s gonna come forward with that evidence. But Willy, that may be true, but your brother’s saying that alright. Now, I don’t know if your brother knows where the bodies is, are or whether but he’s already given that up to the them and he’s just got a work out the final arrangements to give that up. Willy, maybe you didn’t kill every single one of those, maybe Dinah TAYLOR is involved in some of it, maybe you were getting blackmailed we know that Lynn ELLINGSEN was blackmailing you alright. We know that. Do you understand? If you’ve been used Willy, if you’ve been drawn into this by people, may be pressured, then you need to explain that. You need to explain it Willy. Okay, but it’s coming down, Dinah TAYLOR alright, after she told what, she, she took off out of here, and went back to the Reserve in Ontario. We flew some policemen out there and they went to her house with her mom and dad and her mom and dad and them talked her into cooperating and she said that she had phoned you and tried to cook up a story with you about some sort of a duffle bag, that it came from the, some hotel ah, the Cobalt. She gave that up.
Robert PICKTON: That’s true.
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: Yeah, well she did phone you, because she told us that.
Robert PICKTON: That’s true, it came from the Cobalt.
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: No, no, no. She, she told our, our people that that was a story that you, you guys agreed to tell.
Robert PICKTON: No.
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: Well I’m telling you that’s what, that’s where we are now Willy. You need to understand this, Lynn ELLINGSEN, alright, who was blackmailing you, is negotiating with her lawyer to give you up right now, so that she doesn’t go down for whatever her involvement was. Right now. Her lawyer’s have called us and are negotiating. Willy do you know who Paul BERNARDO is? Paul BERNARDO killed two young girls back in Ontario okay and he, he killed them with his wife, her name is Karla HOLMOLKA. Alright and they’re, they’re famous here in Canada because it’s sort of the first man/woman team that we’re aware of where they were involved in serial killings. Now running this file Willy, I can tell you that I’m sitting here going I don’t know how involved or, or uninvolved TAYLOR and ELLINGSEN are with you, I know they were bringing girls out to you. I’ve got tons of evidence of that, I know that ELLINGSEN has talked about blackmailing you alright. She talks about coming in while you were skinning a girl, hanging on a hook.
Robert PICKTON: That’s not true.
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: Well Willy you know how bad it is.
Robert PICKTON: That’s here nor there.
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: Listen to me for a second, you know how bad it is alright. I know that you were angry against the girls, I know that, that one of these girls that you blame them for giving you Hep ‘C’ that’s true isn’t it? (PICKTON SHAKES HEAD “NO”) They did give you well, I got, I got people lined up to tell me that you’ve said that Willy. If it’s a situation where you weren’t thinking straight, that your anger at being stabbed, that you’re upset over being sick because of that, caused you to make these mistakes. Give people a chance to understand. Because you know what, you do not want to be hated and, and despised as you go through the rest of your life. Okay, so you gotta start thinking longer term you know. We’re not, we’re not offering you any deals Willy cause we don’t have to. Do you understand? Like we don’t have to, do you know what’s in it for us, why we care? Two reasons Willy, number one is that I know these families alright. I met them, I know them, and I know that, that these ladies you know, their lives went, went wrong. Okay, and I know that you have nothing but contempt for them alright, and I know that in my life, before I got involved in this file, they’re not the kind of, I would just ignore them. I wouldn’t think about it. But I’ve met their families and they didn’t end up wanting their kids to be that way and your mom and dad didn’t end up wanting you to be a serial killer. Do you understand Willy? That’s not what we want for our kids. Your brother doesn’t want you destroyed he wants to try and understand. Now I’ll tell you what though, is that half of my investigators think that Dave’s fully involved in this, they think that the two of you were involved. Alright. There’s other people that think the Hell’s Angels are involved with you. (PICKTON SHIFTS IN CHAIR) Okay. Willy you know how big or how small this is, (ADAM MOVES CLOSER) you know whether it’s just you, you know whether it’s you and the girls, alright and you know whether it’s you and Dinah, you know whether it’s you and Lynn, you know what that is Willy. You know whether it’s you and Dave. But if you’re lookin’ for why you should deal with this thing, deal with it up front, I can tell you a number of really good reasons. It that by explaining, giving people a chance to understand is gonna made a huge difference in how you’re treated for the rest of your life. It’s gonna make a huge difference in whether or not you’re seen with utter contempt or in that prison environment with respect. The truth is Willy you’re probably gonna be the largest serial killer in the history of Canada, you’re gonna be a very, very famous guy. Alright, you will have achieved something. You know you eluded the police for years and years, let’s face it. It’s pretty amazing. But it is over. And you know what Willy, you’re a smart, logical person, Billy said it, it’s true. And the reality is, is that I believe you want to be, make it a smart, logical choice as we deal with this. And you want to be explaining about Lynn and Dinah and where all that happened. Cause if they were pressuring you, if they were doing things, blackmailing you, holding stuff over, if they’re fully involved, that gives some explanation to it. That’s gonna be something that allows Dave, you know, your sister, the rest of the people you know, and there, and there’s lots of stuff up in the air. Willy, there’s some people that think you hate your sister. There’s people who talk about how Dave treats you, that Dave treats you badly, that he yells at you, and you know, and that you’re hostile towards him. Is that true? (SHAKES HEAD “NO”) I mean he I know he does yell at you,cause you can’t, he gets angry with you. You know Willy, I know that they’ve all done better than you, their lives have been better than yours. You broke out of the farm once, when was that, what year was it that you went down south?
Robert PICKTON: ‘74.
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: In 1974, did you take a bus?
Robert PICKTON: I flew all the way down there.
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: You flew.
Robert PICKTON: I flew down there.
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: How did you chose that place, how did you choose that?
Robert PICKTON: Ah, (INDECIPHERABLE) pen pals.
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: How did you become pen pals with her?
Robert PICKTON: Writing.
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: Pardon?
Robert PICKTON: Writing.
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: Okay, and she invited you down?
Robert PICKTON: Yeah.
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: How old were you then?
Robert PICKTON: Twenty-four.
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: Twenty-four years old, your whole life ahead of you right. Willy that (18:45) was your chance to get away, to step away from the farm, to step away what it was doing with you and to you. You know, Bill and I talked to a young guy who’s a killer out of Chilliwack. And he was a young guy, his parents are dairy farmers, and what he talked about is the fact the farm was a trap. His parents health wasn’t good, and everyday from four o’clock til seven o’clock until he dragged himself home to drop into bed asleep, he worked.And he couldn’t take a holiday, because the cows needed to be milked and he couldn’t have a relationship because the cows and the work needed to be done, and he was completely tied to that life and it was like a noose around his neck Willy, tightening, choking, choking the life out of him, choking the youth out of him. And in him, what that created is anger, anger at the unfairness of it, his sisters went off University, he stayed. His parents got older, more frail, his, his chance to escape faded. Do you understand Willy? His options, in our lives we want options, we want chances to do things, we want, we want to be able to grow, we want to be able to meet somebody we care about, not prostitutes, Willy. We’ve got lots of statements from prostitutes about the fact that you turn them over and you have sex with and you never even look at them. You won’t ever look at them cause your not proud of what you’re doing, are you Willy?
Robert PICKTON: Yeah
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: Pardon.
Robert PICKTON: Really never had no, no sex with them?
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: Pardon?
Robert PICKTON: Never had much sex with them.
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: You never had much sex with them. No then that’s true. But sometimes you did. (PICKTON SHAKES HEAD “NO”) Yeah, well I’ve got statements from them.
Robert PICKTON: Okay.
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: I’ve read ‘em Willy.
Robert PICKTON: Yeah.
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: You know what I mean.
Robert PICKTON: The ones brought over and...those...
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: And you had the girls bring them out right? You’ve had, did Lisa ever bring out girls for you?
Robert PICKTON: Who?
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: Isn’t it Lisa YELLS, YELLS, blond haired girl, she used to be married to Blacky the biker.
Robert PICKTON: YELLS, YELLS, Lee.
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: Yeah, did she ever bring girls out for you, or is your relationship with her not that?
Robert PICKTON: Lee’s nice.
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: No, but did she ever bring girls out for you?
Robert PICKTON: No.
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Alright, so the ones that brought girls out for you.
Robert PICKTON: Lee, Lee, Lee YELLS. YELLS, that’s, that’s her name.
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: Okay.
Robert PICKTON: I couldn’t think of her name.
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: Alright we know that Dinah brought out girls, right? You, you don’t need to think about it Robert you know, that’s a fact, we know that, you know that. Alright. We know that ah, ELLINGSEN did, Lynn correct? Alright. What I don’t know right now is whether they were full participants in some of these killings okay, whether, whether they were pushing you. We know that Lynn was blackmailing you, alright. You’ve told people that and we’ve got those statements and you know what, she is going to screw you again, like, everything she’s done to you, she is gonna screw you again Willy. And that’s one of the things you could stop. You choose to tell the truth here tonight, and that choice is yours alright. But you could screw her right back because if you talk before she does, there’s no need for us to make a deal with her, we could be down there arresting her later on tonight if you tell the truth about what was going on, do you understand? Don’t you get tired of being beat up by people, and abused and used Willy? Aren’t you tired of it? Isn’t it time you did something just for me, just for yourself? Don’t let these people beat you up, make you into a monster, use you, walk away from everything they’ve done, laughing and what, selling their story to CNN, so they make money on it. You know how it goes. That’s all in the palm of your hand, alright. Are you gonna be made a fool of by these people, don’t do it Willy. Don’t do it. You are finished, but at least deal with things now. Because I’ll tell you as a cop alright, as the guy running this file I want to get to the truth, and you know what, if Dinah, like your brother says has killed some of these girls, maybe that’s not true, maybe that’s just you know, your, you know, you just want to try and explain why we’re gonna find bodies okay. Do you understand? But if she has, or if Lynn knew and was still bringing the girls out, which is what I think, and Dinah was, then don’t let them make money and make themselves famous and make you look worse, and drive you into the dirt Willy. Cause you have the power right here and right now to put a stop to this, and you know all you gotta do is tell the truth, tell the truth. We sort it out, cause suddenly when you tell the truth they had no more power to hurt you. They have no more power to make money off you, they have no more power to make deals okay. Cause I’m telling you that’s how it works. Her lawyer’s in negotiating, right now, Lynn’s and you know she can hurt you, you know that, and she has hurt you. She’s blackmailed you, she’s betrayed you and she’s gonna do it again. Willy don’t lay down and let them stomp all over you do you understand, is that reasonable, does that make sense to you? That’s what I’m saying, you know, you’re sitting there wondering should I, should I give them this information, should I deal with this, what’s in it for me? There’s lots in it for you. There’s lots in it for you, because you make a decision am I gonna be used by these people over and over and over, people you helped Willy. You could have killed those two girls, you didn’t, did you. Do you see what I mean, you could have though, but you didn’t because something in you care about those girls. And now they’ve done this to you, it’s not right Willy, it’s not right, it’s not right that she blackmailed you, it’s not right what they’re doing, don’t let them use you. I’m holding out my hand to you, I’m offering you a chance to have some dignity, to walk, to walk through this thing. To stop being used by people, to not let them win and you lose. Are you know that somebody who blackmailed you, made fun of you, ridicules you when she’s talking to other people, in other words talks down about you. Are you gonna let her win again? All for some lost cause Willy. Cause it is a lost cause. The evidence against you is overwhelming, I mean I’ve touched on a small fraction of it, it literally is pouring in so fast that I have to bring in more and more people just to organize it. And I sit there and I write, I’ve written about five notebooks over the last couple of weeks. Well that’s an exaggeration about three, three full big notebooks of evidence as it just comes in, I can’t even keep it straight myself Willy. It’s so powerful, it’s like a giant avalanche coming down the mountain, okay. And it is over, it’s over whether you choose to talk about it or not, it’s over. But if you choose not to talk about it, a) the families of these people get hurt more, cause it’s gonna take time for us to dig up the girls and whatever’s left alright, and I don’t want that. I want closure for those families, it’s breaking their hearts. You get used, we will end up making deals with, with Dinah, she’s already you know, she’s not at the lawyer stage yet, but she’s negotiating, she, she had a good meeting with our two members that flew out there. Her family want’s her to cooperate, you know, that’s just a matter of time. Now that you’re, now that you’re in custody she know, she knows that you’re dangerous to her, cause you know what’s she done and you know what Lynn’s done. Okay, so it’s gonna become a race to see who, who deals with things first. If you let them win you’ve just let them win again Willy. You’ve just let them win again and that’s a mistake, that’s a mistake you know. Dave knows it’s over ...
Robert PICKTON: Well the best thing I gotta talk to Dinah anyways before I do anything anyways...
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: I’m sorry you gotta what?
Robert PICKTON: I got to talk Dinah anyways before anything.
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: To say what? Like Dinah can I, is it alright if I go and show them the bodies?
Robert PICKTON: No.
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: Willy look at me for a sec, okay.
Robert PICKTON: I gotta talk to her anyways first.
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: Well you’re not gonna be able to talk to her. Alright. Our people are gonna be negotiating with her over the next little while and they’ll come to some agreement. Dave is saying alright, Dave told Mark and Bruce this morning, that it’s all gonna be over, that there are bodies, and that you didn’t kill them all. Alright but, but look at me Willy, alright. He’s already told them...
Robert PICKTON: There are bodies.
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: That there’s murd, been murders and he said you told him okay. I think he wants to believe that in some ways Dinah has killed some of these girls and that, and that for some of them, you’ve just helped get rid of the bodies. Okay, that, that is probably partially true, okay Robert, partially true. Well maybe it’s, maybe it’s not, maybe it was just you couldn’t tell your own brother you’d done this. Okay. You know that, you know which is the truth, whether she did or whether it is all you, and Robert look at me for a sec, I’m only asking for the truth. Do you understand that? That’s what you need to focus on right now. Cause if you tell a bunch of lies and stories, then Lynn wins, do you know what I mean? I know that you still, you clearly have feelings for Dinah don’t you? Okay. Do you understand if Dinah has killed these girls then she has to deal with that, do you understand that? Does that make sense to you? If she hasn’t you know, then we need to know that, so we’re not looking at her as a killer.
Robert PICKTON: Yeah, but I gotta talk to her anyways first, before I say anything.
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: No but, but okay, let’s examine that for a second Willy. Tell me why we should let you do that.
Robert PICKTON: Well I’d like to talk to her.
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: No, no, no I know, but, but let me ask you this, you know, I mean if you were a cop, why would you, why would you allow that to happen? If you were in my shoes.
Robert PICKTON: Well, I just want to talk to her.
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: I know but I mean, why should I as a policeman, allow two suspects to talk to each other.
Robert PICKTON: (PAUSE) Well, I’m not a suspect anymore am I?
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: No, well yeah, you’re charged, you’re...
Robert PICKTON: There you are. So I’m not a suspect anymore.
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: Well you’re still suspect in all the other ones. Right.
Robert PICKTON: It’s gonna come out anyways right?
Sgt. Bill FORDY: Pardon?
Robert PICKTON: It’s gonna come out anyways.
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: Yeah, it may take...
Robert PICKTON: About myself. It doesn’t matter.
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: What’s the point?
Robert PICKTON: That’s what I’m saying.
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: Okay. Let me ask you this Willy then,...
Robert PICKTON: But I gotta talk to her first.
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: No, well then let’s just deal with one step at a time. I know you care about Dinah, what about Lynn, how do you feel about her?
Robert PICKTON: Okay. I think she’s a nice person.
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: Um, hum. Did you think that when she was blackmailing you? Willy you didn’t, did you? No one likes to be blackmailed, come on, let’s be honest with each other, right.
Robert PICKTON: Yeah.
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: Okay. I mean you’re angry...
Robert PICKTON: She, she did blackmail me.
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: I know she did.
Robert PICKTON: Time and time over. Time and time over.
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: She says it’s because she walked in when you were skinning a girl.
Robert PICKTON: Yeah, right.
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: Well Willy, we’ve, we’ve had you I’m telling you right now, we’ve got statements from other people saying that you’ve done that. Willy, we’ve got people saying that you used to have sex with them when they were dead, that you were...
Robert PICKTON: Oh yeah, right.
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: Well I’m telling you...
Robert PICKTON: Okay.
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: That you know what, how bad things are or were, what the situation is right. You know whether you are the worst monster to ever come down the pike here in Canada...
Robert PICKTON: (LAUGHING)
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: ...or not. You know whether you’ve killed, killed fifty women or, or more because one thing Bill didn’t tell you okay, that those eight unidentified women’s DNA, Willy they’re all in the blood. Not, not, not this, look at my hand, (ADAM PUTS HAND ON WALL) it’s not (19:00) this, it’s blood. Blood’s all over your, your place. And do you want to know what, in that trailer, there’s more blood, there’s not just, not just ah, Mona WILSON, there’s, there’s other blood in there that’s gonna probably be other kill sites. Do you know what’s gonna happen they, they’re moving the lab right on site, we’re actually putting a lab up there right now there are nine trailers on your property. Alright. They got, they’ve devised a method where they’re gonna be able to separate ah, rapidly the pig blood from human blood. They’re gonna be moving into the slaughterhouse, Willy, there’s I absolutely believe we’re gonna find the human blood in there. What about that? Where do we go then? When everybody’s won except you, where do we go? When the deals have been made with the woman who was blackmailing you, when she’s escaped her responsibility, see you only get one chance. You only get one chance and if you want to let her win, get used again, I saw how you felt about being blackmailed. No one likes to be blackmailed, but for one moment Willy, in your life, you have a chance to pay back, you have a chance to pay back. And if you choose not to, then that whore’s just used you again. Because the reality is some of these guys who are talking about things that you’ve done and there’s lots of them. Alright. You know, Bill showed you know, one and you listened to one but the reality is, is that you may have things that you can say about them, to even things up. But the only way you can do that is by telling the truth and by dealing with it. So you wonder what’s in it for you Willy, it’s a chance to not get kicked in the chops again by these people. Alright. Cause the other side of it, I mean we all try and protect ourselves you know, we all try and protect ourselves. You know Willy if a doctor said to me, Don you got cancer in your arm alright. If he said to me well I’m gonna chop your arm off do you think I would want my arm chopped off Willy? Do you think I would? But if I knew that the, if I didn’t deal with my arm, if I, that it was gonna turn into gangrene and I would die, then I’d make a decision don’t I, logically I make a decision that you know, I’m finished if I don’t do this. Well Willy you’re finished okay, you are finished and the question you need to ask yourself is am I gonna be used by everybody every time I turn around right into the end. Cause your bargaining power is disappearing. Cause in the end if you choose not to tell alright, the investigation simply keeps rolling, the search continues, unfortunately the families, they have to live with uncertainty for another year as we dig and find the DNA and the teeth and the hair and the everything (PICKTON LAUGHS). What you laugh, I know cause I know you don’t really care.
Robert PICKTON: I don’t think you’ll find anything.
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: Pardon.
Robert PICKTON: You won’t find anything. You won’t find anything cause there’s nothing there.
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: Well Willy, I don’t believe you. Look me in the eyes. We’ll find it. (PICKTON SHAKES HEAD “NO”) Willy we’ll find it. Like are you so foolish that you can’t see what we’re gonna do. You can’t see the millions that we’re gonna spend, we’re gonna fine tooth comb that. You think we’re not gonna find things, we’ve got your trailer, your mobile home, we’ve got all the evidence that you lived in there, alright. We know that you lived in the basement before that, we don’t know when your killing started Willy, we don’t know when the killing started alright. There’s things we don’t know, I’m, I’m not gonna kid you about that. We don’t know whether you started killing back in, in the late eighties...
Robert PICKTON: Oh yeah right. (PICKTON RUBS HIS EYES)
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: But Willy we don’t. We don’t know whether you started killing sometime in the early nineties alright. I’m thinking at a minimum by ‘97 you were full blown into it. Okay. And like I say, we can associate twelve to you already and we have just started. Just started. Alright. Cause we took down the wallpaper alright, that had that had the blood on it and now in behind is your old wood paneling but we’re gonna go over ever square inch of that alright, and that blood gets in there, it dries and it would last there for five hundred years, in that state and Willy, we’ll just pull it out. You changed the carpet, do you remember?
Robert PICKTON: No.
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: Yes.
Robert PICKTON: Cause there’s no carpet in there. (FORDY LEAVES)
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: ---------- --- - ah, ELLINGSEN’s ah, during ELLINGSEN ah, or sorry V(6) ---------------- (PHONETIC) when she stabbed you. ---- - - - V(6) V(6) ---------------- remember.
Robert PICKTON: Oh is that right?
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: Alright, when she stabbed you we took all the pictures...
Robert PICKTON: Oh yah, yah, yeah.
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: There was carpet on the floor.
Robert PICKTON: Yeah.
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: Do you remember, we’ve got the person who changed that carpet. We’re gonna go in, we’re gonna take up the floor and the blood and stuff alright, from all of the girls, is gonna be there Willy. And there’s nothing you can do to change that alright. All you can do is end up losing Willy, because the only power you have is right now. Right now, people care about your story. But once the deals have been made with Lynn, and the deals have been made with Dinah, and the deals have been made with the other people alright, to get you know, deal with you, and it won’t matter. You’ll have no bargaining power anymore.
Robert PICKTON: Now I gotta talk to Dinah.
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: well you’re not gonna talk to Dinah. Willy look at me, you’re not gonna talk to Dinah, we’re gonna talk to Dinah and either you’re gonna deal with this or we’re gonna make a deal with her. Alright. She’s already come part way, she’s already talked about coaching you on the Cobalt and the ah, black bag that’s got all the women’s clothing in it. Alright, she’s already told us about that discussion, of coaching you. You know what I mean by coaching.
Robert PICKTON: (INDECIPHERABLE) I talked to her already.
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: Yeah, well we talked to her after you talked to her.
Robert PICKTON: Yeah.
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: Okay. Well she, I’ll tell you what, she hasn’t phoned you back.
Robert PICKTON: She can’t get a hold me, unless I phone her.
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: Alright. I mean obviously Dinah’s focused on her own, what’s good for her, right. But I think there’s a difference I, I think that Lynn wants to hurt you, I don’t think she likes you, alright. And you were money to her when she was blackmailing you and you gave it to her alright. And we both discussed that that you know, how you felt about that, you were angry, you wanted her killed.
Robert PICKTON: Who?
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: Lynn.
Robert PICKTON: No way.
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: Really Willy, you’re sure about that?
Robert PICKTON: Um, hum.
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: (ADAM LEANS FORWARD) And if somebody came forward, a couple of people and said that, that you want....
Robert PICKTON: Why, why would I, why would I phone the paramedics on her, when she almost dropped dead?
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: Was she blackmailing you by that time?
Robert PICKTON: Well I mean, I wasn’t worried about blackmail, but I was the problem was I was more worried about her health.
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: Right on, but and that, you tell me something, you, you try and save her life.
Robert PICKTON: I did, I saved it twice.
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: Okay, and then she ends up blackmailing you. What does that tell you about her? What does that tell you about her Willy? Would you blackmail somebody who saved your life? Let me ask you a question, would you? You wouldn’t would you. Do you agree, you wouldn’t do it. (ADAM LEANS BACK) I know that much about you, I was a young kid in Coquitlam and I knew about you. Willy would you blackmail somebody who saved your life, you wouldn’t would you? You see Willy that’s what’s puzzling, is that, is that you have done good things for people, do you understand. I’ve got those people not everybody who has something to say about you, says you’re a bad guy. You’ve done a lot of good things. Do you understand? But Willy something’s gone haywire do you understand, (PICKTON PUTS HEAD IN HAND) something’s gone haywire. Like I mean, are, you know it’s not normal to kill women, I mean you know that right. Do we agree on that, that that’s not a good thing to do, that’s not a normal thing to do. Something’s happened whether you, whether you came to hate them Willy, whether you came to blame them for, for having Hepatitis but somewhere your thinking went off. Do you understand? But what is at issue here, what this conversation is about, is that, is there a good Willy PICKTON, is there a good human being in there somewhere. And I can tell you, having worked in Po Co back in the late seventies, is that I did, I can remember you and your brother, and I can remember hearing good things about you. You know, you yes some, I mean everyone said you were into, to stealing cars and, and what have you so what, right, that’s life. (ADAM LEANS FURTHER BACK) Do you understand Willy, do you know something, if you don’t take the chance and the opportunity to try and explain then every good thing you’ve done in your life, all the things that your mother would have been proud of, and your dad would have been proud of, are gone, are lost. And if people can paint you Willy, as just a one, simple, evil, evil, hideous creature, who not only probably killed all of these women, but maybe would have liked to have killed you know, grabbed women off the street. Maybe would have you know, sexually assaulted ah, the kids that came around the park, you know, the farm. You know, we know that you did nice things for some of the kids right. You took, you gave them riding lessons, you you know, you were good to some people weren’t you? Do you want everybody saying that oh, well so and so used to go over to Willy PICKTON’s, well he probably had sex with her when she was a little girl. He probably did this, he was probably screwing little boys. You know, gee he you know, the next story will be that you were near schools, stalking kids. Like that’s how people are Willy. Take ownership of the mistakes you’ve made, but don’t take ownership of everyone else’s horrible thoughts. Willy, people are gonna be looking for answers and if you don’t give them the answers they’re gonna make up a thousand stories. I’m telling you, mark my words. (ADAM LEANS FORWARD) You know, I know that you’ve had some bad experiences when you were, when you were young. I know Dana talked about when you were really young about your pet calf, you know, and the shock and the horror when, when you know, you went into the barn and there was your pet stung up with it’s throat cut. Do you remember that, telling her that story.
Robert PICKTON: Um, hum.
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: Okay, those, those hurt us when we’re kids alright. That hurts us, that ah, hurts us as to why would our dad do that to us. He knew what that calf meant to you. Would I be right in thinking that your dad, sometimes farmers can be very sort of cold about livestock and stuff. If you had a son, would you just go and kill his favourite calf? Would you Willy? (PAUSE - 10 SECONDS) I’m just asking a question Willy, would you do that?
Robert PICKTON: I don’t know what to say.
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: Do you think you would? Think back to how that made you feel, would you want to make your son feel that way. Picture yourself back there, standing in that barn, looking at your calf, hanging there, dead and imagine, think back to how that felt inside here. What that little boy Robert PICKTON felt, you were what, five years old? Can you still, you still remember it? Standing there, I hope my calf hasn’t gone back to the barn mom. You know, tell me he hasn’t gone to the barn. And as you walk down there, I can remember what it’s like to be that age. Your heart pounding in your chest, scared to go look, scared of what you might see. Do you remember that feeling Willy? And you opened the door, I’ll bet you can put yourself right back there. And there, there he is, did that calf have a name? You’re got an excellent memory, I know that, do you remember what the name of that calf was? (PICKTON SHAKES HEAD “NO”) No. Or you don’t want to tell me. (PICKTON SHAKES HEAD “NO”) Willy our lives are made up of things that change and alter us. Okay, we think we’re heading in one direction and other things happen okay. When you were young you know, we start to get interested in sex okay. You know, you never got involved with girls, whether you were shy, whether the fact that the farm you know ah, you know working farm kids you know, sometimes they go to school and ah, you know, we still smell of the farm. I grew up in the prairies I know about farms okay. And people laugh at us, did they laugh at you Willy? Did you feel separate from them? Yeah, ...
Robert PICKTON: I don’t know, not really.
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: Different.
Robert PICKTON: Uh, uh.
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: No.
Robert PICKTON: Just work.
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: Yeah, work. You worked on the farm, but did you hang out with other kids?
Robert PICKTON: No.
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: No. And you know what, we both know that we all need to belong, Willy, that’s why you paid these girls to come out and spend time with you, even if you weren’t gonna have sex with them, we need to belong, don’t we? We’re not islands Willy. Willy, I don’t know you, I don’t know what, what’s inside your head okay, but I know that you need people, I know you need people, we all do. And I don’t believe that right into the core of your being you are as much of a monster as people are gonna portray you to be. Because if you were, you would have killed or hurt some of these other good people who are out there. You live in Port Coquitlam, there’s schools near by alright. I just finished talking to a guy who was dragging women into a van and raping them alright and he was caught at a Coquitlam schoolyard, planning the next attack on a little girl. Willy are you the same kind of guy as that? Have you ever hurt anybody like that? Okay, those are the things that you can talk about, Willy I talked to a guy years ago who killed his two little babies, killed his wife and lit a fire to burn his five year old son to death because he wanted to have sex with another woman. Cause he was bored. Willy are you like that? Would you kill your family, do you see what I mean? So Willy, the mistakes that you made alright, they’re, they’re driven by certain things. They’re driven I think by anger, and stuff that’s happened with you. But you’re not at a school yard Willy are you, you’re not trying to grab little girls off the street. There’s absolutely no indication you’ve ever done anything like that and if you tell me that you haven’t I will believe you. Can you look me in the eye and tell me that Don, I have never done anything like that?
Robert PICKTON: I haven’t done anything like that.
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: Can I believe you when you say that? Is that true Willy that you’ve never done anything like that, have you ever hurt any kids ever? You promise me. (PICKTON NODS YES). Okay. There’s reasons then that this happened, do you understand, do you see what I mean? Because if you were just a monster, I’m not a serial killer expert, I’m not even sure how I got involved in this file, alright. I’m ah, fairly experienced major crime investigator but I don’t claim to understand the inner workings of what demons drive us Willy, to make mistakes, the kind that you’ve made. Do you, do you understand that? I’m not trying to pass myself off as an expert but I know that there are serial killers who would have been grabbing and killing little girls and little boys at the opportunity. You can’t tell me you, you haven’t driven past kids that you could have grabbed over the last ten years, and, and never thought of it, or let me, can I ask you another question Willy please, and be honest with me. Can you look me in the eye and I’m asking you...
Robert PICKTON: Yeah. (TAKES A DRINK)
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: Have you ever even fantasized about grabbing any kids or anything like that. Like were the kids in Port Coquitlam or anything in danger from you? (PICKTON SHAKES HEAD “NO”) Is that true.
Robert PICKTON: Yeah.
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: Okay, thank you then. (SHAKE HANDS) Alright I, I raised my family in Port Coquitlam and I, I want to believe that all right, is that fair.
Robert PICKTON: Um,hum.
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: Do you understand why, we as parents, as a community, want to try and understand this thing Willy? Cause you, you’ve done good and yet you’ve done horrible, horrible things, do you understand? And we just want to understand. Nobody wants to make you some monster that you’re not but people want to understand. They want to understand how can Willy PICKTON be good to kids, help them with horses, help them do stuff, be nice to your nieces and be well thought of and yet there’s this dark side here. You could help people understand that. Do you understand, do you see that? And in helping us to understand Willy, you want to know what’s, what’s in it for you to tell the truth, really, besides making sure that, that Lynn doesn’t get to laugh at you again. When we understand why things happen do you, do you remember ah, I don’t know it you followed it but there was a young girl grabbed in Maple Ridge, and murdered about a year ago, alright. I think her name either her’s or his was TROTT, he was the, he was the guy that ah, had Fetal Alcohol Syndrome in other words he was somewhat, brain damaged. That was a horrible crime a little girl was taken away and she was sexually assaulted and murdered. But when people were able to understand what was happening with that person, why they made that mistake, then they focused instead of anger against him, at how society, how we had failed that person, alright. Cause that’s what people are like Willy if you give them a chance to understand, all right, they’re willing to hold out their hand to you. Willy that’s important to you, alright. Because you are gonna continue on in life, Billy said to you that you’re a survivor and you are strong okay, do you understand that Willy? (ADAM LEANS BACK) When those two boars started fighting, do you remember that ?
Robert PICKTON: Um, hum.
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: And you jumped in the middle, why did you jump in the middle of them?
Robert PICKTON: To break them up.
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: Yeah, I’ve never seen boars ah, fighting, is it a frightening thing?
Robert PICKTON: Yeah, they kill each other.
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: Yeah, I’ve seen dogs fighting, have you ever seen two dogs, good size dogs fighting?
Robert PICKTON: Yeah.
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: It’s not something you want to get in the middle of is it?
Robert PICKTON: Sometimes you have to do what you have to do.
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: Exactly. But you know what I know Willy, is that knowing the right thing to do, in this case trying to stop the boars from killing each other, and having the courage to do it, is what being a man is all about. You were taught that weren’t you and it’s part of you. You saw what you had to do and you did it and you got hurt because of doing the right thing. Agreed alright. I know that, alright, I wasn’t always somebody who just pushed paper and watched other people do real police work alright. There was time when I was on the street and I would get involved in things and I would do the right thing, even though it was dangerous, alright. That’s a little hard for the younger people to believe that I actually did that, but that is true. It’s the same thing Willy alright. You have that in you, the ability to do the right thing but what’s happening here is you’re weighing, alright, your situation and I don’t blame you for that. But I’m here to tell you that whether or not you say a word, this thing is over for you. But truly your future, how you’re viewed in prison, how you’re viewed, how your family are viewed, whether or not Dave is under suspicion. You know right now, whether Dave took any part in this stuff, alright. You know right now whether he’s involved. If he’s involved Willy...
Robert PICKTON: No he’s not.
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: Well only by you telling the truth can you clear the air. (PICKTON TAKES DRINK) Now Willy if you tell the truth, people will believe you. You know what I did for years, I was a polygraph examiner, do you know what that is, a lie detector test. Have you ever heard of that? (PICKTON SHAKES HEAD “NO”) Lie detector tells whether you’re telling the truth or not. That’s what I did, I became an expert at telling when people were telling the truth or not, for awhile, probably forgotten all that now, but I used to be pretty good at it. Willy, when you tell the truth, when someone looks in your eyes and tells you the truth, there’s a ring to it, there’s a believability to it, alright. Now Willy I watched you when you denied being involved in these murders, and there’s no ring of truth to it. Alright. I, I need you to know that and I know you’re not telling the truth. (ADAM LEANS FORWARD) But I can tell you that if you do tell the truth alright, I’ll know it, if there’s things you just can’t bring yourself to tell right now, do you understand that that’s okay. Willy, sometimes we get into things bit by bit and we end up doing things that we never want anyone to see the light of day, we never you know, be it the allegations that you had sex with some of these girls when they were dead.
Robert PICKTON: That’s not true.
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: But if you don’t tell the truth about it, if you don’t help us to understand the whole picture, every horrible thing in the world will be said about you. Do you understand Willy? Everybody who wants to be mean, everybody who wants to, to, to laugh at you and ridicule you and make you a horrible, horrible creature is gonna win if you choose not to tell the truth. You know, the psychologists, some of them are saying this is all about Willy PICKTON torturing these women, that it, that you wanted, and you probably tortured them and enjoyed their screams and their agony as, as you killed them over who knows how long a period of time. See Willy some, some serial killers have done that. Willy if you’ve done it, you’ve done it okay, do you understand, but if it’s not like that, okay, tell the truth. If it’s something that progressed it got out of control, if it was you know, you’re driven to it, do you know who RIDGEWAY is, Gary RIDGEWAY? (PICKTON SHAKES HEAD) Gary RIDGEWAY is the Green River killer, alright. Green River murderer is the guy who’s killed ah, all the hookers down in Seattle. He may be the only person in North America who’s killed more women than you. Okay, it’s right now, we don’t know who’s killed more, whether it’s you, or whether it’s him. He killed about forty-two it looks like.
Robert PICKTON: (LAUGHING) (SHAKING HEAD “NO”)
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: Well Willy I don’t know. I don’t have a crystal ball Willy, I don’t (19:30) know whether you’ve been killing for, for fifteen years, for ten years. Why are you laughing?
Robert PICKTON: Just the way you said it there. Fuck that’s a lot of people.
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: Well it, but Willy you’ve killed a lot of people, like let me ask you a question? Alright without telling me the number, ...
Robert PICKTON: What’s that?
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: You know, do you, do you know how many it is? Just, just take your time and think about it, do you know the number or, or is it just started to just you don’t know anymore?
Robert PICKTON: I don’t know. I don’t know.
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: I’ve run this investigation for a year, when we finally finish, if you were to tell me the truth, can I close down my investigation or are there gonna be girls here that I’m gonna have to look for some other person who’s, who’s taken their lives.
Robert PICKTON: What’s that?
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: I’ve run the investigation for a year, right. My question of you is, when you decide to tell the truth, can I close my investigation or is there gonna be, is there gonna be like you know, a section of this that I’m gonna have to look for someone else who’s done it or is it, is it all you? I know it’s you for that last while, alright, cause I’m telling you it, the evidence is just pouring in, stacking in. Do I need to look for somebody else for the older ones. (PICKTON NODS HEAD “YES”) Yeah, okay. Alright. Willy had anyone ever helped you do it? Any of these guys that are talking about you, are they more involved in this than ah, than their telling us?
Robert PICKTON: I shouldn’t be talking without a lawyer present (INDECIPHERABLE).
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: No, and you don’t have to. But I appreciate, I appreciate what you’ve given me so far and I, I want to thank you for that. Do you know a guy named VICKERS? He’s a Hell’s Angel. He knows, he knows you guys. Is he involved in this?
Robert PICKTON: (SHRUGS) I don’t know.
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: Or, or you don’t want to say.
Robert PICKTON: I don’t know, but there is so many people that are involved in this it’s way over. Way over.
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: Let me ask you this question Willy. Right now we’re lookin’ at, at you and probably maybe three of the girls getting you, bringing the prostitutes out to you. Okay. Are there other people, is this bigger than what we think?
Robert PICKTON: I don’t know.
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: Well we know, we know that Lisa brought girls out to you. Right. We know Dinah’s brought...
Robert PICKTON: Lisa?
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: Yeah, ELLINGSON, isn’t it.
Robert PICKTON: Lynn.
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: Lynn, I’m sorry, I’m getting tired, I’ve worked a lot of hours.
Robert PICKTON: Lisa, Lisa no, not Lisa, Lisa...
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: Yeah, Lisa’s the other one. Lisa YELLS. Has she ever brought girls up to you? Has Nancy ever brought girls up to you? (SHAKES HEAD “NO”) Is that true?
Robert PICKTON: Nancy.
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: Yeah. Nancy PLASMAN.
Robert PICKTON: Nice person.
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: Okay, but do you understand Willy that the only way you can help your friends, take them out of suspicion is by, by telling the truth. Otherwise, everyone who’s close to you is under this incredible cloud. (PAUSE 24 SEC) Willy, let me ask you a question, I believe that you’re almost like two people. That there’s, there’s the Willy PICKTON who has friends, who’s kind to those friends, and who truly cares about them and doesn’t want to see them hurt by this. Is there, is there truth to that, my belief in that? Truly, please look at me and just you know, if I’m wrong just tell me. (PICKTON NODS) And there’s the other you alright, that somehow is keyed by rage that, that Willy either one of two things happens, either you just sort of snap and suddenly these things have happened or else you fantasize and, and you’re driven to it. Almost the same way those girls were driven to drug that you were driven to do these, that probably as little as I understand about that whole psychology Willy, I guess the way it would be like a drug. That my understanding is that you know, you would end up killing one of the girls and then that would be okay for awhile and then you would start to think about it, you’d start to plan your next one, and I’ve had people tell me that you know, they feel high, they, there’s a certain excitement that it gives to their lives, it gives some meaning to their lives and then they move closer and closer and they fantasize about how it will happen, how’s it gonna go and they fantasize about what the girl will do and then fantasize about what they’ll do. And then when it happens Willy, it’s never as good as the fantasy, it always falls short and they’re always disappointed afterwards. And maybe Willy, I don’t know but maybe even feel bad. I don’t know if that’s true and, and I don’t know maybe even say to themselves I’m not gonna do this anymore. Maybe even try and not do it, Willy. And if that were true those are important things for people to know. Important for you to put a human face on what happened but all of a sudden it starts building again. And it’s like I don’t know anything about drugs, I’ve never really been in drugs but I’ve had friends who are alcoholics Willy. And I’ve seen that battle, and I’ve seen them promise no, I’m not gonna touch the bottle right. Have you ever seen an alcoholic? Well these girls, you’ve seen them right, and they go no, I’m gonna quit drugs. No, I’m not gonna drink. And then what happens, it’s like they’re drawn to it. And it’s like a magnet, it’s pulling them, pulling them, pulling them Willy, and I think that, that that something in you, that demon we’ll call it, pulled and pulled, would get more and more and more and it start to occupy your thoughts and then it would start to happen. And I think that, I think and maybe I’m wrong but I think there’s maybe been times when you had these girls at your place, and you’ve thought no I’m not gonna hurt this one, I’m gonna let her go. And Willy I thank you for that. Alright, cause we have had girls who, who said I’ve been with Willy out there, and he didn’t hurt me, but those same girls also go but yeah, so and so went out there and didn’t come back. Willy we have so many people coming forward now. So many people. I really would like you to explain, I think it’s important, I think it’s important that you not be used by people anymore. Don’t let Lynn beat you again. Don’t let her blackmail you again. You told me you saved her life twice and she repaid you by betraying you, by using you, by taking your money, by laughing in your face. Don’t let her win again. (ADAM LEANS FORWARD) Do you understand Willy? Give people a chance to understand that there is some good in you, give them, let the people who are close to you understand. Did you let some, some women go Willy? Did you?
Robert PICKTON: What do you mean go?
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: Leave without hurting them?
Robert PICKTON: Oh yeah, I never hurt ‘em, I never hurt ‘em. (PICKTON SIGHS) I never hurt ‘em.
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: Can you answer one question and be truthful with me?
Robert PICKTON: What’s that? I don’t know if I can answer it or not.
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: Okay. Would you do this for me, if you can’t answer, just say Don I’m sorry I can’t answer that. That what you’ve the story so far that I’ve heard is that you killed these girls quite quickly. Willy did you keep them alive and torture them? (PAUSE - 12 SECONDS) Some of them or no.
Robert PICKTON: Well I shouldn’t answer that question because I’m not even in court yet.
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: This isn’t about court right now.
Robert PICKTON: I know.
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: It’s you know, obviously everything we say to each other has got to go to court but we’re past the point of whether or not you did this. (ADAM TOUCHES PICKTON’S LEFT ARM) But Willy, look at me (PICKTON LOOKS AT ADAM) please for a sec, the families need to kinda know and I’d like to know alright. (ADAM REMOVES HAND FROM PICKTON) Cause if you killed them quickly alright, then no matter what happened to them, it doesn’t matter does it. Once you’re gone, it doesn’t matter or if they were so drugged maybe that they didn’t you know, that they didn’t feel the pain. That’s important Willy cause it speaks of you, it speaks to your ability to hold your head up. Do you know what I mean, like you made your mistakes that you made do you understand. But now.
Robert PICKTON: I made my own grave.
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: Yeah. Yeah, but did you...
Robert PICKTON: Now I’m gonna sleep in it.
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: Yeah, you did.
Robert PICKTON: For the rest of my life.
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: I know. But I’d like to be able to look at the, at the brothers and sisters and mothers and fathers of these women and if it’s the truth let them know that it’s not a situation where you kept them chained up and, and tortured them and, and, and reveled in their scream that, that you did find a way of either choking them quickly and, and, and painlessly and that they and that they, they went fast. Cause that’s important to them. Cause it speaks to you, alright. (PICKTON TAKES A DRINK) Did they go quickly Willy? I know you gave them drugs, I know you bought lots of drugs for people before they went out there, did you allow them to shoot up and ...
Robert PICKTON: I give ‘em money for drugs or whatever but the problem is I mean, whatever they do with the money it was up to them.
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: Yeah. But is this gonna ultimately when, when everything is out in the open are we gonna be looking at stories of days of torture and, and, and cutting their fingers off, and, and cutting their vagina’s out their bodies while they’re still alive and, is it gonna be that sort of a thing Willy? (SHAKES HEAD “NO”) Is it just gonna be some horrible, horrible thing that we can never understand ‘til, ‘til we die? Or is it gonna be just a sort of a simple thing that you know, that you would get them down, you would handcuff them you know, just sort of quietly choke them unconscious and, and that would be the end. Something we can understand Willy. That’s important, that’s gonna be important for Dave to know, it’s gonna be important for Nancy to know, it’s gonna be important for your sister to know. I don’t know if you believe in God, or if you believe that your mother’s up there watching you or your father. Those things are important. It’s important for these people to know. Do you understand Willy? (ADAM’S PAGER GOES OFF) only you can tell me how much these people suffered, whether it was fairly quick. Did any of them stay alive for days? Hours?
Robert PICKTON: I don’t know. I mean we, we going over our heads here.
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: Pardon?
Robert PICKTON: Going over our heads here.
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: Why do you say that Willy?
Robert PICKTON: Cause I’m not supposed to talk about it.
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: Do you know what I’ve learned though? Do you want to know something? A member asked me awhile ago, how many, how many people I had talked to that, that had taken a human’s life? I don’t remember anymore. Okay. In all those people that I’ve talked to Willy, there’s only been a few that really are cruel, right to the core. Cruel, hideous people. Okay. My sense of you is that that is not you and you’ve, you’ve basically told me that you do have feelings for people, alright. So then I know yes, that you care about yourself you know, we all do, do you understand, like understand that Willy? Does that make sense to you? But Willy you need to understand that it’s over, and I think you do, alright. But you have to live, you’ve not gonna, you’re not just gonna expire, you’ve not gonna lay down and, and in your cell and just die, right? So you are gonna continue and the life that you lead and your relationship with people, is gonna be surrounded by what you do here and now. Alright. Do you need to use the washroom or anything? (PICKTON SHAKES HEAD) Man you are quite the guy. Can I get you anything to eat or drink?
Robert PICKTON: I don’t want to eat now.
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: Can’t eat?
Robert PICKTON: I don’t deserve to eat.
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: When I talk to these families how bad is this gonna be Willy? Give me that, how bad is it gonna be?
Robert PICKTON: How bad is what gonna be?
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: How bad is their deaths, are they quick, are they, are they tortured or slow, are you a sadist, do you know what that means? (PICKTON SHAKES HEAD “NO”) Can we, can, can we be open with each other for just a minute? Willy, what are you good at?
Robert PICKTON: Whatever.
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: What are you the best at, what do you do, we all like to be good at something or, or there’s things we pride ourselves in, and I’ve read the files on you, I’ve read what my investigators say, I’ve read what people say alright. I’ve, I’ve, I’ve heard about your statement that you gave once to ah, Cst. CATER and I have some thoughts but I just, I want, I want to ask you that question, what are you good at, what do you take pride in? Tell me that.
Robert PICKTON: Anything.
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: Like what, give me a for instance.
Robert PICKTON: Whatever I do.
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: Give me a for instance.
Robert PICKTON: Building.
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: Okay, carry that on.
Robert PICKTON: Doing this, doing that.
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: Um, hum. Willy, it struck me, correct me if I’m wrong, I think it was in the statement to John CATER a long time ago, that he asked you...
Robert PICKTON: Who’s he?
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: He’s a young policeman that I work with now. Ah, he took a statement from you in regards to ah, something, but I think he asked you what the best day of your life was, remember that? Ever been asked that question? If I asked you that question what’s the best day of your life, what can you remember, what would you say it was?
Robert PICKTON: Don’t know.
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: Do you remember answering him that it was a day that you, you ah, slaughtered forty, fifty pigs. That you started at seven in the morning and you slaughtered right through ‘til one, two in the morning, do you remember that day?
Robert PICKTON: Yeah, that was, that was a good day at work, but that’s not the best day.
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: Oh, okay. So that was, you answered it that way. It was the best day at work.
Robert PICKTON: I mean, it was, a lot of people were there.
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: Okay Willy, what everyone says alright, one of the things they say about you, is that you know the pig business. Is that true?
Robert PICKTON: Um, hum.
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: That you are, you are good at slaughtering, you take pride in your work, you do it well...
Robert PICKTON: And do it clean.
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: And you enjoy it.
Robert PICKTON: I do it clean.
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: But look at me for a second Willy, you enjoy it.
Robert PICKTON: I don’t know if I enjoy it or not I just did it for a job.
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: You know Willy, I think there’s a part of you that likes killing.
Robert PICKTON: Hum?
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: A part of you likes killing, well you wouldn’t have done what you did if you didn’t like it. And I think that somehow you’ve crossed the line between killing pigs and killing women. That’s a fact. I mean what we’re talking about here is just how that line got crossed Willy (PAUSE - 10 SECONDS) See Willy I’m not a psychologist, I’m not even a particularly bright guy, but somehow killing and sex and loneliness and anger against these women and, and I think that, that they gave you Hep ‘C’ and one stabbed you, do you see, somehow all of that has got twisted up into this just big giant ball, and that has become a part of you. Okay. And I don’t know, I am not a shrink. I don’t know, but I’m just wondering if there’s anyway that working together alright, we could unravel some of those things to try and understand them Willy. Okay. Because you know what, I am not a bad guy, and I think you know that. I sense it from you. And while you’ve done some horrible, horrible things Willy, part of me sees that you’re not a bad guy, do you understand that? And two people, if they try and deal with each other fairly and honestly, and that’s all I’m asking from you, can do a lot, can do wonders. Do you see what I mean? And really Willy I’d just like to understand how the anger, the killing, the bad things that happened in your childhood, how you became different, how you came to see yourself as different. I think you are intelligent, I know that and I’m sure that you’ve wondered and I’m willing to bet money, that you’ve thought about the unfairness of it all. How unfair that you were trapped on the farm, that you could never leave that, that, that the one chance that you’ve talked about of having a, a life and a love and a relationship, that, that was cut off by your duties on that farm. And I think, correct me if I’m wrong but I think Dana even talks that the Will forced you to stay on the farm if you were to get any money, is that true? Did you tell her that? (PAUSE - 10 SECONDS) Did the Will force you to stay on the farm until you were forty-two or something, is that accurate?
Robert PICKTON: You guys know more about me than you do, than I do. (TAKES A DRINK)
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: Willy we haven’t even begun to learn about you, like you, when I talk about an avalanche coming down the hill, you haven’t even, I sat with the, the head of this investigation, what we did is it’s so big, there’s a hundred and thirty people working on it right now. Hundred and thirty of the best policemen in the province, well you know obviously we have good people throughout the province but some of the best and we’ve broken it into components. There’s about forty-five people that are on your farm right now, that are gonna go, be going through this. They’ve collected thousands and thousands of exhibits and, and have only just begun ...
Robert PICKTON: Exhibits of what?
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: Blood, hair, identification alright. You know how you were telling that story to everybody who would listen about finding this stuff in a cars and stuff, do you remember that, at the early stages? Do you remember, cause you were scared and you thought I’ll tell some stories Willy, that’s what you did.
Robert PICKTON: No.
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: Yes. How much do you want to bet?
Robert PICKTON: It’s true.
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: It’s true that you did find things in cars? (ADAM LEANS FORWARD) You did Willy but you didn’t, you didn’t find blood in cars and go and put it on the walls did you? Do you see what I mean? I mean you’re a logical, intelligent guy, I may find for some reason I may find this bottle in a car, right. And I may take it into my house and put it down. And the police could find that bottle in my house cause that’s what you were thinking with the inhaler. I found the inhaler in a car, that’s what you told everybody. And now you’re locked with that story, you can’t change that story. You’ve told too many people.
Robert PICKTON: It is.
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: And you’ve said gee, that’s a nice looking inhaler, I took it into my house.
Robert PICKTON: I took into my shop first.
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: Okay, and then I took it into my house and now the cops found it. But what you didn’t realize is that we found all the other things that show, that you didn’t find that inhaler in a car, because why didn’t you talk about the four other inhalers that are all used, they’re of no value. The fact that they’re layered in your garbage, the fact that there’s other material that’s in your house, the fact that there’s DNA, yours and hers linked together Willy, do you see what I mean?
Robert PICKTON: Layered? Where, where did you find, where is this at?
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: We have an article alright, that I’m not prepared to tell you what is it, that has got her DNA on it like that, her DNA.
Robert PICKTON: Um, hum.
S/Sgt. Don ADAM: And then it’s got your DNA together. Sereena ABOTSWAYS it’s yours and hers together and it’s not the inhaler. It’s not the inhaler. And Willy we’ve got her blood alright, in there, well Willy you didn’t get her blood from in a car and carry it and put it inside your place, do you understand? Do you understand like you know, we tell stories, I don’t blame you for making up these stories do you understand that, I don’t blame you for lying because you’re trying to get away and that’s a human thing, and I would too. When I was a young cop right, back in the days when I was in Coquitlam back in the early seventies, mid-seventies I guess, well probably later and I’d do something wrong cause when you know, we make mistakes in life don’t we Willy? And I’d do something wrong and I would get called in by my S/Sgt. and I’d be afraid right. What would I do? My first thing I want to do Willy is to lie, and make up a story not ‘cause I’m bad, because I’m scared and you’re scared. You don’t want to be caught for this Willy, I’m not naive I don’t think you had some secret wish to be stopped. Maybe you did, but only you can tell me that. You wanted to get away with it and you did a damn fine job. You completely stumped the police and basically made them look like fools, alright. And they’re gonna take a lot of heat for that Willy, for why they didn’t catch Willy PICKTON quicker. You led them on a merry chase for years. When you’re in prison, the other prisoners are gonna like you for that, cause you made the police look stupid. There you sat, right under their noses every few months killing a girl and they didn’t have a clue. Willy, it’s impressive. Like it’s impressive. You say to yourself I’m a simple pig farmer do you remember saying that? Well you’re not. What you’ve done is, is I mean it’s horrible alright, Willy you understand that, it’s horrible, but it’s impressive. You may well be the most successful serial killer in the North American Continent. You know right now whether you are or not. Cause if you’re up over fifty, you are. Now I wouldn’t bet against you being over fifty.