Robert Keppel switched on the tape recorder in a room at Florida State Prison on the afternoon of Friday, January 20, 1989. Ted Bundy was on what the prison called phase two death watch, with an execution date the following Tuesday, and Keppel, who had chased him as a King County detective in 1974 and was now chief criminal investigator for the Washington State Attorney General, had flown in. The first thing Bundy wanted settled was confidentiality, through Monday. The second was that there was not enough time. "I simply don't have enough time to tell you, or anybody else all that I, that I know and need to tell you, in the next two or three days," he says on the second page, and then spends most of the first session explaining why he should be given more of it.
Keppel does not argue with him about time. The first place they go is Issaquah, then Taylor Mountain. And in the course of two afternoons, on tape, Bundy tells him things nobody had heard from him before: that there were three sets of remains at the Issaquah site and he can describe it; that the girl whose name he will not say aloud in front of the guards, and writes on a piece of paper instead, is Georgann Hawkins, missing since June 1974; where her head was taken and buried, in yards, on a rocky hillside off a dirt road. He talks about driving up to the dump sites afterward to search the side roads himself when a newspaper reported someone missing, and about what turns up there that was not his. He talks about the Green River cases, which he had written to Keppel about from this prison five years earlier. And he talks, at length, about why anyone should want to understand the why.
The second session, on Sunday, January 22, runs to ninety pages. Bundy was executed shortly after seven in the morning on Tuesday, January 24. Keppel took the tapes home to Washington, and the typed transcripts went into the Attorney General's file and from there to the King County Archives, which is where this copy comes from. Everything Bundy says here he says with two days to live, to the one investigator he chose, as part of an attempt to trade information for time. That is the frame, and it does not come off.
What this is. A typed verbatim transcript of two tape-recorded interviews, in question-and-answer form with speaker initials at the head of every turn, 141 pages: session one on pages 2 to 51, session two on pages 52 to 141. The speakers are Bundy and Keppel, with sixteen short interruptions from a correctional officer and eighteen from an unidentified woman. William Hagmaier of the FBI's Behavioral Science Unit and Bundy's lawyer Diana Weiner are referred to but do not speak on the tape. It is not a confession in the legal sense, not sworn, and not an interview given for publication. It is a negotiation, conducted as an interview, and the reader should keep both halves of that in mind.
Who holds it. The record of a Washington state agency, the Attorney General's Office, held by the King County Archives, which digitized it and supplied the scan to a private requester, who deposited it in the Internet Archive under the item name ted-bundy-interview-transcripts with King County Archives named as creator. A public record, reproduced here as one. The Internet Archive is a copy host; the custodian is the King County Archives.
What has and has not been checked. The text is the scan's OCR layer, extracted directly from the PDF. Seven pages spread through the document were re-read independently by a second engine and agreed with the first on 91.4 percent of words, the disagreements being punctuation, spacing and single letters rather than different words; read it as a very good transcription of a typed original and check any single word against the page image before quoting it. The title page reads "STATEMENT OF TEO BUNDY", the scanner's O for D, and is described here rather than printed. The typescript spaces its apostrophes, "don ' t", and those have been closed; where the scan had welded two words together, "andI", "hada", "fora", they have been separated; the typescript's page numbers have been removed and a heading inserted where the second session begins. Nothing else has been corrected, and no spelling repair was run. The tapes themselves were not heard.
A caution on reading it. Bundy is bargaining. He says so himself, repeatedly, and Keppel says so back to him. Statements about what he will tell and when, about other states' attorneys general, about the value of his information to law enforcement and social scientists, are part of the bargaining and should be read as such. The specific facts he gives about Issaquah, Taylor Mountain and Georgann Hawkins are his statements and are printed as his statements; what investigators later made of them is not on this page.
TED BUNDY: What would I like to know?
ROBERT KEPPEL: Well, I don't know what you'd like to know. Are you aware this is being taped?
TED BUNDY: Yes. I'm aware.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Do you have any objection?
TED BUNDY: No. No, I don't have any objection.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Why don't you put it on "stop'' · Ok, the date is 1/20 of '89. Right?
GUARD: I got a message for you. Remind me to give it to you when you leave. It's a telephone call they want you to make after you leave here.
ROBERT KEPPEL: How do you expect us to proeed?
GUARD: Attorney General's Office, Idaho.
TED BUNDY: Ok, how do I expect us to proceed? Well, this is what I hope we can, together, work on.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ok.
TED BUNDY: You know. I think what I need to do is tell you what's going on for me in terms of this practical day-to- day stuff. I mean, hour-to-hour stuff, the pressures I'm under, limitations you might say. You can understand that, that, I'm sure, and appreciate, that this phase two death watch, it obviously puts us under some kind of constraints. But I think we can, we can get started.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ok.
TED BUNDY: What we need to, what I need to do is just, like I say, how to proceed. And I -- first thing I have on my list is to talk about the importance of, at this, at this stage, of, that we have an agreement of confidentiality.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Umm ha.
TED BUNDY: That I certaintly won't make any statements about this meeting, that Dianna won't, that none of us do until, you know, certainly we, we're much further down the road. Too much has been said already, you know.
ROBERT KEPPEL: I agree.
TED BUNDY: That's killing us.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Now, what kind of confidentiality, length of time are we talking about? Are you talking about to other local law enforcement agencies?
TED BUNDY: Well, we're talking about our meeting here today, ummm, let's say through Monday --
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ummm.
TED BUNDY: And that we have an understanding that any, any statements you make to the public, that any of us make to the public we will, umm, we will advise the other, the other party that we're going to make any kind of statements.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Sure. No problem with that.
TED BUNDY: Ok.
ROBERT KEPPEL: My policy to this point was I wasn't making any statements.
TED BUNDY: Nothing whatsoever. And you certainly have my word on it. And as you know I have not spoken to the press and do not, well, I'm not saying I don't intend to, but I'm not going to talk about this meeting. I don't know if I'm going to say anything or what I'm going to say. It probably depends a lot on what things look like Monday.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ok.
TED BUNDY: But I certainly would not disclose anything that you, that we had an understanding specifically that I was not to disclose.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ok.
TED BUNDY: Well, I'll go with what I have. I mean, I'm the chronic note-taker. Well, I'm looking for us to find a way that we can reach the point where I can start to talk about some things. Ok.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Umm ha.
TED BUNDY: Ok, my, my feeling is, and I want the reaction, your reaction and Bill's reaction to this, but it's my feeling, and it's, I think it's not unrealistic to say that I simply don't have enough time to tell you, or anybody else all that I, that I know and need to tell you, in the next two or three days, which is basically what we're looking at. I mean, I might as well give you right up front, you know, how I see this in terms of my participation. I mean, I'm, I'm at the point where, you know, you might say, I'm at the point, finally, where I see that I'm going to have to tell you and others everything that I know with regard to so-called unsolved cases. Ok. Now, you can look at it, look at it pessimistically or skeptically or whatever but the fact is I'm at that point and it's an uncomfortable position. I may have obviously waited too long, but I'm here and we're here. So we've got to work with what we've got.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ugh ha.
TED BUNDY: On the other hand, my position is for it to be of benefit, truly a benefit to you and law enforcement and social scientists, I've got to tell you the whole truth and nothing more and nothing less. Certainly nothing less. And Bill knows, Bill's familiar, you're familiar with the FBI studies on serial murder how important it is to get the antecedent behaviors and all that background stuff and put it all together in the context of hardcore data. And I think it's, what I'm after is a total understanding here. Now, I realize people are very skeptical of me and perhaps skeptical of my intentions. And they have good reason to be, I guess. It's, you know, you can look at me as a hypocrite at this point that I've waited so long, but the fact is better late than never. We're at the point where something can be done. And I understand also that I'm at a position where I can't call the shots and will, but I think the main stumbling block here is a lot of people, certainly maybe the most important person under these circumstances is Martinez, is not, does not believe I'm sincere. And, and perhaps one thing that might get things moving is to, I believe, is for me to give you, or to give some law enforcement officer a hardcore, tangible, unimpeachable revelation.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ahh ha.
TED BUNDY: Ok. Which I've never done before -- ok, to a law enforcement officer or to anyone else for that matter. I mean, I'm the only one in possession of this information and that's just the way it is. So, I think that demonstration alone would be evidence of my sincerity because it's a big step, and we'll talk about why if you want, why it's a big step for me, and then that goes in to why I've waited so long to talk about it. I mean, among other things you can imagine it's not easy to talk about. I had selfish motivations, legal motivations, family motivations, any number of things, but the fact of the matter is, umm, I think obviously it's now or never. Well, we either, we either convince the right people it's now or never and that we, to do a proper job for everybody, we're, I'm going to need some time. And I'm not saying you have to do it, but those people want to know about what I've done, I think should be interested, whether or not I have a chance to tell it. And I'm not talking about clemency. I'm not talking about weekend furloughs, you know, I'm not talking about anything unusual except to give usa reasonable period of time for law enforcement to have a systematic and deliberate attempt to know everything I, that I have to tell them. And make use of it. Both in specifically solving cases, finding remains, and in the more general aspects of the kinds of things that Bills unit works with, I mean, in the overall understanding to prevention, detection, that kind of stuff. But off the top, obviously, it's individual cases. I mean, that you, I'm sure, and other law enforcement people, are most interested in. Ok, I'm just rambling on here. Just break in any time because I know that, I'm sure that you, over the years, you have developed some sort of feelings of insite, to say the least, and some, maybe even some animosity you'd like to get off your chest. But, we need to talk very frankly here.
ROBERT KEPPEL: I think the most frank thing that I can tell you is that I'm here to listen.
TED BUNDY: Ok.
ROBERT KEPPEL: I have no idea -- I've got some ideas about scope, and frankly, only represent the state of Washington.
TED BUNDY: I know.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ok. What all these other people do or say I can't have any control over them. I have the support of all the law enforcement agencies in our state and I have the information. I look more as a facilitator to you. once before we talked in generalities about how this would come about --
TED BUNDY: Ammm ha.
ROBERT KEPPEL: In that I could provide some of the details back about things that may not be so prominent in your mind and you could probably fill in the other blanks that I don't have. But, I need to have an idea of scope in the state of Washington, time frame - - is it better to start backward or forward -- what is the best avenue to pursue. The most active things are probably what people are going to listen to, things that you have longed to have forgotten about are probably not going to be too much listening about. But, most of the people that were involved in those cases, frankly, are either dead themselves, retired, or crazy and they're not around anymore, really, to, you know, support what I'm doing or object to it. And so what all the feelings you may have heard or were communicated to you, it's mostly recent. All the law enforcement agencies that are expressing what they're expressing, there maybe anywhere from ten to twenty years old at the time those things were going on. And so, they're more or less reacting back to what they remember about at the time and there's not very many people that have been around fully active in the profession that long that really have a geninue stake. So you're really at an advantage, I think, that they want to know what you've got to say. And in a frank and candid manner, they are definitely no bull shit. And they say if I say that Ted is being honest with me and up front, or has been, or whatever it might be, they are going to believe me. They also are the kind that, you know, if they don't believe it's true then they will probably wish that you were dead as much as anybody else.
TED BUNDY: Ya, and they might wish that way anyway, but I think that the -- ya. I hear you. I'm following you there. I do know that, for instance, Mike Fisher is scheduled to come in tomorrow and he's, he's been around waiting in the wings, if you will.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Not from the state of Washington.
TED BUNDY: Umm? Oh, ya, excuse me, I know. Ok. All right. I don't want to get, I don't want to drag you into other things, but --
ROBERT KEPPEL: I need to know that when you talk about it, in briefing too that you're not going to exclude anybody on down the road because you talked to Keppel.
TED BUNDY: Well, exclude who? In Washington State?
ROBERT KEPPEL: Anywhere.
TED BUNDY: Oh, no. No, no. But we can't just get any -- everybody in here in the next two or three days.
ROBERT KEPPEL: I agree.
TED BUNDY: And so, you know, better than I, what a good and reliable interrogation consists of. And I think one time you told me you didn't want, when we ever had a chance to talk you didn't want it to end up like Henry Lucas. And believe me, it won't. But, which means that you will, you want to do a better job than the Texas State Rangers did. And so, I think that means -- to me, what that means, and this is what I guess what counts -- is to me that means that we go over things in great detail but not just the incident itself. Ultimately, whether it's to you or to somebody else, because basically it all began in Washington State, that is, that's where I was living, that's where I grew up as a kid --
ROBERT KEPPEL: Right.
TED BUNDY: And that's where I grew up as a young man and those kinds of imagies, impulses and behaviors which ultimately led to the violent behavior, you know, occurred, if you will, in Washington State, the kind of broad understanding that I'm looking for is going to come, you know, during those years I lived in Washington State. You know, unfortunately, I guess from your standpoint, it was Washington, basically Washington State where those first crimes, incidences, murders took place.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ahh ha.
TED BUNDY: But, you know, yes. I want -- I won't exclude anybody, but more importantly I want to make a graphic demonstration here, in some way, to show my seriousness to you. You can convey it to others in Washington or whoever might ask you confidentially what you think. We haven't had a lot of contact in the past. We wrote some and we meta couple of times and we talked generally. I never gave you -- but I don't think I ever promised you that I'd do something that I haven't done.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Never.
TED BUNDY: Now, I'm not trying to come off the honorable kind of guy, but I mean, this is where we are. I mean, agh, I've got to be able to convince you and others of my sincerity and my resolve.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Well, I'm the one too that can followup the details, information, whatever you have and make sure that these bodies are found or somebody searches or whatever the case might be, corroboration of what you have to say. And probably whatever, every little word that you say will be followed up on.
TED BUNDY: Ahh ha.
ROBERT KEPPEL: So, that's my guarantee to you that hearing what you have to say and going home and say, ya, he did it, ain't good enough. We've got to see if we can find evidence, if we can find bodies, if we can find information that corroborates everything you said, and we might even have to do a little bit of that in the next two and three days.
TED BUNDY: Well, I hear you. I hear you. Yes. Well, no, well, I mean, well, you're talking about, I think what you're saying, Bob, is that -- I hear you. You need information from me that, as they say in the papers, that only the police and perpetrator may have known. Is that what you're saying?
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ya. It doesn't do me any good to not have the information of only what you know.
TED BUNDY: Oh, ya. I - - Well, ya.
ROBERT KEPPEL: And I'm not so sure how much is left, frankly. You could probable enlighten me.
TED BUNDY: Well, it depends.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ya.
TED BUNDY: It depends on a lot of things. It depends on, you know, you've worked out there. You know what the crime scenes are. It depends on construction sites and highways and animals and all that stuff. But to be quite candid with you, there are a number, I'm sure, that are quite well in place.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Well, the most, the most recent ones probably are the best to start with in my mind, unless you have an objection - - the most recent cases.
TED BUNDY: In Washington.
ROBERT KEPPEL: In Washington.
TED BUNDY: Ya.
ROBERT KEPPEL: We have -- I've got all your traveling records. Of course, you probably know when you left too and came back, a couple times, but as far as bodies go that we have found, ok, as late as August of '74
TED BUNDY: Ummrn ha.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Is what we have that possibly could be associated with you. And do you agree with that date?
TED BUNDY: Agh, I think I know what you're talking about. Do I agree with that date? August of '74. Well, first of all, you're getting a little bit ahead of me here but I don't mind because I don't want to get picky with you about this although there's a lot of other stuff that I need to let you and Bill know about that's going on. But, let's just deal with that one, for example. I mean, I was talking to one of my advisors not long ago and there were saying the information you can give that will exclude you at some time may be just as much important as cause, you know, I'm linked with stuff that, that's not real.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Right. I agree.
TED BUNDY: And I'm mistaken -- not mistaken that August 1974 date refers to a young woman out of the southwestern part of the state who disappeared and was found on the Pass somewhere, her remains. I may be completely wrong on this.
ROBERT KEPPEL: What I'm talking about -- both, there were two skeletons found together in Clark County. August 2nd was the date that one of the girls was last seen.
TED BUNDY: Right. Ya, I remember. I'm familiar with that. I mean, I've heard of it.
ROBERT KEPPEL: You've heard of it?
TED BUNDY: Right. That's nothing to do with me.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Right. I, I had that feeling but they wanted me to ask anyway and at the time of your gas receipts, it shows you not going that way.
TED BUNDY: Ahh ha.
ROBERT KEPPEL: And you would have had to have gone down there during a certain time period to be eligible to have been the one who knows.
TED BUNDY: ahh ha.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Like, they have a good suspect in that case. There's definitely one that is marginal.
TED BUNDY: Ahh ha.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Technically, if you didn't use your gas card, you could be an eligible suspect.
TED BUNDY: Right. Ya. That's --
ROBERT KEPPEL: You headed to Salt Lake and it was rather obvious route that you commonly take and so it wasn't one where you could deviate and I fool the police in Vancouver - - then cutting back over.
TED BUNDY: Well,
ROBERT KEPPEL: There still was the fact there was a possibility.
TED BUNDY: Well, sure. Ya. I obviously -- the gas card, the infamous -- what was it? Standard Oil I believe. Ya, well, God bless them. The old paper trail. No, no, that's, that's nothing to do with me, you know. So that's, that's a step. That was easy.
ROBERT KEPPEL: I thought I'd start with the easy ones. This one will do.
TED BUNDY: Ok.
ROBERT KEPPEL: The more difficult ones however, the ones I know the most about, are the two that are missing on July 14. However, that particular dump site was located in September of '74 has more than just those two there. And what I would kind of like to do is take it by -- go from one dump site location to another, rather than try and do it by victim is by sight. It seems to be more of an orientation and there's more evidence and more information that you might be able to give me about who's there or what you can recall of them, trying to figure out what happened with whom. So, I would like to take it by site. Mainly, first was the Issaquah site cause that's the first one we found. And then the Taylor Mountain site is the second one we found. Do you agree with those two?
TED BUNDY: Well, you're taking it in that order?
ROBERT KEPPEL: Yes.
TED BUNDY: Why not?
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ya, ok.
TED BUNDY: You know, but sight, by chronology. All right. See, I -- as this converstation evolves, I think you'll have a better idea of where I'm at and what I'm trying to do. Maybe you think you do already. I will give you -- we can talk about and will talk about today some of that.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ahh ha.
TED BUNDY: Ok? Ahhh. There's, there's so much, you know. There's a lot going on there, obviously. A lot more that I would like to tell you than about dump sites.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ahh ha.
TED BUNDY: You know. Ummm. But, that's certainly one place, and very obvious place to begin and I have no problem with that. But I want to know from -- right now, what I want to know from you is what are you going -- what are you going to do with this, assuming I tell you it? I mean, not assuming, but what would you do with this today or tomorrow? I tell you what I know about Issaquah. Ok. What do you do?
ROBERT KEPPEL: What I do is that, number 1, it gives me an idea of how credible and frank you're going to be up front to me.
TED BUNDY: Ahh ha.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ok. 'Cause every law enforcement officer out there looks at me for, you know, is Bundy bullshitting us or not?
TED BUNDY: I hear you. I know.
ROBERT KEPPEL: You know the guys that follow me in here are going to be asking me. And I would just like to be able to say, "hey, he was just and as right as anybody.
TED BUNDY: I just don't -- you know, here's my concern is that we not - - I have no problem with you telling others about this. That's, that's probably part of the idea. But, what -- what I'm concerned is this stuff getting to the news media Bundy is telling everybody everything. At this point. I mean, today or tomorrow or Sunday. Too prematurely to start this again fueling the controversy which is already out of hand.
ROBERT KEPPEL: I am not saying anything about this.
TED BUNDY: Ok. All right. Well. Let's just do one here. I mean, let's start. Obviously we have to start somewhere. And I think it might, we might, as a long shot -- it's pretty long shot -- that you might be able to get something out of it. At least some of that so called tangible evidence that might be of some value not only to you but to others. And maybe a bit of information, even if you don't find anything else, that might be of some value to families.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ahh ha.
TED BUNDY: Ok. So we'll do -- I understand that at the Issaquah site - - which I could describe to you, will desribe to you if you want, there were three, remains of three individuals found, two identified and one not, cause of the, the, so few, the kinds of remains that were found were so few and unidentifiable. Ok?
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ahh ha.
TED BUNDY: What do you want? Where this --
ROBERT KEPPEL: I'd like to know --
TED BUNDY: Description of the site first? How to get there. I mean, you just don't, you just don't make this up. Right?
ROBERT KEPPEL: I want to know what the site is.
TED BUNDY: Ya. Well, the old Highway 90, I understand which is no longer there, I mean, not like it used to be. It's a -- but at that time when you were corning up from Issaquah you went froma basically a freeway, you rose up out of Issaquah into the foothills and you rounded a bend and it turned into the old 90 off of the freeway. And about a mile and a half, two miles beyond that bend - - this is 20-year-old, 15-year-old stuff Bill, Bob, so be mindful or it. This is not divided highway at that time, so you could turn clear across the highway. You could make a left hand turn going East. You could turn clear across the highway on the risk of getting a ticket, I suppose, and go North across the highway and turn across unto any side road. So if you drove North, if I was to drive North up and going East on 90, about mile, let's say more or less up that stretch of road there's a, a kind of a, used to be, a -- is it called an access road? Not an access road. That's not the word I'm looking for. It's a side road, small dirt side road. You would turn left going East. You would enter the side road, go across the ravine or over a ravine that was between the side road and the highway, then turn, sort of go left again and go in back down toward Issaquah on the side road, pass underneath some, at the time, utility or power transmission lines were there -- creek, that was a creek down in the ravine between 90 and the side road, this little dirt side road. Maybe half a mile, quarter of a mile down this little side road if you turn, if you kept on following it all the way down it would join 90 again but if you turned just about the time it reached 90 again you could -- there's another little dirt road that went up the hill, across some railroad tracks, wound up the side of the hill. Just on the other side of the railroad tracks about 20 yards up there's a little grassy are a. And so, and you know, some scrub growth. Old alders and what-have-you. A little path that ran parallel to the railroad tracks and then up into the woods, running sort of West. The dirt road went past this grassy are a I just mentioned and went up the hill maybe, maybe it went up half a mile. It wort of meandered up the side of the hill, hilly are a. Also in the are a, maybe fifty yards to the East, down into another ravine, was an old abandoned cabin. Ring a bell? Think. Well, so. Let's see.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Where should we have found the bodies?
TED BUNDY: Oh, well, lord knows where, but the little creatures up there did. The animals would have done. But I think - - well, let's, let me start with one.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ok.
TED BUNDY: Let me start this way. The unidentified remains -- gee, this is where I'm a little bit -- the presence of the officers down here is a little bit unnerving. Some of it, some of this stuff I don't mind talking about because they wouldn't know from Adam. But names, I can write it down. I can whisper it to you or whatever. I just don't want the police getting any kind of names at this point. Ya. Ya. And then I'll just write the name down for you. All right? Ok. Did you see that? This is - - the name that I just wrote down was Georgann Hawkins. Ummm. Up that dirt road, beyond the grassy are a. I'll try to trace it here on a piece of paper. How about that? That might help a little. I'm working from some pretty old memories. Well. Let's do it this way. Here's the grassy are a. Here's the road coming up -- this, trees. To the North, Northwest of this grassy are a -- Ok. Oh, ya, great. Let me try to orient myself here. Gees.
ROBERT KEPPEL: The only reason we have this picture is there was a big suit over this property going on and they took this picture on March 20, '74.
TED BUNDY: Ya.
ROBERT KEPPEL: It's just overheads.
TED BUNDY: Is it still relatively undisturbed?
ROBERT KEPPEL: Yup. That's March -- well, no. About right here the railroad track is gone and the freeway, right about where the railroad track is.
TED BUNDY: In their construction how, did they disturb up the hillside much?
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ya. Of course, there's some of that hillside left.
TED BUNDY: Well, I'm trying to find. I mean, let me try to pinpoint here some -- it's a little bit harder, you know, not having seen it -- I think what I'm talking to you about is that -- well, it's hard to pinpoint it like I need to do. I could show you what I mean by that are a, I think.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Right in here?
TED BUNDY: Ya. Now, up. God. You stop when I tell you. Go up the road. Keep going. Right about there, more or less, in and about 10 yards.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Now, was that a flat are a or was--?
TED BUNDY: No. It's rocky, very hilly.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ok. Cause as you go up into about this are a, come up the hill, where you could drive a car and get off the road -- you remember where that was?
TED BUNDY: I don't know cause I, I -- see, back to the grassy are a. I parked there and walked up.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Parked there and walked up.
TED BUNDY: I never -- I didn't drive. So you see, I don't know if you went up that far.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ya, I did.
TED BUNDY: But if --
ROBERT KEPPEL: Oh, ya, we were two miles --
TED BUNDY: Ok. Well. In that location that I just described, I don't know what it's like today, but you should find some more that, of -- we can get into details as to why --
ROBERT KEPPEL: Why that are a?
TED BUNDY: Ya. But here, this is where I get a little bit antsy, not about you but it's just being overheard. There's some of this stuff that gets pretty tough. I can write it down, whisper it. I have no problem with that. It's just that I'm -- I have to draw the line somewhere. With being overheard. At this point.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Why don't you pull this mike closer to your part, are a and try that.
TED BUNDY: Ya. Ok.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Cause it will pick you up ok.
TED BUNDY: All right. Do you have a meter on this? Isa meter running on it?
ROBERT KEPPEL: No.
TED BUNDY: You can't tell where we are on the tape?
ROBERT KEPPEL: Well, I can tell 'cause I can see. I can see where the tape is.
TED BUNDY: Ya. All right. Oh, ya. Let's try something else first. Ok?
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ok, it's running now. That's what I'm saying. If you move that over closer to you, your --
TED BUNDY: Ya. I will when I'm -- once --
ROBERT KEPPEL: It doesn't matter whether you push it or not.
TED BUNDY: But once I get my -- I've got to get my elbow up here to be able to write to you first. You could read any of this?
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ummm.
TED BUNDY: Well, if you can't, Dianna can, I think.
ROBERT KEPPEL: What you might try is whispering it and, you know, I think the tape will pick it up.
TED BUNDY: To you? Through here.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ya. At the same time write it.
TED BUNDY: Can you hear that?
ROBERT KEPPEL: I can hear it, ya.
TED BUNDY: Ok. I just wrote, I just said that the Hawkins girl's head was severed and taken up the road about twenty-five to fifty yards and buried in a location about ten yards west of the road on a rocky hillside. Did you hear that?
ROBERT KEPPEL: Umm ha. Ya.
TED BUNDY: Ugh?
ROBERT KEPPEL: Where is the rest of her at?
TED BUNDY: Down.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Down the are a?
TED BUNDY: Ya. Where the others were.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ok. All right.
TED BUNDY: I give you that because -- I mean, we ta-- I felt that it might be worthwhile to start there because, one, that hadn't been discovered before.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Right.
TED BUNDY: Ok. That was more or less a question mark, agh, to a point. You know, we all know what the suspicions were, but basically -- and so those people, the, you know, among other things, the family there might be able to -- I don't know if you still even have those separate, unidentified remains. But in any case, I think that was a good place to start.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ok. From that point, was there damage to those remains? What instrument did you use?
TED BUNDY: Who?
ROBERT KEPPEL: Hawkins.
TED BUNDY: Ya. But not anything you would have found that I know of. If you'd found you'd have found it probably, probably you'd have found damage to the head.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Right.
TED BUNDY: The jaw in particular probably broken. But if you'd found that you'd have known who it was. But, anyway, I don't know -- is there any reason you asked me that question?
ROBERT KEPPEL: What I wondered -- agh, were similar things done to Ott and Naslund?
TED BUNDY: We're getting a little bit ahead of ourselves but I will say this much. No. Well, wait a minute. Now that's a good question. You know. Agh, not similar things. Not exactly. I don't want to beg the question, but it's different. Certainly not as extensive I would imagine, in those two instances as opposed to the Hawkins girl.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ok, what weapons did you use on the Hawkins girl?
TED BUNDY: [Writing)
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ok.
TED BUNDY: Ya. This is it. That and
ROBERT KEPPEL: Can you say that word to me?
TED BUNDY: Yes.
ROBERT KEPPEL: How was that done?
TED BUNDY: Well, it -- we can go through it, step-by-step. So, a couple days later.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ok. Why don't we take Hawkins and go through it step by step.
TED BUNDY: Ok. Again, I wasn't specifically prepared to talk about this today, so I'm, I know I'm going to --
ROBERT KEPPEL: Give me an idea.
TED BUNDY: I'm just going to give you whatever comes to mind and I'm sure that, you know, it's not everything.
ROBERT KEPPEL: We -- to figure out, you know, the elements of Hawkins, then we can get on to the others. I just want to hear, specifically, the events that happened with the Hawkins girl. The facts I have are basically what's in the newspaper.
TED BUNDY: Ya.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Missing from one location. Never found.
TED BUNDY: Umm ha.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Tell me about how she was taken, time and events, what were the circumstances at the time, how you got out there, what was the time period inbetween, events, incidents.
TED BUNDY: Ok. Let me give it a moments reflection here. Ya. I'll talk real low to you. You can still hear me? Can you hear me Bill? You can't?
TED BUNDY: Ok, ya, well, ya. I, ok. Ya.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Pull the recorder over a little.
TED BUNDY: Ya. Trying -- I don't even -- I can't remember what day, I can't remember what night of the week it was. Can you hear me Dianna? Thursday night I believe. I don't know. 11 to 12. Probably closer to 12 o'clock on a warm, Seattle, May night. I think it was clear. The weather had been fairly good. I was -- at about midnight that day -- in the alleyway, behind, like, I may have my streets wrong here, but in an alleyway -- did you hear that?
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ahhh ha.
TED BUNDY: Behind, agh, this is near the sorority and fraternity houses that would have been 45th, 46th, 47, 47, somewhere in there, in back of the houses across the alley and across the other side of the block there was the Congregational Church, I believe. And some parking lots in back of the sorority and fraternity houses. I was moving up the alley, using a brief case and some crutches and the young woman walked down. I saw her round the North end of the block into the alley and stop for a moment and then keep on walking down the alley toward me. And about half way down the block I encountered her and asked her to help me carry the brief case, which she did and we walked back up the alley, across thes treet, turned right on sidewalk in front of, I think, the fraternity house on the corner there, rounded the corner to the left going North on 47th. Well, midway in the block there used to be a, you know, one of those parking lots they used to make out of burned down houses in that are a. The University would turn them into parking lots, instant parking lots. There was a parking lot there, dirt, dirt surface, no lights, and my car was parked there.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Why don't you just stop that tape.
TED BUNDY: We were to the car. All right, a, basically when we reached the car, what happened was I knocked her unconscious with the crowbar.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Where did you have that?
TED BUNDY: By the car.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Outside?
TED BUNDY: Outside, in back of the car.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Did she see it?
TED BUNDY: No, and then, there were some handcuffs there, along with the crowbar.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Along with what?
TED BUNDY: Crowbar.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Huh ha.
TED BUNDY: And I handcuffed her and put her in the driver's, I mean the passenger's side of the car and drove away.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Was she alive or dead then?
TED BUNDY: Oh, no. No, she was quite, not -- she was unconscious but she was very much alive.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Huh ha. Ok. What happened next?
TED BUNDY: Well, wait a minute, hold it.
GUARD: Excuse me, just --
TED BUNDY: Agh, we drove, what with that? Drove down the alley to 50th, I believe, NE 50th or, you know, the street going east and west, turn left. Went to the freeway. 5, is it? It's been a long time.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ahh ha.
TED BUNDY: Anyway, freeway. And then went South on the freeway to turn off on the floating bridge, the, that is, the old floating bridge, 90.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ahh ha.
TED BUNDY: She was conscious at this time. I mean, she had regained consciousness at this time, basically. Well, there's a lot of incidental things that I'm just not getting into, you know, not talking about, cause they are just incidental anyway. Went across the bridge, across Mercer Island, East, past Issaquah up the hill, down the road and up to the grassy are a.
ROBERT KEPPEL: How did you get across I-90?
TED BUNDY: When? You mean, off the
ROBERT KEPPEL: When you're driving Eastbound on I-90 --
TED BUNDY: Right.
ROBERT KEPPEL: There's a barricade in the middle of that road.
TED BUNDY: Not then there wasn't.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Huh?
TED BUNDY: Like I told you, you could turn, at that time, you could make a left-hand turn. Illegal as it may have been because of the double yellow line. I mean, you could -- I mean, that was a crazy -- I mean, talk about craziness. I mean, if there had been a State Patrolman there he'd probably arrested me. Right?
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ahh ha.
TED BUNDY: But, you know, nevertheless, at that time there was no divider running down the middle of that road, at that point. I didn't tell you -- I know. I mean, you're right. There would have been pretty darn hard to do it if there was. But all you had to do was just make an illegal left-hand turn all the way across -- well, the Westbound, the two Westbound lanes of 90 and right into that side road that ran parallel to 90.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ok. What happened after that?
TED BUNDY: Well, parked, took her out of the van and took the handcuffs off her and --
ROBERT KEPPEL: Took her out of what?
TED BUNDY: Took her out of the car.
ROBERT KEPPEL: And you're driving what?
TED BUNDY: A Volkswagen.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ok. You said van.
TED BUNDY: Did I say? Well, no I didn't -- I'm sorry if I, I didn't -- it wasn't a--
ROBERT KEPPEL: When you said something before that it was a van.
TED BUNDY: Well, ok. Well, it wasn't. It was a Volkswagen and agh, agh, took her out of the car. I think I said I took the handcuffs off. Maybe that sounded like "van.'' Anyway. Agh. And, gee, this is probably the hardest part. I don't know. I don't know, we're talking sort of abstract, not abstractly before, but, well, we're getting into some, we're getting right down to it. And I will talk about it. I hope you understand it's not something I find easy to talk about. And, after all this time. [Big sigh] One of the things that makes it a little bit, well, one of the things that makes it difficult is that, at this point she was quite lucid, talking about things, about some -- it's funny, it's not funny but it's odd the kinds of things people will say and under those circumstances. And she thought, she said that she thought that she had a Spanish test the next day and she thought that I had taken her to help tutor me for her Spanish test. It's kind of odd. Odd thing to say. Anyway. [Sigh] The long and short of it, I mean, I'm, I'll, I'm going to try and make this, get there by degrees. The long and short of it was that I again knocked her unconscious and strangled her and drug her into, about ten yards into the small grove of trees that was there.
ROBERT KEPPEL: What did you strangle her with?
TED BUNDY: Cord.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Cord?
TED BUNDY: An old, and old piece of, an old piece of rope.
ROBERT KEPPEL: This something you brought there with you?
TED BUNDY: Ya.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ya.
TED BUNDY: Something that was in the car.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ok. Then what happened?
TED BUNDY: Then I packed the car up. By this time it was almost dawn. It was just about dawn. The sun was coming up. And I went through my usual, I say usual routine. I went through this routine where I was just absolutely, I would go through this but on this particular morning I was just absolutely, again, just shocked, kind of scared to death, shocked, horrified about -- And I went down the road throwing everything that I'd had. The briefcase, out the window. Throwing the briefcase, the crutches, the rope, the clothes, just tossing them out the window. I just had, I guess was just, I was in a sheer state of panic. Just absolute horror, you know. It's like, at that point in time, consciousness of what has really happened. It's like you break out of a fever or something. I would, that is. And so, I would -- I drove North on 90, East on 90, some point throwing articles out the window as I went, articles of clothing. Shoes, etc.
ROBERT KEPPEL: When did you remove those?
TED BUNDY: What?
ROBERT KEPPEL: The shoes, clothing?
TED BUNDY: Well, after we got out of the car, initially.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ahh ha.
TED BUNDY: Well, I skipped over some stuff there and we'll have to get back to it sometime, but I don't feel, I just, it's just too hard for me to talk about it right now.
ROBERT KEPPEL: So, what Do you remember what clothes she was wearing that night?
TED BUNDY: Yup. Agh, a pair of white patten leather clogs, blue slacks, some kind of halter top of which she had a shirt tied in a knot.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ok. And where were these deposited?
TED BUNDY: Along the roadside.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ahh ha.
TED BUNDY: I mean, well, not right along 90. Agh, I went East to the infamous Taylor Mountain Road. What's, what highway is that?
ROBERT KEPPEL: 18.
TED BUNDY: 18. Turn right. Went South again and at some point, south of Taylor Mountain a lot of that stuff went out of the car. Down the, down embankments and what have you.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Embankments?
TED BUNDY: Ya.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Did you have to pull out to do it or?
TED BUNDY: No, ya. I would stop, pull over to the side of the road. At this time it was pretty light, and just tossed it out. Well, you see, I mean, I didn't - - there was sometimes I wou ld do that and sometimes I wouldn't. It would -- at this point in time I was so frantic, so panicked, so whatever, about what had happened that I would just had to get every reminder of that incident out of the car as quick as possible. Didn't want to take it home, didn't want to be around. I was just - -
ROBERT KEPPEL: Do you throw away some of your own stuff?
TED BUNDY: Oh, sure. Ya. I threw away the briefcase. And the crutches and all that stuff. And the crowbar, everything. The handcuffs, everything. I'd get mad at myself a few weeks later because I'd have to go out and buy another pair. I mean, it's not comical but that's what would happen.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ahh ha. Oh, now, just prior, now that you've had a while to think about Georgann Hawkins, is there something you can tell me about her that probably only you know and we know?
TED BUNDY: Well,
ROBERT KEPPEL: I mean, the Spanish test is pretty darn good if you ask me.
TED BUNDY: That's what she said. Unless she was halucinating. She said everybody called her George.
ROBERT KEPPEL: George?
TED BUNDY: That's what she said. Or how about that she used a safety pin to pin, because apparently her blue slacks were a bit too big.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ahh ha.
TED BUNDY: Or, that's about all I know.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ok.
TED BUNDY: I mean, I suppose there's, you know, I'm sure there are bits and pieces that will come back to me, but there wasn't a lot, obviously there wasn't a lot of converstation. But, that was -- that's what comes to mind.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ok. How about the other two sets of remains in that are a?
TED BUNDY: Well, (long silence)
ROBERT KEPPEL: Oh, one other thing.
TED BUNDY: Hmmm.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Oh, one other thing, about Georgann Hawkins. When did that happen?
TED BUNDY: When?
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ya.
TED BUNDY: Well, May of --
ROBERT KEPPEL: I know when she disappeared on June 12th.
TED BUNDY: Oh.
ROBERT KEPPEL: I know when but I want to know --
TED BUNDY: June?
ROBERT KEPPEL: about this, the severing, when that?
TED BUNDY: Oh, oh, oh, oh, that. Oh, excuse me. I was thinking of May. See. Agh, my memory. Oh, let's see. I'd say about three days later.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Three days later?
TED BUNDY: Just --
ROBERT KEPPEL: Had you gone back there before that date in time?
TED BUNDY: Ahh ha.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ahh ha.
TED BUNDY: The next day.
ROBERT KEPPEL: The next day. What did you do the next day?
TED BUNDY: Just went back to check out the site, make sure nothing had been left there. See, you know, the feeling is I reached the point and half expected that she might not even be there. That somehow I hadn't even killed her. If you will.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ahh.
TED BUNDY: So, ugh. So I went back -- Oh, ya. Removed things like the rope. I -- no, no. I had already done that. Can't remember if I found anything there or not. But I wanted to make sure. Oh, that's what it was. I -- talk about details coming back. I couldn't find one of the shoes, so I thought it was there. But it wasn't. So I went back. This is the next day. Got on my bicycle, rode back to that little parking lot. I knew there were police all over the place by that time, but I was kind of nervous because -- and I'll tell you why in a minute. Cause I'd left -- and my car had been parked there so somebody may have seen it. Now if something was found there it might connect me. So I went back to that parking lot and found both pierced, the pierced earring and the shoe laying in the parking lot at about 5:00 in the afternoon. So I surrupticiously gathered them up and rode off.
ROBERT KEPPEL: After the police had checked that are a?
TED BUNDY: Well, you can tell me. I'd seen them, I'd seen whole streams of them driving around all over the place but there were concentrating on places like the park, nearby park. I don't know if -- I be you -- they couldn't have looked in that parking lot and missed the patten, white patten leather clog and the two white pierced earrings. Hoops. Little hoops.
ROBERT KEPPEL: That was discovered by you the next day?
TED BUNDY: Ya. Around 5:00, 6:00.
ROBERT KEPPEL: 6:00 in the afternoon?
TED BUNDY: Ya.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ok. So you went back? Oh, excuse me. When you -- after you left that scene that night --
TED BUNDY: Ya.
ROBERT KEPPEL: And went toward Taylor Mountain, did you go back to Taylor Mountain knowing what was there?
TED BUNDY: No. No, I wasn't going back. I just drove, I just drove by there. That's all. It was on the highway.
ROBERT KEPPEL: You drove by there.
TED BUNDY: I didn't even slow down.
ROBERT KEPPEL: All right.
TED BUNDY: Ya. That was really not on my mind at that time.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ok. So, what happened in the next couple days?
TED BUNDY: Well, again, the reason that I was so nervous, and this might be something you could plug into if that's what you want to do, or utilize, the reason I was so nervous about anything like that being found in that parking lot was that no more than two weeks before, that I had been doing, using the same modus operandi in the same neighborhood in the, in front now of the same sorority house that Georgann Hawkins disappeared from. I encountered a girl going out the door and asked her to help me. Walked her all the way to that lot, 11:00 on a Friday night. And I was, I was drunk and I was just babbling on and I told her I worked in Olympia, that I lived in a rooming house. I mean, I was just, I was horrified later on. But,
ROBERT KEPPEL: Were you drunk when you got Hawkins?
TED BUNDY: Yes, more or less, but yes. That was basically part of the MO at that time. Ya. But, I reached all the way to the car, and this happened, would happen sometimes, and just "no, I don't want to do it.'' I said, "thank you. See you later." And she walked away. But after, after the Hawkins thing I was, you know, just paronoid as hell that this girl would say "you know, something weird happened to mea couple weeks ago. This guy came along with crutches and asked me to help him. He took me to a Volkswagon and said he worked in Olympia and lived here in the University District. " How many people could that apply to? So, there you are.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ok. How about getting back, to going back to that scene?
TED BUNDY: Again?
ROBERT KEPPEL: Getting back to going back to that scene.
TED BUNDY: Ok. Well, I went back the next day and I went back about three days later: to do that business that we talked about earlier and went up the roadway with it. It was sort of a crude attempt to disguise the identity or avoid, I mean, the identification of the remains as such. I don't know. In retrospect it doesn't -- it sounds pretty incoherent, but that's what was motivating it at the time. And then maybe about a week to two weeks later I went back for a third time. Ya.
ROBERT KEPPEL: What for?
TED BUNDY: Again, just to see what was going on. You know, there's a lot of psychological stuff going on here that we j ust don't have time for. I mean, we could spend days explaining it. I mean, there is a, there is a, there is an aspect here of, you know, the possessiveness Bill's talked about and I'm sure you're familiar with, you know, the after effects. This is why I'm so keen on the staking out of crime scenes of this type afterwards. Fascination with death, necrophilia, all that. But, of course, after -- you know, in June, after a week, it's, you know, what with all the local, the wildlife, that there's not much left.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Were you going back to that scene to commit sex acts?
TED BUNDY: Well, I don't want to talk about that right now. We will talk about it some day, but I don't have - - we don't not, really have enough to give you the background on that. I want us to work into that.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ok. All right. Now, did you actually put, always carry this little hacksaw with you?
TED BUNDY: Oh, it was in the tool kit. I had a metal tool kit in the front of the - - the trunk, such as it is, in the Volkswagon. It had everything in there. I mean, you know, all the tools you need to repair Volkswagons. Just like any tool kit, metric stuff.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ahh ha.
TED BUNDY: And in there was a hacksaw. And also a little shovel, little army shovel.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Did you ever bury anybody?
TED BUNDY: Oh, yes. Ya. I mean, in my -- ya. In my, you might say, my more coherent -- not coherent, that's -- when I was really going all out to -- and took my time. Ya. I did. I mean, it's quite clear. I mean, there's no question about -- almost without question, those who have been found were not and those who haven't been found were buried.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ahh ha.
TED BUNDY: It's that simple.
ROBERT KEPPEL: How many people do you figure are buried in the state of Washington?
TED BUNDY: A couple. Just a couple.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Do you know who?
TED BUNDY: Well, I remember the name of -- you know, I can't remember names, most of the names I don't remember. A couple, like the one we were just talking about, the name is -- it comes back to me. But, -- let me think. One, two -- that's all. Two. Ya. I don't remember the name on this, on the other one. I included in the two Hawkins, only because it was a partial kind of thing. Plus one other.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Who was the other one?
TED BUNDY: I don't remember the name and I don't want to -- I mean, you know, I don't want to guess.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Isi tone during that period of time, from say January through --
TED BUNDY: This would have been in early '84, '74.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Early '74? A girl from Olympia? How about the Evergreen College girl?
TED BUNDY: Oh, ya. That's right. Ya.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ya?
TED BUNDY: Ya.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Where is she?
TED BUNDY: Well, she's up in the mountains.
ROBERT KEPPEL: What mountains?
TED BUNDY: Up in the Cascades, you know.
ROBERT KEPPEL: And she's actually buried in the ground?
TED BUNDY: Well, - - how did that work? This - - this is something that happened piece by piece, strange as this may sound. I'm trying to remember exactly where it all happened. That was -- that's something we're going to have to talk about in the future, but that was, I don't know that I was evermore incoherent and I -- I mean, that night is like some kind of dream, you know, very blurry are a, nightmarish and, I have trouble piecing it together. But we will -- it's going to take mea while to work on that one.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ok.
TED BUNDY: I'd had a -- as I sometimes had a bottle of wine in the car and was just, among other things extremely drunk.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Just so I can get an idea about timing as far as in that two hours or hour. Can we get some sort of feeling, if you can't remember names, as to maybe timing or events or something that will tell me - - give me an idea of how many people we need to talk about, locations, things like that so I can get an idea of the scope?
TED BUNDY: Ahh ha. Let's see. Ya. In Washington?
ROBERT KEPPEL: Right.
TED BUNDY: Ya.
ROBERT KEPPEL: We've got the one from Oregon up there too, but that's our case too.
TED BUNDY: Well, let's see. I think it's -- I think it'll be eleven.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Eleven altogether?
TED BUNDY: Ya.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ok. Ok. Which areas? Which jurisdictions or which disappearance sites or -- do you remember any names of anybody?
TED BUNDY: Well, sure. I remember a lot of it. Sure.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Well, give me an idea of which ones you're talking about.
TED BUNDY: [long silence] Well, I could give you probably most of the occas-- names, or some names and some locations.
ROBERT KEPPEL: All right.
TED BUNDY: -- That don't have names.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ok.
TED BUNDY: Ok. But this is basically what I want to avoid.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ok.
TED BUNDY: Putting myself into a position where we more or less run through the standard litany of, you know, the old -- of the -- you know, of the victims and without the depth of information and the precedent and anticedent stuff, what happened before, during and after, what was going in my mind, and that's why I feel that I want -- I'd like to cloth these names in some kind of reality, even though it be a distorted reality. And I'm worried that I'm -- I won't bullshit you -- I'm worried that I -- that we just run through it like this and I can understand your curiosity, believe me, but we run through it like this and we leave ourselves open to the temptation to leave it at that.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Right. One of the things that I'm concerned about is time.
TED BUNDY: I know.
ROBERT KEPPEL: And I'd like to know -- you haven't finished everything about Georgann Hawkins either.
TED BUNDY: No.
ROBERT KEPPEL: So we've got ten more to go.
TED BUNDY: That's right.
ROBERT KEPPEL: So, I'm thinking about areas, time, whether I need to stay with the rest of that first site or whether IN eed to move on to a different site or something I don't even know about that I could corrobotate fast in the next couple of days. I mean, I know of the basic six. Now I know about seven, one that was missing that we didn't know was there. And the Donna Manson girl from Thruston County that I -- that's all I know about so far from you. Now I need to know what other time frames you're talking about and who, if it's other jurisdictions and stuff like that, that I would like just to get some perspective on cause I'd like to get as much details on each one as I can.
TED BUNDY: Ya. I can --
ROBERT KEPPEL: I don't want to go for two hours and say, well, I have no idea what the scope is. Cause if anybody asks me what the scope is, somebody of importance, I'd like to know what it is.
TED BUNDY: Ya. I don't blame you.
ROBERT KEPPEL: I mean, you and I have talked for hours already and we can keep going counting the other hours and letters and everything. I mean, the scope (end of tape).
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ya, it's ok now. But what I need to know is if I have to fight for more time, I want to know if I have to fight or not. What I have to fight about. I know the details of things that are here, but maybe some other people don't have as much to talk about as I do. I don't know. It depends on what they have. So I know about those eight. And your're talking about three others. How far back in time? You got '74, January '74 through July of '74. Are there more within that time frame that I don't know about in the state of Washington
TED BUNDY: Ya. Yes, there are. Let's -- I hear you Bob. What I'm trying to do is just to know, for my own self, what is a demonstration that I am serious about this. You have, you have legitimate need to know it all. And you want, of course, you want to start with that which is most obvious, that is, the identies and numbers, dates, and that's important. There's a lot more important stuff. And I've never spoken to anybody about this and I, and it's, I think, for me, it was a, it's an important first confession of it's kind, not that I'm asking, I'm not asking for a, any kind of public service awards but this, the reality is that that's, you know, that's what it was for me.
ROBERT KEPPEL: I guess what I need then, I want to eliminate any suggestions of rather than me throwing out stuff for you to say, you know, this is what we need to talk about or not, like the August 2nd, if there's only eleven, then that's fine. I don't want to do any guess work. I mean, I've got girls like in 1971 at WSU that's been murdered that I'm curious about. I've got two stewardesses.
TED BUNDY: Ya, I can tell you -- I can tell you -- ya, we can do it that way if you'd like, too. And maybe in some ways that's easier. I can tell you what, that's, you know, what I'm not involved in. You know, if you have a list of that type in your head.
ROBERT KEPPEL: There's a gal up in Bellingham in the river strangled in 1970.
TED BUNDY: No.
ROBERT KEPPEL: There's a gal in 1971, Thurston County.
TED BUNDY: No.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Not that far back. Nothing that far back?
TED BUNDY: 1972.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Two girls in Millerslyvania state Park in 1973.
TED BUNDY: Ya, I think you once showed me that.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ahh ha.
TED BUNDY: No. No. No.
ROBERT KEPPEL: There's a little girl in Tacoma.
TED BUNDY: Which one?
ROBERT KEPPEL:.
TED BUNDY: No. Absolutely not. And one thing I'd like to do on some of these, I mean, on all of this if it's possible, and I think it's important. It's important for me. It's important for credibility because there's so much question about my credibility. You know, I would like, I would like to be polygraphed, have a polygraph examination if that can be done in these kinds of things. Do something to enhance the credibility. Not just, you know, specifics, I mean, of the specifics of course, but of my overall account of these things. cause I want it to be believable. I just don't want it -- I don't want to get into a Henry Lee Lucas kind of deal on my -- I have precious little going for me now, but what I do have is I've got to build some credibility.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Right. Ok. Now. Up on Queen Ann hill.
TED BUNDY: But, ya, I must -- so Umm?
ROBERT KEPPEL: You don't know anything about those?
TED BUNDY: No.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Absolutely not.
TED BUNDY: No. No. I have no hestitation about talking about things that I have done. No hestitation about telling you about what I haven't done. Ok. So if I tell you something -- I may not tell you something -- I might not tell you something right now or every single detail right now, but if I tell you something, you can rely on it. And when I say, yes, I did it or no, I didn't do something, that's the way it is.
ROBERT KEPPEL: You never lied to me. No reason.
TED BUNDY: No. No reason to start now.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Corroborate a lot of what you say. And you've already given me corroboration on one.
TED BUNDY: Sure. I could give you corroboration on -- listen. I know what you're pushing for and I don't blame you. This still working?
ROBERT KEPPEL: Still working.
TED BUNDY: You sort through your litany of cases, go through your mind. You want to pick -- I don't want to get in a position of telling you, but pick one more case, other than the Issaquah, the other two Issaquah cases. I don't -- I just -- that you want to know about, and we'll talk about it. I just -- that you want some corroboration on and I'll give you one more. I mean, we can talk about one more if that's, if you feel comfortable about doing that. I don't know.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Umm, have we got the time frame down of when things started in Washington? Are we talking about?
TED BUNDY: Yup.
ROBERT KEPPEL: I mean, the time frame is when?
TED BUNDY: '74.
ROBERT KEPPEL: 1974.
TED BUNDY: Right. Well, ya. I mean, the actual. There were several attempts leading up to that in '73, '72. But no murders.
ROBERT KEPPEL: How does the order of things -- I mean, the public's order of things and your order is obviously something different because there's some in here that we don't know about that is in the order someplace. And we're -- we're talking about one girl that lived, Karen Sparks, just a couple blocks away from where you lived. I don't know if that's the one you want me to talk about.
TED BUNDY: Well, do you want to -- is that the one you want to talk about?
TED BUNDY: Ya.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ok. Cause the order of things are kind of like -- Healy, Manson, Rancourt, Ball, Hawkins, Ott and Naslund. That's eight. Plus Parks, is nine. Are you counting her as one of your eleven?
TED BUNDY: No. No. She's not in that. See, I didn't -- that's not one. No.
ROBERT KEPPEL: So now you're talking about probably three others that I am not familiar with.
TED BUNDY: Yup. Ya.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Are they in King County jurisdiction?
TED BUNDY: Well, let's see. Umnmm. One is and the others aren't. That's the way it is. Ya.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Do you want to talk about the events leading up to Linda Healy, the first one on Taylor Mountain? The are a that we have on the record?
TED BUNDY: (Sigh] Go ahead, what do you have to say? [Talking to some female near him)
UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: (undistinguishable]
TED BUNDY: Ya. Ya, well, that's important and I think that -- here's what I'll do. I mean, here's what I'd like to do today. Agh --
UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN:?
TED BUNDY: No, but I appreciate any advise I can get.
UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN:?
TED BUNDY: I know. Well, let's talk about it then.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Cause I think I can corroborate a lot about the Taylor Mountain incidents and you might be able to lead me to the stuff there. There are some things about Ott and Naslund too you could probably corroborate a lot of things with and --
TED BUNDY: Well, Bill, I could corroborate something on virtually everyone of the -- I mean, almost without a doubt on everyone of these, in one way or another. I mean, that's the -- I don't think anybody doubts that I've done some bad things. The question is what, of course, and how and maybe even most importantly why. And I, I'm not --
ROBERT KEPPEL: Well, most of the people that are coming here to, you know, as far as the law enforcement people, are looking at which cases are you talking about, what can you help us with in finding other bodies, if there's any other physical evidence out there like bicycles, clothes, backpack, what happened to that kind of stuff that's missing.
TED BUNDY: Ya.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Basic information that you're definitely the one.
TED BUNDY: That's right.
ROBERT KEPPEL: -- talking about this stuff.
TED BUNDY: And law enforcement is definitely one of the primary interested parties here, but not the only one. I think they represent many people, and rightly so, those who are the legitimate kind of interests here, but there are other interests.
ROBERT KEPPEL: At the beginning I asked you, you know, where you wanted to start and you didn't know so I told you and then you started --
TED BUNDY: Ahh ha. Ya.
ROBERT KEPPEL: I can just move on to another one.
TED BUNDY: Well, I know. I know what you're
ROBERT KEPPEL: -- for me to do but if that's in your order of things --
TED BUNDY: Well, no, but I - - you know, I -- we got a little bit - - see, I hadn't - - to be honest with you, this morning when I wrote down this itinery -- this outline of mine, I hadn't fully intended to talk any specifics today. I wanted to do is sort of set out some ground rules and get you to understand where I'm coming from and what I'm looking for. Ok? Now, earlier today it was made known to me that -- well, I received some information and it became clear that it would be in my best interest to talk about specifics to show my good faith. And at that time we were talking about Colorado, to begin with. And maybe Utah. To let the authorities in each of those states know that this is not any kind of game, but that we have to have more, and I can't put myself in the corner of going through what I consider to be just the factual high points and we're missing a lot of the stuff inbetween. You know, I make no bones about it. I am looking for an opportunity to tell the story as best I can in the way that makes sense to me and the way it will help not just you or the families, but that's very important, but also to help my own family. You see, I saw the look in my stepson's eyes yesterday -- after he had been told for the first time that - - you see, he's always believed in his heart -- I mean, he's always wanted to believe that I had never done anything like this. As hard as it may be for you to believe that, there are people who do believe that. And there are people close to me who believe that. And to see the look in his eyes confirmed my worst fears. See, he said, could you -- he was just absolutely astounded. He couldn't understand. He was writing me questions, just furiously writing questions. I could see that he, you know, that he was, you know, how really bewildered he was. And I need to give him a chance to know and others a chance to know what was really going on. What it was really like, from me.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Well, I think that a lot of that going to come out with each stage we go through.
TED BUNDY: Well, this is true.
ROBERT KEPPEL: And if you want to start first with how you wanted to start and go with it, go ahead and do it.
TED BUNDY: Well, what I wanted to do was to
ROBERT KEPPEL: -- get it out of the way, already.
TED BUNDY: What I wanted to show, do with you is something we haven't done before and which - - is talk about something very specific. This is something I've held, God forbid, but I've held for all these many years, fifteen years or so. And I think I - - glad we started with that particular inci-- that individual, victim, case, because it was one of the unidentified ones, more or less, you know, in some -- I think you had your suspicions, obviously, and very strong suspicions, but -- So we start with a case which I think kind of demonstrates or exemplifies what we're trying to do. What kind of information I have. I have more or -- I intend to talk to the Colorado authorities about one of their cases where remains have -- where they've found nothing. Absolutely nothing where they can. And the same with Utah.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Is there any Washington cases that are like that. You mentioned Manson as a possibility, buried.
TED BUNDY: Ya. I think there may be only one though.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Only one that's actually buried?
TED BUNDY: Ya.
ROBERT KEPPEL: You want to talk about that one?
TED BUNDY: No.
ROBERT KEPPEL: You told me before that's your
TED BUNDY: Well, that is. That is -- and that certainly is.
ROBERT KEPPEL: How about the location?
TED BUNDY: Well, all this -- All this must come out and will come out. What I need is a chance to do it.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ahh ha.
UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: [Undistinguishable]
ROBERT KEPPEL: I think the main thing that we need to do is -- we would like him to confirm all of our suspicions about the ones that we know about for sure, and to locate the ones that we don't know about. That's the bottom line.
TED BUNDY: Right. Exactly.
ROBERT KEPPEL: How deeply we get into each of those events -- the chances of finding evidence to confirm any of them is probably slim after 14 years, unless there is something someplace that we don't know about. And those types of activities are things that we need to be able to confirm. To go for.
UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: [undistinguishable)
ROBERT KEPPEL: Well, I'm not going to explain the entire process of criminal investigation to you. He knows what it is. He knows probably better than anybody what it is. But, if we have a particular location and site we can certainly, you know, mount the people to check the site --
TED BUNDY: sure.
ROBERT KEPPEL: And search for it. We're a hell of a lot better at it today than we were fourteen years ago. That's for sure. And we've got the auspices of the Green River Task Force to search and help search in probably the most professional way possible, and that's about all I can offer. If we know a location where you think we can find something.
TED BUNDY: Ahh ha.
ROBERT KEPPEL: But to my knowledge, you know, Hawkins and Manson were the only two that disappeared that we knew about and possibly associated. We may have had the missing person mistake which is entirely possible, but those are the only two. The reason I asked you if you ever buried anybody -- the chances of finding remains that have been left above ground over a long period of time are slim to none.
TED BUNDY: That's right. That's exactly true.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Fourteen years is --
TED BUNDY: Oh, nothing. Nothing. I mean, I could tell you exactly where some clothing was thrown, but your'e not going to find anything. Not after all that time. Not along I-90 or anywhere else.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Maybe we could find, I don't know where it is, but, you know, the one I was thinking about is the bicycle. We've never found Janice Ott's bicycle.
TED BUNDY: Well, I know, I know what you mean. Ya.
ROBERT KEPPEL: So, if that's some place, we could find that if it isn't at the bottom of Lake Washington.
TED BUNDY: No, no it's not. I don't think so. l '
ROBERT KEPPEL: But see, those are the types of events we can got hrough with each case because I'm trying to discover as we go along just how much you really have that we can use.
TED BUNDY: Sure.
ROBERT KEPPEL: And froma factual standpoint. But, you know, the reasons why, to me, the why never caught anybody. So, cops and their mentality think of what, and where and when and who, you know. And so we're kind of stuck with you wanting why and maybe the occasion with William here will help that out a lot more the with me. But, I'm not interested in the why.
TED BUNDY: Well, I'm don't - - I'm not trying to convince you Bob that you should interested in the why if you're not. I think there are a lot of people are. I know I am. And I think a lot of people are interested in why. People constantly come up to me and they said, will ask me, why. I mean, it baffles people. And they're not law enforcement folks. And I don't think you mean that the why never caught anybody because understanding the people you run after -- you're after, is sometimes 90% of finding them. Ok. That's what you're trying to do with the Green River guy. And more power to you, but I think why is important to a certain degree. I'm not saying that's -- we're going to, we're going to make any tremendous breakthroughs here that I'm some kind of different creature, but I think I have ability to articulate what was going on inside mea lot better than a lot of other people in a way that maybe people can understand. But, again, we'll get back to -- it may or may not benefit you to put it together into how this evolved, year by year, to the first incident, to the second, to the third, what happened before, during, after, in my own mind, what was inflamming me, what was inciting me, what was terrifying me. I mean, all those things. This is not by any means an attempt to gain sympathy. It's simply an attempt to understand. And it would help me. It would help most importantly my family. It's not worth it to me, really, to, in the short run reawaken all these bad feelings and all this hurt and all this anger and a fire storm of publicity just to -- which would hurt my family, without any kind of compensating abilty to help them understand. And that's what's - - and that's a major consideration for me. And it's - - I mean, my feeling is is we do it right, I do it right, or I don't do it, really, at all.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ok. How is right for you then? What do you want to do? I mean, we've got forty-minutes --
TED BUNDY: Well, we've got forty-five minutes left. We've got forty- five minutes left. And also, I haven't spoken to Bill at all. I mean, --
ROBERT KEPPEL: Well, Bill's got a time with you tomorrow.
TED BUNDY: Ok. All right. Well, I need the opportunity to go over all the cases with you and with others who have, are experts in the field of serial homicide and to piece it together. To hard data the crime scenes, the psychological stuff, everything. And we can't do that in forty-five minutes and we can't do that in two days. Not -- cause there's more people involved than just you. There's more obviously than you. More states, more jurisdictions. And so, we don't have everybody scheduled right now that we -- to just sort of -- for me to give them a demonstration of good faith. We only have, really have tomorrow and Sunday. Monday is basically just going to be for family. It could be the last day. So,
ROBERT KEPPEL: What do you want to do with the two days that we have here?
TED BUNDY: Well
ROBERT KEPPEL: Cause they're going to be asking the very same questions that I am, the other people coming in -- wanting to know time and events.
TED BUNDY: I know. Sure they are. Well, here's -- let me give you an example.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ok.
TED BUNDY: I won't give you specifics right -- well -- I -- representative of the Attorney General's Office in one of the states got in touch with a friend of mine. And he said, listen, we know that Bundy has a lot of things to talk about that happened in our state. We know we don't have enough time to really get into all that before Tuesday. Give us one thing, one tangible thing and our Attorney General and our Governor will go and do what they can to convince Florida to give us time to do it right, to talk to, to develop this information, to find whatever needs to be found. And they're committed to that. And they're not asking for everything. We just want a demonstration of good faith. One hard thing to go on. And that's basically, that's basically my thinking at this point.
ROBERT KEPPEL: So that state's not Washington. It's Colorado. And you got the hard thing is that you need to locate the bodies.
TED BUNDY: Well, that was, that was the thinking, that was what came off the top there. It's not just Colorado. It's Utah and Idaho and other places.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Well, how do you want to treat the next -- you know, the time here with me now.
TED BUNDY: Well, what are we are we scheduled again? I didn't know we were scheduled again.
ROBERT KEPPEL: We're not. Not scheduled here. I've noticed that there's - - I asked about nighttime visits. I don't know what the policy is here.
UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: (undistinguishable]
TED BUNDY: Ya. They're trying they decided to leave the nights open because -- you know, I'm this is exhausting for me. I mean, I -- not just this, but the whole death watch thing. I mean, there's a lot going -- that's another complicating factor. There's a lot more going on with me than this. This is why death watch complicates out ability to really -- for me to really focus on this. But I'm -- cause I'm thinking about family, thinking about the legal situation. Again, I'm not asking for sympathy. That's just the way it is, Bob.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Well, I understand. I'm just wondering since (end of tape).
ROBERT KEPPEL: Testing. One, two, three, four, five, six.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ok. It's going.
TED BUNDY: What's the Attorney General of Washington willing to do?
ROBERT KEPPEL: Willing to do?
TED BUNDY: Anything? Who is -- who is the Attorney General these days?
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ken Eikenberry.
TED BUNDY: Good old Ken Eikenberry.
ROBERT KEPPEL: He's a Republican.
TED BUNDY: That's right.
ROBERT KEPPEL: You can imagine what he said already.
TED BUNDY: Ya. RK He said we're not going to stop any execution, not for any reason. So, a lot of law enforcement agencies in our state are waiting to hear back from me.
TED BUNDY: Just a second.
GUARD: Ted.
TED BUNDY: Yes.
TED BUNDY: Well, I can
ROBERT KEPPEL: We've been discussing the fact that you've been focusing mainly, at least in your reactions -- I mean, you went thoroughly through one particular case, fairly well --
TED BUNDY: Yup.
ROBERT KEPPEL: And although there's some extra little things that are tough for you to talk about, but the reality is that once we get to talking about another one and another one, you're -- you're thinking more about the Colorado cases and --
TED BUNDY: No, I'm not.
ROBERT KEPPEL: And what's behind that than dealing with me.
TED BUNDY: No, I'm not. I'm telling you -- I'm not, I'm not treating you, wouldn't treat you any differently. And I'm not holding you hostage, Bob.
ROBERT KEPPEL: It sounds like, from what you've explained all through the past couple hours, is that maybe we should start with yourself -- way back when. I mean, whenever you wanted to start off life, and start talking up through it. And getting up to -- maybe we might get to 1974 and '75, but your main interest is in making sure that people and humanity and those who deal with this know about the reasons for this activity and what goes on during the physical things that people can pick up on when, you know, somebody's life's going astray and things. And maybe that's, that's probably the most important thing to society, moreso than the cops.
TED BUNDY: I know.
ROBERT KEPPEL: But, agh, and if that happens to lead up and talk through some of the facts and cases that we go along and the history of that conversation, maybe that's the type of atmosphere that you'd be --
TED BUNDY: That's the kind of atmosphere where I would be able to give it to you, at least in a verbal form like it was. Not the bits and pieces. What we're doing is taking stuff out of context. And I know you have a narrow focuses, you have a narrow focus given your law enforcement perspective. And that's important for what you do. It's important that those questions be answered. But it's important for me that those questions be answered in context, for any number of reasons, but I won't -- but perhaps the most important reason for my own family, so that they understand it. But if they, they're only getting part of the story, they're only getting the worst stuff, you know how, you know what's going to happen if and when all this stuff goes public if all we did was just hit the whos and the whens and the body count. That's -- I mean, it's just going to, it's just going to be a -- it's going to be bad enough as it is. And I -- I don't mind that as long as we have
ROBERT KEPPEL: (undistinguishable] We're only here to represent one factor of the body count or whatever it is. You know, I personally, and police and law enforcement, we have an interest in knowing about the historical background.
TED BUNDY: Right.
ROBERT KEPPEL: And, but, you know, I don't know, you talked probably on the other side of the wall to more cops than I have. My thinking is that the way that confirms things with cops is just to tell the god-darn truth about the facts --
TED BUNDY: That's right.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Get it over with and you know when you got it.
TED BUNDY: That's the way it is.
ROBERT KEPPEL: That's what they understand.
TED BUNDY: I know that.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ya.
TED BUNDY: I know that.
ROBERT KEPPEL: The manner in which these interviews are organized, it's all cop oriented. I mean
TED BUNDY: Well, that's too bad. That's the way --
ROBERT KEPPEL: Somebody else and somebody else and then your time's up. Maybe we didn't re- organize something.
TED BUNDY: Good point.
ROBERT KEPPEL: So we can understand what in the world facts really are.
TED BUNDY: Well, that needs to be done. You -- I think you do see it. Whether you like it or agree with it or not maybe is something else again.
ROBERT KEPPEL: What are you going to tell the guy from Idaho that comes in? He wasn't even aware that there was a murder there.
TED BUNDY: Ya. I don't think -- do we have that set up yet?
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ya.
TED BUNDY: Well
ROBERT KEPPEL: See, when I called him first to tell him to come in, I said, you know this might be a surprise to you, but he wants you down there. The guy from Idaho. TB Ya.
ROBERT KEPPEL: He was totally unaware. You're going to have to tell him. He doesn't know -- have a clue what you're talking about.
TED BUNDY: Ya. All right. We've got twenty minutes. I, we -- I don't feel like we've, we've achieved, we've accomplished something here but I don't feel like we've really joined heads on this thing. I don't know what you want to do. I know you've been on, on this case, so to speak, the Bundy case, for a long time. I know that you must have some deepseated feelings about it. I don't want to make too many assumptions, but here's what it comes down to to me. I want the truth, the truth that's going to be helpful to you, but the broader truth that has a wider application. That's my bottom line. There's just no way it can be done in these circumstances with this amount of time, and that's the way it is. I'm not holding you hostage. If you don't want to do anything with it you're free to walk away. If you can put your heads together with these other law enforcement people and think of any way, I'm not asking for clemency, I'm not asking to get off. I'm not asking for sympathy, but I, I draw the line. We need a period of time, 60, 90 days, a few months, systematically going over with everybody, bottom to top, everything I can think of. Get it all down. You can use it as you see fit. But -- that's how it is. Now, if you can see a way. I know you're limited in what you can do. You've got your job and your political considerations and all that and your boss apparently has taken a position against this, but all I can tell you is when you go out and talk to those other people, you can tell them this. Yes, I'm ony going to give you part of it. I'll give you something substantial right now to show you that my head is in the right place. I will not be in -- put myself in a position of giving it all away and not getting the kind of result that I think is best from my people and I think for society in general. But, let's just stick, I don't want to sound like I'm too altruistic here, that is a consideration, but I am concerned about my own people. Bob, they're going to get me sooner or later. Agh. You don't need to worry about that, but you've been after this for fifteen years. A couple months is not going to make any difference. That's what I have to say.
ROBERT KEPPEL: I think essentially you're right, that as a person, ok?, you know, knowing what I know today, I'd like to keep you alive forever so we could really go over the whole thing together. That's what I'd like to do as a person inside me.
TED BUNDY: Ya.
ROBERT KEPPEL: The reality is that I'm a cop and I have to go back to work and work in an atmosphere of -- I'm a professional. I don't get upset because somebody didn't get the death penalty and should have.
TED BUNDY: Yup.
ROBERT KEPPEL: I just understand and want to learn about the process of investigation. We talked about this before.
TED BUNDY: Sure.
ROBERT KEPPEL: About the processes.
TED BUNDY: Ya.
ROBERT KEPPEL: The fact that you're dead or alive as a professional process makes no difference. If I got hung up on the fact that you were dead or alive, I may as well just go up in the mountains and just kill myself.
TED BUNDY: Ok. Well, I'm not saying necessarily that you are, but, I mean, the most -- you have got some interest in justice I suppose, whatever your definition of that is. All I'm saying is if, that is, there is any worry on anybody's part, whether it's your's or your bosses' or anybody else, I -- what, what -- agh, what I would like to help people understand is, if it's justice, whatever that means, they're after, they can get a lot more justice in a couple months than they can right now. And they can help a lot more people in a couple months than they're going to help right now. And they're not going to be doing a thing for me other than giving mea chance to tell the story. I'm repeating myself but I've, I've -- I've no one but myself to blame about I realize that.
ROBERT KEPPEL: I was about ready to bring that up.
TED BUNDY: And I take full responsibility for it. I've procrastinated, I've waited too long and I don't want to go into long rational or long story about, you know, all the things that put me in a position of waiting this long. Believe me, on many occasions prior to today, prior to early this week, I had seriously asked for people who represent me to take this approach, long before this warrant was signed, and they steadfastly opposed it and all but demanded that we stick with the conventional legal approach. And perhaps last February when I virtually begged them to go this way, we had gone this way, maybe we wouldn't be in the position - - we wouldn't be in the position we are today, I'm pretty sure. Ya. I realize, Bob, we're -- I am, whistling against the wind right now, the politics are pretty heavy duty out there. And folks have made up their minds, the people in power, a lot of them. And I don't know if this is going to work. And if it doesn't it's going to be too bad for -- everybody losses.
ROBERT KEPPEL: You are talking about a system oriented toward the chance to kill Ted Bundy. I mean, that -- what sound politician wouldn't want to fall the ax right now? He doesn't care anything about it. All he's talking about is law and order. Here's this famous murderer that he has a chance to say, "no, we're not going to support." And, but, as a police officer, I have to assume that you're going to die Tuesday.
TED BUNDY: I know.
ROBERT KEPPEL: I got to think about what you can give law enforcement between now and Tuesday.
TED BUNDY: Ahh ha.
ROBERT KEPPEL: And if it's pieces, it's pieces. -- or nothin~. I don't know which. But, I can't -- I'm not going to give you any advise. I'm sure not going to tell everybody you're a liar, that's for sure. And if they ask me I'm just going to tell them the truth that you did tell me some things and that I thought you were cooperating. Time is a problem.
TED BUNDY: I know.
ROBERT KEPPEL: And, there probably -- there's no way I can leave here today and gather up these people and come up with some plan of action about the interview with Ted Bundy. All I could ever expect when I heard I had 2 1/2 hours, you know, 15 years out of 2 1/2 hours is nothing.
TED BUNDY: Sure.
ROBERT KEPPEL: So, one of the things that I wanted to do is at least find out the scope and you've helped me with that a little bit. I would like to know about the other three that we're talking about because I really don't have any clue. TB Let me ask you this, again. I know the position you're in. But law enforcement in the past has been somewhat -- they've not been shy. I remember years ago about holding conferences and getting together and swapping ideas and what is Ted Bundy really like and drawing diagrams on the wall and corning out with statements to the press about what they think Bundy's about. You know, law enforcement has an interest here. Society has an interest, families have an interest, etc. Is -- are the politics such that it's just not possible for you and others in a similar position to sit down this weekend, somehow, sit down this weekend together with a cross-section of interested parties, try to get everybody in the same room. You know how this stuff goes. It's a tower of babble right now. Everybody talking it over, over through the news media and over the telephone. Nobody even getting together to find out well, what do we really stand to gain, what do we lose. I mean, what's going on here. And see if a consensus of some kind can be hammered out without anybody having to stand out there alone, without Bob Keppel risking the rath of his boss or anybody else. Or, everybody standing together and saying, you know, we're not for Ted Bundy. The son-of-a-bitch, you know, or whatever, but we are for finding out and we think it's not unreasonable that this will come to pass because we have received so -- some strong indications that he's -- has opened up in a way he never has before. Do you hear what I'm saying?
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ahhh ha.
TED BUNDY: There's going to be a lot of police, whether I call them in here or not, most of them would be here, don't you think? A lot of them would be here -- waiting in the wings. I know they have before. If we can get, or if you can get somebody, if somebody can get everybody in a room and you say this is what I know, I mean, I'm not Ted Bundy's advocate, I'm an advocate of Washington State's interest. I'm an advocate of Colorado's interest. I'm an advocate of the Attorney General of Florida's interest. And this is what we think. What's at stake? What are we looking at? Is he trying to bullshit us? Is he, you know, trying to manipulate us? Or is he serious? Will he give us what we want? And can we justify this politically by saying we're getting this and we're still going to be able to execute him anyway. And corning up, again, with the kind of consensus that the public respects and the politicians respect. Because you say, well, what do politicians have to gain. I mean, in this law and order atmosphere. Well, part of the -- one of the, the calling card of today's politicians, today's compassionate politicians is their deep respect for families. Ok. I'm, I'm would sound hypocritical if I were to say anything about the families of these individuals, even all the years I haven't said anything. But the fact of the matter is they still do count. They're still out there. They still deserve to find their people. They can find their people. I can tell them how to find their people and it's up to the politicians to give mea chance. And that's the bottom line. And if they don't give me the chance, which I will take advantage of if I am given it, have the chance, I am given the chance they will get -- they will be able to help those families they so righteously talk about all the time. And still get me. Well, it sounds to me like, you know, they have everything to gain and nothing to lose. Think about the predictarnent. Again, I know that I'll -- I know that it's going to occur to you and I know the accusation's been made that I'm manipulating families but the reality is they're out there. They're there. If we didn't talk about them they'd still be there. There are a handful, several dozen probably, mothers and -- you know, you've seen it firsthand and I'm sure you probably don't like me talking about it, but I'm going to talk about it. I will tell you and your fellow law enforcement officers everything I can to locate the remains of a number of people in your state and elsewhere. And I can do that. And these are -- this can be done. There are some of these people don't even know that I'm involved. That is, these family members. I'm killed, they're doubly deprived. They don't even get the sense of satisfaction they killed, they executed the guy who did it to their child.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ahh ha.
TED BUNDY: This way they get both the knowledge, the remains of their loved ones and that satisfaction of some justice being done. Without it -- that's what it comes down to, really. I didn't, you know, I put myself in this position. Agh, but that's where we're at. That's one of the places we're at. We're also at a juncture where you as a law enforcement officer want a lot of -- you want something. You want facts, which you're entitled to, which you need, and I recognize that. But there's more involved in that and you know that too. And while I don't expect you to be a spokesman for me or for social science, let's get down to some, the practicalities of what can be done. I know that you as a law enforcement person, as a human being, are interested in families. You're interested in solving crimes, you're interested in preventing future crimes, and what I have to say goes to a lot of that. And I don't think I need to tell you that, but can, can't we get people in the same room and talk about the stuff. Rationally, instead of taking rhetorical stands in a news media. They're going to be here. Think about it.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Well, I know where one stands. I don't know when the other guys are coming in again. My problem is they want their time.
TED BUNDY: Sure.
ROBERT KEPPEL: And, you know, froma practical standpoint, if, this Colorado Attorney General or Governor, whoever it is, consider, then, you know, cops, the, three or four or five that are here, or somebody, there's not much it effects. But that person, in the discovery of that body, and the impact of that, if it's really credible, will have more to say by the fact that we don't know all of the state of Washington. Utah doesn't know all. Idaho doesn't know all. In the short term, between now and Tuesday, then, I know for a fact, and I'm not going to bullshit you, that there is no way in the state of Washington that my boss will interfere with Tuesday's proceeding in anything. All I am, hopefully all I'd be here at the time, was the facilitator of information that either verified or refuted what you wanted to say about cases that maybe you couldn't remember or couldn't talk about it. And that's it. I don't have any authority to -- I can certainly go out to the rest of the detectives that are here and express your wishes. In fact, I can play the tape for them. But, I think, I don't know if you want me to do that.
UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: Bob [undistinguishable]
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ya. You can call at 3:00 in the morning while I was asleep. I told you that I had a boss to consider.
UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: I did not ask you that [undistinguishable]
ROBERT KEPPEL: You didn't?
UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: No.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Well, in any event, I myself am committed and I am willing to say the law enforcement officers, whoever else, as far as I'm concerned today, these people are sincere that there's not enough time.
TED BUNDY: That's good enough. You know, if you
ROBERT KEPPEL: It's my understanding that, that I have to prove all of my public releases through my boss. I'm living with that. So, when I get information, I have to go back to them and ask them, here's the way it's stated, which they want to couch the information that's released. Not only that, but I have the obligation to contact the jurisdictions involved because I represent each one of them. And believe me, not each of those have the same opinion as the Attorney General. Now, Thurston County people have a different idea about the Manson case than say, the King County Police. Ok?
TED BUNDY: Ya.
ROBERT KEPPEL: King County Police, you know, the switch can go man. There are other agencies that feel the same way and some that don't. So, I have to go back, and I'm dealing with multi-agency problem here. Who's going to say what to do and when. Now, the big one is not my Attorney General. The big one is the Governor. And whatever those people want to do is up to them. If they want to influence the Governor all I can say to each of them is I have pieces and I have some, I don't have all, and there's certainly not enough time. I can't go out and risk my employment by telling Governor Martinez he's full of shit.
TED BUNDY: No.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ok? I can't do anything like that. I don't think you asked me to do that.
TED BUNDY: No. No, think about what we've done here today. And what's left to do. We're out of time. I need, I want a couple minutes with Bill before you go. Diane will be in touch with you and we'll try to see what, if anything, can be put together that's something you, your comfortable with.
ROBERT KEPPEL: You can shut that off now.
TED BUNDY: That initial understanding about confidentiality, for the time being, you know, for the next few days anyway.
GUARD: Mike and they are out there. I'm obligated to give them about another 25 minutes now because I didn't give them in here til 11:30.
TED BUNDY: We just have a few more minutes and we'll be done.
GUARD: Ok. Just let me know.
GUARD: Did I understand him to say that you were coming tomorrow, Sir?
TED BUNDY: No, that's Mr. Hagmire. l
GUARD: Oh, ok.
TED BUNDY: I just would ask you to hold off on any specifics about, I mean, not play the tapes for anybody and you -- and to ask you, however, to feel free venture your conclusions and opinions about the meeting to other law enforcement officers if you feel that's warranted or appropriate. And then, you know, ultimately you'll use this information as best you can, limited though it is.
ROBERT KEPPEL: If I can get ahold of Salt Lake and hunt up Fisher, but from my understanding there's somebody in addition to Fisher, right?
TED BUNDY: There's some other people coming with him. I think somebody from Vail, Colorado.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ok. Right. That's the one that can probably help you.
TED BUNDY: Nobody, I don't think, is from Grand Junction, but I'm not sure.
ROBERT KEPPEL: I don't think there is -- There seems to me there's somebody from like State's Attorney Office plus Fisher.
TED BUNDY: Ya.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Well, how do you feel about nightime visits?
TED BUNDY: Well.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Then we have the possibility of tonight or tomorrow night after the other police are done. And you probably wouldn't have (undistinguishable].
TED BUNDY: Ahh ha. Some of this I can, I think that that could be, some of that could be worked out. The prison authorities have intentionally scheduled only for daytime because, again, because the activity during the day plus all the, you know, the stresses and limitations of death watch. You know, by the time 7, 8 o'clock rolls around, I've about had it. You know, I'm just really not functioning to well. so, and as a last resort that could be worked on, except, of course, Monday night, that's out of the question.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ya. I was just either thinking of either, either tonight or tomorrow night or the next night.
TED BUNDY: Sunday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday night. Well, you're Dianna knows where you're staying.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ahh ha. I'm not staying anywhere right now but she will shortly.
TED BUNDY: Right. Ok. Well, you'll find -- she'll find out. So, I'll be in touch with you through her.
ROBERT KEPPEL: I can call the assistant warden and offer the night time stuff.
TED BUNDY: Who?
ROBERT KEPPEL: The assistant warden.
TED BUNDY: Decker? Decker or Turner. Those are the two.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ya. Decker.
TED BUNDY: Ok. Ya. Turner, you'll find out, he's the one that called. He's the assistant superintendent for operations. He is the man. He calls all the shots. Oh, that's right, Decker has taken his place. That's right. You're right. Ok. (end of tape) JANUARY 22, 1989
ROBERT KEPPEL: Testing, one, two, three.
TED BUNDY: The Seattle papers are talking about, saying all sorts of outrageous things that I've been telling you.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Really?
TED BUNDY: Ya.
ROBERT KEPPEL: What's that?
TED BUNDY: What does that mean? Things like I -- we went over eight, nine cases and -- I don't know. You didn't -- I guess I should ask you flat out -- You didn't mention specific cases to anybody in the media, did you?
ROBERT KEPPEL: Specific ones? No. No. Cause there's no --
TED BUNDY: I think they're guessing.
ROBERT KEPPEL: They have, I told them that you confirmed what our suspicions are, and from all I can estimate that was what Diane wanted me to do too.
TED BUNDY: Ya. Well, I hear you. I was just curious. I just, you know, I was -- wasn't accusing you. RK And then I told them also that there was one we talked in detail about, but I didn't say anything about the details. And then I contacted each of the victims relatives and talked to them and I told them how sincere you were and how open you were about talking to me about it and that it was a difficult process to go through. And, you know, they wished me luck and --
TED BUNDY: How about the one in particular, the Georgann Hawkins?
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ahh ha.
TED BUNDY: Were there any -- you know, is there going to be any attempt to go over that are a again?
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ok. Georgann Hawkins are a is pretty much so thoroughly searched. I mean, that was the first one and it was -- we went for miles all over on hands and knees. We found a lot of bones, but, you know, by the time we got -- the only thing we have of her, or had of her, for the medical examiner lost bones--
TED BUNDY: They lost the --
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ya. Were two, was one femur bone. We ended up with five femur bones. That's all we had. The only thing that we could possibly cover that may add to some of the answers is a location of Donna Manson, because she's the one that's missing. And we never found any, anything we think that is her at all. And we've never found the rest of Taylor Mountain either. I mean, we've found just skulls. And we never found the remainder of the bodies. We never found Janice Ott's bicycle. We never did -- we actually found -- all we found of Janice Ott was her lower jaw bone. We didn't find her skull. We found Naslund's skull. We found Ott's, what we think was Ott's, backbone. You know, those animals they just walk around out there and do their thing.
TED BUNDY: They sure do. Ya.
ROBERT KEPPEL: One, you know, I'd like to know where the Taylor Mountain bodies were placed too, because I'm sure if the bodies were there someplace we would have found at least one other bone -- out there. We went practically everywhere we could. This is the Taylor Mountain bone find. There's a power line road that comes in from Highway 18 and basically -- this is Highway 18 out here. There's a quarter sectional marker right here. This is a 1000 feet into this point from where the power line road meets Highway 18. Ok? Most of what we found was right in here. And all we found, as you can see, hair, skull, skull, jawbone, jawbone and a jawbone over here. This -- and some hair in this are a. We never found any bones. Now are those bodies buried out there someplace? Or are they someplace else where no one's ever found them, any bones? The yellow cross-hatching is hands and knees shoulder to shoulder searches by 14, 15 year old kids. They did one hell of a job. That all are a was nothing but overgrown vine maples and real heavy terraine getting in there.
TED BUNDY: What's the blue, a creek or something?
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ya. There's a creek there.
TED BUNDY: I mean, ya, I mean, it's just -- it could have been something else.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ya.
TED BUNDY: The man comes prepared. Not like our friend from Salt Lake City. How? What road? What map? What freeway? Bless his heart though. I mean, I think he's a nice guy. I'm serious. He just wasn't prepared.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ok. We want -- You going to give mea hint where the rest of those bodies are?
TED BUNDY: I don't know. To be honest with you, I honestly can't tell you.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Were they dumped there?
TED BUNDY: Well -- See -- the disadvantage here -- well, you're not at a disadvantage, but I'm sure you, you consulted -- but I doubt there's any textbooks in the are a of animal deprivation, as such. But I'm sure that somebody's written an article in some forensic journal. In any event there's very, very poor little creatures out there and they just take them.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Right.
TED BUNDY: And why they leave the skulls the way they do -- maybe it's just because they're so hard to break up.
ROBERT KEPPEL: That's true.
TED BUNDY: If the bodies aren't there it's because, I think, it's because the animals took everything. And where they took them God only knows. They must have just chewed them up.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ya. That's what I thought. Because I thought if in fact they were severed or hacksawed, what would have happened was that the -- we would have found some vertebre, that, the little piece that fits right in the skull holding the skull together, but they don't -- I found everyone of those on all the other cases, except these. And on the Green River cases we find all those. So we know that the animals don't chew those all the way up. All right?
TED BUNDY: Ya.
ROBERT KEPPEL: And with 37 skeletons in Green River we know a lot about animal behavior, right?
TED BUNDY: Oh, sure you do. Ya. I forgot all about that.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Looking back now to '74 here
TED BUNDY: Ya, well, you can get a
ROBERT KEPPEL: You got a lot more -- at the time -- we're looking at about a year's decomposition on some of these, that the animals had that much time to take them away. But, in the Green River cases some of them are five years, two years, three years. Right?
TED BUNDY: Interesting, interesting I've got to say.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Are you -- were these heads severed, like Georgann Hawkins?
TED BUNDY: Ya.
ROBERT KEPPEL: They were?
TED BUNDY: Ahh ha. [long silence)
ROBERT KEPPEL: They weren't severed? Are you saying that because we don't have any evidence of severing and you don't want to say it, or are you telling me that's fact?
TED BUNDY: I wasn't going to answer you when you asked. I just did that very well with the Salt Lake City guy.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Oh, did you?
TED BUNDY: Well, no, I just ran out of steam. I just ran out of steam. And I don't have much left. So - -
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ok. How about, how about the Janice Ott's bicycle?
TED BUNDY: Ok. Do you have any maps of Seattle?
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ahhh ha.
TED BUNDY: Show me the Arboretum.
ROBERT KEPPEL: The Arboretum. Ok. Let's see here. The Arboretum. Right - - it would be - - Place you know well. Here's the University. Here's the Arboretum.
TED BUNDY: This is going to take some doing here.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Lake Washington Boulevard coming down there is the main road through.
TED BUNDY: Ya, that's right. No, that's not it. I think - - a little orientation problem. Shouldn't take me more than a couple days to figure it out. No, let's see. This is kind of mind boggling. I used to know that place like the back of my hand, but I -- I'm having a lot of trouble, I mean, genuine trouble -- figuring stuff out. Something is not right on this map, I swear.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Well, this is probably more recent than -- but the city of Seattle hasn't changed that much. There's no new roads there. Those have all ready been -- you know, the city of Seattle is all established. There's nothing new in there. It's very much like it was when you were there.
TED BUNDY: Ahh ha. It's not Washington Boulevard.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Well, you've got -- this is the main road that goes down. All the way down Capitol Hill. 24th goes to 23rd. Is the bike something that somebody would have found, out in the open?
TED BUNDY: Oh, well. I mean, some little black kid's riding it around.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Sure. Sure.
TED BUNDY: Probably ridden the wheels off it. But, it's a black are a, well, mixed. Used to be. Border line of the Central Area. Let me see the -- let's see -- maybe a bigger perspective would help. No, just a minute.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Bigger? You want it bigger?
TED BUNDY: A little bit bigger.
ROBERT KEPPEL: I think that the biggest perspective is right here. And --
TED BUNDY: How about the segment just below this one?
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ok. Map 20. starting up here, comes down. Here's 23rd. Here's Madison. 23rd and Madison, a famous part of town.
TED BUNDY: That is 23rd Place. I know that --
ROBERT KEPPEL: Well, if you left
TED BUNDY: It's not 24th.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ok.
TED BUNDY: It's below 24th. And what it used to be, there was a main drag that came out, out of the Central Area. I used to drive a lot, in the old days before the freeway was all fixed up. And I was going South to Tacoma. And I used to come in on that and I remember there was a --
ROBERT KEPPEL: This is the street here. That's all the way in from the Central Area. It goes all the way. All the way from I-90.
TED BUNDY: I know it does. But that's not the one. But don't ask me why.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ahh ha.
TED BUNDY: There's this -- let's go back to map number 8. Cause I'm trying to find, you know, the part of the Arboretum that this little roadway, back roadway, sort of snakes around. I mean, snakes around. But -- see, I thought, started to think it was this one. But it deadends there. That's not right.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ahh ha. Is the -- you didn't conceal the bicycle in any way?
TED BUNDY: No. No.
ROBERT KEPPEL: So there's no use even pointing out where it is because we can never find it.
TED BUNDY: Well, it was concealed, but leaves and branches
ROBERT KEPPEL: How about her backpack? And other clothes. Where were they?
TED BUNDY: I don't even remember.
ROBERT KEPPEL: You don't even remember.
TED BUNDY: Oh, wait a minute. I mean, I'm not remembering too good today. I mean, I just, my mind is really -- I mean, I still can't even find a roadway that I must have traveled a thousand times from here. But I'm not remembering clearly, things. I mean, I mean, the backpack. The backpack. Backpack. Ok. It's somewhere that that road -- you know where the Tea -- there's a Japanese Tea Garden --
ROBERT KEPPEL: Yes.
TED BUNDY: In the Arboretum.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ahh ha.
TED BUNDY: That's the reference point. Because it's below -- it's above that. But this little road, this used to just snake right
ROBERT KEPPEL: Above it?
TED BUNDY: And I swear it must be --
ROBERT KEPPEL: Well, this doesn't look like it snakes very much, but it really does. This one. It really is snakey.
TED BUNDY: Washington?
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ya. Lake Washington Boulevard. That's the road. That thing. These little curves here, they really curve.
TED BUNDY: Oh, I know, but that's not it because that goes right through the Arboretum. This is on the edge of the Arboretum. The road I'm talking about, winds, goes right around the outside edge, right here at the southwest corner of the Arboretum. It comes in like this. It looks something like this. Maybe. But it's somewhere above, or used to be, somewhere above.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Well, you could get right where you're talking about by just going over here like this. Across and back up again.
TED BUNDY: It could be it. I mean, that's
ROBERT KEPPEL: You're looking at coming like this, along this road.
TED BUNDY: It just seemed more -- I think the map shows it disjointed while it really is more a less a continuous thing.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ok.
TED BUNDY: Why, it's just one of those routes you get used to. So it's somewhere below that road but above that Tea Garden, whatever it is.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ok. How about Donna Manson? Gal from Thruston County. Olympia. Where's she?
TED BUNDY: Where is she? She should be
ROBERT KEPPEL: She dumped out along the power line too or a different road?
TED BUNDY: That was different. That was different.
ROBERT KEPPEL: What was different about it?
TED BUNDY: Well, where she was, relative to the power line road.
ROBERT KEPPEL: You told me before that she might be buried.
TED BUNDY: Ya. You have pictures here?
ROBERT KEPPEL: You don't remember Rocket Research's explosion plant up there, or Rocket Plant, explosives plant?
TED BUNDY: Ya. I should.
ROBERT KEPPEL: You should. You could have blown yourself up. If you'd have gone up a little bit further, you know, all these live, dud rockets laying around in the woods.
TED BUNDY: That all you have?
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ahh ha. For that time, ya. Is she further up the power line road?
TED BUNDY: Ya. I -- that was a
ROBERT KEPPEL: Which side?
TED BUNDY: Agh, left.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Left side?
TED BUNDY: Ya.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Left side and buried. That's not very far -- how far up? If you never made it to Rocket Research or to the gate up there -
TED BUNDY: Ya. It's hard -- I mean, even though -- I mean, I know what you're -- I mean, I think I know what you mean. But,
ROBERT KEPPEL: Did you go by the gate?
TED BUNDY: Doesn't this go on over -- I mean, this road, doesn't it go on past that place?
ROBERT KEPPEL: No. It starts up and goes to the left into the mountain side. Into the hills. And about another, oh, quarter mile is the Rocket Research are a in there. But, there's a gate there.
TED BUNDY: Ok. Well, I think that -- she was just further up the road.
ROBERT KEPPEL: She's further up the road and she's buried. How far off the road do you think she's buried?
TED BUNDY: Ya, well, inside, inside the tree cover.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Inside the tree cover. Ok.
TED BUNDY: These are contemporary. I mean, these are
ROBERT KEPPEL: Those are right when we found it. Ok? That's March of '75. Not March of '74 when she's missing.
TED BUNDY: But, listen.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ahh ha. We can probably find her if she's still there. In fact, I've dang well half the world that can go search for me, and they'll do it.
TED BUNDY: I won't beat around the bush with you any more because I'm just tired and I just want to get back and go to sleep.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ok.
TED BUNDY: So let me just tell you I'm, I know that, that part of her is buried up in there, but nothing identifiable, probably just literally bones. The head, however, the skull, wouldn't be there.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Where is it?
TED BUNDY: It's no where.
ROBERT KEPPEL: It's no where?
TED BUNDY: Well, I don't -- I'm not trying to be flipant. It's just, it's just no where. It's in a category by itself in that it was -- now I'd just as soon this is something that you just kept, I don't -- I can see the headlines now. But --
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ted, there's not going to be any details. What you told me about Georgann Hawkins isn't going to be known. And I got parents out there that don't even want to know the details.
TED BUNDY: Oh, I know. And I --
ROBERT KEPPEL: He wants to know and I want to know for my own good.
TED BUNDY: Well, it was incinerated and it was just an exception. A strange exception, but it was incinerated.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Where did you incinerate it?
TED BUNDY: Ahh (slight laugh).
ROBERT KEPPEL: Come on partner. These are things I don't know about you.
TED BUNDY: Ya. This is, this is probably the disposal method of preference among those who get away with it.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ya.
TED BUNDY: But because of being -- agh, it's most bizzare, bizzare nature I've ever -- ever been associated with and I've been associated with some bizzare shit.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Right. It's incinerated. Now,
TED BUNDY: It's incinerated.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Tell me about it. What the hell happened?
TED BUNDY: Well, it -- don't know the address of the place. I never wanted to tell this -- I promised myself I'd never tell this because it would -- I thought, of all the things I did to this woman, this is probably the one she was least likely to forgive me for. Poor Liz.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ahh ha.
TED BUNDY: In her fireplace. That's not really not that humorous, but, I mean, the fireplace at that house.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Burn it all up?
TED BUNDY: Down to the last ash, and in a fit of, you know, paranoia and cleanliness, what have you, just vaccumed down all the ashes.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ahh ha.
TED BUNDY: That's the twist.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ya, that's a slight twist. Ya.
TED BUNDY: It's a twist. And it's a lot of work and certainly very risky, under the circumstances. I mean, the kids come home from school and there's a roaring fire in the fireplace and it's warm outside.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Did you ever keep anything in your refrigerator?
TED BUNDY: No.
ROBERT KEPPEL: No body parts in the refrigerator?
TED BUNDY: No, that was not -- that was not something that I ever found any kind of body part things. Something that --
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ok, before you mentioned you gave up the eight before and you gave me three more. And I don't know what three you're talking about. Can you help mea little bit with those?
TED BUNDY: I think --
ROBERT KEPPEL: Which three are you making reference to?
TED BUNDY: Which three. I was trying to figure that out myself.
ROBERT KEPPEL: And what did you come up with?
TED BUNDY: Well, I -- this is what I came up with. It was an earlier one.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ok.
TED BUNDY: To begin with. An earlier one.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ok.
TED BUNDY: '73.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ok.
TED BUNDY: '73. The -- well, it was earlier than anything.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ok.
TED BUNDY: Time confuses me. Time of year. It's -- May. I'm not sure.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ok. Where was she missing from?
TED BUNDY: No. Tumwater are a.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Tumwater are a. That's where she was missing from?
TED BUNDY: Well, no, not the are a, I mean, Tumwater/Olympia. I'm always bad about the -- where one starts and the other stops.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ok. And where did she end up?
TED BUNDY: That whole are a has always disoriented me. That's the problem. There's a maze. I call it a maze of backroads. It's not a maze, I guess, but it's something about the are a that I have a hard time keeping track of the backroad system there.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Is it a found body? Do you know that?
TED BUNDY: No.
ROBERT KEPPEL: It's not found.
TED BUNDY: No.
ROBERT KEPPEL: It's a missing girl from the Tumwater are a.
TED BUNDY: Well, I don't know if she was from there.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Or that's where you picked her up.
TED BUNDY: She was hitchhiking.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Hitchhiking.
TED BUNDY: Ya, I never heard anything more about her.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ok.
TED BUNDY: But that's, that's -- there's an are a -- You know, I don't know, it's hard to explain, Bob. You get into a -- I get in -- well, I, not you, where I would get -- the person I used to be would get into a fit of -- and just drive. And people have trouble relating to that. You sort of lose orientation. You sort of lose track of where you've been. You just get lost. It can be in broad daylight and so panicky, so disoriented. Anyway -- I mean, I believe this is where you're going -- I can't even remember the road system anymore. The highway goes off and you get to the bottom of the Capitol Hill --
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ahh ha.
TED BUNDY: The highway goes off -- one freeway goes off to the left and the other goes off to the right.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ok.
TED BUNDY: Used to know what that was. It goes to the ocean. And there's a whole bunch --
ROBERT KEPPEL: Aberdeen Freeway.
TED BUNDY: Ya. Well, back in there -- I say back in there-~ You go down that road and if you would have, wait -- let's see,. tur~ to the right and then just meander, cause these back roads,
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ahh ha.
TED BUNDY: Without really, not paying as much attention to where you're going as just looking for some place.
ROBERT KEPPEL: ahh ha.
TED BUNDY: I was half way familiar with those kinds of roads because I was, one of my hobbies -- before I started doing this was I liked places, to go places where people dumped stuff. Literally dumped stuff.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Right.
TED BUNDY: I just -- anyway, it was one of these areas where -- by some -- the infamous power lines where a lot of these things would -- people would -- you know, one of these dump areas where they just littered piles of --
ROBERT KEPPEL: Right.
TED BUNDY: Clothing, paper, board, boxes, couches, things.
ROBERT KEPPEL: That's where, she's off of one of those roads someplace.
TED BUNDY: Ya. Now I, you know, there's an image in my mind of the place, of this road that cuts through the torn up old stumps.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ok.
TED BUNDY: And the power lines and the curving road. But where is it?
ROBERT KEPPEL: You don't know.
TED BUNDY: I mean, if I were to drive back and forth through there -- it's back up on, in the power line road, under the tree cover, off to the side of the road.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ahh ha. Ok. Is there one of these three that's a little bit more clear than that one?
TED BUNDY: Ok. The other two I don't know, Bob. My thinking, I was thinking about it. You know, I think that's as much -- You know, you threw out a number and I, I, sometimes I think what happened is a number lodged in my head and you said eight. I thought 11.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ahh ha.
TED BUNDY: You know, we didn't sit down and say, ok, one is -- two is - - three is -- four is.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ya.
TED BUNDY: For some reason I'd been thinking -- I hadn't really stopped myself and for some reason I was thinking the number in Wa shington was 11. I don't know how many individuals.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Can I ask you some individual questions?
TED BUNDY: I don't know. How individual? What do you mean?
ROBERT KEPPEL: We found something at the Lake Sammamish site, pornographic book.
TED BUNDY: Ya.
ROBERT KEPPEL: And it's a pocket book. You know, typical sex novel only it's just got stories in it.
TED BUNDY: Interesting.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ahh ha. Remember something like that?
TED BUNDY: Well, I remember -- ya. There, no. Area -- I can't imagine that I would do such a thing. I mean, I've done some strange things, but -- and some casual -- and --
ROBERT KEPPEL: Probably about 200 yards east of where you pointed out Georgann Hawkins and Ott and Naslund's remains were found, along that road that goes back. Along the highway is where we found a little paperback book.
TED BUNDY: You find lots of strange things up that pass.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ahh. Ya.
TED BUNDY: And that's, you know, being something of a vicarious sort, I used to be up, I used to go up there just to entertain myself when, you know, I read in the paper that somebody was off missing. I ran up there and just cruise around and sit down and search the side roads. It's amazing the things you find up there. But it wasn't mine. But there is lots of -- there's lots of stuff up there. As you know, I go -- every now and then when your Green River victim turns up, used to turn up, and other parts too, it's a very convenient dumping are a. Used to be. Probably still is. You know, I've got to get back and get to sleep, man.
ROBERT KEPPEL: I'd like to ask one last question.
TED BUNDY: Oh, boy.
ROBERT KEPPEL: One last one. Simple one.
TED BUNDY: Ya.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Is that you? It's Lake Sammamish State Park, 1974. The tree, cops roll in to take care of the --
TED BUNDY: Law breakers.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ya.
TED BUNDY: Well, I mean, we're in the ballpark.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Well, that is the very tree that, I believe, Janice Graham, one of our - - the first gal that you approached at Lake Sammamish State Park. She walked all the way to the car with you and then decided not to go. She's the only one that ever saw the Volkswagon.
TED BUNDY: Well, I is it? You say there's a person in there. I mean, it appears to be this other person in there, right?
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ya.
TED BUNDY: I'm not trying to bait the question.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Right. Right.
TED BUNDY: Agh.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Do you remember getting caught in there by the cops?
TED BUNDY: No. No. I think this is -- as you doubt discovered, there are a lot of light colored Volkswagons.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Oh, I know. Ya.
TED BUNDY: And I don't mean to burst your bubble. That is an interesting coincidence. But, God, I was -- you would have never seen me in Lake Sammamish state Park again with all that heat. [laugh] That's a lot of heat there.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ahh ha.
TED BUNDY: That would have been fairly memorable. No, that, I'm most certain that that couldn't be me. And besides, at that time I am, I think, you notice on the back of the car was a missing~-
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ahh ha. Right. Right.
TED BUNDY: Of the ski rack.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ski rack?
TED BUNDY: Ski rack. Ya.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Now, thousand people have asked me to ask you this.
TED BUNDY: Oh god, asprin, right? Go ahead.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ya, right.
TED BUNDY: No.
ROBERT KEPPEL: About.
TED BUNDY: Ok. Well, right. That's one that's easy. No. Absolutely not.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Definitely not.
TED BUNDY: No, I -- That's one of the few I wish that people would believe. They believe everything else except my answer which is no.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Really.
TED BUNDY: On that one. You know, and that's very sad. But it's also so ludicrous because, I mean, I don't know if you ever looked at it in the course of your studies.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ahh ha.
TED BUNDY: It's all the way across town, really fro~ where~-~ aaa kid, hung out and had my paper route. The inference was, for instance, my paper route that came close to or included tpe home. Well, my understanding is it's, you know, for a kid, where the r's lived, as it relates to where I lived 4 it was in~ different part of the world. You're -- that was a pretty lQng ways away. Different schools, different high schools. Neyer went to that are a. Never had any occasion to go there, rt was just, just another part of the forest. And -- agh 4Iw~s qnl~ like thirteen, fourteen years old, or less.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Agh ha.
TED BUNDY: No. Absolutely not. And I wish there was some way that -- I wrote to Mrs. r's psychiatrist one time who asked me this,
ROBERT KEPPEL: Conte.
TED BUNDY: Conte.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ahh ha.
TED BUNDY: Ya. Anyway. And then he in turn wrote hera letter, has written her several letters because, you know, it's my home town, first of all. Not that it should make any difference, but, I mean, there's some allegations th at even Ife el the need to answer, felt the need to answer back then. And I was as e~phatic as I could be that I didn't know anything about that.
ROBERT KEPPEL: When and where was your first murder?
TED BUNDY: One more question, right?
ROBERT KEPPEL: Oh, I'm sorry.
TED BUNDY: Ok.
ROBERT KEPPEL: I was just curious.
TED BUNDY: We'll have to bring that up, do that some other ti me. You know, if there is another time.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ok. Fisher probably would like to talk to you just for a second.
TED BUNDY: All I've got.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ok. I am here at Florida State Prison, Raiford, Florida, with Mr. Ted Bundy. We are having a meeting and presently it is two days prior to his scheduled execution date and he has consented to share some of his ideas and experiences -with us for the purpose of giving law en£orcelllellt a better unders: tanding of people they may encounter in the future who have been involved in activities similar to those of Mr. Bundy at an earlier age. It is late at night and Mr. Bundy has been spending the whole day attempting to help authorities in other states resolve unsolved homicides as far back as fourteen years. Ted I want to let you kind of call your own shots here by way of background, your activities as far as homicides began and about what time. Bundy: 1973. Bill: And the first one that you recall? Bundy: Be May of 1973. Bill: And that was one in the Olympia Tumwater are a? Bundy: Yes. Bill: Just for sake of giving the scope of your involvement and your obvious expertise in speaking from your own experiences and obviously those of others who have shared secrets, if I can use that term, with you. You have been involved, we have talked about this a few months earlier, how many homicides? Bundy: Well, we went over this a little bit earlier and uh, well we came up with 30, I mean we added up, it's late at night like you said but I think that's fairly close figure. Bill: Without trying to pick your brain too much under the duress that you have been in your obvious circumstance and the late hour, would you just try to summarize the, what states they were in, what periods of time before we move into more academic things. Bundy: Well, I just really will summarize it. California, Oregon, Washington, Idaho, Utah, Colorado and Florida, between 1973 and 1978. Bill: Ted's been kind enough to spend the last couple of days and perhaps the next two which he is aware may be the last two that he'll spenp on this earth and he is determined to designate the majority of that time to assisting local law enforcement in resolving cases that he has been involved with. He has been doing it with the purposes of trying to resolve some of the trauma for the victims' families and also to assist local law enforcement authorities in actually understanding the scope of his involvement because there have been a number of cases for which he has been accredited with when it has been quite obvious and apparent that he was not responsible for a number of others \ that he has been suspected of. I think what I will do is just let Ted talk a little bit. I know he is tired and perhaps we will have an opportunity to do this in the future, about his feelings about what he has been involved in, that which was important to him, and molding his behavior, and whatever else he might share with us this evening. Bundy: Yeah, thank you Bill, I don't it's hard to know where to begin we were I wanted for a long time to be able to be in a position, Bill, where I could be absolutely in a position to apply the facts of cases to the rather abstract conversations we've had some time to give some meaning to them. For instance today I thought it was and yesterday -when we talked with Bob Keppel about the Georgann Hawkins case and today when we talked with that Lindgren, sure, about the Julie Cunningham case. I think there were things that came out that I could see had application to things other than the simple solution of these cases, the application to the, the, to other cases solved and unsolved, whether they were attributed to me or to someone else. I could tell that the officer was questioning me in the cunningham case was laboring over the Do you remember that part, Bill, I don't know if you picked up on this or not when, I can't remember his last name, Matt Lindgren, it's a Scandinavian name. I was talking about today's session with the Colorado authorities in the cunningham case and one of the investigators questioning me, questioning my veracity or just trying to learn more or both, they didn't understand why according to him that in the past that I had been believed to be someone who left the victims lying on the ground and did not bury them and why would I come back later. Do you remember that? Bill: Yes, I do. Bundy: And yet he saw some kind of inconsistency which seemed to him to be a, uh, detract from the credibility of the story. Is that your im~ression. He was having a hard ti me letting me trying to explain to him Bill: He was. He was, I think part of that was that he had preconceived ideas as a lot of us in law enforcement do when we think we've got a signature series of murders and we assume that somebody's going to act the same way in every time. But of the thirty that you were involved in, can you have an idea of how many were actually buried? Bundy: Uh, that's a good question. I mean a whole new set of uh, gee ten. Bill: Ten burials of the thirty Bundy: Just roughly, I mean I am just yes. Bill: Ted, one of the things that came up in your efforts to assist the local investigators into resolving some of the -2-.. homicides, particularly on a couple where they didn't have the bodies and you've been working dili~ently, using maps and recollection as to where they can find them. Uh, you shared with us that a couple of the cases, and I am not sure how many, but you opted to sever the heads: from the rictims and, how many was that do you recall of thirty? Bundy: Oh, that's Bill: I realize it's a difficult question because you are a different person now than you were then. But to search back and Bundy: Oh perhaps half a do~en. Bill: So approximately twelve of the thirty had their heads severed. Were there any other body parts severed? Bundy: Oh, you mean generally speaking? Bill: Well, hands, feet, breasts, sexual organs, any other parts, ears, or whatever. Bundy: I think that a lot of that kind of behavior that you're talking about was the kind of mutilation you're talking about was something which is rare in my experience, for me it's something that usually accompanies a high degree of arousal. I mean almost maybe a frenzied kind of state. Bill: Is it a sexual arousal or just generally emotional arousal. Bundy: How to best summarize it. It was even under those conditions it wasn't regular it was something that maybe only happened a couple of times literally I mean that is, but any way it was something that was maybe accompanied a high degree of intoxication and a lot of anger and frustration, perhaps building up a lot of other things and the weeks preceding that murder, I had Bill: Was the mutilation part of the sexual activity at times? Bundy: Again, it was extremely rare and it was not, it was not I know with some people I have heard it is their kind of signature but it was not something like that for me, but in those occasions when jt occurred it was almost, outside of those couple of occasions, I was sort of frenzied, lashing out, it was more of an attempt to transport, conceal, uh, their remains more than anything else. Bill: Now there were a couple of the victims that when they were discovered there were bite marks on them. Was that part of the frenzy or was there some conscious effort there to out of curiosity to experience the biting of the flesh or just to - 3- \ perhaps taking well some kind of sexual play a bit further than you normally would had you not been drinking or frenzied? Bundy: Like I said, you know, we are so close, Bill, to being ab.le to talk about everything and I can, I Jmow what you are talking about, it's a good question. This is a Chiomega case. Let me just ask off the record here what Bundy: Well, let me put it this way, uh, when I back in the mid-70's, I never had the urge or inclination or the idea to bite my victims, and I quite frankly don't know why that would have come about. I know that some people consider that to be something of a strange aberration and, of course what isn •t. But I mean how do these kinds of behaviors going to appear out of nowhere. I mean it is kind of bizarre for instance if you have a case where there are bite marks and, why would, rou know, because they are a means of identification, but at the time of course a person, unsophisticated with those sorts of things-forensics, odontology-else you wouldn't know that. Ah, it's, I think it's a form of aggression obviously but it's a unique form, a lot of people do take it out differently. -4-
TED BUNDY: What would I like to know?
ROBERT KEPPEL: Well, I don't know what you'd like to know. Are you aware this is being taped?
TED BUNDY: Yes. I'm aware.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Do you have any objection?
TED BUNDY: No. No, I don't have any objection.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Why don't you put it on "stop". Ok, the date is 1/20 of '89. Right?
GUARD: I got a message for you. Remind me to give it to you when you leave. It's a telephone call they want you to make after you leave here.
ROBERT KEPPEL: How do you expect us to proeed?
GUARD: Attorney General's Office, Idaho.
TED BUNDY: Ok, how do I expect us to proceed? Well, this is what I hope we can, together, work on.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ok.
TED BUNDY: You know. I think what I need to do is tell you what's going on for me in terms of this practical day-to-day stuff. I mean, hour-to-hour stuff, the pressures I'm under, limitations you might say. You can understand that, that, I'm sure, and appreciate, that this phase two death watch, it obviously puts us under some kind of constraints. But I think we can, we can get started.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ok.
TED BUNDY: What we need to, what I need to do is just, like I say, how to proceed. And I -- first thing I have on my list is to talk about the importance of, at this, at this stage, of, that we have an agreement of confidentiality.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Umrn ha.
TED BUNDY: That I certaintly won't make any statements about this meeting, that Dianna won't, that none of us do until, you know, certainly we, we're much further down the road. Too much has been said already, you know.
ROBERT KEPPEL: I agree.
TED BUNDY: That's killing us.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Now, what kind of confidentiality, length of time are we talking about? Are you talking about to other local law enforcement agencies?
TED BUNDY: Well, we're talking about our meeting here today, ummm, let's say through Monday --
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ummm.
TED BUNDY: And that we have an understanding that any, any statements you make to the public, that any of us make to the public we will, umm, we will advise the other, the other party that we're going to make any kind of statements.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Sure. No problem with that.
TED BUNDY: Ok.
ROBERT KEPPEL: My policy to this point was I wasn't making any statements.
TED BUNDY: Nothing whatsoever. And you certainly have my word on it. And as you know I have not spoken to the press and do not, well, I'm not saying I don't intend to, but I'm not going to talk about this meeting. I don't know if I'm going to say anything or what I'm going to say. It probably depends a lot on what things look like Monday.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ok.
TED BUNDY: But I certainly would not disclose anything that you, that we had an understanding specifically that I was not to disclose.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ok.
TED BUNDY: Well, I'll go with what I have. I mean, I'm the chronic note-taker. Well, I'm looking for us to find a way that we can reach the point where I can start to talk about some things. Ok.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Urnm ha.
TED BUNDY: Ok, my, my feeling is, and I want the reaction, your reaction and Bill's reaction to this, but it's my feeling, and it's, I think it's not unrealistic to say that I simply don't have enough time to tell you, or anybody else all that I, that I know and need to tell you, in the next two or three days, which is basically what we're looking at. I mean, I might as well give you right up front, you know, how I see this in terms of my participation. I mean, I'm, I'm at the point where, you know, you might say, I'm at the point, finally, where I see that I'm going to have to tell you and others everything that I know with regard to so-called unsolved cases. Ok. Now, you can look at it, look at it pessimistically or skeptically or whatever but the fact is I'm at that point and it's an uncomfortable position. I may have obviously waited too long, but I'm here and we're here. So we've got to work with what we've got.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ugh ha.
TED BUNDY: On the other hand, my position is for it to be of benefit, truly a benefit to you and law enforcement and social scientists, I've got to tell you the whole truth and nothing more and nothing less. Certainly nothing less. And Bill knows, Bill's familiar, you're familiar with the FBI studies on serial murder how important it is to get the antecedent behaviors and all that background stuff and put it all together in the context of hardcore data. And I think it's, what I'm after is a total understanding here. Now, I realize people are very skeptical of me and perhaps skeptical of my intentions. And they have good reason to be, I guess. It's, you know, you can look at me as a hypocrite at this point that I've waited so long, but the fact is better late than never. We're at the point where something can be done. And I und~rstand also that I'm at a position where I can't call the shots and will, but I think the main stumbling block here is a lot of people, certainly maybe the most important person under these circumstances is Martinez, is not, does not believe I'm sincere. And, and perhaps one thing that might get things moving is to, I believe, is for me to give you, or to give some law enforcement officer a hardcore, tangible, unimpeachable revelation.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ahh ha.
TED BUNDY: Ok. Which I've never done before -- ok, to a law enforcement officer or to anyone else for that matter. I mean, I'm the only one in possession of this information and that's just the way it is. So, I think that demonstration alone would be evidence of my sincerity because it's a big step, and we'll talk about why if you want, why it's a big step for me, and then that goes in to why I've waited so long to talk about it. I mean, among other things you can imagine it's not easy to talk about. I had selfish motivations, legal motivations, family motivations, any number of things, but the fact of the matter is, umm, I think obviously it's now or never. Well, we either, we either convince the right people it's now or never and that we, to do a proper job for everybody, we're, I'm going to need some time. And I'm not saying you have to do it, but those people want to know about what I've done, I think should be interested, whether or not I have a chance to tell it. And I'm not talking about clemency. I'm not talking about weekend furloughs, you know, I'm not talking about anything unusual except to give usa reasonable period of time for law enforcement to have a systematic and deliberate attempt to know everything I, that I have to tell them. And make use of it. Both in specifically solving cases, finding remains, and in the more general aspects of the kinds of things that Bills unit works with, I mean, in the overall understanding to prevention, detection, that kind of stuff. But off the top, obviously, it's individual cases. I mean, that you, I'm sure, and other law enforcement people, are most interested in. Ok, I'm just rambling on here. Just break in any time because I know that, I'm sure that you, over the years, you have developed some sort of feelings of insite, to say the least, and some, maybe even some animosity you'd like to get off your chest. But, we need to talk very frankly here.
ROBERT KEPPEL: I think the most frank thing that I can tell you is that I'm here to listen.
TED BUNDY: Ok.
ROBERT KEPPEL: I have no idea -- I've got some ideas about scope, and frankly, only represent the state of Washington.
TED BUNDY: I know.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ok. What all these other people do or say I can't have any control over them. I have the support of all the law enforcement agencies in our state and I have the information. I look more as a facilitator to you. Once before we talked in generalities about how this would come about --
TED BUNDY: Ammm ha.
ROBERT KEPPEL: In that I could provide some of the details back about things that may not be so prominent in your mind and you could probably fill in the other blanks that I don't have. But, I need to have an idea of scope in the state of Washington, time frame - - is it better to start backward or forward - - what is the best avenue to pursue. The most active things are probably what people are going to listen to, things that you have longed to have forgotten about are probably not going to be too much listening about. But, most of the people that were involved in those cases, frankly, are either dead themselves, retired, or crazy and they're not around anymore, really, to, you know, support what I'm doing or object to it. And so what all the feelings you may have heard or were communicated to you, it's mostly recent. All the law enforcement agencies that are expressing what they're expressing, there maybe anywhere from ten to twenty years old at the time those things were going on. And so, they're more or less reacting back to what they remember about at the time and there's not very many people that have been around fully active in the profession that long that really have a geninue stake. So you're really at an advantage, I think, that they want to know what you've got to say. And in a frank and candid manner, they are definitely no bull shit. And they say if I say that Ted is being honest with me and up front, or has been, or whatever it might be, they are going to believe me. They also are the kind that, you know, if they don't believe it's true then they will probably wish that you were dead as much as anybody else.
TED BUNDY: Ya, and they might wish that way anyway, but I think that the -- ya. I hear you. I'm following you there. I do know that, for instance, Mike Fisher is scheduled to come in tomorrow and he's, he's been around waiting in the wings, if you will.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Not from the state of Washington.
TED BUNDY: Umm? Oh, ya, excuse me, I know. Ok. All right. I don't want to get, I don't want to drag you into other things, but --
ROBERT KEPPEL: I need to know that when you talk about it, in briefing too that you're not going to exclude anybody on down the road because you talked to Keppel.
TED BUNDY: Well, exclude who? In Washington State?
ROBERT KEPPEL: Anywhere.
TED BUNDY: Oh, no. No, no. But we can't just get any -- everybody in here in the next two or three days.
ROBERT KEPPEL: I agree.
TED BUNDY: And so, you know, better than I, what a good and reliable interrogation consists of. And I think one time you told me you didn't want, when we ever had a chance to talk you didn't want it to end up like Henry Lucas. And believe me, it won't. But, which means that you will, you want to do a better job than the Texas State Rangers did. And so, I think that means -- to me, what that means, and this is what I guess what counts -- is to me that means that we go over things in great detail but not just the incident itself. Ultimately, whether it's to you or to somebody else, because basically it all began in Washington State, that is, that's where I was living, that's where I grew up as a kid --
ROBERT KEPPEL: Right.
TED BUNDY: And that's where I grew up as a young man and those kinds of imagies, impulses and behaviors which ultimately led to the violent behavior, you know, occurred, if you will, in Washington State, the kind of broad understanding that I'm looking for is go ing to come, you know, during those years I lived in Washington State. You know, unfortunately, I guess from your standpoint, it was Washington, basically Washington State where those first crimes, incidences, murders took place.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ahh ha.
TED BUNDY: But, you know, yes. I want -- I won't exclude anybody, but more importantly I want to make a graphic demonstration here, ins ome way, to show my seriousness to you. You can convey it to others in Washington or whoever might ask you confidentially what you think. We haven't had a lot of contact in the past. We wrote some and we meta couple of times and we talked generally. I never gave you -- but I don't think I ever promised you that I'd do something that I haven't done.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Never.
TED BUNDY: Now, I'm not trying to come off the honorable kind of guy, but I mean, this is where we are. I mean, agh, I've got to be able to convince you and others of my sincerity and my resolve.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Well, I'm the one too that can followup the details, information, whatever you have and make sure that these bodies are found or somebody searches or whatever the case might be, corroboration of what you have to say. And probably whatever, every little word that you say will be followed up on.
TED BUNDY: Ahh ha.
ROBERT KEPPEL: So, that's my guarantee to you that hearing what you have to say and going home and say, ya, he did it, ain't good enough. We've got to see if we can find evidence, if we can find bodies, if we can find information that corroborates everything you said, and we might even have to do a little bit of that in the next two and three days.
TED BUNDY: Well, I hear you. I hear you. Yes. Well, no, well, I mean, well, you're talking about, I think what you're saying, Bob, is that - - I hear you. You need information from me that, as they say in the papers, that only the police and perpetrator may have known. Is that what you're saying?
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ya. It doesn't do me any good to not have the information of only what you know.
TED BUNDY: Oh, ya. I -- Well, ya.
ROBERT KEPPEL: And I'm not so sure how much is left, frankly. You could probable enlighten me.
TED BUNDY: Well, it depends.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ya.
TED BUNDY: It depends on a lot of things. It depends on, you know, you've worked out there. You know what the crime scenes are. It depends on construction sites and highways and animals and all that stuff. But to be quite candid with you, there are a number, I'm sure, that are quite well in place.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Well, the most, the most recent ones probably are the best to start with in my mind, unless you have an objection - - the most recent cases.
TED BUNDY: In Washington.
ROBERT KEPPEL: In Washington.
TED BUNDY: Ya.
ROBERT KEPPEL: We have - - I've got all your traveling records. Of course, you probably know when you left too and came back, a couple times, but as far as bodies go that we have found, ok, as late as August of '74
TED BUNDY: Ummm ha.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Is what we have that possibly could be associated with you. And do you agree with that date?
TED BUNDY: Agh, I think I know what you're talking about. Do I agree with that date? August of '74. Well, first of all, you're getting a lit tle bit ahead of me here but I don't mind because I don't want to get picky with you about this although there's a lot of other stuff that I need to let you and Bill know about that's going on. But, let's just deal with that one, for example. I mean, I was talking to one of my advisors not long ago and there were saying the information you can give that will exclude you at some time may be just as much important as cause, you know, I'm linked with stuff that, that's not real.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Right. I agree.
TED BUNDY: And I'm mistaken -- not mistaken that August 1974 date refers to a young woman out of the southwestern part of the state who disappeared and was found on the Pass somewhere, her remains. I may be completely wrong on this.
ROBERT KEPPEL: What I'm talking about -- both, there were two skeletons found together in Clark county. August 2nd was the date that one of the girls was last seen.
TED BUNDY: Right. Ya, I remember. I'm familiar with that. I mean, I've heard of it.
ROBERT KEPPEL: You've heard of it?
TED BUNDY: Right. That's nothing to do with me.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Right. I, I had that feeling but they wanted me to ask anyway and at the time of your gas receipts, it shows you not going that way.
TED BUNDY: Ahh ha.
ROBERT KEPPEL: And you would have had to have gone down there during a certain time period to be eligible to have been the one who knows.
TED BUNDY: ahh ha.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Like, they have a good suspect in that case. There's definitely one that is marginal.
TED BUNDY: Ahh ha.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Technically, if you didn't use your gas card, you could be an eligible suspect. \ '
TED BUNDY: Right. Ya. That's --
ROBERT KEPPEL: You headed to Salt Lake and it was rather obvious route that you commonly take and so it wasn't one where you could deviate and I fool the police in Vancouver --then cutting back over.
TED BUNDY: Well,
ROBERT KEPPEL: There still was the fact there was a possibility.
TED BUNDY: Well, sure. Ya. I obviously -- the gas card, the infamous -- what was it? Standard Oil I believe. Ya, well, God bless them. The old paper trail. No, no, that's, that's nothing to do with me, you know. So that's, that's a step. That was easy.
ROBERT KEPPEL: I thought I'd start with the easy ones. This one will do.
TED BUNDY: Ok.
ROBERT KEPPEL: The more difficult ones however, the ones I know the most about, are the two that are missing on July 14. However, that particular dump site was located in September of '74 has more than just those two there. And what I would kind of like to do is take it by -- go from one dump site location to another, rather than try and do it by victim is by sight. It seems to be more of an orientation and there's more evidence and more information that you might be able to give me about who's there or what you can recall of them, trying to figure out what happened with whom. So, I would like to take it by site. Mainly, first was the Issaquah site cause that's the first one we found. And then the Taylor Mountain site is the second one we found. Do you agree with those two?
TED BUNDY: Well, you're taking it in that order?
ROBERT KEPPEL: Yes.
TED BUNDY: Why not?
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ya, ok.
TED BUNDY: You know, but sight, by chronology. All right. See, I -- as this converstation evolves, I think you'll have a better idea of where I'm at and what I'm trying to do. Maybe you think you do already. I will give you -- we can talk about and will talk about today some of that.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ahh ha.
TED BUNDY: Ok? Ahhh. There's, there's so much, you know. There's a lot going on there, obviously. A lot more that I would like to tell you than about dump sites.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ahh ha.
TED BUNDY: You know. Ummm. But, that's certainly one place, and very obvious place to begin and I have no problem with that. But I want to know from -- right now, what I want to know from you is what are you going -- what are you going to do with this, assuming I tell you it? I mean, not assuming, but what would you do with this today or tomorrow? I tell you what I know about Issaquah. Ok. What do you do?
ROBERT KEPPEL: What I do is that, number 1, it gives me an idea of how credible and frank you're going to be up front to me.
TED BUNDY: Ahh ha.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ok. 'Cause every law enforcement officer out there looks at me for, you know, is Bundy bullshitting us or not?
TED BUNDY: I hear you. I know.
ROBERT KEPPEL: You know the guys that follow me in here are going to be asking me. And I would just like to be able to say, "hey, he was just and as right as anybody.
TED BUNDY: I just don't -- you know, here's my concern is that we not - - I have no problem with you telling others about this. That's, that's probably part of the idea. But, what -- what I'm concerned is this stuff getting to the news media Bundy is telling everybody everything. At this point. I mean, today or tomorrow or Sunday. Too prematurely to start this again fueling the controversy which is already out of hand.
ROBERT KEPPEL: I am not saying anything about this.
TED BUNDY: Ok. All right. Well. Let's just do one here. I mean, let's start. Obviously we have to start somewhere. And I think it might, we might, as a long shot -- it's pretty long shot -- that you might be able to get something out of it. At least some of that so called tangible evidence that might be of some value not only to you but to others. And maybe a bit of information, even if you don't find anything else, that might be of some value to families.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ahh ha.
TED BUNDY: Ok. So we'll do -- I understand that at the Issaquah site - - which I could describe to you, will desribe to you if you want, there were three, remains of three individuals found, two identified and one not, cause of the, the, so few, the kinds of remains that were found were so few and unidentifiable. Ok?
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ahh ha.
TED BUNDY: What do you want? Where this --
ROBERT KEPPEL: I'd like to know --
TED BUNDY: Description of the site first? How to get there. I mean, you just don't, you just don't make this up. Right?
ROBERT KEPPEL: I want to know what the site is.
TED BUNDY: Ya. Well, the old Highway 90, I understand which is no longer there, I mean, not like it used to be. It's a -- but at that time when you were corning up from Issaquah you went froma basically a freeway, you rose up out of Issaquah into the foothills and you rounded a bend and it turned into the old 90 off of the freeway. And about a mile and a half, two miles beyond that bend -- this is 20-year-old, 15-year-old stuff Bill, Bob, so be mindful or it. This is not divided highway at that time, so you could turn clear across the highway. You could make a left hand turn going East. You could turn clear across the highway on the risk of getting a ticket, I suppose, and go North across the highway and turn across unto any side road. So if you drove North, if I was to drive North up and going East on 90, about mile, let's say more or less up that stretch of road there's a, a kind of a, used to be, a -- is it called an access road? Not an access road. That's not the word I'm looking for. It's a side road, small dirt side road. You would turn left going East. You would enter the side road, go across the ravine or over a ravine that was between the side road and the highway, then turn, sort of go left again and go in back down toward Issaquah on the side road, pass underneath some, at the time, utility or power transmission lines were there -- creek, that was a creek down in the ravine between 90 and the side road, this little dirt side road. Maybe half a mile, quarter of a mile down this little side road if you turn, if you kept on following it all the way down it would join 90 again but if you turned just about the time it reached 90 again you could -- there's another little dirt road that went up the hill, across some railroad tracks, wound up the side of the hill. Just on the other side of the railroad tracks about 20 yards up there's a little grassy are a. And so, and you know, some scrub growth. Old alders and what-have-you. A little path that ran parallel to the railroad tracks and then up into the woods, running sort of West. The dirt road went past this grassy are a I just mentioned and went up the hill maybe, maybe it went up half a mile. It wort of meandered up the side of the hill, hilly are a. Also in the are a, maybe fifty yards to the East, down into another ravine, was an old abandoned cabin. Ring a bell? Think. Well, so. Let's see.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Where should we have found the bodies?
TED BUNDY: Oh, well, lord knows where, but the little creatures up there did. The animals would have done. But I think -- well, let's, let me start with one.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ok.
TED BUNDY: Let me start this way. The unidentified remains -- gee, this is where I'm a little bit -- the presence of the officers down here is a little bit unnerving. Some of it, some of this stuff I don't mind talking about because they wouldn't know from Adam. But names, I can write it down. I can whisper it to you or whatever. I just don't want the police getting any kind of names at this point. Ya. Ya. And then I'll just write the name down for you. All right? Ok. Did you see that? This is -- the name that I just wrote down was Georgann Hawkins. Ummm. Up that dirt road, beyond the grassy are a. I'll try to trace it here on a piece of paper. How about that? That might help a little. I'm working from some pretty old memories. Well. Let's do it this way. Here's the grassy are a. Here's the road coming up -- this, trees. To the North, Northwest of this grassy are a -- Ok. Oh, ya, great. Let me try to orient myself here. Gees.
ROBERT KEPPEL: The only reason we have this picture is there was a big suit over this property going on and they took this picture on March 20, '74.
TED BUNDY: Ya.
ROBERT KEPPEL: It's just overheads.
TED BUNDY: Is it still relatively undisturbed?
ROBERT KEPPEL: Yup. That's March -- well, no. About right here the railroad track is gone and the freeway, right about where the railroad track is.
TED BUNDY: In their construction how, did they disturb up the hillside much?
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ya. Of course, there's some of that hillside left.
TED BUNDY: Well, I'm trying to find. I mean, let me try to pinpoint here some -- it's a little bit harder, you know, not having seen it -- I think what I'm talking to you about is that -- well, it's hard to pinpoint it like I need to do. I could show you what I mean by that are a, I think.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Right in here?
TED BUNDY: Ya. Now, up. God. You stop when I tell you. Go up the road. Keep going. Right about there, more or less, in and about 10 yards.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Now, was that a flat are a or was--?
TED BUNDY: No. It's rocky, very hilly.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ok. Cause as you go up into about this are a, come up the hill, where you could drive a car and get off the road -- you remember where that was?
TED BUNDY: I don't know cause I, I -- see, back to the grassy are a. I parked there and walked up.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Parked there and walked up.
TED BUNDY: I never -- I didn't drive. So you see, I don't know if you went up that far.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ya, I did.
TED BUNDY: But if --
ROBERT KEPPEL: Oh, ya, we were two miles --
TED BUNDY: Ok. Well. In that location that I just described, I don't know what it's like today, but you should find some more that, of -- we can get into details as to why --
ROBERT KEPPEL: Why that are a?
TED BUNDY: Ya. But here, this is where I get a little bit antsy, not about you but it's just being overheard. There's some of this stuff that gets pretty tough. I can write it down, whisper it. I have no problem with that. It's just that I'm -- I have to draw the line somewhere. With being overheard. At this point.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Why don't you pull this mike closer to your part, are a and try that.
TED BUNDY: Ya. Ok.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Cause it will pick you up ok.
TED BUNDY: All right. Do you have a meter on this? Isa meter running on it?
ROBERT KEPPEL: No.
TED BUNDY: You can't tell where we are on the tape?
ROBERT KEPPEL: Well, I can tell 'cause I can see. I can see where the tape is.
TED BUNDY: Ya. All right. Oh, ya. Let's try something else first. Ok?
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ok, it's running now. That's what I'm saying. If you move that over closer to you, your --
TED BUNDY: Ya. I will when I'm -- once --
ROBERT KEPPEL: It doesn't matter whether you push it or not.
TED BUNDY: But once I get my -- I've got to get my elbow up here to be able to write to you first. You could read any of this?
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ummm.
TED BUNDY: Well, if you can't, Dianna can, I think.
ROBERT KEPPEL: What you might try is whispering it and, you know, I think the tape will pick it up.
TED BUNDY: To you? Through here.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ya. At the same time write it.
TED BUNDY: Can you hear that?
ROBERT KEPPEL: I can hear it, ya.
TED BUNDY: Ok. I just wrote, I just said that the Hawkins girl's head was severed and taken up the road about twenty-five to fifty yards and buried in a location about ten yards west of the road on a rocky hillside. Did you hear that?
ROBERT KEPPEL: Umm ha. Ya.
TED BUNDY: Ugh?
ROBERT KEPPEL: Where is the rest of her at?
TED BUNDY: Down.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Down the are a?
TED BUNDY: Ya. Where the others were.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ok. All right.
TED BUNDY: I give you that because - - I mean, we ta-- I felt that it might be worthwhile to start there because, one, that hadn't been discovered before.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Right.
TED BUNDY: Ok. That was more or less a question mark, agh, to a point. You know, we all know what the suspicions were, but basically -- and so those people, the, you know, among other things, the family there might be able to -- I don't know if you still even have those separate, unidentified remains. But in any case, I think that was a good place to start.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ok. From that point, was there damage to those remains? What instrument did you use?
TED BUNDY: Who?
ROBERT KEPPEL: Hawkins.
TED BUNDY: Ya. But not anything you would have found that I know of. If you'd found you'd have found it probably, probably you'd have found damage to the head.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Right.
TED BUNDY: The jaw in particular probably broken. But if you'd found that you'd have known who it was. But, anyway, I don't know -- is there any reason you asked me that question?
ROBERT KEPPEL: What I wondered -- agh, were similar things done to Ott and Naslund?
TED BUNDY: We're getting a little bit ahead of ourselves but I will say this much. No. Well, wait a minute. Now that's a good question. You know. Agh, not similar things. Not exactly. I don't want to beg the question, but it's different. Certainly not as extensive I would imagine, in those two instances as opposed to the Hawkins girl.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ok, what weapons did you use on the Hawkins girl?
TED BUNDY: (Writing]
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ok.
TED BUNDY: Ya. This is it. That and
ROBERT KEPPEL: Can you say that word to me?
TED BUNDY: Yes.
ROBERT KEPPEL: How was that done?
TED BUNDY: Well, it -- we can go through it, step-by-step. So, a couple days later.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ok. Why don't we take Hawkins and go through it step by step.
TED BUNDY: Ok. Again, I wasn't specifically prepared to talk about this today, so I'm, I know I'm going to --
ROBERT KEPPEL: Give me an idea.
TED BUNDY: I'm just going to give you whatever comes to mind and I'm sure that, you know, it's not everything.
ROBERT KEPPEL: We -- to figure out, you know, the elements of Hawkins, then we can get on to the others. I just want to hear, specifically, the events that happened with the Hawkins girl. The facts I have are basically what's in the newspaper.
TED BUNDY: Ya.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Missing from one location. Never found.
TED BUNDY: Umm ha.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Tell me about how she was taken, time and events, what were the circumstances at the time, how you got out there, what was the time period inbetween, events, incidents.
TED BUNDY: Ok. Let me give it a moments reflection here. Ya. I'll talk real low to you. You can still hear me? Can you hear me Bill? You can't?
TED BUNDY: Ok, ya, well, ya. I, ok. Ya.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Pull the recorder over a little.
TED BUNDY: Ya. Trying -- I don't even -- I can't remember what day, I can't remember what night of the week it was. Can you hear me Dianna? Thursday night I believe. I don't know. 11 to 12. Probably closer to 12 o'clock on a warm, Seattle, May night. I think it was clear. The weather had been fairly good. I was -- at about midnight that day - - in the alleyway, behind, like, I may have my streets wrong here, but in an alleyway -- did you hear that?
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ahhh ha.
TED BUNDY: Behind, agh, this is near the sorority and fraternity houses that would have been 45th, 46th, 47, 47, somewhere in there, in back of the houses across the alley and across the other side of the block there was the Congregational Church, I believe. And some parking lots in back of the sorority and fraternity houses. I was moving up the alley, using a brief case and some crutches and the young woman walked down. I saw her round the North end of the block into the alley and stop for a moment and then keep on walking down the alley toward me. And about half way down the block I encountered her and asked her to help me carry the brief case, which she did and we walked back up the alley, across the street, turned right on sidewalk in front of, I think, the fraternity house on the corner there, rounded the corner to the left going North on 47th. Well, midway in the block there used to be a, you know, one of those parking lots they used to make out of burned down houses in that are a. The University would turn them into parking lots, instant parking lots. There was a parking lot there, dirt, dirt surface, no lights, and my car was parked there.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Why don't you just stop that tape.
TED BUNDY: We were to the car. All right, a, basically when we reached the car, what happened was I knocked her unconscious with the crowbar.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Where did you have that?
TED BUNDY: By the car.
ROBERT KEPPEL: outside?
TED BUNDY: Outside, in back of the car.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Did she see it?
TED BUNDY: No, and then, there were some handcuffs there, along with the crowbar.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Along with what?
TED BUNDY: Crowbar.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Huh ha.
TED BUNDY: And I handcuffed her and put her in the driver's, I mean the passenger's side of the car and drove away.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Was she alive or dead then?
TED BUNDY: Oh, no. No, she was quite, not -- she was unconscious but she was very much alive.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Huh ha. Ok. What happened next?
TED BUNDY: Well, wait a minute, hold it.
GUARD: Excuse me, just --
TED BUNDY: Agh, we drove, what with that? Drove down the alley to 50th, I believe, NE 50th or, you know, the street going east and west, turn left. Went to the freeway. 5, is it? It's been a long time.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ahh ha.
TED BUNDY: Anyway, freeway. And then went South on the freeway to turn off on the floating bridge, the, that is, the old floating bridge, 90.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ahh ha.
TED BUNDY: She was conscious at this time. I mean, she had regained consciousness at this time, basically. Well, there's a lot of incidental things that I'm just not getting into, you know, not talking about, cause they are just incidental anyway. Went across the bridge, across Mercer Island, East, past Issaquah up the hill, down the road and up to the grassy are a.
ROBERT KEPPEL: How did you get across I-90?
TED BUNDY: When? You mean, off the
ROBERT KEPPEL: When you're driving Eastbound on I-90 --
TED BUNDY: Right.
ROBERT KEPPEL: There's a barricade in the middle of that road.
TED BUNDY: Not then there wasn't.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Huh?
TED BUNDY: Like I told you, you could turn, at that time, you could make a left-hand turn. Illegal as it may have been because of the double yellow line. I mean, you could -- I mean, that was a crazy -- I mean, talk about craziness. I mean, if there had been a State Patrolman there he'd probably arrested me. Right?
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ahh ha.
TED BUNDY: But, you know, nevertheless, at that time there was no divider running down the middle of that road, at that point. I didn't tell you -- I know. I mean, you're right. There would have been pretty dam hard to do it if there was. But all you had to do was just make an illegal left-hand turn all the way across -- well, the Westbound, the two Westbound lanes of 90 and right into that side road that ran parallel to 90.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ok. What happened after that?
TED BUNDY: Well, parked, took her out of the van and took the handcuffs off her and --
ROBERT KEPPEL: Took her out of what?
TED BUNDY: Took her out of the car.
ROBERT KEPPEL: And you're driving what?
TED BUNDY: A Volkswagon.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ok. You said van.
TED BUNDY: Did I say? Well, no I didn't -- I'm sorry if I, I didn't -- it wasn't a--
ROBERT KEPPEL: When you said something before that it was a van.
TED BUNDY: Well, ok. Well, it wasn't. It was a Volkswagon and agh, agh, took her out of the car. I think I said I took the handcuffs off. Maybe that sounded like "van. " Anyway. Agh. And, gee, this is probably the hardest part. I don't know. I don't know, we're talking sort of abstract, not abstractly before, but, well, we're getting into some, we're getting right down to it. And I will talk about it. I hope you understand it's not something I find easy to talk about. And, after all this time. [Big sigh] One of the things that makes it a little bit, well, one of the things that makes it difficult is that, at this point she was quite lucid, talking about things, about some - - it's funny, it's not funny but it's odd the kinds of things people will say and under those circumstances. And she thought, she said that she thought that she had a Spanish test the next day and she thought that I had taken her to help tutor me for her Spanish test. It's kind of odd. Odd thing to say. Anyway. [Sigh] The long and short of it, I mean, I'm, I'll, I'm going to try and make this, get there by degrees. The long and short of it was that I again knocked her unconscious and strangled her and drug her into, about ten yards into the small grove of trees that was there.
ROBERT KEPPEL: What did you strangle her with?
TED BUNDY: Cord.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Cord?
TED BUNDY: An old, and old piece of, an old piece of rope.
ROBERT KEPPEL: This something you brought there with you?
TED BUNDY: Ya.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ya.
TED BUNDY: Something that was in the car.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ok. Then what happened?
TED BUNDY: Then I packed the car up. By this time it was almost dawn. It was just about dawn. The sun was corning up. And I went through my usual, I say usual routine. I went through this routine where I was just absolutely, I would go through this but on this particular morning I was just absolutely, again, just shocked, kind of scared to death, shocked, horrified about -- And I went down the road throwing everything that I'd had. The briefcase, out the window. Throwing the briefcase, the crutches, the rope, the clothes, just tossing them out the window. I just had, I guess was just, I was in a sheer state of panic. Just absolute horror, you know. It's like, at that point in time, consciousness of what has really happened. It's like you break out of a fever or something. I would, that is. And so, I would -- I drove North on 90, East on 90, some point throwing articles out the window as I went, articles of clothing. Shoes, etc.
ROBERT KEPPEL: When did you remove those?
TED BUNDY: What?
ROBERT KEPPEL: The shoes, clothing?
TED BUNDY: Well, after we got out of the car, initially.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ahh ha.
TED BUNDY: Well, I skipped over some stuff there and we'll have to get back to it sometime, but I don't feel, I just, it's just too hard for me to talk about it right now.
ROBERT KEPPEL: So, what Do you remember what clothes she was wearing that night?
TED BUNDY: Yup. Agh, a pair of white patten leather clogs, blue slacks, some kind of halter top of which she had a shirt tied in a knot.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ok. And where were these deposited?
TED BUNDY: Along the roadside.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ahh ha.
TED BUNDY: I mean, well, not right along 90. Agh, I went East to the infamous Taylor Mountain Road. What's, what highway is that?
ROBERT KEPPEL: 18.
TED BUNDY: 18. Turn right. Went South again and at some point, south of Taylor Mountain a lot of that stuff went out of the car. Down the, down embankments and what have you.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Embankments?
TED BUNDY: Ya.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Did you have to pull out to do it or?
TED BUNDY: No, ya. I would stop, pull over to the side of the road. At this time it was pretty light, and just tossed it out. Well, you see, I mean, I didn't -- there was sometimes I would do that and sometimes I wouldn't. It would -- at this point in time I was so frantic, so panicked, so whatever, about what had happened that I would just had to get every reminder of that incident out of the car as quick as possible. Didn't want to take it home, didn't want to be around. I was just --
ROBERT KEPPEL: Do you throw away some of your own stuff?
TED BUNDY: Oh, sure. Ya. I threw away the briefcase. And the crutches and all that stuff. And the crowbar, everything. The handcuffs, everything. I'd get mad at myself a few weeks later because I'd have to go out and buy another pair. I mean, it's not comical but that's what would happen.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ahh ha. Oh, now, just prior, now that you've had a while to think about Georgann Hawkins, is there something you can tell me about her that probably only you know and we know?
TED BUNDY: Well,
ROBERT KEPPEL: I mean, the Spanish test is pretty darn good if you ask me.
TED BUNDY: That's what she said. Unless she was halucinating. She said everybody called her George.
ROBERT KEPPEL: George?
TED BUNDY: That's what she said. or how about that she used a safety pin to pin, because apparently her blue slacks were a bit too big.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ahh ha.
TED BUNDY: Or, that's about all I know.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ok.
TED BUNDY: I mean, I suppose there's, you know, I'm sure there are bits and pieces that will come back to me, but there wasn't a lot, obviously there wasn't a lot of converstation. But, that was -- that's what comes to mind.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ok. How about the other two sets of remains in that are a?
TED BUNDY: Well, [long silence)
ROBERT KEPPEL: Oh, one other thing.
TED BUNDY: Hmmm.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Oh, one other thing, about Georgann Hawkins. When did that happen?
TED BUNDY: When?
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ya.
TED BUNDY: Well, May of --
ROBERT KEPPEL: I know when she disappeared on June 12th.
TED BUNDY: Oh.
ROBERT KEPPEL: I know when but I want to know --
TED BUNDY: June?
ROBERT KEPPEL: about this, the severing, when that?
TED BUNDY: Oh, oh, oh, oh, that. Oh, excuse me. I was thinking of May. See. Agh, my memory. Oh, let's see. I'd say about three days later.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Three days later?
TED BUNDY: Just --
ROBERT KEPPEL: Had you gone back there before that date in time?
TED BUNDY: Ahh ha.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ahh ha.
TED BUNDY: The next day.
ROBERT KEPPEL: The next day. What did you do the next day?
TED BUNDY: Just went back to check out the site, make sure nothing had been left there. See, you know, the feeling is I reached the point and half expected that she might not even be there. That somehow I hadn't even killed her. If you will. RI<: Ahh.
TED BUNDY: So, ugh. So I went back -- Oh, ya. Removed things like the rope. I -- no, no. I had already done that. Can't remember if I found anything there or not. But I wanted to make sure. Oh, that's what it was. I -- talk about details coming back. I couldn't find one of the shoes, so I thought it was there. But it wasn't. So I went back. This is the next day. Got on my bicycle, rode back to that little parking lot. I knew there were police all over the place by that time, but I was kind of nervous because -- and I'll tell you why in a minute. Cause I'd left -- and my car had been parked there so somebody may have seen it. Now if something was found there it might connect me. So I went back to that parking lot and found both pierced, the pierced earring and the shoe laying in the parking lot at about 5:00 in the afternoon. So I surrupticiously gathered them up and rode off.
ROBERT KEPPEL: After the police had checked that are a?
TED BUNDY: Well, you can tell me. I'd seen them, I'd seen whole streams of them driving around all over the place but there were concentrating on places like the park, nearby park. I don't know if -- I be you -- they couldn't have looked in that parking lot and missed the patten, white patten leather clog and the two white pierced earrings. Hoops. Little hoops.
ROBERT KEPPEL: That was discovered by you the next day?
TED BUNDY: Ya. Around 5:00, 6:00.
ROBERT KEPPEL: 6:00 in the afternoon?
TED BUNDY: Ya.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ok. So you went back? Oh, excuse me. When you -- after you left that scene that night --
TED BUNDY: Ya.
ROBERT KEPPEL: And went toward Taylor Mountain, did you go back to Taylor Mountain knowing what was there?
TED BUNDY: No. No, I wasn't going back. I just drove, I just drove by there. That's all. It was on the highway.
ROBERT KEPPEL: You drove by there.
TED BUNDY: I didn't even slow down.
ROBERT KEPPEL: All right.
TED BUNDY: Ya. That was really not on my mind at that time.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ok. So, what happened in the next couple days?
TED BUNDY: Well, again, the reason that I was so nervous, and this might be something you could plug into if that's what you want to do, or utilize, the reason I was so nervous about anything like that being found in that parking lot was that no more than two weeks before, that I had been doing, using the same modus operandi in the same neighborhood in the, in front now of the same sorority house that Georgann Hawkins disappeared from. I encountered a girl going out the door and asked her to help me. Walked her all the way to that lot, 11:00 on a Friday night. And I was, I was drunk and I was just babbling on and I told her I worked in Olympia, that I lived in a rooming house. I mean, I was just, I was horrified later on. But,
ROBERT KEPPEL: Were you drunk when you got Hawkins?
TED BUNDY: Yes, more or less, but yes. That was basically part of the MO at that time. Ya. But, I reached all the way to the car, and this happened, would happen sometimes, and just " no, I don't want to do it.'' I said, "thank you. See you later." And she walked away. But after, after the Hawkins thing I was, you know, just paronoid as hell that this girl would say "you know, something weird happened to mea couple weeks ago. This guy came along with crutches and asked me to help him. He took me to a Volkswagen and said he worked in Olympia and lived here in the University District." How many people could that apply to? So, there you are.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ok. How about getting back, to going back to that scene?
TED BUNDY: Again?
ROBERT KEPPEL: Getting back to going back to that scene.
TED BUNDY: Ok. Well, I went back the next day and I went back about three days later; to do that business that we talked about earlier and went up the roadway with it. It was sort of a crude attempt to disguise the identity or avoid, I mean, the identification of the remains as such. I don't know. In retrospect it doesn't -- it sounds pretty incoherent, but that's what was motivating it at the time. And then maybe about a week to two weeks later I went back for a third time. Ya.
ROBERT KEPPEL: What for?
TED BUNDY: Again, just to see what was going on. You know, there's a lot of psychological stuff going on here that we just don't have time for. I mean, we could spend days explaining it. I mean, there is a, there is a, there is an aspect here of, you know, the possessiveness Bill's talked about and I'm sure you're familiar with, you know, the after effects. This is why I'm so keen on the staking out of crime scenes of this type afterwards. Fascination with death, necrophilia, all that. But, of course, after -- you know, in June, after a week, it's, you know, what with all the local, the wildlife, that there's not much left.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Were you going back to that scene to commit sex acts?
TED BUNDY: Well, I don't want to talk about that right now. We will talk about it some day, but I don't have -- we don't not, really have enough to give you the background on that. I want us to work into that.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ok. All right. Now, did you actually put, always carry this little hacksaw with you?
TED BUNDY: Oh, it was in the tool kit. I had a metal tool kit in the front of the -- the trunk, such as it is, in the Volkswagon. It had everything in there. I mean, you know, all the tools you need to repair Volkswagons. Just like any tool kit, metric stuff.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ahh ha.
TED BUNDY: And in there was a hacksaw. And also a little shovel, little army shovel.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Did you ever bury anybody?
TED BUNDY: Oh, yes. Ya. I mean, in my -- ya. In my, you might say, my more coherent -- not coherent, that's -- when I was really going all out to -- and took my time. Ya. I did. I mean, it's quite clear. I mean, there's no question about -- almost without question, those who have been found were not and those who haven't been found were buried.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ahh ha.
TED BUNDY: It's that simple.
ROBERT KEPPEL: How many people do you figure are buried in the state of Washington?
TED BUNDY: A couple. Just a couple.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Do you know who?
TED BUNDY: Well, I remember the name of -- you know, I can't remember names, most of the names I don't remember. A couple, like the one we were just talking about, the name is -- it comes back to me. But, -- let me think. One, two -- that's all. Two. Ya. I don't remember the name on this, on the other one. I included in the two Hawkins, only because it was a partial kind of thing. Plus one other.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Who was the other one?
TED BUNDY: I don't remember the name and I don't want to -- I mean, you know, I don't want to guess.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Is it one during that period of time, from say January through --
TED BUNDY: This would have been in early '84, '74.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Early '74? A girl from Olympia? How about the Evergreen College girl?
TED BUNDY: Oh, ya. That's right. Ya.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ya?
TED BUNDY: Ya.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Where is she?
TED BUNDY: Well, she's up in the mountains.
ROBERT KEPPEL: What mountains?
TED BUNDY: Up in the cascades, you know.
ROBERT KEPPEL: And she's actually buried in the ground?
TED BUNDY: Well, -- how did that work? This -- this is something that happened piece by piece, strange as this may sound. I'm trying to remember exactly where it all happened. That was -- that's something we're going to have to talk about in the future, but that was, I don't know that I was evermore incoherent and I -- I mean, that night is like some kind of dream, you know, very blurry are a, nightmarish and, I have trouble piecing it together. But we will -- it's going to take mea while to work on that one.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ok.
TED BUNDY: I'd had a -- as I sometimes had a bottle of wine in the car and was just, among other things extremely drunk.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Just so I can get an idea about timing as far as in that two hours or hour. Can we get some sort of feeling, if you can't remember names, as to maybe timing or events or something that will tell me -- give me an idea of how many people we need to talk about, locations, things like that so I can get an idea of the scope?
TED BUNDY: Ahh ha. Let's see. Ya. In Washington?
ROBERT KEPPEL: Right.
TED BUNDY: Ya.
ROBERT KEPPEL: We've got the one from Oregon up there too, but that's our case too.
TED BUNDY: Well, let's see. I think it's -- I think it'll be eleven.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Eleven altogether?
TED BUNDY: Ya.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ok. Ok. Which areas? Which jurisdictions or which disappearance sites or -- do you remember any names of anybody?
TED BUNDY: Well, sure. I remember a lot of it. Sure.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Well, give me an idea of which ones you're talking about.
TED BUNDY: [long silence) Well, I could give you probably most of the occas-- names, or some names and some locations.
ROBERT KEPPEL: All right.
TED BUNDY: -- That don't have names.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ok.
TED BUNDY: Ok. But this is basically what I want to avoid.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ok.
TED BUNDY: Putting myself into a position where we more or less run through the standard litany of, you know, the old -- of the - - you know, of the victims and without the depth of information and the precedent and anticedent stuff, what happened before, during and after, what was going in my mind, and that's why I feel that I want -- I'd like to cloth these names in some kind of reality, even though it be a distorted reality. And I'm worried that I'm -- I won't bullshit you - - I'm worried that I -- that we just run through it like this and I can understand your curiosity, believe me, but we run through it like this and we leave ourselves open to the temptation to leave it at that.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Right. One of the things that I'm concerned about is time.
TED BUNDY: I know.
ROBERT KEPPEL: And I'd like to know - - you haven't finished everything about Georgann Hawkins either.
TED BUNDY: No.
ROBERT KEPPEL: So we've got ten more to go.
TED BUNDY: That's right.
ROBERT KEPPEL: So, I'm thinking about areas, time, whether I need to stay with the rest of that first site or whether I need to move on to a different site or something I don't even know about that I could corrobotate fast in the next couple of days. I mean, I know of the basic six. Now I know about seven, one that was missing that we didn't know was there. And the Donna Manson girl from Thruston County that I -- that's all I know about so far from you. Now I need to know what other time frames you're talking about and who, if it's other jurisdictions and stuff like that, that I would like just to get some perspective on cause I'd like to get as much details on each one as I can.
TED BUNDY: Ya. I can --
ROBERT KEPPEL: I don't want to go for two hours and say, well, I have no idea what the scope is. Cause if anybody asks me what the scope is, somebody of importance, I'd like to know what it is.
TED BUNDY: Ya. I don't blame you.
ROBERT KEPPEL: I mean, you and I have talked for hours already and we can keep going counting the other hours and letters and everything. I mean, the scope [end of tape].
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ya, it's ok now. But what I need to know is if I have to fight for more time, I want to know if I have to fight or not. What I have to fight about. I know the details of things that are here, but maybe some other people don't have as much to talk about as I do. I don't know. It depends on what they have. So I know about those eight. And your're talking about three others. How far back in time? You got '74, January '74 through July of '74. Are there more within that time frame that I don't know about in the state of Washington
TED BUNDY: Ya. Yes, there are. Let's -- I hear you Bob. What I'm trying to do is just to know, for my own self, what is a demonstration that I am serious about this. You have, you have legitimate need to know it all. And you want, of course, you want to start with that which is most obvious, that is, the identies and numbers, dates, and that's important. There's a lot more important stuff. And I've never spoken to anybody about this and I, and it's, I think, for me, it was a, it's an important first confession of it's kind, not that I'm asking, I'm not asking for a, any kind of public service awards but this, the reality is that that's, you know, that's what it was for me.
ROBERT KEPPEL: I guess what I need then, I want to eliminate any suggestions of rather than me throwing out stuff for you to say, you know, this is what we need to talk about or not, like the August 2nd, if there's only eleven, then that's fine. I don't want to do any guess work. I mean, I've got girls like in 1971 at WSU that's been murdered that I'm curious about. I've got two stewardesses.
TED BUNDY: Ya, I can tell you -- I can tell you -- ya, we can do it that way if you'd like, too. And maybe in some ways that's easier. I can tell you what, that's, you know, what I'm not involved in. You know, if you have a list of that type in your head.
ROBERT KEPPEL: There's a gal up in Bellingham in the river strangled in 1970.
TED BUNDY: No.
ROBERT KEPPEL: There's a gal in 1971, Thurston County.
TED BUNDY: No.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Not that far back. Nothing that far back?
TED BUNDY: 1972.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Two girls in Millerslyvania State Park in 1973.
TED BUNDY: Ya, I think you once showed me that.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ahh ha.
TED BUNDY: No. No. No.
ROBERT KEPPEL: There's a little girl in Tacoma.
TED BUNDY: Which one?
ROBERT KEPPEL:
TED BUNDY: No. Absolutely not. And one thing I'd like to do on some of these, I mean, on all of this if it's possible, and I think it's important. It's important for me. It's important for credibility because there's so much question about my credibility. You know, I would like, I would like to be polygraphed, have a polygraph examination if that can be done in these kinds of things. Do something to enhance the credibility. Not just, you know, specifics, I mean, of the specifics of course, but of my overall account of these things. Cause I want it to be believable. I just don't want it -- I don't want to get into a Henry Lee Lucas kind of deal on my - - I have precious little going for me now, but what I do have is I've got to build some credibility.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Right. Ok. Now. Up on Queen Ann hill.
TED BUNDY: But, ya, I must -- so Umm?
ROBERT KEPPEL: You don't know anything about those?
TED BUNDY: No.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Absolutely not.
TED BUNDY: No. No. I have no hestitation about talking about things that I have done. No hestitation about telling you about what I haven't done. Ok. So if I tell you something - - I may not tell you something - - I might not tell you something right now or every single detail right now, but if I tell you something, you can rely on it. And when I say, yes, I did it or no, I didn't do something, that's the way it is.
ROBERT KEPPEL: You never lied to me. No reason.
TED BUNDY: No. No reason to start now.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Corroborate a lot of what you say. And you've already given me corroboration on one.
TED BUNDY: Sure. I could give you corroboration on -- listen. I know what you're pushing for and I don't blame you. This still working?
ROBERT KEPPEL: Still working.
TED BUNDY: You sort through your litany of cases, go through your mind. You want to pick -- I don't want to get in a position of telling you, but pick one more case, other than the Issaquah, the other two Issaquah cases. I don't -- I just - - that you want to know about, and we'll talk about it. I just -- that you want some corroboration on and I'll give you one more. I mean, we can talk about one more if that's, if you feel comfortable about doing that. I don't know.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Urnrn, have we got the time frame down of when things started in Washington? Are we talking about?
TED BUNDY: Yup.
ROBERT KEPPEL: I mean, the time frame is when?
TED BUNDY: '74.
ROBERT KEPPEL: 1974.
TED BUNDY: Right. Well, ya. I mean, the actual. There were several attempts leading up to that in '73, '72. But no murders.
ROBERT KEPPEL: How does the order of things -- I mean, the public's order of things and your order is obviously something different because there's some in here that we don't know about that is in the order someplace. And we're -- we're talking about one girl that lived,, just a couple blocks away from where you lived. don't know if that's the one you want me to talk about.
TED BUNDY: Well, do you want to -- is that the one you want to talk about?
TED BUNDY: Ya.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ok. Cause the order of things are kind of like -- Healy, Manson, Rancourt, Ball, Hawkins, Ott and Naslund. That's eight. Plus Parks, is nine. Are you counting her as one of your eleven?
TED BUNDY: No. No. She's not in that. See, I didn't -- that's not one. No.
ROBERT KEPPEL: So now you're talking about probably three others that I am not familiar with.
TED BUNDY: Yup. Ya.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Are they in King County jurisdiction?
TED BUNDY: Well, let's see. Umnmm. One is and the others aren't. That's the way it is. Ya.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Do you want to talk about the events leading up to Linda Healy, the first one on Taylor Mountain? The are a that we have on the record?
TED BUNDY: [Sigh) Go ahead, what do you have to say? [Talking to some female near him]
UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: [undistinguishable)
TED BUNDY: Ya. Ya, well, that's important and I think that -- here's what I'll do. I mean, here's what I'd like to do today. Agh --
UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN:?
TED BUNDY: No, but I appreciate any advise I can get.
UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN:?
TED BUNDY: I know. Well, let's talk about it then.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Cause I think I can corroborate a lot about the Taylor Mountain incidents and you might be able to lead me to the stuff there. There are some things about Ott and Naslund too you could probably corroborate a lot of things with and --
TED BUNDY: Well, Bill, I could corroborate something on virtually everyone of the -- I mean, almost without a doubt on everyone of these, in one way or another. I mean, that's the -- I don't think anybody doubts that I've done some bad things. The question is what, of course, and how and maybe even most importantly why. And I, I'm not --
ROBERT KEPPEL: Well, most of the people that are coming here to, you know, as far as the law enforcement people, are looking at which cases are you talking about, what can you help us with in finding other bodies, if there's any other physical evidence out there like bicycles, clothes, backpack, what happened to that kind of stuff that's missing.
TED BUNDY: Ya.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Basic information that you're definitely the one.
TED BUNDY: That's right.
ROBERT KEPPEL: -- talking about this stuff.
TED BUNDY: And law enforcement is definitely one of the primary interested parties here, but not the only one. I think they represent many people, and rightly so, those who are the legitimate kind of interests here, but there are other interests.
ROBERT KEPPEL: At the beginning I asked you, you know, where you wanted to start and you didn't know so I told you and then you started --
TED BUNDY: Ahh ha. Ya.
ROBERT KEPPEL: I can just move on to another one.
TED BUNDY: Well, I know. I know what you're
ROBERT KEPPEL: -- for me to do but if that's in your order of things --
TED BUNDY: Well, no, but I -- you know, I -- we got a little bit -- see, I hadn't -- to be honest with you, this morning when I wrote down this itinery -- this outline of mine, I hadn't fully intended to talk any specifics today. I wanted to do is sort of set out some ground rules and get you to understand where I'm coming from and what I'm looking for. Ok? Now, earlier today it was made known to me that -- well, I received some information and it became clear that it would be in my best interest to talk about specifics to show my good faith. And at that time we were talking about Colorado, to begin with. And maybe Utah. To let the authorities in each of those states know that this is not any kind of game, but that we have to have more, and I can't put myself in the corner of going through what I consider to be just the factual high points and we're missing a lot of the stuff inbetween. You know, I make no bones about it. I am looking for an opportunity to tell the story as best I can in the way that makes sense to me and the way it will help not just you or the families, but that's very important, but also to help my own family. You see, I saw the look in my stepson's eyes yesterday -- after he had been told for the first time that -- you see, he's always believed in his heart -- I mean, he's always wan ted to believe that I had never done anything like this. As hard as it may be for you to believe that, there are people who do believe that. And there are people close to me who believe that. And to see the look in his eyes confirmed my worst fears. See, he said, could you -- he was just absolutely astounded. He couldn't understand. He was writing me questions, just furiously writing questions. I could see that he, you know, that he was, you know, how really bewildered he was. And I need to give him a chance to know and others a chance to know what was really going on. What it was really like, from me.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Well, I think that a lot of that going to come out with each stage we go through.
TED BUNDY: Well, this is true.
ROBERT KEPPEL: And if you want to start first with how you wanted to start and go with it, go ahead and do it.
TED BUNDY: Well, what I wanted to do was to
ROBERT KEPPEL: -- get it out of the way, already.
TED BUNDY: What I wanted to show, do with you is something we haven't done before and which -- is talk about something very specific. This is something I've held, God forbid, but I've held for all these many years, fifteen years or so. And I think I -- glad we started with that particular inci-- that individual, victim, case, because it was one of the unidentified ones, more or less, you know, in some -- I think you had your suspicions, obviously, and very strong suspicions, but -- So we start with a case which I think kind of demonstrates or exemplifies what we're trying to do. What kind of information I have. I have more or -- I intend to talk to the Colorado authorities about one of their cases where remains have -- where they've found nothing. Absolutely nothing where they can. And the same with Utah.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Is there any Washington cases that are like that. You mentioned Manson as a possibility, buried.
TED BUNDY: Ya. I think there may be only one though.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Only one that's actually buried?
TED BUNDY: Ya.
ROBERT KEPPEL: You want to talk about that one?
TED BUNDY: No.
ROBERT KEPPEL: You told me before that's your
TED BUNDY: Well, that is. That is -- and that certainly is.
ROBERT KEPPEL: How about the location?
TED BUNDY: Well, all this -- All this must come out and will come out. What I need is a chance to do it.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ahh ha.
UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: (Undistinguishable]
ROBERT KEPPEL: I think the main thing that we need to do is -- we would like him to confirm all of our suspicions about the ones that we know about for sure, and to locate the ones that we don't know about. That's the bottom line.
TED BUNDY: Right. Exactly.
ROBERT KEPPEL: How deeply we get into each of those events -- the chances of finding evidence to confirm any of them is probably slim after 14 years, unless there is something someplace that we don't know about. And those types of activities are things that we need to be able to confirm. To go for.
UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: [undistinguishable)
ROBERT KEPPEL: Well, I'm not going to explain the entire process of criminal investigation to you. He knows what it is. He knows probably better than anybody what it is. But, if we have a particular location and site we can certainly, you know, mount the people to check the site --
TED BUNDY: Sure.
ROBERT KEPPEL: And search for it. We're a hell of a lot better at it today than we were fourteen years ago. That's for sure. And we've got the auspices of the Green River Task Force to search and help search in probably the most professional way possible, and that's about all I can offer. If we know a location where you think we can find something.
TED BUNDY: Ahh ha.
ROBERT KEPPEL: But to my knowledge, you know, Hawkins and Manson were the only two that disappeared that we knew about and possibly associated. We may have had the missing person mistake which is entirely possible, but those are the only two. The reason I asked you if you ever buried anybody -- the chances of finding remains that have been left above ground over a long period of time are slim to none.
TED BUNDY: That's right. That's exactly true.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Fourteen years is --
TED BUNDY: Oh, nothing. Nothing. I mean, I could tell you exactly where some clothing was thrown, but your'e not going to find anything. Not after all that time. Not along I-90 or anywhere else.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Maybe we could find, I don't know where it is, but, you know, the one I was thinking about is the bicycle. We've never found Janice Ott's bicycle.
TED BUNDY: Well, I know, I know what you mean. Ya.
ROBERT KEPPEL: So, if that's some place, we could find that if it isn't at the bottom of Lake Washington.
TED BUNDY: No, no it's not. I don't think so. ' I
ROBERT KEPPEL: But see, those are the types of events we can go through with each case because I'm trying to discover as we go along just how much you really have that we can use.
TED BUNDY: Sure.
ROBERT KEPPEL: And froma factual standpoint. But, you know, the reasons why, to me, the why never caught anybody. So, cops and their mentality think of what, and where and when and who, you know. And so we're kind of stuck with you wanting why and maybe the occasion with William here will help that out a lot more the with me. But, I'm not interested in the why.
TED BUNDY: Well, I'm don't -- I'm not trying to convince you Bob that you should interested in the why if you're not. I think there are a lot of people are. I know I am. And I think a lot of people are interested in why. People constantly come up to me and they said, will ask me, why. I mean, it baffles people. And they're not law enforcement folks. And I don't think you mean that the why never caught anybody because understanding the people you run after -- you're after, is sometimes 90% of finding them. Ok. That's what you're trying to do with the Green River guy. And more power to you, but I think why is important to a certain degree. I'm not saying that's -- we're going to, we're going to make any tremendous breakthroughs here that I'm some kind of different creature, but I think I have ability to articulate what was going on inside mea lot better than a lot of other people in a way that maybe people can understand. But, again, we'll get back to -- it may or may not benefit you to put it together into how this evolved, year by year, to the first incident, to the second, to the third, what happened before, during, after, in my own mind, what was inflamming me, what was inciting me, what was terrifying me. I mean, all those things. This is not by any means an attempt to gain sympathy. It's simply an attempt to understand. And it would help me. It would help most importantly my family. It's not worth it to me, really, to, in the short run reawaken all these bad feelings and all this hurt and all this anger and a fire storm of publicity just to -- which would hurt my family, without any kind of compensating abilty to help them understand. And that's what's - - and that's a major consideration for me. And it's -- I mean, my feeling is is we do it right, I do it right, or I don't do it, really, at all.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ok. How is right for you then? What do you want to do? I mean, we've got forty-minutes --
TED BUNDY: Well, we've got forty-five minutes left. We've got forty- five minutes left. And also, I haven't spoken to Bill at all. I mean, --
ROBERT KEPPEL: Well, Bill's got a time with you tomorrow.
TED BUNDY: Ok. All right. Well, I need the opportunity to go over all the cases with you and with others who have, are experts in the field of serial homicide and to piece it together. To hard data the crime scenes, the psychological stuff, everything. And we can't do that in forty-five minutes and we can't do that in two days. Not -- cause there's more people involved than just you. There's more obviously than you. More states, more jurisdictions. And so, we don't have everybody scheduled right now that we -- to just sort of -- for me to give them a demonstration of good faith. We only have, really have tomorrow and Sunday. Monday is basically just going to be for family. It could be the last day. So,
ROBERT KEPPEL: What do you want to do with the two days that we have here?
TED BUNDY: Well
ROBERT KEPPEL: Cause they're going to be asking the very same questions that I am, the other people corning in -- wanting to know time and events.
TED BUNDY: I know. Sure they are. Well, here's -- let me give you an example.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ok.
TED BUNDY: I won't give you specifics right -- well -- I -- representative of the Attorney General's Office in one of the states got in touch with a friend of mine. And he said, listen, we know that Bundy has a lot of things to talk about that happened in our state. We know we don't have enough time to really get into all that before Tuesday. Give us one thing, one tangible thing and our Attorney General and our Governor will go and do what they can to convince Florida to give us time to do it right, to talk to, to develop this information, to find whatever needs to be found. And they're committed to that. And they're not asking for everything. We just want a demonstration of good faith. One hard thing to go on. And that's basically, that's basically my thinking at this point.
ROBERT KEPPEL: So that state's not Washington. It's Colorado. And you got the hard thing is that you need to locate the bodies.
TED BUNDY: Well, that was, that was the thinking, that was what came off the top there. It's not just Colorado. It's Utah and Idaho and other places.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Well, how do you want to treat the next -- you know, the time here with me now.
TED BUNDY: Well, what are we are we scheduled again? I didn't know we were scheduled again.
ROBERT KEPPEL: We're not. Not scheduled here. I've noticed that there's - - I asked about nighttime visits. I don't know what the policy is here.
UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: [undistinguishable]
TED BUNDY: Ya. They're trying they decided to leave the nights open because -- you know, I'm this is exhausting for me. I mean, I -- not just this, but the whole death watch thing. I mean, there's a lot going -- that's another complicating factor. There's a lot more going on with me than this. This is why death watch complicates out ability to really -- for me to really focus on this. But I'm -- cause I'm thinking about family, thinking about the legal situation. Again, I'm not asking for sympathy. That's just the way it is, Bob.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Well, I understand. I'm just wondering since (end of tape].
ROBERT KEPPEL: Testing. One, two, three, four, five, six.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ok. It's going.
TED BUNDY: What's the Attorney General of Washington willing to do?
ROBERT KEPPEL: Willing to do?
TED BUNDY: Anything? Who is -- who is the Attorney General these days?
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ken Eikenberry.
TED BUNDY: Good old Ken Eikenberry.
ROBERT KEPPEL: He's a Republican.
TED BUNDY: That's right.
ROBERT KEPPEL: You can imagine what he said already.
TED BUNDY: Ya. RK He said we're not going to stop any execution, not for any reason. So, a lot of law enforcement agencies in our state are waiting to hear back from me.
TED BUNDY: Just a second.
GUARD: Ted.
TED BUNDY: Yes.
TED BUNDY: Well, I can
ROBERT KEPPEL: We've been discussing the fact that you've been focusing mainly, at least in your reactions -- I mean, you went thoroughly through one particular case, fairly well --
TED BUNDY: Yup.
ROBERT KEPPEL: And although there's some extra little things that are tough for you to talk about, but the reality is that once we get to talking about another one and another one, you're -- you're thinking more about the Colorado cases and --
TED BUNDY: No, I'm not.
ROBERT KEPPEL: And what's behind that than dealing with me.
TED BUNDY: No, I'm not. I'm telling you -- I'm not, I'm not treating you, wouldn't treat you any differently. And I'm not holding you hostage, Bob.
ROBERT KEPPEL: It sounds like, from what you've explained all through the past couple hours, is that maybe we should start with yourself -- way back when. I mean, whenever you wanted to start off life, and start talking up through it. And getting up to -- maybe we might get to 1974 and '75, but your main interest is in making sure that people and humanity and those who deal with this know about the reasons for this activity and what goes on during the physical things that people can pick up on when, you know, somebody's life's going astray and things. And maybe that's, that's probably the most important thing to society, moreso than the cops.
TED BUNDY: I know.
ROBERT KEPPEL: But, agh, and if that happens to lead up and talk through some of the facts and cases that we go along and the history of that conversation, maybe that's the type of atmosphere that you'd be --
TED BUNDY: That's the kind of atmosphere where I would be able to give it to you, at least in a verbal form like it was. Not the bits and pieces. What we're doing is taking stuff out of context. And I know you have a narrow focuses, you have a narrow focus given your law enforcement perspective. And that's important for what you do. It's important that those questions be answered. But it's important for me that those questions be answered in context, for any number of reasons, but I won't -- but perhaps the most important reason for my own family, so that they understand it. But if they, they're only getting part of the story, they're only getting the worst stuff, you know how, you know what's going to happen if and when all this stuff goes public if all we did was just hit the whos and the whens and the body count. That's -- I mean, it's just going to, it's just going to be a -- it's going to be bad enough as it is. And I -- I don't mind that as long as we have
ROBERT KEPPEL: [undistinguishable] We're only here to represent one factor of the body count or whatever it is. You know, I personally, and police and law enforcement, we have an interest in knowing about the historical background.
TED BUNDY: Right.
ROBERT KEPPEL: And, but, you know, I don't know, you talked probably on the other side of the wall to more cops than I have. My thinking is that the way that confirms things with cops is just to tell the god-darn truth about the facts --
TED BUNDY: That's right.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Get it over with and you know when you got it.
TED BUNDY: That's the way it is.
ROBERT KEPPEL: That's what they understand.
TED BUNDY: I know that.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ya.
TED BUNDY: I know that.
ROBERT KEPPEL: The manner in which these interviews are organized, it's all cop oriented. I mean
TED BUNDY: Well, that's too bad. That's the way --
ROBERT KEPPEL: Somebody else and somebody else and then your time's up. Maybe we didn't re- organize something.
TED BUNDY: Good point.
ROBERT KEPPEL: So we can understand what in the world facts really are.
TED BUNDY: Well, that needs to be done. You -- I think you do see it. Whether you like it or agree with it or not maybe is something else again.
ROBERT KEPPEL: What are you going to tell the guy from Idaho that comes in? He wasn't even aware that there was a murder there.
TED BUNDY: Ya. I don't think -- do we have that set up yet?
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ya.
TED BUNDY: Well
ROBERT KEPPEL: See, when I called him first to tell him to come in, I said, you know this might be a surprise to you, but he wants you down there. The guy from Idaho. TB Ya.
ROBERT KEPPEL: He was totally unaware. You're going to have to tell him. He doesn't know -- have a clue what you're talking about.
TED BUNDY: Ya. All right. We've got twenty minutes. I, we -- I don't feel like we've, we've achieved, we've accomplished something here but I don't feel like we've really joined heads on this thing. I don't know what you want to do. I know you've been on, on this case, so to speak, the Bundy case, for a long time. I know that you must have some deepseated feelings about it. I don't want to make too many assumptions, but here's what it comes down to to me. I want the truth, the truth that's going to be helpful to you, but the broader truth that has a wider application. That's my bottom line. There's just no way it can be done in these circumstances with this amount of time, and that's the way it is. I'm not holding you hostage. If you don't want to do anything with it you're free to walk away. If you can put your heads together with these other law enforcement people and think of any way, I'm not asking for clemency, I'm not asking to get off. I'm not asking for sympathy, but I, I draw the line. We need a period of time, 60, 90 days, a few months, systematically going over with everybody, bottom to top, everything I can think of. Get it all down. You can use it as you see fit. But -- that's how it is. Now, if you can see a way. I know you're limited in what you can do. You've got your job and your political considerations and all that and your boss apparently has taken a position against this, but all I can tell you is when you go out and talk to those other people, you can tell them this. Yes, I'm ony going to give you part of it. I'll give you something substantial right now to show you that my head is in the right place. I will not be in -- put myself in a position of giving it all away and not getting the kind of result that I think is best from my people and I think for society in general. But, let's just stick, I don't want to sound like I'm too altruistic here, that is a consideration, but I am concerned about my own people. Bob, they're going to get me sooner or later. Agh. You don't need to worry about that, but you've been after this for fifteen years. A couple months is not going to make any difference. That's what I have to say.
ROBERT KEPPEL: I think essentially you're right, that as a person, ok?, you know, knowing what I know today, I'd like to keep you alive forever so we could really go over the whole thing together. That's what I'd like to do as a person inside me.
TED BUNDY: Ya.
ROBERT KEPPEL: The reality is that I'm a cop and I have to go back to work and work in an atmosphere of -- I'm a professional. I don't get upset because somebody didn't get the death penalty and should have.
TED BUNDY: Yup.
ROBERT KEPPEL: I just understand and want to learn about the process of investigation. We talked about this before.
TED BUNDY: Sure.
ROBERT KEPPEL: About the processes.
TED BUNDY: Ya.
ROBERT KEPPEL: The fact that you're dead or alive as a professional process makes no difference. If I got hung up on the fact that you were dead or alive, I may as well just go up in the mountains and just kill myself.
TED BUNDY: Ok. Well, I'm not saying necessarily that you are, but, I mean, the most -- you have got some interest in justice I suppose, whatever your definition of that is. All I'm saying is if, that is, there is any worry on anybody's part, whether it's your's or your bosses' or anybody else, I -- what, what -- agh, what I would like to help people understand is, if it's justice, whatever that means, they're after, they can get a lot more justice in a couple months than they can right now. And they can help a lot more people in a couple months than they're going to help right now. And they're not going to be doing a thing for me other than giving mea chance to tell the story. I'm repeating myself but I've, I've -- I've no one but myself to blame about I realize that.
ROBERT KEPPEL: I was about ready to bring that up.
TED BUNDY: And I take full responsibility for it. I've procrastinated, I've waited too long and I don't want to go into long rational or long story about, you know, all the things that put me in a position of waiting this long. Believe me, on many occasions prior to today, prior to early this week, I had seriously asked for people who represent me to take this approach, long before this warrant was signed, and they steadfastly opposed it and all but demanded that we stick with the conventional legal approach. And perhaps last February when I virtually begged them to go this way, we had gone this way, maybe we wouldn't be in the position - - we wouldn't be in the position we are today, I'm pretty sure. Ya. I realize, Bob, we're -- I am, whistling against the wind right now, the politics are pretty heavy duty out there. And folks have made up their minds, the people in power, a lot of them. And I don't know if this is going to work. And if it doesn't it's going to be too bad for -- everybody losses.
ROBERT KEPPEL: You are talking about a system oriented toward the chance to kill Ted Bundy. I mean, that -- what sound politician wouldn't want to fall the ax right now? He doesn't care anything about it. All he's talking about is law and order. Here's this famous murderer that he has a chance to say, "no, we're not going to support." And, but, as a police officer, I have to assume that you're going to die Tuesday.
TED BUNDY: I know.
ROBERT KEPPEL: I got to think about what you can give law enforcement between now and Tuesday.
TED BUNDY: Ahh ha.
ROBERT KEPPEL: And if it's pieces, it's pieces. -- or nothing. I don't know which. But, I can't -- I'm not going to give you any advise. I'm sure not going to tell everybody you're a liar, that's for sure. And if they ask me I'm just going to tell them the truth that you did tell me some things and that I thought you were cooperating. Time is a problem.
TED BUNDY: I know.
ROBERT KEPPEL: And, there probably -- there's no way I can leave here today and gather up these people and come up with some plan of action about the interview with Ted Bundy. All I could ever expect when I heard I had 2 1/2 hours, you know, 15 years out of 2 1/2 hours is nothing.
TED BUNDY: Sure.
ROBERT KEPPEL: So, one of the things that I wanted to do is at least find out the scope and you've helped me with that a little bit. I would like to know about the other three that we're talking about because I really don't have any clue. TB Let me ask you this, again. I know the position you're in. But law enforcement in the past has been somewhat -- they've not been shy. I remember years ago about holding conferences and getting together and swapping ideas and what is Ted Bundy really like and drawing diagrams on the wall and coming - out with statements to the press about what they think Bundy's about. You know, law enforcement has an interest here. Society has an interest, families have an interest, etc. Is -- are the politics such that it's just not possible for you and others in a similar position to sit down this weekend, somehow, sit down this weekend together with a cross-section of interested parties, try to get everybody in the same room. You know how this stuff goes. It's a tower of babble right now. Everybody talking it over, over through the news media and over the telephone. Nobody even getting together to find out well, what do we really stand to gain, what do we lose. I mean, what's going on here. And see if a consensus of some kind can be hammered out without anybody having to stand out there alone, without Bob Keppel risking the rath of his boss or anybody else. or, everybody standing together and saying, you know, we're not for Ted Bundy. The son-of-a-bitch, you know, or whatever, but we are for finding out and we think it's not unreasonable that this will come to pass because we have received so -- some strong indications that he's -- has opened up in a way he never has before. Do you hear what I'm saying?
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ahhh ha.
TED BUNDY: There's going to be a lot of police, whether I call them in here or not, most of them would be here, don't you think? A lot of them would be here -- waiting in the wings. I know they have before. If we can get, or if you can get somebody, if somebody can get everybody in a room and you say this is what I know, I mean, I'm not Ted Bundy's advocate, I'm an advocate of Washington State's interest. I'm an advocate of Colorado's interest. I'm an advocate of the Attorney General of Florida's interest. And this is what we think. What's at stake? What are we looking at? Is he trying to bullshit us? Is he, you know, trying to manipulate us? or is he serious? Will he give us what we want? And can we justify this politically by saying we're getting this and we're still going to be able to execute him anyway. And coming up, again, with the kind of consensus that the public respects and the politicians respect. Because you say, well, what do politicians have to gain. I mean, in this law and order atmosphere. Well, part of the -- one of the, the calling card of today's politicians, today's compassionate politicians is their deep respect for families. Ok. I'm, I'm would sound hypocritical if I were to say anything about the families of these individuals, even all the years I haven't said anything. But the fact of the matter is they still do count. They're still out there. They still deserve to find their people. They can find their people. I can tell them how to find their people and it's up to the politicians to give mea chance. And that's the bottom line. And if they don't give me the chance, which I will take advantage of if I am given it, have the chance, I am given the chance they will get -- they will be able to help those families they so righteously talk about all the time. And still get me. Well, it sounds to me like, you know, they have everything to gain and nothing to lose. Think about the predictament. Again, I know that I'll -- I know that it's going to occur to you and I know the accusation's been made that I'm manipulating families but the reality is they're out there. They're there. If we didn't talk about them they'd still be there. There are a handful, several dozen probably, mothers and -- you know, you've seen it firsthand and I'm sure you probably don't like me talking about it, but I'm going to talk about it. I will tell you and your fellow law enforcement officers everything I can to locate the remains of a number of people in your state and elsewhere. And I can do that. And these are -- this can be done. There are some of these people don't even know that I'm involved. That is, these family members. I'm killed, they're doubly deprived. They don't even get the sense of satisfaction they killed, they executed the guy who did it to their child.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ahh ha.
TED BUNDY: This way they get both the knowledge, the remains of their loved ones and that satisfaction of some justice being done. Without it -- that's what it comes down to, really. I didn't, you know, I put myself in this position. Agh, but that's where we're at. That's one of the places we're at. We're also at a juncture where you as a law enforcement officer want a lot of -- you want something. You want facts, which you're entitled to, which you need, and I recognize that. But there's more involved in that and you know that too. And while I don't expect you to be a spokesman for me or for social science, let's get down to some, the practicalities of what can be done. I know that you as a law enforcement person, as a human being, are interested in families. You're interested in solving crimes, you're interested in preventing future crimes, and what I have to say goes to a lot of that. And I don't think I need to tell you that, but can, can't we get people in the same room and talk about the stuff. Rationally, instead of taking rhetorical stands in a news media. They're going to be here. Think about it.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Well, I know where one stands. I don't know when the other guys are coming in again. My problem is they want their time.
TED BUNDY: Sure.
ROBERT KEPPEL: And, you know, froma practical standpoint, if, this Colorado Attorney General or Governor, whoever it is, consider, then, you know, cops, the, three or four or five that are here, or somebody, there's not much it effects. But that person, in the discovery of that body, and the impact of that, if it's really credible, will have more to say by the fact that we don't know all of the state of Washington. Utah doesn't know all. Idaho doesn't know all. In the short term, between now and Tuesday, then, I know for a fact, and I'm not going to bullshit you, that there is no way in the state of Washington that my boss will interfere with Tuesday's proceeding in anything. All I am, hopefully all I'd be here at the time, was the facilitator of information that either verified or refuted what you wanted to say about cases that maybe you couldn't remember or couldn't talk about it. And that's it. I don't have any authority to -- I can certainly go out to the rest of the detectives that are here and express your wishes. In fact, I can play the tape for them. But, I think, I don't know if you want me to do that.
UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: Bob [undistinguishable]
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ya. You can call at 3:00 in the morning while I was asleep. I told you that I had a boss to consider.
UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: I did not ask you that [undistinguishable]
ROBERT KEPPEL: You didn't?
UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: No.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Well, in any event, I myself am committed and I am willing to say the law enforcement officers, whoever else, as far as I'm concerned today, these people are sincere that there's not enough time.
TED BUNDY: That's good enough. You know, if you
ROBERT KEPPEL: It's my understanding that, that I have to prove all of my public releases through my boss. I'm living with that. So, when I get information, IH ave to go back to them and ask them, here's the way it's stated, which they want to couch the information that's released. Not only that, but I have the obligation to contact the jurisdictions involved because I represent each one of them. And believe me, not each of those have the same opinion as the Attorney General. Now, Thurston County people have a different idea about the Manson case than say, the King County Police. Ok?
TED BUNDY: Ya.
ROBERT KEPPEL: King county Police, you know, the switch can go man. There are other agencies that feel the same way and some that don't. So, I have to go back, and I'm dealing with multi- agency problem here. Who's going to say what to do and when. Now, the big one is not my Attorney General. The big one is the Governor. And whatever those people want to do is up to them. If they want to influence the Governor all I can say to each of them is I have pieces and I have some, I don't have all, and there's certainly not enough time. I can't go out and risk my employment by telling Governor Martinez he's full of shit.
TED BUNDY: No.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ok? I can't do anything like that. I don't think you asked me to do that.
TED BUNDY: No. No, think about what we've done here today. And what's left to do. We're out of time. I need, I want a couple minutes with Bill before you go. Diane will be in touch with you and we'll try to see what, if anything, can be put together that's something you, your comfortable with.
ROBERT KEPPEL: You can shut that off now.
TED BUNDY: That initial understanding about confidentiality, for the time being, you know, for the next few days anyway.
GUARD: Mike and they are out there. I'm obligated to give them about another 25 minutes now because I didn't give them in here til 11:30.
TED BUNDY: We just have a few more minutes and we'll be done.
GUARD: Ok. Just let me know.
GUARD: Did I understand him to say that you were coming tomorrow, Sir?
TED BUNDY: No, that's Mr. Hagmire.
GUARD: Oh, ok.
TED BUNDY: I just would ask you to hold off on any specifics about, I mean, not play the tapes for anybody and you -- and to ask you, however, to feel free venture your concl usions and opinions about the meeting to other law enforcement officers if you feel that's warranted or appropriate. And then, you know, ultimately you'll use this information as best you can, limited though it is.
ROBERT KEPPEL: If I can get ahold of Salt Lake and hunt up Fisher, but from my understanding there's somebody in addition to Fisher, right?
TED BUNDY: There's some other people coming with him. I think somebody from Vail, Colorado.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ok. Right. That's the one that can probably help you.
TED BUNDY: Nobody, I don't think, is from Grand Junction, but I'm not sure.
ROBERT KEPPEL: I don't think there is -- There seems to me there's somebody from like state's Attorney Office plus Fisher.
TED BUNDY: Ya.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Well, how do you feel about nightime visits?
TED BUNDY: Well.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Then we have the possibility of tonight or tomorrow night after the other police are done. And you probably wouldn't have [undistinguishable].
TED BUNDY: Ahh ha. Some of this I can, I think that that could be, some of that could be worked out. The prison authorities have intentionally scheduled only for daytime because, again, because the activity during the day plus all the, you know, the stresses and limitations of death watch. You know, by the time 7, 8 o'clock rolls around, I've about had it. You know, I'm just really not functioning to well. So, and as a last resort that could be worked on, except, of course, Monday night, that's out of the question.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ya. I was just either thinking of either, either tonight or tomorrow night or the next night.
TED BUNDY: Sunday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday night. Well, you're -- Dianna knows where you're staying.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ahh ha. I'm not staying anywhere right now but she will shortly.
TED BUNDY: Right. Ok. Well, you'll find -- she'll find out. So, I'll be in touch with you through her.
ROBERT KEPPEL: I can call the assistant warden and offer the night time stuff.
TED BUNDY: Who?
ROBERT KEPPEL: The assistant warden.
TED BUNDY: Decker? Decker or Turner. Those are the two.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ya. Decker.
TED BUNDY: Ok. Ya. Turner, you'll find out, he's the one that called. He's the assistant superintendent for operations. He is the man. He calls all the shots. Oh, that's right, Decker has taken his place. That's right. You're right. Ok. [end of tape] ' I JANUARY 22, 1989
ROBERT KEPPEL: Testing, one, two, three.
TED BUNDY: The Seattle papers are talking about, saying all sorts of outrageous things that I've been telling you.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Really?
TED BUNDY: Ya.
ROBERT KEPPEL: What's that?
TED BUNDY: What does that mean? Things like I -- we went over eight, nine cases and -- I don't know. You didn't -- I guess I should ask you flat out -- You didn't mention specific cases to anybody in the media, did you?
ROBERT KEPPEL: Specific ones? No. No. Cause there's no --
TED BUNDY: I think they're guessing.
ROBERT KEPPEL: They have, I told them that you confirmed what our suspicions are, and from all I can estimate that was what Diane wanted me to do too.
TED BUNDY: Ya. Well, I hear you. I was just curious. I just, you know, I was -- wasn't accusing you. RK And then I told them also that there was one we talked in detail about, but I didn't say anything about the details. And then I contacted each of the victims relatives and talked to them and I told them how sincere you were and how open you were about talking to me about it and that it was a difficult process to go through. And, you know, they wished me luck and --
TED BUNDY: How about the one in particular, the Georgann Hawkins?
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ahh ha.
TED BUNDY: Were there any -- you know, is there going to be any attempt to go over that are a again?
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ok. Georgann Hawkins are a is pretty much so thoroughly searched. I mean, that was the first one and it was -- we went for miles all over on hands and knees. We found a lot of bones, but, you know, by the time we got -- the only thing we have of her, or had of her, for the medical examiner lost bones--
TED BUNDY: They lost the --
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ya. Were two, was one femur bone. We ended up with five femur bones. That's all we had. The only thing that we could possibly cover that may add to some of the answers is a location of Donna Manson, because she's the one that's missing. And we never found any, anything we think that is her at all. And we've never found the rest of Taylor Mountain either. I mean, we've found just skulls. And we never found the remainder of the bodies. We never found Janice ott's bicycle. We never did -- we actually found -- all we found of Janice Ott was her lower jaw bone. We didn't find her skull. We found Naslund's skull. We found Ott's, what we think was Ott's, backbone. You know, those animals they just walk around out there and do their thing.
TED BUNDY: They sure do. Ya.
ROBERT KEPPEL: One, you know, I'd like to know where the Taylor Mountain bodies were placed too, because I'm sure if the bodies were there someplace we would have found at least one other bone -- out there. We went practically everywhere we could. This is the Taylor Mountain bone find. There's a power line road that comes in from Highway 18 and basically -- this is Highway 18 out here. There's a quarter sectional marker right here. This is a 1000 feet into this point from where the power line road meets Highway 18. Ok? Most of what we found was right in here. And all we found, as you can see, hair, skull, skull, jawbone, jawbone and a jawbone over here. This -- and some hair in this are a. We never found any bones. Now are those bodies buried out there someplace? Or are they someplace else where no one's ever found them, any bones? The yellow cross-hatching is hands and knees shoulder to shoulder searches by 14, 15 year old kids. They did one hell of a job. That all are a was nothing but overgrown vine maples and real heavy terraine getting in there.
TED BUNDY: What's the blue, a - creek or something?
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ya. There's a creek there.
TED BUNDY: I mean, ya, I mean, it's just -- it could have been something else.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ya.
TED BUNDY: The man comes prepared. Not like our friend from Salt Lake City. How? What road? What map? What freeway? Bless his heart though. I mean, I think he's a nice guy. I'm serious. He just wasn't prepared.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ok. We want -- You going to give mea hint where the rest of those bodies are?
TED BUNDY: I don't know. To be honest with you, I honestly can't tell you.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Were they dumped there?
TED BUNDY: Well -- See -- the disadvantage here -- well, you're not at a disadvantage, but I'm sure you, you consulted -- but I doubt there's any textbooks in the are a of animal deprivation, as such. But I'm sure that somebody's written an article in some forensic journal. In any event there's very, very poor little creatures out there and they just take them.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Right.
TED BUNDY: And why they leave the skulls the way they do -- maybe it's just because they're so hard to break up.
ROBERT KEPPEL: That's true.
TED BUNDY: If the bodies aren't there it's because, I think, it's because the animals took everything. And where they took them God only knows. They must have just chewed them up.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ya. That's what I thought. Because I thought if in fact they were severed or hacksawed, what would have happened was that the -- we would have found some vertebre, that, the little piece that fits right in the skull holding the skull together, but they don't -- I found everyone of those on all the other cases, except these. And on the Green River cases we find all those. So we know that the animals don't chew those all the way up. All right?
TED BUNDY: Ya.
ROBERT KEPPEL: And with 37 skeletons in Green River we know a lot about animal behavior, right?
TED BUNDY: Oh, sure you do. Ya. I forgot all about that.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Looking back now to '74 here
TED BUNDY: Ya, well, you can get a
ROBERT KEPPEL: You got a lot more -- at the time -- we're looking at about a year's decomposition on some of these, that the animals had that much time to take them away. But, in the Green River cases some of them are five years, two years, three years. Right?
TED BUNDY: Interesting, interesting I've got to say.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Are you -- were these heads severed, like Georgann Hawkins?
TED BUNDY: Ya.
ROBERT KEPPEL: They were?
TED BUNDY: Ahh ha. (long silence)
ROBERT KEPPEL: They weren't severed? Are you saying that because we don't have any evidence of severing and you don't want to say it, or are you telling me that's fact?
TED BUNDY: I wasn't going to answer you when you asked. I just did that very well with the Salt Lake City guy.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Oh, did you?
TED BUNDY: Well, no, I just ran out of steam. I just ran out of steam. And I don't have much left. So --
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ok. How about, how about the Janice ott's bicycle?
TED BUNDY: Ok. Do you have any maps of Seattle?
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ahhh ha.
TED BUNDY: Show me the Arboretum.
ROBERT KEPPEL: The Arboretum. Ok. Let's see here. The Arboretum. Right -- it would be -- Place you know well. Here's the University. Here's the Arboretum.
TED BUNDY: This is going to take some doing here.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Lake Washington Boulevard coming down there is the main road through.
TED BUNDY: Ya, that's right. No, that's not it. I think -- a little orientation problem. Shouldn't take me more than a couple days to figure it out. No, let's see. This is kind of mind boggling. I used to know that place like the back of my hand, but I -- I'm having a lot of trouble, I mean, genuine trouble -- figuring stuff out. Something is not right on this map, I swear.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Well, this is probably more recent than -- but the city of Seattle hasn't changed that much. There's no new roads there. Those have all ready been -- you know, the city of Seattle is all established. There's nothing new in there. It's very much like it was when you were there.
TED BUNDY: Ahh ha. It's not Washington Boulevard.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Well, you've got -- this is the main road that goes down. All the way down Capitol Hill. 24th goes to 23rd. Is the bike something that somebody would have found, out in the open?
TED BUNDY: Oh, well. I mean, some little black kid's riding it around.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Sure. Sure.
TED BUNDY: Probably ridden the wheels off it. But, it's a black are a, well, mixed. Used to be. Border line of the Central Area. Let me see the -- let's see -- maybe a bigger perspective would help. No, just a minute.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Bigger? You want it bigger?
TED BUNDY: A little bit bigger.
ROBERT KEPPEL: I think that the biggest perspective is right here. And --
TED BUNDY: How about the segment just below this one?
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ok. Map 20. Starting up here, comes down. Here's 23rd. Here's Madison. 23rd and Madison, a famous part of town.
TED BUNDY: That is 23rd Place. I know that - -
ROBERT KEPPEL: Well, if you left
TED BUNDY: It's not 24th.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ok.
TED BUNDY: It's below 24th. And what it used to be, there was a main drag that came out, out of the Central Area. I used to drive a lot, in the old days before the freeway was all fixed up. And I was going South to Tacoma. And I used to come in on that and I remember there was a --
ROBERT KEPPEL: This is the street here. That's all the way in from the Central Area. It goes all the way. All the way from I-90.
TED BUNDY: I know it does. But that's not the one. But don't ask me why.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ahh ha.
TED BUNDY: There's this -- let's go back to map number 8. Cause I'm trying to find, you know, the part of the Arboretum that this little roadway, back roadway, sort of snakes around. I mean, snakes around. But -- see, I thought, started to think it was this one. But it deadends there. That's not right.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ahh ha. Is the -- you didn't conceal the bicycle in any way?
TED BUNDY: No. No.
ROBERT KEPPEL: So there's no use even pointing out where it is because we can never find it.
TED BUNDY: Well, it was concealed, but leaves and branches
ROBERT KEPPEL: How about her backpack? And other clothes. Where were they?
TED BUNDY: I don't even remember.
ROBERT KEPPEL: You don't even remember.
TED BUNDY: Oh, wait a minute. I mean, I'm not remembering too good today. I mean, I just, my mind is really -- I mean, I still can't even find a roadway that I must have traveled a thousand times from here. But I'm not remembering clearly, things. I mean, I mean, the backpack. The backpack. Backpack. Ok. It's somewhere that that road -- you know where the Tea -- there's a Japanese Tea Garden --
ROBERT KEPPEL: Yes.
TED BUNDY: In the Arboretum.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ahh ha.
TED BUNDY: That's the reference point. Because it's below -- it's above that. But this little road, this used to just snake right
ROBERT KEPPEL: Above it?
TED BUNDY: And I swear it must be --
ROBERT KEPPEL: Well, this doesn't look like it snakes very much, but it really does. This one. It really is snakey.
TED BUNDY: Washington?
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ya. Lake Washington Boulevard. That's the road. That thing. These little curves here, they really curve.
TED BUNDY: Oh, I know, but that's noti t because that goes right through the Arboretum. This is on the edge of the Arboretum. The road I'm talking about, winds, goes right around the outside edge, right here at the southwest corner of the Arboretum. It comes in like this. It looks something like this. Maybe. But it's somewhere above, or used to be, somewhere above.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Well, you could get right where you're talking about by just going over here like this. Across and back up again.
TED BUNDY: It could be it. I mean, that's
ROBERT KEPPEL: You're looking at corning like this, along this road.
TED BUNDY: It just seemed more -- I think the map shows it disjointed while it really is more a less a continuous thing.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ok.
TED BUNDY: Why, it's just one of those routes you get used to. So it's somewhere below that road but above that Tea Garden, whatever it is.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ok. How about Donna Manson? Gal from Thruston County. Olympia. Where's she?
TED BUNDY: Where is she? She should be
ROBERT KEPPEL: She dumped out along the power line too or a different road?
TED BUNDY: That was different. That was different.
ROBERT KEPPEL: What was different about it?
TED BUNDY: Well, where she was, relative to the power line road.
ROBERT KEPPEL: You told me before that she might be buried.
TED BUNDY: Ya. You have pictures here?
ROBERT KEPPEL: You don't remember Rocket Research's explosion plant up there, or Rocket Plant, explosives plant?
TED BUNDY: Ya. I should.
ROBERT KEPPEL: You should. You could have blown yourself up. If you'd have gone up a little bit further, you know, all these live, dud rockets laying around in the woods.
TED BUNDY: That all you have?
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ahh ha. For that time, ya. Is she further up the power line road?
TED BUNDY: Ya. I -- that was a
ROBERT KEPPEL: Which side?
TED BUNDY: Agh, left.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Left side?
TED BUNDY: Ya.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Left side and buried. That's not very far -- how far up? If you never made it to Rocket Research or to the gate up there -
TED BUNDY: Ya. It's hard -- I mean, even though -- I mean, I know what you're -- I mean, I think I know what you mean. But,
ROBERT KEPPEL: Did you go by the gate?
TED BUNDY: Doesn't this go on over I mean, this road, doesn't it go on past that place?
ROBERT KEPPEL: No. It starts up and goes to the left into the mountain side. Into the hills. And about another, oh, quarter mile is the Rocket Research are a in there. But, there's a gate there.
TED BUNDY: Ok. Well, I think that -- she was just further up the road.
ROBERT KEPPEL: She's further up the road and she's buried. How far off the road do you think she's buried?
TED BUNDY: Ya, well, inside, inside the tree cover.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Inside the tree cover. Ok.
TED BUNDY: These are contemporary. I mean, these are
ROBERT KEPPEL: Those are right when we found it. Ok? That's March of '75. Not March of '74 when she's missing.
TED BUNDY: But, listen.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ahh ha. We can probably find her if she's still there. In fact, I've dang well half the world that can go search for me, and they'll do it.
TED BUNDY: I won't beat around the bush with you any more because I'm just tired and I just want to get back and go to sleep.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ok.
TED BUNDY: So let me just tell you I'm, I know that, that part of her is buried up in there, but nothing identifiable, probably just literally bones. The head, however, the skull, wouldn't be there.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Where is it?
TED BUNDY: It's no where.
ROBERT KEPPEL: It's no where?
TED BUNDY: Well, I don't -- I'm not trying to be flipant. It's just, it's just no where. It's in a category by itself in that it was -- now I'd just as soon this is something that you just kept, I don't -- I can see the headlines now. But --
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ted, there's not going to be any details. What you told me about Georgann Hawkins isn't going to be known. And I got parents out there that don't even want to know the details.
TED BUNDY: Oh, I know. And I --
ROBERT KEPPEL: He wants to know and I want to know for my own good.
TED BUNDY: Well, it was incinerated and it was just an exception. A strange exception, but it was incinerated.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Where did you incinerate it?
TED BUNDY: Ahh (slight laugh).
ROBERT KEPPEL: Come on partner. These are things I don't know about you.
TED BUNDY: Ya. This is, this is probably the disposal method of preference among those who get away with it.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ya.
TED BUNDY: But because of being -- agh, it's most bizzare, bizzare nature I've ever -- ever been associated with and I've been associated with some bizzare shit.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Right. It's incinerated. Now,
TED BUNDY: It's incinerated.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Tell me about it. What the hell happened?
TED BUNDY: Well, it -- don't know the address of the place. I never wanted to tell this -- I promised myself I'd never tell this because it would -- I thought, of all the things I did to this woman, this is probably the one she was least likely to forgive me for. Poor Liz.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ahh ha.
TED BUNDY: In her fireplace. That's not really not that humorous, but, I mean, the fireplace at that house.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Burn it all up?
TED BUNDY: Down to the last ash, and in a fit of, you know, paranoia and cleanliness, what have you, just vaccumed down all the ashes.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ahh ha.
TED BUNDY: That's the twist.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ya, that's a slight twist. Ya.
TED BUNDY: It's a twist. And it's a lot of work and certainly very risky, under the circumstances. I mean, the kids come home from school and there's a roaring fire in the fireplace and it's warm outside.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Did you ever keep anything in your refrigerator?
TED BUNDY: No.
ROBERT KEPPEL: No body parts in the refrigerator?
TED BUNDY: No, that was not -- that was not something that I ever found any kind of body part things. Something that --
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ok, before you mentioned you gave up the eight before and you gave me three more. And I don't know what three you're talking about. Can you help mea little bit with those?
TED BUNDY: I think --
ROBERT KEPPEL: Which three are you making reference to?
TED BUNDY: Which three. I was trying to figure that out myself.
ROBERT KEPPEL: And what did you come up with?
TED BUNDY: Well, I -- this is what I came up with. It was an earlier one.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ok.
TED BUNDY: To begin with. An earlier one.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ok.
TED BUNDY: '73.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ok.
TED BUNDY: '73. The -- well, it was earlier than anything.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ok.
TED BUNDY: Time confuses me. Time of year. It's -- May. I'm not sure.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ok. Where was she missing from?
TED BUNDY: No. Tumwater are a.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Tumwater are a. That's where she was missing from?
TED BUNDY: Well, no, not the are a, I mean, Tumwater/Olympia. I'm always bad about the -- where one starts and the other stops.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ok. And where did she end up?
TED BUNDY: That whole are a has always disoriented me. That's the problem. There's a maze. I call it a maze of backroads. It's not a maze, I guess, but it's something about the are a that I have a hard time keeping track of the backroad system there.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Is it a found body? Do you know that?
TED BUNDY: No.
ROBERT KEPPEL: It's not found.
TED BUNDY: No.
ROBERT KEPPEL: It's a missing girl from the Tumwater are a.
TED BUNDY: Well, I don't know if she was from there.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Or that's where you picked her up.
TED BUNDY: She was hitchhiking.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Hitchhiking.
TED BUNDY: Ya, I never heard anything more about her.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ok.
TED BUNDY: But that's, that's -- there's an are a -- You know, I don't know, it's hard to explain, Bob. You get into a - - I get in -- well, I, not you, where I would get -- the person I used to be would get into a fit of - - and just drive. And people have trouble relating to that. You sort of lose orientation. You sort of lose track of where you've been. You just get lost. It can be in broad daylight and so panicky, so disoriented. Anyway -- I mean, I believe this is where you're going - - I can't even remember the road system anymore. The highway goes off and you get to the bottom of the Capitol Hill - -
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ahh ha.
TED BUNDY: The highway goes off - - one freeway goes off to the left and the other goes off to the right.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ok.
TED BUNDY: Used to know what that was. It goes to the ocean. And there's a whole bunch --
ROBERT KEPPEL: Aberdeen Freeway.
TED BUNDY: Ya. Well, back in there -- I say back in there -- You go down that road and if you would have, wait -- let's see, turn to the right and then just meander, cause these back roads,
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ahh ha.
TED BUNDY: Without really, not paying as much attention to where you're going as just looking for some place.
ROBERT KEPPEL: ahh ha.
TED BUNDY: I was half way familiar with those kinds of roads because I was, one of my hobbies -- before I started doing this was I liked places, to go places where people dumped stuff. Literally dumped stuff.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Right.
TED BUNDY: I just -- anyway, it was one of these areas where -- by some -- the infamous power lines where a lot of these things would -- people would -- you know, one of these dump areas where they just littered piles of --
ROBERT KEPPEL: Right.
TED BUNDY: Clothing, paper, board, boxes, couches, things.
ROBERT KEPPEL: That's where, she's off of one of those roads someplace.
TED BUNDY: Ya. Now I, you know, there's an image in my mind of the place, of this road that cuts through the torn up old stumps.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ok.
TED BUNDY: And the power lines and the curving road. But where is it?
ROBERT KEPPEL: You don't know.
TED BUNDY: I mean, if I were to drive back and forth through there -- it's back up on, in the power line road, under the tree cover, off to the side of the road.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ahh ha. Ok. Is there one of these three that's a little bit more clear than that one?
TED BUNDY: Ok. The other two I don't know, Bob. My thinking, I was thinking about it. You know, I think that's as much -- You know, you threw out a number and I, I, sometimes I think what happened is a number lodged in my head and you said eight. I thought 11.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ahh ha.
TED BUNDY: You know, we didn't sit down and say, ok, one is -- two is - - three is -- four is.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ya.
TED BUNDY: For some reason I'd been thinking -- I hadn't really stopped myself and for some reason I was thinking the number in Washington was 11. I don't know how many individuals.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Can I ask you some individual questions?
TED BUNDY: I don't know. How individual? What do you mean?
ROBERT KEPPEL: We found something at the Lake Sammamish site, pornographic book.
TED BUNDY: Ya.
ROBERT KEPPEL: And it's a pocket book. You know, typical sex novel only it's just got stories in it.
TED BUNDY: Interesting.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ahh ha. Remember something like that?
TED BUNDY: Well, I remember -- ya. There, no. Area -- I can't imagine that I would do such a thing. I mean, I've done some strange things, but -- and some casual -- and --
ROBERT KEPPEL: Probably about 200 yards east of where you pointed out Georgann Hawkins and Ott and Naslund's remains were found, along that road that goes back. Along the highway is where we found a little paperback book.
TED BUNDY: You find lots of strange things up that pass.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ahh. Ya.
TED BUNDY: And that's, you know, being something of a vicarious sort, I used to be up, I used to go up there just to entertain myself when, you know, I read in the paper that somebody was off missing. I ran up there and just cruise around and sit down and search the side roads. It's amazing the things you find up there. But it wasn't mine. But there is lots of -- there's lots of stuff up there. As you know, I go -- every now and then when your Green River victim turns up, used to turn up, and other parts too, it's a very convenient dumping are a. Used to be. Probably still is. You know, I've got to get back and get to sleep, man.
ROBERT KEPPEL: I'd like to ask one last question.
TED BUNDY: Oh, boy.
ROBERT KEPPEL: One last one. simple one.
TED BUNDY: Ya.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Is that you? It's Lake Sammamish State Park, 1974. The tree, cops roll in to take care of the --
TED BUNDY: Law breakers.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ya.
TED BUNDY: Well, I mean, we're in the ballpark.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Well, that is the very tree that, I believe, Janice Graham, one of our -- the first gal that you approached at Lake Sammamish State Park. She walked all the way to the car with you and then decided not to go. She's the only one that ever saw the Volkswagon.
TED BUNDY: Well, I is it? You say there's a person in there. I mean, it appears to be this other person in there, right?
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ya.
TED BUNDY: I'm not trying to bait the question.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Right. Right.
TED BUNDY: Agh.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Do you remember getting caught in there by the cops?
TED BUNDY: No. No. I think this is -- as you doubt discovered, there are a lot of light colored Volkswagons.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Oh, I know. Ya.
TED BUNDY: And I don't mean to burst your bubble. That is an interesting coincidence. But, God, I was -- you would have never seen me in Lake Sammamish State Park again with all that heat. [laugh] That's a lot of heat there.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ahh ha.
TED BUNDY: That would have been fairly memorable. No, that, I'm most certain that that couldn't be me. And besides, at that time I am, I think, you notice on the back of the car was a missing --
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ahh ha. Right. Right.
TED BUNDY: Of the ski rack.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ski rack?
TED BUNDY: Ski rack. Ya.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Now, thousand people have asked me to ask you this.
TED BUNDY: Oh god, asprin, right? Go ahead.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ya, right.
TED BUNDY: No.
ROBERT KEPPEL: About
TED BUNDY: Ok. Well,. right. That's one that's easy. No. Absolutely not.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Definitely not.
TED BUNDY: No, I -- That's one of the few I wish that people would believe. They believe everything else except my answer which is no.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Really.
TED BUNDY: On that one. You know, and that's very sad. But it's also so ludicrous because, I mean, I don't know if you ever looked at it in the course of your studies.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ahh ha.
TED BUNDY: It's all the way across town, really from where I -- as a kid, hung out and had my paper route. The inference was, for instance, my paper route that came close to or included the Burr home. Well, my understanding is it's, you know, for a kid, where the Burr's lived, as it relates to where I lived, it was in a different part of the world. You're -- that was a pretty long ways away. Different schools, different high schools. Never went to that are a. Never had any occasion to go there. It was just, just another part of the forest. And -- agh, I was only like thirteen, fourteen years old, or less.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Agh ha.
TED BUNDY: No. Absolutely not. And I wish there was some way that -- I wrote to Mrs.'s psychiatrist one time who asked me this.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Conte.
TED BUNDY: Conte.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ahh ha.
TED BUNDY: Ya. Anyway. And then he in turn wrote hera letter, has written her several letters because, you know, it's my home town, first of all. Not that it should make any difference, but, I mean, there's some allegations that even I feel the need to answer, felt the need to answer back then. And I was as emphatic as I could be that I didn't know anything about that.
ROBERT KEPPEL: When and where was your first murder?
TED BUNDY: One more question, right?
ROBERT KEPPEL: Oh, I'm sorry.
TED BUNDY: Ok.
ROBERT KEPPEL: I was just curious.
TED BUNDY: We'll have to bring that up, do that some other time. You know, if there is another time.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ok. Fisher probably would like to talk to you just for a second.
TED BUNDY: All I've got.
ROBERT KEPPEL: Ok.