Ten days after a Utah judge found him guilty of trying to kidnap Carol DaRonch from a Murray shopping mall, Ted Bundy sat in the Salt Lake County Jail with his lawyer beside him and a tape recorder on the table. Across from him were two men who had driven 400 miles from Aspen: Mike Fisher, chief investigator for the district attorney of Colorado's Ninth Judicial District, and Detective W. H. Baldridge of the Pitkin County sheriff's office. It was March 11, 1976. Fisher said at the outset that they had come about one day, January 12, 1975.
That evening Caryn Campbell, a 23-year-old registered nurse from Dearborn, Michigan, walked from the lobby of the Wildwood Inn at Snowmass Village toward her room to fetch a magazine and was never seen alive again. She was there with her fiancé, a doctor attending a medical conference, and his two children. A passing motorist found her body beside a road along Owl Creek on February 17. Fisher had spent the year since interviewing more than a hundred people, and by the time of this interview he had Bundy's gasoline credit card receipts, which showed him buying fuel in Colorado around that date. Much of the questioning is about those trips, his Volkswagen, his skiing and a pair of snow chains.
Bundy answers every question and admits nothing, and his lawyer, John O'Connell, breaks in throughout. In October 1976 Colorado charged him with Caryn Campbell's murder, and in January 1977 he was taken to Aspen to stand trial. He jumped from a window of the Pitkin County Courthouse that June and escaped from the Glenwood Springs jail that December, and he was never tried for her death. In the Florida death house in 1989 he confessed to killing her.
The typist labeled every turn Q: or A: and never named the speaker, and those labels are kept exactly as typed. Q: is usually Fisher, though Baldridge asks some questions, and near the end Fisher asks him, by his first name, whether he has anything else. A: is usually Bundy but is often O'Connell, beginning with the long statement on the first page about Colorado refusing to share its evidence, where the speaker refers to "Mr. Bundy" in the third person. A transcript of this interview that circulates online with every line attributed by name was retyped by someone who assigned those names, and we have not used it. The last few pages concern his questioning earlier that day by an officer of Utah's Adult Probation and Parole Department, preparing the report for his sentencing in the DaRonch case. The recording ends with Fisher asking how to shut the machine off.
Nothing Bundy says here is a confession, and his account of his Colorado trips should not be read as fact. The interview has value because it records what Colorado investigators knew and asked in March 1976, nearly a year before he was brought to Aspen, and how Bundy and his lawyer handled the questions. His confession to Campbell's murder came thirteen years later and was never tested in a courtroom.
This is a record of the Colorado Ninth Judicial District Attorney's office, and public records of a state prosecutor carry no copyright. Our copy comes from a scan of that office's file posted to the Internet Archive under the title "Ted Bundy documents from 9th Judicial DA's office." A certified copy can be requested from the District Attorney for the Ninth Judicial District in Glenwood Springs.
The scanned pages had been photographed sideways, and after they were turned upright every word was read by optical character recognition. It has not been proofread against the page images, and the errors are left as the machine read them, among them "llth of March", "AIl right", "ALL fight" for all right and "am emergency". Six turn labels also came out misread as GO:, QO: and OG:, and because we cannot tell which of Q: or A: each one was, they stand as read. We removed the running header at the top of each page and the OCR noise around the title line, joined lines broken by the typewriter margin, including one word broken across lines, remem-ber, and kept every other hyphen. There are 187 Q: turns and 191 A: turns.
Interrogation of Theodore Robert Bundy
Mike Fisher
March 11, 1976
Q: Today's what, his, dei. right?
A: Sure.
Q: This is the llth of March, 1976, we're at the Salt Lake County Jail in Salt Lake City, Utah. Present are Detective Baldridge of the Sheriff's Office, Aspen, Colorado, speaking is, uh, Mike Fisher, investigator for the District Attorney's office of Aspen, Colorado, Mr. John O'Connell, sihalhe the representative for Mr., uh, Theodore Bundy, who is present, being, uh, interviewed at this time. Uh, I think it would be best, I imagine Ted has probably been advised of his rights on several occasions so far, so we may as well go ahead and advise Ted of his rights again, unless that you're sure that he's aware of, uh, of his rights. ‘Cause we're primarily going to be talking with Ted about his presence in Colorado in or about January of 1975 specifically, right now.
A: I want to start out by saying that, uh, for the last five or six months we have been attempting through local law enforcement agencies and through the county attorney's office to get information on the Colorado cases. We have been constantly informed the Colorado, the authorities in Colorado refuse to allow them to release any information, and so all the information we have is that information that has been leaked to the press by the Colorado authorities. And, uh, it's very difficult to respond to questions about something, especially something that happened a year ago I suppose, uh, knowing very little about it. Mr. Bundy has been subjected to these Kafka-type interrogations before and, uh, they can lead to confusion. Uh, I think that it ought to start out with, uh, you telling us something about what you're investigating. You start throwing questions out and we don't know what's significant and what isn't. It's kind of hard to, uh, uh, to answer the | questions. When Mr. Forbes first interrogated Mr. Bundy he was asking questions, apparently from all over the United States, and, uh, at kind of random, uh, it's just a little difficult to figure out what's an important question and give it some thought to throw off a cop attack. Also, Mr. Bundy does not have his gas records and things like that, so dates are very difficult. If you have those records and show them to him I suppose that might help.
Q: OK, what we're, what we're here for, uh, specifically, is Kar--, uh, a murder which involved a young lady by the name of Karyn Campbell. It occurred near A Aspen, January 12, 1975. All right? Now that's specifically what we're going to be talking to Mr. Bundy about now.
A: All right. On the gas records, can you get the dates that he was in Colorado. Is this the first, is this, there were three days I understand that he was in Colorado. Is this the first, is this the first day?
Q: This is the case that Mr. Baldridge and I are investigating now here. AIl right? This is the Karyn Campbell case on that particular date, so we are, we're interested in activities from, let's say January 10, which would have been Friday, through January 12th and 13th of that year, that time period during January of 1975.
A: Well, all I've got to say is that it might assist him in answering those questions to know what, unless you do know, Ted, what trips we're talking about. He doesn't have "em down by dates. OK, so if\)this is, this is the first trip to Colorado he might be able to, he might be able to recall if he knows which is in the series. Do you have that information?
Q: We, we know, but I thought it was, the other ones were in March and April or something like that.
A: Yeah, those were the other, those were cases. So this would be the first one.
Q: This is the first. OK, now before I go any further, since you are Ted's attorney, I feel, even with you present, I should advise him of his rights. I know you've probably heard them, Ted, and I know you're, uh, a pre-law student and what not, so if you would bear with me one more time.
A: Go, go ahead, do it, I mean one more time, we're not embarrassed.
Q: Before we ask, we ask any questions you must understand your rights. You have the right to remain silent. Do you understand that, Ted?
A: (Failed to reply)
Q: Anything you say could be used against you in court. Do you understand that? Doesn't necessarily mean that it would or would not. You have the right to talk to a lawyer for advise before we ask you any questions, and to have him | with you during questioning, and Mr. O'Connell, your attorney, is present now. Do you understand that? As Yes. |
Q: OK. If you cannot afford a lawyer one will be appointed to you before any questioning if you wish. Mr. O'Connell is here, I would imagine he came with you. If you decide to answer questions now without a lawyer present, you'll still have the right to stop answering at any time. You also have the right to stop answering at any time until you can talk to a lawyer. Have you talked to Mr. O'Connell about Detective Baldridge and myself speaking to you?
A: Yes, I have.
Q: And, do you, with him being present right now, elect to answer the questions that we will ask of you now?
A: I, uh, I'd like to have the right to listen to them, and I'll do the best I can to recall any information I might have. I, I won't answer questions that I'm unsure of or that I don’t have adequate information to respond to. They're talking about, as I say, trip and things that happened some time ago, so it really--
Q: Now, ;
A: I'll remember what I can.
Q: I want you to read that entire thing, and give that to Mr. O'Connell.
A: John, do you want, do you want to read it first?
A: No. (silence)
A: Might we strike out this, I do not want a lawyer at this time?
GO: | OK.
A: And, I'm not relinquishing any of my rights, I still have all my rights to remain silent, I think that waiver of rights, is, is, is, uh--
Q: You can exercise your rights at any time.
A: Sure.
Q: I'll strike out this statement on willing to make a statement and answer questions, and we'll procede on a question by question basis.
A: I'll strike out this statement on willing to make a statement and answer questions, and we'll procede on a cies tens by question basis. @: | OB.
A: And, it was our understanding of the law that a refusal to answer any questions is not to be used against us in court. I think that will suffice. |
Q: You want to sign both copies? If you would, if you want--well, you can just sign one if you want, Ted. We'll have it copied if Mr. O'Connell wants a copy of that particular document he should have one.
Q: Ted, what is your full name?
A: Theodore Robert Bundy.
Q: And your date of birth?
A: 11/24/46.
Q: Where are you presently residing?
A: Salt Lake County Jail.
Q: And you understand your rights as we have explained them to you and as Mr. O'Connell has explained them to you?
A: Yes.
Q: All right. Ted, do you recall, uh, January of 1975?
A: Not with any specificity.
Q: Do you recall, uh, uh, where you were on or about January tenth, 1975? That would have been a Friday.
A: No, I do not. I mean I've been so, I really can't remember I think would be a more accurate statement. I have no records, I have no records before me, no diary, no other means of getting hold of that date or that period.
Q: OK, during January, 1975, Ted, were you ever in the state of Colorado?
A: Possible. Um--it's, it's possible. Uh, I cane say for sure, OK?
Q: If you were in the state of Colorado, do you know where you would have been?
A: Uh, in the general Rocky Mountain area, you know, like I don't know, recall names of the routes or the cities, uh, I don't know the area that well to say for sure.
Q: OK. Prior to January of 1975--
A: I don't think, if you tell him, as I understand it, uh, you got, uh, you got a gas record of some place during that period there, and maybe if you would give it to us that would help.
Q: Well, I'm gonna tell, I'm gonna show you a gas record here of, uh, it's dated January 12, 1975, and, uh, have you look at that. That's from, uh, a gas station in Glenwood Springs, Colorado. |
A: You have a map of Colorado?
Q: Yeah. Right here. We've got the whole state on it. This is your Denver area.
A: Is Glenwood, is Glenwood Springs on the highway there, goes by? I drove there to Aspen myself, as I recall it's about forty miles off the main highway.
Q: That's on the freeway, Colorado goes back to 70. | A: Is that where Glenwood Springs is?
Q: Yes. Do you recall making that purchase, Ted?
A: Well, not specifically. It appears to be my signature and, uh, I certainly wouldn't deny that it's my signature if you asked me, but I don't remember making that purchase. I made many purchases of gasoline and, uh, I don't remember that particular purchase.
Q: Do you remember, uh, uh, ever going to Glenwood Springs, Colorado, before January, 1975?
A: As a, you know as a name, I'd, I'd probably have to see it, I could probably say, well then I'd have been there before, the name, it's not something that I would, that stands out in my mind.
Q: Have you ever been to Aspen, Ted?
A: I recall clearly one time years ago first of all, I think it was '69 I was there, and I'm trying to remember if for sure I was there at any other time, in January or last year, and I'm not really sure of that. I know that at some point in time that I passed by Vail, but simply because it's on the main highway. But I can't say for sure. I'm not certain that I've been there.
Q: Then you don't specifically remember this, uh, gas credit card transaction that we showed you here in Glenwood Springs, Colorado? A;:\ No.
Q: You don't remember buying the gas or having your car serviced or anything?
A: Yeah.
Q: This charge on here was three dollars. I thought maybe that would help you.
A: Yeah, I, I just, I can't say what it was for. I just don't, it doesn't stand out in my mind as being anything special.
Q: Did you go, did, well you don't recall being in Aspen in January of last year, is that right? | {i
A: I can't, uh, I can't say for sure, no. I, I, I'm not denying it, but I can't, still can't recall.
Q: Ted, have you ever had any problems with relapses of memory, amnesia, or blackout spells, anything like that.
A: No.
Q: The reason I asked is because Aspen is rather a unique place. It's well-known all over the country. And it seems that if a person were going from Salt Lake City, if he'd ever traveled he would remember.
A: Well, I can't remember traveling anywhere in specific reason.
Q: Um. Do you, do you have any friends in the Colorado area, in the state of Colorado?
A: Uh, I don't believe so, not that I know of, I know people who are there, but there's no one that I, that, uh, I know is there right now, for sure.
Q: Old school friends, associates, members of your family, or anything like that?
A: There may be someone there, but I, I don't think-—-
Q: Not that you're aware of, of their presence.
Q: Ted, uh, do you recall this time period at all through January of 1975? I'm specifically, uh, concerned with the dates of the 10th of January, a Friday, the llth, a Saturday, the 12th, a Sunday, 13th, a Monday.
A: Uh, as, as dates, uh, and even as a general time period I can't recall the, you know, what I may have done on a certain day or anything like that. Uh; no, I don't.
Q: Do you remember making any other gas purchases in the State of Colorado? | Unfortunately, I only had the one copy, one receipt with me presently.
A: Um-hn.
Q: But I had two copies to indicate that you gassed your car in Glenwood Springs twice in this time period, Saturday and Sunday, the llth and 12th. Do you recall any of that?
A: You have a total of three.
Q: No, just, just two. I have one with me now that I've shown Ted, and I have one that I do not have with me.
A: Well, it, it's certainly possible. I had a Chevron card and, uh, if I was looking for a, a ‘station to gas up in, then I'd look for a Chevron station, but as to Glenwood Springs or any other location where there may have been , a Chevron or Standard Station along some route in Colorado which I traveled I, I can't remember specifically. |
Q: Have you ever skied in Aspen or anywhere around the Aspen-Glenwood Springs area? |
A: Years ago I went to Colorado and skied, I believe it was Aspen, I would, I'm pretty sure it was Aspen I skied at at the time. I haven't skied there in years.
Q: In Colorado? You can't recall exactly where in Colorado?
A: Well, I believe it was Aspen, but I said it was years ago. Could have been, I think I could, I'd get Aspen, Vail confused, but I believe, you know.
Q: Can you remember any names of hotels, bars, uh, ski runs, that you may have remembered here to tell me at this point.
A: No, no ski runs, I stayed there some time ago. I, the place I stayed was in a dormitory kind of setting, but I couldn't recall any more than that. It was kind of a mess. One occasion, I vaguely recall I stayed in a ski resort which may have been Aspen, it was just for a few days, I remember taking the bus, and, uh,
Q: The bus from where, Ted.
A: The bus from wherever I was staying to Denver to take an airplane back east to college. As I said, it was long ago, times and dates-—-uh, exactly where I skied or where I stayed I can't remember, I can't recall.
Q: You can't recall specifically being in, in Aspen or Glenwood Springs, Colorado?
A: No, not during that time. Not, not as, as names. Qs OK.
A: I could have been in those places but I don't recall.
Q: Now you say the signature on the gas credit card looks like yours?
A: That looks like mine. |
Q: It could be your signature. |
A: It probably is. I mean, I, my card was not stolen or missing during that period, and I did use my credit card during that period on a trip through that I may have taken to Colorado.
Q: What would you attribute the trip to? Why would you take such a trip from Salt Lake City? |
A: Well, mainly to get away from Salt Lake City. I was, uh, examinations, law school examinations were coming up during that time, and, uh, I just needed something, you know, a place to go to settle down, and the Colorado Rockies and the Rocky Mountain area seemed to be a nice objective at the time.
Q: Mm-hm. Do you recall even the name of the hotel, some like that, that you may have stayed?
A: Well, it's hard to separate the one or two trips I've, I made to Colorado last year. Uh, I remember having slept in my car a couple of occasions, simply because I didn't have much money.
Q: Mm-—-hn.
A: But I don't recall having, I don't recall any, any motel I stayed in. I think I stayed in one some time, but I, during that period. It was along the road, and I couldn't give you the name or even the general location of it, aside from the fact that it was somewhere, sometime during my trip, the best I can recall.
Q: Which trip are you speaking about, Ted?
A: Well, as I remember, there were a couple, one time I slept, took a northerly route and I came through Denver and then drove back. I don't really know which time that was, uh, I know I stayed in motels, uh, on the route in Denver.
Q: But not in anywhere near Aspen or Glenwood Springs?
A: Not that I can recall.
Q: Uh, when you take a trip like this, you know, tension from the exams, right,
A: Well, yeah, I guess, did sort of need to get away from Salt Lake City, and, uh, any kind of drive, and think, I wasn't really concerned with where I was going, as place or paying a lot of attention to just where I was going or what cities I passed, or, I had no objective place in mind.
Q: Did you go into any bars while you were on that trip in January of 1975?
A: It's possible.
Q: Did you eat in any restaurants that you can remember?
A: No, I, I was, I didn't have much money, so this was not something that I, you know, I, wasn't, wasn't a splurge or anything, so —- I didn't have a lot of money to spend, no, I didn't have enough money to eat in a restaurant. I remember carrying food with me. | |
Q: You carried food with you?
A: Well, I just, I would.
Q: I, I, I didn't understand you, you said food. As That's xvieht.
Q: Uh, what did you do on your trip?
A: On that particular trip--
Q: Yeah, in January, 1975.
A: I have trouble, uh, recalling that specific trip, separating it out from any other trip that I've had, mainly I just drove, and, uh, just drive off a Side road somewhere and, uh, come to a point where I didn't want to go any further, the road got too steep or something, and turned around and went back to the main road.
Q: Which main road would that have been?
A: Well, the highway, whatever the highway would be that I was one. There'd be side roads and there'd be the main highway, I'd always stick to that ' highway. I, I couldn't tell you the name of the highway, the number of the highway.
Q: You recall the, uh, unique signs, uh, motel name?
A: I'd be looking for a town name, the only thing which would attract me to a town would be the possible presence of a gas station.
Q: OK, uh, do-you recall anybody in that particular gas station you made the purchase, the one I showed you on the--
A: I, I really have no recollection of that purchase.
Q: And the purpose of your trip was just to drive, just to get out of Salt Lake.
A: Yeah, just to drive, relax, see some scenery, uh, it, uh, to get away from the pressure of law exams. I wasn't really prepared for them at that time as I recall. I just, uh, it's something to do to set my mind at ease and to think while I was driving, which is something I do quite a lot.
Q: Can you, do you recall, since you've been talking to me, whether or not you slept in your car on that particular trip?
A: I may have, I, uh, if it was any, anywhere from two to three days I probably did. |
Q: Yes, we're talking about January the 12th now, of 1975. It was a cold part of the year.
A: I can't say for sure, probably was, I can't say for sure where I would have stayed on that night, ‘cause I don't remember that day or that evening, January the 12th.
Q: Would you have been doing a lot of drinking at that time, Ted? nr
A: I rather doubt it, as I, ‘cause I was driving it wasn't something that I, drinking heavily, like to do a lot at that point in time anyway, because while driving, my primary motive as I say was to think and drinking is not compatible with that.
Q: Do you drink at all?
A: I do occasionally.
QO: Oh, sure.
A: I'll have a mixed drink.
Q: What do you generally drink when you drink?
A: (laugh) Well, I drink what, oh, I'll, you know, drink beer I guess.
Q: Your preference.
A: Schlitz.
Q: Hard liquor?
A: Normally only on social occasions.
Q: Any preference there? Are you a scotch drinker?
A: Whatever, whatever, whatever, whatever's available, you know, scotch, gin, vodka, anything that people are mixing up usually.
Q: Ted, evidently you talked to Detective Jerry Thompson of Salt Lake County Sheriff's Office, uh. Did you tell him that you had never been to the state of Colorado?
A: I don't believe so. I think there's some dispute as to what was said on those occasions, uh, as Detective Thompson was rumbling through my house and I was sitting there handcuffed, or just un-handcuffed. I don't think I was really thinking so much about the questions as, as, as the reason for them being there and turning my house upside down. So, uh, I really couldn't tell you what I said to Detective Thompson with any certainty.
Q: You're not sure whether you did not deny it or--
A: Well, OK, the fact is I have been to Colorado, I think this is, well there'd just be no reason why I'd tell another lie. Now there's a misunderstanding here that, there is no record made of what was said on either side, and, uh, I couldn't tell you what my response to him on a question was or any specific question he may have asked me or how I may have misinterpreted the question or how he may have misinterpreted the answer.
Q: How many times have you been in the state of Colorado that you can remember?
A: Two or three.
Q: Well, to the best of your knowledge, pinpoint time-wise, when would you have taken the first trip, Ted?
A: Well, I said, years ago, when I was, when I traveled there, flew in there, and then last year, last year some time.
Q: Would have the second trip.
A: Well, yes.
Q: Uh-huh. Did you make any trips after that one, in the car?
A: As I recall, later in that year I did.
Q: Mm-hm. One or two trips or more?
A: Maybe one, maybe two, I'm not sure.
Q: Do you remember being in Grand Junction, Colorado, last year?
A: I, I remember having passed through it looking for one route, occasionally looking for a gas station, because gas stations are few and far between in that area. So the only reason I remember Grand Junction is because it's out in the middle of nowhere and because I had to stop for a gas station.
Q: How many times do you think you've been in Grand Junction?
A: I couldn't tell you--at least once.
Q: Ted, on January the 12th, reference the gas purchase I've just shown you, OK, that's the one you said you believed was yours signature--
A: Yes.
Q: Uh, were you in the Snowmass at Aspen area, near Aspen, Colorado, on or about that time period?
A: Aspen's not quite Snowmass in relation to Aspen?
Q: It's a ski area near Aspen. . A: I can't recall, --, you know, the, the name doesn't mean anything to me.
Q: Uh, all right. Did you meet anyone on that trip?
A: Well, that, uh, again, it's hard to segregate out that particular trip. Now I mean obviously I met a gas station attendant, or I made a purchase of, I bought some groceries, I think I may have bought some cookies here and there, at a grocery store I may have stopped along the way. But I don't think I struck up a relationship with anyone.
Q: Did you meet any females on that trip, Ted? a: Wo.
Q: Hm? a: Wo.
Q: You met no women?
A: Well, you know, a clerk in a grocery store, uh. @: im gonna ask you real specifically, did you meet a young lady at Snowmass-at-Aspen, Colorado, on January the 12th, that's a Sunday, and it's in the evening. Did you meet a woman anywhere near that area on January the 12th of 1975? A? Wo, I diane.
QO: Hm?
A: Well, I mean, I don't recall having been to that area, but, but, if I'd met a young woman I would remember it, I would remember it now, but as I say my purpose in being there was to sort of get away, and be, be by myself and think.
Q: Were you by yourself here quite a bit of the period at that time on that trip?
A: Well, hm, on that particular trip?
Q: Yes, in January.
A: Well, in all probability I was, yes.
Q: Do, do you remember being alone or with someone on the trip?
A: Alone.
Q: Uh, OK. Uh, I'm gonna come out real point, I want a truthful answer to this.
A: Hm.
Q: On January the 12, 1975, did you kill that young lady up there near Snowmass-at-Aspen, Colorado?
A: I certainly didn't kill anyone anywhere, and I, wherever it was, I didn't kill anyone.
Q: But you don't recall any of the occurrances that happened on that trip, I mean——
A: Well, yeah, of course, I wasn't paying a great deal of attention to specific places or signposts or mileage traveling, uh, but one thing you would remember, I mean (laugh), it's certainly almost, I won't say that it's, it's, unfortunately it concerns you very much, but if you, if you meet someone you'd remember, especially if you start up a relationship with them, that was not my intention, nor did I do that. Uh, and as far as - question, did I kill anyone, I certainly didn't. It sounds absurd to say so, but you'll remember if you've done something like that, I certainly didn't.
Q: You don't, getting back to the trips, Ted, I hate to be repititious-—-
A: Go ahead.
Q: I just, I have a hard time, I travel somewhat myself, I have a hard time not recalling things, towns, faces, people, restaurants, uh, humorous situations that may have happened on, on a particular trip, or any trip. And I was wondering if you couldn't, you know, jog your memory in some degree to come up with more details about this trip to Colorado in January, 1975.
A: Well, I think I, now that we're down to specifics, I think that, I'll do my best to recall it. It hasn't, well, there've been numerous inferences | about Colorado cases, uh, that really haven't concerned me, only mostly, mainly because of the charge which I faced here in Salt Lake City, and to some degree, I consider that the, a lot of the reports which I received second hand, which were in the newspaper, many of them which came out while I was in jail, uh, more tactics by the police to harrass me or to build up public sentiment for the case here than anything else, and I'm not taking, what you got on me after that. So I haven't sat down, nor do I have the records at my disposal to, to pick my brains, and I'll, I'll do my best to come up with a, as you say, humorous reference or a significant occurrence that occurred to me, uh, that particular time when I was in Colorado.
Q: Do you remember on that trip whether that was the particular trip that you slept in your car or whether you stayed at a motel?
A: (Pause) One thing I do remember, vaguely, is sie ic was kinda, it was rather cold and I'm not sure, I remember debating whether or not to, to sleep in my car or sleep in, you know, in a motel. I remember debating with myself if I had enough money or not, but I don't recall exactly what I did.
Q: Did you ever have your car worked on on that particular trip?
A: Not to my recollection. Nothing pops out in my mind. The, the charge that's on there for a couple bucks I guess.
Q: Did you want to look at that again?
A: Um--(silence)
Q: I was just wondering, Ted, if you recall, there's a service charge for $3.00. Probably wouldn't need any gas.
A: OK, it's unreadable. If you'd seen the original-—- Q; Well,
A: Let's just say service. |
Q: I have an idea it's service. I just wondered if you could recall what it was for.
A: I don't know for, it, it could have been for, I don't know, it could have been a lot of things, but I don't recall specifically. It could, excuse me. But I remember that, uh, my car had a habit of losing, uh, a tail light going out or something like that, or, uh, but I don't recall if that was what it was for.
Q: Well, I'm sitting here listening to this thing, find it a little hard to accept, Ted, that you can't remember your trips that happened a little over | a year ago. Even if you had three trips to the state of Colorado or four trips to the state of Colorado, I think, uh, you know very well whether you went to Aspen or not. You know how I know whether you went to Aspen or Snowmass.
A: Uh, that's not a question, that's a, that's a statement. You want, you want, do you want to ask him questions or--, huh, say what you believe? There's guys over there, if you want to, there's guys over there just down the hall, uh, associates of Mr. Yokum, they, uh, do it all the time. They ‘drive to California for no reason other than to go down and see the ocean, that's all they can tell you about the trip, for a weekend.
Q: Well, I'm not talking about anybody else, I'm talking about right here in this room. Now-- .
A: Ask questions, don't, don't make statements, we agree--
Q: He can't he can't recall a trip that was just over a year. Now, whether he was in Aspen or--Why can't you? Why?
A: 'Cause it was some time ago, I wasn't there to go skiing or anything, but just to drive there, to pass through the area, to, you know, think, be by myself, to get away from the Salt Lake City area. Uh, I'm unwilling to make statements with any definition about something that I don't recall specifically.
A: May I point out that, uh, --- spider web, so, you know, odd statements, uh, questions that seem to be rather, uh, almost whimsical, and then it comes back in court that he's a liar because, uh, a year ago, uh, he put down the wrong license plate number on a, gave a gas station attendant the wrong license number. Uh, he's got all this stuff written down because, so he's careful not to make statements when he doesn't know what the answer is. Because he's learned the hard way.
Q: On the 12th of January, 1975, do you remember, uh, where you stayed when you stayed in Colorado on the 12th? ) A: On the 12th.
Q: When you were in Colorado, -----, you should remember whether you were in Glenwood Springs or Aspen.
A: I have what kind of, what day?
Q: Lt"s on a Sunday.
A: Sunday. (Pause) I can't remember specifically where I may have stayed on that might.
Q: Do you remember what day you left Salt Lake to go to that area?
A: (Pause) Well, we're talking about, we're talking about one gas receipt, you see that's on the 12th. I remember driving almost straight through but I can't remember whether I would have left early in the morning of the 12th or on the llth or exactly when--
Q: Do you remember when you got back?
A: I remember wanting to get back in time, uh, I don't know if it was this or not, on another occasion, I remember wanting to get back in time for school, but I don't know whether it was this or a later date. Whether it's, wanting to get back by Monday for classes or whether, Si, examination . that I was thinking about taking or exactly what it was I was trying to get back for.
Q: Well, you remember going to Aspen a long time ago, don't you?
A: Well, I remember going to an area, a ski resort in the Colorado area, I believe, almost certainly, much as I can recall at the time that it's Aspen, because it's the only principal that sticks out in my mind. I don't know where I stayed or how long I stayed, or how I got there or what towns I passed through.
Q: The, uh, the name Snowmass, does it ring a bait] to you? West Village? &: To.
Q: That doesn't ring a bell to you. How about the Wildwood Inn?
A: (Silence)
Q: What time did your class, what time did your class, classes start on Monday there in January, 1975.
A: As I say, during that-, during January, the third of January, I think throughout January was what they call study period for preparation for exams, and exams occur at the middle to the latter part of January. Now, as I say, I was thinking long and hard about that because I had missed considerable class periods during the year, and I wasn't really prepared for the examinations and it was sort of a, uh, a difficult period for me as to whether or not I should take the exam, or, um, or try to, to get an arrangement with professor to take them at a later point. And I don't know if I had an examination some time during the week, say, that followed the 12th or 13th, whatever, or not. But my wanting, on at least one occasion, knowing that I wanted to be back in Salt Lake before I lost more classes or an exam or something.
Q: Ted, on this particular instance, on January the 12th, you know, 11, 12, 13, can you recall whether you drove right in and right out or whether, you know, you may have decided to kick around the area for a while or what?
A: Right in and right out of--where?
Q: You know, Glenwood Springs, Aspen, or what.
A: I can remember having, say, stopped and gotten, got gas, and then maybe taken a, a side road for, for a short distance and then just trying to remember coming back to the main road, just sort of a nice exploratory kind of venture.
Q: Can you describe the road to me at all, Ted? What did it look like? What was on it?
A: Well, I, I, again, I don't know if it's this particular time or not. I had one road that turned off into, below the city there. There were some gas stations. I remember gas stations driving up, and it went by a lake, and then it went by the ski resort and I drove up there and stopped for a while, then drove back to the main road and got some more gas. Another road I can remember, it got really quite steep and very snowy and I just decided when I got to the summit that I'd turn around and come back down.
Q: Do you recall where in relationship to Glenwood Springs that would be? Or to Aspen? Or to any town in between?
A: Uh, (pause) no particularly, again, it was, I don't know if it was Glenwood Springs where these gas stations were or not. I, Glenwood Springs is a name, it's, it’s a name of some familiarity in a way but it's not something I can pinpoint. I still don't have, having reference to, with regard to a trip I may have taken there around the 12th of January.
Q: How many times have you been in Glenwood Springs?
A: Like I said, I don't, I can't really tell you, because the name is not associated with the place necessarily.
Q: You remember it at all, do you have a picture of it in your mind?
A: Of Glenwood Springs? Not as, again, not as a place, not as a place associated with, with the name. I mean it may appear in my mind as a road sign or, something else, but I, I can't tell you what Glenwood Springs looks like per se.
Q: Yeah, but would it be an old town, a new town, a, a, wood structures, brick structures, or whatever, you don't recall anything about the nature--
A: About the name of the town now. Probably if I were to drive by, I would recognize the place, but not, not as Glenwood Springs necessarily. I mean, it's a problem of not what towns, you know, I mean, I try to remember that I passed by, whether it be on the 12th or at some later date.
Q: Well, how big was that lake that you drove by?
A: Oh, big, um, it seemed to be considerably large for a lake in the middle of the mountains. Seemed to be a sort of newly built up place, but I can't tell you more than that, I just, that's the only thing that sticks in my mind.
Q: Where was the newly built up place in relationship to the lake? Do you remember?
A: Just as you passed along, the development seemed to be sort of, uh, a recreation-type, uh, there seemed to be some, some sort of development there.
Q: Do you remember the name of the lake at all, or the development area?
A: We.
Q: Can you remember Aspen at all, the time you were there way back, in 1969, 1968, can you remember, do you remember that at all?
A: The place that I st-, that I stayed, —_e it was, like I say, in all probability it was Aspen. The only thing I remember about it is that, the only thing that stands out in my mind from that particular occasion is, uh, probably (cut off--change of tape).
Q: Any of the people that you stayed with?
A: No, no, it was just a bunch of people I didn't know.
Q: How did you get there?
A: Can't remember if it was by bus or by car. Trying to think how I got out of Denver. (Pause) I have a vague recollection of, of, uh, renting a car with some other people, but I, that's about as far as I can--
Q: To get to possibly Aspen, if that's where you--
A: Aspen or, or Vail or whatever it was.
Q: Mn-hm. Uh, Aspen and Vail are, there's some differences there. Can you remember anything about them that may help us say whether or not you were in either one of those two places, the type of community, whether it was rambling or very old?
A: Seemed to be somewhat new, and, uh, and, uh, I think I remember about, I was there, vaguely remember, things about riding a bondola or something. I'm not absolutely sure.
Q: OK. OK, you think maybe you rented a car from Denver to get there. How did you get to Denver? on that particular trip?
A: Well, probably the only thing I remember is that I flew there.
Q: You flew there. Where did you fly from, Ted?
A: See, I think it was, I'm not sure, Seattle or San Francisco, wherever I was, I can't remember the place.
Q: Where were you living at the time?
A: I was, had been living in Seattle.
Q: Then you moved at that particular time, been moving about, is that why you can't remember where you flew from?
A: Well, yeah, because it was kind of a, a period in my life, I'd left college to sort of figure out where I wanted to go, and, uh, I can remember wanting to travel back east to see my, my relatives and, and, I'm not sure whether I went directly there via Denver or there via some friends in San Francisco.
Q: What time would that have been, about 1969? 1968?
A: Sixty-- (pause), probably some time in '69.
Q: Can you come up with the months, you know, since you left school, vaguely?
A: I don't know, that really stands out because it was kind of a traumatic _ deal leaving my, leaving school, and I think I went to autumn quarter, didn't go back for winter quarter, and it was sometime during winter quarter that, that I decided to, uh, you know, take some time off.
Q: Were you working at that time?
A: I don't remember.
Q: In January now, of 1975, we're coming up to January of '75, uh, were you working over this time period between the, wh, 10th, llth, 12th, 13th of January. |
A: Oh, uh, I rather doubt it, although I had a job in that period. I'm not absolutely sure, but I believe that I was trying to keep as much time open for study that I could, and that required not be-, that required not taking any jobs which would take away from the time I had to study. So, I, I, sometime in the winter of '75 I got a job on campus in a dormitory. I can't tell you exactly, I was, I was working weekends.
Q: You remember what time period that would be?
A: Sometime in the winter, that would be January and, uh, March, April, and through March and April.
Q: Ted, who was your supervisor when you worked on campus?
A: Well, I can't recall their name, the persons or persons names, it was a dorm, I got it through some student employment service on campus, and--
Q: Did you ever work for a janitor for--
A: Yeah, I worked as a janitor.
Q: Who was your boss then?
A: Uh, I can't remember his name, well, it was in a night, it was in the, the evening shift, and I don't remember the man's name.
Q: Who'd you work with?
A: Just other janitors. I, the only guy I remember was a guy we called the camel jockey. Uh, but that was last summer.
Q: Camel jockey? What do you mean camel jockey?
A: He was, he was Persian, he was from Persia and he used to, like, give camel jockey calls. Uh, and I think the name of the building I worked in was Orson-Spencer Hall.
Q: This up at the University here?
A: Mm-hm.
Q: That was which job ?
A: That was the janitorial job that I had after I was a security guard.
Q: You don't recall who you reported to possibly?
A: Well, I,
A: I've got it written down in my files.
A: I don't know, the name, the, you know, just, when I was working as a janitor is when, in October of '75 if, well, you know, is when this all came down, so all that is clouded by what's happened subsequently. Uh, when I, when I . left, just before I left there was a new man who was the supervisor.
Q: Um-hm.
A: And the man who was on there before, I can't remember a lot about that job, except that I just cleaned up, pushed the broom.
Q: That was some time during the winter periods of 1975.
A: No, no, I didn't mean to give that impression. Uh, I didn't have the janitorial job until late summer, autumn of '75.
Q: OK, OK, getting back to this particular time period here, uh, when you took your trip in January to Colorado, do you remember what kind of clothes you had?
A: (Pause) Well, not specifically. I mean I know the kind of clothes that I would probably wear. Uh, uh, jeans, uh, cowboy boots, uh, parka, uh, nothing, you know, special. That's what I would probably wear because that's what I normally wear when--
Q: Do you remember what you took with you?
A: Well, I didn't plan, I didn't plan an itinerary or, or pack an inventory so, I, I just sort of threw things in the car, things that keep me warn.
Q: Did you, uh, do you remember when you were in Grand Junction and gassed, if that was the same time that you were in Glenwood Springs or Aspen?
A: I couldn't, I couldn't say whether, say whether, Glenwood Springs connected in some way necessarily with the, the receipt on the 12th.
Q: Well, what I'm asking you is if on that trip you gassed in Grand Junction.
A: Well, it's not impossible, becasue as I say it seems to be a gas--
Q: You don't remember it.
A: Well, I, I, you know, I don't remember specifically having--
Q: Do you remember a town by the name of Dillon? At Tes
Q: Remember Golden? What about the name of Golden?
A: Name is, the name itself, has some familiarity but I don't remember the place or having been there.
Q: Now, there's some indication you might have taken, you know, three trips to Colorado, and, uh, one might have been in April. Can you remember if it was in April or what? You know April definitely are a different time of year than in January, would that help your memory any?
A: Possibly. You know, uh, remember one trip, there's, there was considerably less snow than there was on that earlier trip.
Q: That's all you remember about it.
A: (Pause) Specifically, I mean, the difference between the amount of snow or the fact that there, there was more green there than there was before, but nothing more than that.
Q: I have nothing more.
QO: ALL fight.
Q: I can't fight this loss of memory. Did you take anything with you to sleep in the car this January trip? Now that's what I'm talking about, January 10th, llth, 12th, 13th, do you remember whether you took anything to sleep in?
A: Probably just as a precautionary measure and because I didn't have much money and didn't anticipate staying over beyond just driving, I probably took a sleeping bag.
Q: And, how would you, how would you arrange your body in a Volkswagon?
A: Sleeping in a Volkswagon?
Q: Yeah. That's got to be a trick.
A: It is. It's very uncomfortable. Hmm. Slide this, all I do to sleep in my Volkswagon, you put the back seat down, slide the front seat forward as far, maybe even off the tracks, as far forward as you can, and then that Space in the back of the Volkswagon, while uncomfortable, is big enough to curl up in. Sometimes my feet would just dangle over the dropoff there, or I'd try to set the seat up in such a way that I could prop my feet (end of tape)
QO: Ted?
A: I, I'd rather doubt it because, you know, I, I just wouldn't want to take the seat out.
Q: Can you recall whether or not the seat was out on that particular trip?
A: I'd seriously doubt that I would take the seat out on that particular tEap.
Q: (cough) Excuse me. After talking with us, can you remember anything more about that January trip to Colorado?
A: (Sigh) Well, you know, among other things it would help to see a map, it would help to see, maybe, help to see another gas receipt. Like I say, you know, the specific times that I may have filled up by using cash or using gas receipt, it's just something I wasn't paying a lot of attention to. If I needed gas, another, if there wasn't a Chevron station I'd buy, use cash, and if there was a Chevron station I'd, I'd use my Chevron card, if I could find a cheaper station and had enough cash, even though there was a Chevron station, I would get the cheaper gas. That's about the only thing I could tell you.
Q: OK, you already answered, uh, Detective Baldridge's question in that you couldn't remember whether or not you gassed in Grand Junction on that particular trip or a different trip. Can you remember, in reference to gassing in Glenwood Springs, where you gassed before you gassed up there?
A: No, try that on me again.
Q: OK, in reference to the gas purchased here, in Glenwood Springs, where did you find gas just before that?
A: (Pause) Huh, ah, well, it, you know, I can't recall gas specifically then. I guess I, not knowing how far the next station was, whether it would be a Standard station or any station, I'd usually try to keep my tank full because I didn't know how long I'd have to do it. Uh, so I don't know when I filled my tank up.
A: How much was that purchase for?
Q: Uh, gasoline was two dollars, uh, two dollars and ten cents.
A: So, it wasn't filling up the tank, so I must have, you know, gotten somewhere before then, I don't, I can't say for sure. Sometimes I'd go and go and go and there wouldn't be a gas station, and I'd go until I was almost out of gas, and sometimes if I had a chance to get eed I didn't know what the next gas stop was I'd fill it, I'd just fill up the tank.
Q: Do you recall gassing after the gas in Glenwood Springs?
A: Whew! Oh, I wish. If I could pinpoint with any, in my mind, in my memory, any, at that specific gas purchase, I, I could probably help, help you out a little bit more, but I, I really can't. I don't, um, depends on which direction I was going, whether I was going home or, or, or continuing on, uh, I don't know.
Q: On your way home now, from the Glenwood Springs area, Aspen area, whatever, do you remember why you gassed on your way back? Maybe in Utah, or some place, or whether it was outside of Colorado or here?
A: Well, I don't, again I don't know whether it was on this particular trip, I can remember, as I say, Grand Junction, because it's out in the middle of nowhere, and you want to get gas because, you know, the stations are few and far between there. And, one place that, there's another place in Utah, Green, it's Green River, again, because it's out in the middle of nowhere. I filled up there. I have filled up there but I don't remember--
A: Crescent Junction, because it's a junction?
A: Huh?
A: Crescent Junction, cause it's the junction on the Green River?
A: I don't know what it is. There's a space up there, you cro--, I remember "cause there's a river there, I think it's Green River but I'm not sure. But I remember having filled up there, mainly, again, because it's, it's, you don't know where the next stop is.
Q: Can you remember whether or not you gassed there, uh, in reference to the January 12th trip?
A: I can't, no. I mean, I remember it, I've been through there and stopped for gas, at a place which may be Green River, it may be something else, because it seems to be a way-station out in the middle of the desert there, and uh, (pause) as to whether that was on that particular trip or, or one of the others I, I don't know.
Q: Do you remember being at Snowmass—at-Aspen, whether or not you were at Snowmass-at-—Aspen, Colorado?
A: I don't remember the name, uh, so I can't say.
Q: Do you remember the Wildwood Inn?
A: No, I don't remember the Wildwood Inn. I didn't stay at any such place. Uh, the name itself means nothing to me. (Pause) Snowmass-at-Aspen, because it has the name Aspen in it, you know, it means Aspen, but I don't recall having been to Aspen or, you know, or to, haven't stayed in any hotel or--.
Q: Did you have any trouble with your car on your trip, Ted?
A: Uh, on one, on one trip because there was a lot of snow, I don't know if it was this one or not, because the highway had a lot of wet snow on it, my car, Volkswagons in general and my car in particular, got a lot of wet, gets a lot of moisture in the engine compartment and it tends to run badly, and I think on one occasion I just stopped beside the side of the road and let it dry out and cool down and, uh, until it was running on all four, all four cylinders, but on that, on that trip or whether it was another one, I don't know which one it was. .
Q: Did you happen to have it worked on at all? Call a gas station and try to get you, or something?
A: Ah, no, I, it was a problem I had experienced before so it was something I knew that it, if given enough time it would cool up the engine and dry itself out, it would be OK. Uh, I don't believe that, I certainly wasn't towed. Uh, I can usually work on my own car if its, if I have the part that's necessary or whatever's necessary.
Q: D'you ever need chains for that car?
A: Yeah, I have chains for it.
Q: Did you have, uh, weight--
A: Well I very rarely need chains on the car because Volkswagons are just a superior car in the snow, you just, uh, have very little trouble with them, and, uh, even on the snowiest of nights I'd rather drive with my regular tires than tire chains. It, it's just such a hassle getting them on and off.
Q: Have you ever used chains?
A: (Pause) I bought those chains, oh, I can't, it was sometime after I got here, after I got to Salt Lake City. I may have put ‘em on once or twice.
Q: Did you use them, did you use them on the Colorado trip, Ted?
A: (Pause) As I recall, I, you know, I rather doubt it. I can't say for sure, but I mean, that's unlikely that I did just because I prefer not driving around with chains on and, it, uh, under normal circumstances I can usually get around without chains. So I expect, not likely, I would have them for am emergency occurrence if I got in a ditch and couldn't get out and had to put them on and dig myself out, but I rather doubt, I did have snow tires on the car at the time too, so they seem to help in those conditions.
Q: Where'd you buy the chains for that little car?
A: Here in Salt Lake. I bought them in one of the auto part places here in Salt Lake.
Q: Don't remember which one? |
A: Somewhere out on State Street. There's a lot of auto part, auto part places I guess. I just remember on one snowy night going in and buying them, but that's the best I can do.
Q: OK. Did you have any shot at, uh, the month or anything like that?
A: Oh! The reason I re-, the only reason I remember buying the chains is because my girl friend was coming in for Christmas, so, and I was afraid that I'd get stuck in the snow and not be able to pick her up at the airport. "Cause it's a big event when she comes. She came down for Christmas, so I, I bought them in around Christmas of '73.
Q: Seventy-?
A: Oh, pardon me, 74.
Q: OK. I just wanted to make sure. OK.
A: The chains should still be with the car.
Q: Uh, have you got anything else, Bill?
OG: No.
A: OK. Just before this interview began, you were being questioned by Mr. Don Hall, of the Adult Probation and Parole Department?
A: Hm. Yes, I was.
Q: How long did he question you?
A: Oh, an hour. I don't know, forty-five minutes. I did not have a watch on at the time, and in this jail seemed to go rather strangely.
Q: Was he also, uh, was he asking you to recall things back to your grade school years?
A: Uh, huh.
Q: How do you shut this thing off, Bill?