CRIMINAL INVESTIGATION DIVISION
ASP-3-A
DATE: January 10, 1984
DICTATED BY: Sgt. Jerry Reinold
DATE TYPED: January 10, 1984
COPIES TO:
INTERVIEW OF SUSPECT
On January 5, 1984 a taped interview was conducted at the Williamson County Jail in Georgetown, Texas beginning at 9:08 a.m. through 10:00 a.m. and again from 1:00 p.m. until 6:00 p.m. Present at the interview were Sergeant Jerry Reinold and Lieutenant Doug Stephens, both with the Arkansas State Police, Lieutenant Fred Hensley and Sergeant Bob Thomas, both the Little Rock Police Department, and HENRY LUCAS. This live interview is as follows:
REINOLD: I know it was in ’81. When in ’81? Was that in the spring, fall, summer, if you can recall back about when that was in 81?
LUCAS: I would say late spring, I believe.
REINOLD: O’kay
HENSLEY: I’m sorry HENRY, time of the year, you’re saying late spring?
LUCAS: I believe it was the late spring I was in there.
REINOLD: If we showed you a Little Rock map there could you, would that help you anymore at all, I mean…
LUCAS: It might, my eyesight ain’t that good.
REINOLD: O’kay
STEPHENS: Did you ever spend much time around in downtown Little Rock, HENRY?
LUCAS: Well I’ve drove through around down in there quite a bit in Little Rock, that’s them, all them oneway streets down there.
FILE NUMBER: T-41 CRIME: ARMED ROBBERY/HOMICIDE
ASP-3
PAGE NO. 2
STEPHENS: On this mini-mart that you’re talking about, tell as best that you can remember about what happened, how it went down.
LUCAS: Ah, well we come off on a service road there in Little Rock and followed the service road on down through ah, for quite a ways down through there. There was a school, a school in that area, there’s ah, let me see, there’s I think a small shopping center in that area, shit I don’t know, some housing projects back out in there.
REINOLD: Where was this school in relationship?
LUCAS: Let me see, I believe there’s some apartment houses on down from there, the store. This place I’m thinking about, the mini market thing, it’s not too far from the corner, there’s a stop sign not too far from where you come out of the drive way in it.
HENSLET: Can you remember any traffic, any red lights, green lights, traffic signals, Henry?
LUCAS: Well they got them but they’re on, let’s see, what were they on, seemed they were on the side of the road.
STEPHENS: Alright, go ahead, as you remember how things went down. You got to the point where you come down the service road and pass the school, go ahead…
LUCAS: Went on down there and pulled in this place for gas as we ah, we stopped out at the gas pumped and filled up full of gas and we drove, pulled on around this away and stopped and I got, and me and OTTIS got out and went on into the, I believe it was a gulf station, went into a gulf station there, and after we got inside, why, we went over and told her how much we got and rung it up on the cash register, I’m pretty sure she rung it up, and when they opened the cash register well we told em we wanted what money she had, and that’s when she started sticking something down underneath the counter, or she went down after something, I don’t know which, but she got shot just a little after that.
STEPHENS: O’kay, then what happened?
LUCAS: Well after that, we went back out the door. There was somebody on the telephone, was over at the telephone just after we come out and he hadn’t come inside or anything and ah, we started on to the car and some nigger come up through there and OTTIS took, got his money and ah, went from there on back to the car and left. We went on out of town that time.
FILE NUMBER: CRIME:
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PAGE NO. 3
STEPHENS: Alright, I want to back up with you now, when you first pulled into the station there…
LUCAS: Yeah
STEPHENS: You got gas, you got any idea how much gas you got, you just full it up or get a dollar amount or what?
LUCAS: No, we got about ah, let’s see, finish topping it off, it’s about five ($5.00) or six ($6.00) it took to fill it up and we didn’t want to run out.
STEPHENS: What were you driving then?
LUCAS: An Oldsmobile Vista Cruiser.
HENSLEY: What color?
LUCAS: It was white with a blue top on it. It was cut down, well if you looked at it from a distance, it looked like a truck the way it was cut down.
STEPHENS: Was there anybody else travelling with you and OTTIS during this time?
LUCAS: Yeah, there was two (2) other people but I don’t recall who they were.
STEPHENS: O’kay, alright, did you spend any time, you’d said earlier that you’d came into Little Rock that day out of Tennessee…
LUCAS: Yeah
STEPHENS: You’d worked at the Salvation Army that day, is that right?
LUCAS: No, not the Salvation Army, we didn’t work there that time.
STEPHENS: Oh, okay…
LUCAS: This was in ’82 that we worked at the Salvation Army.
STEPHENS: Oh, okay. You didn’t work there any that day.
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PAGE NO. 4
LUCAS: No, we just drove around through town, ah, well it was the business route but it don’t show it in here, comes down and goes through town, we were on that. Goes down, let’s see what is it, well it goes down by ya’lls building down there, ah, police building.
REINOLD: You talking about the Sheriff’s Office, State Police building or…
LUCAS: It’d be tall building, greyish like building down there.
REINOLD: O’kay
LUCAS: It’s, ah, it’s either four lane or six lane, I don’t know which it was now. I remember seeing the divider in the middle of the road. We drive all down through that area and on down into, when you get back in this area there’s a lot of one way streets back in here, you get on one and you have to go a long ways for you can get onto another one. And you go back down through the, let’s see, there’s another another police station way down in here, a court house down in here. This sort of goes around in a circle, a circle area in there and you get back on ah, I guess you call it the east part of Little Rock.
REINOLD: I got a map here of the city that brings out the routes a little bit better than that one, if you can just, maybe you can see the roads a little bit better there and kind of show Lieutenant HENSLEY where you’re talking about that you went out there, of course, there’s the river as you can see, it…
LUCAS: Yeah
REINOLD: And that’s North Little Rock up there and then Little Rock’s down where you’re hand, in that area, if you can just kind of go back over that same route that you just described to us.
LUCAS: Here and here and here and on down through here and we took, ah, I guess it’s I-30.
REINOLD: This is I-30 running right, all the way around this way here.
LUCAS: Yeah, it on I-30 coming down through ah,
REINOLD: If you’d been down town, this is really the downtown part of Little Rock right in here, okay? This is the major, inside the city part. Okay, now this is all going south, I-30, you’re coming south.
LUCAS: I’ve been on this one, University.
FILE NUMBER: T-41 CRIME:
ASP-3
PAGE NO. 5
REINOLD: You’ve been on University before?
LUCAS: Yeah
REINOLD: On that same day that we’re talking about?
LUCAS: Yeah, ah, same day that that happened….
REINOLD: O’kay
LUCAS: We’s on University and we went all back down in here and like I say it’s a big circle comes around…
REINOLD: That was…
LUCAS: That road bears off to the right and other one goes on around to the left.
REINOLD: You talking about coming off University, one goes to the right and one goes to the left you say?
LUCAS: Yeah
REINOLD: Which way did you go, did you go right or did you go left?
LUCAS: Well we went way back out in here, there was a lot of shopping malls and stuff out in this area, back out in here.
REINOLD: About where you best guess that this mini-mart would be, what area by looking at that map, do you have any idea, just by your estimation there?
LUCAS: Let’s see…
REINOLD: I know that map’s not really that well.
LUCAS: Well we were past the airport.
REINOLD: You did go past the airport? Is that coming in before you did the job or is that going out after you did the job?
LUCAS: Seems like that was before we done the job.
REINOLD: O’kay.
REINOLD: What do you think, FRED, we just, you want to try the video?
FILE NUMBER: CRIME:
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PAGE NO. 6
STEPHENS: I want to talk to him a little bit more here.
HENSLEY: Yeah
“ : HENRY, what did, after you did, after ya’ll did this job, as I understood it, you say you had someone else with you besides you and OTTIS but you’d rather not…
LUCAS: Yeah
HENSLEY: go into right now, but you did have two (2) other people with you?
LUCAS: Yeah
HENSLEY: O’kay, and you were in a Vista Cruiser?
LUCAS: Yeah, we’s in a Vista Cruiser.
HENSLEY: Describe that to me, would you?
LUCAS: Well, it’s a station wagon, it was cut down into a pick-up, ah, it was cut off at the, even with the back of the front seat. There’s a glass bubble on top of it, it was cut off right a the back of that glass bubble, made into a camper type, ah, the back of it. We had our bed and everything in the back.
STEPHENS: Did you have a camper on the back of it?
LUCAS: No we didn’t have any camper on the back, we just had…
HENSLEY: It was open?
LUCAS: Yeah, it was open.
HENSLEY: What did you do when it rained and like that?
LUCAS: We had a canvas that went over the top of it.
HENSLEY: O’h
HENSLEY: What did you do after, after you got finished at the store?
LUCAS: After we went back, back on and hit I-40.
HENSLEY: You hit Interstate 40?
LUCAS: Yeah
FILE NUMBER: CRIME:
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PAGE NO. 7
STEPHENS: And where did you go after you hit I-40, where were you headed?
LUCAS: California, we went all the way into, ah, Las Angeles, ah, down in toward San Diego, back up I-5 from San Diego into Oregon and Washington, all the way across Oregon into, after we come out of Washington we come back through the east part of Oregon and come back down through Nevada, come back across Nevada into Colorado, from Colorado back into Mexico, Mexico back into Texas, back into Florida.
REINOLD: Did you do any other jobs, HENRY, you know, shortly after this one? When was the next one that you can recall, when one the next one that you did after this?
LUCAS: Seems like the apartment was the next job that I done after that.
HENSLEY: In the Little Rock area?
LUCAS: Yeah
REINOLD: Well, I guess what I, maybe I didn’t get it straight, you did the service station, mini-mart job and then you left going to California. Did you do any jobs in route to California? Not just necessarily in Arkansas, just anywhere else.
LUCAS: Next…we did some in Oklahoma around that time, did some in Colorado at that time and we got some in California at that time.
HENSLEY: O’kay, let me take you back specifically HENRY, you believe it to be a gulf station?
LUCAS: Yeah, I believe it was a gulf station.
HENSLEY: O’kay, what part did you say, you referred to as a nigger come out or a nigger came up or something?
LUCAS: A nigger come up, started up to the door when we come out.
HENSLEY: When ya’ll were coming, you HENRY, you and OTTIS both were inside at this point in time?
LUCAS: Yeah, we were inside and we started out the door. I got out past, well almost out to the car, OTTIS he come out the door and remember OTTIS stopping the guy going into the store and OTTIS told me he got five dollars ($5.00), whether he did, I don’t know that.
HENSLEY: O’kay, you were already out?
FILE NUMBER: CRIME:
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PAGE NO.8
LUCAS: Yeah, I was already…
HENSLEY: You’d already exited?...
LUCAS: out the door
HENSLEY: the mini-mart?
LUCAS: Uhhuh
STEPHENS: How did OTTIS stop the guy?
LUCAS: Ah, with a gun I guess, he had the gun in his hand.
STEPHENS: You say, you think, you’re the one that shot the lady there in the store.
LUCAS: We both shot but I don’t know whether I’m the one that hit her or whether OTTIS hit her.
STEPHENS: O’kay
LUCAS: I couldn’t tell you that.
STEPHENS: And what gun did you have?
LUCAS: I had a .22, it was .22 Rugger and OTTIS, he had a .38 Smith & Wesson.
STEPHENS: You had the .22 Rugger, was it the revolver?
LUCAS: Yeah it’s a revolver, no the one I had wasn’t a revolver.
STEPHENS: Was it a semi-automatic?
LUCAS: Yeah, it’s a semi.
STEPHENS: And that’s the one you said you think OTTIS sold here in Texas to somebody?
LUCAS: Yeah, I’m pretty sure he said he sold it because he’s the last one that had it as far as the .22…
STEPHENS: Do you know….
LUCAS: The same .22 killed the two (2) people down here in Austin outside Austin there.
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PAGE NO. 9
REINOLD: Which two?
LUCAS: The two in the liquor store.
REINOLD: O’h, o’kay…
HENSLEY: O’kay, I’d like to…
REINOLD: Go ahead.
HENSLEY: The woman, where was she shot, on what part of the body?
LUCAS: Ah, I think once in the head, I believe, and once might have hit her in the chest, I’m not sure, I think it was twice she was hit.
STEPHENS: And this same gun you used down here in Austin?...
LUCAS: Yeah
STEPHENS: In a liquor store?
LUCAS: Yeah, I used that one back in ’79 down here in Austin. I shot two (2) people down here with it.
STEPHENS: What ah, the two people you shot down in Austin, what ah, were they men or women, or….
LUCAS: Men and women
STEPHENS: A man and a woman. Where did you get that gun?
LUCAS: I bought it from, well I bought it off the street really back in Florida.
REINOLD: Do you remember who it was you bought it from?
LUCAS: Ah, no I don’t.
REINOLD: O’kay
LUCAS: All I can tell you, he was a colored guy, that’s all I can tell you.
REINOLD: O’kay
HENSLEY: During the incident, the mini-mart in Little Rock HENRY, I want to go back to that just for a minute, ah, describe, can you describe the black man that came up?
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PAGE NO. 10
LUCAS: Ah, let’s see, he was tall, approximately, dark complected, and sort of, what I call, ah, gray type clothes on the best I can remember. He was about, ah, ruffly guessing 40, in his late 40’s, in his late 40’s I believe.
HENSLEY: Did he have glasses? Did he have glasses, or do you recall a full beard, do you recall that? facial features, can you give me that?
LUCAS: I don’t remember him having glasses on, ah, but I think he did have a mustache, don’t remember any beard.
HENSLEY: O’kay, did he, do you think that OTTIS took his money at gun point or how did he, how do figure that that happened? Were you standing there watching or had you gone…
LUCAS: I’d went on to the car.
HENSLEY: Went on to the car.
LUCAS: Cause I knew when OTTIS came out of the store he had the gun in his hand and when he got to the car he had it in his hand so ah, undoubtedly he took it at gun point, of course.
HENSLEY: Did you actually see him?
LUCAS: No, I didn’t actually see him.
HENSLEY: How did you, did he tell you later that he did it?
LUCAS: He said later he did, he said he took, I think he said five dollars ($5.00) from the guy, but I ain’t positive of that, could have been more, I don’t know.
HENSLEY: O’kay, was there anything, ah, was there anything else at that particular scene there when ya’ll came out that you recall as far as people being present, ah…
LUCAS: Well there was another guy, like I say, over toward the telephone.
HENSLEY: O’kay, where was the telephone in regard to the…
LUCAS: That would have been to my right coming out, out of the door, over to my right.
HENSLEY: Over to your right?
LUCAS: Yeah
FILE NUMBER: CRIME:
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PAGE NO. 11
HENSLEY: O’kay and can you describe the person on the telephone?
LUCAS: Well all I could see was his back. He looked like a younger guy but I couldn’t swear to it, I never seen his face. He had sort of sports clothes on and I can remember another black car setting over there back off in front of where I was parked at.
HENSLEY: O’kay, can you describe that HENRY? You mean black?
LUCAS: Just a sports car is all I can tell you.
HENSLEY: It was a sports car?
LUCAS: It was a sports car but I can’t tell you what kind. I just remember seeing it setting over there as I go into the car.
HENSLEY: Was there anything that stood out about this vehicle, did it have ah…
LUCAS: Well it was nice and shiny is about the only thing that I could tell you.
HENSLEY: It was solid black you think, or…
LUCAS: Yeah, it looked solid black from where I was sitting. It looked like it was solid black. It had, ah, let’s see what was it, seemed like it had sports wheels on it.
HENSLEY: Uhhuh
LUCAS: Don’t think it had the regular wheels, I think they were sports wheels on it.
HENSLEY: O’kay, I’m taking you back, ah, from, in other words from, you know, from the time you came out, I’m taking you back in now, back in the store, o’kay, can you describe the victim to us?
LUCAS: Yeah, she’s sort of black headed, let’s see, dark headed, I guess it’s black, she’s probably ruffly guessing 27 to 30 years old, medium build, about 135 maybe, I’d say approximately 5’, ah, probably 5’6”, I’d imagine, somewhere around that area.
REINOLD: She wear glasses, HENRY, you remember?
LUCAS: I remember some glasses, I don’t remember whether she had them on or not.
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PAGE NO. 12
STEPHENS: Why don’t we stop here right now, shut em off.
REINOLD: We’re going to end the tape at this time for a break.
REINOLD: This is January 5, 1984 and the time is 1:33 p.m., we had a break and the interview with HENRY LUCAS, due to the lunch, and we’re going to continue that at this time.
HENSLEY: O’kay, you get lunch and get squared away, HENRY?
LUCAS: O’h yeah, I’m good, all my made, I got my mouth full of that stuff.
REINOLD: O’h me
HENSLEY: You’re not in any pain are you
LUCAS:
HENSLEY: I think when we stopped, you were, you were at the mini-mart as you refer to it…
LUCAS: I call em…
HENSLEY: Convenience store…
LUCAS: Mini-mart
HENSLEY: And I’s putting you back inside and you said that you said that the, you and him was inside, I believe, o’kay, now just tell me again, start from the time you decided to leave that store.
LUCAS: Ah, well when we left, I walked on out the door, ah, come out the door this away and turned and walked on back over toward the car.
HENSLEY: O’kay
LUCAS: As I come out the door here I walked back over here to my car.
HENSLEY: O’kay
LUCAS: And I was approximately right here when the colored man come up this away and OTTIS, he had just come out the door.
HENSLEY: Uh huh
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PAGE NO. 13
LUCAS: And when, ah, he was stopped there and was talking to him, I went around and got in the car, and ah, he came on over from there and the colored man went back that way. I don’t whether he went back to get in the car or what. He went back off that way and I went on over there, I pulled up this away and back around and come on out the drive this away.
HENSLEY: Umhuh
LUCAS: I had to stop there for a stop sign. I’m pretty sure it was a stop sign here.
HENSLEY: O’kay, now then, HENRY if you would, if you know and if you can, give me your idea of north here on this opposed to south. What do you think would be north?
LUCAS: I think north is this away.
HENSLEY: Back this away?
LUCAS: I believe it would.
HENSLEY: O’kay, so what I’m gonna do here is, we’ve already, I’m just gonna make a small one of these jobs like that and put north, you agree that north is back this…
LUCAS: Yeah
HENSLEY: O’kay, how’s that?
LUCAS: That’s alright
HENSLEY: O’kay, then just go ahead, HENRY now and tell me what transpired from there on.
LUCAS: Well from here I had to stop and cross an intersection here, seems like there was another service station here on this corner back over here so I went on through here and went on up through, ah from there, ah, I drove a long ways before I got back on I-40.
HENSLEY: O’kay, did you hit, do you know which, when you say you drove a long way, do you think that you were going toward Little Rock or away from Little Rock when you were headed back toward I-40?
LUCAS: I thought I was going away from Little Rock, ah, but I ended up way back out seems like from Little Rock.
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PAGE NO. 14
HENSLEY: But you were, you were trying to get back in I-40.
LUCAS: Yeah west, to California I think.
HENSLEY: O’kay
LUCAS: After I got back on I-40, I drove all that day, the rest of that day and the rest of that night and the rest of the next day, ah, and the next day I was in California. It took me three (3) days to drive across from there to California.
HENSLEY: O’kay, did you do, you probably did most of the driving then didn’t you HENRY?
LUCAS: I did all the driving.
HENSLEY: Just about all of it? O’kay, let me ask you this, when you came out here was this, was a man, was this man on the telephone that you referred to…
LUCAS:
HENSLEY: O’kay.
LUCAS:
HENSLEY: Alright, did you, did you see him well enough to recognize him being white or black the man on the phone.
LUCAS: He was a white man.
HENSLEY: He was a white man?
LUCAS: He wasn’t no, he wasn’t no…
HENSLEY: O’kay, what I’m gonna go here is show you a photograph, well I’ll show you more later but right now, here’s a line up photograph here of six (6) men. Does any of those look familiar like they might have been on that telephone? Just sometimes, you know, when you look at a photographs, something will come back to you. Do any of those men there, we’ll start from left to right, let this guy be #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, any of those people look like they might, you know, do anything for you as far as being on that telephone possibly.
LUCAS: If he was turning around, it would look like this one
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PAGE NO. 15
HENSLEY: O’kay, this, I realize is probably difficult for you to make an identification or anything but if, this is the only one that does anything for you, you’re saying the guy in the picture with the white shoes on.
LUCAS: If he was turning around it would look like the back, the hair length, looks like him, that the only thing I could tell you.
HENSLEY: He’s…
LUCAS: He’s about the same build.
HENSLEY: Same:
LUCAS: Same build.
HENSLEY: O’kay, alright, ah, did anybody, do you think anybody noticed your Vista Cruiser setting there or being, it would be an unusual appearing vehicle, would it not?
LUCAS: Somebody should have noticed it setting there, it being cut down and everything
HENSLEY: Ah, was there anybody parked, or do you recall anybody walking by or looking at your vehicle being parked close by so that they would remember an unusual Vista Cruiser with the front end cut off made into the pick-up truck?
LUCAS: No, I couldn’t, couldn’t say I seen anybody.
HENSLEY: O’kay
LUCAS: The only one I probably would have seen was that colored man walking up there, he probably would have seen it.
HENSLEY: O’kay
LUCAS: The only one I probably would have seen was that colored man walking up there, he probably would have seen it.
HENSLEY: Did he, did he have to walk pretty close to it HENRY?
LUCAS: Well, he was over at the gas pumps setting just over from the gas pumps.
HENSLEY: O’kay, now where is the, is the sports car that you referred to earlier?
LUCAS: It was setting back over in here.
HENSLEY: O’kay, this being the sports car.
LUCAS: Yeah
HENSLEY: O’kay, and that was your car. Alright
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PAGE NO. 16
LUCAS: I remember another car setting here but I don’t remember what it was.
HENSLEY: O’kay, we’ll just put a question mark here because we’re not sure what it was. O’kay, ah, BOBBY you have anything?
THOMAS: No
HENSLEY: Do you, do you believe if I were to show you a photograph of the woman in the store or I want to show you some photographs, and ah, if anything jumps out at you or anything comes back to you, would you indicate so to me, to all of us?
LUCAS: O’h yeah, if I can remember right, I can identify.
HENSLEY: I’m not sure of any photographs right now, ah, o’kay, I’m gonna show you an 8x10 color shot of another convenience store, you know, and I’d like for you to tell me if it does anything at all for you HENRY, as far as, you know, ever being there, ever bearing in mind, this is just a long shot, I’ve got interior shot I want to show you, there’s two or three shots.
LUCAS: I’ve been around of lot of em like that one.
HENSLEY: I didn’t, I didn’t hear you.
LUCAS: I’ve been around a lot of them like that.
HENSLEY: O’kay, but nothing else really does anything for you then?
LUCAS: No
LUCAS:
the way mine was cut down, it looked like that car right there. It would like that’s a, that’s an El Camino but it would look something similar to that.
HENSLEY: The way you cut it from behind the front seat back?
“ O’kay, this woman here, does that do anything for you as far as ever having seen her, know her or know anything about her or anything of that nature.
LUCAS: Yeah, but I can’t say at a convenience store.
HENSLEY: O’kay, can’t put her in a convenience store…
LUCAS: No
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PAGE NO. 17
HENSLEY: Anywhere? She looks familiar but don’t recall? I’m not putting words in your mouth…
LUCAS: No, she just don’t look like, she don’t look like the one that was in the convenience store.
HENSLEY: O’kay
LUCAS: Seems like the one that was in the convenience store had darker hair and a more fuller face.
HENSLEY: O’kay
REINOLD: Does that look like about the age?
LUCAS: Yeah, the age is about right, but not the face.
HENSLEY: O’kay, thank you HENRY. Just take a quick look at this and just stack them right over here, and I’m gonna give them to you as you stack em here and we’ll go through here and see if we can determine anything from looking at that, some more photographs.
LUCAS: Well I can tell by the telephones, they’re about right, the door is in about the right position.
HENSLEY: O’kay
LUCAS: That’s about all I can tell you.
HENSLEY: O’kay, thank you HENRY.
REINOLD: How about the gas pumps. Were they pretty close?
HENSLEY: Here’s a better shot.
REINOLD: O’h, o’kay.
HENSLEY: The pumps being out here HENRY sort of anti-godlin (slang) toward the front of the building.
LUCAS: The only thing that has me puzzled is them buildings over there, I can’t remember them buildings being there.
HENSLEY: O’kay, inside shots
REINOLD: O’kay that’s what’s gonna be……
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PAGE NO. 18
HENSLEY: This is just some inside shots looks like any convenience store, not gonna be worth a whole lot of good I don’t think. O’kay, how about this one, does this do anything for you HENRY?
LUCAS: Yeah, now that’s the color, that’s the color of the building.
HENSLEY: BOB would you make some notes here on these, and I’ll maybe we can both do it.
LUCAS: I would say this one is.
HENSLEY: O’kay, when you get through with that HENRY, there’s another one at a little bit different angle, maybe you could show me something about it.
THOMAS: This is it.
REINOLD: Let me see if that is it, HENRY.
LUCAS: This is the one that I robbed, 7-11, it’s a boy was right there on the phone.
HENSLEY: Umhuh
LUCAS: Colored guy was right in here. My car was setting right in here. There was another car setting along in here.
HENSLEY: O’kay
LUCAS: And I came out, backed out this away, back out this away down to this stop sign. His car was setting along in here.
HENSLEY: You mean the sporty like car that we were talking about?
LUCAS: Yeah
HENSLEY: O’kay, alright, now then, show me where, where you parked again.
LUCAS: Right in where this arrow is here.
HENSLEY: O’kay, do you remember any part of this?
LUCAS: ?
HENSLEY: Umhuh
LUCAS: I remember the building but I don’t remember if there was a restaurant or not.
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HENSLEY: O’kay, what about…
LUCAS: No I never did go on this side, I can’t tell you about this side.
HENSLEY: O’kay when you had your car parked about right in…
LUCAS: ?
HENSLEY: O’kay, were you headed this direction or…
LUCAS: No, I was headed back out.
HENSLEY: Back out and you headed back out before you stopped?
LUCAS: Yeah, and pulled over here and I got gas and all of us got out and went in and I pulled off the gravel and went around here and stopped and then I got out and went in.
REINOLD: O’kay
LUCAS: When I first went in there now there wasn’t nobody on this phone. He wasn’t there until we came back out of the building.
REINOLD: Umhuh
“ Where did you say you had your car parked at HENRY?
LUCAS: Back over in this direction.
REINOLD: O’kay
LUCAS: It would have been, let’s see, right over in here.
REINOLD: This where you had your car?
LUCAS: These here were just right behind the car, almost behind the car.
REINOLD: And then how did you go out?
LUCAS: Right back out of here and out this way.
REINOLD: O’kay
HENSLEY: I got this one here I believe is the only one that you haven’t seen.
LUCAS: I came out over here, yeah, I come in over here….
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REINOLD: Where were, which side over here now HENRY, would you have pumped gas at?
LUCAS: I got in right here at this front pump, we just pulled in there and stopped.
THOMAS: O’kay, now where was your car setting?
LUCAS: Back side of the station wagon…………….gas
REINOLD: And you got gas there and what did you do with your car?
LUCAS: Pulled it on here, over this way, back this way.
HENSLEY: Let me do this HENRY, got gas, are you sure about this pump, bearing in mind that this is back here, is the restaurant.
LUCAS: It was back over here, this pump.
HENSLEY: O’kay
LUCAS: As I come, come in the drive-way this way and I pulled over this away.
REINOLD: Where would the freeway be in relation to that picture.
LUCAS: Down here, here.
REINOLD: As far as.
HENSLEY: This was taken…
REINOLD: O’kay, I see, go ahead HENRY.
HENSLEY: Go ahead HENRY.
REINOLD: Where would you think right now the freeway would be?
LUCAS: Well it it’d been me, I’d say it was back this away.
REINOLD: O’kay
HENSLEY: O’kay
REINOLD: That’s what I’s, that’s what I’s wondering.
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HENSLEY: Let me make a notation in here HENRY, if you don’t have anything to write on. O’kay, let’s see, put your finger down again and show me where your car would be, approximately, just approximation.
LUCAS: Let’s see, it’s over, turn around, turn the picture around.
HENSLEY: How about…
LUCAS: This one I can show you.
HENSLEY: O’kay
LUCAS: Right here
REINOLD: And you would have gotten your gas over here?
LUCAS: No, I got it in front of the building.
REINOLD: You got gas pumps over here and you got gas pumps over here and I’s just wondering which side…
LUCAS: One side I never side.
REINOLD: O’kay
LUCAS: The back side, what I call the back side of the building, I never did see it.
THOMAS: O’kay, you’ve got, there’s pumps on both sides and they’re almost identical in appearance, let’s ah…
LUCAS: I come by this building here…
HENSLEY: What building are you talking about HENRY?
LUCAS: I guess it could be a restaurant, it’s a waffle house, it’s written down there.
HENSLEY: Yeah
LUCAS: The road goes this away.
HENSLEY: Yeah
LUCAS: I turned off the road and come in this away and come in on this side.
HENSLEY: O’kay
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REINOLD: You got your gas and from there….
LUCAS: Gas and moved on over here.
REINOLD: you moved your car to where?
REINOLD: O’kay
LUCAS: And I stopped it right about there.
REINOLD: Pretty close to this or closer to the building?
LUCAS: Back end was sorta closer to this here…
REINOLD: O’kay
LUCAS: Cause I just swung out there and stopped.
REINOLD: Where would the boy’s car be?
LUCAS: It’s back over here, this away cause I remember it setting there when I, probably when, it might have been in that car thing there but I don’t remember seeing it setting there. He was here on the phone with his back to me and ah, I came out the door, he was on the phone.
REINOLD: Where was the black man’s car again, HENRY?
LUCAS: Well I had seen the car setting right here, whether that was his car, I don’t know that.
REINOLD: Do you recall…
HENSLEY: I’m gonna put just a vehicle here and not gonna put anybody in it.
I’m not very good at vehicles, I don’t even know what direction is was headed.
LUCAS: It was headed this direction.
HENSLEY: I got it right then didn’t I? Did he have his, whoever had this car pulled in?
LUCAS: Yeah, he was facing that direction.
REINOLD: Do you remember, when you said this car, this car here, color or kind,
LUCAS: A brownish looking car setting here. My other driving was better
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LUCAS: than the one I drove this time.
REINOLD: You’re doing good HENRY.
HENSLEY: Heah, it’s not easy to go back, I know how that goes, someone ask me…..
…………
REINOLD: Had y’all, by the way, had ya’ll been doing dope that day, been drinking?
LUCAS: We’s on dope, well we’s on acid and beer both and sniffing angel dust.
HENSLEY: Good Lord
REINOLD: You was doing it that day?
LUCAS: Yeah
REINOLD: Pretty stout
LUCAS: It was up there, I’ll tell you.
HENSLEY: O’kay HENRY, here’s some photographs here that, they’re smaller but even clearer probably, ah, now’s here, does this do anything for you at all? These were taken nearer to the time of the incident than those other ones were.
LUCAS: O’kay, yeah they’re, I can remember seeing that place.
HENSLEY: O’kay, now which place were you speaking of?
LUCAS: The Waffle House
HENSLEY: Alright, was there anything else? Any other structures close by the Waffle House that stands out that you can recall in any way?
LUCAS: Seems like on down the road from there, there’s a school.
HENSLEY: A school?
LUCAS: A school, seems like it was back down the road from that Waffle House, I don’t remember exactly how far but I remember it was back down the road from there.
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HENSLEY: O’kay……..
This anything like the vehicle that you described out there when you described the sporty vehicle?
LUCAS: Well the shape, the shape is the same.
HENSLEY: O’kay, how about, anything else?
LUCAS: Well the wheels, they look the same.
HENSLEY: The fancy magg wheels they call em.
LUCAS: I thought it was a darker color.
HENSLEY: O’kay, thanks HENRY. One more, one or two more here and we’ll have this part of it over with. How about this, does this do anything for you at all here? Here’s another close up.
LUCAS: Yeah, that’s, that’s the exact same building. If it’s not, it’s twin to it.
HENSLEY: O’kay, does this female here mean anything to you?
LUCAS: Her in the face, it looks like the same one. I’m not positive about it.
HENSLEY: O’kay, if you’ll notice here in this photograph HENRY, she’s got glasses, apparently, you know, some people will stick them up in their hair and wear ‘em, same photograph, just a different angle it just didn’t pick up the glasses. I think that might bring something back.
LUCAS: That’s the one.
HENSLEY: That’s the one you say?
LUCAS: …
HENSLEY: O’kay, are you telling me that’s the one that what HENRY?
LUCAS: That’s the one that was in the service station.
HENSLEY: O’kay, that’s the one that either your or OTTIS robbed or both of you?
LUCAS: Yeah, we both robbed her, as far as robbery.
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REINOLD: HENRY, I’m not trying to put words in your mouth, but what, when you said that’s the one, what was it that made it tick?
LUCAS: That stool.
REINOLD: What?
LUCAS: The stool setting back in the corner, she was sitting on that stool when we went in there.
HENSLEY: It’s quite important HENRY that you be positive on this and ah, not that I wouldn’t want to, I’m not accusing you, or guessing or anything but I’m just saying that you, I can’t stress enough the importance of you being sure.
LUCAS: Yeah, I know it.
HENSLEY: The reason I say this HENRY, is because a minute ago you said, it looks like her but I’m not sure and then when you became sure.
LUCAS: I could…
HENSLEY: The same woman you’re describing.
LUCAS: I’m just trying to think of how OTTIS went around her. He walked around something to go in there. Around behind the counter.
HENSLEY: You say OTTIS walked around something?
LUCAS: Yeah, if I ain’t mistaken the cash register is setting right up here, well it’d be above her up here.
REINOLD: Can you describe to us, HENRY, ah, maybe if you could just stand up and show us how she was when she was shot. Can you give us any kind of an indication of how she was? Did she have her back to you, I mean like let’s say I’m on the stool O’kay,…
LUCAS: She was facing OTTIS.
REINOLD: O’kay
LUCAS: She had, she would have been turned about like this to me.
REINOLD: O’kay, I’m OTTIS, o’kay, just say I’m OTTIS, o’kay?
LUCAS: O’kay
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REINOLD: Just say I’m OTTIS.
LUCAS: O’kay
REINOLD: Alright, just kind like this with you and I?
LUCAS: Yeah, I was standing over here.
REINOLD: Back over to her left then?
LUCAS: Yeah
REINOLD: O’kay, this is, right here, what’s this in front of us?
LUCAS: This was an open space in front of her then in front of me there was sort of a counter like.
REINOLD: You mean this is just, just like an opening?
LUCAS: Yeah
REINOLD: O’kay
LUCAS: When I shot, ah,…
REINOLD: Now you said when you shot, where did you shoot?
LUCAS: I shot from over here.
REINOLD: You know where you would have hit her?
LUCAS: Seems like it was the back of the head, around the back of the head.
REINOLD: O’kay
LUCAS: If I remember right.
REINOLD: And then…
LUCAS: I remember she staggered and fell and then when she fell, I shot again, ah, seemed like either I shot, I fired or OTTIS fired again, I don’t know which one, one of us fired again after that.
REINOLD: Can I…
HENSLEY: You mean after she fell HENRY?
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LUCAS: Yeah, after she fell.
HENSLEY: O’kay, go ahead.
REINOLD: Let me back up just a little now, we’ll say, I walk in, I’m OTTIS and we’re saying you’re over here?
LUCAS: Yeah
REINOLD: And you’re, I walk in and was there any conversation, did you say anything, did OTTIS say anything or did….
LUCAS: Yeah, I told the woman I wanted what money she had in the cash register.
REINOLD: So she would have tuned…
LUCAS: She turned…
REINOLD: Like toward the register or…
LUCAS: Well she was sitting facing the register when I went in.
REINOLD: O’kay
LUCAS: And then when I told her that I wanted what money she had, ah, OTTIS went around the, around something, I don’t know what he went around but he went around something he went to where she was at.
REINOLD: O’kay
LUCAS: And when he got in there she turned toward and when she turned toward him she reached down underneath the counter.
REINOLD: She still standing up and reached down with her hand or how was she, how did you say she reached down under? How tall is the counter?
LUCAS: It’s, ah, about this high…
REINOLD: O’kay
LUCAS: When I stood up it was about 4, about 4’ high.
REINOLD: O’kay, we’re saying the counter is about 4’ high and she just reached down with her hand?
LUCAS: She reached, she reached down underneath like this, she reached down underneath, OTTIS told her to get up, and ah, she
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LUCAS: was standing up when I fired.
REINOLD: O'kay
HENSLEY: O'kay, did you, ah, HENRY, when you fired, you didn't give any warning then, you just, she stood up...
LUCAS: No, I just fired.
HENSLEY: You fired. Alright, the first time you fired, do you have any recollection as to where it might have struck her. I would like, if you can HENRY, to show me here on this chart, this is a female figure, show me approximately where you might have struck her, you know, I assume that she is facing you or whatever the case was.
LUCAS: Ah, she was, she had more of her back to me.
HENSLEY: O'kay, go ahead from there.
LUCAS: Seems like it was about right in here, ah, somewhere along in this area.
HENSLEY: O‘kay, and you were firing what type of weapon?
LUCAS: .22
HENSLEY: O'kay
LUCAS: I‘m pretty sure I had a .22.
HENSLEY: O'kay, and then what after you fired that first... just continue on...
REINOLD: what happened to her then did she go down then or was she still standing or...
LUCAS: No, she went down she fell when I shot her.
REINOLD: Did she fall on her side or stomach or back or?...
LUCAS: She fell on her stomach face down. She was rolled over. She rolled over after that.
REINOLD: O'kay, this is, she's down now, when did OTTIS start shooting?
LUCAS: That was when she first fell, ah. he fired or I fired one, I don't remember which one it was but I know there was two (2) shots fired.
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REINOLD: Where was the second shot?
LUCAS: It would have probably hit her, let me think, she’d been face down so the second shot would have hit her probably about the center waist or somewhere in this area.
REINOLD: O’kay.
HENSLEY: Make a pretty good size X here for me HENRY on that top and that second one too.
REINOLD: Put a number one (#1) there too...
HENSLEY: Yeah
REINOLD: and a number two (#2).
HENSLEY: There you go.
REINOLD: There you go.
HENSLEY: Number two (#2) down too, there you go. O'kay, are you, ah, are you sure, HENRY, that you and OTTIS fired while you were in that service station or store whatever you want to call it?
LUCAS: I‘m positive I did, I'm not positive about OTTIS'S.
HENSLEY: Not sure whether he ever fired or not?
LUCAS: No.
HENSLEY: How do you feel? Do you think he did?
LUCASS: I thought he had fired. I‘ve mentioned it to him since them and he remembers it all. Remembered about the place but he didn't remember what all went on down there cause he's so drugged up.
REINOLD: Did you, I may be wrong, HENRY, but I think, the other people that talked to you, did you tell them that ya'll fired five (5) times?
LUCAS: No, I don't think I did.
REINOLD: I mean, I don't, I don't remember I just got that information somewhere, I just wondering...
LUCAS: No, I don’t think there’s five (5) shots fired.
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REINOLD: O'kay
HENSLEY: O'kay
REINOLD: With the best of your recollection...
LUCAS: There was only two (2) shots...
REINOLD: you fired
LUCAS: I'm pretty sure there was two (2) shots fired.
REINOLD: O'kay
HENSLEY: Just two (2)
LUCAS: Yeah
HENSLEY: You didn't hear anymore and this is as close a figure as you can come with.
LUCAS: Yeah, that's as close as I can come.
HENSLEY: O'kay
REINOLD: Were you wearing gloves when this went down?
LUCAS: Yeah
REINOLD: O'kay, what kind of gloves?
LUCAS: They're a thin rubber glove that we wear, ah, they're called a dish washing glove, it's a real thick rubber glove.
REINOLD: O'kay, did you have those with you all the time?
LUCAS: Yeah, we carry ‘em with us all the time, ah, we use them so that we don't leave no fingerprints.
REINOLD: Both you aha OTTIS both have ‘em then?
LUCAS: Yeah
REINOLD: O'kay
XHENSLEY: O'kay, could I get you HENRY, just to initial right here. Just put charted by and just put your initials on it.
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HENSLEY: O'kay, thank you, appreciate it. BOB, you got anything before I put these pictures away...
THOMAS: Yeah, this gun that you used to shoot her, a .22, did you kill anyone else with this pistol?
LUCAS: Yeah, down at, well, it, was before that ever happened, ah, I'd shot two (2) people down here, ah, next to Austin, right outside of Austin down here.
THOMAS: Where was that at, do you know?
LUCAS: Ah, down on I-35, ah, the ah, South 1-35 from Austin. 1 went back and pointed the building out to 'em and everything
THOMAS: So the authorities know about this?
LUCAS: Yeah
THOMAS: Have you killed anyone else with this pistol?
LUCAS: Nell, there's been lots of people killed with it, ah, all across the country.
THOMAS: O'kay, let's back up then to when you shot the woman in Little Rock. You left there and where did you go from there?
LUCAS: From there, I went to California.
THOMAS: O'kay, did you kill anyone...
LUCAS: Yeah, they's some people killed out there with it.
THOMAS: Out in California?
LUCAS: Yeah
THOMAS: O'kay, have some officers from there come and talked to you about this?
LUCAS: Yeah, they've came, well they didn't ask me what gun it was or anything I told ‘em where I done away with the gun the best I could remember it.......
the cases and I told ‘em the cases we were involved in.
THOMAS: O'kay, can you tell me one of the towns came and talked to you about. I'm interested in one that you killed with this gun.
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LUCAS: That would have been in ah, let's see, that would up I-5, that would have been San Diego.
THOMAS: San Diego?
LUCAS: I believe I'm right, let's see, ah, well San Diego, they came and then, ah, what's the name of that place, San Francisco, that would have been the one that, ah, where the crime happened in, their the one's that came in after San Diego came in.
THOMAS: So it had been used then around San - San Francisco area.
HENSLEY: O'kay, HENRY, how soon after you left Little Rock, did you use the weapon again?
LUCAS: Three (3), probably a week later.
THOMAS: Approximately a week?
HENSLEY: And where would that be HENRY?
LUCAS: That was on, ah, right out from I-5 there in California.
THOMAS: Near what city, do you recall?
LUCAS: I’d have to show you on a map, I couldn’t tell you...
REINOLD: I got to go back just one second, you said you killed these two (2) people here in Austin with the gun before...
LUCAS: Yeah, that was before, that was back in ’79, ah, that was sometime, I think, the last part of ’79, I don’t remember whether it was October or November now, ’79.
REINOLD: Is this also, HENRY the gun that you said that you pawned...
LUCAS: Yeah
REINOLD: in New Orleans
LUCAS: It’s the same gun
REINOLD: Same, and it was pawned in New Orleans about when?
LUCAS: Ah, we didn’t pawn that until, ah, let me think, ah, let me see, I pawned one in August, June. In June I believe ’81. I pawned one, it’d been a .38.
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REINOLD: That was in New Orleans?
LUCAS: Yeah, let's see, the .22 was pawned was sold to, that was in Monroe, Louisiana I sold that .22 to a colored guy that worked at, I believe it was a Methodist Church there at in Monroe, Louisiana.
REINOLD: How much did you get for it?
LUCAS: Twenty Five dollar; ($25.OO) for the gun. He said they would .22's wouldn't bring nothing so he, he just gave me thirty five dollars ($35.00) for it.
REINOLD: O'kay, was you living there at this time or?
LUCAS:
REINOLD: You just...
LUCAS: We just wanted it for gas money is all I sold it for.
REINOLD: What got you to the Methodist Church?
LUCAS: Travelling, I come through I—20 through Monroe and come on from I-20 into Texas, from Texas to California.
REINOLD: O'kay, this Methodist Church, were you there getting a meal or?...
LUCAS: No
REINOLD: looking for work?
LUCAS: No, we just drove in there and I'd been running around town there looking for a place to sell stuff at.....
REINOLD: Umhuh
LUCAS: and I ran upon this guy working in the yard at a church and I asked him if he wanted to buy it.
REINOLD: O'kay, when was this?
LUCAS: That was in June, I'm pretty sure, of '8l.
REINOLD: Alright
LUCAS: And this other, the .22 would have been sold in, let's see, it'd been sold in '82.
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REINOLD: About what month?
LUCAS: Let me think
REINOLD: That's o'kay, it's really not important right now. Go ahead, I'm sorry.
HENSLEY:' O'Kay, O'kay, HENRY, on the day this mini-mart robbery, where were you coming from when you were in Little Rock there?
LUCAS: I'd come out of Tennessee.
HENSLEY: Had you stopped anywhere though HENRY, what I’m trying to determine anywhere else in Little Rock prior to this or had you just come straight?...
LUCAS: Well, I’d went to the Salvation Army and eat, ah, that’s what down there, it would have been North Little Rock, ah, we went to some church place down there and eat.
HENSLEY: O'kay
LUCAS: The Salvation Army is down, come across from down this away and we had to go back up and back up this away, ah, to where the church was, it's right at a dead end of a one way street. We eat there then come back out of there and went back downtown Little Rock. We on back across there to some park but I don't know what park that was.
HENSLEY: Park? O'kay, I asked you earlier and I don't remember what you said and I didn't jot it down, I asked you what type a day it was, what were the weather conditions? I don't remember what you said.
LUCAS: It was dry, ah dry weather.
HENSLEY: Was it cold you do recall or…
LUCAS: No, not ah, not warm, it was chilly, but not what you say real cold.
HENSLEY: O'kay, did you, in travelling around in that Vista Cruiser, how did you manage to keep warm in the winter time.
LUCAS: Well we had a canvas that we put over the back end of it in the winter.
THOMAS: Would it stay on as you travelled down the interstates?
LUCAS: Oh yeah, we had sort of post that set up, that we set up in the back end of it and we tied the canvas at the front.
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HENSLEY: O'kay
LUCAS: Then we had what you call a drop canvass we dropped down when we didn't have the good canvass on, just dropped the canvass down in the back end of the car.
HENSLEY: Umhuh
LUCAS: Come down the back of the back seat and tied it.
HENSLEY: O'kay and OTTIS was with you all this time?
LUCAS: Yeah, he's with me...
HENSLEY: You took a trip, he's with you?
LUCAS: Yeah
HENSLEY: Ya'll didn't make all your trips together did you?...
LUCAS: Not everyone, nah
HENSLEY: Separately sometimes, did ya not? O'kay, can you tell me, HENRY, I know we're stretching your memory and I know like I said earlier, I have problems myself trying to go back and put myself somewhere at any certain time but I've got information that you were arrested in Maryland in July of 1981, can you tell me, can you substantiate that?
LUCAS: Yeah, I think the 21st or 22nd of July.
HENSLEY: Of July, and what year we talking about?
LUCAS: Of '81
HENSLEY: How long, how long were you incarcerated? How long were you in jail before you was released?
LUCAS: Ah, let me think, I think I got out in October, I'm not sure.
HENSLEY: Did it happen sometime in October, can you get that close or was it?
LUCAS: It was sometime in October I'm pretty sure.
HENSLEY: O'kay, do you know, at that point in time, do you know where OTTIS was staying or where he was while you were incarcerated up there?
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LUCAS: Not really, ah...
HENSLEY: You didn't correspond with him or anything?
LUCAS: No, I didn't have no way to correspond with him.
HENSLEY: So you had no way of knowing where he was?
LUCAS: No
HENSLEY: Well, do you think he would go would travel on his own and you were like...
LUCAS: O'h he's done that a lot of times as far as travel.
HENSLEY: Yeah, and do things on his own, do jobs without you?
LUCAS: O'h yeah he does that, he's got a lot of 'em at ah, well he's got one little boy there in Florida he said he'd doing while I was in jail up in Maryland.
HENSLEY: Umhuh, did he ever mention any to you about the Little Rock without you going to Little Rock without you?
UCAS: He says he's been all over Arkansas without me. He's been over Arkansas, Oklahoma, Texas...
HENSLEY: Doing jobs though?
LUCAS: Yeah
HENSLEY: O'kay
REINOLD: Did you HENRY, did ya'll do this mini-market store, did ya'll do that job before you went to jail in Maryland if you can remember, or did you do it after.
LUCAS: Seems like that was before then seems like it was.
REINOD: O'kay, you did the job before you were in jail.
LUCAS: I believe it was.
REINOLD: O'kay, alright
HENSLEY: O'kay, on November 6, 1981, got information that I haven't substantiated this, but it's information that could.........
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HENSLEY: Were you in Florida in November of '81?
LUCAS: In November yeah, I got cards in November.
HENSLEY: O'kay, were you in Florida the whole month or can you tell me...
LUCAS: Off and on, I wasn't never, I never stayed there or nothing. I was back and forth from different places and........
HENSLEY: O'kay, at that point in time, you're saying that you were back and forth to Florida in No ember of '81, right?
LUCAS: Yeah
HENSLEY: So your recollection serves you to know that must. Does it also, can you recall being in Arkansas at that point in time? Being in, more specifically, Little Rock in the month of November 1981?
LUCAS: November, I couldn't give you a positive on it.
HENSLEY: Alright, could you give me...
LUCAS: I got some cases in California in November.
HENSLEY: I'm sorry, I didn't hear you HENRY.
LUCAS: I say I of some cases in California in November.I.don't know...
HENSLEY: Of that year? Of '81?
LUCAS: Yeah, I don't know whether I went through Little Rock or not at that time.
REINOLD: Was this the first part of November the two cases were or the last part of November, do you remember that in California?
LUCAS: They were the latter, latter part of November, got some in Nevada, California, let's see, I think I got some in Oregon then... in '81.
REINOLD: Going back to what BOB ask you a minute ago, you said you got some in Nevada in '81?
LUCAS: Yeah
REINOLD: Was the gun used in Nevada in '81...
LUCAS: Not that gun
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PAGE NO . 38
REINOLD: Not that gun?
LUCAS: I had .22's but I don't think...
THOMAS: O'kay, HENRY, how much money did ya'll get out of that service station there?
LUCAS: I would guess about one somewhere right around one hundred and fourty dollars ($140.00) somewhere right around $140.00. I couldn't give you no exact amount.
THOMAS: You probably told us this somewhere before but I don't remember, what time of the day was this when this all happened.
LUCAS: That was in the evening.
THOMAS: In the evening?
LUCAS: Yeah
THOMAS: Was there a lot of traffic or was it a holiday or Sunday or was the traffic extremely busy or was it moderate, how would you describe that?
LUCAS: Light
THOMAS: Light traffic? You sure about that?
LUCAS: Yeah, I'm sure about that. At least it was light where I was at.....
THOMAS: When the incident occurred is what we're discussing here HENRY, and you're saying it was light traffic.
LUCAS: Yes
THOMAS: O'kay, you didn't have no trouble getting on out and getting around then?
LUCAS: No
REINOLD: Back on our map there just a second HENRY, again would you kind of show me where you think here on this state map you think this thing occurred?
LUCAS: That would have been.....
REINOLD: O'kay, that' fine
LUCAS: It should have been somewhere in this area, ah, here.
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REINOLD: This is where the convenience store?
LUCAS: The best I can remember it was.
REINOLD: O'kay, do you remember after you did the job, did you go out and get on the freeway?
LUCAS: I had to travel quite a ways before I got on the freeway.
REINOLD: O'kay, you mean by going down city streets?
LUCAS: Yeah, city streets and also what they call an off ramp through there, a service road.
REINOLD: Service road, access road.
LUCAS: Yeah
REINOLD: When you got on the freeway, or did you get on the freeway?
LUCAS: Ah
REINOLD: After going down this access for a ways?
LUCAS: Yeah I got on the freeway, let's see, I got on the turnpike somewhere a long in there.
REINOLD: O'kay, when you got on the turnpike, can you remember before you got on the turnpike, did you across the bridge that goes across the river or did you, I guess what I'm getting at, did you have to cross the bridge that went across the river you see here on the map we've got a river that runs right through?
LUCAS: Yeah, I was on the turnpike before I went across the bridge.
REINOLD: Then you headed from there going...
LUCAS: Going on...
REINOLD: going west.
LUCAS: going west.
REINOLD: So you did the job, drove down the access road?
LUCAS: Yeah, drove the access road, well the stop sign and another street, coming off of it and on down here some more streets....
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REINOLD: Umhuh
LUCAS: went on back out and hit I-640.
REINOLD: O'kay, you went across the bridge before you did the job or did you go across the bridge after you done it?
LUCAS: After I done the job.
REINOLD: You went across the river after you did the job?
LUCAS: Yeah
REINOLD: O'kay
LUCAS: Yeah, it was after that.
HENSLEY: O'kay, now HENRY, we're talking about the Arkansas River bridge, right?
LUCAS: I guess a big long, bridge through there.
REINOLD: Umhuh, quite a bit of water it was not, I mean...
LUCAS: Yeah
REINOLD: It was the river, you think?
LUCAS: At least that's what I think, I don't remember.
REINOLD: O'kay
LUCAS: I don't think it was a lake
REINOLD: O'kay
HENSLEY: O'kay, what I'd like to do HENRY and I realize it's extremely difficult to try to do this to put more of time on it. After you did the job HENRY and you and OTTIS jumped in the car, get in the car whatever, get back, you make your way back out, you said you travelled for some distance on access roads...
LUCAS: Yes
HENSLEY: O'kay then you went on North and you ended up on I-40 going west, at what point did it start to get dark on you, in other words, how much travelling are you, had you done before it starts to get dark?
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HENSLEY: Maybe this'll help put this in a time frame better cause you say...
LUCAS: We didn't travel no where til it got dark as far as dark enough you had to turn the lights on.
HENSLEY: O'kay, in other words, you're saying...
LUCAS: No where
HENSLEY: It was dark enough to turn the lights on when you left there? Was it totally dark when you left there?
LUCAS: I'm pretty sure it was. Pretty sure it was dark. I don't remember, the only thing I remember is putting the lights on from the service station there
HENSLEY: O'kay, was there any discussion of this following the incident HENRY, with you and OTTIS as far as OTTIS, you'd stated earlier you didn't see him rob the black guy but you have every reason to believe he did. Did he tell you, did he make any kind of statement to lead you to believe that he robbed him?
LUCAS: Well he said he got five ($5.00) from the guy, that's the only guy he talked to is the black guy.
HENSLEY: Umhuh, O'kay, but he didn't say, what did he say in regards to to the black guy?
LUCAS: He told me he made the guy leave....not to go in the store.
HENSLEY: I'm having trouble following you, he made the black guy not go in the store?
LUCAS: The black guy was headed in the store and OTTIS told him he couldn't go in to leave.
HENSLEY: O'kay, did OTTIS have his gun in his hand at that point in time?
LUCAS: Yeah, he had the gun in his hand
HENSLEY: So he, he held him at gun point from going in the store. Is that correct? Is that the way you remember it or you'd see...
LUCAS: That's the way I seen it.
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HENSLEY: O'kay
LUCAS: He had the gun out in his hand when he was talking to the colored guy.
REINOLD: How come he didn't shoot him?
LUCAS: That I don't know. It's a wonder he hadn't of though, as much as OTTIS hates niggers.
REINOLD: That bad huh?
LUCAS: You ain't kidding, you mix em niggers and OTTIS you're in trouble.
REINOLD: O'kay
LUCAS: Why he ever let the guy go I don't know
HENSLEY: Well he was busy with other things I guess right then, wasn't he HENRY?
THOMAS: When did you buy this Oldsmobile?
LUCAS: I bought that back in ah, 'way back in ah the last of '80, I believe it was.
THOMAS: You said earlier that you was in Florida cause you bought some vehicles in November of '81.
LUCAS: Yeah I bought ah a Ford in December, yeah December I bought a brown Dodge, ah...
THOMAS: O'kay, let's go.back to November on the Ford you bought. Where did you buy it at?
LUCAS: I bought it from Spencer's. That was in December.
THOMAS: In December?
LUCAS: Yeah. I bought a Chevrolet in November.
THOMAS: O'kay, where did you buy it?
LUCAS: Spencer's Auto
THOMAS: And what part of November was this?
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LUCAS: It was right around the first, I believe. October or the first of November.
THOMAS: From Spencer's?
LUCAS: Yeah
REINOLD: What kind of vehicle again?
LUCAS: Chevrolet stationwagon, ah, green, green stationwagon. I kept it for about three weeks, three or four weeks and took one back and got another one, another used car dealer, that was down there by the little "H" Street, course.......
HENSLEY: Now let's stop right there
HENSLEY: Now you did all of this in Jacksonville, Florida
LUCAS: Yeah, they were all bought in Jacksonville but they were all bought at different times.
THOMAS: O'kay, but how much travelling did you do between the time that you bought the Chevrolet and you bought the other car.
LUCAS: Approximately, about seven, eight, I put about 9000 miles on that car before I went and bought the other one. That was in a months time.
HENSLEY: O'kay, let's, let me ask you something else. I understood earlier today when we started when you came through Little Rock where you robbed this convenience store, you's coming down from up North, is that right?
LUCAS: No, I come out of Memphis.
HENSLEY: O'kay, you came out of Memphis, where was you coming from, where had you been?
LUCAS: I'd been all the way up in Michigan.
HENSLEY: You'd been up in Michigan?
LUCAS: Yeah
HENSLEY: You came down and came through Arkansas, that's when you robbed the convenience store?
LUCAS: Yeah, that's the same time I robbed the convenience store, yeah.
HENSLEY: O'kay, where the woman was shot?
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LUCAS: Yeah
HENSLEY: O'kay, how did you get from there down to Jacksonville, Florida? I don't understand...
LUCAS: Well I made a round trip. I went on from there to California, from California back through Texas, let's see, I went to California, Oregon, Washington, from Washington back to Oregon, from Oregon to Nevada, from Nevada to New Mexico, from New Mexico back into Texas and from Texas back into Florida. And I done had 'em check my time out.
THOMAS: What, they already verified all this?
LUCAS: They know I can do it.
REINOLD: I understand from what they tell me, you like to drive a lot and be on the move, correct?
LUCAS: Well I don't sleep.
THOMAS: So these dates on this thing...
LUCAS: That don't mean nothing, I tell you the way it is.
THOMAS: These aren't...
LUCAS: They're not accurate dates, they're just dates that I gave 'em really some of 'em the best I could remember being certain places.
THOMAS: So this one that says you's in Jacksonville, Florida on November 6th...
LUCAS: Unless that's ah the day I bought the car, that's the only way I could tell you or picked up an insurance policy one. That'd be the only way it could be accurate?
THOMAS: O'kay, where did you pick up an insurance policy at?
LUCAS: I got the papers here in my billfold.
THOMAS: Does it have the date on it that you picked it up?
LUCAS: I think it does.
THOMAS: O'kay
FINOLD: Where is your billfold? They have it out here?
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LUCAS: Out there, yeah.
HENSLEY: You mind letting us look at it?
LUCAS: No, they made a copy of it and put it someplace but I couldn't tell you where it was at. all the papers I had in my pocket. I had insurance police and...
HENSLEY: Well now this on trip that came through Arkansas, that's the only trip you remember coming through there in November?
LUCAS: Yeah, I's through there in October once.
HENSLEY: O'kay, but as far as November, this is the only time?
LUCAS: It'd be the only time that I can remember.
HENSLEY: Well how many days did it t ke you to make this trip through Arkansas into California and through Washington and Oregon. how many days did it take you to make this trip?
LUCAS: All together about about eight (8) days, close to eight (8) days, that's stopping, getting beer and getting some drugs taking.....back off again.
THOMAS: Neccessities of life I guess.
HENSLEY: Let me ask you HENRY, when you went in the store, you and OTTIS was in the store, I keep taken you back inside because there's a couple of things we want to go over that we haven't touched on and that is, why did you shoot her, in other words, she didn't, I don't recall you saying she resisted or anything or tried to give you any trouble did she?
LUCAS: I think the main reason she got shot was because she reached under the counter.
THOMAS: O'kay, you correct me if I'm wrong but you said earlier you said she started to reach under the counter and OTTIS told her to get up and she stood back up and that's when you shot her.
LUCAS: Yeah, that's when I shot her.
THOMAS: But had she, was she making any kind of an effort HENRY, to resist or do anything in that store?
LUCAS: No
THOMAS: O'kay, do you recall any money being left laying on the floor in that store when you left, did you see any money laying on the floor where
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THOMAS: someone had dropped it, maybe someone...
LUCAS: Not unless OTTIS dropped some when he was in there.
HENSLEY: O'kay, you didn't see the victim, the female, with, did you get all the money she had?
LUCAS: I thought I did.
HENSLEY: O'kay, you didn't see any drop? Did you see a safe in that store?
LUCAS: They was something underneath the cash register but I couldn't tell you what it was, ah, some kink of a box type thing.
HENSLEY: O'kay, do you remember her asking any kind of a move trying to stuff money in that safe?
LUCAS: That might have been what she went down there for I don't know.
HENSLEY: Well, I'm just saying, did you see HENRY...
LUCAS: No
HENSLEY: you didn't see anything, you didn't see any money lying on the floor?
LUCAS: No I didn't
HENSLEY: O'kay
LUCAS: ' it's look like if there was money lying there though OTTIS would have seen it, he was back there.
HENSLEY: O'kay, You'll would have probably took the time, you wasn't in no great hurry don't seem like so you would have took the time to pick it up ordinarily, would you not?
LUCAS: Yeah we'd of pick it up.
REINOLD: About how much room was behind that counter do you remember, Henry, was it a bit long counter like this table or...
LUCAS: No it's short, it's short place, it ain't no big long one.
REINOLD: Like short, would you kink of describe it with using this table and the wall there, just kink of ...
LUCAS: O'h I'd saying probably about half the size of this table, a place, in there, maybe about half the size of this table.
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REINOLD: Is that the counter or is that the room in the back, you know behind the counter, how much...
LUCAS: That's a little walk way like in there and there's a door comes out goes out into the out in the store itself.
REINOLD: The door that comes out...
LUCAS: Yeah the door believe it's the door that comes out
REINOLD: Is that around by the end of the counter or where was that at?
LUCAS: It was next to well it was down this a way from the counter, from the end of the counter where I was standing, it was down this a way....
THOMAS: Here we go HENRY.
LUCAS: I got down in this area someplace.
THOMAS: Where the door is?
LUCAS: Yes
HENSLEY: Was it a swinging type door like this or was it one that you fold up or what kind of door we talking about?
LUCAS: Seems like it was swinging door.
HENSLEY: Swinging door?
LUCAS: Yeah, I stopped here and OTTIS went on down here and went in and...
THOMAS: Did he go around, when you say go down here and go in, did he go around at the end and go in?
LUCAS: Yeah he went at the end whatever was setting there, I don't remember what was setting there now but he went to the end of this and went in.
REINOLD: Right here is the end of this counter right?
LUCAS: Yeah
REINOLD: O'kay and over here is the other end and it's about the size of this table, half the size of this table?
LUCAS: I'd say about the half the size of this, I mean the, the little room where she was hiding sitting on the stool, sort of a well it's a small
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PAGE NO. 48
LUCAS: area, it's not a a great big area.
REINOLD: You have any interior photos in here?
THOMAS: Yeah
HENSLEY: HENRY, did you'll intend to kill her when you went in there?
LUCAS: No, we had no intention of killing her. We didn't even know it was a woman really, I didn t, no 'till I got in there.
REINOLD: You see anybody else getting gas while you'll were there getting gas, anybody come and go besides the black man and the man on the telephone, was there anybody else around before or...
LUCAS: They was somebody pulled out just as, just before we pulled in.
REINOLD: Where were they at when you say they pulled out?
LUCAS: They were already leaving out the drive-way.
REINOLD: Leaving out the drive-way.
THOMAS: Here we go playing with the photographs, can't ever find what I need...
REINOLD: In other words you met them at the drive-way when you were pulling in you say?
LUCAS: No they were pulling out, I come in the other way and they's coming out this a way.
REINOLD: O'kay, do you remember what kind of vehicle that was?
LUCAS: About the only thing I can tell you, it was sort of a blueish.
REINOLD: The car leaving you thought was kind of blueish.
LUCAS: That's about the best I can tell you.
REINOLD: O'kay, I got some big inside photos. What do you think, FRED, about this other picture.
THOMAS: Which one?
REINOLD: The approach
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THOMAS: You mean to show on video tape?
REINOLD: Yeah,
THOMAS: Yeah, when we get through here, it wouldn't hurt, it wouldn't take that long, how long will it take to show it?
REINOLD: Well without going panning out everything that was on the inside, I could probably speed up, I hope, just that one or both of those two, it wouldn't take...
THOMAS: See if I can find the picture you're looking for here. That's not it.
REINOLD: It's one with the Marlboro sign here.
THOMAS: Does that ring any kind of a bell to you?
LUCAS: Yeah, but that door's down this a way from here.
THOMAS: O'kay let me see here. The door is down this a way?
LUCAS: Yeah
REINOLD: The door to get behind the counter?
LUCAS: Yeah
REINOLD: O'kay
LUCAS: It seems like it was down this a way somewhere.
THOMAS: O'kay, it's be to the right looking at the, looking at the picture?
LUCAS: Yeah, I'm pretty sure that's right.
THOMAS: I'm gonna right this down
LUCAS: No, I'm wrong
REINOLD: Say you're wrong?
LUCAS: I'm wrong, cause OTTIS went off to my left.
REINOLD: O'kay, now I'm the woman this time, O'kay?
LUCAS: Facing me and OTTIS went off this away.
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REINOLD: OTTIS went to your left?
LUCAS: Yeah
REINOLD: I'm standing here, I'm the woman behind the counter now.
LUCAS: Yeah, see the woman, I's standing here and OTTIS went out this a way.
REINOLD: He went out that a way to go behind the counter?
LUCAS: Yeah, he went to my left.
REINOLD: O'kay, while you're, while we got you in this position here after you shot the woman and all that and got the money, which way did you turn and go to leave the store?
LUCAS: I turned around, I turned to my right and went back around this a way.
REINOLD: You turned to your right and went back around and went out the door?
LUCAS: Yeah
REINOLD: How long were you in the store total time, just give me a guess, from the time you first walked in until after you robbed and shot and out you went, approximately how long were you in there?
LUCAS: Approximately 15 minutes maybe, 15 or 20 minutes.
REINOLD: 15 to 20 minutes? And during this a conversation with the lady?
LUCAS: No, not a conversation.
REINOLD: Did you get any food or any cigarettes or anything like that, ya'll order anything like that from her?
LUCAS: We got, we'd gotten some food, we got some lunch meat, we got some break, stuff like that, we didn't pay for that stuff.
REINOLD: You got it out of the same store?
LUCAS: Yeah
HENSLEY: You go ahead and pick that up HENRY before...
LUCAS: I picked that up as I's coming out.
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HENSLEY: Oh, o'kay
LUCAS: Coming out of the store
HENSLEY: O'kay, but you didn't have a conversation with this lady in the store or say anything to her up until the time you decided to rob her, right.
LUCAS: No
HENSLEY: O'kay, how did you decide to rob this store, did you just drive by along and say we're going to rob the next place we come to or did you drive by and look at it or what, what made you decide...
LUCAS: Well that was just a spare of the moment, we just pulled in there and decided, OTTIS just decided he wanted to rob it so I said O'kay and we went out and got the gas so that the woman would have to open the cash register.
HENSLEY: Umhuh
LUCAS: And after we got the cash register opened that's when I told her that I wanted her money.
REINOLD: Why would you have stayed in there 15 or 20 minutes before you did it, I mean...
LUCAS: Walking around in the store.
REINOLD: Just kind of looking around at things?
LUCAS: Yeah
REINOLD: During this time, no body came or...
LUCAS: Let's see, I got a coke, got a coke over coke machine..
REINOLD: O'kay
LUCAS: OTTIS he got something another but I don't know what it was.
REINOLD: During that 15 or 20 minutes you say no body came or went?
LUCAS: Not that I seen.
OMAS: Wasn't a lot of activity around there?
LUCAS: No
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HENSLEY: What about the inside of the store in there where you all were walking around looking. Did you have quite a bit of room to walk in there or was it a pretty good size place or...
LUCAS: No, it ain't that big in there as far as walking around in there, it's ah, they got shelves and ah, machines, milk machine setting there...
HENSLEY: When you did that did she ever act like she was watching you guys or did she ever, you ever think she was suspicious that you might be spending that kind of time in there, did she act like she might be watching you or anything?
LUCAS: Well she watched all the time we were in there as far as watching is goes.
HENSLEY: But she never said anything
LUCAS: No
HENSLEY: Does that look anything like the inside as you?
LUCAS: .....
HENSLEY: What's different about it as far as you can determine there?
LUCAS: I don't remember it being jammed up like that.
HENSLEY: You don't remember it being that close in there?
LUCAS: No, the shelves are about the right direction but ...
HENSLEY: You don't remember it being that small then or that close whatever?
LUCAS: I just don't remember that big of space in there.
HENSLEY: O'kay, that it?
HENSLEY: What do you think, got anything you want to ask him?
REINOLD: I think we're going to give you a little break here LUCAS and ah get a cup of coffee.
HENSLEY: What we're gonna do is try to show you some video tapes of, color video tapes of some, of the buildings outside, a couple of buildings and let you get a look at them and see what you think, see if you can help us out there HENRY if you would.
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LUCAS: Yeah if I can I will.
HENSLEY: O'kay
REINOLD: Let me see if I can't get our electronic technician in here and while I'm at it I'll shut this off. You want a cup of coffee?
LUCAS: I'd appreciate one.
REINOLD: All righty. I'll be shutting the tape off at this time, we're preparing to show some videos of convenience in and around the Little Rock area for possible identification by HENRY LUCAS.
REINOLD: You advised HENRY that tape #1 there, the first one you videoed had nothing...
LUCAS: Ain't nothing
REINOLD: Nothing at that one. O'kay, we're gonna go ahead and try to tape #2. HENRY you advised on tape #2 that it was nothing like...
LUCAS: Ain't nothing like this one here.
REINOLD: The one you robbed is nothing like tape #2?
LUCAS: No
REINOLD: O'kay, we're going to continue on with tape #3. O'kay?
REINOLD: You advised on tape #3 there HENRY, that there was nothing on there at all?
LUCAS: Nothing except the apartment house, that's the only thing that I could relate to.
REINOLD: O'kay, we'll go right on to tape #4.
LUCAS: The way the drive-way is.
REINOLD: The way the drive-way is looks familiar? Why would that drive-way look familiar right now?
LUCAS: Just the way it's curved going in there. I'd say that's the same one.
REINOLD: Why would you say that’s the same one, HENRY?
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LUCAS: The way that truck went out.
REINOLD: The way the truck went out?
LUCAS: Yeah
REINOLD: Why would ...
LUCAS: going out another road going out there on another street.
REINOLD: O'kay
LUCAS: There's a school down there too.
REINOLD: Where? Which way?
LUCAS: Be the left of the store
REINOLD: You remember that?
LUCAS: Remember a school...I came by that school first.
REINOLD: You came by the school first?
LUCAS: That's how I come in there by the school.
REINOLD: O'kay
LUCAS: The cash register's the other way
REINOLD: Say the cash register's back
LUCAS: The way I'm setting here.
REINOLD: O'kay
HENSLEY: O'kay, do you remember a cold drink machine in there, you said there's a coke machine in there...
LUCAS: Same counter
REINOLD: That's the same counter? Why do you say it's the same counter?
LUCAS: Way it's turned.
REINOLD: The way it's what?
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LUCAS: The way it's turned.
REINOLD: Way it turns?
LUCAS: The safe went down in there.
HENSLEY: Directly under the cash register? Are you saying directly under the cash register?
LUCAS: Yeah, I believe it as right straight down from the cash register, right here... cash register. That's exactly the place.
REINOLD: That's the same place?
LUCAS: That's the same place.
REINOLD: Do you remember that?
LUCAS: I remember that sign....I parked right over there
REINOLD: Parked right over...
LUCAS: Over at...that's the school right over there, I can't...it's here.
REINOLD: You went to the direction here?
LUCAS: I went here, the school and came back here and went in here, that's exactly and that guy was standing just like that guy, brown, with the brown coat on.
REINOLD: Stand like which?
LUCAS: The one standing, first, standing the way that guy was standing.
REINOLD: That's the one on the phone?
LUCAS: Yeah, exactly same one.
REINOLD: So that's the same...
LUCAS: Same one I robbed.
REINOLD: That's the same one you robbed?
LUCAS: Seems like that's in there close to University, I ain't positive but it seems like it is.
REINOLD: Any of that look familiar?
FILE NUMBER: CRIME:
ASP-3
PAGE NO. 56
LUCAS: Yeah
REINOLD: O'kay
THOMAS: That's it....
REINOLD: HENRY on tape #4 you advised the investigators that...
LUCAS: That's the same place I robbed.
REINOLD: So that tape #4 depicts the same place that you robbed? O'kay, we'll continue on with the interview from here.
THOMAS: I'm just gonna leave that one in there.
REINOLD: O'kay
THOMAS: Back up
REINOLD: HENRY, let's just hypothetical say then O'kay, we found the place that you robbed....
LUCAS: The only way it wouldn't be if there is two places exactly alike and don't think they are.
REINOLD: You're saying if there was another place like that then...
LUCAS: Exactly like it
REINOLD: Exactly like that? O'kay - let me ask you...
THOMAS: Excuse me
LUCAS: Come back on it if you want me to
....we're not far from just rapping it up.
REINOLD: I think we're just very close.
LUCAS: O'kay
REINOLD: If that was the placed that you robbed, you did your crime, is there anything you could tell us or anything we need to do to prove that you did that, I mean that's kind of dumb for me to ask that questions...
LUCAS: I don't know.
FILE NUMBER : CRIME:
ASP-3
PAGE NO. 57
LUCAS: I don't know.
REINOLD: Now we've got you saying you did it now how can we prove you did it?
LUCAS: Only with OTTIS but I don't know whether OTTIS'll react to it, I couldn't tell you that.
REINOLD: You think that if we showed these tapes to OTTIS...
LUCAS: He's remember
REINOLD: You think he'd remember it?
LUCAS: I'm pretty sure, the only thing he wouldn't is being on them drugs he's on now.
REINOLD: O'kay, we get him all straightened out then we could possibly show it to OTTIS and he might or he should remember.
LUCAS: Yeah, he'll remember
REINOLD: He would remember it too?
LUCAS: He got a pretty good memory for places and faces but as far as roads or something he wouldn't know them.
REINOLD: Yeah
LUCAS: As far as places he would remember 'em.
REINOLD: O'kay, let me ask you another little thing, say now if OTTIS didn't remember it, now we've got HENRY saying that did this, you follow what I'm asking you, how can you...
REINOLD: How can we go ahead and make sure because we don't want to lay anything on you and we don't want you to take any thing that is, you know, we're trying ...
LUCAS: I don't know unless the guy there would have recognized me there at the building.
REINOLD: Which guy?
LUCAS: The colored guy, he may recognize me.
FILE NUMBER: CRIME:
ASP-3
PAGE NO. 58
REINOLD: Why would you think he might recognize you, did he have a chance to talk to you or say something?
LUCAS: He had a chance to see me.as far as seeing me. He would recognize OTTIS almost for sure I know
?????????
LUCAS: Cause OTTIS stopped right there and talked to him so if, if OTTIS took five dollars ($5.00) from him an he ought to remember what this guy looked like, right?
THOMAS: Yeah
THOMAS: Whether he took it by, you know, a gun in his hand...
LUCAS: Yeah he'd remember that, there ain't no doubt about it.
REINOLD: O'kay, so now we've got OTTIS and we've got the colored guy.
HENSLEY: O'kay, does OTTIS bear any resemblance at all in your mind to the man on the telephone, could that be, could that be confusing, you know, are they alike in appearance?
LUCAS: Well OTTIS is sort of heavy built, not really, he looks muscular built looking.
HENSLEY: OTTIS'S type of individual though, he's features are such that if someone were to, were to come into contact with him they would remember his appearance, would they not, he's...
LUCAS: Well if you can get him when he's shaved they should, he was un-shaved at that time.
HENSLEY: Right
LUCAS: He's got a beard now
HENSLEY: Then
LUCAS: Cleaned shaven
HENSLEY: a man would remember him once he's seen him, come face to face with him chances are he would?
LUCAS: Yeah
FILE NUMBER : CRIME:
ASP-3
PAGE NO. 59
REINOLD: So we only, there's only two (2) other ways we can prove that you did it, is that right?
LUCAS: That's the only ones I know.
REINOLD: OTTIS....and there's nothing else that you can, and a possibility there we could prove you did it if we could find the gun.
LUCAS: Well that's another possibility.
REINOLD: Umhuh
HENSLEY: Or if we could find someone that seen that Vista Cruiser.
REINOLD: Yeah
HENSLEY: Now that's not the type of vehicle that you would over-look.
LUCAS: Now the Vista Cruiser, I don' know where it's at now, ah...
HENSLEY: Well
LUCAS: ... I think it's probably been destroyed.
HENSLEY: HENRY, what we need to do is find someone that's seen the vehicle at the scene. Now the Vista Cruiser stationwagon cut down into a pick-up truck with a canvass over it,
LUCAS: Yeah
HENSLEY: someone's would remember that if that'd seen it, chances are.
LUCAS: Yeah they should.
REINOLD: I know this is...
LUCAS: It looked just like a Camino, El Camino as far as far as the shape goes.
HENSLEY: When ya'll got through with it? Did you do that work yourself?
LUCAS: Yeah
HENSLEY: You have a tarp on, excuse me JERRY, did you have the tarp on...
LUCAS: No
HENSLEY: Tarp was down?
FILE NUMBER: CRIME :
ASP-3
PAGE NO. 60
LUCAS: Tarp was down.
HENSLEY: So it was open?
LUCAS: It was open in the back just like a pick-up.
HENSLEY: Was it open to the driver, could the driver get all the draft from the back or did you have it...
LUCAS: Well I had to drop the canvass down.
HENSLEY: From behind the seat then?
LUCAS: Yeah
HENSLEY: O'kay
LUCAS: Had a drop canvass with a plastic window in the back.
HENSLEY: Oh, o'kay
LUCAS: In there
REINOLD: I know this is another silly question to ask but I need to ask it for myself here, did you tell anybody about this, I know, or do you think OTTIS, now I know that, ah...
LUCAS: Not unless he's told 'em since we started confessing to our crimes.
REINOLD: O'kay, I know that they's you and OTTIS and two other people that you don't want to mention.
LUCAS: Yeah
REINOLD: O'kay, those two (2) people and OTTIS and you..
LUCAS: Well the reason I don't want to mention one of 'em he's in a mental hospital.
REINOLD: We understand
LUCAS: The other one's dead so...
REINOLD: O'kay
LUCAS: It wouldn't be no help there.
FILE NUMBER: CRIME:
ASP-3
PAGE NO. 61
THOMAS: All right
REINOLD: O'kay, they were the only, they are the only four people that know who committed this crime.
LUCAS: That's it.
REINOLD: Other than you and...
LUCAS: Other than .__________ plus the colored guy, he knows it if he recognized me.
REINOLD: Well for my part, I'm concluded with it and I want to thank you for being patient with us and spending some time, we got a couple more days we're gonna be here with you probably, you've been a great help HENRY; we really appreciate it.
THOMAS: We do and if there is anything that you need that we can get for you why, holler at us, we'll be around the next couple of days.
REINOLD: Let me conclude the tape, the interview of HENRY LUCAS and the time is going to be 3:18 on 1-5-84 and this will be the end of this tape.
FILE NUMBER: T-41 CRIME:
CRIMINAL INVESTIGATION DIVISION
ASP-3-A
DATE: JUNE 20, 1984
DICTATED BY: LIEUTENANT DOUG STEPHENS
DATE TYPED: JUNE 20, 1984
COPIES TO: LIEUTENANT STEPHENS (4)
INTERVIEW OF SUSPECT
Suspect is HENRY LEE LUCAS, white male, dob: 8/23/36, inmate at Williamson County Jail, Georgetown, Texas.
HENRY LEE LUCAS was interviewed on May 16 1984 at 9:00 a.m. at the Williamson County Jail in Georgetown, Texas by GENE NOBLES and JOHN HALL, Little Rock, Arkansas in the presence of Texas Ranger BOB CLAYTON.
This interview was tape recorded by Texas Ranger BOB CLAYTON. The cassette recordings were subsequently mailed to Lieutenant DOUG STEPHENS, ASP CID, Little Rock, Arkansas who has custody of those tapes.
Attached is a transcript of that recorded interview.
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